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   2 2014-03-31 00:02:19 <Genitrust> nevermidn it's working now... i removed blocks/ and chainstate/ directory
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   8 2014-03-31 00:04:03 <Genitrust> hmm, size of the blocks directory gets up to 23MB ... and then it stops growing...
   9 2014-03-31 00:04:14 <Genitrust> (my bootstrap.dat is about 16GB maybe?)
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  16 2014-03-31 00:11:09 <sipa> Genitrust: then perhaps the data in your bootstrap is corrupted as well
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  19 2014-03-31 00:12:51 <Genitrust> bitcoind ... does this actually download the blockchain ?
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  21 2014-03-31 00:14:49 <Genitrust> so i started Armory... and now blocks/ size jumped to 27 MB  o.O
  22 2014-03-31 00:14:49 Zifre___ is now known as Zifre
  23 2014-03-31 00:15:52 <sipa> Genitrust: yes it will automatically download
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  25 2014-03-31 00:16:10 <sipa> Genitrust: it's the reference client that pretty much runs the network
  26 2014-03-31 00:16:28 <sipa> Genitrust: it will first try to process your entire bootstrap.dat though
  27 2014-03-31 00:16:43 <sipa> and if one block in it corrupted, everything after it will fail
  28 2014-03-31 00:18:35 <Genitrust> ahh i understand
  29 2014-03-31 00:18:37 <Genitrust> thanks sipa !
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 265 2014-03-31 04:08:45 <todamoon> hola
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 269 2014-03-31 04:11:14 <todamoon> anyone knows why the target (bits field) is included in the block header?
 270 2014-03-31 04:12:38 <Luke-Jr> todamoon: SPV nodes
 271 2014-03-31 04:13:11 <wumpus> IIRC it allows for fast rejection of blocks with the wrong difficulty
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 273 2014-03-31 04:13:38 <todamoon> ok
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 276 2014-03-31 04:13:57 <todamoon> makes sense
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 278 2014-03-31 04:14:19 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: eh, not really..
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 280 2014-03-31 04:17:05 <todamoon> Luke-Jr: how does having the target in the header help with SPV?
 281 2014-03-31 04:17:32 <Luke-Jr> todamoon: it immediately knows the difficulty without downloading all the history
 282 2014-03-31 04:17:49 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: ok I remember reading it was used for that, I'm not trying to argue
 283 2014-03-31 04:18:39 <todamoon> Luke-Jr: why do they need to know the difficulty? aren't they just suppose to accept the chain with highest PoW?
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 285 2014-03-31 04:19:58 <mr_burdell> highest height... I guess it could detect a fake difficulty based on previous difficulty values
 286 2014-03-31 04:20:45 <mr_burdell> if I send an SPV node a new chain with greater height, but all my blocks have difficulty of 1, it could tell that it's fake
 287 2014-03-31 04:21:01 <Luke-Jr> todamoon: you don't know the highest work without difficulty
 288 2014-03-31 04:21:36 <todamoon> what I'm wondering is why is it part of the header if it needs to be computed by clients anyways
 289 2014-03-31 04:21:52 <Luke-Jr> SPV clients don't need to compute it
 290 2014-03-31 04:21:57 <Luke-Jr> you need all the past block headers to compute it
 291 2014-03-31 04:22:13 <mr_burdell> don't SPV nodes download the headers though?
 292 2014-03-31 04:22:18 <todamoon> right
 293 2014-03-31 04:22:34 <Luke-Jr> on a limb: you aren't under the impression that the actual block header hash value is used itself for something, are you?
 294 2014-03-31 04:22:48 <Luke-Jr> mr_burdell: they can, but don't need to necessarily
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 299 2014-03-31 04:28:09 <todamoon> it's not clear to me why SPV nodes need to know the difficulty or should trust it when they see it. it seems it'd be safer for them to just accept the chain with the most PoW (this could probably be determined by computing the average of all header hashes and choosing the chain with lowest average)
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 302 2014-03-31 04:29:53 <kadoban> Currently, non-push opcodes in transactions don't invalidate the transaction, right?  Only in P2SH transactions, and BIP62 eventually?
 303 2014-03-31 04:30:10 <kadoban> in the scriptSig I mean
 304 2014-03-31 04:30:54 <Luke-Jr> kadoban: depends on the opcode
 305 2014-03-31 04:31:21 <kadoban> Right, but they're not invaliding on their face just by being non-push, right?
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 312 2014-03-31 04:35:18 <wumpus> non-push opcodes in the input script make the transaction non-standard, but they don't 'invalidate' the transaction
 313 2014-03-31 04:36:00 <kadoban> Okay, thanks.  But in P2SH they do, correct?
 314 2014-03-31 04:36:54 <wumpus> in P2SH the outer script still contains only push opcodes, but an validation script is pushed to the stack and that can contain non-push opcodes
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 346 2014-03-31 05:07:47 <saizai> FYI: I’m going to be talking to the FEC this Thursday re. AO 2014-02, my PAC’s Bitcoin AOR.
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 363 2014-03-31 05:36:25 <todamoon> is the original source code released by satoshi available for download somewhere?
 364 2014-03-31 05:37:23 <todamoon> seems the git repo only goes back to 2011
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 366 2014-03-31 05:39:57 <Ghaleon> Locked down ubuntu so tight… i locked myself out…
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 376 2014-03-31 06:01:52 <devrandom> ouch
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 378 2014-03-31 06:03:48 <Ghaleon> installed like 3 rootkit checks, port scanners, security auditor like tiger
 379 2014-03-31 06:03:57 <Ghaleon> mod security with owasp defs
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 381 2014-03-31 06:04:01 <Ghaleon> mid evasive
 382 2014-03-31 06:04:11 <Ghaleon> so much stuff, changed ports. fire walls
 383 2014-03-31 06:04:29 <Ghaleon> fail2ban deny hosts
 384 2014-03-31 06:04:32 <Ghaleon> the workz
 385 2014-03-31 06:04:52 <Ghaleon> lol… now the btc is untouchable
 386 2014-03-31 06:07:38 <Ghaleon> not really the best use of time.. as 90% of vulnerabilities are in the web code itself… in my experience
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 388 2014-03-31 06:07:57 <wumpus> please take this somewhere else, this is not bitcoin development discussion
 389 2014-03-31 06:08:17 <Ghaleon> k
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 451 2014-03-31 07:10:11 <Genitrust> so just curious, why use a bootstrap.dat when you can just copy over the blocks/ and chainstate/ directories?
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 460 2014-03-31 07:15:47 <gmaxwell> Genitrust: because they are not reliably portable between systems and because they could contain incorrect data which could be used to attack you and/or the network.
 461 2014-03-31 07:16:21 <gmaxwell> (also, this question belongs in #bitcoin— but you asked here first so I saw it here first)
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 465 2014-03-31 07:17:26 <Genitrust> gmaxwell, thanks :)
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 467 2014-03-31 07:18:03 <Genitrust> I agree. so basically, the file structure/format or databases aren't compatible between each platform?
 468 2014-03-31 07:18:22 <Genitrust> I am asking for the sake of installing this onto other employee's workstations
 469 2014-03-31 07:19:04 <Genitrust> (btw, my question rephrases what you said because i'm just curious if by "systems" you are referring to the operating system platforms themselves...)
