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   3 2014-03-21 00:00:20 <miseria> "no hay formulas para saber el tiempo que requiere un cuerpo en pasar de caliente a frio sin matar el alma" bienvenidos: http://castroruben.com *temo_a_un_ser_sin_rival*
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   5 2014-03-21 00:02:05 <gmaxwell> dexX7: no, it's what the miners honestly believe it to be (minus their latency and plus any ntime rolling)
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  16 2014-03-21 00:12:21 <hno> Is the memorypool refilled with past transactions somehow when bitcoind is restarted, or does it only accumulate transactions announced to it after the restart?
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  21 2014-03-21 00:16:03 <Emcy_> dex block timestamps can be +-2 hours ish
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  25 2014-03-21 00:16:13 <Emcy_> dexX7
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  27 2014-03-21 00:17:00 <Emcy_> there can be no authoritative source of time for the bitcoin netowkr without giving it a huge centralisation
  28 2014-03-21 00:17:15 <Emcy_> though im surprised a node capable of making a block would be minutes out
  29 2014-03-21 00:17:41 <dexX7> + new block time has to be above the median time of the last 11.. but i was surprised nevertheless to actually see this
  30 2014-03-21 00:17:44 <Emcy_> most of them have the OS keeping time from some ntp server id guess
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 109 2014-03-21 01:05:37 <sipa> ;;later tell gavinandresen I've made some comments on your optimizing block broadcast gist https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/9603614
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 131 2014-03-21 01:18:30 <SenseiV183> Got experience compiling the latest 0.9.0?  I need some help please.  Details here:  http://pastebin.com/5Ak2n17c
 132 2014-03-21 01:21:38 <Luke-Jr> SenseiV183: this is not #how-to-use-linux
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 141 2014-03-21 01:29:12 <lianj> lunix halp
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 153 2014-03-21 01:44:09 <SenseiV183> I wish the github bitcoin master branch had a sidebar link with build instructions.  The help files within the source refer to other files not existing.  There seems to be no makefiles included.
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 156 2014-03-21 01:46:08 <justanotheruser> SenseiV183: there is a makefile in src
 157 2014-03-21 01:46:55 <SenseiV183> Why isn't there a mafefile.unix?
 158 2014-03-21 01:47:07 <justanotheruser> SenseiV183: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/18255/how-to-compile-bitcoin-qt-from-github-source-on-arch-linux
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 161 2014-03-21 01:48:36 <SenseiV183> That's exactly the last thing I tried before I came here to this channel lol.
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 163 2014-03-21 01:49:11 <justanotheruser> What was your error?
 164 2014-03-21 01:50:06 <SenseiV183> I'm getting to that.  Doing all over agin.
 165 2014-03-21 01:50:32 <lianj> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-unix.md
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 172 2014-03-21 01:54:49 <SenseiV183> justanotheruser, Here's the output http://pastebin.com/GhtYqhwH
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 175 2014-03-21 01:56:34 <justanotheruser> SenseiV183: please try this https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-unix.md
 176 2014-03-21 01:58:12 <SenseiV183> justanotheruser, Ahhhh!
 177 2014-03-21 01:58:32 <SenseiV183> justanotheruser, This is what I was looking for.
 178 2014-03-21 01:58:51 <SenseiV183> That's looks like somewhere to start, I'll try that.
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 209 2014-03-21 02:21:23 <SenseiV183> justanotheruser, What I'm concerned about is using the --enable-hardening option with ./configure and on an Amd64 processor where a library was not compiled with -fPIC, this will cause an error.  (Bottom of link you sent).
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 212 2014-03-21 02:23:01 <justanotheruser> SenseiV183: I have no idea about those details. I just followed the instructions (which might not be safe). I would wait for a coredev, or someone more informed than me to answer.
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 216 2014-03-21 02:25:51 <SenseiV183> It's only extra protection if a hacker is already crawling around your computer that they won't be able to maliciously alter the executable file.  However if an attacker has access to that daemon that is not good at all hehehe.
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 218 2014-03-21 02:27:34 <SenseiV183> justanotheruser, configure: error: Found Berkeley DB other than 4.8, required for portable wallets (--with-incompatible-bdb to ignore)
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 226 2014-03-21 02:29:32 <justanotheruser> SenseiV183: Did you install ldb in the way they described? for other Ubuntu & Debian:
 227 2014-03-21 02:29:47 * SenseiV183 is away: On the phone.
 228 2014-03-21 02:29:49 <justanotheruser> (assuming you have a debain based distro)
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 234 2014-03-21 02:37:13 <bitladen> Hi Guys could electrum be used to receive bitcoins from multiple addresses on a cold storage?
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 246 2014-03-21 02:50:41 <SenseiV183> justanotheruser, I don't know when the database was installed.  I'm going to have to research what I've got.  And Thank You.
 247 2014-03-21 02:51:10 <justanotheruser> SenseiV183: try installing the versions they have. No problem.
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 249 2014-03-21 02:53:50 <SenseiV183> justanotheruser, I'm more interested at this point in figuring out first if the Berkeley DB I have installed is for another program and what will get broken and how to know that?
 250 2014-03-21 02:55:57 <SenseiV183> I also know that Luke-Jr has a point, this is not a linux how to channel so hold off on more advice for me while I do some of my own research.  I appreciate your help.
 251 2014-03-21 02:56:23 <justanotheruser> SenseiV183: sure
 252 2014-03-21 02:57:14 <Luke-Jr> reminder: all the pre-0.9 build instructions are wrong now
 253 2014-03-21 02:57:39 <SenseiV183> I'm having a cigarette break from it
 254 2014-03-21 02:57:40 <Luke-Jr> 0.9 is just a standard *nix build
 255 2014-03-21 02:59:43 <SenseiV183> Luke-Jr, *nix rocks!  Why pay Microsoft and Apple ;)
 256 2014-03-21 03:01:44 askmike has joined
 257 2014-03-21 03:01:56 <SenseiV183> Infact the only reason I (need) Windows at all is because the GoPro Hero 2 camera I have to do a firmware update they only make Windows and Apple applications for updating camera firmware.  I'm afraid to wine that out and rish crash and brick the camera...
 258 2014-03-21 03:02:32 <Luke-Jr> wait, you're trying to compile on *Windows*?
 259 2014-03-21 03:02:44 <SenseiV183> No
 260 2014-03-21 03:04:29 <SenseiV183> Ubuntu Studio - Saucy Salamander (While I'm still using it)  I will eventually this year switch to Either Gentoo, Arch, Slackware, Xubuntu or even LFS!
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 267 2014-03-21 03:15:08 <SenseiV183> I just did a "getconf ARG_MAX" from my shell and it returned 2097152 Wow!  With that many characters available on the command line it makes you wonder why more people don't use *nix's ";" command line operator to string together all the getting the right dependencies and put it a single block to copy and paste.  :)
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 273 2014-03-21 03:16:55 <SenseiV183> ;;ticker
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 275 2014-03-21 03:17:06 <gribble> Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 579.3, Best ask: 582.0, Bid-ask spread: 2.70000, Last trade: 582.0, 24 hour volume: 10099.82998632, 24 hour low: 578.1, 24 hour high: 606.44, 24 hour vwap: 0
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 282 2014-03-21 03:23:25 <melik> hi everyone; i recently upgraded to bitcoind 0.9
 283 2014-03-21 03:23:37 <SenseiV183> justanotheruser, Are you on the mailing list?
 284 2014-03-21 03:23:41 <melik> i think my heights are messed up :/
 285 2014-03-21 03:23:51 <melik> i am polling for block height 546 (000000005a4ded781e667e06ceefafb71410b511fe0d5adc3e5a27ecbec34ae6)
 286 2014-03-21 03:24:12 <melik> and its returning as block height 5 :s
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 288 2014-03-21 03:24:50 <melik> ergh, sorry; it also brings back an incorrect hash.. i'll provide a pastebin of the output
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 291 2014-03-21 03:27:47 <melik> i apologize gentlemen, i am an idiot :]
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 309 2014-03-21 03:47:51 <atweiden> does bitpay have an irc presence?
 310 2014-03-21 03:48:13 <atweiden> trying to improve bitcore insight systemd service https://github.com/atweiden/pkgbuilds/blob/master/insight-bitcore-git/insight.service
 311 2014-03-21 03:48:16 <Luke-Jr> not really, beyond jgarzik
 312 2014-03-21 03:49:06 <copumpkin> oh nice, I like these new coin control features
 313 2014-03-21 03:49:17 <copumpkin> kudos to whomever put them in
 314 2014-03-21 03:50:58 <Luke-Jr> copumpkin: unfortunately, I think the original author is long since gone and gave up on contributing :/
 315 2014-03-21 03:51:39 <Luke-Jr> (he originally wrote it for 0.5 around 2012 Mar)
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 324 2014-03-21 03:59:40 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, he left, but, JFYI you can point those people to #bitcore
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 346 2014-03-21 04:20:47 <copumpkin> Luke-Jr: who's that?
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 351 2014-03-21 04:24:10 <Luke-Jr> copumpkin: coderrr
 352 2014-03-21 04:24:46 <Luke-Jr> copumpkin: actually, 2011 Jun: http://coderrr.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/patching-the-bitcoin-client-to-make-it-more-anonymous/
 353 2014-03-21 04:24:55 <SenseiV183> justanotheruser, How do I go about becoming a gitian compiler?  I found Berkeley 4.8 @ oracle.  I would be interested in joining the community and being a gitian builder to build and sign packages That sounds cool.  Helping stop people from putting spammy and malicious things in FOSS.
 354 2014-03-21 04:26:01 <justanotheruser> SenseiV183: A gitian compiler being someone who compiles from git?
 355 2014-03-21 04:26:13 <justanotheruser> Anyways, the unix readme includes the name of the package
 356 2014-03-21 04:26:32 VossArtesian has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
 357 2014-03-21 04:26:56 <SenseiV183> justanotheruser, check this out http://gitian.org/
 358 2014-03-21 04:27:59 melik has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 359 2014-03-21 04:28:20 <justanotheruser> SenseiV183: what is the advantage of this over just trusting gavin andersen or trusting that you will hear about it if he puts something malicious in the source?
 360 2014-03-21 04:29:22 <justanotheruser> also, join #bitcoin if we're going to discuss non-dev stuff
 361 2014-03-21 04:29:26 <SenseiV183> justanotheruser, The advantages would be if those developers need any help getting those packages out faster it would help the community.
 362 2014-03-21 04:30:09 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
 363 2014-03-21 04:30:17 <justanotheruser> I see
 364 2014-03-21 04:30:19 <SenseiV183> justanotheruser, The advantage for me would just be the feeling of contribution to support something I believe in and get me more in to development.
 365 2014-03-21 04:30:22 TheSeven has joined
 366 2014-03-21 04:30:42 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: why not just trust the Fed?
 367 2014-03-21 04:30:53 <venzen> hehe
 368 2014-03-21 04:31:14 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: the trust of gitian seems to be the same as the trust of gavin and the community
 369 2014-03-21 04:31:15 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: one of many answers: because trusting Gavin puts a high price on his life
 370 2014-03-21 04:31:24 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: what?
 371 2014-03-21 04:31:54 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: gitian makes it possible for multiple independent parties to produce the same binaries
 372 2014-03-21 04:32:08 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: no release of Bitcoin Core is ever published without at least 3 independent verifications
 373 2014-03-21 04:32:36 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: Why should I trust gitian over just compiling fro bitcoin.org then?
 374 2014-03-21 04:33:01 <justanotheruser> Oops, I mean compiling from github or downloading from bitcoin.org
 375 2014-03-21 04:33:01 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: many people don't want to compile themselves.
 376 2014-03-21 04:33:07 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: …
 377 2014-03-21 04:33:14 <SenseiV183> justanotheruser, If you read the gitian link, they compare the binaries built by everyone who submits them.
 378 2014-03-21 04:33:24 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: the downloads on bitcoin.org are made by gitian
 379 2014-03-21 04:33:28 <SenseiV183> p2p security
 380 2014-03-21 04:33:30 Soligor has quit (Quit: Soligor)
 381 2014-03-21 04:33:43 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: and if you don't verify them, then someone exploiting the webserver can quietly infect you with a trojan or wallet-stealer
 382 2014-03-21 04:33:52 Guest24658 has quit (Quit: Guest24658)
 383 2014-03-21 04:34:12 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: and no, you won't be able to blame bitcoin.org for your failure to verify them -.-
 384 2014-03-21 04:34:20 <justanotheruser> SenseiV183: I can either trust the bitcoin coredevs or I can trust the coredevs and anyone who does sybil
 385 2014-03-21 04:34:26 <SenseiV183> Luke-Jr, I want to know how to do that.  How to verify a bitcoin.org wallet build
 386 2014-03-21 04:34:48 tom_ has joined
 387 2014-03-21 04:35:00 <Luke-Jr> SenseiV183: PGP signatures are here https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs
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 390 2014-03-21 04:38:33 <SenseiV183> Luke-Jr, Thanks.
 391 2014-03-21 04:39:54 <SenseiV183> Oh getting sleepy.
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 416 2014-03-21 05:11:59 * jgarzik is feeling cheeky, and throws a flame in the direction of Counterparty, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=395761.msg5815887#msg5815887
 417 2014-03-21 05:12:31 <jgarzik> RE chain data storage
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 448 2014-03-21 05:50:16 <venzen> jgarzik: i'm not familiar with this issue and it's history. A cursory googl and look at page 1 of that thread shows Counterparty made the assumption that the BC is a public transaport/storage layer and set up their (what can one call it?) "brokerage" altcoin in late Dec 2013
 449 2014-03-21 05:50:56 <justanotheruser> I wish they did this in an altcoin that was merge mined
 450 2014-03-21 05:50:59 bitladen has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 451 2014-03-21 05:52:21 <venzen> what i don't understand is how they are accessing the BC from their XCP client? What makes this possible? Or are they only proposing?
 452 2014-03-21 05:53:04 <jgarzik> venzen, those questions are too basic for #bitcoin-dev
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 462 2014-03-21 06:03:54 <venzen> jgarzik: ok, i retract them
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 470 2014-03-21 06:11:44 <justanotheruser> Anyone want to review a brief whitepaper I wrote of a decentralized application related to Bitcoin I plan on making. Specifically I am looking for criticisms on why you think it won't work and anything I should change.
 471 2014-03-21 06:11:44 djcoin_ has joined
 472 2014-03-21 06:12:09 <justanotheruser> On a secondary point I would like to improve my writing style. Please PM me if you want to read it. It's 1500 words.
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 486 2014-03-21 06:28:56 <trumpertink> is there a minimum number of confirmations that bitcoind has to wait before it sign a transaction?
 487 2014-03-21 06:30:54 samson_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 488 2014-03-21 06:33:02 <Luke-Jr> trumpertink: uh, you won't get mined until it's signed
 489 2014-03-21 06:36:30 <trumpertink> ya i know. but to even sign a rawtransaction is there a min number of confs?
 490 2014-03-21 06:36:43 <trumpertink> i keep getting false when i try to sign a rawtx with 3 confs
 491 2014-03-21 06:36:55 Belxjander has joined
 492 2014-03-21 06:37:45 <trumpertink> (confirmations on the tx used for vout)
 493 2014-03-21 06:38:33 <shesek> you mean in?
 494 2014-03-21 06:38:36 <trumpertink> i mean vin
 495 2014-03-21 06:38:55 <trumpertink> ya
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 500 2014-03-21 06:43:05 <Luke-Jr> trumpertink: for rawtx there shouldn't be..
 501 2014-03-21 06:43:50 <trumpertink> how about minimum bitcoins being sent?
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 505 2014-03-21 06:46:50 <Luke-Jr> trumpertink: outputs need to have a minimum amount
 506 2014-03-21 06:47:38 <trumpertink> what's the min
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 509 2014-03-21 06:48:40 <trumpertink> i'm sending .01 that can't be to low
 510 2014-03-21 06:49:02 <trumpertink> or .005 with a .005 fee
 511 2014-03-21 06:49:14 <Luke-Jr> nah, it's something tiny
 512 2014-03-21 06:49:17 <Luke-Jr> like .000001
 513 2014-03-21 06:49:18 <trumpertink> this is on testnet btw
 514 2014-03-21 06:49:29 <Luke-Jr> debug.log might have info for you
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 531 2014-03-21 07:05:01 <Emcy> jgarzik it depends on the prospect of getting lazy poolops to add your chain for mergemine
 532 2014-03-21 07:05:19 <Emcy> its not really a defence if you didnt even try though
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 539 2014-03-21 07:16:31 <SenseiV183> after running autogen.sh it creats configure.  When I load configure in to gedit 3.8.3 it defaults to sh syntax highlighting and something is wrong with it because comments are not a consistent color.
 540 2014-03-21 07:18:44 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
 541 2014-03-21 07:19:28 <SenseiV183> http://pastebin.com/7pmqmnhL the configure script.
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 548 2014-03-21 07:22:33 <wumpus> SenseiV183: the syntax parsers of editors cannot handle the scaling issues involved with such a large and messy script as generated by GNU tools :-)
 549 2014-03-21 07:23:50 Guest94515 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 550 2014-03-21 07:24:38 <SenseiV183> wumpus, I compiled the Berkeley DB 4.8.3 from oracle and still get the error message about incompatible version.  Do I need to set environment variables for bdbpath and bdb48path?
 551 2014-03-21 07:25:11 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 552 2014-03-21 07:25:22 <wumpus> if you compiled it yourself you do need to point the configure script at the lib and include directory of BDB
 553 2014-03-21 07:25:32 <wumpus> otherwise it will only see your system's version
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 555 2014-03-21 07:27:03 <SenseiV183> Can you help me do that?  My location is ~/db-4.8.30
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 559 2014-03-21 07:30:18 <wumpus> I created an issue, I'm surprised we don't have this yet https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3921
 560 2014-03-21 07:30:35 <SenseiV183> I'll look and see what you created.
