1 2014-03-13 00:00:31 <gavinandresen> … I need to write up gitian building with vagrant+VirtualBox, it's stunningly easy....
   2 2014-03-13 00:01:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Anyone able to identify what happened with https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs/pull/19 ?
   3 2014-03-13 00:01:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(paging git knowers)
   4 2014-03-13 00:01:37 <warren> gavinandresen: help in what way?
   5 2014-03-13 00:02:02 <gavinandresen> warren: help as in "gitian build then submit pull requests to gitian.sigs so we have a diversity of people building"
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   7 2014-03-13 00:02:59 <warren> gavinandresen: volunteers come and go,  I have a few non-dev litecoin volunteers and non-coin engineer friends who can do it, but you really want to rely on "Warren and his friends" for this?
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  10 2014-03-13 00:03:25 <gavinandresen> warren: no, but the more the merrier
  11 2014-03-13 00:03:45 <coryfields> gavinandresen: i suppose i should get myself on there as well
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  13 2014-03-13 00:03:50 <gavinandresen> warren: if it is painful at all, then I'll only ask for final releases, not release candidates
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  15 2014-03-13 00:04:22 <warren> gavinandresen: yeah, definitely get coryfields in, it's time to add his GPG key too.
  16 2014-03-13 00:04:22 <coryfields> hmm, i wonder if jgarzik is going to the atl meetup tomorrow. If so, I could get a trusted sig
  17 2014-03-13 00:04:37 <coryfields> jgarzik: any chance ^^ ?
  18 2014-03-13 00:04:47 <raminnoodle> Is there a ubuntu lightweight bitcoin client that has all functioning rpc commands? Iv tried using blockchain.info and it worked great until you find out internal coin moves still cost a tx fee.
  19 2014-03-13 00:05:23 <sipa> raistlinthewiz: no
  20 2014-03-13 00:05:25 <sipa> eh
  21 2014-03-13 00:05:27 <sipa> raminnoodle: no
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  23 2014-03-13 00:05:46 <sipa> raminnoodle: depending on which rpc commands you need, it may actually be impossible for a lightweight client
  24 2014-03-13 00:05:54 <raminnoodle> yea i see what your saying
  25 2014-03-13 00:06:02 <sipa> what do you need in particular?
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  28 2014-03-13 00:06:30 <warren> There's an effort to make electrum client-side into a daemon with RPC commands enough to watch addresses for payment processors and coinpunk-like things.
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  30 2014-03-13 00:06:58 <raminnoodle> man.. blockchain.info was such a good fit until i found out when I send coins.. I can also get a recieveing tx with the remainder of what wasnt sent
  31 2014-03-13 00:07:19 <Diablo-D3> raminnoodle: thats called change
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  33 2014-03-13 00:07:32 <raminnoodle> yea but there is not identifyer to let me know
  34 2014-03-13 00:07:50 <raminnoodle> it looks like i just got a new incoming transaction
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  36 2014-03-13 00:07:56 <melik> any reason why bitcoin deals with change addresses?
  37 2014-03-13 00:08:19 <melik> why not just send the specified amount and leave the leftover intact?
  38 2014-03-13 00:08:27 <raminnoodle> i only sent .4
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  40 2014-03-13 00:08:57 <raminnoodle> my account had .45 total and after I sent the .4 I got a incoming of .5 minus tx fees
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  42 2014-03-13 00:09:34 <raminnoodle> I believe its just the way the blockchain.info wallet works
  43 2014-03-13 00:09:45 <PRab> raminnoodle: That always happens... It doesn't matter what client.
  44 2014-03-13 00:09:49 <raminnoodle> oh really
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  46 2014-03-13 00:10:00 <raminnoodle> so how do any merchants actually properly read incoming transactions
  47 2014-03-13 00:10:10 <raminnoodle> without getting tricked by change
  48 2014-03-13 00:10:33 <PRab> Give a unique address for every transaction.
  49 2014-03-13 00:10:39 <raminnoodle> I do
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  52 2014-03-13 00:11:21 <PRab> Ok, so if its an address that you gave out, then take the associated action. If its not, then just assume that its change.
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  54 2014-03-13 00:11:40 <PRab> (Oversimplified, but it gives the idea)
  55 2014-03-13 00:11:48 <raminnoodle> yea.. not to clean i guess
  56 2014-03-13 00:11:50 <warren> gavinandresen: I've been swamped lately but now I have other engineers and an intern to help me, I'll see if one of us has time to organize a gitian group.  Builders/signers can sign up to a list and projects can ask for sigs.
  57 2014-03-13 00:12:09 <warren> gavinandresen: presumably we're not the only project that needs it
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  59 2014-03-13 00:12:25 <Diablo-D3> [08:06:40] <raminnoodle> yea but there is not identifyer to let me know
  60 2014-03-13 00:12:25 <Diablo-D3> [08:06:58] <raminnoodle> it looks like i just got a new incoming transaction
  61 2014-03-13 00:12:27 <Diablo-D3> this is by design
  62 2014-03-13 00:12:38 <warren> gavinandresen: with the huge quantity of deployments of multibit it would be good to make that a deterministic build too.
  63 2014-03-13 00:13:00 <raminnoodle> with that way.. i shouldnt even use sincelastblock
  64 2014-03-13 00:13:01 <PRab> raminnoodle: I'm not sure about rpc, but using the web interface, you can use a custom transaction to send the change to a known address.
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  66 2014-03-13 00:13:12 <gavinandresen> warren: yes, definitely.
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  68 2014-03-13 00:14:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|warren: The only thing I can think of with the list is that it might get annoying managing all kinds of dependencies
  69 2014-03-13 00:14:47 <warren> wangbus_: hey, you folks are good at java and docker, might be a good mini-project to figure out how to make a deterministic java build of multibit and its dependencies.
  70 2014-03-13 00:14:55 <dowah> Anyone know of a channel with a bitcoin-qt 0 conformations for 3 sent payments? Been setting there for 3 days..
  71 2014-03-13 00:15:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(for example, Bitcoin Core has a build process consisting of 8 gbuilds)
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  73 2014-03-13 00:15:41 <warren> gavinandresen: I've been thinking about docker for gitian instead of kvm or lxc.
  74 2014-03-13 00:15:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, an easier, more streamlined way to submit sigs than "fork a repo, commit to it, PR" would be great
  75 2014-03-13 00:16:05 <ahmed__> hi guys
  76 2014-03-13 00:16:22 <ahmed__> does anyone here know how i can calc what the diff1 should be for a given algo
  77 2014-03-13 00:16:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|* Please note Docker is currently under heavy development. It should not be used in production (yet).
  78 2014-03-13 00:16:55 <ahmed__> (think my bitcoin stratum is broken)
  79 2014-03-13 00:17:02 <warren> michagogo|cloud: I wouldn't trust it for security, but for dev it's great
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  84 2014-03-13 00:20:53 <raminnoodle> does anyone know of a good write up on how to propely create an accounting system that uses the rpc commands
  85 2014-03-13 00:22:01 <warren> anyone know if bitcoinj + Multibit are buildable with openjdk at the moment?
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  87 2014-03-13 00:24:52 <Aurigae> not sure if relevant https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg5668106#msg5668106
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 101 2014-03-13 00:30:43 <dowah> Is there anyone here that can read the blockchain and understand it?
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 110 2014-03-13 00:31:49 <Adlai> nah
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 116 2014-03-13 00:32:03 <Adlai> dowah: what's your question?
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 124 2014-03-13 00:34:21 <dowah> Adlai There is a strange transaction in my wallet. Shows entire balance transferred to an address that isnt mine. But my balance is fine in my wallet. But I cant seem to send anything out. 3 sends and 0 conf for any of them. Three days now just sitting there.
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 126 2014-03-13 00:35:10 <dowah> I did a blockchain search for that address and has plenty of transactions on it
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 152 2014-03-13 00:43:33 <perhaps6900> Quick question- could bitcoin 0.9 accidentally create a hard fork when it comes out?
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 173 2014-03-13 00:52:49 <sipa> perhaps6900: of course
 174 2014-03-13 00:52:54 <sipa> any bug could
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 188 2014-03-13 00:57:45 <perhaps6900> sipa: is it because it's a move from 0.8 to 0.9 or is there this possibility with every minor update like from 0.8.4 to 0.8.5?
 189 2014-03-13 00:57:59 <perhaps6900> oh and thanks for answering :)
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 191 2014-03-13 00:58:40 <gavinandresen> perhaps6900: the 0.7 releases could (theoretically) have created a hard fork on their own, even if everybody was running exactly the same version.
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 200 2014-03-13 01:03:10 <SomeoneWeird> gavinandresen, that doesn't sound promising :P
 201 2014-03-13 01:03:13 <perhaps6900> gavinandresen: Ok I see
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 204 2014-03-13 01:04:00 <sipa> perhaps6900: any change can
 205 2014-03-13 01:04:13 <sipa> but larger changes are of course more likely to introduce bugs
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 219 2014-03-13 01:13:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm
 220 2014-03-13 01:13:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Looks like the qt gbuild is failing
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 222 2014-03-13 01:14:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It builds the 32-bit qt
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 224 2014-03-13 01:14:09 <rasmuzen> what happens when we mine all the coins?
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 226 2014-03-13 01:14:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It unzips the 64-bit deps
 227 2014-03-13 01:14:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|rasmuzen: #bitcoin
 228 2014-03-13 01:14:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Then it CDs to /home/ubuntu/64
 229 2014-03-13 01:15:03 <rasmuzen> yes sir
 230 2014-03-13 01:15:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And then fails at some point during the untarring of the qt source
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 232 2014-03-13 01:15:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"No space left on device"
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 240 2014-03-13 01:20:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why is this happening? I've gbuild qt before and had it work
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 242 2014-03-13 01:21:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gbuilt*
 243 2014-03-13 01:21:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does that mean what it appears to, that the container is full?
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 245 2014-03-13 01:22:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What might have changed? o_O
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 247 2014-03-13 01:23:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Anyway, I'll keep trying to figure it out another time
 248 2014-03-13 01:23:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's 3:21 AM here :-/
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 261 2014-03-13 01:34:06 <warren> what's the configre option to build only bitcoind?
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 263 2014-03-13 01:35:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|--without-gui or something like that
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 265 2014-03-13 01:35:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|./configure --help
 266 2014-03-13 01:35:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|it's in there
 267 2014-03-13 01:35:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And on that note, goodnight
 268 2014-03-13 01:35:51 <warren> thanks
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 294 2014-03-13 01:57:39 <warren> locally built bitcoind with disablewallet on Fedora 20 is using a lot less RAM than earlier.
 295 2014-03-13 01:57:43 <warren> not sure what changed
 296 2014-03-13 01:58:55 OperatorSyn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 297 2014-03-13 01:59:44 <CheckDavid> https://github.com/casascius/Bitcoin-Address-Utility <- how does a noon use this?
 298 2014-03-13 01:59:45 ziggamon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 299 2014-03-13 02:00:20 <SomeoneWeird> compile it?
 300 2014-03-13 02:00:22 raid5_ has joined
 301 2014-03-13 02:00:25 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 302 2014-03-13 02:03:45 raid5 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 303 2014-03-13 02:04:03 <Luke-Jr> CheckDavid: wtf is it?
 304 2014-03-13 02:04:56 <rasmuzen> does the json rpc api support getting the balance for any public address?
 305 2014-03-13 02:05:13 <Luke-Jr> rasmuzen: no such thing
 306 2014-03-13 02:05:18 <flammit> the trolling continues
 307 2014-03-13 02:05:42 <Luke-Jr> flammit: no trolling allowed, thanks
 308 2014-03-13 02:05:53 <rasmuzen> Luke-Jr: no such thing as what
 309 2014-03-13 02:05:58 <flammit> np wilco
 310 2014-03-13 02:06:02 <Luke-Jr> rasmuzen: addresses do not have balances
 311 2014-03-13 02:06:11 <rasmuzen> okay
 312 2014-03-13 02:06:27 <rasmuzen> you know exactly what i'm asking
 313 2014-03-13 02:06:33 <sipa> well, they do have a well-defined balance (the sum of the values of the unspent transaction outputs assigned to it), but that's generally not very useful
 314 2014-03-13 02:06:42 <Luke-Jr> you're asking for a ranodm meaningless number
 315 2014-03-13 02:06:46 <sipa> as it is not how the protocol works
 316 2014-03-13 02:07:06 <CheckDavid> Luke-Jr: it's a brain wallet and wallet tool from casascius
 317 2014-03-13 02:07:06 <rasmuzen> Luke-Jr: why?
 318 2014-03-13 02:07:11 <Luke-Jr> sipa: not really
 319 2014-03-13 02:07:12 <sipa> and not how addresses are intended to be used
 320 2014-03-13 02:07:13 wallet42 has joined
 321 2014-03-13 02:07:22 <Luke-Jr> CheckDavid: then the answer is "don't use it"
 322 2014-03-13 02:07:39 jazper_ is now known as jazper-
 323 2014-03-13 02:07:45 <Luke-Jr> rasmuzen: because addresses only receive, they don't hold or spend bitcoins
 324 2014-03-13 02:07:48 smash has joined
 325 2014-03-13 02:07:57 sipa has left ()
 326 2014-03-13 02:07:58 <rasmuzen> okay what holds bitcoins?
 327 2014-03-13 02:07:59 <Luke-Jr> rasmuzen: by definition, a balance needs two directions: credit and debit
 328 2014-03-13 02:08:02 <Luke-Jr> wallets
 329 2014-03-13 02:08:14 <rasmuzen> what do wallets hold?
 330 2014-03-13 02:08:23 <Luke-Jr> rasmuzen: coins
 331 2014-03-13 02:08:30 jazper- has quit (Changing host)
 332 2014-03-13 02:08:30 jazper- has joined
 333 2014-03-13 02:08:33 <rasmuzen> lol. besides coins
 334 2014-03-13 02:08:47 <rasmuzen> private keys?
 335 2014-03-13 02:09:06 <Luke-Jr> rasmuzen: generally they also store a record of transactions involved in them, and whatever private data they need to spend their coins
 336 2014-03-13 02:09:12 <Luke-Jr> sometimes that is private keys
 337 2014-03-13 02:09:30 <rasmuzen> okay
 338 2014-03-13 02:09:34 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 339 2014-03-13 02:09:36 <Luke-Jr> though it's generally better if it's just a single private master seed
 340 2014-03-13 02:10:24 <rasmuzen> so is block chain mistaken when it reports a balance associated with an address?
 341 2014-03-13 02:10:37 <rasmuzen> eg https://blockchain.info/address/1F1f9TcJam2CZG5uvDKewJGsrhsyP7awUP
 342 2014-03-13 02:10:39 <rasmuzen> blockchain.info*
 343 2014-03-13 02:11:28 <Luke-Jr> rasmuzen: yes
 344 2014-03-13 02:11:31 raid5_ is now known as raid5
 345 2014-03-13 02:11:38 <Luke-Jr> blockchain.info is full of confusing misinformation
 346 2014-03-13 02:11:51 <rasmuzen> Luke-Jr: I disagree
 347 2014-03-13 02:12:09 <rasmuzen> it is full of abstractions to the implementation of bitcoin
 348 2014-03-13 02:12:25 smash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 349 2014-03-13 02:12:30 <Luke-Jr> rasmuzen: nonsensical abstractions that have no use
 350 2014-03-13 02:12:35 <rasmuzen> not true
 351 2014-03-13 02:12:54 <rasmuzen> I can send money to a public address and then check my balance at that address with blockchain.info and then send from that address using its private key
 352 2014-03-13 02:13:05 <Luke-Jr> no
 353 2014-03-13 02:13:08 <rasmuzen> yes
 354 2014-03-13 02:13:10 <Luke-Jr> you cannot send from an address, ever
 355 2014-03-13 02:13:10 <rasmuzen> how not?
 356 2014-03-13 02:13:19 <rasmuzen> it's an abstraction
 357 2014-03-13 02:13:26 <rasmuzen> of what's actually happening behind the scenes
 358 2014-03-13 02:13:31 <Luke-Jr> because addresses are only used to receive
 359 2014-03-13 02:13:35 <Luke-Jr> never to send
 360 2014-03-13 02:13:46 <rasmuzen> I send from the address which holds the coins using the private key
 361 2014-03-13 02:13:51 <Luke-Jr> no
 362 2014-03-13 02:13:52 spinza has quit (Disconnected by services)
 363 2014-03-13 02:13:52 spin123456 has joined
 364 2014-03-13 02:13:55 <rasmuzen> lol
 365 2014-03-13 02:14:13 <Luke-Jr> addresses do not hold coins
 366 2014-03-13 02:14:53 <Luke-Jr> wallets do
 367 2014-03-13 02:15:08 <rasmuzen> a wallet can contain exactly one address and private key
 368 2014-03-13 02:15:18 <Luke-Jr> which are two different things
 369 2014-03-13 02:15:28 lalopalo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 370 2014-03-13 02:15:34 <rasmuzen> how would you find the balance of the wallet?
 371 2014-03-13 02:16:08 <Luke-Jr> count the total value of all coins it holds
 372 2014-03-13 02:16:21 <rasmuzen> how do you know how many coins a wallet holds/
 373 2014-03-13 02:16:36 <Luke-Jr> you just do
 374 2014-03-13 02:16:53 <rasmuzen> and addresses just do hold balances.
 375 2014-03-13 02:16:55 <rasmuzen> by the same logic
 376 2014-03-13 02:16:58 <Luke-Jr> no
 377 2014-03-13 02:17:01 smash has joined
 378 2014-03-13 02:17:01 <rasmuzen> then answer my question
 379 2014-03-13 02:17:05 <Luke-Jr> addresses don't hold coins
 380 2014-03-13 02:17:06 <rasmuzen> how do you know how many coins a wallet holds?
