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   5 2014-03-17 00:03:15 <lechuga_> CheckDavid: you could use bitcoind
   6 2014-03-17 00:05:17 <lechuga_> importprivkey / getaddressesbyaccount
   7 2014-03-17 00:06:46 <CheckDavid> Oh...
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  10 2014-03-17 00:07:15 <CheckDavid> You mean I test a key in my script and in another generator?
  11 2014-03-17 00:07:47 <CheckDavid> And see if they match ?
  12 2014-03-17 00:08:06 <lechuga_> i mean try to get bitcoind to import a privkey you create
  13 2014-03-17 00:08:16 <CheckDavid> Oh
  14 2014-03-17 00:08:18 <lechuga_> and then see if it does and if it will spit out the same address you calculate
  15 2014-03-17 00:08:29 <CheckDavid> Is there bitcoinf for android?
  16 2014-03-17 00:08:41 <CheckDavid> *bitcoind
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  18 2014-03-17 00:08:54 <sipa> why do you need a android version to test?
  19 2014-03-17 00:09:16 <CheckDavid> sipa: cuz I'm poor and thats all I have
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  22 2014-03-17 00:09:50 <sipa> you're developing python scripts on android?
  23 2014-03-17 00:09:57 <CheckDavid> Yes
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  25 2014-03-17 00:10:25 <sipa> ok
  26 2014-03-17 00:10:36 <CheckDavid>  I am not competing with Microsoft :)
  27 2014-03-17 00:10:45 <CheckDavid> Just doing some basic scripting
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  29 2014-03-17 00:11:46 <CheckDavid> Look what I found
  30 2014-03-17 00:11:49 <CheckDavid> http://gobittest.appspot.com/Address
  31 2014-03-17 00:12:05 <CheckDavid> I guess I could cross test using this
  32 2014-03-17 00:12:15 <Imbue> CheckDavid: that's the link i tried to show you the other day via wiki
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  35 2014-03-17 00:12:37 <Imbue> it is a useful tool but bear in mind addresses are submitted to server so it is not good to use for mission critical
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  37 2014-03-17 00:12:53 <sipa> it doesn't support compressed pubkeys
  38 2014-03-17 00:13:48 <CheckDavid> Imbue: you tried but didn't @
  39 2014-03-17 00:14:36 <Imbue> it is on the 'technical background of ver 1 addresses' page
  40 2014-03-17 00:14:38 <Imbue> hehe
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  42 2014-03-17 00:15:09 <CheckDavid> Imbue: yes
  43 2014-03-17 00:15:16 <lechuga_> you can run bitcoind on a raspberry pi
  44 2014-03-17 00:15:21 <lechuga_> those are what
  45 2014-03-17 00:15:22 <lechuga_> $40?
  46 2014-03-17 00:15:32 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  47 2014-03-17 00:15:34 <lechuga_> you dont need to sync the blockchain
  48 2014-03-17 00:15:51 <Imbue> well if you want it just for testing it feels like there should be sort of emulator you can use
  49 2014-03-17 00:16:01 <CheckDavid> Yeah. Just want to year address generation
  50 2014-03-17 00:16:08 <Imbue> providing you don't care about speed and your android machine is less than 3 years old or whatever
  51 2014-03-17 00:16:13 <CheckDavid> *test
  52 2014-03-17 00:16:38 <CheckDavid> Imbue: my android is a beast
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  56 2014-03-17 00:19:24 <CheckDavid> In which format is the private key in that website?
  57 2014-03-17 00:19:28 <CheckDavid> Hex?
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  66 2014-03-17 00:21:25 <CheckDavid> Well. Apparently it works :D
  67 2014-03-17 00:21:38 <TheCleanGame> hehehe
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  70 2014-03-17 00:22:23 <CheckDavid> If anyone would like to peer review be my guest :p
  71 2014-03-17 00:22:37 <CheckDavid> And thanks to dims for compiling it
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  95 2014-03-17 00:31:56 <CheckDavid> Why were WIFs created? Compactness?
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 101 2014-03-17 00:34:20 <dims> CheckDavid, nice!
 102 2014-03-17 00:34:33 <CheckDavid> :D
 103 2014-03-17 00:34:46 <mbelshe> does anyone have any good stats on average time of a transaction from insertion into the p2p network to first confirmation?  obviously it will depend on the transaction; but it seems like this could be a great area of research?
 104 2014-03-17 00:34:48 <dims> you can cross verify against http://brainwallet.org/
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 107 2014-03-17 00:37:09 <Cylta> mbelshe: greatly depends on size of transaction and fee
 108 2014-03-17 00:37:21 <ne0futur> mbelshe: 10-20 mins for the first conf most of the time
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 110 2014-03-17 00:37:35 <ne0futur> not always
 111 2014-03-17 00:37:58 <mbelshe> yeah, i know the basic theory.  i was wondering if anyone had done any research of actual times and analyzed it.
 112 2014-03-17 00:39:29 <Cylta> is electrum safe?
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 114 2014-03-17 00:40:29 <CheckDavid> Ths
 115 2014-03-17 00:40:38 <CheckDavid> Thanks dims
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 118 2014-03-17 00:41:56 <Imbue> Cylta: it leaks a bit of information about addresses under your control, that's all i can think of right now
 119 2014-03-17 00:42:27 <Imbue> as far as i am aware anyway. i don't think it uses a bloom filter or anything similar when synchronizing
 120 2014-03-17 00:43:33 <Cylta> Imbue: okay, I will keep that in mind. Does not sounds critical. Is it open source\checked? (I mean, what is they have a backdoor?.. who is author?)
 121 2014-03-17 00:44:03 <Imbue> i think it's 100% python so you can check if you wish
 122 2014-03-17 00:44:16 TheCleanGame has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 123 2014-03-17 00:44:29 <Imbue> as to 'is it audited', no idea
 124 2014-03-17 00:45:28 <Cylta> Imbue: is there any other lightweight client, better than electrum?
 125 2014-03-17 00:45:57 btcbtc has joined
 126 2014-03-17 00:46:08 <mbelshe> (selfishly, bitgo.com!
 127 2014-03-17 00:46:11 <Imbue> only one i've tried is android wallet
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 129 2014-03-17 00:46:35 <Imbue> i prefer it because it's p2p spv instead of 'proprietary'
 130 2014-03-17 00:46:53 <Imbue> but electrum is (designed to be) more secure unless android wallet has improved somewhat since my last use
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 142 2014-03-17 00:54:25 <BlueMatt> sipa: oooo fun
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 145 2014-03-17 00:55:38 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: it does that sometimes when its replaying chain or something
 146 2014-03-17 00:55:39 <Cylta> mbelshe does it have api?
 147 2014-03-17 00:55:43 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: but that should be incredibly rare
 148 2014-03-17 00:55:49 <BlueMatt> sipa: I blame gavinandresen
 149 2014-03-17 00:55:59 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: usually fixes pull-tester these days :(
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 151 2014-03-17 00:56:52 <mbelshe> @cylta, yes, but i'm changing it.... if you're looking for an api right now, i don't quite have it yet.  2 weeks
 152 2014-03-17 00:57:30 <mbelshe> anyone have tips for a transaction that seems like it should be going through, but is sitting unconfirmed for hours?  (not a fee issue, not small issue, etc)
 153 2014-03-17 00:57:47 <mbelshe> here it is:  https://blockchain.info/tx/ea95e2b5d90c41ef83ab2695964b1767526d0311b4760fa1a0b51e3bb7c2d84f
 154 2014-03-17 00:58:12 <Cylta> mbelshe: fee issue
 155 2014-03-17 00:58:51 <mbelshe> really?  it has a fee on it of 0.0001?
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 157 2014-03-17 00:59:13 <Cylta> mbelshe: not sure about current normal fee, but recently it was 0.0005 btc per kb. you have 0.0001 for 0.8 kb
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 160 2014-03-17 01:00:04 <mbelshe> hrm; i thought it was 0.0001 per kb.  that would explain it if i have that wrong.
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 164 2014-03-17 01:02:12 <mbelshe> latest source shows nMinTxFee at 10000
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 166 2014-03-17 01:03:20 <Imbue> it is .0001 per kb for relaying
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 168 2014-03-17 01:03:31 <emowataji> mbelshe: I had a 0.0001 fee transaction that took almost 48 hours to confirm recently
 169 2014-03-17 01:03:36 <Imbue> miners inclusion policy may differ
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 171 2014-03-17 01:06:12 <lechuga_> that txn isnt standard is it
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 173 2014-03-17 01:06:21 <lechuga_> OP_HASH160 3dc660ed8e4053b3404389e92cc6723f993b1a05 OP_EQUAL
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 175 2014-03-17 01:07:28 <mbelshe> it is standard.  blockchain.info is confused about how to parse a P2SH signature block
 176 2014-03-17 01:07:38 <lechuga_> ic
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 178 2014-03-17 01:07:57 <mbelshe> i guess it could just be miners are expecting greater than 0.0001.  But as I read the code, the fee is correct.
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 183 2014-03-17 01:12:47 <Imbue> annoying that blockchain don't have a raw tx function
 184 2014-03-17 01:12:57 <Imbue> not in my mempool so i can't decode it
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 186 2014-03-17 01:14:11 <Imbue> bc.i that is. i need to be strict on my mental replacement here. damn domain squatters.
 187 2014-03-17 01:14:51 <lechuga_> fee seems correct to me
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 190 2014-03-17 01:19:08 <lechuga_> mbelshe: have you tried sending it directly ot a miner?
 191 2014-03-17 01:19:25 <mbelshe> yes
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 193 2014-03-17 01:19:57 <mbelshe> @imbue - i can send it to you
 194 2014-03-17 01:20:09 <Luke-Jr> Imbue: they do
 195 2014-03-17 01:20:13 <lianj> mbelshe: do you have the hex? seems like no node except bc.i has seen it
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 197 2014-03-17 01:20:54 <Imbue> Luke-Jr: how is it accessed? could be that I am missing it with js disabled
 198 2014-03-17 01:21:00 smash has joined
 199 2014-03-17 01:21:10 <Luke-Jr> https://blockchain.info/tx/ea95e2b5d90c41ef83ab2695964b1767526d0311b4760fa1a0b51e3bb7c2d84f?format=hex
 200 2014-03-17 01:21:22 <lianj> ah nie
 201 2014-03-17 01:21:24 <Imbue> magic
 202 2014-03-17 01:21:24 <mbelshe> good ptr, thx lukejr
 203 2014-03-17 01:21:25 <lianj> *c
 204 2014-03-17 01:21:37 <Imbue> thanks
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 207 2014-03-17 01:22:32 <lechuga_> oh thats cool
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 217 2014-03-17 01:31:07 <mbelshe> @imbue - did you see anything fishy in there?
 218 2014-03-17 01:31:32 <Imbue> mbelshe: i am no expert; just wanted to have a look
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 220 2014-03-17 01:31:47 <Cylta> how much ram does the bitcoind or electrum need?
 221 2014-03-17 01:32:05 <Imbue> bitcoind seems happy with it but then given that you relayed it fine, that makes sense
 222 2014-03-17 01:32:14 <lechuga_> are the inputs both 2-of-3 p2sh multisig?
 223 2014-03-17 01:32:20 <mbelshe> yes
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 240 2014-03-17 01:46:22 <lechuga_> my bitcoind rejects it
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 242 2014-03-17 01:46:45 <lechuga_> it looks eligius does too
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 253 2014-03-17 02:01:02 <lechuga_> nm it accepted it now
 254 2014-03-17 02:02:03 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: how's libblkmaker coming? :P
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 256 2014-03-17 02:03:47 <mbelshe> lechuga_: thx for checking.
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 261 2014-03-17 02:07:39 <lechuga_> weird i sne ti tonce with no error then i get an error about it being nonstd
 262 2014-03-17 02:07:43 <lechuga_> sent it*
 263 2014-03-17 02:07:57 <lechuga_> Luke-Jr: this week was pretty crazy due to job interview
 264 2014-03-17 02:08:04 <lechuga_> should have plenty of time this week
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 266 2014-03-17 02:08:28 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: I thought you already have a job with <…>
 267 2014-03-17 02:09:37 <lechuga_> sort of
 268 2014-03-17 02:09:42 <lechuga_> ;)
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 270 2014-03-17 02:10:50 * sipa is curious now
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 281 2014-03-17 02:18:33 <super3> hello all
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 302 2014-03-17 02:35:03 <mbelshe> well that tx finally went through
 303 2014-03-17 02:35:23 <lechuga_> yeah i didnt get a chance to figure out why my node was rejecting it
 304 2014-03-17 02:35:30 <lechuga_> prior to it getting into a block
 305 2014-03-17 02:35:38 <mbelshe> i think i'm doing something incorrectly.  but i can't figure out what it is.
 306 2014-03-17 02:35:50 <mbelshe> i debugged with bitcoind; its definitely go enough fee and its definitely standard.
 307 2014-03-17 02:36:06 <mbelshe> i think the TX rejected was just because it was already in the mempool
 308 2014-03-17 02:36:13 <mbelshe> but it still took forever.
 309 2014-03-17 02:37:07 <lechuga_> i had debugging printfs in there which seemed to indicate it was nonstd
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 311 2014-03-17 02:37:18 <dhill> lechuga_: i pasted you
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 316 2014-03-17 02:38:11 <lechuga_> ah i wasnt sure what that meant
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 318 2014-03-17 02:39:52 <lechuga_> i really need a tool that dumps serialized scripts to human readable ascii
 319 2014-03-17 02:39:58 <lechuga_> surely such a thing exists
 320 2014-03-17 02:40:04 yubrew has joined
 321 2014-03-17 02:40:38 <lianj> http://webbtc.com/tx/ea95e2b5d90c41ef83ab2695964b1767526d0311b4760fa1a0b51e3bb7c2d84f 'run script'
 322 2014-03-17 02:40:38 Krellan_ has joined
 323 2014-03-17 02:40:44 <lianj> looks normal
 324 2014-03-17 02:41:00 <dhill> 22:01:51 2014-03-16 [DBG] RPCS: Rejected transaction ea95e2b5d90c41ef83ab2695964b1767526d0311b4760fa1a0b51e3bb7c2d84f: transaction
 325 2014-03-17 02:41:00 <dhill>           ea95e2b5d90c41ef83ab2695964b1767526d0311b4760fa1a0b51e3bb7c2d84f has a non-standard input: transaction input #0 expects 3 inputs, but referenced
 326 2014-03-17 02:41:00 <dhill>           output script only provides 4
 327 2014-03-17 02:41:03 <dhill> is what i got
 328 2014-03-17 02:41:28 KawalGrover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 329 2014-03-17 02:42:45 <lechuga_> oh cool @ webbtc
 330 2014-03-17 02:42:50 <mbelshe> thanks dhill - looking at that
 331 2014-03-17 02:42:55 <lechuga_> thats exactly what ive been looking for
 332 2014-03-17 02:43:34 <lechuga_> i think i saw that erferenced in your ruby library but ignored it :)
 333 2014-03-17 02:43:37 <lechuga_> referenced
 334 2014-03-17 02:44:08 <mbelshe> webbtc.com is awesome!
