1 2014-03-16 00:00:09 <copumpkin> you're taking the search space down to whatever key is
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   4 2014-03-16 00:00:54 <copumpkin> pbkdf2 is a more principled way to do that sort of thing, but it really depends on what you're after
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   6 2014-03-16 00:01:30 <CheckDavid> The point of this would be to effectively have a brainwallet
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   9 2014-03-16 00:02:24 <copumpkin> well, just make sure you have a large enough search space :)
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  13 2014-03-16 00:03:15 <CheckDavid> copumpkin: is that to me?
  14 2014-03-16 00:03:25 <copumpkin> yup
  15 2014-03-16 00:03:30 <CheckDavid> Ohh
  16 2014-03-16 00:03:36 <CheckDavid> I am not following
  17 2014-03-16 00:03:47 <CheckDavid> What do you mean by search space @
  18 2014-03-16 00:04:44 <copumpkin> if your key is an 8-character alphanumeric "password", I can trivially generate all of your keys and steal your stuff
  19 2014-03-16 00:04:50 <shadders> Is there a library of invalid/valid but non-standard transactions anywhere?  playing with a testing suite for tx verification but the blockchain isn't a good source of invalid txs.
  20 2014-03-16 00:05:13 <copumpkin> if your key is 100 random characters long, that might be harder
  21 2014-03-16 00:05:29 <copumpkin> if your key is a passage from a book, it's long but not as hard
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  23 2014-03-16 00:07:00 <sipa> jcorgan: yes, the second one overwrites the first one
  24 2014-03-16 00:07:12 <jcorgan> thks
  25 2014-03-16 00:07:19 <sipa> jcorgan: which is a problem if the first one wasn't entire spent, and the second gets reorganize away
  26 2014-03-16 00:07:46 <jcorgan> it seems like a "don't do that" situation
  27 2014-03-16 00:07:59 <jcorgan> but someone did :)
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  31 2014-03-16 00:08:53 <CheckDavid> copumpkin: so in one word is about entropy right?
  32 2014-03-16 00:08:55 zone117x has joined
  33 2014-03-16 00:09:01 <copumpkin> yes
  34 2014-03-16 00:09:28 <copumpkin> or some fundamental notion of complexity that entropy might not capture adequately
  35 2014-03-16 00:09:30 <jcorgan> of course now it can't happen, right? (block height is part of the txid input)
  36 2014-03-16 00:09:33 <CheckDavid> And it's also about knowing which hashing algorithms I am using
  37 2014-03-16 00:09:36 Emzy has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
  38 2014-03-16 00:09:45 <CheckDavid> Or even how i chain them
  39 2014-03-16 00:10:31 <copumpkin> sure, it's just about a space to search. You can do all sorts of convoluted things that will make it hard for someone to guess, but I just wanted to point out that the scheme you described was trivial
  40 2014-03-16 00:10:56 <jcorgan> wait, that can't be right (my last comment)
  41 2014-03-16 00:11:04 <CheckDavid> Yes I know. It's very basic
  42 2014-03-16 00:11:07 <copumpkin> you can also use a seeded random number generator and several other approaches
  43 2014-03-16 00:11:14 <CheckDavid> But I gotta start somewhere
  44 2014-03-16 00:11:35 <copumpkin> I just don't want you becoming the latest low-complexity brainwallet victim
  45 2014-03-16 00:11:47 <CheckDavid> copumpkin: that's what sha256 is right?
  46 2014-03-16 00:12:06 <CheckDavid> He he thanks
  47 2014-03-16 00:12:18 <jcorgan> CheckDavid: private keys and passwords have two very different attack surfaces, don't confuse them
  48 2014-03-16 00:12:28 <copumpkin> sha256 is what?
  49 2014-03-16 00:12:55 <CheckDavid> jcorgan: how do you think I could be confusing them?
  50 2014-03-16 00:13:06 <jcorgan> private keys should always be generated with a full 256 bits of entropy, like from os.urandom()
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  52 2014-03-16 00:13:23 <CheckDavid> copumpkin: seeded rng
  53 2014-03-16 00:13:35 <copumpkin> CheckDavid: not really, although you could use it as one
  54 2014-03-16 00:13:48 <CheckDavid> I see
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  56 2014-03-16 00:14:04 <copumpkin> anyway, I'm mostly with jcorgan here :)
  57 2014-03-16 00:14:09 <jcorgan> because private keys sit out the block chain (after conversion to pubkey then address) where anyone can try to guess the private key
  58 2014-03-16 00:14:11 <copumpkin> in case it wasn't obvious
  59 2014-03-16 00:14:32 <jcorgan> at their leisure, with arbitrary amounts of compute power and time
  60 2014-03-16 00:14:57 <jcorgan> if you want to have "passphrase" convenience, look at pbkdf2
  61 2014-03-16 00:15:18 <copumpkin> but then the real key needs to live somewhere other than your brain, which is what CheckDavid wanted
  62 2014-03-16 00:15:20 <CheckDavid> I am aware that one does not required the block chain for an attack of that sort
  63 2014-03-16 00:15:54 <copumpkin> CheckDavid: I think a better approach to brainwallets than generating weak keys that someone can remember is to figure out clever mnemonics that allow humans to remember strong keys
  64 2014-03-16 00:16:07 <copumpkin> if you absolutely must have a brainwallet :P
  65 2014-03-16 00:16:49 <CheckDavid> copumpkin: wow... Someone told me exactly that on #bitcoin
  66 2014-03-16 00:16:59 <CheckDavid> Do you have another nick?
  67 2014-03-16 00:17:05 <copumpkin> no, I avoid that place like the plague
  68 2014-03-16 00:17:07 <copumpkin> but it's not a new idea
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  70 2014-03-16 00:17:26 <copumpkin> "don't use weak keys" isn't controversial :)
  71 2014-03-16 00:17:48 <CheckDavid> He worded it so similarly
  72 2014-03-16 00:19:11 <CheckDavid> copumpkin: why do you assume they are weak keys?
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  74 2014-03-16 00:19:25 <copumpkin> you're giving them some structure
  75 2014-03-16 00:19:39 <CheckDavid> True
  76 2014-03-16 00:19:41 <copumpkin> chances are they'll be less random than 256 bits or you'd just memorize the original thing
  77 2014-03-16 00:19:47 <jcorgan> the types of keys that humans can remember are precisely those that have structure that makes them less random
  78 2014-03-16 00:20:05 <CheckDavid> But most probably would be the concatenation of several pieces of information
  79 2014-03-16 00:20:46 <sipa> any key a human can come up with is massively weaker than a randomly generated one
  80 2014-03-16 00:21:06 <sipa> just because humans are notoriously bad at guessing randomness
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  82 2014-03-16 00:21:54 <CheckDavid> sipa: the idea of generating my own entropy and keys is incredibly appealing to me
  83 2014-03-16 00:22:07 <sipa> CheckDavid: then you probably shouldn't
  84 2014-03-16 00:22:18 <CheckDavid> The fun thing about this, is how much of a coding noob I am
  85 2014-03-16 00:22:21 <sipa> it's a very appealing idea, i know
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  88 2014-03-16 00:22:41 <jcorgan> CheckDavid: you may change your mind about that when you mysteriously find that your BTC has been spent
  89 2014-03-16 00:22:50 <sipa> a computer-generated key and memorize that is fine
  90 2014-03-16 00:23:07 <sipa> but generating yourself, except through a system like diceware
  91 2014-03-16 00:23:13 <sipa> will massively limit the entro[y
  92 2014-03-16 00:23:23 <CheckDavid> jcorgan: I can't possibly imagine any attack vector that would give any considerable chances of being stolen
  93 2014-03-16 00:23:43 <jcorgan> guessing weak passphrases
  94 2014-03-16 00:23:46 <sipa> note that you expose yourself the a perpetual global attack
  95 2014-03-16 00:23:56 <sipa> as opposed to for example a login for a site
  96 2014-03-16 00:24:01 <jcorgan> ^^
  97 2014-03-16 00:24:07 <sipa> where the number of attempts per second that can be done is very low
  98 2014-03-16 00:24:12 <CheckDavid> jcorgan: not just weak. They need to know my algorithms
  99 2014-03-16 00:24:19 <sipa> CheckDavid: no they don't
 100 2014-03-16 00:24:20 <jcorgan> assume they do
 101 2014-03-16 00:24:44 <copumpkin> CheckDavid: your algorithms will be stored somewhere?
 102 2014-03-16 00:24:48 <sipa> you essentially make your algoritm the private key
 103 2014-03-16 00:25:12 <CheckDavid> sipa: what's the problem of a weak password. If they don't know my algorithms?
 104 2014-03-16 00:25:20 <copumpkin> your algorithm is part of the key
 105 2014-03-16 00:25:25 <sipa> CheckDavid: as i said, the algorihm becomes the key
 106 2014-03-16 00:25:30 <copumpkin> either you store it somewhere, or you remember it
 107 2014-03-16 00:25:34 <copumpkin> in which case it probably isn't very random
 108 2014-03-16 00:25:40 <sipa> your security start to rely on become security through obscurity
 109 2014-03-16 00:25:51 <sipa> their inability to not guess how your brain functions
 110 2014-03-16 00:25:51 gasteve has joined
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 112 2014-03-16 00:25:51 gasteve has joined
 113 2014-03-16 00:26:02 <sipa> let me tell you this: there aren't that many things humans come up with randomly
 114 2014-03-16 00:26:06 <jcorgan> CheckDavid: there is a reason several people are all telling you the same thing
 115 2014-03-16 00:26:18 <copumpkin> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=251037.0
 116 2014-03-16 00:26:19 <CheckDavid> copumpkin: they may be public algorithms. And I may chain them in my own way
 117 2014-03-16 00:26:30 <copumpkin> CheckDavid: your own chaining approach is part of the key, then
 118 2014-03-16 00:26:32 <sipa> CheckDavid: and that chaining becomes your private key
 119 2014-03-16 00:26:38 <CheckDavid> jcorgan: and there is a reason I am listening to you all :)
 120 2014-03-16 00:26:56 <sipa> the problem is not that this mechanism is inherently bad for generating entropy
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 122 2014-03-16 00:27:02 <sipa> the problem is that you cannot measure it
 123 2014-03-16 00:27:05 <copumpkin> CheckDavid: in theory, there are infinite ways to chain the algorithms and pick them, but in practice, you're a human and will pick simple ones that we can search
 124 2014-03-16 00:27:19 <sipa> it is near impossible to guess how much mixing you need to add
 125 2014-03-16 00:27:36 AriseChikun has joined
 126 2014-03-16 00:27:38 <sipa> and in the end, it is much easier to just have a computer generate 128 bits for you, turn it into a sentence, and memorize that
 127 2014-03-16 00:27:42 <sipa> it's just a bunch of words
 128 2014-03-16 00:27:58 <CheckDavid> Ah I see
 129 2014-03-16 00:28:02 <sipa> and you have an entropy that is guaranteed to be as good as the cryptography further on provides
 130 2014-03-16 00:28:11 <jcorgan> bip39 is a proposed standard for this
 131 2014-03-16 00:28:23 Neozonz has joined
 132 2014-03-16 00:28:26 <CheckDavid> But I can have phrases that are up to 100 characters
 133 2014-03-16 00:28:32 yubrew has joined
 134 2014-03-16 00:28:36 <sipa> CheckDavid: so?