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 473 2014-03-31 07:20:24 <wumpus> right, the leveldb databases are somehow not compatible between OSes/CPU architectures
 474 2014-03-31 07:20:37 <Genitrust> oooh, darn
 475 2014-03-31 07:20:48 <Genitrust> even between unix/linux OSes? :(
 476 2014-03-31 07:20:53 <wumpus> it's not entirely clear why, so if you feel like debugging it, be my guest
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 544 2014-03-31 08:21:20 <sipa> gmaxwell, Genitrust: copying bootstrap also means validsating it; if you copy a preprocessed database, you risk importing a state that makes your node think your attacker has more money than he does (and this is very hard to detect)
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 546 2014-03-31 08:21:43 <sipa> Genitrust: in general, the trust requirements foe bootstrap are much lower
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 567 2014-03-31 08:35:35 <Genitrust> sipa thanks....good answer :)
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 830 2014-03-31 11:12:03 <aschildbach_> I just tried running my bitcoind 0.9.0 node using disablewallet=1. Is it just me or is it replaying the blockchain much quicker? It seems to do ~10 bps while it used to scan at ~1 bps before. (It's a slow Atom processor.)
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 876 2014-03-31 11:42:34 <wumpus> could be, the time that a 'rescan' normally takes is expected to be subtracted from the full indexing time
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 886 2014-03-31 11:52:22 <warren> aschildbach_: wallet.dat keeps track of the last block it scanned
 887 2014-03-31 11:52:38 <warren> aschildbach_: you can witness the same behavior by swapping out wallet.dat
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1025 2014-03-31 13:47:21 <Alina-malina> is it possible to tune the address like so for example if sender needs to send for example 10 btc with that address bitcoin autmatically keep fee of 1BTC and send to another wallet and continue storing that btc of 9 to destination?
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1053 2014-03-31 14:16:22 <viajero> !seen gmaxwell
1054 2014-03-31 14:16:23 <gribble> gmaxwell was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 7 hours and 0 seconds ago: <gmaxwell> (also, this question belongs in #bitcoin— but you asked here first so I saw it here first)
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1062 2014-03-31 14:28:01 <christophe> Alina-malina: No, but the payment protocol lets you specify outputs however you want. So a payment request could contain two outputs. If you're building a payment service, that's what you should be using.
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1160 2014-03-31 15:47:07 <Joric> hi all, gmaxwell
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1162 2014-03-31 15:49:49 <Alina-malina> someone please unban me from bitcoin channel.
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1165 2014-03-31 15:52:18 <Alina-malina> iwilcox, please unban me
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1169 2014-03-31 15:56:08 <andytoshi> for those curious, Alina-malina has been persistently trolling bitcoin for a few days, asking incoherent questions, ignoring advice and answers, and insulting those who tried to help
1170 2014-03-31 15:56:23 <Alina-malina> andytoshi, proof it?
1171 2014-03-31 15:56:40 <paveljanik> I have seen it...
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1173 2014-03-31 15:57:07 <Alina-malina> andytoshi, you are not helping you are yelling on me
1174 2014-03-31 15:57:14 <edcba> anyway bitcoin is not bitcoin-dev asking unban in another channel is not a good idea
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1177 2014-03-31 15:58:57 <Alina-malina> andytoshi, allright unban me
1178 2014-03-31 15:59:23 <andytoshi> Alina-malina: (a) no, (b) plonk, (c) this is OT for #bitcoin-dev, this is a logged development channel
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1180 2014-03-31 15:59:55 <Alina-malina> andytoshi, i bet if i was man you would not be so corage, shame on you
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1189 2014-03-31 16:06:11 <maaku> Alina-malina: attitude like that will get you banned here as well. this is off-topic, take it somewhere else
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1191 2014-03-31 16:06:47 <Alina-malina> maaku, how to unban?
1192 2014-03-31 16:06:56 <maaku> Alina-malina: not here
1193 2014-03-31 16:07:01 <Alina-malina> where?
1194 2014-03-31 16:07:09 <maaku> i don't know and i don't care
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1197 2014-03-31 16:10:16 <Ry4an> this channel and that channel are unrelated.  Coming in here to ask to be unbanned there is like going into a one bar and asking to be unbanned in another bar that happens to have some patron overlap.  It will only confuse and annoy the people in the bar where you're not (yet) banned.
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1206 2014-03-31 16:17:00 <Alina-malina> Ry4an, so?
1207 2014-03-31 16:17:47 <Alina-malina> eh
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1210 2014-03-31 16:18:22 <stonecoldpat> Its best just to ignore and just have the discussion thats supposed to be here
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1254 2014-03-31 17:01:01 <mappum> what are the differences between values of -checklevel on bitcoind?
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1362 2014-03-31 18:15:03 <hearn> hmm wow. the biteasy.com explorer got REALLY responsive
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1374 2014-03-31 18:19:57 <roasbeef> responsive in terms of design? Or user perceived latency in the web app?
1375 2014-03-31 18:22:07 <roasbeef> :o nvm it's lightning fast now
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1424 2014-03-31 19:13:26 <gmaxwell> I'm skeptical about deploying a committed address ordered utxo... as it adds a considerable cost to verifying nodes, with the benefit of incentivizing address reuse. :P
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1426 2014-03-31 19:14:35 <hearn> well, i’ll be damned. the dogecoin guys are actually implementing useful features in their wallets that bitcoin wallets don’t have
1427 2014-03-31 19:14:36 <hearn> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZKTunML8kI
1428 2014-03-31 19:14:44 <hearn> hopefully it can be easily merged back into the bitcoin android app
1429 2014-03-31 19:17:19 <sipa> hearn: relying on a central server :(
1430 2014-03-31 19:17:37 <sipa> (no other way to do it right now, of course)
1431 2014-03-31 19:17:40 <hearn> sure
1432 2014-03-31 19:17:41 benwilber has joined
1433 2014-03-31 19:17:46 <hearn> i’ll take that for now over the feature not existing at all
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1439 2014-03-31 19:25:07 <ad949kf> why does private key sweeping rely on a central server?
1440 2014-03-31 19:25:40 <ad949kf> having looked at the dogecoin wallet code I think it could be merged back pretty easily
1441 2014-03-31 19:25:53 <ad949kf> for some reason they are sticking to an obsolete version of android though
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1443 2014-03-31 19:26:19 <sipa> ad949kf: you need to find transactions affecting that address
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1445 2014-03-31 19:26:38 <sipa> ad949kf: and doing a full rescan of history ever would put massive load on the server you're asking it from
1446 2014-03-31 19:26:47 <sipa> if it's likely just for a single transaction
1447 2014-03-31 19:26:48 <ad949kf> go on
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1450 2014-03-31 19:27:09 <sipa> imho, such single-use "sweep code" keys should include the txid crediting it
1451 2014-03-31 19:27:22 <sipa> so you can construct a sweep without even accessing the blockchain
1452 2014-03-31 19:27:38 <hearn> yeah but that ship sailed …..
1453 2014-03-31 19:28:07 <sipa> unfortunately
1454 2014-03-31 19:28:20 <ad949kf> how is the blockchain.info app able to sweep private keys
1455 2014-03-31 19:28:35 <sipa> i've suggested it to mike caldwell before, but he didn't like how much extra space it would require in his coins
1456 2014-03-31 19:28:37 <hearn> it has a full db of the entire block chain
1457 2014-03-31 19:28:41 <sipa> ad949kf: with a big-ass index
1458 2014-03-31 19:28:53 <hearn> ideally these qrcodes would be URLs to files containing the needed data
1459 2014-03-31 19:28:58 <hearn> but the self-contained nature is appealing ..