 335 2014-03-17 02:44:26 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 336 2014-03-17 02:44:33 <lechuga_> would it differentiate pushdata from pushdata2?
 337 2014-03-17 02:45:32 <lianj> in the debug output, no. but if its a handcrafted use of OP_PUSHDATAs you would see it
 338 2014-03-17 02:47:11 <lianj> script wise i think the tx is just fine
 339 2014-03-17 02:47:32 adam3us has joined
 340 2014-03-17 02:47:45 <mbelshe> dhill: what program gave you that output?
 341 2014-03-17 02:47:52 non2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 342 2014-03-17 02:48:00 <dhill> btcd
 343 2014-03-17 02:48:16 <lechuga_> handcrafted meaning non-canonical?
 344 2014-03-17 02:48:21 Gyps has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 345 2014-03-17 02:48:45 Gyps has joined
 346 2014-03-17 02:49:12 <lianj> meaning for example pushdata2 where the data fits in pushdata
 347 2014-03-17 02:49:17 <lechuga_> right
 348 2014-03-17 02:49:19 <lechuga_> k
 349 2014-03-17 02:50:31 <mbelshe> dhill:  any chance that is an old version of bitcoind?
 350 2014-03-17 02:51:09 <mbelshe> dhill:  or i that actually the btcd (written in go)?
 351 2014-03-17 02:51:23 <mbelshe> err - /i/is
 352 2014-03-17 02:51:33 <dhill> go
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 354 2014-03-17 02:51:57 olalonde has joined
 355 2014-03-17 02:53:01 <mbelshe> ok.  I'll look into it.  The error seems like it might be a btcd-ism.  The text reads funny:  "expects 3 inputs, but referenced output only provides 4".
 356 2014-03-17 02:53:15 <mbelshe> maybe the "only" should be removed.
 357 2014-03-17 02:53:19 <mbelshe> i'll check the source
 358 2014-03-17 02:54:11 smash has joined
 359 2014-03-17 02:54:12 <mbelshe> heh.  ok:  		// The script pair is non-standard if the number of available 		// inputs does not match the number of expected inputs. 		if scriptInfo.NumInputs != scriptInfo.ExpectedInputs { 			str := fmt.Sprintf("transaction input #%d expects %d "+ 				"inputs, but referenced output script only "+ 				"provides %d", i, scriptInfo.ExpectedInputs, 				scriptInfo.NumInputs) 			return TxRuleError(str) 		}
 360 2014-03-17 02:54:32 <dhill> yea, only should be removed
 361 2014-03-17 02:54:55 <dhill> reads funny
 362 2014-03-17 02:55:15 smash_ has joined
 363 2014-03-17 02:56:01 <mbelshe> does btcd support p2sh?
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 369 2014-03-17 02:59:09 <dhill> btcd does
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 373 2014-03-17 03:02:48 Lexa has joined
 374 2014-03-17 03:04:29 <CodeShark> is OP_PUSHDATA2 big or small endian?
 375 2014-03-17 03:04:44 <mbelshe> well, there is a bug in bitcoind; you're supposed to push an OP_0 in your CHECKMULTISIG scripts; it appears that btcd doesn't like this.
 376 2014-03-17 03:05:12 <lechuga_> btcd needs the same bug :)
 377 2014-03-17 03:05:15 <CodeShark> looking in script.h, I see insert(end(), (unsigned char*)&nSize, (unsigned char*)&nSize + sizeof(nSize));
 378 2014-03-17 03:05:19 <mbelshe> i believe littleendian
 379 2014-03-17 03:05:32 <CodeShark> doesn't the serialization of nSize here depend on the platform endianness?
 380 2014-03-17 03:05:58 hmmma has joined
 381 2014-03-17 03:06:44 <CodeShark> shouldn't we be doing explicit bitshifts and masks?
 382 2014-03-17 03:07:58 ziggamon has joined
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 384 2014-03-17 03:08:33 <CodeShark> nSize is an unsigned short (which presumably is a 16 bit integer on our target platforms, even though C++ doesn't dictate a standard)
 385 2014-03-17 03:08:45 <mbelshe> codeshark:  it reads that way to me too.
 386 2014-03-17 03:08:52 <CodeShark> seems like we should be using a uint16_t
 387 2014-03-17 03:08:59 <CodeShark> and doing explicit bitshifts
 388 2014-03-17 03:09:05 <CodeShark> to make sure we're portable
 389 2014-03-17 03:09:13 zcopley has joined
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 391 2014-03-17 03:10:29 <mbelshe> i think i read somewhere that bitcoind only works on little endian machines.
 392 2014-03-17 03:10:37 <mbelshe> (not that this is a good thing)
 393 2014-03-17 03:10:42 firelegend has left ()
 394 2014-03-17 03:10:53 <CodeShark> I'
 395 2014-03-17 03:11:04 <mbelshe> maybe satoshi worked for intel.
 396 2014-03-17 03:11:06 <CodeShark> I've only built it for Intel architectures
 397 2014-03-17 03:11:23 <CodeShark> but it seems like it would cost us very little to make the code not care about architecture endianness
 398 2014-03-17 03:11:26 <davec> in regards to the OP_0 on multisig, btcd does pop that extra argument
 399 2014-03-17 03:11:38 <lechuga_> the orig impl was windows-only i believe
 400 2014-03-17 03:12:12 <CodeShark> it's silly to use architecture-specific code unless we're talking about to-the-metal optimizations which would have different architecture-specific implementaitons
 401 2014-03-17 03:12:14 Lexa has quit (Quit: Quit)
 402 2014-03-17 03:12:21 antephialtic has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 403 2014-03-17 03:12:29 <CodeShark> and this is not one of those instances :)
 404 2014-03-17 03:12:51 <CodeShark> script serialization is hardly a runtime bottleneck in bitcoind :)
 405 2014-03-17 03:12:58 ziggamon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 406 2014-03-17 03:13:24 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
 407 2014-03-17 03:13:28 <sipa> CodeShark: yeah, bitcoind should absolutely move to neutral-endianness
 408 2014-03-17 03:13:48 <sipa> CodeShark: the problem is that testing that requires access to different platforms
 409 2014-03-17 03:13:56 <sipa> and someone who cares
 410 2014-03-17 03:14:23 <lechuga_> what popular architectures are big endian anymore
 411 2014-03-17 03:14:50 <sipa> none
 412 2014-03-17 03:15:06 <CodeShark> what about type widths?
 413 2014-03-17 03:15:06 <copumpkin> ARM has the option of being both, but is typically LE
 414 2014-03-17 03:15:08 <mbelshe> davec:  i'm trying to figure out why btcd didn't like ea95e2b5d90c41ef83ab2695964b1767526d0311b4760fa1a0b51e3bb7c2d84f...
 415 2014-03-17 03:15:14 <CodeShark> there's also the issue of an unsigned short being 16 bits
 416 2014-03-17 03:15:30 <copumpkin> powerpc is big endian though
 417 2014-03-17 03:15:34 <copumpkin> and it's not impossible to find
 418 2014-03-17 03:16:03 <CodeShark> I mean, we might as well hardcode 2 instead of sizeof(nSize) :)
 419 2014-03-17 03:16:10 Guest76153 is now known as roidster
 420 2014-03-17 03:16:23 <sipa> CodeShark: don't know any popular architecture that doesn't have short=2 int=4
 421 2014-03-17 03:16:40 <sipa> anyway, not disagreeing with you at all
 422 2014-03-17 03:16:49 <davec> mbelshe: have you updated to the latest version?  I ask because that was in block 290938, and I'm currently at 290943
 423 2014-03-17 03:16:52 <sipa> just saying that trying to fix it isn't all that trivial
 424 2014-03-17 03:17:45 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 425 2014-03-17 03:18:04 <mbelshe> davec: oh - yes - i'm aware it finally got picked up.  dhill found that it was getting rejected in btcd with this error:
 426 2014-03-17 03:18:16 <mbelshe> 22:01:51 2014-03-16 [DBG] RPCS: Rejected transaction ea95e2b5d90c41ef83ab2695964b1767526d0311b4760fa1a0b51e3bb7c2d84f: transaction
 427 2014-03-17 03:18:30 <mbelshe>           ea95e2b5d90c41ef83ab2695964b1767526d0311b4760fa1a0b51e3bb7c2d84f has a non-standard input: transaction input #0 expects 3 inputs, but referenced
 428 2014-03-17 03:18:33 benrcole has joined
 429 2014-03-17 03:18:37 <mbelshe>           output script only provides 4
 430 2014-03-17 03:18:55 <mbelshe> i was speculating (from casually looking at the btcd source) - that the OP_0 is tripping it up
 431 2014-03-17 03:19:07 <dhill> bitcoind 0.8.5 rejected it as well i believe
 432 2014-03-17 03:19:20 <mbelshe> i was looking here:  https://github.com/conformal/btcd/blob/master/mempool.go
 433 2014-03-17 03:19:21 <sipa> seems it is taken into account for validity, but not for standardness
 434 2014-03-17 03:19:25 <sipa> dhill: really?
 435 2014-03-17 03:19:36 askmike has joined
 436 2014-03-17 03:19:45 <davec> I'll take a look, but there is a difference between non-standard and invalid
 437 2014-03-17 03:19:46 <dhill> yea, TX Rejected i think
 438 2014-03-17 03:19:50 <dhill> let me take a second look
 439 2014-03-17 03:19:51 Subo1977 has joined
 440 2014-03-17 03:20:01 <dhill> hoopefully debug.log as it still
 441 2014-03-17 03:20:02 <davec> miners can and do accept non-standard txns if the fee is high enough
 442 2014-03-17 03:20:04 <sipa> dhill: most likely because it's already in the mempool
 443 2014-03-17 03:20:04 <davec> that is what happened here
 444 2014-03-17 03:20:32 <sipa> oh
 445 2014-03-17 03:20:38 <sipa> ignore me
 446 2014-03-17 03:20:54 <mbelshe> so i don't think this is a non-standard tx tho.
 447 2014-03-17 03:21:09 neuroMode has joined
 448 2014-03-17 03:21:50 da2ce7_laptop has joined
 449 2014-03-17 03:21:56 <davec> I'll dig into it, but I'm basing this on the fact that error message is specifically in regards to non-standard, then it was mined into a block and passed the consensus checks with no issues (i.e valid, but non-standard).
 450 2014-03-17 03:22:08 <davec> will report back in a few after I disasm the p2sh
 451 2014-03-17 03:23:09 <mbelshe> here is a pretty good view:  http://webbtc.com/script/ea95e2b5d90c41ef83ab2695964b1767526d0311b4760fa1a0b51e3bb7c2d84f:0
 452 2014-03-17 03:23:21 <mbelshe> thanks for looking at it, davec
 453 2014-03-17 03:23:28 Subo1977_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 457 2014-03-17 03:25:45 <sipa> looks standard 2-of-3 p2sh to me
 458 2014-03-17 03:26:07 <davec> agreed
 459 2014-03-17 03:29:41 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
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 464 2014-03-17 03:34:22 <lechuga_> 0x48 immediately follows OP_0
 465 2014-03-17 03:35:04 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 466 2014-03-17 03:35:13 <lechuga_> oh nm
 467 2014-03-17 03:36:58 <lechuga_> is that normal that its not using pushdata1
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 470 2014-03-17 03:38:59 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 471 2014-03-17 03:39:10 <lechuga_> yes it is :)_
 472 2014-03-17 03:39:10 <lechuga_> 
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 475 2014-03-17 03:41:05 <davec> found it - thanks for the heads up
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 484 2014-03-17 03:43:55 <CodeShark> ah, the limitation in number of pubkeys in a multisig is actually in main.cpp, not script.cpp
 485 2014-03-17 03:44:12 <CodeShark> if (txin.scriptSig.size() > 500) { reason = "scriptsig-size"; return false; }
 486 2014-03-17 03:44:16 EagleTM has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 487 2014-03-17 03:44:41 <CodeShark> the comment above it is incorrect, though
 488 2014-03-17 03:44:55 <CodeShark> it assumes ~65 byte pubkeys when most of us are using 33 byte pubkeys
 489 2014-03-17 03:45:01 <CodeShark> so 3-of-5 transactions still work fine
 490 2014-03-17 03:45:34 <mbelshe> codeshark:  there is a patch pending - i think from peter todd that would greatly increase that limit too
 491 2014-03-17 03:45:40 <mbelshe> i don't know the status of the patch tho
 492 2014-03-17 03:45:43 paracyst has joined
 493 2014-03-17 03:45:44 cysm has joined
 494 2014-03-17 03:45:46 <davec> to 15-of-15 iirc
 495 2014-03-17 03:45:48 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: no, that's just IsStandard
 496 2014-03-17 03:46:03 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 497 2014-03-17 03:46:18 <CodeShark> IsStandardTx in main.cpp
 498 2014-03-17 03:46:29 <Luke-Jr> right, that's not a protocol rule
 499 2014-03-17 03:46:33 <Luke-Jr> static const unsigned int MAX_SCRIPT_ELEMENT_SIZE = 520; // bytes
 500 2014-03-17 03:46:36 <Luke-Jr> ^ real limit
 501 2014-03-17 03:46:38 <Luke-Jr> src/script.h
 502 2014-03-17 03:46:48 <CodeShark> right, it's not a protocol rule
 503 2014-03-17 03:46:58 <CodeShark> but this still means bitcoind won't relay it :p
 504 2014-03-17 03:47:16 * Luke-Jr shrugs
 505 2014-03-17 03:47:56 <CodeShark> ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : nonstandard transaction: scriptsig-size
 506 2014-03-17 03:48:02 <mbelshe> luke-jr: do you have advice for folks that want to more than 500b multisigs?  i've been like codeshark - just assuming that if not standard, it isn't going to fly.  i know eligius will take it still, but it seems like a problem?  it sounds like you see it differently?
 507 2014-03-17 03:48:53 <Luke-Jr> mbelshe: I don't see it as a problem.
 508 2014-03-17 03:49:05 <Luke-Jr> 520 bytes is the hard limit anyway
 509 2014-03-17 03:49:09 <Luke-Jr> so 500 isn't that constraining
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 511 2014-03-17 03:49:15 <CodeShark> 520 for a script element!