 135 2014-03-16 00:28:42 <CheckDavid> Even though with some human structure
 136 2014-03-16 00:29:04 <sipa> CheckDavid: i can say i can come up with sentences that are 1000 characters long, but all consist of repeating dictionary words
 137 2014-03-16 00:29:07 <CheckDavid> It would have some computer generated entropy as part of it
 138 2014-03-16 00:29:11 <sipa> the length doesn't matter
 139 2014-03-16 00:29:17 <sipa> the way you generate it does
 140 2014-03-16 00:29:17 <nsh> (the human brain is better at finding ways to remember unpredictable things than generating them)
 141 2014-03-16 00:29:44 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 142 2014-03-16 00:29:52 <CheckDavid> Interesting nsh
 143 2014-03-16 00:30:05 <CheckDavid> But it's still bad at that
 144 2014-03-16 00:30:06 <sipa> yeah, humans tend to see more patterns than there are
 145 2014-03-16 00:30:29 <sipa> CheckDavid: if you're paranoid, let a computer generate a 128-bit entropy sentence, and add some stuff of your own
 146 2014-03-16 00:30:38 Neozonz has quit (Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 147 2014-03-16 00:31:18 <CheckDavid> So hard to memorize today :p
 148 2014-03-16 00:31:21 <CheckDavid> *that
 149 2014-03-16 00:31:27 <sipa> oh come on
 150 2014-03-16 00:31:30 <jcorgan> you can encode 128-bits of entropy in 12 words chosen from a list of 2048 words.
 151 2014-03-16 00:31:34 <sipa> people memorize entire plays
 152 2014-03-16 00:31:37 ziggamon has joined
 153 2014-03-16 00:31:50 <warren> [btc@perilous ~]$ bitcoind getdifficulty .... 1.00000000
 154 2014-03-16 00:32:03 cheetah2 has joined
 155 2014-03-16 00:32:11 <warren> mining testnet for the past day at 200MH, mostly difficulty 1, zero blocks
 156 2014-03-16 00:32:22 <CheckDavid> sipa: plays have lots of redundancy you can mess a bit
 157 2014-03-16 00:32:25 <sipa> the number of digits of Pi that i know by heart is over 160 bits
 158 2014-03-16 00:32:28 <cheetah2> how is it that the blockchain.info api is used?
 159 2014-03-16 00:32:42 <cheetah2> it seems its a url
 160 2014-03-16 00:32:50 <sipa> and that is in a very human-non-friendly format
 161 2014-03-16 00:32:55 <cheetah2> how do i send it on php?
 162 2014-03-16 00:32:56 * nsh knows an infinite number of digits of pi -- they're just not consecutive
 163 2014-03-16 00:33:00 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 164 2014-03-16 00:33:11 <nsh> :)
 165 2014-03-16 00:33:21 <CheckDavid> sipa: you are aware that even in a group of math nerds that is rare lil
 166 2014-03-16 00:33:23 <jcorgan> if someone offered you $600 to memorize 12 words, would you take them up on that offer?
 167 2014-03-16 00:33:53 <sipa> CheckDavid: yeah, i think humans shouldn't bother remembering keys at all, but use secure hardware for that
 168 2014-03-16 00:34:05 <CheckDavid> jcorgan:maybe lol
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 170 2014-03-16 00:34:14 <sipa> CheckDavid: but if it appeals that much to you, i can only urge you to do it in a safe way (have at least 128 bits of entropy)
 171 2014-03-16 00:34:19 gasteve has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 172 2014-03-16 00:34:32 <CheckDavid> Ok
 173 2014-03-16 00:34:39 <jcorgan> CheckDavid: so, you agree then you could memorize 12 words
 174 2014-03-16 00:34:41 <CheckDavid> I guess that's the way I will have to do it
 175 2014-03-16 00:34:52 <CheckDavid> 128 bits of entropy
 176 2014-03-16 00:34:56 <CheckDavid> So be it
 177 2014-03-16 00:35:19 <sipa> (but please don't think that a list of 12 words that you choose will have 128 bits of entropy)
 178 2014-03-16 00:35:33 <CheckDavid> Haha no sipa
 179 2014-03-16 00:35:44 <sipa> :)
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 181 2014-03-16 00:35:50 ziggamon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 182 2014-03-16 00:35:56 <CheckDavid> But that is one I will have to think about
 183 2014-03-16 00:36:49 <CheckDavid> What if I pick 12 random words out of a dict?
 184 2014-03-16 00:36:54 <jcorgan> ;;google bip0039
 185 2014-03-16 00:36:54 <gribble> BIP 0039 - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0039>; Talk:BIP 0039 - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Talk:BIP_0039>; SourceForge.net: Bitcoin:: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=31386959>
 186 2014-03-16 00:37:10 <CheckDavid> I suppose it has more entropy than words from a 2048 words pool
 187 2014-03-16 00:37:11 <sipa> CheckDavid: same thing
 188 2014-03-16 00:37:18 <sipa> CheckDavid: you can't be the one who picks the words
 189 2014-03-16 00:37:24 <cheetah2> how does one send a url on php?
 190 2014-03-16 00:37:41 <CheckDavid> sipa: I pick (with a computer)
 191 2014-03-16 00:38:27 <CheckDavid> :p
 192 2014-03-16 00:38:38 <sipa> well, you pick, or the computer?
 193 2014-03-16 00:38:39 <jcorgan> you have a list of 2048 words already chosen in advance.  Then, generate 128 bits of random data with os.urandom().  Finally, encode those bits into 12 word list.
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 197 2014-03-16 00:42:48 <CheckDavid> sipa: I only operate the computer. The computer should do the picking
 198 2014-03-16 00:43:07 <CheckDavid> jcorgan: yeah I got the idea
 199 2014-03-16 00:43:11 <sipa> ok, then we're on the same page :)
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 207 2014-03-16 00:44:14 <CheckDavid> Such a dilemma this is :p
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 210 2014-03-16 00:45:36 <wbaw> if you pick 12 words from a dictionary randomly it should have 12^dict size combinations
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 212 2014-03-16 00:45:48 <wbaw> assuming the attacker knows the dictionary
 213 2014-03-16 00:45:58 <CheckDavid> I ser
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 215 2014-03-16 00:46:15 <CheckDavid> I should use a Latin dictionary
 216 2014-03-16 00:46:15 <CheckDavid> Lol
 217 2014-03-16 00:46:17 <wbaw> so that could be quite a lot of bits of entropy
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 219 2014-03-16 00:46:48 <wbaw> you can assume the attacker knows the dictionary
 220 2014-03-16 00:46:58 <CheckDavid> I see
 221 2014-03-16 00:47:04 <wbaw> as it'd be hard to hide
 222 2014-03-16 00:47:18 <dhill> fart into a microphone
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 224 2014-03-16 00:47:37 <CheckDavid> dhill: that is too predictable
 225 2014-03-16 00:47:55 <dhill> :P
 226 2014-03-16 00:47:55 <jcorgan> as long as you stick to 128 bits of random data, the attacker can know the dictionary in advance, they still need to brute force all the combinations
 227 2014-03-16 00:47:56 <CheckDavid> Some farts are too orderly
 228 2014-03-16 00:47:56 <wbaw> if you want to make it more memorable then you might need to apply some grammar rules, to get a random sentence
 229 2014-03-16 00:48:17 <wbaw> that will cut down the number of combinations drastically though
 230 2014-03-16 00:48:23 <jcorgan> wbaw then you'd need much more than 12 words
 231 2014-03-16 00:48:28 <CheckDavid> wbaw: that's decreasing entropy
 232 2014-03-16 00:48:32 <wbaw> to get 128bit?
 233 2014-03-16 00:48:33 <berndj> in the end you still have to remember 128 bits
 234 2014-03-16 00:48:54 wallet42 has joined
 235 2014-03-16 00:48:57 <wbaw> there are a lot of words in english though
 236 2014-03-16 00:49:01 <berndj> so either 12 random words, or a paragraph of not-so-random words
 237 2014-03-16 00:49:42 <CheckDavid> I should write a rap song as s pass phrase
 238 2014-03-16 00:49:42 <jcorgan> you make it more memorable by choosing the most common nouns and adjectives in the language to form your group of 2048
 239 2014-03-16 00:49:43 <CheckDavid> Lol
 240 2014-03-16 00:50:02 <wbaw> berndj, if your dictionary only has 11 words in it, that's true
 241 2014-03-16 00:50:36 <jcorgan> the word list itself doesn't have to be "random" or unguessable
 242 2014-03-16 00:50:44 <wbaw> just big
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 244 2014-03-16 00:51:14 <jcorgan> you just encode 11 bits by mapping it to one of 2048 words
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 246 2014-03-16 00:51:33 <berndj> small dict * many words, or large dict * few words both work, as long as size^N is large enough
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 248 2014-03-16 00:51:47 <jcorgan> correct.  large dict though makes the memorization more difficult
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 250 2014-03-16 00:52:14 <wbaw> there's over 100,000 words in english
 251 2014-03-16 00:52:24 <wbaw> in current use
 252 2014-03-16 00:52:44 <CheckDavid> OK I will generate an address with a memorizable pass phrase
 253 2014-03-16 00:52:55 <CheckDavid> Let's see of I can hack me :p
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 255 2014-03-16 00:52:59 <CheckDavid> Kidding
 256 2014-03-16 00:53:11 <nsh> memorability will depend more on the size of an individual's usage vocabulary than the 'total' language corpus
 257 2014-03-16 00:53:29 <jcorgan> ^^
 258 2014-03-16 00:53:54 <berndj> which is probably a few thousand words, rather than anywhere near 100000
 259 2014-03-16 00:53:58 <wbaw> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8013859.stm
 260 2014-03-16 00:54:03 <jcorgan> since the word list can be public, might as well choose from the most common words in the language
 261 2014-03-16 00:54:24 <CheckDavid> Not sure if I am into that word memorization thing
 262 2014-03-16 00:54:25 <wbaw> that says most normal uneducated english people know about 35,000 words
 263 2014-03-16 00:54:48 <nsh> discussed a bit here: http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/6010/are-there-20-000-english-words-in-the-average-adults-vocabulary
 264 2014-03-16 00:54:55 <berndj> know != use regularly
 265 2014-03-16 00:55:03 <jcorgan> and common words tend to be shorter too
 266 2014-03-16 00:55:13 <nsh> there are methodological problems with assessing average vocab size due to dictionaries and colloquial usage being not-entirely-overlapping, etc.
