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   9 2014-03-25 00:06:54 <sipa> maaku: hmm, a ban score for non-standard tx? that sounds wrong
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  13 2014-03-25 00:08:42 <phantomcircuit> sipa, iirc there's a ban score of 0 for that
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  16 2014-03-25 00:10:10 <sipa> if it's nonzero, we risk temporarily splitting the network with a new version that changes standardness
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  18 2014-03-25 00:10:45 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah i know
  19 2014-03-25 00:10:53 <phantomcircuit> im *pretty* sure it's zero
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  23 2014-03-25 00:11:03 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, i think you would know?
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  27 2014-03-25 00:12:46 <sipa> how about we just check the code instead of wasting time discussing it
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  30 2014-03-25 00:13:15 <sipa> score is 0
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  32 2014-03-25 00:13:50 <maaku> sipa: it is zero
  33 2014-03-25 00:14:06 <maaku> but why is it using DoS(0, ...) instead of error()?
  34 2014-03-25 00:14:19 <maaku> that was my question
  35 2014-03-25 00:14:22 <sipa> oh
  36 2014-03-25 00:14:28 <sipa> error just returns false
  37 2014-03-25 00:14:38 <sipa> you need to mark the CValidationState object as invalid
  38 2014-03-25 00:14:45 <sipa> but state.Invalid would do that too
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  42 2014-03-25 00:16:17 <maaku> which just calls DoS(0, ...); ok, I see
  43 2014-03-25 00:16:51 <sipa> maybe .Invalid doesn't implement all parameters that DoS does?
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 160 2014-03-25 02:23:32 <amstertran> why are the txid's reversed in the hex encoding?
 161 2014-03-25 02:23:35 askmike has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 162 2014-03-25 02:24:46 <sipa> because someone, at some point, chose that encoding
 163 2014-03-25 02:25:08 <sipa> the confusion comes from the fact that in some places, it is interpreted as a number, and in others as a byte sequence
 164 2014-03-25 02:25:32 <sipa> interpreting it as a number and printing that out in hex results in the opposite order as printing the individual bytes in hex
 165 2014-03-25 02:25:51 <Apocalyptic> in little-endian systems
 166 2014-03-25 02:26:03 <maaku> "Because I said so." -Satoshi
 167 2014-03-25 02:26:11 <amstertran> lol
 168 2014-03-25 02:26:25 <sipa> Apocalyptic: bitcoin always uses little-endian for numbers
 169 2014-03-25 02:27:01 <sipa> amstertran: ultimately, "we don't know; ask Satoshi"
 170 2014-03-25 02:27:03 <Apocalyptic> indeed, was just precising your statement
 171 2014-03-25 02:27:05 <Adlai> how's the interest/support for a port of the core bitcoin client to a new platform/language /
 172 2014-03-25 02:27:08 <Adlai> ?
 173 2014-03-25 02:27:25 <sipa> Adlai: platform sure; language hell no
 174 2014-03-25 02:27:51 <Adlai> sipa: why not? doesn't a multitude of conforming implementations indicate a strong specification?
 175 2014-03-25 02:28:13 <sipa> Adlai: consensus mechanisms such a bitcoin are very special in that regard
 176 2014-03-25 02:28:26 <sipa> Adlai: put simply, consistency is more important than correctness
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 179 2014-03-25 02:28:50 <Apocalyptic> sipa, very well said
 180 2014-03-25 02:28:54 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 181 2014-03-25 02:29:01 <sipa> Adlai: nodes in the network must all, independently, come to the same conclusion about which transactions and blocks are valid and which aren't
 182 2014-03-25 02:29:18 <sipa> Adlai: and, unfortunately, that means replicating the behaviour of existing nodes in the network bug-for-bug
 183 2014-03-25 02:29:28 <sipa> (at least the consensus rules; not necessarily implemented policies)
 184 2014-03-25 02:29:30 agricocb has joined
 185 2014-03-25 02:29:39 <Adlai> by "language" I just mean the language used to write the client... if it wouldn't behave the same as the reference implementation, that'd be a bug and I'd have to fix it.
 186 2014-03-25 02:29:48 <sipa> Adlai: yes, indeed
 187 2014-03-25 02:30:05 aielima has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 188 2014-03-25 02:30:10 * Adlai is thinking of common lisp... fuck him, right!?
 189 2014-03-25 02:30:16 <sipa> Adlai: but i don't believe current engineering state of the art is able to replicate the behaviour of something as complex as bitcoin without making mistakes
 190 2014-03-25 02:30:35 <sipa> Adlai: hell, it isn't so long ago that we ourselves found behaviour in the client that was unexpected
 191 2014-03-25 02:30:37 <maaku> Adlai: I'm only wondering why you chose CL out of all the wonderful other lisps :P
 192 2014-03-25 02:30:55 <Adlai> maaku: I'd love to take you up on that, but in PM since this is -dev after all :)
 193 2014-03-25 02:31:52 <sipa> Adlai: that's not to say there can't be other clients of course, but imho trying to reimplement the consensus rules is a bad idea
 194 2014-03-25 02:32:17 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 195 2014-03-25 02:32:49 * Adlai will do it as an intellectual exercise, then
 196 2014-03-25 02:33:15 <Adlai> given sufficient free time, of course. not all of us get paid to hack on bitcoin... ;_;
 197 2014-03-25 02:33:22 <sipa> very few do
 198 2014-03-25 02:33:37 <Adlai> the lucky few :)
 199 2014-03-25 02:33:55 <Adlai> not to imply that talent had nothing to do with it
 200 2014-03-25 02:34:03 <sipa> only wumpus and gavin, actually
 201 2014-03-25 02:34:03 dgenr8 has joined
 202 2014-03-25 02:34:10 <sipa> (speaking about the reference client, that is)
 203 2014-03-25 02:34:26 <venzen> sipa: what about bitcoinj then? isn't that a diff lang implementation?
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 205 2014-03-25 02:34:44 <sipa> venzen: it doesn't implement the consensus rules
 206 2014-03-25 02:34:49 <venzen> ah
 207 2014-03-25 02:35:09 <sipa> well, it has an experimental mode which does, but it is not encouraged, and the developers are talking about deleting it
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 211 2014-03-25 02:37:54 <venzen> thanks, sipa
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 213 2014-03-25 02:39:11 <dgenr8> BlueMatt: or anyone, is this my fault? http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/43d6ff23a23b87fa44a92242a61b9bb3a9c4eb1e/
 214 2014-03-25 02:39:32 <sipa> dgenr8: no
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 216 2014-03-25 02:39:43 <sipa> current git head has broken tests
 217 2014-03-25 02:39:54 <dgenr8> phew, thanks
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 225 2014-03-25 02:48:33 <Adlai> sipa: so would the main concern in this regard be implementing the exact same consensus rules as the reference client?
 226 2014-03-25 02:48:46 ninsei has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
 227 2014-03-25 02:48:49 <Adlai> (this is something that can be "trivially" tested for)
 228 2014-03-25 02:48:56 <Adlai> with huge scare quotes, of course
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 235 2014-03-25 02:53:20 <shadders> I worked out why bitcoind is returning blocks with all 0s.  My blk00000.dat is missing.  Apparently rather than failing it just reads an array of 0s.  Client still works fine but I imagine if a tx ever appears that relies on an output contained in that file things will go downhill pretty fast.
 236 2014-03-25 02:55:03 <shadders> The other odd bit is that blk00001.dat is 229mb whereas every other blkxxxxx.dat file is the standard 134mb
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 239 2014-03-25 03:00:26 <sipa> shadders: that's very interesting; can you file a bug?
 240 2014-03-25 03:00:38 <sipa> shadders: it should fail instead of returning zeroes...
 241 2014-03-25 03:01:02 <sipa> Adlai: trivially? :o
 242 2014-03-25 03:02:01 quijibo has joined
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 244 2014-03-25 03:02:27 <sipa> Adlai: we already have a test system which generates blocks on the fly to test out various scenarios of weird edge cases that were discovered over time
 245 2014-03-25 03:04:10 <shadders> sipa: is the issue tracker on github the right place?
 246 2014-03-25 03:04:11 ValicekB has joined
 247 2014-03-25 03:04:37 <sipa> shadders: yes, github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues
 248 2014-03-25 03:04:44 nakumo has joined
 249 2014-03-25 03:04:46 <shadders> will do
 250 2014-03-25 03:04:51 <sipa> thanks
 251 2014-03-25 03:05:14 <shadders> Been tearing my hair out trying to work this one out for 2 days.
 252 2014-03-25 03:05:41 <shadders> Just going to repeat on proper blockchain db to verify
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 255 2014-03-25 03:15:50 <felipelalli> @sipa, please, where can I found the doc Official Policy of Bitcoin that Gaven mentioned here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3944#issuecomment-38467282
 256 2014-03-25 03:15:58 <felipelalli> *Gavin I mean
 257 2014-03-25 03:17:14 <felipelalli> thank you in advance.
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 260 2014-03-25 03:19:25 shaileshg has joined
 261 2014-03-25 03:21:02 <Luke-Jr> felipelalli: I think he was just politely saying "we don't care what your companies did, this is how we decided to do it, and there's no room for debate"
 262 2014-03-25 03:21:14 greenspa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 263 2014-03-25 03:21:23 <Luke-Jr> felipelalli: also, the companies are PROBABLY wrong. companies like to assert things that aren't true.
 264 2014-03-25 03:21:41 greenspa has joined
 265 2014-03-25 03:22:58 <felipelalli> But this Official Policy just does not exist? I want to study to avoid make mistakes like that in the future. In this specific case there is no "right" or "wrong". It just a convention. The right is follow the convention.
 266 2014-03-25 03:23:01 justanotheruser is now known as just[dead]
 267 2014-03-25 03:23:12 <felipelalli> Thanks @Luke-Jr
 268 2014-03-25 03:23:28 askmike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 269 2014-03-25 03:23:51 <Luke-Jr> felipelalli: I don't care to debate it, either.
 270 2014-03-25 03:23:57 catcow is now known as woollyboolly
 271 2014-03-25 03:24:20 <Luke-Jr> .. except to revise my previous statement: those companies are CERTAINLY wrong.
 272 2014-03-25 03:24:48 <felipelalli> I know the code conventions already (under /doc), but I would like to know if there is any "Official Policy".
 273 2014-03-25 03:25:03 <felipelalli> @Luke-Jr, yes, probably. You are right.
 274 2014-03-25 03:27:15 <felipelalli> Or the Official Policy is the Gavin decision? Understand that I'm not questioning anything, just want to learn. I tried to find all bitcoin-dev related docs, but I did not find any guide to conventions like that. If this just does not exist I totally understand. Thank you.
 275 2014-03-25 03:29:07 <Luke-Jr> there is no document
 276 2014-03-25 03:29:24 <felipelalli> Nice! Thank you @Luke-Jr.
 277 2014-03-25 03:33:23 <felipelalli> @Luke-Jr, if you would recommend me a job to do in Bitcoin Core, which kind of task is good for beginners? See that I am beginner on Bitcoin, not in development (14 years of experience). Thank you.
 278 2014-03-25 03:33:45 basva_ has joined
 279 2014-03-25 03:34:00 <Luke-Jr> felipelalli: unit tests, or a blockchain obfuscator
 280 2014-03-25 03:34:25 da2ce7 has joined
 281 2014-03-25 03:35:10 <Luke-Jr> blkchain obfuscator would just use a simple seed to scramble the block data files, so that someone can't mine spam that triggers virus detectors (or worse)
 282 2014-03-25 03:36:05 <felipelalli> Nice! Perfect! There are any issue open related with that?
 283 2014-03-25 03:36:11 <Luke-Jr> not sure
 284 2014-03-25 03:36:21 <Luke-Jr> felipelalli: or, even just reviewing open merge requests… the bottleneck is usually reviews ;)
 285 2014-03-25 03:36:23 <felipelalli> Ok, no problem, I'll try to find it.
 286 2014-03-25 03:36:47 <felipelalli> Also, it prevents desktop indexers to find ads inside blockchain.
 287 2014-03-25 03:37:17 <Adlai> sipa: link?
 288 2014-03-25 03:37:24 <Luke-Jr> it prevents a variety of nastiness, anyway ;)
 289 2014-03-25 03:37:32 <Adlai> (to the on-the-fly test block generator)
 290 2014-03-25 03:37:43 <felipelalli> Yes, I did it once. But it's hard to me yet because I am unfamiliar with some parts of the code.
 291 2014-03-25 03:38:03 <Luke-Jr> anyone have a testnet node I can add?
 292 2014-03-25 03:38:31 woollyboolly is now known as catcow
 293 2014-03-25 03:38:46 <felipelalli> @Luke-Jr, all of you core developers are full time job dedicated to Bitcoin? This is just awesome. Congrats!
 294 2014-03-25 03:39:02 <Luke-Jr> felipelalli: no, most aren't.
 295 2014-03-25 03:39:09 <Luke-Jr> felipelalli: just 2 really
 296 2014-03-25 03:39:16 <felipelalli> Really? So, more awesome yet!
 297 2014-03-25 03:39:35 Rawdawg- has left ()
 298 2014-03-25 03:41:43 <Luke-Jr> 2 + 1 part time(?) + 1 try-to-break-bitcoin
 299 2014-03-25 03:42:49 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, i wonder who that last one could be
 300 2014-03-25 03:43:16 <felipelalli> me too
 301 2014-03-25 03:43:26 <phantomcircuit> that was a joke
 302 2014-03-25 03:43:40 <Apocalyptic> is that hearn ?
