1 2014-04-02 00:00:41 <Luke-Jr> ok, I'd say just forbid modifications that actually modify the meaning :p
   2 2014-04-02 00:00:50 <sipa> gmaxwell: i actually missed that there was a good reason for the number
   3 2014-04-02 00:00:56 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: sometimes thats really hard to decide.
   4 2014-04-02 00:01:05 <roybadami> Isn['t the whole point of puttin them into git so that they *can* be edited?
   5 2014-04-02 00:01:09 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, it's the partition number of 10. :)
   6 2014-04-02 00:01:14 <gmaxwell> roybadami: no.
   7 2014-04-02 00:01:24 <roybadami> RFCs are immuatable.... BIPs, it seems are not
   8 2014-04-02 00:01:29 <gmaxwell> (and certantly they were editable in the wiki!)
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  10 2014-04-02 00:01:44 <roybadami> Well, so they can be edited, in a way that we can still trust the history
  11 2014-04-02 00:01:47 <sipa> and they occasionally were just edited on the wiki, without the author knowing about it
  12 2014-04-02 00:01:58 <sipa> with git, it is at least moderated
  13 2014-04-02 00:02:00 <gmaxwell> roybadami: keep in mind that the comment above was specific to _accepted_ bips.
  14 2014-04-02 00:02:13 <roybadami> Right.... and in git they can be edited but it requires a pull request
  15 2014-04-02 00:02:15 <sipa> (which is a fuzzy definition by itself)
  16 2014-04-02 00:02:18 <gmaxwell> not just edited, but actually made incorrect and left incorrect for months. :(
  17 2014-04-02 00:03:07 <roybadami> Well, yeah... that's the nature of wikis.... probably not the best place for stuff that really matters, i agree
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  19 2014-04-02 00:03:30 <roybadami> (Although interesting.... didn't know that had acutally happened - but can't say it surprised me)
  20 2014-04-02 00:03:37 <gmaxwell> well there are extensions to mediawiki that make it more sutable. (e.g. give it a review process) but the github stuff works fine too.
  21 2014-04-02 00:03:54 <roybadami> I like it being in git
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  25 2014-04-02 00:04:14 <roybadami> Using the same process as for the code seems right
  26 2014-04-02 00:04:35 <gmaxwell> roybadami: yea, someone broke BIP32 — changed one of the formulas to use a private key in the place of the public key or something like that. The syntax in that bip was/is confusing, someone got confused and helpfully clarified it incorrectly.
  27 2014-04-02 00:04:36 <roybadami> Well, at leat the same tools
  28 2014-04-02 00:04:47 <roybadami> Oh.... really
  29 2014-04-02 00:05:00 <gmaxwell> We also had BIP38 get published basically with ~no one noticing for a long span of time.
  30 2014-04-02 00:05:47 <gmaxwell> sipa: be glad that BIPs are not RFCs and you don't have to do an ascii version of that chart. :P
  31 2014-04-02 00:05:55 <roybadami> I remember there was an obvious typo lie that in BIP32 when I read it and had been meaning for ages to reread it and flag the issue
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  35 2014-04-02 00:06:30 <sipa> roybadami: i made some significant changes to it not so long ago
  36 2014-04-02 00:06:51 <roybadami> I should reread it anyway.... :-)
  37 2014-04-02 00:07:11 <sipa> some have commented that it's less confusing now :)
  38 2014-04-02 00:07:52 <roybadami> But I remember a typo - was it a symbol the wrong case of something - I forget the notation now
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  43 2014-04-02 00:11:45 <roybadami> BTW, I think it would be really good for BIP32 to at least acknowledge the existence of the terms Type 1 and Type 2.  If I'mm not mistaken they are historical terms that refer to the two derivations in BIP32 - but it took me a long time to figure that out
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  45 2014-04-02 00:12:01 <sipa> type-1 is called hardened derivation in bip32
  46 2014-04-02 00:12:06 <sipa> type-2 is normal derivation
  47 2014-04-02 00:12:23 <sipa> it may make sense to add those names, indeed
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  49 2014-04-02 00:12:32 <roybadami> Oh, we don't talk aboutpublic and private derivations any more?
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  51 2014-04-02 00:12:51 <sipa> nope, too confusing
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  53 2014-04-02 00:13:24 <sipa> public/private was basically used in 3 different cases
  54 2014-04-02 00:13:42 <roybadami> I think it would be good to cross-reference the historical terms, though.... the fact is they have been used a lot in previous discussions.  I think it would be helpful to have an appendix that discusses this
  55 2014-04-02 00:13:56 <sipa> pull requests welcome
  56 2014-04-02 00:13:59 * sipa zZzZ
  57 2014-04-02 00:14:20 <lclc> I'm on the beamer screen :O guess I'm famous now
  58 2014-04-02 00:15:03 <gmaxwell> thats not a suggestion I would have made simply because it seems a little vanity-ish to me (just because I originated the type-2 stuff and that nomenclature). :) but if you think it would be useful, please feel free to pull req.
  59 2014-04-02 00:15:23 <roybadami> Well, I'll have a go, if I have time.. Problem is I'd risk guessing, because most of these terms aren't documented anywhere
  60 2014-04-02 00:16:01 <sipa> roybadami: i'll gladly review :)
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  63 2014-04-02 00:16:50 <roybadami> Oh.... there is so much reference to type 1 and type 2 thought....
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  65 2014-04-02 00:17:36 <roybadami> For the longest time the wiki said, of at least one of them... that it exists but noone knows what it is (paraphrased - but pretty much what it said)
  66 2014-04-02 00:17:48 <gmaxwell> hm? type-1 / type-2 are defined in my original post that introduced the idea of using the homomorphism that way: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=19137.0
  67 2014-04-02 00:18:49 <roybadami> Right.... I think I found that eventually - but it's not easy to find unless you know what you're looking for
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  69 2014-04-02 00:19:23 <gmaxwell> roybadami: hahah indeed you're right: https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Deterministic_wallet&oldid=29573#Type_2_deterministic_wallet
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  71 2014-04-02 00:20:34 <roybadami> Yeah, that's what I remember when I first was reading about this stuff :-)
  72 2014-04-02 00:21:24 <roybadami> The current wiki page isn't much better - it basically just references BIP32 which, of course, completely fails to define the term "type 2"
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  75 2014-04-02 00:26:23 <roybadami> Ah, I see it does reference your bitcointalk post, too
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 130 2014-04-02 01:39:09 <dugo> anyone have a good cliff note on bitcoind needing more than 256 MB of memory?
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 247 2014-04-02 03:17:49 <sipa> dugo: "yes"
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 282 2014-04-02 04:20:06 <Zarutian> gmaxwell: re sufficiently advanced phisihing request: that or their rod and wheel were good enough.
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 285 2014-04-02 04:25:20 <phantomcircuit> i've been getting ever increasingly sophisticated phishing attacks recently
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 292 2014-04-02 04:34:47 <BCB> like what
 293 2014-04-02 04:35:10 <BCB> phantomcircuit, what is the delimiter used in the wallet.dat file?
 294 2014-04-02 04:35:23 <phantomcircuit> BCB, i've gotten phishing emails that look exactly like invoices from people who are actually suppliers
 295 2014-04-02 04:35:47 <BCB> creepy
 296 2014-04-02 04:36:11 <phantomcircuit> BCB, yeah suppliers who aren't exactly well known
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 303 2014-04-02 04:41:02 <sipa> BCB: delimiter?
 304 2014-04-02 04:41:23 <BCB> sipa how are the addressses separated
 305 2014-04-02 04:41:25 <BCB> keys
 306 2014-04-02 04:41:46 <sipa> by... bytes?
 307 2014-04-02 04:41:53 <sipa> it's not a csv file
 308 2014-04-02 04:42:03 <sipa> it's a database with records and indexes
 309 2014-04-02 04:42:10 <sipa> storing key-value pairs of several types
 310 2014-04-02 04:42:24 <BCB> why are pub keys stored 3 times
 311 2014-04-02 04:42:39 <sipa> that's a good question!
