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   9 2014-03-10 00:07:46 <jcrubino> where are the magic network values found in the reference codebase?
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  12 2014-03-10 00:10:44 <sipa> chainparams.cpp
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  16 2014-03-10 00:17:32 <jcrubino> thanks sipa
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  41 2014-03-10 00:34:54 <ilovebitcoinfr> hi! i have a simple question about bitcoin source: where do i fing the code setting the halving time (number of blocks)? thanks
  42 2014-03-10 00:34:59 <ilovebitcoinfr> find
  43 2014-03-10 00:35:21 <flammit> chainparams.cpp
  44 2014-03-10 00:35:25 <ilovebitcoinfr> thanks
  45 2014-03-10 00:36:06 <flammit> popular answer recently
  46 2014-03-10 00:36:44 <ilovebitcoinfr> nSubsidyHalvingInterval = 210000;  ?
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  48 2014-03-10 00:37:27 <ilovebitcoinfr> i guess nSubsidyHalvingInterval = 150; is for testing?
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  50 2014-03-10 00:43:44 TheButterZone has joined
  51 2014-03-10 00:44:03 <TheButterZone> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=508687.0 Looking for a developer for a transaction visualiser
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  63 2014-03-10 00:52:46 <TheSeven> mhanne: how are you generating that database?
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  94 2014-03-10 01:24:00 <ilovebitcoinfr> i know it's against etiquette to dare speak about altcoins here but litecoin doesn't have a chainparams.ccp does anybody know where their halving time is encoded? thanks
  95 2014-03-10 01:24:02 vtitov has joined
  96 2014-03-10 01:25:06 <ilovebitcoinfr> (and nobody is answering in the litecoin-dev forum )
  97 2014-03-10 01:25:21 <ilovebitcoinfr> channel not forum, sorry
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 114 2014-03-10 01:50:52 <comboy> TheSeven: https://github.com/lian/bitcoin-ruby
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 116 2014-03-10 01:52:13 <porquilho> gmaxwell
 117 2014-03-10 01:52:20 <porquilho> i was banned from mtgox-chat
 118 2014-03-10 01:52:32 <anton000> lol
 119 2014-03-10 01:53:43 <owowo> h320.
 120 2014-03-10 01:54:09 <sipa> ?
 121 2014-03-10 01:54:25 <owowo> ;;leet hero
 122 2014-03-10 01:54:25 <gribble> h3r0
 123 2014-03-10 01:55:10 <anton000> omg trolls
 124 2014-03-10 01:58:59 <maaku> ilovebitcoinfr: it should be in main.cpp, in a function called 'GetBlockSubsidy' or somesuch
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 242 2014-03-10 03:56:44 skinnkavaj has joined
 243 2014-03-10 03:56:58 <skinnkavaj> Wanna learn about p2pool
 244 2014-03-10 03:57:28 buggin_out1 has joined
 245 2014-03-10 03:58:08 <skinnkavaj> How is it decentralized when there is someone that host the p2pool?
 246 2014-03-10 03:58:36 <gmaxwell> there is no one that hosts the p2pool
 247 2014-03-10 03:58:39 phantomspark has joined
 248 2014-03-10 03:58:49 <gmaxwell> its software you run for yourself.
 249 2014-03-10 03:59:16 <gmaxwell> (there are people who allow third parties to use theirs, but thats an inefficient way to use it that defeats the point)
 250 2014-03-10 03:59:28 <skinnkavaj> But there are nodes?
 251 2014-03-10 03:59:30 <skinnkavaj> https://litecoin.info/Mining_pool_comparison
 252 2014-03-10 03:59:33 _ImI_ has quit (Quit: _ImI_)
 253 2014-03-10 03:59:43 <skinnkavaj> So if using a p2pool node like in that list
 254 2014-03-10 03:59:47 <gmaxwell> I'm afraid you've confused this with the litecoin channel.
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 257 2014-03-10 04:00:04 <skinnkavaj> This has nothing to do with litecoin
 258 2014-03-10 04:00:09 <gmaxwell> if you're using one of those you might well get ripped off, a lot of them just pocket all the work.
 259 2014-03-10 04:00:11 <skinnkavaj> I only have seen that kind of pools there
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 262 2014-03-10 04:00:32 <skinnkavaj> There is a guy advocating to use p2pool for litecoin and he runs a node
 263 2014-03-10 04:00:36 <skinnkavaj> Does that ruin the whole point?
 264 2014-03-10 04:00:40 <skinnkavaj> When he is incharge?
 265 2014-03-10 04:00:48 <gmaxwell> he's probably just another scammer.
 266 2014-03-10 04:01:01 <skinnkavaj> I don't think this particular guy is, he is very active in the community in general
 267 2014-03-10 04:01:06 <gmaxwell> This is entirely offtopic for the channel.
 268 2014-03-10 04:01:10 <skinnkavaj> Writes articles about why people should use p2pool
 269 2014-03-10 04:01:20 JackH has quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds)
 270 2014-03-10 04:01:21 <skinnkavaj> Have he misunderstood the whole concept?
 271 2014-03-10 04:01:35 <skinnkavaj> I assume p2poools for litecoin and bitcoin work in the same way.
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 273 2014-03-10 04:02:12 <gmaxwell> Nope, I don't know of anyone that uses a remote p2pool, it's a bad idea— you get a high stale rate, and a lot of them have just been fly by night frauds.
 274 2014-03-10 04:02:36 <skinnkavaj> How should you use p2pool then?
 275 2014-03-10 04:02:51 <devrandom> in BIP-32, there's no relationship between m/0 and m/0', correct?
 276 2014-03-10 04:02:58 <devrandom> also, I don't see any name given to the prime children (m/0' m/1') to distinguish them from the non-prime ones (m/0, m/1)... is there a standard term for them?
 277 2014-03-10 04:03:28 <gmaxwell> ... by using p2pool, derp. in structions here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/P2Pool or http://p2pool.in/
 278 2014-03-10 04:04:11 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: With p2pool do you have to wait until you solve a block yourself?
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 281 2014-03-10 04:05:30 <gmaxwell> devrandom: IIRC thats just noting if you're using the public or private derrivation.
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 284 2014-03-10 04:05:41 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: no that would be solo mining.
 285 2014-03-10 04:05:57 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: please take the bitcoin / p2pool 101 questions to #bitcoin or #p2pool
 286 2014-03-10 04:06:02 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: Why isn't bitcoin built in with 1 click mining directly via p2pool?
 287 2014-03-10 04:06:17 <gmaxwell> (and please read the webpages I linked you to, since they do explain the basis stuff)
 288 2014-03-10 04:06:19 askmike has joined
 289 2014-03-10 04:06:42 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: Wouldn't bitcoin be more centralized if bitcoin-qt offer this function directly in the client
 290 2014-03-10 04:06:47 <skinnkavaj> decentralized*
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 292 2014-03-10 04:08:21 <beachandbytes> what library do most of you use, Im fairly language agnostic
 293 2014-03-10 04:08:23 <devrandom> gmaxwell: hmmm... I thought that 1' was equivalent to 0x80000001
 294 2014-03-10 04:08:39 <richardkiss> devrandom: you're correct, m/0 and m/0' are different
 295 2014-03-10 04:08:51 <devrandom> oh, right, we're staying the same thing
 296 2014-03-10 04:09:09 <richardkiss> the algorithm is different for children >= 0x80000000
 297 2014-03-10 04:09:13 <devrandom> right
 298 2014-03-10 04:10:00 <devrandom> okay, so 0' is "the zeroth private-derived child"
 299 2014-03-10 04:10:09 <devrandom> and 0 is "the zeroth public-derived child"
 300 2014-03-10 04:10:32 <devrandom> and there's no mathematical relationship between them
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 302 2014-03-10 04:10:52 <gmaxwell> You're confusing hardened with public and private derrivation.
 303 2014-03-10 04:11:47 <gmaxwell> The low bit keys (non-hardened) can be derrived either from the private key data (giving you the private key), or exclusively from the public data.
 304 2014-03-10 04:12:16 <wyager> devrandom: That's how I'd put it. I think you're saying the same thing again
 305 2014-03-10 04:12:26 <devrandom> OK
 306 2014-03-10 04:12:37 <devrandom> gmaxwell: it seems that hardened == private derivation
 307 2014-03-10 04:12:40 <wyager> But rather, I'd say "publically-derivable" and "privately-derivable"
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 309 2014-03-10 04:12:59 <devrandom> gmaxwell: BIP32 says
 310 2014-03-10 04:13:00 <devrandom> Check whether the highest bit (0x80000000) of i is set:
 311 2014-03-10 04:13:00 <devrandom> If 1, private derivation is used: let I = HMAC-SHA512(Key = cpar, Data = 0x00 || kpar || i) [Note:] If 0, public derivation is used: let I = HMAC-SHA512(Key = cpar, Data = χ(kpar*G) || i)
 312 2014-03-10 04:13:14 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
 313 2014-03-10 04:13:26 <devrandom> so the high bit is referred to as triggering "private derivation"
 314 2014-03-10 04:13:33 <gmaxwell> No. jesus
 315 2014-03-10 04:13:46 <wyager> You can choose to derive the "publicly-derivable" ones from the master public key, but this is not possible for "privately-derivable" ones
 316 2014-03-10 04:13:47 <gmaxwell> Here, sipa rewrote it to avoid this common confusion: https://github.com/sipa/bips/blob/bip32update/bip-0032.mediawiki
 317 2014-03-10 04:14:05 <devrandom> reading
 318 2014-03-10 04:14:38 <wyager> gmaxwell: What is devrandom saying that is totally wrong? I think he gets it, but is just using different terminology
 319 2014-03-10 04:15:09 <devrandom> I was looking at https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki
 320 2014-03-10 04:15:22 <gmaxwell> wyager: 21:01 < devrandom> in BIP-32, there's no relationship between m/0 and m/0', correct?
 321 2014-03-10 04:15:30 <gmaxwell> wyager: indicates that he's confused.
 322 2014-03-10 04:15:30 <devrandom> that one uses "private derivation" where sipa's is using "hardened"
 323 2014-03-10 04:15:59 <devrandom> I'm happy to use "hardened", but hope that sipa's version will actually replace the official BIP
 324 2014-03-10 04:16:00 <gmaxwell> devrandom: Yes, the new document is a rewrite of the language to eliminate this common source of confusion with respect to the overloading of public/private.
 325 2014-03-10 04:16:37 <wyager> That was a good choice. People get mixed up with public/private in the context of asymmetric crypto
 326 2014-03-10 04:16:53 <gmaxwell> I don't care what language you use, you need to actually understand what this is doing and why. If you release software while you're not able to see that mathmatical relationship between m/0' and m/0 you will get people robbed.
 327 2014-03-10 04:17:20 <gmaxwell> Sipa is the primary author of BIP-32, the update is just based on in-field expirence.
 328 2014-03-10 04:17:39 <gmaxwell> It will replace it when he's finally happy with the feedback on it.
 329 2014-03-10 04:17:41 <anton000> its like releasing a calculator, but u dont know why 1 +1 =2 lol
 330 2014-03-10 04:17:57 <gmaxwell> Please feel free to provide additional feedback.
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 334 2014-03-10 04:18:23 <devrandom> gmaxwell: hang on, are you saying there's a mathematical relationship between m/0 and m/0' ?
 335 2014-03-10 04:18:35 <gmaxwell> anton000: well the fact that the original document was confusing on this point was apparent. Sometimes that happens when everyone who was looking at something already understood what it was doing.
 336 2014-03-10 04:18:53 <devrandom> I don't see how there can be a relationship, given that the hmac'ed data is different
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 338 2014-03-10 04:19:34 <wyager> devrandom: The relationship is that the new private key is always a function of the old private key. It's just not a simple relationship
 339 2014-03-10 04:19:40 phantomspark has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 340 2014-03-10 04:20:28 <devrandom> well, yes, each child is derived from its parent
 341 2014-03-10 04:20:33 <gmaxwell> devrandom: I really suggest you refer to the new document. The public derrivation is genrating the public keys for the private keys generated by the private function. (except for hardened keys (where the high-bit is set) where the public derrivation doesn't exist at all)
 342 2014-03-10 04:20:49 <devrandom> yes, I understand that
 343 2014-03-10 04:21:26 <devrandom> just saying that the pubkey for m/0 cannot be transformed by a third party into the pubkey for m/0' without knowing m
 344 2014-03-10 04:21:29 <devrandom> and vice versa
 345 2014-03-10 04:21:39 <sipa> devrandom: correct
 346 2014-03-10 04:21:50 <sipa> gmaxwell: heh, that wasn't merged yet?
 347 2014-03-10 04:22:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: pulls waiting on you!
 348 2014-03-10 04:22:27 <sipa> oh, right, the reason for separating internal and external subvhains was never explained
 349 2014-03-10 04:22:33 <gmaxwell> (wumpus asked if you were going to updated it again)
 350 2014-03-10 04:22:43 <sipa> though that can be done separately i guess
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 353 2014-03-10 04:24:54 <gmaxwell> devrandom: (in the new syntax) m/1 and m/1h  are indeed 'unrelated', I thought you were saying derrivation through CKD() and CKD'() was unrelated.
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 355 2014-03-10 04:25:41 <sipa> which are called CKDpriv and CKDpub now
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 363 2014-03-10 04:30:14 <devrandom> gmaxwell: okay, we're on the same page
 364 2014-03-10 04:30:36 <gmaxwell> hurrah!
 365 2014-03-10 04:30:38 <gmaxwell> \O/
 366 2014-03-10 04:30:46 <gmaxwell> the new document really is a lot less confusion prone.
 367 2014-03-10 04:31:09 <gmaxwell> Sorry about that. Should have beta tested the prior version on someone who didn't understand it already from years of discussion. :)
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 369 2014-03-10 04:32:33 <devrandom> happy to be such a beta tester in the future
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 371 2014-03-10 04:33:30 <wyager> We need to keep a control group away from the mailing list and any non-BIP literature, so we can use them as comprehension guinea pigs :p
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 373 2014-03-10 04:33:41 <gmaxwell> well thats not hard to find then. :P
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 375 2014-03-10 04:33:58 <gmaxwell> the problem is getting the CG to feed from the trough when its time.
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 421 2014-03-10 05:14:56 <beachandbytes> What's the most secure library for coding with bitcoin? I don't want to reinvent the wheel if I don't have to, I know, c, c++ , C#, and java, a little bit of python
 422 2014-03-10 05:15:04 vegard has joined
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 424 2014-03-10 05:16:24 <wyager> There are a few, depending on what you want to do. You can use libbitcoin, Electrum's python libraries, conformal's libraries, and some others
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 429 2014-03-10 05:23:48 <QuantumQrack> Is there a problem with unconfirmed transactions?
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 447 2014-03-10 05:39:16 <Luke-Jr> beachandbytes: what parts of bitcoin?
 448 2014-03-10 05:39:43 <beachandbytes> mainly just transactions
 449 2014-03-10 05:39:50 adam3us has joined
 450 2014-03-10 05:40:14 <beachandbytes> but im fairly new to the space so would like to keep my options open and not have to switch midstream
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 462 2014-03-10 05:55:28 <beachandbytes> I think Ill try electrum's, it seems to be actively developed. Is libbitcoin still active?
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 480 2014-03-10 06:14:15 <lnovy> isn't that unconfirmed transaction count unusual?
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 571 2014-03-10 07:55:55 <zacm> lnovy, nothing a decision on which fork is valid won't fix
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 577 2014-03-10 08:09:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;leet bitcoin-dev
 578 2014-03-10 08:09:01 <gribble> b!+c0!n-d3v
 579 2014-03-10 08:09:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Heh
 580 2014-03-10 08:09:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;help leet
 581 2014-03-10 08:09:13 <gribble> (leet <text>) -- Returns the l33tspeak version of <text>
 582 2014-03-10 08:09:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, it's nice to see a new person getting into gbuilding
 583 2014-03-10 08:10:50 askmike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 584 2014-03-10 08:10:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, wait a minute
 585 2014-03-10 08:11:04 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|facepalms
 586 2014-03-10 08:11:17 <Belxjander> gbuilding?
 587 2014-03-10 08:11:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I just realized that where he gets the source doesn't affect what gets used
 588 2014-03-10 08:11:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Because gitian fetches the repo itself
 589 2014-03-10 08:11:53 <wumpus> it only affects what descriptors are used
 590 2014-03-10 08:11:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Belxjander: see doc/release-process.md
 591 2014-03-10 08:11:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: right
 592 2014-03-10 08:12:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Gah.