 381 2014-03-13 02:17:06 sipa has joined
 382 2014-03-13 02:17:23 <Luke-Jr> rasmuzen: the same way you know how many coins are in your pocket
 383 2014-03-13 02:17:35 <rasmuzen> how do you know programmatically
 384 2014-03-13 02:17:44 <rasmuzen> how does bitcoind know the value of your wallet
 385 2014-03-13 02:17:44 <Luke-Jr> you keep a database of them
 386 2014-03-13 02:17:55 spin123456 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 387 2014-03-13 02:17:57 <rasmuzen> how do you detect when coins have been deposited into your wallet?
 388 2014-03-13 02:18:11 <rasmuzen> when they're sent to a public address associated with your wallet, perhaps?
 389 2014-03-13 02:18:17 noosius has quit ()
 390 2014-03-13 02:18:19 <sipa> yes
 391 2014-03-13 02:18:20 <Luke-Jr> when you know how to construct a script to spend htem
 392 2014-03-13 02:18:56 <sipa> you keep track of unspent outputs in your wallet; incoming transactions credit them
 393 2014-03-13 02:19:03 <sipa> outgoing transactions consume them
 394 2014-03-13 02:19:08 <sipa> but you keep track of them per coin
 395 2014-03-13 02:19:21 <sipa> what address they are assigned to doesn't really matter once they're in your wallet
 396 2014-03-13 02:19:39 <rasmuzen> say I have two public addresses and two private keys
 397 2014-03-13 02:19:45 <Luke-Jr> s/are assigned to/were received using/
 398 2014-03-13 02:19:47 <rasmuzen> all utxos are assigned to either one address or the other
 399 2014-03-13 02:19:53 <sipa> yes
 400 2014-03-13 02:19:53 <Luke-Jr> rasmuzen: no
 401 2014-03-13 02:19:55 <rasmuzen> conceptually, addresses have balances.
 402 2014-03-13 02:19:58 <Luke-Jr> UTXOs are not assigned to addresses
 403 2014-03-13 02:20:25 <rasmuzen> in order to spent UTXOs that were received by 1 public address, you must use the private key associated with that private address
 404 2014-03-13 02:20:33 hmsimha has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 405 2014-03-13 02:20:45 <rasmuzen> so conceptually, the wallet doesn't hold a balance, the wallet holds a set of addresses which hold balances and it knows the private key for each which has sending privileges
 406 2014-03-13 02:20:54 <Luke-Jr> no
 407 2014-03-13 02:20:56 <Luke-Jr> you're wrong.
 408 2014-03-13 02:21:09 <rasmuzen> I'm not wrong, we disagree.
 409 2014-03-13 02:21:09 <flammit> rasmuzen:  in an extreme case, i can create a transaction which creates an outpoint that could be spent by anyone.  would you add that balance to everyone?
 410 2014-03-13 02:21:18 sipa has quit (Changing host)
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 414 2014-03-13 02:21:33 Luke-Jr has joined
 415 2014-03-13 02:22:02 <BCB> hs
 416 2014-03-13 02:22:33 <BCB> You guys make it so hard for dev's who want ot participate
 417 2014-03-13 02:22:35 <rasmuzen> flammit: elaborate
 418 2014-03-13 02:22:47 nullp has joined
 419 2014-03-13 02:22:49 <rasmuzen> flammit: how would you create such a transaction
 420 2014-03-13 02:22:52 ericmuys_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 421 2014-03-13 02:23:04 <sipa> rasmuzen: in reality, addresses don't exist at all on the protocol level
 422 2014-03-13 02:23:21 <sipa> rasmuzen: every transaction output holds a script that is defines the conditions under which it can be spent
 423 2014-03-13 02:23:22 <rasmuzen> sipa: completely understood.
 424 2014-03-13 02:23:23 <Luke-Jr> rasmuzen: a null UTXO script would suffice
 425 2014-03-13 02:23:26 ericmuyser has joined
 426 2014-03-13 02:23:35 <sipa> rasmuzen: addresses are shorthands for some common script templates
 427 2014-03-13 02:23:36 lagarde has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 428 2014-03-13 02:23:36 <flammit> i'm not a wizard, but i can put a utxo script of OP_1 or something... or even empty.
 429 2014-03-13 02:23:42 <sipa> rasmuzen: but you can have others
 430 2014-03-13 02:23:43 <flammit> i could be wrong
 431 2014-03-13 02:23:51 <sipa> rasmuzen: including a script, as flammit says, that is always valid
 432 2014-03-13 02:24:07 <sipa> which - accordinging to your definition - now belongs to everyone's wallet
 433 2014-03-13 02:24:07 <rasmuzen> sipa: but if we were only worried about these script templates
 434 2014-03-13 02:24:28 <sipa> the reality is that the wallet itself defines what it cares about, and accepts as crediting transaction
 435 2014-03-13 02:24:31 <rasmuzen> sipa: then conceptually you could say addresses have balances
 436 2014-03-13 02:24:44 <sipa> yes, addresses have balances if you want to look at it that way
 437 2014-03-13 02:24:47 smash_ has joined
 438 2014-03-13 02:24:49 <sipa> it's perfectly well defined
 439 2014-03-13 02:24:57 <rasmuzen> thanks.
 440 2014-03-13 02:25:04 <sipa> however, it confuses people often to explain it like that
 441 2014-03-13 02:25:07 <Luke-Jr> rasmuzen: you could, but they you're redefining "address" and essentially making an altcoin that just uses the same blockchain
 442 2014-03-13 02:25:15 ematiu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 443 2014-03-13 02:25:18 <Luke-Jr> then*
 444 2014-03-13 02:25:18 [Author] has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
 445 2014-03-13 02:25:19 <sipa> as it makes them think that transactions move value between addresses
 446 2014-03-13 02:25:22 <rasmuzen> back to my original question now that we've come to an understanding
 447 2014-03-13 02:25:22 <rasmuzen> does the json rpc api support getting the balance for any public address?
 448 2014-03-13 02:25:31 <sipa> rasmuzen: no
 449 2014-03-13 02:25:34 Application has joined
 450 2014-03-13 02:25:41 [Author] has joined
 451 2014-03-13 02:25:43 <rasmuzen> if I wanted to do that, I'd have to parse the entire block chain
 452 2014-03-13 02:25:43 <flammit> it's a little confusing because there's a lot of flexibility built into the bitcoin protocol
 453 2014-03-13 02:25:46 <sipa> rasmuzen: that would require maintaining an index of all transactions by address
 454 2014-03-13 02:25:48 spin123456 has joined
 455 2014-03-13 02:25:48 spinza has quit (Disconnected by services)
 456 2014-03-13 02:25:53 <Luke-Jr> rasmuzen: the JSON RPC in bitcoind is for Bitcoin, which does not work with your non-standard misinterpretation/redefintiion
 457 2014-03-13 02:26:06 <sipa> rasmuzen: while by default we don't even maintain a transaction index at all
 458 2014-03-13 02:26:09 <rasmuzen> Luke-Jr: I'm no longer interested in your opinion, we disagree, thanks.
 459 2014-03-13 02:26:48 <rasmuzen> sipa: so the only way to compute such a thing would be to parse the entire block chain?
 460 2014-03-13 02:26:49 <Luke-Jr> rasmuzen: it's not my "opinion", it's how bitcoin works.
 461 2014-03-13 02:26:57 twobitcoins_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 462 2014-03-13 02:27:10 OperatorSyn has joined
 463 2014-03-13 02:27:21 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 464 2014-03-13 02:27:33 twobitcoins_ has joined
 465 2014-03-13 02:27:45 <sipa> rasmuzen: it's how it would be done, even if there was an index :)
 466 2014-03-13 02:27:46 banghouse has joined
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 468 2014-03-13 02:28:04 ryanxcha_ has joined
 469 2014-03-13 02:28:12 <rasmuzen> sipa: right, but I'd like to do this. I'm asking if there's a convenient API on bitcoind or if I have to do it myself.
 470 2014-03-13 02:28:25 smash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 471 2014-03-13 02:29:00 <kanzure> so you want this rpc call to be long-running?
 472 2014-03-13 02:29:25 InsiderJ_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 473 2014-03-13 02:29:31 <sipa> no such RPC exists, no
 474 2014-03-13 02:29:36 <rasmuzen> sipa: thanks
 475 2014-03-13 02:29:49 <sipa> you can use getblock / getrawtransaction (with -txindex) to iterate all blocks and all transactions in them
 476 2014-03-13 02:29:57 spinza has joined
 477 2014-03-13 02:29:58 <sipa> but i assume this would take... days?
 478 2014-03-13 02:30:15 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 479 2014-03-13 02:30:36 <rasmuzen> sipa; yeah I plan to do it once and maintain a giant index
 480 2014-03-13 02:30:51 spin123456 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 481 2014-03-13 02:30:52 <kanzure> i dunno if that would handle reorgs well
 482 2014-03-13 02:31:02 <rasmuzen> and then keep the index up to date as new transactions come in
 483 2014-03-13 02:31:05 <rasmuzen> kanzure: how do you mean?
 484 2014-03-13 02:31:11 <sipa> may i ask why you need this?
 485 2014-03-13 02:31:16 <flammit> you can do that, but yes, as kanzure said be sure to be able to handle cases when blocks are disconnected
 486 2014-03-13 02:31:21 ryanxcharles has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 487 2014-03-13 02:32:00 <rasmuzen> sipa: say I'd like to implement this page myself: https://blockchain.info/address/1F1f9TcJam2CZG5uvDKewJGsrhsyP7awUP
 488 2014-03-13 02:32:09 ryanxcha_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 489 2014-03-13 02:32:14 <sipa> then you indeed have no way around such an index
 490 2014-03-13 02:32:20 <sipa> but why would you want such a page? :)
 491 2014-03-13 02:32:58 hmmma has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 492 2014-03-13 02:33:49 <rasmuzen> sipa: I'm working on a bitcoin related website that needs that feature
 493 2014-03-13 02:34:24 Application has joined
 494 2014-03-13 02:34:28 <sipa> unless for debug reasons, i'd consider that broken
 495 2014-03-13 02:34:49 <pigeons> curious why it needs the feature
 496 2014-03-13 02:35:14 <kanzure> i'm pretty sure that blockchain.info is not doing what you think it is doing
 497 2014-03-13 02:35:25 <BCB> how else could you look up an address with out relying on a third party?
 498 2014-03-13 02:35:27 <Luke-Jr> (I told you so)
 499 2014-03-13 02:35:42 <rasmuzen> sipa: why?
 500 2014-03-13 02:35:49 lagarde has joined
 501 2014-03-13 02:36:09 <sipa> rasmuzen: because i can't imagine any use case that requires such a huge index
 502 2014-03-13 02:36:25 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 503 2014-03-13 02:36:33 <sipa> rasmuzen: and building infrastructure that relies on such indexed blockchains to be present is imho a problem for bitcoin's ecosystem's scalability
 504 2014-03-13 02:36:46 <sipa> there are efficient ways for doing pretty much everything
 505 2014-03-13 02:37:10 <sipa> sites like blockchain.info make it seem like an easy solution
 506 2014-03-13 02:37:16 <sipa> but it's a very demanding one
 507 2014-03-13 02:37:24 <BCB> sipa are you saying a party should not be interested in an address that it did not send or receive
 508 2014-03-13 02:37:26 <kanzure> i would guess they are pre-computing everything
 509 2014-03-13 02:37:34 <rasmuzen> kanzure: I think blockchain.info is parsing the entire block chain and maintaining a giant index of all transactions and UTXOs associated with each address and just reading that when you make the request
 510 2014-03-13 02:37:39 <sipa> BCB: yes
 511 2014-03-13 02:37:51 <BCB> sipa Interesting.  Never thought of it like that
 512 2014-03-13 02:38:04 <sipa> addresses are identifiers for your keys
 513 2014-03-13 02:38:16 <sipa> what you do with them is internal to your wallet
 514 2014-03-13 02:38:17 TheBison has quit (Quit: TheBison)
 515 2014-03-13 02:38:30 debiantoruser has joined
 516 2014-03-13 02:38:34 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 517 2014-03-13 02:38:35 <BCB> sipa so parsing the block goes against the idea of the decentralization of the protocol?
 518 2014-03-13 02:38:42 <BCB> *blockchain
 519 2014-03-13 02:38:43 ematiu has joined
 520 2014-03-13 02:38:46 <sipa> i wouldn't go that far
 521 2014-03-13 02:38:54 <BCB> sipa where would you stop??
 522 2014-03-13 02:38:55 <sipa> but i just prefer ways to avoid it
 523 2014-03-13 02:39:16 <sipa> the data is there, there may be good reasons to analysie it
 524 2014-03-13 02:39:24 <sipa> but most common use cases don't require it
 525 2014-03-13 02:39:29 <kanzure> i wonder how far back blockchain.info can handle reorgs
 526 2014-03-13 02:39:35 <BCB> sipa so if I'm running a service I should only have interest in the transactions that I take part in.
 527 2014-03-13 02:39:41 <sipa> yes
 528 2014-03-13 02:39:47 <BCB> interesting
 529 2014-03-13 02:39:50 <sipa> (unless forensic analysis, maybe :p)
 530 2014-03-13 02:39:57 <kanzure> for example, if they are only maintaining the last 10 blocks, what happens when there's a 20 block fork
 531 2014-03-13 02:39:59 <BCB> of course
 532 2014-03-13 02:40:10 <sipa> kanzure: you rebuild your database from scratch
 533 2014-03-13 02:40:14 <kanzure> the whole thing?
 534 2014-03-13 02:40:30 <rasmuzen> surely you just rewind...
 535 2014-03-13 02:40:38 <sipa> if you have the rewind data, yes :)
 536 2014-03-13 02:40:56 hmmma has joined
 537 2014-03-13 02:40:59 <dexX7> use checkpoints, don't start from 0
 538 2014-03-13 02:41:05 <kanzure> oh right, you don't know how far back you have to go
 539 2014-03-13 02:41:10 <sipa> dexX7: irrelevant
 540 2014-03-13 02:41:20 <sipa> dexX7: checkpoints don't give you rewind data
 541 2014-03-13 02:41:34 <rasmuzen> how do you know when there's a fork?
 542 2014-03-13 02:41:37 <kanzure> how does bitcoind handle it?
 543 2014-03-13 02:41:48 <kanzure> i mean how does it handle not redoing the entire bdb db
 544 2014-03-13 02:42:14 <Luke-Jr> it doesn't use a bdb db
 545 2014-03-13 02:42:19 <Luke-Jr> (for the blockchain)
 546 2014-03-13 02:42:20 <kanzure> berkeley db?
 547 2014-03-13 02:42:23 <pigeons> it doesnt affect the wallet bdb, the reorg is for block
 548 2014-03-13 02:42:31 <sipa> rasmuzen: there's a chain with more work than the one you're currently on
 549 2014-03-13 02:42:42 <sipa> rasmuzen: then you have to rewind the current one, and connect the new one
 550 2014-03-13 02:42:46 lalopalo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 551 2014-03-13 02:42:54 <sipa> it's only very rarely more than 1 block that you have to rewind
 552 2014-03-13 02:42:55 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 553 2014-03-13 02:42:57 <sipa> but it happens
 554 2014-03-13 02:43:11 <rasmuzen> sipa: right but how do you programmatically detect that a fork happened and you need to rewind
 555 2014-03-13 02:43:12 <sipa> kanzure: it keeps rewind data for the chainstate
 556 2014-03-13 02:43:21 <sipa> rasmuzen: new_chain.work > old_chain.workd
 557 2014-03-13 02:43:25 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 558 2014-03-13 02:43:39 Application has joined
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 560 2014-03-13 02:43:43 spinza has quit (Disconnected by services)
 561 2014-03-13 02:43:43 <sipa> -d
 562 2014-03-13 02:43:49 beachandbytes has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 563 2014-03-13 02:43:52 debiantoruser has joined
 564 2014-03-13 02:44:05 <sipa> (and the new chain is not just a continuation of the old chain)
 565 2014-03-13 02:44:18 <sipa> maybe rather candidate_chain.work > active_chain.work
 566 2014-03-13 02:45:18 TheBison has joined
 567 2014-03-13 02:45:24 <rasmuzen> so it sounds like parsing the blockchain to create this index is straightforward, but maintenance is difficult
 568 2014-03-13 02:45:55 <sipa> yes, you have to be aware of these reorganizations
 569 2014-03-13 02:46:25 <rasmuzen> sipa: how would you handle this problem?
 570 2014-03-13 02:46:32 yubrew has joined
 571 2014-03-13 02:47:11 <sipa> i'd try to avoid the need for creating such an index in the first place
 572 2014-03-13 02:47:30 <sipa> if you can't, use an existing solution for it (abe, for example, but it's... a bit inefficient)
 573 2014-03-13 02:47:32 <rasmuzen> sipa: blockchain.info seems to do it successfully
 574 2014-03-13 02:47:46 <sipa> rasmuzen: so go ask them for their code :D
 575 2014-03-13 02:47:57 <kanzure> huh? why ask them for it?
 576 2014-03-13 02:48:10 <BCB> rasmuzen: Do you want to code a similar service?
 577 2014-03-13 02:48:55 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 578 2014-03-13 02:49:10 non2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 579 2014-03-13 02:49:21 <rasmuzen> BCB: I want to make a product that has features that require such an index
 580 2014-03-13 02:49:31 ziggamon has joined
 581 2014-03-13 02:49:34 <pigeons> yeah that's pretty vague
 582 2014-03-13 02:49:55 <rasmuzen> on purpose
 583 2014-03-13 02:50:04 <BCB> rasmuzen: What product would require those features?