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 563 2014-03-21 07:31:19 <wumpus> anyway you can always override LDFLAGS and CFLAGS to find them manually, don't forget that you need to manualy specify optimization flags in that case ie: ./configure LDFLAGS="-L/path/to/libs" CPPFLAGS="-I/path/to/includes -O2"
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 566 2014-03-21 07:33:26 <SenseiV183> I like the issue you created.  Makes perfect sense.  BDB is @ like version 6 or something ;)
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 576 2014-03-21 07:46:54 <wumpus> so, how do we allocate the weight for gitian-downloader sigs? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3907
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 594 2014-03-21 08:05:15 <wumpus> oops I forgot pushing my gitian sigs
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 597 2014-03-21 08:06:54 <SenseiV183> wumpus, I'm guessing that it would be LDFLAGS=/home/shaun/db-4.8.30/clib/ CPPFLAGS=/home/shaun/db-4.8.30/dbinc/    and do I need quotes around the paths?
 598 2014-03-21 08:07:15 <wumpus> if there are no spaces in the paths you don't strictly need quotes (but they don't hurt)
 599 2014-03-21 08:07:20 <wumpus> eh
 600 2014-03-21 08:07:49 <wumpus> more like LDFLAGS="-L/home/shaun/db-4.8.30/clib/" CPPFLAGS="-I/home/shaun/db-4.8.30/dbinc/"
 601 2014-03-21 08:08:03 <wumpus> and don't forget passing the optimization flag too, so
 602 2014-03-21 08:08:06 <wumpus> more like LDFLAGS="-L/home/shaun/db-4.8.30/clib/" CPPFLAGS="-I/home/shaun/db-4.8.30/dbinc/ -O2"
 603 2014-03-21 08:08:21 <SenseiV183> do I need to point any flag to the db-4.8.30 directory itself?
 604 2014-03-21 08:08:38 <wumpus> manually specifying LDFLAGS/CFLAGS drops the standard optimization flags, so otherwise you get a non-optimized build which is usually unpleasant
 605 2014-03-21 08:09:15 <wumpus> no, it needs only includes and libraries to be able to link against it
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 607 2014-03-21 08:09:45 <SenseiV183> is the "-L -02" the optimization?
 608 2014-03-21 08:10:05 <wumpus> no
 609 2014-03-21 08:10:08 <wumpus> the -O2 is
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 611 2014-03-21 08:11:02 <SenseiV183> ./configure LDFLAGS="-L/home/shaun/db-4.8.30/clib/" CPPFLAGS="-I/home/shaun/db-4.8.30/dbinc/ -O2"
 612 2014-03-21 08:11:39 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 613 2014-03-21 08:12:20 <SenseiV183> ./configure --enable-hardening LDFLAGS="-L/home/shaun/db-4.8.30/clib/" CPPFLAGS="-I/home/shaun/db-4.8.30/dbinc/ -O2"
 614 2014-03-21 08:12:43 <SenseiV183> is --enable-hardening in the right place?
 615 2014-03-21 08:12:46 smash has joined
 616 2014-03-21 08:12:49 <wumpus> yes
 617 2014-03-21 08:13:07 <SenseiV183> how to specify build without upnp?
 618 2014-03-21 08:14:05 paveljanik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 619 2014-03-21 08:14:22 <wumpus> don't be so lazy, please check the configure --help first before asking here
 620 2014-03-21 08:14:23 coeus_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 621 2014-03-21 08:14:27 <warren> wumpus: hey.  where did you see the libstdc++ compat problem?
 622 2014-03-21 08:14:38 <warren> wumpus: at least for Debian and RHEL6 it seems OK with your current binary.
 623 2014-03-21 08:14:42 <SenseiV183> wumpus, Thank you.
 624 2014-03-21 08:14:51 <wumpus> warren: my current binary is fine, it's 100% statically linked
 625 2014-03-21 08:14:58 <warren> ooh
 626 2014-03-21 08:15:25 <SenseiV183> wumpus, You helped me a lot.  I didn' t realize the configure script had help lol.  Thanks so much.
 627 2014-03-21 08:15:26 <wumpus> warren: but I was warning @theuni, he wants to try something with wrapping specific glibc symbols which may not be enough as the libc++ of Ubuntu 12.04 is *also* newer 
 628 2014-03-21 08:15:29 <cheetah2> gentlemen how long does ir take to understand bitcoin
 629 2014-03-21 08:15:36 <wumpus> SenseiV183: no problem
 630 2014-03-21 08:15:39 <cheetah2> weeks?
 631 2014-03-21 08:15:41 <warren> I know for a fact that libstdc++ supports linking to a particular symbol version, because I asked for this feature while at Red Hat for a particular problem we had back then.
 632 2014-03-21 08:15:43 <cheetah2> months?
 633 2014-03-21 08:15:59 <warren> this was like 6 years ago
 634 2014-03-21 08:16:07 <Adlai> cheetah2: nine pages... https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf‎
 635 2014-03-21 08:16:22 <cheetah2> no i mean the program
 636 2014-03-21 08:16:25 <wumpus> cheetah2: well if you're as slow as me, it can take four years and you still don't get the whole thing ;)
 637 2014-03-21 08:17:03 <cheetah2> as in being able to create my own software
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 639 2014-03-21 08:17:29 <wumpus> warren: well it may be possible that way, but in any case my static build is the sledgehammer approach: it should work on (almost) any x86 linux imaginable
 640 2014-03-21 08:17:57 <warren> with the loss of ASLR, which is highly undesireable for the standard distro.
 641 2014-03-21 08:18:18 <warren> my gitian build on lucid seems to work great everywhere
 642 2014-03-21 08:18:22 <wumpus> only on 32-bit AFAIK, it seems that 64 bit supports -pie and -static (at least it doesn't produce an invalid executable)
 643 2014-03-21 08:18:30 <warren> oh
 644 2014-03-21 08:18:34 <warren> in that case, screw it
 645 2014-03-21 08:18:51 <wumpus> (I haven't checked whether it actually randomized anything, mind you)
 646 2014-03-21 08:18:53 <warren> although bitcoind only isn't the friendliest
 647 2014-03-21 08:19:08 <warren> that's important to check
 648 2014-03-21 08:19:13 <wumpus> it's what the serious people with stable linux distros want, they don't care about the GUI
 649 2014-03-21 08:19:36 <warren> well, let's see what cfields does
 650 2014-03-21 08:19:48 <wumpus> stable linux is used on servers
 651 2014-03-21 08:22:37 <wumpus> well, someone who uses the damn thing can check, I don't feel like spending days on this
 652 2014-03-21 08:23:15 <anton000> lol
 653 2014-03-21 08:23:21 Coincidental has joined
 654 2014-03-21 08:23:24 <anton000> thanks again wumps :)
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 656 2014-03-21 08:23:44 <SenseiV183> wumpus, configure: error: Found Berkeley DB other than 4.8, required for portable wallets (--with-incompatible-bdb to ignore)
 657 2014-03-21 08:24:04 <wumpus> SenseiV183: something must be wrong with the arguments then, check config.log
 658 2014-03-21 08:24:17 <SenseiV183> wumpus, ok
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 662 2014-03-21 08:27:54 <anton000> will try to see if we still got a slackware box up
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 666 2014-03-21 08:32:42 <wumpus> warren: a cursory test with printf("%p\n",&main) seems to show that ASLR doesn't work in 64 bit static executables either
 667 2014-03-21 08:33:09 <warren> grr
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 670 2014-03-21 08:33:34 <aynstein> anton000: I can deploy a fresh image real quick slackware 14.1?
 671 2014-03-21 08:33:39 <wumpus> but there is progress! we even get a nice error instead of an invalid executable: /usr/bin/ld: /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.8/crtbeginT.o: relocation R_X86_64_32 against `__TMC_END__' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC
 672 2014-03-21 08:34:12 <anton000> aynstein: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3914
 673 2014-03-21 08:34:19 <wumpus> the configure script catches this and hence removes -pie automatically, hence I don't need to do anything special for it in gitian
 674 2014-03-21 08:34:36 <wumpus> but the end result is the same :(
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 676 2014-03-21 08:36:15 <warren> wumpus: I hope cfields comes up with something.  Not sure what he's doing for work right now.
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 679 2014-03-21 08:36:58 <aynstein> so just build it on a slackware 32 and see if it craps out?
 680 2014-03-21 08:37:33 <wumpus> aynstein: building should be fine, it's just that it's hard to make a portable executable on linux
 681 2014-03-21 08:37:37 <aynstein> or use a min gcc lib?
 682 2014-03-21 08:37:50 <warren> wumpus: at least for 0.9 the binary seems to be totally fine
 683 2014-03-21 08:37:53 <aynstein> oh, i see now
 684 2014-03-21 08:37:56 <warren> wumpus: built on lucid
 685 2014-03-21 08:38:10 <wumpus> warren: yes, but as mentioned before, downgrading the gitian VM is not an option
 686 2014-03-21 08:38:31 <SenseiV183> wumpus, I checked the config file and the word error occurs many times.  Also Ubuntu/Linaro occurs many times, strange because I'm running Ubuntu Studio - Saucy Salamander and here's that log file http://pastebin.com/NHrUwK9C
 687 2014-03-21 08:38:38 <warren> wumpus: I'm sorry I didn't protest this earlier, I discovered this and noted it last year.
 688 2014-03-21 08:38:42 <wumpus> warren: of course that is possible, but we have a nice influx of gitian builders now, wouldn't want to scare them off by having them install three VM images...
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 690 2014-03-21 08:38:57 <warren> wumpus: it's a tiny amount of extra disk space, not a big deal
 691 2014-03-21 08:39:11 <wumpus> warren: it is a big deal IMO
 692 2014-03-21 08:39:39 <wumpus> some people are using virtualbox-based setups, it's not all as easy to switch them
 693 2014-03-21 08:39:44 <warren> well, if I noticed it a month or two ago we would have a symbol filtered build, we'll be fine after that.
 694 2014-03-21 08:40:39 <wumpus> warren: as I mentioned in another pull, disable FORTIFY_BUILD may be enough
 695 2014-03-21 08:40:52 <wumpus> warren: at least for the glibc symbols, the new used symbol has to do with the feature
 696 2014-03-21 08:41:21 <wumpus> unsure about the libc++ symbols
 697 2014-03-21 08:41:44 <wumpus> probably boost using some state-of-the-art c++ feature
 698 2014-03-21 08:42:08 <warren> shit
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 700 2014-03-21 08:42:28 <warren> might need to build boost with the same filtered symbols
 701 2014-03-21 08:42:35 <warren> yes, that's needed
 702 2014-03-21 08:42:46 <wumpus> 00000000      DF *UND*  00000000  GLIBC_2.15  __fdelt_chk    that's the GLIBC_2.15 symbol
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 704 2014-03-21 08:43:21 <wumpus> apart from that everything is <=GLIBC_2.13 IIRC
 705 2014-03-21 08:44:25 <warren> 2.13 isn't old enough
 706 2014-03-21 08:44:28 <warren> need 2.12
 707 2014-03-21 08:44:45 <warren> although RHEL6's glibc probably has backported things from newer glibc
 708 2014-03-21 08:44:48 <wumpus> objdump -T bitcoin-qt bitcoind bitcoin-cli |grep GLIBC_2.13 doesn't show anything either
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 711 2014-03-21 08:46:52 <wumpus> as for libc++ we use symbols from GLIBCXX_3.4 GLIBCXX_3.4.9 GLIBCXX_3.4.11 GLIBCXX_3.4.15
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 714 2014-03-21 08:48:39 <wumpus> it's strange that the person in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=522014.msg5787094#msg5787094  mentions an error about GLIBC_2.14 as well... we don't even use any 2.14 symbols according to objdump -T :-/
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 716 2014-03-21 08:49:58 <wumpus> GLIBCXX_3.4.15 std::__detail::_List_node_base::_M_hook(std::__detail::_List_node_base*)     
 717 2014-03-21 08:50:00 <wumpus> GLIBCXX_3.4.15 std::out_of_range::~out_of_range()
 718 2014-03-21 08:50:07 <wumpus> GLIBCXX_3.4.15 std::__detail::_List_node_base::_M_unhook()
 719 2014-03-21 08:50:13 <wumpus> those are the new c++ symbols
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 722 2014-03-21 08:51:47 <wumpus> can we really convince g++ not to use them?
 723 2014-03-21 08:51:54 <warren> wumpus: http://glandium.org/blog/?p=1901  this looks useful
 724 2014-03-21 08:52:28 <wumpus> "Newer gcc, new problems" hah indeed
 725 2014-03-21 08:52:44 <wumpus> it even mentions the same symbols as I did
 726 2014-03-21 08:53:45 <wumpus> that hack they use to avoid the symbols looks scary though :(
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 729 2014-03-21 08:55:12 <wumpus> but yes it'd work
 730 2014-03-21 08:55:24 <wumpus> if you define the symbols yourself, the linker won't be asking for them anymore ...
 731 2014-03-21 08:55:29 <warren> hahaha
 732 2014-03-21 08:55:39 <warren> that can be a non-default --configure option
 733 2014-03-21 08:56:34 <wumpus> it's at a comparable level of evil with dropping ASLR
 734 2014-03-21 08:57:03 <Belxjander> ASLR?
 735 2014-03-21 08:57:21 <wumpus> (address space randomization, please read back a bit)
 736 2014-03-21 08:57:31 <Belxjander> ahhh
 737 2014-03-21 08:57:41 <Belxjander> scattering on  loading
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 739 2014-03-21 08:58:38 <wumpus> it's very brittle; what about compiling our own libstdc++ and glibc and linking against that? :p
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 743 2014-03-21 09:01:07 <wumpus> I'm sure there is an obvious reason such a simple solution won't work (bound to gcc/g++ version?)
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 788 2014-03-21 10:02:17 <aynstein> sorry, so you just want to see if the static runs as packaged on slackware right?
 789 2014-03-21 10:02:38 <aynstein> it does not.
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 833 2014-03-21 11:03:15 <wumpus> aynstein: what do you get for error?
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 842 2014-03-21 11:17:39 <asdf_> @jgarzik - how would you recommend a newcomer to the bitcoin codebase get started?
 843 2014-03-21 11:17:59 <asdf_> any canonical source of documentation on classes, namespaces, and the like? This appears to be out of date: http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=bitcoin-dev
 844 2014-03-21 11:19:36 <wumpus> asdf_: huh do you perhaps mean https://dev.visucore.com/bitcoin/doxygen/ ?
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 847 2014-03-21 11:20:09 <wumpus> (should be up to date daily with master, but sometimes the script hangs)
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 851 2014-03-21 11:24:01 <asdf_> doh. Yes.
 852 2014-03-21 11:24:10 <asdf_> that's for version 0.9.0
 853 2014-03-21 11:24:19 airq has joined
 854 2014-03-21 11:24:20 <cbeams_> wumpus: fwiw, that is the first time I've seen a link to the docs at visucore. A Google site: search against the wiki for 'visucore' shows zero results. But I just git grepped the repo and did find the link in doc/README.md.
 855 2014-03-21 11:24:40 <cbeams_> ... and in any case, good to know, thanks!
 856 2014-03-21 11:24:49 <wumpus> asdf_: .. 0.9.0 is very recent right? :p (it's actually not 0.9.0 but 0.9.99/master, but the version number is shown wrong)
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 858 2014-03-21 11:24:58 <asdf_> i see
 859 2014-03-21 11:25:04 <asdf_> right
 860 2014-03-21 11:25:13 <asdf_> i thought it might be out of date due to that version update not reflecting
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 862 2014-03-21 11:25:25 <asdf_> any tips on where to start?
 863 2014-03-21 11:25:35 <wumpus> version should be updated in doc/Doxyfile as well...
 864 2014-03-21 11:25:37 <asdf_> just look at some tickets and dive in, i guess
 865 2014-03-21 11:25:49 <asdf_> but i'd like to get some kind of overview
 866 2014-03-21 11:25:52 <wumpus> cbeams_: yes, for some reason its not very well linked
 867 2014-03-21 11:26:01 <asdf_> sort of like Google's "life cycle of a search query"
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 872 2014-03-21 11:26:54 <asdf_> is there an overview of the codebase in terms of which functions, subroutines, etcetera are called for different tasks, like downloading the blockchain, computing proof of work, sending txs to network, etc.?
 873 2014-03-21 11:27:00 <wumpus> did you see this bitcoin documentation initative?
 874 2014-03-21 11:27:22 <cbeams_> wumpus: to which to you refer?
 875 2014-03-21 11:28:37 <asdf_> Just googled "bitcoin documentation initiative" and don't see anything
 876 2014-03-21 11:28:37 <wumpus> http://bitcoindev.us.to/en/developer-guide
 877 2014-03-21 11:29:18 <asdf_> wow
 878 2014-03-21 11:29:20 <asdf_> much thanks
 879 2014-03-21 11:29:22 <wumpus> asdf_: it's very now, so I wouldn't be surprised if google hasn't properly indexed it yet
 880 2014-03-21 11:29:25 <wumpus> new*
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 883 2014-03-21 11:29:42 <cbeams_> wumpus: Yeah, I did see that about a week ago when it was announced. Thanks for the reminder.
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 885 2014-03-21 11:29:52 <cbeams_> Who is working on that?
 886 2014-03-21 11:30:06 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 887 2014-03-21 11:30:24 <wumpus> quite a few people, see the links at the top
 888 2014-03-21 11:30:45 <wumpus> (the big yellow slab with "Contribute")
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 890 2014-03-21 11:31:38 <cbeams_> wumpus: joined the mailing list. thanks.
 891 2014-03-21 11:31:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: commented re: gitian weight
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 895 2014-03-21 11:32:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Most of the discussion is really in the IRC logs)
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 898 2014-03-21 11:33:00 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: so the conclusion of that was to give you a weight of 1? :p
 899 2014-03-21 11:33:15 <asdf_> wumpus: thanks very much. Any tips on build environment and whatnot
 900 2014-03-21 11:33:32 <asdf_> just standard C++ build environment? Do people use sx or libbitcoin very much?