 267 2014-03-16 00:55:25 <wbaw> doesn't matter how long each word is
 268 2014-03-16 00:55:38 <CheckDavid> Entropy is one unintuitive bitch
 269 2014-03-16 00:55:50 <jcorgan> wbaw: i mean for storage purposes
 270 2014-03-16 00:55:54 <jcorgan> not entropy
 271 2014-03-16 00:56:05 <nsh> (well, it matters to the extent that the attacker can guess your dict contains smaller words with more confidence than longer words)
 272 2014-03-16 00:56:16 <wbaw> storage would be in your brain, that's the idea of making it more memorable
 273 2014-03-16 00:56:18 <jcorgan> nsh: the attacker is assumed to already know the dictionary
 274 2014-03-16 00:56:20 <nsh> k
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 276 2014-03-16 00:57:45 <jcorgan> CheckDavid: human intuition and cryptography don't mix well
 277 2014-03-16 00:58:05 <dhill> wait
 278 2014-03-16 00:58:10 <dhill> oops
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 280 2014-03-16 00:58:54 <wbaw> i think it'd be possible, with software, to create sentences that are secure & easy to memorise
 281 2014-03-16 00:58:57 <jrick> dhill: stay classy
 282 2014-03-16 00:59:13 <jcorgan> wbaw: brain storage is good until you have a stroke; always good to record those 12 words somewhere :)
 283 2014-03-16 00:59:22 <wbaw> maybe it'd need to be more than 12 words, but not much more with a large enough vocab
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 285 2014-03-16 01:00:03 <jcorgan> wbaw: so you'll be able to retrieve your bitcoin to pay for your stroke's medical care
 286 2014-03-16 01:00:18 <CheckDavid> jcorgan: true
 287 2014-03-16 01:00:25 <wbaw> that applies to any password though
 288 2014-03-16 01:00:30 <jcorgan> it does
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 292 2014-03-16 01:01:25 <wbaw> smart cards or something like that might replace passwords in more places
 293 2014-03-16 01:01:38 <wbaw> readers are cheap & easily available
 294 2014-03-16 01:02:19 <CheckDavid> What if one stores his pass phrase in a public place?
 295 2014-03-16 01:02:24 <CheckDavid> (Internet)
 296 2014-03-16 01:02:41 <CheckDavid> Part of it
 297 2014-03-16 01:03:33 <jcorgan> a smart card that would store an encrypted form of the HD wallet seed, encrypted with a key generated via PBKDF2, a data entry pad to bypass PC keyboard loggers, and the ability to sign transactions generated on a host PC, would be awesome
 298 2014-03-16 01:03:50 just[dead] is now known as justanotheruser
 299 2014-03-16 01:04:06 <wbaw> passwords are a poor stop gap solution
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 301 2014-03-16 01:04:33 <wbaw> maybe biometrics will work one day
 302 2014-03-16 01:04:49 <CheckDavid> jcorgan: wow
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 304 2014-03-16 01:05:00 <CheckDavid> Very paranoia
 305 2014-03-16 01:05:04 <CheckDavid> Such crypto
 306 2014-03-16 01:05:12 <CheckDavid> Many entropy
 307 2014-03-16 01:05:17 <jcorgan> biometrics aren't revokable
 308 2014-03-16 01:05:19 <CheckDavid> So security
 309 2014-03-16 01:05:25 <wbaw> how do you bypass pc loggers then?
 310 2014-03-16 01:05:29 <iwilcox> Have people been bitten heavily by rounding bugs in the past by representing Bitcoin amounts with their decimal points?
 311 2014-03-16 01:05:51 <jcorgan> wbaw: you have a data entry pad directly on the smart card
 312 2014-03-16 01:05:57 <berndj> jcorgan, yeah, whenever i see biometrics hailed as our saviour i wonder if i'm the only person alive who remembers the movie _Demolition Man_
 313 2014-03-16 01:06:06 ryanxcharles has joined
 314 2014-03-16 01:06:09 <jcorgan> lol
 315 2014-03-16 01:06:32 <wbaw> it's still relying on a password then though
 316 2014-03-16 01:06:34 <jcorgan> CheckDavid: let's take the rest of this conversation over to #bitcoin
 317 2014-03-16 01:06:36 wallet42 has joined
 318 2014-03-16 01:07:13 <wbaw> you would need to use multiple different biometrics & have them all be reliable for biometrics to work
 319 2014-03-16 01:07:19 <wbaw> it's far from that now
 320 2014-03-16 01:08:29 owowo has joined
 321 2014-03-16 01:09:18 <wbaw> there are a lot of obvious problems still to be resolved with biometrics
 322 2014-03-16 01:10:22 <wbaw> i'd be interested in a smartcard btc wallet if anybody wants to write an open source one
 323 2014-03-16 01:13:29 <jcorgan> wbaw: such a set up would be relying on a passphrase for access and to keep the wallet seed secure in case it is lost, but would still produce key pairs with full entropy
 324 2014-03-16 01:13:57 jerseykx has joined
 325 2014-03-16 01:15:01 <wbaw> i wasn't suggesting using that word method for generating keypairs, just the password to encrypt the wallet with
 326 2014-03-16 01:15:33 <warren> hmm, is the cpu minerd not a good choice for bitcoind testnet?  (is it notified of new blocks?)
 327 2014-03-16 01:15:37 <warren> mining for 24 hours and nothing
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 329 2014-03-16 01:17:50 <wbaw> it'd just be unnecessary overhead for generating a keypair & adding grammar rules to that would make it far too weak
 330 2014-03-16 01:19:37 <wbaw> it could be useful to make wallet pass phrases more memorable & still secure though
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 334 2014-03-16 01:21:39 <jcorgan> wbaw: i think we're talking about different things at this point
 335 2014-03-16 01:22:13 <jcorgan> anyway, i need to run, date night with wifey
 336 2014-03-16 01:22:16 <wbaw> i think maybe i missed the start of the convo
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 338 2014-03-16 01:22:43 <wbaw> just wanted to clarify i wasn't suggesting using words for private keys, that'd be dumb
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 340 2014-03-16 01:24:30 <wbaw> so, yeah, i was probably talking about something slightly different when i joined in half way through
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 362 2014-03-16 01:58:48 <jerseykx> hi. is anyone here familiar with both bip32 and bip39 and would like to review my design for server-protected 2of2 wallet which can be trusted even in case of compromised server?
 363 2014-03-16 01:59:40 <jerseykx> ('thin client' wallet)
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 377 2014-03-16 02:13:19 <airbreather> What's the heuristic that the mainline client uses for ignoring blocks on a fork that has no realistic chance of becoming the longest chain?  Is it just the last hardcoded checkpoint, or is it "current minus n blocks"?
 378 2014-03-16 02:13:42 <airbreather> Or some other fancy thing I didn't include in my guesses
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 385 2014-03-16 02:17:38 <sipa> airbreather: define 'ignoring'
 386 2014-03-16 02:17:47 <DorothyIV> Is there an equivalent of a signing a blank cheque transaction?
 387 2014-03-16 02:18:07 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 388 2014-03-16 02:18:24 <sipa> DorothyIV: yes, but it is completely unsafe
 389 2014-03-16 02:18:33 <sipa> as miners can rewrite where the money goes to
 390 2014-03-16 02:18:45 <DorothyIV> Aka in the situation where I have a multi-sig address, I have 1 party sign that they don't care where the funds go, and the second party sign where they go
 391 2014-03-16 02:19:01 <DorothyIV> sipa: well that's useless :P
 392 2014-03-16 02:19:16 <sipa> if one of the signers signs the outputs it is safe
 393 2014-03-16 02:19:23 yubrew has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 394 2014-03-16 02:19:49 gancl has joined
 395 2014-03-16 02:19:51 <DorothyIV> sipa: but assume I don't have the outputs known when the 1st party signs
 396 2014-03-16 02:20:20 <airbreather> sipa: I'm assuming that, for disk space purposes, the client doesn't store blocks whose prev-block-id is, for example, all the way back at the genesis block, since there's no chance that the creator is going to catch up
 397 2014-03-16 02:21:30 <sipa> DorothyIV: i never realized this
 398 2014-03-16 02:21:35 <sipa> DorothyIV: this is a very useful feature
 399 2014-03-16 02:22:02 <airbreather> otherwise attackers could start broadcasting an effectively unlimited amount of time-traveling chains of diff-1 blocks
 400 2014-03-16 02:22:43 <airbreather> which would be mostly invisible except a steadily increasing storage footprint
 401 2014-03-16 02:23:00 <sipa> airbreather: once you pass a checkpoint, forks before it are not accepted anymore
 402 2014-03-16 02:23:01 <DorothyIV> sipa: I'm asking if this is possible, not sure it is
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 404 2014-03-16 02:23:38 <sipa> DorothyIV: what's the purpose if the first party doesn't know the inputs and the outputs?
 405 2014-03-16 02:24:15 <sipa> you're better off not having them sign at all
 406 2014-03-16 02:24:15 <DorothyIV> sipa: to authorize the second party to have full control of the funds for the next transaction
 407 2014-03-16 02:24:27 <DorothyIV> in the event of a multi-sig address situation
 408 2014-03-16 02:24:28 <sipa> oh, that is possible
 409 2014-03-16 02:24:28 <airbreather> there's SIGHASH_NONE for this, right?
 410 2014-03-16 02:24:35 <sipa> sighash_node + anyonecansign
 411 2014-03-16 02:24:36 owowo has joined
 412 2014-03-16 02:25:25 <DorothyIV> I'll check it out, cheers
 413 2014-03-16 02:26:00 justanotheruser is now known as just[dead]
 414 2014-03-16 02:26:07 <DorothyIV> I mean, alternatively I just sign it to send to an address that the second party owns
 415 2014-03-16 02:27:20 lalopalo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 417 2014-03-16 02:30:10 <DorothyIV> thanks sipa
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 422 2014-03-16 02:33:45 <wbaw> what would be the advantage over just sending it to the second party?
 423 2014-03-16 02:34:21 just[dead] is now known as justanotheruser
 424 2014-03-16 02:34:24 <Dcousens> wbaw: A good explanation can be found on the stackexchange: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/4213/what-is-the-point-of-sighash-none
 425 2014-03-16 02:36:24 <wbaw> ah, so a group of people could send to a co-ordinator
 426 2014-03-16 02:37:13 <wbaw> and the transaction wouldn't go through unless all members of the group sent enough?
 427 2014-03-16 02:37:13 <Dcousens> wbaw: well, send the raw transaction to a coordinator, who then signs it at the end with a SIGHASH_ALL
 428 2014-03-16 02:37:34 <Dcousens> wbaw: that would be up to the coordinators discretion I assume
 429 2014-03-16 02:37:53 <wbaw> makes more sense with multiple first parties involved
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 433 2014-03-16 02:38:56 <Dcousens> sipa: in this situation (as described in that stack exchange), do all the inputs need to be known? Or can you build up more and more inputs in this case as more people sign?
 434 2014-03-16 02:39:11 <sipa> with anyonecansign, you don't need to know the inputs
 435 2014-03-16 02:39:12 <airbreather> If I understand it correctly, inputs need to be known
 436 2014-03-16 02:39:13 <airbreather> ?
