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 138 2014-03-27 02:45:34 siculars has joined
 139 2014-03-27 02:47:26 <siculars> hey gang. so i cant get bitcoinqt 0.9.0 to send with a 0.00001 tx fee. either with the gui or with sendtoaddress <addr> <amt>. i've put 0.00001 in the gui preferences and in .conf file via paytxfee=0.00001. thoughts?
 140 2014-03-27 02:47:43 <Apocalyptic> siculars, it's like you sent it with 0 fee
 141 2014-03-27 02:48:08 <Apocalyptic> or has the minfee been changed in 0.9 ?
 142 2014-03-27 02:48:12 hmmma has joined
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 144 2014-03-27 02:48:53 <siculars> Apocalyptic: i thought this was the new tx fee, 0.00001, no? It sends the tx with a 0.0001 fee.
 145 2014-03-27 02:49:30 <siculars> according to the changelog 0.00001 is the new fee
 146 2014-03-27 02:49:54 gribble has joined
 147 2014-03-27 02:50:39 <Apocalyptic> I missed that
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 156 2014-03-27 03:08:08 <Luke-Jr> is 0.9.0 supposed to require a reindex?
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 162 2014-03-27 03:15:00 <flound1129> siculars: paytxfee is per kb
 163 2014-03-27 03:15:10 <flound1129> iirc
 164 2014-03-27 03:15:26 <torokun> i'm just starting to look at the source code
 165 2014-03-27 03:15:39 <Apocalyptic> flound1129, it is
 166 2014-03-27 03:15:39 <torokun> i am staggered by the complexity of the build scripts.
 167 2014-03-27 03:15:48 <siculars> flound1129: true. but the min fee for it was changed to 0.00001 in the 0.9 release according to the changelog .
 168 2014-03-27 03:15:57 <torokun> does it really have to be that crazy?
 169 2014-03-27 03:16:04 <torokun> o_o
 170 2014-03-27 03:16:24 <flound1129> the makefiles?
 171 2014-03-27 03:16:36 <torokun> the whole autogen thing
 172 2014-03-27 03:16:47 <flound1129> end users shouldn't have to run autogen
 173 2014-03-27 03:16:59 <torokun> of course not
 174 2014-03-27 03:17:10 <flound1129> even end users compiling from source I mean
 175 2014-03-27 03:17:35 <flound1129> ./configure.sh at the most
 176 2014-03-27 03:17:37 <torokun> well, i just downloaded the source from github and that's how the docs tell you to build it.
 177 2014-03-27 03:17:43 <flound1129> well that's borken
 178 2014-03-27 03:17:45 <flound1129> *broken
 179 2014-03-27 03:18:11 <torokun> hmm.  i don't think the makefile.in files are in the repo
 180 2014-03-27 03:18:12 <flound1129> or at least, contrary to convention for building things from source for the past 15 years
 181 2014-03-27 03:18:15 <torokun> so you have to
 182 2014-03-27 03:18:16 <flound1129> at least
 183 2014-03-27 03:18:22 <flound1129> autogen is a developer tool
 184 2014-03-27 03:18:53 <torokun> yes, but the autogen script seems to be humongous
 185 2014-03-27 03:19:41 <LarsLarsen> the makefiles are there
 186 2014-03-27 03:20:05 <LarsLarsen> makefile.unix is probably what you're looking for
 187 2014-03-27 03:20:05 Krellan_ has joined
 188 2014-03-27 03:20:08 <LarsLarsen> in /src/
 189 2014-03-27 03:20:19 <torokun> so who is supposed to use autogen and who is not?
 190 2014-03-27 03:20:52 <torokun> you don't even need it to build from scratch?
 191 2014-03-27 03:21:08 Zifre_ has joined
 192 2014-03-27 03:21:39 <torokun> if autogen is supposed to be the tool used to generate the makefiles, a clean build should use it, right?
 193 2014-03-27 03:21:59 <torokun> could be changes to it periodically
 194 2014-03-27 03:22:08 <LarsLarsen> yes
 195 2014-03-27 03:22:40 <warren> Luke-Jr: I'm trying to find a point in testnet that causes the failure in 0.8.7rc1, then I'll try 0.9
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 200 2014-03-27 03:25:11 <torokun> random question: why are error strings and such hardcoded?
 201 2014-03-27 03:25:35 smash has joined
 202 2014-03-27 03:25:41 <Luke-Jr> torokun: uh, because you have to hardcode something?
 203 2014-03-27 03:26:12 <torokun> i mean, why don't you put all the strings in a separate file (like a resource file) which can be more easily localized?
 204 2014-03-27 03:26:28 <Luke-Jr> because it's just as easy to localise hardcoded strings
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 206 2014-03-27 03:26:55 <flound1129> beause T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM
 207 2014-03-27 03:26:57 <torokun> then your strings are strewn all through the code rather than being in one place.
 208 2014-03-27 03:27:03 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 209 2014-03-27 03:27:19 <Luke-Jr> torokun: problem?
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 211 2014-03-27 03:27:22 <torokun> lol
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 215 2014-03-27 03:27:54 <Luke-Jr> it's good for code readability this way too
 216 2014-03-27 03:28:02 <Luke-Jr> there's really no advantage to moving the strings out
 217 2014-03-27 03:28:13 <flound1129> yeah then you can have 1 if statement per language
 218 2014-03-27 03:28:24 <flound1129> easy stuff
 219 2014-03-27 03:28:27 <torokun> It's readable but not a great design
 220 2014-03-27 03:28:37 <flound1129> 1 if statement per language per string
 221 2014-03-27 03:28:50 <flound1129> just remember, if in doubt goto fail
 222 2014-03-27 03:29:10 <Luke-Jr> torokun: it's the best design
 223 2014-03-27 03:29:26 <Luke-Jr> flound1129: why any? that's what the localisation engine is for
 224 2014-03-27 03:29:41 <torokun> No, it's much better imho to have all the strings in one file.
 225 2014-03-27 03:30:15 <Luke-Jr> torokun: well, you're entitled to your opinion, but you've failed to back it up with reasons
 226 2014-03-27 03:30:59 <torokun> i haven't tried yet.
 227 2014-03-27 03:31:07 <torokun> i'm just expressing my opinion.
 228 2014-03-27 03:31:22 <siculars> ok gang got the min tx fee set to 0.00001. according to the changelog, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/release-notes/release-notes-0.9.0.md, there are two potential settings to set (i set 4 diff settings in my bitcoin.conf. i set paytxfee, settxfee, mintxfee and minrelaytxfee all to 0.00001. haven’t tested which one is actually the winner. but its working now.
 229 2014-03-27 03:32:02 <Luke-Jr> siculars: no, that's just for relaying.
 230 2014-03-27 03:32:03 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 231 2014-03-27 03:32:14 <Luke-Jr> siculars: if you don't pay a reasonable fee, it still won't get mined.
 232 2014-03-27 03:32:53 <siculars> hmmm well i sent it out. ill see if it gets mined or not. or just sits on the floor
 233 2014-03-27 03:33:08 gribble has quit (Quit: brb)
 234 2014-03-27 03:33:14 <Luke-Jr> I guess we're getting closer to the point where fixing stuck sends is possible..
 235 2014-03-27 03:33:17 <shadders> Is there a 4 byte field in either tx or txin that wasn't always in the protocol?  I'm thinking sequence or locktime?  Parsing old blocks and after parsing 1 txin the cursor is 4 bytes ahead of where it should be.
 236 2014-03-27 03:33:23 <torokun> For one, it's much easier to verify that each string use is consistent when they are all together.  It's easier to verify that language usage is consistent.  It's easier to write code to process strings in a single file.  It's easier to give the file to other tools to process...
 237 2014-03-27 03:33:54 <Luke-Jr> shadders: not in this blockchain
 238 2014-03-27 03:34:01 <torokun> It's easier to find strings you want to change.
 239 2014-03-27 03:34:03 <torokun> etc.
 240 2014-03-27 03:34:15 benkay has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 241 2014-03-27 03:34:20 <Luke-Jr> torokun: good thing the localisation is all together
 242 2014-03-27 03:34:30 <Luke-Jr> also, git grep is your friend.. :P
 243 2014-03-27 03:34:54 <shadders> there's never been any changes to message format for tx's or txin's?
 244 2014-03-27 03:35:03 <Luke-Jr> shadders: not in this blockchain.
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 250 2014-03-27 03:37:53 <siculars> why doesnt sendtoaddress allow you to set the tx fee? something like sendtoaddress <addr> <amt> <fee> where fee could just default but could also be overridden on a tx by tx basis…
 251 2014-03-27 03:38:11 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 253 2014-03-27 03:38:34 <Luke-Jr> siculars: because RPC is not well-designed
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 261 2014-03-27 03:41:06 <siculars> Luke-Jr: according to the changelog it looks like bitcoind and bitcoin gui will be separated. if i wanted to look into putting together a pull request for adding fee to sendtoaddress where would you recommend i start looking?
 262 2014-03-27 03:41:41 theorbtwo has joined
 263 2014-03-27 03:42:59 <jeffj> not strictly on topic, but hoping to get the right eyes: since bitcoin pull request 2124 (multiple wallets) got abandoned before 0.9, how are people with hundreds of thousands of users handling this use case? lots of instances of bitcoind and a few thousands addresses per wallet/instance?