 901 2014-03-21 11:33:57 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: anyhow that probably means aschildbach should set his to 1 as well
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 903 2014-03-21 11:35:05 <wumpus> asdf_: nope, I tend to avoid even looking at other bitcoin-related projects these days to avoid accusations of copying, especially after the btcd troll debacle
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 908 2014-03-21 11:37:05 <wumpus> (for reference, some idiot claimed that we 'copied over most features from btcd' in 0.9, even though we were almost the first to get the commit in every time, and it's Go versus C++ in a completely different source structure so copying is far from trivial :p)
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 913 2014-03-21 11:38:22 <asdf_> i see
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 915 2014-03-21 11:38:31 <asdf_> but isn't it good to copy over features
 916 2014-03-21 11:38:42 <asdf_> wumpus: isn't it good to copy over features for compatibility?
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 918 2014-03-21 11:39:08 <wumpus> well normally in open source it is, but the bitcoin community is very hostile in some regards
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 920 2014-03-21 11:40:03 <asdf_> i've been looking through the codebase and there are definitely some hackish-seeming things, e.g.:
 921 2014-03-21 11:40:04 <asdf_> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L1745
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 923 2014-03-21 11:40:41 <asdf_> the main.cpp file is a lot less clean as a top-level file than i would have anticipated
 924 2014-03-21 11:40:55 <asdf_> (i'm sure there is a good reason for it all, just trying to feel my way around :))
 925 2014-03-21 11:40:57 <wumpus> main.cpp should really be split up
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 927 2014-03-21 11:41:08 <wumpus> then again, there are always zillions of more pressing issues
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 931 2014-03-21 11:42:55 <wumpus> I always suggest surpressing feelings of hacky/uglyness when reading a new codebase and focusing on understanding
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 965 2014-03-21 12:02:14 <wumpus> trying to generate a doxygen with call(er) graphs now, I think it's going to be too huge to upload tho :)
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 968 2014-03-21 12:03:24 <wumpus> gah I should really exclude leveldb
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 980 2014-03-21 12:08:35 <jouke> michagogo|cloud: you there? I did make-base-vm, but I am unsure on what to do next
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 998 2014-03-21 12:19:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|13:32:00 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: so the conclusion of that was to give you a weight of 1? :p <-- Yes, but I don't remember what the reasons were at the time.
 999 2014-03-21 12:20:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: what's the btcd troll debacle?
1000 2014-03-21 12:20:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jouke: try the sanity check from the gitian readme
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1002 2014-03-21 12:21:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: oh, ignore that question
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1008 2014-03-21 12:23:35 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: some reddit thread, I can look it up if you're interested, it may be better to just ignore it, but I take accusations of plagiarism really serious
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1016 2014-03-21 12:25:43 <jouke> michagogo|cloud: should I have create a base-vm with --arch i386 ?
1017 2014-03-21 12:26:13 <wumpus> jouke: you should have both, one with --arch i386 and without , but with suite 'precise'
1018 2014-03-21 12:27:07 <jouke> wumpus: I can't find anything on "precise" in the README?
1019 2014-03-21 12:28:12 <wumpus> fuck
1020 2014-03-21 12:28:37 <wumpus> jouke: it isn't, but it should be
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1022 2014-03-21 12:29:55 <wumpus> by default it creates lucid images, which are useless for building recent versions of bitcoin
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1024 2014-03-21 12:30:26 <wumpus> should really be:  bin/make-base-vm --suite precise --arch i386 and   bin/make-base-vm --suite precise --arch amd64
1025 2014-03-21 12:30:35 <jouke> ok
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1029 2014-03-21 12:33:19 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: what are rotating addresses, and why do they not use the best-practice of pay-to-pubkey-hash? :/
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1031 2014-03-21 12:34:17 <aschildbach> That's addresses that are replaced by new adresses, for example because of a RNG bug that affected all addresses generated on Android devices pre August 2013.
1032 2014-03-21 12:34:43 <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3926/files
1033 2014-03-21 12:34:51 <aschildbach> I'm not sure why it's "best practice"
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1035 2014-03-21 12:35:53 <aschildbach> Probably hearn knows.
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1038 2014-03-21 12:36:19 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: p2pkh is a best practice to protect against ECDSA weaknesses
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1042 2014-03-21 12:41:56 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, aschildbach: presumably rotating addresses are simply a new address each payment?  That is best practice, and it would be good for Bitcoin Wallet to finally become secure.
1043 2014-03-21 12:42:13 <jgarzik> The current practice of non-rotation really kills privacy
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1045 2014-03-21 12:42:50 <aschildbach> jgarzik: No, we're referring with "HD wallet" to what you're talking about
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1048 2014-03-21 12:43:59 <Luke-Jr> eh, HD wallet refers to a particular method of generating keypairs, not this :P
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1054 2014-03-21 12:46:20 <aschildbach> yes, generating keys (and thus addresses) with the prime usecase of never using an address twice
1055 2014-03-21 12:46:41 <aschildbach> its not rotating any addresses however
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1059 2014-03-21 12:51:02 <wumpus> doxygen docs now include call graphs and caller graphs in svg format: https://dev.visucore.com/bitcoin/doxygen/
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1062 2014-03-21 12:52:34 <BTC-3> hi....
1063 2014-03-21 12:52:53 <BTC-3> any gui dev's around ? :-)
1064 2014-03-21 12:53:18 <BTC-3> got a little "bug" with the win core client gui
1065 2014-03-21 12:54:52 <BTC-3> if I mark a outgoing transaction  (with red amount number) the the Tranaction tab/ table  it get blue => OK ..
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1068 2014-03-21 12:55:59 <wumpus> how is that a bug?
1069 2014-03-21 12:56:19 <BTC-3> if I now loose focus to an other Application the blue bachground get's back to normal, but the  amount (  eg -10) in now colored back   .. even it it negative
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1071 2014-03-21 12:56:39 <BTC-3> is this a "feature"? ...  or a bug ? :-)
1072 2014-03-21 12:56:54 <wumpus> neither, really
1073 2014-03-21 12:57:28 <wumpus> the focus color overrides any other colors in a row
1074 2014-03-21 12:57:54 <wumpus> that's just how qt works by default, it's more a matter of taste than anything
1075 2014-03-21 12:58:23 <optimator_> i'm having a problem compiling 0.9 on centos. I've downloaded the latest openssl and compiled it with ecc suport, but i don't think the bitcoind build sees those libraries. any idea how to make the build see those libraries?
1076 2014-03-21 12:59:15 <wumpus> try setting SSL_CFLAGS / SSL_LIBS
1077 2014-03-21 12:59:40 <optimator_> i see that in the Makefile but I'm not sure how to use it. any references?
1078 2014-03-21 12:59:41 <BTC-3> if the client looses fokus, you could not anymore see with line is maked
1079 2014-03-21 12:59:50 <BTC-3> marked
1080 2014-03-21 13:00:08 <BTC-3> at leat if you mark one with a grey background
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1082 2014-03-21 13:00:36 <BTC-3> if it is a incomming one, nothing is to see anymore about the seletion
1083 2014-03-21 13:00:40 <wumpus> optimator_: ./configure SSL_CFLAGS="-I/path/to/includes" SSL_LIBS="-L/path/to/libraries"
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1085 2014-03-21 13:01:06 <BTC-3> if  it is an outgoing one, it now has back in sted of read amount numbers ... ....
1086 2014-03-21 13:01:19 <optimator_> wumpus:ty
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1088 2014-03-21 13:01:56 <BTC-3> only a little optical flaw .... but only if one of the gui dev's does matter it ;-)
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1096 2014-03-21 13:04:53 <wumpus> BTC-3: really the only way you're going to get something like this addressed is by fixing it yourself, we're way understaffed to worry about small glitches on specific OSes
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1105 2014-03-21 13:10:09 <BTC-3> wumpus:  Thanks  ....  I'll have a look at the code ;-)
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1107 2014-03-21 13:12:04 <jgarzik> dammit github, stop sucking
1108 2014-03-21 13:12:25 <arubi> I'm having timeouts too, if that's what you mean
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1117 2014-03-21 13:13:43 <wumpus> yep it's definitely unusable right now...
1118 2014-03-21 13:14:12 <jgarzik> and here I was about to dive into userland NFS, with nfs-ganesha.  Poop.
1119 2014-03-21 13:14:31 <jgarzik> It would be fun to export each block or TX as a file in a filesystem.
1120 2014-03-21 13:15:01 <wumpus> bitcoinfs
1121 2014-03-21 13:15:27 <Imbue> lol
1122 2014-03-21 13:15:48 <Imbue> btcfs; just to annoy those who use font where c ~= r
1123 2014-03-21 13:16:05 <arubi> haha ;D
1124 2014-03-21 13:16:08 <wumpus> as FUSE module?
1125 2014-03-21 13:16:20 <jgarzik> no, as an NFS mount
1126 2014-03-21 13:16:31 <jgarzik> <jgarzik> and here I was about to dive into userland NFS, with nfs-ganesha.
1127 2014-03-21 13:16:41 <wumpus> I don't get it, why would you need NFS?
1128 2014-03-21 13:17:05 <jgarzik> wumpus, it is functionally the same as FUSE, but works over a network, works in a distributed fashion, ...
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1131 2014-03-21 13:17:36 <jgarzik> isn't Linux specific...
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1133 2014-03-21 13:18:01 <wumpus> it's also distributed if everyone mounts it locally :-)
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1158 2014-03-21 13:49:05 <wumpus> github is still under ddos attack: https://status.github.com/
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1179 2014-03-21 14:10:35 <diabl0z> hey jgarzik, how comes
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1268 2014-03-21 15:39:30 <etotheipi_> hey, do we have an "address" encoding for plain multi-sig transactions?
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1272 2014-03-21 15:42:27 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, <shrug>  Just don't use them.  There is even an active proposal to make bare multisig (non-P2SH) non-standard.
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1275 2014-03-21 15:42:46 <etotheipi_> jgarzik: why?
1276 2014-03-21 15:42:54 <etotheipi_> that's crazy talk
1277 2014-03-21 15:43:02 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, 99% of current uses are data storage, not actual multisigi
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1279 2014-03-21 15:43:20 <etotheipi_> well, I'm not talking about current use cases... I'm talking about using multi-sig for what it was intended for
1280 2014-03-21 15:43:44 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, P2SH multisig works for that
1281 2014-03-21 15:43:45 <etotheipi_> escrow transactions and one-off multi-sig tx should not use P2SH
1282 2014-03-21 15:43:49 <flammit> you can achieve the same effect by using the P2SH multisig
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1284 2014-03-21 15:44:08 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, sure they should
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1287 2014-03-21 15:44:31 <etotheipi_> of course I *could* use P2SH, but that complicates things and makes it fragile, since you are required to backup extra data to find your P2SH coins
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1290 2014-03-21 15:45:22 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, that logic leads to a loss of privacy and early pubkey reveal
1291 2014-03-21 15:45:32 <etotheipi_> uh... that's my decision to make
1292 2014-03-21 15:45:37 <etotheipi_> the keys will be revealed eventually
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1294 2014-03-21 15:45:45 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, yes
1295 2014-03-21 15:45:59 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, at spend time, like today's pay-to-pubkey
1296 2014-03-21 15:46:03 <etotheipi_> for linked wallets, P2SH is 100% the way to go
1297 2014-03-21 15:46:48 <etotheipi_> for random/one-off transactions between parties for which I don't store the public keys or have no way to associate them with mine, I will use multi-sig for robustness
1298 2014-03-21 15:47:08 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, the long term storage costs for bare multisig are higher, few use bare multisig for their intended purpose, and they are being actively abused.
1299 2014-03-21 15:47:21 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, huge output in UTXO versus tiny one
1300 2014-03-21 15:47:22 <etotheipi_> jgarzik: that doesn't mean they should be disallowed
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1302 2014-03-21 15:47:40 <etotheipi_> the same could've been said about Bitcoin itself with drug dealing
1303 2014-03-21 15:47:43 <hearn> long term storage costs are lower
1304 2014-03-21 15:47:58 <hearn> it's the _short term_ costs that are higher (utxo db)
1305 2014-03-21 15:48:00 <etotheipi_> "well, it's only used for illegal activity right now, so the whole thing shoudl be banned"
1306 2014-03-21 15:48:15 <jgarzik> hearn, not true at all, when active utxo db is included, which is clearly is as an integral part of the system.
1307 2014-03-21 15:48:41 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, That's fine.  Rare miners  that like data spam can leave the option on.
1308 2014-03-21 15:48:43 <hearn> assuming the outputs get spent at some point, long term storage is higher with p2sh as there's more redundancy, obviously
1309 2014-03-21 15:48:43 <etotheipi_> of course I know the long-term storage costs are lower, and I expect that most multi-sig transactions in the future will use P2SH
1310 2014-03-21 15:48:52 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, The rest will turn it off: https://github.com/jgarzik/bitcoin/tree/bare-multisig
1311 2014-03-21 15:48:59 <hearn> etotheipi_: no .... the long term storage of p2sh transactions are HIGHER
1312 2014-03-21 15:48:59 <etotheipi_> but there *are* use cases for bare multisig
1313 2014-03-21 15:49:07 <jgarzik> hearn, provably false, sorry
1314 2014-03-21 15:49:10 <hearn> because you store a hash of the program, the program itself and the inputs to the program
1315 2014-03-21 15:49:17 <etotheipi_> dependes whether you are storing the whole blockchain or not
1316 2014-03-21 15:49:20 <etotheipi_> or pruning
1317 2014-03-21 15:49:26 <etotheipi_> if you're pruning, obvioulsy P2SH is better
1318 2014-03-21 15:49:31 <jgarzik> precisely
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1321 2014-03-21 15:50:13 <hearn> if you're deleting old blocks then long term storage costs are costs you choose not to pay. doesn't mean they don't exist, however
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1324 2014-03-21 15:50:59 <hearn> if the best thing people have to do is break existing, working code by forcing P2SH rather than doing something actually useful, like implementing a real anti-DoS framework, then bitcoin is truly doomed
1325 2014-03-21 15:51:04 <hearn> priorities, people!
1326 2014-03-21 15:51:42 <jgarzik> hearn, please tell me another way to prevent the ongoing data spam DoS
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1328 2014-03-21 15:52:10 <etotheipi_> jgarzik: banning multi-sig doesn't solve the problem, it makes it *harder*
1329 2014-03-21 15:52:14 <hearn> "data spam" is not a DoS, sorry. it's not intended to deny anyone service. now you sound like luke :)
1330 2014-03-21 15:52:18 <etotheipi_> err.. it makes it harder to spam
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1332 2014-03-21 15:52:25 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, precisely
1333 2014-03-21 15:52:26 <etotheipi_> but it doesn't go away
1334 2014-03-21 15:52:44 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, spam itself never goes away.  You can only make it more costly and difficult for the spammer.
1335 2014-03-21 15:52:48 <etotheipi_> so you destroy a use case of the network to reduce one dimension of spamming that spammers will work around anyway
1336 2014-03-21 15:53:03 <hearn> jgarzik: if you're worried about data spam then let's make progress on pruning rather than adding payment channels to bitcore ;)
1337 2014-03-21 15:53:41 <jgarzik> hearn, This is clearly low-hanging fruit, and the code is already written.
1338 2014-03-21 15:53:53 <dexX7> <jgarzik> ... There is even an active proposal to make bare multisig (non-P2SH) non-standard. < can you point me to there?
1339 2014-03-21 15:54:07 <jgarzik> dexX7, scroll back
1340 2014-03-21 15:54:19 <hearn> yes, obviously deleting features is always lower hanging fruit than fixing them
1341 2014-03-21 15:54:19 <etotheipi_> it doesn't change the fact that bare multi-sig is currently useful and standard... do we have a standardized encoding for it?
1342 2014-03-21 15:54:21 <hearn> that's not an argument
1343 2014-03-21 15:54:32 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: what is your use case for bare multisig?
1344 2014-03-21 15:54:48 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: and no, we don't have a standard encoding for it.
1345 2014-03-21 15:55:09 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: one-off multi-signature transactions, say for escrow with partially unknown/untrusted parties
1346 2014-03-21 15:55:21 <etotheipi_> I don't want to have to make persistent backups of my wallet meta-data just to find that tx later
1347 2014-03-21 15:55:38 <hearn> "OMG resource usage, let's delete the feature" has been the approach for years. there's no end in sight. people prefer to play with cool toys rather than implement the real fixes, which are always pushed off to another day. forcing people to get it right is perhaps one reason to keep such features around :)
1348 2014-03-21 15:55:43 <dexX7> ^
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1350 2014-03-21 15:55:53 <jgarzik> hearn, hyperbole much?
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1352 2014-03-21 15:55:57 <jgarzik> hearn, did you even read the code?
1353 2014-03-21 15:56:19 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: but… but…  having a raw multisig that says "you were involved in an escrow.  Have no idea who the other parties were, but you were involved in an escrow!" doesn't seem particularly user-friendly to me.
1354 2014-03-21 15:56:46 <etotheipi_> I shouldnt' say "unknown/untrusted", but if I don't have all the public keys in my wallet and/or a way to know they were used together, I should have the ability to skip P2SH
1355 2014-03-21 15:56:52 <gavinandresen> I suppose I might be able to remember "oh, yeah, that escrow from last February that I put 11 BTC into, I remember that was with Tom somebody...."
1356 2014-03-21 15:57:00 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: user-friendly is not relevant here
1357 2014-03-21 15:57:05 <etotheipi_> this is low-level stuff
1358 2014-03-21 15:57:17 <hearn> what is the goal here anyway? it can't be the sigops thing because sigops only matter when a tx is spent
1359 2014-03-21 15:57:20 <gavinandresen> that's why I asked for a high-level use case
1360 2014-03-21 15:57:25 <hearn> and obviously p2sh doesn't change the cost of spending the tx (well, it increases it)
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1362 2014-03-21 15:58:26 <jgarzik> Giving miners an option -- default off -- to avoid data spam seems perfectly reasonable to me.
1363 2014-03-21 15:58:29 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: perhaps I want to build a system that faciliatates certain types of multi-sig escrow transactions (in a user-friendly way)... but I now have extra backup requirements to deal with if I can't use multi-sig
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1366 2014-03-21 15:58:49 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: my point is you have extra backup requirements in any case
1367 2014-03-21 15:59:11 <gavinandresen> … because knowing just "my public key is involved" won't be enough information to get the coins out of escrow
1368 2014-03-21 15:59:23 <sipa> etotheipi_: no
1369 2014-03-21 15:59:26 <etotheipi_> forcing P2SH complicates all that
1370 2014-03-21 15:59:48 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: we don't see how. You need to record information about the escrow….