 303 2014-03-25 03:43:41 <felipelalli> magitux? :)
 304 2014-03-25 03:44:53 <Luke-Jr> his name starts with a P
 305 2014-03-25 03:45:15 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, is it petertodd????
 306 2014-03-25 03:45:24 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: pfft, no need to name names!
 307 2014-03-25 03:45:25 <Apocalyptic> Peter Wuille ?
 308 2014-03-25 03:45:32 <felipelalli> I added Hearn just today to my PGP keychain
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 311 2014-03-25 03:45:56 <Luke-Jr> Apocalyptic: aww, what did sipa ever do to break bitcoin?
 312 2014-03-25 03:46:37 <Apocalyptic> i'm not aware of anything, was just guessing
 313 2014-03-25 03:46:58 <felipelalli> Luke-Jr, this guy break bitcoin just for to be unlucky or is he a troll?
 314 2014-03-25 03:47:49 <Luke-Jr> felipelalli: I'm not sure he fits in either category.
 315 2014-03-25 03:47:56 <phantomcircuit> oh ffs
 316 2014-03-25 03:47:58 <phantomcircuit> it's not sipa
 317 2014-03-25 03:48:02 <phantomcircuit> it's me you silly people
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 321 2014-03-25 03:50:30 <felipelalli> @Luke-Jr, let me ask one more thing advantage that you are happy today: I could note that Bitcoin uses few external libs (eg. LevelDB or an adapted python-json-rpc). The Bitcoin team in general prefer to make the things "at home" or is totally open to import external libs?
 322 2014-03-25 03:52:03 <Luke-Jr> felipelalli: depends on cost/benefit
 323 2014-03-25 03:52:53 <felipelalli> the cost would be for example maintain this external lib up to date and free of bugs?
 324 2014-03-25 03:53:15 <Luke-Jr> eh, if it's not maintained, I don't see using it as a reasonable option
 325 2014-03-25 03:53:39 <felipelalli> understood. thank you!
 326 2014-03-25 03:54:27 <Luke-Jr> felipelalli: note GPL libraries are out of the question too, since we use OpenSSL
 327 2014-03-25 03:55:08 <felipelalli> OpenSSL license?
 328 2014-03-25 03:56:06 <felipelalli> I thought it was MIT
 329 2014-03-25 03:56:38 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin Core is MIT license, but we use the OpenSSL library
 330 2014-03-25 03:56:43 <Luke-Jr> which is GPL-incompatible
 331 2014-03-25 03:57:06 <felipelalli> Bitcoin should be BSD :)
 332 2014-03-25 03:57:16 <Luke-Jr> same thing
 333 2014-03-25 03:57:22 <felipelalli> very similar!
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 337 2014-03-25 04:00:21 <felipelalli> Luke-Jr, taking into advantage that you're VERY happy today, let me ask you just one more question (I swear now is the last one): how much open is the devs to code refactoring? Like split big files, improve possible duplicated codes, removing minor warnings etc? Or they prefer to "leave it as is and change as little as possible"?
 338 2014-03-25 04:01:10 <Luke-Jr> felipelalli: change as little as possible, unless you have good reasons and good unit test coverage included
 339 2014-03-25 04:01:33 <felipelalli> @Luke-Jr thank you!
 340 2014-03-25 04:02:07 <felipelalli> I deduced that! thank you. good night!
 341 2014-03-25 04:02:11 <Luke-Jr> we're desperately lacking unit tests :/
 342 2014-03-25 04:02:39 <Apocalyptic> no wonder, it's so boring
 343 2014-03-25 04:02:43 <felipelalli> when someone make some piece of new code, why this guy don't make also the unit test?
 344 2014-03-25 04:03:09 <Luke-Jr> felipelalli: it's boring. though you'll have a hard time getting anything merged without unit tests now.
 345 2014-03-25 04:03:17 <Luke-Jr> Satoshi had zero unit tests.
 346 2014-03-25 04:03:32 mrkent3 has joined
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 349 2014-03-25 04:04:07 <felipelalli> you are saying it's hard to make new untit tests without the basic ones?
 350 2014-03-25 04:04:35 <Luke-Jr> no, I'm saying refactoring requires basic ones
 351 2014-03-25 04:04:45 <Luke-Jr> to prove you didn't change any behaviour
 352 2014-03-25 04:05:14 <felipelalli> hmmmmm!! understood.
 353 2014-03-25 04:05:32 <felipelalli> without theses basic tests it's hard to make big refactorings. nice!
 354 2014-03-25 04:05:53 <felipelalli> But the foundation already thought about to hire specialized companies to make unit tests? It's a monkey job, no one deverve it without be well paid.
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 358 2014-03-25 04:09:54 <felipelalli> Luke, which one is your actual PGP key? http://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xBD02942421F4889F or http://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x665FC11DD53E9583 ?
 359 2014-03-25 04:11:06 <felipelalli> Forget it. I found it here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/contrib/gitian-downloader/luke-jr-key.pgp
 360 2014-03-25 04:12:06 <felipelalli> Luke-Jr, I'm sorry but this key is out of date.
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 379 2014-03-25 04:41:56 <Luke-Jr> felipelalli: what?
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 382 2014-03-25 04:47:03 <SomeoneWeird> ur out of date!!!!!!!
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 390 2014-03-25 05:00:24 <felipelalli> Luke-Jr, that link I sent to you, that pub key is expired.
 391 2014-03-25 05:00:27 <felipelalli> You need to update that.
 392 2014-03-25 05:00:44 <felipelalli> With the modified key with new expiriation.
 393 2014-03-25 05:00:51 <felipelalli> This one: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/contrib/gitian-downloader/luke-jr-key.pgp
 394 2014-03-25 05:00:53 <felipelalli> is expired.
 395 2014-03-25 05:01:19 <lianj> got his new one, hold on… :D
 396 2014-03-25 05:01:20 <Luke-Jr> felipelalli: I see. Not sure it matters, as long as it's the same key.
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 420 2014-03-25 05:28:20 <felipelalli> Luke-Jr, yes, it matters because when I import it my GPG client put you as gray  :)
 421 2014-03-25 05:28:55 <Luke-Jr> so update it from a keyserver? :p
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 424 2014-03-25 05:29:38 <felipelalli> No, when I import from a key server no :) But the problem is that I was not sure that was you
 425 2014-03-25 05:29:49 <felipelalli> I was sure only when I saw that it was the same key, but not obvious.
 426 2014-03-25 05:30:05 <felipelalli> well... update in git if you want :) no problem!!
 427 2014-03-25 05:30:40 <felipelalli> the problem is that you should make a pull request for that? haha
 428 2014-03-25 05:30:46 <felipelalli> yes, so forget it... :/
 429 2014-03-25 05:32:19 <felipelalli> if you want to update, put the link to a key server, so it will be always up to date
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 527 2014-03-25 07:48:18 <shadders> how many blocks was each branch of the mar 2013 fork before it got resolved?
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 532 2014-03-25 07:55:14 <ribasushi> I am having trouble ./configure-ing bitcoin
 533 2014-03-25 07:55:16 <ribasushi> http://paste.debian.net/89651/
 534 2014-03-25 07:55:44 <ribasushi> there is nothing obvious in config.log, apart from the failed 4.8 dbd check, which ought to be masked by the further check for any version of dbd
 535 2014-03-25 07:55:49 <ribasushi> thoughts?
 536 2014-03-25 07:56:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shadders: see if the info is in ,,(lucky BIP 50)
 537 2014-03-25 07:56:43 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0050
 538 2014-03-25 07:57:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If not, maybe look at the IRC logs from then
 539 2014-03-25 07:57:58 <Luke-Jr> ribasushi: boost filesystem
 540 2014-03-25 07:57:58 Krellan_ has joined
 541 2014-03-25 07:58:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ribasushi: looks like missing boost componet
 542 2014-03-25 07:58:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, Luke-Jr already Sao dit
 543 2014-03-25 07:58:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Said it*
 544 2014-03-25 07:58:28 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 545 2014-03-25 07:58:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ribasushi: did you install the boost-all-dev or whatever it's called mentioned in doc/build-unix?
 546 2014-03-25 07:59:11 <shadders> It says what block it resolved.  Just not what time or block is started
 547 2014-03-25 07:59:51 <ribasushi> yes, I have all that, and I can compile other daemons just fine (doge, dark, vert, aurora)
 548 2014-03-25 08:00:00 <ribasushi> Luke-Jr: have it installed 1.54
 549 2014-03-25 08:00:07 <ribasushi> let me get the full log pasted...
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 552 2014-03-25 08:01:45 <ribasushi> http://paste.debian.net/plain/89655
 553 2014-03-25 08:01:51 <ribasushi> ^^ that's my full config.log
 554 2014-03-25 08:02:35 <ribasushi> it's almost as if it completes and then exits 1 for no reason
 555 2014-03-25 08:03:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ribasushi: read the build-unix file
 556 2014-03-25 08:03:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Iirc there was something about 1.54 having a problem
 557 2014-03-25 08:04:12 <ribasushi> well cocks.
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 560 2014-03-25 08:06:31 <venzen> ribasushi: what OS/distro are you on?
 561 2014-03-25 08:07:06 <ribasushi> a sid-ish debian
 562 2014-03-25 08:07:27 <venzen> hmm, what version libboost is default? 1.46?
 563 2014-03-25 08:07:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does it not have 1.55?
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 565 2014-03-25 08:08:00 <ribasushi> it does, upgrading to that is tough, hence the cocks
 566 2014-03-25 08:08:03 <ribasushi> working on it...
 567 2014-03-25 08:08:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What's hard?
 568 2014-03-25 08:08:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is it more than `sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade`?
 569 2014-03-25 08:10:24 <ribasushi> when you maintain your pkg list by hand (yes I am one of those) - it's hard :)
 570 2014-03-25 08:10:36 <ribasushi> anyway - "won't work on 1.54" is good enough of answer
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 572 2014-03-25 08:10:47 <ne0futur> <troll>when you need that you switch to gentoo or mageia</troll>
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 575 2014-03-25 08:11:58 <venzen> ribasushi: you may want to downgrade to 1.4x or compile from source (its not pretty...)
 576 2014-03-25 08:13:08 <wumpus> I don't think it's a boost version issue at all, probably the build system does something wrong or detects a directory wrongly
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 579 2014-03-25 08:13:25 <wumpus> in principle bitcoin can compile with a wide range of boost versions
 580 2014-03-25 08:13:48 <ribasushi> wumpus: it's "sweep under the rug" laziness
 581 2014-03-25 08:14:05 <ribasushi> that is seeing the note in the readme
 582 2014-03-25 08:14:24 <wumpus> ribasushi: yes it is, though debugigng autotools is painful, so it makes sense people try to avoid it :p
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 584 2014-03-25 08:14:56 <ribasushi> anyway 1.55 installed, trying...
 585 2014-03-25 08:15:03 <wumpus> but if you're going through the trouble of compiling boost from source, man, why not just debug the build system and see why it fails with your boost and fix that...
 586 2014-03-25 08:15:29 <ribasushi> wumpus: I am not compiling them from source thanks god ;)
 587 2014-03-25 08:15:32 <ribasushi> also - same on 1.55
 588 2014-03-25 08:15:41 <ribasushi> (absolutely same error)
 589 2014-03-25 08:15:48 <wumpus> have you tried to manually provide the boost libdir and include dir?
 590 2014-03-25 08:16:16 <ribasushi> wumpus: it "yes" -es every library it needs - look at the config: http://paste.debian.net/plain/89655
 591 2014-03-25 08:16:17 <wumpus> (--with-boost-libdir= at least)
 592 2014-03-25 08:16:27 <ribasushi> but let me try that too
 593 2014-03-25 08:16:29 <wumpus> I don't care what it yes-es, it's pretty deceiving in that
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 595 2014-03-25 08:17:06 <wumpus> it can say 'yes' and then note the wrong path/value internally
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 598 2014-03-25 08:19:06 <wumpus> from what I remember it expects all the boost libraries in one directory, so if there is one false positive it expects all boost libs in that (wrong) directory
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 613 2014-03-25 08:40:04 <Jacques_> With multisig, it is a a P2SH address, which is the OPHASH160 of just the public keys and their signature of what? the transaction hash?
 614 2014-03-25 08:41:00 <Jacques_> In P2SH, I don't see a CHECKSIG :/, only a hash comparison?
 615 2014-03-25 08:41:28 <wumpus> hash of the input script IIRC
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 618 2014-03-25 08:42:43 <wumpus> and this input script contains the multisig signature checking 
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 623 2014-03-25 08:44:01 <Jacques_> wumpus: so the input script must put something on the stack that when HASH160'd it must OP_EQUAL with the hash in the scriptPubKey
 624 2014-03-25 08:44:55 <Jacques_> but how do you get that value to compare against first?