 264 2014-03-27 03:44:43 smash has joined
 265 2014-03-27 03:45:07 <Luke-Jr> siculars: I don't suggest you do that right now. The plan is to revamp RPC entirely for 0.10 I think
 266 2014-03-27 03:45:11 gribble has joined
 267 2014-03-27 03:45:36 <Luke-Jr> jeffj: all your users should be using the same shared wallet(s)
 268 2014-03-27 03:45:43 olalonde has joined
 269 2014-03-27 03:46:09 <olalonde> so it seems someone did record all transactions http://arxiv.org/pdf/1403.6676v1.pdf
 270 2014-03-27 03:46:30 <olalonde> anyone else read the paper?
 271 2014-03-27 03:46:38 dgenr8 has joined
 272 2014-03-27 03:47:53 <olalonde> seems legit except it would be nice if they released their data (using bittorrent maybe?)
 273 2014-03-27 03:48:48 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: I don't think anyone really believes malleability was MtGox's problem at this point :P
 274 2014-03-27 03:49:19 <Luke-Jr> also, off-topic here
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 284 2014-03-27 03:52:44 <num1> <Luke-Jr> I guess we're getting closer to the point where fixing stuck sends is possible..
 285 2014-03-27 03:52:45 <num1> how?
 286 2014-03-27 03:53:00 <Luke-Jr> num1: well, we have the zap stuff now
 287 2014-03-27 03:53:04 <Luke-Jr> even if it is a bit broken
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 289 2014-03-27 03:53:28 <num1> Luke-Jr, sorry, I don't know what you're referring to
 290 2014-03-27 03:53:48 <num1> googling for "bitcoin zap" doesn't help either
 291 2014-03-27 03:54:29 <Luke-Jr>   -zapwallettxes         Clear list of wallet transactions (diagnostic tool; implies -rescan)
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 293 2014-03-27 03:54:54 <olalonde> Luke-Jr: yea I know... but it's interesting to have some hard data
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 296 2014-03-27 03:55:18 <num1> thank you kindly
 297 2014-03-27 03:55:19 <olalonde> I find it curious they had the foresight to record all transactions since 2013. I guess they had another type of analysis in mind
 298 2014-03-27 03:55:40 Subo1977_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 299 2014-03-27 03:55:47 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: all transactions are already recorded in the blockchain
 300 2014-03-27 03:55:53 siculars has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 301 2014-03-27 03:56:23 <olalonde> Luke-Jr: those guys apparently recorded transactions that didn't make it to the blockchain (failed transaction malleability attempts for example)
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 303 2014-03-27 03:57:58 <Luke-Jr> I wonder how they managed to do any analysis while still suffering from the misunderstanding that bitcoin addresses have balances O.o
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 308 2014-03-27 04:00:01 <olalonde> do they? I don't think they mentioned anything about addresses in their paper
 309 2014-03-27 04:00:35 <dgenr8> Having recently familiarized myself with the source (somewhat)
 310 2014-03-27 04:00:40 <jeffj> Luke-Jr: is there a practical limit to # of addresses in a wallet from a development standpoint?
 311 2014-03-27 04:00:52 <dgenr8> I was impressed with the practical choices made
 312 2014-03-27 04:01:06 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: they did
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 314 2014-03-27 04:01:14 <dgenr8> Such as in-line strings and no overuse of classes
 315 2014-03-27 04:01:18 <num1> "The Bitcoin network is a distributed network of computer nodes controlled by a
 316 2014-03-27 04:01:19 <num1> multitude of owners. They collectively implement a replicated ledger that tracks
 317 2014-03-27 04:01:19 <num1> the address balances of all users"
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 322 2014-03-27 04:02:33 <olalonde> their methodology seemed to make sense to me
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 326 2014-03-27 04:06:22 <olalonde> in the real world, address balance is often used as a shortcut to "balance controlled by the private key that generated the address" :)
 327 2014-03-27 04:06:29 Ghaleon_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 328 2014-03-27 04:06:38 <olalonde> but I know I will never convince you of that :P
 329 2014-03-27 04:06:48 Ghaleon_ has joined
 330 2014-03-27 04:07:26 <olalonde> oops, the private key that generated the public key that is hashed
 331 2014-03-27 04:07:29 <olalonde> haha
 332 2014-03-27 04:07:59 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: I know that, but it's meaningless and confuses users to speak of it that way
 333 2014-03-27 04:08:15 <Luke-Jr> they start to think addresses *really* have balances
 334 2014-03-27 04:08:29 <Luke-Jr> and that by reusing addresses, they're helping bitcoin or saving fees
 335 2014-03-27 04:08:31 <torokun> actually, i think users would be more confused to have anything at all about how it actually works explained to them.
 336 2014-03-27 04:09:05 <olalonde> I concede that it's misleading to newbies
 337 2014-03-27 04:09:26 <Luke-Jr> torokun: which is why "how it actually works" should be kept separate from "how you use it"
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 342 2014-03-27 04:10:04 <torokun> well, it depends on the software you use
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 344 2014-03-27 04:10:20 <torokun> if people use blockchain.info, they do effectively have balances per address.
 345 2014-03-27 04:10:27 <Luke-Jr> sigh
 346 2014-03-27 04:10:42 <Luke-Jr> let's pretend non-sane software doesn't exist, ok? :P
 347 2014-03-27 04:10:50 <torokun> paper wallets
 348 2014-03-27 04:11:07 <Luke-Jr> the only paper wallets I acknowledge are HD wallets! :P
 349 2014-03-27 04:11:15 <torokun> HD?
 350 2014-03-27 04:11:22 <dgenr8> If someone wrote a wallet called "keybag" that didnt hide change addreses etc, i would tell my grandma to use it
 351 2014-03-27 04:11:29 <Luke-Jr> torokun: yes, like Armory makes
 352 2014-03-27 04:11:41 <torokun> ah
 353 2014-03-27 04:11:50 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: that would be a bad idea right now for political reasons :x
 354 2014-03-27 04:12:21 torokun has quit (Quit: torokun)
 355 2014-03-27 04:12:49 <dgenr8> Some grandmas matter more than others
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 358 2014-03-27 04:14:49 <olalonde> my paper wallet is my electrum seed phrase , does that count? :P
 359 2014-03-27 04:15:08 <olalonde> don't think they implement HD yet though
 360 2014-03-27 04:15:34 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: eh, is it a real wallet, or just a single address? :p
 361 2014-03-27 04:15:44 <olalonde> real wallet :P
 362 2014-03-27 04:16:02 <Luke-Jr> k *stamp of approval*
 363 2014-03-27 04:16:08 <olalonde> haha
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 372 2014-03-27 04:28:15 <jedunnigan> is anyone keeping a publicly accessible log of all txs that have been in the mempool but never made it into blocks?
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 386 2014-03-27 04:45:24 <Emcy_> why would you do that
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 392 2014-03-27 04:51:01 <Emcy_> On top of all that is a long list of new features and improvements I’d like to see get into a 0.9 release; the highest priorities on my wish list are:
 393 2014-03-27 04:51:01 <Emcy_> “First double-spend” relay and detection. Detecting attempted double-spends as soon as possible is great for low-value, in-person transactions, and we should do more to support that use case.
 394 2014-03-27 04:51:14 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 395 2014-03-27 04:51:17 <Emcy_> did that get into 0.9, or did it get pushed back
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 397 2014-03-27 04:52:01 <Luke-Jr> Emcy_: nobody cares
 398 2014-03-27 04:52:22 <Luke-Jr> this is not #please-do-things-I-want
 399 2014-03-27 04:52:56 <Emcy_> im asking if it happened im not asking you to do it
 400 2014-03-27 04:52:57 <jedunnigan> no, I was curious if anyone ahs because it was something i was considering doing myself. thanks though
 401 2014-03-27 04:53:56 <Emcy_> i know the floating fee got pushe dback in the end. Im just asking christ
 402 2014-03-27 04:54:40 debiantoruser has joined
 403 2014-03-27 04:54:49 <Luke-Jr> Emcy_: it was never merged, probably in part because it's a mere false sense of security
 404 2014-03-27 04:55:20 pierreatwork has joined
 405 2014-03-27 04:55:51 <Emcy_> for anything over probably low double digit dollar value thats probably true
 406 2014-03-27 04:56:03 <Emcy_> ok thanks
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 410 2014-03-27 04:56:39 <Luke-Jr> Emcy_: no really, it provides negative security improvement
 411 2014-03-27 04:57:58 <Emcy_> assuming well diversely connected nodes i dont see how
 412 2014-03-27 04:58:31 <Emcy_> should be one of those defense in depth things ie youd be dumb to soley rely on it but it helps
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 414 2014-03-27 04:58:43 <Luke-Jr> Emcy_: because transactions never need to be relayed to be mined
 415 2014-03-27 04:58:51 <Luke-Jr> Emcy_: because it's easy to create transactions that *won't* be relayed
 416 2014-03-27 05:00:28 <Luke-Jr> and unless you're 100% secure, there is a penalty for people assuming/believing they are protected
 417 2014-03-27 05:00:40 <Emcy_> the theory on that is it wont be economical to pay a miner to shadymine your doublespend on $15 movie tickets
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 419 2014-03-27 05:01:01 <Emcy_> i dont know if that holds up mind
 420 2014-03-27 05:01:30 <Luke-Jr> well, you don't have to pay the miner to doublespend, any more than a normal spend
 421 2014-03-27 05:01:39 <Luke-Jr> and obviously you get the $15 back
 422 2014-03-27 05:01:58 MolokoDeck has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 423 2014-03-27 05:02:38 <Emcy_> is the general assumption that miners are mainly going to go off the grid in future?