 512 2014-03-17 03:49:17 <CodeShark> not for the entire script
 513 2014-03-17 03:49:27 <CodeShark> hmm
 514 2014-03-17 03:49:29 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: the entire script, in P2SH
 515 2014-03-17 03:49:33 <CodeShark> yeah, hmmm
 516 2014-03-17 03:49:39 <CodeShark> well, this is a problem, then
 517 2014-03-17 03:49:43 <CodeShark> because people want more than 3-of-4
 518 2014-03-17 03:49:45 <CodeShark> because people want more than 3-of-3
 519 2014-03-17 03:49:47 <CodeShark> or whateer
 520 2014-03-17 03:49:48 <gmaxwell> 500b is a whole lot of keys in any case, the signatures a pretty large at that point.
 521 2014-03-17 03:49:56 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: 500 is M-of-15
 522 2014-03-17 03:50:00 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: dude you can have like of-15 in 520 bytes.
 523 2014-03-17 03:50:21 <CodeShark> ok, right - the problem here is that the 500 includes the signatures
 524 2014-03-17 03:50:26 <CodeShark> it's not just the p2sh redeemscript
 525 2014-03-17 03:50:41 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
 526 2014-03-17 03:50:41 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: if you're concerned about IsStandard, it will reject N over 3 anyway
 527 2014-03-17 03:50:46 <CodeShark> no it won't
 528 2014-03-17 03:50:52 <CodeShark> doesn't check input scripts
 529 2014-03-17 03:50:56 <Luke-Jr> …
 530 2014-03-17 03:50:59 <CodeShark> I've done 3-of-5 with no problem
 531 2014-03-17 03:51:22 antephialtic has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 532 2014-03-17 03:52:10 <gmaxwell> In any case, petertodd's pull expands all the IsStandard stuff.
 533 2014-03-17 03:52:48 <CodeShark> how soon before petertodd's pull gets into release?
 534 2014-03-17 03:53:01 <sipa> that's not relevant
 535 2014-03-17 03:53:13 <sipa> you can do 19-of-15 p2sh right now i think
 536 2014-03-17 03:53:19 <sipa> *10-of-15
 537 2014-03-17 03:53:32 <CodeShark> as long as enough nodes on the network will relay it it isn't a problem
 538 2014-03-17 03:53:39 <sipa> all will
 539 2014-03-17 03:53:52 KawalGrover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 540 2014-03-17 03:54:09 xdotcommer has quit ()
 541 2014-03-17 03:54:09 <Luke-Jr> not the spend
 542 2014-03-17 03:55:30 <CodeShark> let's say ~71 bytes per signature * 5 signatures, that means 355 bytes just for the signatures. then 33 per pubkey * 8 pubkeys is another 264 bytes
 543 2014-03-17 03:55:41 <CodeShark> so a 5-of-8 exceeds this 500 byte limit
 544 2014-03-17 03:56:07 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: that's on spend, not receive
 545 2014-03-17 03:56:19 <CodeShark> that's all I care about
 546 2014-03-17 03:56:32 <CodeShark> of course on receive the sender doesn't even care what's in the redeemscript
 547 2014-03-17 03:56:40 <CodeShark> it's just a 20 byte hash
 548 2014-03-17 03:56:51 <mbelshe> codeshark:  your math matches mine
 549 2014-03-17 03:57:44 <CodeShark> if we were talking about a limit on script elements, 500 wouldn't be a problem since we only need a few more bytes than 355 for the redeemscript
 550 2014-03-17 03:57:51 <CodeShark> but this is a limit on the entire input script
 551 2014-03-17 03:57:55 <CodeShark> including signatures
 552 2014-03-17 03:57:56 nullp has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
 553 2014-03-17 04:01:09 Soligor has quit (Quit: Soligor)
 554 2014-03-17 04:01:12 <uiop> does sizeof m-of-n script grow exponentially or is there a single opcode that (with params (m,n)) that encodes it? (/me doesn't recall)
 555 2014-03-17 04:01:26 benrcole has joined
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 557 2014-03-17 04:02:32 <CodeShark> it grows linearly
 558 2014-03-17 04:03:32 <CodeShark> O(71*m + 33*n)
 559 2014-03-17 04:04:02 <gmaxwell> you're not counting the pushes.
 560 2014-03-17 04:04:17 <CodeShark> well, big O here
 561 2014-03-17 04:04:56 <gmaxwell> I mean the numbers are just actually more like 75, 34. Thats all.
 562 2014-03-17 04:04:59 <CodeShark> right
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 574 2014-03-17 04:11:53 <uiop> ah, nice
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 585 2014-03-17 04:23:17 <uiop> oh, right. i was picturing powerset-ish thing, but it's not
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 587 2014-03-17 04:26:05 <sipa> uiop: it's avoided by requiring the signatures to be in the same order as the public keys
 588 2014-03-17 04:26:21 <sipa> so you don't need to check all orderings/subsets
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 596 2014-03-17 04:33:36 <justanotheruser> sipa: thats still O(mn) right?
 597 2014-03-17 04:33:44 <sipa> no
 598 2014-03-17 04:33:48 <sipa> O(m+n)
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 600 2014-03-17 04:34:47 <justanotheruser> I see. Not sure what I was thinking (well I was thinking check every combo)
 601 2014-03-17 04:35:11 <CodeShark> and since m <= n, we can just write O(2n)
 602 2014-03-17 04:35:19 <CodeShark> or O(n) :)
 603 2014-03-17 04:36:23 <CodeShark> even if it allowed for arbitrary signature permutations, that would only be time O(n^2)
 604 2014-03-17 04:37:34 <CodeShark> in the worst case it would have to try each pair of (signature, pubkey)
 605 2014-03-17 04:38:03 <gmaxwell> which would be pretty awful, fortunately we don't do that.
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 609 2014-03-17 04:38:37 <gmaxwell> a single of-15 would basically blow the ecdsa budget for a block. :P
 610 2014-03-17 04:39:02 cpacia has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 611 2014-03-17 04:39:33 <CodeShark> I've been giving my parser even more help by keeping a zero-length placeholder for each missing signature
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 614 2014-03-17 04:40:04 <CodeShark> at least in edit mode
 615 2014-03-17 04:40:14 <CodeShark> the zero-length placeholders are stripped off for broadcast
 616 2014-03-17 04:41:05 greenspa has joined
 617 2014-03-17 04:41:51 <CodeShark> then we know exactly which pubkeys to test
 618 2014-03-17 04:42:24 <justanotheruser> What is the most expensive op_code?
 619 2014-03-17 04:42:28 <justanotheruser> opcode
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 621 2014-03-17 04:45:09 <gmaxwell> op_checksig with high N.
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 626 2014-03-17 04:48:04 <sipa> op_checkmultisigverify
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 638 2014-03-17 05:01:37 <gmaxwell> er thats what I meant by OP_CHECKSIG. :P
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 653 2014-03-17 05:21:23 <fnesse> longshot here: but has anyone had any success with cpp_int bignum types? specifically uint1024_t?
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 706 2014-03-17 06:31:28 <coinnabis> the db dumps are pretty clear
 707 2014-03-17 06:32:29 <coinnabis> the number of btc Luke-Jr bought on mtgox, minus the number of btc sold, is 2,819... over the account lifetime... ignoring whatever profit he took from trading, that's a balance of at least $1.8 mil USD in bitcoins
 708 2014-03-17 06:32:43 <coinnabis> which is great. bravo...
 709 2014-03-17 06:32:56 <Luke-Jr> coinnabis: are you *trying* to get banned?
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 712 2014-03-17 06:35:12 <coinnabis> Luke-Jr: you've done great things for bitcoin. it's ok that people know you've earned millions from your involvement with it. why you're playing the part of a pauper who's just happy to be a bitcoin supporter is beyond me. the info is all out there. no need to be coy
 713 2014-03-17 06:36:08 <justanotheruser> coinnabis: Are you with the media or something, why do you care so much about money?
 714 2014-03-17 06:36:32 <Ademan> username sounds more like a silkroad reject
 715 2014-03-17 06:37:37 <venzen> coming here and baiting a developer... some agenda for sure... snake
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 717 2014-03-17 06:44:28 <koriander22> hi devs...
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 720 2014-03-17 06:45:15 <koriander22> can anyone tell me how the system handles a fork in the blockchain
 721 2014-03-17 06:45:34 <Luke-Jr> koriander22: elaborate?
 722 2014-03-17 06:48:55 <koriander22> elaborate! or elaborate?
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 725 2014-03-17 06:50:38 <koriander22> well, 2 blocks are found the same time, so we got a fork. How fast will the system rekognize the fork ?
 726 2014-03-17 06:51:09 <Luke-Jr> next blcok
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 729 2014-03-17 06:53:12 <koriander22> what happens with the transactions on the invalid branch? Are they all invalid then?
 730 2014-03-17 06:53:28 <justanotheruser> koriander22: they are re-added to the mempool
 731 2014-03-17 06:54:08 <koriander22> so they will be addet to the next valid block ?
 732 2014-03-17 06:54:23 <Ademan> they will be available to be added to a future block
 733 2014-03-17 06:54:55 <koriander22> k, thx
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 735 2014-03-17 06:56:07 <koriander22> did we ever seen a fork in the btc system ?
 736 2014-03-17 06:56:27 <Ademan> yep
 737 2014-03-17 06:56:48 <Luke-Jr> koriander22: it's a regular occurance
 738 2014-03-17 06:57:07 <jcorgan> maybe every 2-3 days it seems
 739 2014-03-17 06:57:12 <Ademan> Luke-Jr: longer than a block or two?
 740 2014-03-17 06:57:18 <Luke-Jr> Ademan: not usually
 741 2014-03-17 06:58:00 <jcorgan> https://blockchain.info/charts/n-orphaned-blocks
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 743 2014-03-17 06:58:27 <koriander22> nice tool...
 744 2014-03-17 06:58:29 <jcorgan> wait, that's number of orphans, not fork length
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 746 2014-03-17 07:00:18 <koriander22> Luke-Jr: What was the max lenght of a fork?
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 748 2014-03-17 07:00:27 <Luke-Jr> koriander22: 80 or 90 blocks I think
 749 2014-03-17 07:00:28 <ququ> hi
 750 2014-03-17 07:01:07 <ququ> how to use lockunspent unlock?
 751 2014-03-17 07:01:14 <jcorgan> Luke-Jr: o.O?  I thought the length 26 fork last year was the largest
 752 2014-03-17 07:01:19 <ququ> when I use it ,I get a error
 753 2014-03-17 07:01:22 <koriander22> Luke-Jr: Wow, this are a lot of invalid transactions
 754 2014-03-17 07:02:21 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: that wasn't even a real fork
 755 2014-03-17 07:02:26 <justanotheruser> jcorgan: were there any real tx in that?
 756 2014-03-17 07:02:33 <Luke-Jr> koriander22: block forks != invalid transactions
 757 2014-03-17 07:02:59 <Luke-Jr> looks like only 53 blocks actually
 758 2014-03-17 07:03:06 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/CVEs#CVE-2010-5139
 759 2014-03-17 07:03:29 <jcorgan> oh, that one, before my time
 760 2014-03-17 07:03:45 <koriander22> Luke-Jr: i know, but as statet befor, all thos transactions has to go back in mempool and append to the next valid block right ?
 761 2014-03-17 07:03:53 <Luke-Jr> right
 762 2014-03-17 07:04:20 <ququ> hi luke ,can you tell me how to use lockunspent unlock? please?
 763 2014-03-17 07:04:22 <jcorgan> koriander22: they go back into the mempool, but whether they go into the *next* block is entirely up to miners
 764 2014-03-17 07:06:40 <koriander22> Luke-Jr: So i wonder, how can get an invalid branch that lenght? I thought broadcast's take a few seconds to make a new block public and find a new block takes nearly always a few mins
 765 2014-03-17 07:06:41 <Luke-Jr> it's random
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 768 2014-03-17 07:08:31 <koriander22> thx for helping me and answer my questions...
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 777 2014-03-17 07:17:53 <Ademan> dang, 53 blocks
 778 2014-03-17 07:18:29 <justanotheruser> Ademan: The only people that lost money from it were miners. I believe they either had a bug, or didn't upgrade
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 780 2014-03-17 07:19:39 <Ademan> wow, patched the code to kill a block, that truly was a different era
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 797 2014-03-17 07:52:41 <ququ> -.-
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 904 2014-03-17 08:45:14 <chichov> Can anyone help with two inconsistencies I've found?
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 906 2014-03-17 08:46:08 <Luke-Jr> chichov: ?
 907 2014-03-17 08:46:22 <chichov> 1) In OP_CHECKSIG (see https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/7/70/Bitcoin_OpCheckSig_InDetail.png) it states that the script is copied from the last OP_CODESEP, whereas it depicts that it's from the second last OP_CODESEP
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 909 2014-03-17 08:47:51 <chichov> 2) In the sighash unit tests (sighash_test.cpp) the OP_CODESEP's are (if I understand it correctly) simply removed from the referenced public key script, which is different again from what stands in the wiki.
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 914 2014-03-17 08:49:38 <chichov> can anyone resolve this problem?
 915 2014-03-17 08:49:52 <Luke-Jr> feel free to
 916 2014-03-17 08:50:03 <Luke-Jr> as a rule, the code is correct
 917 2014-03-17 08:50:52 <Luke-Jr> (if you find the code has definitely changed behaviour since 0.8.1, privately contact the security mailing list with detailed explanation)
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 962 2014-03-17 09:19:50 <chichov> Luke-Jr: if I'd have the time I'd have done it myself
 963 2014-03-17 09:20:02 <chichov> however, since I don't I'm asking around here.
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 975 2014-03-17 09:33:49 <vondra> ;; prevdiff
 976 2014-03-17 09:33:51 <gribble> 3815723798.81
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 991 2014-03-17 09:48:17 <airbreather> sheesh... almost time to shut off my BFL 5GH/s unit for inefficiency >.<
 992 2014-03-17 09:48:21 askmike has joined
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 994 2014-03-17 09:54:03 <venzen> it's hot season (mid summer) so hot and dry most days - only thundershowers now and again... today is very dry... the other season is wet seaton - 6 months of monsoon rains
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 996 2014-03-17 09:55:14 <venzen> today is about 35 or 40 - i' not sure... maybe it's 30 and my measure of hot is out :)
 997 2014-03-17 09:55:24 <venzen> sorry wrong window
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1258 2014-03-17 14:28:20 <disident> hello, someone know how to fix glibbest build on maverick ? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3228
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1278 2014-03-17 14:39:10 <venzen> hehe :) man's work!