 312 2014-04-02 04:43:01 <sipa> once for the pubkey -> privkey data, once for pubkey -> metadata, once for pubkey -> keypool
 313 2014-04-02 04:43:10 <sipa> which should be joined into a single record
 314 2014-04-02 04:43:14 <BCB> interesting
 315 2014-04-02 04:43:16 <sipa> but backward compatibility, blah blah
 316 2014-04-02 04:43:57 <BCB> what db level?
 317 2014-04-02 04:44:10 <sipa> db level?
 318 2014-04-02 04:45:03 <BCB> leveldb
 319 2014-04-02 04:45:06 <sipa> no, bdb
 320 2014-04-02 04:45:14 <BCB> I thougth you switched
 321 2014-04-02 04:45:23 <sipa> for the chainstate/blockchain indexes
 322 2014-04-02 04:45:26 <BCB> ahh
 323 2014-04-02 04:45:26 <sipa> but not for the wallet
 324 2014-04-02 04:46:07 <BCB> can I convert a privkey in wif to hex
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 326 2014-04-02 04:46:19 <sipa> sure
 327 2014-04-02 04:46:51 <sipa> base58check decode it, and you should get 0x80 + [32-byte privkey] + 0x01
 328 2014-04-02 04:47:36 <sipa> (the final 0x01 is to indicate that the corresponding public key is to be compressed, which bitcoind uses by default)
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 348 2014-04-02 05:16:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If it's for a non-compressed key, it'll be a 0x00
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 368 2014-04-02 05:55:43 <netg_> /
 369 2014-04-02 05:55:50 <netg_> 6
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 390 2014-04-02 06:27:01 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: or just be missing
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 413 2014-04-02 07:04:44 <AmThatsMe> Hi, can any one help with a failed pull tester ?
 414 2014-04-02 07:05:12 <sipa> which?
 415 2014-04-02 07:05:50 <AmThatsMe> http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/058ab408cce5d419019345ab2f0d11cc31a88941/test.log
 416 2014-04-02 07:06:24 <AmThatsMe> Only change from last successful pull tester is that i squashed the comments
 417 2014-04-02 07:06:37 <sipa> which pull?
 418 2014-04-02 07:07:31 oPen_syLar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 419 2014-04-02 07:08:04 <AmThatsMe> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3960
 420 2014-04-02 07:08:55 benrcole has joined
 421 2014-04-02 07:09:10 <sipa> that looks bad, but it can't be caused by your change
 422 2014-04-02 07:10:06 <AmThatsMe> should i push again ? maybe something went wrong
 423 2014-04-02 07:11:29 <sipa> yeah, you can make some trivial change and try pushing again
 424 2014-04-02 07:12:14 <AmThatsMe> ok, thanks.
 425 2014-04-02 07:12:20 <AmThatsMe> i'll try
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 454 2014-04-02 07:50:06 <Bitember-Cray> hey
 455 2014-04-02 07:50:08 phantomspark has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 456 2014-04-02 07:50:30 <Bitember-Cray> i was wondering a bit about the -datadir and -conf options
 457 2014-04-02 07:51:03 <Bitember-Cray> -datadir creates a whole new folder with peer list, conf file, wallet.dat and blockchain right?
 458 2014-04-02 07:51:26 <sipa> it sets the directory where to find those, yes
 459 2014-04-02 07:51:35 <sipa> amd if it doean't exist, it's created
 460 2014-04-02 07:51:53 <Bitember-Cray> yeah, but what does -conf do?
 461 2014-04-02 07:52:02 <sipa> it sets the location of the config file
 462 2014-04-02 07:52:16 <sipa> the logic is twister, but mostly does what you'd expect
 463 2014-04-02 07:52:22 <sipa> *twisted
 464 2014-04-02 07:52:25 <Bitember-Cray> say i want to run 3 instances
 465 2014-04-02 07:52:46 <Bitember-Cray> same blockchain, different wallet.dat on different ports
 466 2014-04-02 07:53:05 <Bitember-Cray> is that possible or do I have to use -datadir for that and have three blockchains?
 467 2014-04-02 07:53:09 <sipa> you cannot share the blockchain between different instances
 468 2014-04-02 07:53:11 <sipa> not yet
 469 2014-04-02 07:53:21 <Bitember-Cray> well that's a bummer
 470 2014-04-02 07:53:29 <sipa> yeah
 471 2014-04-02 07:53:46 toffoo has quit ()
 472 2014-04-02 07:53:54 <Bitember-Cray> well, thanks sipa
 473 2014-04-02 07:54:09 <sipa> sharing blockchain databases is hard, but allowimg multiple wallets in one instance shouldn't be hard
 474 2014-04-02 07:54:16 <sipa> expect that it isn't implementes
 475 2014-04-02 07:54:44 <sipa> you can run separate instances
 476 2014-04-02 07:54:49 Starduster has joined
 477 2014-04-02 07:55:04 <sipa> but you'll need to give them separate datadirs, separate rpc ports and separate p2p ports
 478 2014-04-02 07:55:08 <Bitember-Cray> yeah i figued
 479 2014-04-02 07:55:20 <sipa> also, you can hardlink old blockchain files together
 480 2014-04-02 07:55:22 <Bitember-Cray> it just seems such a waste of hdd space
 481 2014-04-02 07:55:42 <Bitember-Cray> i mean, the btc blockchain is pretty big now, isnt it?
 482 2014-04-02 07:55:53 <sipa> 11 gb i believe
 483 2014-04-02 07:56:02 <sipa> but i lost track
 484 2014-04-02 07:56:35 <Bitember-Cray> yeah, that's going to be a problem in 30-40 years
 485 2014-04-02 07:56:41 <sipa> 17 gb apparently
 486 2014-04-02 07:56:44 <sipa> i doubt that
 487 2014-04-02 07:56:55 <sipa> disks keep growing faster
 488 2014-04-02 07:56:58 t7 has joined
 489 2014-04-02 07:57:02 <sipa> as do network speeds
 490 2014-04-02 07:57:12 <maaku> do they? they seem to have gotten stuck the last few years
 491 2014-04-02 07:57:25 <sipa> s/faster/larger/
 492 2014-04-02 07:57:33 <maaku> that's what I meant
 493 2014-04-02 07:57:48 <sipa> it's been a while since i upgraded my desktop
 494 2014-04-02 07:57:57 <sipa> last time it was 2tb drives
 495 2014-04-02 07:58:27 <sipa> now they have 4tb ones, i believe?
 496 2014-04-02 07:58:35 <maaku> it's up to 4tb now, but iirc we are brushing up against physical limits in the current design
 497 2014-04-02 07:58:46 <maaku> there are larger disks, but only because they use more platters
 498 2014-04-02 07:59:05 <sipa> ic
 499 2014-04-02 07:59:41 <sipa> well, can't grow more than 50 gb per year or so anyway
 500 2014-04-02 07:59:59 <sipa> at current block size
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 502 2014-04-02 08:00:54 airq has joined
 503 2014-04-02 08:00:57 <maaku> yeah, it's not a problem for btc
 504 2014-04-02 08:01:06 <Bitember-Cray> anywho
 505 2014-04-02 08:01:15 <maaku> just me venting frustration that disks are getting cheaper, but not bigger :\
 506 2014-04-02 08:01:18 <Bitember-Cray> i was planning on setting up a block explorer
 507 2014-04-02 08:01:22 <Bitember-Cray> got any to recomend?
 508 2014-04-02 08:01:32 <Bitember-Cray> i've heard good things about abe but never tried it myself
 509 2014-04-02 08:01:36 <maaku> Bitember-Cray: bitcore?
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 515 2014-04-02 08:05:34 <saracen> Hmm. "Corrupted block database detected"
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 519 2014-04-02 08:09:57 <maaku> saracen: -reindex :(
 520 2014-04-02 08:11:34 <AmThatsMe> sipa: Thanks! pushing seems to do the trick. pull #3837 passed the pull tester.
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 527 2014-04-02 08:24:04 <ander_> Hi, do u know if i can find format of a transaction outside the block, its inputs and outputs either?
 528 2014-04-02 08:24:41 hearn has quit (Quit: hearn)
 529 2014-04-02 08:25:17 <ander_> Hi, do u know if i can find format of a transaction outside the block, also its inputs and outputs?
 530 2014-04-02 08:26:06 <ander_> because what i found in the wiki is format of them but inside the block only
 531 2014-04-02 08:28:40 <ander_> gaiz pls
 532 2014-04-02 08:29:40 <ander_> am i connected thou?