 584 2014-03-13 02:50:04 <pigeons> no one is going to steal your idea
 585 2014-03-13 02:50:06 <pigeons> i promise
 586 2014-03-13 02:50:19 <BCB> I might :-)
 587 2014-03-13 02:50:27 <kanzure> yeah we're all busy stealing pigeons' idea
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 592 2014-03-13 02:52:08 <BCB> kanzure: There is a tool that already does that.
 593 2014-03-13 02:52:24 <BCB> You could fork it.
 594 2014-03-13 02:52:28 <rasmuzen> I have a lot of ideas and I haven't really decided what I want to make but a lot of them end up needing such an index
 595 2014-03-13 02:52:53 <BCB> So you are providing third party services.
 596 2014-03-13 02:52:58 <rasmuzen> definitely
 597 2014-03-13 02:53:05 <rasmuzen> for example
 598 2014-03-13 02:53:12 <rasmuzen> say I wanted to make blockchain.info for other cryptocurrencies
 599 2014-03-13 02:53:13 lalopalo has joined
 600 2014-03-13 02:53:14 <rasmuzen> litecoin, dogecoin
 601 2014-03-13 02:53:17 <rasmuzen> or
 602 2014-03-13 02:53:32 <sipa> litecoin: http://block-explorer.com/
 603 2014-03-13 02:53:46 <sipa> dogecoin: https://dogechain.info/chain/Dogecoin
 604 2014-03-13 02:53:57 <rasmuzen> bbqcoin
 605 2014-03-13 02:53:59 <rasmuzen> auroracoin
 606 2014-03-13 02:54:00 <rasmuzen> coin2
 607 2014-03-13 02:54:15 ziggamon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 608 2014-03-13 02:54:17 ryanxcharles has joined
 609 2014-03-13 02:54:36 <rasmuzen> say I wanted to make a service where you can input all of your public keys for multiple cryptocurrencies and I tell you your current aggregated balance, in USD, of all of your cryptoholdings
 610 2014-03-13 02:55:00 <sipa> use a watch-only wallet
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 612 2014-03-13 02:55:23 <Luke-Jr> also scamcoins are off-topic
 613 2014-03-13 02:55:33 <sipa> though if you wanted to inspect balances involving older transactions, you'll need such an index
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 617 2014-03-13 02:58:11 <rasmuzen> say I wanted to make a web wallet service that abstracts away a lot of the "public address, private key" stuff so that people like our parents don't even need to worry about that stuff
 618 2014-03-13 02:58:30 <BCB> Sipa will a watch only wallet include transactions that you have not sent or received?
 619 2014-03-13 02:58:33 <rasmuzen> I guess in that sense, I can only keep track of addresses that I'm concerned about, but it'd be nice not to
 620 2014-03-13 02:58:43 <BCB> rasmuzen: See hive
 621 2014-03-13 02:58:46 <sipa> BCB: no
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 623 2014-03-13 02:59:15 <rasmuzen> BCB: doesn't look like a web wallet
 624 2014-03-13 02:59:20 gasteve has joined
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 626 2014-03-13 02:59:43 <sipa> rasmuzen: it's an implementation of a wallet which doesn't require an index
 627 2014-03-13 02:59:47 <BCB> rasmuzen: See Coinpunk.
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 631 2014-03-13 03:00:55 <rasmuzen> BCB: coinpunk doesn't look like something our parents can use
 632 2014-03-13 03:01:19 <BCB> It open source. Fork it.
 633 2014-03-13 03:03:05 <rasmuzen> BCB: coinpunk doesn't generate that index I'm looking for
 634 2014-03-13 03:03:21 <BCB> I'm creating my own pre-mined coin.
 635 2014-03-13 03:03:33 <rasmuzen> say I want to write the code that will generate and maintain that index and open source that and make a website that has an HTTP API that people can hit
 636 2014-03-13 03:03:50 <BCB> See bitcore
 637 2014-03-13 03:04:12 <BCB>  /j #bitcore
 638 2014-03-13 03:04:45 <BCB> My coin is called luke-jrCoin
 639 2014-03-13 03:05:45 <Luke-Jr> /kick bcb
 640 2014-03-13 03:05:54 <BCB> Bye
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 649 2014-03-13 03:12:19 <antephialtic> what is up with block 290308?
 650 2014-03-13 03:12:27 <antephialtic> miner only included 1 tx
 651 2014-03-13 03:12:36 <antephialtic> which was the coinbase TX
 652 2014-03-13 03:12:36 <Luke-Jr> so?
 653 2014-03-13 03:12:50 <Luke-Jr> it happens
 654 2014-03-13 03:12:59 <flammit> up the tx fess you pay =)
 655 2014-03-13 03:13:21 <antephialtic> any particular reason why a miner would be incentivized to mine an empty block?
 656 2014-03-13 03:13:27 <kanzure> flammit: nah, at some point they need to include some transactions or else they would tank their value (and other incentives)
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 659 2014-03-13 03:13:43 <Luke-Jr> antephialtic: 25 BTC subsidy
 660 2014-03-13 03:13:58 <kanzure> are they intentionally mining an empty block, or is it random?
 661 2014-03-13 03:14:11 <Luke-Jr> could be either
 662 2014-03-13 03:14:23 <flammit> you're right kanzure
 663 2014-03-13 03:14:57 <antephialtic> did they just randomly found a valid block while their mempool was empty? doesn't make sense to me
 664 2014-03-13 03:15:30 <Luke-Jr> antephialtic: don't assume miners are mining against bitcoind
 665 2014-03-13 03:15:33 <Luke-Jr> (usually they're not)
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 667 2014-03-13 03:15:50 <Luke-Jr> or rather, usually there's at least one layer in between
 668 2014-03-13 03:16:25 <antephialtic> yeah, I need to read up more on how pooled mining works, since I don't mine I never took the time to research it
 669 2014-03-13 03:16:40 <kanzure> i wonder if the default miner implementations should be modified to try to avoid empty blocks
 670 2014-03-13 03:16:42 <CodeShark> there should be one layer in between :)
 671 2014-03-13 03:17:05 <BCB> CodeShark: Why?
 672 2014-03-13 03:17:06 <Luke-Jr> kanzure: empty blocks aren't necessarily worse than non-empty blocks
 673 2014-03-13 03:17:23 <kanzure> Luke-Jr: a string of hundreds or thousands of empty blocks seems potentially bad?
 674 2014-03-13 03:17:30 <jcorgan> antephialtic: about 30% of the all the blocks in the block chain are coinbase only
 675 2014-03-13 03:17:31 kawagrover has joined
 676 2014-03-13 03:17:32 <kanzure> i guess from a technical implementation standpoint, it's not bad, it'll work
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 678 2014-03-13 03:18:05 <jcorgan> an "empty" block serves just as much toward securing the integrity of the blockchain as a block full of transactions
 679 2014-03-13 03:18:07 <CodeShark> BCB: to allow pooled mining and to decouple the block construction logic from nonce finding
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 681 2014-03-13 03:18:28 <BCB> Ahh
 682 2014-03-13 03:18:35 <sipa> nonce finding is done by the hasher
 683 2014-03-13 03:18:38 <flammit> kanzure: i think the point is that you would assume there's an economic reason for such an event to happen.
 684 2014-03-13 03:18:41 <antephialtic> jcorgan: I guess I can imagine that being reasonably common in the early days where people were just mining for shits and giggles, but nowadays there is enough TX being broadcast that I don't really understand the advantage of an empty block
 685 2014-03-13 03:18:57 <sipa> they're already decoupled, even without a layer in between (i'm not disagreeing with you though)
 686 2014-03-13 03:19:03 <jcorgan> a coinbase only block has the least chance of being orphaned
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 689 2014-03-13 03:19:30 <Luke-Jr> kanzure: if you bias against empty blcoks, miners with no transactions worth mining will just fill them with dummy garbage
 690 2014-03-13 03:19:43 <kanzure> i'm not familiar with the dummy garbage?
 691 2014-03-13 03:19:49 <Luke-Jr> …
 692 2014-03-13 03:19:53 <sipa> send transactions to themselves
 693 2014-03-13 03:19:57 <sipa> and include those
 694 2014-03-13 03:19:59 <kanzure> oh i see, right
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 697 2014-03-13 03:20:06 <kanzure> that doesn't sound like garbage to me
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 699 2014-03-13 03:20:15 <kanzure> that looks like normal transactions
 700 2014-03-13 03:20:23 <sipa> yes, that's the point :)
 701 2014-03-13 03:20:26 <sipa> but it's useless
 702 2014-03-13 03:20:46 <CodeShark> a block with useless self-sent transactions is arguably worse for the ecosystem than an empty block :)
 703 2014-03-13 03:20:59 <kanzure> understood
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 708 2014-03-13 03:24:20 <rasmuzen> sipa: so if I wanted to create and maintain such an index, where would I even start?
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 799 2014-03-13 04:31:27 <lagarde> where is the commit that fixes the SecureRandom bug in bitcoinj?  The advisory was published aug 11 2013 but the only commit in august is on the 16th and none for a month before that?
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 849 2014-03-13 05:17:44 <Luke-Jr> lagarde: I'm pretty sure the SecureRandom bug was in Android, not BitcoinJ
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 918 2014-03-13 06:40:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Anyone know why the qt-win gbuild is failing with "no space left on device" when untarring the source for the 64-bit build?
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 943 2014-03-13 07:09:04 <adam3us> hmm it seems that bitstamp sent out an unsolicited password reset, that was not a phish attack, but actually somehow a change of my password that i did not request, maybe someone trying and succeeding to trigger a password reset
 944 2014-03-13 07:09:38 <adam3us> subject "Login information recovery" from bitstamp.  i use google auth also.
 945 2014-03-13 07:10:13 <adam3us> (but not associated to the same email account just in case).  is there some bitstamp hacking going on?
 946 2014-03-13 07:11:29 <adam3us> anyone seen any emails like that?
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 949 2014-03-13 07:12:28 <adam3us> "Dear Adam Back,
 950 2014-03-13 07:12:28 <adam3us> Please write down the following login information
 951 2014-03-13 07:12:28 <adam3us> Client ID: 123456
 952 2014-03-13 07:12:28 <adam3us> password: <elided>
 953 2014-03-13 07:12:28 <adam3us> If you have any questions regarding Bitstamp exchange service please read our FAQ or use our support form (https://www.bitstamp.net/support/). Our support staff will be more than happy to assist you.
 954 2014-03-13 07:12:29 <adam3us> Best regards,
 955 2014-03-13 07:12:29 <adam3us> Bitstamp team
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 961 2014-03-13 07:17:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|9:08:48 <adam3us> subject "Login information recovery" from bitstamp.  i use google auth also.
 962 2014-03-13 07:17:35 yubrew has joined
 963 2014-03-13 07:17:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|adam3us: as in, the 6 digit OTPs?
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 965 2014-03-13 07:17:57 <adam3us> yes
 966 2014-03-13 07:18:12 <adam3us> my point is this to me looks like someone successfully reset my password
 967 2014-03-13 07:18:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So what do you mean by 9:09:23 <adam3us> (but not associated to the same email account just in case).  ?
 968 2014-03-13 07:18:29 <adam3us> ie if i did not have google auth they might've been able to login to my acct
 969 2014-03-13 07:18:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I mean
 970 2014-03-13 07:18:45 <adam3us> what i mean is i use gmail for the email addr
 971 2014-03-13 07:18:59 <adam3us> but google auth is also associated with an email addr (necessarily a gmail one)
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 973 2014-03-13 07:19:06 <adam3us> and so i made a separate email addr just for google auth
 974 2014-03-13 07:19:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Google Authenticator is never associated to an email
 975 2014-03-13 07:19:23 <adam3us> as you dont want to be able to reset one them both at once on the same email
 976 2014-03-13 07:19:25 <adam3us> no?
 977 2014-03-13 07:19:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Nope
 978 2014-03-13 07:19:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's completely offline
 979 2014-03-13 07:19:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Its
 980 2014-03-13 07:19:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's just a TOTP generator
 981 2014-03-13 07:20:12 <adam3us> well i know its offline, a sw version of rsa securid, but i thought there was a recovery procedure
 982 2014-03-13 07:20:30 ziggamon has joined
 983 2014-03-13 07:20:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You give it one or more shared secrets and it generates the 6 digit passwords every 30 seconds
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 985 2014-03-13 07:20:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Those secrets never leave the device
 986 2014-03-13 07:21:15 <adam3us> well.  i am not so concerned right now about the putative reset procedure for google auth
 987 2014-03-13 07:21:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And there are, in fact, other apps that work just as well
 988 2014-03-13 07:21:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There is no reset procedure for those codes
 989 2014-03-13 07:21:34 <adam3us> rather that someone apparently succeeded to reset my bitstamp password
 990 2014-03-13 07:21:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|They never leave the device
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 992 2014-03-13 07:22:14 <adam3us> and to hear if other people experienced that also
 993 2014-03-13 07:22:16 <kadoban> adam3us: i assume you've contacted their support and asked what's up?
 994 2014-03-13 07:22:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If the shared secret is lost, whoever issued it needs to have a process for disabling/resetting it
 995 2014-03-13 07:22:24 <adam3us> nope
 996 2014-03-13 07:22:37 <adam3us> i guess i should. my first step was to change the password
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1001 2014-03-13 07:25:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, just had a thought
1002 2014-03-13 07:25:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does anyone know if the size of the VMs created by gitian (make-base-vm, I guess) was increased at some poin?
1003 2014-03-13 07:25:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|point?*
1004 2014-03-13 07:26:00 Beef has joined
1005 2014-03-13 07:26:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;lucky gitian builder
1006 2014-03-13 07:26:48 <gribble> https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder
1007 2014-03-13 07:27:18 <ZjP> Most services have some sort of recovery procedure, but its often not even automated. Encrypting a copy of the secret and putting it somewhere is probably your best bet.
1008 2014-03-13 07:27:27 <adam3us> my google auth still works; just the password was reset without my request, and emailed to me in an email from bitstamp.  (i wanted to focus on that first, i thought there was reset procedure for auth))
1009 2014-03-13 07:28:01 <ZjP> Losing a two factor phone with a dozen accounts is not fun.
1010 2014-03-13 07:29:46 <TD> i was thinking about that yesterday
1011 2014-03-13 07:29:56 <TD> the google auth app has no way to export seeds though, as far as i can tell. not even to write them down
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1013 2014-03-13 07:30:38 <kadoban> most services have a way for you to write down special codes that always work, but i think that's different, and maybe not always available
1014 2014-03-13 07:32:00 <TD> yeah
1015 2014-03-13 07:32:06 <TD> it's a per-service custom thing
1016 2014-03-13 07:33:50 <adam3us> TD: you are instructed to backup a seed or something during setup of these google auth's as i recall.  if you ignore that you maybe jammed short of appeal to support on the site and whatever procedure they use for it
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1019 2014-03-13 07:35:32 <TD> that varies per site. i set it up for gandi yesterday and they don't have any kind of proper recovery procedure, it seems. so i had to realise this, deactivate, go back through and write down the seed by hand
1020 2014-03-13 07:35:38 dhill has joined
1021 2014-03-13 07:37:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|adam3us: Google doesn't tell you to write down the auth seed
1022 2014-03-13 07:38:12 <adam3us> michagogo|cloud: right.  i am talking about the relying site. in bitstamp case it does if i recall
1023 2014-03-13 07:38:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It has other ways of getting codes (SMS or voice call), and it also gives you 10 one-time backup codes to write down or print
1024 2014-03-13 07:38:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah
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1026 2014-03-13 07:38:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Aha, found the gitian thing
1027 2014-03-13 07:38:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder/commit/95e09ae608a34f73a292c9df9e2d0e1c238236f9#diff-31b35519a040c5a818a8556999118948
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1029 2014-03-13 07:39:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Looks like I need to remake that VM now :-/
1030 2014-03-13 07:39:21 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|grnbles
1031 2014-03-13 07:39:30 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|grumbles*
1032 2014-03-13 07:40:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;later tell BlueMatt it would have been great if you'd included something that checks for old, small VMs in https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder/commit/95e09ae608a34f73a292c9df9e2d0e1c238236f9
1033 2014-03-13 07:40:29 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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1035 2014-03-13 07:41:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Actually
1036 2014-03-13 07:42:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does anyone know if there's a way to just increase the size?
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1041 2014-03-13 07:46:41 <wumpus> no clue, depends on the image format; if it's just loopback-mountable you could probably make the file larger and use something like resizee2fs to resize the file system
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1051 2014-03-13 07:53:45 <Luke-Jr> could probably just run it in KVM directly and resize2fs too
1052 2014-03-13 07:54:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: lxc
1053 2014-03-13 07:54:43 <Luke-Jr> lxc doesn't have a disk size.. O.o
1054 2014-03-13 07:54:55 <Luke-Jr> or shouldn't
1055 2014-03-13 07:55:08 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: right! you can run resize2fs online if you want to make the file system larger, I forgot
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1057 2014-03-13 07:55:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: well, tar is failing and saying there's no space left
1058 2014-03-13 07:55:30 <wumpus> gitian lxc does use an image
1059 2014-03-13 07:56:10 <wumpus> in any case I think rebuilding the image will be quicker than figuring this out
1060 2014-03-13 07:56:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: it's very slow, iirc
1061 2014-03-13 07:56:49 <Luke-Jr> I wasn't aware LXC even *supported* images XD
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1063 2014-03-13 07:57:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google resize lxc image
1064 2014-03-13 07:57:05 <gribble> Ploop/Getting started - OpenVZ Linux Containers Wiki: <http://openvz.org/Ploop/Getting_started>; LXC tutorial | János Pásztor: <http://www.janoszen.com/2013/05/14/lxc-tutorial/>; Seven problems of Linux Containers - SlideShare: <http://www.slideshare.net/kolyshkin/seven-problems-of-linux-containers>
1065 2014-03-13 07:57:17 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: i think it's just a loopback mount
1066 2014-03-13 07:57:57 <Luke-Jr> hm, I guess that works:p
1067 2014-03-13 07:58:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|.msg alis list *lxc*
1068 2014-03-13 07:58:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Er
1069 2014-03-13 07:58:06 <wumpus> IIRC the lxc 'image' is a partition that is extracted from the qemu full-disk image
1070 2014-03-13 07:58:49 <wumpus> then again you can quickly find out by look at the vm builder code in gitian
1071 2014-03-13 07:59:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: there *is* an "extracting for lxc" line printed towards the end of the process, iirc
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1074 2014-03-13 08:00:35 <embicoin> Hi, I googled about this error but I don't find any info, can you give me some clue? The error is: JSONRPCError(-100, "Unable to sign block, wallet locked?");
1075 2014-03-13 08:00:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|embicoin: uh, sign block?