 593 2014-03-10 08:12:24 <wumpus> you just need to provide the right tag to gbuild, that's all
 594 2014-03-10 08:12:25 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|goes to fix his comment
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 649 2014-03-10 09:09:11 <wumpus> can anyone ACK https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3696 , seems useful to have some measure of rescan progress in debug.log
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 683 2014-03-10 09:53:19 <CodeShar_> going over the old getwork stuff - any reason the last 64 bits of the data encode the length in bits rather than bytes or nibbles? I mean, it's not like you have bit-level granularity in the hex output anyhow
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 686 2014-03-10 09:54:09 <CodeShark> going over the old getwork stuff - any reason the last 64 bits of the data encode the length in bits rather than bytes or nibbles? I mean, it's not like you have bit-level granularity in the hex output anyhow
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 689 2014-03-10 09:56:40 <CodeShark> seems to just add one more unnecessary validation condition for the caller
 690 2014-03-10 09:57:33 <CodeShark> or the need to add an extra unnecessary rule defining behavior for nonmultiples of 4
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 692 2014-03-10 09:57:53 <CodeShark> i.e. truncate division
 693 2014-03-10 09:57:54 <wumpus> getwork? no one is using that anymore AFAIK
 694 2014-03-10 09:58:04 <wumpus> there's been talk of deprecating it
 695 2014-03-10 09:58:08 <CodeShark> not even on the pool server backend?
 696 2014-03-10 09:58:42 <wumpus> no, everyone uses getblocktemplate
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 698 2014-03-10 09:59:34 <CodeShark> ok, the getwork API was silly from many angles
 699 2014-03-10 09:59:45 <CodeShark> just wondering why anyone would ever design it like that to begin with :p
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 703 2014-03-10 10:00:08 <CodeShark> the 32-bit endianness thing, then storing the size in bits when the output is in hex
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 709 2014-03-10 10:01:59 <CodeShark> then making the bits field be the last few bytes of the data field
 710 2014-03-10 10:02:05 <CodeShark> anyhow...
 711 2014-03-10 10:02:07 <CodeShark> lol
 712 2014-03-10 10:02:08 <wumpus> it is generally agreed it was crazy :p
 713 2014-03-10 10:02:47 <wumpus> for satoshi seemed to be a good idea at the time, but there is no guessing to what he intended with it
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 715 2014-03-10 10:04:54 <CodeShark> so that API dates back to satoshi?
 716 2014-03-10 10:05:15 <wumpus> there may be some changes later but I suppose it's how he did mining
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 732 2014-03-10 10:20:30 <CodeShark> since when was it decided that the coinbase transaction was the place we should always add extra data to blocks if needed?
 733 2014-03-10 10:20:37 <CodeShark> it seems like such a hideous hack
 734 2014-03-10 10:21:16 <CodeShark> it IS such a hideous hack
 735 2014-03-10 10:23:27 <TD> *shrug* the input field would be unused otherwise
 736 2014-03-10 10:23:37 <TD> satoshi suggested it, fwiw
 737 2014-03-10 10:24:51 <CodeShark> it means anyone handling block headers must also deal with all the merkle tree logic and intricate details of transaction formatting in order to add or read any extra data
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 739 2014-03-10 10:26:21 <CodeShark> and we have this silly 100 byte hard limit
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 743 2014-03-10 10:28:22 <CodeShark> what we should really do is add another 32 byte field to block headers to serve as either a nonce or as a merkle root for arbtrary name:value pairs
 744 2014-03-10 10:28:40 <CodeShark> and not mix that with the transaction logix
 745 2014-03-10 10:28:42 <CodeShark> and not mix that with the transaction logic
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 748 2014-03-10 10:30:08 <CodeShark> validating nodes would not need to store all that data
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 750 2014-03-10 10:32:08 <CodeShark> and the height field should really be part of the header itself
 751 2014-03-10 10:32:30 <CodeShark> an extra few bytes won't kill anyone - and would make it far simpler to access that data
 752 2014-03-10 10:32:43 <CodeShark> especially for SPV
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 754 2014-03-10 10:33:34 <CodeShark> coinbase transaction input could be used for miner-specific stuff like self-identification
 755 2014-03-10 10:33:49 <CodeShark> in other words, data nobody else needs to process the block
 756 2014-03-10 10:34:16 <airbreather> CodeShark: do you also propose an alternative to ensure coinbase txid uniqueness?
 757 2014-03-10 10:34:54 <CodeShark> airbreather: yeah, that might not be a bad idea either
 758 2014-03-10 10:35:08 <airbreather> currently, "encode height in codebase data" does that.
 759 2014-03-10 10:35:25 <CodeShark> yeah, I guess it does...
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 761 2014-03-10 10:37:05 <airbreather> and before version 2 blocks, there were a couple of instances where coinbase txids were in fact duplicated, see blocks #91722/91880 and #91812/#91842
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 767 2014-03-10 10:38:37 <CodeShark> we could continue putting the height into the coinbase - but it would be nice to also have the height available in the block header itself
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 771 2014-03-10 10:39:25 <TD> the most widely used SPV implementation doesn't have any problem with checking merkle branches for the coinbase and reading it
 772 2014-03-10 10:39:29 <TD> so it's hardly a big deal
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 774 2014-03-10 10:40:01 <CodeShark> that's besides the point - it ups the difficulty for implementing it
 775 2014-03-10 10:40:11 <CodeShark> I would like to see MANY implementations
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 778 2014-03-10 10:41:59 <CodeShark> wait…how do you request that the coinbase transaction be included in flitered blocks?
 779 2014-03-10 10:42:06 <CodeShark> I must be missing something
 780 2014-03-10 10:42:38 <CodeShark> also, what if you want to do a headers-only initial sync?
 781 2014-03-10 10:42:55 <CodeShark> getheaders doesn't provide that information
 782 2014-03-10 10:43:13 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, changing the rule would be impossible now
 783 2014-03-10 10:43:16 <airbreather> it gives you prev-block-hash, and genesis block is height 0, right?
 784 2014-03-10 10:43:24 <CodeShark> it would not be impossible
 785 2014-03-10 10:43:34 <CodeShark> do we really want to continue building hack upon hack?
 786 2014-03-10 10:43:52 <CodeShark> shouldn't we devise a mechanism by which such changes could be made?
 787 2014-03-10 10:43:55 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, i believe you would need to build 1000 block long chain to change the height rule
 788 2014-03-10 10:43:56 <CodeShark> an upgrade protocol for the network?
 789 2014-03-10 10:44:05 <phantomcircuit> actually no
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 791 2014-03-10 10:44:15 <phantomcircuit> there is no way to change that rule without it being a hard protocol change
 792 2014-03-10 10:44:35 <airbreather> so it's built like an induction proof: height := (prevblockhash) -> if prevblockhash == genesisblock.hash { 1 } else { blocks[prevblockhash].height + 1 }
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 794 2014-03-10 10:45:23 <CodeShark> yes, you compute the height yourself for getheaders - so that's a nonissue
 795 2014-03-10 10:45:33 <CodeShark> but the filtered block including the coinbase?
 796 2014-03-10 10:45:55 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, the filtered block doesn't need to include the coinbase
 797 2014-03-10 10:46:19 <phantomcircuit> the height rule invalidates the block exactly the same way invalid transactions in the block would
 798 2014-03-10 10:46:26 <airbreather> I wouldn't be surprised to find out that bitcoinj includes the coinbase of each block no matter what the active filter says
 799 2014-03-10 10:47:07 <phantomcircuit> im not sure it matters though since that should always be a trivial amount of additional information
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 801 2014-03-10 10:47:18 <airbreather> that's why I wouldn't be surprised :-P
 802 2014-03-10 10:47:21 <phantomcircuit> well actually it's maybe 3-4x as much info as the headers
 803 2014-03-10 10:47:23 <phantomcircuit> nvm then
 804 2014-03-10 10:48:13 <airbreather> I interpreted "trivial" as in engineering, not "trivial" as in science
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 813 2014-03-10 10:48:53 <phantomcircuit> either way an spv client can just drop them
 814 2014-03-10 10:49:16 <CodeShark> wouldn't it require a filter option?
 815 2014-03-10 10:49:20 <airbreather> a.k.a. for something like P2Pool, 14k per block
 816 2014-03-10 10:49:24 <airbreather> Yeah like in BIP0037
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 818 2014-03-10 10:50:33 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, the coinbase is the only place the additional data could be put while maintaining backwards compatiblity
 819 2014-03-10 10:50:45 <CodeShark> yes, because of a poor initial design
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 821 2014-03-10 10:50:52 <airbreather> *shrugs* can't go back in time
 822 2014-03-10 10:50:53 <CodeShark> why not fix that design so we never have this problem again?
 823 2014-03-10 10:51:02 <airbreather> Because hard-forks are not to be taken lightly
 824 2014-03-10 10:51:16 <airbreather> it requires everyone to upgrade
 825 2014-03-10 10:51:23 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, i'll code it, you convince literally every single person using bitcoin to approve the change
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 828 2014-03-10 10:51:30 <phantomcircuit> deal? :P
 829 2014-03-10 10:51:32 <CodeShark> lol
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 831 2014-03-10 10:52:07 <airbreather> It's not getting any easier as time goes on, true, but there needs to be significant value-added in order for the costs to outweight the benefits
 832 2014-03-10 10:52:16 <airbreather> err
 833 2014-03-10 10:52:20 <airbreather> scratch that, reverse it
 834 2014-03-10 10:53:03 <Eliel> phantomcircuit: these kinds of changes can be done but when the changes are mostly cosmetic, it's probably not worth it. Basically, you'd have to set a date (block height), preferably two years in the future, on which all versions will switch to using the new format.
 835 2014-03-10 10:53:44 <Eliel> that way people's natural habit of updating their software will have dealt with the issue.
 836 2014-03-10 10:53:53 <Eliel> it's just very slow
 837 2014-03-10 10:53:57 <airbreather> thus "every single person" -- at the "activation" date, people who haven't updated will be left behind
 838 2014-03-10 10:54:33 <Eliel> yes, they'll stop getting blocks if miners have all updated
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 840 2014-03-10 10:54:58 <airbreather> so at that point such nodes become excluded from the "every single person" population -- that's a cost of doing the upgrade
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 842 2014-03-10 10:55:11 <airbreather> so yeah as you said, "mostly cosmetic" not worth it
 843 2014-03-10 10:55:25 <phantomcircuit> Eliel, people are generally speaking terrible about upgrading
 844 2014-03-10 10:55:33 <TD> CodeShark: you could match on one of the strings that is usually put in the coinbase input like /P2SH/ - but bcj doesn't do that because it'd be pointless, currently
 845 2014-03-10 10:55:49 <TD> of all bitcoin's problems this seems like the least of them
 846 2014-03-10 10:55:56 <TD> ok, bbl
 847 2014-03-10 10:55:59 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, oh also you cant change the block header format
 848 2014-03-10 10:56:03 <TD> gonna go find a coffee shop to work from
 849 2014-03-10 10:56:08 <Eliel> phantomcircuit: I'm well aware of that.
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 851 2014-03-10 10:56:13 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, i'll give you a minute to figure out why
 852 2014-03-10 10:56:24 <airbreather> oh yeah, because miners would have to change their mining software, right?
 853 2014-03-10 10:56:57 <phantomcircuit> software?
 854 2014-03-10 10:57:14 <phantomcircuit> more like replace tens of millions of dollars worth of hardware
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 856 2014-03-10 10:57:26 <phantomcircuit> ie you would be run out of town if you even tried
 857 2014-03-10 10:57:28 <airbreather> yeah hardware
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 862 2014-03-10 10:58:20 <Eliel> phantomcircuit: are you sure about that? do the ASICs really care about header format?
 863 2014-03-10 10:58:42 <airbreather> because ASIC hardware needs deep knowlege of the Bitcoin protocol to try more than 4G nonces per round-trip
 864 2014-03-10 10:58:44 <phantomcircuit> Eliel, yes i am sure about that
 865 2014-03-10 10:58:52 <phantomcircuit> airbreather, uh no
 866 2014-03-10 10:59:13 <phantomcircuit> airbreather, sha256 is 32 bytes wide
 867 2014-03-10 10:59:20 <airbreather> s/deep knowledge/header-format-specific assumptions/
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 869 2014-03-10 10:59:42 <phantomcircuit> but if you build the circuit for sha256d then you do ~1.5 sha256 operations instead of 2 full ones
 870 2014-03-10 10:59:56 <Eliel> software miners at least worked by using a midstate and then just changed the last part, that is, nonce and did just the last step again.
 871 2014-03-10 11:00:14 <Eliel> I'd be surprised if ASICs don't use midstate too
 872 2014-03-10 11:00:18 <phantomcircuit> plug you can avoid doing about half of an sha256 cycle by assuming the final block is 16 bytes
 873 2014-03-10 11:00:34 <airbreather> ahh sneaky
 874 2014-03-10 11:00:59 <Eliel> if so, you could extend the headers by multiples of 32 bytes.
 875 2014-03-10 11:01:09 <phantomcircuit> Eliel, they also change the time value in the hardware
 876 2014-03-10 11:01:23 <CodeShark> annoying it got built this way to begin with :p
 877 2014-03-10 11:01:32 <CodeShark> hardware should only care about opaque data and a nonce
 878 2014-03-10 11:01:37 <airbreather> no
 879 2014-03-10 11:01:37 <CodeShark> and a target
 880 2014-03-10 11:01:59 <airbreather> hardware should use whatever it can to go as fast as it can
 881 2014-03-10 11:02:07 <CodeShark> why?
 882 2014-03-10 11:02:15 <airbreather> because if not, competitors will
 883 2014-03-10 11:02:15 <CodeShark> we're not trying to optimize mining performance
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 885 2014-03-10 11:02:35 <CodeShark> well, hardware manufacturers are
 886 2014-03-10 11:02:55 <CodeShark> point is, the protocol itself could be done in such a way that mining hardware needs no deep knowledge of the protocol at all
 887 2014-03-10 11:02:57 <airbreather> if it were designed differently, there would be different sets of assumptions that lead to valid optimization
 888 2014-03-10 11:03:30 <Eliel> the update of the time field is not strictly necessary. It'd be enough to do it on the host. However, if majority of ASICs do that anyway, it's a problem.
 889 2014-03-10 11:03:47 <CodeShark> hardware is given some arbitrary data and a target, it finds a nonce. and the nonce field is long enough that overflows are unlikely
 890 2014-03-10 11:04:03 <CodeShark> no need to know a damn thing about the underlying header format
 891 2014-03-10 11:04:04 <airbreather> nonce is a 4-byte field
 892 2014-03-10 11:04:08 <CodeShark> unfortunately
 893 2014-03-10 11:04:11 <airbreather> that's 4G of nonces
 894 2014-03-10 11:04:13 <CodeShark> 4-bytes is miniscule
 895 2014-03-10 11:04:17 <CodeShark> that is another serious design wart
 896 2014-03-10 11:04:32 <airbreather> so how many nonces "ought to be enough for anyone"?
 897 2014-03-10 11:04:57 <Eliel> ah wait, but the time field is near the end too
 898 2014-03-10 11:04:58 <CodeShark> well, considering the target is 32 bytes...
 899 2014-03-10 11:05:16 <Eliel> it's in the last 12 bytes
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 901 2014-03-10 11:05:28 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, hmm *maybe* im wrong
 902 2014-03-10 11:05:59 <phantomcircuit> it seems like you would be able to maintain hardware compatibility if you inserted 32 bytes before the timestamp field
 903 2014-03-10 11:06:21 <phantomcircuit> currently what it sees is 4 bytes of the merkle root, timestamp, bits, nonce
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 906 2014-03-10 11:07:08 <airbreather> oh and above, when I've said "4G", I've been meaning "2^32", not "4 GB"
 907 2014-03-10 11:07:11 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, regardless the coinbase needs to have the height in it to avoid duplicate txids
 908 2014-03-10 11:07:45 <phantomcircuit> Eliel, it's impossible to use just the nonce with the cutting edge chips
 909 2014-03-10 11:08:02 <phantomcircuit> 500 Gh/s per chip
 910 2014-03-10 11:08:06 <phantomcircuit> 125 Gh/s per die
 911 2014-03-10 11:08:09 <phantomcircuit> (core)
 912 2014-03-10 11:08:41 <Eliel> also, even if extending the headers were impossible, it'd be possible to tweak the merkle root. Make it not a merkle root but rather the hash of the merkleroot _and_ the extra data.
