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  15 2014-04-03 00:10:04 <petertodd> gmaxwell: balance based systems have clear and deterministic behavior under reorganizations too you know, provided they have the concept of transactions. Of course, whether or not the clear and deterministic behavior happens to be useful or safe is another matter...
  16 2014-04-03 00:11:26 <gmaxwell> only determinstic once they're in the chain though, the unspent transactions are more non-determinstic is mostly what I was thinking about. I'm not quite sure how to clearly express the difference, though I know you understand it too.
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  19 2014-04-03 00:13:05 <petertodd> yeah, that's perfectly fair to say
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  24 2014-04-03 00:16:29 <petertodd> though note that with regard to unconfirmed transactions, if you have miner validation that doesn't allow a address balance to go negative, then unconfirmed balance adjusting transactions are no big deal - the exact order is non-deterministic, but the outcome is still sane
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  27 2014-04-03 00:20:28 <petertodd> also, people often forget the deeper issue that unless you consume globally unique transaction outputs it's non-trivial to have a secure balance-based transation mechanism - you have to ensure a signature authorizing a spend can only be used once
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  31 2014-04-03 00:26:59 <kazcw> what about storing a nSpendCount with the balance and signing it as part of the TxIn?
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  34 2014-04-03 00:29:35 * gavinandresen ponders the implications of letting the miners choose the order of a maze of dependent unconfirmed transactions in a balance-based system….  probably either a DoS attack lurking there or some weird, surprising "your transaction won't confirm unless you increase your balance" behavior.
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  37 2014-04-03 00:31:39 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: one problem that is really annyoing is say you want to reissue a transaction in order to revise it or pay a greater fee... in a plain balance based system there appears to be no safe way to do this (except if you always spend all your coins for a given balance..., or if it has some other mechenism).
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  39 2014-04-03 00:32:33 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea consider a 'simplistic' anti-replay mechnism that tried to just not allow an identical spend to be repeated, and how that would have interacted with DSA malleability. 0_o
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  41 2014-04-03 00:33:00 <kazcw> gmaxwell: wouldn't the nSpendCount nonce solve that? reuse the nonce to get highlander-semantics
  42 2014-04-03 00:33:11 <kazcw> ("there can be only one")
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  45 2014-04-03 00:34:12 <SoftwareMechanic> What's the difference between a "public key x" and a "public key y", and a pubkey (as shown by bitcoind) ?
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  47 2014-04-03 00:34:25 <kazcw> an unconfirmed spend would hold up any later spends, which is just like unconifirmed change
  48 2014-04-03 00:34:32 <SoftwareMechanic> I'm confused as to how the pubkey is generated, cause I was thinking it would be 128 bytes
  49 2014-04-03 00:34:39 <gmaxwell> kazcw: perhaps, as I said "additional mechenisms"  but I suspect that when you extend that logically to the most flexible form (e.g. being able to pick and choose a mix of conflicts) you actually end up with something very much like bitcoin.
  50 2014-04-03 00:34:44 <maaku> SoftwareMechanic: a public key is a elliptic curve point, which has an x and y coordinate
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  52 2014-04-03 00:34:48 <petertodd> gmaxwell: great example! systems like mastercoin can only get away with it because they're sitting on top of an underlying transaction-based system
  53 2014-04-03 00:35:11 <SoftwareMechanic> @maaku, ya I've got that part.  But how do you go from that to a "pubkey"
  54 2014-04-03 00:35:28 <maaku> SoftwareMechanic: that's all a pubkey is
  55 2014-04-03 00:35:31 <SoftwareMechanic> I guess I'm not really sure what the output of bitcoindd i showing me
  56 2014-04-03 00:35:31 <petertodd> gmaxwell: transactions also save you from having to have some huge "spent tx" list - sequential transactions can be easily pruned
  57 2014-04-03 00:36:03 <SoftwareMechanic> @maaku That's what I though, but if you run bitcoind, the pubkey shown is only 64 bytes long, not 128
  58 2014-04-03 00:36:25 <SoftwareMechanic> It's like it's only showing half of the public key
  59 2014-04-03 00:36:32 <kazcw> SoftwareMechanic: the y of a bitcoin pubkey can be derived from the x, so that's actually what it is
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  61 2014-04-03 00:36:47 <SoftwareMechanic> aahh, interesting
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  63 2014-04-03 00:37:03 <SoftwareMechanic> since the curve contants are well known
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  65 2014-04-03 00:38:04 <gmaxwell> kazcw: well technically you need one additional bit of data to derrive y from x. :)
  66 2014-04-03 00:38:27 <kazcw> SoftwareMechanic: also, compressed format is 32 bytes, uncompressed is 64. Twice that would be the number of hexadecimal chars, if that's what you're looking at
  67 2014-04-03 00:38:28 <gavinandresen> SoftwareMechanic: public keys should be 33 or 65 bytes long (one byte, then 32 bytes for x OR one byte, then 32 for x and 32 for y).  I think.  eight times 32 == 256… yes, that's right.
  68 2014-04-03 00:39:07 <SoftwareMechanic> ah, ok, I was off by one on my editor column count
  69 2014-04-03 00:39:34 <gmaxwell> that additional prefix byte will encode that extra bit if only the x-corrid is provided.
  70 2014-04-03 00:40:19 <SoftwareMechanic> man, this stuff goes deep
  71 2014-04-03 00:40:43 <gavinandresen> … and new versions of bitcoin core always generate compressed (33-byte) keys, so unless you're using an old wallet that's what you'll see
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  76 2014-04-03 00:41:56 <SoftwareMechanic> @gavinandresen So what I'm seeing out of 'bitcoind validateaddress' would be the 2 33-byte contatenated keys is what I think I'm hearing.
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  79 2014-04-03 00:44:46 <gavinandresen> SoftwareMechanic: umm…. if you are validating a plain-old, begins-with-1 bitcoin address, then you'll get either 33 bytes (0x01 and then 256-bit-x-public-key-coordinate, if I recall correctly) or 65 bytes (0x03/0x04 and then 2 256-bit coordinates)
  80 2014-04-03 00:45:16 <gavinandresen> I don't remember what validateaddress does with p2sh multisig addresses (that begin with '3'), I'd have to look.
  81 2014-04-03 00:45:44 <SoftwareMechanic> This is for the plain single
  82 2014-04-03 00:46:42 <SoftwareMechanic> Looks like it's the 65 byte form, although it's prepended by a 0x02, presumably because it's a testnet address
  83 2014-04-03 00:48:01 <SoftwareMechanic> for multisig it gives a 'hex' string, which I'm presuming is the p2sh script contents
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  86 2014-04-03 00:49:47 <kazcw> SoftwareMechanic: is the pubkey 65 bytes, or 65 hex characters?
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  88 2014-04-03 00:50:45 <SoftwareMechanic> kazcw: yes, I am an idiot, hex characters
  89 2014-04-03 00:51:04 <SoftwareMechanic> I've looked at way to much hex today
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  92 2014-04-03 00:53:25 <Zarutian> SoftwareMechanic: 0x43555253455321
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  94 2014-04-03 00:53:48 <SoftwareMechanic> Your not helping
  95 2014-04-03 00:53:50 <SoftwareMechanic> :)
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 118 2014-04-03 01:31:32 <BCB> what happens to transactions in the mempool after they are included in a block?
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 120 2014-04-03 01:33:27 <phantomcircuit> BCB, they are removed from the mempool
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 159 2014-04-03 02:36:55 <arge> hi
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 161 2014-04-03 02:37:12 <arge> good night
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 214 2014-04-03 03:44:23 <tlrobinson> does anyone keep an archive of orophaned blocks?
 215 2014-04-03 03:44:34 <tlrobinson> orphaned
 216 2014-04-03 03:44:53 <vetch> orphaned blocks aren't written to disk.
 217 2014-04-03 03:45:01 <Luke-Jr> blocks aren't orphaned, either.