 625 2014-03-25 08:45:00 <wumpus> see https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0016.mediawiki
 626 2014-03-25 08:45:06 <Jacques_> I have, its a bit vague
 627 2014-03-25 08:45:11 <Jacques_> (or I don't get it)
 628 2014-03-25 08:46:31 <Jacques_> For example, it says "[20-byte-hash-value] shall be the push-20-bytes-onto-the-stack opcode (0x14) followed by exactly 20 bytes.", but not what those 20 bytes are
 629 2014-03-25 08:47:20 <wumpus> See step 2: Normal validation is done: an initial stack is created from the signatures and {serialized script}, and the hash of the script is computed and validation fails immediately if it does not match the hash in the outpoint.
 630 2014-03-25 08:47:24 <Jacques_> Its 20 bytes of the HASH160 of the scriptSig I assume
 631 2014-03-25 08:48:05 <wumpus> it's the hash of {serialized script} which is the last thing pushed in the input script
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 633 2014-03-25 08:48:54 <wumpus> eh wait
 634 2014-03-25 08:49:02 <wumpus> no I'm not sure actually...
 635 2014-03-25 08:50:27 <Jacques_> that can't be the case, because that would mean you'd need the script originally to be signed by all
 636 2014-03-25 08:50:42 <Jacques_> to which end you'd have to know where its going?
 637 2014-03-25 08:50:51 <Jacques_> 2 transactions ahead?
 638 2014-03-25 08:50:54 <Jacques_> *head explodes*
 639 2014-03-25 08:51:14 <wumpus> yes that wouldn't make sense if you already need the fully-signed input
 640 2014-03-25 08:51:45 <wumpus> but as I understand it, it's a script-in-a-script
 641 2014-03-25 08:52:06 <wumpus> so it's not the input script itself that is hashed, but the serialized script that is pushed as part of the input script
 642 2014-03-25 08:52:08 <sipa> yes, the last push of the input script is the serialozed redeemscript
 643 2014-03-25 08:52:54 <sipa> and the data push in the output script is the hash160 of the serialized redeemscript
 644 2014-03-25 08:55:11 <Jacques_> sipa: but where is the checkSig in all that?
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 647 2014-03-25 08:55:33 <Jacques_> sipa: otherwise someone could just take the redeemscript and spend without even bothering with the keys?
 648 2014-03-25 08:56:16 <wumpus> you can't just take the redeemscript, it is also executed and needs to validate
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 651 2014-03-25 08:56:48 <Jacques_> wumpus: but you just said if you just take the hash160 and push that on the stack it would validate?
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 653 2014-03-25 08:57:17 <wumpus> that's only step two (there are three steps in that BIP)
 654 2014-03-25 08:58:11 <Jacques_> an equivalent stepping process on the wikik (like what exists for pay to pub key) would be aesome
 655 2014-03-25 08:58:14 <Jacques_> awesome*
 656 2014-03-25 08:58:31 <wumpus> yes please add it :)
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 658 2014-03-25 09:00:11 <Jacques_> wumpus: if Only I understoood it haha
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 665 2014-03-25 09:08:04 <Jacques_> what does it mean serliaized script
 666 2014-03-25 09:08:09 <Jacques_> This is already binary data?
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 668 2014-03-25 09:10:34 <wumpus> it means the script in binary form as it is normally read
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 670 2014-03-25 09:12:48 <sipa> Jacques_: the checksig is inside the redeemscript
 671 2014-03-25 09:15:35 <Jacques_> sipa: if only I could just find some examples :S, currently looking at the bitcoind tests, sort of helping lol, but they look completely different to what is in that bip16, mostly using CHECKMULTISIG
 672 2014-03-25 09:16:13 <Jacques_> or is that redeemScript?
 673 2014-03-25 09:16:27 <Jacques_> Which has to pass... to be able ot be hashed?
 674 2014-03-25 09:16:50 <sipa> Jacques_: the redeemscript is the *actual* script, which imposes the conditions under which the output can be spent
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 676 2014-03-25 09:17:08 <sipa> Jacques_: in normal transactions, we put that in the output directly
 677 2014-03-25 09:17:14 <Jacques_> sipa: you mean the scriptSig right?
 678 2014-03-25 09:17:26 <Jacques_> not scriptPubKey
 679 2014-03-25 09:17:30 <sipa> Jacques_: no, the scriptPubKey (in normal transactions)
 680 2014-03-25 09:17:57 <sipa> not talking about p2sh at all for now
 681 2014-03-25 09:18:48 <sipa> in normal transactions, outputs contain a script that defines the conditions under which the output can be spent, and inputs spending them contain the data needed to make those scripts evaluate to true
 682 2014-03-25 09:19:25 <sipa> so, output contaims a pubkey and a checksig, input contaims a signature
 683 2014-03-25 09:19:28 <sipa> for example
 684 2014-03-25 09:19:31 <sipa> ok?
 685 2014-03-25 09:20:46 <Jacques_> I understand normal tx's, scriptSig : <sig> <pubKey>   etc, that makse sense, its that you're putting the redeemable conditions in the inputscript instead of the outputscript that is making it weird
 686 2014-03-25 09:21:51 <wumpus> it only makes sense because the output specifies the hash of those conditions, which prevents messing with them
 687 2014-03-25 09:22:38 <Jacques_> wumpus: right, so now I just want to know how serializedtx gets pushed on the stack, and that doesn't seem exactly clear, at least not that I can see atm
 688 2014-03-25 09:22:55 <Jacques_> uh, serializedsig*
 689 2014-03-25 09:23:14 <sipa> Jacques_: say you want to make a p2sh that simply does check for a sig with a given public key
 690 2014-03-25 09:23:43 <sipa> Jacques_: the redeemscript is: [pubkey] OP_CHECKSIG
 691 2014-03-25 09:24:33 <sipa> the input script becomes: [signature] [[pubkey] OP_CHECKSIG]
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 693 2014-03-25 09:25:10 <Jacques_> sipa: what do the brackets represent?
 694 2014-03-25 09:25:30 <sipa> Jacques_: data push
 695 2014-03-25 09:25:46 <sipa> so an opcode that pushes some byte array on the stack
 696 2014-03-25 09:26:14 <Jacques_> so how does the redeemscript ever evaluate if its on the stack? :S
 697 2014-03-25 09:26:24 <sipa> it's a rule
 698 2014-03-25 09:26:32 <sipa> added by bip16
 699 2014-03-25 09:26:57 <sipa> that if the output scriopt has a special form, the last stack element gets interpreted as a script again and evaluated too
 700 2014-03-25 09:28:08 <Jacques_> sipa: that seems very special cased... lol
 701 2014-03-25 09:28:26 <sipa> that form is: OP_HASH160 [hash([pubkey] OP_CHECKSIG)] OP_EQuAL
 702 2014-03-25 09:28:28 <sipa> it is
 703 2014-03-25 09:29:10 <sipa> but it allows moving the conditions for spending from the output to the inpuit
 704 2014-03-25 09:29:38 <sipa> so the sender doesn't need to know what the receiver is going to do with it
 705 2014-03-25 09:29:44 <sipa> and doesn't need to care
 706 2014-03-25 09:30:12 <Jacques_> sipa: yet the sender doesn't care what the receiver does in a standard tx
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 709 2014-03-25 09:30:30 <sipa> Jacques_: agree, but he does need to know it
 710 2014-03-25 09:30:43 <Jacques_> so that seems like a non-point, this more seems oriented around the fact that script is a stackbased language?
 711 2014-03-25 09:31:16 <sipa> also, and perhaps more importantly, it means the (potemtially large) redeemscript doesn't need to be in the chainstate database
 712 2014-03-25 09:31:17 <Jacques_> (thanks for the help btw)
 713 2014-03-25 09:31:33 <sipa> only its hash does
 714 2014-03-25 09:31:46 <Jacques_> but it still gets in there on the next tx?
 715 2014-03-25 09:31:51 <sipa> no
 716 2014-03-25 09:32:09 <sipa> the chainstate only contaims unspent transaction outputs
 717 2014-03-25 09:32:53 <Jacques_> unsure of what u mean by chainstate, will look that up
 718 2014-03-25 09:32:59 <Jacques_> (thought u meant blockchain)
 719 2014-03-25 09:33:03 <sipa> no
 720 2014-03-25 09:33:13 <sipa> the database of all unspent transaction outputs
 721 2014-03-25 09:33:24 <sipa> at a particular point in the chain
 722 2014-03-25 09:34:01 <Jacques_> right
 723 2014-03-25 09:34:03 <sipa> anoither reason: p2sh means the receiver becomes responsible for the fees related to putting his (potemtially large) redeemscript in the chain
 724 2014-03-25 09:34:10 <Jacques_> its the leveldb
 725 2014-03-25 09:34:11 <Jacques_> got it
 726 2014-03-25 09:34:27 <sipa> the current implementation uses leveldb for the chainstate yes
 727 2014-03-25 09:34:58 <sipa> 0.7 amd before didn't have an explicit chainstate, only an imdex of which transaction was spent where (In bdb)
 728 2014-03-25 09:36:16 <sipa> if we could design bitcoin today it wouls very likely be just p2sh only, without the hacks that were needed to make it (moderately) safe to roll out
 729 2014-03-25 09:37:19 <wumpus> yes the way it is done now is just a clever way to fit it into the current system, which may seem contorted at first glance
 730 2014-03-25 09:38:31 <Jacques_> interesting
 731 2014-03-25 09:38:33 <sipa> btw, the chainstate database implementation also has a special case for p2sh, and it just stores the redeemscript hash, not the script around it
 732 2014-03-25 09:38:46 <Jacques_> why is there a PUSHDATA4, considering the max isl ike 520 bytes? haha
 733 2014-03-25 09:38:47 <sipa> so there is no real cost to it there
 734 2014-03-25 09:38:58 <sipa> Jacques_: pushdata4 predayes the size limit
 735 2014-03-25 09:39:04 <sipa> *predates
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 737 2014-03-25 09:39:25 <sipa> bip62 will basically remove pushdata4
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 741 2014-03-25 09:39:58 <Jacques_> nice! also, why not just use the VarInt instead of 4 different opcodes? (0-76, OP_PUSHDATA1,2,4)
 742 2014-03-25 09:40:06 <Jacques_> (uh, 1-76**)
 743 2014-03-25 09:40:13 <wumpus> Jacques_: there's so many 'why?' about the script system, don't even bother :)
 744 2014-03-25 09:40:36 <sipa> Jacques_: the varint push only goes up to 76 bytes
 745 2014-03-25 09:40:58 <Jacques_> disregard that, I completely ignored the other opcodes > 80 lol...
 746 2014-03-25 09:41:18 <sipa> but indeed, the real answer is "go ask satoshi"
 747 2014-03-25 09:41:19 <wumpus> it's like this because satoshi created it this way and changing would be very expensive
 748 2014-03-25 09:41:22 <Jacques_> but yeah, wumpus, leran to love.
 749 2014-03-25 09:41:38 <Jacques_> learn*** this damn terminal is so slow for input keeps getting out of sync lol
 750 2014-03-25 09:41:42 <wumpus> at some point in the future, when the requirements are perfectly clear, a hardfork with script redesign may make sense
 751 2014-03-25 09:42:26 <Jacques_> wumpus: requirements? clear? ha
 752 2014-03-25 09:42:47 <sipa> script 2.0, p2sh only, with merkleized asts, schnorr signatures, guaranteed nonmalleability, ...
 753 2014-03-25 09:43:01 <Jacques_> sipa: can only hope
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 755 2014-03-25 09:44:34 <Jacques_> sipa: just reading BIP62
 756 2014-03-25 09:44:45 <Jacques_> now half the malleability problems make a bit more sense lol
 757 2014-03-25 09:45:09 <wumpus> Jacques_: well I mean when the area of 'what is likely to be done in transactions' has been explored a bit, so that it's neither over- nor under designed
 758 2014-03-25 09:45:46 <wumpus> trying to design a new format now is like trying to design an architecture for the internet in 2010, in 1995
 759 2014-03-25 09:46:11 <sipa> <marquee> ...
 760 2014-03-25 09:47:35 <wumpus> hehe, yes it would likely have involved a new animated gif format, marquees with extra special physics effects, a blink tag that fades in and out, an <underconstruction> tag etc:p
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 762 2014-03-25 09:48:57 <Jacques_> wumpus: as long as <drm> doesn't appear :P
 763 2014-03-25 09:49:39 <sipa> <web2.0>
 764 2014-03-25 09:49:52 <wumpus> Jacques_: ofcourse, OP_DRM will be an integral part of script 2.0, I do want people to pay license fees for using my transaction scripts! 
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 767 2014-03-25 09:51:48 * midnightmagic shudders at the horrible clamour that will ensue if such a hardfork is ever considered publically
 768 2014-03-25 09:52:18 <Jacques_> midnightmagic: only way to prevent such a calamity will be to ensure multiple clients
 769 2014-03-25 09:52:38 <sipa> a new script CAN be deployed with just a softfork :p
 770 2014-03-25 09:52:41 <sipa> Jacques_: huh?
