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   2 2014-03-28 00:00:09 <maaku> well it gets the job done for now. it's currently a safe assumption, right?
   3 2014-03-28 00:00:14 <sipa> yes
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   8 2014-03-28 00:01:07 <maaku> er, the opposite. I mean it's safe for now to assume that you *can* read a full block prior in the chain history, right?
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  14 2014-03-28 00:01:53 <sipa> yes
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  23 2014-03-28 00:05:20 <maaku> ok thanks
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  67 2014-03-28 00:53:28 <pootietang> hey guys, we noticed that there are lots of fake transactions on the blockchain, is there an ongoing attack on the network?
  68 2014-03-28 00:54:00 <lianj> pootietang: fake?
  69 2014-03-28 00:54:01 <pootietang> I mean n the mempool, not the blockchain
  70 2014-03-28 00:54:31 <pootietang> yes, large transactions
  71 2014-03-28 00:55:02 <lianj> if they are in the mempool, they are checked. how can they be fake then?
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  81 2014-03-28 01:00:22 <pootietang> here's an example: http://pastebin.com/wpDHw98p
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  91 2014-03-28 01:05:12 <sipa> doesn't load
  92 2014-03-28 01:05:22 <Luke-Jr> loads, but I see nothing odd
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  94 2014-03-28 01:05:41 <sipa> what do you mean by 'fake' anyway?
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  96 2014-03-28 01:07:40 <pootietang> sipa: I'm not sure if they are fake, did you see the one I juste put up?
  97 2014-03-28 01:07:50 <sipa> no
  98 2014-03-28 01:08:00 <midnightmagic> Who's 'we'?
  99 2014-03-28 01:08:17 <sipa> but i don't even understamd what concept you may be referring to by 'fake'
 100 2014-03-28 01:08:39 <sipa> bitcoin validates everything, so either it is invalid and ignored, or valid and accepted
 101 2014-03-28 01:09:04 <pootietang> looking through the inputs, they have the same txid, they seem forged
 102 2014-03-28 01:09:04 <lechuga_> shesek, olalonde: belated thx re: bip70
 103 2014-03-28 01:09:11 <lechuga_> luke-jr: :)
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 105 2014-03-28 01:10:19 <sipa> pootietang: thry just consume many outouts created by the same transaction
 106 2014-03-28 01:10:25 <sipa> pootietang: perfectly valid
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 109 2014-03-28 01:11:11 <sipa> *they, outputs
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 112 2014-03-28 01:11:40 <sipa> (it's unusual though; perhaps some dos attack)
 113 2014-03-28 01:12:12 <sipa> but not invalid; just larger than necessary at most
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 116 2014-03-28 01:13:50 <LarsLarsen> There is really nothing preventing a ridonkulous number of outputs except the chance miners will drop it for sheer size right?
 117 2014-03-28 01:13:51 <pootietang> sipa: ok thanks a lot
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 120 2014-03-28 01:14:39 <sipa> LarsLarsen: miners will demand a large fee
 121 2014-03-28 01:15:10 <LarsLarsen> sipa: commensurate with its size,  yeah,  which is why sharing transaction fees in joined transactions wont really save you much at all.
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 123 2014-03-28 01:15:25 <LarsLarsen> sipa: just some overhead
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 126 2014-03-28 01:19:54 <pootietang> sipa: if that transaction is valid, why doesn't appear on blockchain.info?
 127 2014-03-28 01:20:08 <pootietang> here's the hash: b6c57ca5418c2b0fc0e89fcaf8a8729f30f2fba608748048e0f44626d89ca38f
 128 2014-03-28 01:20:41 <dgenr8> Is there an effort to make the standards for relaying the same as those for inclusion in a block?
 129 2014-03-28 01:21:01 askmike has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 131 2014-03-28 01:21:42 <LarsLarsen> There is no standard for inclusion in a block,  other than being valid
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 134 2014-03-28 01:23:06 <dgenr8> Why not relay all valid?
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 138 2014-03-28 01:24:59 <dgenr8> txmall
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 140 2014-03-28 01:25:52 <dgenr8> but other than that ...
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 144 2014-03-28 01:27:30 <dgenr8> sorry if this is a faq.  the two code sections are structured differently so its not obvious to me
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 154 2014-03-28 01:30:24 <kazcw> To limit the impact of any kind of maliciously-crafted or unusually costly non-standard script. Some potential types of bad transactions would do less damage if they're hard to get into blocks.
 155 2014-03-28 01:31:37 <kazcw> s/blocks/blocks and mempools/
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 162 2014-03-28 01:36:51 <topynate> i've been wondering about that. the expensive operations are the cryptographic ones - wouldn't static analysis be enough to put an upper bound on how many of them a script could execute?
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 168 2014-03-28 01:40:12 <kazcw> there's an upper bound on sigops, but how sure are we that that's the only way the scripting language can be abused -- or will be able to be abused after seemingly innocuous future changes?
 169 2014-03-28 01:41:24 <dgenr8> thanks for your time kazcw
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 171 2014-03-28 01:42:21 <topynate> well, we can't. not without formal verification, anyway. but how is making it harder to get something that devious into a block protective? once it was in a block every full node would end up executing it anyway.
 172 2014-03-28 01:43:00 phantomspark has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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 174 2014-03-28 01:44:01 <topynate> incidentally, has anyone ever proposed formally verifying all or part of bitcoin core? it's comparable in LOC to another large formally verified program.
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 176 2014-03-28 01:44:54 <kazcw> It covers stuff that's problematic in the mempool. For stuff that's expensive in blocks, it helps because there are fewer miners who would need to update or to change their policies in order to prevent future such transactions being mined.
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 192 2014-03-28 02:00:47 <copumpkin> anyone know of bitcoin-qt compiled for ARM floating around? or do I have to build it myself
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 200 2014-03-28 02:06:33 <beethoven8201> ;;google "bitcoin-qt raspberry pi"
 201 2014-03-28 02:06:33 <gribble> Tutorial how to run Bitcoin-qt on the Raspberry Pi » CoinCafe.net: <http://coincafe.net/2013/07/06/how-to-run-bitcoin-qt-on-the-raspberry-pi/>; Raspberry Pi • View topic - Devcoin-qt and Bitcoin-qt @ rpi: <http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=21681&p=207323>; Bitcoin with Raspberry Pi - Bitcoin Forum: <https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=191729.0>
 202 2014-03-28 02:06:42 <beethoven8201> copumpkin: sorry that's the best I can do
 203 2014-03-28 02:06:51 <copumpkin> yeah, I saw a few of those that just said to compile it
 204 2014-03-28 02:06:56 <copumpkin> was hoping to avoid that, but am compiling now :)
 205 2014-03-28 02:07:04 <copumpkin> not on a raspberry pi, at least
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 207 2014-03-28 02:07:20 <beethoven8201> copumpkin: I almost want to run an ARM emulator for the sole purpose of avoiding compilation on slow hardware
 208 2014-03-28 02:07:41 <beethoven8201> but I guess that's what cross compiling is for
 209 2014-03-28 02:07:41 <kazcw> that's what cross-compilation is for...
 210 2014-03-28 02:07:45 <kazcw> heh
 211 2014-03-28 02:07:45 <beethoven8201> yes
 212 2014-03-28 02:07:47 <beethoven8201> junx
 213 2014-03-28 02:07:48 <beethoven8201> jinx
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 216 2014-03-28 02:08:44 <beethoven8201> kazcw: in my dreams I do all the work in the vm and just copy it into an embedded device.. all libraries included
 217 2014-03-28 02:08:54 <beethoven8201> cross compiling and deploying was hard last time I had to do it
 218 2014-03-28 02:09:50 <copumpkin> let's see how fast this is
 219 2014-03-28 02:10:10 <beethoven8201> copumpkin: if I may ask -- what are you deploying on... an android or something?
 220 2014-03-28 02:11:58 <copumpkin> I bought myself one of these and figured I'd put bitcoin on it: http://utilite-computer.com/web/utilite-models
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 224 2014-03-28 02:13:31 <emowataji> nifty
 225 2014-03-28 02:14:15 <maaku> adam3us gmaxwell sipa : here is a branch with soft-fork rules to add commitments outside of the coinbase, by means of a miner-can-spend output
 226 2014-03-28 02:14:16 <maaku> https://github.com/maaku/bitcoin/tree/coinbase-commitments
 227 2014-03-28 02:14:35 <maaku> I need to write a draft BIP for the mailing list before I'll turn it into a pull request
 228 2014-03-28 02:14:38 <maaku> but comments are welcome
 229 2014-03-28 02:15:29 <maaku> (this would be the mechanism for putting block header commitments for spv proofs, or utxo commitments into a block, in a way that you don't have to include the coinbase transaction or an ugly midstate)
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 232 2014-03-28 02:17:01 <emowataji> copumpkin: which one did you get?
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 235 2014-03-28 02:19:09 <copumpkin> rightmost
 236 2014-03-28 02:19:26 <copumpkin> just plugged it in an hour or so ago
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 239 2014-03-28 02:21:41 <emowataji> nice. tempting to get one haha!
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 246 2014-03-28 02:26:42 <copumpkin> yup :)
 247 2014-03-28 02:26:49 <copumpkin> it's not without hiccups, but it's a neat little piece of hardware
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 302 2014-03-28 03:28:30 <topynate> are the conditions for the serialized script of a BIP16 spend to be standard, exactly the same as those for other kinds of scripts?
 303 2014-03-28 03:28:57 <topynate> so for instance if i made a 3-of-4 P2SH transaction, how easy would it be to spend it?
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 312 2014-03-28 03:34:37 <sipa> topynate: trivial
 313 2014-03-28 03:35:01 <sipa> topynate: all the same standardness rules apply, except for the max 3 keys limitation on muktisig
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 315 2014-03-28 03:37:15 <topynate> interesting. could BIP16 be updated with that exception?
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 320 2014-03-28 03:46:59 <charlefoo> anyone here familiar with BIP 32?
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 324 2014-03-28 03:49:42 <charlefoo> I have question about BIP 32
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 333 2014-03-28 03:53:38 <kazcw> don't ask to ask, just ask
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 341 2014-03-28 04:00:52 <charliefr> can someone explain the idea/importance of hardened keys in BIP 32?
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 440 2014-03-28 05:59:31 <maaku> topynate: the 3 key limitation is a default relay rule, not a protocol rule
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 444 2014-03-28 06:00:56 <topynate> maaku: is standardness not a suitable topic for inclusion in a BIP?
 445 2014-03-28 06:01:00 tombtc has joined
 446 2014-03-28 06:02:02 <topynate> maaku: i mean, it should be documented somewhere, it seems like the most logical place is with the associated feature
 447 2014-03-28 06:04:05 ericmuyser has joined
 448 2014-03-28 06:04:23 <Burrito> charliefr, I think for hardened keys, parent public keys cannot be used to calculate child public keys. Also, "Given a parent extended public key (Kpar,cpar) and a non-hardened child private key (ki), it is easy to find kpar."
 449 2014-03-28 06:04:23 <Burrito> So in the event of an exposed parent extended public key and one of its hardened child parent keys, it is hard to find the parent of that extended private key.
 450 2014-03-28 06:04:23 <Burrito> The "Security" section of the proposal is more bullet-pointed outline about what is and isn't possible with hardened/non-hardened keys: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki#security
 451 2014-03-28 06:05:15 <topynate> maaku: in fact it _is_ documented in BIP16, just not accurately - which is why i submitted a pull req
 452 2014-03-28 06:05:59 <charliefr> "Given a parent extended public key (Kpar,cpar) and a non-hardened child private key (ki), it is easy to find kpar."  How exactly?
 453 2014-03-28 06:06:06 fehrh has joined
 454 2014-03-28 06:06:10 <charliefr> slash where can i find the details on that?
 455 2014-03-28 06:06:46 qwdf has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 456 2014-03-28 06:07:39 <Burrito> charliefr, Like this, I gather. https://github.com/vbuterin/pybitcointools/blob/master/bitcoin/deterministic.py#L35 -- I don't think that code module yet accounts for hardened keys at all, it appears new in the proposal.
 457 2014-03-28 06:07:48 <Burrito> Line 35 of that file
 458 2014-03-28 06:08:19 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 460 2014-03-28 06:09:06 <Burrito> The function it refers to at the end is here https://github.com/vbuterin/pybitcointools/blob/master/bitcoin/main.py#L261
 461 2014-03-28 06:09:36 lolstate has quit (Quit: lolstate)
 462 2014-03-28 06:10:01 <Burrito> charliefr, rather than line 35 in that first file, look at line 118 (as well)
 463 2014-03-28 06:10:18 lolstate has joined
 464 2014-03-28 06:11:01 <neotap> hi can some one help me compile bitcoin 0.9.0  on linux,  every time i try to makefile i get " *** No rule to make target `makefile.unix'"
 465 2014-03-28 06:11:14 utfib has joined
 466 2014-03-28 06:11:36 <Luke-Jr> neotap: #bitcoin (or just follow any standard Linux build instructions)
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 469 2014-03-28 06:13:09 <neotap> i followed  the standard linux   build instruction. over at the doc section.
 470 2014-03-28 06:13:45 <Luke-Jr> neotap: this is #bitcoin-dev, for development discussion. if you want support, you need to ask somewhere else
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 473 2014-03-28 06:15:58 <maaku> topynate: no, the IsStandard() test is a quirky feature of Bitcoin Core . by its very nature it is NOT something which other implementations should be striving for compatability with
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 476 2014-03-28 06:17:19 <maaku> relay policy is just that - a policy decision. just like transaction fees it is not something which should be considered "standard", which is what the BIP process is about
 477 2014-03-28 06:18:22 <maaku> although given the importance of Bitcoin Core it is fine to mention off-handedly "oh by the way, at the time this is written Bitcoin Core doesn't relay or mine scripts with more than 3 public keys in a CHECKMULTISIG"
 478 2014-03-28 06:18:41 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 479 2014-03-28 06:18:50 <maaku> but it must be very clear that this is a default policy choice, not a validation or protocol rule
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 485 2014-03-28 06:20:46 * maaku thinks that IsStandard should be renamed MeetsLocalPolicy or something like that
 486 2014-03-28 06:21:30 <topynate> anything to draw attention away from it? (kidding!)
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 499 2014-03-28 06:30:44 <topynate> Luke-Jr, maaku: BIP 11 is explicitly focused on adding a new standard transaction type. you could argue that creating a policy on what should be a standard type is valuable, but the distinction between a standard for relay policies and the actual relay policies is splitting hairs, i feel
 500 2014-03-28 06:31:00 <dcousens> for compressed public keys, is it expected that the resultant address should verify against a message signed by its uncompressed equivalent?
 501 2014-03-28 06:31:25 <Luke-Jr> topynate: standard transactions != relayed transactions (IsStandard)
 502 2014-03-28 06:32:37 <topynate> given that the code path for BIP16 redeeming scripts never goes through IsStandard, I don't disagree with you
 503 2014-03-28 06:33:02 <Luke-Jr> pretty sure they do, actually
 504 2014-03-28 06:33:27 <Luke-Jr> yep
 505 2014-03-28 06:34:01 <Luke-Jr> CTransaction::AreInputsStandard
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 507 2014-03-28 06:34:09 <Luke-Jr> under if (whichType == TX_SCRIPTHASH)
 508 2014-03-28 06:34:39 <topynate> it calls Solver and checks that it doesn't return false
 509 2014-03-28 06:35:11 <topynate> but that doesn't cover the M >=3 or N >= 3 case, which is handled specially in IsStandard
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 513 2014-03-28 06:38:38 <topynate> it's a weird edge case, but i genuinely believed that it was supposed to act as encouragement to use P2SH over bare multisig
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 516 2014-03-28 06:39:08 <dcousens> Luke-Jr: any ideas on whether bitcoind checks (both) the uncompressed/compressed version of an address when verifying a signed message?
 517 2014-03-28 06:39:22 <Luke-Jr> dcousens: not sure.
 518 2014-03-28 06:40:11 <Luke-Jr> topynate: it appears you are right, but again unrelated to the BIP
 519 2014-03-28 06:40:20 <Luke-Jr> topynate: bare multisig will probably be !IsStandard soon
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 521 2014-03-28 06:42:37 <topynate> um. shouldn't there be a BIP for that? seeing as it would otherwise put Bitcoin Core out of compliance with an accepted BIP
 522 2014-03-28 06:44:30 eristisk has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 523 2014-03-28 06:44:32 <Luke-Jr> topynate: no, and it wouldn't.
 524 2014-03-28 06:44:40 <Luke-Jr> IsStandard is not BIP material
 525 2014-03-28 06:45:24 blumenkraft is now known as eristisk
 526 2014-03-28 06:45:24 <topynate> i'm not talking about IsStandard, i'm talking about standard transactions :)
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 528 2014-03-28 06:45:44 <Luke-Jr> I was talking about IsStandard, obviously. That's why I said it.