1279 2014-03-17 14:41:13 <venzen> disident: you mean Ubuntu 10.10?
1280 2014-03-17 14:41:16 antephialtic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1281 2014-03-17 14:41:29 <disident> venzen: Mac OS X 10.9
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1285 2014-03-17 14:44:59 <venzen> disident: ok, sorry can't help
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1308 2014-03-17 15:13:25 <heipa> hey
1309 2014-03-17 15:13:57 <heipa> is there some easy way to convert 52 chars long priv key into its 51 char equivalent?
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1311 2014-03-17 15:14:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|heipa: Could you elaborate and/or provide an example?
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1314 2014-03-17 15:16:11 <heipa> when I issue dumpprivkey it gives 52 lenght private key aka private key of compressed address, in brief I want to see how those online wallet sites work and derive 130 hex public key
1315 2014-03-17 15:16:18 <heipa> via 51 chars private key :)
1316 2014-03-17 15:17:36 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1317 2014-03-17 15:17:42 <heipa> to get private key associated with uncompressed public key via compressed wallet address private key
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1322 2014-03-17 15:18:51 <kjj> first, you need to understand different key formats
1323 2014-03-17 15:19:27 jeewee has joined
1324 2014-03-17 15:20:07 <kjj> the private key is just 256 bits, but it can be encoded in different ways, and it can carry different metadata
1325 2014-03-17 15:21:00 <sipa> from bitcoin's perspective tge comptessed and uncompressed one are completely separate
1326 2014-03-17 15:21:03 p11 has joined
1327 2014-03-17 15:21:19 <kjj> dumpprivkey exports the key in WIF format, which is base58 encoded, and carrying metadata about the pubkey that *should* be generated to match it
1328 2014-03-17 15:21:23 <sipa> as thry have different private keys, different public keys, different addresses
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1331 2014-03-17 15:22:51 aceat64_ is now known as aceat64
1332 2014-03-17 15:23:12 <kjj> as Sipa is saying, bitcoin considers the private key itself, along with the metadata, to be an atomic whole
1333 2014-03-17 15:23:34 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1334 2014-03-17 15:23:42 <heipa> sipa so say I have an address in the wallet, I have WIF compressed key, is there so way to derive an uncompressed WIF private key?
1335 2014-03-17 15:24:27 <sipa> yes, but it is pointless
1336 2014-03-17 15:24:35 <kjj> just unpack the WIF, remove the compression flag, then repack.  but this is almost certainly not a useful operation and does something you probably don't intend to do
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1340 2014-03-17 15:25:29 <heipa> well I was curious how to derive 130 chars hex public address from wallet address
1341 2014-03-17 15:25:30 <kjj> the only time it would be useful is if you had engraved the private key in stone or something and wanted to generate a second address using it.
1342 2014-03-17 15:25:37 <heipa> and how keys are working with each other
1343 2014-03-17 15:25:43 <heipa> lol
1344 2014-03-17 15:25:49 p11 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1345 2014-03-17 15:25:56 <heipa> lolol
1346 2014-03-17 15:26:22 cajg has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1347 2014-03-17 15:26:47 <kjj> to derive the pubkey, you just unpack the WIF, multiply G by the private key, and then encode the pubkey into whatever format you need it in (paying attention to metadata from the WIF as you do)
1348 2014-03-17 15:27:10 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
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1350 2014-03-17 15:28:21 <kjj> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=129652.5
1351 2014-03-17 15:28:52 <kjj> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=205490.0
1352 2014-03-17 15:28:56 <sipa> heipa: private key -> public key -> address
1353 2014-03-17 15:29:04 <sipa> both steps are irreversible
1354 2014-03-17 15:29:17 <sipa> you cannot compute the pubkey from an address
1355 2014-03-17 15:29:50 <sipa> and if the address is for a compressed key, its pubkey is 66 characters hex, not 130
1356 2014-03-17 15:30:22 <heipa> yes
1357 2014-03-17 15:30:27 <heipa> as per https://www.bitaddress.org/bitaddress.org-v2.8.1-SHA1-a6e63f2712851710255a27fa0f22ef7833c2cd07.html
1358 2014-03-17 15:30:39 <sipa> (33 bytes instead of 65)
1359 2014-03-17 15:31:17 cbeams has left ()
1360 2014-03-17 15:31:31 <heipa> sipa so how to unpack compressed keys at all?
1361 2014-03-17 15:31:46 <sipa> you don't
1362 2014-03-17 15:31:57 <sipa> they are just smaller keys
1363 2014-03-17 15:32:12 <heipa> yes I realise that
1364 2014-03-17 15:32:33 <sipa> from a crypto point of view, they are a more efficient encoding for the samwe mathemathical point
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1366 2014-03-17 15:32:44 <heipa> yes save chain space
1367 2014-03-17 15:32:53 <sipa> but unless you are writing crypto code (don't!)
1368 2014-03-17 15:33:01 <sipa> you don't care about thast
1369 2014-03-17 15:33:21 <sipa> from bitcoin's persepctive these are just 33 byte pubkeys instead of 65 byte ones
1370 2014-03-17 15:33:29 <heipa> its nice to know how things work
1371 2014-03-17 15:34:05 <heipa> as it allows fuller understanding of entire code :)
1372 2014-03-17 15:34:22 <kjj> actually, it really doesn't
1373 2014-03-17 15:34:33 <heipa> how come?
1374 2014-03-17 15:34:35 <thermoman> is this wanted?
1375 2014-03-17 15:34:38 <thermoman> bitcoin-0.9.0rc3-linux.tar.gz contains bitcoin-0.9.0rc3-linux/src/bitcoin-0.9.0.tar.gz
1376 2014-03-17 15:34:39 <kjj> bitcoin treats most of this stuff as black box operations done by openssl
1377 2014-03-17 15:34:41 <thermoman> unpacking bitcoin-0.9.0.tar.gz each and every file is timestamped Jun 1 2013
1378 2014-03-17 15:34:54 <sipa> bitcoin never 'unpacks' them
1379 2014-03-17 15:35:28 <kjj> behind the scenes, we understand how openssl is treating them, but as far as bitcoin is concerned, they are just different strings of data
1380 2014-03-17 15:35:50 <heipa> I see so its kinda like http://kjur.github.io/jsrsasign/sample-ecdsa.html ? :D
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1386 2014-03-17 15:39:04 <thermoman> configure: error: Could not link against boost_thread !
1387 2014-03-17 15:39:09 <thermoman> what's the problem here?
1388 2014-03-17 15:39:23 <thermoman> ii  libboost-thread1.42-dev             1.42.0-4                     portable C++ multi-threading
1389 2014-03-17 15:39:27 <thermoman> ii  libboost-thread1.42.0               1.42.0-4                     portable C++ multi-threading
1390 2014-03-17 15:39:52 <heipa> which OS?
1391 2014-03-17 15:39:57 <thermoman> # Debian Squeeze
1392 2014-03-17 15:40:08 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1393 2014-03-17 15:40:10 <heipa> maybe install 1.55?
1394 2014-03-17 15:40:17 cajg has joined
1395 2014-03-17 15:40:23 <heipa> well check makefile also
1396 2014-03-17 15:40:38 <heipa> which file could not link?
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1398 2014-03-17 15:41:36 <thermoman> conftest.cpp:32:28: error: boost/chrono.hpp: No such file or directory
1399 2014-03-17 15:41:44 <heipa> sipa ok bitcoin got some code to work with opensll with it
1400 2014-03-17 15:42:00 <thermoman> configure:10946: checking whether the Boost::Chrono library is available
1401 2014-03-17 15:42:01 <thermoman> configure:10970: g++ -c -g -O2 -Wall -Wextra -Wformat -Wformat-security -Wno-unused-parameter  -Wstack-protector -fstack-protector-all -fPIE  -DBOOST_SPIRIT_THREADSAFE -DHAVE_BUILD_INFO -D__STDC_FORMAT_MACROS  -U_FORTIFY_SOURCE -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -pthread -I/usr/include conftest.cpp >&5
1402 2014-03-17 15:43:30 <heipa> sudo apt-get install build-essential libssl-dev libdb-dev libdb++-dev libboost-all-dev git have u done that? :D
1403 2014-03-17 15:43:53 uiop has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1404 2014-03-17 15:43:56 <heipa> well apart git which is probably already installed
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1407 2014-03-17 15:44:33 <thermoman> i don't have all libboost dev packages installed
1408 2014-03-17 15:44:39 <thermoman> seems i missed one
1409 2014-03-17 15:44:40 <heipa> so install
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1411 2014-03-17 15:44:48 <heipa> :)
1412 2014-03-17 15:45:13 <heipa> sipa so how those online bitcoin address sites can display all wallets format? :)
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1414 2014-03-17 15:46:33 <kjj> remember the chain he mentioned?  if you start on the left side of it, it is easy to move right.  if you start on the right, it is impossible to move left
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1416 2014-03-17 15:47:12 <heipa> oki got it
1417 2014-03-17 15:47:24 <heipa> have to  make private key -> then public key ->  then address
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1419 2014-03-17 15:47:49 <heipa> from secret to open to compact open a bit like genesis :D
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1424 2014-03-17 15:48:49 <kjj> right.  if you give an address, it *might* be able to find a pubkey in the blockchain, if that address has already been used to sign a transaction.  otherwise, it can't do anything with the address other than reformat it into hex or swahili or something
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1429 2014-03-17 15:51:51 <heipa> kjj give address means like grep kinda? some way u speficify address as a string and search chain? :)
1430 2014-03-17 15:52:00 <dhill> anyone have 2304c60c0d9f4da31af9804e85c3e1520ddcf4d2496269b6ed72d33b18b17e03 in their mempool?
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1433 2014-03-17 15:53:21 <kjj> dhill: no (three nodes, remote networks)
1434 2014-03-17 15:53:46 <Apocalyptic> dhill, confirmed no
1435 2014-03-17 15:53:55 <dhill> danke
1436 2014-03-17 15:54:03 Zarutian has joined
1437 2014-03-17 15:54:04 <kjj> heipa: they would need to have a database backing the site.  searching the blockchain in raw form would be slow
1438 2014-03-17 15:55:00 <heipa> yes like mariadb can be fast
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1440 2014-03-17 15:56:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|dhill: I also do not have it
1441 2014-03-17 15:56:43 <heipa> what will happen if someone send some other coins that use same encoding to bitcoin address already cointaining some bitcoins? like kinda spam? :)
1442 2014-03-17 15:57:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|heipa: I'm not sure I understand the question
1443 2014-03-17 15:57:14 <heipa> well since its private key it could in theory manage many things
1444 2014-03-17 15:57:14 <kjj> free money
1445 2014-03-17 15:57:19 p11 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1446 2014-03-17 15:57:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Bitcoin software is unaware of other coins
1447 2014-03-17 15:57:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|and vice versa
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1454 2014-03-17 16:03:32 <helo> it's aware in other ways :D
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1456 2014-03-17 16:04:02 <heipa> helo? lol
1457 2014-03-17 16:04:30 * helo returns from whence he came
1458 2014-03-17 16:04:41 phantomspark has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1459 2014-03-17 16:04:42 <heipa> means here u are now
1460 2014-03-17 16:04:51 <heipa> :P
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1464 2014-03-17 16:09:47 <heipa> Unless you are computing EC multiply, SHA-256 and RIPEMD-160 with pen and paper, you are going to need tools either way. lol
1465 2014-03-17 16:09:55 <heipa> kjj just read u comments
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1473 2014-03-17 16:13:45 <ConvivialMatt> any explanation on these 30% fee transactions happening?
1474 2014-03-17 16:13:47 <ConvivialMatt> https://blockchain.info/address/1JSJUGcaQX8ZLV8K6zk6cXykhNdivqn2p8
1475 2014-03-17 16:14:20 <disident> Someone know how to build bitcoin-qt on Mac OS Maverick ? can't fix that : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3228
1476 2014-03-17 16:14:23 <disident> thanks
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1478 2014-03-17 16:17:47 WormDrink has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1479 2014-03-17 16:18:38 <hearn> ConvivialMatt: probably legit. that's a huge tx
1480 2014-03-17 16:18:42 <hearn> 53kb
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1485 2014-03-17 16:23:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|disident: IIRC gavinandresen and cfields are our resident Mac users
1486 2014-03-17 16:23:25 ge0x has joined
1487 2014-03-17 16:23:29 <disident> michagogo|cloud: thanks
1488 2014-03-17 16:23:33 <hearn> disident: i had that problem too. try uninstalling and reinstalling the dependencies
1489 2014-03-17 16:23:38 <hearn> i use brew and it worked for me
1490 2014-03-17 16:23:39 <thermoman> does bitcoind compile and run fine with libdb5.1?
1491 2014-03-17 16:23:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|thermoman: yep
1492 2014-03-17 16:23:50 <thermoman> justupgrading from debian squeeze zu wheezy
1493 2014-03-17 16:23:57 <disident> hearn: ok going to try that
1494 2014-03-17 16:23:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|thermoman: But one important thing to note
1495 2014-03-17 16:24:02 p11 has joined
1496 2014-03-17 16:24:05 <gavinandresen> disident: rebuilding homebrew boost worked for me with OSX 10.8 and XCode 5.1
1497 2014-03-17 16:24:09 jn has joined
1498 2014-03-17 16:24:14 <thermoman> michagogo|cloud: yes?
1499 2014-03-17 16:24:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BDB 5.1 is not backwards-compatible with 4.8
1500 2014-03-17 16:24:26 <disident> brew reinstall boost +universal ?
1501 2014-03-17 16:24:41 <thermoman> michagogo|cloud: so i can't downgrade afterwards?
1502 2014-03-17 16:24:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So any wallet that is created or even opened by BDB 5.1 won't work with BDB 4.8
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1504 2014-03-17 16:24:50 <thermoman> michagogo|cloud: ok, i see
1505 2014-03-17 16:24:58 <gavinandresen> disident: no, not +universal. And I used boost HEAD (I forget the brew magic to do that)
1506 2014-03-17 16:25:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|thermoman: Not trivially
1507 2014-03-17 16:25:29 <gavinandresen> disident: ah, it is still in my shell history:    brew install boost --HEAD --without-single --without-static
1508 2014-03-17 16:25:36 <disident> :)
1509 2014-03-17 16:25:41 <helo> thermoman: you can downgrade pretty easily... see db5.1_dump and db4.8_load
1510 2014-03-17 16:26:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|IIRC if you have the dbutils for 5.1 and 4.8, you can downgrade with db5.1_dump|db4.8_load
1511 2014-03-17 16:26:02 <helo> arguably trivial imo
1512 2014-03-17 16:26:07 <gavinandresen> disident: make sure you '
1513 2014-03-17 16:26:14 <gavinandresen> disident: 'make clean' bitcoin
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1516 2014-03-17 16:26:27 <gavinandresen> disident: … and re-run configure
1517 2014-03-17 16:26:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|helo: It's less trivial than "just run the other version"
1518 2014-03-17 16:26:51 <disident> ok thanks
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1522 2014-03-17 16:29:45 <thermoman> helo: right
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1524 2014-03-17 16:30:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|thermoman: And as with any change, back up your wallet
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1529 2014-03-17 16:33:59 <goodbtc> Q: why is bitcoin-qt.exe doing QuerySizeInformationVolume for other volumes than the one he is installed on?