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1372 2014-03-21 16:00:16 <dexX7> jgarzik: just catching up the discussion in the xcp thread etc.. - abusing multisig outputs to encode data doesn't create many unspent outputs, if spent?
1373 2014-03-21 16:00:41 <hearn> people have already come up with protocols that can make use of being able to match what outputs contain (e.g. the bonds thing i proposed years ago). they will undoubtably come up with protocols that want to spot transactions without caring about all the data chunks involved in future too
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1375 2014-03-21 16:00:56 <hearn> what's the rationale for adding yet more restrictions?
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1377 2014-03-21 16:01:33 <etotheipi_> so it's worth disabling a part of the network capability on a hunch that no one will find this useful?
1378 2014-03-21 16:01:55 <gavinandresen> for the record: I think we should keep raw multisig. I don't think we should have a standard address format / encoding  for it
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1380 2014-03-21 16:03:06 <sipa> if i would build bitcoin today, it would certainly be p2sh only
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1382 2014-03-21 16:03:12 <jgarzik> +1
1383 2014-03-21 16:03:25 <gavinandresen> mmm… me too....
1384 2014-03-21 16:03:27 <sipa> so much simpler to let sending code only deal with one type of destinatioms
1385 2014-03-21 16:03:39 <jgarzik> dexX7, the answer to that is conditional -- is it spent to another multisig output?  if yes, then the cost to UTXO is unchanged.
1386 2014-03-21 16:03:40 <sipa> and let receivers deal with what they want to deal with
1387 2014-03-21 16:04:01 <sipa> it also guarantees being able go infer prevout address from a signature
1388 2014-03-21 16:04:06 <hearn> sipa: but that can already be done. just have the recipient tell the sender what script they want;
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1390 2014-03-21 16:04:19 <hearn> recall the original justification for p2sh:   addresses longer than N characters would be annoying for people
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1392 2014-03-21 16:04:31 <sipa> hearn: part of it is how we've dealt with it, agree
1393 2014-03-21 16:04:45 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, That's why I wrote the patch the way I did -- "default off" but give users the ability to choose to disincentivize it themselves (or not).
1394 2014-03-21 16:04:49 <hearn> i mean, why does bitcoin support <pubkey> CHECKSIG? because satoshi originally envisioned addresses only being used as a backup
1395 2014-03-21 16:04:49 <sipa> hearn: but for various reasons, imho, p2sh only would be far simpler
1396 2014-03-21 16:05:00 <hearn> and a payment protocol being used for the rest
1397 2014-03-21 16:05:07 <hearn> which is where we're heading .......
1398 2014-03-21 16:05:14 <sipa> hearn: short address is not an important reason to want p2sh for me
1399 2014-03-21 16:05:15 <dexX7> no one ever wants to send coins into limbo, so they are spent at some point. rather than shutting down this feature, it may be a better solution to provide tools to spend multisig outputs.
1400 2014-03-21 16:05:33 <hearn> so now the justification is changing to be shaving some bytes off the utxo db, which is certainly useful, but it comes at a cost of extra long term storage for anyone who holds the chain and fewer blocks fitting into the disk space nodes do allocate
1401 2014-03-21 16:05:39 <sipa> dexX7: you need to backup private keys; backing up scripts is not harder
1402 2014-03-21 16:05:55 <hearn> it's unclear to me that this is really better. at least, the costs involved are very murky and nobody really did some convincing mathematical analysis to show that shifting bytes around like that is a win
1403 2014-03-21 16:06:05 <etotheipi_> look, I know what you're saying... but there's clearly a functional difference between raw multi-sig and P2SH, and I don't think it should need much justification to keep it
1404 2014-03-21 16:06:17 <sipa> hearn: the storage cost of the blockchain are much lower per byte than the utxo set
1405 2014-03-21 16:06:19 <etotheipi_> even though I don't have a great high-level use case, doesn't mean there' won't be
1406 2014-03-21 16:06:25 <jgarzik> There is clearly an active, ongoing difference in use
1407 2014-03-21 16:06:40 <sipa> etotheipi_: oh, i'm not argueing for removing bare multisig
1408 2014-03-21 16:06:41 <jgarzik> RE this theoretical multisig people are describing, and the actual data storage by projects
1409 2014-03-21 16:06:43 <etotheipi_> the argument against it seems to be that it enables spam... I'm sorry but ther'es going to be spam
1410 2014-03-21 16:06:52 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, it /easily/ enables spam
1411 2014-03-21 16:06:57 <hearn> sipa: sure? under what assumptions?
1412 2014-03-21 16:07:18 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, engineering is never a binary decision, but a gauge of cost versus benefit.
1413 2014-03-21 16:07:29 <sipa> hearn: having it indexed, fast acceasible, cached, low latency updatable
1414 2014-03-21 16:07:29 <etotheipi_> jgarzik: so you're saying that if someone wants to dump a bunch of data into the blockchain, that they won't find a way to do it if we disable multisig
1415 2014-03-21 16:07:32 <etotheipi_> ?
1416 2014-03-21 16:07:52 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, it will be harder and more costly
1417 2014-03-21 16:07:55 <etotheipi_> I thought we did the OP_RETURN thing to give people a channel to do that
1418 2014-03-21 16:08:08 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, ...which is not stored in UTXO...
1419 2014-03-21 16:08:11 <Imbue> etotheipi_: OP_RETURN is prunable
1420 2014-03-21 16:08:13 <sipa> etotheipi_: NO NO NO
1421 2014-03-21 16:08:24 <etotheipi_> sipa: I know
1422 2014-03-21 16:08:35 <sipa> etotheipi_: op return is to avoid them using the much worse chanel of stuffing it into unprunable bare multisigs
1423 2014-03-21 16:08:36 <etotheipi_> I didn't mean that we're encouraging it
1424 2014-03-21 16:08:37 <hearn> sipa: but you only pay those costs until the utxo is deleted. and larger blocks have to be loaded into RAM and Bloom filtered, or served to other full nodes
1425 2014-03-21 16:08:51 <hearn> meanwhile, leveldb is pretty efficient. eventually each entry compacts down to just one entry on disk
1426 2014-03-21 16:09:01 <sipa> etotheipi_: it's like giving drug addicts a clean needle
1427 2014-03-21 16:09:09 <Imbue> hah
1428 2014-03-21 16:09:12 <jgarzik> sipa, heh, indeed, a fair analogy
1429 2014-03-21 16:09:19 <etotheipi_> sipa: I know, I read all the discussions, I didn't mean to suggest it was encouraged
1430 2014-03-21 16:09:33 <etotheipi_> or to use an inappropriate luke-jr analogy ... like making rapists wear condoms
1431 2014-03-21 16:09:34 <hearn> oh come on. there are actual use cases for this stuff. look at the wiki on the p2p bond network
1432 2014-03-21 16:09:49 <hearn> i've come up with protocols that could use OP_RETURN and which are actual decentralised finance
1433 2014-03-21 16:09:54 <sipa> hearn: agree, but i doubt that's what it will end up being used for
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1436 2014-03-21 16:10:34 <sipa> hearn: also agree that utxo costs are temporeary instead of permanent, but imho the per-time costs are much much higher
1437 2014-03-21 16:10:36 <dexX7> from a multisig-data-abuser perspective: what would the change imply? that data is rather stored in the scriptsig than output?
1438 2014-03-21 16:10:39 <hearn> we can't predict that. part of the reason people like bitcoin is the uncontrollable innovation aspect of it
1439 2014-03-21 16:10:46 <etotheipi_> my point is... if someone is intent to dump data on the blockchain, you think that disabling bare multi-sig is going to prevent it?
1440 2014-03-21 16:10:48 <jgarzik> As a result, the code demonstrates an IMO reasonable position:  give users the tool to disincentivize bare multisig, defaulted to off.  Miners have already requested this.
1441 2014-03-21 16:10:54 <jgarzik> dexX7, correct
1442 2014-03-21 16:11:10 <jgarzik> dexX7, and as a result, not in UTXO database
1443 2014-03-21 16:11:21 <sipa> hearn: and long term, costs drop because of moore's law, so the short term matters more
1444 2014-03-21 16:11:30 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I haven't looked at the code, does it make redeeming a bar multisig also non-standard?  (shouldn't, if it does....)
1445 2014-03-21 16:11:48 <dexX7> well, then "nothing changes" but the parsing and tx construction. sounds acceptable.
1446 2014-03-21 16:11:51 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, it shouldn't, but I will test that before PR'ing
1447 2014-03-21 16:11:59 <hearn> i'm really not a fan of removing every feature we can't immediately find a cool implementation using it for, just in case it gets "abused" (by our definition). we should find ways to let people control their own costs and so on. ok, so i admit i didn't read jgarzik's code, was just reacting to "let's scrap bare multisig", a default-off switch doesn't sound so bad
1448 2014-03-21 16:12:18 <etotheipi_> so "active proposals to make bare multi-sig non-standard"... is that actively being considered?
1449 2014-03-21 16:12:25 <jouke> Does it also make it not standard?
1450 2014-03-21 16:12:27 <hearn> sipa: why would moore's law not affect utxo storage costs as well? btw i often wonder if we can't seriously beat LevelDB with an SSD-optimised store
1451 2014-03-21 16:12:37 <dexX7> but i don't really like the additude of "we don't like this or that use-case"
1452 2014-03-21 16:12:39 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, my patch adds a switch to make bare multisig non-standard.  default off.
1453 2014-03-21 16:12:39 <hearn> sipa: given that LDB is so heavily optimised for rotating platters     (offtopic side note)
1454 2014-03-21 16:12:43 <sipa> hearn: it does affect utxo storage equally
1455 2014-03-21 16:13:09 <sipa> hearn: but utxo costs are temporary, blockchaim is permanent
1456 2014-03-21 16:13:20 raid5 has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1457 2014-03-21 16:13:21 <etotheipi_> +1  "<hearn> i'm really not a fan of removing every feature we can't immediately find a cool implementation using it for, just in case it gets "abused""
1458 2014-03-21 16:13:25 <jouke> +1
1459 2014-03-21 16:13:27 <sipa> therefore it relatvelty impacts blockchain storage costs more
1460 2014-03-21 16:13:45 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, I'm not a fan either, but I live in Realville, where abuse happens anyway.
1461 2014-03-21 16:13:47 <sipa> etotheipi_: the debate, i think, is that it does not remove a feature :)
1462 2014-03-21 16:14:08 Alina-malina has joined
1463 2014-03-21 16:14:24 <sipa> the only thing it removes is being able to detect transactions to you without being informed about the whole script
1464 2014-03-21 16:14:28 <hearn> sipa: well, when you take into account things like larger blocks == fewer nodes serving old data == more bandwidth/cpu load on the ones that can, i think the relative costs are at least unclear. it'd be nice if some smart academics wrote a paper on this
1465 2014-03-21 16:14:44 <etotheipi_> well that's what I'm trying to figure out:  are we debating whether a serious proposal to disable multisig should go through?  or are we just having a philosophical discussion?
1466 2014-03-21 16:14:59 <etotheipi_> jgarzik: I know it's not "totally disabling multisig"
1467 2014-03-21 16:15:09 <jouke> We were just implementing payment protocol so we could have less standard scripts and now we are discouraging these transactions even further :(
1468 2014-03-21 16:15:32 buhbuh has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1469 2014-03-21 16:15:40 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, this is not "disabling multisig"
1470 2014-03-21 16:15:51 <jouke> In pracitice it is imo
1471 2014-03-21 16:15:55 <sipa> jouke: if you're using the payment rptocol, you always know about incoming payments, and to any script you choose
1472 2014-03-21 16:15:56 daybyter has joined
1473 2014-03-21 16:16:08 <sipa> jouke: p2sh should make zsro differemce
1474 2014-03-21 16:16:12 <sipa> grr
1475 2014-03-21 16:16:15 <sipa> zero difference
1476 2014-03-21 16:16:37 <sipa> as the only thing bare muktisig gives you is being able to recognize transactions to you
1477 2014-03-21 16:16:43 <etotheipi_> if it's non-standard, it becomes useless for "regular" use cases... you need to be "privileged" to use it
1478 2014-03-21 16:16:44 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: I didn't make *that* analogy.
1479 2014-03-21 16:16:56 <hearn> yes
1480 2014-03-21 16:17:00 <jgarzik> sipa, ...if you don't have already have the script...
1481 2014-03-21 16:17:02 <hearn> and it reduces spending cost a bit
1482 2014-03-21 16:17:03 <sipa> in the payment protocol, you're always choosimg that scriopt anywau
1483 2014-03-21 16:17:21 <sipa> i need to stop typing on a tablet
1484 2014-03-21 16:17:22 coingenuity has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1485 2014-03-21 16:17:47 <hearn> (as in, p2sh increases spending cost a bit, but using raw scripts in pp requests decreases costs)
1486 2014-03-21 16:17:55 <jgarzik> sipa, google voice search -> voice dictation -> IRC :)  I just tried it last night on Android 4.2 cheap Chinese tablet.
1487 2014-03-21 16:18:24 <sipa> hearn: that's at least very uncertain
1488 2014-03-21 16:18:28 <dexX7> re: "multisig usage is 90 % abuse" ... any guess why there is only 10 % legitimate usage? my guess, because it's hard to use.
1489 2014-03-21 16:18:30 <hearn> haha, it's sort of the worlds most complicated and expensive conference call ;)
1490 2014-03-21 16:18:34 <jouke> sipa: these arguments have been told many times before, but I am still not convinced. I still see the storage of scripts as a problem, but I didn't care, because p2sh was optional.
1491 2014-03-21 16:18:38 <jgarzik> hearn, not just uncertain but less private too
1492 2014-03-21 16:18:54 <jgarzik> hearn, <vendor hat: on> BitPay wants to move to P2SH for everything
1493 2014-03-21 16:18:55 llllllllll has quit ()
1494 2014-03-21 16:19:05 <jouke> vendor hat on: we don't
1495 2014-03-21 16:19:15 <sipa> jouke: ok, good to know
1496 2014-03-21 16:19:23 <jgarzik> +1
1497 2014-03-21 16:20:11 <sipa> imho, the script just becomes part of the private key, which already needs safe storage etc, ...
1498 2014-03-21 16:20:36 <sipa> but i understand there may be complications in moving to that
1499 2014-03-21 16:20:42 <jgarzik> ditto chain codes.  key object needs storage
1500 2014-03-21 16:21:21 <jouke> Both ways has its advantages, so it is nice to have a choice.
1501 2014-03-21 16:21:38 <hearn> jgarzik: why? that'd be bizarre. it only increases your costs
1502 2014-03-21 16:21:50 <hearn> jgarzik: if you use P2SH for everything then your spending transactions get larger, and then you have to pay more fees.
1503 2014-03-21 16:22:04 <jgarzik> hearn, again with a simplistic view of costs.  Customer privacy is a benefit.
1504 2014-03-21 16:22:07 <hearn> jgarzik: the most cost-optimal thing for you to do is actually use raw <pubkey> OP_CHECKSIG outputs in payment protocol requests
1505 2014-03-21 16:22:20 cbeams has joined
1506 2014-03-21 16:22:26 <hearn> it gives no extra customer privacy, why would that make any difference? you guys sell the coins or transfer them very quickly. the script rapidly becomes visible no matter what
1507 2014-03-21 16:22:44 <sipa> agree there
1508 2014-03-21 16:23:00 <jgarzik> hearn, ...and that is an _very_ simplistic assumption of what we do under the hood with coins, and what we plan to do
1509 2014-03-21 16:23:02 <sipa> at least when coupled with no-key-reuse, there is no benefit in privacy
1510 2014-03-21 16:23:14 <rdbell> Why does it seem like bitcoind signrawtransaction is failing if I don't have the blockchain downloaded? I thought offline signing was possible.
1511 2014-03-21 16:23:18 Subo1977_ has joined
1512 2014-03-21 16:23:31 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: btw, did you really create two new 1024-bit GPG keys on Jan 1 this year?
1513 2014-03-21 16:23:32 <jouke> hearn: I was once thinking about the p2sh problem and was thinking of making a p2sh "address" and spending it directly so the script would never be lost.
1514 2014-03-21 16:23:37 <hearn> well feel free to explain :) but right now p2sh isn't really used much at all, so switching to it would immediately make all your customers transactions light up, which would be a huge privacy loss
1515 2014-03-21 16:23:43 <jouke> Is that abuse as well?
1516 2014-03-21 16:24:03 <hearn> jouke: well it's not how it's meant to be used and would cost fees. so ...... yeah, don't do that :)
1517 2014-03-21 16:24:05 <sipa> rdbell: it needs to know the inputs being spent in order to know how to sign them
1518 2014-03-21 16:24:13 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: Jan 1?  I was on vacation in New Zealand, so no...
1519 2014-03-21 16:24:19 <hearn> (same issue with lighting up txns for using raw CHECKSIG too of course)
1520 2014-03-21 16:24:24 <hearn> etotheipi_: where do you see those keys?
1521 2014-03-21 16:24:28 <etotheipi_> http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=gavin+andresen&op=index
1522 2014-03-21 16:24:30 <rdbell> sipa: So offline signing is, in fact, not possible?
1523 2014-03-21 16:24:34 <sipa> rdbell: you can provide the raw inputs in the rpc call
1524 2014-03-21 16:24:44 <jouke> hearn: I know, but is it abuse? Because it has its advantages to overcome the p2sh problem of storing scripts...
1525 2014-03-21 16:24:47 <rdbell> sipa: I see.