 437 2014-03-16 02:39:20 <sipa> with sighash_none, the outputs don't need to be known
 438 2014-03-16 02:40:32 uiop has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 439 2014-03-16 02:41:10 <Dcousens> sipa: true. The contracts wiki page seems to describe them quite well.
 440 2014-03-16 02:41:18 drayah has joined
 441 2014-03-16 02:42:34 <airbreather> interestingly, it seems that a transaction with all SIGHASH_NONE inputs is basically a blank check to the miner, but if any one of those inputs is SIGHASH_ALL, then the miner can't change anything without invalidating the whole transaction
 442 2014-03-16 02:43:51 <airbreather> "to the miner" = it would wind up that way if this was actually happening frequently enough to justify special-casing
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 445 2014-03-16 02:45:23 <airbreather> yeah I should have read the stackexchange comment a bit more closely, because that's exactly what it says...
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 452 2014-03-16 02:50:12 <jgarzik> SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY
 453 2014-03-16 02:50:14 <jgarzik> love it :
 454 2014-03-16 02:50:16 <jgarzik> :)
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 466 2014-03-16 03:04:15 <Luke-Jr> sipa: why does Google Chrome think Bitcoin is malware?
 467 2014-03-16 03:04:19 aynstein has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 468 2014-03-16 03:05:06 <sipa> no clue
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 475 2014-03-16 03:14:56 <wbaw> are you sure it's chrome & not some av software?
 476 2014-03-16 03:15:03 <Luke-Jr> yes
 477 2014-03-16 03:15:08 <wbaw> is it the download or the website?
 478 2014-03-16 03:15:11 <Luke-Jr> Google Webmaster Tools claims it too
 479 2014-03-16 03:15:14 <Luke-Jr> wbaw: BFGMiner downloads
 480 2014-03-16 03:15:46 yubrew has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 481 2014-03-16 03:16:08 wallet42 has joined
 482 2014-03-16 03:17:53 <wbaw> it's either a false positive or a hacked/malicious website, know that's not very helpful
 483 2014-03-16 03:18:19 ziggamon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 484 2014-03-16 03:19:26 <wbaw> some anti-virus software give false positives for mining software
 485 2014-03-16 03:19:35 <Luke-Jr> wbaw: it's a false positive of course
 486 2014-03-16 03:19:42 <Luke-Jr> because the people doing this stuff are incompetent
 487 2014-03-16 03:20:11 Guest484 has left ()
 488 2014-03-16 03:20:11 <wbaw> and because people use mining software on hacked computers
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 499 2014-03-16 03:25:12 <wbaw> Luke-Jr, depending on the exact warning you got & where it could indicate a hacked website, but most likely a false positive due to incompetent av
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 502 2014-03-16 03:26:19 <Luke-Jr> wbaw: my website is where
 503 2014-03-16 03:27:00 aynstein has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 504 2014-03-16 03:27:01 <wbaw> and the warning was when you tried to download the file, or on the download page?
 505 2014-03-16 03:27:18 <Luke-Jr> I presume the file
 506 2014-03-16 03:27:40 NalloK has joined
 507 2014-03-16 03:28:03 <wbaw> if it was a hacked site warning it'd most likely block whole pages, not just downloads
 508 2014-03-16 03:28:18 digitalmagus2 has joined
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 510 2014-03-16 03:29:10 <wbaw> was it somebody else who got this warning & reported it?
 511 2014-03-16 03:29:48 <wbaw> they're probably running norton or something as bad
 512 2014-03-16 03:30:28 <wbaw> actually, what does webmaster tools say?
 513 2014-03-16 03:30:56 basva has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 514 2014-03-16 03:31:13 <wbaw> it's worth investigating if webmaster tools is warning you
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 516 2014-03-16 03:31:45 <wbaw> google isn't terrible for false positives
 517 2014-03-16 03:32:08 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 518 2014-03-16 03:33:15 <Luke-Jr> wbaw: they are now :/
 519 2014-03-16 03:33:34 <wbaw> the only time i had a warning like that it was real
 520 2014-03-16 03:34:10 <wbaw> although i don't host any coin mining software
 521 2014-03-16 03:35:33 <wbaw> only needs one outdated script somewhere & before you know it your website is trying to silently infect visitors with malware
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 525 2014-03-16 03:39:12 <wbaw> google are usually pretty fast to detect it too
 526 2014-03-16 03:40:23 <wbaw> was just a few hours for me
 527 2014-03-16 03:40:59 askmike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 528 2014-03-16 03:42:30 <wbaw> wasnt actually my site, just one i was contracted to work on
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 532 2014-03-16 03:46:47 <venzen> Google is one of the heads of the Beast :)
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 536 2014-03-16 03:48:44 <venzen> Google Chrome is built on Chromium browser, but with all those personal info and web "services" added
 537 2014-03-16 03:50:14 <venzen> so if anyone must do Chrome, try Chromium or you're going to smell the glove :D
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 539 2014-03-16 03:54:12 <antephialtic> anyone with experience running btcd?
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 541 2014-03-16 03:55:33 <dhill> me :)
 542 2014-03-16 03:56:23 <jrick> yep
 543 2014-03-16 03:56:28 <antephialtic> opinions?
 544 2014-03-16 03:56:33 <dhill> we are biased
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 547 2014-03-16 03:58:18 <antephialtic> understandable. how do you test for compatibility with bitcoind?
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 549 2014-03-16 03:59:39 <wbaw> with all their spying they're pretty good at detecting malware though
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 551 2014-03-16 04:00:01 <dhill> antephialtic: unit testing and reading source code
 552 2014-03-16 04:00:08 <wbaw> the massive amounts of data they collect is used for a few non-evil things, as well as the evil stuff
 553 2014-03-16 04:01:05 <jrick> antephialtic: davec is the one to talk to wrt the really important stuff (consensus)
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 568 2014-03-16 04:15:12 <Dcousens> dhill: and pray tell how your experience with btcd was?
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 572 2014-03-16 04:16:16 <dhill> Dcousens: like I said, i am biased.  it is the only full node software I run :)
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 578 2014-03-16 04:20:42 <Dcousens> dhill: I haven't read up much on it yet, how do you feel it compares to bitcoind (biased opinion or not)
 579 2014-03-16 04:22:36 <dhill> well first, i can't run bitcoind on my system (openbsd), but that isn't bitcoind's fault.  it is leveldb.  the library assumes UBC kernel, which openbsd doesn't have, so the databases always corrupt.  it would require patching leveldb.
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 582 2014-03-16 04:24:59 <dhill> but i believe it is on par with bitcoind.   we have a few extra features.  we currently have a few missing features.
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 587 2014-03-16 04:30:51 <Dcousens> dhill: how about memory requirements and performance compared to bitcoind?
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 589 2014-03-16 04:31:31 <dhill> btcd is currently using 172M on my machine
 590 2014-03-16 04:33:07 <jrick> that testnet? my testnet btcd is at 172M as well
 591 2014-03-16 04:33:15 <dhill> mainnet
 592 2014-03-16 04:33:29 <Dcousens> dhill: that is imrpessive, considering I can never keep a bitcoind node under 700M haha
 593 2014-03-16 04:33:52 <jrick> interesting, my mainnet (on windows) is at like 312M if task manager is to be believed
 594 2014-03-16 04:34:15 <jrick> been running for a week or so
 595 2014-03-16 04:34:34 <dhill> 16631 dhill     -5    0  172M  158M sleep/1   biowait  15:01  7.37% btcd
 596 2014-03-16 04:34:34 <dhill> 21730 dhill     28    0   43M   37M sleep/0   thrslee   0:09  0.00% btcd
 597 2014-03-16 04:34:42 <jrick> dhill: is that btcd compiled with go 1.2 or tip?
 598 2014-03-16 04:34:43 <dhill> top is mainnet, bottom is testnet
 599 2014-03-16 04:34:46 <dhill> tip
 600 2014-03-16 04:34:48 <jrick> ah ok
 601 2014-03-16 04:34:52 <jrick> probably explains it
 602 2014-03-16 04:35:11 <PRab> FYI, on my machine btcd = 346MB, bitcoin-qt = 210MB. Both mainnet
 603 2014-03-16 04:35:53 <jcorgan> i have a bitcoind node with 100 connections, the resident set in RAM is about 400M
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 642 2014-03-16 05:06:55 <Dcousens> jcorgan: interesting, even if I run a leech node I can't get it that low in mem :P
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 824 2014-03-16 08:40:29 <melik> how do we determine transaction size?
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 826 2014-03-16 08:40:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|melik: by looking at how many bytes it is?
 827 2014-03-16 08:41:16 <melik> michagogo|cloud, yes, but.
 828 2014-03-16 08:42:14 <melik> actually, how do we do that? sorry.
 829 2014-03-16 08:42:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|melik: uh, by taking the transaction and counting the bytes?
 830 2014-03-16 08:42:42 <melik> getrawtransaction gives me an output of 517 bytes
 831 2014-03-16 08:43:00 <melik> but blockchain.info and others claim tht its 252 bytes
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 833 2014-03-16 08:43:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you're looking at a transaction in hexadecimal, take the length and divide by 2
 834 2014-03-16 08:43:17 <melik> for exmaple, txid: 6ec92d5a479609a0803678b41a71d9c4317730750a2abf3c9ff25ffeb5c28c2d
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 836 2014-03-16 08:43:22 <melik> ah divide by 2!
 837 2014-03-16 08:43:25 <melik> that makes sense
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 839 2014-03-16 08:43:37 <melik> oh right it outputs in hex? so we have to divide by 2?
 840 2014-03-16 08:43:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes, 1 hex digit = 4 bits
 841 2014-03-16 08:43:49 <melik> cool cool, merci!
 842 2014-03-16 08:44:03 <melik> $ bitcoind getrawtransaction 6ec92d5a479609a0803678b41a71d9c4317730750a2abf3c9ff25ffeb5c28c2d | wc -c
 843 2014-03-16 08:44:03 <melik> 517
 844 2014-03-16 08:44:57 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wonders where the extra 13 characters are coming from
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 848 2014-03-16 08:45:53 <gmaxwell> Something keeps spamming me with old blocks after there is a new one on the network: http://0bin.net/paste/juFEDommG-cRHnVw#N5MZbbdkqAMZJf23GnG37RVFo8dF4UAURqNfP49Q6Fo=
 849 2014-03-16 08:46:05 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I'm connected to your relay thing, is it possible it's doing that?
 850 2014-03-16 08:46:11 <melik> anyways, thanks michagogo|cloud; have a good day
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 852 2014-03-16 08:46:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|melik: np, you too
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 854 2014-03-16 08:47:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Re: 5 hours ago
 855 2014-03-16 08:48:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I had Chrome warning me about the 0.9.0rc3 I built the other day because the file was "not commonly downloaded and could be dangerous"
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 857 2014-03-16 08:49:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And then my security software went ahead and deleted it, detecting it as an "Insight.Reputation" or something
 858 2014-03-16 08:49:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...because nobody had ever seen it before...