 218 2014-04-03 03:45:20 <Luke-Jr> they may arrive orphan, but never become orphan ;)
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 221 2014-04-03 03:45:50 <Luke-Jr> presumably tlrobinson means stale/rejected blocks
 222 2014-04-03 03:46:16 <tlrobinson> errr yeah
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 241 2014-04-03 04:03:05 <joelsbeard> Anyone know a resource on creating your own keys for an address?
 242 2014-04-03 04:03:19 <joelsbeard> Out of curiosity not necesity
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 245 2014-04-03 04:04:39 <kazcw> What do you mean? You can create an address from a public key, which you create from a private key. You cannot create a public or private key from an address.
 246 2014-04-03 04:05:14 <joelsbeard> Yeah, I would like to create a private / public key pair which I would then use for a wallet address
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 250 2014-04-03 04:07:15 <kazcw> there are several steps involved - generating the keypair, compressing the public key (optional/recommended), hashing that key, base58check-encoding the hash
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 254 2014-04-03 04:09:15 <joelsbeard> What would you use to create the keys? Is that something I would do with openssl? Do people create their own keys with something they wrote themselves?
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 263 2014-04-03 04:14:03 <Luke-Jr> joelsbeard: usually they use a bitcoin wallet
 264 2014-04-03 04:14:12 <Luke-Jr> keys are not something users mess with
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 267 2014-04-03 04:15:37 <joelsbeard> Yeah, I would like to as an exercise only
 268 2014-04-03 04:15:50 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1 is a library
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 272 2014-04-03 04:18:30 <shazow> joelsbeard: also this is a nice high-level library for messing around with things like generating your own wallets/keys: https://github.com/onenameio/coinkit
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 274 2014-04-03 04:19:53 <joelsbeard> Nice, thanks Luke-Jr, and shazow
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 278 2014-04-03 04:24:29 <dgenr8> What would you say defines the bitcoin protocol.  The behavior of the reference client, or something else?
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 281 2014-04-03 04:27:12 <shazow> dgenr8: (I'm probably not the best person to answer this, but) I suspect it's something between the specification in the public documentation and the actual implementation as held by the majority of the computing power in the network.
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 284 2014-04-03 04:30:01 <shazow> probably analogous to asking the same question about any other protocol like TCP or HTTP (though some are adhered more closely to the spec than others)
 285 2014-04-03 04:32:26 <maaku> dgenr8: the behavior of the reference client
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 287 2014-04-03 04:33:29 <maaku> anything else written about the bitcoin protocol is not normative
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 290 2014-04-03 04:33:53 <maaku> (e.g. look at BIP 42)
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 293 2014-04-03 04:34:46 <dgenr8> or at least not complete, since ref client has behavior not specified elsewhere
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 295 2014-04-03 04:35:25 <vetch> there's even cases where the comments in the bitcoin source are different to how the code behaves.
 296 2014-04-03 04:35:54 <dgenr8> you should fix those comments :)
 297 2014-04-03 04:38:10 jMyles has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 298 2014-04-03 04:38:27 <dgenr8> So, for example: reference client appears to have no way to include a transaction in a block, unless it is in the mempool.
 299 2014-04-03 04:38:54 <dgenr8> And there is no way to get a transaction into the mempool, unless is passes IsStandard
 300 2014-04-03 04:38:56 <maaku> dgenr8: it will be a very long time until the bitcoin consensus code is fully understood, again read BIP 42 if you haven't already (bitcoin it turns out, does not have a 21 million cap)
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 303 2014-04-03 04:39:49 <maaku> dgenr8: that's not consensus code :)
 304 2014-04-03 04:40:00 <dgenr8> meaning?
 305 2014-04-03 04:40:00 <maaku> IsStandard is not bitcoin protocol
 306 2014-04-03 04:40:17 <dgenr8> It is in the reference client
 307 2014-04-03 04:40:26 <maaku> there is a subset of the bitcoin code which controls whether a block and its transactions are valid or not
 308 2014-04-03 04:40:43 <maaku> *that* is consensus code, aka the bitcoin protocol
 309 2014-04-03 04:41:02 <dgenr8> Yes I was just revieweing CreateBlock.  It looks for transactions in the mempool
 310 2014-04-03 04:41:11 <maaku> for the other stuff, it doesn't matter
 311 2014-04-03 04:41:25 <maaku> you could have a client with no concept of a mempool, and that'd be fine
 312 2014-04-03 04:42:26 <dgenr8> But could you have a client that includes transactions in a block, which were not either created by it, or relayed to it via the bitcoin network
 313 2014-04-03 04:42:42 <maaku> dgenr8: sure, of course
 314 2014-04-03 04:42:49 <maaku> push a transaction to Eligius and that's exactly what happens
 315 2014-04-03 04:42:51 <dgenr8> ... something which is not possible with the reference client
 316 2014-04-03 04:43:34 <dgenr8> So what Eligius does defines the standard then
 317 2014-04-03 04:43:44 <maaku> no, no no
 318 2014-04-03 04:43:58 <maaku> the bitcoin protocol is a *subset* of the reference client
 319 2014-04-03 04:44:12 <maaku> Eligius has to comply with that subset 100%, or its blocks will be orphaned
 320 2014-04-03 04:44:51 <maaku> but Luke-Jr is free to do whatever he wants with the other aspects (e.g. relay policy) for his Eligius pool
 321 2014-04-03 04:45:11 <dgenr8> This conversation seems to indicate that what Eligius does is a superset of what the reference client does
 322 2014-04-03 04:45:48 <maaku> dgenr8: no, a superset of the consensus code of the reference client, which is itself a subset of what the reference client does
 323 2014-04-03 04:45:57 <maaku> does that make sense?
 324 2014-04-03 04:46:21 <dgenr8> So CreateBlock is not part of the consensus code?
 325 2014-04-03 04:46:26 Ryan52 has joined
 326 2014-04-03 04:46:28 <maaku> if you drew a graph it'd look like a venn diagram
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 329 2014-04-03 04:47:12 <maaku> there are a few things CreateBlock does that are consensus-critical, e.g. difficulty adjustments
 330 2014-04-03 04:47:20 <maaku> but the rest (e.g. transaction selection) is not
 331 2014-04-03 04:47:26 <Luke-Jr> CreateBlock is not part of the consensus code. at all.
 332 2014-04-03 04:47:30 <Luke-Jr> AcceptBlock is.
 333 2014-04-03 04:47:44 <aynstein> there is a way to generate a block on demand on testnet right?
 334 2014-04-03 04:47:52 <Luke-Jr> aynstein: almost
 335 2014-04-03 04:47:57 <dgenr8> How does one determine what is part of consensus code?
 336 2014-04-03 04:47:59 <maaku> Luke-Jr: well CreateBlock must create something that AcceptBlock accepts ;)
 337 2014-04-03 04:48:13 <maaku> dgenr8: by logic
 338 2014-04-03 04:48:32 <aynstein> Luke-Jr: can you give me a starting point to learn about it?
 339 2014-04-03 04:48:33 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: if the reference software rejects it as invalid, you've violated consensus code. :P
 340 2014-04-03 04:48:47 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: so for example, a theoretical bug in LevelDB could be consensus code.
 341 2014-04-03 04:49:11 <Luke-Jr> aynstein: the rule is "if block time is > 20 minutes past the previous block time, it is allowed to PoW at bdiff 1"
 342 2014-04-03 04:49:15 go1111111 has joined
 343 2014-04-03 04:49:24 <aynstein> ahhh
 344 2014-04-03 04:51:18 <aynstein> i thought i remembered some sort of gen feature in bitcoind... besides the (testnet) diff 1 reset, nothing comes to mind?
 345 2014-04-03 04:51:31 <dgenr8> Luke-Jr: by invalid, are you referring to a particular class of error message, the result of a certain function or set of functions, or ...
 346 2014-04-03 04:51:52 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: I mean "invalid".
 347 2014-04-03 04:51:56 <maaku> dgenr8: AcceptBlock() returns false
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 349 2014-04-03 04:52:17 <Luke-Jr> aynstein: that's regtest mode, not testnet
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 353 2014-04-03 04:52:50 <dgenr8> Luke-Jr: tautology
 354 2014-04-03 04:53:32 <maaku> dgenr8: how?