1530 2014-03-17 16:34:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|goodbtc: That's a good question.
1531 2014-03-17 16:34:57 <goodbtc> waking up my secondary HDD from time to time for nothing
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1533 2014-03-17 16:35:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(what does "doing QuerySizeInformationVolume" mean?)
1534 2014-03-17 16:35:24 <goodbtc> he is looking at the volume information
1535 2014-03-17 16:36:02 john___ has left ()
1536 2014-03-17 16:36:36 <goodbtc> as seen in process monitor ( http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896645.aspx )
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1539 2014-03-17 16:38:15 <thermoman> configure: error: Found Berkeley DB other than 4.8, required for portable wallets (--with-incompatible-bdb to ignore)
1540 2014-03-17 16:38:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|thermoman: Yep, it tells you what to do
1541 2014-03-17 16:38:44 <thermoman> if i don't want to use the wallets from this 0.9 client with <0.9 clients, there is no problem, right?
1542 2014-03-17 16:38:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|thermoman: 0.9 is irrelevant
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1544 2014-03-17 16:39:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's just what BDB you build with
1545 2014-03-17 16:39:15 <thermoman> ehm, sorry, yes
1546 2014-03-17 16:39:28 <thermoman> i'm building 0.9 with db5.1 now
1547 2014-03-17 16:39:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just keep in mind (maybe note along with the wallet backup) that it's a 5.1 wallet
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1549 2014-03-17 16:40:14 <thermoman> next problem
1550 2014-03-17 16:40:15 <thermoman> conftest.cpp: In function 'int main()':
1551 2014-03-17 16:40:15 <thermoman> conftest.cpp:38:21: warning: unused variable 'test' [-Wunused-variable]
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1553 2014-03-17 16:40:19 <thermoman> configure:11333: error: Could not link against boost_thread !
1554 2014-03-17 16:40:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What boost do you have?
1555 2014-03-17 16:40:35 <thermoman> 1.49
1556 2014-03-17 16:40:43 <thermoman> newest in wheezy
1557 2014-03-17 16:40:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Try getting 1.55?
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1559 2014-03-17 16:41:00 <thermoman> uncool
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1566 2014-03-17 16:44:21 <thermoman> michagogo|cloud: apt-get install libboost-test-dev solved it
1567 2014-03-17 16:44:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Nice
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1569 2014-03-17 16:44:43 <thermoman> what the heck is pkg-config ...
1570 2014-03-17 16:45:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google pkg-config
1571 2014-03-17 16:45:05 <gribble> pkg-config: <http://pkg-config.freedesktop.org/>; Guide to pkg-config - FreeDesktop.Org: <http://people.freedesktop.org/~dbn/pkg-config-guide.html>; Index of /releases - pkg-config - Freedesktop.org: <http://pkgconfig.freedesktop.org/releases/>
1572 2014-03-17 16:45:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|pkg-config is a helper tool used when compiling applications and libraries. It helps you insert the correct compiler options on the command line so an application can use gcc -o test test.cpkg-config --libs --cflags glib-2.0 for instance, rather than hard-coding values on where to find glib (or other libraries). It is language-agnostic, so it can be used for
1573 2014-03-17 16:45:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|defining the location of documentation tools, for instance.
1574 2014-03-17 16:45:30 <disident> gavinandresen: i get the same error :(
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1576 2014-03-17 16:45:42 <disident> Undefined symbols for architecture x86_64:
1577 2014-03-17 16:45:48 <thermoman> michagogo|cloud: configure ran without problems now
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1579 2014-03-17 16:45:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|thermoman: great!
1580 2014-03-17 16:46:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|thermoman: Oh, did you install `libboost-all-dev`?
1581 2014-03-17 16:46:36 <thermoman> michagogo|cloud: no - i don't want all the clutter there
1582 2014-03-17 16:46:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah
1583 2014-03-17 16:46:45 <thermoman> when indeed only some packages are needed
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1595 2014-03-17 17:02:55 <spr4wl_org> howdy everyone.     quick question:    I have an app that interacts with various coin daemons (bit, lite, max, ppc, etc) through RPC.  I am polling for getblockcount, then do a getblockhash with the number, then do a getblock with the hash...  which seems all standard. ...    except, many times (from technically all coin daemons)   right after the "block count" changes, I am getting either :   {"message":"Block not found","
1596 2014-03-17 17:02:55 <spr4wl_org> error for the number (as if the daemon didn't just tell me what the height is at the moment ....     after a few (milli)seconds, the block is found and there is no issue
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1599 2014-03-17 17:04:38 <spr4wl_org> any thoughs on this?   are the daemons giving me a height, before the hash can be accessed and a hash before a block can be accessed ?   I am running latest (stable) of all the daemons (AFAIK) ....     it is not a big issue, maybe I just need some timing before the new height can be used, but what is the logic here I am not getting
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1606 2014-03-17 17:08:13 <spr4wl_org> PPC seems to be the worst with this r;{"message":"Block number out of range.","code":-1}   in which case, the daemon just returned a block count, that is 4x the height ... .  how is this even possible, cannot the blockcount variable be trusted?
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1609 2014-03-17 17:11:04 <spr4wl_org> thermoman: what I do, is make a kvm virtual machine, install all the "clutter" there. Then move the executable back to the host. then do an ldd on the executable, that will tell me the library list I need.. then you can have a compile only and a clutter-free run only host ...   if that helps ...
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1613 2014-03-17 17:13:08 <spr4wl_org> thermoman: actually I use 2 physical machines at home (one clean one dev) , but if I only have one server, then I go KVM  (or Xen), and do the same ...   this really helps with not ending up with trying to install 50 libs until something compiles (figuring 49 of the libs just sounded like I needed them)
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1696 2014-03-17 18:08:41 <disident> Is there a script somewhere to setup the building env on windows ? thanks
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1702 2014-03-17 18:12:48 <Persopolis> disident - have you seen the document director - there is instructions for building in each platform
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1704 2014-03-17 18:13:28 <shanik1986> Hey, is anyone having trouble with btc-e API the last few days?
1705 2014-03-17 18:13:29 <disident> Persopolis: i tried but im getting error, thats why im looking for an automatation script
1706 2014-03-17 18:13:48 <disident> in fact a tar ball will lib built would be perfect
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1709 2014-03-17 18:14:33 <Persopolis> I'm afraind I haven't tried to build on windows, so can't advise!
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1815 2014-03-17 19:28:42 <spr4wl_org> disident: you could actually just try to open the project in netbeans
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1818 2014-03-17 19:29:48 <spr4wl_org> disident:  though I tried that on mac ... I don't use windows ...   but it might help you
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1851 2014-03-17 19:55:18 <disident> spr4wl_org: thanks will try that
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1858 2014-03-17 20:00:58 <bdhuser> what is the content of the inventory vector of a getdata message sent in response to an initial inv message?
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1955 2014-03-17 21:12:11 <flound1129> is there a way to know how many nodes a tx has been broadcasted thru from the command line?
1956 2014-03-17 21:12:16 <flound1129> or is that info only available in the gui?
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1967 2014-03-17 21:18:59 <vegard> flound1129: try #bitcoin and is that info even _knowable_? or did you mean the number of confirmations?
1968 2014-03-17 21:19:09 anarchystar is now known as MagicalMark
1969 2014-03-17 21:19:18 <flound1129> well
1970 2014-03-17 21:19:21 <sipa> it's a good question, imho
1971 2014-03-17 21:19:24 lnovy is now known as MagicalMole
1972 2014-03-17 21:19:27 <flound1129> if you double click on a transaction in the gui
1973 2014-03-17 21:19:33 <sipa> and i think it may only be exposed in the gui
1974 2014-03-17 21:19:36 <sipa> and yes, it is tracked
1975 2014-03-17 21:19:37 <flound1129> it will say "0/unconfirmed, brodcast thru <x> nodes"
1976 2014-03-17 21:19:58 <sipa> the wallet code tracks how many getdatas for that transaction are received
1977 2014-03-17 21:20:29 Emzy has joined
1978 2014-03-17 21:20:39 <flound1129> I've got a 'stuck' transaction that I'm trying to unstick
1979 2014-03-17 21:20:43 <flound1129> rebroadcasting isn't working
1980 2014-03-17 21:20:49 <sipa> how so?
1981 2014-03-17 21:20:53 CryptDrift has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1982 2014-03-17 21:20:57 <flound1129> I get "TX rejected" when I try to rebroadcast
1983 2014-03-17 21:21:15 <sipa> that's normal; your own rejects its because it has already accepted it
1984 2014-03-17 21:21:23 <flound1129> ok
1985 2014-03-17 21:21:25 <flound1129> let me try elsewhere
1986 2014-03-17 21:21:26 <sipa> but wallet transactions are automatically rebroadcasted
1987 2014-03-17 21:21:33 <sipa> every 20-30 minutes
1988 2014-03-17 21:22:00 <flound1129> I know but this one has been sitting for at least 2 days
1989 2014-03-17 21:22:04 <flound1129> and it's got a tx fee
1990 2014-03-17 21:22:06 <flound1129> so it's not that
1991 2014-03-17 21:22:33 <sipa> does it conflict with another transaction?
1992 2014-03-17 21:22:53 Pullphinger has quit ()
1993 2014-03-17 21:23:21 <flound1129> I don't see how it would
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1998 2014-03-17 21:23:31 <flound1129> I use standard methods, I don't create transactions myself
1999 2014-03-17 21:23:33 HeySteve has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2000 2014-03-17 21:24:01 <sipa> how was it created?
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2005 2014-03-17 21:24:21 <flound1129> sendmany
2006 2014-03-17 21:24:25 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
2007 2014-03-17 21:24:30 <sipa> what's the txid?
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2010 2014-03-17 21:24:47 <flound1129> 3fea7838555ceb5b92a5b1ba12408e96469475e5258a6ca0b8fa433a1fc55e0b
2011 2014-03-17 21:25:02 <Apocalyptic> sipa, is there a rcp command to remove a specific tx ?
2012 2014-03-17 21:25:24 <sipa> no
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2014 2014-03-17 21:27:01 <justanotheruser> hmm. Is the mempool actually stored in the memory? Or a file?
2015 2014-03-17 21:27:08 <sipa> in memory
2016 2014-03-17 21:27:37 <_alp_> if it was stored in a file it would be called filepool :)
2017 2014-03-17 21:27:44 paveljanik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2018 2014-03-17 21:27:45 <Apocalyptic> thanks sipa
2019 2014-03-17 21:27:58 <justanotheruser> I suppose you could edit your memory to remove the tx, but it would probably come right back to you from one of your peers
2020 2014-03-17 21:28:16 <Apocalyptic> justanotheruser, well that tx is probably in wallet.dat also
2021 2014-03-17 21:28:17 <sipa> just restart your node
2022 2014-03-17 21:28:23 <sipa> that will reset the mempool
2023 2014-03-17 21:28:26 <Apocalyptic> as it supposedly originated from me
2024 2014-03-17 21:28:29 <sipa> but indeed, it will be added back from the wallet
2025 2014-03-17 21:28:34 <Apocalyptic> sipa, that doesn't fix it
2026 2014-03-17 21:28:38 <Apocalyptic> fir the reason above
2027 2014-03-17 21:28:53 <Apocalyptic> i have it for a month now
2028 2014-03-17 21:29:17 <Apocalyptic> it's a malleability double spend of a valid one that got confirmed ages ago
2029 2014-03-17 21:29:23 <sipa> oh
2030 2014-03-17 21:29:24 <justanotheruser> Oh, I didn't realize you were talking about a tx involving you, and not just a tx in general
2031 2014-03-17 21:29:25 <sipa> just ignore that
2032 2014-03-17 21:29:38 <sipa> 0.9 will mark it conflicted and stop rebroadcasting
2033 2014-03-17 21:29:56 <Apocalyptic> sipa, yeah it still makes my balance incorrect and potentially that input is considered not spendable anymore
2034 2014-03-17 21:30:12 <sipa> Apocalyptic: 0.9 will fix that
2035 2014-03-17 21:30:17 <justanotheruser> I hope malleability is fixed by 1.0. I'm not good enough with math to help though
2036 2014-03-17 21:30:23 <sipa> it will be fixed in 0.9
2037 2014-03-17 21:30:26 <Apocalyptic> i was wonder if I could fix it in my 0.8.6 though
2038 2014-03-17 21:30:36 <justanotheruser> sipa: DoS from malleability will
2039 2014-03-17 21:30:36 <sipa> -salvagewallet will fix it
2040 2014-03-17 21:30:42 <Apocalyptic> sure...
2041 2014-03-17 21:30:48 <Apocalyptic> but that's kinda drastic
2042 2014-03-17 21:30:50 <sipa> but that's a very rough method
2043 2014-03-17 21:30:52 <sipa> yeah
2044 2014-03-17 21:30:54 <Apocalyptic> don't want to loose labels and stuff
2045 2014-03-17 21:30:57 <Apocalyptic> *lose
2046 2014-03-17 21:31:09 <sipa> justanotheruser: DoS needs to be dealt with independently, it's orthogonal to malleability
2047 2014-03-17 21:31:20 <sipa> and malleability as such is a feature
2048 2014-03-17 21:31:37 <sipa> but many wallet code (including the reference client's) didn't deal with it well
2049 2014-03-17 21:31:37 nowan has joined
2050 2014-03-17 21:31:50 <justanotheruser> sipa: Malleability itself isn't being fixed in 0.9 AFAIK
2051 2014-03-17 21:32:06 <sipa> malleability _cannot_ be fixed
2052 2014-03-17 21:32:09 <sipa> it is a feature
2053 2014-03-17 21:32:11 <Apocalyptic> it's not a bug !