 913 2014-03-10 11:08:42 <airbreather> phantomcircuit: BIP30 forces us to reject blocks with txids that clash with existing txids with unspent outputs anyway, so blocks with duplicate coinbase txids would just be rejected anyway
 914 2014-03-10 11:08:48 <phantomcircuit> that means you're overflowing the nonce 31 times per second
 915 2014-03-10 11:09:15 <airbreather> unless the old coinbase were fully spent, in which case it's a non-problem anyway
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 917 2014-03-10 11:09:41 <phantomcircuit> airbreather, except implementing that rule in any other way requires a full node to keep a complete list of all transactions ever
 918 2014-03-10 11:09:41 <airbreather> (though confusing)
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 920 2014-03-10 11:10:07 <phantomcircuit> oh unspent
 921 2014-03-10 11:10:12 <Eliel> phantomcircuit: ah, true, the host would have to be generating new data constantly to compensate for that. And the miner would need a buffer memory.
 922 2014-03-10 11:10:12 <phantomcircuit> it's irrelevant
 923 2014-03-10 11:10:25 <Eliel> I guess it's cheaper to do in hardware on the ASIC
 924 2014-03-10 11:10:29 <phantomcircuit> the height check in the coinbase is a hard protocol rule that cannot be removed now
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 926 2014-03-10 11:11:07 <CodeShark> the height check could be considered somewhat cosmetic - far more fundamental is the fact that the nonce overflows so easily
 927 2014-03-10 11:11:22 <CodeShark> what's the smallest possible target?
 928 2014-03-10 11:11:31 <airbreather> phantomcircuit: CodeShark is looking at greenfield design of the protocol, so I'm trying to play along
 929 2014-03-10 11:11:48 <airbreather> CodeShark: smallest possible target is 0 :-D
 930 2014-03-10 11:12:24 <CodeShark> yes, airbreather, I don't want to get hung up on current design limitations and have that prevent us from coming up with something far better - we can assess the practicality of changes once we have ideas
 931 2014-03-10 11:12:51 <CodeShark> I just don't like this attitude of "oh, we already did it this other way and can't change that now"
 932 2014-03-10 11:13:02 <CodeShark> I agree that not all changes are worth it
 933 2014-03-10 11:13:34 <CodeShark> and some might well be completely impractical to push out in bitcoin as it is
 934 2014-03-10 11:14:04 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, iirc gmaxwell has a pretty extensive list of things he would like to see in a hardfork
 935 2014-03-10 11:14:13 <airbreather> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist
 936 2014-03-10 11:14:28 <airbreather> also https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas
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 939 2014-03-10 11:16:47 <CodeShark> I guess what bugs me a bit is that some of these ideas are really, really awesome - why aren't we just building another p2p network that uses them? :)
 940 2014-03-10 11:17:03 <airbreather> time, money, expertise
 941 2014-03-10 11:17:29 <CodeShark> all that could be had
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 943 2014-03-10 11:17:36 <airbreather> also prove that nobody is
 944 2014-03-10 11:18:18 <airbreather> #bitcoin-wizards is really the place for that kind of discussion anyway
 945 2014-03-10 11:18:22 <airbreather> according to the topic
 946 2014-03-10 11:18:53 <CodeShark> a whole bunch of ideas get discussed - but when it comes to putting stuff into practice, we're always stuck with the satoshi client :p
 947 2014-03-10 11:19:02 <stonecoldpat> yeah, wizard channel is about research / future cool ideas
 948 2014-03-10 11:19:36 <stonecoldpat> the thing is though - alot of new ideas are untested and shouldnt be put into the client until there is enough confidence surrounding it
 949 2014-03-10 11:19:50 <airbreather> hey I'm trying -- it's a lot of work to implement a new client from scratch!
 950 2014-03-10 11:19:59 <CodeShark> fine, let's create a fork in which we can test some of these ideas
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 952 2014-03-10 11:22:12 <airbreather> that's happening constantly -- PPCoin is one that's particularly interesting to me
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 959 2014-03-10 11:26:31 <Ad0> if you have a service that takes a % from the incoming payment to your hot wallet, and passes the main portion to the destination, can you do all the operations at once, or do you have to wait for a certian number of confirmations?
 960 2014-03-10 11:27:14 <Ad0> like what do tumblers do ?
 961 2014-03-10 11:27:51 <Happzz> you can do something like what satoshidice do, they send the received coins along with their coins
 962 2014-03-10 11:27:59 <Happzz> so it fails if the original transaction to them fails eventually
 963 2014-03-10 11:28:12 <Happzz> most devs will advice against that, because it spams the block chain
 964 2014-03-10 11:29:05 <airbreather> Ad0, tell us what you're trying to do, not how you're trying to do it
 965 2014-03-10 11:29:38 <Ad0> airbreather: it's what I am trying to do :)
 966 2014-03-10 11:29:58 <Ad0> I want to take an incoming payment, take a % of it, and then pass it on to another address
 967 2014-03-10 11:30:18 <Ad0> basically
 968 2014-03-10 11:30:21 <Ad0> a typical fee thing
 969 2014-03-10 11:30:29 <airbreather> "all the operations at once" suggests you're trying to do some sort of batching?
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 971 2014-03-10 11:30:53 <Ad0> when I get a payment event, that is a payment with 0 confirmations
 972 2014-03-10 11:31:04 <Ad0> can I pass those same coins on instantly ?
 973 2014-03-10 11:31:20 <airbreather> ahh -- yes.  like Happzz said.
 974 2014-03-10 11:31:22 <Ad0> minus the percent
 975 2014-03-10 11:32:07 <waxwing> i am testing M of N P2SH. I found 3 of 4 works fine via electrum but 4 of 5 doesnt. I found that 4 of 7 can be sent via Eligius but 6  of 10 doesnt. Eligius aside, what is the actual limit for M and N for normal miners?
 976 2014-03-10 11:32:08 <airbreather> you *could* implement some sort of batching to save on transaction fees, though.
 977 2014-03-10 11:32:30 <Ad0> I want to do it in a proper, non-spamming way :)
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 979 2014-03-10 11:32:59 <Ad0> "they send the received coins along with their coins" - well what I would do is to send less coins
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 982 2014-03-10 11:35:12 <airbreather> depending on timing requirements, you could combine the operations for all the confirmed coins.  I would recommend against combining unconfirmed coins into one transaction
 983 2014-03-10 11:35:34 <Happzz> Ad0 you take the input, and send it to 2 different addresses. if you make sure to use the same input you received, you should (you gotta verify this with pros around here, i only know this in theory) be safe
 984 2014-03-10 11:35:52 <Happzz> because if the original tx fails for some reason, your second tx would fail as you would be trying to send coins you didn't have in first place
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 990 2014-03-10 11:41:47 <CodeShark> in gmaxwell's wishlist, there's "Switch to block hashing algorithm secure against block withholding attacks." - how would that work in practice?
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 993 2014-03-10 11:45:39 <airbreather> CodeShark: http://arxiv.org/abs/1112.4980 section 6.2.3, "Oblivious Shares"
 994 2014-03-10 11:46:30 <airbreather> in essence, miners don't know whether or not a share is a valid block
 995 2014-03-10 11:47:35 <airbreather> s/is a valid block/meets the target for the block itself/
 996 2014-03-10 11:49:48 <Ad0> thanks Happzz
 997 2014-03-10 11:49:50 <Ad0> and airbreather
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 999 2014-03-10 11:50:46 <Ad0> does bitcoind support SCRIPT?
1000 2014-03-10 11:52:18 <CodeShark> ?
1001 2014-03-10 11:52:26 <CodeShark> you mean scrypt the hashing algorithm?
1002 2014-03-10 11:52:44 <CodeShark> or is SCRIPT some nongeneric term for something I'm unaware of?
1003 2014-03-10 11:53:08 <xeroc> script is also the name of the "programming" language used for transactions
1004 2014-03-10 11:53:19 <xeroc> all these OP_foobar commands ..
1005 2014-03-10 11:53:42 <xeroc>  https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
1006 2014-03-10 11:54:09 AmThatsMe has joined
1007 2014-03-10 11:54:19 <AmThatsMe> hi everyone !
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1011 2014-03-10 11:56:23 <AmThatsMe> i'm writing a comprehensive test suite for the rpc wallet. some of the roc calls retrieve balance information of addresses or the wallet. What is the best approach for testing those roc calls ? mock the wallet object ? something else ?
1012 2014-03-10 11:56:26 <Ad0> CodeShark: no I mean logics in the blockchain
1013 2014-03-10 11:56:39 <AmThatsMe> i'm writing a comprehensive test suite for the rpc wallet. some of the roc calls retrieve balance information of addresses or the wallet. What is the best approach for testing those roc calls ? mock the wallet object ? something else ?
1014 2014-03-10 11:56:48 <Ad0> you can embed logics in your transaction afaik
1015 2014-03-10 11:57:11 <Ad0> AmThatsMe: maybe make a fake RPC response layer in your client code
1016 2014-03-10 11:57:23 <Ad0> you mock the RPC client
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1019 2014-03-10 12:00:11 <AmThatsMe> i should mock the wallet itself no ? the best test would be to load some kind of balance into an address and see that roc command retrieves the correct amount, no ?
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1021 2014-03-10 12:00:57 <wumpus> AmThatsMe: regtest mode
1022 2014-03-10 12:01:18 <wumpus> AmThatsMe: see qa/rpc-tests in the bitcoin git for some examples
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1026 2014-03-10 12:04:41 <Ad0> depends if you wanna unit test or not AmThatsMe
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1028 2014-03-10 12:07:25 <CodeShark> airbreather: got it - it wasn't clear whether "block withholding" referred to this pool attack, to the more recent paper by Eyal and Sirer on selfish mining http://arxiv.org/abs/1311.0243
1029 2014-03-10 12:07:57 <CodeShark> or perhaps just withholding blocks when relaying to peers
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1032 2014-03-10 12:09:01 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, that paper is so annoying
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1035 2014-03-10 12:10:07 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell
1036 2014-03-10 12:10:19 <skinnkavaj> Do you know any hardware wallets? Other than Trezor
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1070 2014-03-10 12:36:38 <Ad0> is working against testnet "authentic"?
1071 2014-03-10 12:36:42 <AmThatsMe> wumpus: is there any documentation about regrets ?
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1077 2014-03-10 12:39:12 <wumpus> AmThatsMe: not that I know of, in any case, regtest is just like testnet except that you can 'fast forward' any number of blocks very quickly
1078 2014-03-10 12:39:21 <wumpus> AmThatsMe: by using setgenerate true <numblocks>
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1080 2014-03-10 12:39:32 <wumpus> AmThatsMe: I suggest looking at the examples in the path I mentioned
1081 2014-03-10 12:40:05 <AmThatsMe> wumpus: thanks, i will
1082 2014-03-10 12:40:22 <wumpus> it's very easy to create a few wallets with coins in them, and unlike the real testnet it's private and fully reproducible
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1102 2014-03-10 12:59:13 <aynstein> 4p2pool.org - I would love some feedback if anyone has a second (its not a pool its a nonprofit hosted p2pool service) I cant spell and i grammer bad so any pointers is appreciated ....
1103 2014-03-10 12:59:23 <aynstein> www.4p2pool.org
1104 2014-03-10 13:00:45 <TD> isn't that kind of a contradiction?
1105 2014-03-10 13:00:56 <TD> if you don't run your own bitcoin core node, you may as well just use a regular centralised pool
1106 2014-03-10 13:00:59 <aynstein> yea
1107 2014-03-10 13:01:04 <TD> a "hosted p2pool" doesn't make any sense
1108 2014-03-10 13:01:25 <aynstein> its meant to be a better then but not perfect solution
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1110 2014-03-10 13:01:39 <gavinandresen> wumpus: happy Monday!  Windows code-signing certificate process FINALLY finished, what needs doing for a 0.9.0rc3 release?
1111 2014-03-10 13:02:33 <CodeShark> what's involved in that process, gavin?
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1113 2014-03-10 13:03:14 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: code-signing certificate acquisition process? It is like a SSL certificate granting process, but more strict
1114 2014-03-10 13:03:31 <gavinandresen> (Foundation has to prove that it is the entity requesting the certificate)
1115 2014-03-10 13:03:38 <CodeShark> I see
1116 2014-03-10 13:05:36 <TD> hi there
1117 2014-03-10 13:05:50 <TD> more strict than SSL? yow
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1119 2014-03-10 13:06:17 <CodeShark> how much does that cost?
1120 2014-03-10 13:06:25 <wumpus> gavinandresen: AFAIK no critical issues with rc2, I've cherry-picked a few small GUI and documentation issues in the 0.9.0 branch
1121 2014-03-10 13:06:34 <TD> we need the mining code change
1122 2014-03-10 13:06:47 <TD> i didn't do it yet, sorry. was going to work on that after triaging my own pull req queue for bcj.
1123 2014-03-10 13:06:51 <wumpus> gavinandresen: I'm fine with doing a rc3 or even final  today
1124 2014-03-10 13:06:57 <CodeShark> and is a windows code-signing certificate the same thing as a Microsoft Authenticode?
1125 2014-03-10 13:07:27 <gavinandresen> I agree with TD, mining code need to agree with the relaying code or Bad Things are likely to happen.
1126 2014-03-10 13:07:38 <wumpus> ok, no idea about that
1127 2014-03-10 13:07:39 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: yes, windows code-signing is Authenticode
1128 2014-03-10 13:08:33 <wumpus> then that needs to be done + changelog update + transifex pull
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1130 2014-03-10 13:08:40 <gavinandresen> TD: do you have time today to change CreateBlock to Do The Right Thing ?
1131 2014-03-10 13:08:45 <wumpus> I'll do the latter two
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1133 2014-03-10 13:08:57 <TD> i should do
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1135 2014-03-10 13:09:09 <gavinandresen> TD: let me know if you don't, I can make time to do that
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1161 2014-03-10 13:41:23 <wumpus> does this mining change warrant another rc?
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1163 2014-03-10 13:42:27 <wumpus> or should the next release we roll be 0.9.0 final?
1164 2014-03-10 13:43:03 <wumpus> (editing the release notes right now, if unsure I'll just call it rc3)
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1168 2014-03-10 13:45:25 <wumpus> btw can anyone review/ack https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3696, it's useful to have some measure of rescan progress in the log
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1194 2014-03-10 14:10:25 <TD> wumpus: do you know if bdb usage has changed recently?
1195 2014-03-10 14:10:45 <TD> wumpus: my local bitcoin core no longer builds, due to missing x86_64 version of Db::verify
1196 2014-03-10 14:11:01 <TD> i don't recall changing anything about my build env lately though
1197 2014-03-10 14:12:07 <TD> also configure passes fine
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1204 2014-03-10 14:19:46 <wumpus> I don't think so
1205 2014-03-10 14:20:10 <wumpus> (apart from the autotools switch)
1206 2014-03-10 14:20:46 <wumpus> I've also not heard any other reports of new bdb build problems
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1208 2014-03-10 14:22:23 <TD> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3228
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1210 2014-03-10 14:23:49 <wumpus> that issue is 4 months old, not what I'd count under recently
1211 2014-03-10 14:24:00 <TD> comment from one guy is it's happening to him, from a month ago
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1213 2014-03-10 14:24:52 <wumpus> at the end it seems to be about boost, not berkelydb 
1214 2014-03-10 14:25:08 <TD> the issue as filed is about bdb
1215 2014-03-10 14:25:14 <TD> but 32/64 bit mismatches seem to be a recurring issue
1216 2014-03-10 14:26:04 <TD> i'll try reinstalling some of the dependencies. sigh.