 533 2014-04-02 08:29:46 <ander_> :D
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 537 2014-04-02 08:30:49 <ander_> seriously, anyone can help me?
 538 2014-04-02 08:32:13 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 539 2014-04-02 08:32:30 <ander_> Do u know if i can find format of a transaction outside the block, because all i found in the wiki is format of transaction but inside a block only
 540 2014-04-02 08:34:21 W0rmDr1nk has joined
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 542 2014-04-02 08:34:45 <jouke> ander_: do you mean the format it is transmitted to nodes?
 543 2014-04-02 08:35:55 gribble has joined
 544 2014-04-02 08:35:58 <saracen> makomk: Yeah, reindexing now. :( I find it weird though, because the client was cleanly shutdown the last time I used it
 545 2014-04-02 08:36:16 <ander_> jop
 546 2014-04-02 08:36:37 <ander_> the same
 547 2014-04-02 08:36:40 <jouke> ander_: it is the same
 548 2014-04-02 08:37:58 <ander_> so why there (on the wiki) is writen: "general format of a Bitcoin transaction (inside a block)"
 549 2014-04-02 08:38:45 OneMiner has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 550 2014-04-02 08:40:08 <ander_> and actually i think that when transaction is broadcasted itself it should at least have some identification no on the beginning like blocks have  0xD9B4BEF9
 551 2014-04-02 08:41:27 benrcole has joined
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 553 2014-04-02 08:42:34 <jouke> ander_: the "identification" of a transaction is the hash of the transaction
 554 2014-04-02 08:43:20 MaxSan has joined
 555 2014-04-02 08:43:32 <ander_> no, but i mean the package, or stream or whatever is going on in p2p
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 565 2014-04-02 08:49:54 <ander_> there should be some data on the beginning, so nodes know that it is comming transaction now. in the wiki description of the transaction inside the block on the beginning there is version no which is 0x00000001, and i don't think this can be a identifier. 0xD9B4BEF9 which is for blocks consists of realy rare characters of ASCII and not valid for utf-8
 566 2014-04-02 08:53:05 GoldDigger has joined
 567 2014-04-02 08:53:51 <ander_> am i thinking good?
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 575 2014-04-02 09:02:10 _MrB_ has joined
 576 2014-04-02 09:04:34 <sipa> ander_: i do not understand
 577 2014-04-02 09:04:37 <_MrB_> what are the consequences of building bitcoin  with a libdb version other than libdb4.8-dev ?
 578 2014-04-02 09:04:57 <sipa> _MrB_: not being able to open your wallet.dat file with versions built with an older one
 579 2014-04-02 09:05:21 <_MrB_> hmm, so quite severe
 580 2014-04-02 09:05:45 __davido__ has joined
 581 2014-04-02 09:05:46 <_MrB_> oh wait, i read that wrong
 582 2014-04-02 09:06:04 <sipa> you can always dump & reimport at the BDB level, allowing downgrading
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 587 2014-04-02 09:06:57 <_MrB_> it's getting quite a task to build bitcoin on ubuntu with 4.8 (it's now 2 major releases ago they included it I think)
 588 2014-04-02 09:07:14 Imaginativeone has joined
 589 2014-04-02 09:08:39 <sipa> i haven't bothered for a long time
 590 2014-04-02 09:08:41 <sipa> 5.1 works fine
 591 2014-04-02 09:08:43 cbr has joined
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 593 2014-04-02 09:09:37 <wumpus> me neither, I've always built with 5.1 for as long as  I can remember
 594 2014-04-02 09:09:55 paracyst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 595 2014-04-02 09:10:36 <_MrB_> configure --with-incompatible-bdb it is then
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 598 2014-04-02 09:12:10 <_MrB_> any special reason we are holding on to 4.8 by default?
 599 2014-04-02 09:13:31 <sipa> release binaries need to support old distro's
 600 2014-04-02 09:13:41 <sipa> which don't necessarily have new bdb libs
 601 2014-04-02 09:13:58 <midnightmagic> _MrB_: you can add the ppa repository and it will happily supply such a thing.
 602 2014-04-02 09:14:12 <_MrB_> midnightmagic: for trusty it wont yet
 603 2014-04-02 09:14:27 <midnightmagic> mm.
 604 2014-04-02 09:14:31 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 605 2014-04-02 09:14:35 <midnightmagic> dunno anything about trusty.
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 607 2014-04-02 09:18:57 <wumpus> you can always use gitian to build if you want the default dependencies
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 609 2014-04-02 09:23:45 <_MrB_> wumpus: gitian sounds interesting (looking at gitian.org)
 610 2014-04-02 09:25:04 ander_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 611 2014-04-02 09:25:33 AmThatsMe has quit (Quit: AmThatsMe)
 612 2014-04-02 09:26:10 <SomeoneWeird> _MrB_, are you sure? why won't it work on trusty?
 613 2014-04-02 09:26:46 okneax has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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 615 2014-04-02 09:27:34 <_MrB_> SomeoneWeird: if we are talking about this ppa: https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin  The trusty series is not yet in there.
 616 2014-04-02 09:27:51 <Bitember-Cray> how much io-data does a bitcoin client use
 617 2014-04-02 09:28:08 <Bitember-Cray> say if you just store coins on it compared to if you use it for a big pool
 618 2014-04-02 09:28:23 <SomeoneWeird> _MrB_, so?
 619 2014-04-02 09:28:25 da2ce7_laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 620 2014-04-02 09:28:32 <Bitember-Cray> in vauge terms
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 623 2014-04-02 09:28:51 <SomeoneWeird> sed -i 'trusty/raring' /etc/apt/source.list.d/bitcoin-bitcoin.list
 624 2014-04-02 09:28:54 <SomeoneWeird> or whatever the hell the file is
 625 2014-04-02 09:28:55 <_MrB_> SomeoneWeird: so, without added jugglery, it wont work
 626 2014-04-02 09:29:34 <SomeoneWeird> mmmmmmmk
 627 2014-04-02 09:29:59 <vetch> Bitember-Cray: disk IO you mean? nearly all of it will be in the initial blockchain sync, the size of the wallet would be irrelevant in comparison.
 628 2014-04-02 09:33:18 <Bitember-Cray> well, i've noticed that wallets with a lot of transactions tends to get huge over time
 629 2014-04-02 09:33:26 <_MrB_> sipa: so qt client autoupgrades db from 4.8 to 5.1 or do I need to do something special?
 630 2014-04-02 09:33:41 <sipa> _MrB_: it autoupgrades your wallet.dat, yes
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 632 2014-04-02 09:34:26 <vetch> Bitember-Cray: still fairly irrelevant when compared with the blockchain itself.
 633 2014-04-02 09:34:34 <_MrB_> yet it fails with ERROR: CDB() : error Invalid argument (22) opening database environment
 634 2014-04-02 09:34:38 gry has left ()
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 636 2014-04-02 09:35:46 <Bitember-Cray> which config options would you guys suggest using for it to use as little cpu/ram/disk io
 637 2014-04-02 09:35:52 <Bitember-Cray> after the blockchain is downloaded
 638 2014-04-02 09:36:19 <Bitember-Cray> and still be able to send/recieve coins
 639 2014-04-02 09:37:27 Lexa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 640 2014-04-02 09:38:37 <sipa> Bitember-Cray: set maxconnections low
 641 2014-04-02 09:38:43 Lexa has joined
 642 2014-04-02 09:44:53 <Bitember-Cray> and the -listen command
 643 2014-04-02 09:45:09 <Bitember-Cray> is that if you want to be a node
 644 2014-04-02 09:45:18 <Bitember-Cray> or is it that it's "offline" if set to 0
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 646 2014-04-02 09:46:13 <Bitember-Cray> is there a more indepth documentation about the client than the wiki?
 647 2014-04-02 09:47:09 Lexa has joined
 648 2014-04-02 09:49:09 <wumpus> _MrB_: bdb cannot upgrade the wallet.dat if it was not shut down properly last time
 649 2014-04-02 09:49:42 <_MrB_> wumpus: is that what the msg means?
