1 2014-04-01 00:00:00 <EricLarch> it gains because you already have a wallet on your phone
   2 2014-04-01 00:00:02 <sipa> because you cannot use the payment transaction itself tocestablish that identity
   3 2014-04-01 00:00:07 <EricLarch> and normal people don't know about openid
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   5 2014-04-01 00:00:12 <airbreather> the problem is you can't reliably do it in one action, so you need to give it the address you want to use for identity ahead of time, so the intriguing part is gone
   6 2014-04-01 00:00:14 <sipa> they don't need to
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   8 2014-04-01 00:00:40 <EricLarch> airbreather : yes, if sending address cannot be established at 100%
   9 2014-04-01 00:01:18 <EricLarch> but there are still real world application which could benefit from having easy auth incorporated in wallet
  10 2014-04-01 00:01:25 <sipa> EricLarch: i have a browser on my phone too
  11 2014-04-01 00:01:27 <airbreather> so we're left with just reinventing the wheel, piggybacking on top of Bitcoin addresses
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  13 2014-04-01 00:01:53 <sipa> yeah, you're trying to use bitcoin for something that can be better solved outside of it
  14 2014-04-01 00:02:15 * sipa afk
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  16 2014-04-01 00:02:20 <EricLarch> you would use a bitcoin auth only for bitcoin related sites
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  18 2014-04-01 00:02:45 <EricLarch> if the service doesn't care about your bitcoin address, I totally agree this wouldn't make sense
  19 2014-04-01 00:03:28 <airbreather> the Eligius pool, for instance, already has a similar auth / identification scheme
  20 2014-04-01 00:03:52 <EricLarch> you need to copy paste and sign ?
  21 2014-04-01 00:03:53 <airbreather> I guess the advantage might be to standardize the format for doing that
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  23 2014-04-01 00:04:23 <uiop> airbreather: on thing that bitcoin does conveniently do though, is give a large number of people (who wouldn't otherwise have them) pub/priv keypairs that are (can) also connected to their identities
  24 2014-04-01 00:04:30 <EricLarch> yes, that's exactly the idea. And to have wallets register the bitid:// or whatever to have a smooth UX
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  26 2014-04-01 00:05:16 <uiop> airbreather: good luck trying to get a large percentage of people PGP keypairs... but bitcoin could very well "solve" this problem (in a sense)
  27 2014-04-01 00:05:32 <uiop> s/PGP/BTC/ encrypted email!
  28 2014-04-01 00:05:48 <uiop> (or just signed email)
  29 2014-04-01 00:06:25 <airbreather> addresses are poor UX, correct?  We want them to be much less prominent in the interface?
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  31 2014-04-01 00:06:51 <uiop> heh, and no more boring "---PGP PUBLIC KEY BLAH---", you just need to say "here's my addr wouldn't mind if you randomly sent money here to kthx"
  32 2014-04-01 00:07:05 <EricLarch> yes, that's why scanning a QRcode is an efficient way to securely create an account and giving your btc address in the same time
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  34 2014-04-01 00:07:32 <antephialtic> airbreather: see bip70
  35 2014-04-01 00:08:28 <airbreather> That's something I'm going to have to read eventually...
  36 2014-04-01 00:08:32 <antephialtic> QRcodes are kind of a hack. I like bitcoin:// url's better for online purchases
  37 2014-04-01 00:08:53 <airbreather> for now, if we want to hide addresses behind a semantic layer, what's to stop us from hiding PGP keypairs behind that same layer?
  38 2014-04-01 00:08:54 <EricLarch> qrcode is just a representation of the bitcoin://
  39 2014-04-01 00:08:59 <uiop> QR is nice when you're in the midst of iphone fondling though
  40 2014-04-01 00:09:16 <antephialtic> yes, QR code is nice for in person at the moment. Future is bip70 over bluetooth
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  42 2014-04-01 00:09:22 <vetch> antephialtic: there's no // in a bitcoin: URI.
  43 2014-04-01 00:09:23 ValicekB has joined
  44 2014-04-01 00:09:33 <antephialtic> or perhaps bip70 over NFC. vetch: thanks, you are correct
  45 2014-04-01 00:09:34 <uiop> actually, it's also the *worst* when you pull up the QR code *on* you iphone..
  46 2014-04-01 00:09:52 <antephialtic> Jimmy Wales: QR codes are robot barf
  47 2014-04-01 00:09:53 <uiop> when that happens i usually just sigh
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  49 2014-04-01 00:09:58 <EricLarch> if the wallet registered the URI schema, then clicking on it would work
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  53 2014-04-01 00:12:38 <EricLarch> Thanks for the discussion. Going to bed. good night all :)
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 137 2014-04-01 01:23:45 <melik> hi there guys
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 209 2014-04-01 02:31:39 <shamoon> what does the d in bitcoind stand for?