 771 2014-03-25 09:52:54 <midnightmagic> multiple clients is probably good. multiple mining clients will open the gate to nyarlathotep
 772 2014-03-25 09:52:57 <midnightmagic> :)
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 776 2014-03-25 09:53:24 <Jacques_> sipa: imho, only 1 reference client is just another oppurtunity for an authority to dictate what the majority do
 777 2014-03-25 09:53:48 <sipa> Jacques_: you can fork it, or choose not to run a new versiom
 778 2014-03-25 09:53:51 <wumpus> Jacques_: no one dictates anything, it's open source your know
 779 2014-03-25 09:53:54 <wumpus> -r
 780 2014-03-25 09:54:20 <Jacques_> of course, but, lets assume that happened today
 781 2014-03-25 09:54:29 <Jacques_> if suddenly 100 bitcoin forks popped up
 782 2014-03-25 09:54:30 <wumpus> there is not 'one reference client' anyway, many people are running their own variants
 783 2014-03-25 09:54:43 <midnightmagic> <-- is running his own (very minor) variant
 784 2014-03-25 09:54:45 <Jacques_> which one do the majority look to for 'reference'
 785 2014-03-25 09:54:48 <sipa> Jacques_: a hard fork requires _everyone_ to update their client (not just miners, and not just 51%), so if it's the slightest bit controversial, it just can't be done
 786 2014-03-25 09:54:55 <Jacques_> sipa: you're missing my point
 787 2014-03-25 09:55:06 <sipa> Jacques_: for a hardfork, "majority" doesn't matter
 788 2014-03-25 09:55:15 <sipa> everyone needs to run the same code
 789 2014-03-25 09:55:31 <sipa> intentionally forking is suicide for bitcoin
 790 2014-03-25 09:55:41 <Jacques_> sipa: hmmm, what I mean is, lets say 90% of the world are abiding by what is set out as the protocol in bitcoind
 791 2014-03-25 09:56:06 <Jacques_> something controversial appears, from some shady pricks on the bitcoind dev team (NSA NSA NSA NSA ... jk anyway)
 792 2014-03-25 09:56:09 <wumpus> but indeed, in case of a hardfork *everyone* has to agree
 793 2014-03-25 09:56:15 <sipa> Jacques_: depends who that 10% is
 794 2014-03-25 09:56:37 <wumpus> if it is the slightly bit controversial it cannot happen
 795 2014-03-25 09:56:39 <Jacques_> suddenly, you can either hard fork by staying on the previous client, and get a new dev team together etc
 796 2014-03-25 09:56:45 <sipa> Jacques_: if a few developers or importamt businesses say loudly they refuse to update, what do you think will happen?
 797 2014-03-25 09:56:48 <Jacques_> or, you can follow the new rules
 798 2014-03-25 09:57:25 <sipa> i think it's importsnt to distinguish client developers from consensus rule changes
 799 2014-03-25 09:57:31 <Jacques_> if its something goverment/regulation related, you can bet the split won't be so obvious
 800 2014-03-25 09:57:33 <wumpus> +1 sipa
 801 2014-03-25 09:57:42 <Jacques_> sipa: agreed
 802 2014-03-25 09:57:45 <wumpus> which is why we should pack the consensus part into a seperate library as soon as possible
 803 2014-03-25 09:57:52 <sipa> there has only once ever be an incompatible consensus rule change
 804 2014-03-25 09:58:04 <sipa> and that was an pbvious and totally uncontroversial bugfix
 805 2014-03-25 09:58:11 <wumpus> and mark it with *changes to this are forbidden*
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 807 2014-03-25 09:58:43 <sipa> *been
 808 2014-03-25 09:58:45 <anton000> correct me if im wrong, but hard forks will ultimately be decided by the economic majority?
 809 2014-03-25 09:58:54 <Jacques_> anton000: by the mining majority I guess
 810 2014-03-25 09:59:16 <sipa> Jacques_: No No NOOO
 811 2014-03-25 09:59:30 <sipa> Jacques_: hard forks require everyone to update
 812 2014-03-25 09:59:31 <Jacques_> sipa: supported by the mining majority*, decided by the node majoirity*
 813 2014-03-25 09:59:49 <epscy> depends how centralized the mining majority is
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 815 2014-03-25 09:59:58 <sipa> they just need support from *everyone* running full nodes
 816 2014-03-25 10:00:10 <epscy> i find it difficult to imagine that if 100% of miners wanted a change it wouldn't happen
 817 2014-03-25 10:00:45 <wumpus> if that means 99% of the miners is mining with invalid rules not accepted by the rest of the network, they effectively don't eist
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 819 2014-03-25 10:00:48 <anton000> even if minining majoprity doesnt follow a for.... they ill eventually if the money goes to the fork. i.e. all exchanges follow ne fork
 820 2014-03-25 10:00:51 <sipa> Jacques_: if miners were to decide today to raise their subsidy to 100 BTC, and start runningf a patched version to do so, all of them, what will happen?
 821 2014-03-25 10:00:55 <wumpus> it would be like mining on a side chain no one cares about 
 822 2014-03-25 10:00:58 <epscy> non miners would be left on a fork that doesn't find any blocks, at that point they either accept the change or invest heavily in mining hardware
 823 2014-03-25 10:01:00 <anton000> even if minining majoprity doesnt follow a forl.... they will eventually if the money goes to the fork. i.e. all exchanges follow ne fork
 824 2014-03-25 10:01:14 <wumpus> epscy: that's also like 'what if everyone in the world was to jump at once'
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 826 2014-03-25 10:01:24 <sipa> epscy: it would be trivial to mine that chain :)
 827 2014-03-25 10:01:25 <Jacques_> sipa: people that only want 99BTC would dominate right? :P
 828 2014-03-25 10:01:46 <epscy> sipa: sipa well depends on the difficulty no?
 829 2014-03-25 10:01:47 <sipa> Jacques_: subsidy is 25 now
 830 2014-03-25 10:02:03 <Jacques_> ah, u meant reward, not fee
 831 2014-03-25 10:02:04 <midnightmagic> lol and they'd all be mining on their own little minority-node fork while everyone waited for them to come to their senses..  or a minority of the miners would wake up and realise it makes them more money to mine on the fork that everyone who *uses* it is using.
 832 2014-03-25 10:02:17 <sipa> Jacques_: subsidy yes :)
 833 2014-03-25 10:02:33 <Jacques_> then, they'd hardfork right
 834 2014-03-25 10:02:37 <Jacques_> and no one would follow them?
 835 2014-03-25 10:02:49 <Jacques_> the blocks would just reject
 836 2014-03-25 10:02:51 <Jacques_> for the majority
 837 2014-03-25 10:02:52 <epscy> midnightmagic: we hope, this is really the social, psychological game theory aspect of the bitcoin protocol
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 839 2014-03-25 10:03:21 <sipa> Jacques_: indeed, everyone would just ignore them
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 841 2014-03-25 10:04:08 <anton000> so in the end, its consensus by the economic majority
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 843 2014-03-25 10:04:21 <Jacques_> the node majority* ?
 844 2014-03-25 10:04:29 <sipa> Jacques_: no
 845 2014-03-25 10:04:54 <Jacques_> how can someone not running a node have consensus?
 846 2014-03-25 10:05:00 <midnightmagic> in the contrived example, the number of people following them would be 0 because that is the definition of the conundrum. In reality, I highly doubt a miner would risk destabilization by attempting to push a rule change through that gave them more money. Besides, it turns out nearly all miners are morons anyway.
 847 2014-03-25 10:05:01 <sipa> Jacques_: economic majority means "important players decide"
 848 2014-03-25 10:05:21 <sipa> Jacques_: because this is consensus at the human level, not technical
 849 2014-03-25 10:05:42 <sipa> imagine two parties were to arise, some want a protocol change, some don't
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 851 2014-03-25 10:05:58 <sipa> and they are both completely unwilling tomchange their position
 852 2014-03-25 10:06:09 <sipa> it meams the network will inevitably fork
 853 2014-03-25 10:06:15 <anton000> i.e. if facebook, google, microsoft, twitter, decided to abandon icann and create thier own dns system because icann is being evil it ill happen.
 854 2014-03-25 10:06:40 * midnightmagic prepares to maintain bitcoins on multiple forks and wait for one to wither and die.
 855 2014-03-25 10:09:15 <epscy> i'm just not sure we can rely on people to rational in that situation (particularly if mining is highly centralized)
 856 2014-03-25 10:09:25 <epscy> but i guess this is OT
 857 2014-03-25 10:09:29 <anton000> lol
 858 2014-03-25 10:09:49 <sipa> people... rational?
 859 2014-03-25 10:09:58 <sipa> in bitcoin?
 860 2014-03-25 10:10:00 <midnightmagic> miners... people?
 861 2014-03-25 10:10:25 <midnightmagic> mm..  okay..  bit harsh there. sorry.
 862 2014-03-25 10:11:02 <ribasushi> epscy: anton's is a reasonable question, I am not sure why you are dismissing it (or it seems you do). Say eligius and ghash decide to alter the rules, and announce to all their miners "upgrade to bfgcoin 1.0 because X and Y, and OH 50btc for another year"
 863 2014-03-25 10:11:42 <anton000> ribasushi...  , it doesn nothing if exchanges decided they ont follow that fork
 864 2014-03-25 10:11:59 <ribasushi> how can they afford not to? (plus ghash *is* an exchange)
 865 2014-03-25 10:12:04 <anton000> becase that 50btc will no be equal to 0 economic value
 866 2014-03-25 10:12:12 <epscy> ribasushi: i don't know what would happen in that situation, if i had to guess I would say the eligius/ghash fork would lose out eventually
 867 2014-03-25 10:12:17 <anton000> ghash is a huge economic vote
 868 2014-03-25 10:12:30 <anton000> exactly what is meant by economic majority
 869 2014-03-25 10:12:36 <anton000> exchange + mining power
 870 2014-03-25 10:12:38 <epscy> ribasushi: but up the numbers to 90% or 100% of all miners, then what happens?
 871 2014-03-25 10:12:44 <ribasushi> epscy: what makes you think the fork will lose? (not trolling, real question)
 872 2014-03-25 10:13:20 <epscy> ribasushi: i don't know the numbers but i am guessing eligius/ghash is not much more than 50% of total hashpower
 873 2014-03-25 10:13:30 <wumpus> no fork will 'lose', how do you define that anyway? the point is that they will both exist
 874 2014-03-25 10:13:39 <epscy> ribasushi: in which case they wouldn't be able to force a consensus and would eventually give up
 875 2014-03-25 10:13:43 <sipa> for a hardfork, mining power doesn't matter
 876 2014-03-25 10:13:43 <wumpus> there will be basically two altcoins, bitcoin1 and bitcoin2
 877 2014-03-25 10:13:49 <sipa> not even if it is 100%
 878 2014-03-25 10:14:02 <anton000> yup
 879 2014-03-25 10:14:02 <epscy> wumpus: i define lose as capitulate and switch to the other fork
 880 2014-03-25 10:14:03 <ribasushi> sipa: ok, throw in the fish ;) https://blockchain.info/pools
 881 2014-03-25 10:14:08 <epscy> sipa: why?
 882 2014-03-25 10:14:16 <sipa> they are economic actors in the game, amd play their part
 883 2014-03-25 10:14:26 <sipa> but they are not privileged
 884 2014-03-25 10:14:30 <anton000> yes
 885 2014-03-25 10:14:33 <epscy> sipa: if there are no miners on a fork, there are no blocks, this seems like a huge problem to me
 886 2014-03-25 10:14:36 <midnightmagic> Nobody would switch because some greedy miner wanted to pay themselves a higher subsidy. The value is based on consensus of value. The notion of value is itself the reason why value persists. Thus it would be a meaningless alteration anyway. Since it's pointless and hollow, and since even if it weren't it would be unfair, nobody would go with them. Also, mining != economic power in bitcoin.
 887 2014-03-25 10:14:53 <ribasushi> sipa: but they can offer a *clear and tangible* incentive to folks to change their clients en-masse
 888 2014-03-25 10:14:57 <wumpus> epscy: you mean, just like litecoin capitulates to bitcoin? :p
 889 2014-03-25 10:14:59 <Jacques_> epscy: until the difficulty drops
 890 2014-03-25 10:15:07 <sipa> ribasushi: i don't see how
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 892 2014-03-25 10:15:07 <Jacques_> and other miners get in
 893 2014-03-25 10:15:21 <anton000> epscy, new miners ill emerge
 894 2014-03-25 10:15:28 <sipa> miners are clients to the full node network, trying to satisfy the blocks they consider valid
 895 2014-03-25 10:15:34 <anton000> epscy, new miners will emerge. as long as there's a penny to earn there's always someone willing
 896 2014-03-25 10:15:36 <ribasushi> sipa: <ribasushi> "upgrade to bfgcoin 1.0 because X and Y, and OH 50btc for another year"
 897 2014-03-25 10:15:39 <wumpus> epscy: stubborn divisions can exist indefinitely
 898 2014-03-25 10:15:52 <epscy> Jacques_: if all current miners stopped mining bitcoin right now, how much money would it cost to find another block?
 899 2014-03-25 10:15:57 <sipa> ribasushi: and those 50btc will be worthless, as nobody will accept them
 900 2014-03-25 10:15:57 <midnightmagic> ribasushi: That does not make any difference to end-users.