 529 2014-03-28 06:47:41 <topynate> if there's an accepted BIP that proposes a multisig as a standard transaction type - which there is - and if Bitcoin Core doesn't relay those transactions, then how is Bitcoin core not failing to comply with an accepted BIP?
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 531 2014-03-28 06:48:28 <Luke-Jr> topynate: relay policy is not something decided by BIPs
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 533 2014-03-28 06:48:45 <Luke-Jr> the BIP just says what the standard way to make such transactions is
 534 2014-03-28 06:49:03 ericmuyser has joined
 535 2014-03-28 06:49:04 <Luke-Jr> it doesn't say people are obliged to forward them
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 537 2014-03-28 06:50:43 <Luke-Jr> on that note, I wonder if we should just rewrite IsStandard to use boost::regex or something
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 539 2014-03-28 06:51:22 <Luke-Jr> otoh, not sure regex is user-friendly
 540 2014-03-28 06:51:39 <Luke-Jr> the current matching engine might be better, parsed from a string
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 543 2014-03-28 06:53:39 <topynate> luke-jr: i think saying that BIP 11 just proposed a standard way of doing a multisig transaction is stretching it. but i don't want to get into hermeneutics
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 580 2014-03-28 07:29:55 <dcousens> Luke-Jr: do you think it should? Verify at either addresses that is
 581 2014-03-28 07:30:11 <dcousens> (it appears to not)
 582 2014-03-28 07:30:15 <Luke-Jr> dcousens: huh?
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 585 2014-03-28 07:31:35 <dcousens> Luke-Jr: sorry, do you think a signed message should verify against the compressed and uncompressed address against which it is being checked?
 586 2014-03-28 07:31:58 <dcousens> (assume they provide the compressed address, but the message is verified against the uncompressed equivalent)
 587 2014-03-28 07:32:04 <dcousens> message is signed*
 588 2014-03-28 07:33:03 <Luke-Jr> dcousens: I suppose it's unavoidable
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 590 2014-03-28 07:34:12 <dcousens> I mean, in the end, the pubkey is carried in the signature itself, you're just checking that that pubkey matches the hashed address, if that hashed address was the hash of the compressed pubkey, then it'll fail, even though its correct
 591 2014-03-28 07:34:22 <dcousens> (I know you know this, just saying for others)
 592 2014-03-28 07:34:51 <Luke-Jr> oh? I didn't know it failed
 593 2014-03-28 07:35:15 <dcousens> I've only read the code, but I'll need to test it before I assert that
 594 2014-03-28 07:35:51 <dcousens> But my impression is (the code is simple) it will fail
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 635 2014-03-28 08:13:48 <ferdiando> The limit that only 520 bytes may be pushed to the stack...Is that an inherent limit? Or part of the reference implementation that can be bypassed?
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 638 2014-03-28 08:18:40 <ferdiando> meaning if some miner agreed to include a transaction that had a script >520 byes...would that block be valid?
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 640 2014-03-28 08:19:43 <topynate> it's a protocol limit
 641 2014-03-28 08:19:56 <topynate> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/acfe60677c9bb4e75cf2e139b2dee4b642ee6a0c/src/main.cpp#L3963
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 647 2014-03-28 08:24:19 <ferdiando> I get that the default behavior is not to relay this transaction. But, what happens if I mine a block that contains a script >520 bytes? Will the reference implementation recognize this block as valid?
 648 2014-03-28 08:25:38 <Luke-Jr> no
 649 2014-03-28 08:25:47 <ferdiando> thanks
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 710 2014-03-28 09:14:28 <serphacker> hi guys, I send btc to an address which is not in my wallet via txY. I want to know if txY has been spent. Can I achieve that via RPC and bitcoind ? If i do gettransaction txY I only know conf number but I don't know if txY was spent in another transaction.
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 715 2014-03-28 09:19:56 <Luke-Jr> serphacker: what you're describing there doesn't sound like something useful outside of forensics..
 716 2014-03-28 09:21:15 <Luke-Jr> serphacker: what is your goal?
 717 2014-03-28 09:21:47 <serphacker> Luke-Jr: my goal is to know if the bitcoin sent to one address has been spent
 718 2014-03-28 09:22:25 <serphacker> that's why I want to know if tx was used in another tx
 719 2014-03-28 09:22:34 <wumpus> the address index patch could help you there (or another way of building output-based indexes...)
 720 2014-03-28 09:22:44 <Luke-Jr> serphacker: bitcoins are fungible. that UTXO could have been spent by someone entirely unrelated to the person who receives with the address you sent to.
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 723 2014-03-28 09:23:57 <serphacker> Luke-Jr: I know that
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 726 2014-03-28 09:24:57 <Luke-Jr> serphacker: forensics require indexes bitcoind doesn't maintain; as wumpus said, one of those has a patch, but not sure if that will be of use to you
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 728 2014-03-28 09:25:16 <Luke-Jr> I still have no idea what you're trying to accomplish either :p
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 732 2014-03-28 09:26:22 <serphacker> wumpus: do you have a link to this patch
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 737 2014-03-28 09:29:40 <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3652
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 740 2014-03-28 09:30:45 <serphacker> wumpus: thanks
 741 2014-03-28 09:32:09 <arubi> whoa that's useful..
 742 2014-03-28 09:32:57 <serphacker> indeed wumpus transaction index by address may help me
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 754 2014-03-28 09:39:32 <serphacker> watch only wallet may be a solution too, so I don't have to index all addresses
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 772 2014-03-28 09:50:37 <wumpus> watch-only is the preferred solution (also more likely to get merged as it is not as burdensome as an extra index)
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 779 2014-03-28 09:54:24 <serphacker> wumpus: yes I agree, I'm reading https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3383 and I think i m going to use this solution, so I don't have to rely on a third party (blockchain api) anymore
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 814 2014-03-28 10:26:30 <wumpus> I may pick up the watchonly patch if wangbus doesn't get around to it
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 835 2014-03-28 10:47:59 <serphacker> I can't create two instance of bitcoind using the same "regtest" right ?
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 838 2014-03-28 10:49:36 <wumpus> sure you can, that's what the qa tests do
 839 2014-03-28 10:49:48 <wumpus> just make sure that they have their own RPC and P2P ports
 840 2014-03-28 10:49:55 <wumpus> and datadir
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 842 2014-03-28 10:50:53 <serphacker> wumpus: I connect them together using addnode ?
 843 2014-03-28 10:50:59 <wumpus> yes
 844 2014-03-28 10:51:03 <sipa> using -connect
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 846 2014-03-28 10:52:27 <serphacker> ha right, I misconfigured my second node connecting to wrong listening port
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 898 2014-03-28 11:50:50 <gmaxwell> wumpus: my wallet exhibits that behavior.
 899 2014-03-28 11:51:37 <gmaxwell> I'd mentioned it before the release, but in my case it was only 12 seconds and I hadn't gotten around to looking into it
 900 2014-03-28 11:51:59 <gmaxwell> but I guess it's actually something quadratic and larger wallets are really suffering.
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 907 2014-03-28 12:03:52 <gmaxwell> okay I did some quick sampling and it appears it's spending all it's time in sha256 under CWallet::GetBalance->CWalletTx::GetAvailableCredit wallet.h:625-> CTransaction::GetHash core.cpp:77 -> SerializeHash<CTransaction> hash.h:107 ... -> serialize.h:524 -> SHA256_Update
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 909 2014-03-28 12:04:39 <gmaxwell> (sampling meaning I put it in that state and broke it several times and looked at the backtrace)
 910 2014-03-28 12:04:42 <gmaxwell> weird.
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 916 2014-03-28 12:14:58 <hearn> gmaxwell: do you have lots of mining payouts or other huge sendmany transactions?
 917 2014-03-28 12:15:55 <hearn> gmaxwell: i expect the issue is doing lots and lots of little Update calls instead of serializing the tx to one byte array and then updating with that
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 920 2014-03-28 12:17:08 <gmaxwell> yes and yes. It seems a little surprising that it's really taking that long due to reserealizing and hashing every transaction for each txout. But thats all I can see that would cause it.
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 922 2014-03-28 12:17:40 <shadders> Anyone ever tried to make a huge disk-backed merkle tree implementation?  It's not fun.
 923 2014-03-28 12:18:33 <hearn> gmaxwell: SHA256_Update looks expensive. it’s not just caching up writes internally
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 925 2014-03-28 12:18:47 <hearn> gmaxwell: i think there’s a general optimization to CHashWriter that can be made here, which might make all of bitcoin faster
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 927 2014-03-28 12:20:02 <gmaxwell> hearn: lots is relative, this wallet has 2245 transactions in listtransactions  (some are duplicates because they're varrious forms of send to self)
 928 2014-03-28 12:20:12 <gmaxwell> yea, indeed.
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 930 2014-03-28 12:21:02 <gmaxwell> (or because I was paid twice in a sendmany; and quite a few of them are large transactions)
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 934 2014-03-28 12:22:38 <gmaxwell> hm. well if its not something quadratic I'm still not confident that the slowness I'm seeing is the same slowness people are reporting in the issue (where they are talking about minutes... in my case it's 12 seconds)
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 937 2014-03-28 12:23:29 <hearn> give me a min
 938 2014-03-28 12:23:38 <hearn> let me see if i can make a patch that passes unit tests
 939 2014-03-28 12:24:04 <hearn> i know some people have wallets that consist almost entirely of giant sendmany transactions from mining pool payouts
 940 2014-03-28 12:24:18 <hearn> and it easily ends up with a pathological number of outputs in the wallet. bcj has the same problem
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 944 2014-03-28 12:27:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm worried because that user complained that balances are wrong
 945 2014-03-28 12:28:08 <sipa> gmaxwell: which seems more than a wrong-complexity mistake
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 947 2014-03-28 12:29:30 <sipa> hearn: seems the GetHash() in GetAvailableCredit() should just move out of the loop
 948 2014-03-28 12:30:02 <hearn> indeed! i’ll add that to my patch to send to gmaxwell. but a faster CHashWriter seems worth doing too
 949 2014-03-28 12:30:11 <sipa> hearn: SHA256_Update buffers up data until there's a block of 64 bytes available before applying it to the internal state
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 951 2014-03-28 12:30:24 <sipa> hearn: i doubt that duplicating that logic in CHashWriter will help anything
 952 2014-03-28 12:30:42 <sipa> unless you're talking about something else?
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 954 2014-03-28 12:31:31 <hearn> ah, no, you’re right.
 955 2014-03-28 12:31:39 <sipa> it may make sense to just cache the hash of transactions in CTransaction
 956 2014-03-28 12:31:50 <hearn> yeah. that’s what bcj does
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 959 2014-03-28 12:32:18 <sipa> before the mempool-checking confirmations change, everything was internal pointer references between wallet transactions
 960 2014-03-28 12:32:19 <gmaxwell> yea, though I don't really think I have more than 2 tx outs in a transaction that often.
 961 2014-03-28 12:32:32 <hearn> i looked at the update function but didn’t spot the line that buffers up. openssl can be a bit hard to read
 962 2014-03-28 12:32:35 <sipa> but now there's a constant need to request data by txid from the mempool
 963 2014-03-28 12:32:45 <gavinandresen> good morning y'all.
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 965 2014-03-28 12:33:21 <sipa> still, won't explain the wrong balance or wrong complexity
 966 2014-03-28 12:33:25 <hearn> morning gavin
 967 2014-03-28 12:33:30 <sipa> howdy
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 970 2014-03-28 12:33:57 <hearn> what’s the avg tx size these days? still a few hundred bytes?
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 972 2014-03-28 12:34:33 <gavinandresen> hearn: right around 250 bytes, I believe
 973 2014-03-28 12:36:12 <jgarzik> mornin'
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 977 2014-03-28 12:37:43 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, Wasn't it decided that the delay would be fixed with a pre-cache step at startup?
 978 2014-03-28 12:37:49 <hearn> gmaxwell: yeah in that case the fact that all the time is going into sha256 doesn’t make much sense. openssl speed manages 71mb per second with 64k block size for me at the moment (though i have a compile running too so that may be off). so your wallet would need to hash about 1.2mb of data
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 982 2014-03-28 12:38:38 <hearn> gmaxwell: try moving GetHash out of the loop and see if it makes any difference i guess
 983 2014-03-28 12:39:07 <sipa> i guess we'll need it out of GetAvailableCredit() entirely
 984 2014-03-28 12:40:06 <hearn> lazy caching it would be better, imo. i bet there’s lots of code that calls it expecting it to be fast. and if not now, in future
 985 2014-03-28 12:41:53 <sipa> hearn: implementation detail :)
 986 2014-03-28 12:42:04 <sipa> hearn: i mean, not compute the hash for every invocation of GetAvailableCredit
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1032 2014-03-28 13:30:26 <sipa> this is sad: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/24024/installing-ripple-coin-daemon-and-ripple-coin-qt-in-ubuntu-gives-error
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1034 2014-03-28 13:30:54 <sipa> people are so accustomed to altcoins that they even expect the source code to be pretty much identical in build steps
1035 2014-03-28 13:31:18 smash has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1036 2014-03-28 13:31:23 <sipa> even though what he's trying to do wouldn't even work for bitcoin anymore...
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1056 2014-03-28 13:48:35 <jgarzik> sipa, heh
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1058 2014-03-28 13:51:13 <jgarzik> sipa, <random> RE altcoin shite in our codebase, I've actually been changing my mind a bit on that subject.  So many of these are stuck on crappy codebases that I wonder if it wouldn't be better for humanity if we made a few simple things like PoW a bit more compile-time-modular </random>
1059 2014-03-28 13:51:31 espringe has joined
1060 2014-03-28 13:51:42 <jgarzik> not actual support mind you, just some friendly modularity that makes the code easier to change
1061 2014-03-28 13:51:56 <jgarzik> like it or not, we are the defacto codebase for the new "chain-based database technology"
1062 2014-03-28 13:51:56 <sipa> jgarzik: i'm in favor of all code modularity
1063 2014-03-28 13:52:10 <sipa> jgarzik: independent from the fact that it would help altcoins
1064 2014-03-28 13:52:32 <gmaxwell> yea, I think a lot of the altcoin help can just be good modularity.
1065 2014-03-28 13:52:33 <sipa> (in fact, i'd rather not encourage the change-some-constants-only-altcoins, but i think they're a fact of life)
1066 2014-03-28 13:52:55 <jgarzik> +1
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1069 2014-03-28 13:53:08 <sipa> jgarzik: see jtimon's PR recently about moving the PoW code to a different file for example
1070 2014-03-28 13:53:18 <jgarzik> yep
1071 2014-03-28 13:53:22 <gmaxwell> plus I have a DOGECOIN tshirt now.
1072 2014-03-28 13:53:44 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, but do you yet have a dogecoin... miner?  :)
1073 2014-03-28 13:53:59 <Apocalyptic> gmaxwell, are you serious ?
1074 2014-03-28 13:54:00 <jgarzik> Yeah, there was a great pic of gavinandresen in between two dogecoin shirts
1075 2014-03-28 13:54:31 <sipa> i have an ethereum t-shirt
1076 2014-03-28 13:55:17 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I do, indeed have a dogecoin asic, but I've not actually mined any coins with it.
1077 2014-03-28 13:56:26 <hearn> the problem with alts is they all tend to change slightly different things, often in unpredictable ways
1078 2014-03-28 13:56:27 <jgarzik> I'm amused at some of the new coins doing algorithm chaining, trying to make h/w life harder ;p    e.g. sha256-scrypt-whirlpool-rot13 rather than just sha256-sha256
1079 2014-03-28 13:56:43 <hearn> i looked at modularising bcj more for alt coins several times. but each one comes up with a unique way to break things
1080 2014-03-28 13:56:49 <hearn> so in the end i figured they should just rebase
1081 2014-03-28 13:56:52 <gmaxwell> hearn: yea, there is a difference between making good modularity changes and going out of our way to support crazy things. I think we should do the former.
1082 2014-03-28 13:57:23 <sipa> hearn: at the san jose conference i answered a question about that, saying that in fact it's the more interesting alts that are hard to support
1083 2014-03-28 13:57:31 <sipa> hearn: those who are easy to support aren't worth it
1084 2014-03-28 13:57:34 <hearn> right
1085 2014-03-28 13:57:34 <jgarzik> sipa, +1
1086 2014-03-28 13:57:46 <stonecoldpat> rot13, best algorithm ever.
1087 2014-03-28 13:57:52 <sipa> for example, freicoin would complicate things very seriously
1088 2014-03-28 13:58:02 <gmaxwell> The altcoin panel in the princeton bitcoin conference thing was fun. Hopefully they'll put videos up.