1526 2014-03-21 16:24:50 <sipa> rdbell: so they don't need to be fetvhed from the utxo set
1527 2014-03-21 16:24:51 <etotheipi_> smells like bad news
1528 2014-03-21 16:25:21 <sipa> jouke: not abuse, but unnecessary imgo
1529 2014-03-21 16:25:24 <hearn> someone is forging GPG keys of major crypto developers. a Tor dev has had this happen twice now
1530 2014-03-21 16:25:48 <hearn> this is indeed very bad and suggests these keys are likely to be used somewhere soon. unfortunately there's no good way to revoke the bad keys
1531 2014-03-21 16:25:49 <rdbell> sipa: Do you know of an example of that somewhere? The format for providing raw inputs in the rpc call
1532 2014-03-21 16:25:50 <sipa> jouke: like using 2 tramsactions to provide green addresses
1533 2014-03-21 16:26:15 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1534 2014-03-21 16:26:25 <jouke> sipa: exactly
1535 2014-03-21 16:26:48 <sipa> jouke: the "p2sh script storage problem" is imho an engineering problem to make systems work with it
1536 2014-03-21 16:26:49 cbeams has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1537 2014-03-21 16:26:55 <etotheipi_> well thank god for our well-connected WoT and no one trusts GPG keys unless they are signe... oh wait
1538 2014-03-21 16:27:09 <sipa> jouke: not an inherent technical problem
1539 2014-03-21 16:27:12 <hearn> gavinandresen: i suggest making an email announcement with the fingerprints and short fingerprints of the bad keys so it gets indexed by google
1540 2014-03-21 16:27:17 <dexX7> does using of p2sh imply that all multisig pubkeys contain valid ecdsa points or would it be sufficient that the redeemer is valid?
1541 2014-03-21 16:27:30 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1542 2014-03-21 16:27:32 <hearn> gavinandresen: and the fact that this is happening to >1 crypto dev suggests we should try and sound the alarm.
1543 2014-03-21 16:27:33 <sipa> dexX7: orthogonal
1544 2014-03-21 16:27:55 <adam3us> hearn: they maybe should best effort verify the email address where applicable, like x509 CAs...
1545 2014-03-21 16:28:03 <gavinandresen> hearn: I'll create a post on my gavintech blog
1546 2014-03-21 16:28:07 Zarutian has joined
1547 2014-03-21 16:28:10 <hearn> good idea
1548 2014-03-21 16:28:41 <hearn> adam3us: who is "they"? at that point you'd just have reinvented the PKI. unfortunately right now we have two systems, both of which have fatal flaws
1549 2014-03-21 16:28:42 <dexX7> sipa: sorry. is this a yes or no?
1550 2014-03-21 16:28:47 <sipa> dexX7: neither
1551 2014-03-21 16:28:48 <gavinandresen> … I wonder if I should be provocative and title it "PGP fail"
1552 2014-03-21 16:28:53 <adam3us> gavinandresen: be sure to PGP sign  your post :)
1553 2014-03-21 16:28:54 <hearn> 1) pgp relies on the WoT which doesn't work. you can't revoke bad keys or do much of anything beyond make blog posts
1554 2014-03-21 16:28:56 phoenix52 has joined
1555 2014-03-21 16:28:58 <hearn> but at least you can see the bad keys!
1556 2014-03-21 16:29:02 <sipa> xeroc: p2sh has nithing to do with that
1557 2014-03-21 16:29:05 <sipa> eh
1558 2014-03-21 16:29:15 <hearn> 2) s/mime, the pki should prevent bad keys being created in theory. but if they are, you can't see them
1559 2014-03-21 16:29:21 <sipa> dexX7: p2sh has nothimg to do with that
1560 2014-03-21 16:29:55 <hearn> the right fix is certificate transparency, which gives us the benefits of both worlds in the PKI S/MIME model. except S/MIME/PKIX sucks at doing useful things like ascii-armored sigs and detached sigs of files and stuff
1561 2014-03-21 16:30:38 Emcy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1562 2014-03-21 16:30:52 <hearn> i wonder who else might be suffering this problem.
1563 2014-03-21 16:31:02 <hearn> it's hard to tell just by searching names because so many people legitimately have >1 pgp key :(
1564 2014-03-21 16:31:09 <dexX7> sipa: if it's "simply a shift from outputs into the scriptsig".. then it has? or am i missing something essential here?
1565 2014-03-21 16:31:12 Emcy has joined
1566 2014-03-21 16:31:13 <adam3us> hearn: i think there mightve been some abortive attempt to combine, eg a pgp CA (a CA being just a user who has a PGP key signing policy, and users may opt to allocate trust to its assertions)  of course in practice its all too complicated or insecure (in either system)
1567 2014-03-21 16:31:13 <hearn> and you can apparently set the date field to anything you want. gah.
1568 2014-03-21 16:31:33 <hearn> yeah. aschildbach's PGP key is signed by some PGP CA
1569 2014-03-21 16:31:35 <sipa> dexX7: i may misundsrstamd your questiom, but validation doesn't change at all
1570 2014-03-21 16:31:43 <dexX7> i see. thanks.
1571 2014-03-21 16:31:46 <hearn> but until he mentioned that i'd never heard of such a thing. it's unclear to me what their validation involves
1572 2014-03-21 16:31:56 <sipa> dexX7: it just moves the script from output to input yes
1573 2014-03-21 16:32:02 <hearn> adam3us: cert transparency is actually happening though. Chrome supports it now in mainline. major CA's are on board.
1574 2014-03-21 16:32:13 <hearn> adam3us: of course doesn't help for mail clients which would need to be upgraded as well .... but it's a start
1575 2014-03-21 16:32:33 <dexX7> sipa: awesome. i will bring this forward to the mastercoin dev list.
1576 2014-03-21 16:32:53 <adam3us> hearn: yes.  CT is a nice thing.  i proposed something a bit analogous but in the context of dns ownership security in the distant past.
1577 2014-03-21 16:32:58 <sipa> dexX7: help
1578 2014-03-21 16:33:16 _ImI_ has joined
1579 2014-03-21 16:33:41 testnode9 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1580 2014-03-21 16:33:45 <adam3us> hearn: http://www.cypherspace.org/p2p/auditable-namespace.html its a bit like a cross between namecoin and opentransactions transaction server model (trust, but audit; prove fraud/repair/switch)
1581 2014-03-21 16:34:14 <hearn> cool
1582 2014-03-21 16:34:17 * hearn has to go
1583 2014-03-21 16:34:19 <hearn> bbl
1584 2014-03-21 16:34:24 hearn has quit (Quit: hearn)
1585 2014-03-21 16:39:09 <aynstein> Does anyone have any resources on tinkering with testnet?
1586 2014-03-21 16:39:28 _ImI_ has quit (Quit: _ImI_)
1587 2014-03-21 16:39:52 <arubi> afaik the only thing that acts differently on testnet is the difficulty
1588 2014-03-21 16:40:04 <Imbue> nonstandard transactions are also relayed
1589 2014-03-21 16:40:05 <maaku> aynstein: ? treat it the same as mainnet
1590 2014-03-21 16:40:24 <arubi> and a different address version
1591 2014-03-21 16:41:08 markus_ has joined
1592 2014-03-21 16:41:09 llllllllll has joined
1593 2014-03-21 16:41:18 <jgarzik> adam3us, neat
1594 2014-03-21 16:43:04 <aynstein> Well, in this case its not for "testing" strictly speaking. I am looking into the feasability of setting up a hands on lab but the block time is a bit much for people. It's not a big deal ... perhaps its better to work within the networks time and emphasis why its important ...
1595 2014-03-21 16:43:30 raid5 has joined
1596 2014-03-21 16:44:09 <wumpus> aynstein: if it's for a private test lab you could use regtest mode instead of testnet, it allows generating blocks on demand
1597 2014-03-21 16:44:22 nexes has joined
1598 2014-03-21 16:44:33 <aynstein> oh wow, that would be perfect.
1599 2014-03-21 16:44:53 <aynstein> Yea, it could be an isolated net
1600 2014-03-21 16:45:20 testnode9 has joined
1601 2014-03-21 16:45:34 <aynstein> Happen to have any material or is it on the usual sources?
1602 2014-03-21 16:46:04 Emzy has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
1603 2014-03-21 16:46:32 <optimator_> wumpus: thanks again for your help. I got it to 0.9 compile but I need to compile openssl and place in /usr, like this  ./config --prefix=/usr enable-ec enable-ecdh enable-ecdsa shared
1604 2014-03-21 16:49:26 <dexX7> sipa: say there is a shift to p2sh. wouldn't this result in this scenario: 1. coins are send to the p2sh address, 2. coins are immediately redeemed to "publish" the data? which would in the end consume more space and whatsoever?
1605 2014-03-21 16:49:48 yubrew has joined
1606 2014-03-21 16:49:58 <rdbell> sipa: I have offline signing working now. Thanks for the help!
1607 2014-03-21 16:50:13 <jgarzik> dexX7, if you are doing that, that is a signal that using the blockchain for IM is not the best path to take
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1609 2014-03-21 16:50:34 <jgarzik> dexX7, the hash provably secures whatever data is there
1610 2014-03-21 16:51:02 <dexX7> sure, but you'd need to maintain a database with the de-hashed scripts available
1611 2014-03-21 16:51:23 <jgarzik> dexX7, Yes -- it is called "don't use the blockchain for all your data storage needs"   :)
1612 2014-03-21 16:51:29 <jgarzik> dexX7, all you need is a hash, in chain
1613 2014-03-21 16:51:46 [\\\] has joined
1614 2014-03-21 16:51:46 <jgarzik> blockchain is not for temporal data or IM or publishing
1615 2014-03-21 16:52:07 Breign has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1616 2014-03-21 16:52:13 <jgarzik> dexX7, maybe some metadata, like "BOND<hash>"
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1618 2014-03-21 16:52:20 <dexX7> you say that. i'm not taking side here, but trying to figure out solutions.
1619 2014-03-21 16:52:58 <dexX7> so you basically suggest to move to an off-chain model where the actual data is stored somewhere else, but the hashes are published?
1620 2014-03-21 16:53:06 <wumpus> optimator_: ugh :( too bad that you had to do that, it should really not be necessary to install openssl globally
1621 2014-03-21 16:54:02 <wumpus> optimator_: for example gitian also builds all the deps statically, and uses them in a locally installed path
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1623 2014-03-21 16:54:23 <wumpus> optimator_: anyway so it worked :p
1624 2014-03-21 16:55:13 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, blockchain for im? wat
1625 2014-03-21 16:55:19 <phantomcircuit> dexX7, dont do dat
1626 2014-03-21 16:55:38 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: bitmessage :p
1627 2014-03-21 16:55:42 <dexX7> i don't want to use the blockchain as im
1628 2014-03-21 16:56:01 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, personally i dont think bitmessage is a great design, but whatever floats your boat
1629 2014-03-21 16:56:18 <jgarzik> dexX7, once a hash(data) is provably timestamped in the chain, that provides proof-of-publishing
1630 2014-03-21 16:56:41 <phantomcircuit> what jgarzik said
1631 2014-03-21 16:56:53 <phantomcircuit> you want to have deniability in a secure messaging protocol
1632 2014-03-21 16:57:01 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1633 2014-03-21 16:57:13 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: I think it's a pretty interesting concept, but it's very different from the bitcoin blockchain as it doesn't retain the data forever
1634 2014-03-21 16:57:14 <phantomcircuit> (which is why email will never be a decent communication method for secure comms)
1635 2014-03-21 16:57:39 <optimator_> wumpus: I know! i think it might have been the yum install boost-devel that didn't install referencing the local path of openssl. If I have time I'll try it again.
1636 2014-03-21 16:59:19 <dexX7> but this also makes it a requirement to have a database with all decoded-hashes and this is the part that may be a problem, if some of the data is dependent on earlier data.
1637 2014-03-21 16:59:24 <gavinandresen> hearn: writing up an "I've got a PGP imposter" email now… I'm thinking maybe I should generate a few dozen more gpg keys, all signed by my main key, and upload all of them to the keyserver so it is obvious people should look elsewhere to figure out which key is the real key....
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1639 2014-03-21 17:00:20 <jgarzik> dexX7, could be "database", could be "chain", could be individuals posting documents on their individual webservers in a decentralized fashion, could be DHT
1640 2014-03-21 17:00:30 abossard has quit (Quit: abossard)
1641 2014-03-21 17:00:31 <gavinandresen> hmmm…. maybe key name Gavin Andresen (BEWARE OF IMPOSTERS) <gavinandresen@gmail.com>  ......
1642 2014-03-21 17:00:39 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1643 2014-03-21 17:01:02 <jgarzik> dexX7, the point is, follow the reverse train of logic:  assume everybody dumps all their data into the blockchain.
1644 2014-03-21 17:01:11 johba has quit (Quit: johba)
1645 2014-03-21 17:01:14 <waxwing> sounds like newsweek level forensics there gavinandresen
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1648 2014-03-21 17:01:36 <jgarzik> the blockchain is simply not designed for raw data storage, and you will run into engineering problems
1649 2014-03-21 17:02:00 <jgarzik> they can be engineered around... but sometimes you gotta stop trying to bolt a rocket pack onto the back of a duck
1650 2014-03-21 17:04:18 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, heh
1651 2014-03-21 17:04:32 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, iirc there's like 20 keys for mark at mtgox
1652 2014-03-21 17:04:33 Burrito has joined
1653 2014-03-21 17:04:36 <jgarzik> dexX7, as you say, gathering solutions.  Any solution that is less damaging than storing data in bare multisig outputs will be preferred to a solution that continues to do that.
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1657 2014-03-21 17:05:21 <jgarzik> dexX7, then the burden is on blocks alone, and not UTXO.  But even better to move that burden out of blockchain entirely, if at all possible.  Storing hash(data) will seal and timestamp any data.
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1662 2014-03-21 17:08:00 <dexX7> so step 1: actually spend the multisig outputs to reduce utxo, step 2: move to p2sh, step 3: go off-chain, reference hashes -- i seperate 2 + 3, because the short term solution may lead to redeeming the p2sh tx immediately
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1675 2014-03-21 17:21:11 <dexX7> this is kinda sad. what i take from all this is that the answer to a scaling problem is reducing usage instead of increasing capabilities. this is not meant as a complaint.
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1678 2014-03-21 17:22:54 <petertodd> dexX7: fwiw mastercoin and counterparty are well aware of that, which is why I'm working on fixing fundemental scaling issues
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1680 2014-03-21 17:23:56 <dexX7> that's good to hear. is there a place where i can follow your progress?
1681 2014-03-21 17:24:52 <petertodd> dexX7: if you're in NY next week I'm speaking at princeton, also will be giving a talk on it at the toronto bitcoin expo next april, and again at the amsterdam bitcoin conference in may
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1686 2014-03-21 17:29:45 <maaku> did the operation of VerifyScript change in any way on 0.9?
1687 2014-03-21 17:29:59 <dexX7> thanks. i will most likely not attend, but look out for recordings or similar.
1688 2014-03-21 17:30:36 <maaku> I'm getting signature validation errors (on an alt, but the alt hasn't touched script.cpp in the slightest)
1689 2014-03-21 17:30:38 <petertodd> maaku: yeah, sipa's inline sig serializer
1690 2014-03-21 17:30:58 <aynstein> gavinandresen: so its not really you sending me the encrypted kitten photos? I thought that was odd... (jk)
1691 2014-03-21 17:31:13 <gavinandresen> aynstein: dead kittens, right?
1692 2014-03-21 17:31:51 <jgarzik> maaku, error in a block validation, or error validating prior to relay?
1693 2014-03-21 17:31:52 airq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1694 2014-03-21 17:32:07 <aynstein> No, the babies were dead in the photos, kittens very much alive
1695 2014-03-21 17:32:19 <aynstein> see, not you i guess
1696 2014-03-21 17:32:51 <maaku> jgarzik: block validation "ERROR: CScriptCheck() : e70e30ffd385a6583f4aa504085d774178dd32ed769372ff1a1623b3bd454479:41 VerifySignature failed"
1697 2014-03-21 17:33:03 * aynstein found the line and crossed it :)
1698 2014-03-21 17:33:15 <maaku> i'm trying to tease out some more information about what, specifically is failing
1699 2014-03-21 17:33:24 <jgarzik> ok
1700 2014-03-21 17:33:29 <gavinandresen> hearn: http://gavintech.blogspot.com/2014/03/it-aint-me-ive-got-pgp-imposter.html
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1704 2014-03-21 17:35:17 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, link to that on twitter, and I'll re-tweet
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1708 2014-03-21 17:36:52 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: done
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1711 2014-03-21 17:38:35 <oleganza> hey guys,
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1713 2014-03-21 17:38:48 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, I wonder if it's possible to attach multiple signatures to a document.  We could gather a list of PGP key fingerprints, and all sign that text.
1714 2014-03-21 17:39:11 <oleganza> why do we need to enforce BIP30 (duplicate txs allowed only if original is fully spent) if we already enforce BIP34 (height in coinbase)?
1715 2014-03-21 17:39:49 <oleganza> I'm asking because in my implementation it would be much more efficient not to enforce BIP30 at all.
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1717 2014-03-21 17:41:56 <petertodd> jgarzik: it is
1718 2014-03-21 17:42:21 <petertodd> jgarzik: gpg --clearsign and then copy and paste all the sigs together at the end, also copy and paste every Hash: line
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1727 2014-03-21 17:50:21 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: … but an attacker could just create bogus keys for all of our email addresses and create a document that signs all of THOSE fingerprints...
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1733 2014-03-21 17:52:21 <uiop> 12:48:25 up 346 days,  4:25,  6 users,  load average: 0.46, 0.53, 0.49
1734 2014-03-21 17:52:23 <Imbue> hmm, blogspot fails hard with noscript. :<
1735 2014-03-21 17:52:29 benten has joined
1736 2014-03-21 17:52:30 <uiop> 9 more days to a year!
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1738 2014-03-21 17:52:53 benten is now known as Guest51345
1739 2014-03-21 17:53:02 <uiop> err, wrong channel, but it's just as well i guess
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1742 2014-03-21 17:53:58 <paveljanik> but he can't put it under https://bitcoin.org (is he doesn't own the client's machine, browser config, imports CA cert etc.)
1743 2014-03-21 17:54:35 <petertodd> gavinandresen: you should have your PGP fingerprint on your twitter account/in that tweet...
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1749 2014-03-21 17:57:51 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, in theory true... but I think it provides a useful bootstrap, presuming at least one of the other signers are known to be uncompromised by the person checking
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1751 2014-03-21 17:58:17 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, with tweeting, the [lame] WoT etc. one valid person could be found.