 901 2014-03-25 10:16:19 <wizkid057> 50 BTC blocks again?! I'm in :D
 902 2014-03-25 10:16:25 <sipa> epscy: meh, you'll fimd a few who want ALL BLOCKS
 903 2014-03-25 10:16:26 <ribasushi> ^^ QED
 904 2014-03-25 10:16:26 <wizkid057> <troll>
 905 2014-03-25 10:16:39 <anton000> lol
 906 2014-03-25 10:16:50 <Jacques_> Jacques_: money? No idea, but I suspect it would o average be about a week until new blocks would apepar... not the greatest result in history but
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 908 2014-03-25 10:16:54 <ribasushi> also btc does not seem to be at a point where there are detectable numbers of "end-users"
 909 2014-03-25 10:17:06 <epscy> Jacques_: the diff can only drop after 2016 blocks, i'm painting a pretty extreme scenaerio here i realise, but miner centralization does worry me
 910 2014-03-25 10:17:22 <Jacques_> epscy: hence the average wait of a week (1013 blocks)
 911 2014-03-25 10:17:23 <midnightmagic> aside from the persistent value of hundreds of dollars on the exchanges
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 914 2014-03-25 10:17:52 <epscy> Jacques_: 1013 blocks?
 915 2014-03-25 10:18:14 <epscy> midnightmagic: which you wouldn't be able to transfer on the non mining fork
 916 2014-03-25 10:18:26 <Jacques_> epscy: unless they stopped mining on the first block after difficulty adjustment, its safe to assume on average about half way thru the cycle, aka 1013 cycles until dificulty change
 917 2014-03-25 10:18:33 <Jacques_> 1013 blocks*
 918 2014-03-25 10:18:51 <midnightmagic> epscy: Which probably would never exist except in rhetorical-land anyway.
 919 2014-03-25 10:18:55 <epscy> right, 1013 blocks at current difficulty is still kinda a tall order
 920 2014-03-25 10:19:01 * anton000 thinking out loudly isnt this supposed to be #bitcoin-dev ?
 921 2014-03-25 10:19:03 <Jacques_> but isn't the difficulty stopped from sky-rocketing up or down? sipa ?
 922 2014-03-25 10:19:35 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 923 2014-03-25 10:19:50 <midnightmagic> Jacques_: 4x up, 3/4 down max.
 924 2014-03-25 10:20:03 <epscy> which makes the problem worse for the non miners no?
 925 2014-03-25 10:20:07 <wumpus> anton000 +1, this is veering to #bitcoin territory
 926 2014-03-25 10:20:11 <epscy> anyway this is kinda OT
 927 2014-03-25 10:20:21 <Jacques_> wumpus: I agree, but, I feel like you'd scare them over there
 928 2014-03-25 10:20:21 <epscy> i'm in #bitcoin if anyone wants to follow up
 929 2014-03-25 10:20:28 <wizkid057> well, Eligius won't join the crap fork, so, no worries
 930 2014-03-25 10:20:31 <wizkid057> :)
 931 2014-03-25 10:20:33 <midnightmagic> yay
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 936 2014-03-25 10:25:45 <daniel__> sigh, back to work :S
 937 2014-03-25 10:25:57 <daniel__> was an interesting conversation haha
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 939 2014-03-25 10:28:07 <anton000> sorry to be the pooper... but #bitcoin
 940 2014-03-25 10:29:06 <Jacques_> so sipa: (looking at https://www.biteasy.com/testnet/transactions/fc129058bebcd4ba2423cc96dd4fa13b65f471e8bd4f78c98023197e52ecc262) that looks like <pubKey> <pubKey> <serializedSig>, no signature at all? :S
 941 2014-03-25 10:31:21 <Jacques_> with an[] (0?) on the front
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 957 2014-03-25 10:54:03 <sipa> Jacques_: the [] is an incorrectly decoded OP_0 (which is necessary due to a quirk in the checkmultisig code; it doesn't do anything)
 958 2014-03-25 10:54:12 <sipa> Jacques_: the following two entries are signatures
 959 2014-03-25 10:54:24 <sipa> (those starting with 3044/3045)
 960 2014-03-25 10:54:37 <sipa> the last one is a serialized script push
 961 2014-03-25 10:55:19 <sipa> the serialized script decodes to: 2 02359c6e3f04cefbf089cf1d6670dc47c3fb4df68e2bad1fa5a369f9ce4b42bbd1 0395a9d84d47d524548f79f435758c01faec5da2b7e551d3b8c995b7e06326ae4a 2 OP_CHECKMULTISIG
 962 2014-03-25 10:55:33 <sipa> where the two long hex sequences are public keys
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1151 2014-03-25 14:53:18 <talkb1nary> (Probably more fitting here) if i create a simple gamble site. what would be best practice to track payments? using the internal "database" from the daemon? or querying the lasttransactions every so often?
1152 2014-03-25 14:54:24 <sipa> the second, and using that to update the first
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1157 2014-03-25 14:56:14 <talkb1nary> so best is probably to "outsource" the balances into a DB by querying lasttransactions?
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1159 2014-03-25 14:57:23 <Jacques_> sipa: thanks for that break down, is the HASH160(OP_2 02359c6e3f.... 0395a9d84..... OP_2 OP_CHECKMULTISIG)   the hash expected?
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1162 2014-03-25 14:57:58 <sipa> Jacques_: if it isn't the transaction wouldn't be valid, so i assume it is :)
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1164 2014-03-25 14:58:15 <Jacques_> because I've tried taking the hash160 of that, and it doesn't equate to the multisig address :S
1165 2014-03-25 14:59:00 <Jacques_> but I guess thats likely somewhere my fault :)
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1167 2014-03-25 15:01:12 <stonecoldpat> Jacques_: is this the signature hash included as an input to a transaction? have you included the outputs of the new transaction?
1168 2014-03-25 15:01:16 tarantillo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1170 2014-03-25 15:01:42 <sipa> stonecoldpat: he's not computing a sighash, just a scripthash
1171 2014-03-25 15:01:53 <Jacques_> ^
1172 2014-03-25 15:01:55 <stonecoldpat> sipa: ah ok sorry
1173 2014-03-25 15:02:12 ninsei has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
1174 2014-03-25 15:02:21 <Jacques_> hmmm, must be my version constants, the hex is correct
1175 2014-03-25 15:02:40 ninsei has joined
1176 2014-03-25 15:02:47 <sipa> you know that hash160(x) is ripemd160(sha256(x)) ?
1177 2014-03-25 15:02:52 <Jacques_> I do
1178 2014-03-25 15:03:32 <Jacques_> all good, I'm on the right path :)
1179 2014-03-25 15:03:32 <Jacques_> cheers
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1195 2014-03-25 15:14:50 <BlueMatt> cdecker: ping
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1202 2014-03-25 15:26:32 <cdecker> Pong
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1204 2014-03-25 15:31:24 <Jacques_> sipa: :D
1205 2014-03-25 15:31:35 <Jacques_> now... sigHash...
1206 2014-03-25 15:32:01 <sipa> Jacques_: prepare for another level of pain
1207 2014-03-25 15:32:43 B51Num1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1208 2014-03-25 15:32:54 <Jacques_> I just got the 2L water jug. Musics just entered another 2hr mix
1209 2014-03-25 15:32:55 <Jacques_> I'm ready
1210 2014-03-25 15:34:18 <hearn> haha
1211 2014-03-25 15:34:24 <hearn> take a deep breath .....
1212 2014-03-25 15:34:37 <hearn> and watch out for the SIGHASH_SINGLE trap! best of luck!
1213 2014-03-25 15:36:31 <jouke> :)
1214 2014-03-25 15:37:25 kermit has joined
1215 2014-03-25 15:37:42 <BlueMatt> cdecker: pm
1216 2014-03-25 15:38:15 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1217 2014-03-25 15:38:34 <bitblender> ;;tlsb
1218 2014-03-25 15:38:34 <gribble> Error: "tlsb" is not a valid command.
1219 2014-03-25 15:38:41 aielima has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1220 2014-03-25 15:38:43 <bitblender> ;;tslb
1221 2014-03-25 15:38:47 <gribble> Time since last block: 49 minutes and 1 second
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1223 2014-03-25 15:39:02 <ribasushi> the pubkey->address conversion uses multiple hashing rounds - what is the reasoning for this?
1224 2014-03-25 15:39:10 <ribasushi> is there a vague security risk by disclosing the pubkey?
1225 2014-03-25 15:39:16 johnsoft has joined
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1227 2014-03-25 15:42:37 <wumpus> ribasushi: well *if* there is an attack on ECDSA at some point, revealing the pubkey decreases security
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1230 2014-03-25 15:43:52 <t7> what was the longest time between blocks ever?
1231 2014-03-25 15:43:56 samson_ has quit ()
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1233 2014-03-25 15:45:26 <gavinandresen> t7: good question. Should be easy to answer, just iterate through the chain looking at block timestamps and find the two the farthest apart...
1234 2014-03-25 15:45:45 <gavinandresen> t7: might also be a good question for bitcoin.stackexchange.com
1235 2014-03-25 15:45:55 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1236 2014-03-25 15:46:01 <t7> i will ask
1237 2014-03-25 15:46:07 <t7> need some points
1238 2014-03-25 15:46:49 paveljanik has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1239 2014-03-25 15:47:02 <t7> Block 0 was mined 128 hours, 39 minutes and twenty seconds before Block 1.
1240 2014-03-25 15:47:05 <christophe> ribasushi: The ripemd hash was mostly for compactness of addresses.
1241 2014-03-25 15:47:23 zxcvbnm has joined
1242 2014-03-25 15:47:53 <christophe> Technically, an address is QC-resistant where a pubkey isn't. But that probably won't matter in our lifetimes.
1243 2014-03-25 15:48:15 benkay has joined
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1245 2014-03-25 15:48:51 <topynate> christophe: or an address isn't known not to be QC-resistant :)
1246 2014-03-25 15:49:46 Alina-malina has joined
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1250 2014-03-25 15:51:39 <epscy> t7: so the first block after the genesis block then?
1251 2014-03-25 15:51:49 <t7> yep
1252 2014-03-25 15:52:00 <epscy> isn't the timestamp on the genesis dubious or am i misremembering?
1253 2014-03-25 15:52:08 <t7> nobody is gonna beat 5 days
1254 2014-03-25 15:52:28 <epscy> t7: i would be interested in the next longest blocktime
1255 2014-03-25 15:52:33 <t7> 25 hours
1256 2014-03-25 15:52:36 <t7> was second
1257 2014-03-25 15:52:42 <t7> at block 150k ish
1258 2014-03-25 15:52:43 uiop has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1259 2014-03-25 15:52:44 <epscy> oh interesting
1260 2014-03-25 15:52:51 <epscy> that's quite a long time really
1261 2014-03-25 15:52:55 <t7> yeah
1262 2014-03-25 15:53:41 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1263 2014-03-25 15:54:05 Alina-malina has joined
1264 2014-03-25 15:54:12 <epscy> so that's like 10 days after the genesis block?, if my math isn't faulty
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1267 2014-03-25 15:55:11 <t7> 150,000
1268 2014-03-25 15:55:23 <arubi> there's no math involved, since block times are irregular
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1270 2014-03-25 15:55:40 <epscy> well assuming 6 blocks an hour
1271 2014-03-25 15:55:47 <epscy> on average
1272 2014-03-25 15:55:51 <arubi> obviously this is not the case :D
1273 2014-03-25 15:56:02 <epscy> right but normally...
1274 2014-03-25 15:56:05 <t7> epscy: well it will be less
1275 2014-03-25 15:56:06 <arubi> well yea
1276 2014-03-25 15:56:14 uiop has joined
1277 2014-03-25 15:56:17 <t7> you should factor in the difficulty change :)
1278 2014-03-25 15:56:24 <t7> some kinda curve
1279 2014-03-25 15:56:35 <epscy> diff change shouldn't have that much of an effect
1280 2014-03-25 15:57:00 <epscy> anyway i would be interested in the longest blocktime per month or year
1281 2014-03-25 15:57:01 <arubi> well average block time is consistently lower than 6 blocks an hour
1282 2014-03-25 15:57:05 <arubi> that's why diff rises
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1303 2014-03-25 16:15:01 <jgarzik> http://www.coindesk.com/developers-battle-bitcoin-block-chain/
1304 2014-03-25 16:15:04 <jgarzik> "OP_RETURN was originally meant to store 80 bytes of extra data in a bitcoin transaction, but the core developers slashed it to 40 bytes."
1305 2014-03-25 16:15:12 <jgarzik> Battle?  slashed?  Oh good grief.
1306 2014-03-25 16:15:28 Grouver has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1307 2014-03-25 16:15:52 uiop has joined
1308 2014-03-25 16:18:06 <hearn> it's a matter of life and death, you know
1309 2014-03-25 16:18:07 <helo> block 420000 defenestrates half of the block reward!
1310 2014-03-25 16:19:38 Insti has joined
1311 2014-03-25 16:21:52 <JohnKenney> i threw windows out
1312 2014-03-25 16:22:14 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: meh.  Headlines always hype, reporters always gonna look for controversy...