 424 2014-03-27 05:03:06 <Luke-Jr> off the grid?
 425 2014-03-27 05:03:41 <Emcy_> not accpet or relay txns to or from normal nodes, perhaps not even run the p2p at all
 426 2014-03-27 05:04:14 <Luke-Jr> unlikely
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 428 2014-03-27 05:05:29 <Emcy_> so it will be specialist shady miners that will do the quiet DS blocks with txns no one saw until they saw it in a block?
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 430 2014-03-27 05:05:36 <sipa> torokun: when you download a source tarball, it has autogen preapplied
 431 2014-03-27 05:05:55 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no, 0.9 shouldn't require a reindex (going back to 0.8 might)
 432 2014-03-27 05:06:38 <Emcy_> how about a node wont accept a block as valid unless its seen all the txs floating around in unconfirmed state beforehand?
 433 2014-03-27 05:06:43 <Luke-Jr> Emcy_: no, just miners who mine transactions that aren't relayed by a majority of nodes
 434 2014-03-27 05:06:51 <Luke-Jr> Emcy_: then bitcoin falls apart
 435 2014-03-27 05:06:51 <torokun> sipa: yeah - i'm trying to read and build the source myself to get familiar with it.
 436 2014-03-27 05:06:58 <torokun> sipa: and eventually contribute
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 443 2014-03-27 05:09:18 <sipa> torokun: \o/
 444 2014-03-27 05:09:43 <torokun> sipa: finally did manage to build it - yay. ;)
 445 2014-03-27 05:10:18 <Emcy_> so a tx has ten minutes (avg) to get around into mempools before the nodes will accept it in a block
 446 2014-03-27 05:10:28 <Emcy_> under my little scheme
 447 2014-03-27 05:11:02 <Emcy_> if some mempool syncing work was done so that they were a little more persistent against node churn
 448 2014-03-27 05:11:08 <Emcy_> is ten minutes really not enough?
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 452 2014-03-27 05:11:34 <sipa> Emcy_: requiring block transactions to be in the mempool would require consistent synchronization of mempools in order to avoid forks
 453 2014-03-27 05:11:42 <sipa> Emcy_: which... would require a block chain, really
 454 2014-03-27 05:12:09 <Luke-Jr> Emcy_: so now you've broken: consensus(!), SPV nodes, antispam, non-public-key scripts, miners' rights, etc..
 455 2014-03-27 05:13:20 <Luke-Jr> oh, and offline wallets
 456 2014-03-27 05:14:31 <Emcy_> so there is no way to enforce miners not being secretive sods
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 458 2014-03-27 05:16:21 <Emcy_> i mean if there was wouldnt that fix the selfish miner thing too
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 460 2014-03-27 05:16:41 <Luke-Jr> Emcy_: if there was, we *wouldn't need mining at all*
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 462 2014-03-27 05:17:40 <Emcy_> sigh i used to be better at this
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 477 2014-03-27 05:27:00 <LarsLarsen> Emcy_: Miners are allowed to mine completely empty block (except for the coinbase),  it is by design.  Its not a problem.
 478 2014-03-27 05:27:27 <LarsLarsen> Emcy_: Its a feature.
 479 2014-03-27 05:27:34 <Emcy_> i didnt propose to stop that
 480 2014-03-27 05:28:34 BenderCoin has joined
 481 2014-03-27 05:28:48 <LarsLarsen> I see,  but how is it a problem that transactions are first seen in blocks?  Thats the first place they really matter
 482 2014-03-27 05:29:15 <LarsLarsen> the only reason to see them before them is for including them in blocks (or facilitating others who do)
 483 2014-03-27 05:29:23 <LarsLarsen> before then
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 485 2014-03-27 05:29:53 <Emcy_> to make first DS relay somewhat worth doing and save small transactions from bitpay etc skimming
 486 2014-03-27 05:30:03 <Emcy_> i dont actually think it affects selfish miner
 487 2014-03-27 05:30:26 <LarsLarsen> I see,  you're saying there is no incentive for a node to be good
 488 2014-03-27 05:30:42 <Emcy_> ?
 489 2014-03-27 05:30:42 benkay has joined
 490 2014-03-27 05:30:54 <LarsLarsen> That there is no incentive to run a node
 491 2014-03-27 05:30:57 <LarsLarsen> and relay
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 494 2014-03-27 05:31:29 <Emcy_> in general? Theres an abstract incentive
 495 2014-03-27 05:31:42 OneFixt has joined
 496 2014-03-27 05:31:49 <LarsLarsen> sure
 497 2014-03-27 05:31:55 <sipa> if you use that abstract incentive as an argument, no one would ever try to steal bitcoin
 498 2014-03-27 05:31:59 teward has joined
 499 2014-03-27 05:32:09 <Emcy_> wait how does that relate to this ds relay thing
 500 2014-03-27 05:32:29 <sipa> (not saying it is wrong to an extent, but it shouldn't matter for reasoning about incentives and attacks)
 501 2014-03-27 05:33:01 <Emcy_> sipa youre right, i know it doesnt seem to mean anything to people
 502 2014-03-27 05:33:10 <sipa> i'm unsure about DS relaying
 503 2014-03-27 05:33:23 <sipa> it makes it easier to detect (the simplest type of) attacks
 504 2014-03-27 05:33:26 <sipa> on 0-conf
 505 2014-03-27 05:33:44 <sipa> but it also makes it easier for miners to just go pick the highest-fee-paying one of the two relayed
 506 2014-03-27 05:33:50 <sipa> effectively reducing 0-conf security
 507 2014-03-27 05:33:50 <Emcy_> as luke said it doesnt work being you can mine txs into blocks in secret and the netowrk doesnt mind
 508 2014-03-27 05:34:01 <sipa> yes, that's always an option
 509 2014-03-27 05:34:27 <sipa> but with DS relaying it doesn't even require a special OOB request from payer to miner
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 511 2014-03-27 05:34:52 <LarsLarsen> Yeah I'm not addressing the solution you're proposing,  I'm simply addressing whatever problems it attempts to solve.
 512 2014-03-27 05:35:12 <Emcy_> well remember the aim is just to be able to sound an alarm, of course you cant stop the DS if someone tried it
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 514 2014-03-27 05:35:29 <Emcy_> but you might know pretty quick if they screwed you
 515 2014-03-27 05:35:29 <LarsLarsen> I mean,  you'll get plenty of miners who accept your blocks (especially if you pay)
 516 2014-03-27 05:35:55 benrcole has joined
 517 2014-03-27 05:36:04 <Emcy_> just a harebrtained attempt to resolve the secret tx mining luke said
 518 2014-03-27 05:36:22 <LarsLarsen> I see... so you want to be able to check
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 520 2014-03-27 05:36:24 <sipa> i don't see secret tx mining as a problem
 521 2014-03-27 05:36:28 <Emcy_> i don know why he thought it does away with empty blocks though
 522 2014-03-27 05:36:41 <sipa> i'm not convinced the broadcast-all-transactions-to-everyone will scale anyway
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 524 2014-03-27 05:37:27 <LarsLarsen> I think thats the choke point of the network,  the network
 525 2014-03-27 05:37:34 <Emcy_> i think the maths says it doesnt but it depends on bitcoin uptake vs bandwidth
 526 2014-03-27 05:37:58 <sipa> well with limited block sizes everything scales, as transaction rates are O(1)
 527 2014-03-27 05:38:21 <Emcy_> LarsLarsen thats interesting, ive seen a sort of trend towards people seeing and speaking about bitcoins core strengths as liabilities
 528 2014-03-27 05:38:40 <Emcy_> all this does just go away if we stick it on a server ofc
 529 2014-03-27 05:39:42 BenderCoin has joined
 530 2014-03-27 05:40:02 <LarsLarsen> I agree that with the current UTXO db rolling database chain system space is only a bandwith issue
 531 2014-03-27 05:40:10 <LarsLarsen> and thats why I say the network is the limit
 532 2014-03-27 05:40:20 <Emcy_> sipa thats true. I think we just hope the politics stays out of the blocksize thing and its managed based on technical criteria only
 533 2014-03-27 05:40:23 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 534 2014-03-27 05:40:24 <Emcy_> if thats even possible
 535 2014-03-27 05:42:55 <Emcy_> LarsLarsen you are right
 536 2014-03-27 05:43:14 <LarsLarsen> Emcy_: nobody stops to think why things are they way they are.... they just replace it with something they already know :)
 537 2014-03-27 05:43:59 SwampTony has joined
 538 2014-03-27 05:44:21 <Emcy_> im just saying the network is a strength, even if it has its drawbacks. Some people see it as a burden i think. Perhaps not you or anyone else here, elsewhere though.
 539 2014-03-27 05:45:36 <LarsLarsen> Scaling isnt a problem yet but when it is we'll know for sure.  :)
 540 2014-03-27 05:45:54 <Emcy_> oh well this is kind of generic proselytising so ill stop there
 541 2014-03-27 05:46:08 <LarsLarsen> concur
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 544 2014-03-27 05:49:12 <Emcy_> oh yeah i meant to ask is anyone had reviewed that paper that claims fees can never support mining
 545 2014-03-27 05:49:34 <Emcy_> and calls for a tax to be built into the protocol or some shit
 546 2014-03-27 05:50:13 <Emcy_> i always assumed fees would just end up fairly sky high and people would have to pools txs
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 574 2014-03-27 06:29:02 <Alina-malina> hmmm how to create a test bitcoin multisig operation ?