1076 2014-03-13 08:00:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|This is #bitcoin-dev
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1080 2014-03-13 08:01:32 <embicoin> Well, michagogo|cloud isn't this error in the bitcoin code?
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1082 2014-03-13 08:01:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|embicoin: is it?
1083 2014-03-13 08:01:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'm pretty sure the bitcoin code never signs blocks
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1085 2014-03-13 08:02:33 <embicoin> bitcoinrpc.cpp l 1994
1086 2014-03-13 08:02:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Sounds  like an altcoin to me
1087 2014-03-13 08:02:40 <embicoin> ok, then excuse me
1088 2014-03-13 08:02:49 <wumpus> did he just come in from an alternate reality where all the blocks have to be signed by satoshi?
1089 2014-03-13 08:02:50 Neozonz has joined
1090 2014-03-13 08:03:19 <wumpus> I grepped 0.8.6 and master and did not find that message
1091 2014-03-13 08:03:32 <embicoin> Ok wumpus, that is what I expected
1092 2014-03-13 08:03:40 <embicoin> I needed a confirmation that this is custom code
1093 2014-03-13 08:03:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|embicoin: try walletpassphrase, though
1094 2014-03-13 08:03:44 <wumpus> you could have easily done that yourself
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1096 2014-03-13 08:04:21 <Luke-Jr> embicoin: even if it was code that came from bitcoin, this is not support for altcoins
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1099 2014-03-13 08:05:25 <embicoin> I was not asking for support for altcoins, but ok you are right I don't want to argue here man, just your comment is useless and silly
1100 2014-03-13 08:05:46 <wumpus> if you have problems with an altcoin you should contact the developers of your altcoin, *if* there are any
1101 2014-03-13 08:05:51 <Luke-Jr> in the real world.. wtf is all this 50 BTC transactions going on?
1102 2014-03-13 08:06:34 <wumpus> someone is cutting up large coins
1103 2014-03-13 08:07:02 <Luke-Jr> usually cutting up has multiple outputs
1104 2014-03-13 08:07:50 <wumpus> possibly someone moving wallets due to the mtgox database leak. and yes, it appears some people haven't discovered sendmany
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1106 2014-03-13 08:10:12 <Luke-Jr> sigh
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1129 2014-03-13 08:28:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm
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1133 2014-03-13 08:29:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is there a way to resize the partition in the qcow2 image without booting a machine in KVM?
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1138 2014-03-13 08:37:05 <wumpus> you can fdisk on a file
1139 2014-03-13 08:38:25 <wumpus> but no idea if qcow2 is a raw disk image
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1143 2014-03-13 08:39:55 <vegard> you can mount a qcow2 image as a block device using qemu-nbd
1144 2014-03-13 08:40:10 <vegard> then resize it on the host
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1160 2014-03-13 09:00:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So I think this should do it: `qemu-img resize file.qcow2 10G; sudo qemu-nbd --connect=/dev/nbd0 file.qcow2; sudo fdisk /dev/nbd0 <resize the device with the menus>; sudo resize2fs /dev/nbd0`
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1165 2014-03-13 09:03:19 <vegard> the resize2fs needs to be /dev/nbd0p0 or so, no?
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1167 2014-03-13 09:04:33 <vegard> also, need to modprobe nbd with high enough number of partitions, I forget the name of the parameter
1168 2014-03-13 09:05:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|modprobe?
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1170 2014-03-13 09:06:48 <vegard> yeah, do a 'sudo modprobe nbd max_part=64' first, otherwise I think you might not get enough partitions if the kernel loads it automatically
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1172 2014-03-13 09:07:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|vegard: Why do I need more than 1 partition?
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1176 2014-03-13 09:08:04 <vegard> I think the default might be 0, I had a problem with the kernel not reading the partition table before
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1178 2014-03-13 09:08:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|0?
1179 2014-03-13 09:08:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|uh, okay
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1243 2014-03-13 10:26:12 <nsh> jgarzik, do you know what the original rationale was for the extra 20 confirmation margin for coinbase maturity in the satoshi client?
1244 2014-03-13 10:26:23 <nsh> (or anyone else)
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1250 2014-03-13 10:29:35 <Aurigae> i already posted this yesterday without response, meanhilw some altcoin pools where hit hard. https://github.com/MPOS/php-mpos/issues/1938 , no idea if this is relevant for bitcoin but worth a look imo
1251 2014-03-13 10:30:41 <nsh> eep
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1256 2014-03-13 10:38:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|nsh: Ask Satoshi
1257 2014-03-13 10:38:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I can only assume it was to provide an extra buffer against reorgs
1258 2014-03-13 10:38:39 <nsh> we won't talk to me any more because broke one of his trains :/
1259 2014-03-13 10:38:47 <buZz> :P
1260 2014-03-13 10:38:47 * nsh nods
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1266 2014-03-13 10:44:11 <Adlai> work!~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai|nsh: you mean waiting 120 confirmations for coinbase transactions?
1267 2014-03-13 10:44:24 * nsh nods
1268 2014-03-13 10:44:50 <Adlai> work!~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai|nsh: think what happens in a chain fork... with regular transactions, they can just get processed into a block on either fork
1269 2014-03-13 10:44:59 <Adlai> work!~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai|but with coinbase transactions, they can't exist on the fork that doesn't include their block
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1271 2014-03-13 10:45:27 <Adlai> work!~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai|so you don't want to spend those outputs until you're quite certain that they're in the main fork
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1273 2014-03-13 10:45:55 <Adlai> work!~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai|I'm not sure whether there's an objective justification for 120 confirmations as opposed to 100 or 150, but that's the number that was chosen
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1278 2014-03-13 10:48:07 * nsh smiles in a manner that good-naturedly indicates that no new information was gained :)
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1280 2014-03-13 10:48:23 <nsh> *well-naturedly, i suppose
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1289 2014-03-13 10:52:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Adlai|work: I think nsh was asking why the Satoshi client waited 120 blocks when protocol only requires 100
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1291 2014-03-13 10:52:28 * nsh nods
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1296 2014-03-13 11:00:13 <wumpus> I've seen it explained once, I think satoshi was afraid of a race condition in the case of a reorganization so left a margin of 20 blocks between when the network allows spending and when the client tries to spend
1297 2014-03-13 11:03:43 <Breign> hoe staat het met bl3p?
1298 2014-03-13 11:03:51 <Breign> wrong chan sry :)
1299 2014-03-13 11:03:59 <wumpus> but this extra safety doesn't need to be forced on users, people that want to wait longer can wait longer
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1303 2014-03-13 11:09:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Hmm, how come your base-manifest is half the size of Gavin's?
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1342 2014-03-13 11:37:58 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: gavin has a sledgehammer approach to installing packages
1343 2014-03-13 11:38:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|In the gitian base vm? o_O
1344 2014-03-13 11:38:28 <wumpus> ie, install all dependencies for all builds instead of just those listed in the descriptor
1345 2014-03-13 11:38:49 <wumpus> as that allows for reusing the same (virtualbox iirc) VM after  cleaning the homedir
1346 2014-03-13 11:38:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I guess he manually makes his own base VMs
1347 2014-03-13 11:39:03 <wumpus> he has documented his process on his blog somewhere
1348 2014-03-13 11:39:15 <wumpus> in any case it ends up with the same executables 
1349 2014-03-13 11:39:18 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|just uses the output of make-base-vm
1350 2014-03-13 11:39:24 <wumpus> me too
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1391 2014-03-13 12:05:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Um, it looks like vmbuilder can build VBox VMs
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1403 2014-03-13 12:16:58 <Anduck> is the fee system coded yet?
1404 2014-03-13 12:17:25 <Anduck> the new consensus based fee system
1405 2014-03-13 12:17:49 <Anduck> also thanks to devs for great job
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1432 2014-03-13 12:47:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Grr
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1437 2014-03-13 12:48:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I wish security software wasn't so afraid of files it's never seen before
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1443 2014-03-13 12:50:27 <super3>  
1444 2014-03-13 12:51:09 <super3> michagogo|cloud, this is why i'm not an early adopter
1445 2014-03-13 12:51:34 <super3> michagogo|cloud, it freaks out about most bitcoin software
1446 2014-03-13 12:52:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|super3: I need to go through 3 warnings from both the security software and Chrome, plus hunt for the restore-from-quarantine option, to be allowed to install the 0.9.0rc3 that I just built myself
1447 2014-03-13 12:52:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Um
1448 2014-03-13 12:52:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|C:\Users\Micha\Bitcoin Fork\gitian.sigs\0.9.0rc3\laanwj>gpg --verify bitcoin-build.assert.sig
1449 2014-03-13 12:52:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gpg: Signature made 03/13/14 09:27:55 Jerusalem Standard Time using RSA key ID 2346C9A6
1450 2014-03-13 12:52:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gpg: BAD signature from "Wladimir J. van der Laan <laanwj@gmail.com>"
1451 2014-03-13 12:52:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: ping
1452 2014-03-13 12:53:03 <super3> ha ha. its saving you from yourself.
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1460 2014-03-13 12:55:28 <gavinandresen> michagogo|cloud: I get gpg: Signature made Thu Mar 13 03:27:55 2014 EDT using RSA key ID 2346C9A6
1461 2014-03-13 12:55:38 <gavinandresen> gpg: Good signature from "Wladimir J. van der Laan <laanwj@gmail.com>"
1462 2014-03-13 12:56:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm
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1464 2014-03-13 12:57:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's weird
1465 2014-03-13 12:57:43 <lagarde> Can someone point me to good explanation of tx input sequence no.  and tx locktime?  (other than the bitcoind source).  I think locktime is as simple as transaction won't be accepted until lt block.  But I'm interested in the conditions under which either param will render a tx accepted or rejected.
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1468 2014-03-13 12:59:55 <gavinandresen> If the locktime is in the past OR the sequence numbers are all MAX_INTEGER, then the transaction is "final" and can be included in a block.
1469 2014-03-13 13:00:15 <gavinandresen> Otherwise the transaction is not final, and may not be included in a block.
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1471 2014-03-13 13:01:06 <gavinandresen> lagarde: I'm not sure what you mean by "accepted/rejected"  ….
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1473 2014-03-13 13:01:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wth?
1474 2014-03-13 13:01:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|c:\Users\Micha\Bitcoin Fork\gitian.sigs\0.9.0rc3-win\michagogo>gpg --verify bitcoin-build.assert.sig
1475 2014-03-13 13:01:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gpg: Signature made 03/13/14 14:18:02 Jerusalem Standard Time using RSA key ID 628ECF0C
1476 2014-03-13 13:01:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gpg: BAD signature from "Michagogo (User account michagogo on Github as of October 12, 2013) <michagogo@server.fake>"
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1480 2014-03-13 13:02:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Huh.
1481 2014-03-13 13:02:19 <gavinandresen> michagogo|cloud: try running gpg with --verbose
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1487 2014-03-13 13:03:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gavinandresen: Not helpful, I don't think:
1488 2014-03-13 13:03:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/YCAQN0oT
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1490 2014-03-13 13:04:00 <lagarde> gavinandresen: accepted/rejected whether it can be included in a block.  I'm not sure if it's relevant to input sequence no.  I've seen explanations of tx build techniques where seq is incremented.  i.e. mike hearn's micropayments protocol.  Trying to understand if a miner sees a tx with a higher sequence number do protocol rules mean it will accept that version of tx over one it's previously seen with a lower seq number
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1492 2014-03-13 13:04:30 <cornfeedhobo> gavinandresen: i have heard you speak a few times, and you mention needing donations and needing to bribe testers.... does the foundation not have a holding of coins allocated to this purpose? I would think that would have been planned early, no?
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1494 2014-03-13 13:04:41 <gavinandresen> lagarde: as of a few releases ago, non-final transactions are not relayed across the network or stored in nodes' memory pools.
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1496 2014-03-13 13:05:26 <gavinandresen> cornfeedhobo: I have a holding of coins allocated to that purpose. Why, do you know a good QA person ?
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1498 2014-03-13 13:06:42 <gavinandresen> lagarde: … so things like micropayment protocols that rely on incrementing sequence numbers are one-to-one, off-the-normal-p2p-network messaging
1499 2014-03-13 13:06:57 <lagarde> gavinandresen: so it's only intended to be used in communication between parties to progressively evolve a tx to it's final state?  Can either party at any point just modify all seq nums to MAX_INT to make the tx valid?
1500 2014-03-13 13:07:28 <cornfeedhobo> gavinandresen: yes, but he is often in his own world and not motivated by money. We are actually evaluating the many alts right now and were chatting about the usefulness of premining given your talks about needing to bribe. The conversation just made me curious about the current state of affairs at the foundation
1501 2014-03-13 13:07:42 <gavinandresen> lagarde: no, not if you're signing the transactions with SIGHASH_ALL.
1502 2014-03-13 13:08:29 <gavinandresen> lagarde: some of the other SIGHASH_ modes WILL let a participant say "I'm happy now, don't care what happens to sequence numbers from now on..."
1503 2014-03-13 13:08:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, I wonder what might be wrong
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1505 2014-03-13 13:09:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm
1506 2014-03-13 13:09:39 <lagarde> gavinandresen: thanks.  yet another answer I don't understand immediately but suspect you've included the info I need to understand with further research ;)  I hadn't worked out the point of the various SIGHASH modes.  Now maybe I will.  Thanks
1507 2014-03-13 13:09:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Testing in my Ubuntu VM the sigs verify fine
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1511 2014-03-13 13:10:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Looks like GPG is somehow broken on my machine?
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1513 2014-03-13 13:11:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Except it's not "fail always", I don't think
1514 2014-03-13 13:12:25 <gavinandresen> michagogo|cloud: gpg being broken on your machine is off-topic for bitcoin-dev …..
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1521 2014-03-13 13:16:54 <TD> sipa: ping
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1523 2014-03-13 13:17:25 <aschildbach> I'm trying to set up gitian.
1524 2014-03-13 13:17:50 <TD> lagarde: that's how it was originally meant to work (it's actually satoshi's micropayment protocol)
1525 2014-03-13 13:17:57 <TD> lagarde: or actually he called it high frequency trading
1526 2014-03-13 13:18:21 <aschildbach> The "zlib input" download is very unstable.
1527 2014-03-13 13:18:21 <TD> lagarde: unfortunately because of Core's poor anti-DoS system it was one of the useful features that got the chop. i'm hoping we can bring it back at some point
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1529 2014-03-13 13:19:08 <TD> sipa: i'm not entirely sure why the HDW spec has this notion of internal and external. is there really any benefit to this?
1530 2014-03-13 13:22:40 <lagarde> TD: I presume dealing with a tx without a MAX_INT seq no implies no commitment then?
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1535 2014-03-13 13:26:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: looks like zlib.net is down
1536 2014-03-13 13:26:41 HANTI is now known as hanti
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1538 2014-03-13 13:27:08 <aschildbach> michagogo|cloud: or overloaded. Got some bytes then it disconnected. Are there any known mirrors?
1539 2014-03-13 13:28:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: IIRC libpng had a copy on its servers
1540 2014-03-13 13:28:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|give me a sec
1541 2014-03-13 13:28:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: http://sourceforge.net/projects/libpng/files/zlib/1.2.8/zlib-1.2.8.tar.gz/download
1542 2014-03-13 13:29:25 <TD> lagarde: it'd be !final and thus !standard
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1545 2014-03-13 13:31:49 <lagarde> TD: But still mineable?
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1547 2014-03-13 13:32:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No
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1549 2014-03-13 13:32:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Non-final transactions are not mineable
1550 2014-03-13 13:32:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|As mining implies it's final...
1551 2014-03-13 13:32:26 <aschildbach> michagogo|cloud: thanks, how can I be sure its the same? I don't see any hashes in the docs.
1552 2014-03-13 13:32:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: It will fail if the hashes aren't the same
1553 2014-03-13 13:32:43 <TD> lagarde: sequence numbers have been useless since the feature was chopped out of the code
1554 2014-03-13 13:32:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(the descriptor checks the hash)
1555 2014-03-13 13:33:04 <TD> lagarde: once we make Bitcoin manage its resources better, we can bring it back, I hope. most of the apps that need it though are not that big a deal right now
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1558 2014-03-13 13:35:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7084665/
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1586 2014-03-13 13:52:18 <aschildbach> Again gitian: When building bitcoin, shall I be on the v0.9.0rc3 tag? I assume so, but am missing a note in the docs about it. It just tells me to "git pull".
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1592 2014-03-13 13:53:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: yes
1593 2014-03-13 13:54:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|release-process.md has a git checkout v${VERSION}, doesn't it?
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1596 2014-03-13 13:54:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Aha, I fixed the signature problem
1597 2014-03-13 13:54:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;later tell gavinandresen Turns out, the signature problem was git converting lf to crlf automatically, which obviously broke the signatures
1598 2014-03-13 13:54:59 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1599 2014-03-13 13:55:11 <aschildbach> I'm not following release-process.md but a file gitian-descriptors/README.md. Is that the wrong file?