1752 2014-03-21 17:58:30 <jgarzik> Can the average person figure that out?  No :)
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1756 2014-03-21 17:59:20 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: no, the average person can't figure any of this out. I'd be the average PGP-using-geek won't take the time to think about it, either.  I'm very negative on PGP as a practical security solution.
1757 2014-03-21 17:59:39 <jgarzik> indeed
1758 2014-03-21 17:59:40 <petertodd> jgarzik: indeed, WoT works very well given how you only need a few other-way-checked fingerprints to get decent assurance, and for average people, relying on the SSL cert at bitcoin.org is good too... which is how the dev-using-PGP community can get that root of trust too
1759 2014-03-21 18:00:24 * petertodd is very negative on developers who don't even understand PGP writing crypto-currency-related code
1760 2014-03-21 18:00:27 benten_ has joined
1761 2014-03-21 18:00:30 <gavinandresen> relying on the SSL certs at both bitcoin.org and github.com is pretty good, which is why I suggested people get my key from both those places.
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1763 2014-03-21 18:00:45 <jgarzik> <shrug>  I personally wouldn't rely on the SSL cert.  The scenario of "hacker enters server, replaces *.asc" is far more likely than "hacker redirects bitcoin.org to his own batcave"
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1765 2014-03-21 18:01:40 <petertodd> gavinandresen: adding the fingerprint to other places makes it easier for any attack to be detected, harder for the careful to be tricked
1766 2014-03-21 18:01:59 <jgarzik> +1
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1768 2014-03-21 18:02:36 <jgarzik> I would like get a PGP checking robot out on a lone dedicated server somehow.  Download files over and over, watching for not-PGP-verified changes.
1769 2014-03-21 18:02:58 <jgarzik> I think PGP could be more successful as a tripwire like that, than through existing geek cross-checking
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1774 2014-03-21 18:04:26 <petertodd> keybase.io is really interesting in that regard - it's actually a client-side library to do automatic checking by actually going to the service in question and getting the signed statements
1775 2014-03-21 18:04:51 <petertodd> funny thing is it doesn't actually need to be a website at all - could just be a new type of UID on your OpenPGP key
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1778 2014-03-21 18:05:58 <paveljanik> jgarzik: the the "hacker" can notice you are downloading the file and thus will always provide the correct one to you.
1779 2014-03-21 18:06:54 <jgarzik> paveljanik, for the robot?  not as long as the bootstrap period is secure
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1781 2014-03-21 18:07:18 <jgarzik> paveljanik, You cannot know which one is a robot versus a normal user
1782 2014-03-21 18:07:59 <petertodd> paveljanik: with keybase.io all the verifications are themselves protected by SSL, so basically the service where the user has an account is acting like a certificate authority
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1785 2014-03-21 18:09:19 <petertodd> paveljanik: but yeah, always a good idea to do stuff like that over Tor so that the NSA or whatever can't easily do selective attacks on just you
1786 2014-03-21 18:10:12 <paveljanik> jgarzik: well, usually user downloads the file once or twice...
1787 2014-03-21 18:10:21 <petertodd> paveljanik: same reason I proposed on the -dev email list awhile back that software releases include a mandatory publication of some kind on the bitcoin blockchain, so as to make it possible to verify that the release you are using is the one everyone else is too and that there do not exist any "special" releases (e.g. to steal coins)
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1789 2014-03-21 18:10:32 <paveljanik> yes, you can have changing source IP, changing the agent string etc.
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1791 2014-03-21 18:11:44 <paveljanik> should everyone else be using the same software release?
1792 2014-03-21 18:12:14 <paveljanik> the protocol is open, we can't force users to Core.
1793 2014-03-21 18:14:11 <paveljanik> BTW - anyone tried pushing Bitcoin Core into Linux distributions directly?
1794 2014-03-21 18:14:12 <petertodd> paveljanik: suppose I release Todd Wallet and sign reproducable builds of Todd Wallet with my PGP key. You as a user want to be sure the build is the one everyone else is using because if I were to put some coin stealing functionality into the software you don't want to make it possible for me to hide the fact that I did so by making a special build to target just you.
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1796 2014-03-21 18:15:59 <petertodd> paveljanik: equally, I want that to be true too, so when I get coerced into created such a build - maybe because my local government has decided it needs to confiscate some bitcoins as part of a court order - I can tell said government that I can't help them without making it known to everyone that the coercion happened
1797 2014-03-21 18:16:06 <Imbue> paveljanik: linux dists cause issues with upgrade cycle
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1799 2014-03-21 18:16:41 <Imbue> paveljanik: for example, how do you deal with debian ending up with 0.reallyold in stable
1800 2014-03-21 18:17:47 llllllllll has joined
1801 2014-03-21 18:17:58 <Imbue> or if updates are pushed on a regular basis, users have to ignore repositories if they want to run an older version for whatever reason (lack of agreement with a consensus change f ex)
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1811 2014-03-21 18:24:47 <paveljanik> paveljanik: yes, tough position
1812 2014-03-21 18:25:06 <Imbue> i seem to recall this actually happened at some point but i forget the distro
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1816 2014-03-21 18:25:56 <paveljanik> distros bring another level of "security" around updates so this could help a bit
1817 2014-03-21 18:26:14 <petertodd> paveljanik: remember that in the states such a court order to a third party can also come with a very stringest non-disclosure provision preventing you from even telling your family, or amazingly, even your lawyer by some interpretations of it
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1820 2014-03-21 18:32:51 <waxwing> petertodd, yes, see: lavabit
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1830 2014-03-21 18:38:14 <paveljanik> petertodd: yes, the same here in CZ.
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1832 2014-03-21 18:38:42 <paveljanik> with the exception of your lawyer. You could tell to him, but he is in the same position - "secret information".
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1834 2014-03-21 18:39:10 <paveljanik> but you can always reject to do so.
1835 2014-03-21 18:39:46 <waxwing> there is the idea of putting a message 'i have not been coerced', but it seems like nonsense to me, because they could force you to keep putting out that message.
1836 2014-03-21 18:39:50 <paveljanik> and go to the constitutional court...
1837 2014-03-21 18:40:30 <petertodd> paveljanik: yup, and there's an example where a blockchain.info-style client-size wallet has in fact done exactly that - released bugged code - to steal back stolen BTC
1838 2014-03-21 18:40:48 <petertodd> waxwing: yup, forcing the code to be public is much stronger
1839 2014-03-21 18:40:54 <petertodd> but I gotta go, later
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1904 2014-03-21 19:55:27 <buZz> why arent ppl robbing bitpay.com blind?
1905 2014-03-21 19:55:33 <buZz> as they take 0 confirms ..
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1908 2014-03-21 19:56:58 <justanotheruser> buZz: because no pools have set up the utilies to doublespend
1909 2014-03-21 19:57:15 <justanotheruser> eligius allows you to push to them, but they don't take doublespends yet (from what I've hear)
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1916 2014-03-21 20:00:19 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: you don't need a pool to take doublespends, to doublespend a 0 conf acceptance
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1919 2014-03-21 20:02:45 <dgenr8> let's fix that. see PR #3883
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1923 2014-03-21 20:04:47 <dgenr8> the idea is that merchant waits a little while, until probability of successful doublespend without him having seen it drops as low as desired
1924 2014-03-21 20:06:23 <dgenr8> with the speed of tx propagation i'm optimistic about what that time will turn out to be
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1927 2014-03-21 20:09:14 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: it is much harder though
1928 2014-03-21 20:09:46 <justanotheruser> If you let the tx propogate for 30 seconds, it pretty much is guaranteed to get to a pool after 30 seconds
1929 2014-03-21 20:09:54 <justanotheruser> ehh, redundant
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1931 2014-03-21 20:12:14 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: or you can send it to pools, and design the transaction so that most nodes won't propagate it.
1932 2014-03-21 20:12:32 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: then send BitPay (or whoever) the second transaction which is less likely to confirm
1933 2014-03-21 20:12:48 <Luke-Jr> (because miners have already seen the first one)
1934 2014-03-21 20:13:07 <dgenr8> merchant controls whether or not he gives you the goods
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1938 2014-03-21 20:14:48 <dgenr8> so he needs to know about respend attempts asap.  similar to credit card declined -- except merchant also has bad guy's money
1939 2014-03-21 20:16:29 <dgenr8> .. some of the time.  he can send it back if he feels nice.  or make doublespender wait until he's sure he got paid after n confirmations
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1942 2014-03-21 20:18:33 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: no, "credit card declined" is immediately knowable with any full node. the inputs wouldn't exist in the UTXO set for that case.
1943 2014-03-21 20:18:46 <Luke-Jr> double spending is more like a credit card chargeback (which takes months for CCs)
1944 2014-03-21 20:19:26 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, months to secure against :P
1945 2014-03-21 20:19:32 <phantomcircuit> it takes minutes to do
1946 2014-03-21 20:19:45 <Luke-Jr> right
1947 2014-03-21 20:20:04 <num1> how common are double-spends anyway?
1948 2014-03-21 20:20:14 <num1> has anybody collected/published that data?
1949 2014-03-21 20:20:15 <phantomcircuit> num1, that is the wrong question
1950 2014-03-21 20:20:21 <dgenr8> about as common as real time merchants accepting bitcoin
1951 2014-03-21 20:20:25 <num1> phantomcircuit, you're right
1952 2014-03-21 20:20:57 <phantomcircuit> num1, as it stands nearly all merchants are secure against double spends
1953 2014-03-21 20:20:58 <num1> how often to transactions not make it into a block because they were part of an attempted double-spend
1954 2014-03-21 20:21:00 <phantomcircuit> so there are very few
1955 2014-03-21 20:21:28 <Luke-Jr> num1: make it easier, and I'm sure you'll see more :P
1956 2014-03-21 20:21:44 <phantomcircuit> heh
1957 2014-03-21 20:21:46 phogster has left ()
1958 2014-03-21 20:21:46 <num1> heh
1959 2014-03-21 20:21:49 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, ++
1960 2014-03-21 20:21:49 zenojis has joined
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1962 2014-03-21 20:22:07 <dgenr8> num1: i think that answer is never.  miners don't punish 0-conf doublespends
1963 2014-03-21 20:23:19 <dgenr8> num1: unless you meant how often both don't get in, in which case answer is always
1964 2014-03-21 20:24:13 parhoops50 has joined
1965 2014-03-21 20:24:44 <num1> dgenr8, even my second attempt was badly phrased. There is an attack you can perform upon unsuspecting merchants wherein you publish two different transactions which share inputs simultaneously. While most merchants are secure against the attack is there anybody listening on the network who is in a position to notice most attampts
1966 2014-03-21 20:25:06 <num1> You would need a couple different nodes scattered in different parts of the network
1967 2014-03-21 20:25:19 <num1> and to record all doublespends you see
1968 2014-03-21 20:26:07 cbeams has joined
1969 2014-03-21 20:26:36 <dgenr8> #3883 is about alerting the entire network to respend attempts
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1971 2014-03-21 20:27:17 ninsei has joined
1972 2014-03-21 20:27:22 <Luke-Jr> witnessed*
1973 2014-03-21 20:29:59 <dgenr8> the most important recipient of notification is the merchant who is about to hand over the coffee
1974 2014-03-21 20:30:13 <num1> dgenr8, yeah this is some nice reading thanks
1975 2014-03-21 20:30:29 cbeams has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1976 2014-03-21 20:31:09 SoftwareMechanic has quit (Quit: SoftwareMechanic)
1977 2014-03-21 20:31:12 * midnightmagic shudders at the possibility of double-spend alert DDoS.
1978 2014-03-21 20:31:34 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1979 2014-03-21 20:31:41 <num1> midnightmagic, how would that work?
1980 2014-03-21 20:32:00 <num1> o, I see it now
1981 2014-03-21 20:32:24 <num1> You send one transaction and then spam a lot of doublespends that get propagated
1982 2014-03-21 20:32:31 <dgenr8> in gavin's implementation, only first respend is relayed
1983 2014-03-21 20:32:40 <dgenr8> that's enough
1984 2014-03-21 20:33:05 <dgenr8> petertodd has been looking pretty hard for a more subtle vulnerability
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1990 2014-03-21 20:34:34 <midnightmagic> dgenr8: There are still DoS opportunities for people who own coin, versus just a single message per-spend then blocked in the current rules until block is found.
1991 2014-03-21 20:34:52 tom_ is now known as Guest88794
1992 2014-03-21 20:35:20 hmsimha has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1993 2014-03-21 20:35:42 <midnightmagic> esp. for pools who can collect their own fees and stubbornly refuse to pay from coinbase
1994 2014-03-21 20:37:11 Guest88794 has quit (Client Quit)
1995 2014-03-21 20:37:11 <dgenr8> can starbucks ever take bitcoin, the way things are now?
1996 2014-03-21 20:37:43 <midnightmagic> Sure. I bet the risk could even be measured and compared with the risk of taking counterfeit money, which no employee basically anywhere is qualified to appraise.
1997 2014-03-21 20:38:01 <num1> a better question is McDonalds. They pay their processors a lot of money and can charge your card in about 2 seconds
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2001 2014-03-21 20:38:46 <dgenr8> now there's an interesing challenge
2002 2014-03-21 20:39:20 SoftwareMechanic has joined
2003 2014-03-21 20:39:47 <num1> I wonder if you can create a VisaNet of bitcoin. The major payment processors connect to each other directly and send around transactions
2004 2014-03-21 20:39:54 <num1> no, they would have to trust each other
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2014 2014-03-21 20:44:22 <num1> this sounds like a service pool operators could sell
2015 2014-03-21 20:45:57 <num1> if you send us a transaction and pay an additional fee we'll make sure it gets into our next block
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2020 2014-03-21 20:52:56 <maaku> jgarzik: thanks, it was the sighash serializer that needed fixing
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2034 2014-03-21 21:01:46 <Luke-Jr> num1: already happens.
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2041 2014-03-21 21:06:15 <num1> Luke-Jr, your site indicates you do, does anybody else? If you don't mind me asking, what's your pricing?
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2046 2014-03-21 21:07:00 <Luke-Jr> num1: we don't at the moment, actually. but technically the transaction fees do that
2047 2014-03-21 21:07:06 ninsei has joined
2048 2014-03-21 21:07:10 <dgenr8> how hard would such a pool look for conflicts
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2057 2014-03-21 21:12:47 <num1> Luke-Jr, the difference in my mind is that currently I can broadcast a transaction which pools will eventually see. But if I can contact a large  portion of the network's hash-strength immediately and have them confirm "This doesn't conflict with anything I know of and I'm now working on it" accepting a 0-conf transaction has much less risk.
2058 2014-03-21 21:15:50 banghouse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2059 2014-03-21 21:16:26 <dgenr8> merchant can only do that after he sees the transaction himself.  but respender has already sent them his alternate spend, paying himself
2060 2014-03-21 21:16:59 <LarsLarsen> num1: that is the key
2061 2014-03-21 21:18:19 t3st3r has joined
2062 2014-03-21 21:18:22 <LarsLarsen> num1: make sure you sent it directly to the miners,  while the person is unlikely to be doing a perfeclty timed double spend while standing in front of you buying a pizza.  But for robots on the internet they will steal your 0.00001% failure rate and eventually you will be broke
2063 2014-03-21 21:19:25 <buZz> this was my original question
2064 2014-03-21 21:19:39 <buZz> why isnt bitpay being robbed blind on 0 confirmed bad transactions?
2065 2014-03-21 21:19:44 <num1> dgenr8, can you say that again but with different words? I don't think I understand the attack
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2068 2014-03-21 21:20:52 <LarsLarsen> The way I see it,  I have enough money to cover a coffee,  they know I have money.  They're just worried about double spend.  All I have to do is freeze some money just like a credit card hold
2069 2014-03-21 21:21:01 <LarsLarsen> with P2SH or whatevs
2070 2014-03-21 21:21:15 <Imbue> buZz: I believe they use alternate nodes to look for obvious attempts. this is hearsay, though.
2071 2014-03-21 21:21:31 <buZz> ah, that would be clever, yes
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2073 2014-03-21 21:21:39 <LarsLarsen> Then if I fuck them on the coffee,  it triggers some contract I have with them and they take it
2074 2014-03-21 21:21:41 <num1> LarsLarsen, not necessarily. 1) the person buying electronics at best buy (because nobody is going to go through all this effort for $3) has a window in the decade of seconds currently which
2075 2014-03-21 21:22:10 Evolyn_ has joined
2076 2014-03-21 21:22:16 <LarsLarsen> num1: if you have lower latency to china from your cell phone than best buy has on their store network you deserve it
2077 2014-03-21 21:22:23 <num1> 2) if you charge a fee then you don't have to be perfect, you just have to keep your fee above your failure rate
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2079 2014-03-21 21:22:36 <num1> LarsLarsen, you wouldn't perform the attack with your phone
2080 2014-03-21 21:22:42 <Imbue> num1: message cut off. currently which...
2081 2014-03-21 21:22:43 <num1> you'd simply trigger it
2082 2014-03-21 21:22:49 t3st3r has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2083 2014-03-21 21:22:55 <num1> "hey server of mine, it's go time"
2084 2014-03-21 21:23:17 <buZz> its not so hard to get better internet on a phone compared to a store network
2085 2014-03-21 21:23:26 <num1> ++
2086 2014-03-21 21:23:36 <LarsLarsen> You know how like college students get secured credit cards?
2087 2014-03-21 21:23:43 <buZz> one ssh session away and 10gbit ..
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2090 2014-03-21 21:24:35 <num1> dgenr8, From what I can tell the attack you mentioned can be prevented by, as the merchant, accepting a transaction from your client which you then give the payment processor to verify/inject
2091 2014-03-21 21:24:56 <LarsLarsen> Its like that,  you have a prearranged contract with the vendor... so if you want to buy something NOW you can say here is my transaction,  broadcast it,  and here is the complex contract magic armwaving that allows you to take money from my escrowed funds should this transaction orphan
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2094 2014-03-21 21:25:30 <num1> although you brought up a good point LarsLarsen. If we're eating at a restaurant that's plenty of time for a transaction to confirm
2095 2014-03-21 21:25:38 <num1> just pay upfront and accept the money immediately
2096 2014-03-21 21:25:41 <dgenr8> that's all great.  except it's not bitcoin.  it's Visa/MC/Amex
2097 2014-03-21 21:25:43 Evolyn has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2098 2014-03-21 21:25:49 <num1> then you still have them in case it fails
2099 2014-03-21 21:26:25 ybin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2100 2014-03-21 21:26:26 <olalonde> do blocks contain any sort of timestamp?