1089 2014-03-28 13:58:02 <hearn> like dogecoin changed to a 60 second block interval, but also did some weird fee changes, and changed the difficulty algorithm to use “DigiShield”, and changed the inflation formula. some of those, several times
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1091 2014-03-28 13:59:11 <gmaxwell> There were some tweets about it: https://twitter.com/search?q=%23princetonbtc&src=typd&f=realtime
1092 2014-03-28 14:01:35 <stonecoldpat> "gmaxwell tells academics how to be taken more seriously by the Bitcoin community. Most useful thing I've heard all day #PrincetonBTC" love that quote
1093 2014-03-28 14:02:22 <hearn> lol
1094 2014-03-28 14:03:08 <gavinandresen> yes, very nice job on that panel Greg
1095 2014-03-28 14:03:24 <gmaxwell> I was, I think, as typical, a bit harsher than I intended. It didn't help that I carefully avoided naming names and then Alan went and did so. Doh. :)
1096 2014-03-28 14:03:40 <hearn> what did you say?
1097 2014-03-28 14:03:59 <stonecoldpat> i do want to see the recording now
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1099 2014-03-28 14:04:03 <gmaxwell> I basically listed some "things that surprise me" where I think people have stepped on rakes.
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1101 2014-03-28 14:04:22 <gavinandresen> … and something about academics assuming spherically perfect bitcoin cows, I think...
1102 2014-03-28 14:04:35 <Burrito> Anyone know how to solve this error if the end user gets it while running a pre-compiled binary? Having that problem in #bitcoin right now, and I'm pretty clueless about it. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3803
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1104 2014-03-28 14:04:39 <Burrito> Static linking and stuff.
1105 2014-03-28 14:04:40 <gmaxwell> But I mostly tried to avoid pointing to particular papers, since I mostly think the mistakes are differences in norms and short term review failures more than any grave personal failing.
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1108 2014-03-28 14:05:22 <gmaxwell> among other points, I pointed out that some papers with valuable data are dismissed by 'industry'/community because they use simplifying assumptions which are too easily dismissed.... and don't even point out that they are simplifying assumptions.
1109 2014-03-28 14:06:46 <adam3us> gmaxwell: like say ignoring network latency in ghost analysis
1110 2014-03-28 14:07:17 <adam3us> gmaxwell: i particularly enjoyed that one. and started coding a simulator which incorporated latency.
1111 2014-03-28 14:07:24 <stonecoldpat> gmaxwell: or defining a protocol that ignores transaction fee's?
1112 2014-03-28 14:07:28 <gmaxwell> Yes. It's a common failure mode. And sometimes the simplification is fine, but to get the community to take you seriously you need to explain why. If not in the paper, then externally.
1113 2014-03-28 14:07:31 <maaku> serphacker: there is a json-rpc command to check if a transaction output is still present
1114 2014-03-28 14:07:36 <adam3us> gmaxwell: sorry selfish mining. not ghost
1115 2014-03-28 14:07:43 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, ...or completely fail to get someone bitcoin-knowledgeable to review their paper!
1116 2014-03-28 14:07:48 <gmaxwell> yea, I pointed out that bitcoin simulations are always limited because of the economic and system interplay.
1117 2014-03-28 14:08:14 <gmaxwell> I also pointed out that papers sometimes claim bitcoin will fail of condition X is met... and we meet condition X .. and yet bitcoin is still here.
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1119 2014-03-28 14:08:38 <gmaxwell> Yes, I put out an open invitation to contact the developers with request for reviews of papers for rake removal.
1120 2014-03-28 14:08:38 <adam3us> gmaxwell: well it could break the conclusion even. i think for non cloud minng, a simple fix is for the winning miner to broadcast himself. then the problem goes away
1121 2014-03-28 14:08:48 <stonecoldpat> jgarzik: +1
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1123 2014-03-28 14:09:22 <jgarzik> the web scraping by Ron/Shamir was a real facepalm
1124 2014-03-28 14:09:28 <gmaxwell> (which means I may be dispatching some papers to folks have time, to give a review)
1125 2014-03-28 14:09:35 * hearn is happy to do paper review
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1128 2014-03-28 14:10:11 <gmaxwell> I think another side effect may be that we'll see more academics in here and in #bitcoin-wizards, but we'll see.
1129 2014-03-28 14:10:30 <stonecoldpat> the day i ever finish mine (never@thisrate), i'll certainlly be askin for a review from people here
1130 2014-03-28 14:10:43 <adam3us> gmaxwell: well i hope their skin is thick enuf to take a bit of constructive critciism.  they certainly doled it out (many of the papers ultra dismissive tone about "bitcoin") - not like academics succeeded to deploy crypto ecash
1131 2014-03-28 14:10:45 <jgarzik> We need to make extra effort to greet academics gently
1132 2014-03-28 14:10:49 <jgarzik> rather than with both barrels
1133 2014-03-28 14:10:58 <jgarzik> especially on bitcoin-development
1134 2014-03-28 14:11:40 <gmaxwell> adam3us: I think most people did.
1135 2014-03-28 14:11:42 <adam3us> jgarzik: probably. but it mildly irritates me that they are dismissive to the point of rudeness in formlly written papers; and yet then hurt if someone says "duh" about their incorrect assumptions
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1137 2014-03-28 14:12:07 <maraoz_> is there a function that does the opposite of ParseHex (from util.cpp)?
1138 2014-03-28 14:12:14 <gmaxwell> meh, we want good results. We should try to put ego aside even if its not fair. :)
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1140 2014-03-28 14:12:45 <Emcy> gmaxwell did you see the paper about fee supported mining
1141 2014-03-28 14:12:48 <jgarzik> the history of bitcoin is littered with the corpses of dead papers.
1142 2014-03-28 14:12:55 <Emcy> the one that said its not gonna work
1143 2014-03-28 14:13:36 <adam3us> gmaxwell: ha ha. maybe we should write a paper with a preface in the same tone towards their "research" survey of how academic bitcoin analysis is lacking. tit for tat.
1144 2014-03-28 14:13:36 <hearn> well we discussed that years ago didn’t we
1145 2014-03-28 14:13:43 <hearn> that’s where i started proposing network assurance contracts
1146 2014-03-28 14:13:51 <stonecoldpat> Emcy: that was a very doom and gloom paper if i remember right, but it wasn't written by economists from memory
1147 2014-03-28 14:14:26 <Emcy> yeah the tone was pretty negative
1148 2014-03-28 14:14:32 * hearn -> lunch
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1150 2014-03-28 14:14:35 <Emcy> note is about as far an my analytical powers go
1151 2014-03-28 14:14:41 <Emcy> tone*
1152 2014-03-28 14:16:02 <arubi> this makes bitcoin-cli output pretty on terminal :
1153 2014-03-28 14:16:03 <arubi> ./bitcoin-cli createrawtransaction 2>&1 | sed -e 's/\\n/\n/g' -e 's/\\//g' 1>&2
1154 2014-03-28 14:16:04 <adam3us> petertodd: says on twitter that most of the blockchain utxo addresss are data storage/timestamping, not financial tx is that right?
1155 2014-03-28 14:16:25 <sipa> that would very much surprise me
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1158 2014-03-28 14:17:13 <Emcy> adam3us that would be mnassively annoying if its true
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1160 2014-03-28 14:18:01 <adam3us> Devon Read ‏@BlocktechCEO  @pmarca @balajis "blockchain has 1.34m addresses with a balance of BTC0.001 or more.& 29m addresses with a balance of less than that."
1161 2014-03-28 14:18:13 Aido_ is now known as Aido
1162 2014-03-28 14:18:27 <adam3us> and petertodd reply: Peter Todd ‏@petertoddbtc @BlocktechCEO @jonmatonis @pmarca @balajis misleading; supermajority of that is data storage/timestamping, not financial transactions.
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1165 2014-03-28 14:20:02 <maaku> gmaxwell: I wish I was at the princeton conference instead of coinsummit :(
1166 2014-03-28 14:20:41 <gmaxwell> Yea, I understand it was a very different expirence.
1167 2014-03-28 14:21:22 <adam3us> the highight was a 10min conversation with shesek outside
1168 2014-03-28 14:21:38 <maaku> sipa: this patch from freicoin is a bitch to maintain :\ https://github.com/freicoin/freicoin/commit/9ce2d22a8021a6e1784e692ea157b848a733d2db
1169 2014-03-28 14:22:01 <adam3us> gmaxwell: (for the wizard level attenders:)
1170 2014-03-28 14:22:12 <BCB> gmaxwell nice to finally meet you at the conference yesterday
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1172 2014-03-28 14:22:32 <maaku> but a lot of stuff would make maintaining code alignment very easy, e.g. stuff as simple as putting the text "Bitcoin" in ChainParameters
1173 2014-03-28 14:22:40 <jgarzik> maaku, fixing that probably implies a "value" abstract type
1174 2014-03-28 14:22:49 <jgarzik> rather than directly using mpq etc.
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1176 2014-03-28 14:24:56 <gmaxwell> 07:10 < arubi> If you're having a hard time reading bitcoin-cli's output in terminal, you can use this pipe :
1177 2014-03-28 14:25:00 <gmaxwell> 07:10 < arubi> ./bitcoin-cli createrawtransaction 2>&1 | sed -e 's/\\n/\n/g' -e 's/\\//g' 1>&2
1178 2014-03-28 14:25:06 <gmaxwell> actually you can also do ./bitcoin-cli help createrawtransaction
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1180 2014-03-28 14:26:36 <maaku> maraoz_: HexStr?
1181 2014-03-28 14:26:38 <arubi> hehe :) I guess you can gmaxwell .
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1183 2014-03-28 14:26:58 <arubi> never thought of trying that
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1186 2014-03-28 14:27:33 <maraoz_> maaku: thanks. I found GetHex too (for uint256)
1187 2014-03-28 14:28:05 <jgarzik> maraoz_, yes, most types provide something like GetHex()
1188 2014-03-28 14:28:09 <jgarzik> value.GetHex()
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1190 2014-03-28 14:29:01 <maraoz_> Thanks!
1191 2014-03-28 14:29:38 <maaku> jgarzik: that's a good idea
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1193 2014-03-28 14:30:43 <jgarzik> maaku, yep.  if your codebase uses a MoneyValue type, that uses GMP under the hood, it is trivial to integrate if bitcoin is doing the same.
1194 2014-03-28 14:31:08 <jgarzik> That said, I don't want to overpromise and give the impression we would immediately merge an int64_t -> MoneyValue patch
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1198 2014-03-28 14:32:44 <gmaxwell> weird
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1200 2014-03-28 14:33:33 <gmaxwell> so removing the GetHash() from the loop reduces the getbalance time from ~12 seconds to .02 seconds. Seems suspicious to me!
1201 2014-03-28 14:33:44 <sipa> :o
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1203 2014-03-28 14:34:13 <sipa> are you able to reproduce the 12s reliably?
1204 2014-03-28 14:34:59 <gmaxwell> yes. though I'll try again to be sure.
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1215 2014-03-28 14:46:44 <petertodd> adam3us: re: twitter, that was talking about <1mBTC value txouts, not in general
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1217 2014-03-28 14:47:48 <Emcy> how do you know that dust is data storage
1218 2014-03-28 14:49:03 ericmuyser has joined
1219 2014-03-28 14:49:22 <petertodd> Emcy: some of it you can decode (it was that date upload tool) and another big pile of it I know is timestamping (it's timestamps of pgp keys) Having said that, this is from memory, I could be incorrect here on exact numbers.
1220 2014-03-28 14:49:40 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1221 2014-03-28 14:50:11 <Emcy> shit has got to stop
1222 2014-03-28 14:50:31 <petertodd> maaku: speaking of, was talking to gmaxwell, and I think it'd be reasonable to have your utxo commitments, with an expiration scheme that falls back to my txo commitments so you can still spend old txouts
1223 2014-03-28 14:51:51 <petertodd> Emcy: that's why utxo commitments w/o expiration and a txo commitment fallback worries me
1224 2014-03-28 14:53:10 <maraoz_> what's the best way to print a CScript to console (as hex)? I saw the CTransactionSignatureSerializer which serializes CScripts, but I don't get how to use it
1225 2014-03-28 14:53:15 <petertodd> maaku: in fact, you could probably implement both with the same tree - mark the txo as spent for the txo commitment in the first time the txo appears in the blockchain. (which can be compactly proven with a binary search, where the midpoint is a block#)
1226 2014-03-28 14:53:20 <petertodd> anyway, bbl
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1234 2014-03-28 14:57:31 <maaku> petertodd: maybe. i mean yes it would work as stated, but I'd need to consider every proposed application and see if any of them break
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1236 2014-03-28 14:57:59 <maaku> maraoz_: I don't think that does what you want
1237 2014-03-28 14:58:07 <maaku> HexStr(script) would
1238 2014-03-28 14:58:52 <maraoz_> maaku: thanks again! :)
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1248 2014-03-28 15:06:05 <Ghaleon> so bitcoind passes all rpc calls to bitcoin-cli ?
1249 2014-03-28 15:06:10 orperelman has joined
1250 2014-03-28 15:06:20 <maaku> Ghaleon: other way around
1251 2014-03-28 15:06:33 <Ghaleon> so bitcoin-cli is what we should call via terminal?
1252 2014-03-28 15:06:48 <Ghaleon> D is just the core processor with no rpc interface?
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1256 2014-03-28 15:07:26 <sipa> Ghaleon: originally, there was just bitcoind, which can either act as a full node with RPC server capabilityies
1257 2014-03-28 15:07:30 <sipa> Ghaleon: or as an RPC client
1258 2014-03-28 15:07:59 <sipa> Ghaleon: as this is confusing and bloating, the RPC client functionality is being moved to a separate binary, bitcoin-cli which does not have node/rpcserver functions
1259 2014-03-28 15:08:15 <sipa> Ghaleon: however, for backward compatibility, bitcoind can still function as a client as well
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1261 2014-03-28 15:08:57 <Ghaleon> sipa, understood
1262 2014-03-28 15:09:15 <Ghaleon> got 0.9.0 running awsome thanks to serjawerks
1263 2014-03-28 15:09:22 <Ghaleon> securing the box well
1264 2014-03-28 15:10:40 <hearn> sigh. these counterparty guys ....
1265 2014-03-28 15:11:38 omniden has joined
1266 2014-03-28 15:11:41 <Ghaleon> now i am just wondering… if a wallet platform can indeed be built using 0.9.0…. the only issue is the change addressess…. there was a majo bug in blockchain.info where if u sent out the change would come back to a random address in your “wallet” this would trigger a callback. if you are using blockchain.info to host peoples wallets it would cause random users to get free btc. because the callback would fire
1267 2014-03-28 15:11:42 <Ghaleon> and the random user would get btc…… can thisnbe avoided  now with 0.9.0 ?
1268 2014-03-28 15:12:32 <sipa> i don't understand what b.i has to do with it
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1270 2014-03-28 15:12:47 <Ghaleon> as in building a better system than there system
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1272 2014-03-28 15:13:02 <maaku> hearn: what this time?
1273 2014-03-28 15:13:23 <Ghaleon> one which would not magically send the change to a random address in a “merchant users” wallet… which they could be asigning to different people…” thus giving away free money
1274 2014-03-28 15:13:57 <sipa> oh, you mena b.i was reusing existing address for change?
1275 2014-03-28 15:14:05 <maaku> Ghaleon: that's not how change addresses work in bitcoind
1276 2014-03-28 15:14:20 <sipa> that's bad practice, and bitcoind never did that
1277 2014-03-28 15:14:29 <sipa> some wallets do, because of easier backups
1278 2014-03-28 15:15:14 <Ghaleon> sipa, yes. blockchain.info would reuse a random address in your wallet and send the change back
1279 2014-03-28 15:15:43 <sipa> ok, bitcoind doesn't do that
1280 2014-03-28 15:15:45 <sipa> (and never did)
1281 2014-03-28 15:15:46 <Ghaleon> is that just their implemtnation ? or a bug in bitcoind ? does bitcoind ALWAYS make a new address for change?
1282 2014-03-28 15:15:57 <sipa> yes, it always makes a new address for change
1283 2014-03-28 15:15:59 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1284 2014-03-28 15:16:01 <sipa> as addresses shouldn't be reused
1285 2014-03-28 15:16:11 <Ghaleon> ok, that is great, makes sense.
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1288 2014-03-28 15:17:56 <hearn> maaku: one of their developers (lead dev?) is arguing with me in a private message thread
1289 2014-03-28 15:17:59 <hearn> about the OP_RETURN thing
1290 2014-03-28 15:18:16 <hearn> his ability to rationalise abuse and deliberately misunderstand things is epic
1291 2014-03-28 15:18:28 <Ghaleon> ok… i see how a service like .info could be built now. they built an entire copy of the blockchain in mysql and use it for their block explorer AND to store their user wallet addresses connections
1292 2014-03-28 15:18:54 benrcole1 has joined
1293 2014-03-28 15:19:02 <hearn> he’s even claiming counterparty is required for smart property, despite the fact that I explained how to do it with regular bitcoin transactions years ago
1294 2014-03-28 15:19:23 <arubi> hearn, do you have a link to that explanation?