1217 2014-03-10 14:26:10 <TD> this is the sort of time that makes me hate C++
1218 2014-03-10 14:26:16 <wumpus> well I know about boost lib/include path issues (can be fixed by providing explicit --with-boost-xxx=), but nothing about bdb
1219 2014-03-10 14:26:23 <Apocalyptic> TD, blame boost
1220 2014-03-10 14:26:35 <TD> it's not just a boost issue in my case. bdb is clearly also a problem
1221 2014-03-10 14:26:38 <wumpus> I remember jgarzik was seeing /usr/lib being added to the library path for some vague reason
1222 2014-03-10 14:26:40 <TD> or just "libraries"
1223 2014-03-10 14:26:48 <wumpus> may be the 'guess where boost is' logic as well
1224 2014-03-10 14:27:19 <wumpus> yes Apocalyptic, boost is not a good citizen here, it doesn't provide pkgconfig files and has a very strange convention with library names varying from version to version
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1227 2014-03-10 14:27:50 <wumpus> the m4 scripts do what they can to out-guess boost and find it, but that still fails in many cases so you need to provide the boost libdir yourself
1228 2014-03-10 14:28:10 <TD> looks like the root cause is apple changing their C++ std lib to one that's not binary compatible
1229 2014-03-10 14:28:15 <TD> super
1230 2014-03-10 14:28:20 <TD> fucking gpl v3
1231 2014-03-10 14:28:54 <wumpus> (this can cause 32/64 bit conflicts, and for example, on ARM it guesses the name of the architecture-specific lib directory wrong)
1232 2014-03-10 14:29:00 <wumpus> oh, another issue
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1236 2014-03-10 14:29:46 <TD> it feels like about half the time i do a git pull and try to rebuild, the build fails for some obscure reason that takes ages to debug
1237 2014-03-10 14:29:58 <TD> i wish we just imported the source of all the libraries we needed
1238 2014-03-10 14:30:14 <wumpus> gitian does that
1239 2014-03-10 14:30:53 <wumpus> it works very well now for linux and windows, but unfortunately not for macosx yet
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1241 2014-03-10 14:31:23 <TD> i mean, import into the git source tree
1242 2014-03-10 14:31:26 <TD> no messing with dependencies
1243 2014-03-10 14:31:28 <wumpus> someone was working on that, but apple made it really difficult
1244 2014-03-10 14:31:31 <wumpus> oh please not
1245 2014-03-10 14:31:53 <wumpus> just because dependency management is broken in your OS doesn't mean everyone has to suffer :p
1246 2014-03-10 14:32:17 <TD> dependency management is broken on every OS. I have never experienced a C++ build system that wasn't horribly fragile and broke in ways that required toolchain gurus to figure out
1247 2014-03-10 14:32:20 <wumpus> we already include leveldb, that's more than enough external dependencies to keep track of
1248 2014-03-10 14:32:33 <TD> yes, and leveldb never gives me problems. i rest my case :)
1249 2014-03-10 14:33:02 <wumpus> well if people start importing bdb in the git repository I'll run for the hills
1250 2014-03-10 14:33:17 petcat has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1251 2014-03-10 14:33:29 <TD> why?
1252 2014-03-10 14:33:42 _ImI_ has quit (Quit: _ImI_)
1253 2014-03-10 14:33:45 <TD> the amount of time wasted on stupid dependency issues is phenomenal. just look at the bug tracker
1254 2014-03-10 14:33:55 <TD> the systems in place to try and handle them clearly don't work well enough and never have
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1259 2014-03-10 14:34:09 <TD> i mean you said yourself, we have a giant pile of code in configure that tries to "guess" where boost might have put itself
1260 2014-03-10 14:34:14 <wumpus> better, build with --disable-wallet
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1263 2014-03-10 14:34:24 <TD> that code represents hours wasted that could have been spent on features
1264 2014-03-10 14:34:30 <wumpus> I want to get rid of code, not include more
1265 2014-03-10 14:34:38 <TD> if i disabled a feature every time it gave build problems i'd have no features left
1266 2014-03-10 14:35:09 <TD> why? there's no reason why reducing the amount of code in git is inherently better
1267 2014-03-10 14:35:41 <TD> bandwidth and disk space are cheap compared to people's time
1268 2014-03-10 14:35:50 <wumpus> it isn't about bandwidth or disk space
1269 2014-03-10 14:36:05 <Apocalyptic> ^
1270 2014-03-10 14:36:10 <wumpus> we need a new wallet format that doesn't use bdb or another database
1271 2014-03-10 14:36:10 <Apocalyptic> i'm with wumpus on this one
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1273 2014-03-10 14:36:27 <TD> then what's it about?
1274 2014-03-10 14:36:35 <TD> it'd just be some other dependency that craps out and wastes hours of time. boost or whatever
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1276 2014-03-10 14:37:11 <wumpus> so you are seriously proposing to include boost in the bitcoin build?
1277 2014-03-10 14:37:22 <TD> how about every non-trivial dependency?
1278 2014-03-10 14:37:24 <wumpus> ... I'm done here
1279 2014-03-10 14:37:49 <TD> if dependency management in the native code world actually worked reliably i wouldn't care of course, but it doesn't
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1281 2014-03-10 14:38:09 <TD> you haven't even presented one argument as to why i'm wrong. is this a religious issue or something?
1282 2014-03-10 14:38:20 <jcorgan> TD: I don't deny that you experience what you do, but I have a different experience; I routinely build from git and have *never* run into dependency issues.  So, let's not extrapolate from too small a sample.
1283 2014-03-10 14:38:39 <wumpus> well imagine what would happen if every open source project included all its dependencies
1284 2014-03-10 14:38:52 <TD> never? not even when new ones are added or versions change? i bet that's not true. i've compiled thousands of projects over the last 10 years on all kinds of platforms
1285 2014-03-10 14:38:54 <wumpus> yeahhhh let's include qt as well
1286 2014-03-10 14:38:57 <wumpus> and boost
1287 2014-03-10 14:39:01 <wumpus> this is going to be fun
1288 2014-03-10 14:39:06 <wumpus> bigger is better isn't it?
1289 2014-03-10 14:39:14 <TD> if every open source project included their dependencies, i'd probably have a few months of my life back
1290 2014-03-10 14:39:20 <wumpus> never mind that we have gitian, which already builds all the dependencies for you
1291 2014-03-10 14:39:42 <wumpus> so it's all about you isn't it?
1292 2014-03-10 14:39:51 <TD> hardly. like i said ,go look at stack overflow, or the issue tracker
1293 2014-03-10 14:39:59 <jcorgan> TD: i'm referring to bitcoin, and even the switch to autotools went pretty painlessly for me
1294 2014-03-10 14:40:01 <TD> there are tons of bugs that boil down to "i tried to build and got bizarre errors i can't figure out"
1295 2014-03-10 14:40:02 <wumpus> to be honest I've never had any problems building bitcoin
1296 2014-03-10 14:40:17 <wumpus> more so after switching to autotools
1297 2014-03-10 14:40:36 <wumpus> sure, there are some bugs in the autotools scripts still, especially on mac, but your 'solution' makes no sense at all
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1300 2014-03-10 14:41:22 <jcorgan> i am on Linux, where I suspect most of you devs are, so I'd expect issues to be discovered and fixed quickly
1301 2014-03-10 14:41:23 <wumpus> just use gitian
1302 2014-03-10 14:41:29 <TD> the bugs are in code that wouldn't need to exist
1303 2014-03-10 14:41:40 <TD> as you pointed out, gitian does not even work on one of the major platforms that are out there
1304 2014-03-10 14:41:48 <jcorgan> if i were on Mac perhaps it would be different
1305 2014-03-10 14:41:54 <wumpus> then fix gitian to work on that
1306 2014-03-10 14:41:59 <wumpus> deterministic builds are needed anyway
1307 2014-03-10 14:42:03 <TD> jcorgan: yeah, unless you're on any distro other than ubuntu, or an old version of your distro, or one that's newer than the majority, etc
1308 2014-03-10 14:42:17 <stonecoldpat> if i rememebr right, building bitcoin on mac is an absolute headache, and its impossible on windows
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1313 2014-03-10 14:45:24 <TD> building software on linux is hardly reliable or painless either. heck even apt routinely gives up and requires absurd backflips to fix (or just blowing away and reinstalling, windows 95 style)
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1315 2014-03-10 14:45:41 <wumpus> never had any of those problems TD
1316 2014-03-10 14:45:44 <wumpus> maybe it's just you
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1319 2014-03-10 14:46:35 <wumpus> last time I had a problem with installing a package was with slackware in 98 or so, there was a script that effectively removed everything on the harddisk, but never with apt/ubuntu
1320 2014-03-10 14:48:04 <uiop> wumpus: yum++
1321 2014-03-10 14:48:07 <sipa> ooh, 0.9 final?
1322 2014-03-10 14:48:11 <wumpus> and  yes we should get rid of the berkeleydb 4.8 dependency, but the build is not nearly as bad as you make it sound
1323 2014-03-10 14:48:51 <wumpus> sipa: dunno
1324 2014-03-10 14:49:01 <sipa> i saw a tag?
1325 2014-03-10 14:49:04 <wumpus> oh?
1326 2014-03-10 14:49:17 <sipa> ah, never mind
1327 2014-03-10 14:49:35 <TD> stonecoldpat: with autotools and the general linux dependency management culture being a big part of the reason for that
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1346 2014-03-10 14:50:11 <uiop> the bdb4.8 dep causes problems on rhel/centos6 (has 4.7) (although, the sense i got from configure.ac was that 4.8 was needed for portability reasons?)
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1348 2014-03-10 14:50:20 <TD> hmm, how do I tell make to print the commands it's running?
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1351 2014-03-10 14:50:31 <jcorgan> I manage the GNU Radio code base (200k+ LOC), which has a huge number of dependencies, and we've had to work out a lot of cross-platform issues.  Yet, we're good now on many flavors of Linux, Mac, Windows, and embedded ARM distros.
1352 2014-03-10 14:50:36 <TD> i'm not saying it's impossible, i'm saying it requires a ton of work and is incredibly flaky. as you point out, you had to work out a lot of issues.
1353 2014-03-10 14:50:36 <TD> if your dependency was "a c++ compiler" there'd still be issues just because of how C++ is, but there'd have been a lot fewer
1354 2014-03-10 14:50:40 <TD> as a side effect, it'd also discourage debian from packaging your binaries: win win! :)
1355 2014-03-10 14:50:41 <jcorgan> lol
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1357 2014-03-10 14:50:53 <wumpus> there is enough wrong about the linux autotools culture, but if any single git repository contained all the dependencies as well it would not be better
1358 2014-03-10 14:51:05 <wumpus> also: recursively?
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1361 2014-03-10 14:51:19 <TD> obviously a lot of people are hitting this kind of pain: https://www.google.ch/search?q=Undefined+symbols+for+architecture+x86_64+db%3A%3Averify
1362 2014-03-10 14:51:21 samson_ has joined
1363 2014-03-10 14:51:21 <wumpus> maybe we should also all include the libstdc++ source and libc source just to be sure
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1365 2014-03-10 14:51:27 <uiop> omg the horror
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1379 2014-03-10 14:51:58 <TD> it's rather the nature of build system problems that the developers who make the build system don't have them :)
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1385 2014-03-10 14:52:20 <TD> ok, reinstalling bdb seems to have cut down my errors to just being boost now. let's see if the same trick works ...
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1387 2014-03-10 14:52:54 <wumpus> also imagine having to build all code (including dependencies and dependencies of dependencies) from scratch every time you do a make clean
1388 2014-03-10 14:53:22 <wumpus> I've worked on some embedded toolchains, can easily take 8 hours to build even a base OS
1389 2014-03-10 14:53:32 <sipa> wumpus: just make the git repository a standalone buildable gentoo source tree
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1392 2014-03-10 14:53:47 <wumpus> sipa: ah yes, gentoo kind of solved this
1393 2014-03-10 14:53:47 <jcorgan> wumpus: we eventually made the switch from autotools to cmake
1394 2014-03-10 14:53:53 gues has joined
1395 2014-03-10 14:54:00 * uiop reads logs
1396 2014-03-10 14:54:00 <jcorgan> not for dependency reasons, but for sanity :)
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1398 2014-03-10 14:54:10 <uiop> "<TD> if every open source project included their dependencies, i'd probably have a few months of my life back"
1399 2014-03-10 14:54:13 <uiop> you'd have windows :)
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1406 2014-03-10 14:54:59 <wumpus> jcorgan: I'd also have preferred cmake (from a user viewpoint), but I have little experience with making scripts for it, and someone did the autotools scripts for us... and it works great, much better than the old seperate (q)makefiles
1407 2014-03-10 14:55:30 <jcorgan> agree. handwritten makefiles make my eyes bleed :)
1408 2014-03-10 14:55:41 <TD> wumpus: the build is terrible on anything that isn't the current most fashionable flavor of linux. when was the last time you built on a normal windows or mac setup?
1409 2014-03-10 14:55:56 <wumpus> TD: I always use gitian to build
1410 2014-03-10 14:55:59 <TD> the only reason make clean is necessary is because of issues with make itself. the internal google build system was designed to never need it, and it doesn't
1411 2014-03-10 14:56:06 <TD> it doesn't even have a "clean" command, iirc (unless they added it later)
1412 2014-03-10 14:56:38 <TD> but avoiding the need for such a thing was an explicit design goal
1413 2014-03-10 14:56:47 <sipa> TD: it does
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1415 2014-03-10 14:57:19 <sipa> but indeed, i can't remember a case where it was necessary
1416 2014-03-10 14:57:38 <TD> the design doc for blaze goes into the reasons why make clean ends up being needed some times, and it turns out they are all fixable by having a smarter build system
1417 2014-03-10 14:57:47 <wumpus> oh of course, if you design everything from scratch you can do better, at least for your specific applications, but the reality is that we have to cope with lots of different build systems even between the dependencies of bitcoin
1418 2014-03-10 14:58:10 <wumpus> if you included them all in the git repository you still would have to deal with invoking them
1419 2014-03-10 14:58:45 <sipa> i think much of the complexity of autotools is just because of inherent massive variation in the C/C++ platform across systems
1420 2014-03-10 14:58:51 <wumpus> there just isn't a simple solution, just lots of compromises with their own drawbacks
1421 2014-03-10 14:58:53 <wumpus> right
1422 2014-03-10 14:59:11 <wumpus> it's just a very ugly problem
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1424 2014-03-10 15:00:07 <wumpus> in any case I recommend to use gitian for building, it deals with building the dependencies
1425 2014-03-10 15:00:22 <wumpus> without even having to include them in the git repository directly!
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1427 2014-03-10 15:01:35 <jcorgan> it is.  one of the reasons we (gnuradio) made the switch away from autotools was for the ability to natively compile on Windows, as cmake handles that well, and also improved things on Mac.  We did give up the ability to compile for HP/UX circa 1995, and all the other cruft that has build up in autotools :)
1428 2014-03-10 15:02:01 <wumpus> it's possible to use the autotools in mingw on windows
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1430 2014-03-10 15:02:11 <wumpus> a few people have done it, but no one bothered to write a guide
1431 2014-03-10 15:02:23 <jcorgan> well, we're now able to do native MSVC builds
1432 2014-03-10 15:02:47 <jcorgan> not that I *personally* care
1433 2014-03-10 15:02:53 <wumpus> MSVC is not an option for us, we need to build using a cross-compiler because of deterministic building
1434 2014-03-10 15:03:04 <jcorgan> I'd much rather have built a cross-compile from Linux to Windows
1435 2014-03-10 15:03:06 <Belxjander> autotools??
1436 2014-03-10 15:04:08 <jcorgan> anyway, this is drifting a bit.  yes, dependency management is build systems is a ugly mess that is hard to solve in a way that makes everyone happy, is the conclusion i'd stick with.
1437 2014-03-10 15:04:25 <wumpus> yes autotools, everyone's favourite incomphrehensible tangle of m4 and bash code
1438 2014-03-10 15:04:40 <sipa> everyone hates autotools; but it does work
1439 2014-03-10 15:04:42 <uiop> the fun part about autotools is that the only "howto" is reading other people's build systems :)..:/..
1440 2014-03-10 15:04:49 <wumpus> +1 sipa
1441 2014-03-10 15:04:53 <uiop> yes, autotools is superior though
1442 2014-03-10 15:05:05 <jcorgan> i used to say that autotools was the worst cross-platform build system ever designed, except for all the rest
1443 2014-03-10 15:05:11 <uiop> right
1444 2014-03-10 15:05:11 <sipa> hah
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1447 2014-03-10 15:05:43 <jcorgan> but i've come to grudgingly accept cmake for what we need, and even embrace it
1448 2014-03-10 15:06:17 <jcorgan> (acknowledging that gnuradio and bitcoin have very different audiences and requirements)
1449 2014-03-10 15:06:38 <wumpus> sipa: in any case, I asked wether the next release would be rc3 or final because I was working on the release notes, but I've assumed rc3 for now
1450 2014-03-10 15:07:19 <gavinandresen> wumpus: has to be rc3 by "the rules"
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1452 2014-03-10 15:07:37 <sipa> yeah, we'll promote rcN to final at some point
1453 2014-03-10 15:07:38 samson_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1454 2014-03-10 15:07:41 <sipa> but let's not stop rcs
1455 2014-03-10 15:07:42 <gavinandresen> (only changes allowed from rc to final are documentation or build system)
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1457 2014-03-10 15:08:11 <embicoin> did somebody manage to fix the unity trayicon problem in the 0.8 client?