2101 2014-03-21 21:26:35 <LarsLarsen> well,  mcdonalds doesn't need bitcoin,  because they have secure networks
2102 2014-03-21 21:26:38 <num1> dgenr8, it's still bitcoin I think. In involves trust but only with other people you have business relationships with
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2107 2014-03-21 21:27:04 <num1> people still have their nice fixed money supply and full control over their private keys
2108 2014-03-21 21:27:19 <num1> this just greases the wheels a little bit
2109 2014-03-21 21:27:55 <LarsLarsen> bitcoin doesnt HAVE to replace visa,  or anything
2110 2014-03-21 21:27:59 <dgenr8> midnightmagic: i'd like to think we can do better than telling merchants they will need to take some level of losses on "counterfeit" bitcoin
2111 2014-03-21 21:27:59 <olalonde> I think not...
2112 2014-03-21 21:28:06 <LarsLarsen> it is its own category,  so it doesnt have to replace shit
2113 2014-03-21 21:28:08 <LarsLarsen> it can just be
2114 2014-03-21 21:28:11 <num1> olalonde, I think so
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2116 2014-03-21 21:28:21 <num1> olalonde, lemme find it
2117 2014-03-21 21:28:24 <LarsLarsen> honey badger
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2119 2014-03-21 21:28:36 <midnightmagic> dgenr8: Well, they could always offload some trust.
2120 2014-03-21 21:28:55 <num1> actually they have to in order to adjust the difficulty
2121 2014-03-21 21:29:09 <olalonde> ok
2122 2014-03-21 21:29:23 <num1> olalonde, dude literally the first result for "bitcoin block timestamp"
2123 2014-03-21 21:29:29 <num1> I'm not even gonna give you the link
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2125 2014-03-21 21:30:09 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: why?
2126 2014-03-21 21:30:21 <olalonde> right
2127 2014-03-21 21:30:22 <olalonde> but how does the network agree on valid timestamps?
2128 2014-03-21 21:30:23 <olalonde> ok reading that num1 :P
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2130 2014-03-21 21:30:30 <LarsLarsen> it doesnt
2131 2014-03-21 21:30:34 <LarsLarsen> it has no need to
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2133 2014-03-21 21:30:55 <LarsLarsen> the block generation is the only ordering there is
2134 2014-03-21 21:31:01 <num1> olalonde, I think miners only accept blocks which have timestamps within some window of theirs
2135 2014-03-21 21:31:23 ninsei has joined
2136 2014-03-21 21:31:24 <LarsLarsen> num1: yes,  and it tracks how long they've been laying around,  its for practicality I think
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2138 2014-03-21 21:31:25 <num1> LarsLarsen, it has definite need to, in order to keep the "one block every 10 minutes" rule
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2143 2014-03-21 21:31:53 <olalonde> LarsLarsen: couldn't a malicious miner set the timestamp to previous timestamp + BIG_NUMBER … so that the difficulty decreases?
2144 2014-03-21 21:32:01 <LarsLarsen> num1: obviously,  but only locally.  It doesnt trust anyone else's time,  or does it?
2145 2014-03-21 21:32:28 <LarsLarsen> num1: nvm,  its probably using block timestamps from the miners
2146 2014-03-21 21:32:39 <LarsLarsen> duh
2147 2014-03-21 21:32:39 <Imbue> olalonde: there are protections against this.
2148 2014-03-21 21:32:43 <olalonde> at next adjustement
2149 2014-03-21 21:33:03 <Imbue> block timestamp cannot be more than 2 hours in the future (as defined by nodes i believe)
2150 2014-03-21 21:33:20 <olalonde> ah ok I see
2151 2014-03-21 21:33:29 <Imbue> also, blocks can be 'before' previous blocks such that an honest miner can push the time back to the regular
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2153 2014-03-21 21:33:52 <Imbue> within bounds
2154 2014-03-21 21:33:58 <olalonde> makes sense
2155 2014-03-21 21:34:01 <num1> that's interesting
2156 2014-03-21 21:34:08 <num1> I wonder how many inversions there are
2157 2014-03-21 21:34:10 <Imbue> it comes up all the time
2158 2014-03-21 21:34:12 <Imbue> loads
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2160 2014-03-21 21:35:02 <LarsLarsen> olalonde: the frequency with which recalculation happens is fixed on a large time scale,  you could only shift your clock a little bit and still get away as "lag"
2161 2014-03-21 21:35:08 <Imbue> let me clarify. block timestamp can be < previous block (lower in height) timestamp.
2162 2014-03-21 21:35:15 _alp_ has joined
2163 2014-03-21 21:35:26 <Imbue> i should really type my messages into text editor first or something.
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2165 2014-03-21 21:36:04 <LarsLarsen> olalonde: there are some coins that had problems with huge mining pools leaving them and not being able to process any blocks,  because the difficlty adjustment happens every certain number of blocks,  not certain of amount of time.  BECAUSE that is an attack vector
2166 2014-03-21 21:36:32 <olalonde> yes.. if there is only a 2 hours window makes sense
2167 2014-03-21 21:36:32 <olalonde> you could shift it by a lot if you could timestamp 1000 years in the future :P
2168 2014-03-21 21:36:44 <LarsLarsen> and some alttards tried to "fix" it and ended up getting exploited by "time traveling" attacks
2169 2014-03-21 21:37:26 <LarsLarsen> the timestamps really dont play a big role  they're primarily used for the "has it been 2 weeks yet" and the "how old is this unmined transaction?"
2170 2014-03-21 21:37:46 <LarsLarsen> and telling you how many blocks you have left to download :)
2171 2014-03-21 21:38:30 <num1> LarsLarsen, that's actually really funny
2172 2014-03-21 21:38:41 <num1> what are the chances you have a source I could go laugh at?
2173 2014-03-21 21:38:50 <olalonde> so it seems the timestamp is verified only by "full nodes" if I am correct but is not verified when downloading the blockchain for example
2174 2014-03-21 21:38:50 <olalonde> if that makes sense
2175 2014-03-21 21:38:50 <olalonde> i meant, by miners
2176 2014-03-21 21:38:50 <olalonde> anyways
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2178 2014-03-21 21:39:06 <num1> olalonde, yeah
2179 2014-03-21 21:39:09 <LarsLarsen> num1: google it,  it happened to several,  coingen.io makes sha coins that are designed to get difficulty "dumped"
2180 2014-03-21 21:41:00 <LarsLarsen> olalonde: there are rules for timestamps.  They have to be in order basically.  The miners have their own rules too.  But its not really important at all.  Whats important to remember is that timestamps don't equate to actual time in the real world.  Or even to the order things happened in.
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2183 2014-03-21 21:41:54 <LarsLarsen> olalonde: the important part is that they come in as an out-of-order ledger,  you dont know which transaction came first,  if you got two,  you wouldnt know which was legit and which was the double spend.  Thats why each miner is mining his own block,  they could differ,  but they quickly share and come to agreement on it
2184 2014-03-21 21:42:41 <LarsLarsen> and it doesnt matter which contents of a block (transactions) happen to be in the block that gets solved as long as they're all valid
2185 2014-03-21 21:42:59 <olalonde> yes what i meant is the verification is done at the time the block is propagated but cannot be done retroactively (except for the "in order" rule)
2186 2014-03-21 21:42:59 <olalonde> sure
2187 2014-03-21 21:43:00 <LarsLarsen> those are arbitrarily chosen as the next ordered set in the ledger,  and so on
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2189 2014-03-21 21:43:48 <LarsLarsen> So like,  nobody can know if  I'm spending somewhere else right now
2190 2014-03-21 21:43:57 <LarsLarsen> but the miner who's mining that block knows I have at most one spend in his block
2191 2014-03-21 21:44:05 <LarsLarsen> and thats all that gets published,  cause he just solved it
2192 2014-03-21 21:44:07 <olalonde> ok
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2195 2014-03-21 21:44:15 <LarsLarsen> its the essence of the utility of the thing
2196 2014-03-21 21:44:46 <LarsLarsen> you can have a bunch of out-of-order stuff (no timestamp can save you here) that we need to cement into an ordered list by nothing more than democratic consensus
2197 2014-03-21 21:45:03 roboaunt has joined
2198 2014-03-21 21:45:06 <LarsLarsen> its hard,  thats why its so cool ;)
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2200 2014-03-21 21:45:32 <olalonde> if i understand correctly… blocks in the blockchain are not ordered by time up to a certain number of blocks before
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2206 2014-03-21 21:46:14 <LarsLarsen> there are two things I'm describing here
2207 2014-03-21 21:46:18 <LarsLarsen> transactions,  and blocks
2208 2014-03-21 21:46:21 <Imbue> it's all on the wiki
2209 2014-03-21 21:46:25 <Imbue> ;;bc,wiki Block timestamp
2210 2014-03-21 21:46:26 <LarsLarsen> yes
2211 2014-03-21 21:46:26 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_timestamp | Jan 13, 2011 ... Each block contains a Unix time timestamp. In addition to serving as a source of variation for the block hash, there are also validity checks, that ...
2212 2014-03-21 21:46:32 <olalonde> yes, I understand transactions
2213 2014-03-21 21:46:41 <LarsLarsen> transactions go out in an unordered list,  and are stored on each full node (minders
2214 2014-03-21 21:46:47 <LarsLarsen> and they are assembled into blocks
2215 2014-03-21 21:47:00 <LarsLarsen> at whcih point they are added to the chain and (eventually) become a permanent ordered list
2216 2014-03-21 21:47:04 <LarsLarsen> go read it all right now ;)
2217 2014-03-21 21:47:14 <olalonde> Imbue: just trying to validate if I understood correctly :)
2218 2014-03-21 21:47:38 <LarsLarsen> yeah you have it basically
2219 2014-03-21 21:47:54 <LarsLarsen> except the blocks are ordered,  numbered even
2220 2014-03-21 21:48:10 <LarsLarsen> the transactions are unordered,  until they get included in a block
2221 2014-03-21 21:48:28 <LarsLarsen> because they're coming from a large p2p mesh network and may have been relayed several times before getting there
2222 2014-03-21 21:48:46 <LarsLarsen> each time being validated
2223 2014-03-21 21:49:28 <olalonde> seems like a block could have a timestamp smaller then some of the 11 blocks before it but must have a timestamp greater then the 12th block before it
2224 2014-03-21 21:49:54 <LarsLarsen> thats so you cant break the 2 week recalc I think,  but I'm not sure
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2226 2014-03-21 21:50:50 <olalonde> i guess that's not exactly right either
2227 2014-03-21 21:50:50 <olalonde> I'd be curious to see how far back you can go in the blockchain and find blocks with a smaller timestamp
2228 2014-03-21 21:50:55 <LarsLarsen> like if you have a large percentage of the network you could force everyone else to mine on a different difficulty if you could time travel too far
2229 2014-03-21 21:51:18 <olalonde> right
2230 2014-03-21 21:51:18 <olalonde> well, seems it works in practice
2231 2014-03-21 21:51:30 <olalonde> would be interesting to see a more formal analysis, but thats out of my league :P
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2234 2014-03-21 21:51:56 <LarsLarsen> the timestamps aren't allowed if they're wacky,  pretty much every node has a valid clock,  and when they dont,  the network ignores everything they do,  basically
2235 2014-03-21 21:52:03 <LarsLarsen> most wrong clocks are WILDLY wrong
2236 2014-03-21 21:52:06 <LarsLarsen> so its not a problem
2237 2014-03-21 21:52:29 <LarsLarsen> in fact it throws a warning if it thinks your clock is too far off from the network when it loads
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2239 2014-03-21 21:53:29 <olalonde> the wiki says a block's timestamp should be greater than the median of the previous 11 blocks
2240 2014-03-21 21:54:15 <olalonde> so basically, timestamp greater then half the previous 11 blocks
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2243 2014-03-21 21:55:27 <dgenr8> Luke-Jr: that question makes me feel like the guy in breaking away
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2249 2014-03-21 21:55:53 <dgenr8> when the italians stuck a bike pump in his spokes
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2251 2014-03-21 21:57:38 <LarsLarsen> olalonde: in otherwords,  about 110 minutes
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2257 2014-03-21 21:59:53 <num1> LarsLarsen, not exactly I think it only effects miners. Transactions aren't timestamped so you can be a node with a wrong clock
2258 2014-03-21 21:59:59 <num1> you just can't be a miner with a wrong clock
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2260 2014-03-21 22:01:52 <Imbue> the miners' clock is checked by the nodes.
2261 2014-03-21 22:02:01 <LarsLarsen> num1: yeah,  thats the only time it gets checked
2262 2014-03-21 22:02:22 <olalonde> that's also my understanding… seems nodes don't need an accurate clock
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2264 2014-03-21 22:02:43 <LarsLarsen> no just close enough
2265 2014-03-21 22:02:55 <Imbue> it's a matter of number.
2266 2014-03-21 22:02:55 <LarsLarsen> the effect of any time drift on the difficulty change is negligible I'm sure
2267 2014-03-21 22:03:04 <Imbue> if all nodes have inaccurate clocks things go wrong.
2268 2014-03-21 22:03:11 <LarsLarsen> I've never heard anyone express concern about it and I'm sure satoshi has that nailed down pretty tight
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2272 2014-03-21 22:03:22 <Imbue> if your node has a wrong clock then i believe that because you use network average it shouldn't matter.
2273 2014-03-21 22:03:38 <LarsLarsen> yes you'd have to conspire
2274 2014-03-21 22:03:59 <LarsLarsen> its  51% attack,  but nodes dont want to do that.  They're adversarial
2275 2014-03-21 22:04:12 <LarsLarsen> I'm surprised they're not cutting each other's fiber trunks with axes :)
2276 2014-03-21 22:04:20 <olalonde> i meant, they don't need a clock.. but I guess you are helping the network by having one ;p
2277 2014-03-21 22:04:36 <LarsLarsen> its needed for the recalc
2278 2014-03-21 22:04:45 grandmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2279 2014-03-21 22:04:45 <LarsLarsen> but otherwise you could just not use it I think...
2280 2014-03-21 22:04:55 <LarsLarsen> time is not important in bitcoin :)
2281 2014-03-21 22:05:03 <Imbue> i believe it would be correct to say that you are harming the network by having (largely) incorrect time set, but i'm not sure how the network-adjusted time algo works.
2282 2014-03-21 22:05:13 <LarsLarsen> there is a good video on youtube thats 22mins long that explains how bitcoin works under the  hood
2283 2014-03-21 22:05:22 <CodeShark> time is important only because of the need for a predictable generation rate
2284 2014-03-21 22:05:23 <LarsLarsen> no mention of time :)
2285 2014-03-21 22:05:37 <Imbue> if it uses a median simply as the wiki says it shouldn't matter.
2286 2014-03-21 22:05:40 <LarsLarsen> codeshark: exactly
2287 2014-03-21 22:05:46 <LarsLarsen> codeshark: and only there,  amazingly
2288 2014-03-21 22:06:00 <CodeShark> what fundamentally matters is order consensus, not time consensus
2289 2014-03-21 22:06:19 <olalonde> as long as most miners use a correct clock i dont think it would be an issue
2290 2014-03-21 22:07:18 <olalonde> yep.. time is just important for adjusting difficulty
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2292 2014-03-21 22:07:48 <CodeShark> it doesn't really matter whether one transation happened earlier in time than another - what matters is if everyone agrees to sort it before
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2294 2014-03-21 22:08:13 <olalonde> is there any safeguard against having a block with a huge timestamp
2295 2014-03-21 22:08:13 <olalonde> like block is invalid if timestamp is much larger then previous block
2296 2014-03-21 22:08:35 <Imbue> no, because that would mean the network could statistically die forever.
2297 2014-03-21 22:08:53 <Imbue> if a block took too long then you have hardcoded future blocks to never be accepted. lol.
2298 2014-03-21 22:09:03 <Imbue> it uses network adjusted time as earlier stated.
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2301 2014-03-21 22:09:34 <Imbue> if you mine a block with timestamp 23 March and push it to the network, my node will find net-avg-time, and say 'that's not a valid block, GTFO'.
2302 2014-03-21 22:10:36 <olalonde> interesting
2303 2014-03-21 22:10:36 <olalonde> I could imagine a scenario where most miners collude to disregard the network timestamp verification and start using huge timestamps on block in order to decrease difficulty and mine all remaining coin in 2 weeks
2304 2014-03-21 22:10:47 <Imbue> olalonde: it doesn't work like that.
2305 2014-03-21 22:10:54 <Imbue> consensus is not based solely on what miners do.
2306 2014-03-21 22:11:05 <Imbue> otherwise dogecoin would be bitcoin.
2307 2014-03-21 22:12:05 <Imbue> in your scenario the miners 'mine all remaining coin' and everyone using bitcoin-qt ignores all of these blocks.
2308 2014-03-21 22:12:18 <Imbue> they have created an invalid fork, if you could put it that way
2309 2014-03-21 22:12:27 <olalonde> Imbue: what would prevent that from happening assuming you have a majority of miners doing that?
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2311 2014-03-21 22:12:35 <Imbue> olalonde: the blocks will not be accepted!
2312 2014-03-21 22:12:53 <Imbue> it's exactly what prevents them from mining coinbase 10000 BTC or block size 5MB or any number of things...
2313 2014-03-21 22:13:13 <olalonde> that i understand.. you can verify that stuff offline
2314 2014-03-21 22:13:19 <olalonde> or later
2315 2014-03-21 22:13:34 <olalonde> how do can i verify block 005 used a valide timestamp?
2316 2014-03-21 22:13:42 <olalonde> valid*
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2318 2014-03-21 22:13:57 <Imbue> olalonde: ok, i see what you are getting at a little bit now.
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2320 2014-03-21 22:14:46 <Imbue> olalonde: let's say ghash goes offline tomorrow and starts work on this ludicrous chain with silly timestamps of year 2015 or whatever.