 210 2014-04-01 02:31:52 <phantomcircuit> daemon
 211 2014-04-01 02:31:57 <shamoon> thanks!
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 221 2014-04-01 02:43:20 <antephialtic> delicious
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 225 2014-04-01 02:44:13 <gmaxwell> ::sigh:: https://multibit.org/en/help/v0.5/help_support_sentBitcoinFromMultibitButTheyAreStuck.html "There are lots of tiny inputs (under 5432 satoshis) in your wallet and the transaction fires the anti-spam rules"
 226 2014-04-01 02:44:26 <gmaxwell> would actually be nice if other wallet developers weren't confused about this.
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 421 2014-04-01 05:42:18 <olalonde> at which point are blocks written to disk? are they written as soon as they arrive?
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 424 2014-04-01 05:43:33 <olalonde> are orphan blocks / alt chains written to disk?
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 426 2014-04-01 05:44:49 <dkog> olalonde: are you asking about bitcoind?
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 428 2014-04-01 05:45:29 <olalonde> dkog: yes
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 444 2014-04-01 05:59:07 <olalonde> why are most hashes in bitcoin computed twice?
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 453 2014-04-01 06:06:01 <dkog> preimage resistance
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 455 2014-04-01 06:06:27 <dkog> should a flaw be found in SHA2
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 457 2014-04-01 06:07:09 <dkog> though in theory it might introduce a flaw itself
 458 2014-04-01 06:07:16 <olalonde> haha
 459 2014-04-01 06:07:25 <olalonde> ok
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 657 2014-04-01 08:32:12 <wumpus> orphans are not written to disk, altchains are
 658 2014-04-01 08:33:06 <wumpus> try -printblocktree to print the whole block tree  (be sure to use master, as it was broken in 0.9 with everything on one line...)
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 865 2014-04-01 11:15:04 <shadders> if a standard bitcoin core client has a transaction in mempool then it sees a mutated version of the same transaction will it accept it into the mempool and evict the original or is it first come first served?
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 867 2014-04-01 11:16:33 <t7> a nasty implementation will go for the highest tx fee
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 870 2014-04-01 11:19:17 <shadders> t7: I mean the standard untweaked bitcoin core implementation
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 872 2014-04-01 11:20:02 <t7> i think it takes the oldest (received)
 873 2014-04-01 11:20:05 <vetch> a mutated transaction would be a double spend. first in first served in my understanding.
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 876 2014-04-01 11:21:45 <CheckDavid> http://www.facebook.com/groups/180708015327157/ <= learn python.org Facebook group deletes and bans open source bitcoin related discussions and then pretends not to know what is happening.
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 984 2014-04-01 12:37:47 <ematiu> Hello, quick question, Can 'decodescript' can be used for ScriptSig?
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1028 2014-04-01 12:59:05 <gavinandresen> Request for "nacked ACKers" (people who just ACK pull requests with no other comment): can you add a LITTLE more context:  e.g. "ACK, like the idea" or "ACK, I've been running this patch and it works great" or "ACK, reviewed all the code and then spent two hours trying to break it and I couldn't."
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1049 2014-04-01 13:09:17 <wumpus> hm I generally only do that for very trivial pulls (ie, those that change style, or add tests, or documentation)
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1052 2014-04-01 13:10:08 <wumpus> but indeed for more complex changes it's not really useful
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1056 2014-04-01 13:11:32 <wumpus> ack, ack, ack
1057 2014-04-01 13:11:45 * SomeoneWeird acks wumpus 
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1062 2014-04-01 13:13:27 <gavinandresen> wumpus: ACK on trivial pulls.  Although if they are that trivial you should just pull them immediately....
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1106 2014-04-01 13:30:48 <wumpus> seems no one at all is interested in the RPC bind patch
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1114 2014-04-01 13:35:31 <speed-> http://www.coindesk.com/ceo-bitcoin-officially-bans-china/
1115 2014-04-01 13:35:33 <speed-> fot the lols :)
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1132 2014-04-01 13:42:38 * wumpus sighs at all of rebroad's logging changes pulles
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1186 2014-04-01 14:10:30 <wumpus> ERROR: The certificate of `www.openssl.org' is not trusted.  when trying to wget openssl sources on Debian 7.4... fantastic
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1195 2014-04-01 14:12:45 <hearn> wumpus: haha
1196 2014-04-01 14:12:46 <arubi> apt-get install ca-certificates?