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 652 2014-04-02 09:50:17 <wumpus> ... no idea
 653 2014-04-02 09:50:27 <wumpus> it's possible
 654 2014-04-02 09:51:02 <sipa> _MrB_: look in db.log for details
 655 2014-04-02 09:51:06 * _MrB_ feels a non-productive afternoon coming up 
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 657 2014-04-02 09:51:39 <sipa> if you're in my timezone, you have 10 minutes left...
 658 2014-04-02 09:51:59 <_MrB_> nl here
 659 2014-04-02 09:52:02 <_MrB_> so, yeah
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 662 2014-04-02 09:52:51 <_MrB_> 'invalid log file' jumps out
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 665 2014-04-02 09:53:31 <wumpus> if there is a log file that indeed means that it was not shut down properly
 666 2014-04-02 09:53:41 <_MrB_> no log file
 667 2014-04-02 09:53:49 <wumpus> you can try manually upgrading the database using db4.8_dump | db_5.1_load
 668 2014-04-02 09:54:10 <wumpus> the dump utility should be able to do crash recovery
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 676 2014-04-02 09:56:42 * _MrB_ gets a coffee first
 677 2014-04-02 09:57:33 <wumpus> (in ubuntu these are in packages db4.8-util and db5.1-util)
 678 2014-04-02 09:59:13 <_MrB_> wumpus: yeah, means I still need to install db4.8, oh well
 679 2014-04-02 10:00:10 <wumpus> well the other way would be to run a bitcoind binary built against db4.8 (like the one from bitcoin.org) and shut it down cleanly
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 681 2014-04-02 10:00:44 <_MrB_> wumpus: i put a restored the backup, works now (db5.3 though)
 682 2014-04-02 10:01:42 <_MrB_> phew, just before noon. productivity restored! Thanks for your time guys.
 683 2014-04-02 10:01:55 <wumpus> restoring a good backup is always the best way
 684 2014-04-02 10:02:16 * _MrB_ nods
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 686 2014-04-02 10:02:30 <wumpus> I didn't even consider that, I'm already cynical enough to assume people don't have those :-)
 687 2014-04-02 10:02:36 <_MrB_> heh
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 938 2014-04-02 14:20:17 <denisx> is there an API where I can get the transaction/h?
 939 2014-04-02 14:20:25 <denisx> or something similar
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 948 2014-04-02 14:23:52 <GuySoft> hey all, does anyone here have experience with gitian? I am on debian and it can't fine the python-vm-builder package there
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 951 2014-04-02 14:32:29 <wumpus> GuySoft: there is  no python-vm-builder package on debian, you need to build it from source, see https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin/blob/2014_04_debian_gitian_build_doc/doc/gitian-building.md#installing-gitian
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 957 2014-04-02 14:38:01 <only> anyone online?
 958 2014-04-02 14:38:04 <only> need some help
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 962 2014-04-02 14:39:44 <vetch> only: in the absence of anybody else, ask away and I'll do my best.
 963 2014-04-02 14:40:42 <only> vetch: thanks. is it possible to look at a multisig (exported) script and say whether it's 2-of-3 or not?
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 966 2014-04-02 14:43:24 <vetch> I would imagine so in a similar way that the software would. I'm not sure if there's tools that exist to allow you to or not, might be best to wait for somebody more experienced to answer that one.
 967 2014-04-02 14:43:25 <only> such as this: 524104c72c88b7ca4660502f6b37ae1c4b5be52a01f043de14fac71f2e823fd96cc80abd1053a69a765ab8d018685bb24e7f557a39f48518113bf48cacdf4fc3319c714104c72c88b7ca4660502f6b37ae1c4b5be52a01f043de14fac71f2e823fd96cc80abd1053a69a765ab8d018685bb24e7f557a39f48518113bf48cacdf4fc3319c714104c72c88b7ca4660502f6b37ae1c4b5be52a01f043de14fac71f2e823fd96cc80abd1053a69a765ab8d018685bb24e7f557a39f48518113bf48cacdf4fc3319c7153ae
 968 2014-04-02 14:43:51 <vetch> there's a "decodescript" RPC command that sounds promising.
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 970 2014-04-02 14:44:14 <only> in core?
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 972 2014-04-02 14:44:31 <vetch> yes.
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 975 2014-04-02 14:47:04 <only> let me check that, thanks
 976 2014-04-02 14:47:46 <only> works, thanks a bunch vetch! :)
 977 2014-04-02 14:48:07 <only> wonder if you can fake it tho (i.e. remove an address)
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 979 2014-04-02 14:51:56 <vetch> I doubt it, then the transaction wouldn't match the address hash anymore. I've not really read up on them in depth though.
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 981 2014-04-02 14:54:54 <vetch> only: yes, if you change the script you supply when you make the spend it becomes invalid. the address being a hash of the script allows you to verify the script is as intended.
 982 2014-04-02 14:56:19 <only> I see, so if I demand payment to a multisig address (that verifies with the script) and provide the script, anyone can tell it's genuine and indeed a 2-of-3, correct?
 983 2014-04-02 14:56:37 Zarutian has joined
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 985 2014-04-02 14:57:22 <dexx> yes
 986 2014-04-02 14:57:24 <vetch> from my reading of BIP16, yes.
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 991 2014-04-02 14:58:19 <only> thanks a bunch, it's a huge life-saver :)
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 993 2014-04-02 14:59:09 <dexx> take a look at http://pastebin.com/sqhsHni2 for an example how it would look like
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 996 2014-04-02 15:01:12 <only> I just did it in console, myself
 997 2014-04-02 15:01:14 <only> really cool
 998 2014-04-02 15:01:49 <only> also, here is a user-friendly tool which does the same (under "Verify"): https://coinb.in/multisig/
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1001 2014-04-02 15:02:21 <dexx> ah, nice
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1044 2014-04-02 15:43:55 <mehqods> hi
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1046 2014-04-02 15:44:51 <mehqods> how to generate private  ECDSA key in new altcoin?
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1050 2014-04-02 15:51:46 <Burrito> Not dependent on the network.
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1052 2014-04-02 15:52:08 <Apocalyptic> mehqods, altcoins are off topic here
1053 2014-04-02 15:53:36 <mehqods> Apocalyptic ok, how satoshi generated his private ECDSA hey? :D
1054 2014-04-02 15:53:55 <Burrito> It's just a random number. :V
1055 2014-04-02 15:54:20 <Burrito> 256-bits
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1057 2014-04-02 15:54:38 <Apocalyptic> that's the private exponent
1058 2014-04-02 15:54:48 <Apocalyptic> not to be confused with the whole key
1059 2014-04-02 15:54:57 <Burrito> ah *facedesk*
1060 2014-04-02 15:56:40 <Burrito> Apocalyptic, Now what's confusing me is this. http://brainwallet.org/ - "Secret exponent" and "Private key" (the WIF one) are the same value.
1061 2014-04-02 15:56:56 <Burrito> Is only the DER version used in practice?
1062 2014-04-02 15:57:01 <Burrito> or eventually?
1063 2014-04-02 15:57:44 <Apocalyptic> I thought he was talking about the DER format yeah
1064 2014-04-02 15:57:50 <Burrito> ah, right
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1092 2014-04-02 16:30:43 <bedeho> if you resend transaction with a larger sequence number on one of its inputs, then this will change its hash, so how will nodes know to replace it in mempool?
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1099 2014-04-02 16:37:03 <maaku> bedeho: no nodes support mempool replacement
1100 2014-04-02 16:37:14 pierreatwork has joined
1101 2014-04-02 16:37:15 <maaku> but if they did, it would be because the inputs are the same
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1103 2014-04-02 16:37:33 <maaku> no bitcoin software should ever compare unconfirmed transactions by hash
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1108 2014-04-02 16:39:24 <bedeho> is this unsafe for some reason?
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1112 2014-04-02 16:40:20 <maaku> yes, as originally envisioned it makes double-spending trivial
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1114 2014-04-02 16:40:44 <maaku> and the incentives are horribly mis-aligned - you should expect miners to respect higher fees, not higher sequences
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1117 2014-04-02 16:41:16 <maaku> sequence-based replacement will probably never be implemented, but you may see fee-based replacement
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1119 2014-04-02 16:41:22 <juantelez> Hi, all.
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1121 2014-04-02 16:42:55 <bedeho> maaku: ah yes, didnt think of that.