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 860 2014-03-16 08:51:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: wait, did it think a *release* version of Bitcoin was malware, or a build of yours?
 861 2014-03-16 08:52:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|4:41:40 <airbreather> interestingly, it seems that a transaction with all SIGHASH_NONE inputs is basically a blank check to the miner, but if any one of those inputs is SIGHASH_ALL, then the miner can't change anything without invalidating the whole transaction
 862 2014-03-16 08:52:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Except tbe miner can just remove the ALL-signed tx
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 874 2014-03-16 08:58:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Er, ALL-signed input
 875 2014-03-16 08:59:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(And only if the other inputs are anyonecanpay, actually.)
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 882 2014-03-16 09:03:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|warren: re: testnet mining
 883 2014-03-16 09:04:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You said "mostly difficulty 1", but then pasted the output of getdifficulty
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 886 2014-03-16 09:04:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is your miner (if you're not just using the built-in one) also reporting diff 1?
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 888 2014-03-16 09:05:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Guessing not, and getdifficulty returns the difficulty of the last block, not the current difficulty
 889 2014-03-16 09:05:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Meaning that on testnet, if it returns 1, you can't trust that because it may be the 20 minute rule
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 891 2014-03-16 09:06:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(If a block is timestamped at least 20 minutes after the last one it can be diff 1)
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 919 2014-03-16 09:28:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|20:44:43 <jupiterfunk> Hello.  In coinbase transaction, is total (combined) output value always total input value?
 920 2014-03-16 09:28:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Uh, what?
 921 2014-03-16 09:28:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|By definition, a coinbase transaction has no inputs
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 923 2014-03-16 09:30:10 <wumpus> only virtual inputs based on the block reward and fees from transactions in the block, and a coinbase transaction can claim a lower reward than the block reward + fees (in which case the extra coins just disappear)
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 948 2014-03-16 10:13:05 <xdotcomm_> having issues with getrawtransaction and txindex ... after I did txindex = 1 ... I dont see senders address in "vout" addresses
 949 2014-03-16 10:14:20 <Apocalyptic> this is not what txindex does, and there is no "sender" address
 950 2014-03-16 10:15:20 <xdotcomm_> Apocalyptic: txindex provides info from spent/unspent transactions right?
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 952 2014-03-16 10:15:44 <xdotcomm_> Apocalyptic: by senders address I mean at least one of the addresses used to generate the transaction
 953 2014-03-16 10:16:26 <Apocalyptic> txindex allows you to query for arbitraty txs with getrawtransaction, as opposed to txs related only to your wallet as it is without txindex
 954 2014-03-16 10:16:52 <Apocalyptic> *arbitrary
 955 2014-03-16 10:16:58 <xdotcomm_> Apocalyptic: in theory
 956 2014-03-16 10:17:22 <xdotcomm_> Apocalyptic: because in practice I only used it when getrawtransaction did not work for one of my transactions
 957 2014-03-16 10:17:34 <Apocalyptic> "addresses used to generate the transaction" I don't know what you mean by that
 958 2014-03-16 10:17:35 <xdotcomm_> i was getting the -5 error
 959 2014-03-16 10:17:59 <xdotcomm_> Apocalyptic: source addresses
 960 2014-03-16 10:18:11 <Apocalyptic> there is no from address, source address or whatever you call it
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 962 2014-03-16 10:18:18 <Apocalyptic> see the topic
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 964 2014-03-16 10:18:58 <xdotcomm_> Apocalyptic: on block explorers you see which addressess the coins came from
 965 2014-03-16 10:19:10 <Apocalyptic> sigh
 966 2014-03-16 10:19:25 <nsh> transactions spent unspent outputs from previous transactions
 967 2014-03-16 10:19:28 <nsh> *spend
 968 2014-03-16 10:20:42 <xdotcomm_> Ok
 969 2014-03-16 10:20:44 <xdotcomm_> http://dogechain.info/tx/aa2b44095694eee53e8e7f39490fce8d04d8b024e77ecaaa446e0beb601b7e1c
 970 2014-03-16 10:21:00 <xdotcomm_> there is a FROM ADDRESS
 971 2014-03-16 10:21:15 <xdotcomm_> Which are inputs
 972 2014-03-16 10:21:45 <xdotcomm_> I want to extract those reliably from blockhain
 973 2014-03-16 10:21:52 <jouke> a FROM ADDRESS ^_^
 974 2014-03-16 10:21:55 <jouke> addresses are a lie
 975 2014-03-16 10:21:59 <xdotcomm_> omg
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 977 2014-03-16 10:22:06 <Apocalyptic> seriously, referencing a dogecoin site in -dev
 978 2014-03-16 10:22:11 <Apocalyptic> to prove a point
 979 2014-03-16 10:22:18 <Apocalyptic> i think i've seen it all
 980 2014-03-16 10:22:25 <SomeoneWeird> altcoins are offtopic
 981 2014-03-16 10:22:26 <jouke> xdotcomm_: learn about script
 982 2014-03-16 10:22:31 <xdotcomm_> I actually thought I was in dogecoin-dev
 983 2014-03-16 10:22:32 <nsh> please have this conversation somewhere else or not at all. it does not have to do with the development of bitcoin client source code.
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 985 2014-03-16 10:22:38 <jouke> learn to understand how an address works
 986 2014-03-16 10:22:41 <xdotcomm_> I apologize but its the same protocol
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 988 2014-03-16 10:22:58 <Apocalyptic> and again there is no FROM address, no matter what a random site tells/shows you
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 990 2014-03-16 10:23:34 <xdotcomm_> Blockchain sites are able to reliably extract originating addresses
 991 2014-03-16 10:23:40 <xdotcomm_> thats what I want to do
 992 2014-03-16 10:23:51 <jouke> >_<
 993 2014-03-16 10:23:56 <jouke> learn to understand how an address works
 994 2014-03-16 10:23:58 <jouke> xdotcomm_: learn about script
 995 2014-03-16 10:24:12 <xdotcomm_> jouke: what script ?
 996 2014-03-16 10:24:16 <xdotcomm_> PHP / javascript ...
 997 2014-03-16 10:24:24 <jouke> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
 998 2014-03-16 10:24:37 <Apocalyptic> <xdotcomm_> thats what I want to do // just don't
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1000 2014-03-16 10:24:52 <Apocalyptic> it's just confusing everyone
1001 2014-03-16 10:24:57 <xdotcomm_> Apocalyptic: yea ok
1002 2014-03-16 10:25:04 <xdotcomm_> Its pretty simple
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1004 2014-03-16 10:25:09 <gmaxwell> xdotcomm_: transactions actually don't contain a from, what bc.i shows is a highly cooked view based on blockchain anylsis and it's sometimes misleading.
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1006 2014-03-16 10:25:30 <xdotcomm_> Transactions have inputs and outputs
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1008 2014-03-16 10:25:38 <xdotcomm_> inputs come from somewhere
1009 2014-03-16 10:25:43 <gmaxwell> people trying to grok out 'from' addresses based on the history have been responsible for losing a fair amount of other people's money, thus the JUST DON'T responses.
1010 2014-03-16 10:25:46 <xdotcomm_> they are not an illusion
1011 2014-03-16 10:26:12 <jouke> they are not
1012 2014-03-16 10:26:15 <jouke> but addresses are
1013 2014-03-16 10:26:21 <gmaxwell> xdotcomm_: transactions spend specific coins.  Those coins were previously sent to some specific scriptpubkey (which may not have an address), but that party may not be the From.
1014 2014-03-16 10:26:42 <xdotcomm_> I get all that
1015 2014-03-16 10:26:50 <Apocalyptic> you don't seem to really
1016 2014-03-16 10:26:58 <xdotcomm_> I just want to log input addresses
1017 2014-03-16 10:27:08 <xdotcomm_> I dont need a tour of reliability
1018 2014-03-16 10:27:21 <gmaxwell> xdotcomm_: for example. If I buy a cake from amazon. Then leave it at your desk. And you had a magical wand of object origin that worked like the blockchain does— perhaps it would tell you that amazon sent you the cake, which isn't very useful if you want to know who to thank for it. :)
1019 2014-03-16 10:27:23 <xdotcomm_> Its a straightforward question
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1021 2014-03-16 10:27:36 <gmaxwell> xdotcomm_: Sorry but we're not your paid support line.
1022 2014-03-16 10:27:38 <xdotcomm_> blockchain sites do it reliably
1023 2014-03-16 10:27:42 <Apocalyptic> they don't
1024 2014-03-16 10:27:48 <Apocalyptic> that's just what you think
1025 2014-03-16 10:27:49 <gmaxwell> It's actually _not_ reliable, and it's caused people to lose money.
1026 2014-03-16 10:28:09 <xdotcomm_> gmaxwell: proof / links ?
1027 2014-03-16 10:28:14 <venzen> xdotcomm_: jeez man, the corevs are telling you that the notion of 'from' addresses is mistaken, who will you belive?
1028 2014-03-16 10:28:15 <jouke> xdotcomm_: please, learn how transactions work before viewing it to people
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1031 2014-03-16 10:29:05 <xdotcomm_> jouke: which part of script should I be looking at?
1032 2014-03-16 10:29:23 <jouke> understand the notion of script and how transactions work
1033 2014-03-16 10:29:51 <jouke> Than it is easy to do make a site like blockexplorer and blockchain.info
1034 2014-03-16 10:30:27 <nsh> you could read this thread, and the threads linked from it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=135379.0
1035 2014-03-16 10:30:27 <gmaxwell> xdotcomm_: there are plenty of examples where using the prior to sent the funds to a no longer existing key or third party who wasn't the person making the payment, e.g. http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1pu8on/
1036 2014-03-16 10:30:57 <xdotcomm_> gmaxwell: we are talking about blockchain info reliability
1037 2014-03-16 10:31:13 <xdotcomm_> not sending funds to wrong person
1038 2014-03-16 10:31:23 <xdotcomm_> I want info... I dont want to send anybody anything
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1041 2014-03-16 10:31:44 <xdotcomm_> point unproven
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1043 2014-03-16 10:31:56 <xdotcomm_> u gave me a coinbase link
1044 2014-03-16 10:32:19 <xdotcomm_> Like I said I want to log them the same way blockchain does
1045 2014-03-16 10:32:21 <gmaxwell> xdotcomm_: I'm pointing out that the data you extract there does not actually identify the sender of the funds, it's generic and not specific to bc.i.
1046 2014-03-16 10:32:30 <xdotcomm_> I UNDERSTAND THAT
1047 2014-03-16 10:32:40 <Apocalyptic> no caps
1048 2014-03-16 10:32:53 <Apocalyptic> thanks
1049 2014-03-16 10:32:56 <venzen> lol
1050 2014-03-16 10:33:05 <gmaxwell> Sorry, no one should be treated like that. Thank you guys for trying to help him out.
1051 2014-03-16 10:33:11 * nsh nods
1052 2014-03-16 10:33:25 <jouke> He has enough info to work it out himself by now.