 355 2014-04-03 04:53:33 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: don't ask obvious/dumb questions then
 356 2014-04-03 04:53:56 <maaku> dgenr8: grep "INVALID" main.cpp
 357 2014-04-03 04:54:39 tlrobinson has joined
 358 2014-04-03 04:54:56 <maaku> but take note that those explicit tests don't define what is valid or not
 359 2014-04-03 04:55:48 <maaku> if some weird bug in a dependent library causes bitcoind's validation thread to crash with an unhandled exception, whatever triggers that exception makes the block invalid
 360 2014-04-03 04:56:00 <maaku> and that's a consensus rule we didn't know about
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 367 2014-04-03 05:03:26 <dgenr8> The reference client is complete, ie capable of running the entire network from generation to wallets, by itself
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 369 2014-04-03 05:03:56 <dgenr8> It is often said that bitcoin is open source.  So tell me...
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 372 2014-04-03 05:07:08 <dgenr8> If I wanted to modify the source to check that a transaction which has never been seen on the network, spends the same inputs as one that has
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 374 2014-04-03 05:07:24 <dgenr8> the public transaction has priority
 375 2014-04-03 05:07:47 <dgenr8> It's a rhetorical question becuase with the reference client alone, it already is not possible
 376 2014-04-03 05:08:05 <kazcw> that doesn't make any sense
 377 2014-04-03 05:09:11 <dgenr8> It doesn't?  I mean priority for inclusion in a new block.
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 380 2014-04-03 05:16:31 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: if you didn't see it, you won't include it..
 381 2014-04-03 05:17:02 <dgenr8> Indeed.
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 383 2014-04-03 05:17:45 <Luke-Jr> so, there is no modification needed
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 387 2014-04-03 05:18:49 <dgenr8> So you would not be opposed to such a rule.  Provided, of course, that the public transaction was seen.
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 392 2014-04-03 05:19:59 <maaku> dgenr8: I'm not sure what you're asking
 393 2014-04-03 05:20:01 jMyles has joined
 394 2014-04-03 05:20:08 <emowataji> how would it get the transaction if its never been seen on the network?
 395 2014-04-03 05:20:26 <dgenr8> Excellent question
 396 2014-04-03 05:20:34 <Belxjander> maaku: I think it is verification of existing transactions against cached-for-inclusion?
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 398 2014-04-03 05:21:16 <maaku> Belxjander: existing meaning in the chain? then the conflicting transaction is not in the mempool
 399 2014-04-03 05:21:37 <maaku> dgenr8: the reference client ignores transactions double-spending inputs of transactions already in the mempool
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 401 2014-04-03 05:21:45 <dgenr8> There are a few ways.  Email, carrier pigeon, websockets...
 402 2014-04-03 05:22:19 <maaku> dgenr8: then you know which one you received first, and that one is the one the reference client uses
 403 2014-04-03 05:22:45 <maaku> for block creation that is
 404 2014-04-03 05:23:16 airq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 405 2014-04-03 05:24:03 <dgenr8> maaku:  Yes.  I think that behavior gains additional importance as 0-conf transactions become more common.
 406 2014-04-03 05:25:00 tlrobinson has quit (Quit: tlrobinson)
 407 2014-04-03 05:25:13 <maaku> dgenr8: 0-conf transactions will not and should not become more common
 408 2014-04-03 05:25:17 <maaku> they cannot be secured
 409 2014-04-03 05:25:29 jMyles has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 410 2014-04-03 05:25:31 <maaku> reacting to zeroconf transactions is a money-losing mistake
 411 2014-04-03 05:25:46 tlrobinson has joined
 412 2014-04-03 05:25:56 <dgenr8> Yet there is a lot of activity around the payment protocol - for buying coffee, etc.
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 415 2014-04-03 05:29:45 <maaku> dgenr8: because the effort and risk of double-spending an in-person, small-value PoS transaction is very high
 416 2014-04-03 05:30:00 <maaku> but you could do it, and do it easily with the right connections
 417 2014-04-03 05:31:32 <maaku> i doubt zero-conf transactions for high value electronics items will be so commonplace
 418 2014-04-03 05:32:00 <Luke-Jr> maaku: meh, it can be. just get ID
 419 2014-04-03 05:32:27 <Luke-Jr> and sue if you're double-spetn
 420 2014-04-03 05:32:56 <dgenr8> Somebody will create a kit to spend to themselves in a non-standard transaction carrier pigeoned to miner of their choice, if they haven't already
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 423 2014-04-03 05:34:28 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: so? disputing a credit card isn't much easier
 424 2014-04-03 05:34:31 <Luke-Jr> harder*
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 429 2014-04-03 05:36:15 <dgenr8> Ain't nobody to call when you're double-spent out of a latte
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 431 2014-04-03 05:37:22 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: nor when your latte charge is disputed
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 434 2014-04-03 05:37:42 <dgenr8> But seriously, I think businesses know this instinctively already, and it is holding back adoption.
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 439 2014-04-03 05:39:01 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: are you trolling?
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 442 2014-04-03 05:40:02 <dgenr8> Only for myself.
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 454 2014-04-03 05:50:46 <[-krypto-]> we are staring a news channel, #AltNews you guys are welcome to join and to give updates on your projects
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 606 2014-04-03 07:53:30 <Diablo-D3> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/01/us-bitcoin-mtgox-karpeles-idUSBREA3021920140401
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 834 2014-04-03 11:49:27 <olalonde> question here
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 836 2014-04-03 11:49:48 <olalonde> what exactly does bitcoind store in the block files? does it store the raw blocks? does it order them in some way?
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 845 2014-04-03 11:55:49 <vetch> olalonde: just raw blocks concatenated and an index of where each block is on the disk. the order isn't deterministic and isn't the same across instances.
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 849 2014-04-03 11:56:47 <olalonde> vetch: ok thanks. what about orphan blocks / blocks that are not part of the main chain... are they ever deleted?
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 854 2014-04-03 11:58:35 <vetch> olalonde: side chains remain untouched. orphans aren't ever written to disk as they aren't part of the chain by definition.
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 857 2014-04-03 12:00:47 <olalonde> vetch: ok thanks. so in theory if you downloaded the blockchain from scratch you'd save some disk space right? or are sidechains downloaded as well?
 858 2014-04-03 12:00:50 <wumpus>  you can execute bitcoind with -printblocktree to show the tree of stored blocks (note, broken in 0.9, but fixed in master)
 859 2014-04-03 12:01:08 <olalonde> cool
 860 2014-04-03 12:01:53 <wumpus> olalonde: there is a linearize.py script in the repository that can be used to create a linear bootstrap file, you could then delete the blocks and re-bootstrap from that
 861 2014-04-03 12:01:53 <vetch> olalonde: probably if you were comparing a very old and very new node there might be a difference but I don't imagine it would be huge. early blocks are fairly small.
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 863 2014-04-03 12:02:17 <olalonde> wumpus: cool
 864 2014-04-03 12:02:22 <olalonde> right
 865 2014-04-03 12:02:25 <wumpus> then again you'll save only very little, no large side-chains exist
 866 2014-04-03 12:02:46 <wumpus> (at least, I've never seen them...)
 867 2014-04-03 12:02:48 <olalonde> right.. I'm just trying to confirm I understood correctly.. not asking a practical question :)
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 870 2014-04-03 12:04:13 <vetch> compressing the blocks on disk would probably afford you more space if you could do it transparently to the node. they seem to compress surprisingly well.
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 872 2014-04-03 12:04:54 <vetch> they're basically never accessed so read latency isn't a massive issue.
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 874 2014-04-03 12:05:54 <wumpus> blocks are read on a per-block granularity, so you need to make sure that you compress per block, compressing the entire file would not be useful 
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 876 2014-04-03 12:07:06 <wumpus> (ie, most compression methods don't allow for seeking in the middle of a file, so the compression blocks would have to align with bitcoin blocks)
 877 2014-04-03 12:07:09 <vetch> presumably most of the savings are coming from duplicate public keys, having the compression dictionary spanning files would have the most impact in that case.