1122 2014-04-02 16:42:59 <bedeho> juantelez: hi
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1124 2014-04-02 16:43:56 <juantelez> I'm trying to get familiar with the debug console of the bitcoin-qt client.
1125 2014-04-02 16:44:02 <bedeho> that is a really great point ...
1126 2014-04-02 16:44:40 <juantelez> But I can't even get a balance of an address
1127 2014-04-02 16:45:02 <juantelez> 13:34:40
1128 2014-04-02 16:45:04 <juantelez> getbalance 16u9scrpFkHEgdwYz28ZmQnE7DGjBBiFax
1129 2014-04-02 16:45:06 <juantelez> 13:34:40
1130 2014-04-02 16:45:08 <juantelez> 0.00000000
1131 2014-04-02 16:45:13 <juantelez> http://blockchain.info/address/16u9scrpFkHEgdwYz28ZmQnE7DGjBBiFax
1132 2014-04-02 16:46:09 <maaku> juantelez: bitcoind doesn't work that way
1133 2014-04-02 16:46:20 <maaku> try 'help getbalance'
1134 2014-04-02 16:46:34 <maaku> there's no such thing as a balance of an address, getbalance is just used to get your wallet balance
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1136 2014-04-02 16:47:44 <juantelez> maaku: thanks. I thouth tha "account" and "public address" was the same thing
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1139 2014-04-02 16:51:12 <Happzz> so technically speaking, how did no one came up with a very simple website that accepts bitcoins at one address and sends "other coins" to another address, provided by the user
1140 2014-04-02 16:51:20 <Happzz> minus some fee, obviously
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1226 2014-04-02 17:37:33 <stqism> Question, anyone know how to manually specify the path to db48 in configure when building bitcoind? It is not autodetected on FreeBSD
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1228 2014-04-02 17:38:00 <stqism> --help doesn't list anything useful
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1233 2014-04-02 17:39:15 <stqism> Normally I would use the port, but I had to modify bitcoind to work around my infrastructure
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1253 2014-04-02 17:48:33 <wumpus> there is no way to set the BDB libs or cflags directly (see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3921), however you can pass the path to there in the generic LDFLAGS/CPPFLAGS
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1321 2014-04-02 18:36:25 <fuegofuego2> EVERYBODY: Hi there! am a Developer. I have some freetime. And I want to get more involved on GitHub. I have some questions about, what are they working right now and what do they need help with att this moment?
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1325 2014-04-02 18:37:46 <fuegofuego2> EVERYBODY: *Involved on BicoinCore
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1328 2014-04-02 18:39:01 <Luke-Jr> fuegofuego2: unit tests
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1331 2014-04-02 18:39:59 <wumpus> there are tons of issues with the build system, we could use help there, see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues?direction=desc&labels=Build+system&page=1&sort=created&state=open
1332 2014-04-02 18:41:19 <fuegofuego2> Luke-Jr: Thanks I see ;)
1333 2014-04-02 18:41:39 <maaku> fuegofuego2: check the issues list on github
1334 2014-04-02 18:42:05 <maaku> but generally finding some part you want to know more about and write some unit tests is always good
1335 2014-04-02 18:42:34 <fuegofuego2> maaku: ok, thanks for the tips ;)
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1340 2014-04-02 18:47:29 <fuegofuego2> Hi there, Is there shortcut to "Get" faster what are they talking about? kind of video or somethink so I can get a BIGGER picture of what is going on?
1341 2014-04-02 18:48:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: I saw your guide
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1343 2014-04-02 18:48:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why patch gitian, rather than just changing what address space VBox uses?
1344 2014-04-02 18:48:46 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: why not? either needs to be patched
1345 2014-04-02 18:48:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Huh?
1346 2014-04-02 18:48:58 <wumpus> changing gitian is easier than changing virtualbox
1347 2014-04-02 18:48:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|VBox allows you to change it
1348 2014-04-02 18:49:09 <wumpus> I didn't see the setting
1349 2014-04-02 18:49:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I don't remember where I changed it, but I did change it
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1351 2014-04-02 18:49:35 <wumpus> in any case I made a pull for gitian to un-hardcode the IPs, so that the patching is no longer needed
1352 2014-04-02 18:49:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google virtualbox change nat ip address
1353 2014-04-02 18:49:47 <gribble> Chapter 6. Virtual networking - VirtualBox: <http://www.virtualbox.org/manual/ch06.html>; Unable to change IP range of NAT network => Fixed in ... - VirtualBox: <https://www.virtualbox.org/ticket/6176>; Chapter 8. VBoxManage - VirtualBox: <http://www.virtualbox.org/manual/ch08.html>
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1355 2014-04-02 18:50:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah, I think it was http://www.virtualbox.org/manual/ch09.html#changenat
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1360 2014-04-02 18:51:01 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|didn't remember it being a vboxmanage thing
1361 2014-04-02 18:51:06 <wumpus> hmm so you need to mess around with some command-line tool, I doubht that's easy on windows
1362 2014-04-02 18:51:20 <wumpus> it's not in the GUI
1363 2014-04-02 18:51:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: just provide the path?
1364 2014-04-02 18:52:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Should be the same for everyone
1365 2014-04-02 18:52:48 <wumpus> in any case, it's not good that gitian hardcodes the IPs, in the end it doesn't matter if you change vbox or gitian
1366 2014-04-02 18:52:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"c:\Program Files\Oracle\VirtualBox\VBoxManage.exe" modifyvm "VM name" --natnet1 "10.11.12/24"
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1368 2014-04-02 18:53:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well, changing vbox is supported
1369 2014-04-02 18:53:13 <fuegofuego2> EVERYBODY: Hello? where can I get som kind of "guiding" to could see better the BIGGER picture of what is going on and to could understand FASTER all the details they are talking on here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues?direction=desc&labels=Build+system&page=1&sort=created&state=open I want to understand a bit the structure of the program right now. Do you now any good source to get some QUICK IDEA? thanks!
1370 2014-04-02 18:53:21 <wumpus> supported with some weird command, yeah...
1371 2014-04-02 18:53:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Weird command? It's just vboxmanage
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1373 2014-04-02 18:55:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Also, personally I'd go more into other options -- for example, KVM for those running on a physical machine (which you mentioned as an option)
1374 2014-04-02 18:55:57 <wumpus> why?
1375 2014-04-02 18:56:03 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|goes back to look at the document again
1376 2014-04-02 18:56:09 <wumpus> I just want to describe one way of doing things that works
1377 2014-04-02 18:56:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(I just skimmed it earlier on my phone)
1378 2014-04-02 18:56:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So why mention physical hardware?
1379 2014-04-02 18:56:35 <wumpus> because it works *THIS WAY* on physical hardware too
1380 2014-04-02 18:56:41 <Ry4an> fuegofuego2: it usually doesn't work that way w/ any open source project.  You lurk on the mailing list for awhile until you understand half of what's being discussed, and then you start with small bug fixes or (as someone suggested earlier unit tests)
1381 2014-04-02 18:56:42 <wumpus> why not mention it?
1382 2014-04-02 18:57:16 <fuegofuego2> Ry4an: Thanks ;)
1383 2014-04-02 18:57:24 <wumpus> I don't want to confuse people with zillion of choices but just provide steps that can be followed
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1386 2014-04-02 18:58:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is "this first section" "Create a new VirtualBox VM"?
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1388 2014-04-02 18:58:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Because if so, maybe mention creating a CD or USB stick for the physical machine?
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1393 2014-04-02 18:59:36 <wumpus> yeah that'd be possible
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1395 2014-04-02 19:00:13 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wonders about the choice of iso
1396 2014-04-02 19:00:16 <wumpus> though I suppose the kind of people that have trouble burning an ISO probably won't be following this guide
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1398 2014-04-02 19:00:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(I'm not familiar with Debian, so I don't know what their releases and images are like)
1399 2014-04-02 19:01:27 <wumpus> netinst is the smallest image, which is appropriate because only a very base system is installed...
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1403 2014-04-02 19:03:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What's https://www.debian.org/distrib/netinst#verysmall ?
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1406 2014-04-02 19:04:27 <wumpus> don't ask me?