1313 2014-03-25 16:22:33 * jgarzik man-hugs hearn
1314 2014-03-25 16:22:42 <jgarzik> hearn, Thank you for your bitcoin-development missive
1315 2014-03-25 16:23:03 <wumpus> SOCIOPATHIC BITCOIN DEVELOPERS SLASH OP_RETURN KITTEN IN HALF
1316 2014-03-25 16:23:11 <hearn> haha
1317 2014-03-25 16:23:28 HeySteve has joined
1318 2014-03-25 16:23:33 <hearn> from now on every feature should be anthropomorphized as a cute kitten
1319 2014-03-25 16:23:49 <gavinandresen> jgarzik hearn sipa wumpus gmaxwell: I'm putting together my talk for https://citp.princeton.edu/event/bitcoin/  -- let me know if you think there's something I should DEFINITELY say RE: connecting researchers and developers
1320 2014-03-25 16:24:01 <gavinandresen> (briefly, though, I'm only planning on talking for 15-20 minutes)
1321 2014-03-25 16:24:48 <wumpus> I'll have a look
1322 2014-03-25 16:24:51 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, nothing specific other than "please preview the paper with people who know bitcoin tech before sending out a 'bitcoin is broken' blast to the media"
1323 2014-03-25 16:25:16 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: excellent, that actually wasn't on my list of things to say….
1324 2014-03-25 16:26:02 <hearn> ah yes
1325 2014-03-25 16:26:02 <Jacques_> jgarzik: haha
1326 2014-03-25 16:26:09 <hearn> i saw there's a new paper about mining game theory today
1327 2014-03-25 16:26:24 <hearn> it's too bad so many of these discussions were had years ago but only in forums that are impossible to really search or organise
1328 2014-03-25 16:26:31 JackH has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1329 2014-03-25 16:26:40 <hearn> perhaps we need a "in depth technical FAQ" for the website, to compliment the consumer-oriented one we have now
1330 2014-03-25 16:26:57 <jgarzik> hearn, I 100% agree that petertodd is disruptive.  Someone on the bitcore team in Argentina commented to me:  What's the deal with Peter Todd?  It seems he had contributed a lot, but also he is very apocalyptic.  A lot of time he seems to have a negative view of the future of bitcoin.
1331 2014-03-25 16:27:18 <jgarzik> My response:  He is selling his own idea(s) to fix bitcoin.  For people to buy in, you must buy into his "bitcoin is doomed without my help" thesis.
1332 2014-03-25 16:27:50 <jgarzik> I doubt even petertodd  would put it in those words, but I think that is the net result.
1333 2014-03-25 16:27:54 ninsei has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
1334 2014-03-25 16:28:09 <hearn> jgarzik: http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4930963&cid=46554029  (see last paragraph)
1335 2014-03-25 16:28:11 ninsei has joined
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1338 2014-03-25 16:28:20 <kjj> perhaps we need a bitcoin-theory mailing list where things not related to development can go
1339 2014-03-25 16:28:28 <hearn> we've been sort of using bitcointalk for that
1340 2014-03-25 16:28:33 <jgarzik> Some people are a mixed bag of valuable contributions and negative personalities
1341 2014-03-25 16:28:33 <hearn> but it's not ideal either, really
1342 2014-03-25 16:28:38 <jgarzik> Seen this in Linux too
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1347 2014-03-25 16:28:58 <wumpus> hearn: good idea, such a thing should probably be part of the developer guide that is being worked on http://bitcoindev.us.to/en/developer-guide
1348 2014-03-25 16:29:02 <jgarzik> Had several very smart assholes in kernel-land.  (I mean, if you think I'm jerk, you should meet these guys!)
1349 2014-03-25 16:29:04 <hearn> wumpus: indeed
1350 2014-03-25 16:29:34 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: does Linux have lives-in-theoretical-land people? Do they get listened to, or ignored?
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1354 2014-03-25 16:29:40 <hearn> jgarzik: it's always been a problem in open source projects. it's one reason there aren't that many women taking part
1355 2014-03-25 16:29:49 <hearn> (though quite a few have turned up on the bcj list and i intend to keep it that way)
1356 2014-03-25 16:29:57 <wumpus> jgarzik: which makes sense in a way, because if you're too nice people abuse you to solve their problems all the time
1357 2014-03-25 16:30:23 <hearn> you get them in corporations too of course,but if they get too extreme they tend to get fired
1358 2014-03-25 16:30:23 JackH has joined
1359 2014-03-25 16:30:48 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, mixed answer.  contributed get merged, because they are often useful (c.f. petertodd, luke-jr who do have in-tree commits), but their attitude is very often off-putting to the crowd
1360 2014-03-25 16:30:51 <hearn> though there you can get the opposite problem:   people being too nice and never feeling able to say "that work is broken/sub-par" and people taking it personally if their work is criticised, etc. these things are always tricky, especially over email
1361 2014-03-25 16:31:03 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, no wisdom to offer, unsolved problem :(
1362 2014-03-25 16:31:07 dgenr8 has joined
1363 2014-03-25 16:31:13 <jgarzik> as hearn indicated
1364 2014-03-25 16:31:24 ninsei has joined
1365 2014-03-25 16:31:52 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I've been trying to tell Peter "you catch more flies with honey", but I'm thinking that is a lost cause.
1366 2014-03-25 16:31:55 <hearn> well, the solution is that someone imposes a moderation policy normally. not a perfect solution by any means
1367 2014-03-25 16:32:47 <jgarzik> Yah, you cannot be too nice in open source, or you get trampled and used as a doormat.  Linus Torvalds says all the engineering wisdom is in saying "no"  It is easy to say yes to pull requests.
1368 2014-03-25 16:33:16 <jgarzik> But as hearn's most recent link indicated, petertodd has a ton of irons in the fire, and somehow these strenuously argued positions happen to match up with all these contracts behind the scenes
1369 2014-03-25 16:33:26 <jgarzik> Which is fine but IMO deceptive and not in the best interests of all bitcoin users
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1371 2014-03-25 16:33:33 Ursium has quit (Quit: Ursium)
1372 2014-03-25 16:33:45 <wumpus> at least petertodd, luke-jr have useful contributions, there are also enough *holes that only troll around or give 'opinions' what you should do, though less of those on the development list
1373 2014-03-25 16:34:04 <jgarzik> that Troy (Trey?) guy needs to get removed
1374 2014-03-25 16:34:16 <jgarzik> prolific tinfoil troll
1375 2014-03-25 16:34:31 raid5 has joined
1376 2014-03-25 16:34:38 <jgarzik> thankfully the list is mostly free of forum-type garbage
1377 2014-03-25 16:35:16 <gavinandresen> let me know if you want the Moderation Hammer… (although jgarzik I think you might already be a bitcoin-development admin?)
1378 2014-03-25 16:35:22 sois has joined
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1380 2014-03-25 16:36:04 <jgarzik> I think I am on SF, just never got a Round Tuit
1381 2014-03-25 16:36:14 <jgarzik> *as admin
1382 2014-03-25 16:36:15 <gavinandresen> The first time somebody is banned from bitcoin-development we'll get a firestorm of CENSORSHIP! CENTRALIZATION! RAWWWRRRR!
1383 2014-03-25 16:36:16 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1385 2014-03-25 16:36:40 <jgarzik> counterparty is already claiming censorship, so nothing new!
1386 2014-03-25 16:36:43 <gavinandresen> (I forgot FREE SPEECH! NAZIS!)
1387 2014-03-25 16:37:20 <hearn> a clearly defined policy that's introduced with some lead time helps a lot with that
1388 2014-03-25 16:37:48 <hearn> because then people can see that the rules are reasonable, people had a chance to make speech that worked within them, and then it's much harder to claim censorship. if it's just an arbitrary and sudden hammerfall then it can annoy people
1389 2014-03-25 16:37:54 adam3us has joined
1390 2014-03-25 16:38:13 <gavinandresen> I want Jeff Atwood to hurry up and solve the "forums suck" problem….  then switch to that for dev discussions
1391 2014-03-25 16:39:03 MaxSan has joined
1392 2014-03-25 16:39:27 <hearn> what's his solution?
1393 2014-03-25 16:39:29 * hearn has not heard of this
1394 2014-03-25 16:39:29 <jgarzik> hearn, for petertodd types you are probably right.  I think it's perfectly fine to just respond to Troy Tinfoil with "*plonk* you're gone, troll"
1395 2014-03-25 16:40:05 <hearn> best to be consistent, imo. we've gone this long, a few more weeks with a "here's our policy, it will start to be enforced via moderation on 1st May" type thing wouldn't kill anyone
1396 2014-03-25 16:40:17 <jgarzik> +1
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1400 2014-03-25 16:42:06 <hearn> woo. HD wallets in bitcoinj is alive
1401 2014-03-25 16:42:09 abossard has quit (Quit: abossard)
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1403 2014-03-25 16:42:11 <gavinandresen> hearn: http://www.discourse.org/
1404 2014-03-25 16:43:18 <hearn> that does look pretty fantastic
1405 2014-03-25 16:43:36 _ImI_ has joined
1406 2014-03-25 16:43:58 daniel__ has joined
1407 2014-03-25 16:44:20 <jaromil_> even older and more tested http://disqus.com
1408 2014-03-25 16:44:27 jaromil_ is now known as jaromil
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1412 2014-03-25 16:45:37 <hearn> that said, mailing lists have the benefit of being scary enough that people who aren't really technical tend to leave them alone
1413 2014-03-25 16:45:53 Rawdawg- has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1414 2014-03-25 16:45:56 <hearn> perhaps we should have a discourse forum where to get an access code, you need to sign up for a mailing list via mailman
1415 2014-03-25 16:45:57 <hearn> :)
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1422 2014-03-25 16:48:36 <dcousens> hearn: but... mailing lists
1423 2014-03-25 16:49:01 <dcousens> oh, didn't see the discourse/access code part... maybe not so bad.
1424 2014-03-25 16:49:39 <hearn> well, i mean, one reason that bitcointalk -> bitcoin-development was an upgrade is that the random people who signed up to join the BUY BUY BUY threads kept dropping in to the middle of tech discussions, and they didn't bother signing up to the list. but perhaps a forum dedicated to development would have the same effect; not sure
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1433 2014-03-25 17:01:11 _david___ has joined
1434 2014-03-25 17:01:26 <_david___> hi i have a question about code, C++ i found thisI dont know what it means
1435 2014-03-25 17:01:44 <_david___> String^ GetName() { return name; }
1436 2014-03-25 17:01:55 <_david___> simplified, i dont know what ^ token does
1437 2014-03-25 17:01:57 <_david___> wtf?
1438 2014-03-25 17:02:00 <_david___> never seen it before
1439 2014-03-25 17:02:07 <_david___> i know * & -> .
1440 2014-03-25 17:02:14 <_david___> is ^ pointer ?
1441 2014-03-25 17:02:18 <_david___> or something
1442 2014-03-25 17:02:38 <hearn> where did you find that?
1443 2014-03-25 17:02:50 just[dead] is now known as justanotheruser
1444 2014-03-25 17:03:18 <hearn> not in the bitcoin code, i think?
1445 2014-03-25 17:03:58 <dcousens> hearn: Pascal cased function name, on 1 line. I suspect not.
1446 2014-03-25 17:04:06 jtimon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1447 2014-03-25 17:04:06 <omp> hearn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B/CLI#Handles
1448 2014-03-25 17:04:09 <wumpus> I'm pretty sure that's not C++
1449 2014-03-25 17:04:20 <dcousens> Yeah, ^ is reserved for xor in C++
1450 2014-03-25 17:05:00 <dcousens> (unless it is overloaded, of course, but irrelevant if we're talking about types)
1451 2014-03-25 17:05:11 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1452 2014-03-25 17:05:19 <hearn> ah
1453 2014-03-25 17:05:29 <wumpus> oh some microsoft-ism
1454 2014-03-25 17:05:34 <hearn> omp: sounds plausible. or it's a typo
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1456 2014-03-25 17:06:06 <dcousens> omp: ah
1457 2014-03-25 17:09:06 jtimon has joined
1458 2014-03-25 17:09:16 <sipa> looks like a typo to me
1459 2014-03-25 17:11:09 <dcousens> sipa: apparently in MC++ its a memory-managed String*
1460 2014-03-25 17:11:42 <sipa> ok, so it's an intentional typo :p
1461 2014-03-25 17:11:49 <dcousens> haha
1462 2014-03-25 17:12:00 _david___ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1463 2014-03-25 17:12:01 <dcousens> point is, it isn't C++
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1470 2014-03-25 17:16:41 <hearn> hahaha. my first HD test wallet ended up with a seed that has as its last four words  "eager move key fragile"
1471 2014-03-25 17:16:46 <hearn> yes God. i'm listening!
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1482 2014-03-25 17:24:44 <hearn> gavinandresen: so the idea of sorting all buckets together is to make estimates converge faster?
1483 2014-03-25 17:24:50 anddam has left ("WeeChat 0.4.3")
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1485 2014-03-25 17:25:43 <gavinandresen> hearn: yes, and so you don't get crazy results like "pay X to confirm in 3 blocks, but if you pay X+11 then you confirm in 6 blocks."
1486 2014-03-25 17:25:50 <hearn> yeah
1487 2014-03-25 17:25:55 <hearn> that makes sense
1488 2014-03-25 17:26:08 <hearn> i think ...... unless somone actually did implement that policy.
1489 2014-03-25 17:26:09 <dcousens> hearn: haha
1490 2014-03-25 17:26:18 bbrian has joined
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1492 2014-03-25 17:27:17 <gavinandresen> I still hope a smart researcher who knows a lot more about hidden markov models and statistics and other fancy stuff comes up with The Perfect Fee Prediction Algorithm.
1493 2014-03-25 17:27:32 ziggy909 has joined
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1495 2014-03-25 17:27:39 <hearn> your patch has a "// TODO: Remove me" in it :)
1496 2014-03-25 17:27:52 <gavinandresen> gotta make sure people are paying attention!