1197 2014-04-01 14:13:07 <hearn> they’re using globalsign, hardly obscure
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1217 2014-04-01 14:20:48 <wumpus> arubi: already checked, I have ca-certificates
1218 2014-04-01 14:22:53 <arubi> wumpus, oh, weird. maybe the ca-certificates package is old in 7.4
1219 2014-04-01 14:23:08 <wumpus> well if someone is MITMing me: you suck, at least do it properly so I don't notice 
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1221 2014-04-01 14:23:10 <arubi> I'm on sid, no problem with wget from https openssl
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1223 2014-04-01 14:24:19 <arubi> version 20140223 is what I have
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1234 2014-04-01 14:27:18 <wumpus> 20130119 ... so it's likely a version issue. I understand that Debian Stable is intentionally conservative with versions, but man, keeping certificates up to date would make sense...
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1240 2014-04-01 14:29:40 <arubi> yea, I can't imagine a reason to hold back certs..
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1275 2014-04-01 14:54:52 <soycarozo> what is bitcoin ????
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1278 2014-04-01 14:55:33 <soycarozo> bitcoin is nsa shit
1279 2014-04-01 14:55:46 <wumpus> take that to #bitcoin please
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1286 2014-04-01 14:57:16 <soycarozo> btc culture is full of ignorants
1287 2014-04-01 14:57:50 <soycarozo> imho
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1292 2014-04-01 15:00:23 <soycarozo> ok, sorry for the intervention, bye
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1317 2014-04-01 15:20:07 <Joric> is it somehow possible to issue physical coins with a 100% guarantee issuer won't redeem them himself?
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1319 2014-04-01 15:20:25 <Joric> split key? while ordering?
1320 2014-04-01 15:21:39 <helo> Joric: still have to scratch off the key to ensure it is actually there and correct
1321 2014-04-01 15:22:04 <Joric> won't be really that physical :( i mean they would need an additional secret anyway
1322 2014-04-01 15:22:29 <Joric> guess it's not solvable
1323 2014-04-01 15:23:40 <christophe> 2 Manufacturers that each make a half of the coin? Buyer combines them. Each side is a half of a 2-of-2.
1324 2014-04-01 15:24:15 <christophe> They can make invalid coins, of course, but to steal funds they must cooperate.
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1327 2014-04-01 15:25:20 <jgarzik> Well, that's silly
1328 2014-04-01 15:25:32 <jgarzik> bitcoin-cli wants a server, for RPC "decoderawtransaction"
1329 2014-04-01 15:25:43 <jgarzik> bitcoin-cli can do a bunch of those RPCs without needing any server.
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1346 2014-04-01 15:34:59 <maaku> helo: yes, but you can get some assurance against that buy buying X more than you need and checking those
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1349 2014-04-01 15:36:28 <helo> oh yeah, they're not preloaded any longer, so that would help
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1369 2014-04-01 16:08:14 PAPAPA is now known as PAPA___
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1374 2014-04-01 16:11:31 <Urushiol> I realize this isn't a support channel for software but it seems a reasonable place to ask the question and maybe get direction on where to go to ask. I downloaded carbonwallet for mac and it shows the graphic indication that it has been run but then no GUI is opened.
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1384 2014-04-01 16:15:19 wallet421 is now known as wallet42
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1390 2014-04-01 16:18:04 <wumpus> never even heard of that wallet
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1393 2014-04-01 16:18:54 <Joric> wumpus, it's basically electrum, i guess, they use the same seed
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1395 2014-04-01 16:19:53 <Joric> yep, same addresses
1396 2014-04-01 16:20:00 <Joric> wonder if they use same servers
1397 2014-04-01 16:21:37 <Joric> looks like download doesn't work %) http://carbonwallet.com
1398 2014-04-01 16:21:46 <Joric> also music
1399 2014-04-01 16:23:05 <Joric> also no ssl on their site at all
1400 2014-04-01 16:23:13 <wumpus> would have been a nice April 1 spoof 'Bitcoin QT wallet adds music' :p
1401 2014-04-01 16:23:16 aegis has joined
1402 2014-04-01 16:24:05 <wumpus> lack of SSL is fishy these days
1403 2014-04-01 16:24:10 <Joric> i'd like something like in apple commercials
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1407 2014-04-01 16:25:14 <Joric> like Yael Naim - New Soul used for macbook air
1408 2014-04-01 16:25:25 <Joric> carbonwallet sounds about the same
1409 2014-04-01 16:26:12 <Joric> I'm a new soul came to this strange world, hoping I could learn a bit about how to give and take!
1410 2014-04-01 16:26:17 <Joric> La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la...