1295 2014-03-28 15:19:29 <arubi> I'm interested
1296 2014-03-28 15:19:30 <hearn> there was none
1297 2014-03-28 15:19:33 <hearn> oh i see
1298 2014-03-28 15:19:36 <hearn> http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Smart_Property
1299 2014-03-28 15:19:45 <arubi> thank you
1300 2014-03-28 15:19:56 <ebfull> if counterparty starts using multisigs to store data, will that be curtailed?
1301 2014-03-28 15:20:12 <maaku> hearn: I met with one of their marketing guys at coinsummit
1302 2014-03-28 15:20:38 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1303 2014-03-28 15:20:40 <maaku> and tried to explain how this can all be done in a trustless way on side chains
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1305 2014-03-28 15:21:15 <sipa> maaku: do not try to reason with marketing people :)
1306 2014-03-28 15:21:20 <austinhill> The complaints about OP_Return being restricted I've heard all show a complete lack of understanding of the blockchain ecosystem and a way for them to punt their development to the bitcoin core devs cause they aren't willing to invest in understanding how to do it right
1307 2014-03-28 15:22:00 <Ghaleon> seems like they want to overload the blockchain out of laziness… at least to an outsider
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1309 2014-03-28 15:22:12 <Ghaleon> bad enoufh with all the gambling sites and pity lil transactions bloating it
1310 2014-03-28 15:22:19 <austinhill> sipa: +1 marketing people have no reason or ryhme
1311 2014-03-28 15:22:36 <hearn> austinhill: the explanation this PhantomPhreak guy gave me boils down to “our implementation is simpler this way"
1312 2014-03-28 15:22:42 <hearn> so yes, out of lazyness
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1314 2014-03-28 15:23:19 <sipa> how about this argument: the more the blockchain is used for non-bitcoin purposes, the less inclined people will be to a block size limit increase ("so... 70% of this data is just to store some other system's data? no, i prefer not to allow them to spam my disk faster")
1315 2014-03-28 15:23:48 <hearn> he keeps talking about how they’re paying fees so it doesn’t matter. i can’t tell if they are being deliberately obtuse or if their understanding really is that poor
1316 2014-03-28 15:24:05 <austinhill> yup, we've tried to show how investing in 2way peg & side chains would be the proper way, but all say "that's sounds too hard" : my response, well, it's not suppose to be easy.  None of this is, protecting the ecosystem while allowing innovation in side chains is hard because it should be - the risk to the blockchain & bitcoin of making mistakes is too important to start screwing around everytime someone wants a change
1317 2014-03-28 15:24:10 <sipa> if fees went to all validation nodes, that would be a correct argument
1318 2014-03-28 15:24:11 <hearn> i think it’s what i concluded before: they wrote code and don’t want to rewrite anything. so they prefer to engage in “marketing” and try to rationalise their design to themselves
1319 2014-03-28 15:24:16 <hearn> it boils down to a lack of programming skill or time or both
1320 2014-03-28 15:24:46 <Ghaleon> hearn keep in mind alot of these folks are “not like us” they really don’t care about the system as a whole. it is a kind of pathology one sees in the business world . now espcially
1321 2014-03-28 15:25:03 <austinhill> Their public letter was insulting to anyone working on core dev & code.  "I can't innovate / lazy so I'll publicly complain against volunteers who bust their ass to build my infrastructure"
1322 2014-03-28 15:25:08 <Ghaleon> this stuff isn’t that complx if someone jsut tries to understand
1323 2014-03-28 15:25:22 <Ghaleon> anyway, what do I know
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1325 2014-03-28 15:25:54 <maaku> sipa hearn : I tried to counter that notion here http://letstalkbitcoin.com/the-greatest-threat/#comment-1306438632
1326 2014-03-28 15:26:16 <austinhill> maaku: Adam3us pointed that link to me, thought you did a great job responding
1327 2014-03-28 15:27:02 <austinhill> Adam Levine @ let's talk bitcoin wants to interview Adam&I to discuss this and other things when he heard us presenting an opposing view to expanding to Op_Return to 80
1328 2014-03-28 15:28:09 <hearn> this notion that counterparty has value is partly the problem
1329 2014-03-28 15:28:22 <hearn> i’ve yet to figure out what value it provides. and this “value” is typically used as the justification for their lazy approach
1330 2014-03-28 15:28:32 <hearn> what _is_ the point of their system, actually?
1331 2014-03-28 15:28:35 <maaku> hearn: issued assets and smart property contracts have value
1332 2014-03-28 15:28:46 <maaku> there are just better, less damaging ways to do it
1333 2014-03-28 15:28:51 <hearn> smart property does not require anything like counterparty
1334 2014-03-28 15:29:03 <maaku> [08:27:11] <maaku> there are just better, less damaging ways to do it
1335 2014-03-28 15:29:06 <hearn> asset issuance on the block chain makes me feel stupid. i can’t see any value in that either, yet, lots of people seem to be excited about it
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1340 2014-03-28 15:31:24 <pigeons> is OP_RETURN less damaging than if they put it in a multisig P2SH that was spendable?
1341 2014-03-28 15:31:29 rdymac has joined
1342 2014-03-28 15:31:36 <hearn> it’s indeed less damaging. but it doesn’t matter exactly how they do that
1343 2014-03-28 15:31:52 <hearn> my point is i don’t understand the value of their protocol. and i’ve looked ....
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1345 2014-03-28 15:32:08 <jtimon> hearn asset management in the chain is what smart property/colored coins does, no?
1346 2014-03-28 15:32:20 <sipa> the value of the protocol is whatever people believe it will be worth in the future
1347 2014-03-28 15:32:41 <hearn> smart property has value because there’s no trusted third party
1348 2014-03-28 15:32:47 <sipa> if the majority of the people invested in it don't see how that is realized technically, the technicalities actually doesn't have value :)
1349 2014-03-28 15:32:50 <hearn> unless you consider the property itself to be the TTP
1350 2014-03-28 15:32:51 <sipa> *don't matter
1351 2014-03-28 15:32:55 <hearn> coloured coins also don’t seem to have any value to me
1352 2014-03-28 15:32:59 <pigeons> well, i'm stuck at what the data gives you vs a hash of the data that can be distributed across different retreival and storage systems, petertodd said something about needing "proof of publication" so i need to understand if that term has more specific meanings than im thinking
1353 2014-03-28 15:33:07 <Apocalyptic> <hearn> coloured coins also don’t seem to have any value to me // it indeed hasn't
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1356 2014-03-28 15:33:20 <maaku> hearn: way, way overloaded use of the word "trusted". most issued assets have a "trusted" redeemer and that is fine
1357 2014-03-28 15:33:27 <Apocalyptic> i'm glad you acknowledge that hearn
1358 2014-03-28 15:33:36 <maaku> if I am buying a bond, I am "trusting" that the bond issuer will repay it
1359 2014-03-28 15:33:42 <jtimon> to me smart property and colored coins are basically the same thing with different names
1360 2014-03-28 15:34:15 <sipa> colored coins is an implementation method for smart property
1361 2014-03-28 15:34:17 <sipa> but not the only one
1362 2014-03-28 15:34:25 <adam3us> hearn: i am not sure about counterparty because they burnt the bitcoins, but often the value is "because shares" as a hook for an alt-coin scarcity race, similar to 'because faster" for param-tweaks.  you would have to think xcp was trying to avoid the greed argument by burning the btc going into it
1363 2014-03-28 15:34:30 <sipa> (nor the best one, imho)
1364 2014-03-28 15:34:32 <jtimon> sipa I like that definition
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1366 2014-03-28 15:35:38 <maaku> adam3us: that was the point. it was an honest "look, we're ethical: we could have taken these coins but that'd be scummy"
1367 2014-03-28 15:35:47 <jtimon> I think the "color"/asset_id needs to be validated in the chain for multiple reasons, if mainnet doesn't do it, a merged mined chain
1368 2014-03-28 15:36:18 <maaku> unfortunately they didn't have the technical chops/experience to know that there are better approaches to implementing what they want
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1371 2014-03-28 15:37:37 <adam3us> i am not thinking watermarking things on bitcoin is a good idea in general. its inefficient for bitcion. its not spv compatible for the parasitic coin, so it sucks for them too.  their tx taken to the limit can be blocked by is_Standard if they impact bitcoin tx thruput.  they could stego encode. but that way lies madness thats mutual assured destruction
1372 2014-03-28 15:38:08 smash has joined
1373 2014-03-28 15:38:26 <jtimon> adam3us exactly the key is that it also sucks for the use cases they want to solve
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1375 2014-03-28 15:39:00 <sipa> we need blockchain pruning soon, if only just to be able to point people to how their usage is incompatible with it
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1378 2014-03-28 15:39:45 <jtimon> for example, the smart car example could use a commited utxo SPV proof to open itself using freimarket's tokens
1379 2014-03-28 15:40:43 <jtimon> without them, the car is going to need to trace the coin
1380 2014-03-28 15:41:05 <adam3us>  and protocols which broadcast app msgs (bid, ask and other auxilliary things) as fake watermarked btc tx can be blocked because they are broadcast and so a relay or miner can join the broadcast network to understand and reject them.  so its not possible to use stego argument for these bcast msgs
1381 2014-03-28 15:41:56 <adam3us> however the stego retort would be ok implement broadcast via stego encoded encryped n^2 communication.  however that is straightup DoS
1382 2014-03-28 15:41:57 <jtimon> adam3us putting the open orders in the chain is not a good idea in the first place
1383 2014-03-28 15:43:16 <adam3us> so when people say not the best way, do they mean do it on a side-chain, or do they mean if doing it on btc at least make it utxo compactible?  like op_return
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1385 2014-03-28 15:44:58 <CheckDavid> What do you guys think about the MSC protocol?
1386 2014-03-28 15:45:15 <maraoz_> I generally tend to think this way: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/the-greatest-threat/#comment-1307675913
1387 2014-03-28 15:45:44 <CheckDavid> maraoz_: you replying to me?
1388 2014-03-28 15:46:11 <maraoz_> No, just generally commenting on data insertion in the blockchain.
1389 2014-03-28 15:46:14 Subo1977 has joined
1390 2014-03-28 15:46:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: (yea, darn, lost power while in a cab…)  yep, I'm sure of it, tested each way 3 times.. 100% repeatable .. 12 seconds with it in the loop, .2 seconds without it. I'll pull req later but I want to dork around and understand it first.
1391 2014-03-28 15:46:44 <sipa> gmaxwell: oh, 2s , not 0.02s?
1392 2014-03-28 15:46:55 espringe has joined
1393 2014-03-28 15:47:01 <CheckDavid> maraoz_: which is what MSC does right?
1394 2014-03-28 15:47:46 SwampTony has joined
1395 2014-03-28 15:47:49 <gmaxwell> 0.2 seconds.
1396 2014-03-28 15:47:57 <gmaxwell> real    0m0.204s
1397 2014-03-28 15:48:07 <gmaxwell> vs real    0m12.652s
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1399 2014-03-28 15:48:56 <sipa> you must have some huge transaction...
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1401 2014-03-28 15:49:33 <adam3us> maraoz_: i didnt see a method?  just an argument that xcp adds features
1402 2014-03-28 15:49:37 <gmaxwell> You've got me. I don't think I use bitcoin any differently than you do— though I have consistent p2pool mining in this wallet.
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1408 2014-03-28 15:50:28 <gmaxwell> most recent p2p coinbase was 15k.
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1410 2014-03-28 15:51:12 <adam3us> actually why is using 1 of 2 sigs not utxo compactable? or is it just that op_return is smaller encoding
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1412 2014-03-28 15:51:50 <gmaxwell> it compactable only if they actually redeem it.
1413 2014-03-28 15:52:04 <gmaxwell> which they may do for a while then abandon
1414 2014-03-28 15:52:14 <gmaxwell> and op_return is a smaller encoding in the meantime.
1415 2014-03-28 15:53:51 <maaku> adam3us: if and until it is spent, it is taking up space
1416 2014-03-28 15:53:54 <adam3us> gmaxwell: and they maybe inclined to abandon because most of the uses are tests.  and the btc value intentionally nominal.
1417 2014-03-28 15:55:09 <gmaxwell> yep.
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1419 2014-03-28 15:55:43 <gmaxwell> part of the dust limit thing is to at least keep the values non-nominal enough that it isn't a big loss to recover it, but thats a long way from promising a high recovery rate.
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1421 2014-03-28 15:55:48 <adam3us> gmaxwell: you know even if the min tx was high (big anti-dust) i think share traders could swap large tx and have the 1btc just for deposit to pass the anti-dust rule.
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1425 2014-03-28 15:57:04 <adam3us> gmaxwell: i mean they might watermark atomically swapped 1BTC coins eg.  so 1BTC+watermark share swapped for 1BTC+100mBTC
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1427 2014-03-28 15:59:40 <adam3us> also i think re someone q above about proof of publication petertodd uses teh argument that if you publish a hash fo data and the data is necessary for validation by some external to bitcoin logic involving value, then if they lose teh data or someone has an incentive to withhold or deny service to it
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1429 2014-03-28 16:00:38 <sipa> if you have hash-committed data that is necessary for validation, it actually is part of the chain
1430 2014-03-28 16:00:44 <adam3us> then you have a weaker assurance.  extra data that could be fetched by peers could be used in bitcoin also.  maybe that will come to pass if we have headers first and avoid resending the block data (which already went as tx)
1431 2014-03-28 16:00:50 <sipa> and using things like DHTs to store it is not actually useful
1432 2014-03-28 16:01:06 <sipa> (even if you assume 100% reliability...)
1433 2014-03-28 16:01:06 <pigeons> yes but i think witholding or denying service to data is not practical, freenet, torrents, i2p, hidden tor sites, etc
1434 2014-03-28 16:01:18 <adam3us> sipa: well i mean eg that is useful only to say mastercoin
1435 2014-03-28 16:01:32 <pigeons> i cant see it being actually possible to prevent access to the underlying data
1436 2014-03-28 16:02:02 <adam3us> pigeons: its a subtle difference: youcoud jam the network
1437 2014-03-28 16:02:26 <pigeons> carrier pigeons
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1440 2014-03-28 16:03:56 <adam3us> sipa: so the short term example headers first, then the other (or is it part?) optimization of not resending the bulk data.  i think its just an altnernate transport, you still arrive at the same block for local persistent storage
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1446 2014-03-28 16:06:02 <hearn> maaku: why is it overloaded/
1447 2014-03-28 16:06:29 <hearn> maaku: doing coloured coins only makes sense if you trust the TTP to hold large quantities of valuable assets and not go fractional, not disappear, etc but somehow don’t trust them to run a database server
1448 2014-03-28 16:06:35 <hearn> i can’t think of any situations in which that makes sense
1449 2014-03-28 16:07:06 <maaku> hearn: there are perfectly valid reasons to be fractional. ever taken out a loan?
1450 2014-03-28 16:08:03 <hearn> i didn’t say there were no reasons to be fractional. re-read what i wrote: i said coloured coins only makes sense if you assume a 1:1 backing of assets on a  block chain, which doesn’t make sense.
1451 2014-03-28 16:08:18 <maaku> hearn: that is incorrect
1452 2014-03-28 16:08:19 <hearn> it’s a system that only makes sense if you trust the third party yet simultaneously don't
1453 2014-03-28 16:08:34 <maaku> colored coins makes perfect sense without 1:1 backing
1454 2014-03-28 16:08:48 <hearn> well if you’re going to allow coloured coins to exist that don’t have any backing assets, you again may as well just use a regular database. because what you’ve got there is a bank
1455 2014-03-28 16:08:59 <hearn> hmm. about to run out of battery :/
1456 2014-03-28 16:09:03 <maaku> e.g. I issue an IOU exchanged for bitcoin as a mechanism for getting a loan
1457 2014-03-28 16:09:35 <Eagle[TM]> i thought the thing about coloured coins was: open database. you can track insider selling for example :)
1458 2014-03-28 16:09:39 <hearn> sure. so you keep track of the IOUs you issued, and give the user a signed document saying “I owe you"
1459 2014-03-28 16:09:40 <maaku> then that IOU trades at some discount depending on the liklihood of me repaying that loan
1460 2014-03-28 16:09:42 hearn has quit (Client Quit)
1461 2014-03-28 16:10:26 <maaku> Eagle[TM]: that's why it's good to have this stuff on chain
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1464 2014-03-28 16:11:00 <maaku> although not necessarily on bitcoin, I think it's fine to require it on a merged mined chain that better supports it
1465 2014-03-28 16:11:09 <CheckDavid> Who is developing colored coin?