1497 2014-03-25 17:28:02 <hearn> though i'm not sure why because that seems like a useful log line!
1498 2014-03-25 17:28:23 <hearn> hmm anyway will read through this and try it out later
1499 2014-03-25 17:28:28 <gavinandresen> mmm… remove me will be reinterpreted literally....
1500 2014-03-25 17:28:58 <dcousens> gavinandresen: and so starts the next coindesk headline
1501 2014-03-25 17:29:00 <ziggy909> hi, im getting visual c++ runtime error on exit of qt client, is this a runtime/mingw/boost/something else problem?
1502 2014-03-25 17:30:54 <hearn> haha
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1530 2014-03-25 17:50:56 <aynstein> great, the devs are talking to god.
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1545 2014-03-25 18:00:49 <aynstein>       :)
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1550 2014-03-25 18:05:49 mljsimone is now known as food!~hashdogs@hashdogs.org|mljsimone
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1567 2014-03-25 18:10:32 <espringe> bitcoind is using: 5001m VIRT and 3.3g RES
1568 2014-03-25 18:10:36 <espringe> Is that considered normal?
1569 2014-03-25 18:11:29 datagutt has joined
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1571 2014-03-25 18:13:46 HeySteve has joined
1572 2014-03-25 18:14:02 <aynstein> are you reindexing?
1573 2014-03-25 18:14:26 shadders has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1575 2014-03-25 18:16:27 <buZz> 519m VIRT 288m RES and its been on for 700 hours now
1576 2014-03-25 18:16:44 <buZz> (and not doing anything with it)
1577 2014-03-25 18:16:50 <espringe> aynstein: No, I'm not reindexing
1578 2014-03-25 18:19:19 <espringe> It's funny. My VIRT has increased to 5506m and my RES has decreased to 879
1579 2014-03-25 18:19:44 aynstein has quit (Quit: Ping imout: 123 seconds)
1580 2014-03-25 18:19:49 <SoftwareMechanic> Is there a noobs guide to bip32 hardened keys anywhere?
1581 2014-03-25 18:20:52 coeus_ has joined
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1596 2014-03-25 18:32:10 <rnicoll> evening al
1597 2014-03-25 18:32:12 <rnicoll> l
1598 2014-03-25 18:32:37 bbrian has joined
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1605 2014-03-25 18:39:22 <olalonde> evenin'
1606 2014-03-25 18:39:36 sois has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
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1609 2014-03-25 18:41:01 drayah has joined
1610 2014-03-25 18:41:12 <melik> howdy everyone
1611 2014-03-25 18:41:52 agricocb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1613 2014-03-25 18:42:58 <rnicoll> is there any discussion on what's likely to be in 0.10 yet?
1614 2014-03-25 18:43:36 delta9 has joined
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1616 2014-03-25 18:44:56 <delta9> hello
1617 2014-03-25 18:46:16 <dangerm00se> howdy
1618 2014-03-25 18:47:02 <delta9> i need some help with bitcoind on my vps can you help?
1619 2014-03-25 18:47:02 <rnicoll> hey arrivers
1620 2014-03-25 18:47:17 <rnicoll> alas, I'm here to prod people's brains  too
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1626 2014-03-25 18:50:00 <dangerm00se> delta whats up ?
1627 2014-03-25 18:50:23 uiop has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1628 2014-03-25 18:50:32 <delta9> i have a little problem with syncing
1629 2014-03-25 18:50:47 hmsimha has joined
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1631 2014-03-25 18:51:32 <anton000> full index?
1632 2014-03-25 18:53:20 <delta9> my client is constantly an hour behind the blockchain
1633 2014-03-25 18:54:01 <nezZario> man
1634 2014-03-25 18:54:11 <nezZario> bitcoin-deveopment is better than a freaking soap opera
1635 2014-03-25 18:54:27 <rnicoll> nezZario, what this time?
1636 2014-03-25 18:55:09 <nezZario> see '[Bitcoin-development] Tree-chains preliminary summary'
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1641 2014-03-25 18:59:03 <andytoshi> nezZario: a friendly reminder that people on-list and IRC are human beings who have emotions and egos and misunderstandings
1642 2014-03-25 18:59:20 <andytoshi> which is the subject of said 'soap opera' but also a reason not to gawk at it here
1643 2014-03-25 18:59:27 CheckDavid has joined
1644 2014-03-25 19:00:28 <nezZario> andytoshi ... =) a good reminder
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1655 2014-03-25 19:03:05 <ribasushi> andytoshi: o.O... and I thought I've been talking to robots all my life :/
1656 2014-03-25 19:04:01 <andytoshi> ribasushi: it can seem that way sometimes :)
1657 2014-03-25 19:04:12 askmike has joined
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1662 2014-03-25 19:07:05 <sipa> rnicoll: whatever is ready at the time
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1664 2014-03-25 19:08:36 <rnicoll> sipa, oh, cool, just accept pull requests until it looks good and call it done?
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1667 2014-03-25 19:09:47 <sipa> rnicoll: pretty much
1668 2014-03-25 19:10:40 <rnicoll> sipa, well, if it works :)
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1678 2014-03-25 19:16:20 <Luke-Jr> ;;later tell gavinandresen http://xkcd.com/357/
1679 2014-03-25 19:16:20 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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1691 2014-03-25 19:25:46 <ziggy909> is there a guide to building bitcoin-qt STATIC?
1692 2014-03-25 19:26:06 <ziggy909> im passing -static to linker but it doesnt work
1693 2014-03-25 19:27:17 olalonde1 is now known as olalonde
1694 2014-03-25 19:33:29 windy1024 has joined
1695 2014-03-25 19:33:37 <sipa> there's a pull request for adding support to the buildsystem for it
1696 2014-03-25 19:35:22 <phantomcircuit> er
1697 2014-03-25 19:35:32 <phantomcircuit> why are the 0.9 binaries built against GLIBC_2.15
1698 2014-03-25 19:35:46 <phantomcircuit> or rather why do they require >= 2.14
1699 2014-03-25 19:36:06 <sipa> because they're build on ubuntu 12.04
1700 2014-03-25 19:36:09 <sipa> *built
1701 2014-03-25 19:36:09 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1702 2014-03-25 19:36:36 <sipa> (a statically linked version is being added for older platforms)
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1711 2014-03-25 19:55:59 <sipa> jgarzik: what it you latest tweet a response to?
1712 2014-03-25 19:56:06 <sipa> +r
1713 2014-03-25 19:56:40 maraoz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1714 2014-03-25 19:57:11 <jgarzik> sipa, https://twitter.com/anjiecast/status/448540463503798272
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1717 2014-03-25 20:00:10 TYDIRocks has joined
1718 2014-03-25 20:00:14 <TYDIRocks> I was told that Multisigs are vulerable, and can be attacked with a "tx" attack. He said that Malleability affects multisigs still. Is this true?
1719 2014-03-25 20:00:26 johnsoft has joined
1720 2014-03-25 20:00:26 <sipa> TYDIRocks: not more or less than other transactions
1721 2014-03-25 20:00:35 <sipa> jgarzik: even though the original purpose of libsecp256k1 was experimenting with the GLV optimization that Hal worked on, it's actually disabled by default now at compile time
1722 2014-03-25 20:00:49 <sipa> s/worked on/originally implemented/
1723 2014-03-25 20:01:01 benrcole has joined
1724 2014-03-25 20:01:24 <TYDIRocks> sipa, so I shouldn't have to worry about my transactions if I'm using the most recent core?
1725 2014-03-25 20:01:41 <sipa> depends on your attack model
1726 2014-03-25 20:01:59 <sipa> if you can't tolerate the txid of transactions you create changing before confirmation, you have a problem
1727 2014-03-25 20:03:12 <TYDIRocks> I was told "You're miss informed about multisigs- they're not as secure as made to be believed. There more vunerable to brute force, xss and can be cracked in under 10 hours with a txs attack. We made a webcast of us cracking one with a txs attack."
1728 2014-03-25 20:03:33 <sipa> that's bullshit
1729 2014-03-25 20:03:38 <kjj> don't listen to morons and you'll be much happier in life
1730 2014-03-25 20:03:51 <TYDIRocks> Then again, the reason he told me this was because I said multisigs would be more secure than using his service which stores coins in his cold storage, which apparently is a good idea
1731 2014-03-25 20:03:53 <sipa> let them prove it, if you're unconvinced
1732 2014-03-25 20:03:54 <Apocalyptic> ^
1733 2014-03-25 20:03:56 <TYDIRocks> Didn't think it was true.
1734 2014-03-25 20:04:32 <kjj> have a link?  is it on the forums?
1735 2014-03-25 20:04:43 <TYDIRocks> It was a private message on forums
1736 2014-03-25 20:04:52 <TYDIRocks> I called him out on his thread and he then PM'd me
1737 2014-03-25 20:04:56 vegard has joined
1738 2014-03-25 20:05:28 <kjj> heh.  link up the thread.  I haven't had a good laugh in a while
1739 2014-03-25 20:05:32 _Lenny has joined
1740 2014-03-25 20:05:56 <kjj> where the hell does xss come into multisig anyway?
1741 2014-03-25 20:06:02 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1742 2014-03-25 20:06:03 <TYDIRocks> Yeah I didn't get that either
1743 2014-03-25 20:06:09 jedunnigan has joined
1744 2014-03-25 20:06:43 <TYDIRocks> Note: This forum is full of uneducated 13 year olds lol
1745 2014-03-25 20:06:45 <TYDIRocks> http://www.hackforums.net/showthread.php?tid=4130601
1746 2014-03-25 20:06:54 <midnightmagic> lol
1747 2014-03-25 20:06:59 <kjj> oh god
1748 2014-03-25 20:07:02 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1749 2014-03-25 20:07:03 <midnightmagic> Why do you bother, man.
1750 2014-03-25 20:07:05 <sipa> unsure if i want to open a link to "hackforums"
1751 2014-03-25 20:07:42 <TYDIRocks> The forum is safe, but don't expect many intelligent people
1752 2014-03-25 20:07:53 <TYDIRocks> There are a few people who know shit, but not much
1753 2014-03-25 20:08:16 <kjj> aww, requires registration to read
1754 2014-03-25 20:08:27 <TYDIRocks> I can C+P the text
1755 2014-03-25 20:08:29 <TYDIRocks> if you'd like
1756 2014-03-25 20:08:37 <kjj> and just like that this project has exceeded my apathy level
1757 2014-03-25 20:09:04 <TYDIRocks> http://pastebin.com/gWVKPcEc
1758 2014-03-25 20:10:07 JackH has quit (Quit: JackH)
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1760 2014-03-25 20:11:14 <kjj> well, nothing says trustworthy cold storage quite like "hackforums.net"
1761 2014-03-25 20:11:38 <TYDIRocks> Haha ikr
1762 2014-03-25 20:11:42 <midnightmagic> I want to reconstruct my offline and dump everything in there pronto!
1763 2014-03-25 20:11:55 <dugo> why is it that I have a problem when i can't tolerate changing transaction references?
1764 2014-03-25 20:12:01 <TYDIRocks> Don't you just love that you can't spend your own funds?
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1766 2014-03-25 20:12:38 <sipa> dugo: because it may happen
1767 2014-03-25 20:13:28 <kjj> my red alert counter overflowed somewhere between "VPS secured" and "paying someone for graphics and HTML coding"
1768 2014-03-25 20:13:58 <TYDIRocks> lol
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1771 2014-03-25 20:15:38 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i just realized something, why is CKey using LockObject instead of secure_allocator ?
1772 2014-03-25 20:15:44 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, ?
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1774 2014-03-25 20:16:00 <phantomcircuit> oh right derp overlapping pages
1775 2014-03-25 20:16:37 <dugo> sipa: like rowid in oracle databases, i get that .. i prefer ``don't use txid but xyz'' over ``you can't use txid, you figure it out''
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1778 2014-03-25 20:17:10 <phantomcircuit> wait no secure_allocator uses the same underlying LockedPageManager
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1780 2014-03-25 20:17:54 <dugo> sipa: thx for the normalised patch anyway
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1785 2014-03-25 20:19:04 <sipa> dugo: it's retracted, and generally considered the wrong solution
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1787 2014-03-25 20:19:36 <sipa> dugo: as it only works with some types of transactions, and needs help from layers above anyway
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1789 2014-03-25 20:20:25 <sipa> and agree that txid is a confusing name, but from a technical perspective it's not wrong: it is how transactions refer to eachother
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1792 2014-03-25 20:21:39 <sipa> phantomcircuit: because CKey is not allocating anything, it cannot use an allocator
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1794 2014-03-25 20:22:25 <phantomcircuit> sipa, damned c arrays :P
1795 2014-03-25 20:22:30 * phantomcircuit runs and hides
1796 2014-03-25 20:22:33 <sipa> if CKey::vch were a vector rather than an array, it would use a secure_allocator
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1804 2014-03-25 20:24:52 <dugo> sipa: nah, just that all the send stuff returns it is what got me ;)
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1807 2014-03-25 20:25:22 <sipa> dugo: that's a good point
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1814 2014-03-25 20:28:23 <phantomcircuit> sipa, so indeed the only way to substantially improve the performance of CKey::CKey() would be to switch vch to std::vector
1815 2014-03-25 20:28:37 <sipa> ????