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1601 2014-03-13 13:55:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: Huh?
1602 2014-03-13 13:55:25 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|looks
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1607 2014-03-13 13:55:36 <aschildbach> its in contrib
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1610 2014-03-13 13:56:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: Ah, that's not up to date
1611 2014-03-13 13:56:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It has you make lucid VMs, and it still calls it "win32"
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1613 2014-03-13 13:56:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|among other things
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1615 2014-03-13 13:57:03 <aschildbach> great
1616 2014-03-13 13:57:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: First get set up following github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder
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1618 2014-03-13 13:57:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Adding "--suite precise" to the make-base-vm commands
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1620 2014-03-13 13:57:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: Then follow release-process
1621 2014-03-13 13:57:57 <aschildbach> Hmm I'm already on 14.04, is that a problem?
1622 2014-03-13 13:58:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Um, I don't think so
1623 2014-03-13 13:58:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|--suite precise is for the VMs, not the hoist
1624 2014-03-13 13:58:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|host*
1625 2014-03-13 13:58:17 <aschildbach> ok
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1635 2014-03-13 14:00:39 <aschildbach> michagogo|cloud: damn, this instructions on the git have too many alternatives
1636 2014-03-13 14:01:02 <aschildbach> michagogo|cloud: And its not clear what's really an alternative and what not. (A common problem with tech documentation)
1637 2014-03-13 14:01:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Example?
1638 2014-03-13 14:01:28 <aschildbach> Is VirtualBox an alternative to KVM?
1639 2014-03-13 14:01:38 <aschildbach> Is LXC and alternative to VirtualBox?
1640 2014-03-13 14:01:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes, but not quite as easy to set up
1641 2014-03-13 14:01:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And LXC is a linux container
1642 2014-03-13 14:01:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|somewhere betweek chroot and vm
1643 2014-03-13 14:02:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|anyway, g2g
1644 2014-03-13 14:02:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bbiab
1645 2014-03-13 14:02:51 <aschildbach> Somehow I need a meta-doc what's important for me and what not. Of course I want the easiest way to set up.
1646 2014-03-13 14:03:40 <aschildbach> Maybe just the README.md I was following should be updated. It has a better approach.
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1661 2014-03-13 14:10:44 <venzen> aschildbach: please post the path to that README.md so I can try it with an eye to update...
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1693 2014-03-13 14:39:44 <aschildbach> venzen: contrib/gitian-descriptors/README.md
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1703 2014-03-13 14:48:47 <venzen> thanks
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1707 2014-03-13 14:51:45 <BCB> what is this: https://blockchain.info/address/1FB1Wry957GoPuasrwP9AZXj63P1won3dS
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1712 2014-03-13 14:53:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: what is your system?
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1714 2014-03-13 14:53:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(The host for the gbuild)
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1717 2014-03-13 14:53:44 <BCB> can anyone comment on the transaction posted above ^%
1718 2014-03-13 14:53:57 <wumpus> the release-process.md has taken over the role of the README in gitian-descriptors
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1722 2014-03-13 14:54:09 <wumpus> there is a lot of duplicated information in both
1723 2014-03-13 14:54:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: well, r-p.md doesn't tell you how to set up gitian
1724 2014-03-13 14:54:22 <wumpus> and the release process is always most up-to-date
1725 2014-03-13 14:54:28 <wumpus> it should
1726 2014-03-13 14:54:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Meh, I'm not sure I agree
1727 2014-03-13 14:54:47 <wumpus> at least the current split makes no sense at all
1728 2014-03-13 14:54:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Gitian is gitian
1729 2014-03-13 14:55:00 <wumpus> bla is bla :p
1730 2014-03-13 14:55:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Release-process tells you how to use gitian to do our build
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1732 2014-03-13 14:55:39 <wumpus> ok, agreed
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1734 2014-03-13 14:56:03 <wumpus> so at least getting the inputs and building them should be removed from the README in gitian-descriptors
1735 2014-03-13 14:56:13 <wumpus> as that's part of building bitcoin, not setting up gitian
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1737 2014-03-13 14:56:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I don't think we need a "how to set up gitian" unless we pull it in
1738 2014-03-13 14:56:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: IMHO "setting up gitian" belongs with gitian
1739 2014-03-13 14:57:10 <sipa> a reference to it in bitcoin may be useful thouggh
1740 2014-03-13 14:57:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Things may change, etc
1741 2014-03-13 14:57:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Unless we pull gitian into our repo, I think we should leave that to gitian's readme
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1743 2014-03-13 14:59:14 <wumpus> indeed sipa, adding a reference to it in the release process may make sense
1744 2014-03-13 14:59:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|We should detail what we need
1745 2014-03-13 14:59:32 <wumpus> and at least remove the old/duplicated information
1746 2014-03-13 15:00:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Namely, a gitian setup with precise i386+amd64 VMs
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1748 2014-03-13 15:01:01 <wumpus> that is actually described in that README
1749 2014-03-13 15:01:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Details on how to get to that state belong, IMHO, with gitian
1750 2014-03-13 15:01:41 <wumpus> but it's useful to have steps/actual commands to run
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1773 2014-03-13 15:07:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: btw, you can pull my sigs
1774 2014-03-13 15:07:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Not at my computer atm so can't or)
1775 2014-03-13 15:07:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|pr*
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1782 2014-03-13 15:10:17 <wumpus> where from?
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1784 2014-03-13 15:10:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|My fork
1785 2014-03-13 15:10:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|As always
1786 2014-03-13 15:10:46 <aschildbach> michagogo|cloud: Sorry, was away. My system is Ubuntu 14.04
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1788 2014-03-13 15:11:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: Running directly on the machine, with virtualization acceleration in the CPU?
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1791 2014-03-13 15:15:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: If the answer is yes, great -- use lxc
1792 2014-03-13 15:15:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|erm, I mean kvm
1793 2014-03-13 15:15:42 <aschildbach> michagogo|cloud: Yes, its a laptop. /dev/kvm is present, so I guess "virtualization acceleration" is enabled?
1794 2014-03-13 15:15:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: What's your CPU?
1795 2014-03-13 15:15:59 <sipa> TD: the distinction between internal and external chains is so you can selectively reveal only incoming payments vs all payments
1796 2014-03-13 15:16:03 <aschildbach> In Intel something...
1797 2014-03-13 15:16:34 <sipa> TD: and the internal ones have less strict rescanning requirements (you know they will be used consecutively)
1798 2014-03-13 15:16:37 <TD> is this a useful distinction? if you reveal incoming payments, you also reveal spends of those payments
1799 2014-03-13 15:16:39 <aschildbach> i7-3667U 2 GHz
1800 2014-03-13 15:17:00 debiantoruser has joined
1801 2014-03-13 15:17:02 <TD> and unfortunately, you have to pregenerate lots of keys anyway because of how getblocks works
1802 2014-03-13 15:17:05 <TD> so i'm not sure it's a big difference
1803 2014-03-13 15:17:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: Yeah, you have hardware virt
1804 2014-03-13 15:17:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Great, you want KVM
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1806 2014-03-13 15:17:23 <sipa> TD: without the internal keys, you can't distinguish change from outgoing payments
1807 2014-03-13 15:17:59 <TD> ah i see. so after several payments it becomes hard to know who is who
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1810 2014-03-13 15:18:39 <sipa> wumpus noted that this wasn't explained inbip32
1811 2014-03-13 15:18:45 <sipa> so i'll add it
1812 2014-03-13 15:19:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(all Intel core i[357] CPUs have hardware virtualization)
1813 2014-03-13 15:19:41 <TD> thanks
1814 2014-03-13 15:19:48 <aschildbach> michagogo|cloud: And NOT lxc and NOT virtualbox, I assume?
1815 2014-03-13 15:19:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: correct
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1817 2014-03-13 15:20:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And again, make sure to pass --suite precise to make-base-vm
1818 2014-03-13 15:20:20 <aschildbach> The gitian-builder github page should make clear that you need to pick one of those.
1819 2014-03-13 15:21:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Basically, KVM is the easiest and smoothest one, from what I've seen
1820 2014-03-13 15:21:47 <wumpus> yes, kvm is most straightforward
1821 2014-03-13 15:22:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Since all the tools for making the VMs work well with it
1822 2014-03-13 15:22:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(python-vm-builder, in this case)
1823 2014-03-13 15:22:25 <aschildbach> Ok I'm running make-base-vm again. I assume the amd64 version is not needed any more?
1824 2014-03-13 15:22:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: you need both
1825 2014-03-13 15:22:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|precise i386 and precise amd64
1826 2014-03-13 15:23:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(so, run make-base-vm twice)
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1828 2014-03-13 15:24:03 <aschildbach> That's missing in the github readme.
1829 2014-03-13 15:24:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: The default is amd64
1830 2014-03-13 15:24:32 <aschildbach> Ah ok I see
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1833 2014-03-13 15:25:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|LXC, or Linux Container, is basically somewhere between a VM and a chroot
1834 2014-03-13 15:26:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It runs isolated, but with the host's kernel
1835 2014-03-13 15:26:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(IIRC)
1836 2014-03-13 15:26:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|LXC's advantage is that it doesn't require hardware virtualization support, because it's not a VM
1837 2014-03-13 15:27:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Meaning that it can, itself, be run inside a VM
1838 2014-03-13 15:27:22 <venzen> LXC seems less resource hungry - never used it - but seems a kind of debootstrap
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1840 2014-03-13 15:28:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|venzen: Erm, isn't debootstrap a tool for setting up debian or debian-based installations?
1841 2014-03-13 15:28:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|LXC in a VM is how I do my gbuilds -- on a VPS and in a VM running on my computer
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1843 2014-03-13 15:28:57 <wumpus> on my computer, the LXC build is *more* resource hungry for some reason (maybe because qemu limits memory usage inside the VM)
1844 2014-03-13 15:28:59 <venzen> debootstrap allows many distros last time i checked, but Ubuntu for sure
1845 2014-03-13 15:29:00 * uiop has been meaning to start using lxc (maybe via docker, probably with libvirt)
1846 2014-03-13 15:29:48 <venzen> wumpus: more resource hungry? qemu? good grief... :P
1847 2014-03-13 15:30:42 <uiop> it might be that the qemu vms were hard-resource-constrained whereas the lxc vms had full access to all the juice
1848 2014-03-13 15:30:50 <wumpus> venzen: also it's very easy to ssh into the kvm to debug issues and/or retry steps, with lvm I found it's more difficult to manually 'enter' the VM
1849 2014-03-13 15:31:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah, KVM is definitely the best way to go if you can
1850 2014-03-13 15:31:18 <venzen> wumpus: just when i thought kernel-native virtualization in linux had gone to the next level...oh well.. will give it a try
1851 2014-03-13 15:31:54 <venzen> true, KVM seems to just work in most cases and with less hickups than Xen
1852 2014-03-13 15:32:03 <wumpus> venzen: well LXC works as well, there's no question about that, I verified the gitian builds with both, but for development I still prefer kvm
1853 2014-03-13 15:32:35 <wumpus> it's also possible to use virtualbox
1854 2014-03-13 15:32:45 <uiop> the lxc-*(1) one-liners that start a big build/something make me want to grok the fu
1855 2014-03-13 15:32:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But that does require more in the way of manual setup
1856 2014-03-13 15:33:11 <venzen> wumpus: i hear you, i have some VPSs and those are KVM and just a breeze to work with and manage
1857 2014-03-13 15:33:24 <venzen> uiop: hehe, grok the fu!
1858 2014-03-13 15:34:00 <aschildbach> Now that the VM's are generated, I switch to the build-process.txt  ##perform gitian builds
1859 2014-03-13 15:34:13 <aschildbach> Do I need the SIGNER key?
1860 2014-03-13 15:34:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: yes
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1863 2014-03-13 15:34:25 <aschildbach> How do I get it?
1864 2014-03-13 15:34:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's what you'll be GPG-signing the results with
1865 2014-03-13 15:34:42 <aschildbach> I assume its the ID of the key?
1866 2014-03-13 15:34:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: make it something that identifies the key
1867 2014-03-13 15:34:51 <wumpus> you're the SIGNER yourself
1868 2014-03-13 15:35:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Anything that you can use to tell `gpg` what key to use
1869 2014-03-13 15:35:21 <wumpus> usually the first part of your mail address
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1871 2014-03-13 15:35:48 <wumpus> (it will be used in the name of the directory in gitian.sigs, so using the hex keyid is not very nice tho possible)
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1873 2014-03-13 15:37:37 <aschildbach> It may sound weird, but I do my GPG signing on another machine. Is it possible to skip signing for now, or do I need to sign with a throwaway key?
1874 2014-03-13 15:38:08 <wumpus> you could do the signing on another machine yourself
1875 2014-03-13 15:38:29 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|goes to look at the gsign script
1876 2014-03-13 15:38:31 <aschildbach> Yes, but what do I put into the environment variable? My keyring on that machine is empty.
1877 2014-03-13 15:38:47 <wumpus> copy the .assert file to your signing pc, then sign, copy back the .assert.sig, check in both 
1878 2014-03-13 15:38:55 <sipa> if you don't want to sign, don't call gsign
1879 2014-03-13 15:39:01 <aschildbach> ok
1880 2014-03-13 15:39:06 <wumpus> nothing
1881 2014-03-13 15:39:14 * uiop just put in 5 minutes towards lxc. results:
1882 2014-03-13 15:39:17 <uiop> sudo lxc-execute -n foo_doesnt_exist_currently sleep 5 & sudo lxc-top
1883 2014-03-13 15:39:20 <uiop> :)
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1885 2014-03-13 15:40:39 <uiop> back to work
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1888 2014-03-13 15:42:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: the .assert file is created by ssign
1889 2014-03-13 15:42:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gsign*
1890 2014-03-13 15:43:22 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: so it requires patching for it to just spit out an assert file and not sign?
1891 2014-03-13 15:43:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: well, a 1-line patch
1892 2014-03-13 15:43:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just strike the last line of the script
1893 2014-03-13 15:44:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|but yes
1894 2014-03-13 15:44:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Actually, no, I don't think it does
1895 2014-03-13 15:44:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The gpg line comes after everything's done
1896 2014-03-13 15:45:20 <aschildbach> Is VERSION 0.9.0 or 0.9.0rc3 or v0.9.0rc3?
1897 2014-03-13 15:45:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|0.9.0rc3
1898 2014-03-13 15:45:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So if you run gsign and don't have a private key that matches the argument to --signer, the gpg signing will just fail
1899 2014-03-13 15:45:58 <aschildbach> Ok thanks
1900 2014-03-13 15:46:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: So just run through the process as stated there
1901 2014-03-13 15:46:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The gpg signing will fail, which is fine
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1903 2014-03-13 15:46:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just take the file from gitian.sigs/$SIGNER to your signing machine and sign it with `gpg -b`
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1905 2014-03-13 15:48:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Did you pull my sigs yet? I'm back to my computer. If it's easier, I can go and PR it now, if you'd rather click a button on the page than run `git pull https://github.com/Michagogo/gitian.sigs master`
1906 2014-03-13 15:51:21 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: ye sI did
1907 2014-03-13 15:51:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|k
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1913 2014-03-13 15:57:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, interesting
1914 2014-03-13 15:57:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Doing it like that doesn't create a merge commit
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1924 2014-03-13 16:04:24 <wumpus> git pull does a fast forward if possible, by default
1925 2014-03-13 16:05:03 <sipa> git merge too, afaik
1926 2014-03-13 16:05:25 <wumpus> yes merge too
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1928 2014-03-13 16:07:06 <aschildbach> btw. is it possible that git pull completely refused to pull if fast forwards are not possible? I always end up in a merge state that I don't want to resolve.
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1930 2014-03-13 16:08:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: same here
1931 2014-03-13 16:09:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, wait
1932 2014-03-13 16:09:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Looks like it *is* an option
1933 2014-03-13 16:09:31 <sipa> aschildbach: if there's a conflict, you'll have to resolve it
1934 2014-03-13 16:09:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|--ff-only
1935 2014-03-13 16:09:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Refuse to merge and exit with a non-zero status unless the current HEAD is already up-to-date or the merge can be resolved as a fast-forward.
1936 2014-03-13 16:09:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, wait -- that's for merge
1937 2014-03-13 16:10:18 <aschildbach> sipa: No, I can also always choose to not pull.
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1939 2014-03-13 16:10:46 <sipa> i may be missing some context, sorry
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1942 2014-03-13 16:11:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Interesting, so now it appears as if I committed
1943 2014-03-13 16:11:49 <aschildbach> Gitian seems to take some time to compile everything. Until when do you guys need the signature to be useful for the release?
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1945 2014-03-13 16:12:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: It's fine
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1947 2014-03-13 16:12:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, building the deps now will mean you can build the release tag right away
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1981 2014-03-13 16:42:34 <EasyAt> "I believe it was caused or related to a defect or 'bug' in the bitcoin software algorithm which was exploirted by one or more persons who had 'hacked' the bitcoin network
1982 2014-03-13 16:42:43 <EasyAt> whoops, wrong hcan
1983 2014-03-13 16:43:40 <Diablo-D3> EasyAt: I just lol'd
1984 2014-03-13 16:44:23 <EasyAt> hehe
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1987 2014-03-13 16:45:25 <Diablo-D3> EasyAt: thats a great fox news impression
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1996 2014-03-13 16:47:49 <wumpus> aschildbach: no hurry, signatures are always useful for verification (of course, the utility goes down when the next rc/release is out)
1997 2014-03-13 16:48:51 <Harbingerx81> Hey guys, I am looking at building an ARM based (teensy 3.1) cold storage hardware wallet...Any good links to existing libraries that will generate valid private keys and/or calculate public keys from them?