1460 2014-03-31 19:29:05 <gmaxwell> hearn: a sweep code could be added.. and then you could skip the server it has one.
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1473 2014-03-31 19:43:34 <hemry> hey
1474 2014-03-31 19:43:40 <hemry> anyone using kraken api?
1475 2014-03-31 19:44:33 <hemry> what's the deal with gaps on OHLC or Trades API?
1476 2014-03-31 19:45:13 <ad949kf> huge spread?
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1478 2014-03-31 19:46:04 <hemry> no, I mean data is missing entirely
1479 2014-03-31 19:46:13 <hemry> and those gaps can be as large as few hours
1480 2014-03-31 19:46:28 <hemry> and they happen too often to assume kraken was down at that time
1481 2014-03-31 19:46:58 <hemry> also data is missing across all API methods. If its missing on OHLC it is also missing on trades and so on
1482 2014-03-31 19:47:28 <hemry> shows up on a chart on their page, thought
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1486 2014-03-31 19:49:55 <daybyter> what language are you using, hemry?
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1490 2014-03-31 19:51:34 <hemry> daybyter: Java, but I don't see how that is important... you can see the gaps using browser..
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1492 2014-03-31 19:51:53 <daybyter> that was not my reason for asking.
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1494 2014-03-31 19:52:01 <daybyter> I'm using java, too.
1495 2014-03-31 19:52:21 <daybyter> and my tradelib lacks a kraken implementation.
1496 2014-03-31 19:52:33 <daybyter> maybe we could collaborate.
1497 2014-03-31 19:52:47 <daybyter> that was my interest.
1498 2014-03-31 19:53:05 ValicekB has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1499 2014-03-31 19:53:19 <hemry> daybyter: check this out https://github.com/timmolter/XChange
1500 2014-03-31 19:53:57 testnode9_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1501 2014-03-31 19:54:06 <daybyter> https://github.com/ReAzem/cryptocoin-tradelib
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1504 2014-03-31 19:55:33 <hemry> well I guess you'll have the same problem eventually
1505 2014-03-31 19:56:01 <daybyter> I'm not far enough, I guess...
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1552 2014-03-31 20:31:21 <Anduck> is there any developing going on about removing the limits of bitcoin network? like the 7tx/sec
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1554 2014-03-31 20:31:45 <Luke-Jr> Anduck: yes
1555 2014-03-31 20:32:03 <Anduck> how's it going? what has been developed?
1556 2014-03-31 20:33:26 <Anduck> or is there any link i can read about that
1557 2014-03-31 20:36:25 <Ademan> where does the 7tx/sec limitation come from anyways? Block size?
1558 2014-03-31 20:36:48 <Anduck> it's just a fixed limit to make blocks not too big
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1561 2014-03-31 20:40:56 <ad949kf> what happened to blockchain pruning too
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1627 2014-03-31 21:17:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ademan: yes, block size
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1629 2014-03-31 21:20:00 <Ademan> michagogo|cloud: I assume that if block size ever becomes prohibitive, that the maximum will just be raised?
1630 2014-03-31 21:20:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ademan: well, it's a hardfork
1631 2014-03-31 21:21:58 <Ademan> what are the alternatives? I suppose halving the block time, but that would also require a hard fork (and for whatever reason, the admittedly arbitrary 10min block time seems to be gospel, so nobody would go for that)
1632 2014-03-31 21:22:44 <Ademan> actually I don't know what validation regular nodes do regarding block time, maybe that only requires miners to play along?
1633 2014-03-31 21:22:52 <irvingprime> There has been some talk about using smart transaction fees to influence block size. Transactions paying little or nothing in fees would then wait longer, I expect.
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1635 2014-03-31 21:23:00 <gmaxwell> Ademan: there is basically nothing in bitcoin that requires only miners to play along.
1636 2014-03-31 21:23:34 <gmaxwell> irvingprime: miners already prioritize transactions based on fees per byte. The missing part there is just wallets being smarter on what fees they use.
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1638 2014-03-31 21:24:24 <Ademan> irvingprime: letting tx fees influence block size seems kind of dangerous, a malicious miner could inflate their blocks with untransmitted transactions which have high fees
1639 2014-03-31 21:25:06 <Ademan> I'm not sure how dangerous miners sending out large blocks is though, I always assumed that was the reason for the block size limit thoughg
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1645 2014-03-31 21:27:39 <gmaxwell> Ademan: there is a scaling / decenteralization tradeoff in a global network.
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1651 2014-03-31 21:29:48 <gmaxwell> Ademan: e.g. imagine if blocks were a gigabyte each, and you had to have gigabits of connectivity to keep up with the chain... there would be huge centeralization gains, and perhaps only some big corporate data centers could validate... if they wanted to inflate, perhaps they could. Thats a insane extreme example, but just to illustrate the point. On the other end of the spectrum if blocks are too tiny then while everyon can validate and ...
1652 2014-03-31 21:29:50 <Ademan> gmaxwell: are you saying the block size limit improves the decentralization of the network? If so I'm not sure I understand how, unless it has to do with propagation rate
1653 2014-03-31 21:29:54 <gmaxwell> ... the security is good, few can transact.
1654 2014-03-31 21:30:04 <Ademan> you can disregard that until I finish reading what you just wrote
1655 2014-03-31 21:30:18 <gmaxwell> There are a number of ways to address this conflict, obviously just striking a good balance is one way.
1656 2014-03-31 21:31:05 ValicekB has joined
1657 2014-03-31 21:31:21 blockQ has joined
1658 2014-03-31 21:31:27 <blockQ> hey, is anyone around that's familiar with Blockchain.info API?
1659 2014-03-31 21:31:28 <Burrito> There's also the factor of changing hardware/bandwidth specs to consider. The rate of growth of the network vs the rate of improvement in the hardware that (can) run it.
1660 2014-03-31 21:31:47 <Ademan> ah that makes sense, so it's actually more that (blocksize / time) which affects centralization.
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1662 2014-03-31 21:31:59 <sipa> Ademan: time?
1663 2014-03-31 21:32:16 <sipa> right, it's transactions/second itself that is the scalability problem
1664 2014-03-31 21:32:23 <sipa> the size of blocks is only the result of that
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1667 2014-03-31 21:32:35 <sipa> (though very frequent blocks has other negative side effects)
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1669 2014-03-31 21:32:49 <Luke-Jr> Ademan: alternatives: there could be multiple "side chains" for daily use which get recycled regularly, and payments occur on at across 2 of those depending on which the payer/recipient use
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1671 2014-03-31 21:33:11 <blockQ> Luke-JR do you ever use the Blockchain.info RPC API?
1672 2014-03-31 21:33:20 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: sipa: did anyone ever discuss pegging which can handle side-chain to side-chain transfers?