1411 2014-04-01 16:26:26 <Joric> finding myself making every possible mistake
1412 2014-04-01 16:26:39 <wumpus> We’ve now added instawallet style URL’s to CarbonWallet, so you can now open a wallet as easy as. http://carbonwallet.com/#tell-thick-yeah-friend-mock-paint-curse-emotion-silent-salty-flood-gentle
1413 2014-04-01 16:26:48 <wumpus> that sounds like a really bad idea
1414 2014-04-01 16:28:01 <wumpus> URLs get indexed in all kinds of ways by browsers and search engines, please don't store secrets in them
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1427 2014-04-01 16:45:16 <maaku> wumpus: not to mention that browsers often send them to your search engine as you are typing them
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1431 2014-04-01 16:50:21 <wumpus> yeah...
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1460 2014-04-01 17:09:44 <rudrigorc2> .j btcbr
1461 2014-04-01 17:09:51 <JackH> does anyone know of any open source Bitcoin gateway applications for reference anywhere?
1462 2014-04-01 17:10:14 <JackH> ie. Bitpay's implementation towards the Bitcoin protocol
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1485 2014-04-01 17:22:21 <willermo> Hello everybody
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1488 2014-04-01 17:23:15 <willermo> i need a litle help, how can i list all the received payments by one address with bitcoind rpc ??
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1507 2014-04-01 17:32:16 <shamoon> do i need to have txindex on to run "gettransaction"?
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1552 2014-04-01 18:17:43 <willermo> i need a litle help, how can i list all the received payments by one address with bitcoind rpc ??
1553 2014-04-01 18:18:00 <kazcw> listrecievedbyaddress
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1556 2014-04-01 18:21:08 <willermo> kazcw: listrecievedbyaddress list recived by all the addresses, i just need to list received payments on one specific address, sorry for my bad english
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1560 2014-04-01 18:23:36 <kazcw> setaccount / listreceivedbyaccount
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1584 2014-04-01 18:44:39 <saizai> FYI: My PAC’s Bitcoin AOR (AO 2014-02) is being moved from this Thursday to probably April 23, with a first draft AO to be released *maybe* next week.
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1599 2014-04-01 18:55:50 <Diablo-D3> http://app.messages.seagate.com/e/es?s=261&e=304820&elq=35ad4a43ddd141e6a568d623ce442fce
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1602 2014-04-01 18:56:18 <amiller> hey when did the two new DNS seeds get added?
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1604 2014-04-01 18:56:45 <amiller> i'm a little surprised that jgarzik changed his node's behavior from what it was previously, and two new nodes were added, but i can't find the discussion that led to this
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1606 2014-04-01 18:57:07 <amiller> also that Luke-Jr's was down for a while and no one seemed to notice
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1610 2014-04-01 18:57:31 <amiller> i brought this up a while ago and i think everyone agreed that there should be a pretyt high degree of transparency about how the seeders work? maybe i'm just not looking in the right place and the discussion is in the mailing list somewhere...
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1614 2014-04-01 18:58:17 <gmaxwell> amiller: hm? I don't agree. (I mean transparency is good and we should have it) but it shouldn't be important.
1615 2014-04-01 18:58:23 <amiller> anyway the main specific thing i want to ask is, the two newest seeds, seed.bitnodes.io and seed.bitcoinstats.com, what is their policy? are they just running sipa's bitcoin-seeder code?
1616 2014-04-01 18:58:34 <gmaxwell> Because communication with the seeders is in _no_ way authenticated you really have no idea who you're talking to there.
1617 2014-04-01 18:58:57 <amiller> aren't those somewhat important to understanding network formation?
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1621 2014-04-01 18:59:34 <gmaxwell> I somehow completely unaware of seed.bitcoinstats.com. But seed.bitnodes.io was added via a pull req that stayed open for a few weeks and had some pretty extensive discussion.
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1623 2014-04-01 19:00:10 <gmaxwell> amiller: no, they shouldn't be— except in so far as a newly started node needs to reach at least one seed which connects them to the honest network.
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1626 2014-04-01 19:01:11 <rdbell> coreyclark: Did you get my email earlier?
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1630 2014-04-01 19:03:38 <amiller> here's the pull request discussion for adding seed.bitnodes.io (just in case this helps when searching these chat logs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3875
1631 2014-04-01 19:05:03 <amiller> ok seed.bitnodes.io uses completely different software, but it's well described in that discussion.
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1633 2014-04-01 19:06:05 <amiller> oh wow, bitcoinstats.com is run by christian decker,  the bitcoin researcher from zurich
1634 2014-04-01 19:06:16 <amiller> cdecker, hi!
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1709 2014-04-01 20:13:16 <maaku> phishing attempt on the mailing list?