1466 2014-03-28 16:11:13 <Eagle[TM]> maaku: I agree with you. Banks run "databases" for currency too. We'd rather have the blockchain in the public though
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1470 2014-03-28 16:12:31 <hearn> found power socket. hmm seems the logging on the channel is lagged though
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1472 2014-03-28 16:12:52 <hearn> sorry maaku. last thing i saw was “then that IOU trades at some discount depending on the liklihood of me repaying that loan"
1473 2014-03-28 16:14:10 <hearn> i mean i used to think this. hence my distributed bond market proposals and so on
1474 2014-03-28 16:15:08 <hearn> and i still do to some extent, but now we’ve gone quite far from the original coloured coins stuff which was like, “issue GoldCoins that are backed by gold bars” or barrels of oil or whatever
1475 2014-03-28 16:15:15 <hearn> personal IOUs are a bit different
1476 2014-03-28 16:15:44 <hearn> and even then it’s not clear to me you really need a block chain with all the downsides that has
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1478 2014-03-28 16:16:13 <hearn> the only reason my proposals used it was for the atomic nature of it. but you can just keep your own db and have users submit their txns as proof of payment for moving ownership of the connected asset
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1486 2014-03-28 16:22:10 <Eagle[TM]> hearn: I'd rather trade commodities with coloured coins, counterparty or similar than on an traditional exchange like comex because the latter is intransparent and abused by high frequency trading and so forth. sure you still need an audit whether the stuff is in stock, but same applies to tradidional exchanges
1487 2014-03-28 16:22:32 <hearn> you can have a non-blockchain based transparent exchange
1488 2014-03-28 16:22:44 <imjonathan> hearn: where can I read your proposal? Thanks!
1489 2014-03-28 16:22:44 <hearn> it just needs to publish a log of each transaction with a hash chain in it
1490 2014-03-28 16:22:50 <hearn> imjonathan: which proposal?
1491 2014-03-28 16:23:10 ft__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1492 2014-03-28 16:23:16 <imjonathan> hearn: "distributed bond market proposal"
1493 2014-03-28 16:23:20 <Eagle[TM]> hearn: sounds interesting ;) i guess if that's possible there's less need for a blockchain for trading
1494 2014-03-28 16:23:31 <hearn> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Distributed_markets
1495 2014-03-28 16:23:36 <hearn> note the “financial hashmap” section
1496 2014-03-28 16:23:40 <imjonathan> Thanks!
1497 2014-03-28 16:23:44 <Eagle[TM]> thx
1498 2014-03-28 16:23:47 <hearn> so the idea that you’d need to indirect hashes in the block chain through some off chain system is hardly new
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1500 2014-03-28 16:24:22 <hearn> Eagle[TM]: right. the block chain is a very specialised tool for a very specialised problem. what happens now is that people have a hammer, so they want to hammer everything, including things made of rubber or glass :)
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1505 2014-03-28 16:26:58 <imjonathan> hearn: What do you think about Open Transactions as an off chain market back end?
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1507 2014-03-28 16:27:06 <Eagle[TM]> hearn: I see. I'd say by all means keep it off the bitcoin blockchain, but if people want to use some altchain for this kind of thing, let them go ahead?
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1509 2014-03-28 16:28:01 <hearn> OT implements chaumian cash which unfortunately hits lots of legal complexities. but for small adhoc things or trading your personal debt or whatever chaum tokens might work
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1511 2014-03-28 16:28:19 <hearn> Eagle[TM]: alt chains no problem, or indeed even OP_RETURN. it’s purely the CHECKMULTISIG abuse that’s a problem
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1514 2014-03-28 16:29:33 <Eagle[TM]> hearn: OK i kind of understand why it should be phased out in favour of P2SH
1515 2014-03-28 16:30:01 <hearn> i didn’t say that either :)
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1518 2014-03-28 16:34:17 <maaku> hearn: bearer tokens backed by physical items is only one very limited use case for issued assets
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1520 2014-03-28 16:35:05 <hearn> so to be clear, i’m not arguing issuing assets is a bad idea. but how much value does using the bitcoin block chain for that bring?
1521 2014-03-28 16:35:09 <maaku> there are all sorts of fancy property constructs which don't necessarily need physical goods
1522 2014-03-28 16:35:21 <hearn> sure
1523 2014-03-28 16:35:25 <maaku> corporate stock falls in such a category too
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1525 2014-03-28 16:36:19 <maaku> hearn: to be clear I'm not advocating this should be on the Satoshi block chain either - my own proposals use a side chain
1526 2014-03-28 16:36:37 <maaku> and now that 2-way pegging has been worked out, you can move bitcoin value there and back in a trustless manor as well
1527 2014-03-28 16:36:46 <hearn> ok. pushing the idea further, do you really benefit from a block chain at all? or would any kind of public transaction log be sufficient?
1528 2014-03-28 16:36:52 <sipa> i want to live in a trustless manor
1529 2014-03-28 16:37:26 <maaku> but there is value in having a trustless accountant, which is what bitcoin protocol gives you over some centralized database
1530 2014-03-28 16:38:08 <hearn> is there a case where the issuer of the asset can be trusted to ensure the asset has value (backing it or repaying their debts or whatever), but not run a database?
1531 2014-03-28 16:38:23 <hearn> for instance, would a MySQL with a public replication log be just as good?
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1534 2014-03-28 16:39:45 <maaku> cross property trades require some sort of public/private integration
1535 2014-03-28 16:39:53 <maaku> which is why I don't think open-transactions is the solution
1536 2014-03-28 16:39:58 <Eagle[TM]> it's also beneficial to be able to transfer assets to somone else and prove having done so. the idea of a public block chains kind of means the issuer won't discriminate against such a transfer to which ever party
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1538 2014-03-28 16:40:50 <maaku> but also, it is beneficial to delegate the task of accounting to someone who has the time and resources to maintain an online database with 24/7 availability
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1540 2014-03-28 16:41:19 <Eagle[TM]> it's kind of saying: why not use paypal for assets. well because paypal sucks because it has to play by US laws
1541 2014-03-28 16:41:20 <maaku> this can be done safely without proof of work, but requires auditors and users to pay attention
1542 2014-03-28 16:41:40 <maaku> a public chain lets you move value into a paper wallet and (mostly) forget about it
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1546 2014-03-28 16:46:22 <stonecoldpat> i was reading a paper about mixers, and want to make sure this is right - do you need an ID to buy bitcoins?
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1549 2014-03-28 16:46:38 <stonecoldpat> the author says you need to scan national ID, and send it as proof of your identity but you can buy coins
1550 2014-03-28 16:46:53 <stonecoldpat> i've never bought coins, so i wouldnt know
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1557 2014-03-28 16:50:17 <Eagle[TM]> 292931 may have broken the largest on chain record 895.14 kb
1558 2014-03-28 16:50:29 <Eagle[TM]> *block on chain
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1564 2014-03-28 16:52:10 <maaku> stonecoldpat: #bitcoin, but no - you could buy bitcoin for cash from anyone obviously
1565 2014-03-28 16:53:37 <bdhuser> Why does scriptPubKey include hash of public key, and not key itself?
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1569 2014-03-28 16:54:02 <kjj> smaller, safer
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1571 2014-03-28 16:54:22 <hearn> easier to type, basically
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1573 2014-03-28 16:54:35 <bdhuser> smaller ok, but doesnt it appear in cleartext in the corresponding scriptSig anyway?
1574 2014-03-28 16:54:38 <Genitrust> does anyone here actually have bitcoin-qt running on debian 7.4 ? -.-
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1576 2014-03-28 16:55:06 <bdhuser> I guess it is safer before being spent.. ok
1577 2014-03-28 16:55:17 <bdhuser> thanks!
1578 2014-03-28 16:55:20 <hearn> smaller when written down or on screen
1579 2014-03-28 16:55:30 <hearn> address form was intended only for when one or the other user was offline
1580 2014-03-28 16:55:35 <hearn> that’s why it’s intended to be typable/writable
1581 2014-03-28 16:55:37 <dexX7> <gmaxwell> it compactable only if they actually redeem it. << fyi: http://i.imgur.com/c9mpd8h.png ;)
1582 2014-03-28 16:55:39 <jtimon> hearn it is true that you don't need proof of work in many cases and a private chain is better, but why not make it a markle chain iwth signatures?
1583 2014-03-28 16:55:50 <maaku> bdhuser: you should only be using keys once
1584 2014-03-28 16:55:59 <jtimon> s/markle/merkle
1585 2014-03-28 16:56:36 <hearn> you mean a merkle chain with signatures? yes you can do that. it’s called a post-unforgeable transaction log
1586 2014-03-28 16:56:42 <hearn> certificate transparency does something like that
1587 2014-03-28 16:56:47 <bdhuser> hearn: not sure I understood your very last point about address forms for offline
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1589 2014-03-28 16:57:08 <Genitrust> i'm trying to build bitcoin from source ... and my ./configure gets stuck at "error: Found Berkeley DB other than 4.8, required for portable wallets" ... should i ignore this? =\
1590 2014-03-28 16:57:17 <bdhuser> maaku: yes, but how does that relate to why pubkey is hashed?
1591 2014-03-28 16:57:19 <adam3us> hearn: i think the difference is you are not beholden to the good behavior of the private-chain (aka OT transaction server without blinding) if it can be pegged to a side chain
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1593 2014-03-28 16:57:45 <bdhuser> maaku: your saying its a hash no one will recognize, since you only use the pubkey once?
1594 2014-03-28 16:57:54 <adam3us> hearn: also in finance they have lots of different entities in different roles.  gendal wrote a nice summary on his blog
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1596 2014-03-28 16:58:39 <adam3us> hearn: they have custodians of electronic and paper share certs for the exact reason taht users get their funds back if the exchange goes bankrupt.  with pegging you can have trustless custodian - there is no custodian, you have custody of your own share cert
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1598 2014-03-28 16:59:20 <adam3us> hm this seems like a bit of a wizard discussion more than a dev one? i dont care either way
1599 2014-03-28 16:59:32 <jtimon> hearn I was just saying using the sidechain code replacing proof of work with a special transaction, but do you have any links on the certificate transparency stuff?
1600 2014-03-28 16:59:34 <hearn> i have to go anyway
1601 2014-03-28 16:59:38 <hearn> jtimon: google it :)
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1604 2014-03-28 16:59:49 <jtimon> ok, bye
1605 2014-03-28 16:59:54 <maaku> bdhuser: the connection is that there is only a ~10 min window where the pubkey is known but the output not spent
1606 2014-03-28 17:00:03 <adam3us> CT is a way to detect certificate malfeasance in x509 (or possibly oher scenarios)
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1608 2014-03-28 17:00:17 <bdhuser> maaku: ah ok, thanks
1609 2014-03-28 17:01:48 <maaku> so even in the case of a catastrophic break of ECDSA or secp256k1, we could migrate to a new system as any realistic break would take lots of compute power and more than 10 min to find the private key
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1621 2014-03-28 17:08:08 <stonecoldpat> maaku: thanks
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1626 2014-03-28 17:10:12 <adam3us> (custodianship 2-way etc discussion moved to #bitcoin-wizards)
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1658 2014-03-28 17:37:26 <bdhuser> In scriptSig, signature and public key are just laid out flat, with no OPs to get them on stack (according to wiki), so why do they actually end up on stack?
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1660 2014-03-28 17:40:15 <kazcw> implicit push ops
1661 2014-03-28 17:40:31 <kazcw> they're not usually written but you can't just put bare data in a script
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1663 2014-03-28 17:41:14 <bdhuser> ok, so that means I cant just write any old script I want for scriptSig? it has to be data in that format?
1664 2014-03-28 17:41:44 <bdhuser> seems like you can have an OP_TRUE for example, for a "anyone-can-spend" output?
1665 2014-03-28 17:41:56 <kazcw> that would be a scriptPubKey
1666 2014-03-28 17:42:05 <kazcw> scriptSigs are for inputs, scriptPubKeys are outputs
1667 2014-03-28 17:42:09 <bdhuser> scriptPubKey: (empty)
1668 2014-03-28 17:42:09 <bdhuser>  scriptSig: OP_TRUE
1669 2014-03-28 17:42:22 <bdhuser> thats a pair defining an anyone can spend situation
1670 2014-03-28 17:42:39 <maaku> bdhuser: yes
1671 2014-03-28 17:42:40 <bdhuser> which seems true to me
1672 2014-03-28 17:42:45 <maaku> it is
1673 2014-03-28 17:42:50 <bdhuser> ok
1674 2014-03-28 17:43:33 <maaku> bdhuser: it's just the notation we use. when we push data we don't explicitly write the OP_PUSHDATAn opcode
1675 2014-03-28 17:43:39 <bdhuser> ah ok cool
1676 2014-03-28 17:43:53 <maaku> but in the script, yes, you actually use a pushdata opcode (there are many)
1677 2014-03-28 17:44:02 <bdhuser> excellent, got you!
1678 2014-03-28 17:44:30 <kazcw> although if you put anything in a scriptSig that isn't a pushop, the spend is a non-standard tx
1679 2014-03-28 17:44:38 <topynate> are there any actual uses of non-pushdata in a scriptSig? i don't remember seeing any
1680 2014-03-28 17:45:08 <bdhuser> kazcw: I see, so it wont be accepted by network?
1681 2014-03-28 17:45:54 <kazcw> bdhuser: you can mine it yourself or send it directly to someone who mines non-standard transactions, but otherwise you can't just broadcast it and expect it to be relayed like any other
1682 2014-03-28 17:46:44 <bdhuser> right, I think I came across this, is there some specific list of what will be broadcasted then?
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1684 2014-03-28 17:48:02 <kazcw> it's Solver in script.cpp, or you can probably find it in the wiki or elsewhere if you search for "standard transactions"
1685 2014-03-28 17:49:21 <bdhuser> will have a look, thanks
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1688 2014-03-28 17:50:48 <maaku> topynate: no. there are no uses for non-pushdata in the scriptSig
1689 2014-03-28 17:50:55 <bdhuser> to all of you who bother to answer my many noob questions, really appreciate it, know Im spamming quite a lot, ... will try to pay it forward once I get there
1690 2014-03-28 17:51:01 <maaku> because all that is carried between the scriptSig and the scriptPubKey is the stack
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1693 2014-03-28 17:54:23 <kazcw> "No uses" is quite the sweeping statement. If we added an OP_RECOVERPUBKEY, the current p2pkh transactions could be spent with scriptSig = <sig> OP_DUP OP_RECOVERPUBKEY, saving a lot of bytes.
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1696 2014-03-28 17:55:09 <topynate> i actually just remembered seeing something, but it's probably abusive
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1699 2014-03-28 17:55:34 <topynate> you want to spend a pay-to-pubkey-hash and record some data at the same time
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1701 2014-03-28 17:56:16 <topynate> so instead of <sig> <pubKey> in the scriptSig, you do <arbitrary bytes> DROP <sig> <pubKey>
1702 2014-03-28 17:56:18 <maaku> kazcw: that's a good soft-fork proposal
1703 2014-03-28 17:56:40 <kazcw> maaku: that would be a hard fork. Old clients would see such spends as invalid
1704 2014-03-28 17:56:49 <kazcw> topynate: Why the DROP at all?
1705 2014-03-28 17:56:55 <maaku> topynate: it is abusive, it's also a source of malleability
1706 2014-03-28 17:57:14 <maaku> sipa's bip 62 would eliminate both constructions
1707 2014-03-28 17:57:32 <maaku> but OP_RECOVERPUBKEY is the first real use I've seen for scriptSig logic
1708 2014-03-28 17:58:13 <maaku> actually no, it's not soft-fork
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1713 2014-03-28 18:00:39 <topynate> maaku: interesting, the top of the stack would be true even without DROP. that's the way i saw it, i think there are a couple of transactions like that.
1714 2014-03-28 18:00:41 <maaku> but it'd be a great hard-fork patch to have ready
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1716 2014-03-28 18:02:01 <maaku> topynate: yes just the top of the stack is checked. but at some point we might change that such that a transacdtion is only valid if the stack consists of only [true]
1717 2014-03-28 18:02:44 <maraoz_> Is there a utility to generate the test*.json.h files from test*.json files? (for example script_valid.json.h from script_valid.json?)
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1720 2014-03-28 18:04:27 <maraoz_> Or are those automatically generated when compiling tests?
1721 2014-03-28 18:05:21 <kazcw> they're automatically generated
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1723 2014-03-28 18:10:00 <bdhuser> A PDA with two stacks is Turing complete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pushdown_automaton), and scripting seems to have a main stack and an alt stack? so why isn't the language Turing complete?