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 879 2014-04-03 12:07:41 <wumpus> so, as concluded many times, probably not worth it for the 15-20% you'd save
 880 2014-04-03 12:07:51 <vetch> probably not worth the developer time to work it out. disk space is cheap c
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 882 2014-04-03 12:08:45 <vetch> still could be fun for distributing the bootstrap files.
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 884 2014-04-03 12:09:19 <wumpus> nothing prevents you from compressing the bootstrap file already
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 886 2014-04-03 12:10:08 <vetch> exactly.
 887 2014-04-03 12:10:15 <wumpus> I remember someone was even working on making it possible to read a compressed bootstrap file directly in bitcoind, but a pull never materialized
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 889 2014-04-03 12:10:42 <wumpus> in the end, no one cares about disk space enough to spend enough work on it :)
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 894 2014-04-03 12:12:02 <vetch> probably lots more important things to work on in the client
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 906 2014-04-03 12:12:42 <wumpus> you could say that
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 922 2014-04-03 12:24:22 <olalonde> question regarding SPV nodes
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 925 2014-04-03 12:30:41 <olalonde> a SPV client when it first connects to the network for the first time would need to download all block headers?
 926 2014-04-03 12:31:15 <olalonde> assuming its wallet can contain "used" keys
 927 2014-04-03 12:32:10 <wumpus> in principle, yes
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 929 2014-04-03 12:33:33 <wumpus> although bitcoinj recently added a way to add checkpoints, so that if you trust the checkpoints, block headers only have to be downloaded starting from the last checkpoint before the birthday of the first key
 930 2014-04-03 12:33:42 <olalonde> I'm trying to understand why electrum uses trusted servers but also claims to implement SPV. what are the trusted servers used for?
 931 2014-04-03 12:34:02 <olalonde> ok
 932 2014-04-03 12:34:30 <olalonde> bitcoinj is a SPV client?
 933 2014-04-03 12:34:47 <wumpus> I'm not sure whether any of the wallets use that functionality, in general the block headers are considered small enough to not bother
 934 2014-04-03 12:35:09 <wumpus> sort of, it's a library that can be used to make a SPV client
 935 2014-04-03 12:35:26 <olalonde> ok
 936 2014-04-03 12:36:00 <wumpus> I'm surprised that you don't know it, it's the most well known implementation of bitcoin node functionality apart from bitcoind itself
 937 2014-04-03 12:36:48 <olalonde> I knew it was a java bitcoin client / library
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 940 2014-04-03 12:37:16 <olalonde> wasn't sure about the SPV part :P
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 945 2014-04-03 12:39:24 <kinlo> olalonde: the "trusted" part is that you need a "trusted" server so they don't hide transactions from you
 946 2014-04-03 12:39:54 <kinlo> there are a few things a "trusted" server in electrum can do
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 951 2014-04-03 12:40:12 <kinlo> you just have the block headers, you have no idea which transactions are inside those blocks
 952 2014-04-03 12:40:31 <kinlo> so you need to trust that the server, if you ask for all transactions for a certain address, will reply with all transactions.
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 955 2014-04-03 12:41:06 <kinlo> you also need to trust the server that they will know your balance, as you do tell the server which addresses to verify
 956 2014-04-03 12:41:09 <olalonde> doesn't the merkle root in block header sguarantee that you are not given fake transactions though?
 957 2014-04-03 12:41:27 <kinlo> olalonde: yes, but it does not guarantee you are giving all transactions
 958 2014-04-03 12:41:31 <hearn> wumpus: actually most “good” wallets that use bitcoinj do use checkpoints
 959 2014-04-03 12:41:52 <hearn> wumpus: though it’s invisible to users. it reduces initial data usage and speeds up the time at which point block confirmations start appearing
 960 2014-04-03 12:41:57 <hearn> wumpus: for instance mutibit and android wallet both do
 961 2014-04-03 12:42:13 <kinlo> olalonde: so the server could just reply you with already spent txid's.  Or just hide one large one
 962 2014-04-03 12:42:18 <hearn> olalonde: over time the Electrum servers have become less trusted indeed
 963 2014-04-03 12:42:34 <kinlo> olalonde: the impact is minimal, but some form of trust must be there
 964 2014-04-03 12:42:36 <hearn> olalonde: eventually i anticipate that the difference between Electrum servers and P2P nodes will become smaller and smaller, and one day vanish
 965 2014-04-03 12:42:46 <olalonde> I'm not trying to bash on electrum.. I just wonder what the SPV model lacks that the electrum servers make up for
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 967 2014-04-03 12:43:27 <kinlo> olalonde: the clients still need to learn all their transactions.  electrum just queries a central database - one of the stratum servers it is using
 968 2014-04-03 12:43:27 <olalonde> hearn: ok I see
 969 2014-04-03 12:43:34 <hearn> mostly, Electrum servers provide “instant query” support. at least that’s the theory
 970 2014-04-03 12:43:45 <hearn> so you don’t have to scan the block chain looking for transactions.
 971 2014-04-03 12:43:50 <kinlo> multibit just downloads all blocks (with a filter to reduce bandwith) and just doesn't record anything but it's own transactions
 972 2014-04-03 12:43:58 <kinlo> so electrum is much faster
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 974 2014-04-03 12:44:15 <olalonde> I thought the bitcoin protocol allowed to query for individual transactions
 975 2014-04-03 12:44:17 <hearn> “real” SPV clients like bitcoinj provide the remote server with a Bloom filter that can match false positives (by design). so in theory it can be more private, although for various reasons bcj doesn’t actually garble the filters much today
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 977 2014-04-03 12:44:33 <hearn> electrum clients provide the server an ungarbled list of addresses which are looked up in a db
 978 2014-04-03 12:44:47 <hearn> so electrum servers are a lot more expensive to run than bitcoin nodes, because calculating the databases is expensive
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 980 2014-04-03 12:45:29 <vetch> probably once the database exists it's not too expensive to query it, much like a real bitcoin node.
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 984 2014-04-03 12:47:01 <olalonde> interesting stuff
 985 2014-04-03 12:47:24 <vetch> the bloom filters requested by bitcoinj seem to be fairly expensive for the node to process. it's probably not all that scalable in the long term.
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 987 2014-04-03 12:47:58 <hearn> right, at some point bloom filtering will stop scaling
 988 2014-04-03 12:48:10 <hearn> as every user has to be tested against every transaction
 989 2014-04-03 12:48:49 <hearn> there are ways to optimise the current implementation, though, which wasn’t really written for max speed
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 991 2014-04-03 12:49:44 <vetch> hopefully further optimisations don't allow 1/0 again.
 992 2014-04-03 12:50:03 <hearn> indeed
 993 2014-04-03 12:50:26 <hearn> ideally we would catch UNIX signals and turn them into exceptions, like as is done on Windows
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 997 2014-04-03 12:51:08 <olalonde> there's something I'm not sure I understand about SPV clients
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 999 2014-04-03 12:51:57 <hearn> what’s that
1000 2014-04-03 12:52:00 <olalonde> it wouldn't be possible to run 2 different SPV clients that have the same wallet right? the SPV client must know about all transactions it created right?
1001 2014-04-03 12:52:20 <hearn> of course you can
1002 2014-04-03 12:52:28 <hearn> (and people do)
1003 2014-04-03 12:52:36 <hearn> they can see their own transactions in the block chain
1004 2014-04-03 12:52:38 <olalonde> hmm then I misunderstand something :P
1005 2014-04-03 12:53:03 <olalonde> hearn: right.. but isn't the point of a SPV that it doesn't need to download all the blockchain?
1006 2014-04-03 12:53:05 <hearn> reading the bloom filtering BIP might help
1007 2014-04-03 12:53:13 <hearn> SPV clients don’t download the whole chain, just parts of it
1008 2014-04-03 12:53:28 <hearn> they download transactions that match a filter, the block headers, and a merkle branch (mathematical proof) tying them together
1009 2014-04-03 12:53:37 <olalonde> so... how does it know it didn't miss a transaction that might be of importance to its wallet?