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1712 2014-04-01 20:14:34 <sipa> githubb.com -> this domain is for sale
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1719 2014-04-01 20:18:43 <gmaxwell> sufficiently advanced phishing request is indistinguishable from an april fools joke
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1727 2014-04-01 20:22:13 * uiop wonders if the converse also holds
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1729 2014-04-01 20:22:46 <uiop> that could be like a meme-template a la chuck norris or something
1730 2014-04-01 20:22:56 <sipa> phishing requests which are distinguishable from april fools jokes are insufficiently advanced
1731 2014-04-01 20:23:03 <uiop> "a sufficiently advanced  april fools joke is indistinguishable from ..."
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1734 2014-04-01 20:24:14 <uiop> sipa: you win 5 creative-use-of-negation points
1735 2014-04-01 20:25:06 <uiop> they will be redeemable never, or not
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1741 2014-04-01 20:27:12 <Luke-Jr> sipa forgot to use NaN
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1748 2014-04-01 20:31:52 <uiop> heh, !(0/0) ICE's gcc
1749 2014-04-01 20:31:58 <uiop> (internal compiler error)
1750 2014-04-01 20:32:05 <sipa> Luke-Jr: dang
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1767 2014-04-01 20:48:55 <wyager> For anyone who’s interested in BIP32, I made this little script that lets you play around with pubkey-based address generation. https://github.com/wyager/Bitcoin-HD-wallet-generator
1768 2014-04-01 20:50:24 <Luke-Jr> wyager: like pycoin?
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1772 2014-04-01 20:52:30 <wyager> Yeah, but it does nothing except BIP32 stuff
1773 2014-04-01 20:52:38 <wyager> Easy to read through
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1810 2014-04-01 21:12:10 <bedeho> can anyone recommend some coolheaded yet honest text on the scalability issues of BitCoin? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability seems to give an awfully rosy picture
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1812 2014-04-01 21:15:18 <Ry4an> bedeho: The only thing anyone can say with certainty is that there's a willingness to modify the protocol such that the scalability always meets demand.  Anything else you'll find is outdated,  irrelevant, misinformed, or some combinatino of the three.
1813 2014-04-01 21:15:50 <sipa> scalability meets demand? hell no
1814 2014-04-01 21:15:58 <bedeho> lol
1815 2014-04-01 21:16:13 <sipa> we can scale as much as verification allows
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1817 2014-04-01 21:16:38 <sipa> which is inevitably a compromise between transaction rate and verifiability
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1819 2014-04-01 21:17:08 <sipa> there's little reason to tune things down so much that you can run validation on your pocket calculator
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1821 2014-04-01 21:17:31 <sipa> but probably also little reason to scale things up so only a few datacenters in the world can keep up
1822 2014-04-01 21:17:53 <sipa> where that compromise should lie in practice is a hard question, of course
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1824 2014-04-01 21:18:10 <bedeho> verifiability = checking inputs are inspent and sigScript has signature? isnt that quite cheap?
1825 2014-04-01 21:18:38 <sipa> it also includes bandwidth to distribute the data
1826 2014-04-01 21:18:41 <sipa> and storage to maintain
1827 2014-04-01 21:18:58 <bedeho> I see
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1830 2014-04-01 21:19:30 <jtimon> also, bedeho it may be cheap for 1 transaction, probably not for 10 million transactions per second
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1832 2014-04-01 21:19:51 <jtimon> as sipa explains is a tradeoff between scale and centralization
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1836 2014-04-01 21:20:09 <sipa> well, both scalability and verifiability are a centralization risk
1837 2014-04-01 21:20:11 <bedeho> ok
1838 2014-04-01 21:20:18 <sipa> if nobody can create transactions, we have a problem
1839 2014-04-01 21:20:27 <sipa> if nobody can verify transactions, we also have a problem
1840 2014-04-01 21:20:36 <Ry4an> It's like asking about the scalability of TCP in the 70s,  You could have gotten some very smart people to speculate with answers ranging from "doomed" to "infinite" but trying to look more than a year ahead at any point would've been folly, and _no one_ would have reasonably predicted v4 address exhaustion.
1841 2014-04-01 21:20:57 <bedeho> doesnt the "pruning" idea from the paper solve storage?
1842 2014-04-01 21:21:02 <sipa> no
1843 2014-04-01 21:21:04 <bedeho> Ry4an: I get you, its hard to say
1844 2014-04-01 21:21:20 <sipa> new full nodes starting up need to see history, unless they step away from the zero trust model
1845 2014-04-01 21:21:38 <sipa> that is the only thing the full history is needed for though
1846 2014-04-01 21:21:53 <bedeho> I see
1847 2014-04-01 21:21:56 <sipa> 0.8 uses a design where the block data isn't used during validation anymore
1848 2014-04-01 21:22:04 <BCB> does the block separator have a values other then separating blocks, and how/why was that value chosen?