1724 2014-03-28 18:10:34 _ImI_ has joined
1725 2014-03-28 18:11:50 <bdhuser> perhaps I shouldn't directly compare the scripting language to a PDA ? is that why
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1729 2014-03-28 18:13:11 <topynate> bdhuser: i think the answer is that the 'head' of the automaton can never move to the alt stack in bitcoin scripting
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1732 2014-03-28 18:14:26 <bdhuser> I think the "head" on a standard PDA just stays on input tape as well, and simulates turing machine by using two stacks as an implicit tape (left and right part of tape is corresponding stack)
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1738 2014-03-28 18:17:31 <topynate> hm,
1739 2014-03-28 18:18:26 <maaku> bedeho: the technical definition "turing completeness" is not what most people mean when they use the term
1740 2014-03-28 18:19:15 <maaku> i would not be surprised if bitcoin script were technically turing complete, although the maximum number of computations emulatable is limited by the linear length of the script
1741 2014-03-28 18:19:50 <bedeho> so I guess, to get bitcoin scripting to compute anything, I preload stacks with tape content, and then put tape processing logic in the actual script itself?
1742 2014-03-28 18:20:21 <maaku> it'd probably be an even less efficient construction
1743 2014-03-28 18:20:40 <maaku> since it's hard to do tape processing logic at all with the opcodes available
1744 2014-03-28 18:20:54 <bedeho> maaku: yes, it would be limited by script length, wich makes me think that it cant possibly be complete, sicne you cant do solve positive cases of halting problem with that, however, PDAs also have finite length input...
1745 2014-03-28 18:21:36 <maaku> well the PC I'm using not turing complete as it can't emulate *arbitrary* turing machines
1746 2014-03-28 18:21:51 <bedeho> fair enough
1747 2014-03-28 18:22:05 <maaku> but it is complete for finite constructions, and maybe so is bitcoin script
1748 2014-03-28 18:22:24 <maaku> although it's pretty academic because I doubt you could emulate more than one or two tape operations before you run out of script
1749 2014-03-28 18:22:34 <bedeho> :D
1750 2014-03-28 18:22:44 <bedeho> indeed
1751 2014-03-28 18:25:55 <kazcw> it's not turing complete, it would need some kind of loop
1752 2014-03-28 18:26:13 jps_ has joined
1753 2014-03-28 18:26:26 <bedeho> my intuition agrees, but why is double stack PDA complete then?
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1758 2014-03-28 18:28:16 <bedeho> I think scripting really is not a PDA, that must be the answer. In PDA, logic is embedded in transition table, while for scripting its actually on input
1759 2014-03-28 18:28:31 <bedeho> input tape...
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1761 2014-03-28 18:30:14 <bedeho> the only similarity is the stacks I think, similarity ends there
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1774 2014-03-28 18:38:21 <maaku> kazcw: you write some script to simulate one step of the turing machine. you then repeat this script over and over until you hit hard limits of the scriptPubKey size
1775 2014-03-28 18:38:43 <kazcw> then you're part of the turing machine
1776 2014-03-28 18:38:51 <kazcw> because you're executing the loops by hand
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1779 2014-03-28 18:39:20 <maaku> no the step is generic
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1781 2014-03-28 18:40:23 <maaku> imagine writing an x86 interpreter, where the inner loop reads and interprets 1 instruction
1782 2014-03-28 18:40:38 <maaku> then you unroll the loop by copy-and-pasting it 1000 times
1783 2014-03-28 18:40:45 <maaku> you can then emulate up to a 1000 instruction program
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1785 2014-03-28 18:41:22 <kazcw> You can't emulate general control flow with only if- control flow. Loop unrolling only works when you know the iterations in advance.
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1793 2014-03-28 18:45:36 <maaku> you probably can with two stacks. i believe that is the construction which bedeho was pointing to on wikipedia
1794 2014-03-28 18:46:16 <maaku> it would be a much more simple language than x86 of course, but turing complete
1795 2014-03-28 18:46:29 <kazcw> okay, that seems plausible
1796 2014-03-28 18:46:57 <maaku> use the 2nd state to hold some state of the interpreter, for a interpreting a single-stack language
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1798 2014-03-28 18:47:03 <maaku> this is more of a #bitcoin-wizards discussion though
1799 2014-03-28 18:48:04 <maaku> about the only use case I can think of is smugly telling "turing complete!" crowd that they don't know what they're talking about ;)
1800 2014-03-28 18:50:08 <kazcw> If we used a turing-complete language, we'd be vulnerable to non-halting scripts and need a timeout. It would have to be deterministic, so probably weighted instructions executed (where e.g. OP_CHECKSIG is weighted waay more heavily than OP_ADD)
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1804 2014-03-28 18:51:51 <kazcw> although I can't imagine a use case for turing-completeness in a blockchain script that isn't an inappropriate use of everyone's resources
1805 2014-03-28 18:53:09 <maaku> kazcw: that is very easy to protect against. you add instruction counts to the scriptSig format, and black list outputs which don't obey the rules
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1807 2014-03-28 18:53:23 <maaku> that allows fair fees and DoS prevention
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1809 2014-03-28 18:54:07 <maaku> when you start working with smart property contracts, you often need really complicated scripts, which are made easier by having loops or at least some sort of recursion combinator
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1811 2014-03-28 18:54:31 <maaku> that's when the "turing-complete" talk starts making sense
1812 2014-03-28 18:54:37 <kazcw> I don't see the point of including an expected-instructions-executed value with a script, since you can't verify the script without calculating that yourself (and you can't trust the given value anyway)
1813 2014-03-28 18:54:44 <maaku> we should probably move this to #bitcoin-wizards though
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1819 2014-03-28 19:02:40 <jgarzik> hrm, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=395761.msg5928149#msg5928149
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1821 2014-03-28 19:03:03 <jgarzik> <claim not yet evaluated> "this method introduces a lot of unspendable outputs and can never be pruned from the blockchain" </claim not yet evaluated>
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1825 2014-03-28 19:06:33 <maaku> there's no details on that link
1826 2014-03-28 19:06:48 <maaku> but from the brief description, it sounds like mastercoin's initial exodus address format
1827 2014-03-28 19:06:53 <maaku> which yes, is horribly bad
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1843 2014-03-28 19:17:01 <optimator> regtest mode should accept rpc commands, correct?
1844 2014-03-28 19:17:03 Ghaleon has joined
1845 2014-03-28 19:17:47 <sipa> yes
1846 2014-03-28 19:18:07 <optimator> ok
1847 2014-03-28 19:19:36 <optimator> do i need regtest=1 in the conf (i launched bitcoind with that as a command line option)
1848 2014-03-28 19:20:28 <optimator> oops - i got it :)
1849 2014-03-28 19:20:31 <sipa> command lines options have exactly the same effect as config file options
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1859 2014-03-28 19:32:34 <shamoon> if i run "importwallet" on an existing wallet, will it merge the 2 or replace?
1860 2014-03-28 19:35:01 <dhill> merge.  will skip what it already has.
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1917 2014-03-28 20:19:20 <Ghaleon> bitcoind-cli sendfrom   account
1918 2014-03-28 20:19:29 <Ghaleon> can account be an address too ?
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1920 2014-03-28 20:20:13 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: it could, but it doesn't make sense to do that
1921 2014-03-28 20:20:37 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: addresses are only used for receiving, once
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1923 2014-03-28 20:20:45 <Ghaleon> I want to send btc only from certain addresses….
1924 2014-03-28 20:21:00 <Ghaleon> yes well, that is not practical , need something simple
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1926 2014-03-28 20:22:32 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoins are never sent *from* addresses
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1930 2014-03-28 20:22:40 <Luke-Jr> only *to* addresses
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1934 2014-03-28 20:23:15 <Ghaleon> yes
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1937 2014-03-28 20:23:43 <Ghaleon> how then do we put several wallets on one bitcoind ?
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1940 2014-03-28 20:24:02 <kazcw> bitcoind does not have that functionality
1941 2014-03-28 20:24:03 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: you don't.
1942 2014-03-28 20:24:06 <Ghaleon> my main concern is that when the change comes back it comes back to what? a new address only?
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1945 2014-03-28 20:24:11 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind only supports a single wallet right now
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1949 2014-03-28 20:24:25 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: why are you concerned with change?
1950 2014-03-28 20:24:29 <Ghaleon> ok, so how do you suggest we go about hosting multiple wallets on one server?
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1955 2014-03-28 20:25:05 <kazcw> hire someone who knows what they're doing to write a wallet, which may or may not be based on / built on top of bitcoind
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1958 2014-03-28 20:25:23 <Ghaleon> doubleface palm
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1961 2014-03-28 20:25:32 <Ghaleon> not a helpful answer
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1963 2014-03-28 20:25:41 <lianj> Ghaleon: but its the right answer
1964 2014-03-28 20:25:48 dizko has joined
1965 2014-03-28 20:25:48 <Ghaleon> we are here trying to build up this entire scene,
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1967 2014-03-28 20:26:10 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: it is not a good idea to host multiple wallets on one server.
1968 2014-03-28 20:26:12 <Ghaleon> no it is NOT the right answer. the RIGHT is answer is.. keep learning and become that person, here is what i suggest
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1970 2014-03-28 20:26:25 <lianj> you can't change the way bitcoind handles coinselection. so you need your own wallet ontop of it or patch bitcoind to do what you want
1971 2014-03-28 20:26:31 <Ghaleon> then share it with others.. THAt is the RIGHT answer
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1974 2014-03-28 20:26:33 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: it is the right answer. right now, bitcoind does *not* support multiple wallets.
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1978 2014-03-28 20:27:03 <Luke-Jr> so, if you want to use bitcoind, and want multiple wallets, you will need to run one instance of bitcoind per wallet
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1982 2014-03-28 20:27:11 <Luke-Jr> including having their own copies of the blockchain
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1987 2014-03-28 20:27:24 <Luke-Jr> !ops dizko needs a temp ban
1988 2014-03-28 20:27:24 <gribble> Error: "ops" is not a valid command.
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1992 2014-03-28 20:27:47 <Ghaleon> i am building a database ontop of it to house the relations. my main concern now is…. wallet notify firing when the change comes back… if changes comes back to a NEW address then there is no problem…. if it comes back to the SAME address then it is very bad
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1998 2014-03-28 20:28:28 <kazcw> my main concern is that it sounds like you're planning on handling other peoples' money with your current level of knowledge
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2000 2014-03-28 20:28:31 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: addresses are only supposed to ever be used once. that goes for change too, and bitcoind will follow best practices.
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2003 2014-03-28 20:28:49 <Luke-Jr> kazcw: good point.
2004 2014-03-28 20:29:10 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: what are you working on, so we can warn everyone not to touch it with a 10-foot pole? :/
2005 2014-03-28 20:29:20 <Ghaleon> sigh
2006 2014-03-28 20:30:06 shamoon has left ("Leaving...")
2007 2014-03-28 20:30:39 <lianj> to be fair, its not easy being highly motivated and joining here
2008 2014-03-28 20:30:42 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2009 2014-03-28 20:30:56 <Ghaleon> bitcoind will just be used for boradcasting and receving aka wallet notify. the accounts are stored in a relational database
2010 2014-03-28 20:31:28 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: ok, so what's all this talk about multiple wallets for?
2011 2014-03-28 20:31:33 <Ghaleon> u guys maintain the backbone of the system, guys like me buuld the branches out to the common man. u may think I am a noob and perhaps I am but guys like me fill in the rest of the 90%
2012 2014-03-28 20:31:38 <lianj> Ghaleon: sounds like you want your database to also handle the wallet and resulting txs and coinselection
2013 2014-03-28 20:31:45 <Ghaleon> so respect that even if u do not respect me or my skillset
2014 2014-03-28 20:32:23 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: the common man shouldn't be fooled into using services that lack reasonable levels of quality and security
2015 2014-03-28 20:33:20 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016 2014-03-28 20:33:20 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: it sounds like you should be using the traditional secure bitcoin-holding model so far
2017 2014-03-28 20:33:30 <Ghaleon> the common man shouldn;t be forced to live underneath the heel of Mr Rotchild either. so why not stop worrying bout the guys trying to help
2018 2014-03-28 20:33:33 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: that is, one hot wallet, and one cold wallet, with accounts in your relational db
2019 2014-03-28 20:33:58 <Ghaleon> hmmm
2020 2014-03-28 20:34:02 <lianj> Luke-Jr: right
2021 2014-03-28 20:34:15 <Ghaleon> this is interesting, we thought of having two bitcoind’s running one for receiving and the other for sending
2022 2014-03-28 20:34:26 <Ghaleon> and our db ontop of it. is this how everyone is doing it now?
2023 2014-03-28 20:34:35 <lianj> you want the hotwallet anyways if you want to make cold storage happend. doesn't work well if all accounts are truely seperated
2024 2014-03-28 20:34:44 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: actually, if you can process withdrawls manually, you should do just 1 cold wallet..
2025 2014-03-28 20:35:07 dhill has joined
2026 2014-03-28 20:35:35 <Ghaleon> we don’t want to manually review withdrawls
2027 2014-03-28 20:35:40 <Ghaleon> bitcoin should be instant
2028 2014-03-28 20:35:50 <Ghaleon> not having some suit authorize your actions
2029 2014-03-28 20:35:58 <Ghaleon> but limiting liability is a good thing
2030 2014-03-28 20:36:11 <Ghaleon> so 2 wallets one for receving into and one for sending out of is good
2031 2014-03-28 20:36:43 <zeiris> How long do you expect it to take before your service gets hacked and wallets emptied?
2032 2014-03-28 20:36:54 <Ghaleon> my concern is that the wallet notify even doesn;t fireon change and we credit the user who sent out the coins , most of his coins back as change etc… via the callback
2033 2014-03-28 20:37:03 Emcy_ has joined
2034 2014-03-28 20:37:03 <Soligor> #cryptorush
2035 2014-03-28 20:37:14 <Ghaleon> zeris, but the time it will take for Mark Karpelles tog et a six pack
2036 2014-03-28 20:37:16 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: you shouldn't even be aware of change
2037 2014-03-28 20:37:30 Emcy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2038 2014-03-28 20:37:42 <Ghaleon> when Karpelles is shredded I will conceed to your point gladly…..eternity
2039 2014-03-28 20:38:15 Ashaman has joined
2040 2014-03-28 20:38:24 cpacia has joined
2041 2014-03-28 20:38:36 <Ghaleon> ok, Luke-Jr… it seems bitcoind always makes a new address for change so that is cool. bloackchain.info was picking a random address in the wallet to send change back too
2042 2014-03-28 20:38:51 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: yeah, I wouldn't recommend using bc.i for anything important
2043 2014-03-28 20:39:14 <Ghaleon> i see nothing wrong with assinging a user a single static receving address
2044 2014-03-28 20:39:33 <Ghaleon> it may not be best techcnially, but for the common man it is a MUST
2045 2014-03-28 20:39:51 <Ghaleon> hence arch nerds must conceed… to the needs of the average noob
2046 2014-03-28 20:40:14 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: it isn't a must.
2047 2014-03-28 20:40:25 <Ghaleon> we lost lots of btc cuz of bci’s system… ben build something awesome tho.. and free. so we r still VERY thankful
2048 2014-03-28 20:40:38 dhill has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2049 2014-03-28 20:40:49 <Luke-Jr> you'll lose more bitcoins if you encourage address reuse.
2050 2014-03-28 20:41:00 <Ghaleon> average american can’t even remember where they left their car keys, u want them to spawn off new 48 char addreses for each transaction …
2051 2014-03-28 20:41:04 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: just give them a payment URI, rather than a bitcoin address.
2052 2014-03-28 20:41:13 <Ghaleon> Luke, please explain to me how this loss shall happen
2053 2014-03-28 20:41:14 <Luke-Jr> http://yourservice.com/pay/username
2054 2014-03-28 20:41:19 <zeiris> Sounds like you're projecting developer requirements onto clients. This isn't a must for a mysterious common man, just a workaround to simplify your system design :)
2055 2014-03-28 20:41:28 <Ghaleon> i will gladly conceed that I am dead wrong.. but I need to know the percise risks
2056 2014-03-28 20:41:59 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: after you spend coins that were receiving using an address, you've leaked information attackers can use to attack other coins sent to the address
2057 2014-03-28 20:42:28 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: so far, there have been 2 actual attacks done this way; one needed only 2 signatures, the other needs ~300
2058 2014-03-28 20:42:39 <Ghaleon> how can they “attack other coins sent to that address” ? how relasitic is it they can get future coins? all of them ?
2059 2014-03-28 20:42:55 <Ghaleon> u mean this only happened twice in history?