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 614 2014-03-27 07:26:34 <kadoban> OP_VERIFY, is it important in some way that False is not removed from the stack?  Execution ends and the transaction is invalidated anyway, right?
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 657 2014-03-27 08:25:16 <warren> Anyone can help me do gitian builds?
 658 2014-03-27 08:25:43 <wumpus> sure
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 662 2014-03-27 08:25:58 <warren> they're not standard bitcoin
 663 2014-03-27 08:26:11 <warren> wumpus: https://github.com/litecoin-project/gitian.sigs.omg  (Bitcoin 0.8.x backport)
 664 2014-03-27 08:26:25 <warren> v0.8.7-OMG12 tag
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 667 2014-03-27 08:30:45 <wumpus> well as long as it uses the same inputs I dont mind
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 677 2014-03-27 08:38:18 <warren> wumpus: same inputs as 0.8
 678 2014-03-27 08:38:28 <wumpus> it's already building
 679 2014-03-27 08:38:31 <warren> thanks
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 695 2014-03-27 08:57:25 <serphacker> hi, the new coin control feature allow to send from an address right ? is it a GUI only feature ?
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 697 2014-03-27 08:57:56 <serphacker> is it planned to have a rpc sendfromaddress or something like that ?
 698 2014-03-27 08:58:37 <Apocalyptic> there is no "from" address
 699 2014-03-27 08:58:47 <serphacker> from tx if you prefer
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 701 2014-03-27 08:59:32 <Apocalyptic> you can achieve what you want with raw transactions
 702 2014-03-27 08:59:39 <AmThatsMe> Hi everyone !
 703 2014-03-27 08:59:45 <serphacker> yes I know there is no from address, but I just wanted to know if it was planned to restrict to "from address"
 704 2014-03-27 08:59:52 <serphacker> Apocalyptic: yep, that's already what 'im doing
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 706 2014-03-27 09:01:46 <Emcy_> im still really surprised they merged coin control
 707 2014-03-27 09:01:51 <wumpus> use listunspent, then build your transaction using raw transactions API
 708 2014-03-27 09:01:59 <serphacker> wumpus: already doing that
 709 2014-03-27 09:02:01 <wumpus> Emcy_: why? it's very useful
 710 2014-03-27 09:02:19 <Emcy_> can you fuck up coin control options to a point where you lose money? will bt core let you do that?
 711 2014-03-27 09:02:52 <wumpus> well you can lose money by paying a lot of fees by building very large transactinons
 712 2014-03-27 09:02:57 <wumpus> but that should be the only way
 713 2014-03-27 09:03:26 <wumpus> there should be no holes through which coins can disappear, many people have used the code for a long time, then again, no guarantees
 714 2014-03-27 09:03:33 <Emcy_> but that would tak the effort of a determined idiot right?
 715 2014-03-27 09:03:47 <wumpus> well all kinds of large numbers and red text will appear
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 717 2014-03-27 09:04:07 <Emcy_> so you cannot send most of your change into a black hole or anything
 718 2014-03-27 09:04:11 <warren> sendrawtransaction will block high fees =)
 719 2014-03-27 09:04:29 <wumpus> you can send change to an arbitrary address
 720 2014-03-27 09:04:36 <wumpus> so if that is a black hole, sure
 721 2014-03-27 09:04:53 <Emcy_> yes but like does the client check if it controls said address
 722 2014-03-27 09:05:05 <wumpus> it checks but doesn't enforce it
 723 2014-03-27 09:05:10 <wumpus> (so it warns if not)
 724 2014-03-27 09:05:19 <wumpus> any way why don't you just try it
 725 2014-03-27 09:05:29 <wumpus> I can discuss an existing feature all day or try to work on new stuff
 726 2014-03-27 09:06:05 <Emcy_> i-im not f-forcing you
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 728 2014-03-27 09:07:41 <Emcy_> i was just surprised because not only is the concept of coin control obscure, using it for any given txn takes some personal research i think if you are to actually gain a privacy benefit
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 732 2014-03-27 09:08:39 <wumpus> it's disabled by default
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 734 2014-03-27 09:09:12 <wumpus> but most devs and advanced users prefer to use it, which is a sizeable part of the people that still use bitcoin-qt
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 738 2014-03-27 09:12:16 <Emcy_> yes but i mean hopefully that wont be the case forever. its just been leapfrogged in the usability stakes.
 739 2014-03-27 09:12:30 <wumpus> newbies wil likely use something like multibit or the android wallet, so we can focus on the more advanced use cases
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 742 2014-03-27 09:13:41 <Emcy_> i wouldnt agree with that attitude
 743 2014-03-27 09:13:54 <wumpus> it's been leapfrogged and it is impossible to keep up, we shouldn't even want to keep up, commercial interests are much better at making user friendly UIs
 744 2014-03-27 09:14:34 <Emcy_> and almost none of them are actually bitcoin
 745 2014-03-27 09:14:58 gst has joined
 746 2014-03-27 09:14:59 <wumpus> if you disagree, please show that by contributing code instead of arguing
 747 2014-03-27 09:15:24 <Emcy_> im not arguing as such
 748 2014-03-27 09:15:37 <Emcy_> and im not bright enough to code instead
 749 2014-03-27 09:16:33 <wumpus> there's a lot of duplication happening, it's better if different projects have their own focus
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 752 2014-03-27 09:18:00 <wumpus> I'm just trying to be realistic, we have only very few people working on the project and should do best with what we have, and that's not focusing on UI
 753 2014-03-27 09:18:04 <Emcy_> ordinarily that is sound advice
 754 2014-03-27 09:18:42 <wumpus> but if someone would suddenly start contributing lots of usability improvements ofcourse they wouldn't' be rejected :)
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 756 2014-03-27 09:19:05 <Emcy_> im just saying all the engineering work wont mean much if no one runs it anyway due to usability
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 759 2014-03-27 09:19:38 <Emcy_> and i do agree that bc core devteam is too small and that annoys me given the value coming into bitcoin now
 760 2014-03-27 09:19:57 <wumpus> 'we should abandon the UI completely' is an option, but not one I'm willing to consider yet, as it is many people are using it fine
 761 2014-03-27 09:20:08 <Emcy_> i think even jeff has been put to work on yet another implementation for bitpay now
 762 2014-03-27 09:21:05 <Emcy_> that actually might turn out a decent option if it means another team can pick up the UI baton entirely and leave gavin et al working on core
 763 2014-03-27 09:21:26 <wumpus> also there certainly are contributions to it, it's improving, just not as fast as a hipness-of-the-day project could
 764 2014-03-27 09:21:31 <Emcy_> but only if the result can still be packaged as one complete reference client
 765 2014-03-27 09:21:33 <Emcy_> imo
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 767 2014-03-27 09:22:31 <wumpus> everyone is free to package a headless bitcoind+SPV client already
 768 2014-03-27 09:22:36 <warren> wumpus: did the build work?
 769 2014-03-27 09:22:41 <wumpus> that's sort of what armory does
 770 2014-03-27 09:22:57 <wumpus> warren: yes, it works
 771 2014-03-27 09:23:21 <Emcy_> what the hell is armoury though, see what i mean?
 772 2014-03-27 09:23:25 <wumpus> warren: linux has been built,  windows was lacking inputs so I have to build those first
 773 2014-03-27 09:23:43 <warren> thanks
 774 2014-03-27 09:23:44 <Emcy_> people generally need 1 thing called according to one well known brand to install and use
 775 2014-03-27 09:24:03 <wumpus> Emcy_: that just won't happen for a decentralized project
 776 2014-03-27 09:24:30 <Emcy_> ive tried to warnt he tox people not to start giving every module of a working tox install its own nifty little name if you really want to take down skype
 777 2014-03-27 09:25:36 <wumpus> Emcy_: armory is one of the chohices here https://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet
 778 2014-03-27 09:26:36 <Emcy_> i know what armoury is im just giving an example perhaps of user thought process
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 782 2014-03-27 09:26:55 <wumpus> for those users, multibit is best
 783 2014-03-27 09:27:01 <wumpus> (also recommended at the top there)
 784 2014-03-27 09:27:48 <skinnkavaj> Can .msg files contain viruses?
 785 2014-03-27 09:27:56 Eagle[TM] has joined
 786 2014-03-27 09:29:46 <wumpus> skinnkavaj: how does that relate to bitcoin in any way?
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 790 2014-03-27 09:30:26 <wumpus> in principle any file that is parsed in some way can contain viruses, targeting some buggy parser
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 808 2014-03-27 09:35:37 <skinnkavaj> wumpus: Rarfiles also? If you just open a rarfile but never open anything it
 809 2014-03-27 09:35:40 hearn has joined
 810 2014-03-27 09:35:45 <skinnkavaj> in it*
 811 2014-03-27 09:37:23 <wumpus> yes there have been known cases of exploits in RAR extractors
 812 2014-03-27 09:38:03 <wumpus> viruses wil usually target an old version of some well-known software, but you can never answer the 'can it contain viruses' with a reassuring no.