1458 2014-03-10 15:08:12 samson_ has joined
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1461 2014-03-10 15:08:53 <wumpus> embicoin: have you tried 0.9rc2?
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1463 2014-03-10 15:09:57 <wumpus> I *think* it's fixed, then again, I've never really been able to reproduce it
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1465 2014-03-10 15:10:04 <wumpus> except very intermittently
1466 2014-03-10 15:10:04 nullp has joined
1467 2014-03-10 15:10:27 <uiop> (re: deterministic builds) gcc earns a "wow" for arranging that they can cmp(1) their stage 2 and stage 3 compiler binaries to verify sanity
1468 2014-03-10 15:11:09 <uiop> i don't exactly recall the hoops, but they weren't that bad iirc
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1471 2014-03-10 15:11:19 <wumpus> uiop: yes, once you figure out -frandom-seed=bla , gcc does deterministic compilation very well
1472 2014-03-10 15:12:36 <embicoin> i think that it is something broken between qttray and unity, but still didn't found it... i will look at the 0.9 to find if it is fixed
1473 2014-03-10 15:12:41 <wumpus> and some of the other GNU binutils (like ar) have flags for determinism as well now
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1477 2014-03-10 15:13:58 <wumpus> embicoin: main hypothesis for the issue was a timeout, as the UI was effectively irresponsive to the OS for the time it took the core to initialize
1478 2014-03-10 15:14:15 <wumpus> embicoin: that's resolved now by moving core initialization to a thread
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1482 2014-03-10 15:15:54 <embicoin> thanks wumpus i will take a look to it
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1490 2014-03-10 15:19:04 <serphacker> hi guys, is it possible to build a tx not affectable by malleability ? By example, using some opcode in the script that aren't malleable ?
1491 2014-03-10 15:19:13 <uiop> wumpus: ah right -frandom-seed=
1492 2014-03-10 15:19:29 <sipa> serphacker: no, not yet
1493 2014-03-10 15:19:34 <serphacker> *that are not
1494 2014-03-10 15:19:42 <serphacker> ok sipa thanks, i'll deal with it
1495 2014-03-10 15:21:05 <serphacker> sipa: ok I suppose I did read your proposal https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691
1496 2014-03-10 15:25:01 <sipa> yeah, that is what wil hopefully allow optional nonmalleability
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1499 2014-03-10 15:27:34 <uiop> sipa: btw, that is a wonderfully concise and "ninja" document
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1501 2014-03-10 15:29:17 <sipa> i try to come up with ways in whivcj a documentr can be described as ninja
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1505 2014-03-10 15:29:53 <uiop> bravo
1506 2014-03-10 15:30:11 <sipa> ehm
1507 2014-03-10 15:30:35 <sipa> in which a document can be described as ninja
1508 2014-03-10 15:30:38 <sipa> thanks :)
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1517 2014-03-10 15:36:11 <Ademan> gavinandresen: may I PM you off-channel ?
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1530 2014-03-10 15:46:54 <gmaxwell> 07:49 < TD> hmm, how do I tell make to print the commands it's running?
1531 2014-03-10 15:47:02 <gmaxwell> make V=1   (or there is a configure switch)
1532 2014-03-10 15:47:15 <wumpus> yes that's the correct way gmaxwell
1533 2014-03-10 15:47:24 <TD> thanks
1534 2014-03-10 15:47:34 <TD> i was thinking of a make flag, but make -v doesn't do what i'd hoped :)
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1537 2014-03-10 15:47:53 <wumpus> (seems I missed TD's question between his raging about autoconf :-)
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1540 2014-03-10 15:48:11 <uiop> TD: that's "the linux kernel way"
1541 2014-03-10 15:48:21 <uiop> (V=1)
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1569 2014-03-10 16:04:15 <Anduck> anyone doing testnet malleability tests?
1570 2014-03-10 16:05:09 <TD> no, but running a malleability bot on there isn't a bad idea
1571 2014-03-10 16:05:31 bizzle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1572 2014-03-10 16:05:34 <Anduck> i'd love it =) anyone have some testnet coins to send to me?
1573 2014-03-10 16:05:50 <dhill> i can send you some
1574 2014-03-10 16:05:53 <Anduck> great
1575 2014-03-10 16:05:53 <dhill> give me an address
1576 2014-03-10 16:06:04 bizzle has joined
1577 2014-03-10 16:07:03 <Anduck> mhPhie9JJ8KtPtuWCpezJBtnY6gPQvP7h3
1578 2014-03-10 16:07:06 <Anduck> thanks, dhill
1579 2014-03-10 16:07:07 Iriez has joined
1580 2014-03-10 16:07:15 <anton000> does bip0021 have a suggested version?
1581 2014-03-10 16:07:23 <anton000> does bip0021 have a suggested version and correction level?
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1628 2014-03-10 16:46:30 <TD> sipa: how do the miner_tests work?
1629 2014-03-10 16:46:47 <TD> sipa: i see code like this after conditions that are apparently supposed to fail
1630 2014-03-10 16:46:48 <TD> BOOST_CHECK(pblocktemplate = CreateNewBlock(scriptPubKey));
1631 2014-03-10 16:46:48 <TD>     delete pblocktemplate;
1632 2014-03-10 16:47:28 <TD> isn't this checking that block creation worked, rather than aborted?
1633 2014-03-10 16:47:55 <TD> or .... what does it check, actually? it requires that a block was created, but then doesn't check what's in it.
1634 2014-03-10 16:48:02 <TD> gavinandresen: maybe you know?
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1636 2014-03-10 16:48:55 <gavinandresen> TD: dunno, but I can look….
1637 2014-03-10 16:49:43 <TD> yes, please. it's probable i just missed something, but at least it doesn't look like what i was expecting
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1642 2014-03-10 16:54:48 <gavinandresen> TD: mmm… git blame makes me suspect either "test rot" after refactoring, or ill-conceived tests to begin with (e.g. a precondition of transactions in the memory pool is that they are NOT orphans)
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1644 2014-03-10 16:55:47 <TD> ah. bummer. so i'm right. these tests do not work.
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1646 2014-03-10 16:56:12 <TD> indeed. i just commented out the max sigops check in CreateNewBlock and the tests still pass
1647 2014-03-10 16:56:19 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr wrote them to begin with....
1648 2014-03-10 16:56:46 <TD> i'm not sure what this comment means:
1649 2014-03-10 16:56:47 <TD>    // NOTE: These tests rely on CreateNewBlock doing its own self-validation!
1650 2014-03-10 16:57:20 <gavinandresen> TD: we might be belt-and-suspenders here, with CreateNewBlock NOT assuming that transactions in the mempool are valid, etc.
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1654 2014-03-10 17:01:27 <waxwing> does it make any sense that the signatures in my input script for a P2SH transaction are 144 bytes?
1655 2014-03-10 17:02:10 <TD> gavinandresen: i guess these tests need to be rewritten entirely. for a lot of these, the outcome is "a block is created, but it's missing some transaction"
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1657 2014-03-10 17:02:41 <gavinandresen> TD: I think the intent was to test the CheckInputs() in CreateBlock, to make sure invalid transactions in the memory pool never ended up in a mined block
1658 2014-03-10 17:03:04 <Eliel> waxwing: I suspect it's the actual P2SH script, not just a signature.
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1661 2014-03-10 17:03:30 <Eliel> it should be the script whose hash is the P2SH address.
1662 2014-03-10 17:04:19 <gavinandresen> TD: … because Luke-Jr wrote the test, and, as a mining pool operator, the costly mistake is to accidently create an invalid block...
1663 2014-03-10 17:04:58 <TD> but, for some of these tests, they just don't test anything at all
1664 2014-03-10 17:04:58 <TD>     // block sigops > limit: 1000 CHECKMULTISIG + 1
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1667 2014-03-10 17:05:36 <TD> hmm also, what's this about?
1668 2014-03-10 17:05:37 <TD>     // NOTE: OP_NOP is used to force 20 SigOps for the CHECKMULTISIG
1669 2014-03-10 17:05:38 <TD>     tx.vin[0].scriptSig = CScript() << OP_0 << OP_0 << OP_0 << OP_NOP << OP_CHECKMULTISIG << OP_1;
1670 2014-03-10 17:05:40 <TD> that's some rule i didn't know about?
1671 2014-03-10 17:05:55 <Luke-Jr> [17:01:18] <TD> gavinandresen: i guess these tests need to be rewritten entirely. for a lot of these, the outcome is "a block is created, but it's missing some transaction" <-- "missing" in what sense? it's perfectly valid to not mine transactions
1672 2014-03-10 17:06:11 <TD> yes, i know
1673 2014-03-10 17:06:16 <waxwing> Eliel, no sorry, silly arithmetic fail, it's 72 bytes :)
1674 2014-03-10 17:06:18 <TD> the unit test is not checking what transactions are in the block though
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1676 2014-03-10 17:06:28 <TD> they just make a block and as long as CreateNewBlock doesn't throw or return null, they pass
1677 2014-03-10 17:06:38 <TD> but most of the checked conditions just result in skipping a transaction, not failure to make a block entirely
1678 2014-03-10 17:07:02 <Luke-Jr> TD: it's not supposed to. miners are free to put any transactiosn they want in a block, as long as it is valid
1679 2014-03-10 17:07:31 <TD> i know - the code is right. i'm asking about the unit tests. AFAICT they don't test anything
1680 2014-03-10 17:07:36 <gavinandresen> Would be better if the unit test checked for number of transactions in the created block, agreed (invalid should not end up in block, valid should)
1681 2014-03-10 17:07:42 <TD> as in, the feature the comments say are being tested can be broken and the tests still pass
1682 2014-03-10 17:07:49 <Luke-Jr> it's testing CreateNewBlock, not "is the policy <x>?"
1683 2014-03-10 17:08:16 <Luke-Jr> TD: it should pass as long as the block created is valid
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1685 2014-03-10 17:09:10 <TD> i see
1686 2014-03-10 17:09:23 <TD> so these tests guarantee nothing at all, except that the miner receives money from the coinbase, effectively
1687 2014-03-10 17:09:29 <TD> i suppose the name of the test does allude to this
1688 2014-03-10 17:09:30 <Luke-Jr> policy is not something unit tests should cover, unless clearly distinct and disable-able IMO
1689 2014-03-10 17:09:52 <Luke-Jr> TD: it guarantees it doesn't make invalid blocks. that would also be harmful to eg SPV nodes
1690 2014-03-10 17:09:54 <gavinandresen> TD: RE: OP_NOP and OP_CHECKMULTISIG:  the P2SH opcode-counting code looks for OP_1/2/3/etc OP_CHECKMULTISIG and counts that as N sigops, but counts 20 sigops for any other opcode.
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1692 2014-03-10 17:10:04 <TD> i see
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1726 2014-03-10 17:40:14 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: +1 I raised that point w/ bluematt's tests awhile back too; if you do want to unittest policy, do so explicitly with a different set of tests
1727 2014-03-10 17:40:40 <melvster> do you know if there's any implementations of atomic cross chain trading e.g. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_5:_Trading_across_chains
1728 2014-03-10 17:41:12 <BlueMatt> petertodd: none of my tests test any kind of policy that you wouldnt always implement
1729 2014-03-10 17:41:26 <BlueMatt> IIRC the only thing that /is/ tested is tx resurrection on block reorg
1730 2014-03-10 17:41:56 <petertodd> BlueMatt: note that I didn't say that what you were doing was wrong :) IIRC the discussion was about proposed changes that would have changed that
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1732 2014-03-10 17:42:16 <BlueMatt> hmm, dont remember that but whatever
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1736 2014-03-10 17:43:59 <gmaxwell> Well there are some additional invariants that could be tested for. For example, regardless of what txn you include, you shouldn't burn fees.
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1738 2014-03-10 17:44:16 <BlueMatt> the tester does not currently have you generate a block
1739 2014-03-10 17:44:20 <BlueMatt> it can only check mempool state
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1741 2014-03-10 17:44:37 <gmaxwell> Above it sounded like mike was asking about createblock tests.
1742 2014-03-10 17:44:43 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: bitcoin-test does
1743 2014-03-10 17:44:52 <BlueMatt> sorry, not paying attention
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1745 2014-03-10 17:45:53 * Luke-Jr wonders when gmaxwell is coming over :p
1746 2014-03-10 17:46:19 <tommygunner> is there going to be a new rc2 mac build that fixes this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3778
1747 2014-03-10 17:46:31 <tommygunner> or do i have to wait for rc3 or final
1748 2014-03-10 17:46:34 <TD> i was talking about the miner_tests.cpp file
1749 2014-03-10 17:46:52 <gavinandresen> tommygunner: will be fixed with rc3, which should be out… tomorrow?
1750 2014-03-10 17:46:53 <TD> which basically puts bad txns in the mempool and then verifies that a created block is accepted. but not what the resulting block looks lik
1751 2014-03-10 17:47:05 <tommygunner> ok cool
1752 2014-03-10 17:47:26 <Luke-Jr> TD: right, anything else is a case for policy_tests.cpp ☺
1753 2014-03-10 17:47:37 <Luke-Jr> except maybe gmaxwell's suggestion
1754 2014-03-10 17:48:11 <TD> gavinandresen: why do you want the min of the two values? surely the correct value is _always_ the relay fee
1755 2014-03-10 17:48:28 <gmaxwell> I'm not coming up with any other examples of tests which are sanity but narrower than validity. I suppsoe you could repeat some of the defition of valitity, e.g. no duplicate transactions, etc.
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1757 2014-03-10 17:50:37 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: meh, testing the test is silly
1758 2014-03-10 17:51:09 tg has joined
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1760 2014-03-10 17:51:56 _ImI_ has joined
1761 2014-03-10 17:51:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: hm? I'm not suggesting the test. The reason to repeat some of the validity invariants is because a bug that causes you to produce an invalid block may well cause you to accept one too.
1762 2014-03-10 17:52:10 <gmaxwell> (though hopefully that would get caught by matt's tool)
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1765 2014-03-10 17:53:14 <TD> tests are supposed to verify that the code works as the authors intended. the current miner tests don't check _anything_ except that "some valid block is created". you could replace CreateBlock with code that produces a coinbase and nothing else, and the tests would still pass, despite obviously being broken - except in some absurd academic sense of "miners can theoretically do anything they like even if it is stupid and makes no sense"
1766 2014-03-10 17:53:14 <TD> doesn't mean the code should actually do that by default
1767 2014-03-10 17:53:20 <gavinandresen> TD: well….   miners shouldn't set mintxfee lower than minrelaytxfee… but I'd have to think about whether it might ever make sense to do that.  Maybe… you might get a transaction that you relay because of its priority, but mine because of mintxfee
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1770 2014-03-10 17:54:14 <Luke-Jr> TD: "some valid block is created" is what is intended. everything beyond that is supposed to be up to the user, not the author.
1771 2014-03-10 17:54:36 <petertodd> TD: in a more conventional environment that may be true, but bitcoin core's unittests are used by more than just bitcoin core, so it makes sense to factor out the important tests from mere policy, particularly as the latter changes over time
1772 2014-03-10 17:54:41 <Luke-Jr> TD: shipped policy is just an example implementation
1773 2014-03-10 17:54:56 <petertodd> TD: e.g. python-bitcoinlib slavishly copies bitcoin core's unittests, both code and data
1774 2014-03-10 17:55:40 rastapopuloto has joined
1775 2014-03-10 17:55:40 <TD> i'm not getting into this argument now, it's dumb and i want to get this done.
1776 2014-03-10 17:55:43 <Luke-Jr> these days it would be unreasonable for a major miner to be using the example unchanged
1777 2014-03-10 17:55:55 <TD> gavinandresen: in that scenario mining policy is mismatched with relay policy again. they're supposed to always be the same. i think the problem here is this extra rule that is checking fees again to make <relay fee "free"
1778 2014-03-10 17:56:34 <TD> gavinandresen: really it should be calling a method that's called by the relay code too, to decide if a tx is considered free
1779 2014-03-10 17:57:19 <Luke-Jr> they're not supposed to be the same.. relaying is lower-cost than mining
1780 2014-03-10 17:57:25 bizzle has joined
1781 2014-03-10 17:57:51 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: but relaying without mining is a DoS attack
1782 2014-03-10 17:57:57 <gavinandresen> TD: agreed, but that's a tricky refactor (because finding the outputs a transaction is spending is slightly different when relaying versus creating a block)
1783 2014-03-10 17:58:00 Krellan_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1784 2014-03-10 17:58:04 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: in what sense?