1816 2014-03-25 20:28:40 <phantomcircuit> and replace the allocator entirely
1817 2014-03-25 20:28:47 <sipa> this i cannot understand
1818 2014-03-25 20:29:08 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the only way to improve it would be to pre allocate a block of memory as mlock'd
1819 2014-03-25 20:29:10 <sipa> oh
1820 2014-03-25 20:29:31 <phantomcircuit> but to do that you have to replace the allocation function
1821 2014-03-25 20:29:35 <sipa> alternatively: allocate the CKey objects themselves in a pool inside keystore
1822 2014-03-25 20:29:44 <sipa> and remove the LockObject protection inside
1823 2014-03-25 20:29:53 <phantomcircuit> i guess unsigned char[32] -> unsigned char* would be easier
1824 2014-03-25 20:30:04 <phantomcircuit> then use an malloc like function
1825 2014-03-25 20:30:09 <sipa> that's even more performant, as you get much easier memory locality
1826 2014-03-25 20:30:16 <sipa> actually
1827 2014-03-25 20:30:29 <sipa> even just allocating the keys in a vector in keystore would help a lot
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1829 2014-03-25 20:30:49 <sipa> as the pages with private data would overlap
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1831 2014-03-25 20:30:56 <sipa> and you'd only need an mlock for every N keys
1832 2014-03-25 20:31:04 <phantomcircuit> sipa, ah you're right
1833 2014-03-25 20:31:29 <phantomcircuit> it's already only calling mlock 2/5 of the time
1834 2014-03-25 20:31:51 <phantomcircuit> sipa, heh ima do something horrible
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1836 2014-03-25 20:32:05 <phantomcircuit> mlockall and then disable mlock just to see how much faster it is
1837 2014-03-25 20:32:14 <sipa> massively, i'm sure
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1848 2014-03-25 20:45:14 <num1> Apologies if this has already been rehashed quite a few times I'm reading through some archives. But there had previously been some discussion of making zero-confirmation transactions safer by forwarding double-spends and always accepting the ones with a higher fee
1849 2014-03-25 20:45:15 <num1> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=251233.msg2669189#msg2669189
1850 2014-03-25 20:45:20 <num1> what ever happened with that?
1851 2014-03-25 20:45:54 <sipa> that absolutely does not make zero-conf more secure
1852 2014-03-25 20:46:03 <sipa> more transparent, perhaps
1853 2014-03-25 20:48:04 <num1> I think the idea is as part of your payment protocol you'd also give the merchant a transaction where the entire output goes to mining fees
1854 2014-03-25 20:49:14 <num1> okay, after some further thought that's also a sub-par solution
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1862 2014-03-25 20:53:18 <phantomcircuit> sipa, blargh which of the init functions is called by both bitcoind and bitcoin-qt?
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1881 2014-03-25 21:18:39 <phantomcircuit> sipa, ulimit -l unlimited
1882 2014-03-25 21:18:41 * phantomcircuit does mad scientist laugh
1883 2014-03-25 21:18:50 <olalonde> is there a rpc call to get the latest block hash with 6 confirmations?
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1886 2014-03-25 21:22:54 <sipa> olalonde: no, but you can take the height of the tip, subtract 6, and get the hash at that height
1887 2014-03-25 21:23:06 <olalonde> sipa: thanks
1888 2014-03-25 21:23:30 <sipa> actually, just subtract 5
1889 2014-03-25 21:23:36 <sipa> as the tip already has 1 confirmation
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1891 2014-03-25 21:24:57 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it would be nice if make automatically did nice -n 1
1892 2014-03-25 21:25:19 <olalonde> out of curiosity , what is the highest recorded instance of a "diverging chain" forming up before it reverting to the accepted chain? (except for that hard fork)
1893 2014-03-25 21:25:43 <olalonde> which wasn't theoretically "valid"
1894 2014-03-25 21:26:07 <sipa> 2 certainly... don't know about more but may well have happened
1895 2014-03-25 21:26:20 <phantomcircuit> i believe the answer is 3 but that was a long time ago
1896 2014-03-25 21:26:23 Baz has joined
1897 2014-03-25 21:26:24 <olalonde> ok
1898 2014-03-25 21:26:35 <sipa> phantomcircuit: https://xkcd.com/1172/  -> i'm sure someone using make bitcoind as a CPU burner
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1900 2014-03-25 21:27:06 <phantomcircuit> sipa, :P
1901 2014-03-25 21:28:13 <olalonde> haha
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1906 2014-03-25 21:30:44 <phantomcircuit> 2014-03-25 21:27:59 Keys: 10002 plaintext, 0 encrypted, 10002 w/ metadata, 10002 total
1907 2014-03-25 21:30:44 <phantomcircuit> 2014-03-25 21:27:59  wallet                 5177ms
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1909 2014-03-25 21:31:07 <phantomcircuit> that's ~half the time
1910 2014-03-25 21:31:12 <phantomcircuit> but still seems ridiculous
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1917 2014-03-25 21:35:35 <paveljanik> sipa: why should anyone use make bitcoind when they can CPU mine? ;-)
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1970 2014-03-25 21:54:24 <phantomcircuit> 2014-03-25 21:40:11 SetPrivKey=2i_ECPrivateKey(&pkey, &pbegin, privkey.size()) nsec=2930030362 counter=8920
1971 2014-03-25 21:54:50 <phantomcircuit> 328 usec per d2i_ECPrivateKey call
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1973 2014-03-25 21:56:35 <phantomcircuit>  /* some EC_KEY functions */
1974 2014-03-25 21:56:38 <phantomcircuit> oh openssl...
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1993 2014-03-25 22:14:07 <phantomcircuit> sipa, hmm i think this *is* calculating the public key again
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2012 2014-03-25 22:32:13 <sipa> phantomcircuit: what is?
2013 2014-03-25 22:32:42 <aegis-> So how much over spot would you guys be willing to purchase 90% silver US coins from a dealer?
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2016 2014-03-25 22:35:15 <phantomcircuit> sipa, d2i_ECPrivateKey
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2018 2014-03-25 22:35:25 <sipa> aegis-: not here
2019 2014-03-25 22:35:34 <phantomcircuit> it's the only explanation i can come up with for it takes 300 usec
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2021 2014-03-25 22:35:50 <sipa> phantomcircuit: yes, pretty sure it does
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2024 2014-03-25 22:35:59 <sipa> phantomcircuit: there's no other way it can verify the correctness
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2028 2014-03-25 22:38:10 <phantomcircuit> sipa, so the only real solution here is to create a new wallet type which stores vch/fCompressed/privatekey/hash
2029 2014-03-25 22:38:23 <sipa> phantomcircuit: yes, which encrypted wallets do
2030 2014-03-25 22:38:32 <sipa> phantomcircuit: which is what i've been advising you the whole time :)
2031 2014-03-25 22:38:39 <phantomcircuit> er and the pubkey
2032 2014-03-25 22:38:54 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah yeah yeah
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2040 2014-03-25 22:44:34 <phantomcircuit> 720400203
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2089 2014-03-25 23:18:02 <warren> wumpus: cfields agreed to work on glibc/libstdc++ filtering for gitian only, I'm paying him.
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2091 2014-03-25 23:18:19 <SoftwareMechanic> Can I create a bitcoin address from a bip32 master node, or can that only be done from a child?
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2103 2014-03-25 23:29:40 <sipa> SoftwareMechanic: you can, but you shouldn't
2104 2014-03-25 23:29:52 <sipa> SoftwareMechanic: as it means you'd reveal the master public key when spending
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2107 2014-03-25 23:30:19 <sipa> warren: filtering?
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2113 2014-03-25 23:32:12 <SoftwareMechanic> @sipa: good point
2114 2014-03-25 23:32:40 <sipa> SoftwareMechanic: typically, don't use a node both as address and as parent key for other nodes
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2116 2014-03-25 23:33:11 <SoftwareMechanic> Is a wallet account different than a node?
2117 2014-03-25 23:33:33 <SoftwareMechanic> I'm kinda confused on nomenclature atm
2118 2014-03-25 23:34:03 <SoftwareMechanic> I see node, wallet account, and wallet chain, but don't understand the differences
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2120 2014-03-25 23:34:34 <sipa> a node is any node in the key tree
2121 2014-03-25 23:34:45 <sipa> a chain is a node that has wallet keys under it
2122 2014-03-25 23:35:05 <sipa> an account is what a standard HD wallet has as top level division
2123 2014-03-25 23:35:14 <sipa> so: master -> accounts -> chains -> keys
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2129 2014-03-25 23:38:04 <SoftwareMechanic> Should I only be generating addresses from chains?
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2135 2014-03-25 23:41:10 <SoftwareMechanic> Jumping right into bip32 hd wallets is probably not the most gentle introduction to bitcoin
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2138 2014-03-25 23:42:53 <phantomcircuit> sipa, am i wrong, or could some silly user take an hd wallet seed and go down like a giant list of addresses using public derivation
2139 2014-03-25 23:43:03 _ImI_ has joined
2140 2014-03-25 23:43:04 <phantomcircuit> essentially paying someone in such a way that it was really annoying
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2153 2014-03-25 23:52:04 <davout> is there an easy way with bitcoind to see if there is a current chain fork in progress ?
2154 2014-03-25 23:53:43 <olalonde> god, my bitcoind has been downloading the blockchain for a few days now :'(
2155 2014-03-25 23:53:44 Guest13093 has joined
2156 2014-03-25 23:54:01 <Guest13093> what exactly was unfinished about the bitcoin marketplace and rep system?
2157 2014-03-25 23:54:03 <Guest13093> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/5253d1ab77fab1995ede03fb934edd67f1359ba8
2158 2014-03-25 23:54:11 <Luke-Jr> davout: no
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2161 2014-03-25 23:54:20 <sipa> Guest13093: ask satoshi
2162 2014-03-25 23:54:29 <Guest13093> ill get right on that :)
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2167 2014-03-25 23:54:52 <davout> Luke-Jr: guess i can only detect a chain fork after the block i'm looking at has been orphaned
2168 2014-03-25 23:55:13 <sipa> davout: you can detect reorgnizations
2169 2014-03-25 23:55:27 <sipa> davout: but not even every fork that your node sees results in a reorg
2170 2014-03-25 23:55:33 <sipa> davout: much less every fork that happens
2171 2014-03-25 23:55:37 <Luke-Jr> Guest13101: looks pretty incomplete to me
2172 2014-03-25 23:55:55 <davout> sipa: yea, if the block that it saw first happens to be the one the chain continues on if i understand correctly
2173 2014-03-25 23:56:02 <sipa> davout: indeed
2174 2014-03-25 23:56:04 <Gokuson> Luke, you are good man, you read all that code in seconds.
2175 2014-03-25 23:56:29 <Gokuson> i dont have that sort of savant powers.
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2178 2014-03-25 23:56:51 <sipa> it just implemented a database and a relay system for it
2179 2014-03-25 23:56:59 <davout> sipa Luke-Jr what would the json-rpc api give me for a getblock on an orphaned block? or more generally how would i go to monitor this properly using json-rpc?
2180 2014-03-25 23:57:14 <sipa> davout: the block
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2182 2014-03-25 23:57:20 <sipa> (with 0 confirmations)
2183 2014-03-25 23:57:30 <Luke-Jr> uh
2184 2014-03-25 23:57:41 <Luke-Jr> orphan blocks wouldn't even get put on disk..
2185 2014-03-25 23:57:54 <sipa> (also, he's talking about side chains and not orphan blocks...)
2186 2014-03-25 23:58:02 <Luke-Jr> o
2187 2014-03-25 23:58:10 <denisx> olalonde: what system?
2188 2014-03-25 23:58:15 <Luke-Jr> but that *only* works if he saw the stale block first
2189 2014-03-25 23:58:21 <davout> yeah, maybe my terminology is messed up, sorry about that
2190 2014-03-25 23:58:21 <sipa> yup
2191 2014-03-25 23:58:30 hanti is now known as HANTI
2192 2014-03-25 23:58:45 <Luke-Jr> Gokuson: no, i just skimmed to see how many unfinished bits were clearly unfinished <.<
2193 2014-03-25 23:58:50 <sipa> davout: orphan block is a block without parent (i.e., one received in incorrect order with missing parent); very different from a block that got reroged away
2194 2014-03-25 23:58:51 <Gokuson> :)
2195 2014-03-25 23:58:51 <davout> ok, so i just tested, the tip is reported with one confirmation, even though there shouldn't be any block after it
2196 2014-03-25 23:59:00 <sipa> Gokuson: there's no UI, no way to use the system for example
2197 2014-03-25 23:59:12 <Luke-Jr> davout: 1 = the block itself
2198 2014-03-25 23:59:13 <davout> sipa: aha sorry, i meant a block that got reorg'd
2199 2014-03-25 23:59:15 <Gokuson> there we go guys, constructive answers! :D
2200 2014-03-25 23:59:16 <sipa> davout: yes, tip is 1 confirmation
2201 2014-03-25 23:59:24 <sipa> davout: side chains have 0
2202 2014-03-25 23:59:38 <davout> so whenever i see a block with zero confirmations i can just throw it away
2203 2014-03-25 23:59:49 Krellan__ has joined
2204 2014-03-25 23:59:52 <davout> that answers my question, thank you sipa and Luke-Jr