1673 2014-03-31 21:33:27 <Luke-Jr> blockQ: no, and I wouldn't recommend it
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1675 2014-03-31 21:33:39 <blockQ> Luke-Jr : ah, thanks anyways
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1678 2014-03-31 21:33:55 <Ademan> sipa: I read something claiming that orphan rates, while obviously inversely proportional to block time, don't increase linearly (5 minute block times do not produce 2x orphans of a 10 minute block time)
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1680 2014-03-31 21:34:53 <sipa> Ademan: then they're not inversely proportional
1681 2014-03-31 21:35:07 <sipa> (and indeed, that seems likely based on theory, though i don't have numbers)
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1683 2014-03-31 21:35:52 <gmaxwell> Ademan: it's very clearly not linear.
1684 2014-03-31 21:36:18 <Ademan> sipa: maybe I'm mistaken, but given X and Y, if increasing X decreases Y, I call that inversely proportional (whether or not the relationship is linear, quadratic, exponential or whatever)
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1686 2014-03-31 21:36:43 <kazcw> Ademan: that's negatively correlated; inversely proportional is more specific
1687 2014-03-31 21:36:43 <sipa> Ademan: no, that's just negatively correlated
1688 2014-03-31 21:36:50 <sipa> !hi5 kazcw
1689 2014-03-31 21:36:51 <gribble> Error: "hi5" is not a valid command.
1690 2014-03-31 21:37:18 <Ademan> hrm, I guess my life is a lie
1691 2014-03-31 21:37:32 <sipa> It's true-- you *were* adopted.
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1694 2014-03-31 21:38:22 <sipa> in theory, at least, it should be proportional to the CDF of an exponential distribution
1695 2014-03-31 21:38:38 <sipa> assuming every node is at constant distance in the network to every other
1696 2014-03-31 21:38:50 <sipa> (spherical cows, etc)
1697 2014-03-31 21:39:09 <Ademan> of uniform density I assume
1698 2014-03-31 21:39:17 <gmaxwell> and a universe that runs forever.
1699 2014-03-31 21:39:47 benwilber has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1702 2014-03-31 21:40:55 <gmaxwell> e.g. it's easy to setup an imaginary cases where the behavior is very ugly. Say a network of two nodes, of precisely equal hashrate,  which produce 1 block per nanosecond, spaced 1 light minute apart...
1703 2014-03-31 21:41:26 <uiop> how many lightminutes away is the moon?
1704 2014-03-31 21:41:36 * uiop knows sun is about 8
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1707 2014-03-31 21:42:24 <sipa> 384k km
1708 2014-03-31 21:42:28 <sipa> so about 1s
1709 2014-03-31 21:42:52 <uiop> how convenient!
1710 2014-03-31 21:43:08 <uiop> oh
1711 2014-03-31 21:43:14 <uiop> s/oh//
1712 2014-03-31 21:43:23 <gmaxwell> 2s for the round trip, if you google EME you can listen to recordings of ham operators communicating via moon bounce.
1713 2014-03-31 21:43:46 <uiop> oh, nm. i misread minutes and seconds. moon is 1 *second*, sun is 8 *minutes*..
1714 2014-03-31 21:43:56 * uiop is disoriented, ignore him
1715 2014-03-31 21:44:03 <sipa> so say you have 1% stale blocks given a certain block interval
1716 2014-03-31 21:44:14 <uiop> gmaxwell: hah, i might have to add that to my to-google list
1717 2014-03-31 21:44:34 <sipa> so say you have 1% stale blocks given a certain block interval, then you'd have 1.99% stale blocks with half that interval
1718 2014-03-31 21:44:47 <sipa> (given same spherical cow network)
1719 2014-03-31 21:45:08 <sipa> 9.5% with 1/10th of the interval
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1721 2014-03-31 21:45:53 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: interesting history to EME, it was borne out of trying to listen on cold-war enemies radio transmissions via moon reflection, nobody believed it was possible, until they tried it
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1724 2014-03-31 21:47:21 <gmaxwell> I have a set of books "A History of Engineering and Science in the Bell System" which are absolutely fasciating, one of the volumes deals mostly with radar and over-the-horizon-radar and such.
1725 2014-03-31 21:47:42 <uiop> the speed of light is such a inconvenience. e.g. satellite internet + anything interactive
1726 2014-03-31 21:47:42 <sipa> bell system?
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1728 2014-03-31 21:48:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: the US's now-dismantled quasi-monopoly telephone company.
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1730 2014-03-31 21:48:46 <sipa> ah, right
1731 2014-03-31 21:48:58 <sipa> bell labs
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1785 2014-03-31 22:26:31 <EricLarch> Hello. I'm working on BitID, an open protocol for Bitcoin authentication. I would like to get preliminary reviews and comments before implementing the first libraries https://github.com/bitid/bitid
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1798 2014-03-31 22:37:09 <andytoshi> EricLarch: i don't understand conceptually what bitcoin addresses have to do with identification. an address identifies a payment destination, not a person, and they are single-use
1799 2014-03-31 22:37:09 rdymac has joined
1800 2014-03-31 22:37:18 <andytoshi> also there is no such thing as a payment "from" an address
1801 2014-03-31 22:37:47 ValicekB has joined
1802 2014-03-31 22:37:54 <andytoshi> i have a doc on bitcoin address semantics https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/bitcoin-faq.pdf
1803 2014-03-31 22:38:27 <EricLarch> andytoshi : it is more authentication in fact. It's not about identity, but about quickly authenticate yourself by your Bitcoin address in a service
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1805 2014-03-31 22:38:49 <EricLarch> Thanks for the doc, I'll update my text accordingly
1806 2014-03-31 22:39:20 <Ademan> EricLarch: you're aware of nameid right?
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1809 2014-03-31 22:40:26 <andytoshi> ok, though bear in mind bitcoin addresses only have meaning between the time that a payment is requested and the time it is redeemed. so this is perhaps useful for services for which each session ends in the user being paid, but it does not really provide authentication
1810 2014-03-31 22:40:26 da2ce7 has joined
1811 2014-03-31 22:40:40 <EricLarch> Ademan, I'm not actually. I'll review and update in acknoledgment. Thank you
1812 2014-03-31 22:40:57 <samson_> Is this what enabled transaction malleability to happen in the first place : http://r6.ca/blog/20111119T211504Z.html
1813 2014-03-31 22:41:09 <samson_> Quote for the paranoid "OpenSSL uses DER when encoding DSA signatures. DER is a standardized encoding of structured data that is widely implemented. Integers are among the primitives that DER specifics how to encode. In particular, DER specifies that encoded integers are signed. However, when OpenSSL decodes signatures, it always decodes integers as if they are unsigned. In particular,
1814 2014-03-31 22:41:09 <samson_> OpenSSL will decode negative numbers as positive numbers."
1815 2014-03-31 22:41:16 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: Bitcoin addresses can also be identification, for better or worse :/
1816 2014-03-31 22:41:30 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: signmessage proves you receive with the address
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1818 2014-03-31 22:41:38 <EricLarch> I want to buy a PDF file on a e-commerce site but I don't want to create an account. I pay, get the the file, but how can I come back and download it again after ? That's the purpose of BitID
1819 2014-03-31 22:41:42 <sipa> samson_: it's one of the reasons
1820 2014-03-31 22:41:54 <samson_> sipa: Ok, thanks
1821 2014-03-31 22:42:00 <Luke-Jr> EricLarch: can you summarise what makes your thing different from standard Bitcoin authentication?