 813 2014-03-27 09:38:44 SwampTony has joined
 814 2014-03-27 09:39:07 <wumpus> create a one-use VM and extract it in there :)
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 817 2014-03-27 09:40:57 <wumpus> warren: "mv build/out/bitcoinomg-deps-0.0.5.zip inputs/" there is no bitcoinomg-deps :p
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 823 2014-03-27 09:44:42 <warren> wumpus: huh... good catch.  I guess the other people didn't point out that error because it uses the same deps as bitcoin.
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 827 2014-03-27 09:46:14 <skinnkavaj> warren: Is a new version of Bitcoin OMG out?
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 829 2014-03-27 09:47:02 <warren> skinnkavaj: testing it now
 830 2014-03-27 09:47:12 <warren> skinnkavaj: it is worse than 0.9 in every way.  there's no reason to use it.
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 837 2014-03-27 09:54:49 <wumpus> warren: https://download.visucore.com/bitcoin/laanwj-sigs-0.8.7-OMG12.tar.gz   (don't feel like cloning the repo and creating a pull req)
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 845 2014-03-27 10:11:59 <warren> wumpus: ok thanks
 846 2014-03-27 10:12:18 <fanquake> ;;blocks
 847 2014-03-27 10:12:19 <gribble> 292695
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 859 2014-03-27 10:25:56 <wumpus> we really need more people that review and test pull requests on github
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 861 2014-03-27 10:28:59 <jaromil> might be a fun activity, while playing out loud "careful with that axe Eugene"
 862 2014-03-27 10:31:04 <wumpus> hehe
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 866 2014-03-27 10:41:17 <shadders> are there any 32 byte strings that are known to be impossible to produce with a sha256 hash?
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 870 2014-03-27 10:42:42 <wumpus> no, any string should be just as likely
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 872 2014-03-27 10:43:35 <shadders> bugger... I'm looking  for a null marker for a sha256 placeholder.  I guess I'll have to add an extra byte
 873 2014-03-27 10:43:56 <Alina-malina> someone promissd me to send me som testnet bitcoins, is that someone still here?
 874 2014-03-27 10:44:00 <Alina-malina> and ready to send some testnet coins?
 875 2014-03-27 10:44:29 <ribasushi> Alina-malina: how many do you need and which address
 876 2014-03-27 10:44:41 <Alina-malina> list a litle to test multisig app
 877 2014-03-27 10:44:51 <Alina-malina> here is my testnet address: mz9RPWQ15y6FF62LZHKtKxSLC5Aqm73E7A
 878 2014-03-27 10:44:53 <ribasushi> Alina-malina: then just use https://tpfaucet.appspot.com/
 879 2014-03-27 10:45:04 <ribasushi> Alina-malina: 50btc per day or somesuch
 880 2014-03-27 10:45:12 <Alina-malina> hmmm
 881 2014-03-27 10:45:17 <Alina-malina> is that hard to install?
 882 2014-03-27 10:45:23 <ribasushi> sorry *7 btc
 883 2014-03-27 10:45:35 <ribasushi> hm used to be higher iirc ;)
 884 2014-03-27 10:45:36 <ribasushi> Alina-malina: you just... enter your address
 885 2014-03-27 10:45:39 <ribasushi> it's a webform ;)
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 887 2014-03-27 10:45:42 <Alina-malina> oh
 888 2014-03-27 10:45:45 <Alina-malina> heh
 889 2014-03-27 10:45:45 <wumpus> Alina-malina: sent some
 890 2014-03-27 10:45:46 <Alina-malina> sorry
 891 2014-03-27 10:45:52 <Alina-malina> ok thank you:)
 892 2014-03-27 10:45:59 <ribasushi> Alina-malina: "When you are done, please send your TestNet Bitcoins back to: mimoZNLcP2rrMRgdeX5PSnR7AjCqQveZZ4"
 893 2014-03-27 10:46:08 <Alina-malina> oki
 894 2014-03-27 10:46:28 <wumpus> does the faucet still work at all?
 895 2014-03-27 10:46:37 <Alina-malina> it says that the coins are on its way
 896 2014-03-27 10:46:40 <Alina-malina> but i still have 0.00
 897 2014-03-27 10:46:44 <Alina-malina> i hope it will arrive soonish hehe
 898 2014-03-27 10:46:46 <ribasushi> wumpus: it did for me
 899 2014-03-27 10:47:09 <ribasushi> Alina-malina: give it 60~120 sec or so ;)
 900 2014-03-27 10:47:21 <Alina-malina> hmmm k
 901 2014-03-27 10:47:29 <Alina-malina> waiting for them, cant wait to get some:)
 902 2014-03-27 10:47:33 <Alina-malina> for testing
 903 2014-03-27 10:49:46 <Alina-malina> ribasushi, hmm is it going to download the entire block chain?
 904 2014-03-27 10:49:49 <Alina-malina> how long it will take?
 905 2014-03-27 10:52:46 <ribasushi> Alina-malina: note - until a block is mined (1 confirmation) most clients will not display anything at all
 906 2014-03-27 10:52:47 <Alina-malina> ribasushi, hmmmm  it says this: "balance" : 0.00000000, and"blocks" : 38063,
 907 2014-03-27 10:54:23 <ribasushi> Alina-malina: no I meant until the transaction(s) that sent stuff to your address are included in at least one block, they are entirely unconfirmed, so many API calls will not display the balance at all
 908 2014-03-27 10:54:45 <Alina-malina> hmm so when do i expect the btc on the address?
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 912 2014-03-27 11:04:20 <HaltingState> while MtGox claimed to have lost 850,000 bitcoins due to malleability attacks, we merely observed a total of 302,000 bitcoins ever being involved in malleability attacks.
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 947 2014-03-27 11:52:36 <adawddaddw> Anyone familiar with PoS coins?
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 950 2014-03-27 11:54:03 <sipa> adawddaddw: off topic
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1022 2014-03-27 13:23:22 <Zoop_> http://arxiv.org/abs/1403.6676
1023 2014-03-27 13:23:28 <Zoop_> peer review please?
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1025 2014-03-27 13:24:15 <Diablo-D3> Zoop_: well, for what its worth
1026 2014-03-27 13:24:17 <Diablo-D3> I already knew it
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1028 2014-03-27 13:24:30 <Diablo-D3> it was just something mtgox made up to try to get away with it
1029 2014-03-27 13:24:32 <Zoop_> we all kinda knew
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1031 2014-03-27 13:24:57 <Zoop_> but now we have some proof through analysis
1032 2014-03-27 13:25:12 <Zoop_> (where are all the devs?)
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1034 2014-03-27 13:27:07 <epscy> secret dev meeting
1035 2014-03-27 13:27:12 <Diablo-D3> yeah
1036 2014-03-27 13:27:15 <Diablo-D3> even says so on the door
1037 2014-03-27 13:27:44 <epscy> they are all dressed up in robes, like in eyes wide shut
1038 2014-03-27 13:28:05 <epscy> i believe they plan to sacrafice some farmyard animals too
1039 2014-03-27 13:28:08 <wumpus> mtgox, yawn, what was that again?...
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1041 2014-03-27 13:29:40 <stonecoldpat> should this not be in #bitcoin-wizards ? (isn't that were research is discussed?)
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1043 2014-03-27 13:30:10 <sturles> Diablo-D3: Ehm..  Did you read the paper?  They "forgot" about the transactions with invalid (easily fixable) transactions which never got accepted by other nodes, but were published with signatures through their API.
1044 2014-03-27 13:30:45 <Diablo-D3> sturles: I didnt read it
1045 2014-03-27 13:30:52 <sturles> Diablo-D3: I.e. The Bug(TM)
1046 2014-03-27 13:31:21 <sturles> They haven't understood the problem.  Another worthless bitcoin paper.  Sigh.
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1058 2014-03-27 13:40:41 <maraoz> Are there any problems related to address reuse other than privacy problems?
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1060 2014-03-27 13:41:04 <stonecoldpat> if you have a bad random number generator, can lead to your coins being stolen
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1064 2014-03-27 13:42:40 <maraoz> Good point. If a business or charity wanted to show all the transactions they made, for transparency, is there a way that doesn't involve reusing the same address every time?
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1066 2014-03-27 13:43:51 <stonecoldpat> someone here will recommend a better method, but all transactions are linked, so as long as they publicly disclose their addresses - you can follow the chain of transactions
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1080 2014-03-27 13:59:51 <Alina-malina> hmmm
1081 2014-03-27 13:59:59 <Alina-malina> why i receive this error? error: Error parsing JSON:'[037ac39debe2
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1089 2014-03-27 14:09:09 <helo> maraoz: sure, see https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki
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1093 2014-03-27 14:11:42 <maraoz> helo: thanks
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1145 2014-03-27 14:57:06 <ft__> hello everyone, I just have a quick question regarding the blockchain. I'm trying to read all the blocks and transactions from a Java application. I tried the json rpc, but it becomes very slow once I reach blocks > 150k, because I need to do 1 request for each tx. now, I added an rpc method which returns a range of blocks including all the transactions within them, but it seems like it's losing a lot of time in json serialization, so I was wond
1146 2014-03-27 14:57:07 <ft__> ering if there would be a way for me to quickly access all the blockchain data from outside the c++ program ? if yes, how ? thank you.