1785 2014-03-10 17:58:06 <gmaxwell> Historically we've used a lower threshold for relaying than mining in order to make deployment of new default (or local custom) mining policy easier.
1786 2014-03-10 17:58:19 <gmaxwell> But as petertodd points out, that might be illadvised.
1787 2014-03-10 17:58:22 <TD> ok, well the relay code just compares with nMinRelayTxFee and not the min() so i figure CreateNewBlock should use the same logic
1788 2014-03-10 17:58:29 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: because it lets a flooding party bloat the mempool.
1789 2014-03-10 17:58:45 <gavinandresen> TD: ACK, do that, "simplest possible thing that will work"
1790 2014-03-10 17:58:51 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: a 'fee' is not a fee if the transaction doesn't confirm...
1791 2014-03-10 17:58:54 <gavinandresen> TD: I retract my nit-picky min()
1792 2014-03-10 17:58:59 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: with non-limited mempools you can cause OOM errors and even with them you can selfishly use up bandwidth that could otherwise be doing useful work. (especially with my "doublespend a chain of transactions" attack varient)
1793 2014-03-10 17:59:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: not inherently; we could just fix the code so non-mined mempool stuff gets discarded first
1794 2014-03-10 17:59:12 LogZz has joined
1795 2014-03-10 17:59:39 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: +1
1796 2014-03-10 17:59:41 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: sure there are thing that could be improved, but as things are there is some mild dos attack potential when relay and block creation policy aren't in agreement.
1797 2014-03-10 18:00:10 <gmaxwell> Though it's an issue we've survived forever and probably not worse than a number of other potential DOS attack vectors.
1798 2014-03-10 18:00:27 basva___ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1799 2014-03-10 18:00:39 <gavinandresen> filling up memory with mempool transactions is hard, because the UTXO set is finite.
1800 2014-03-10 18:00:43 <petertodd> Indeed - I probably should just write up the code to do the attack generically and release it so we can test it. Same with bloom filters
1801 2014-03-10 18:00:51 <petertodd> *bloom filter IO attack
1802 2014-03-10 18:00:52 <Luke-Jr> I suppose it can't hurt to match the two; I just worry about miners neglecting to override the default policy being too many
1803 2014-03-10 18:01:01 <gavinandresen> … so you're arguing angels-dancing-on-the-head-of-a-pin....
1804 2014-03-10 18:01:34 <petertodd> gavinandresen: it's a well quantifiable cost... and the attack can make utxo's (e.g. chains of txs)
1805 2014-03-10 18:01:39 pierreatwork has joined
1806 2014-03-10 18:01:45 basva___ has joined
1807 2014-03-10 18:01:54 <gavinandresen> petertodd: don't you have better things to do? One of the things that annoys me about you is you never seem to write PRODUCTIVE, USEFUL code
1808 2014-03-10 18:01:59 <TD> petertodd: if you release it 6 months after writing and getting merged code to do resource scheduling, great!
1809 2014-03-10 18:03:02 jgarzik has joined
1810 2014-03-10 18:03:03 <petertodd> gavinandresen: the thing that bothers me about you is you do the exact opposite... but it's not productive useful code because you don't think it through.
1811 2014-03-10 18:03:10 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1812 2014-03-10 18:03:10 <gavinandresen> okey dokey
1813 2014-03-10 18:03:22 _ImI_ has joined
1814 2014-03-10 18:03:25 <jgarzik> https://www.onename.io/?a=1
1815 2014-03-10 18:03:31 <jgarzik> "store your profile in the blockchain"  sigh
1816 2014-03-10 18:03:41 <petertodd> jgarzik: lol
1817 2014-03-10 18:03:55 <TD> petertodd: that comment sounded amazingly stupid
1818 2014-03-10 18:04:09 <Luke-Jr> … I don't think any of us here should be telling the others how to spend our time :/
1819 2014-03-10 18:04:22 <TD> i think if satoshi had met you and discussed bitcoin with you before he released it, he would have given up because you'd have given him a million reasons why he was an idiot and his idea couldn't work
1820 2014-03-10 18:04:29 <TD> yet, here we are
1821 2014-03-10 18:04:33 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: +1 Besides, I make a living from my approach, so I have some evidence it works for paying rent. :P
1822 2014-03-10 18:04:44 <TD> oh yeah. aren't you meant to be working on mastercoin?
1823 2014-03-10 18:04:45 <maaku> Luke-Jr: I'm telling you to spend your time as you see fit
1824 2014-03-10 18:05:23 gmaxwell has left ()
1825 2014-03-10 18:05:34 <petertodd> TD: not quite - they hired me not to work on mastercoin, but the entire decentralized finance space, including shaping bitcoin development
1826 2014-03-10 18:06:34 <petertodd> TD: it's colored coins and counterparty where I'm more explicitly working for the project, and even that's not totally true (I'm getting paid to do focused research mainly there)
1827 2014-03-10 18:06:42 hmsimha has joined
1828 2014-03-10 18:06:50 <gavinandresen> petertodd: if you want to shape bitcoin development, then write some useful code or do some code review and testing....
1829 2014-03-10 18:06:59 <TD> unit tests could use some work :D
1830 2014-03-10 18:07:39 <petertodd> TD: most of my contributions have been unit tests actually
1831 2014-03-10 18:07:41 <gavinandresen> writing code that might be picked up by script-kiddies to disrupt parts of the network isn't particularly helpful
1832 2014-03-10 18:07:50 Application has joined
1833 2014-03-10 18:08:20 Coincidental has joined
1834 2014-03-10 18:08:22 <TD> this is true. more of that please!
1835 2014-03-10 18:08:24 <pierreatwork> jgarzik: did you have any input on the recurring payments proposal form the mailing-list?
1836 2014-03-10 18:08:24 <petertodd> gavinandresen: working on things like tree chains and understanding the system is much more useful to said clients
1837 2014-03-10 18:08:37 basva___ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1838 2014-03-10 18:10:32 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1839 2014-03-10 18:10:36 basva___ has joined
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1841 2014-03-10 18:11:35 rastapopuloto has left ("Leaving")
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1843 2014-03-10 18:11:58 nakumo has joined
1844 2014-03-10 18:12:48 <nakumo> hi
1845 2014-03-10 18:12:52 adam3us has joined
1846 2014-03-10 18:13:19 jtimon has joined
1847 2014-03-10 18:14:36 <jgarzik> pierreatwork, it's on the stack... !
1848 2014-03-10 18:15:15 <jgarzik> pierreatwork, SXSW is distracting the entire tech community this week.  It's like August, in Europe.  Nothing gets done, frantically , and without sleep.
1849 2014-03-10 18:15:17 _ImI_ has quit (Quit: _ImI_)
1850 2014-03-10 18:15:28 <Luke-Jr> pierreatwork: what subject/date? I didn't see it..
1851 2014-03-10 18:15:28 <petertodd> jgarzik: oh yeah, I met your colleague who did go to the fin crypto conf, nice guy
1852 2014-03-10 18:15:29 <jgarzik> (and I'm not even at SXSW)
1853 2014-03-10 18:15:41 <jgarzik> petertodd, which colleague?
1854 2014-03-10 18:16:33 <petertodd> jgarzik: forget his name, young guy, tall, dating elizabeth ploshay apparently
1855 2014-03-10 18:16:52 <jgarzik> Patrick
1856 2014-03-10 18:17:01 <petertodd> jgarzik: right
1857 2014-03-10 18:17:12 <TD> lol. bitcoin community is getting incestuous :)
1858 2014-03-10 18:17:22 <Luke-Jr> TD: …
1859 2014-03-10 18:18:20 <jgarzik> TD, hah.  In this and a couple other cases, it's more like one person gets hired, and then gets their SO fired up about bitcoin, and that turns into 2 bitcoin jobs in one household
1860 2014-03-10 18:18:28 <jgarzik> seen that several times now, it's cute
1861 2014-03-10 18:18:56 <TD> awww
1862 2014-03-10 18:19:00 <petertodd> TD: I was surprised at how many couples there were at fincrypt who were jointly presenting research
1863 2014-03-10 18:19:05 * TD is waiting for the first bitcoin baby to be named "satoshi"
1864 2014-03-10 18:19:27 <Luke-Jr> oh no
1865 2014-03-10 18:19:35 <TD> Satoshi-Jr
1866 2014-03-10 18:19:37 <Luke-Jr> as if there aren't enough satoshis already
1867 2014-03-10 18:19:39 <petertodd> I date art students, so I guess it wouldn't be quite honest for me to name my kid satoshi...
1868 2014-03-10 18:19:47 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: we are all satoshi
1869 2014-03-10 18:20:02 <jgarzik> My wife and I might go for a third.  If so, the proposed name is 0xa2278620 Garzik
1870 2014-03-10 18:20:11 <jgarzik> (that's "garzik", double-sha256)
1871 2014-03-10 18:20:41 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: just go with Kodedera? <.<
1872 2014-03-10 18:20:44 <Anduck> sooo can someone send few testnetcoins to me?
1873 2014-03-10 18:20:45 <TD> not sure hashing such a low entropy input is a great idea. just use SHA3 of the kids DNA
1874 2014-03-10 18:20:49 <petertodd> jgarzik: if you do that I'll pay for that kids college education (modulo some assumptions about the long-term price rise of bitcoin)
1875 2014-03-10 18:21:01 zer0def has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1876 2014-03-10 18:21:14 <TD> Anduck: did you try http://faucet.xeno-genesis.com/ ?
1877 2014-03-10 18:21:16 bdhuser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1878 2014-03-10 18:21:23 <Anduck> yup
1879 2014-03-10 18:21:31 <TD> and it didn't work?
1880 2014-03-10 18:21:39 <Anduck> works
1881 2014-03-10 18:21:43 <Anduck> but i need more than 0.1
1882 2014-03-10 18:21:56 <Anduck> ive used that faucet earlier too, it's good
1883 2014-03-10 18:22:00 <Luke-Jr> can even nickname Kodedera "code" :p
1884 2014-03-10 18:22:18 nakumo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1885 2014-03-10 18:22:53 <jcorgan> I should have named my son CIP0001
1886 2014-03-10 18:23:40 <petertodd> given my professional focus on anonymity and privacy, I should name my kid "John Smith"
1887 2014-03-10 18:23:48 * Luke-Jr wonders how long until someone proposes a BIP for deterministic child naming
1888 2014-03-10 18:23:50 <Anduck> or john doe
1889 2014-03-10 18:23:53 nakumo has joined
1890 2014-03-10 18:23:55 <skinnkavaj> <jgarzik> My wife and I might go for a third.  If so, the proposed name is 0xa2278620 Garzik / haha
1891 2014-03-10 18:24:20 <petertodd> Anduck: ironically that's an uncommon name
1892 2014-03-10 18:24:34 <Anduck> :D
1893 2014-03-10 18:24:47 <jgarzik> petertodd, That won't work, Smith is not a first name, and you already have two first names.  Must continue the trend.
1894 2014-03-10 18:24:49 <TD> John Smith isn't that common either. and people would always be suspecting he was joking
1895 2014-03-10 18:24:51 <Anduck> nothing beats smith, john smith
1896 2014-03-10 18:24:57 <TD> just call your kid "Mike Jones".
1897 2014-03-10 18:25:05 <TD> just as good, but with less chance of being suspect
1898 2014-03-10 18:25:14 <skinnkavaj> Do you know any hardware wallets? Other than Trezor
1899 2014-03-10 18:25:30 <Anduck> nope and i've not seen trezor tho its been half year since ordering one
1900 2014-03-10 18:25:31 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: there's at least a few..
1901 2014-03-10 18:25:33 <TD> skinnkavaj: butterfly labs was working on one, a while ago
1902 2014-03-10 18:25:33 <jgarzik> Do paper wallets qualify as hardware wallets?
1903 2014-03-10 18:25:39 <skinnkavaj> Whats happening with Trezor?
1904 2014-03-10 18:25:39 <TD> skinnkavaj: but i didn't hear anything from them for a long time
1905 2014-03-10 18:25:41 <skinnkavaj> Anyone knows?
1906 2014-03-10 18:25:43 stonecoldpat has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1907 2014-03-10 18:25:48 <TD> they're about to ship, iirc
1908 2014-03-10 18:25:50 <CodeShark> I don't even know about Trezor…and I ordered one months ago :p
1909 2014-03-10 18:25:55 <TD> at least to dev/early adopter types
1910 2014-03-10 18:25:56 <Luke-Jr> TD: pretty sure I saw it at the Texas conference a few days ago
1911 2014-03-10 18:26:00 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: they're finding out that hardware is mainly dominated by the first part of the name
1912 2014-03-10 18:26:31 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: I hear their injection moulding for the plastic cases is going badly; looking for a new supplier (according to their blog)
1913 2014-03-10 18:26:35 <skinnkavaj> TD: Butterflylabs working on hardware wallets. I think that is the last company I would ever buy a hardware wallet from
1914 2014-03-10 18:26:54 <TD> Anduck: i'll send you some in a few minutes. just gotta sync my wallet
1915 2014-03-10 18:26:58 <Anduck> thanks
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1917 2014-03-10 18:27:01 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: meh, if they opensource the design fully... and they're not accepting preorders (!)
1918 2014-03-10 18:27:03 <Anduck> mhPhie9JJ8KtPtuWCpezJBtnY6gPQvP7h3
1919 2014-03-10 18:27:17 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: well, if you're waiting a year for Trezor, they don't seem to be doing much better :x
1920 2014-03-10 18:27:24 <skinnkavaj> petertodd: I wanna see it first
1921 2014-03-10 18:27:27 <TD> lol
1922 2014-03-10 18:27:32 <jgarzik> In bitcoin, the people producing hardware have often never produced hardware before.
1923 2014-03-10 18:27:32 <jgarzik> Just like, in bitcoin, the people securing millions of dollars worth of bitcoins have often never produced secure software before.
1924 2014-03-10 18:27:36 <TD> petertodd: your testnet dns seed just gave me *only* ipv6 addresses
1925 2014-03-10 18:27:37 <skinnkavaj> Whats so hard to do with Trezor?
1926 2014-03-10 18:27:41 <skinnkavaj> Why is it taking so long time?
1927 2014-03-10 18:27:49 <jgarzik> newbie company with zero h/w exp
1928 2014-03-10 18:27:53 <Luke-Jr> TD: IPv4 is deprecated, didn't you know?
1929 2014-03-10 18:28:02 <petertodd> TD: bizzare, I can't get that to reproduce
1930 2014-03-10 18:28:05 <TD> skinnkavaj: they had to write their own wallet too
1931 2014-03-10 18:28:14 <skinnkavaj> I am sure you could make a lot of money for extra incomg doing hardware wallets and actually deliver them.
1932 2014-03-10 18:28:45 <petertodd> TD: what are you using?
1933 2014-03-10 18:28:46 <TD> petertodd: oh never mind. i'm an idiot. i forgot to enable debug logging so it only printed errors.
1934 2014-03-10 18:29:04 <skinnkavaj> TD: Why couldnt they use armory?
1935 2014-03-10 18:29:15 <TD> skinnkavaj: also they're doing HD wallets and other things, so there was a lot of software-side work too. plus making a "web wallet" that uses USB hardware work across all major platforms is a PITA
1936 2014-03-10 18:29:19 <Luke-Jr> hw wallets really *shouldn't* implement a full wallet XD
1937 2014-03-10 18:29:22 <TD> because armory isn't going to work for a mass market product, obviously.
1938 2014-03-10 18:29:28 _ImI_ has joined
1939 2014-03-10 18:29:32 <TD> also they didn't want to wait for other wallet authors who have different priorities
1940 2014-03-10 18:29:34 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1941 2014-03-10 18:29:37 <skinnkavaj> You are aiming for the average joe
1942 2014-03-10 18:29:40 <Luke-Jr> Trezor is shipping with Multibit integration I think?
1943 2014-03-10 18:29:41 <skinnkavaj> Thats good
1944 2014-03-10 18:29:53 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: unfortunately they have to implement 95% of the code so they can verify payment requests
1945 2014-03-10 18:30:18 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: ah, crap. forgot about that detail :/
1946 2014-03-10 18:30:21 <TD> that was the original plan but the MB guys decided to do a total rewrite in the middle of the project
1947 2014-03-10 18:30:30 <TD> so then the trezor guys decided to do their own wallet, i think
1948 2014-03-10 18:30:56 <TD> it's a web app that uses browser plugins and stuff to talk USB, full javascript
1949 2014-03-10 18:31:37 <pierreatwork> jgarzik: no worries, one pop at a time! :-)
1950 2014-03-10 18:31:40 <petertodd> I wonder if the hardware they're shipping will have reflashable firmware...