1998 2014-03-13 16:49:01 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
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2001 2014-03-13 16:49:47 <sipa> create a valid private key: dd bs=32 count=1 if=/dev/urandom
2002 2014-03-13 16:49:50 <sipa> :)
2003 2014-03-13 16:49:56 <buZz> lol
2004 2014-03-13 16:50:01 <buZz> Harbingerx81: nice!
2005 2014-03-13 16:50:09 <buZz> Harbingerx81: like the trezor?
2006 2014-03-13 16:50:33 BGL has joined
2007 2014-03-13 16:50:46 <Harbingerx81> similar, yeah...the first version will not be able to sign transactions, just hold and encrypt keys
2008 2014-03-13 16:50:49 <Apocalyptic> sipa, actually /dev/random would be better for a privkey
2009 2014-03-13 16:51:06 <sipa> Apocalyptic: what did i say?
2010 2014-03-13 16:51:16 <sipa> ah, random vs urandom
2011 2014-03-13 16:51:17 <Apocalyptic> you said urandom
2012 2014-03-13 16:51:19 <Harbingerx81> version two I have some wireless options in mind for signing
2013 2014-03-13 16:51:23 debiantoruser has joined
2014 2014-03-13 16:51:24 <sipa> meh; use haveged
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2030 2014-03-13 17:06:24 <devrandom> Harbingerx81: feedback on my hw wallet paper is very welcome https://github.com/devrandom/btc-papers/blob/master/hardware-wallet-security.md
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2035 2014-03-13 17:08:49 <Harbingerx81> cool, i'll have to look at it more in detail, but the RNG issue is pretty easy to solve in my opinion
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2039 2014-03-13 17:10:05 <Harbingerx81> I have mine doing about 1000+ reads of an unconnected analog input pin on the microcontroller, averaging the data (which will be random between 0-127 depending on the resolution)
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2042 2014-03-13 17:12:24 <justanotheruser> What does this mean? It's debug.log and I have thousands of these. Surely there aren't this many orphan blocks http://i.imgur.com/Czm1cac.png
2043 2014-03-13 17:12:41 <sipa> it's just your node downloading blocks out of order
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2048 2014-03-13 17:12:58 <sipa> an orphan block is a block for which the parent isn't known
2049 2014-03-13 17:13:05 <justanotheruser> I see
2050 2014-03-13 17:13:14 vegard has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2052 2014-03-13 17:14:05 <justanotheruser> I wonder how much of the reindexing time is spent writing to debug.log
2053 2014-03-13 17:14:10 debiantoruser has joined
2054 2014-03-13 17:14:13 <sipa> hardly anything
2055 2014-03-13 17:14:28 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2056 2014-03-13 17:14:46 <sipa> if anything, it's writing orders of magnitude more data to block files
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2060 2014-03-13 17:16:19 <justanotheruser> sipa: it looks like it is hardly writing anything. Pretty much all of my tx say "accepted"
2061 2014-03-13 17:16:40 tombtc has joined
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2063 2014-03-13 17:17:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does anyone have a list of which messages each debug setting enables?
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2067 2014-03-13 17:20:14 <sipa> justanotheruser: ??
2068 2014-03-13 17:20:19 <sipa> justanotheruser: what are you talking about
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2073 2014-03-13 17:21:42 <buZz> Harbingerx81: keep in mind that ppl can influence 'floating pin RNG' very easily
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2078 2014-03-13 17:27:07 <Harbingerx81> true, i have some checks in place already to mitigate that and it is actually just used at the moment to generate IVs for AES rather than address generation
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2083 2014-03-13 17:28:33 <Harbingerx81> but, influencing the RNG to generate new addresses does not really give you any way to apply those influenced results to reverse engineering keys that have already been generated
2084 2014-03-13 17:29:17 <devrandom> Harbingerx81: might point is not that RNG is hard to implement, but that the RNG can be subverted without detection by anybody with physical access to the hw during manufacturing / shipping
2085 2014-03-13 17:29:53 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2086 2014-03-13 17:30:23 <devrandom> my paper describes a way to secure hw wallets without having to trust the hw at all
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2089 2014-03-13 17:32:46 <Harbingerx81> ah there is that, yes...By the same logic though, anyone with access could reflash the MC completely and bypass ANY safeguards you try to add
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2093 2014-03-13 17:34:00 <wbaw> devrandom, randomness doesn't exist, correct it to entropy
2094 2014-03-13 17:34:15 <devrandom> Harbingerx81: no, my approach protects against complete compromise too
2095 2014-03-13 17:34:34 <devrandom> wbaw: will do, thanks
2096 2014-03-13 17:35:03 <wbaw> where do you get the additional entropy from?
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2098 2014-03-13 17:35:44 <devrandom> wbaw: the host computer that the hw wallet is connected to
2099 2014-03-13 17:36:09 justanotheruser is now known as just[dead]
2100 2014-03-13 17:36:22 <wbaw> i'd actually rather trust a hw csprng
2101 2014-03-13 17:36:32 <ThomasZ> devrandom: add sensors, like a gyroscope, and hook it into the entropy generator ;)
2102 2014-03-13 17:37:02 <wbaw> devrandom, what if the computer has no entropy?
2103 2014-03-13 17:37:08 <wbaw> say it just returns 1
2104 2014-03-13 17:37:25 <devrandom> wbaw: that's fine, the 1 will be mixed into the hw device entropy
2105 2014-03-13 17:37:44 <devrandom> the entropy will be the sum of the computer + device
2106 2014-03-13 17:38:08 <Apocalyptic> <devrandom> wbaw: the host computer that the hw wallet is connected to // relying on anything provided by the host computer kinda defeats the whole purpose of the hw wallet
2107 2014-03-13 17:38:15 <wbaw> so there will be a hw rng in the device?
2108 2014-03-13 17:38:34 <devrandom> Apocalyptic: no, the computer is not trusted in my scheme
2109 2014-03-13 17:38:45 <Apocalyptic> you trust his entropy pool
2110 2014-03-13 17:38:53 Belxjander has joined
2111 2014-03-13 17:39:01 <devrandom> it mixes the entropy pools
2112 2014-03-13 17:39:07 <wbaw> and it'll just use a host pc as an additional source to mix with it?
2113 2014-03-13 17:39:18 <devrandom> right
2114 2014-03-13 17:39:43 kermit has joined
2115 2014-03-13 17:39:54 <devrandom> each device is partially untrusted, but the protocol makes the system as a whole trustworthy
2116 2014-03-13 17:40:07 <Apocalyptic> so the security model is kinda equivalent to relying on the hw entropy pool only
2117 2014-03-13 17:40:09 just[dead] is now known as justanotheruser
2118 2014-03-13 17:40:47 <justanotheruser> 2014-03-13 17:38:45 trying connection 128.210.11.80:8333 lastseen=80.2hrs
2119 2014-03-13 17:40:48 <devrandom> the threat model assumes that the computer and hw device will not be subverted by the same attacker
2120 2014-03-13 17:40:48 <justanotheruser> 2014-03-13 17:38:50 connection timeout
2121 2014-03-13 17:40:54 <justanotheruser> Over and over again
2122 2014-03-13 17:41:04 kawagrover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2123 2014-03-13 17:41:11 <justanotheruser> Please help (reindexing)
2124 2014-03-13 17:41:28 markus__ has joined
2125 2014-03-13 17:41:38 <devrandom> Apocalyptic: so if either entropy pool is good, the result will be unpredictable to the attacker
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2127 2014-03-13 17:42:44 <ThomasZ> devrandom: if the host generates 10 times the amount of entropy that the hw does, where its not really random, does that still work? What about 100 times?
2128 2014-03-13 17:43:25 <devrandom> I would measure the entropy in bits
2129 2014-03-13 17:43:31 <wbaw> how?
2130 2014-03-13 17:44:02 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2131 2014-03-13 17:44:03 <wbaw> how can you measure how much entropy is in each bit?
2132 2014-03-13 17:44:13 <devrandom> sorry, I don't mean that the computer will actually measure it
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2134 2014-03-13 17:44:25 <devrandom> I'm just saying that the entropy pool has a certain number of good bits of entropy
2135 2014-03-13 17:44:33 <devrandom> if it's >128, you are likely safe
2136 2014-03-13 17:44:59 <devrandom> the number of bits in the pool is usually capped by the size of the registers used in it
2137 2014-03-13 17:45:10 <wbaw> it's hard to estimate how many of those bits are predictable though
2138 2014-03-13 17:45:17 <devrandom> right...
2139 2014-03-13 17:45:22 <wbaw> or could be
2140 2014-03-13 17:45:46 <devrandom> but if the hw has 32 bits (i.e. too small) and the computer has 128, then mixing them potentially gives you 160 bits
2141 2014-03-13 17:45:57 <devrandom> in any case, you'll definitely get more bits than each individually
2142 2014-03-13 17:46:06 <devrandom> so as long as either side has >= 128 bits, you are safe
2143 2014-03-13 17:46:36 <devrandom> you don't have to actually measure the entropy, you just have to mix the pools
2144 2014-03-13 17:47:27 <wbaw> have you looked at fortuna?
2145 2014-03-13 17:47:42 <devrandom> looking now
2146 2014-03-13 17:48:06 <wbaw> it's a way to mix different entropy pools
2147 2014-03-13 17:48:38 <wbaw> the linux kernel code for dev/random & urandom seems good too
2148 2014-03-13 17:49:16 <devrandom> fortuna is interesting
2149 2014-03-13 17:49:59 <devrandom> in this case, I am assuming we only need one random number (the BIP32 seed)... all further keys are derived from the seed.
2150 2014-03-13 17:50:10 Eggman33 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2151 2014-03-13 17:50:46 <devrandom> need to think if the defenses in fortuna are applicable
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2153 2014-03-13 17:51:36 <wbaw> linux uses a different alternative
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2156 2014-03-13 17:52:18 <devrandom> I think fortuna is protecting against "flushing" - i.e. injecting a bunch of non-random data to put the RNG accumulator into a known state
2157 2014-03-13 17:52:19 <wbaw> yarrow is earlier, but requires estimating the 'real entropy' available
2158 2014-03-13 17:52:43 <devrandom> but we're just generating one random seed, so flushing seems impossible
2159 2014-03-13 17:52:50 <devrandom> I'll think about it more
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2162 2014-03-13 17:55:15 <wbaw> it's hard to get unpredictable entropy in a cheap small embedded device
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2168 2014-03-13 17:56:15 <wbaw> easiest & one of the most reliable is to use a hw rng
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2182 2014-03-13 18:00:56 <BlueMatt> michagogo|cloud: or you could add it :p
2183 2014-03-13 18:01:01 <BlueMatt> or just remake the base vm...
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2190 2014-03-13 18:07:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BlueMatt: I remade the base vm
2191 2014-03-13 18:08:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But I had no idea that the size had changed
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2195 2014-03-13 18:14:16 <BlueMatt> ahh
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2201 2014-03-13 18:21:31 <justanotheruser> I am in the middle of reindexing. Is it possible to add a seed node without restarting? I keep getting 2014-03-13 18:20:22 trying connection 128.210.11.80:8333 lastseen=80.9hrs
2202 2014-03-13 18:21:38 <justanotheruser> 2014-03-13 18:20:27 connection timeout
2203 2014-03-13 18:23:47 roidster has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
2204 2014-03-13 18:25:17 <wbaw> yes you can add a node without restarting
2205 2014-03-13 18:25:28 <wbaw> open the debug window
2206 2014-03-13 18:25:44 <wbaw> addnode xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx add
2207 2014-03-13 18:26:05 <wbaw> replace the x with the ip address or hostname
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2211 2014-03-13 18:27:41 <justanotheruser> wbaw: where I said bitcoind -debug?
2212 2014-03-13 18:27:56 <justanotheruser> I mean bitcoind -reindex
2213 2014-03-13 18:28:18 <wbaw> if you're using bitcoind then type bitcoind before addnode
2214 2014-03-13 18:28:25 <wbaw> and do it on your command line
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2221 2014-03-13 18:30:42 <justanotheruser> wbaw: I did that, but it still keep trying to other node. I ran "./bitcoind addnode btcnode1.evolyn.net add"
2222 2014-03-13 18:30:47 <justanotheruser> Oh, sorry, nevermind
2223 2014-03-13 18:31:10 <justanotheruser> Thanks :)
2224 2014-03-13 18:31:10 <wbaw> it'll take a few seconds to connect
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2230 2014-03-13 18:32:21 <justanotheruser> I didn't realize that I could use bitcoind commands without -daemon
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2247 2014-03-13 18:47:35 <wbaw> you can use it for rpc commands if bitcoin is running
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2252 2014-03-13 18:52:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: -daemon just means "run in the background rather than being in the foreground of my terminal"
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2256 2014-03-13 18:55:46 <tiago> gavinandresen, can I send you a private message?
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2267 2014-03-13 19:00:30 <sipa> justanotheruser: still have a question?
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2281 2014-03-13 19:18:23 <justanotheruser> sipa: it was answered. Thanks
2282 2014-03-13 19:18:56 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: oh, so I could do -daemon -reindex?
2283 2014-03-13 19:19:37 <sipa> yes
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2293 2014-03-13 19:25:55 <shesek> I'm adding end-to-end encryption to Bitrated, trying to decide whether I should use standard AES with a separate key, or go with ECDH using the public keys I already have. What do you think?
2294 2014-03-13 19:27:17 <petertodd> shesek: what's the UI involved?
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2299 2014-03-13 19:27:54 <shesek> petertodd, no UI changes, just encrypting the partially-signed transaction requests
2300 2014-03-13 19:28:13 <petertodd> shesek: ah ok, so not user-facing. then I'd do ECDH
2301 2014-03-13 19:28:13 <shesek> currently they're passed through the server in plain
2302 2014-03-13 19:28:15 TheSeven has joined
2303 2014-03-13 19:28:48 <petertodd> shesek: users who don't trust the javascript and want to do signing totally offline though may want something different
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2305 2014-03-13 19:28:55 <shesek> though, I will also be using end-to-end encryption in the future for sending messages between buyers/sellers/arbitrators and all that
2306 2014-03-13 19:29:11 <shesek> so it might be better to go with something more standard, like GPG
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2310 2014-03-13 19:29:40 <petertodd> shesek: long term you *really* want OpenPGP, and fortunately there's now a javascript library for handling it apparently
2311 2014-03-13 19:29:41 <shesek> well, for that specific case its not a problem - they'll sign locally, input the signed transaction in the interface, and then it'll be encrypted
2312 2014-03-13 19:30:26 <shesek> the client side code still has to be trusted to encrypt it correctly... but I think its less of a problem
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2317 2014-03-13 19:31:03 <petertodd> shesek: well, I guess I'm saying you need to decrypt it somehow, and there isn't a off-the-shelf thing yet for the local signing to do the ECDH
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2319 2014-03-13 19:31:13 <petertodd> (though just giving them the javacsript website to run locally works!)
2320 2014-03-13 19:31:22 <shesek> but it is more problematic for encrypting more sensitive information, like messages between users, where people might want to do that locally
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2322 2014-03-13 19:31:54 <petertodd> yes, and overall for stuff like that you do want to move to a model where you're dealing with OpenPGP keys so all the standard authentication stuff can be handled right
2323 2014-03-13 19:33:25 <shesek> yeah, probably so... I think I'll go with PGP, though its somewhat annoying to have to deal with multiple key pairs
2324 2014-03-13 19:33:41 <petertodd> what do you mean by that?
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2327 2014-03-13 19:35:37 <Joric> is it possible to spend inputs from the transaction with nlocktime>0 after it gets into the block?
2328 2014-03-13 19:35:48 <petertodd> Joric: absolutely
2329 2014-03-13 19:36:01 <Joric> holy crap
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2331 2014-03-13 19:36:15 <petertodd> ?
2332 2014-03-13 19:36:30 <sipa> Joric: after an nlocktime transaction gets into a block, it has no special properties
2333 2014-03-13 19:36:40 <sipa> nlocktime just prevents it from getting into a block until some time
2334 2014-03-13 19:37:06 <shesek> petertodd, each party would need to have a key pair for PGP, in addition to the Bitcoin key pair
2335 2014-03-13 19:37:08 <Joric> i expected client considers those inputs as spent
2336 2014-03-13 19:37:18 <Joric> ah got it
2337 2014-03-13 19:37:36 <sipa> wait, wait
2338 2014-03-13 19:37:40 <sipa> can you eloborate a bit?
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2340 2014-03-13 19:37:47 <petertodd> shesek: oh sure, so, long term with payment protocols I'd expect that to be fairly standard actually - at worst your wallet would handle that for you
2341 2014-03-13 19:38:04 <petertodd> shesek: at best you'd take advantage of PGP as part of your identity - just depends on how far you as the user want to go with it
2342 2014-03-13 19:38:42 <shesek> I wonder if I should change the contract signing to use PGP too
2343 2014-03-13 19:38:44 TheCleanGame has left ("AVG .5% Daily for your BTC! http://scrypt.cc?ref=baagt")
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2345 2014-03-13 19:39:00 <sipa> Joric: i'm unclear what you're referring to with 'inputs' ?