1407 2014-04-02 19:04:29 <fuegofuego2> Are there some specific MAILING LIST for developers? or is it only GENERAL MAILING LIST where they talk about other irrelevant info?
1408 2014-04-02 19:05:09 <wumpus> fuegofuego2: http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/
1409 2014-04-02 19:05:31 <fuegofuego2> wumpus: THANKS ;)
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1412 2014-04-02 19:06:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: well, it looks like something smaller than netinst
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1415 2014-04-02 19:07:32 <bedeho> if an output uses SIGHASH_SINGLE, when used as input, how is it matched to the correct output in the new transaction? in particular, what if number of outputs and inputs in new transaction is unequal?
1416 2014-04-02 19:07:51 <kazcw> if there are more outputs than inputs, no problem
1417 2014-04-02 19:09:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bedeho: the input needs to have the same index as the output
1418 2014-04-02 19:09:42 <kazcw> if there is a SIGHASH_SINGLE input with no corresponding output, the standard client refuses to sign such a transaction, but there is a valid way to do so due to a bug: the transaction hash is treated as 1 (the 256-bit little endian value 1). Creating such a transaction would be inadvisable, since the signature could be reused to create other transactions for that pubkey
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1421 2014-04-02 19:11:32 <bedeho> kazcw: if there are more outputs than inputs, then how is matching done? just one by one, and then last input is matched to all remaining outputs?
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1424 2014-04-02 19:11:44 <kazcw> input N matches up to output N
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1426 2014-04-02 19:12:06 <kazcw> (if input N is signed with sighash_single)
1427 2014-04-02 19:12:26 <bedeho> ok
1428 2014-04-02 19:12:56 <bedeho> kazcw: thanks
1429 2014-04-02 19:13:05 <bedeho> michagogo|cloud: thanks
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1435 2014-04-02 19:18:40 <17SAAAABX> wumpus, thanks about the gittian remark!
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1466 2014-04-02 19:46:19 <fuegofuego2> What do you think is a "closer" way to could GET WHATS IS GOING ON on the developer process side of BitcoinCore? Better to read all the previous DEV-BITCOIN-MAILINGLIST https://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/? or to try to compile the BitcoinCore on windows using https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-msw.md? Any recomendations are apreciated! Thanks in advance ;)
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1475 2014-04-02 19:49:00 <kazcw> You should do BOTH. Read how to COMPILE it before you consider DEVELOPING it; then ADVANCE to reading the mailing list, and LEARNING about anything discussed there that you don't already UNDERSTAND.
1476 2014-04-02 19:49:12 <wumpus> I'd suggest trying to get it to compile on Linux first, it's much easier
1477 2014-04-02 19:49:54 <fuegofuego2> I apreciate your answers. Thanks ;)
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1483 2014-04-02 19:51:05 <wumpus> the build-msw document is pretty much outdated, if you still manage to build it anyway and update the document that's of course very welcome
1484 2014-04-02 19:51:10 <fuegofuego2> With EASIER, do you mean FASTER? or FREE OF SILLY PROBLEMS when compiling?
1485 2014-04-02 19:51:29 <bedeho> with SIGHASH_NONE, is sequence field first zeroed out? so that outputs could actually be changed later (if sequence was actually implemented that is)
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1492 2014-04-02 19:53:06 <wumpus> well, literally easier, most developers use linux (and the official cross compile for windows using gitian is also linux-based) so you're less likely to run into hard-to-debug issues
1493 2014-04-02 19:53:58 <kazcw> bedeho: yeah, the nSequences are blanked out for the "unsigned" inputs in a SIGHASH_SINGLE signature. If you want to see exactly what SIGHASH_SINGLE does, check out fHashSingle in CTransactionSignatureSerializer (script.cpp)
1494 2014-04-02 19:54:51 <bedeho> kazcw: yes, I know _single does, was wondering about _none
1495 2014-04-02 19:54:53 <wumpus> (and within linux distributions, ubuntu seems most popular)
1496 2014-04-02 19:55:32 <fuegofuego2> WUMPUS: When you compile with LINUX, do you use VIRTUAL MACHINE, or you BOOT with the Linux OS directly?
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1499 2014-04-02 19:56:08 <kazcw> bedeho: _NONE doesn't lock-in any nSequence values
1500 2014-04-02 19:56:15 <wumpus> fuegofuego2: both is possible
1501 2014-04-02 19:56:22 <wumpus> fuegofuego2: it's all up to you
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1504 2014-04-02 19:58:30 <bedeho> kazcw: cool, thanks!
1505 2014-04-02 19:58:46 <fuegofuego2> WUMPUS : am thinking if I use VIRTUAL MACHINE do I gonna start to have PLENTY of SILLY PROBLEMS with NETWORK CONNECTIONS (and wasting time fixing it)? or sould it no be a relevant ISSUE the network errors on the VIRTUALMACHINE to the COMPILING PROCESS of the bitcoinCore?
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1511 2014-04-02 20:00:01 <Ry4an> fuegofuego2: your arbitrarily capitalizing words is very unusual and makes your text hard to read
1512 2014-04-02 20:00:26 <fuegofuego2> RY4AN: Am Spanish so I try my best.. ^^'
1513 2014-04-02 20:00:48 <fuegofuego2> I can try again to explain my self
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1515 2014-04-02 20:01:04 <Ry4an> no prob.  English a second language is plenty normal in open source, but CAPTIALIZING WHOLE WORDS is perceived as yelling.
1516 2014-04-02 20:02:25 <wumpus> fuegofuego2: you lost me (not sure what network problems you're talking about)
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1521 2014-04-02 20:04:31 <fuegofuego2> WITCH WAY do you see more FREE OF SILLY PROBLEMS (am thinking when it cames to network). To install LINUX directly on my PC, or to install LINUX on the VIRTUALMACHINE. Sould future NETWORK ISSUES affect the COMPILING PROCES of BITCOINCORE if I use VIRTUALMACHINE?
1522 2014-04-02 20:04:45 <wumpus> 'setting up a virtual machine' is a matter of clicking a few buttons these days with tools like virtualbox
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1527 2014-04-02 20:06:05 <wumpus> well using a VM is generally easier than intalling linux as extra OS on your machine directly
1528 2014-04-02 20:06:26 <fuegofuego2> WUMPUS: ok, I will try VIA VIRTUAL MACHINE LINUX. The think is that it drives me MAAD to have to INSTALL 2 times the same OS and have to waste time 2 times.. ^^'
1529 2014-04-02 20:07:20 <fuegofuego2> And I wondered, If you maybe had experienced DIRECTLY issues with networki, when you compile BITCOINCORE with LINUX..
1530 2014-04-02 20:07:34 <fuegofuego2> and try to skip this issues (wasting time) ;)
1531 2014-04-02 20:07:43 <wumpus> (although there are simple UIs for that as well, like wubi...)
1532 2014-04-02 20:07:53 <fuegofuego2> WUMPUS: thanks ;)
1533 2014-04-02 20:08:03 <wumpus> I don't get it, why your obsession with network issues?
1534 2014-04-02 20:08:23 <fuegofuego2> BAD EXPIRIENCES i guess ^^'
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1536 2014-04-02 20:09:09 <fuegofuego2> I remember when I was trying to INSTALL "BackTracker".. I got really maaaad with NETWORK ISSUES.. xD
1537 2014-04-02 20:10:25 <fuegofuego2> UIs? do you mean USER INTERFACE? :-l
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1540 2014-04-02 20:12:15 <fuegofuego2> oh! yes I see. Ok I understand ;)
1541 2014-04-02 20:12:26 <stqism> You might want to stick to point and click GUIs
1542 2014-04-02 20:12:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Wasn't wubi retired several releases ago because it was broken and didn't work well?