1849 2014-04-01 21:22:20 <sipa> BCB: you mean in the blk*.dat file format?
1850 2014-04-01 21:22:33 <BCB> i mean 0f9beb4d9d
1851 2014-04-01 21:22:36 <jtimon> you could have several levels of trust, with committed utxos maybe "2 years in the past security level" is enough for most people
1852 2014-04-01 21:22:58 <sipa> BCB: ah, the network magic?
1853 2014-04-01 21:22:59 <BCB> sipa: sorry : f9beb4d9
1854 2014-04-01 21:23:03 <BCB> yes
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1856 2014-04-01 21:23:28 <BCB> does that have a binary or decimal value of significance?
1857 2014-04-01 21:23:39 <sipa> from the source code:
1858 2014-04-01 21:23:41 <sipa>         // The message start string is designed to be unlikely to occur in normal data.
1859 2014-04-01 21:23:45 <sipa>         // The characters are rarely used upper ASCII, not valid as UTF-8, and produce
1860 2014-04-01 21:23:48 <sipa>         // a large 4-byte int at any alignment.
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1862 2014-04-01 21:24:36 <BCB> sipa: Thank you.  What file is that in
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1864 2014-04-01 21:24:41 <sipa> chainparams.cpp
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1866 2014-04-01 21:25:04 <sipa> jtimon: yeah, utxo commitments will allow for a few more interesting levels in between SPV and full
1867 2014-04-01 21:25:10 <maaku> BCB: in reality it is an arbitrary value however. any random string would have done
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1870 2014-04-01 21:25:42 <maaku> sipa: why is nVersion included in CCoins?
1871 2014-04-01 21:25:57 <sipa> maaku: because in the future perhaps validation rules depend on transaction version
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1874 2014-04-01 21:26:43 <sipa> maaku: it would likely need to become sort of an 'effective version' value instead
1875 2014-04-01 21:26:59 <sipa> like BIP32 v3 transactions not inside a v3 block would be v1
1876 2014-04-01 21:27:00 <maaku> but CCoins is only used post-validation, right?
1877 2014-04-01 21:27:06 <sipa> hmm?
1878 2014-04-01 21:27:16 <BCB> is the source code really 17MB ??
1879 2014-04-01 21:27:21 <maaku> I mean validation is always done on instance of CTransaction
1880 2014-04-01 21:27:36 <maaku> and CCoins is just used to hold the unspent outputs
1881 2014-04-01 21:27:43 <sipa> maaku: CTransaction for the spending transaction, CCoins for the output being spent
1882 2014-04-01 21:27:54 <sipa> maaku: the rules could depend on the version that created the outputs being spent
1883 2014-04-01 21:28:27 <maaku> hrm I see. is there a known use case for that, even an outlandish one?
1884 2014-04-01 21:28:33 <sipa> no
1885 2014-04-01 21:28:55 <sipa> maybe i had one in mind at the time
1886 2014-04-01 21:29:16 <sipa> but i think it was a conservative choice, assuming it could depend on either
1887 2014-04-01 21:29:28 <sipa> BCB: i doubt that!
1888 2014-04-01 21:30:34 <BCB> sipa: did you see the St Louis fed report??  "About 17 MB of source code (500 phone books)."
1889 2014-04-01 21:30:37 <maaku> the context: I'm going to benchmark indexing CCoins vs indexing CCoin (singular), and dropping the version field saves a little bit of space
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1891 2014-04-01 21:30:45 <maaku> although with VarInt encoding, I guess it's just a byte per output
1892 2014-04-01 21:31:00 <bedeho> sipa: when you say, block info is not used for validation anymore, do you mean that all unspent outputs are kept in memory when validating new transactions? while chain of old blocks just remains on disk?
1893 2014-04-01 21:31:13 <maaku> likewise, also dropping fCoinbase because only mature coinbases make it into the index
1894 2014-04-01 21:31:27 <sipa> maaku: ok
1895 2014-04-01 21:31:35 <sipa> bedeho: there is just a separate database with copies of the unspent outputs
1896 2014-04-01 21:32:06 <bedeho> ok
1897 2014-04-01 21:32:14 <sipa> bedeho: it's not necessarily in memory (though it is heavily cached)
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1908 2014-04-01 21:42:16 <bedeho> sipa: so the only storage issue for huge blocks is new full nodes. So what if at every Nth block, everyone agrees upon a common UTXO set, so even if a super node can demonstrate some longer chain giving contradictory UTXO, no one accepts this.
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1910 2014-04-01 21:42:43 <bedeho> This way, perhaps you dont need super nodes?
1911 2014-04-01 21:42:46 <sipa> bedeho: how does "everyone agree" ?