1010 2014-04-03 12:53:51 <olalonde> ok , I will read that BIP I guess
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1012 2014-04-03 12:54:29 <hearn> it doesn't
1013 2014-04-03 12:54:40 <hearn> in theory a remote node could lie-by-omission
1014 2014-04-03 12:54:52 <hearn> however you have thousands of nodes to pick from, and SPV clients choose more or less randomly
1015 2014-04-03 12:54:58 <hearn> so there isn’t much to be gained from such an attack
1016 2014-04-03 12:55:08 <olalonde> ah ok
1017 2014-04-03 12:55:23 <olalonde> makes sense
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1019 2014-04-03 12:58:37 <olalonde> so before BIP 37... SPV clients were just like full nodes except they didn't save all the blocks locally.. only transactions that mattered
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1021 2014-04-03 12:59:17 <olalonde> after BIP 37.. they can download only the transactions that are relevant to them
1022 2014-04-03 13:00:52 <vetch> did they even exist before bloom filtering?
1023 2014-04-03 13:01:22 <olalonde> Android "Bitcoin Wallet" apparently
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1026 2014-04-03 13:02:19 <vetch> if you take it in that sense than the Bitcoin Core client is SPV too. if no peers want to download blocks from you, the block files can "safely" be deleted.
1027 2014-04-03 13:02:33 <wumpus> right, without bloom filtering SPV clients would still have to fetch and process the entire blocks
1028 2014-04-03 13:02:38 <vetch> you'll crash out as soon as they do, so it's clearly a stupid thing to do.
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1031 2014-04-03 13:03:17 <wumpus> vetch: you'd still have to add headers-first logic
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1033 2014-04-03 13:03:31 <olalonde> right
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1035 2014-04-03 13:04:00 <hearn> vetch: they did yes
1036 2014-04-03 13:04:09 <hearn> vetch: matt and I did bloom filtering to make them faster
1037 2014-04-03 13:04:11 <wumpus> vetch: and wallet rescans would have to be changed to re-fetch the blocks from peers
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1039 2014-04-03 13:04:35 <vetch> hearn: interesting, thanks for clearing that up.
1040 2014-04-03 13:04:35 <hearn> there are some other differences
1041 2014-04-03 13:04:41 <hearn> bitcoinj does not store all headers in RAM like Core does
1042 2014-04-03 13:04:46 <hearn> (because they wouldn’t fit)
1043 2014-04-03 13:04:56 <olalonde> the worse possible attack on SPV client would be to prevent it from seeing some transactions. not sure how this could be exploited for profit... any ideas?
1044 2014-04-03 13:05:12 <sipa> ;;calc [blocks]*80/1048576
1045 2014-04-03 13:05:13 <gribble> 22.4275970459
1046 2014-04-03 13:06:00 <vetch> olalonde: could make some money revealing people's identity I suppose if you were maliciously inclined.
1047 2014-04-03 13:06:08 <olalonde> right
1048 2014-04-03 13:06:30 <hearn> identity?
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1050 2014-04-03 13:06:46 <vetch> olalonde: bloom filters can be set up to return false positives in an attempt to avoid it though.
1051 2014-04-03 13:06:54 <wumpus> olalonde: you could also lie to them about unconfirmed transactions, if they show them, as they have no way of verifying whether their inputs are unspent
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1054 2014-04-03 13:07:31 <olalonde> right
1055 2014-04-03 13:07:32 <vetch> hearn: user x wanted to know about a and b, therefore they are the same person. could be damaging in some very edge cases.
1056 2014-04-03 13:07:43 <hearn> ah, you mean linkage of addresses
1057 2014-04-03 13:07:49 <hearn> that’s what the garbling is for
1058 2014-04-03 13:07:51 <hearn> (if we used it)
1059 2014-04-03 13:07:52 <sipa> olalonde: and servers can hide transactions
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1062 2014-04-03 13:08:32 <olalonde> sipa: yes.. my question was how could this attack be exploited for profit? I can't think of a scenario but there is probably one
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1065 2014-04-03 13:08:45 <vetch> hearn: presumably with enough time and pervasive enough coverage of nodes you could build proof of garbage (assuming it is random each time). is that a reasonable assumption?
1066 2014-04-03 13:09:31 <hearn> right, if you can correlate a bunch of filters together you can try to strip out noise. it’s not a perfect way to preserve privacy by any means.
1067 2014-04-03 13:09:36 <vetch> hearn: I'm working under the assumption that you could eliminate the garbage by seeing which information is similar between requested filters.
1068 2014-04-03 13:09:37 <olalonde> wumpus: right.. but SPV clients use block depth as a proxy to confirm transactions right? seems reasonable
1069 2014-04-03 13:09:38 <hearn> more like, “it was easy, so we did it"
1070 2014-04-03 13:09:53 <vetch> hearn: understood.
1071 2014-04-03 13:09:56 <hearn> vetch: you can try to ensure filters remain consistent from a nodes perspective over time
1072 2014-04-03 13:10:06 <hearn> but again, there are limits to what we do to ensure privacy with filtering today
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1077 2014-04-03 13:11:11 <vetch> hearn: its a useful tradeoff. considerably better privacy than blockchain.info and cloudflare, surely.
1078 2014-04-03 13:11:19 <hearn> sure
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1082 2014-04-03 13:14:36 <hearn> long term i guess we’ll go to some fancy PIR protocol, if we can afford it
1083 2014-04-03 13:14:46 <sipa> PIR?
1084 2014-04-03 13:15:02 <hearn> private information retrieval. the field of cryptography that deals with oblivious databases and things
1085 2014-04-03 13:15:06 <sipa> ic
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1087 2014-04-03 13:15:15 <hearn> alternatively, we might move to a world where wallets mostly don’t learn about transactions via the block chain
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1089 2014-04-03 13:15:39 <hearn> and then scanning would become less important
1090 2014-04-03 13:15:47 <hearn> however that’d require really huge adoption of bip70
1091 2014-04-03 13:17:17 <wumpus> but even then, wouldn't they still want to know whether an transaction was confirmed?
1092 2014-04-03 13:17:33 <sipa> wumpus: they'd still run a full node to query for validity, i guess
1093 2014-04-03 13:17:54 <sipa> all you need is a maintained utxo set
1094 2014-04-03 13:19:01 <wumpus> sipa: yes in the case of a trusted full node a lot more is possible
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1096 2014-04-03 13:20:35 <hearn> wumpus: for transactions that were sent to them, they just need a merkle branch, which the sender could provide
1097 2014-04-03 13:21:00 <hearn> for wanting to know when an unconfirmed transaction confirms, you can still do Bloom filtering, but all you’re matching against is tx hashes at that point, which is super fast
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1101 2014-04-03 13:23:32 <olalonde> after broadcasting a transaction , couldn't the SPV node just download full blocks until the transaction is confirmed?
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1103 2014-04-03 13:24:01 <wumpus> why?
1104 2014-04-03 13:24:41 <olalonde> assuming privacy is a concern
1105 2014-04-03 13:24:50 <hearn> you can’t easily do that on some devices
1106 2014-04-03 13:24:55 <hearn> it takes up a lot of bandwidth even today
1107 2014-04-03 13:25:08 <hearn> but like i said, you can just set a bloom filter that looks for the pending transactions you have in your wallet
1108 2014-04-03 13:25:12 <hearn> and nothing else
1109 2014-04-03 13:25:35 <hearn> unless you handed out addresses outside of BIP70, of course, in which case you need to look for payments to them. which in practice all wallets do
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1112 2014-04-03 13:26:47 <olalonde> right
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1118 2014-04-03 13:38:15 <arjen-jonathan> Anyone here who is willing to answer a question about CCoinViews?
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1120 2014-04-03 13:39:17 <arjen-jonathan> Specifically: I'm using GetOutputFor on a CCoinsViewCache to get the output from an entry in vxin. But it triggers an assertion on bitcoind startup.