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1545 2014-04-02 20:13:15 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: I have no clue... I used it in the past and it worked for me
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1548 2014-04-02 20:14:14 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: I'm just mentioning some possibilities, I really expect people to do their own research
1549 2014-04-02 20:15:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Why are you installing sudo? o_O
1550 2014-04-02 20:16:03 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: it's not installed by default on debian (at least not without the desktop environment)
1551 2014-04-02 20:16:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Really? O_o
1552 2014-04-02 20:17:20 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|looks up python-cheetah parted kpartx bridge-utils
1553 2014-04-02 20:18:12 <wumpus> http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/106529/is-sudo-not-installed-by-default-in-debian  hmm, according to that, only if you don't provide a root password it installs sudo by default
1554 2014-04-02 20:19:05 <wumpus> no idea if it's true, don't feel like trying it out right now
1555 2014-04-02 20:19:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: What's xpartx? packages.debian.org doesn't appear to list it
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1558 2014-04-02 20:22:48 <wumpus> it's kpartx
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1560 2014-04-02 20:24:21 <wumpus> it's used by the vm image creation
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1562 2014-04-02 20:25:51 <fuegofuego2> WUBI seems really INTERESTIN ;) thanks
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1564 2014-04-02 20:26:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: oops, misread
1565 2014-04-02 20:26:36 <chairman_meow> Hello guys. Can we discuss a theoretical altcoin? I don't really want to make an altcoin. more of a thought experiment.
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1567 2014-04-02 20:26:54 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|notices wumpus left out apache2
1568 2014-04-02 20:27:02 <chairman_meow> What if the proof of work was to factor a semiprime?
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1570 2014-04-02 20:27:26 <chairman_meow> I see two problems with it: 1. generate a semiprime without knowing the factors
1571 2014-04-02 20:27:41 <chairman_meow> 2. how to accurately time how long it takes to solve that semiprime
1572 2014-04-02 20:27:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: BTW, if you need --no-check-certificate, why not just put that in the wgetrc?
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1574 2014-04-02 20:27:59 <gavinandresen> chairman_meow: do you konow about http://primecoin.org/static/primecoin-paper.pdf
1575 2014-04-02 20:28:05 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: I followed the process myself so I'm sure that what is mentioned there is what is needed
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1579 2014-04-02 20:28:21 <chairman_meow> gavinandresen: i'll look at it thanks
1580 2014-04-02 20:28:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: Hmm, I wonder what role apache2 plays in gitian, then
1581 2014-04-02 20:28:42 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: none at all AFAIK
1582 2014-04-02 20:28:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So why does devrandom call for it?
1583 2014-04-02 20:28:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|o_O
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1585 2014-04-02 20:29:47 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: I'd hate putting that in wgetrc; if you override security precautions at least do it explicitly
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1587 2014-04-02 20:30:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But if this is just for the gbuild...
1588 2014-04-02 20:30:40 <wumpus> also, if debian some day upgrades the certificates it can be removed
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1590 2014-04-02 20:33:16 <chairman_meow> gavinandresen: i think primecoin.org is down
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1592 2014-04-02 20:34:16 <gavinandresen> chairman_meow: really?  up for me…  but discussion of altcoins is off-topic here
1593 2014-04-02 20:34:44 <chairman_meow> gavinandresen: it loads now heh
1594 2014-04-02 20:36:50 <chairman_meow> gavinandresen: the paper doesnt answer my question heh
1595 2014-04-02 20:37:02 <chairman_meow> I dont think this pulled through
1596 2014-04-02 20:38:31 <gavinandresen> chairman_meow: the http://www.ppcointalk.org/ forums would probably be the best place to get your questions answered.
1597 2014-04-02 20:39:33 <only> ^
1598 2014-04-02 20:39:51 <bedeho> as I understand it, locktime >0 implies tx cannot be mined into block immediately, if so it has to be kept around by nodes until that time? but this is not priced, so why would anyone bother?
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1600 2014-04-02 20:40:53 <bedeho> or I suppose, said differently, does a larger locktime imply need for larger fee?
1601 2014-04-02 20:41:07 <sipa> bedeho: nodes will actually not accept them into their mempool until very shortly before the locktime expires
1602 2014-04-02 20:41:27 <sipa> moving the responsibility for keeping it around to the beneficiary of the transaction
1603 2014-04-02 20:41:35 <bedeho> ah ok
1604 2014-04-02 20:41:48 <chairman_meow> gavinandresen: Apparently, primecoin searches for cunningham chains. not factors of semiprimes.
1605 2014-04-02 20:41:58 <sipa> chairman_meow: yes yes, offtopic here
1606 2014-04-02 20:42:00 <chairman_meow> but alt coins are off topic, so I'll stop now hwh
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1623 2014-04-02 20:51:49 <bedeho> sipa: so the sequence field (if it was used) would only count for the very brief period of time a locked tx was in mempool before being mined?
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1625 2014-04-02 20:53:04 <sipa> right, it becomes quite useless
1626 2014-04-02 20:54:00 <maaku> bedeho: sequence field is pretty much 100% useless at this point...
1627 2014-04-02 20:54:10 <bedeho> :D
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1630 2014-04-02 20:56:24 <maaku> although there was an interesting proposal to use it for colored coin tagging
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1664 2014-04-02 21:23:45 <definatelynotsom> Hi
1665 2014-04-02 21:24:14 <definatelynotsom> I need transactions from the top 3 exchanges.  Is there a suitable API?
1666 2014-04-02 21:24:37 <definatelynotsom> I was told to ask here, after I called someone a bag of dicks.  I feel kind of bad about that.
1667 2014-04-02 21:24:47 <tcatm> Something like telnet api.bitcoincharts.com 27007 ?
1668 2014-04-02 21:25:12 franz_ has joined
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1670 2014-04-02 21:25:38 franz_ is now known as franz_x
1671 2014-04-02 21:25:41 <franz_x> hi
1672 2014-04-02 21:25:44 <franz_x> have a probelm where
1673 2014-04-02 21:25:51 adam3us has joined
1674 2014-04-02 21:26:15 <definatelynotsom> tcatm - damn i forgot about them - tanks this could help tremendously
1675 2014-04-02 21:26:19 <franz_x> i have an unconfirmed transaction hanging in the blockchane
1676 2014-04-02 21:26:19 <franz_x> https://blockchain.info/address/1M5CGYoGZyzjr22Fxpw7dqSNymbtcsyXSX
1677 2014-04-02 21:26:25 <franz_x> since 2 days
1678 2014-04-02 21:26:34 <sipa> franz_x: if it's unconfirmed, it is not in the blockchain
1679 2014-04-02 21:26:49 <franz_x> this is hte second attempt alreayd, the first one dissapeared after 4 days about
1680 2014-04-02 21:27:13 <franz_x> ok, then tell me why this happens
1681 2014-04-02 21:27:24 <definatelynotsom> oh man
1682 2014-04-02 21:27:25 <sipa> it has an insignificant fee
1683 2014-04-02 21:27:29 <definatelynotsom> tcatm thanks man
1684 2014-04-02 21:27:38 <definatelynotsom> tcatm I think I love you
1685 2014-04-02 21:27:41 <franz_x> there are transactions wiht 0 fee working too
1686 2014-04-02 21:27:56 <tcatm> definatelynotsom: If you need historic dumps: http://api.bitcoincharts.com/v1/csv/
1687 2014-04-02 21:27:56 <sipa> franz_x: exceptions, yes
1688 2014-04-02 21:28:08 <sipa> franz_x: if they are of sufficient priority, but yours certainly isn'
1689 2014-04-02 21:28:14 <sipa> franz_x: what software created it?
1690 2014-04-02 21:28:27 <maaku> what software relayed it?
1691 2014-04-02 21:29:00 <franz_x> i had some old paperwallets, i cleeared them manually on brainwallet doing transaction myself
1692 2014-04-02 21:29:18 <sipa> it has 10 satoshi fee
1693 2014-04-02 21:29:21 <maaku> franz_x: you may need more than 0.0000001 fee
1694 2014-04-02 21:29:35 <definatelynotsom> tcatm one problem - the limit is once every 15 minutes - how do fix this issue?  I want to show real time trades, or near enough on my app D:
1695 2014-04-02 21:29:37 <franz_x> ok, so when will the thing timeout ?
1696 2014-04-02 21:29:40 <maaku> it's effectively being treated as a no-fee transaction
1697 2014-04-02 21:29:49 <franz_x> so that i can spend it again ?
1698 2014-04-02 21:29:51 <sipa> even version 0.9 (which decreased the relay fee by a factor 10) requires 1000 satoshi per kilobyte
1699 2014-04-02 21:29:58 <maaku> franz_x: no such thing as a timeout
1700 2014-04-02 21:29:59 <sipa> franz_x: in theory no, in practice yes
1701 2014-04-02 21:30:00 <tcatm> definatelynotsom: The telnet stream is realtime.