2346 2014-03-13 19:39:06 <petertodd> shesek: I would - I personally sign contracts with PGP, but like I say, this can be a long-term shift
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2348 2014-03-13 19:39:43 <shesek> using bitcoin's keys has an advantage - its the same public key that's part of the multi-signature, so the contract was necessarily signed by the multi-signature party
2349 2014-03-13 19:39:45 <petertodd> shesek: I think for you a good starting point would be to look at the openpgp-js library and just start learning
2350 2014-03-13 19:39:53 <Joric> sipa, i thought an nlocktime transaction gets into the blockchain and sits there, that was stupid
2351 2014-03-13 19:40:03 <petertodd> shesek: yeah, without a payment protocol that's certainely an advantage, with a payment protocol that's a disadvantage
2352 2014-03-13 19:40:05 <shesek> I could link the keys together, like signing the PGP key with Bitcoin's key
2353 2014-03-13 19:40:10 <shesek> but that's getting somewhat cumbersome
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2356 2014-03-13 19:40:41 <petertodd> shesek: yup, see, long-term you'd want to automate it so tha tyour OpenPGP key included a Bitcoin pubkey as just another user-id, and then use it with derivation for privacy
2357 2014-03-13 19:40:44 <shesek> I should look into the PP a bit more, I didn't really follow the development there
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2359 2014-03-13 19:41:22 <petertodd> shesek: the specifics of the payment protocol BIP aren't great, but the basic idea is needed for sure
2360 2014-03-13 19:41:52 <petertodd> shesek: the main thing is the basic oncept of "I'm paying/escrowing/etc with a human being, not a address"
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2364 2014-03-13 19:45:54 <shesek> I think it might be better to go with ECDH for now after all, and switch to PGP once encryption is used more widely
2365 2014-03-13 19:45:56 <shesek> for now, all I want to do is store partially signed transactions on the server (currently, its sent immediately to all connected parties and discarded immediately, so both parties must be connected at the same time), and I don't want to store plain transactions on my servers
2366 2014-03-13 19:46:19 <shesek> not sure if its worth starting to mess with PGP for that
2367 2014-03-13 19:46:37 <petertodd> yeah, as long as the identity of the parties involved is their bitcoin address, from the user's point of view, stick with that. long term recognize that identity is... tricky!
2368 2014-03-13 19:46:49 nsh has joined
2369 2014-03-13 19:47:39 <petertodd> anyway, when you're ready to go further, give me a shout - there's interest in doing identity well from a lot of parties, including those I work for :)
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2371 2014-03-13 19:48:54 <shesek> yeah, I'm also going to be doing some related work as part of Bitrated
2372 2014-03-13 19:49:07 <petertodd> oh yeah?
2373 2014-03-13 19:49:28 <shesek> once I have a proper accounts and reputation system for the arbitrators
2374 2014-03-13 19:49:48 debiantoruser has joined
2375 2014-03-13 19:49:56 <wbaw> i think i found some tricks for identity
2376 2014-03-13 19:49:59 <petertodd> ah right - reminds me, I came up with a nice reputaiton scheme at the fincrypto conf
2377 2014-03-13 19:50:16 <shesek> I'd love to hear about that
2378 2014-03-13 19:50:17 <wbaw> hopefully i can get the namecoin guys to think about adopting them
2379 2014-03-13 19:50:33 <shesek> reputation is actually quite a big part of what I have planned there
2380 2014-03-13 19:50:44 <wbaw> it involves having a lot of people & a blockchain
2381 2014-03-13 19:50:56 <wbaw> i'm just focusing on identity first
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2384 2014-03-13 19:51:34 <petertodd> shesek: so, it's really a incremental improvement on someone elses presentation, but long story short if you have any scheme where you have customer reviews, you want to be sure that no bad review has been censored. You can do that by publishing those reviews on a website, such that if a the website fails to publish a review and a customer is unhappy about that, they can force publication through a proof-of-publication system, IE  the bitcoin ...
2385 2014-03-13 19:51:40 <petertodd> ... blockchain.
2386 2014-03-13 19:51:44 <wbaw> even just email verification is tricky
2387 2014-03-13 19:52:46 <petertodd> shesek: so, e.g., in the example of a online marketplace, you'd essentially give the participants a signed token in advance essentially saying "you're authorized to write a review", and if you try to hide it when they write it, they can force it to be public anyway and show that the review related to a legit transaction.
2388 2014-03-13 19:52:57 <wbaw> namecoin added id, but no verification, you can pretend to be whoever you want
2389 2014-03-13 19:53:12 <shesek> petertodd, you don't really need something like Bitcoin for that though
2390 2014-03-13 19:53:32 <petertodd> shesek: next step is then reputation analysis via things like 'how much blockchain fees did tx's related to all those claimed transactions add up too?" and so on to make faked identities with glowing reviews hard (in the fully anon case)
2391 2014-03-13 19:53:50 <shesek> you can just give them a signed message, saying "Bob send a review about Alice, for transaction <ID>, on <DATE>, with the following content: ..."
2392 2014-03-13 19:53:51 <petertodd> shesek: ah, but you see you do, because you have to have provable proof-of-publication, at least in the decentralized case
2393 2014-03-13 19:53:55 HeySteve has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2394 2014-03-13 19:54:03 <shesek> s/send/sent
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2399 2014-03-13 19:54:21 <petertodd> shesek: problem is how do I as a *third-party* who is deciding if I should do business with that party know that there aren't bad reviews out there that I can't see?
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2403 2014-03-13 19:54:52 <shesek> well, right, you can't - it only allows to reviewer to later prove that he had a review in the past and that it was deleted
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2406 2014-03-13 19:55:29 <petertodd> exactly, without proof-of-publication the whole thing becomes vulnerable to censorship
2407 2014-03-13 19:56:36 <wbaw> not all votes are equal either
2408 2014-03-13 19:56:42 <shesek> it doesn't really make it invulnerable to censorship though, its invulnerable to secret censorship
2409 2014-03-13 19:56:56 <shesek> I mean, I could know that some reviews were deleted, but I won't know their content
2410 2014-03-13 19:57:04 <wbaw> somebody could set up a bunch of fakes & add a lot of fake reviews
2411 2014-03-13 19:57:12 <shesek> (if I understood what you're proposing correctly)
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2414 2014-03-13 19:57:59 <petertodd> shesek: yes and no, you'd certainely be able to know if there was censorship, and with a bit more work, be able to get the contents of the censored reviews for sure
2415 2014-03-13 19:58:04 <shesek> it is a good idea though, to commit on a daily basis to some root hash with all the users ratings
2416 2014-03-13 19:58:12 <wbaw> i'm working on some maths for a more reliable trust metric
2417 2014-03-13 19:58:27 <petertodd> some implementations might only prove censorship mind - that's a possible way to do it
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2420 2014-03-13 19:58:36 <shesek> well, that's if they're stored somewhere decentralized
2421 2014-03-13 19:58:51 ahf has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2422 2014-03-13 19:58:53 <petertodd> as I said, bitcoin blockchain is your last resort publishing option
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2424 2014-03-13 19:59:10 <shesek> are you really suggesting to store actual review contents on the blockchain? :P
2425 2014-03-13 19:59:13 <shesek> I thought that's a big no no
2426 2014-03-13 19:59:37 <petertodd> so generally there's no censorship, and everything is done centralized, but when the merchant/agent/whatever tries to censor reviews, then you go to the blockchain
2427 2014-03-13 19:59:47 <wbaw> i'm thinking of starting a new blockchain & the reviews would just be numbers
2428 2014-03-13 19:59:54 <petertodd> it's also a big no no to use the blockchain for transactions you know, bloats the purity of satoshi's vision
2429 2014-03-13 20:00:13 <wbaw> haha
2430 2014-03-13 20:00:42 <petertodd> just look at the debate over satoshidice... just what is or isn't ok?
2431 2014-03-13 20:01:02 <wbaw> what did satoshi dice do?
2432 2014-03-13 20:01:04 <petertodd> I mean, I could claim I'm strongly against tipping services because they bloat the blockchain
2433 2014-03-13 20:01:18 <petertodd> wbaw: they used the blockchian for transactions when in theory they could have done it off-chain
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2435 2014-03-13 20:01:49 <shesek> petertodd, can we do some scheme where some third parties synchronize the rating information, and get paid for proving they really hold it (say, by the market operator, who wants to prove he's honest)?
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2437 2014-03-13 20:02:00 <pigeons> more than just for transactions, they used a very small transaction to signal lsoing the bet
2438 2014-03-13 20:02:03 <petertodd> shesek: problem is, how does the proof work?
2439 2014-03-13 20:02:09 <wbaw> petertodd, so bitcoin's model relies on everybody being nice?
2440 2014-03-13 20:02:12 <shesek> so that its off the Bitcoin blockchain, but gives others incentive to holding copies of that and making that available for others
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2443 2014-03-13 20:02:36 <petertodd> shesek: see, invoking centralized trust is easy
2444 2014-03-13 20:02:54 <petertodd> pigeons: they did fix that issue
2445 2014-03-13 20:02:57 <wbaw> centralised trust isn't real trust
2446 2014-03-13 20:03:14 <wbaw> you need to put your faith in some organisation then
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2448 2014-03-13 20:03:30 <shesek> petertodd, hmm... you could challenge them with requests for hashes with some specific salt perhaps?
2449 2014-03-13 20:04:00 <shesek> I'm not quite sure how you can prove you will pay them for that proof, though
2450 2014-03-13 20:04:12 <petertodd> shesek: yes, but there is an issue of the service claiming the review never got to them
2451 2014-03-13 20:04:16 brson has joined
2452 2014-03-13 20:04:18 <shesek> I think bitcloud are working on some ways for proof-of-possession on some data
2453 2014-03-13 20:04:20 <petertodd> anyway, bbl
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2455 2014-03-13 20:05:17 <shesek> sure. was nice chatting with you :)
2456 2014-03-13 20:05:19 <shesek> see you later
2457 2014-03-13 20:05:24 <Luke-Jr> wbaw: bitcoin's *scalability* relies on miners filtering spam. which most miners neglect today.
2458 2014-03-13 20:06:16 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2459 2014-03-13 20:06:19 _ImI_ has joined
2460 2014-03-13 20:06:43 <wbaw> so it relies on them being nice, there's no rules to enforce not spamming the blockchain...
2461 2014-03-13 20:07:02 <wbaw> just the transaction fee
2462 2014-03-13 20:07:05 <Luke-Jr> sure there are, implemented by miners
2463 2014-03-13 20:07:16 <wbaw> but not all miners
2464 2014-03-13 20:07:41 <Luke-Jr> all miners have some form of anti-spam. just it sucks in mainline
2465 2014-03-13 20:07:41 debiantoruser has joined
2466 2014-03-13 20:07:54 <Luke-Jr> (partly because mainline isn't targetting miner use)
2467 2014-03-13 20:07:56 <shesek> petertodd, I guess you could always resort to using zero-knowledge proofs for that - they'd run a program that'll take a root hash of all the rating information they have, and show that it matches a root hash committed to in the blockchain
2468 2014-03-13 20:08:27 <shesek> but its probably the last way I'd go about that
2469 2014-03-13 20:09:11 <dexX7> say i create a bunch of transactions and i use one output from the previous transaction, i can be sure that those tx later appear in a block in order and never out of order, right?
2470 2014-03-13 20:09:22 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2471 2014-03-13 20:09:31 <shesek> I wonder how regulators would deal with a centralized service that deliberately makes himself censorship resistant
2472 2014-03-13 20:09:42 <shesek> could they slap "obstruction of justice" on that or something?
2473 2014-03-13 20:09:59 <wbaw> what kind of service are you doing here?
2474 2014-03-13 20:10:12 <wbaw> you've lost me know
2475 2014-03-13 20:10:15 <wbaw> now
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2496 2014-03-13 20:20:57 <shesek> I'm somewhat worried about implementing ECDH myself... I understand how that works, but I don't have enough background to be confident that I won't screw that up somehow :\
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2499 2014-03-13 20:21:21 <shesek> anyone willing to review that?
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2516 2014-03-13 20:28:11 <LarsLarsen> shesek: What happens if someone gets a negative rating and then rectifies it?  How do people reclaim their respect?  If I get a negative feedback and there is nothing I can do about it why would I not burn the identity and start over?
2517 2014-03-13 20:28:44 <shesek> LarsLarsen, if you're honest, you probably have other positive reviews to counter that
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2520 2014-03-13 20:29:27 <shesek> generally speaking, I don't think the service operator should ever intervene with rating information and manually change reputation history
2521 2014-03-13 20:29:32 <LarsLarsen> shesek: Do they really counter that?   Who cares how many times I was a good player?  If I murdered your grandma once?
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2524 2014-03-13 20:30:13 <shesek> well, how do you propose it should work? how can anyone, other than you and the rater, know if it was justified or not?
2525 2014-03-13 20:30:17 <LarsLarsen> shesek: What if the person who gave the bad review has been compensated?
2526 2014-03-13 20:30:25 <LarsLarsen> shesek: is that reflected?
2527 2014-03-13 20:30:43 <shesek> in Bitrated, you could have the arbitrator add his own impression about ratings related to transactions he was related to
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2529 2014-03-13 20:31:04 <shesek> so you do have some third party that can add his own judgment
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2532 2014-03-13 20:31:44 <shesek> or, more generally speaking, even if its not arbitrator - you could contact someone well known and reputable, convince him you're right, and have him add his own comment next to the bad rating
2533 2014-03-13 20:32:01 <shesek> well, you could pay users to remove their own ratings, I guess... though I'm not sure if that's a good thing
2534 2014-03-13 20:32:28 <LarsLarsen> shesek: Exactly....
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2536 2014-03-13 20:34:37 <LarsLarsen> Its not the arbitrator or the person well known you have to convince,  its the person you wronged.
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2539 2014-03-13 20:34:57 <LarsLarsen> you must right that wrong,  thats how people regain reputation in real life,  because we CANT burn identities
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2541 2014-03-13 20:35:33 <denisx> is 0.9.0rc3 now running on mavericks?
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2544 2014-03-13 20:36:23 <xabbix> If I have an address with a balance of 1BTC over 2 inputs, 0.7BTC + 0.3BTC. Now I create a new transaction and I'm sending out 0.2BTC to another address, where will it take the coins from? the 0.3? the 0.7? is there a logic behind the choice?
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2547 2014-03-13 20:39:45 <LarsLarsen> shesek:  An eye for an eye and the whole world is blind.  If I have good reputation,  I can do business with my competitor with a dummy user and give him bad reviews.  He may be a really nice guy,  but the arbirators can only say "Dude he's nice" even though he has 1000 negative comments.  You are never going to make me a happy customer because I am not a customer.   What is your identity worth now?  You proved that you were hones
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2549 2014-03-13 20:41:22 <LarsLarsen> ITs an extension of what I like to call "walk into a restaurant and extort free lunch by threatening to write a scathing yelp review.
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2560 2014-03-13 20:50:16 <shesek> LarsLarsen, there are ways to limit the effect of dummy accounts and spam submissions
2561 2014-03-13 20:53:11 <gmaxwell> LarsLarsen: maybe, when you get down to human things a lot of things work in practice when they don't work in theory, and don't work in practice even when they do work in theory.
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2565 2014-03-13 20:53:53 <LarsLarsen> shesek: If you require that customers have an identity,  you failed.  Customers dont care about reputation.
2566 2014-03-13 20:53:56 <petertodd> and sumb ideas are just dumb
2567 2014-03-13 20:54:02 <petertodd> *some
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2571 2014-03-13 20:54:51 <petertodd> LarsLarsen: I suspect that in the strictest "online plutonium marketplace" example you'll have to go by trust based on provable expenditures that an ideal attacker would incur creating the identity, IE sum of all tx fees
2572 2014-03-13 20:55:29 <petertodd> LarsLarsen: anything which involves real-world community/identities with centralization can be much weaker, and potentially cheaper
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2575 2014-03-13 20:57:22 <petertodd> LarsLarsen: and yes, that ideal example certainely leads to cases where a competitor can screw you over with fake reviews... but that's life in anon decentralized systems
2576 2014-03-13 20:57:39 <LarsLarsen> petertodd: there are no expenditures for a plutonium seller,  he makes a profit building that reputation
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2578 2014-03-13 20:58:16 <petertodd> LarsLarsen: only if he's actually selling something; point is if it's all faked what's the cost to fake that?
2579 2014-03-13 20:58:26 <LarsLarsen> petertodd: You end up having to give customers a reputation,  and they will burn them to keep warm
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2582 2014-03-13 20:58:43 <petertodd> heh
2583 2014-03-13 20:59:02 <petertodd> that's an attack I think a lot of people forget: what if your competitor pays your customers to give you bad reviews?
2584 2014-03-13 20:59:12 samson_ has joined
2585 2014-03-13 20:59:38 <LarsLarsen> petertodd: If an order of plutonium sells for more than the cost to build up those TX's then lets party
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2587 2014-03-13 21:00:28 <LarsLarsen> petertodd: or you pay them to retract them,  i.e. they extort you
2588 2014-03-13 21:00:48 <petertodd> indeed
2589 2014-03-13 21:00:53 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2590 2014-03-13 21:01:13 <petertodd> you don't want a system where the value of the reputation hit of an order can be higher than the order itself
2591 2014-03-13 21:01:55 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2592 2014-03-13 21:02:48 <spr4wl_org> a little off topic, but an interesting reputation system is detailed in the book Thieves Emporium (free kindle download ) ... :)
2593 2014-03-13 21:02:55 <petertodd> ?
2594 2014-03-13 21:02:57 debiantoruser has joined
2595 2014-03-13 21:02:57 <LarsLarsen> petertodd: But.. you REALLY need plutonium.... only one guy seems to have it.... its worth a shot right?  It appears as if he has it and sold it before.