1822 2014-03-31 22:42:00 <airbreather> samson_, there are a few sources of malleability, see https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691
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1824 2014-03-31 22:42:09 <samson_> ok will check it out
1825 2014-03-31 22:42:18 <EricLarch> Luke-Jr : yes, the UX
1826 2014-03-31 22:42:20 <airbreather> not sure if there's a later version of that that's more clean
1827 2014-03-31 22:42:21 <edcba> EricLarch: they give you an unique url ?
1828 2014-03-31 22:42:21 <andytoshi> Luke-Jr: right, so it identifies you as a payment recipient, but it can't identify you beyond that
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1830 2014-03-31 22:42:43 <Luke-Jr> EricLarch: can I use it without your custom software? eg, just sign a well-formed message
1831 2014-03-31 22:42:47 <EricLarch> It is not identification, it is authentication. I need to be more explicit on that
1832 2014-03-31 22:42:55 <EricLarch> yes, you could use Bitcoin-QT
1833 2014-03-31 22:42:58 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: correct
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1835 2014-03-31 22:43:16 <sipa> samson_: that document is currently also available (with small changes, i think) as BIP62
1836 2014-03-31 22:43:17 <Ademan> EricLarch: oh, that sounds more like coloredcoins than nameid, you might still check out nameid but I think it's a different idea
1837 2014-03-31 22:43:27 <EricLarch> But the idea is to have an open standard so wallet can register to a bitid:// intent and propose a better UX
1838 2014-03-31 22:43:33 <Luke-Jr> EricLarch: ok, actually reading it
1839 2014-03-31 22:43:40 <andytoshi> ok, i get it, i think "bitID" is going to confuse people, you will really prefer changing the name to answering this same question 5 million times :)
1840 2014-03-31 22:43:55 <airbreather> sipa: thanks, I'll update my link
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1842 2014-03-31 22:44:11 <EricLarch> yes, you are right andytoshi, it creates confusion
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1844 2014-03-31 22:44:14 <Ademan> colored coins as smart property that is
1845 2014-03-31 22:44:16 <Luke-Jr> EricLarch: this makes no sense: "By monitoring transactions originating from the identified address, it is possible to add an application layer."
1846 2014-03-31 22:44:26 <EricLarch> At the end, I added some decentralized CA for "identification" though
1847 2014-03-31 22:44:29 <Luke-Jr> EricLarch: transactions never originate from addresses, only destine to them
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1850 2014-03-31 22:44:49 <Luke-Jr> "When registering with BitID, to validate the account and get full access, X satoshis must be sent to a validation address." <-- sounds centralised
1851 2014-03-31 22:44:56 <EricLarch> When you receive a payment, can't you "see" from which address it comes ?
1852 2014-03-31 22:44:58 <andytoshi> Luke-Jr: i passed him bitcoin-faq, he said he'd read it and update the site
1853 2014-03-31 22:44:59 <Ademan> EricLarch: decentralized CA for identification is very nameid-like, so, maybe it it is looking into after all :-)
1854 2014-03-31 22:45:01 <andytoshi> EricLarch: nope
1855 2014-03-31 22:45:06 <Luke-Jr> EricLarch: no, because it doesn't come from any address
1856 2014-03-31 22:45:30 <EricLarch> ok then some of my ideas are total garbage :)
1857 2014-03-31 22:45:33 <sipa> EricLarch: transactions are signed by the holder of the key to which the input coins were assigned
1858 2014-03-31 22:45:44 <sipa> EricLarch: which is not necessary their owner, or the sender of the coins
1859 2014-03-31 22:45:56 <EricLarch> yes, but I thought you could know the address as you can see it on the blockchain explorer
1860 2014-03-31 22:46:09 <sipa> that's misleading interpretation
1861 2014-03-31 22:46:13 <airbreather> Should "There is no from address" be more prominent in the topic?  Maybe repeated a few times :-D
1862 2014-03-31 22:46:21 <Luke-Jr> EricLarch: those websites are very misleading
1863 2014-03-31 22:46:32 <Luke-Jr> EricLarch: they're doing forensics which are unreliable
1864 2014-03-31 22:46:35 <sipa> for example with coinjoin transactions, you don't know which of the inputs came from the one who wanted to pay you
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1866 2014-03-31 22:46:43 <Luke-Jr> sipa: if any!
1867 2014-03-31 22:46:47 <EricLarch> ok I understand
1868 2014-03-31 22:46:49 <sipa> if any, indeed
1869 2014-03-31 22:46:58 <Ademan> sipa: how do you feel about colored coins? I believe it was you that said "I run a bitcoin node to support bitcoin as a financial platform, people using the network for other purposes are abusing my node" (last part is poorly paraphrased). Colored coins are lightweight but it's not strictly within the "purpose" of the network you want to participate in
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1871 2014-03-31 22:47:22 <sipa> Ademan: i believe that there are better solutions to the problem they are trying to solve
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1874 2014-03-31 22:48:32 <sipa> colored coins are not compatible with SPV operation, for one
1875 2014-03-31 22:48:48 <EricLarch> I'll go back to work more on my text. Thanks for the feedback !
1876 2014-03-31 22:49:10 <Ademan> true
1877 2014-03-31 22:49:14 <sipa> and yes, their burden shouldn't be carried by those who didn't sign up for it
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1879 2014-03-31 22:49:34 <Ademan> even though they're regular transactions effectively?
1880 2014-03-31 22:49:34 <sipa> though there are potential colored coin schems with barely any overhead
1881 2014-03-31 22:49:47 <sipa> except a bit more transactions
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1883 2014-03-31 22:50:05 <EricLarch> ecba : yes you get an unique URI to sign, with a verifiable syntax to avoid signing anything dangerous
1884 2014-03-31 22:50:10 <Luke-Jr> Ademan: the question becomes irrelevant when you consider there are better ways
1885 2014-03-31 22:50:47 <Luke-Jr> EricLarch: signed messages should ideally always be of a format similar to "YYYY-MM-DD[ time]: English description of contract"
1886 2014-03-31 22:51:26 <Ademan> Luke-Jr: fair enough, but what is better? I'd consider colored coins to be a digital token, it seems to map almost directly to the bitcoin model
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1889 2014-03-31 22:52:02 <Luke-Jr> Ademan: depends on what kind of coloured coin; although any of them could use a side-chain
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1891 2014-03-31 22:52:29 <Luke-Jr> Ademan: for stock-type assets, a private chain is ideal
1892 2014-03-31 22:52:54 <EricLarch> Luke-Jr : the wallet will parse the URI and expose the authentication request in a more formal way. You need to trust the wallet of course, but that's the base anyway
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1894 2014-03-31 22:53:40 <Ademan> what are the advantages of a side chain aside from only willing nodes participate? (you also lose the ability to have atomic trades, and cross chain trading is hard)
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1896 2014-03-31 22:54:22 <sipa> higher transaction rate, mostly
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1898 2014-03-31 22:54:44 <sipa> but i'm not convinced here
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1900 2014-03-31 22:55:06 <sipa> you always have to trust the issuer indeed
1901 2014-03-31 22:55:34 <sipa> but that doesn't mean you must let him b responsible for maintaining the ledger of its tokens
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1903 2014-03-31 22:56:34 <airbreather> It's all dependent on the specific use case... from my viewpoint, colored coins seem to be piggybacking on top of existing infrastructure to solve a problem instead of building out infrastructure
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1907 2014-03-31 22:57:24 <Luke-Jr> EricLarch: it's not compatible with current wallet software, if wallet software is forced to handle it specially
1908 2014-03-31 22:58:00 <Luke-Jr> EricLarch: also, there's a question whether you should be authenticating this way at all; the signed message should describe the *action* you want to validate, just not a "log in"
1909 2014-03-31 22:58:09 <Ademan> sipa: "you always have to trust the issuer" for in-bitcoin colored coins or side chain colored coins? It seems like whether or not you need to trust the issuer is independent of side-chain or bitcoin, but dependent on other things, like if the token requires the issuer to "honor" it at some point via dividends or whatever
1910 2014-03-31 22:58:27 <EricLarch> Luke-Jr : exactly. That's why I'm planning to contact authors of all major wallets and propose them to accept my pull requests (but first, there is need for community consensus about the protocol's idea)
1911 2014-03-31 22:58:27 <sipa> Ademan: yup, that is what i mean
1912 2014-03-31 22:58:33 <Luke-Jr> Ademan: side-chains can do atomic trades
1913 2014-03-31 22:58:57 <Luke-Jr> sipa: smart property need not have an issuer.