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1704 2014-04-02 21:30:18 <franz_x> but if there is no timeout, this left account is "lost"?
1705 2014-04-02 21:30:23 <definatelynotsom> but if I use this code and get 100 visiors there will be 100 requests and my domain will be black listed = (
1706 2014-04-02 21:30:51 <sipa> reading from a telnet stream is not "a request"
1707 2014-04-02 21:30:54 chairman_meow has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1708 2014-04-02 21:31:03 <maaku> franz_x: you'll need to double-spend it in a larger transaction
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1711 2014-04-02 21:31:10 <franz_x> makku: tried this
1712 2014-04-02 21:31:18 <franz_x> i importet into my bitcoin wallet
1713 2014-04-02 21:31:24 chairman_meow has joined
1714 2014-04-02 21:31:24 <franz_x> and made a bigger transaciton
1715 2014-04-02 21:31:31 gdoteof has joined
1716 2014-04-02 21:31:39 <franz_x> but this never made it to the blockchain either
1717 2014-04-02 21:31:39 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1718 2014-04-02 21:31:43 <gdoteof> i am trying to determine if my wallet has the private key for a given address
1719 2014-04-02 21:31:45 zcopley has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1720 2014-04-02 21:31:48 <gdoteof> with bitcoind
1721 2014-04-02 21:31:50 <franz_x> tried 2 times, had to to a rebuild of my TX
1722 2014-04-02 21:32:07 chairman_meow has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1723 2014-04-02 21:32:10 <tcatm> definatelynotsom: Also, there's no rate limiting active at the moment. However, if I notice someone causing too much traffic I'll blacklist IPs without notice. That happened twice in three years now.
1724 2014-04-02 21:32:14 <sipa> franz_x: which software?
1725 2014-04-02 21:32:20 <franz_x> bitcoin-qt
1726 2014-04-02 21:32:25 <franz_x> 0.9
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1731 2014-04-02 21:33:20 <franz_x> i had then crazy things liek "conflicted transactions" and so
1732 2014-04-02 21:34:00 <sipa> yeah, bitcoin-qt will consider it a double spend
1733 2014-04-02 21:34:12 <franz_x> ok, but how to come over the sitation ?
1734 2014-04-02 21:34:22 <franz_x> i can not shoot the tx again
1735 2014-04-02 21:34:25 <franz_x> as itis denyd
1736 2014-04-02 21:34:33 <franz_x> and i hang as nobody confirms
1737 2014-04-02 21:34:53 <sipa> you'll need to use the raw transaction api to create the conflicting transaction
1738 2014-04-02 21:34:56 <sipa> or other software
1739 2014-04-02 21:35:03 <sipa> it's not a use case that is well supported now
1740 2014-04-02 21:35:05 <franz_x> good, but nobody is taking it. i have tried this
1741 2014-04-02 21:35:15 <sipa> using the raw transaction api?
1742 2014-04-02 21:35:30 <definatelynotsom> tcatm - my app (non commercial) could you send me a heads up if you are unhappy with my use? I should only get about 100 hits a week i think
1743 2014-04-02 21:35:49 <franz_x> yes, i did this on  http://brainwallet.org/#tx
1744 2014-04-02 21:35:55 chairman_meow has joined
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1746 2014-04-02 21:36:22 <definatelynotsom> ill msg you
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1748 2014-04-02 21:36:29 <sipa> franz_x: can you paste the transaction?
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1750 2014-04-02 21:36:51 <franz_x> "if i would have stored it ..."
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1752 2014-04-02 21:37:11 <franz_x> sipa,
1753 2014-04-02 21:37:27 <definatelynotsom> when its done, Ill hook it up tonight
1754 2014-04-02 21:37:29 <franz_x> so when i try to sent this 0.0004 with 0.0001 tx fee it should work ?
1755 2014-04-02 21:37:35 <sipa> maybe
1756 2014-04-02 21:37:40 <sipa> it is a very tiny amount
1757 2014-04-02 21:37:50 <definatelynotsom> thanks again for your help tcatm
1758 2014-04-02 21:37:54 <sipa> oh
1759 2014-04-02 21:37:55 <franz_x> ok, tried
1760 2014-04-02 21:37:56 <definatelynotsom> its appreciated!
1761 2014-04-02 21:37:57 <sipa> i missed a digit
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1763 2014-04-02 21:38:14 <franz_x> i tried to shoot from brainwallet, the error was then
1764 2014-04-02 21:38:22 <franz_x> "Transaction contains non standart zero output"
1765 2014-04-02 21:38:40 <sipa> then you made an error
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1768 2014-04-02 21:41:14 <franz_x> sipa, when you tell me how to delete the private key out of my wallet in bitcoin-qt
1769 2014-04-02 21:41:24 <sipa> that's not relevant
1770 2014-04-02 21:41:27 <franz_x> i give you the private key of hte account and the coins are yours
1771 2014-04-02 21:41:41 <sipa> i don't care
1772 2014-04-02 21:42:03 <franz_x> you do not want the 0.004 coins ?
1773 2014-04-02 21:42:09 <franz_x> 0.0004
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1776 2014-04-02 21:42:40 <sipa> not worth the trouble
1777 2014-04-02 21:42:47 <franz_x> ;:-(
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1781 2014-04-02 21:44:06 <franz_x> sipa, is here not some kind of timeout when a nonconfirmed TX will be dropped ?
1782 2014-04-02 21:44:19 <franz_x> so that i have eg. to wait 1 week and it will go away
1783 2014-04-02 21:44:25 <sipa> in theory, no, and there can't be
1784 2014-04-02 21:44:29 <sipa> in practice, there will be
1785 2014-04-02 21:44:40 <sipa> as node restart, new nodes join, ... who don't know about it
1786 2014-04-02 21:45:36 <franz_x> so it could hang for month until some miningpool picks it
1787 2014-04-02 21:46:00 <sipa> just try
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1790 2014-04-02 21:47:11 <franz_x> thats really shitty
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1792 2014-04-02 21:48:08 <sipa> yeah, dealing with non-confirming transactions is a really badly implemented use case right now
1793 2014-04-02 21:48:19 <sipa> and it will be needed more in the future, i expect
1794 2014-04-02 21:48:30 <franz_x> yes
1795 2014-04-02 21:48:45 <franz_x> as it can make your wallet hang
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1843 2014-04-02 22:17:43 <SoftwareMechanic> How long did it take before you really were able to grok bitcoin at a deep level
1844 2014-04-02 22:17:53 <SoftwareMechanic> I've been working with it 2 weeks and I'm still confused as hell
1845 2014-04-02 22:18:15 <sipa> perfectly normal :)
1846 2014-04-02 22:18:54 <SoftwareMechanic> good to hear :0
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1923 2014-04-02 23:25:02 <SoftwareMechanic> What's the best coding interface for creating multisig transactaions atm?  I was using Armory's armoryengine.py, but it doesn't look like creating multisig is supported.
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1928 2014-04-02 23:28:51 <shazow> hi there; I'm trying to get a better understanding of the protocol, is there any literature someone could link me to which explains why it's necessary for TxIn to require a previous_output outpoint?
1929 2014-04-02 23:29:54 <kazcw> you can only spend money you have received
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1931 2014-04-02 23:30:51 <shazow> of course; but i'm presuming (perhaps incorrectly) that miners would need to scan the blockchain for all recent transactions from the TxIn addresses regardless of which outpoint you cite either way?
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1934 2014-04-02 23:31:16 <kazcw> there is no TxIn address
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1936 2014-04-02 23:31:42 <gmaxwell> shazow: the bitcoin system really has little to no concept of addresses, it tracks the coins directly.
1937 2014-04-02 23:31:58 <gmaxwell> This makes the behavior under reorginization clear and determinstic.
1938 2014-04-02 23:32:15 <shazow> mmm I think you might have spotted the gap in my understanding, let me reread some things :)
1939 2014-04-02 23:32:19 <shazow> thanks!
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1959 2014-04-02 23:53:56 <netg_> gmaxwell: your are the best
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1961 2014-04-02 23:54:23 <netg_> big respect 4 all your work
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