1951 2014-03-10 18:31:46 <TD> it does.
1952 2014-03-10 18:31:54 <petertodd> TD: good, and not over usb I hope?
1953 2014-03-10 18:31:56 <TD> it only accepts signed firmwares. not sure if they were able to do e-fuses
1954 2014-03-10 18:32:06 <TD> the only plug is USB so it has to be over USB
1955 2014-03-10 18:32:21 <pierreatwork> Luke-Jr: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=D6BCC0C4-EF22-4DE8-868E-825D19C387E3%40kill-bill.org&forum_name=bitcoin-development
1956 2014-03-10 18:32:21 <petertodd> hmm... hopefully you can take the case apart and access some icsp port or something
1957 2014-03-10 18:32:42 <TD> i think it's not intended to be tamper resistant for now. just malware resistant. tamper resistance is an obvious future direction to go in
1958 2014-03-10 18:32:52 <TD> i'm looking forward to getting mine
1959 2014-03-10 18:33:04 _ImI_ has quit (Client Quit)
1960 2014-03-10 18:33:05 <petertodd> TD: well some glitter nailpolish is a decent solution for tamper detection
1961 2014-03-10 18:33:38 tjopper has joined
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1963 2014-03-10 18:34:00 <TD> resistance > detection. at some point we need to move to a world where most bitcoins are in tamper-resistant hardware chips that enforce various risk policies
1964 2014-03-10 18:34:04 Guyver2 has joined
1965 2014-03-10 18:34:06 <TD> but one step at a time
1966 2014-03-10 18:34:45 espringe has quit (Quit: espringe)
1967 2014-03-10 18:34:59 <Luke-Jr> TD: eww
1968 2014-03-10 18:35:00 <CodeShark> that type of hardware should already exist for so many other applications :)
1969 2014-03-10 18:35:25 <petertodd> CodeShark: an interesting point that was raised to me at the fincrypto conference was that banks seem to have decided that ARM's trustzone stuff is too much work comapred to legislative measures, so they suddenly have no market for the tech...
1970 2014-03-10 18:35:29 <Luke-Jr> there should ALWAYS be an option for unsigned fw
1971 2014-03-10 18:35:47 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: have I told you about my design for an opensource remote attestation capable HSM?
1972 2014-03-10 18:35:53 <TD> CodeShark: it does. but it's not really "hackable" for obvious reasons
1973 2014-03-10 18:36:04 <TD> CodeShark: unless you use generic Intel/AMD support but that never worked very well
1974 2014-03-10 18:36:23 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: dont think so
1975 2014-03-10 18:36:33 <TD> Intel are gearing up for another go though. it's looking promising if they really deliver. but no timeframes are available
1976 2014-03-10 18:37:33 <TD> but i think in practice a tamper-resistant Trezor will work better, sooner
1977 2014-03-10 18:38:06 derbumi has quit (Quit: derbumi)
1978 2014-03-10 18:38:13 zer0def has joined
1979 2014-03-10 18:38:23 <CodeShark> a tripwire that fries the circuit is always a relatively inexpensive approach :)
1980 2014-03-10 18:39:00 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: so basically, you can plausibly build a "strong box" that with good tamper detection out of tempered glass with mirror silver conductors on the inside - try to play with it and the tempered glass reliably explodes, destroying the conductors. the seams you protect with active capacitance measurement. Inside the box you put hardware that itself is designed to reliably generate a key within the box, and accept an externally applied ...
1981 2014-03-10 18:39:06 <petertodd> ... signature. The manufacturer doesn't need to actually sign those keys, rather, you build a production lot, send that lot to an external auditor, have them take apart n of m units to verify the hardware design was followed, and when they're happy, then can sign the internally generated keys. if desired, repeat with multiple auditors.
1982 2014-03-10 18:40:06 kurtosis has joined
1983 2014-03-10 18:40:29 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: tempered glass and mirror silver are both cheap and low tech. the hardware design in the box needs some care, particularly in how it generates keys - you need to make sure the process by which that happens is auditable after disassembly. The result is probably even GPL3 compatible as the end user can always retrigger the rekey process and in effect act as their own auditor.
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1986 2014-03-10 18:41:38 <petertodd> Interestingly, I was contacted recently by a group making a hardware bitcoin wallet, and they've added simple remote attestation capabilities to it. No temperproofness yet, but in due time...
1987 2014-03-10 18:43:13 <venzen> a few weeks ago i did a write-up of a Nevada-based company called SmartMetric that does a card-sized wallet: http://www.smartmetric.com
1988 2014-03-10 18:43:24 <TD> effectively what you want is a hardware wallet PKI, so you can check that a wallet is a genuine hardware wallet running a genuine firmware remotely. then you can pay into it knowing how the money will behave
1989 2014-03-10 18:43:49 <venzen> not sure smartmetric is any good - but for what it's worth..
1990 2014-03-10 18:43:55 <petertodd> TD: yup, and remote attestation is one path to that
1991 2014-03-10 18:44:06 PK has joined
1992 2014-03-10 18:44:12 * Luke-Jr wonders how you backup these hw wallets
1993 2014-03-10 18:44:13 nakumo_ has joined
1994 2014-03-10 18:44:41 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: you build code into them that allows the keys to be copied to another wallet with the same attestation
1995 2014-03-10 18:44:45 nakumo_ has quit (Client Quit)
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1997 2014-03-10 18:45:12 <skinnkavaj> I wounder what nick satoshi idles with here nowadays when he is back
1998 2014-03-10 18:45:19 darkskiez has joined
1999 2014-03-10 18:45:35 <TD> yes sure of course
2000 2014-03-10 18:45:40 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj, I hear his nick is "Luke-Jr"
2001 2014-03-10 18:45:44 <CodeShark> lol
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2003 2014-03-10 18:46:09 <TD> the interesting part is not the trusted computing aspects which are relatively well explored (though transition of sealed data across upgrades is a problem that intel promise to finally fix with sgx)
2004 2014-03-10 18:46:13 <TD> the interesting part is the policies and how they work
2005 2014-03-10 18:46:17 <skinnkavaj> jgarzik: Wouldn't suprise me
2006 2014-03-10 18:46:36 <TD> for example, we want to avoid rich bitcoin users being kidnapped/their wives/girlfriends/boyfriends/kids being kidnapped
2007 2014-03-10 18:46:38 basva___ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2008 2014-03-10 18:46:45 PK has quit (Client Quit)
2009 2014-03-10 18:46:45 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: -.-
2010 2014-03-10 18:47:03 <TD> so what policies can stop that? people rich in bank money don't have to worry much today because bank payments can be rolled back, traced to real identities and banks place low limits on daily cash withdrawals
2011 2014-03-10 18:47:25 <CodeShark> multitiered, multisig policies
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2013 2014-03-10 18:47:28 <TD> replicating those policies using hardware and remote attestation seems like one place to start, where a "cash" withdrawal is withdrawal to an unauthd/raw bitcoin address
2014 2014-03-10 18:47:33 basva___ has joined
2015 2014-03-10 18:48:18 <TD> and a "regular" withdrawal requires an authd payment request and possibly, a remote attestation from the remote wallet promising that it also enforces the same policies
2016 2014-03-10 18:48:22 <TD> but not sure
2017 2014-03-10 18:48:22 ssshhh has joined
2018 2014-03-10 18:48:24 <TD> needs thought
2019 2014-03-10 18:48:56 <TD> i was pondering it for the last month or two, but figuring out the precise policies is tricky. you don't want to harm usability. on the other hand, you need to effectively stop people spending their own money in unrestricted ways to avoid coercion
2020 2014-03-10 18:48:59 <petertodd> venzen: pity that fingerprint reader will probably prove to be standard biometric BS, because it sure is technically cool
2021 2014-03-10 18:49:18 <petertodd> venzen: the card *really* needs a display though so you can see what it's signing for... sigh
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2023 2014-03-10 18:50:12 <petertodd> TD: at an individual level you want to be able to assure the kidnapper that you really have given them all your money, there is no more money to give, so please let me go now. life >>> money
2024 2014-03-10 18:50:56 <TD> trezor already supports that kind of deniability, in theory, because you can input any kind of nonsense as a key
2025 2014-03-10 18:51:01 <TD> and it'll just show up as zero balance
2026 2014-03-10 18:51:14 <TD> or you can generate multiple HD roots and put a small balance on one and a big balance on another
2027 2014-03-10 18:51:20 <TD> in practice i think such deniability is tricky and not the solution
2028 2014-03-10 18:51:33 <TD> most people who are really rich, are known to be really rich and the general amount of their richness is not really in dispute
2029 2014-03-10 18:51:36 <petertodd> a smart kidnapper who knows about trezor's deniability will just keep torturing you...
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2031 2014-03-10 18:51:58 <TD> you have to be able to genuinely not give the kidnapper control, and there's nothing you or anyone else can do about it in a sane amount of time
2032 2014-03-10 18:52:04 <petertodd> and trezor's bip implementing that is braindead and makes it easy to lose funds in the much more likely case wher eyou don't care
2033 2014-03-10 18:52:24 <TD> so - people will end up having to deposit their money into little hardware "banks" where we replace bankers with machines. but they might still refuse you access to your own money. not really an appealing thought, but it seems there's no alternative.
2034 2014-03-10 18:52:28 <TD> and it's better than actual banks
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2036 2014-03-10 18:53:11 <petertodd> TD: that's a fun guessing game: How long does the kidnapper feel they can keep you for your wallet timeouts to expire? Might as well just involve a third party who is watching the news for your disappearance, but that party can be coerced.
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2039 2014-03-10 18:53:59 <petertodd> Anyway, this all smells like a typical example of cryptographers assuming too much about the rationality of their adversaries...
2040 2014-03-10 18:54:04 <TD> i suppose we can just look at existing bank policies to get a feel for it. but it's not really a precise match because you can't get money out of a bank account via extortion in any sane way, no matter how much you ask for, except for the case of "drive-thru kidnappings" where they march victims to an ATM
2041 2014-03-10 18:54:04 Luke-Jr has quit (Changing host)
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2043 2014-03-10 18:54:07 <TD> but you can't really keep doing that
2044 2014-03-10 18:54:25 <TD> well we have examples of economically motivated kidnapping from the real world.
2045 2014-03-10 18:54:48 <TD> but not many, in the west. the combination of banking, AML rules and working law enforcement seem to stop it pretty much dead.
2046 2014-03-10 18:55:10 <CodeShark> ever go to mexico? :)
2047 2014-03-10 18:55:17 <TD> they don't have working law enforcement
2048 2014-03-10 18:55:23 <petertodd> TD: Exactly my point - what stops them is government imposed policies to stop paying kidnappers - which doesn't work well - and just going after the kidnappers with guns - which does work well. (plus the unexciting option of making the world a nicer and less violent place)
2049 2014-03-10 18:55:33 <TD> anywhere that does, it doesn't work. you can't get cash without walking into an area controlled by the police. you can't get bank money because it can be rolled back.
2050 2014-03-10 18:56:02 <TD> bitcoin rather breaks that. now you can get "cash" without walking anywhere
2051 2014-03-10 18:56:31 <petertodd> TD: you realize that in the real world, giving kidnappers bank money *does* happen because part of the bargain with them will be "we won't roll it back" - somalian pirates do get paid off via bank wires at times.
2052 2014-03-10 18:56:40 <venzen> petertodd: yeah, it's cool at first glance but then the biometric thread becomes apparent - and agree with the need for a display... but the biometrics: the same company is proposing that US banks adopt the Bitcoin blockchain and tx fee model - all integrated by their biometrics of course :D
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2056 2014-03-10 18:57:56 <petertodd> venzen: figures, rent seekers... the depressing thing about the financial crypto conference was how there were no banks there at all - they've long ago realized that it's cheaper to just dump the costs of fraud on consumers and merchants, and change the laws to make them less liable, or some places, make it impossible to even prove the bank was at fault and/or fraud occured
2057 2014-03-10 18:58:02 <TD> petertodd: somalia doesn't have banks, so nice try but that's not what happens. they usually demand payment in something they know they can keep. obviously: otherwise the senders would just roll back after getting the victim back
2058 2014-03-10 18:58:07 <petertodd>                    at fault and/or fraud occured
2059 2014-03-10 18:58:22 <petertodd> TD: no, this goes on with banks outside of somalia
2060 2014-03-10 18:58:26 <midnightmagic> biometrics to unlock money == stolen body parts. also, somalian pirates, aren't. :)
2061 2014-03-10 18:58:38 <TD> petertodd: can you show me a case? i'd like to see how they handle it
2062 2014-03-10 18:58:49 <TD> the cases i've seen all involve cash
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2064 2014-03-10 18:59:23 <petertodd> TD: this was told to me in person at the financial crypto conf - so hard to say. What they did say is that payment arrangements are kept out of the media/public sphere for reasons of not encouraging others.
2065 2014-03-10 19:00:10 <petertodd> TD: of course, part of why that works is these kidnappers have multiple victims held at any one time... and once money is in one bank they can move it again and again, or to untracable loot
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2068 2014-03-10 19:00:43 <petertodd> Obviously in the western world against less organized kidnappers with single targets bankwires don't work so great.
2069 2014-03-10 19:01:26 <TD> yeah, if the bank lets you cash out all at once then it's a problem.
2070 2014-03-10 19:01:42 <petertodd> yup, and "let me cash out or I'll kill the other guy" is an excellent threat
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2072 2014-03-10 19:02:10 <petertodd> the bitcoin thing is ugly too, because even if your accounts are timelocked/whatever, you can always get a non-timelocked loan and pay the kidnappers with it
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2074 2014-03-10 19:02:24 <petertodd> ...and getting loans to pay off kidnappers happens a lot already
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2076 2014-03-10 19:02:33 <waxwing> petertodd, " the depressing thing about the financial crypto conference was how there were no banks there at all"  - the first time I ever saw someone be depressed at a lack of bankers
2077 2014-03-10 19:02:42 <TD> the question that intrigues me is to what extent is the western protection based on reversibility, vs KYC?
2078 2014-03-10 19:02:42 <petertodd> waxwing: lol
2079 2014-03-10 19:03:03 <petertodd> TD: KYC implies reversibility in the real world
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2084 2014-03-10 19:04:14 Rez is now known as LoRez
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2086 2014-03-10 19:04:21 <TD> you mean the $5-wrench kind of reversibility? ID theft makes it seem not entirely connected to me: with truly irreversible transactions, you could easily just steal someones identity, get the money wired there and get away scott free
2087 2014-03-10 19:04:24 <petertodd> waxwing: of course, personally I've got nothing against banking - loans and such are a very useful function, and equally in the future I expect services to crop up to outsource the risk and difficulties of holding bitcoins to third-parties. (perferably in a n-of-m escrow arrangement)
2088 2014-03-10 19:04:42 <TD> i mean not "easily" but ID verification alone is not a panacea
2089 2014-03-10 19:04:54 <petertodd> TD: yes, which shows that KYC often fails, not that KYC != reversibility
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2092 2014-03-10 19:06:00 <waxwing> petertodd, today I was able to verify the 500 byte limit for scriptSigs, meaning something like M+N=7 ... but still can't work out what the "hard" limit is at Eligius .. it's higher but I don't know what variable controls it
2093 2014-03-10 19:06:14 <waxwing> 6 of 7 worked but 2 of 8 didn't
2094 2014-03-10 19:06:24 <petertodd> waxwing: luke-jr's thoughts about junk in the blockchain!
2095 2014-03-10 19:06:31 <waxwing> :)
2096 2014-03-10 19:07:06 <petertodd> waxwing: so your redeemScript was < 520 byte limit right? (IE, does it all work on testnet?)
2097 2014-03-10 19:07:21 <petertodd> waxwing: *<= 520 byte limit
2098 2014-03-10 19:07:22 <waxwing> on realnet, < 500 yes
2099 2014-03-10 19:07:33 <waxwing> oh no hang on
2100 2014-03-10 19:07:47 <waxwing> redeemScript .. hmm I haven't calcultaed it
2101 2014-03-10 19:07:53 <petertodd> waxwing: redeemScript != scriptSig, though redeemScript \in scriptSig :)
2102 2014-03-10 19:08:22 <waxwing> i was just adding up sigs+pubkeys to get the overall size
2103 2014-03-10 19:08:39 <petertodd> don'
2104 2014-03-10 19:08:39 <waxwing> like ~70 bytes for each sig and 65 bytes for each pubkey
2105 2014-03-10 19:08:50 <petertodd> don't forget the byte to encode the size, and the opcode bytes
2106 2014-03-10 19:08:59 <waxwing> right but that's not much is it?