1914 2014-03-31 22:59:11 <Ademan> yeah that was really the only case I could think of that *didn't* require issuer trust
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1916 2014-03-31 22:59:19 <sipa> EricLarch: any mechanism that looks at who signs a transaction will be vulnerable to any privacy improvements in how bitcoin wallets operate
1917 2014-03-31 22:59:23 <Luke-Jr> EricLarch: better to not require a change when the current standards are sufficient
1918 2014-03-31 22:59:37 <EricLarch> Luke-Jr : many services are "pure bitcoin" and need my Bitcoin address (Betarigs, OTC trade services...). That's why I was thinking about login action only
1919 2014-03-31 22:59:37 <Ademan> and that's only if you can prove the smart property's auth is fair
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1921 2014-03-31 23:00:11 <sipa> EricLarch: in general, you also don't care about who paid, only what they paid for
1922 2014-03-31 23:00:15 <EricLarch> sipa : yes, it requires trust in the wallet. However the flow is simple and secure.
1923 2014-03-31 23:00:32 <sipa> EricLarch: let me go on for a sec
1924 2014-03-31 23:00:53 <sipa> EricLarch: forget the actual purpose for a second, and tell me if this matches what you want to accomplish
1925 2014-03-31 23:01:05 <Luke-Jr> sipa: consider mining rigs which only work signed by the owner of their coloured coin
1926 2014-03-31 23:01:31 <Ademan> Luke-Jr: regarding atomic trades on a side chain, I mean cross-chain-trading. If I want to trade a share of ASICMINER for 0.5BTC, if it's all in Bitcoin's chain, it's relatively easy. If it's on two different chains, it's rather difficult (to my knowledge, it is impossible to safely do while transaction malleability is still an issue)
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1929 2014-03-31 23:01:50 <sipa> EricLarch: i make an account on a site, buy a book, pay to a provided address,, download the book; i login later again and can download it again
1930 2014-03-31 23:02:00 <Luke-Jr> Ademan: side-chains are not supported by bitcoin yet; they make this safe
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1934 2014-03-31 23:02:01 <sipa> EricLarch: you want to accomplish the same, but without the logoc?
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1936 2014-03-31 23:02:12 <sipa> *login
1937 2014-03-31 23:02:14 <EricLarch> without having to create an account
1938 2014-03-31 23:02:18 <sipa> yup
1939 2014-03-31 23:02:21 <EricLarch> like "email / password"
1940 2014-03-31 23:02:29 <sipa> now imagine i don't have any bitcoins right now
1941 2014-03-31 23:02:35 <sipa> and my friend pays for me
1942 2014-03-31 23:02:56 <sipa> and i pay him back in $othercurrency
1943 2014-03-31 23:03:07 <sipa> from the pointmof view of the merchant, this is the same thing
1944 2014-03-31 23:03:07 <Ademan> Luke-Jr: oh, side chains as an actual feature of Bitcoin? I had assumed side chain referred to any other chain...
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1946 2014-03-31 23:03:17 <sipa> he doesn't care who paid
1947 2014-03-31 23:03:21 <sipa> only what was paid for
1948 2014-03-31 23:03:40 <EricLarch> sipa : if you identified yourself before with a bitcoin address you control, then you should have access
1949 2014-03-31 23:03:54 <Luke-Jr> Ademan: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04315.html
1950 2014-03-31 23:04:03 <Ademan> Luke-Jr: thanks
1951 2014-03-31 23:04:07 <EricLarch> my idea to have access control based on what you paid for is not correct
1952 2014-03-31 23:04:10 <sipa> EricLarch: what if i don't control any bitcoin address?
1953 2014-03-31 23:04:19 <Luke-Jr> sipa: you make one
1954 2014-03-31 23:04:20 <EricLarch> well then you cannot auth at all
1955 2014-03-31 23:04:36 <EricLarch> or you use login / password if the site has both
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1957 2014-03-31 23:04:41 <EricLarch> or you make one yes :)
1958 2014-03-31 23:05:13 <sipa> oh, i'm not saying that bitcoin addresses cannot be used as identities
1959 2014-03-31 23:05:46 <sipa> i'm saying that using "the payment arrived with a signed by address A, so address A gets access" is flawed
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1961 2014-03-31 23:06:10 <sipa> as any privacy improvement will obfuscate the link between signer and sender
1962 2014-03-31 23:06:16 <EricLarch> the origin of the idea if this : a physical locker controlled by your wallet. I couldn't find any way to auth yourself easily (UX wise) with a bitcoin address
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1964 2014-03-31 23:06:45 <EricLarch> sipa : I understand I was in the error with that
1965 2014-03-31 23:06:54 <sipa> ok!
1966 2014-03-31 23:07:44 <EricLarch> It's all about the UX and facility of usage. If you can login in one click on Bitcoin services, everyone benefit
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1969 2014-03-31 23:08:57 <Ademan> andytoshi: "As addresses are in 1-1 correspondence with signing keys, it is advisable to never reuse ad-
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1971 2014-03-31 23:09:08 <Ademan> bah, sorry, irssi and pasting not getting along
1972 2014-03-31 23:09:40 <Ademan> "[...]never reuse addresses" aren't there multiple signing keys potentially mapping to a single address?
1973 2014-03-31 23:09:53 <sipa> none computable
1974 2014-03-31 23:10:01 <sipa> in theory, yes
1975 2014-03-31 23:10:30 <sipa> but you would still lose the privacy advantage
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1977 2014-03-31 23:10:52 <EricLarch> As BitID generates some confusion (identification / authentication), would BitAuth be more suited ?
1978 2014-03-31 23:10:55 <Ademan> my point was just "1-1 correspondence" isn't correct is it?