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2598 2014-03-13 21:04:08 <petertodd> LarsLarsen: what you really want is proof-of-plutonium, as plutonium is a lemon market
2599 2014-03-13 21:05:02 <antephialtic> brb, going to create GeigerCoin, a new PoP based cryptocurrency
2600 2014-03-13 21:05:03 <pigeons> if you REALLY need it you pay the "wanting it tax". due dilligence would include contacting or investigating previous customers, and if the previous customers arent trustworthy, it actually doesnt appear as if he has sold it before upon inspection
2601 2014-03-13 21:05:50 * LarsLarsen paints lead with plutonium colored paint
2602 2014-03-13 21:05:56 <pigeons> #bitcoin-wot has some of nanotubes ideas on this
2603 2014-03-13 21:06:04 * gmaxwell gentily guides everyone to .. say, #bitcoin
2604 2014-03-13 21:06:17 just[dead] is now known as justanotheruser
2605 2014-03-13 21:06:31 * orperelman says #bitcoin
2606 2014-03-13 21:06:56 <LarsLarsen> pigeons: I'm guessing they're big on customer reputation
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2608 2014-03-13 21:08:02 <LarsLarsen> sorry gmaxwell
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2632 2014-03-13 21:34:13 <aschildbach> What am I supposed to do with the bitcoin-build.assert files that result from building?
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2649 2014-03-13 21:55:36 <goatpig> hi
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2654 2014-03-13 22:00:43 <sipa> aschildbach: upload to the gitian.sigs repo
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2659 2014-03-13 22:03:25 <goatpig> is there a way to query the required fee for a transaction before signing it?
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2668 2014-03-13 22:06:43 <sipa> goatpig: size * fee_per_byte :)
2669 2014-03-13 22:06:47 <aschildbach> sipa: Done, I guess. https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs/pull/20
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2671 2014-03-13 22:07:07 <gmaxwell> goatpig: you need to know the size of the signatures (though it would be fine to just assume they were the maximum size) no rpc for that currently.
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2673 2014-03-13 22:07:32 <sipa> every signature is on average 71.494 bytes
2674 2014-03-13 22:07:46 <sipa> 71 + 42/85 to be precise
2675 2014-03-13 22:07:48 <gmaxwell> the max is better to use.
2676 2014-03-13 22:07:54 <sipa> 72 then
2677 2014-03-13 22:08:12 <gmaxwell> plus the size of the pubkey, and redeem script for p2sh.
2678 2014-03-13 22:08:34 * gmaxwell hates how inefficient the DER encoding is.
2679 2014-03-13 22:09:05 <gmaxwell> you'd have to do an awful lot of grinding to recover the overhead from der. :P
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2701 2014-03-13 22:31:42 <nezZario> So, p2sh .. it's the person who creates the script's responsibility to not only have to meet the script's critera, but to actually make sure they keep the script handy, as it's not broadcast over the network until someone tries to redeem?
2702 2014-03-13 22:32:17 <gmaxwell> nezZario: the script is just effectively part of the private key. Similar requirements apply.
2703 2014-03-13 22:32:48 <gmaxwell> (you don't need to keep it private, but there is also no need to keep all of your private key private)
2704 2014-03-13 22:34:30 wallet42 has joined
2705 2014-03-13 22:34:46 <nezZario> er, just to be sure, bip16 is the most recent implementation of p2sh ?
2706 2014-03-13 22:35:38 [\\\] has joined
2707 2014-03-13 22:35:42 <gmaxwell> You might want to ask a more specific question.
2708 2014-03-13 22:35:49 <gmaxwell> BIP16 is a specification, not an implementation.
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2710 2014-03-13 22:36:35 <nezZario> you are correct, specification* i meant
2711 2014-03-13 22:36:53 <nezZario> that is, is there any significant difference between the spec in bip16 and the actual implementation
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2714 2014-03-13 22:43:13 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell:  "fees to be slashed 10-fold"... is that in 0.9.0?
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2716 2014-03-13 22:46:03 <goatpig> gmaxwell, sipa: thanks for your input but that won't help
2717 2014-03-13 22:46:15 <goatpig> im from armory
2718 2014-03-13 22:46:34 <goatpig> currently we have to adapt our fee to the latest bitcoinqt/bitcoind rules
2719 2014-03-13 22:46:40 <goatpig> the issue occurs when users have older versions
2720 2014-03-13 22:46:45 <denisx> is there still the list with the longest running bitcoin nodes?
2721 2014-03-13 22:46:57 <goatpig> and what armory guesses is proper fee won't propagate cuz the underlying bitcoind instance rejects it
2722 2014-03-13 22:47:02 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: the minfee for relay is changed, yes, though I don't know that it should change your behavior, since producing transactions at that level can result in rather large delays just due to fee competition.
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2725 2014-03-13 22:47:25 <gmaxwell> The wallet behavior hasn't changed.
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2731 2014-03-13 22:50:34 <goatpig> gmaxwell: if i feed a transaction to bitcoind using decoderawtransaction, will it let me know if the fee is valid? or does that have to have a signature already?
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2733 2014-03-13 22:51:28 <jakov> try it
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2735 2014-03-13 22:51:50 <goatpig> if no one knows ima have to
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2737 2014-03-13 22:52:21 <gmaxwell> No. It's not a question of validity, any fee is "valid". Low fees on low priority transactions will not be relayed. Also, as was pointed out before, fees cannot be computed without accounting for the signature sizes, so a transaction can't be tested for passing the relay rule without knowing how large the signatures will be.
2738 2014-03-13 22:53:15 <gmaxwell> I don't think jakov was suggesting that no one knows, but just that you could have tried it in less time than it took to ask.
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2740 2014-03-13 22:54:07 <goatpig> i was hoping asking bad questions will give me answers with clues as to where to look
2741 2014-03-13 22:54:49 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: right now ARmory has to hard reject anythign that doesn't meet relay rules
2742 2014-03-13 22:55:05 <etotheipi_> I want to make sure we know how to do that based on the version of coreBTC connected
2743 2014-03-13 22:55:19 <etotheipi_> it may make sense to leave the default fee where it is, but just change that lower-bound
2744 2014-03-13 22:56:03 <jalla2000> Guys. Why don't we all run clients that drop transactions from outputs older than for example 10 years? Then we would eventually know how many coins are actually lost, and if satoshi still has his keys
2745 2014-03-13 22:56:04 rdymac has joined
2746 2014-03-13 22:56:05 <etotheipi_> do we expect fee competition to become a major factor in the near future?  are we nearing that?
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2748 2014-03-13 22:57:04 <LarsLarsen> jalla: ask us again in 5 years
2749 2014-03-13 22:57:17 <gmaxwell> There is some active fee competition now, at least if you're producing transactions right at the minimum.
2750 2014-03-13 22:57:27 <jalla2000> LarsLarsen: why?
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2752 2014-03-13 22:57:54 <LarsLarsen> jalla2000: If the limit is 10 years,  we don't have any transactons like that... so its merely academic until then
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2754 2014-03-13 22:58:21 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: in any case, producing right at the limit of your local node is not a good idea since your local node is quite possibly imposing lower fees than the bulk of the network.
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2756 2014-03-13 22:58:39 <jalla2000> LarsLarsen: We could make it 5 years, or whatever. The points is to have some time-cutoff
2757 2014-03-13 22:58:58 <gmaxwell> This is why historically we've adjusted the relay rule first and in a later version changed the wallet behavior.
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2759 2014-03-13 22:59:02 <LarsLarsen> jalla2000: We also dont NEED to know how many keys are lost vs hoarded
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2762 2014-03-13 23:00:12 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: this isn't about what's recommended... it's about setting the hard lower limit... i'm happy to keep the recommended value sane
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2764 2014-03-13 23:00:36 <LarsLarsen> jalla2000: why?  You have to convince all users there is a compelling reason to do it.  A VERY compelling one since it might break everything.
2765 2014-03-13 23:00:49 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: any plans to support multisig?
2766 2014-03-13 23:01:00 <gmaxwell> I'm not even talking about recommended there though. E.g. your hard configurable limit being equal to the local node is not helpful if the surrounding network won't relay the transaction.
2767 2014-03-13 23:01:08 <jalla2000> LarsLarsen: It could increase stability and price. Miners want that
2768 2014-03-13 23:01:13 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: of course
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2770 2014-03-13 23:01:21 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: after this next version is out, that's my top priority
2771 2014-03-13 23:01:40 <LarsLarsen> jalla2000: This is not really a development question
2772 2014-03-13 23:02:18 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I understand
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2774 2014-03-13 23:02:40 <jalla2000> LarsLarsen: true. it's kindof more bitcoin politics
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2776 2014-03-13 23:02:45 <LarsLarsen> jalla2000: why don't we make bitcoin into an ice cream stand instead?  Well... I dont know...
2777 2014-03-13 23:02:53 <jalla2000> I'll see myself out
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2779 2014-03-13 23:04:54 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I still want the correct information in the client regardless of whether it's a good idea... it's my responsibility to make sure that information is used properly (such as strongly discouraging using that lower limit and making users aware that it was their own fault if their tx get stuck)
2780 2014-03-13 23:06:08 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: sure. Sounds like you just need getinfo to return the current relay fee.
2781 2014-03-13 23:06:27 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: that's exactly what we want!
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2783 2014-03-13 23:06:32 <etotheipi_> getinfo returns that?
2784 2014-03-13 23:06:36 hanti is now known as HANTI
2785 2014-03-13 23:07:12 <etotheipi_> wait, it's not exactly what we want, because we're not always connected via RPC.... so it doesn't help us all the time
2786 2014-03-13 23:07:26 <gmaxwell> Then there is no way to help you.
2787 2014-03-13 23:07:27 <etotheipi_> a peer message would be perfect... but that's a lot to ask for
2788 2014-03-13 23:07:37 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: is that data already provided by getinfo?
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2791 2014-03-13 23:08:09 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: no, it's not— no one has asked before. probably because the behavior is relatively static. It would be a one line change to add it... and I think it sounds reasonable to have.
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2801 2014-03-13 23:09:59 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I think it is reasonable...
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2803 2014-03-13 23:10:16 <gmaxwell> I'll go do that.
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2805 2014-03-13 23:10:27 <etotheipi_> was there any talk about having a peer message?  I seem to remember a long time ago people talking about the idea of querying your peers to get a sense of acceptable fees
2806 2014-03-13 23:10:39 <etotheipi_> but of course, that's a much bigger change, just curious about that
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2820 2014-03-13 23:12:50 <midnightmagic> fyi: there was a user a few days ago who was tring to directly cmpare and/or construct a higher-priority transaction and thus participate directly in the fee market. For that user, base fees weren't what he wanted to do, and getrawmempool was *almost* there. I realised when I was chatting with him there are other somewhat hidden priorities that might be helpful to users to let them spend. Like, "given input tx, how high priority
2821 2014-03-13 23:12:56 <midnightmagic> would it be if it entered the local mempool" so they can initiate a fee payment without guessing.
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2823 2014-03-13 23:13:32 <LarsLarsen> If you know what fees got accepted,  and what got rejected,  you could calculate a probability that a transaction of a given size with a given fee would be accepted.
2824 2014-03-13 23:13:39 <LarsLarsen> (by the miners)
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2827 2014-03-13 23:14:52 <goatpig> so compare fees in mempool vs latest block and estimate something out of it?
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2829 2014-03-13 23:15:09 <goatpig> that leaves the issue of users running older versions of bitcoin
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2831 2014-03-13 23:16:09 <LarsLarsen> And keep a sliding window of recent blocks
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2834 2014-03-13 23:16:20 <goatpig> hmm
2835 2014-03-13 23:16:50 <goatpig> then the broadcast issue cuold be fixed by forwarding the signed tx to a centralized emitter running the latest version
2836 2014-03-13 23:17:03 <goatpig> that would obfuscate the emitter location to a certain extent
2837 2014-03-13 23:17:07 <goatpig> is that good practice?
2838 2014-03-13 23:18:14 <LarsLarsen> goatpig: yes but over several blocks because not every block is by the same miner
2839 2014-03-13 23:18:17 <LarsLarsen> goatpig: its more of a feature,  allow people to know what kind of probability assurance they are buying.  Instead of wildly overpaying just to be sure,  which wont work because how much is everyone else overpaying (assuming we get towards scarcity)
2840 2014-03-13 23:18:55 loltu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2842 2014-03-13 23:19:17 <LarsLarsen> goatpig: a wallet could do this on its own,  we dont need to make it the protocol by which miners decide what the fee should be,  or how the default client should decide.  It would be just a tool.
2843 2014-03-13 23:19:34 <goatpig> this is all for Armory only
2844 2014-03-13 23:19:47 jordandotdev has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2845 2014-03-13 23:19:58 <goatpig> just looking for solutions that can be implemented unilaterally on our end
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2847 2014-03-13 23:20:14 <LarsLarsen> goatpig: I understand,  I use armory... so I'm baiting you to love my pet feature
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2849 2014-03-13 23:20:48 <goatpig> we'd like to have a system that adapts automatically to fee rules changes rather than hardcoding these ourselves
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2851 2014-03-13 23:21:02 <LarsLarsen> goatpig: if you have that data,  you can do whatever you want....
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2853 2014-03-13 23:21:04 <goatpig> your solution + forwarding the txn to an emitter would get it going
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2855 2014-03-13 23:21:14 <goatpig> we have the mempool and all blocks locally
2856 2014-03-13 23:21:26 <goatpig> so nothing to stop us here
2857 2014-03-13 23:21:39 <LarsLarsen> goatpig: I would add a sliding window of statistics about previous n blocks
2858 2014-03-13 23:21:45 <goatpig> obviously
2859 2014-03-13 23:21:51 <goatpig> something like last 20
2860 2014-03-13 23:21:54 <LarsLarsen> goatpig: and current unaccepted TX at those points
2861 2014-03-13 23:21:58 <goatpig> or even a full day
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2863 2014-03-13 23:22:06 <goatpig> well
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2865 2014-03-13 23:22:13 <LarsLarsen> goatpig: enough so that you get a good distribution of miners (elegius pops up at least once)
2866 2014-03-13 23:22:21 <goatpig> consider txn life in mempool vs amount of blocks emitted
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2869 2014-03-13 23:22:38 <goatpig> that sounds like a plan
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2873 2014-03-13 23:22:55 <goatpig> ill run it by etotheipi see what he has to say
2874 2014-03-13 23:23:01 <goatpig> thanks for the help
2875 2014-03-13 23:23:03 <LarsLarsen> goatpig: I like it.... because really,  people pay for assurance,  which is quantifiable.... IMHO
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2878 2014-03-13 23:23:52 <LarsLarsen> goatpig: awesome,  thanks for the software!
2879 2014-03-13 23:23:57 <goatpig> =P
2880 2014-03-13 23:24:10 <goatpig> i'd say it's a smarter way to look at it
2881 2014-03-13 23:24:18 <midnightmagic> goatpig: well the only information the local client has is the mempool of the local node.
2882 2014-03-13 23:24:20 <goatpig> and yes it can provide advanced features later on
2883 2014-03-13 23:24:21 <midnightmagic> (and I guess prior blocks which I think is what gavin was talking about for fee estimation wasn't he?)
2884 2014-03-13 23:24:21 <LarsLarsen> ITs the way I would look at it unilaterally
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2889 2014-03-13 23:25:05 <goatpig> midnightmagic: not necessarely, the local node can see the life of a transactions it has in its mempool
2890 2014-03-13 23:25:12 <goatpig> anything that sits there for more than a block
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2892 2014-03-13 23:25:15 <LarsLarsen> mightnightmagic: do miner nodes not relay?  Could someone send a transaction to a miner and hide it from the global mempool?
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2894 2014-03-13 23:26:00 <goatpig> at any rate that would hit a block and the local node would be aware of it
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2896 2014-03-13 23:26:12 <LarsLarsen> goatpig: I would say,  you're looking at statistics,  so,  unless the missing information would skew the results,  who cares?
2897 2014-03-13 23:26:16 <midnightmagic> goatpig:  "what's in its local mempool"
2898 2014-03-13 23:26:16 <midnightmagic> geh, connection is terrible here. sorry, gotta go or my head's gonna explode.
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2905 2014-03-13 23:27:03 <LarsLarsen> goatpig: I am not an authority on mempool limbo or miners filtering rules
2906 2014-03-13 23:27:05 <goatpig> oh you're implying a big emitter could skew his own statistics by filling up his mempool with his own transactions?
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2908 2014-03-13 23:27:41 <goatpig> well i think the stat should mainly be built on blocks rather than the mempool
2909 2014-03-13 23:27:57 <goatpig> the pool can be used to estimate inclusion threshold though
2910 2014-03-13 23:27:58 <LarsLarsen> goatpig: but at a design level,  that is where I Would start
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2913 2014-03-13 23:28:38 <goatpig> currently we want automated fee calculation for acceptation
2914 2014-03-13 23:28:51 <goatpig> then it can be tweaked for lowest fee and top priority
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2916 2014-03-13 23:29:20 <LarsLarsen> goatpig: ok,  so if bitcoind can expire old TX's,  you need to just snapshot the txid's and values,  and then keep an eye for them in the future blocks
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2919 2014-03-13 23:29:33 <goatpig> indeed
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2921 2014-03-13 23:29:51 <goatpig> Armory's mempool is managed independently of bitcoind's
2922 2014-03-13 23:30:14 <goatpig> i can have some liberty with it
2923 2014-03-13 23:30:16 <LarsLarsen> goatpig: I know,  armory-qt keeps crashing in windows,  I Watch it build many times a day :P
2924 2014-03-13 23:30:27 <goatpig> =P
2925 2014-03-13 23:30:36 <goatpig> next version should help a lot on that front
2926 2014-03-13 23:30:42 <LarsLarsen> goatpig: rock solid in ubuntu,  so I dont care
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2930 2014-03-13 23:31:19 <goatpig> i gotta get back to work
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3044 2014-03-13 23:58:42 <tiago> Hi. I am trying to compile bitcoin with gitian but I'm getting this error. Does anyone know how to fix this?
3045 2014-03-13 23:58:43 <tiago> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=p0tfZgWj
3046 2014-03-13 23:58:52 <tiago> "ssh: connect to host localhost port 2223: Connection refused"
3047 2014-03-13 23:59:28 TheCleanGame has joined