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1131 2014-04-03 13:49:19 <arjen-jonathan> Anyone here who is willing to answer a question about CCoinViews?
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1156 2014-04-03 14:04:08 mehqods is now known as cryptomethdev
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1162 2014-04-03 14:09:30 <wumpus> what assertion?
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1167 2014-04-03 14:14:04 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: it only works for existing outputs
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1172 2014-04-03 14:15:13 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: i.e., not yet spent
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1181 2014-04-03 14:23:58 <arjen-jonathan> sipa: How would I get outputs that ARE spent then? Do I need need to get a view on the mempool?
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1184 2014-04-03 14:27:22 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: outputs that are spent don't exist in the set of unspent outputs (which is what CCoinsView is)
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1187 2014-04-03 14:28:35 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: what do you want to accomplish?
1188 2014-04-03 14:29:35 jumpnmove is now known as GhostJump
1189 2014-04-03 14:29:48 <arjen-jonathan> sipa: Aah, I misread the inline documentation.
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1192 2014-04-03 14:30:31 <arjen-jonathan> sipa: I have a transaction and I'd like to get the outputs that are referenced as the inputs.
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1194 2014-04-03 14:30:45 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: you need a full transaction index for that
1195 2014-04-03 14:30:52 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: and it's not very efficient
1196 2014-04-03 14:31:22 <arjen-jonathan> sipa: Makes sense :)
1197 2014-04-03 14:32:11 <arjen-jonathan> sipa: But if a coin is unspent, I can get it using CCoinsViewCache getOutputFor?
1198 2014-04-03 14:32:21 <sipa> yes
1199 2014-04-03 14:32:32 <sipa> well, cache is just a cache
1200 2014-04-03 14:32:37 <sipa> the question is unspent where
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1202 2014-04-03 14:32:51 <sipa> pcoinsTip will give you the UTXO set for the current active block chain
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1204 2014-04-03 14:33:09 <arjen-jonathan> Ofcourse
1205 2014-04-03 14:33:11 <sipa> there's a ccoinsview for the mempool too, which adds unspent transactions on top
1206 2014-04-03 14:33:36 <arjen-jonathan> Thanks, that's all I needed to know for now.
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1216 2014-04-03 14:53:09 <gmaxwell> sipa: time to rescale your hashrate charts again.
1217 2014-04-03 14:53:22 <sipa> grrr!
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1219 2014-04-03 14:54:02 <sipa> updating
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1229 2014-04-03 15:02:42 <hearn> amazing
1230 2014-04-03 15:02:52 <hearn> mining is still speeding up even with the falling price
1231 2014-04-03 15:02:54 <HaltingState> sipa, does generate privatekey always succeed? for any 32 byte input?
1232 2014-04-03 15:02:58 <hearn> i guess there are still so many efficiencies left to go
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1236 2014-04-03 15:03:57 <gmaxwell> hearn: there is a backlog of already purchased hardware in the mfgr pipeline. :)
1237 2014-04-03 15:04:51 <hearn> sigh
1238 2014-04-03 15:04:56 <hearn> network traffic is at the same level it was a year ago though
1239 2014-04-03 15:05:02 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: to keep the key space uniform the secret key should be smaller than the order of the curve; though the difference from uniform is so small it probably doesn't really matter.
1240 2014-04-03 15:05:03 <hearn> we haven’t really increased usage of bitcoin very much in the past 12 months
1241 2014-04-03 15:05:15 <hearn> perhaps the composition has changed
1242 2014-04-03 15:05:22 <gmaxwell> hearn: I think usage has increased a ton; a year ago the network was flooded by fake usage.
1243 2014-04-03 15:05:27 <hearn> ah yes you’re right
1244 2014-04-03 15:05:28 <hearn> https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popular
1245 2014-04-03 15:05:31 <hearn> that’s such a useful graph
1246 2014-04-03 15:05:53 <hearn> so usage roughly doubled
1247 2014-04-03 15:05:56 <hearn> not enough >:)
1248 2014-04-03 15:06:14 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, but in sipa's library; will generate private key always succeed?: or can it fail for some 32 byte inputs? someone using my library is asking me because of something with deterministic wallet gen
1249 2014-04-03 15:06:32 * hearn needs a break
1250 2014-04-03 15:06:36 <hearn> -> walk
1251 2014-04-03 15:07:10 <HaltingState> they are sha256 seed value and then passing in the 32 bytes as input and wondering if it can fail to generate private key; i dont think it can, because its just raising the base point to that power and its a "int" technically and not point on curve
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1253 2014-04-03 15:07:27 <HaltingState> but sipa's library might reject some inputs and that is what i am wondering about
1254 2014-04-03 15:07:35 <gmaxwell> I think you should read the code.
1255 2014-04-03 15:08:54 <HaltingState> if the probability of failure is 1 in 2^64 or something absurdly low, that is OK
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1257 2014-04-03 15:09:17 <HaltingState> but if its significant, i need to know; it says it can return 0 for "invalid secret"
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1259 2014-04-03 15:09:47 <HaltingState> ok; it cant return 0
1260 2014-04-03 15:09:47 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: your question is offtopic for this channel (not bitcoin related); but I'd be happy if your usage caused you to go do some code review of code we care about.
1261 2014-04-03 15:10:17 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, its bitcoin related because bitcoin will be using this library and its bitcoin deterministic wallet related
1262 2014-04-03 15:10:53 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: BIP32 is well specified in this case and requires you to advance to the next key if the value is too large.
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1270 2014-04-03 15:13:13 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, the question was related to "what happens if privatekey generation fails for some seed input", but it says "Return 1" and never uses the failure branch, so its OK/never happens
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1291 2014-04-03 15:30:21 <netg_> 11
1292 2014-04-03 15:30:47 <antephialtic> "Why do libertarians like functional programming? Because it's stateless."
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1294 2014-04-03 15:31:29 <danielpbarron> :>
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1305 2014-04-03 15:39:28 <ThomasV> why is OP_CHECKMULTISIG sensitive to signature order?
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1309 2014-04-03 15:40:30 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: because otherwise it would need to do N^2 work to validate a signature.
1310 2014-04-03 15:42:13 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: makes sense. perhaps it should be mentioned on https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0011.mediawiki
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1392 2014-04-03 16:41:47 <hearn> sipa: what do you think about a getutxo p2p message. ie, you send a COutPoint and get back a CTxOut
1393 2014-04-03 16:43:39 <petertodd> you should get back a CTransaction so it's secure
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1400 2014-04-03 16:48:53 <maaku> petertodd: we have to develop with pruning in mind
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1404 2014-04-03 16:51:10 <gmaxwell> hearn: sounds like something that would be super prone to abuse.
1405 2014-04-03 16:51:24 <r0sc0e> sorry, i had a disconnect
1406 2014-04-03 16:51:26 <hearn> petertodd: you can’t do that
1407 2014-04-03 16:51:28 <gmaxwell> e.g. Checkout my awesome image downloader utility that uses the bitcoin network as a DHT.
1408 2014-04-03 16:51:34 <hearn> petertodd: without a full index. that’s why i said, getutxo
1409 2014-04-03 16:51:39 <hearn> for what i want, i don’t need full transactions anyway
1410 2014-04-03 16:51:42 <r0sc0e> can anyone tell me how to fix my problem with blockchain?
1411 2014-04-03 16:52:02 <gmaxwell> hearn: petertodd's point is that nodes can just give you garbage data and you probably cannot tell.
1412 2014-04-03 16:52:05 <gmaxwell> r0sc0e: wrong channel.
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1414 2014-04-03 16:53:00 <hearn> it’s sufficient to run a scriptSig in an unbroadcast transaction that you have
1415 2014-04-03 16:53:04 <r0sc0e> okay sorry
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1417 2014-04-03 16:53:12 <sipa> hearn, gmaxwell, petertodd: yeah, i really don't like data that cannot be authenticated to the p2p protocol
1418 2014-04-03 16:53:23 <gmaxwell> hearn: ah, I see what you want there.