2054 2014-03-17 21:32:18 <sipa> the wallet dealing with it will be fixed in 0.9
2055 2014-03-17 21:32:37 <sipa> and there's a proposal for making transactions _optionally_ immune to malleability
2056 2014-03-17 21:32:58 <sipa> but that will take months/more to deploy, as it requires a soft fork
2057 2014-03-17 21:33:04 <justanotheruser> sipa: It might be possible to fix and fixing it would make bitcoin more flexible
2058 2014-03-17 21:33:19 <sipa> read bip 62
2059 2014-03-17 21:33:24 MagicalMark is now known as anarchystar
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2061 2014-03-17 21:33:38 <sipa> and uh no, removing malleability will not make things more flexible
2062 2014-03-17 21:33:42 <sipa> as it means removing a feature
2063 2014-03-17 21:33:55 <sipa> but sometimes it is wanted
2064 2014-03-17 21:33:57 <justanotheruser> sipa: you will be able to make more smart-contracts
2065 2014-03-17 21:34:04 <justanotheruser> secure coinswaps will be possible
2066 2014-03-17 21:34:06 <sipa> yeah
2067 2014-03-17 21:34:22 <sipa> it's useful, but i wouldn't call it "more flexiblee" :)
2068 2014-03-17 21:34:35 <justanotheruser> BIP62 doesn't cover unknown ECDSA malleability
2069 2014-03-17 21:34:45 <sipa> it doesn't cover any unknown malleability
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2071 2014-03-17 21:35:03 <waxwing> lol
2072 2014-03-17 21:35:05 <justanotheruser> sipa: and any unknown malleability would come from ECDSA
2073 2014-03-17 21:35:24 <Apocalyptic> sipa, but I guess i'm getting a ban score as I continuously broadcast this double spend
2074 2014-03-17 21:35:39 <sipa> justanotheruser: no
2075 2014-03-17 21:35:54 <sipa> justanotheruser: it's perfectly possible that there are other unknown sources of malleability in the script language
2076 2014-03-17 21:35:59 <sipa> Apocalyptic: no
2077 2014-03-17 21:36:11 <sipa> Apocalyptic: you don't get banned for broadcasting a double spend
2078 2014-03-17 21:36:19 <Apocalyptic> isn't that considered as a node misbehaving ?
2079 2014-03-17 21:36:23 <justanotheruser> sipa: yes, but it would be the users fault if they allowed multiple scriptsigs to work
2080 2014-03-17 21:36:47 ninsei_ has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
2081 2014-03-17 21:36:48 <sipa> Apocalyptic: that would mean i can get an entire segment of the network banned
2082 2014-03-17 21:37:03 <sipa> Apocalyptic: so no, broadcasting a doubl e spend is not illegal and cannot be
2083 2014-03-17 21:37:05 ninsei has joined
2084 2014-03-17 21:37:12 <sipa> justanotheruser: not if it's due to unknown reasons
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2086 2014-03-17 21:37:16 <Apocalyptic> I see, indeed
2087 2014-03-17 21:37:26 <sipa> justanotheruser: while writing BIP62 i came up with a previous unknown source even
2088 2014-03-17 21:37:36 <justanotheruser> sipa: What was the source?
2089 2014-03-17 21:37:48 aynstei__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2090 2014-03-17 21:37:52 <sipa> the byte arrays interpretation as number with zero padding one
2091 2014-03-17 21:38:01 yubrew has joined
2092 2014-03-17 21:38:03 <sipa> which is exploitable in standard scripts, even
2093 2014-03-17 21:38:12 <justanotheruser> sipa: Also, wouldn't a proof that the scripting system isn't malleable be easier than a proof that ECDSA isn't malleable?
2094 2014-03-17 21:38:28 <sipa> justanotheruser: the scripting system is _intentionally_ malleable
2095 2014-03-17 21:38:34 <sipa> justanotheruser: proving it isn't will be hard!
2096 2014-03-17 21:38:51 <sipa> even after bip62, it will be intentionally malleable
2097 2014-03-17 21:39:04 <sipa> (sighash flags, for example)
2098 2014-03-17 21:39:17 <justanotheruser> sipa: do you foresee tx's ever not being malleable?
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2100 2014-03-17 21:40:03 <sipa> in case the sender wants it, yes, with bip62 v3 transactions
2101 2014-03-17 21:40:13 <sipa> modulo unknown sources of malleability
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2110 2014-03-17 21:47:00 <phantomcircuit> ;;seen gavinandresen
2111 2014-03-17 21:47:00 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 5 hours, 20 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> disident: … and re-run configure
2112 2014-03-17 21:47:10 <waxwing> noob question i guess, but why can't the txid be a hash of absolutely  everything except the signature?
2113 2014-03-17 21:47:39 <sipa> waxwing: very good question
2114 2014-03-17 21:47:52 <sipa> waxwing: maybe if we'd create bitcoin today, that could be done
2115 2014-03-17 21:47:53 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, "do you foresee tx's ever not being malleable?"  <<-- Even including the aforementioned sighash malleability, do you mean?
2116 2014-03-17 21:47:57 <jgarzik> I hope that never goes away.
2117 2014-03-17 21:48:07 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, what?
2118 2014-03-17 21:48:20 c0rw1n has joined
2119 2014-03-17 21:48:39 <sipa> waxwing: making the signature sort of an attachment, only there to make it valid
2120 2014-03-17 21:48:47 <waxwing> sipa, well obvious follow up, why can't it be done today?
2121 2014-03-17 21:49:01 aquarat has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2122 2014-03-17 21:49:03 <sipa> waxwing: it would require changing every piece of bitcoin software on earth
2123 2014-03-17 21:49:21 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, The question to your question is "no" if you were speaking generally.
2124 2014-03-17 21:49:24 Krellan_ has joined
2125 2014-03-17 21:49:35 <waxwing> sipa, well there's that i guess
2126 2014-03-17 21:49:37 <sipa> jgarzik: you mean justanotheruser, not phantomcircuit
2127 2014-03-17 21:49:46 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i didn't ask that :P
2128 2014-03-17 21:49:52 * jgarzik kicks his brain
2129 2014-03-17 21:49:59 Aquent has joined
2130 2014-03-17 21:50:03 * sipa pours some coffee in jgarzik
2131 2014-03-17 21:50:04 <phantomcircuit> hehe
2132 2014-03-17 21:50:20 <jgarzik> indeed, s/phantomcircuit/justanotheruser/
2133 2014-03-17 21:50:22 <sipa> actually, i'll get some myself!
2134 2014-03-17 21:50:27 draino has joined
2135 2014-03-17 21:50:28 <justanotheruser> What
2136 2014-03-17 21:50:43 <Aquent> !seen gavinandresen
2137 2014-03-17 21:50:43 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 5 hours, 24 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> disident: … and re-run configure
2138 2014-03-17 21:51:07 <jgarzik> My eyes were sitting there staring at "phantomcircuit" then twitched over to "do you foresee tx's ever not being malleable?"
2139 2014-03-17 21:51:17 <jgarzik> I think some sort of Mexican food is the best corrective action.
2140 2014-03-17 21:51:24 <justanotheruser> jgarzik: Well obviously some will want their tx to not be malleable
2141 2014-03-17 21:51:32 <justanotheruser> and some will make them malleable on purpose
2142 2014-03-17 21:51:36 <phantomcircuit> I do not expect transactions to ever be entirely fixed
2143 2014-03-17 21:51:46 <justanotheruser> That's too bad :(
2144 2014-03-17 21:51:53 <sipa> justanotheruser: bip62's purpose is providing optional non-malleability
2145 2014-03-17 21:52:04 <sipa> justanotheruser: but it cannot account for unknown sources of malleability
2146 2014-03-17 21:52:11 Luke-Jr has joined
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2148 2014-03-17 21:52:30 <justanotheruser> sipa: yeah, but there could be proofs that every component of a tx can be made non-malleable, right?
2149 2014-03-17 21:52:41 _alp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2150 2014-03-17 21:52:49 <sipa> justanotheruser: be my guest
2151 2014-03-17 21:52:51 <gmaxwell> some tx cannot be non-malleable, inherently. It's a feature, not a bug.
2152 2014-03-17 21:52:52 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2153 2014-03-17 21:53:03 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: "can be made"
2154 2014-03-17 21:53:15 <waxwing> why do people keep saying it's a feature? what's the good aspect?
2155 2014-03-17 21:53:29 <sipa> waxwing: anyonecanpay transactions for example
2156 2014-03-17 21:53:51 <justanotheruser> sipa: minerscanpay :)
2157 2014-03-17 21:53:53 <sipa> in some cases, you want to allow modifications to a transaction after it is signed
2158 2014-03-17 21:53:54 debiantoruser has joined
2159 2014-03-17 21:53:58 <gmaxwell> waxwing: you can create intentionally malleable transactions, e.g. where fees can be added later or where multiple people can pool funds without knowing the payers in advance (e.g. a kickstarter)
2160 2014-03-17 21:54:12 <sipa> waxwing: in particular, when you don't know part of the transaction when signing
2161 2014-03-17 21:54:21 <waxwing> right
2162 2014-03-17 21:54:39 <waxwing> so really you want both: in some cases you want to know txid before confirm, in other cases you want flexibility
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2165 2014-03-17 21:55:12 <gmaxwell> right, its unfontunate that today you can never be completely free of it... but always being free of malleability isn't possible without losing useful functionality.
2166 2014-03-17 21:55:14 <waxwing> so BIP62 is give the option of non-malleability
2167 2014-03-17 21:55:15 ninsei has joined
2168 2014-03-17 21:55:30 <gmaxwell> yes, so long as you're not doing that inherently malleable things ... we hope.
2169 2014-03-17 21:55:31 <sipa> waxwing: exactly
2170 2014-03-17 21:55:43 <gmaxwell> It's actually quite hard to be sure the malleability is gone however.
2171 2014-03-17 21:56:04 <sipa> i should add a section to bip62 to explain exactly which classes of transactions can be protected by it
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2173 2014-03-17 21:58:08 <gmaxwell> I'm thinking of proposing a soft forking addition to add an OP_NLOCKTIMEVERIFY  which checks the spending transactions' nlocktime and peeks at the stack and fails the verification unless the nlocktime is >= the word on the stack and seq<maximum. ... this lets you have secure refunds, even in the inherently malleable cases. And it's unconditionally safe in reorgs, unlike some of the other transaction locking in script things that people ...
2174 2014-03-17 21:58:15 <gmaxwell> ... have asked for.
2175 2014-03-17 21:58:19 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, <vendor hat: on>  That is VERY interesting.  I "knew" that, but had not thought about TX fees in this context.  That would seem superior to relying on child-pays-for-parent to get our customer TXs confirmed.
2176 2014-03-17 21:58:28 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, Seems like it would require a minor payment protocol extension
2177 2014-03-17 21:58:44 <jgarzik> 1 tx is better than 2
2178 2014-03-17 21:58:53 <gmaxwell> "please sign this as anyone can pay" yes.
2179 2014-03-17 21:59:03 <jgarzik> but we need the wallet to know how to construct a TX where we can add another input.
2180 2014-03-17 21:59:33 <gmaxwell> it should be sufficient just to have the sighash flags, and then the wallet needs to gracefully handle the mutant getting mined instead.
2181 2014-03-17 21:59:43 <justanotheruser> Please estimate how much it would cost to fund the elimination (of undesired) malleability
2182 2014-03-17 21:59:49 bbrian has joined
2183 2014-03-17 22:00:26 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, yep
2184 2014-03-17 22:00:39 aquarat has joined
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2186 2014-03-17 22:00:59 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: there is a proposal, most of it is implemented. Some more things need to be implemented (multisig dummy value, and triggered enforcement in blocks)
2187 2014-03-17 22:01:26 Emcy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2188 2014-03-17 22:02:01 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: There need to be proofs that the scriptsig doesn't have unwanted malleability and ECDSA don't either, though, right?
2189 2014-03-17 22:02:40 <gmaxwell> oh you mean to be _sure_ of it. This might be quite hard.
2190 2014-03-17 22:02:46 <hearn> ecdsa itself is not proven
2191 2014-03-17 22:02:51 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2192 2014-03-17 22:02:52 <gmaxwell> because ^
2193 2014-03-17 22:03:00 ConvivialMatt has quit (Quit: ConvivialMatt)
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2197 2014-03-17 22:03:21 <maaku> gmaxwell: is that the same semantics as OP_MATURITY? (takes a height and returns true if buried by at least that many blocks)
2198 2014-03-17 22:03:26 <gmaxwell> The place I know about where its _super_ critical is refunds. And I think I can make a very simple proposal that makes most refunds not care about malleability at all.
2199 2014-03-17 22:03:29 <justanotheruser> hearn: to my understanding, you can prove ECDSA isn't malleable while assuming it's secure
2200 2014-03-17 22:03:46 <sipa> justanotheruser: please do!
2201 2014-03-17 22:03:54 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, refunds?
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2203 2014-03-17 22:04:08 <gmaxwell> maaku: OP_MATURITY is not reorg safe (esp if you invert the test, if you didn't really mean OP_MATURITYVERIFY)
2204 2014-03-17 22:04:13 <justanotheruser> sipa: Hah, I was just talking to someone who was looking at such a proof, I am not able to do that
2205 2014-03-17 22:04:31 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: It's possible, but the point is that it's hard to prove anything at all about ECDSA.
2206 2014-03-17 22:04:42 <maaku> ok i see that, but is OP_MATURITYVERIFY safe?
2207 2014-03-17 22:04:50 <gmaxwell> ECDSA is the patent dodge bastard stepchild of schnorr signatures.
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2209 2014-03-17 22:05:06 <maaku> it seems simpler than some nLockTime-specific restriciton
2210 2014-03-17 22:05:08 <sipa> gmaxwell: by OP_MATURITY we mean: fail verification if top stack element is more than number of confirmations
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2212 2014-03-17 22:05:26 <maaku> sipa: s/more/less/ ?
2213 2014-03-17 22:05:29 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: Weren't you telling me schnorr sigs were massive?
2214 2014-03-17 22:05:34 <sipa> maaku: more
2215 2014-03-17 22:05:39 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: huh? no.
2216 2014-03-17 22:05:48 <sipa> justanotheruser: you mean lamport signatures
2217 2014-03-17 22:05:53 <jgarzik> OP_MATURITYVERIFY would be useful in my microchannel payments server/client pair: https://github.com/jgarzik/mcp
2218 2014-03-17 22:05:59 <jgarzik> I just wrote refund TX code couple days ago.
2219 2014-03-17 22:06:00 <justanotheruser> sipa: probably
2220 2014-03-17 22:06:02 Neozonz has joined
2221 2014-03-17 22:06:11 <jgarzik> You implement it, I'll use it ;p
2222 2014-03-17 22:06:30 <justanotheruser> When does the schnorr patent expire?