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1166 2014-03-27 15:27:19 <maraoz> ft__: you can read block data directly from the files. Those can be found in bitcoin's data directory (~/.bitcoin in linux)
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1176 2014-03-27 15:38:35 * helo wonders what he is actually trying to do
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1187 2014-03-27 15:45:10 <ft__> maraoz, yes I did consider that but it seems like there are different cases to handle for parsing the blockchain directly and I believe it would be difficult to maintain it in the future.
1188 2014-03-27 15:45:27 <ft__> if I don
1189 2014-03-27 15:45:35 <ft__> 't have any other choice, I think this is what I
1190 2014-03-27 15:45:39 <ft__> ll end up doing.
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1194 2014-03-27 15:46:54 <ft__> helo, do you mean what I'm trying to do ?
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1211 2014-03-27 16:03:13 <maraoz> What's your application? What are you trying to parse the blockchain for?
1212 2014-03-27 16:03:32 <ft__> maraoz, to put all the txs in a graph (neo4j db).
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1226 2014-03-27 16:09:49 <maraoz> You should definitely be reading block data files IMO
1227 2014-03-27 16:10:44 <ft__> maraoz, I think that's what I'm going to do. I just didn't wanted to reimplement the blockchain parsing, but anyways I'll try to figure something out.
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1266 2014-03-27 17:08:50 <kadoban> is it important somehow that OP_VERIFY removes True but not False from the stack?  I mean if it's False, the transaction is invalid and there's no reason to continue execution, right?  Just checking I'm not missing something basic.
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1271 2014-03-27 17:16:41 <sipa> kadoban: no
1272 2014-03-27 17:16:45 <sipa> kadoban: doesn't matter
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1278 2014-03-27 17:20:21 <kadoban> Thanks
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1328 2014-03-27 17:51:05 <maaku> kadoban: that why it doesn't remove false - because it doesn't matter if it did
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1330 2014-03-27 17:51:11 <maaku> (small efficiency optimization)
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1347 2014-03-27 18:04:37 <kadoban> maaku: Ahh, I see, thanks.
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1366 2014-03-27 18:18:51 <dexX7> http://bitcoindev.us.to/en/developer-guide#block-header << "The time value must be greater than the time of the previous block. No peer will accept a block with a time currently more than two hours in the future according to the peer’s clock." -- is that correct? i assumed that the "time value must be within +- 2 hours of the median time of the last 11 blocks"?
1367 2014-03-27 18:19:37 <sipa> it's not correct
1368 2014-03-27 18:19:45 <sipa> it must be strictly after the median of the past 11 blocks
1369 2014-03-27 18:19:52 <gmaxwell> wtf why does it say that? :(
1370 2014-03-27 18:19:54 <sipa> and less than 2 hours in the future
1371 2014-03-27 18:19:55 <gmaxwell> fix fix
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1373 2014-03-27 18:20:15 <dexX7> ah thanks
1374 2014-03-27 18:20:19 <gmaxwell> (this is not something I've often seen people get wrong, except that it surprises some developers here and there)
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1380 2014-03-27 18:22:12 <dexX7> <sipa> and less than 2 hours in the future << are blocks which are more than 2 hours in the past allowed?
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1382 2014-03-27 18:22:42 <sipa> yes
1383 2014-03-27 18:22:50 <sipa> if that's after the median of the past 11 blocks
1384 2014-03-27 18:23:18 <sipa> (if more than 2 hours in the past wasn't allowed, syncing from scratch would be pretty impossible!)
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1386 2014-03-27 18:23:38 <dexX7> good point
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1433 2014-03-27 19:03:33 <bdhuser> From my reading of the wiki spec of the script language, is there ever a point to having more than one OP_ELSE as a branch of an OP_IF?
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1438 2014-03-27 19:07:00 <kazcw> it would be the same as putting the stuff in the second else before the first else (i.e. it would stick it to the end of the test==true case)
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1444 2014-03-27 19:09:06 <kazcw> because it's implemented by inverting the truthiness of the if's condition
1445 2014-03-27 19:09:52 <midnightmagic> Hrm. ProcessBlock() calls CheckBlock() -> inside CheckBlock theres: fail if: GetBlockTime() > GetAdjustedTime() + 2 * 60 * 60, GetAdjustedTime() is current time + GetTimeOffset() (which is the median of the network time). So rule #1 is no blocks newer than two hours past the network time. Rule #2 is in AddBlock, fail if: GetBlockTime() <= pindexPrev->GetMedianTimePast(), GetMedianTimePast() is the median of the *prior* 11 blocks.
1446 2014-03-27 19:09:59 <midnightmagic> Therefore, at most since the last 11 blocks highest stretch is by two hours each, the greatest backwards-in-time stamp is..  10 hours then, if the last 11 blocks all differed by two hours plus, each?
1447 2014-03-27 19:10:05 <bdhuser> kazcw: sorry, not sure I understood that. My problem is, the wiki suggests that an OP_ELSE can run when a preceeding OP_ELSE has failed, I dont get how that can happen
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1449 2014-03-27 19:10:37 <midnightmagic> Huh. So it's not +/- two hours.
1450 2014-03-27 19:10:55 <bdhuser> kazcw: it says " If the preceding OP_IF or OP_NOTIF or OP_ELSE was not executed then these statements are and if the preceding OP_IF or OP_NOTIF or OP_ELSE was executed then these statements are not."
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1452 2014-03-27 19:11:46 <bdhuser> for when OP_ELSE statements are executed
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1457 2014-03-27 19:13:14 <kazcw> the ELSE is executed if the previous clause was not, so if the previous clause was an ELSE then the two elses effectively cancel out and the second ELSE will execute iffi the clause before the first ELSE was
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1459 2014-03-27 19:13:34 <dexX7> midnightmagic: http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2014/03/27#l1395944454
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1463 2014-03-27 19:15:37 <midnightmagic> dexX7: Yes, that's why I looked into it, since the *maximum* of the backwards-in-time warp I don't think has been fully explained very often.
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1467 2014-03-27 19:17:47 <midnightmagic> the median means that going further back than the maximum is impossible since the earlier samples are removed from the calculation.
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1470 2014-03-27 19:20:19 <dexX7> rephrased: each median high is equal or higher than the highest median high until this point?
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1472 2014-03-27 19:21:35 <bdhuser> kazcw: You seem to be saying that the second (and last) else will execute if the first OF_IP did? that seems to contradict wiki?
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1475 2014-03-27 19:22:22 <kazcw> bdhuser: I don't know what magicaltux's wiki says but the source is very clear
1476 2014-03-27 19:22:58 <bdhuser> kazcw: I think I'm misreading it, sorry, I think I get it now, thank you!
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1478 2014-03-27 19:23:35 <dexX7> bdhuser: if (condition) { ... } else { ... } else { ... } -- is there any way the second else block can ever be reached? i don't think so.
1479 2014-03-27 19:23:42 <kazcw> if you have OP_IF <a> OP_ELSE <b> OP_ELSE <c> OP_ELSE <d> OP_ENDIF, it's the same as OP_IF <a> <d> OP_ELSE _<b> <c> OP_ENDIF (and similarly for any number of elses). There's no reason to do it with multiple OP_ELSEs, but you can.
1480 2014-03-27 19:24:08 <dexX7> you could nest them however to create something similar to else ifs
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1484 2014-03-27 19:27:03 <kazcw> bah I typed those out of order... read as IF <a> <c> OP_ELSE _<b> <d> OP_ENDIF. Everything within the if/endif following an even number of elses (including 0) is together.
1485 2014-03-27 19:27:05 <bdhuser> lol, and now that I thought I understood, thought it would be equal to OP_IF <a> <c> OP_ELSE _<b> <d> OP_ENDIF ? every other else is done
1486 2014-03-27 19:27:08 <bdhuser> ah ok
1487 2014-03-27 19:27:25 <bdhuser> kazcw: thanks!
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1499 2014-03-27 19:39:06 <midnightmagic> dexX7: To create the greatest possible *decrease* from the current head block requires the greatest possible median from the previous 11 blocks, which appears to require that you create 11 blocks with the other rule (2 hours positive). the median rule just tends towards the median, it doesn't increase the sample spread.
1500 2014-03-27 19:39:11 <midnightmagic> .. i think.
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1502 2014-03-27 19:41:38 <midnightmagic> given honest block creation time, expected maximum decrease is .. mm..  minus an hour I guess, reduced by the hashrate increase for that period.
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1515 2014-03-27 19:58:01 <dexX7> okay i tested it. the block time can go backwards (we know already) and the median can also go lower than an previous medians, but if we try to use the lowest allowed time it will finally approach a freezed, non increasing, but also not further decreasing time
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1517 2014-03-27 20:00:37 <dexX7> http://i.imgur.com/4oF8AOl.png
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1520 2014-03-27 20:01:20 <dexX7> well, ignore the blue line. but i think it's clear now
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1565 2014-03-27 20:48:44 <rdbell> I'm using AES to encrypt a JSON string of private keys for storage (to be recovered later). How do I choose a padding-scheme to make sure the input string is a multiple of 16 in byte-length? Can I just pad whitespace to the end of my string? Should I be using something like PKCS7/ISO10126 instead?
1566 2014-03-27 20:49:13 Gyps has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1568 2014-03-27 20:51:42 <rdbell> If I pad with spaces... I know the data is always going to be a JSON string I don't have to worry about important data being clipped off as part of the "de-padding" process in the decryption function. JSON strings wouldn't normally end with spaces anyway.
1569 2014-03-27 20:52:07 <rdbell> So I think padding with spaces is ok? Unless someone can give me some reason not to.