2107 2014-03-10 19:09:21 <petertodd> yea, one extra byte per pushdata, and three bytes for n, m, and OP_CHECKSIG
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2109 2014-03-10 19:09:50 <waxwing> so what's the 520 byte limit? I found the 500 byte limit in main.cpp
2110 2014-03-10 19:10:10 <petertodd> the 500 byte limit is an IsStandard() limit, the 520 byte limit is in script.cpp and is a hard-limit
2111 2014-03-10 19:10:40 <waxwing> ah.. but ... how come 6 of 7 worked? that's much bigger than 520
2112 2014-03-10 19:10:53 <waxwing> i mean - worked on Eligius
2113 2014-03-10 19:11:07 <petertodd> the 520 byte limit is on the size of the redeemScript, not the scriptSig
2114 2014-03-10 19:11:25 <waxwing> oh so that's my failure here, I don't understand what redeemscript actually is..
2115 2014-03-10 19:11:45 <petertodd> so do you understand how p2sh works?
2116 2014-03-10 19:11:47 <CodeShark> redeemscript is the portion of scriptSig that is hashed to the p2sh
2117 2014-03-10 19:12:00 <waxwing> i see; which bit is hashed then?
2118 2014-03-10 19:12:17 <waxwing> petertodd, as you can see, not very well :)
2119 2014-03-10 19:12:38 <waxwing> i just remember M N sig sig.. pub pub ... checkmultisig
2120 2014-03-10 19:12:46 <petertodd> waxwing: have you read this? https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0016.mediawiki
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2122 2014-03-10 19:13:15 <waxwing> yes I have but such things often need to be read again :)
2123 2014-03-10 19:13:29 <petertodd> or actually, better yet, read my updated version with talks about the limits: https://github.com/petertodd/bips/blob/e5d0289c3e0df888277b92cf807aa86335203113/bip-0016.mediawiki
2124 2014-03-10 19:13:47 <petertodd> from my pull-req: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/24
2125 2014-03-10 19:14:48 <waxwing> right that looks like it will be very helpful. thanks.
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2134 2014-03-10 19:21:09 <waxwing> petertodd, ok better .. so redeemscript is like M pub pub.. N OP_CHECKMULTISIG , is that right (or at least in my case)?
2135 2014-03-10 19:21:18 <petertodd> right
2136 2014-03-10 19:21:31 <waxwing> so that has a hard limit of 520, whereas the 500 overall limit is for standard
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2138 2014-03-10 19:22:07 <petertodd> correct
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2140 2014-03-10 19:22:39 <petertodd> (I'm actually just doing up a pull-req now to change that scriptSig limit so that 15-of-15 CHECKSIG can be spent)
2141 2014-03-10 19:22:43 <waxwing> ok that's great thanks, makes more sense now .. will need to cogitate further
2142 2014-03-10 19:23:11 <waxwing> petertodd, oh really, that's nice to hear
2143 2014-03-10 19:23:22 <waxwing> does it require compressed pubkeys though?
2144 2014-03-10 19:23:33 <petertodd> yeah, uncompressed has an even lower limit
2145 2014-03-10 19:24:19 <waxwing> so you'll just be changing the size limits?
2146 2014-03-10 19:24:25 <petertodd> yup
2147 2014-03-10 19:25:43 <waxwing> oh i remember now, you needed to make sure people don't create unspendable outputs
2148 2014-03-10 19:25:53 ssshhh has quit (Quit: Got to go - Be back soon!)
2149 2014-03-10 19:26:48 <petertodd> yup
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2162 2014-03-10 19:43:24 <CodeShark> silly question - I started a coind with connect=<something>, listen=1, and gen=1. it generated  a block. I called "getblocktemplate" and get the error "<whatever>coin is downloading blocks…"
2163 2014-03-10 19:43:41 <CodeShark> the whole point of this exercise is to isolate the node
2164 2014-03-10 19:44:12 <CodeShark> so the question is…how do I get getblocktemplate to work without needing a network connection?
2165 2014-03-10 19:44:23 <CodeShark> without having to patch the source
2166 2014-03-10 19:44:28 <CodeShark> or is there a way?
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2168 2014-03-10 19:45:44 <CodeShark> the build in CPU miner seems to be working fine
2169 2014-03-10 19:45:52 <CodeShark> but I cannot use the getblocktemplate API
2170 2014-03-10 19:47:10 <CodeShark> I guess it thinks it's still in RPC_CLIENT_IN_INITIAL_DOWNLOAD
2171 2014-03-10 19:47:54 <CodeShark> ah, gotta disable checkponts
2172 2014-03-10 19:47:57 <CodeShark> ah, gotta disable checkpoints
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2175 2014-03-10 19:48:57 <CodeShark> silly me :P
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2177 2014-03-10 19:50:46 <jcrubino> is this a mainnet address: 36vbRYZ9UdBrLy7w7V5kiAFogyd8VBB21A
2178 2014-03-10 19:50:55 <CodeShark> looks like a p2sh
2179 2014-03-10 19:51:01 <jcrubino> that is what I thought
2180 2014-03-10 19:51:24 <jcrubino> a prefix of 1 for mainnet and 3 for p2sh
2181 2014-03-10 19:51:37 <CodeShark> p2sh is mainnet
2182 2014-03-10 19:51:44 <CodeShark> or at least 3 is p2sh ON mainnet
2183 2014-03-10 19:51:53 <jcrubino> touche
2184 2014-03-10 19:52:03 <CodeShark> 1 is p2pkh
2185 2014-03-10 19:52:12 <jcrubino> 3 for p2sh mainnet script addresses
2186 2014-03-10 19:52:37 <jcrubino> 1 for mainnet standard addresses
2187 2014-03-10 19:52:39 <CodeShark> they're both standard :p
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2189 2014-03-10 19:52:44 <CodeShark> better to say 1 is for pay to pubkey hash
2190 2014-03-10 19:52:49 <CodeShark> and 3 is pay to script hash
2191 2014-03-10 19:53:03 <jcrubino> I thought p2sh was accepted non standard where most non standard tx are denied
2192 2014-03-10 19:53:13 <jcrubino> ok
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2194 2014-03-10 19:54:27 <jgarzik> jcrubino, "non standard" is defined as "not relayed on P2P mesh network by bitcoind."  P2SH script outputs and spends are relayed.
2195 2014-03-10 19:55:07 <jgarzik> P2SH is standard, by that narrow definition
2196 2014-03-10 19:55:18 darkskiez has joined
2197 2014-03-10 19:55:22 <jcrubino> thanks
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2205 2014-03-10 20:03:28 <TD> https://multibit.org/blog/2014/03/10/multibit-downloads-reach-1.5m.html
2206 2014-03-10 20:03:30 <TD> nice!
2207 2014-03-10 20:03:39 <TD> 1.5 million multibits
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2209 2014-03-10 20:05:36 <sipa> Woohoo, over 1 multikilobytes!
2210 2014-03-10 20:05:42 <sipa> Woohoo, over 187 multikilobytes!
2211 2014-03-10 20:06:03 <TD> heh
2212 2014-03-10 20:06:25 <TD> i've still got a way to go to beat my current "number of people who ran my software" record
2213 2014-03-10 20:06:30 <TD> but this is a  nice start
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2237 2014-03-10 20:24:19 <goatpig> hi
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2239 2014-03-10 20:24:31 <goatpig> anything in 0.9.0 changed regarding 0 conf chaining?
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2265 2014-03-10 20:46:26 <nickler> exit
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2274 2014-03-10 20:52:33 <nsh> TD, what was your previous software that was most widely run?
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2276 2014-03-10 20:53:15 <TD> a javascript anti-spam framework
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2278 2014-03-10 20:53:24 <TD> it's used on every google login page, and on adsense
2279 2014-03-10 20:53:31 <TD> so by now it's been run by basically everyone who uses the web
2280 2014-03-10 20:53:39 <TD> it's a bit hard to beat that
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2282 2014-03-10 20:54:11 <nsh> fair play :)
2283 2014-03-10 20:54:35 <TD> Anduck: sorry i forgot about your request
2284 2014-03-10 20:54:40 <nsh> (so now i know who i've been shaking my fist at whenever i try to use google through tor)
2285 2014-03-10 20:54:48 <Anduck> TD: nvm, i received plenty :)
2286 2014-03-10 20:54:49 <TD> Anduck: how many testnet coins do you want and can you give me your addr again? it got lost in the scrollback buffer
2287 2014-03-10 20:54:51 <TD> oh, cool
2288 2014-03-10 20:54:57 <Anduck> thanks anyway
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2290 2014-03-10 20:55:20 <TD> nsh: other tor users? :)
2291 2014-03-10 20:55:32 <nsh> touché
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2299 2014-03-10 20:58:55 <TD> actually, the login system has a somewhat sane approach to tor. or at least tries.
2300 2014-03-10 20:59:06 <TD> i know this because i wrote the part of the login system that handles it
2301 2014-03-10 20:59:14 * nsh nods
2302 2014-03-10 20:59:15 <TD> the issues most tor users have are with captchas on web search
2303 2014-03-10 20:59:23 <TD> unfortunately: different systems that don't talk to each other
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2340 2014-03-10 21:27:58 <CodeShark> what's the easiest way to set up a standalone bitcoin node that still fully supports all RPC without the need for a network connection?
2341 2014-03-10 21:28:11 <warren> I'm seeing the future /Satoshi:0.9.99/
2342 2014-03-10 21:28:25 <CodeShark> I tried regtest, but apparently it isn't what I want
2343 2014-03-10 21:28:39 <CodeShark> I also tried commenting out the connection count checks
2344 2014-03-10 21:31:41 kurtosis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2345 2014-03-10 21:31:47 <CodeShark> if (vNodes.empty() && Params().NetworkID() != CChainParams::REGTEST) and all that stuff
2346 2014-03-10 21:32:03 <CodeShark> I'd like a mode where it operates completely normally except no network connection is required
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2367 2014-03-10 21:53:20 <jgarzik> gar
2368 2014-03-10 21:53:30 <jgarzik> where is multisig-X-of-5-is-standard enforced?
2369 2014-03-10 21:53:37 <jgarzik> I've forgotten, and it is not easily greppable.
2370 2014-03-10 21:53:38 <petertodd> jgarzik: it isn't
2371 2014-03-10 21:53:45 <petertodd> jgarzik: (at least in p2sh)
2372 2014-03-10 21:53:56 <jgarzik> petertodd, non-p2sh
2373 2014-03-10 21:54:59 <CodeShark> GetTxnOutputType is in script.cpp
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2375 2014-03-10 21:55:20 <petertodd> CodeShark: no
2376 2014-03-10 21:55:42 <petertodd> jgarzik: in IsStandard(0 in script.cpp
2377 2014-03-10 21:55:56 <petertodd> *IsStandard()
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2380 2014-03-10 21:56:33 <petertodd> FWIW I'm doing up a pull-req right now to up the 500 byte scriptSig limit, fix the dummy byte mutability problem, and a few other things
2381 2014-03-10 21:56:38 <CodeShark> I was just saying that's probably a good place to start if you want grepping :)
2382 2014-03-10 21:56:43 <CodeShark> I didn't know either
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2387 2014-03-10 21:59:49 <jgarzik> There's the x-of-3 rule, right there in front of me.  I swear I looked at IsStandard first ;p
2388 2014-03-10 22:00:00 r0b1nh00d has joined
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2390 2014-03-10 22:00:07 <r0b1nh00d> Hi all
2391 2014-03-10 22:00:17 <jgarzik> petertodd, cool
2392 2014-03-10 22:00:59 <r0b1nh00d> I have a problem
2393 2014-03-10 22:01:06 <r0b1nh00d> can someone help me with it?
2394 2014-03-10 22:01:23 <jcorgan> magic eight ball says no
2395 2014-03-10 22:01:53 <r0b1nh00d> maybe someone else can say yes D
2396 2014-03-10 22:01:54 <r0b1nh00d> :D
2397 2014-03-10 22:02:04 _ImI_ has joined
2398 2014-03-10 22:02:18 <CodeShark> don't ask if you can ask - just ask
2399 2014-03-10 22:02:50 <r0b1nh00d> I downloaded the bitcoin project source code from github, built it on ubuntu
2400 2014-03-10 22:03:19 <r0b1nh00d> I don't know what to do next to run it, I can't find any executables
2401 2014-03-10 22:03:24 Zifre has joined
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2403 2014-03-10 22:03:35 <sipa> r0b1nh00d: #bitcoin please
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2406 2014-03-10 22:04:23 <sipa> r0b1nh00d: oh, no executable? but building works?
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2412 2014-03-10 22:12:29 <r0b1nh00d> sipa: Thanks I solved my issue there :)
2413 2014-03-10 22:13:47 <r0b1nh00d> building works but I didn't know where to find the executables
2414 2014-03-10 22:13:57 <r0b1nh00d> I found them under src/qt/
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2416 2014-03-10 22:14:17 <r0b1nh00d> it's a weird place I thought there should be a bin/ or a build/ directory
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2421 2014-03-10 22:15:09 <sipa> they're built in their own source directories, which is one convention but not the only
2422 2014-03-10 22:15:35 <CodeShark> it's the default convention :p
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2425 2014-03-10 22:16:43 <r0b1nh00d> Aha I see, thanks
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2446 2014-03-10 22:29:19 <PRab> There been any work on getting pruning up and running recently?
2447 2014-03-10 22:29:24 <PRab> I just read through http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.bitcoin.devel/2065
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2450 2014-03-10 22:30:24 <gmaxwell> PRab: requires fixes to synchronization and improvements to leveldb stability as prereqs. (though perhaps the latter is now adequate)
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2454 2014-03-10 22:31:17 <gmaxwell> some progress has been made on the sync improvements. There was a big rewrite which was too much to take at once, and its been split up and partially merged now.
2455 2014-03-10 22:31:26 <PRab> synchronization as in a controlled roll out  or as in mutexes and such?
2456 2014-03-10 22:31:42 <gmaxwell> No. As in fetching blocks from other peers.
2457 2014-03-10 22:31:54 <PRab> oh, sync as in catching up to the head of the blockchain.
2458 2014-03-10 22:31:55 Luke-Jr has joined
2459 2014-03-10 22:32:00 <PRab> Got it.
2460 2014-03-10 22:32:21 <PRab> I just saw 1 associated pull req. got merged in the past couple of days.
2461 2014-03-10 22:32:50 <gmaxwell> There were some other changes a couple months back, also broken out of the syncup rewrite.
2462 2014-03-10 22:33:20 <PRab> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3514
2463 2014-03-10 22:33:37 <PRab> Will that end up being in .9? Or did it miss the merge window?
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2466 2014-03-10 22:34:54 <gmaxwell> I assume we'll pull that into 0.9. Without it 32 bit systems have oom problems syncing the chain (among other issues).
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2468 2014-03-10 22:35:51 <PRab> ok, I'm always curious whats going on.
2469 2014-03-10 22:36:09 <aquarat> yay @ 32bit... like armhf :P
2470 2014-03-10 22:36:13 <PRab> I wish I had more free time to contribute, but life always gets in the way.
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2472 2014-03-10 22:37:59 <gmaxwell> aquarat: it doesn't happen every time, and if it does you can just restart and continue— so it's not the total end of the world but pretty ugly.
2473 2014-03-10 22:38:39 <aquarat> I've been running the bitcoin-qt on an armhf machine... and it works pretty well
2474 2014-03-10 22:38:52 <aquarat> version 0.9.0 from git
2475 2014-03-10 22:38:55 <gmaxwell> (and only an issue on IBD)
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2477 2014-03-10 22:40:07 <aquarat> Initial Blockchain Download ?
2478 2014-03-10 22:41:04 <aquarat> the armhf machine my client is running on already had a relatively complete blockchain copy, it just needed to re-index
2479 2014-03-10 22:41:28 <aquarat> during which is used a small portion of the machine's RAM
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2481 2014-03-10 22:42:05 <aquarat> I think it was less than 500 MB
2482 2014-03-10 22:42:40 <gmaxwell> yes, a reindex is not a re-download. :)
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2484 2014-03-10 22:42:54 <aquarat> :P
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2561 2014-03-10 23:53:56 lysodoge is now known as shet
2562 2014-03-10 23:54:12 Gyps has joined
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2569 2014-03-10 23:57:56 <amiller> Luke-Jr, your seed appears to be down dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
2570 2014-03-10 23:58:13 TD has joined
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