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2322 2014-03-21 22:14:48 <olalonde> seems, like the network timestamp verification is done at time of propagation right?
2323 2014-03-21 22:14:48 <olalonde> i dont think this is a likely scenario but just wondering if it could theoretically happen
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2325 2014-03-21 22:15:04 <Imbue> their blocks are invalid until 2015.
2326 2014-03-21 22:15:05 <olalonde> Imbue: yes, that's kind of what i mean
2327 2014-03-21 22:15:17 <Imbue> but recall that their hashpower is 2013-standard.
2328 2014-03-21 22:15:38 <olalonde> oh right
2329 2014-03-21 22:15:38 <olalonde> didn't consider that
2330 2014-03-21 22:15:51 <olalonde> ok makes sense
2331 2014-03-21 22:16:29 <olalonde> never mind, my scenario doesn't make sense :P
2332 2014-03-21 22:16:48 <Imbue> basically you're asking why can't i go back to the genesis block and mine at diff 1 and catch up
2333 2014-03-21 22:17:03 <olalonde> so block that are more than 2 hours in the future are invalid.. in that sense, there is a kind of check but it's relative to current time
2334 2014-03-21 22:17:08 <Imbue> block height is not the only variable taken into account for deciding the 'leading chain' (i don't remember the algo right now)
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2337 2014-03-21 22:17:31 <CodeShark> it's simply most difficult chain
2338 2014-03-21 22:17:38 <CodeShark> the work for each block is added up
2339 2014-03-21 22:17:43 <olalonde> oh, there's that possibility also which I haven't really considered
2340 2014-03-21 22:17:45 <Imbue> :)
2341 2014-03-21 22:18:04 <olalonde> but I think the hard coded checkpoints would prevent that
2342 2014-03-21 22:18:05 <Imbue> sometimes the simple solutions evade you
2343 2014-03-21 22:18:15 <Imbue> well, that too, yes
2344 2014-03-21 22:18:40 <olalonde> ah true
2345 2014-03-21 22:18:40 <olalonde> never mind again
2346 2014-03-21 22:18:40 <olalonde> haha
2347 2014-03-21 22:18:40 <olalonde> this satoshi was really lucky or really smart :P
2348 2014-03-21 22:18:43 <Imbue> i believe the long term view is to remove them
2349 2014-03-21 22:18:49 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2350 2014-03-21 22:18:54 <LarsLarsen> olalande: both,  and also,  a time traveler
2351 2014-03-21 22:19:01 <olalonde> haha
2352 2014-03-21 22:19:06 <LarsLarsen> olalande: he brought us the future math
2353 2014-03-21 22:19:09 cbeams has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2355 2014-03-21 22:19:24 <Imbue> LarsLarsen: explains coinbase in block 0 :P
2356 2014-03-21 22:19:28 <Imbue> lol
2357 2014-03-21 22:19:34 <LarsLarsen> it explains where he went
2358 2014-03-21 22:19:42 <Imbue> back to the future? XD
2359 2014-03-21 22:19:51 * LarsLarsen raises an eyebrow
2360 2014-03-21 22:19:52 <Imbue> ok, enough jabber, back to coding
2361 2014-03-21 22:19:57 <LarsLarsen> same here
2362 2014-03-21 22:20:28 <olalonde> same here
2363 2014-03-21 22:20:35 <olalonde> :)
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2375 2014-03-21 22:32:27 <warren> Does any RPC tell you the number of confirmations on a particular txid?
2376 2014-03-21 22:32:44 <daKoder> If I call CTxMemPool::accept from the bitcoin code, passing a new transaction called, lets say TxA, which conflicts with TxB, TxB will be replaced?
2377 2014-03-21 22:33:00 <CodeShark> no
2378 2014-03-21 22:33:07 <daKoder> warren: blockchain.info?
2379 2014-03-21 22:33:14 <CodeShark> TxA will generally get rejected
2380 2014-03-21 22:33:29 <CodeShark> assuming TxB was already in the mempool
2381 2014-03-21 22:34:17 <daKoder> so is there any way to replace a transaction that already exists in the mempool without breaking it? (I'm playing with the code)
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2386 2014-03-21 22:39:29 <CodeShark> the only way to guarantee it is by making sure the newer transaction gets mined before
2387 2014-03-21 22:39:36 <olalonde> bitcoin-qt uses deterministic wallet BIP , not HD wallet BIP right?
2388 2014-03-21 22:39:48 <CodeShark> HD is being added currently
2389 2014-03-21 22:40:02 <olalonde> ok
2390 2014-03-21 22:40:23 <Imbue> it doesn't use either afaik, just generates keys
2391 2014-03-21 22:40:43 <olalonde> ok
2392 2014-03-21 22:40:45 <Imbue> correct me if wrong
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2395 2014-03-21 22:42:41 <CodeShark> the current wallet implementation is just random keys
2396 2014-03-21 22:42:54 <CodeShark> deterministic wallet IS HD
2397 2014-03-21 22:42:59 <CodeShark> well, it's the D of HD
2398 2014-03-21 22:43:11 <Imbue> right
2399 2014-03-21 22:43:23 <CodeShark> the H part is a little trickier to do right, usabilitywise :)
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2401 2014-03-21 22:43:54 <sipa> daKoder: there is some weird old replacement code, which is disabled
2402 2014-03-21 22:45:03 <sipa> olalonde: there is no BIP for deterministic wallets, other than BIP32 (which describes HD wallets)
2403 2014-03-21 22:45:28 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: is this yours? http://bitslog.wordpress.com/2014/03/18/the-re-design-of-the-bitcoin-block-header/
2404 2014-03-21 22:46:16 <daKoder> sipa: Do you know which version?
2405 2014-03-21 22:46:49 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: no, but interesting :)
2406 2014-03-21 22:46:49 olalonde has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2410 2014-03-21 22:49:11 <CodeShark> if we're going to hardfork to change the header format, we might as well fix a few other things as well, though :)
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2412 2014-03-21 22:50:21 <CodeShark> fwiw, I think I came up with a better way to add stuff to a header without breaking ASIC compatibility
2413 2014-03-21 22:50:36 <CodeShark> I'll probably write something up on it soon
2414 2014-03-21 22:50:53 <Luke-Jr> …
2415 2014-03-21 22:52:20 <sipa> CodeShark: merkle tree in the coinbase?
2416 2014-03-21 22:52:26 <sipa> CodeShark: like all ideas for extra commitments
2417 2014-03-21 22:52:30 <CodeShark> nahj
2418 2014-03-21 22:52:36 <CodeShark> in fact, I would like to avoid that as much as possible
2419 2014-03-21 22:52:41 <sipa> why?
2420 2014-03-21 22:52:42 <CodeShark> it requires deep protocol knowledge
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2423 2014-03-21 22:53:03 <CodeShark> ideally we want to move away from that
2424 2014-03-21 22:53:12 <CodeShark> to a model where proof of work can be treated abstractly
2425 2014-03-21 22:53:18 <CodeShark> without concern for the formatting of the fields
2426 2014-03-21 22:53:38 <CodeShark> but unfortunately that's not yet entirely possible without hardforking
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2428 2014-03-21 22:53:46 <sipa> what do you propose?
2429 2014-03-21 22:54:23 <CodeShark> I'll write something up and send you a link :)
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2447 2014-03-21 23:10:40 <num1> CodeShark, what does HD stand for?
2448 2014-03-21 23:10:53 <sipa> hierarchical determinstic
2449 2014-03-21 23:10:59 ryanxcharles has quit ()
2450 2014-03-21 23:11:22 <CodeShark> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki
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2453 2014-03-21 23:12:12 <num1> sipa, from the name I assume the problem you're trying to solve is that wallets require being backed up after almost every transaction you make? This would let you generate lots of addresses from a single key?
2454 2014-03-21 23:12:31 <num1> o even better disregard I can just read this link
2455 2014-03-21 23:12:36 <CodeShark> that's half the problem - the other problem is synching up multiple clients
2456 2014-03-21 23:12:51 <CodeShark> where some might not have signing access
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2458 2014-03-21 23:13:09 <num1> if they don't have signing access what's to sync?
2459 2014-03-21 23:13:12 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2460 2014-03-21 23:13:25 <CodeShark> they can still audit the account
2461 2014-03-21 23:13:31 <CodeShark> track fund movements, balances
2462 2014-03-21 23:13:42 <CodeShark> or process inbound payments
2463 2014-03-21 23:14:02 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: Doesn't most of the network have the same definition of a standard transaction meaning it either will be propogated or wont?
2464 2014-03-21 23:14:13 llllllllll has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2465 2014-03-21 23:14:28 <num1> okay, sure. instead of sending over your public keys every time you make a new one, you simply know which addresses are yours
2466 2014-03-21 23:14:57 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: ?\
2467 2014-03-21 23:14:58 <num1> that's some scary cryptography, really neat idea though
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2469 2014-03-21 23:16:03 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: when I send a tx to Eligius, do they propogate it?
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2477 2014-03-21 23:16:39 <CodeShark> num1: the basic idea is much easier to grasp when expressed functionally than when expressed imperatively :)
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2479 2014-03-21 23:17:34 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: maybe
2480 2014-03-21 23:17:50 <justanotheruser> oh
2481 2014-03-21 23:17:59 <CodeShark> type-2 deterministic chains basically just mean (a + b)G = aG + bG
2482 2014-03-21 23:18:09 <justanotheruser> 16:11 < Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: or you can send it to pools, and design the transaction so that most nodes won't propagate it.
2483 2014-03-21 23:18:11 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2486 2014-03-21 23:18:49 <justanotheruser> If I send it to the pools, shouldn't I worry about it being propogated?
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2488 2014-03-21 23:19:45 ninsei has joined
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2490 2014-03-21 23:19:48 <justanotheruser> Or is it 1) Make difficult-to-propogate tx, send it to pools 2) Quickly make a easy-to-propogate tx to bitpay and broadcast
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2493 2014-03-21 23:20:52 <dgenr8> Luke-Jr: I have another answer for you.  *Because it makes the thing you're mining much more valuable.*
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2496 2014-03-21 23:23:59 <CodeShark> mined transactions don't need to be "standard" to be accepted by clients
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2499 2014-03-21 23:24:36 <CodeShark> as in a different set of rules apply to transactions in blocks than to transactions by thesmevels
2500 2014-03-21 23:24:38 <CodeShark> *themselves
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2504 2014-03-21 23:27:27 <CodeShark> block transactions actually run through the scripting engine - whereas transactions relayed by themselves just go through a pattern matcher
2505 2014-03-21 23:27:40 <sipa> eh no
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2507 2014-03-21 23:27:45 <CodeShark> well, essentially
2508 2014-03-21 23:27:47 <CodeShark>  :)
2509 2014-03-21 23:27:48 <sipa> transactions are validated just as well
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2511 2014-03-21 23:28:04 <CodeShark> only a handful of hardcoded script types are allowed
2512 2014-03-21 23:28:42 <CodeShark> so it's really no different than just running a pattern matcher
2513 2014-03-21 23:29:11 <sipa> signatures still have to be valid
2514 2014-03-21 23:29:15 <sipa> inputs must exist
2515 2014-03-21 23:29:32 <CodeShark> sure, but the signature format can also be pattern-matched
2516 2014-03-21 23:29:39 <CodeShark> and inputs existing doesn't require any knowledge of the script
2517 2014-03-21 23:29:55 <sipa> pattern matching happens on the prevous script
2518 2014-03-21 23:30:05 <sipa> which needs a validation engine to find
2519 2014-03-21 23:30:14 <sipa> *prevout
2520 2014-03-21 23:30:24 <CodeShark> the validation engine is still necessary (as far as managing chainstate and signature verification)
2521 2014-03-21 23:30:43 <sipa> but yes, for relaying extra rules apply
2522 2014-03-21 23:30:43 <CodeShark> but it doesn't require a full-fledged scripting engine except when handling blocks
2523 2014-03-21 23:30:54 <sipa> which limit the script functionality very much
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2526 2014-03-21 23:33:57 <CodeShark> btw, if block transactions are allowed to make full use of the script, isn't the risk of forking just the same?
2527 2014-03-21 23:34:09 <CodeShark> as if relayed transactions make full use of the script
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2529 2014-03-21 23:34:45 <CodeShark> perhaps the risk of forking is less only because there are far fewer "nonstandard" transactions being sent
2530 2014-03-21 23:35:11 <CodeShark> but someone who deliberately wanted to create a fork and found a discrepancy in behavior between two implementations of the script could still do it
2531 2014-03-21 23:35:16 <sipa> nonstandardness doesn't help against forks
2532 2014-03-21 23:35:29 <sipa> it helps against unintended dos attacks
2533 2014-03-21 23:35:56 <CodeShark> for that we might as well just restrict the number of OPs
2534 2014-03-21 23:36:00 <CodeShark> and allow all the scripts
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2537 2014-03-21 23:36:11 <sipa> if you run a full node, you need a full and bug-by-bug implementation of script
2538 2014-03-21 23:36:26 <sipa> i think over time, nonstandardness will go away
2539 2014-03-21 23:36:43 <CodeShark> I just fail to see the reasoning behind not relaying "nonstandard" transactions
2540 2014-03-21 23:37:00 <CodeShark> it seems if anything to only slow down the innovation
2541 2014-03-21 23:37:17 <sipa> belt-and-suspenders
2542 2014-03-21 23:37:38 <sipa> but i agree
2543 2014-03-21 23:37:43 <sipa> it seems unnecessary as a whole
2544 2014-03-21 23:37:57 <gmaxwell> because it limits abusive use, e.g. in cases where we have DOS vulnerabilities that we haven't even though of yet.  It absolutely does inhibit attacks (e.g. malleability floods, mempool stuff that never confirms). It should go away, and it's been gradually being opened.
2545 2014-03-21 23:38:00 <CodeShark> the best solution against script-based dos would be to charge a fee per script OP or something like that
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2547 2014-03-21 23:38:15 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: we have that already. But it's not quite sufficient.
2548 2014-03-21 23:38:29 <gmaxwell> (size >= operations)
2549 2014-03-21 23:40:03 <midnightmagic> re: maaku: oh, can't B enter the orphan tx pool to wait for validation via A?
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2551 2014-03-21 23:40:59 <CodeShark> we already have the potential for malleability floods
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2553 2014-03-21 23:41:11 <CodeShark> even only with standard transactions
2554 2014-03-21 23:41:11 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: what should probably remain in the long term is blocking misuse of forward compatiblity features. E.g. if popular devices/software were randomly setting txversion for their own purposes, we'd lose the ability to use that field to gracefully deploy new behavior.
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2556 2014-03-21 23:42:02 <CodeShark> yeah, I agree - the version numbers are set by the protocol, not the application
2557 2014-03-21 23:42:05 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: Greatly limited, as evidence of that fact that the last change successfully blocked an active and ongoing attack. (and please don't stuff beans up your nose by carefully explaining how someone can attack in spite, I know)
2558 2014-03-21 23:42:30 <maaku> midnightmagic: there is no orphan pool within ConnectBlock()
2559 2014-03-21 23:43:15 <sipa> midnightmagic: orphan pool is for orphans (=transactions with missing inputs)
2560 2014-03-21 23:43:25 <maaku> see main.cpp line 1787
2561 2014-03-21 23:43:53 <midnightmagic> I was looking at main.cpp:327:bool AddOrphanTx(const CTransaction& tx) ?
2562 2014-03-21 23:43:58 <gmaxwell> In any case there are a half dozen attacks which become pratical and cheap that I'm already aware of. Some of them are mostly addressed by a priortized/limited mempool... but I think it's pointless to complain about IsStandard when everyone is interested in widening it and eventually nearly eliminating it (txver, nop opcodes are mostly should be filtered)... but until other things are improved its helpful.
2563 2014-03-21 23:44:32 <maaku> midnightmagic: that's in message processing code, not block validation
2564 2014-03-21 23:45:16 <midnightmagic> maaku: So why would that prevent the out-of-order chain from being confirmed in the same (upcoming) block if the miners saw B, then A, then mined (something) into their next block?
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2567 2014-03-21 23:45:56 <maaku> midnightmagic: transactions are never, ever selected out of order during block creation
2568 2014-03-21 23:46:11 <maaku> and if for whatever reason a block has out-of-order transactions, it is rejected
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2570 2014-03-21 23:47:17 <midnightmagic> maaku: .. I may be misinterpreting what the OP was asking. I thought he was just asking whether A->B can be included in a single block, and then you said that the tx must be in-order. You weren't referencing *seen on the wire* chronological order were you?
2571 2014-03-21 23:47:42 <gmaxwell> dependency order.
2572 2014-03-21 23:47:56 <maaku> no, dependency order
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2574 2014-03-21 23:48:19 <sipa> midnightmagic: within a block, a transaction can only consume outputs created by transactions in former blocks, or by transactions _earlier_ in the same block
2575 2014-03-21 23:48:49 <midnightmagic> sipa: That makes perfect sense. I hadn't thought Ademan was asking that though.
2576 2014-03-21 23:48:53 * midnightmagic shrugs.
2577 2014-03-21 23:49:15 <midnightmagic> he's not in here to clarify.
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2583 2014-03-21 23:55:33 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: your slander is not welcome or helpful
2584 2014-03-21 23:56:23 <midnightmagic> Ah. He was curious about both. He both wanted to know whether A&B could be included into a single block, and secondarily became curious about whether order within the block mattered. I assumed #2 was an assumption in that anything connected in the mempool would be mined in the correct order so as to be acceptable to other nodes.
2585 2014-03-21 23:58:01 <midnightmagic> So I guess, unless *seeing* B first on the wire somehow gums up the creation of a block from connected tx in miner mempool, meh.
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2587 2014-03-21 23:58:45 <sipa> they're independent
2588 2014-03-21 23:59:02 <sipa> incoming transactions go into the mempool or the orphan pool (or neither, if not within policy or invalid)
2589 2014-03-21 23:59:18 <sipa> adding transactions to the mempool causes their dependencies to be fetched from the orphan pool
2590 2014-03-21 23:59:28 <sipa> and for block creation, we just look at the mempool in dependency order
2591 2014-03-21 23:59:38 <sipa> so the transactions can be received in either order
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