1570 2014-03-27 20:52:25 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1571 2014-03-27 20:53:01 <kazcw> rdbell: why are you using such low-level tools that you need to handle padding yourself? It's unnecessarily error-prone unless you have some reason not to use openssl or similar to handle that stuff for you
1572 2014-03-27 20:53:56 <rdbell> kazcw: Python "Crypto" package requires you pad the data yourself.
1573 2014-03-27 20:55:10 samson_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1575 2014-03-27 20:57:08 <rdbell> I know these are famous last words... but "I don't see what could go wrong" with padding the data myself with spaces.
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1586 2014-03-27 21:08:13 <kazcw> well, I don't see what could go wrong either :) No choice of padding would break the encryption, and standards-compliant JSON parsers won't care about the addition or deletion of trailing whitespace.
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1592 2014-03-27 21:13:50 <rdbell> kazcw: Yep, I'm thinking the same thing. I'll do some testing before I rely on this for important backups.
1593 2014-03-27 21:14:38 <shesek> rdbell, I don't know that library, but I think that the main concern for me would've been that if the library requires me to handle padding myself, then it might be too low-level
1594 2014-03-27 21:14:47 <shesek> and perhaps has other tricky things that one should be aware of
1595 2014-03-27 21:15:51 latenite has joined
1596 2014-03-27 21:16:35 <Gokuson> in main.cpp bitcoinminer() how would one get the current block? pindexbest?
1597 2014-03-27 21:17:10 InsiderJoe has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1598 2014-03-27 21:17:11 <kazcw> Gokuson: what bitcoin version are you looking at?
1599 2014-03-27 21:17:22 <Gokuson> newest
1600 2014-03-27 21:18:02 <kazcw> could you tell me what commit?
1601 2014-03-27 21:19:18 MaxSan has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1602 2014-03-27 21:19:19 <Gokuson> oh snap, guess its not in the latest
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1605 2014-03-27 21:19:50 <rdbell> shesek: Yeah, that's a valid concern. PyCrypto seems to be the most common choice for cryptography with Python. I don't believe it's too low-level though. See this example: http://pastebin.com/W5hKQMGe
1606 2014-03-27 21:20:57 <Gokuson> looks like its 0.8.6 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/0.8.6/src/main.cpp#L4544
1607 2014-03-27 21:21:07 agricocb has joined
1608 2014-03-27 21:21:12 <rdbell> shesek: In the case of that example, the key and input string are both 16 bytes so it works-as is.
1609 2014-03-27 21:21:42 justusranvier has joined
1610 2014-03-27 21:21:46 <Gokuson> if currentblock > somenumber {do something}else{do something else} is my goal
1611 2014-03-27 21:21:55 <Gokuson> in that function
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1614 2014-03-27 21:25:12 <kazcw> Working on an alt, are we :) ? There's precedent for such a behavior switch, check out how fStrictPayToScriptHash is determined
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1618 2014-03-27 21:26:13 <Luke-Jr> Gokuson: altcoins are off-topic here
1619 2014-03-27 21:26:59 Ghaleon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1620 2014-03-27 21:27:05 <Gokuson> i didnt ask about an alt luke :)
1621 2014-03-27 21:27:13 <Gokuson> im asking about an older version of bitcoin
1622 2014-03-27 21:27:23 MaxSan has joined
1623 2014-03-27 21:27:36 <Gokuson> you can clearly read what i wrote if you scroll up.
1624 2014-03-27 21:27:47 uiop has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1625 2014-03-27 21:27:49 <Luke-Jr> I didn't say you did.
1626 2014-03-27 21:27:57 <Gokuson> Luke-Jr| Gokuson: altcoins are off-topic here
1627 2014-03-27 21:27:59 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1628 2014-03-27 21:28:05 <Gokuson> thanks for the warning then :)
1629 2014-03-27 21:28:09 <Luke-Jr> np
1630 2014-03-27 21:28:44 <Gokuson> anyways thanks kaz ill check it out
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1651 2014-03-27 22:00:22 <espringe> Running: `lsof` on bitcoind ... shows 3 TCP connections in CLOSE_WAIT state, on the RPC port
1652 2014-03-27 22:00:31 <espringe> and I'm not able to use RPC to communicate with bitcoind at all
1653 2014-03-27 22:01:06 <espringe> I'm assuming this must be some kind of bitcoind bug, not properly releasing the connection
1654 2014-03-27 22:01:48 <beachandbytes> what is your timeout set to
1655 2014-03-27 22:02:00 <espringe> default
1656 2014-03-27 22:02:11 <espringe> bitcoind 0.9
1657 2014-03-27 22:03:20 <SoftwareMechanic> huh, anyone having issues building the head of the bitcoin repo?
1658 2014-03-27 22:03:25 <SoftwareMechanic> I get   CXX    init.o
1659 2014-03-27 22:03:26 <SoftwareMechanic> g++: internal compiler error: Killed (program cc1plus)
1660 2014-03-27 22:03:26 <SoftwareMechanic> Please submit a full bug report,
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1662 2014-03-27 22:03:47 <espringe> Seems like default rpctimeout is 30 seconds. But these connections have been in CLOSE_WAIT state for > 10 minutes
1663 2014-03-27 22:03:58 Arnavion has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1665 2014-03-27 22:05:43 <Luke-Jr> SoftwareMechanic: sounds like it ran out of memory compiling
1666 2014-03-27 22:06:00 <SoftwareMechanic> ahh
1667 2014-03-27 22:07:03 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: ping
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1672 2014-03-27 22:24:30 <bdhuser> If an opcode for hashing (e.g. OP_SHA256) appears in the middle of some script, what is used as input, and where does output go?
1673 2014-03-27 22:24:49 espringe_ has joined
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1675 2014-03-27 22:24:58 espringe_ is now known as espringe
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1677 2014-03-27 22:25:17 <lnovy> espringe: CLOSE_WAIT should have nothing to do with timeouts, this state means, that remote host has closed the connection (bitcoind side has recieved FIN), but the application hasn't closed the socket yet. Seems like a bug.
1678 2014-03-27 22:25:26 <Luke-Jr> bdhuser: that's obvious
1679 2014-03-27 22:25:41 <bdhuser> Luke-Jr: Im just getting into scripts, so to me Im afraid it isnt
1680 2014-03-27 22:25:42 <Luke-Jr> bdhuser: I can't think of any situation where someone should ask that.
1681 2014-03-27 22:25:52 <Luke-Jr> bdhuser: did you read the wiki page on Script?
1682 2014-03-27 22:25:53 <SoftwareMechanic> @Luke-Jr, ya, that was it
1683 2014-03-27 22:26:02 <bdhuser> Im reading it
1684 2014-03-27 22:26:15 <kadoban> bdhuser: it's a stack language, the stack is the usual place input/outputs go.  specifically the top item on the stack
1685 2014-03-27 22:27:31 <bdhuser> kadoban: I see, makes sense, thanks
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1697 2014-03-27 22:37:48 hmsimha has joined
1698 2014-03-27 22:37:52 Application has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1699 2014-03-27 22:38:29 <maaku> bdhuser: read stack.cpp
1700 2014-03-27 22:38:39 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1701 2014-03-27 22:38:44 <maaku> it's better documentation than anything out there
1702 2014-03-27 22:38:46 raid5 has quit ()
1703 2014-03-27 22:39:15 <bdhuser> I once opened main.cpp, just seemed crazy, so Ive been trying to go off wikies+irc, but not so easy
1704 2014-03-27 22:39:25 ahbritto has joined
1705 2014-03-27 22:39:33 <bdhuser> Ill give it another shot
1706 2014-03-27 22:39:52 Emzy has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
1707 2014-03-27 22:40:18 <lnovy> espringe: are there two instanced of bitcoind running by accident?
1708 2014-03-27 22:40:31 <espringe> lnovy: Nope
1709 2014-03-27 22:41:09 <espringe> I can reproduce the issue pretty easy. Start bitcoind, hit it with some rpc calls while terminating a few connections mid way through
1710 2014-03-27 22:41:31 <espringe> And the sockets get stuck in CLOSE_WAIT
1711 2014-03-27 22:41:31 windy1024 has quit (Quit: windy1024)
1712 2014-03-27 22:41:34 Baz_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1713 2014-03-27 22:41:39 <dgenr8> Luke-Jr: re your question in PR#3354.  "no" and "respends that a third party could have created should not be relayed"
1714 2014-03-27 22:41:44 <espringe> When 3 sockets get stuck in CLOSE_WAIT, bitcoind is not responsive at all
1715 2014-03-27 22:42:34 Charlie has left ("Part")
1716 2014-03-27 22:43:46 <lnovy> espringe: have you tried to connect from different host? maybe you get blocked?
1717 2014-03-27 22:44:13 <espringe> Doesn't help
1718 2014-03-27 22:44:49 <lnovy> espringe: well... git-bisect it :)
1719 2014-03-27 22:44:53 <espringe> I created a bug for it, I think it's just bitcoind leaking some resources :D
1720 2014-03-27 22:45:35 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
1721 2014-03-27 22:45:43 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: sounds pretty useless then? :P
1722 2014-03-27 22:45:49 icantprogram is now known as ahmed_
1723 2014-03-27 22:46:08 <lnovy> espringe: maybe a race... if the bug is reported, good job :)
1724 2014-03-27 22:46:10 rnicoll has joined
1725 2014-03-27 22:46:11 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: I'll just double-spend with a non-standard transaction, and you'll never notice.. :P
1726 2014-03-27 22:46:24 <Apocalyptic> dat Luke
1727 2014-03-27 22:46:35 <dgenr8> Unless you sign it, it has to go to the same outputs
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1737 2014-03-27 22:52:51 <dgenr8> If your point is that mutant != non-standard, I don't dispute it.  Things move forward though by flagging respends.