2060 2014-03-28 20:43:07 <Luke-Jr> two methods known to do it
2061 2014-03-28 20:43:14 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: the first attack only works if you use a crappy K selection in your signatures
2062 2014-03-28 20:43:15 <Ghaleon> ahhh. so it happens offten?
2063 2014-03-28 20:43:29 <Luke-Jr> the second method only works if they can get a VPS on the same host CPU as your signing wallet
2064 2014-03-28 20:43:32 <Ghaleon> crappy K selection? is that a bitcoindD setting?
2065 2014-03-28 20:43:41 <Luke-Jr> no, it's not.
2066 2014-03-28 20:43:49 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2067 2014-03-28 20:43:51 <Ghaleon> so the second attack is a shared memeory attack ?
2068 2014-03-28 20:43:57 <Luke-Jr> no, it's a shared CPU attack
2069 2014-03-28 20:43:58 <kazcw> lol "--enable-crappy-k-selection"
2070 2014-03-28 20:44:00 <Ghaleon> ok, safe there, we got dedicated
2071 2014-03-28 20:44:09 maraoz_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2072 2014-03-28 20:44:12 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: those two attacks are not your concern
2073 2014-03-28 20:44:22 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: your concern should be the *future, presently-unknown* attacks
2074 2014-03-28 20:44:25 <Ghaleon> so the first system.. only need 2 signatures… how hard is this to do and how to defend against it?
2075 2014-03-28 20:44:26 drayah has joined
2076 2014-03-28 20:44:28 <Ghaleon> ok
2077 2014-03-28 20:44:40 <Ghaleon> Thank you Luke,   so.. back to your suggestion
2078 2014-03-28 20:44:46 <Ghaleon> give thema receving url....
2079 2014-03-28 20:44:56 <Ghaleon> how can their external wallets use that?
2080 2014-03-28 20:45:13 <Ghaleon> or that url just shows a new qrcode
2081 2014-03-28 20:45:29 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: BIP 70 documents the payment protocol
2082 2014-03-28 20:45:36 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0070.mediawiki
2083 2014-03-28 20:45:40 <Ghaleon> so u give folks a url, which they hit and get your new random qr code and image
2084 2014-03-28 20:45:55 <Luke-Jr> nah, they open the URL and it prompts them to make a payment
2085 2014-03-28 20:45:59 austinhill has joined
2086 2014-03-28 20:46:05 <Luke-Jr> in their bitcoin wallet
2087 2014-03-28 20:47:56 <Ghaleon> hitting the url… sends a pull request to the customers wallet?
2088 2014-03-28 20:48:05 <Ghaleon> what does the customer see?
2089 2014-03-28 20:49:01 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2090 2014-03-28 20:50:31 austinhill has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2091 2014-03-28 20:50:31 <Ghaleon> reading this spec now
2092 2014-03-28 20:51:29 axilla has joined
2093 2014-03-28 20:52:21 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: customer usually just sees their usual "send bitcoins" page, but with a company name from the SSL cert rather than a bitcoin address
2094 2014-03-28 20:52:35 mrc_ has joined
2095 2014-03-28 20:54:49 dims has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2096 2014-03-28 20:57:49 Burrito has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2097 2014-03-28 20:59:37 <Ghaleon> but their wallet must be able to handle this right?
2098 2014-03-28 20:59:49 <Ghaleon> the standard wallet does not support BIPS 70 now
2099 2014-03-28 20:59:57 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: the reference wallet does
2100 2014-03-28 21:00:02 bkbk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2101 2014-03-28 21:00:06 <Luke-Jr> that is, Bitcoin Core
2102 2014-03-28 21:00:33 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin Wallet for Android does also
2103 2014-03-28 21:00:45 <Ghaleon> i need to see this process
2104 2014-03-28 21:00:52 <Ghaleon> want to see what the customer sees
2105 2014-03-28 21:01:30 bkbk has joined
2106 2014-03-28 21:01:45 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: here's a test webapp https://bitcoincore.org/~gavin/createpaymentrequest.php
2107 2014-03-28 21:02:29 <lianj> Luke-Jr: btw would you think its ok to return "signature invalid" if the bitcoin uris address is different from one of the outputs in the payment request pkt?
2108 2014-03-28 21:02:39 the_2nd has joined
2109 2014-03-28 21:02:39 pootietang has joined
2110 2014-03-28 21:03:08 <lianj> aschildbach: oh you are online :)
2111 2014-03-28 21:03:33 <Ghaleon> luke thanks
2112 2014-03-28 21:03:33 <lianj> question is more directed to you. i noticed bitcoin android has that behavior
2113 2014-03-28 21:03:39 <Ghaleon> i need to wrap my head around this
2114 2014-03-28 21:03:42 <Luke-Jr> "When Bitcoin wallet software that supports this BIP receives a bitcoin: URI with a request parameter, it should ignore the bitcoin address/amount/label/message in the URI and instead fetch a PaymentRequest message and then follow the payment protocol, as described in BIP 70."
2115 2014-03-28 21:03:42 <aschildbach> lianj: sometimes this happens (-:
2116 2014-03-28 21:03:49 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0072.mediawiki
2117 2014-03-28 21:03:52 <Ghaleon> if we can make this secure and easy then we can have a hit here!
2118 2014-03-28 21:03:52 <lianj> 'sometimes' ?
2119 2014-03-28 21:03:58 <Ghaleon> add more value to bitcoin
2120 2014-03-28 21:04:14 <Luke-Jr> lianj: per the spec ^, wallets should NOT error if the address doesn't match
2121 2014-03-28 21:04:29 <Luke-Jr> they should ignore the address from the URI entirely
2122 2014-03-28 21:04:39 <lianj> yea, thats what i read and thought too
2123 2014-03-28 21:05:04 <aschildbach> Luke-Jr, lianj: I require this check intentionally.
2124 2014-03-28 21:05:08 <lianj> aschildbach: fix up :P or did you have a reason for adding it?
2125 2014-03-28 21:05:15 <lianj> ah ok
2126 2014-03-28 21:05:36 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: then your wallet is non-compatible and broken
2127 2014-03-28 21:05:50 <aschildbach> Its because BIP72 is unfinished. It requires authentication.
2128 2014-03-28 21:05:55 <Luke-Jr> ⁇
2129 2014-03-28 21:06:03 paveljanik has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2130 2014-03-28 21:06:11 <aschildbach> We already discussed this a lot.
2131 2014-03-28 21:06:48 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: can you point lianj to the discussion?
2132 2014-03-28 21:06:55 <aschildbach> May I know what is the concrete issue?
2133 2014-03-28 21:07:44 <aschildbach> I mean for now you must be backwards compatible anyways. Afaik Bitcoin Wallet is the only wallet to implement QR codes & BIP70.
2134 2014-03-28 21:07:48 <Ghaleon> bitcoin:mq7se9wy2egettFxPbmn99cK8v5AFq55Lx?amount=0.11&r=https://merchant.com/pay.php?h%3D2a8628fc2fbe  that makes sense… can embed that ina  qr code too
2135 2014-03-28 21:07:54 <Ghaleon> starting to get it now
2136 2014-03-28 21:08:54 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: according to aschildbach, you need to omit the address there if you want it to work
2137 2014-03-28 21:08:55 <lianj> just noticed it when implementing it and trying your wallet on it. the test had a different addr inside the pkt than the bitcoin uri, just so i would send it back to the testing wallet more easily. i agree that its prolly not an issue in real world payment request uris
2138 2014-03-28 21:08:55 espringe has joined
2139 2014-03-28 21:09:32 <aschildbach> No, not omit. It needs to be the same.
2140 2014-03-28 21:09:46 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: that's impossible for a printed QR cdoe
2141 2014-03-28 21:09:48 <aschildbach> And also the amount needs to be the same.
2142 2014-03-28 21:09:52 <aschildbach> ??
2143 2014-03-28 21:09:59 VossArtesian has joined
2144 2014-03-28 21:10:14 <Ghaleon> huh?
2145 2014-03-28 21:10:27 <Ghaleon> &r=http://messes up the send?
2146 2014-03-28 21:10:43 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: assuming you never use an address twice, aka "using Bitcoin correctly"
2147 2014-03-28 21:10:48 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: no, the address
2148 2014-03-28 21:10:58 <lianj> aschildbach: from the spec it should just throw away anything but 'r' param, no?
2149 2014-03-28 21:10:58 <justusranvier> Is it correct that using the payment protocol the recipient can ask the sender to include arbitrary outputs in the transaction, including OP_RETURN outputs?
2150 2014-03-28 21:11:01 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: bitcoin:?amount=0.11&r=https://merchant.com/pay.php?h%3D2a8628fc2fbe
2151 2014-03-28 21:11:13 <Ghaleon> omit the bitcoind address??? so no backward omaptibility?
2152 2014-03-28 21:11:31 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: it seems BW4A requires that, unfortunately
2153 2014-03-28 21:11:47 <Ghaleon> BW4A ? what is that
2154 2014-03-28 21:11:49 <Ghaleon> ?
2155 2014-03-28 21:11:51 <Luke-Jr> or maybe BW4A just breaks entirely with payment protocol right now? dunno
2156 2014-03-28 21:12:02 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach's Bitcoin Wallet for Android
2157 2014-03-28 21:12:11 <aschildbach> If you want to get around this limitation, you can use NFC or put the payment request into the QR-code directly.
2158 2014-03-28 21:12:12 pierreatwork has joined
2159 2014-03-28 21:12:17 pierreat1ork has joined
2160 2014-03-28 21:12:45 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: the goal of the payment protocol is that every sender uses a unique scriptPubKey. How do you get that to work with BW4A?
2161 2014-03-28 21:12:53 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: (with the same QR code)
2162 2014-03-28 21:13:04 <Luke-Jr> justusranvier: I don't think so, but I'd have to read it over
2163 2014-03-28 21:13:47 <aschildbach> Luke-Jr: Well the idea of BIP72 is that you use either the BIP70 or the BIP21 payment request, not both.
2164 2014-03-28 21:13:54 <Ghaleon> i can embed the full btc address, amt, label and the r in a QRcode image using the bips format… so when the wallet scans this… and gets the url…. what should the wallet do…? first go to the url and do what? try and get the bitcoin address there? if that fails then use the backward specified one?
2165 2014-03-28 21:13:58 <aschildbach> For different requests of course you can use different addresses.
2166 2014-03-28 21:14:30 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: the goal of payment protocol is to have a single URI/QRcode that can be reused, without reusing a scriptPubKey.
2167 2014-03-28 21:15:04 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: that's what's supposed to happen, yes
2168 2014-03-28 21:15:07 <Ghaleon> yes a bitcoin symlink
2169 2014-03-28 21:15:15 <aschildbach> I don't think that goal is achievable safely
2170 2014-03-28 21:15:23 Emzy has joined
2171 2014-03-28 21:15:39 <aschildbach> As I said, BIP72 is missing authentication
2172 2014-03-28 21:15:39 <Ghaleon> ok, but then the merchants payment page would need to be in a very setformat. so the wallet can extract the address from it....
2173 2014-03-28 21:15:58 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: you mean besides SSL?
2174 2014-03-28 21:16:00 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2175 2014-03-28 21:16:01 <Ghaleon> auehticate who ? tghe customers bitcoin wallet?
2176 2014-03-28 21:16:11 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: read BIP 70
2177 2014-03-28 21:16:53 <aschildbach> If I pay to someone I want to be sure the payment arrives on the phone he presents.
2178 2014-03-28 21:17:01 <Apocalyptic> Luke-Jr, that BIP is so wrong
2179 2014-03-28 21:17:22 <lianj> aschildbach: that sounds weird
2180 2014-03-28 21:17:35 <aschildbach> Why weird?
2181 2014-03-28 21:17:42 <lianj> what does 'the phone he presents' mean?
2182 2014-03-28 21:17:48 <Apocalyptic> why substitute an URL instead of an address is beyond me
2183 2014-03-28 21:17:50 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: I don't have a phone. Just a printed QR code.
2184 2014-03-28 21:18:01 <Luke-Jr> Apocalyptic: because an address can only be used once
2185 2014-03-28 21:18:01 espringe has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2186 2014-03-28 21:18:03 <Apocalyptic> given all the potential security issues it implies
2187 2014-03-28 21:18:13 <aschildbach> Printed QR codes shouldn't be used.
2188 2014-03-28 21:18:15 <lianj> shouldn't matter who fetches and answers the payment_request packet
2189 2014-03-28 21:19:00 <aschildbach> Because you can easily tape them over (or similar)
2190 2014-03-28 21:19:24 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: there are use cases that is not a problem
2191 2014-03-28 21:19:41 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: for example, one could print it on their business card and tell clients to just send payment to that
2192 2014-03-28 21:20:33 <Ghaleon> the customers wallet… 1. scans the qr code from the merchant…. 2. then goes to the r=htt:// addres and gets the NAME of the merchant and the customers wallet if bips 70 compatible will ask them if they wanna pay  Fred’s magnet co… instead of .. sfvewrfg3rfg3rv34fgrwv34tgfwr … if they say yes 4. the customers wallet send the btc to the address…. 5. customer gets a notification that they paid……. how does 5
2193 2014-03-28 21:20:33 <Ghaleon> work ?
2194 2014-03-28 21:20:40 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2195 2014-03-28 21:21:02 <lianj> aschildbach: can you explain what "the phone he presents" mean or how that would be enforced/handled?
2196 2014-03-28 21:21:09 pierreat1ork has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2197 2014-03-28 21:21:28 <Luke-Jr> Ghaleon: BIP 70 covers that
2198 2014-03-28 21:21:48 <lianj> Ghaleon: yes please, you just heard if payment protocol like 5 minutes ago :)
2199 2014-03-28 21:22:40 <aschildbach> lianj: I meet you in person. You want to sell me a used computer lets say. You present me a payment request, but because of the indirection of BIP72 that payment request could me MITMed by someone else.
2200 2014-03-28 21:23:07 <aschildbach> Something neither of us wouldn't expect -- there is no MITM between our phones.
2201 2014-03-28 21:23:20 <Luke-Jr> …
2202 2014-03-28 21:23:37 <Ghaleon> lianj that is not the right flow?
2203 2014-03-28 21:23:43 <Luke-Jr> phone-to-phone payment protocol has no reason to use a middle-man server
2204 2014-03-28 21:23:49 VossArtesian has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2205 2014-03-28 21:24:01 <lianj> ok, but thats only part of the wanted use case. that doesn't cover the normal merchant (bitpay) use case at all. and the ssl verifiction is the authentication against mitm, no?
2206 2014-03-28 21:25:01 <aschildbach> Well the app targets the face 2 face case and what's more, the anonymous case so X.509 has no value.
2207 2014-03-28 21:25:46 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin is never anonymous.
2208 2014-03-28 21:25:50 <lianj> so the app tries to make/test its own payment protocol but also handles bip70 as a fallback?
2209 2014-03-28 21:25:53 <aschildbach> Services like bitpay need to stay backwards compatible anyway for some time. And until they can remove the BIP21 request from the QR code we hopefully have a standard for authentication.
2210 2014-03-28 21:26:23 <aschildbach> Mike made a proposal how to do it
2211 2014-03-28 21:26:29 <lianj> how is the ssl verifaction no authentication against mitm?
2212 2014-03-28 21:26:32 espringe has joined
2213 2014-03-28 21:26:45 <aschildbach> Although I think it will probably also not work with your printed QR use case
2214 2014-03-28 21:27:11 <lianj> (i have no printed qr use case) but ok
2215 2014-03-28 21:27:21 <aschildbach> Because a MITM can sign with any certificate. It does not matter, I cannot verify it.
2216 2014-03-28 21:27:40 <Ghaleon> how exactly does the merchant wallet server send a acknowledgement message back to the customer wallet? this is the part i do not get
2217 2014-03-28 21:27:53 <lianj> aschildbach: on the android app you mean? why can't you verify the chain?
2218 2014-03-28 21:27:55 <Ghaleon> enuf with the MITM issue… ssl covers it just fine
2219 2014-03-28 21:28:33 <lianj> aschildbach: can i pm you?
2220 2014-03-28 21:28:40 <aschildbach> In the end the user needs to verify. Its the same like these browser certs, if the user doesn't check them they're worthless.
2221 2014-03-28 21:28:51 <aschildbach> lianj: sure
2222 2014-03-28 21:29:17 olalonde has joined
2223 2014-03-28 21:29:32 SwampTony has joined
2224 2014-03-28 21:29:59 <olalonde> is there any tool out there that syncs the blockchain with a sql database?
2225 2014-03-28 21:31:02 <Ghaleon> landlodnde armoryd.py does that me thinks
2226 2014-03-28 21:31:17 <Ghaleon> firehoses out bc data .. slow tho
2227 2014-03-28 21:31:51 <olalonde> I see
2228 2014-03-28 21:32:20 <Ghaleon> u want to build a block exprlorer right?