1053 2014-03-16 10:33:29 <gmaxwell> Hopefully he'll go cool off and either solve his own problems or realize that he doesn't get to yell at the volunteers here.
1054 2014-03-16 10:33:36 <Apocalyptic> he seems to not be able to read
1055 2014-03-16 10:33:36 <gmaxwell> Agreed.
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1072 2014-03-16 11:09:59 <xdotcomm_> getrawtransaction is not guaranteed to work on wallet transactions. It works on mempool transactions, and on blockchain transactions if txindex is enabled.
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1100 2014-03-16 11:54:03 <xdotcomm_> Topic says: No from address ... great then bitcoin is anonymous!
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1102 2014-03-16 11:55:04 <Apocalyptic> xdotcomm_, you're done trolling ?
1103 2014-03-16 11:55:27 <xdotcomm_> I am ready to learn!
1104 2014-03-16 11:57:26 <xdotcomm_> getrawtransaction -> vout -> scriptPubKey -> addresses used to have an "address" of interest in bitcoind 8.1
1105 2014-03-16 11:57:49 <xdotcomm_> but then I ran areindex with  txindex =1
1106 2014-03-16 11:58:15 <xdotcomm_> and it vanished ... only showing 1 address which is the local address
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1108 2014-03-16 11:59:11 <gmaxwell> xdotcomm_: it never did, it can't— the transactions don't actually contain the data.
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1110 2014-03-16 11:59:50 <gmaxwell> the vouts have the data, but the vins don't.
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1113 2014-03-16 12:00:10 <gmaxwell> (also there isn't guarentted to be an addresses field for vouts either)
1114 2014-03-16 12:01:06 <xdotcomm_> gmaxwell: what do you mean no guarantee ?
1115 2014-03-16 12:01:21 <gmaxwell> e.g. getrawtransaction a60143eb3f8d3cd1f42cca874f35736186d67c488efd3c1b7214bbd74b310e0c 1
1116 2014-03-16 12:01:45 <gmaxwell> no address field in the vout there. the transaction actually doesn't involve an address at all.
1117 2014-03-16 12:01:53 <gmaxwell> (well on the output side)
1118 2014-03-16 12:02:17 <xdotcomm_> is it because its a mined transaction or genises block?
1119 2014-03-16 12:02:21 <gmaxwell> No.
1120 2014-03-16 12:02:48 <xdotcomm_> its a fee transaction?
1121 2014-03-16 12:03:01 <gmaxwell> there is no such thing as a "fee transaction"
1122 2014-03-16 12:03:04 <gmaxwell> (and you can look at the spending side, 54fabd73f1d20c980a0686bf0035078e07f69c58437e4d586fb29aa0bee9814f  ... what is the 'from address' there?)
1123 2014-03-16 12:03:47 <gmaxwell> The bitcoin backend system really has no concept of address at all just script satisfaction. The scriptpubkey in that case is not representable as an address.
1124 2014-03-16 12:04:56 <xdotcomm_> "Unable to decode input address"
1125 2014-03-16 12:05:25 <gmaxwell> there isn't an 'input address' none is definable there.
1126 2014-03-16 12:05:45 <xdotcomm_> dis is great
1127 2014-03-16 12:05:56 <xdotcomm_> i can make anonymous bitcoin then?
1128 2014-03-16 12:06:03 <gmaxwell> as I said before, bc.i doesn't relfect how bitcoin works— it presents a highly cooked (and offten useful) view of it based on detailed blockchain analysis and it can sometimes be misleading.
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1130 2014-03-16 12:07:02 <gmaxwell> you can still follow the flow of coins (although it's perfectly possible to obscure that too), addresses don't really come into anonymity limitations.
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1132 2014-03-16 12:08:19 <xdotcommer> sorry internet issue
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1136 2014-03-16 12:11:11 <xdotcommer> gmaxwell: I am fine with uncertainty the same way I am fine with fluctuating bitcoin prices ... I would still like to access additional transaction details when possible
1137 2014-03-16 12:11:24 <tom78> hi anyone out there with the knowledge on identifying private key from hex cluster ?
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1139 2014-03-16 12:12:14 <tom78> hi anyone out there with the knowledge on identifying private key from hex cluster ?
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1143 2014-03-16 12:15:12 <tom78> hi anyone out there with the knowledge on identifying private key from hex cluster ?
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1145 2014-03-16 12:16:08 <gmaxwell> xdotcommer: then go fetch them, nothing has changed. The details you're looking for aren't actually in the transaction you're asking about, what bc.i is displaying is infered from inspecting the previous transactions whos outputs the transaction in question is spending.
1146 2014-03-16 12:16:23 <gmaxwell> tom78: I don't know what you're asking but this is probably the wrong channel.
1147 2014-03-16 12:17:18 <xdotcommer> gmaxwell: reason I am here is because there are public commits dealing with txindex / getrawtransaction and I wanted to understand how these work better
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1151 2014-03-16 12:19:38 <wumpus> tom78: there are some tools out there that can search disk images for private keys
1152 2014-03-16 12:21:03 <tom78> wumps: i accidentally overwritten the wallet.dat and then preserved the hard drive and exploring it from another computer using hex editor to recover my lost wallet along coins. I found my overwritten keys in one sector. but unable to take further steps due to lack of information in how the private keys stored exactly.
1153 2014-03-16 12:21:07 <xdotcommer> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3896/how-to-findout-the-sender-of-a-transaction
1154 2014-03-16 12:21:10 <gmaxwell> He clarified the question to me in PM (I dunno how you were able to figure that out when I wasn't). I pointed him to https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=25091.0
1155 2014-03-16 12:22:18 <wumpus> gmaxwell: it was difficult to parse but I made a guess, some old words from the times of norton disk editor and put one and one together  :)
1156 2014-03-16 12:22:58 <gmaxwell> xdotcommer: except you already know the answer to that URL at least— you cannot. You 'find out' the sender of the transaction by knowing who you gave the address to.  Nothing else measures the sender.  (indeed you can measure other things— like the previous to on the coins being spent, but these things are not always the sender)
1157 2014-03-16 12:23:53 <wumpus> it's so long that I heard the word 'cluster' in any other context than 'clusterfuck'
1158 2014-03-16 12:26:18 <gmaxwell> yea.. hah. whats next spinrite and
1159 2014-03-16 12:27:38 <tom78> I am actually talking about hex editor. I have loaded my entire hard drive and found the data i need in one sector (in hexadecimal format) i found my overwritten public key and a pool of private keys. (in hexadecimal format) now i need to know how I can turn them into QT format
1160 2014-03-16 12:27:45 <xdotcommer> gmaxwell: I am not trying to ascertain the real sender
1161 2014-03-16 12:28:10 <xdotcommer> gmaxwell: I am trying to record addresses that were used in sending
1162 2014-03-16 12:28:23 <tom78> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Private_key
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1164 2014-03-16 12:29:13 <xdotcommer> gmaxwell: to the best result possible ...similar to blockchain websites
1165 2014-03-16 12:30:44 <xdotcommer> problem with
1166 2014-03-16 12:30:46 <xdotcommer> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/2667/whats-the-best-way-for-a-website-to-detect-payments-from-green-addresses/5981#5981
1167 2014-03-16 12:31:01 <xdotcommer> is that the pseudocode is completly wrong
1168 2014-03-16 12:31:16 <xdotcommer> getrawtransaction does not accept txid
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1170 2014-03-16 12:31:33 <xdotcommer> sorry i mean decoderawtransaction does not accept txid
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1178 2014-03-16 12:39:17 <jouke> xdotcommer: use  "getrawtransaction txid" and use that output with decoderawtransaction. Or even quicker "getrawtransaction txid 1".
1179 2014-03-16 12:39:42 <gmaxwell> wumpus: if you go look at github issues that have had a lot of esp of the bikeshedy sort comments I think you'll find most are not wallet related— perhaps just because there has been not much wallet activity.  Not that I disagree with splitting it, as thats been a long term goal I think in everyone's mind.
1180 2014-03-16 12:39:55 <jouke> You need a node with a full index. Yet, green addresses are stupid and nobody uses it.
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1182 2014-03-16 12:41:21 <xdotcommer> jouke: warren buffet said bitcoin is a mirrage :)
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1185 2014-03-16 12:43:12 <jouke> addresses are a mirage
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1190 2014-03-16 12:44:22 <xdotcommer> gotta think bigger for usage
1191 2014-03-16 12:44:42 <xdotcommer> bitcoin is not a frige tech anylonger... its mainstream
1192 2014-03-16 12:44:48 <xdotcommer> fringe*
1193 2014-03-16 12:45:16 <xdotcommer> if only I can get a nice wallet on IOS
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1203 2014-03-16 13:05:23 <jouke> xdotcommer: I am thinking bigger, that is why we should move away from addresses. They are becomming obsolete anyway.
1204 2014-03-16 13:05:59 <xdotcommer> jouke: I am intrigued can you help me understand
1205 2014-03-16 13:06:28 <xdotcommer> is not it the whole point of public key cryptography
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1207 2014-03-16 13:08:27 <wumpus> gmaxwell: well most of the bikeshedding is wallet GUI related
1208 2014-03-16 13:08:51 <olalonde> Hola
1209 2014-03-16 13:10:32 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I really think seperating the wallet from the rest of the core project should be a priority, it would also allow for easier forking/experimentation of wallets
1210 2014-03-16 13:10:42 <jouke> xdotcommer: have I allready told you about bitcoin script?
1211 2014-03-16 13:10:53 <olalonde> wumpus: +1
1212 2014-03-16 13:10:57 <xdotcommer> jouke: yea i perused
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1214 2014-03-16 13:12:31 <xdotcommer> jouke: ur thinking to use raw public key?
1215 2014-03-16 13:12:34 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I agree with you that there is bikeshedding about core issues as well (like how many bytes of data to allow) but that kind of bikeshedding seems more relevant to me
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1217 2014-03-16 13:14:38 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I was thinking IsStandard rule stuff being a source of huge volumes of noise mostly.
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1219 2014-03-16 13:16:11 <wumpus> but we're stuck with that, it's part of the core functionality... it cannot be split off
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1223 2014-03-16 13:18:19 <jouke> xdotcommer: other ways to communicate scripts
1224 2014-03-16 13:18:25 <jouke> Things like payment protocol
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1227 2014-03-16 13:22:58 <wumpus> gmaxwell: maybe introduce an embedded LUA interpreter for isStandard decisions :p
1228 2014-03-16 13:23:19 * gmaxwell cues luke
1229 2014-03-16 13:23:24 <wumpus> and mining policy and such
1230 2014-03-16 13:23:35 <gmaxwell> (who was recently saying things like "what if we embedded python for setting policy")
1231 2014-03-16 13:23:42 <wumpus> ah yes it was his idea
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1233 2014-03-16 13:23:46 <wumpus> :D
1234 2014-03-16 13:25:01 <HM2> too slow
1235 2014-03-16 13:25:10 <HM2> you need to put a JIT in to the official client for Bitcoin script ;)
1236 2014-03-16 13:25:18 <HM2> it'll be fine
1237 2014-03-16 13:25:26 <wumpus> yes make it LLVM based
1238 2014-03-16 13:26:17 <buZz> nice :)
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1240 2014-03-16 13:27:58 <HM2> wumpus, should make it secure though. best embed QEMU
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1242 2014-03-16 13:28:18 <olalonde> lawl
1243 2014-03-16 13:28:41 <wumpus> it doesn't need to be secure, after all the operator would provide the code
1244 2014-03-16 13:28:50 <olalonde> isn't it what ethereum is looking to accomplish?