1979 2014-03-31 23:11:08 <sipa> Ademan: in practice it is
1980 2014-03-31 23:11:14 <sipa> but in theory, indeed not
1981 2014-03-31 23:11:44 <Ademan> ok that's what I thought
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1987 2014-03-31 23:14:57 <andytoshi> well, if you use a weak form of injectivity which says "given a PPT adversary A and (x, y) ← A, f(x) = f(y) implies x = y" then i'm right
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1989 2014-03-31 23:15:39 <andytoshi> i should probably change that, because you're right that "1-1 correspondence" means set bijectivity, but i'm not sure what the appropriate language is and this gets the moral point across
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1994 2014-03-31 23:17:09 <Ademan> I like how you used the arrow for set membership but not for implies :-p
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1996 2014-03-31 23:17:56 <andytoshi> i don't know how to type the implies arrow ☺
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1998 2014-03-31 23:18:01 <Ademan> but yeah, it's probably not an issue for a FAQ, I just wanted to make sure 1. someone said something, just in case and 2. that I wasn't mistaken
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2012 2014-03-31 23:27:36 <EricLarch> Is this answer from StackExchange false, cause it says you can extract sender addresses from any transaction ? http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3896/how-to-findout-the-sender-of-a-transaction
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2016 2014-03-31 23:28:38 <EricLarch> it contradicts the "there is no such thing as a “sending address”." from andytoshi
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2023 2014-03-31 23:31:21 <sipa> EricLarch: you can find the addresses the consumed coins by a transaction were previously sent to
2024 2014-03-31 23:31:33 <gmaxwell> EricLarch: Transactions have no sending address, you can— however— analyize the blockchain and see who the coins being spent were previously sent to.  Imagine if packages that arrived in the mail never had a from but had serialnumber and you could find out where the post office previously sent them to.
2025 2014-03-31 23:31:45 <gmaxwell> Often that previous-to would be the same as the 'from' if there were a from, ... but not always.
2026 2014-03-31 23:31:50 <sipa> EricLarch: that is however not guaranteed to be possible with every transaction
2027 2014-03-31 23:32:05 <sipa> EricLarch: and it is also not guaranteed to be a key under control over the sender
2028 2014-03-31 23:32:23 <andytoshi> EricLarch: you are correct, the question is "how to find out the sender" and any answer is incorrect
2029 2014-03-31 23:32:35 <EricLarch> ok, so if you had an ecommerce, it would be dangerous to have ACL to digital goods based on these sender addresses ?
2030 2014-03-31 23:32:44 <sipa> yes
2031 2014-03-31 23:33:03 <sipa> tie a good with a receive address
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2033 2014-03-31 23:33:13 <sipa> when enough is paid to the receive address
2034 2014-03-31 23:33:16 <sipa> release it
2035 2014-03-31 23:33:37 <sipa> bitcoin transaction do not establish identities
2036 2014-03-31 23:33:47 <EricLarch> but if the user authenticated itself with a Bitcoin address, and that the transaction's sender addresses contains this address, wouldn't it work 100% of the time ?
2037 2014-03-31 23:33:51 ValicekB has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2038 2014-03-31 23:33:53 <gmaxwell> Basically you can interogate the blockchain to find out 'things' about the history of a coin, but you cannot ever know who triggered sending them to you via that data— usually when you want that you need to track who you gave payment addresses to.
2039 2014-03-31 23:34:26 <uiop> can you do a p2sh for the std p2addr ? (and thus elimate disclosure of target before it is spent?)
2040 2014-03-31 23:34:30 benten has joined
2041 2014-03-31 23:34:33 <sipa> EricLarch: it will fail for coinjoin, transactions using coins taken from complex scripts, or send by shared services
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2043 2014-03-31 23:34:43 <antephialtic> i think part of the problem is that bc.i popularizes the notion that bitcoin transactions send from address to address
2044 2014-03-31 23:35:01 <uiop> or said equiv, since noone can see through p2sh, the script that's hashed could be anything, right?
2045 2014-03-31 23:35:10 <sipa> EricLarch: and many other cases we haven't thought about probably
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2048 2014-03-31 23:35:51 <EricLarch> but if I pay from a normal personal wallet, it would work right ?
2049 2014-03-31 23:35:55 <sipa> EricLarch: relying in the property that sender == previous output address will limit us greatly in how wallets can wprk on the futurr
2050 2014-03-31 23:36:04 <sipa> please do not make that assumption
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2052 2014-03-31 23:36:15 <sipa> even if it were correct in 99.99% of the cases now
2053 2014-03-31 23:36:20 <gmaxwell> not just in the future, it fails for some many users today, who use things like shared wallets and coinjoin services.
2054 2014-03-31 23:36:27 <jcorgan> establish a new receiving address for each sales transaction, then you are guaranteed to know when payment has been made.
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2056 2014-03-31 23:36:32 <airbreather> relying on simplifying assumptions about the way Bitcoin works is a good way to lose a lot of money... remember that whole thing MtGox did where they assumed txids were not malleable?
2057 2014-03-31 23:36:43 <EricLarch> ok understood. That was nice from UX point of view : you pay a locker (physical), and you can unlock after with sending address
2058 2014-03-31 23:36:49 <andytoshi> EricLarch: how do you indicate to the receiver that you are sending from a "normal wallet" and why don't you just use that channel to communicate a receive address?
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2061 2014-03-31 23:38:11 <EricLarch> andytoshi : well, the receiver (the locker in my case) would request payment from a wallet and specify payment from shared wallet wouldn't work
2062 2014-03-31 23:38:26 <jakov> have the payer send a satoshi to another address that will be the return address
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2064 2014-03-31 23:38:59 <EricLarch> jakov : it complexifies the process, I was trying to find something extremely simple
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2066 2014-03-31 23:39:54 <jcorgan> things should be as simple as possible, but no simpler
2067 2014-03-31 23:40:10 <EricLarch> To solve this problem, I first need to authenticate with my address first, and pay the recipient on an address which is associated to my session
2068 2014-03-31 23:40:13 <gmaxwell> EricLarch: the normal process is that when making a sale you ask the user for a refund address and only after they give you one do you give them the address to pay. Then you are guarenteed to have a viable return address for the user.
2069 2014-03-31 23:40:33 <sipa> he doesn't need a refund address
2070 2014-03-31 23:40:37 <sipa> he wants an identity
2071 2014-03-31 23:40:49 <sipa> that one can authenticate witj
2072 2014-03-31 23:40:55 <sipa> i do not see how that can be done
2073 2014-03-31 23:40:57 <EricLarch> I want to be able to open my locker after having paid it
2074 2014-03-31 23:41:07 <sipa> bitcoin transactions do not establish an identity and cannot
2075 2014-03-31 23:41:13 <sipa> as that would be a privacy problem
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2077 2014-03-31 23:41:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: the procedure I described allows you to establish a key which can be used to access other things.
2078 2014-03-31 23:41:58 <sipa> right, imdeed
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2080 2014-03-31 23:42:04 benkay has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2081 2014-03-31 23:42:08 <sipa> you can just tell them your identity
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2083 2014-03-31 23:42:13 <sipa> before sale
2084 2014-03-31 23:42:19 <EricLarch> gmaxwell : yes, you can establish your address after payment, or before
2085 2014-03-31 23:42:41 <andytoshi> EricLarch: what you are describing is conceptually confused, you wouldn't use an invoice number for such a usecase so don't use a bitcoin address
2086 2014-03-31 23:42:51 <gmaxwell> before usually avoids problems where the user disconnects prematurely and then you can't figure out who the right user is.
2087 2014-03-31 23:43:06 <andytoshi> EricLarch: if you design a protocol which is inconsistent with the semantic meaning of bitcoin primitives, you will cause funds to be lost.