1912 2014-04-01 21:42:54 <sipa> bedeho: without a blockchain?
1913 2014-04-01 21:43:51 <bedeho> good question I guess, how does one agree about genesis block?
1914 2014-04-01 21:44:33 <sipa> by it being hardcoded in the software, and everyone to follow the rules implemented by that software
1915 2014-04-01 21:44:59 <sipa> but just adding "new genesis blocks" is a centralization risk - it a power developers shouldn't have, as it can be used to force someone to accept a particular chain
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1917 2014-04-01 21:45:42 <sipa> bedeho: however, there is a possibility, and this is the type of in-between-security that jtimon referred to before
1918 2014-04-01 21:45:47 <sipa> bedeho: called UTXO commitments
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1920 2014-04-01 21:46:03 <sipa> bedeho: where every block contains a hash of the entire UTXO set at that point
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1922 2014-04-01 21:46:37 <sipa> bedeho: now you can validate the block headers, check the proof of work in it, and use SPV level validation for history
1923 2014-04-01 21:46:54 <sipa> bedeho: and then request a full node to give you their UTXO set, and you can compare its hash with what the chain commits to
1924 2014-04-01 21:47:31 <sipa> so you get a full node that doesn't have 0-trust security in history anymore, but it can validate everything, and needs far less resources to sync
1925 2014-04-01 21:48:35 <sipa> maaku's been working on this
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1927 2014-04-01 21:50:38 <bedeho> sipa: you say no 0-trust because someone could come up with a fake UTXO set with matching hash?
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1933 2014-04-01 21:52:10 <maaku> also, it can work backwards validating, until it eventually reaches the genesis block
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1938 2014-04-01 21:52:28 <maaku> bedeho: it starts off with SPV level of security - it trusts the most-work chain
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1940 2014-04-01 21:52:54 <maaku> but that chain may be invalid - it won't know until it does a full validation itself
1941 2014-04-01 21:53:04 <bedeho> maaku: ok, is there something I can read on this?
1942 2014-04-01 21:53:16 <bedeho> bip?
1943 2014-04-01 21:53:29 <sipa> bedeho: do you understand the difference between SPV security and fullnode/zerotrust?
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1945 2014-04-01 21:54:38 <bedeho> sipa: I thought so, maybe not. SPV = trust membership of tx in block if block is deep and someone can show you merkle branch?, fullnode =  trust tx membership in block by tracing all inputs all the way back to genesis?
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1952 2014-04-01 21:55:22 <maaku> bedeho: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=21995.0
1953 2014-04-01 21:55:27 <maaku> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101734.0
1954 2014-04-01 21:55:41 <sipa> bedeho: basically, indeed
1955 2014-04-01 21:56:10 <sipa> bedeho: SPV == trust miners to only work on valid blocks
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1999 2014-04-01 21:56:56 <sipa> bedeho: fullnode == verify every single rule yourself, except the decision which chain wins in case of a fork (as you can't determine which was first, so you still leave that part up to miners)
2000 2014-04-01 21:57:06 <maaku> bedeho: more generally SPV is: trust the most-work chain tip is correct
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2007 2014-04-01 21:59:22 <bedeho> maaku: thanks for links *printing*
2008 2014-04-01 22:00:28 <maaku> bedeho: I like the 2nd link because it cites many of the other threads that have discussed this
2009 2014-04-01 22:00:38 <maaku> it's a very old idea (at least as far back as 2010)
2010 2014-04-01 22:00:41 <edcba> sipa you got me...
2011 2014-04-01 22:00:54 <sipa> edcba: how so?
2012 2014-04-01 22:01:22 <edcba> finite monetary supply...
2013 2014-04-01 22:02:01 <maaku> but there are very many different ways to do it. i have my own iteration that I will be formulating into a bip soon-ish (using this data structure: https://github.com/maaku/bips/blob/master/drafts/auth-trie.mediawiki)
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2111 2014-04-01 23:40:44 <roybadami> OMG, I took one look at my mailbox, and came *this* close to posting something suggesting that extensive discussion of a hard fork that clearly had zero chance of adoption should *please* be taken off list LOL
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2115 2014-04-01 23:42:02 <sipa> on any day except this one...
2116 2014-04-01 23:43:15 <Luke-Jr> roybadami: it's a soft fork. and pretty likely to get adopted IMO
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2120 2014-04-01 23:43:39 <sipa> unless of course you misread, and assume it's about making it infinite
2121 2014-04-01 23:43:48 <Luke-Jr> heh
2122 2014-04-01 23:43:54 <roybadami> I just saw discussion of chaning thge money supply
2123 2014-04-01 23:44:10 <sipa> decreasing it is only a softfork
2124 2014-04-01 23:44:19 <Luke-Jr> roybadami: yes, right now it is infinite.