1738 2014-03-27 22:55:13 ielo has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1739 2014-03-27 22:55:59 <lechuga_> what's a merchant implementing bip70 supposed to do if the customer's wallet includes a malformed txn in its Payment message?
1740 2014-03-27 22:56:06 <lechuga_> there doesnt seem to be a PaymentNACK
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1744 2014-03-27 22:58:55 Application has joined
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1747 2014-03-27 23:00:11 daibasen has quit (Quit: daibasen)
1748 2014-03-27 23:01:14 SoftwareMechanic has quit (Quit: SoftwareMechanic)
1749 2014-03-27 23:02:19 Guest64842 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1750 2014-03-27 23:02:59 <zone117x> can someone please point me to where in the btc source diff1 is defined?
1751 2014-03-27 23:03:35 <shesek> lechuga_, it was discussed on the mailing list some time ago... perhaps you should look that up
1752 2014-03-27 23:04:17 SoftwareMechanic has joined
1753 2014-03-27 23:04:46 jg_phone has joined
1754 2014-03-27 23:05:06 <olalonde> lechuga_: presumably, honest clients won't send malformed TX. maybe informing malicious clients that they did something wrong is not the important
1755 2014-03-27 23:05:09 <olalonde> (just a guess)
1756 2014-03-27 23:05:20 <shesek> http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/thread/lc409d%244mf%241%40ger.gmane.org/#msg31888060
1757 2014-03-27 23:05:58 <jg_phone> Honest clients might mutate a TX
1758 2014-03-27 23:06:14 DougieBot5000 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1759 2014-03-27 23:06:34 <kazcw> "mutate"?
1760 2014-03-27 23:06:36 <olalonde> jg_phone: what do you mean?
1761 2014-03-27 23:07:31 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: hi
1762 2014-03-27 23:07:59 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
1763 2014-03-27 23:08:01 <maaku> how do I get the coinbase tx of a CBlockIndex ?
1764 2014-03-27 23:10:10 Gyps has quit (Quit: Gyps)
1765 2014-03-27 23:10:45 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1766 2014-03-27 23:11:21 <Luke-Jr> maaku: the same way you get any tx in it?
1767 2014-03-27 23:11:26 qwdf has joined
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1769 2014-03-27 23:12:15 <maaku> Luke-Jr: I don't know the txid
1770 2014-03-27 23:12:29 ValicekB has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1771 2014-03-27 23:12:38 OneFixt has joined
1772 2014-03-27 23:12:39 <Luke-Jr> maaku: CBlock block; block.ReadFromDisk(pblockindex);
1773 2014-03-27 23:12:39 _yoy_ has joined
1774 2014-03-27 23:13:00 <Luke-Jr> block.vtx[0]
1775 2014-03-27 23:13:06 Plinker_ has joined
1776 2014-03-27 23:13:27 <maaku> hrm that might not be pruning safe
1777 2014-03-27 23:13:40 Ghaleon has joined
1778 2014-03-27 23:13:40 <maaku> is there a way to get the merkle tree, and then pull the first element from that?
1779 2014-03-27 23:14:33 SoftwareMechanic has quit (Quit: SoftwareMechanic)
1780 2014-03-27 23:15:01 daibasen has joined
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1783 2014-03-27 23:16:41 ValicekB has joined
1784 2014-03-27 23:16:45 <Luke-Jr> maaku: using a txid isn't pruning-safe either (in fact, less safe)
1785 2014-03-27 23:16:51 jg_phone has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com ))
1786 2014-03-27 23:17:24 merica has joined
1787 2014-03-27 23:18:10 <maaku> Luke-Jr: it is for this application
1788 2014-03-27 23:18:17 <maaku> i'm fetching the coinbase transaction which just matured
1789 2014-03-27 23:19:29 <maaku> so other transactions of that block might have been pruned, but certainly not the coinbase (yet)
1790 2014-03-27 23:21:07 <Luke-Jr> if it just matured, it can have been spent already
1791 2014-03-27 23:21:32 merica has quit ()
1792 2014-03-27 23:22:36 <maaku> within the context of AcceptBlock()
1793 2014-03-27 23:23:00 <olalonde> anyone knows where COIN is defined?
1794 2014-03-27 23:23:07 <maaku> olalonde: util.h
1795 2014-03-27 23:23:23 <maaku> so the first time its outputs can be spent is in the block being processed
1796 2014-03-27 23:23:27 <olalonde> oh thanks
1797 2014-03-27 23:24:22 banghouse has joined
1798 2014-03-27 23:25:43 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1799 2014-03-27 23:26:12 <Luke-Jr> maaku: in the context of AcceptBlock(), you need to use vtx[0]
1800 2014-03-27 23:26:23 johnsoft has joined
1801 2014-03-27 23:26:29 <Luke-Jr> maaku: and ReadFromDisk would fail since it hasn't been written yet
1802 2014-03-27 23:26:36 cpacia has joined
1803 2014-03-27 23:26:56 <Luke-Jr> maaku: note that AcceptBlock may be called with block templates, not just real blocks
1804 2014-03-27 23:27:00 <maaku> Luke-Jr: maybe I'm not explaining well
1805 2014-03-27 23:27:22 impulse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1806 2014-03-27 23:27:28 <maaku> in the context of AcceptBlock, I want to go COINBASE_MATURITY blocks back, and examine *that* coinbase
1807 2014-03-27 23:28:17 paracyst has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1808 2014-03-27 23:28:48 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, lol this is funny
1809 2014-03-27 23:28:48 zxcvbnm has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1810 2014-03-27 23:29:04 <Luke-Jr> maaku: ah
1811 2014-03-27 23:29:08 <phantomcircuit> i wrote an insanely simple heartbeat daemon, it just sends a single udp packet with the machines mac address
1812 2014-03-27 23:29:11 <Luke-Jr> maaku: I think you need to ReadFromDisk then.
1813 2014-03-27 23:29:20 <phantomcircuit> a certain person cant figure out how im getting the machines ip address
1814 2014-03-27 23:29:23 <phantomcircuit> lololol
1815 2014-03-27 23:29:32 <phantomcircuit> *magic*
1816 2014-03-27 23:29:36 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: O.o
1817 2014-03-27 23:29:45 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: a certain person?
1818 2014-03-27 23:29:58 <phantomcircuit> (to be fair there is a bunch of nat here so it's probably not safe to assume there is even a return path)
1819 2014-03-27 23:30:07 <Luke-Jr> >_<
1820 2014-03-27 23:31:12 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, i could probably mix everything up into a single tcp connection
1821 2014-03-27 23:31:16 <BlueMatt> anyone else like the screenshot of hal's wallet in the forbes piece?
1822 2014-03-27 23:31:24 <phantomcircuit> but that sounds not fun when writing daemons in c without any libraries...
1823 2014-03-27 23:31:42 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: multicast
1824 2014-03-27 23:31:42 <BlueMatt> 1/10/09 mined 50 BTC....
1825 2014-03-27 23:31:59 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, doesn't work on this network
1826 2014-03-27 23:32:06 dreyzehner has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
1827 2014-03-27 23:32:08 <phantomcircuit> the lan is segmented
1828 2014-03-27 23:32:14 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: fire your network admin?
1829 2014-03-27 23:32:15 * Luke-Jr hides
1830 2014-03-27 23:32:52 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, heh
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1869 2014-03-27 23:54:35 <midnightmagic> it was kind of whoever it was who did the release notes to put me on there. don't worry, I won't go around saying I'm a core developer! :-D
1870 2014-03-27 23:54:59 <dgenr8> BlueMatt: that looks like my wallet in regtest
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1880 2014-03-27 23:56:10 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: that is the git log of everyone with a commit in a release..................
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1882 2014-03-27 23:56:21 <midnightmagic> BlueMatt: even so. :)
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1887 2014-03-27 23:56:56 <sipa> maaku: there's no way of doing that except by reading the entire block
1888 2014-03-27 23:57:05 <maaku> sipa: :(
1889 2014-03-27 23:57:07 <BlueMatt> though there are people who call themselves core devs who probably have fewer commits than you
1890 2014-03-27 23:57:30 <midnightmagic> yes i know. I'm mocking them.
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1894 2014-03-27 23:57:47 <sipa> maaku: for some of the more advanced usages (commitments, ...) it probably makes sense to just store all coin transactions and keep them accessible in a different way
1895 2014-03-27 23:57:56 <sipa> *coinbase
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1899 2014-03-27 23:58:39 <maaku> yes, it looks like some extra code will have to be written for this before pruning is implemented
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1904 2014-03-27 23:59:05 <sipa> what does pruning have to do with it?
1905 2014-03-27 23:59:24 <maaku> pruning could cause ReadBlockFromDisk() to fail
1906 2014-03-27 23:59:26 <sipa> ah, the fact that full blocks might not be accessible anymore
1907 2014-03-27 23:59:41 <sipa> right, i was already assuming that reading full blocks was out of the question anyway