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2225 2014-03-17 22:06:38 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'd need to think more.  I like the locktime check because it is entirely stateless with respect to the blockchain. It's just a checksig operator, effectively: test if the transaction meets some criteria.
2226 2014-03-17 22:06:45 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: a year ago.
2227 2014-03-17 22:06:55 <sipa> gmaxwell: same with what i propose
2228 2014-03-17 22:07:03 <sipa> gmaxwell: i think we're talking about the same thing
2229 2014-03-17 22:07:09 tombtc has quit (Quit: Wychodzi)
2230 2014-03-17 22:07:13 <gmaxwell> OK.
2231 2014-03-17 22:07:13 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: So the only thing preventing it from being in bitcoin is a hardfork?
2232 2014-03-17 22:07:16 <maaku> sipa: right, I failed at parsing your description
2233 2014-03-17 22:07:30 _ImI_ has quit (Quit: _ImI_)
2234 2014-03-17 22:07:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: well, i don't know what locktime has to do with it
2235 2014-03-17 22:07:58 _alp_ has joined
2236 2014-03-17 22:08:06 <maaku> gmaxwell: the nLockTime check has the disadvantage that you don't know ahead of time when the TX will make it in the chain...
2237 2014-03-17 22:08:21 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2238 2014-03-17 22:08:35 <maaku> although I suppose that is fine for some use cases
2239 2014-03-17 22:09:01 Neozonz has quit (Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2240 2014-03-17 22:09:19 Emcy_ has joined
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2244 2014-03-17 22:09:27 <gmaxwell> so if you actually want to make it relative I don't think it's as reorg safe, it's also not chain-stateless.
2245 2014-03-17 22:09:48 ninsei has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
2246 2014-03-17 22:09:56 <gmaxwell> Since to know if txn X is valid you need to know where X.parent was mined.  And then the validity is conditional on past state external to X and X.parent.
2247 2014-03-17 22:10:04 <gmaxwell> So what I'm suggesting is, in fact, different.
2248 2014-03-17 22:10:05 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, bleh xchat killed itself, refund transaction?
2249 2014-03-17 22:10:05 ninsei has joined
2250 2014-03-17 22:10:15 <phantomcircuit> as in a transaction to refund a previous transaction?
2251 2014-03-17 22:10:32 maraoz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2254 2014-03-17 22:11:10 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: like you pay into an escrow, but to prevent holdup you make sure that if the escrow isn't released by some time, that you can release it eventually.  (e.g. by having someone compute a pre-signed nlocked refund transaction)
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2256 2014-03-17 22:11:29 <phantomcircuit> ah
2257 2014-03-17 22:11:43 <justanotheruser> Gmaxwell, do you have a post explaining this proposal?
2258 2014-03-17 22:12:04 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: which proposal?
2259 2014-03-17 22:12:35 <justanotheruser> 18:02 < gmaxwell> The place I know about where its _super_ critical is refunds. And I think I can make a very simple proposal that makes most refunds not care about  malleability at all.
2260 2014-03-17 22:12:39 <justanotheruser> 18:02 < gmaxwell> The place I know about where its _super_ critical is refunds. And I think I can make a very simple proposal that makes most refunds not care about  malleability at all.
2261 2014-03-17 22:12:43 <justanotheruser> 18:02 < gmaxwell> The place I know about where its _super_ critical is refunds. And I think I can make a very simple proposal that makes most refunds not care about  malleability at all.
2262 2014-03-17 22:12:47 <justanotheruser> Sorry!
2263 2014-03-17 22:13:26 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: Not yet.
2264 2014-03-17 22:13:31 Emcy has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2265 2014-03-17 22:13:45 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: I assume it can do more than just handle refunds?
2266 2014-03-17 22:13:59 <gmaxwell> It's the OP_NLOCKTIMEVERIFY (or OP_MATURITYVERIFY) stuff just mentioned.
2267 2014-03-17 22:14:11 <gmaxwell> Sure it could be used to achieve funds that can't be spent and things like that.
2268 2014-03-17 22:14:14 <justanotheruser> Oh, I was away. I'll read that
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2273 2014-03-17 22:14:41 <gmaxwell> which you could also do with nlocktime and throwing away a key... but thats messy and requires basically an extra transaction and is slain by malleability too
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2276 2014-03-17 22:15:50 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I also want to build a very simple service that holds onto time-locked transactions until (a) they unlock or (b) are double-spent away
2277 2014-03-17 22:16:02 <jgarzik> Dead man's switch, auto-refund, many applications of that.
2278 2014-03-17 22:16:12 <jgarzik> as the network will not relay them
2279 2014-03-17 22:16:15 <gmaxwell> yea sure. thats trivial.
2280 2014-03-17 22:16:53 Luke-Jr has joined
2281 2014-03-17 22:16:59 <gmaxwell> well less trivial if they auto-cull conflicted transactions to save space.
2282 2014-03-17 22:17:32 <phantomcircuit> i cant remember, is the nlocktime stuff disabled or merely very very heavily discouraged?
2283 2014-03-17 22:17:38 <gmaxwell> next question is should wallets support having a mode which autogenerates transactions and passes them off to this service, so, e.g. if you go 5 years without transacting your coins go to charity. :P
2284 2014-03-17 22:17:48 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it's neither disabled or discouraged.
2285 2014-03-17 22:17:57 <phantomcircuit> hmm
2286 2014-03-17 22:18:00 ninsei_ has joined
2287 2014-03-17 22:18:06 <gmaxwell> Transactions which are not past their locktime do not relay... as they're not valid yet.
2288 2014-03-17 22:18:12 <phantomcircuit> clearly i need to spend less time building credit card fraud prevention models....
2289 2014-03-17 22:18:32 <phantomcircuit> (which fyi are entirely pointless)
2290 2014-03-17 22:18:39 <gmaxwell> (they used to relay and that got disabled, .. as it was a dos attack vector and because it was a theft vector for wallets that were dumb enough to display them :) )
2291 2014-03-17 22:18:51 <phantomcircuit> ah
2292 2014-03-17 22:18:51 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
2293 2014-03-17 22:18:52 <phantomcircuit> heh
2294 2014-03-17 22:18:57 <hearn> i doubt they are pointless
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2298 2014-03-17 22:19:42 <phantomcircuit> hearn, for a merchant they are largely pointless, you simply dont have enough actual data to build a functional model
2299 2014-03-17 22:19:57 <phantomcircuit> im sure visa/mastercard could do a much better job
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2302 2014-03-17 22:21:48 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, yeah, time-lock'd relaying is clearly a DoS vector
2303 2014-03-17 22:22:08 <jgarzik> Ideally I'd like to build a server that $somehow cooperates with other independent operators to store these time-lock'd TXs
2304 2014-03-17 22:22:11 <jgarzik> no single service SPOF
2305 2014-03-17 22:22:13 <hearn> well, i guess they were biased, but the google checkout team always claimed the banks/visa were useless and they ended up having to stop most of the fraud themselves
2306 2014-03-17 22:22:21 <hearn> banks had fewer signals
2307 2014-03-17 22:22:38 softwaremechanic has joined
2308 2014-03-17 22:22:53 <jgarzik> hearn, That's the experience of the bitcoin community too :)  Banks just operate in Wrath Of God Mode:  if fraud appears, it is your fault, account closed.
2309 2014-03-17 22:23:17 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: sure sure, like the pgp keyserver network.
2310 2014-03-17 22:23:39 _ImI_ has joined
2311 2014-03-17 22:23:57 <hearn> jgarzik: it could be a p2p network
2312 2014-03-17 22:24:04 <jouke> jgarzik: tell me about it.
2313 2014-03-17 22:24:09 <hearn> jgarzik: perhaps, they could relay transactions to each other and store them on disk!
2314 2014-03-17 22:24:10 <gmaxwell> and DOS is prevented by requring that the transactions in question spend existant txouts... and the fact that disk space is relatively cheap.
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2317 2014-03-17 22:25:07 <gmaxwell> hearn: difference of course being that you opt into taking an extra tbyte of disk space, vs having it imposed on you by virtue of running a bitcoin node. We don't need anywhere near as much distribution for a future transaction queue. :)
2318 2014-03-17 22:25:11 <maaku> jgarzik: why not relay nLockTime'd transactions, but put them in a separate holding area (not visible to wallet code or the mempool)
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2320 2014-03-17 22:25:47 <jgarzik> maaku, still too easy to DoS with apparently-valid use cases
2321 2014-03-17 22:26:09 <jgarzik> maaku, you might want to rapidly revise a transaction
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2325 2014-03-17 22:27:12 <hearn> gmaxwell: well, you can always specify how much disk space you want to spend and throw away any transactions that fall out of the queue
2326 2014-03-17 22:27:24 <gmaxwell> still have the relay bandwidth involved.
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2330 2014-03-17 22:30:48 <hearn> gmaxwell: bandwidth is the same as for a non-timelocked transaction
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2332 2014-03-17 22:31:14 <gmaxwell> hearn: non-timelocked transactions actually go through, so the fees they pay (and such) actually mean something.
2333 2014-03-17 22:31:14 <hearn> (until replacement is reactivated)
2334 2014-03-17 22:31:59 <gmaxwell> vs, spamming a locked transaction, then going and double spending it.. then doing it again with the new txout.
2335 2014-03-17 22:32:12 yubrew has joined
2336 2014-03-17 22:32:50 <hearn> either you can quickly and easily find miners who ignore the rules, in which case it's not so different to a regular transaction. or it takes a long time to double spend it, in which case you're paying opportunity cost
2337 2014-03-17 22:33:02 <hearn> anyway, shifting all this to a separate system doesn't resolve any of the issues
2338 2014-03-17 22:33:41 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2339 2014-03-17 22:33:45 <gmaxwell> It does because a couple dozen servers that do that requires less resources in total than thousands of nodes.
2340 2014-03-17 22:34:06 Starduster has quit (Quit: gotta go)
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2346 2014-03-17 22:36:53 <hearn> nodes can just inform peers of the max lock time they're able to store, given their disk space capacity. it doesn't seem like a big issue to me. the longer term the time lock is, the less it propagates
2347 2014-03-17 22:37:10 <firelegend> To watch transactions in "real-time" would I only need to implement the network protocol part in a program?
2348 2014-03-17 22:37:25 Luke-Jr has joined
2349 2014-03-17 22:37:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...TechStuff got gavinandresen's name wrong... They called him Avin.
2350 2014-03-17 22:37:54 <maaku> firelegend: sure, or modify bitcoind to notify you when it sees a transaction (probably easier)
2351 2014-03-17 22:37:58 ryanxcha_ has joined
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2354 2014-03-17 22:38:18 <sipa> Avin Ndresen?
2355 2014-03-17 22:38:34 <justanotheruser> maaku: You wouldn't even have to modify bitcoind, you just would have to getrawmempool and look for differences
2356 2014-03-17 22:39:07 <firelegend> Sure bitcoind has all I need, but it's a bit of a resource hog(space wise) plus should be fun :D. And yes, I only want to do it for the fun of it, not do something important with it :)
2357 2014-03-17 22:39:25 <maaku> anyone know how to build Bitcoin-Qt.app on the Mac under the new autotools build process?
2358 2014-03-17 22:40:07 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2359 2014-03-17 22:40:28 <sipa> maaku: cfields and gavinandresen presumably do
2360 2014-03-17 22:42:09 hmmma has joined
2361 2014-03-17 22:42:52 <hearn> maaku: ./configure && make not working for you?
2362 2014-03-17 22:44:20 fronti has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2365 2014-03-17 22:45:00 ninsei has joined
2366 2014-03-17 22:45:06 <maaku> hearn: it builds bitcoin-qt (the executable), but not Bitcoin-Qt.app (the Mac OS X package)
2367 2014-03-17 22:45:24 <hearn> ah
2368 2014-03-17 22:45:26 <hearn> not sure
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2370 2014-03-17 22:46:15 <sipa> make deploy
2371 2014-03-17 22:46:19 <sipa> or something like that?
2372 2014-03-17 22:46:28 <sipa> make dist
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2379 2014-03-17 22:50:36 <maaku> ah, make deploy
2380 2014-03-17 22:50:37 <maaku> thanks
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2387 2014-03-17 22:53:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|God dammit, they're getting mining wrong
2388 2014-03-17 22:53:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|They're claiming there's progress
2389 2014-03-17 22:53:23 <sipa> ?
2390 2014-03-17 22:53:26 <sipa> who
2391 2014-03-17 22:53:44 hmsimha has joined
2392 2014-03-17 22:54:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Saying "it's not a slot machine, someone else might get it and you'll have to start over"
2393 2014-03-17 22:54:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: Jonathan and Lauren, the hosts of TechStuff
2394 2014-03-17 22:54:30 jMyles has joined
2395 2014-03-17 22:54:32 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|goes to write an email
2396 2014-03-17 22:54:34 <gmaxwell> ::sigh:: of course.
2397 2014-03-17 22:54:36 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2398 2014-03-17 22:54:40 <sipa> well, that's not incorrect as such
2399 2014-03-17 22:54:51 <sipa> you do have to start over when someone else finds a block
2400 2014-03-17 22:54:54 johnsoft has joined
2401 2014-03-17 22:54:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: no you don't
2402 2014-03-17 22:54:59 <sipa> but you have to start over all the time anyway
2403 2014-03-17 22:55:04 <gmaxwell> except "start over" implies progress, as you're .. right.
2404 2014-03-17 22:55:11 jMyles has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2405 2014-03-17 22:55:26 tinaivanova has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 27.0.1/20140212131424])
2406 2014-03-17 22:55:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I guess for some definitions of "start over"
2407 2014-03-17 22:55:43 <sipa> and depending on what you're referring to... you don't continuously restart the block creation (as opposed to hashing)
2408 2014-03-17 22:55:51 <sipa> and that is something you have to redo when a new block is found
2409 2014-03-17 22:55:58 <sipa> then again, fully agree that it's at least misleading
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2411 2014-03-17 22:56:28 <gmaxwell> man, I think we left you in proximity to luke for too long. :P
2412 2014-03-17 22:56:40 ninsei has joined
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2414 2014-03-17 22:57:26 <sipa> haha!
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2417 2014-03-17 23:00:59 <Luke-Jr> …
2418 2014-03-17 23:01:19 <Luke-Jr> you definitely have to start over with a given hash
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2420 2014-03-17 23:01:25 <Luke-Jr> but, you do that constantly :D
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2422 2014-03-17 23:02:01 <gmaxwell> Yea, I'm ribbing you, don't worry about it.  It's just that brand of pedantically correct in some sense but not always the most useful defintion.