2088 2014-03-31 23:43:14 <EricLarch> andytoshi : the use case if paying a locker and open it securely
2089 2014-03-31 23:43:20 <uiop> gmaxwell: somewhat similar to an acid db carefully writing things to storage so that recovery is always possible
2090 2014-03-31 23:43:36 <uiop> (actually, exactly similar)
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2092 2014-03-31 23:44:00 <EricLarch> andytoshi : you are right about semantics, and I don't want to do something which is not aligned with Bitcoin conception
2093 2014-03-31 23:44:14 <uiop> *carefully _ordering_ writes to storage..
2094 2014-03-31 23:44:27 <EricLarch> so I'll implement two steps : 1. identifying yourself to the locker  2. pay the locker
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2096 2014-03-31 23:44:34 <EricLarch> and 3. indentify again to open
2097 2014-03-31 23:44:45 <EricLarch> (by identify I mean authentify)
2098 2014-03-31 23:45:01 <EricLarch> or authenticate ? don't know in English which word is best
2099 2014-03-31 23:46:12 <airbreather> I don't really see how this is better than a dedicated side-channel identification / authentication scheme
2100 2014-03-31 23:46:12 <Ademan> Is there a concise reference to the p2p messages supported by standard bitcoin nodes?
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2104 2014-03-31 23:46:51 <sipa> Ademan: hmm?
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2106 2014-03-31 23:47:23 <EricLarch> airbreather : please see https://github.com/bitid/bitid if you didn't see before ; it is all about UX
2107 2014-03-31 23:47:44 <Ademan> sipa: a list somewhere of "ping", "inv", "addr", "getdata" etc that describes the message data, and response data
2108 2014-03-31 23:47:56 <sipa> the wiki has part of it
2109 2014-03-31 23:48:07 <sipa> but perhaps not entirely up to date or correcvt
2110 2014-03-31 23:48:20 <uiop> EricLarch: ("authenticate". and "authenticate" implies "identify".)
2111 2014-03-31 23:48:21 <airbreather> Ademan: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification seems fairly good for at least the simple / common ones
2112 2014-03-31 23:48:32 <Ademan> airbreather, sipa thanks
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2115 2014-03-31 23:48:59 <EricLarch> uiop : the idea is to prove that you control the address you sent
2116 2014-03-31 23:49:05 <twizt> anyone use kraken web api b4?
2117 2014-03-31 23:49:13 <twizt> why is it so hard to pull the spot price
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2119 2014-03-31 23:49:22 <EricLarch> so it's not really about identity, but it means you still authenticate something
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2124 2014-03-31 23:50:26 <uiop> EricLarch: you authenticate the user over an encrypted channel, and now you have an authenticated+encrypted channel to exchange the btc address over
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2126 2014-03-31 23:51:24 <EricLarch> uiop : you mean the receiver address ? because user's address is included by design in the authentication
2127 2014-03-31 23:51:50 <airbreather> EricLarch: Understood, but once the idea of using the "from address" of the transaction got shot down, what advantage does BitID (or BitAuth if that's what you're going for now) give over other mechanisms?
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2129 2014-03-31 23:52:07 <EricLarch> what other mechanisms ?
2130 2014-03-31 23:52:16 <uiop> EricLarch: {encrypted = https://}, and {authenticated = "enter username and password"} (for example)
2131 2014-03-31 23:52:23 <EricLarch> only possibility is to manualy sign a challenge using my wallet, it's cumbersome
2132 2014-03-31 23:52:40 <airbreather> PGP
2133 2014-03-31 23:52:43 <airbreather> for example
2134 2014-03-31 23:53:16 <sipa> openid
2135 2014-03-31 23:53:28 <EricLarch> the BitAuth has nothing new, the difference is to have the wallets implementing it
2136 2014-03-31 23:53:53 <EricLarch> why use user/password or PGP when you already have a keypair in your wallet, and that you already have all precautions to secure it ?
2137 2014-03-31 23:54:05 <Ademan> EricLarch: nameid implements a firefox plugin which can automatically perform authentication (assuming your wallet is unlocked, and the user is prompted)
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2140 2014-03-31 23:54:26 <Ademan> internally all it does afaik is sign a challenge message, but it's handled for the user
2141 2014-03-31 23:54:26 <sipa> EricLarch: because transactions do not establish an identity
2142 2014-03-31 23:54:59 <sipa> EricLarch: so yes, you can use bitcoin keys for identification, but they have no advantage over any other procedure
2143 2014-03-31 23:55:03 <EricLarch> again it's not about identity, but a mechanism to establish ownership of an account
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2145 2014-03-31 23:55:17 <sipa> that identification
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2147 2014-03-31 23:55:43 <Ademan> EricLarch: I think you and sipa are on the same page about what you want to do, whether or not it's "identification" is just semantics
2148 2014-03-31 23:55:43 <sipa> you create an identity, buy something using that identity, and then grant access to anyone who cannidentify using it
2149 2014-03-31 23:55:48 <EricLarch> on a mining pool, why artificially request a username / password for instance ?
2150 2014-03-31 23:56:16 <EricLarch> my goal is fluidity
2151 2014-03-31 23:56:25 <sipa> i understanmd
2152 2014-03-31 23:56:29 <EricLarch> developers and users would gain
2153 2014-03-31 23:56:42 <sipa> and the difficult part is integration in an easy way
2154 2014-03-31 23:56:45 <EricLarch> it would be one reason more to have a wallet
2155 2014-03-31 23:56:55 <uiop> EricLarch: you need at least one time to have the user to give you a {PGP,BTC,..} public key over an authenticated+encrypted connection that is authenticated by another method than the {PGP,BTC,..} that you have not yet received
2156 2014-03-31 23:56:56 <sipa> but it doesn't hurt to think about it abstractly forst
2157 2014-03-31 23:57:06 <EricLarch> yes, it requires a consensus of the community to implement the mechanism in the popular wallets
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2159 2014-03-31 23:57:21 <sipa> no, it does not have anything to do with wallets
2160 2014-03-31 23:57:30 <sipa> yes, it could be implemented in a wallet
2161 2014-03-31 23:57:31 <airbreather> EricLarch: I was moderately intrigued by the idea of saying "you paid me, unsolicited, using address 1234, now you can access your stuff as long as you can prove you still own 1234", but when you remove "unsolicited", it seems like a lot of work to reinvent the wheel
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2163 2014-03-31 23:57:38 <sipa> but just as well in a browser
2164 2014-03-31 23:57:46 <airbreather> if that makes any sense and I'm not just rambling
2165 2014-03-31 23:58:31 <sipa> EricLarch: one way is to give a special "identity address" from your bitcoin wallet (which is not used for receiving mney) to the site when buying somethimg
2166 2014-03-31 23:58:33 <airbreather> grr... no, I'm rambling.  I'll try again...
2167 2014-03-31 23:58:56 <EricLarch> airbreather : if you can do your sale in one action instead of two, it's always good
2168 2014-03-31 23:59:05 <sipa> EricLarch: then after paying, you can use that address (perhaps through some uri scheme linked from the browser) to prove that you own that identity
2169 2014-03-31 23:59:16 <sipa> EricLarch: but that is in no way better thannsay, openid
2170 2014-03-31 23:59:44 <sipa> and having it integrated in bitcoin does not gain you anything