2229 2014-03-28 21:33:10 <Ghaleon> that is the use I see for that, a fast block explorer… getting raw transaction id’s and logging all imputs and out puts in a way that is linear and has integrity… should equate to every address ever used
2230 2014-03-28 21:33:14 mjb504 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2231 2014-03-28 21:33:19 <olalonde> kind of, do some analysis on the blockchain
2232 2014-03-28 21:33:21 <Ghaleon> was trying to figure out how BCi did it
2233 2014-03-28 21:33:49 <kazcw> that's what libbitcoin/obelisk is for
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2237 2014-03-28 21:36:08 <Ghaleon> this BIPS70’…  PaymentACK is the final message in the payment protocol; it is sent from the merchant's server to the bitcoin wallet in response to a Payment message:
2238 2014-03-28 21:36:22 <Ghaleon> this protocooll… onyl the android wallet supports it  now…
2239 2014-03-28 21:36:37 <Ghaleon> tryi ng tow rap my head around this… if I wanted to do this with a web wallet...
2240 2014-03-28 21:36:40 <Ghaleon> that would be ideal
2241 2014-03-28 21:36:50 <Ghaleon> and support like thar would push bips 70 FAST
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2250 2014-03-28 21:46:22 <olalonde> obelisk looks interesting indeed
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2261 2014-03-28 22:03:48 <justusranvier> What's the opposite of OP_RETURN? And by that I mean an output script that absolutely anyone can spend?
2262 2014-03-28 22:04:10 <kazcw> a zero-length scriptPubKey achieves that
2263 2014-03-28 22:04:19 <kazcw> scriptSig: OP_TRUE
2264 2014-03-28 22:05:22 olalonde has joined
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2267 2014-03-28 22:05:45 <olalonde> ERROR: ConnectInputs() : 75e7fb2537 mapTransactions prev not found 0618268643
2268 2014-03-28 22:05:45 <olalonde> ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool() : ConnectInputs failed 75e7fb2537
2269 2014-03-28 22:05:52 <olalonde> bitcoind won't download blocks anymore :(
2270 2014-03-28 22:06:00 <justusranvier> OP_RETURN makes coins permanently unspendable. Wouldn't it be better, if the purpose is just to record some data that is permenently part of the blockchain but prunable from the utxo set to use OP_TRUE instead?
2271 2014-03-28 22:06:00 <olalonde> please don't tell me I need to start over :(
2272 2014-03-28 22:07:17 <olalonde> I believe OP_TRUE could make an output spendable
2273 2014-03-28 22:07:18 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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2275 2014-03-28 22:08:38 <justusranvier> How long is it going to be before people start agitating to make OP_RETURN outputs reminable anyway? Might as well just use outputs that are inherently reminable.
2276 2014-03-28 22:09:42 <kazcw> It'd be effectively paying to the mining pool operator, although it wouldn't be distributed among miners like regular fees unless some special provision for that were added to the payout logic. In that sense it'd be preferable to require OP_RETURNs to have vout=0, and pay the same fee the normal way.
2277 2014-03-28 22:09:58 <olalonde> a script that ends with OP_TRUE would make the output spendable by anyone AFAIK
2278 2014-03-28 22:09:59 VossArtesian has joined
2279 2014-03-28 22:10:49 <airbreather> olalonde: yeah, that's what kazcw said, since "anyone" there really means whoever puts it into a block
2280 2014-03-28 22:11:09 <olalonde> ah right
2281 2014-03-28 22:11:18 <justusranvier> For some reason I thought you needed to spend a few satoshis to make a standard OP_RETURN output
2282 2014-03-28 22:11:39 <justusranvier> But if you're allowed to make zero value outputs, then never mind
2283 2014-03-28 22:11:43 <olalonde> makes sense but some people really want to destroy their coins.. not give them to the miner
2284 2014-03-28 22:12:15 <kazcw> justusranvier: I think you do; the dust limit applies to OP_RETURN, even though it doesn't make any sense for that case. It seems like lifting that restriction would be a better way to avoid coin destruction (although the need to do that seems dubious)
2285 2014-03-28 22:12:46 <kazcw> oh, actually the dust limit isn't applied to OP_RETURN outputs
2286 2014-03-28 22:13:00 Ghaleon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2287 2014-03-28 22:13:39 <sipa> kazcw: the dust limit does not apply to it, as no dust is created
2288 2014-03-28 22:14:01 <sipa> otherwise opreturn would require burning coims
2289 2014-03-28 22:14:17 <kazcw> yes, I corrected myself after I re-checked the source
2290 2014-03-28 22:16:32 <olalonde> anyone knows why I keep getting those messages and my block count has stopped increasing? ERROR: ConnectInputs() : 6d053207e3 mapTransactions prev not found c3c69e8dbe
2291 2014-03-28 22:16:33 <olalonde> ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool() : ConnectInputs failed 6d053207e3
2292 2014-03-28 22:17:54 <sipa> olalonde: that may just be because it's an orphan or double spend
2293 2014-03-28 22:18:06 <sipa> olalonde: how long has it stopped?
2294 2014-03-28 22:18:43 <olalonde> sipa: a few hours I believe
2295 2014-03-28 22:18:48 gingpark has joined
2296 2014-03-28 22:18:54 <olalonde> sipa: block count is at 258354
2297 2014-03-28 22:19:17 <sipa> dioes exit and restart help?
2298 2014-03-28 22:19:24 <olalonde> nope :(
2299 2014-03-28 22:19:37 <sipa> then you likely have a corrupted database
2300 2014-03-28 22:19:41 Ghaleon has joined
2301 2014-03-28 22:19:45 <olalonde> no0oooo :'(
2302 2014-03-28 22:19:52 <sipa> but i'd need to se more of debug.log to be sure
2303 2014-03-28 22:20:00 <olalonde> been downloading the blockchain since monday on this connection :(
2304 2014-03-28 22:20:00 <sipa> what system and bitcoin version?
2305 2014-03-28 22:20:10 <sipa> you don't need to download it again
2306 2014-03-28 22:20:36 <sipa> start with -reindex
2307 2014-03-28 22:20:54 <maaku> olalonde: reindexing will be faster
2308 2014-03-28 22:21:05 <olalonde> Ubuntu 12.04,  "version" : 32400
2309 2014-03-28 22:21:08 <olalonde> ok
2310 2014-03-28 22:21:16 <sipa> 0.3.24??
2311 2014-03-28 22:21:25 <sipa> where do you even find that?
2312 2014-03-28 22:21:29 <sipa> run 0.9 please
2313 2014-03-28 22:21:48 <sipa> versions before 0.8 aren't supported anymore
2314 2014-03-28 22:22:07 <sipa> i'm very impressed it got that far
2315 2014-03-28 22:22:17 <kazcw> Mother of Satoshi, that's from July 2011
2316 2014-03-28 22:22:19 <olalonde> ubuntu 12.04 package… I assumed it was kind of recent
2317 2014-03-28 22:22:23 <sipa> but it explains why it took you so long
2318 2014-03-28 22:22:40 <olalonde> version is the ouptut of bitcoind getinfo.. I guess it's the version of something else then?
2319 2014-03-28 22:22:48 <maaku> it would be better if Ubuntu just removed the package
2320 2014-03-28 22:22:51 <maaku> since they don't maintain it
2321 2014-03-28 22:22:53 <sipa> olalonde: no
2322 2014-03-28 22:23:14 <sipa> olalonde: not sure what you think or why
2323 2014-03-28 22:23:31 VossArtesian has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2324 2014-03-28 22:23:38 <sipa> 32400 is 0.3.24 which is over 3 years old
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2327 2014-03-28 22:26:32 espringe has quit (Quit: espringe)
2328 2014-03-28 22:28:08 <sipa> olalonde: there is a ppa for ubuntu, but i believe it only has 0.8.6
2329 2014-03-28 22:28:15 <sipa> no 0.9 yet
2330 2014-03-28 22:29:01 <olalonde> oops
2331 2014-03-28 22:29:06 <olalonde> it's really 0.3.24 :P
2332 2014-03-28 22:30:20 <olalonde> aiya ok
2333 2014-03-28 22:30:23 SwampTony has joined
2334 2014-03-28 22:30:25 <olalonde> I'll compile from source then
2335 2014-03-28 22:30:50 <olalonde> was expecting ubuntu would keep the package somewhat up to date
2336 2014-03-28 22:32:25 <sipa> also, before 0.8 uses a different database format
2337 2014-03-28 22:32:35 <sipa> so you'll need to reindex anyway
2338 2014-03-28 22:33:15 <olalonde> cool
2339 2014-03-28 22:33:37 <olalonde> the database is an index to the block files right?
2340 2014-03-28 22:34:21 <maaku> olalonde: yes
2341 2014-03-28 22:34:42 <maaku> olalonde: you can just grab the binary from bitcoin.org
2342 2014-03-28 22:34:48 <maaku> it runs fine on 12.04
2343 2014-03-28 22:34:59 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2344 2014-03-28 22:36:14 <aschildbach> sipa: The Ubuntu PPA has been updated to 0.9.0 several days ago.
2345 2014-03-28 22:36:14 espringe has joined
2346 2014-03-28 22:37:21 <sipa> aschildbach: oh, good to know!
2347 2014-03-28 22:37:23 <aschildbach> https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin
2348 2014-03-28 22:38:11 <sipa> olalonde: there is a block index in the database yes, but the largest part is the 'chainstate', whuvh contains all unspent transaction outputs and metadata about them
2349 2014-03-28 22:40:32 airq has joined
2350 2014-03-28 22:43:33 <maaku> sipa BlueMatt : I've implemented the first phase of compact spv proofs here : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3977
2351 2014-03-28 22:44:22 <maaku> it's the changes necessary for more compact commitment proofs of any kind
2352 2014-03-28 22:45:11 LightRider has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2353 2014-03-28 22:45:29 <s7r> what would be a good way for mixing some coins in order to prevent tracking?
2354 2014-03-28 22:45:53 <kazcw> coinjoin
2355 2014-03-28 22:46:02 smash has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2356 2014-03-28 22:46:31 <s7r> i mean the technical background of a system, i would like to build one
2357 2014-03-28 22:47:13 <olalonde> ok
2358 2014-03-28 22:48:25 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
2359 2014-03-28 22:48:26 <maaku> s7r: lookup the coinjoin thread on bitcointalk
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2366 2014-03-28 23:02:30 <CodeShark> any plans for increasing the scriptSig size limit?
2367 2014-03-28 23:02:43 <CodeShark> I've got people very interested in 5of8 multisigs
2368 2014-03-28 23:02:57 <CodeShark> but right now I can do at most 3of5 due to the 500 byte scriptSig limit
2369 2014-03-28 23:05:03 ThomasV has joined
2370 2014-03-28 23:05:13 <CodeShark> byw, the calculation for the 500 is incorrect
2371 2014-03-28 23:05:20 Guyver2 has quit (Quit: :))
2372 2014-03-28 23:05:22 <CodeShark> at least per the comments in the code
2373 2014-03-28 23:05:46 <CodeShark> the comments claim 3-of-3 but assume 65 byte pubkeys
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2381 2014-03-28 23:11:28 <sipa> CodeShark: with compressed ones you can do up to 15 or 16 pubkeys afaik
2382 2014-03-28 23:11:39 <CodeShark> negative
2383 2014-03-28 23:11:41 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2384 2014-03-28 23:11:48 <CodeShark> the problem isn't the pubkeys as much as the signatures
2385 2014-03-28 23:12:06 <sipa> the signatures are individual pushes
2386 2014-03-28 23:12:10 <CodeShark> we're talking 500 bytes for the entire input script
2387 2014-03-28 23:12:14 <CodeShark> not each individual push
2388 2014-03-28 23:12:24 MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2389 2014-03-28 23:12:25 <sipa> there is no such limit
2390 2014-03-28 23:12:35 <CodeShark> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L519
2391 2014-03-28 23:12:37 <espringe> My mempool is full of some monster transactions. Some sort of DoS?
2392 2014-03-28 23:12:48 <espringe> > 10 transactions, with over 300 inputs
2393 2014-03-28 23:12:48 <sipa> individual data pushes are up to 520 bytes
2394 2014-03-28 23:13:01 benkay has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2395 2014-03-28 23:13:15 <espringe> For some reason, they all have 388 inputs
2396 2014-03-28 23:13:40 Application has joined
2397 2014-03-28 23:14:21 <sipa> CodeShark: hmmm
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2399 2014-03-28 23:14:38 <kazcw> CodeShark: that's a limit on standard transactions. 5-of-8 multisigs are legal, but you'd need to submit them directly to a miner since they aren't relayed
2400 2014-03-28 23:14:51 <sipa> yeah sure
2401 2014-03-28 23:14:59 <CodeShark> I've hit that limit - it's definitely there, sipa
2402 2014-03-28 23:14:59 <sipa> but that shouldn't be necessary
2403 2014-03-28 23:15:56 <sipa> petertodd recently submitted a pullreq for so!e canges related to that limit afaik
2404 2014-03-28 23:16:00 rdymac has joined
2405 2014-03-28 23:16:07 <CodeShark> any idea for when they might get merged?
2406 2014-03-28 23:16:08 <espringe> Gah. My script ran out of memory just trying to figure out the transaction fees on these stupid transactions. They have 388 inputs, but each one of their input is another massive-ass transaction lol
2407 2014-03-28 23:16:23 <CodeShark> I've got some guys interested in putting 5of8 to use in the next week or two
2408 2014-03-28 23:16:50 <CodeShark> my tools are ready but the network is not :(
2409 2014-03-28 23:17:10 Neozonz has quit (Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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2411 2014-03-28 23:17:49 <CodeShark> may I suggest the following simple fix: remove lines 519 through 522 of main :)
2412 2014-03-28 23:18:47 <kazcw> ;;bc,wiki free transaction relay policy
2413 2014-03-28 23:18:47 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Free_transaction_relay_policy | Nov 8, 2013 ... The original client currently refuses to relay transactions it considers " unacceptable". However, there may be miners that are willing to put these ...
2414 2014-03-28 23:18:49 <CodeShark> heck, start from line 516 - that comment is wrong anyhow :)
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2418 2014-03-28 23:19:29 <sipa> ;;calc 5*73+1+8*34
2419 2014-03-28 23:19:29 <gribble> 638
2420 2014-03-28 23:19:48 <sipa> right, you need a bit over 500 for 5-of-8
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2422 2014-03-28 23:22:27 <sipa> CodeShark: peter's pullreq changes it to the highest you can do without violation other rules
2423 2014-03-28 23:22:28 <kazcw> CodeShark: if you choose to use 5-of-8s as nonstandard txs, the scriptPubKey will be standard (so you can deposit to the 5-of-8 address right away) but the transaction spending it will be nonstandard, and may take a few hours to be mined (and makes you dependent on specific miners sticking to policies that accept your transactions)
2424 2014-03-28 23:22:55 <sipa> which is up to 10-of-16 or so
2425 2014-03-28 23:23:00 cajg has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2426 2014-03-28 23:23:37 <sipa> CodeShark: so comment/test/review it if you want it :)
2427 2014-03-28 23:25:09 <CodeShark> ok, will do :)
2428 2014-03-28 23:25:15 <CodeShark> thx
2429 2014-03-28 23:26:38 <CodeShark> yeah, petertodd raises it to 1650
2430 2014-03-28 23:26:39 <CodeShark> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3843/files#diff-7ec3c68a81efff79b6ca22ac1f1eabbaR516
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2443 2014-03-28 23:39:14 <dexX7> what is the current maximum for p2sh m-of-n transactions with compressed keys?
2444 2014-03-28 23:39:30 <dexX7> maximum in the context of "standard transactions"
2445 2014-03-28 23:39:38 banghouse has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2446 2014-03-28 23:40:35 <shesek> dexX7, 3 when you're using multi-signature in the output script
2447 2014-03-28 23:40:38 <shesek> 15 if you're using p2sh
2448 2014-03-28 23:41:02 <dexX7> oh 15? thanks :)
2449 2014-03-28 23:41:12 <kazcw> n=15 for some m=what?
2450 2014-03-28 23:41:45 <dexX7> i assume n-of-15 is meant
2451 2014-03-28 23:42:14 <dexX7> ah nvm
2452 2014-03-28 23:43:45 <Luke-Jr> 15 for IsStandard on P2SH, but 3 for actual standards IIRC
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2455 2014-03-28 23:51:17 <kazcw> The limit is 500-4 = 73*n + 34*m, where I'm not sure the overhead is exactly 4, and signatures could average more than 73 bytes in rare cases... So the maximums given those assumptions are (1-of-12, 2-of-10, 3-of-8, 4-of-6).
2456 2014-03-28 23:51:41 richcollins has joined
2457 2014-03-28 23:55:48 <dexX7> thanks
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