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2427 2014-03-17 23:04:22 <andytoshi> i think we could've used it in the #bitcoin conversation about this you just had gmaxwell, there was a lot of definition confusion about the "same block" and i'm not convinced that everyone who claimed to understand actually did..
2428 2014-03-17 23:05:17 <gmaxwell> I think they didn't but I gave up.
2429 2014-03-17 23:05:25 <gmaxwell> I'm sure they were laboring under the restart confusion.
2430 2014-03-17 23:05:42 <gmaxwell> But to be clear, I mean what the thing michagogo|cloud was citing was misleading.
2431 2014-03-17 23:06:39 <gmaxwell> Like, no description should ever mention "someone else can find a block and you need to start over" since that strongly implies that you lost the work you did since the last block even if there is a pedantic reading "need to start over just like you start over after every failed hashing operation" :)
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2436 2014-03-17 23:08:13 <Belxjander> Doesn't t he client "restart" for every block hashing attempt regardless of anything else?
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2438 2014-03-17 23:08:59 <gmaxwell> yes. there is no progress. every hash is independant. And this is really important, it's why mining isn't a race where the fastest always wins.
2439 2014-03-17 23:09:00 johnsoft has joined
2440 2014-03-17 23:09:01 <maaku> Belxjander: not for every hash attempt
2441 2014-03-17 23:09:24 <maaku> it tries a few billion (trillion?) hashes before "starting over"
2442 2014-03-17 23:09:47 <maaku> but yeah, overloaded use of the word "start over"
2443 2014-03-17 23:10:03 <airbreather> like gmaxwell said... that's a pedantic reading, and it's getting more pedantic, especially if the original quote was aimed at the masses
2444 2014-03-17 23:10:50 <gmaxwell> maaku: it's starting over every operation if by starting over you mean losing the advantage of the work you already did. (as it's memoryless)
2445 2014-03-17 23:11:08 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2446 2014-03-17 23:11:42 <maaku> gmaxwell: yeah i see what you mean
2447 2014-03-17 23:11:51 shesek has joined
2448 2014-03-17 23:12:21 <gmaxwell> airbreather: it actually matters because a misunderstanding on this point— for example— contributes subtantially to causing miners to join the "largest" pool.
2449 2014-03-17 23:12:22 zenojis has joined
2450 2014-03-17 23:13:03 <airbreather> True.  it stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of statistics that's forgivable when it comes from people who aren't perceived as "in-the-know"
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2471 2014-03-17 23:24:34 <petertodd> gmaxwell: fwiw I have a running implementation of OP_NLOCKTIMEVERIFY somewhere that I can dredge up
2472 2014-03-17 23:24:46 rdymac has joined
2473 2014-03-17 23:24:48 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I may have even written the unittests
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2476 2014-03-17 23:25:21 <gmaxwell> petertodd: did you also reach the conclusion that its unconditionally safe?
2477 2014-03-17 23:25:28 one_zero has joined
2478 2014-03-17 23:25:31 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yup
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2482 2014-03-17 23:27:39 <Luke-Jr> .. unless you lock to some insane future date? :P
2483 2014-03-17 23:27:50 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: that's still safe for everyone else...
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2485 2014-03-17 23:28:07 <Luke-Jr> at least nlocktime txns stay out of the mempools/UTXOs/etc until their date has come
2486 2014-03-17 23:28:15 <gmaxwell> yea, I mean, it just an unspendable utxo at that point, and there are a lot of ways to create those today.
2487 2014-03-17 23:28:19 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: so can OP_NLOCKTIMEVERIFY ones
2488 2014-03-17 23:28:26 <Luke-Jr> you'd need to make sure these ones don't get accepted, but don't anti-DoS ban either
2489 2014-03-17 23:28:48 <gmaxwell> the spending transaction isn't valid the signature check would fail. But good point on the anti-dos.
2490 2014-03-17 23:28:52 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: for UTXO's, well, one big 'meh' from me given how easy it is to creat unspendable
2491 2014-03-17 23:29:03 <gmaxwell> since it would be a signature failure and we do dos ban on those now.
2492 2014-03-17 23:29:11 <gmaxwell> oh derp no it's not a good point.
2493 2014-03-17 23:29:16 <gmaxwell> it's fine to dos on them.
2494 2014-03-17 23:29:26 <Luke-Jr> ?
2495 2014-03-17 23:29:31 <gmaxwell> thats part of the whole point of making it an nlocktime test.
2496 2014-03-17 23:29:43 bbrian has joined
2497 2014-03-17 23:29:44 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: OP_NLOCKTIMEVERIFY checks _this_ transactions nlocktime. Not the blocktime.
2498 2014-03-17 23:29:47 <Luke-Jr> if my clock is an hour ahead, I don't want to get banned..
2499 2014-03-17 23:29:59 <Luke-Jr> eh?
2500 2014-03-17 23:30:05 <petertodd> gmaxwell: IIRC I noticed that, and made it just give some leeway re: clocks (or was it less leeway? one or the other)
2501 2014-03-17 23:30:07 <Luke-Jr> that's.. odd
2502 2014-03-17 23:30:21 <gmaxwell> well what peter might have implemented is not the same as what I suggest.
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2505 2014-03-17 23:30:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: lol, don't quote me on "I actually implemented that bit"
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2510 2014-03-17 23:30:54 <Luke-Jr> I guess it makes sense though
2511 2014-03-17 23:30:57 <gmaxwell> What I suggest is to just check the locktime on the transaction. "This transaction can't be spent except with a non-final transaction with a locktime >= foo"
2512 2014-03-17 23:30:59 <petertodd> and actually, no, there's no way i implemented mempool related anything, because come to think of it I definitely didn't change IsStandard()
2513 2014-03-17 23:31:04 <gmaxwell> and it avoids the layering violation.
2514 2014-03-17 23:31:21 <gmaxwell> in that the script still is uncondintionally valid or invalid without respect to the blockchain.
2515 2014-03-17 23:31:38 <petertodd> oh! actually that's good
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2517 2014-03-17 23:31:58 <petertodd> that's better than what I did which was to use reuse the transaction IsFinal() test
2518 2014-03-17 23:32:03 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, sorry this formulation was an idea I had last night... I think it's better than actually having a second check against the block time as you change _nothing_ but script.
2519 2014-03-17 23:32:20 <gmaxwell> no mempool changes, no reorg logic no nothing.. just script.
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2522 2014-03-17 23:32:59 <petertodd> easier to implement too because EvalScript() already has the transaction spending the txout - 95% of my patches changes were passing around height and blocktime's
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2524 2014-03-17 23:33:25 <gmaxwell> it doesn't even have to be a *VERIFY or a > check either, except that it's hard to make it a softfork change otherwise. :(
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2528 2014-03-17 23:33:49 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, it's just a new kind of checksig operation really. Just a test on the content of the spending txn.
2529 2014-03-17 23:34:02 <gmaxwell> I bet it can be done with 10 lines of code, not including the conditional activiation.
2530 2014-03-17 23:34:33 <petertodd> gmaxwell: very unusually this actually can be done with a new SIGHASH flag too
2531 2014-03-17 23:35:30 <gmaxwell> well except for the fact that CHECKSIG NOT would be a hardfork if you did.
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2534 2014-03-17 23:36:12 <gmaxwell> which is why it still has to be a >= OP_*VERIFY to be a softforking change. alas. but yes, it would logically fit as a checksig modifier.
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2540 2014-03-17 23:37:17 <petertodd> no, you hack checksig to look at a surrounding hashed pushdata in the script for the nLockTime if SIGHASH_NLOCKTIMEVERIFY is set (ugly, but that makes it hashed)
2541 2014-03-17 23:37:27 <gmaxwell> oh yea you could do that.
2542 2014-03-17 23:37:28 <petertodd> just doing it as a new opcode is probably easier to understand though
2543 2014-03-17 23:38:02 <gmaxwell> making OP_CHECKSIG into OP_CHECKSIGMAYBEVERIFY would be lame. :P
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2545 2014-03-17 23:38:15 <petertodd> heh, and the CHECKMULTISIG version is even uglier
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2551 2014-03-17 23:39:03 <gmaxwell> yea in any case just a OP_CHECKNLOCKVERIFY (probably a better name) that checks the transaction like checksig does, and peeks on the stack and compares the nlock and sequence... kind of a no brainer change.
2552 2014-03-17 23:39:06 <petertodd> so yeah, OP_NOP2 -> OP_NLOCKTIMEVERIFY, and make the code in EvalScript check the top item on the stack against txTo.nLockTime
2553 2014-03-17 23:39:17 <gmaxwell> has to check the sequence too.
2554 2014-03-17 23:39:36 <petertodd> right, nSequence so nLockTime actually does something
2555 2014-03-17 23:39:40 <gmaxwell> too bad that OP_PUSHNLOCK OP_PUSHSEQ are also hardforking. That would be spiffy.
2556 2014-03-17 23:39:55 <petertodd> well... it's not hardforking if you make altstack2 :P
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2558 2014-03-17 23:40:15 <gmaxwell> meh, at that point you make a P3SH.
2559 2014-03-17 23:40:18 <petertodd> indeed!
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2564 2014-03-17 23:41:12 <petertodd> I said it last, time, and I'll say it again: I think there's value in doing something really simple like OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY as the first "new opcode" for bitcoin/litecoin to go through the motions of all the testing that needs to be done
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2566 2014-03-17 23:42:04 <petertodd> similarly, it'd be useful to have a guaranteed non-mutable CHECKSIG type that hashes the scriptPubKey or something for those rare applications that absolutely must not have malleability (and can deal with the replay problem)
2567 2014-03-17 23:42:14 dnathe4th has joined
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2569 2014-03-17 23:42:25 <petertodd> either one makes a good candidate
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2572 2014-03-17 23:43:55 <gmaxwell> CHECKSIG is lame because you need to make it a VERIFY only unless you go the P3SH route.
2573 2014-03-17 23:44:08 <dnathe4th> Friends, I want to create a valid vanity address, just the address no private key needed, is there a formula to calculate the checksum needed to make a given ascii string a valid address? is there a closed solution possible?
2574 2014-03-17 23:44:15 <gmaxwell> If I were to redo checksig it woudl also not be a small change.
2575 2014-03-17 23:44:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: indeed
2576 2014-03-17 23:45:00 <gmaxwell> dnathe4th: there are instructions somemplace but I urge you to reconsider, sending coins to unredeemable addresses creates a disproportional perpetual burden on the network and it shouldn't be encouraged.
2577 2014-03-17 23:46:08 <petertodd> gmaxwell: having an architecture where it creates perpetual burden on the network is placing purpetual burden on the dev team...
2578 2014-03-17 23:46:44 <heipa> so this mallible thing in reality is small issue?
2579 2014-03-17 23:46:53 <petertodd> heipa: for most use-cases yes
2580 2014-03-17 23:47:20 funky has joined
2581 2014-03-17 23:47:25 <heipa> it seems
2582 2014-03-17 23:47:38 <heipa> mtgox simply exadurated it
2583 2014-03-17 23:47:53 <heipa> as all other services and btc itself works fine
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2585 2014-03-17 23:48:58 <justanotheruser> heipa: It's like saying the USD is flawed because you implemented made your ATM give more money to anyone who crossed out the "6" in "$60 withdrawn" from the receipt
2586 2014-03-17 23:49:11 <heipa> yes
2587 2014-03-17 23:50:51 <heipa> maybe development team can simply make statement saying we checked the issue and its fine
2588 2014-03-17 23:51:00 <heipa> something to that extent
2589 2014-03-17 23:51:15 nessence has joined
2590 2014-03-17 23:51:25 <dnathe4th> gmaxwell: fair, but theoretically there is a closed form for it? Or did whoever figured out the 1bitcoineater address just get lucky?
2591 2014-03-17 23:51:28 <heipa> as online many people maybe trying to fix thing that is not required fixing in a first place?
2592 2014-03-17 23:51:39 <petertodd> heipa: they did - anyway this is OT here really for being old news
2593 2014-03-17 23:51:46 <heipa> ok
2594 2014-03-17 23:51:57 <heipa> just i read discussion now
2595 2014-03-17 23:52:05 <heipa> :)
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2597 2014-03-17 23:52:51 <justanotheruser> dnathe4th: it doesn't require any luck to get that address
2598 2014-03-17 23:53:14 <petertodd> dnathe4th: just get a copy of python-bitcoinlib, and modify the CBase58Data class to disable the checksum check and regenerate the right one. then just give it your desired address
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2601 2014-03-17 23:54:32 <dnathe4th> At this point i'm less interested in the result, and more interested in the math behind it, I can't wrap my head around getting the right 20 byte payload (to calc the checksum from) to arrive at a desired base58 number
2602 2014-03-17 23:54:52 <kadoban> dnathe4th: in other words, yes it's quite easy, as long as you don't care if you can ever use it in any useful way
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2604 2014-03-17 23:55:06 <dnathe4th> ah hmm
2605 2014-03-17 23:55:24 <dnathe4th> i will see what python-bitcoinlib says, thanks
2606 2014-03-17 23:55:38 <justanotheruser> dnathe4th: between step 6 and 9 there is no luck. Generate "hash" for step 6 that will give you that address https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_version_1_Bitcoin_addresses
2607 2014-03-17 23:55:39 <petertodd> dnathe4th: no math involved - you give it your desired text, tell it "go decode this", and then calculate whatever checksum that text/data resulted in
2608 2014-03-17 23:55:59 <heipa> the curve is used by btc is secp256k1 ?
2609 2014-03-17 23:56:04 <justanotheruser> The hash is just a made-up number to give them the desired result though
2610 2014-03-17 23:57:00 <sipa> heipa: yes
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2613 2014-03-17 23:58:00 <dnathe4th> justanotheruser: the problem I was having was taking those steps backwards, from 9 back to the result of 6, how does one go from 'BitcoinEaterAddressDontSend' to the 20 byte payload of the actually address
2614 2014-03-17 23:58:05 ninsei has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
2615 2014-03-17 23:58:18 <heipa> simple secp256k1 or with some extra params? :)
2616 2014-03-17 23:58:21 ninsei has joined
2617 2014-03-17 23:58:29 <heipa> nearly clear how its all works by now :)
2618 2014-03-17 23:58:52 <justanotheruser> dnathe4th: convert from base 58 to base 16 (hex) to go from 9 to 8
2619 2014-03-17 23:58:55 <kadoban> dnathe4th: that's just base58decode, no?
2620 2014-03-17 23:59:22 <dnathe4th> kadoban: not exactly, because it doesn't have the checksum at the end yet
2621 2014-03-17 23:59:36 <justanotheruser> dnathe4th: remove the last 8 bytes 8->7