1245 2014-03-16 13:28:54 <gmaxwell> yea, lua would be fine and reasonable to embed.
1246 2014-03-16 13:29:49 <wumpus> yep, at least lua has a JIT and is much smaller than python
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1248 2014-03-16 13:30:32 <gmaxwell> though the performace of createnewblock is already pretty bad without having interperted code in the loop. :(
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1250 2014-03-16 13:30:40 <HM2> i love lua on principle but also hate it for having 1 indexed arrays
1251 2014-03-16 13:30:59 <HM2> which is hate on the intellectual level of pure racism
1252 2014-03-16 13:32:01 <wumpus> HM2: it takes bikeshedding to a whole new level
1253 2014-03-16 13:32:20 <wumpus> HM2: meta-bikeshedding
1254 2014-03-16 13:32:30 <HM2> I know
1255 2014-03-16 13:32:46 <gmaxwell> it could be intercal for all I care.
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1258 2014-03-16 13:32:57 <HM2> Also it kinda sucks that Lua 5.2 and LuaJIT are taking different roads
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1261 2014-03-16 13:36:23 <wumpus> HM2: always fun how you can do the same things in ever more different but pretty much equivalent ways, yay for progress :p
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1274 2014-03-16 13:53:37 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: a release version of BFGMiner, built by me.
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1278 2014-03-16 13:56:50 <gmaxwell> Great, electrum just posted a new release with "message encryption support" and the thing they linked to claimed to implement ECIES but doesn't, and instead implements something insecure.
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1288 2014-03-16 14:05:43 <HM2> wumpus, anything easy to do will be done and over again, anything difficult to do will be done once and people will complain about it forever
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1292 2014-03-16 14:13:51 <wumpus> HM2: yes, nice summary
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1297 2014-03-16 14:21:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: a new/very recent release?
1298 2014-03-16 14:24:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(In other words: a file that very few to no Chrome users would have already downloaded?)
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1331 2014-03-16 15:09:56 <AmThatsMe> Hi everyone ! I asked this question yesterday but i didn't fully got it yet. Why is RPC tests divided into python tests and cpp tests ?
1332 2014-03-16 15:11:18 <wumpus> AmThatsMe: cpp tests are low level (unit tests), python tests are intermediate to high level (functionality tests)
1333 2014-03-16 15:11:31 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1334 2014-03-16 15:12:36 <AmThatsMe> wumpus: can the two be integrated ? is there any restrictions with writing everything in one language ?
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1336 2014-03-16 15:12:56 <wumpus> AmThatsMe: I wouldn't worry about that
1337 2014-03-16 15:14:19 <wumpus> AmThatsMe: new tests are welcome in either python or c++, though if you need a test harness of some kind (for example to set up a blockchain and wallets) it makes no sense to do it in c++, and if you want to test a lot of isolated cases quickly it makes sense to use the internal c++ unit test framework
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1339 2014-03-16 15:15:10 <wumpus> the c++ tests are supposed to run quickly as they're run by the pulltester
1340 2014-03-16 15:15:37 <sipa> the python tests are also ran by pulltester, i hope?
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1342 2014-03-16 15:15:59 <wumpus> I don't think all the qa tests are run by the pulltester
1343 2014-03-16 15:16:09 <wumpus> not sure though
1344 2014-03-16 15:16:11 <sipa> really?
1345 2014-03-16 15:16:13 <wumpus> they take alot of time to run
1346 2014-03-16 15:16:43 <sipa> just the comparison tools already takes minutes
1347 2014-03-16 15:17:19 <sipa> but is run by pulltester
1348 2014-03-16 15:17:53 <wumpus> I don't mind, I'm fine with adding everything to the pulltester, I'm just saying what I think is currently the case
1349 2014-03-16 15:18:27 <sipa> sure
1350 2014-03-16 15:18:57 <sipa> i'm just saying it would surprise me to not run some tests because of slowness, as the slowest test of all is already included
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1353 2014-03-16 15:20:14 <AmThatsMe> wumpus:thanks!
1354 2014-03-16 15:20:24 <AmThatsMe> sipa:thanks also for your help yesterday !
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1364 2014-03-16 15:29:18 <hno> Anyone who knows some pool op contact of ghash.io? Our pools are fighting a bit too much on who has the current block.
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1367 2014-03-16 15:35:17 <sipa> ?
1368 2014-03-16 15:35:32 <sipa> AmThatsMe: yw
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1370 2014-03-16 15:41:51 <paveljanik> hno: a bit too much?
1371 2014-03-16 15:41:59 <paveljanik> can you be verbose?
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1374 2014-03-16 15:45:12 <kuzetsa> hno: the network will always accept the longest chain with the highest difficulty level as the final answer... not sure why you're saying there's a problem that can't fix itself. Could you be more specific on why this case is special?
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1402 2014-03-16 16:07:26 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: longest valid chain.
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1404 2014-03-16 16:08:15 <jgarzik> kuzetsa, the chain with the largest amount of total work
1405 2014-03-16 16:08:34 <jgarzik> "longest" does not mean number of blocks
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1407 2014-03-16 16:09:20 <hno> kuzetsa, I just want to try to get a closer connection to them so we both see our blocks sooner rather than later, so we avoid working on separate chains.
1408 2014-03-16 16:10:20 <sipa> hno: so what are you asking here?
1409 2014-03-16 16:10:33 <hno> If anyone knows who to contact.
1410 2014-03-16 16:10:48 <gmaxwell> it would make sense if they were here or if someone knew.  Luke-Jr may have a working contact.
1411 2014-03-16 16:11:48 <gmaxwell> given ghash's overall orphan rate being so high, I believe they have problems with their hardware or setup that better connectivity will likely not fix.
1412 2014-03-16 16:12:34 <hno> does not hurt trying.
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1426 2014-03-16 16:33:37 <Subo1977_> hi, is there a releasedate for bitcoin core 0.9)
1427 2014-03-16 16:37:56 <hno> Is there some command line client to explore the bitcoin p2p protocol? (not rpc)
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1433 2014-03-16 16:45:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Subo1977_: AFAIK Gavin hasn't announced any planned date
1434 2014-03-16 16:45:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You can use rc3 in the meantime, though.
1435 2014-03-16 16:45:49 <wumpus> as always: 'when it's ready'
1436 2014-03-16 16:46:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: btw, could you help me understand something?
1437 2014-03-16 16:46:25 <wumpus> if no serious issues are found with rc3 it could be really soon, but if bugs are found and need to be fixed it will take longer
1438 2014-03-16 16:46:51 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: maybe?
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1442 2014-03-16 16:48:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Gavin said that the change in the port binding fail message wasn't a shows topper bug so he wasn't willing to change it between rc2 and rc3
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1444 2014-03-16 16:48:59 <wumpus> yeah, it's quite low prio
1445 2014-03-16 16:49:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But unless I misread the comparison or github messed up, the change was actually made between rc2 and rc3
1446 2014-03-16 16:49:34 <wumpus> yes it was a mistake
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1448 2014-03-16 16:50:44 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: no
1449 2014-03-16 16:50:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm?
1450 2014-03-16 16:51:27 <wumpus> I backported the original message change to 0.9.0 with the idea that it's better to keep the messages the same for translation purposes, but on such short notice no one will re-translate it anyway
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1452 2014-03-16 16:52:09 <wumpus> it would have been better not to, then again, it's a very rare message so it's not a big deal
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1514 2014-03-16 17:39:44 <melik> good morning guys; had a quick question before i parse through a few blocks
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1516 2014-03-16 17:40:11 <melik> is the first tx in the in the block always the one with the coinbase?
1517 2014-03-16 17:40:17 <sipa> yes
1518 2014-03-16 17:41:13 <melik> sipa, is this just how bitcoind returns them? or the miner's software always includes the coinbase as the first tx (meaning it might not be the case in some cases)
1519 2014-03-16 17:41:42 <sipa> a block is invalid if the first transaction is not a coinbase transaction, or if any other thna the first is
1520 2014-03-16 17:41:46 <sipa> by hard network rules
1521 2014-03-16 17:42:05 <melik> that is fantastic news.
1522 2014-03-16 17:42:17 <sipa> i am glad to make your day
1523 2014-03-16 17:42:19 <melik> thank you sipa!
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1539 2014-03-16 17:56:20 <LarsLarsen1> imbue: look up gitian
1540 2014-03-16 17:56:44 <LarsLarsen1> sorry,  nvm  wrong window focus
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1545 2014-03-16 18:01:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|LarsLarsen1: which window was that intended for?
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1599 2014-03-16 19:10:56 <chichov> does anyone has svg's of OP_CHECKSIG?
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1626 2014-03-16 19:59:19 <cfields> gavinandresen: ping
1627 2014-03-16 19:59:34 <cfields> gavinandresen: i just discovered something really strange about our osx build
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1640 2014-03-16 20:12:27 <copumpkin> cfields: what's that?
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1648 2014-03-16 20:17:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|chichov: could you elaborate?
1649 2014-03-16 20:17:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|cfields: strange how? o_O
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1651 2014-03-16 20:17:59 <Apocalyptic> backdoored ?
1652 2014-03-16 20:18:05 <cfields> ...
1653 2014-03-16 20:18:35 <cfields> seems qt plugins might not have been loading in past builds
1654 2014-03-16 20:18:59 <cfields> i'm trying to narrow down how it might've been working, hoping gavinandresen can shed some light
1655 2014-03-16 20:19:24 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wonders what that means :-P
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1657 2014-03-16 20:20:34 <airbreather> ... protip: don't try saving each block and each transaction to a separate file on disk, at least on Windows.  cleaning up after about 160k or so blocks, even just doing "del *" from a command prompt takes forever.
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1659 2014-03-16 20:20:44 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: not much, really. It caused broken builds in the qt 5.2 build i'm working on. just trying to figure out how it would've worked previously
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1670 2014-03-16 20:25:30 <airbreather> about a million files to delete still >.<
1671 2014-03-16 20:27:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|cfields: heh, those "wait, how can it possibly be working?!?" things are annoying
1672 2014-03-16 20:28:13 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: yea, it's exactly one of those
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1674 2014-03-16 20:28:37 <cfields> to make it even more fun, i just tested a 5.0 build i had laying around, and it also worked when it shouldn't
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1676 2014-03-16 20:28:49 <cfields> new hypothesis is that something changed on qt's side in 5.1/5.2
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1681 2014-03-16 20:35:36 <ThomasZ> cfields: plugins? As in, $QT_PLUGIN_PATH ?