1419 2014-04-03 16:53:23 <sipa> with a committed utxo set, that is different
1420 2014-04-03 16:53:44 <hearn> *shrug* authenticated in what way? if you take the UTXO and run it against a tx scriptSig, that authenticates it
1421 2014-04-03 16:54:01 <hearn> for the purposes of checking, is this tx likely to be spendable without actually broadcasting it and thus committing it
1422 2014-04-03 16:54:31 <gmaxwell> hearn: if your goal is to tell if an unconfirmed transaction is valid or not, I can just give you a bad one, then also give you a bogus utxo that it passes, but it's still not valid.
1423 2014-04-03 16:54:48 <hearn> the source of the tx in this case is not the p2p network
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1425 2014-04-03 16:54:57 <petertodd> maaku: I know that, which is why I said it as to suggest it's not a good idea!
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1427 2014-04-03 16:55:34 <petertodd> maaku: more concretely, you could do a model where what's actually returned is a block height, and then you get the block to get the actual utxo (it's just a hint then)
1428 2014-04-03 16:55:34 <hearn> and i am willing to make some weak assumptions about the trustworthyness of nodes in this case.
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1430 2014-04-03 16:56:19 <petertodd> hearn: sigh, you really want to give me an excuse to rent some EC2 capacity?
1431 2014-04-03 16:56:22 <hearn> the alternative is either for my app to calculate the UTXO set itself (expensive + exposes me to full validation bugs in bitcoinj), or query a Core node for the UTXO set it already has, in which case I could do it via RPC but then my app ends up “requiring” a trusted Core node just because of the message format
1432 2014-04-03 16:56:38 <hearn> petertodd: i’d be delighted if you wasted your money!
1433 2014-04-03 16:56:48 <gmaxwell> well you're still subject to full validation bugs when checking the transaction.
1434 2014-04-03 16:57:05 <gmaxwell> hearn: why not just assume it's valid and realy it and see what happens?
1435 2014-04-03 16:57:11 <hearn> yes, indeed, but i can constrain the format of the tx i’m handling in this particular instance. whereas i cannot constrain what ends up in blocks
1436 2014-04-03 16:58:08 <hearn> because the tx is not fully valid in this case. i’m playing with SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY inputs. sigh. do i really need to post full design docs for such basic questions? i would much rather define a new p2p message and constrain it to localhost if necessary, than add a JSON-RPC, because the first form can be more easily exposed to other users in a decentralised case
1437 2014-04-03 16:58:32 <hearn> if a node operator desires to do that, for instance. as the alternatives all push people towards more decentralisation
1438 2014-04-03 16:58:34 <gmaxwell> It's generally really rude to constrain what coins a third party is spending... and if it's not a third party; why not just trust it?  In any case, the unauthenticated data concern is I think secondary to the problem of turning the bitcoin utxo set into a cheap DHT file trading service.
1439 2014-04-03 16:58:37 <maaku> hearn: this is something that will come with UTXO hash commitments
1440 2014-04-03 16:58:58 <petertodd> gmaxwell: good to bring that up
1441 2014-04-03 16:59:00 <gmaxwell> maaku: will it? thats not entirely clear to me.
1442 2014-04-03 16:59:32 <hearn> gmaxwell: people can and do already put custom data into the UTXO set. that should not stop us building useful features for financial applications.
1443 2014-04-03 16:59:44 <hearn> maaku: not willing to wait for those: much larger, riskier and more controversial change than just adding a new p2p message
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1446 2014-04-03 17:00:17 <maaku> hearn: except the message is useless without a committed hash root as reference...
1447 2014-04-03 17:00:23 <gmaxwell> hearn: And yes, you actually do have to justify your application when you want to change the bitcoin p2p protocol, esp do so in a way that requires nodes to distribute unauthenticated data, esp with potential efficient abusive uses which are far more obvious than financial ones.
1448 2014-04-03 17:00:45 <gmaxwell> The questions being asked aren't unreasonable.
1449 2014-04-03 17:00:47 <petertodd> gmaxwell: indeed, if you claim such non-financial uses are an attack, then don't enable cheaper attacks
1450 2014-04-03 17:01:19 <gmaxwell> hearn: people do store things today, but right now they aren't very efficient.
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1452 2014-04-03 17:01:24 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I certainly don't think making the utxo set into a awsome decentralized database is a good idea, and I've probably explored those usecases more than anyone else here
1453 2014-04-03 17:01:36 <gmaxwell> petertodd: maybe its unavoidable.
1454 2014-04-03 17:01:40 <maaku> petertodd gmaxwell: i would prefer we adopt the phrase non-payment data, since many of these applications are financial...
1455 2014-04-03 17:01:48 <hearn> you can easily store files in OP_RETURN outputs and grab them with Bloom filters, today. and that requires filtering entire blocks. this is hardly worse.
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1457 2014-04-03 17:02:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: well, e.g. with UTXO expiration w/ TXO fallbacks the worst effects of that usage are restricted
1458 2014-04-03 17:02:52 <petertodd> maaku: +1
1459 2014-04-03 17:02:56 <gmaxwell> hearn: you have a point, in particular it only increases the key size somewhat (e.g. you have to add a filterspec and a height)
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1461 2014-04-03 17:03:45 <petertodd> hearn: well that's part of why I proposed prefix filters, so that peopel doing that "grab it via bloom" wouldn't put so much load on the network
1462 2014-04-03 17:03:49 <gmaxwell> (right now that is held back by keeping op_return data compariable to the key size via IsStandard(), but the same applies to a free lookup call)
1463 2014-04-03 17:04:11 <petertodd> gmaxwell: nah, the way op_return was done is actually worse there - it's cheaper to use other data encoding methods
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1465 2014-04-03 17:04:30 <gmaxwell> petertodd: they're all pretty limited in size.
1466 2014-04-03 17:04:59 <hearn> yes, it may make sense to switch to some other kind of filtering type in future.
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1468 2014-04-03 17:05:35 <hearn> although i suspect the bulk of the load created by bloom filtering is actually loading and parsing the block into memory
1469 2014-04-03 17:05:36 <gmaxwell> hearn: Okay, I mostly withdraw my DHT app concern. Still left with unauthenticated data potentially incentivizing sybil attacks. :(
1470 2014-04-03 17:06:18 * gmaxwell puts his bet on most of the load actually being in the memory allocator while it seralizes and deseralizes things. 
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1472 2014-04-03 17:06:50 <hearn> for a node that runs with -txindex the merkle branch could be returned too, but then we’d have to convince sipa that a service bit to find such nodes is a good idea :)
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1475 2014-04-03 17:10:33 <giustoXricordarv>  raid della regina elisabetta 2° a roma
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1486 2014-04-03 17:17:16 <petertodd> gmaxwell: it's not how limited they are, it's the cost per byte
1487 2014-04-03 17:17:59 <petertodd> hearn: it'd be useful to have the infrastructure so that such a service bit could actually be found on the network
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1489 2014-04-03 17:18:25 <hearn> service bits are included in addr broadcasts and sent as part of getaddr, so that’s not a problem
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1491 2014-04-03 17:18:46 <hearn> at most, we’d need an extension to getaddr to let a peer ask for nodes matching a bitmask
1492 2014-04-03 17:18:51 <hearn> in case there aren’t enough to be in the default return set
1493 2014-04-03 17:19:09 <petertodd> hearn: yes, fails for a low % of nodes adopting it though, want to be able to actually find said nodes beter than we can now
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1495 2014-04-03 17:19:14 <gmaxwell> petertodd: Right mostly I've been thinking in terms of the ratio of key bytes plus overhead bytes to good data bytes.
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1497 2014-04-03 17:20:02 <petertodd> gmaxwell: exactly - right now P2SH redeemScripts w/ multisig are cheapest
1498 2014-04-03 17:20:56 <gmaxwell> hm. and you point out that an unauthenticated utxo query would make utxo storage cheaper. it's a point.
1499 2014-04-03 17:21:45 <gmaxwell> (My thinking above was 'okay you can already do this now reasonably cheaply by adding a height and filterspec to your key'.. but indeed it would not be nice to make the utxo the cheaper place to store data)
1500 2014-04-03 17:21:45 <hearn> cheapest in what sense?