2125 2014-04-01 23:44:48 <Luke-Jr> in a few centuries, it starts over at 50 BTC again
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2127 2014-04-01 23:46:09 <roybadami> Oh, is that the actual code?  Didn't bother to check.  Well, it's undefined.... Who knows what popuar C implemetiaos will be doing
2128 2014-04-01 23:46:11 airq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2129 2014-04-01 23:46:17 <roybadami> I predict nasal daemons
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2131 2014-04-01 23:46:39 <Luke-Jr> roybadami: Bitcoin Core only works on ARM and x86 right now, where it has a known implementation
2132 2014-04-01 23:46:53 <sipa> and only x86 is really supported
2133 2014-04-01 23:47:46 <roybadami> Depends on the compiler, surely?
2134 2014-04-01 23:48:00 <gmaxwell> roybadami: in theory, in practice I was unable to find anything that behaved differently on x86.
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2136 2014-04-01 23:48:37 <roybadami> Yes, but who knows what x86 compilers will be doing a few centuries from now
2137 2014-04-01 23:48:53 <sipa> not really relevant
2138 2014-04-01 23:49:03 <sipa> we would just never be able to support such a platform
2139 2014-04-01 23:49:10 <sipa> (without BIP42, that is)
2140 2014-04-01 23:49:23 <sipa> or rather, without the implementation change
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2142 2014-04-01 23:50:00 <Luke-Jr> roybadami: for Bitcoin, changing undefined behaviour is … undefined ._.
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2144 2014-04-01 23:50:47 <roybadami> OMG.... I'd forgotten how many gaps in the BIP sequence there were LOL
2145 2014-04-01 23:50:50 <gmaxwell> :) you could potentially imagine some case where over time the overwhelmingly most popular behavior drifted to the other state before the difference was triggered; meaning the behavior we'd have to stick to would be that. :)
2146 2014-04-01 23:51:04 <gmaxwell> roybadami: it's intentionally not dense.
2147 2014-04-01 23:51:46 <roybadami> What's the criterion for starting a new decade?
2148 2014-04-01 23:52:11 <gmaxwell> roybadami: "whenever I feel like it" mostly.  Basically we leave space to allow some batching, thats all.
2149 2014-04-01 23:52:19 <roybadami> It's been, generally, usually dense, with occiational skips to a new multiple of 10
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2151 2014-04-01 23:52:33 * sipa eagerly awaits BIP 2
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2154 2014-04-01 23:53:04 <roybadami> Right, but it's not intentionally non-monatonically increasing.... at least, not significantly so
2155 2014-04-01 23:53:33 <sipa> i figure bip 2 will be "modification to bip 1: from now on, all accepted BIPs are immutable, and modifications must be submitted as new BIPs"
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2158 2014-04-01 23:54:15 <roybadami> I'm happy for the BIP 1-9 series to be metabips - that kinda makes sense
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2161 2014-04-01 23:55:10 <roybadami> sorry, it's just that you got me with BIP42--- hadn't noticed that was the link I'd read earlier... and by the number assumed it must be some old BIP..... and had to go look it up
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2163 2014-04-01 23:56:30 <maaku> roybadami: it's happened often that large sequences are allocated for bips that a year later are still not finalized (or even released)
2164 2014-04-01 23:57:29 <roybadami> True.... but there multiple of ten thing looks far from a coincidence
2165 2014-04-01 23:57:30 <Luke-Jr> [23:52:03] <sipa> i figure bip 2 will be "modification to bip 1: from now on, all accepted BIPs are immutable, and modifications must be submitted as new BIPs" <-- isn't this already the casE?
2166 2014-04-01 23:57:44 <gmaxwell> roybadami: really the numbering criteria is to try to improve memorability. "oh, 4xx must be about bar"
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2168 2014-04-01 23:58:12 <sipa> Luke-Jr: maybe it should be :)
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2170 2014-04-01 23:59:03 <gmaxwell> This actually made it hard for me to come up with a justification for 42. Since sipa asked for it to be finite I had a justification based on p-adic shear transforms, but the sequence gave earlier unused bips. So I was stuck with waiting until ten people responded and making the elliptical integer partition comments.
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2172 2014-04-01 23:59:13 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's not yet, but maybe it should be. Thats how RFCs work.
2173 2014-04-01 23:59:42 <Luke-Jr> I'm assuming "modifications" that just clarify things are still okay.
2174 2014-04-01 23:59:56 <gmaxwell> in reality we've used the ability to edit them to some good effect, e.g. fixing citations. The inability to change requires some pretty awesome editoral review to avoid stubbing your foot.