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1683 2014-03-16 20:38:38 <cfields> yea
1684 2014-03-16 20:38:46 <cfields> on osx, we ship a qt.conf
1685 2014-03-16 20:39:04 <cfields> on my 5.2 build, the keys in that qt.conf are case-sensitive
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1697 2014-03-16 20:49:04 <cfields> mm, i'm going to guess this introduced a case-sensitive compare somewhere: https://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qtbase/commit/486bde8372b30a2133e911268147704c699f8284
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1708 2014-03-16 21:02:34 <ThomasZ> cfields: I don't see anything like that in the commit you found.
1709 2014-03-16 21:03:46 <ThomasZ> cfields: its also a really old commit
1710 2014-03-16 21:03:49 <cfields> ThomasZ: me either, that's just the only thing i found that looked like it could touch that behavior
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1713 2014-03-16 21:05:11 <cfields> i give up anyway. We're using the wrong case, and switching to the correct case fixes the problem in newer versions. I don't see how it could hurt.
1714 2014-03-16 21:05:45 <ThomasZ> it would be best to use the proper case, if nothing else it makes it more portable to case-sensitive filesystems.
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1778 2014-03-16 21:46:17 <chichov> what does precisely FindAndDelete in Script do?
1779 2014-03-16 21:46:30 <chichov> *precisely do
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1781 2014-03-16 21:48:09 <Luke-Jr> chichov: what it says?
1782 2014-03-16 21:48:37 Ogig has joined
1783 2014-03-16 21:50:21 <chichov> Luke-Jr: not very useful. I'm having troubles understanding the code. That's why I'm asking
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1800 2014-03-16 22:04:10 <sipa> chichov: search a subscript and replace it with nothing
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1869 2014-03-16 22:49:15 <lechuga_> are opt-in versioned script extensions a terrifyingly bad idea?
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1888 2014-03-16 22:58:05 <sipa> define opt-in?
1889 2014-03-16 22:58:13 <sipa> the sensder chooses?
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1911 2014-03-16 23:12:04 <Cylta> Is there any php version of a wallet? serverside, php wallet?..
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1914 2014-03-16 23:16:27 <CodeShark> is there a reason for restricting the maximum n for m-of-n multisig transactions to 3 in bitcoind? is there a plan to raise this number soon?
1915 2014-03-16 23:17:22 <shesek> CodeShark, its not really limited with p2sh
1916 2014-03-16 23:17:31 <CodeShark> oh, I absolutely understand that
1917 2014-03-16 23:17:39 <CodeShark> I understand it's a specific hardcoded constraint in script.cpp
1918 2014-03-16 23:17:46 <Luke-Jr> Cylta: yes, it was recently leaked from MtGox
1919 2014-03-16 23:17:54 <shesek> multisig outputs are limited to 3 pubkeys, but that check isn't being performed for p2sh outputs that specify the multisig script in the spending input
1920 2014-03-16 23:17:59 <Luke-Jr> I don't recommend trying to use it though
1921 2014-03-16 23:18:30 <Cylta> Luke-Jr: mtgox did use php wallet?.. hmm. and why don't you recommend to use it?
1922 2014-03-16 23:18:54 <Luke-Jr> it isn't legally licensed for anyone to use, and has known exploits
1923 2014-03-16 23:18:58 <CodeShark> I'm specifically asking about the limitation that prevents you from redeeming an output sent to an m-of-n multisig where n > 3
1924 2014-03-16 23:19:08 <Cylta> Luke-Jr: okay, thank you
1925 2014-03-16 23:19:21 <CodeShark> or at least prevents you from propagating the transaction redeeming it
1926 2014-03-16 23:19:27 <Cylta> Luke-Jr: any ideas why so big company used so strange way? (php wallet should be so much slower)
1927 2014-03-16 23:19:32 <shesek> CodeShark, again - when you're using multisig with p2sh address, there's no n<=3 limit
1928 2014-03-16 23:19:41 <shesek> probably a mistake by whoever implemented it
1929 2014-03-16 23:20:37 <shesek> the only limitation is the size of the script you can push in the spending input, which limits it to ~8-10 compressed pubkeys IIRC
1930 2014-03-16 23:20:39 b4epoche has joined
1931 2014-03-16 23:20:54 <CodeShark> shesek, I'm specifically talkign about https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp#L1425
1932 2014-03-16 23:21:13 <CodeShark> n > 3 treats the transaction as nonstandard
1933 2014-03-16 23:21:16 <CodeShark> therefore, it won't get relayed
1934 2014-03-16 23:24:12 <shesek> CodeShark, right. that check only applies to transaction outputs
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1936 2014-03-16 23:24:40 <shesek> when using p2sh, its "OP_HASH160 ... OP_EQUAL", which is valid
1937 2014-03-16 23:25:18 <shesek> the actual multisig script is provided in the input of the spending transaction, where that check isn't being performed
1938 2014-03-16 23:25:33 <CodeShark> oh, hmm
1939 2014-03-16 23:25:37 <Luke-Jr> Cylta: dunno
1940 2014-03-16 23:25:38 <shesek> I think it was petertodd who noticed that
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1946 2014-03-16 23:29:58 <shesek> CodeShark, but... regarding what you originally asked - there is currently a limit of 3 pubkeys (that isn't properly implemented), which I believe is going to be raised in the future
1947 2014-03-16 23:30:15 <shesek> probably when people start showing concrete use cases
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1952 2014-03-16 23:33:25 <sipa> shesek: up to 15 pubkeys even
1953 2014-03-16 23:33:46 <CodeShark> oh, hmm - yeah
1954 2014-03-16 23:34:21 <sipa> shesek: no need to raise it, p2sh already provides a way to bypass that limit
1955 2014-03-16 23:34:30 <sipa> whicvh also
1956 2014-03-16 23:34:39 <sipa> lacks the effect on thenutxo set
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1958 2014-03-16 23:36:00 <shesek> sipa, well, it still makes sense to formalize it at some point
1959 2014-03-16 23:36:16 <sipa> agree
1960 2014-03-16 23:36:24 <shesek> also, I guess that using multisig outputs makes is better for some cases... though I can't really think of any
1961 2014-03-16 23:36:33 <shesek> s/makes//
1962 2014-03-16 23:36:34 <sipa> i know of none
1963 2014-03-16 23:37:39 <shesek> perhaps if you want to show publicly which public keys are in that multisig, without having to give information (the script that hashes to the p2sh) off-chain
1964 2014-03-16 23:38:08 <shesek> though... I can't really see why giving this information somewhere else could be less desirable
1965 2014-03-16 23:38:21 <sipa> ;;later tell BlueMatt it seems pulltester hasn't run in almost a week
1966 2014-03-16 23:38:22 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1967 2014-03-16 23:38:48 <sipa> ;;later tell gavinandresen it seems pulltester hasn't run in almost a week
1968 2014-03-16 23:38:48 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1969 2014-03-16 23:39:57 <lechuga_> sipa: sender chooses to use a new script format and maybe miners will honor it
1970 2014-03-16 23:40:18 <lechuga_> opt-in for the miner
1971 2014-03-16 23:40:38 <lechuga_> then it gets weird though because you;d have to allow for block inclusion without complete verification
1972 2014-03-16 23:40:39 <shesek> lechuga_, it'll cause forks
1973 2014-03-16 23:40:57 <shesek> and won't make economical sense unless the miners accepting it control the majority of the network
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1975 2014-03-16 23:41:41 <shesek> hmm, yes, unless you allow block inclusion without complete verification... which isn't really an option :-\
1976 2014-03-16 23:42:06 <sipa> lechuga_: that's a hard fork
1977 2014-03-16 23:42:21 <sipa> lechuga_: every full node will need to know about the rule before you can start using it
1978 2014-03-16 23:42:44 <lechuga_> but they wouldnt necessarily have to honor the scripts
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1980 2014-03-16 23:42:52 <sipa> ??
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1983 2014-03-16 23:43:05 <sipa> you'll fork if nodes disagree about validity of a script
1984 2014-03-16 23:44:01 <lechuga_> im wonderign if it could be possible to include txns without compeltely verifiable scripts
1985 2014-03-16 23:44:17 <sipa> no
1986 2014-03-16 23:44:31 <sipa> as every old node will consider it invalid
1987 2014-03-16 23:44:38 <sipa> so you'll hard fork
1988 2014-03-16 23:45:07 <lechuga_> stupid old nodes
1989 2014-03-16 23:45:38 <sipa> stupid old nodes are what prevents the network from being hijacked
1990 2014-03-16 23:45:59 <sipa> if anyone could change the rules without their consent, why are they there in the first place?
1991 2014-03-16 23:46:22 <sipa> the reason you run a stupid old node is exactly because you want the network to obey the rules implemented in them
1992 2014-03-16 23:47:15 <lechuga_> people are proposing altcoins to allow for richer scripts
1993 2014-03-16 23:47:40 <sipa> if you want those, convince people they are useful
1994 2014-03-16 23:47:49 <sipa> or add them in a non-forking way
1995 2014-03-16 23:47:51 <lechuga_> it would be interesting if it could be possible for bitcoin and not require total consensus
1996 2014-03-16 23:48:00 <lechuga_> but that could easily be impossible
1997 2014-03-16 23:48:04 <lechuga_> i havent fully considered it
1998 2014-03-16 23:48:18 <sipa> if bitcoin didn't require total consensus, i'd immediately leave
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2000 2014-03-16 23:48:24 <lechuga_> heh
2001 2014-03-16 23:48:25 <sipa> there would be absolutely no point
2002 2014-03-16 23:48:33 <sipa> consensus is bitcoin's strength
2003 2014-03-16 23:48:56 <sipa> i don't understand what you think you'd gain
2004 2014-03-16 23:49:16 <sipa> extra features, but giving up the ability to verify that nobody is cheating?
2005 2014-03-16 23:49:24 <sipa> we have banks for that
2006 2014-03-16 23:49:28 <lechuga_> haha
2007 2014-03-16 23:49:34 <sipa> i am very serious
2008 2014-03-16 23:49:37 <lechuga_> i know
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2013 2014-03-16 23:56:47 <CheckDavid> How do you propose I test the validity of the following Bitcoin address generating python script? https://gist.github.com/CheckDavid/1e4a1724792c1449a6c9/b6edb5a284d9b7e64d5c37ba1a7b3ae4c05e37ae
2014 2014-03-16 23:57:09 <lechuga_> maybe its something like merged mining where miners can optionally mine blocks for altchains with different rules
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2016 2014-03-16 23:57:19 <lechuga_> but communicate over the same network
2017 2014-03-16 23:57:33 <lechuga_> and you can somehow address the altchains from the real chain
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2019 2014-03-16 23:57:59 <lechuga_> s/real/main
2020 2014-03-16 23:58:28 <lechuga_> and nodes can opt-in to altchains
2021 2014-03-16 23:59:48 <lechuga_> anyway i'll think about it more offline