1501 2014-04-03 17:21:58 <petertodd> hearn: cost per byte published
1502 2014-04-03 17:22:09 <hearn> P2SH results in larger transactions overall so the fees should be higher
1503 2014-04-03 17:23:01 <petertodd> you want to publish 10KB of data in the bitcoin blockchain: with the current IsStandard() rules, what's the cheapest way to do that?
1504 2014-04-03 17:24:02 <gmaxwell> hearn: the p2sh increase is pretty small, and it moves data into the scriptsig instead of the utxo set which— all things equal— is desirable.
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1506 2014-04-03 17:24:28 <hearn> i thought we’re talking about abusive users here, who don’t care about the desirability of such things but rather just whatever results in lowest fees?
1507 2014-04-03 17:26:21 <petertodd> yes, and from there perspective, the question is what's the cheapest way to publish their data? remember that you have to include destroyed coins due to the IsDust() rule
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1509 2014-04-03 17:26:49 <petertodd> also, remember that >3 pubkeys is IsStandard() in a redeemScript, but not a scriptPubKey
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1512 2014-04-03 17:28:04 <hearn> wait, IsStandard changed for P2SH scripts vs regular scripts?
1513 2014-04-03 17:28:07 <hearn> when did that happen?
1514 2014-04-03 17:28:44 <hearn> what’s the limit in a redeemScript then?
1515 2014-04-03 17:29:21 <petertodd> it's always been like that, the m <= 3 test isn't applied in Solver()
1516 2014-04-03 17:29:32 <petertodd> the limit is <=500 byte scriptSig
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1518 2014-04-03 17:30:00 <petertodd> see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3843
1519 2014-04-03 17:30:18 <ribasushi> is there a test suite that is "fuzzing" the solver?
1520 2014-04-03 17:30:40 <ribasushi> i.e. if I were to write my own validator - is there some prior art of "seemingly ok, but actually invalid" txns?
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1523 2014-04-03 17:32:01 <petertodd> ribasushi: pull-reqs accepted; it's a good idea
1524 2014-04-03 17:32:40 <hearn> ribasushi: there are JSON files that contain hand written tests
1525 2014-04-03 17:32:51 <hearn> ribasushi: they are not likely to be comprehensive. i’m not even sure what the coverage is on them
1526 2014-04-03 17:33:18 <petertodd> gmaxwell: incidentally, something I noticed is that some of the data-encoding methods make backtracking and re-requesting blocks via bloom filters very attractive - at a huge cost to the network in terms of load of course
1527 2014-04-03 17:33:54 <hearn> petertodd: btw i’m not sure bitcoinj does generate non-canonical CHECKMULTISIGs, i think that reading of the code was wrong. but i have to go back and dig through those pull requests again - they changed quite a few times.
1528 2014-04-03 17:33:56 <ribasushi> aye
1529 2014-04-03 17:34:25 <petertodd> hearn: well if anyone is using bitcoinj for CHECKMULTISIG it must not, because the only non-canonical CHECKMULTISIG I've seen are ones I generated myself
1530 2014-04-03 17:34:35 <gmaxwell> petertodd: things that require extra traffic to fetch are also less good for the abuser.
1531 2014-04-03 17:34:43 <hearn> yeah right now i don’t think anyone is running micropayment channels in production, and that’s all it’s used for at the moment
1532 2014-04-03 17:35:02 <hearn> i wrote a nice server and GUI based file downloading client that used payment channels, but never quite finished it off
1533 2014-04-03 17:35:10 <hearn> so i doubt anyone uses that code for real at the moment
1534 2014-04-03 17:35:16 <petertodd> gmaxwell: agreed, but my point is in some cases there are real benefits for the abuser, if only because bloom has no cost to them and high cost to the nodes serving it
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1540 2014-04-03 17:44:50 <hearn> sipa: which lock is pcoinsTip under?
1541 2014-04-03 17:46:28 kermit has joined
1542 2014-04-03 17:47:13 <sipa> hearn: cs_main
1543 2014-04-03 17:47:52 <hearn> thanks. is cs_main held during ProcessMessages?
1544 2014-04-03 17:47:55 <hearn> i mean ProcessMessage
1545 2014-04-03 17:48:00 <sipa> hearn: yes
1546 2014-04-03 17:48:09 <sipa> at least the parts where it is accessed
1547 2014-04-03 17:48:31 <hearn> i mean, is it held for the entire duration of ProcessMessage?
1548 2014-04-03 17:48:58 <sipa> can't remember
1549 2014-04-03 17:48:59 <sipa> check
1550 2014-04-03 17:50:13 <hearn> ok
1551 2014-04-03 17:51:12 <hearn> i’ll just add some lock assertions
1552 2014-04-03 17:51:36 <sipa> thanks!
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1554 2014-04-03 17:52:12 <sipa> hearn: ProcessMessage locks cs_main where it accesses core data structures
1555 2014-04-03 17:52:21 <hearn> ok
1556 2014-04-03 17:52:27 <hearn> i didn’t see that
1557 2014-04-03 17:52:43 <hearn> and cs_main > pool.cs ?
1558 2014-04-03 17:52:54 <sipa> pool.cs is pretty much useless now, actually
1559 2014-04-03 17:53:06 <sipa> as the pool is only accessed together with pcoinsTip
1560 2014-04-03 17:53:09 <sipa> (i think)
1561 2014-04-03 17:53:22 <sipa> maybe getrawmempool or something accesses pool but not main
1562 2014-04-03 17:54:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: wrt moving initialdownload to checkpoints, at least as it's currently implemented it's effectively a checkpoint test. Perhaps you're planning on changing it. I think I'd moved it around because I needed it in the network code (as a hurestic on when nodes should advertise themselves).
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1565 2014-04-03 17:54:48 <sipa> then add it to the network interface
1566 2014-04-03 17:55:25 <sipa> it accesses fImporting, fReindex, chainActive, GetTime(), ... none of which have anything to do with checkpoints
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1574 2014-04-03 17:59:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: commenting
1575 2014-04-03 18:00:02 edcba has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1576 2014-04-03 18:00:02 <gmaxwell> (Obviously I don't really care where it is)
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1580 2014-04-03 18:02:47 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think checkpoints should just go away instead of moving. :P
1581 2014-04-03 18:03:24 <sipa> gmaxwell: fair enough :)
1582 2014-04-03 18:04:34 <sipa> (i obviously agree)
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1599 2014-04-03 18:29:12 <kadoban> If an OP_CODESEPARATOR is in an un-executed OP_IF, it doesn't do anything, right?  It's only executed OP_CODESEPs that have an effect?
1600 2014-04-03 18:29:21 ThomasV has joined
1601 2014-04-03 18:29:41 <kazcw> op_codeseparators don't really execute; they're read literally
1602 2014-04-03 18:30:42 <kadoban> Does that mean they have effect even if they're in IF statements that never run, or even if they happen after the OP_CHECKSIG or whatever?
1603 2014-04-03 18:31:07 <kazcw> hold on, I'm not sure I'm right
1604 2014-04-03 18:33:05 <kadoban> Oh, hah, I found it in script.cpp...I was mis-spelling it when I was searching :-/  Yeah, it looks like they do their changes when they're evaluated
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1650 2014-04-03 19:13:53  has joined
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1652 2014-04-03 19:15:03 <dhill> was there ever an "ack" command?
1653 2014-04-03 19:15:08 antephialtic has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1654 2014-04-03 19:15:16 <sipa> for?
1655 2014-04-03 19:15:29 <dhill> i have a bitcoind 0.7.2 client sending me "ack"
1656 2014-04-03 19:15:52 lolstate has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1657 2014-04-03 19:15:55 <sipa> a p2p message?
1658 2014-04-03 19:16:21 <dhill> as the command in the message header
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1660 2014-04-03 19:16:27 <sipa> yeah
1661 2014-04-03 19:16:32 <sipa> not afaik
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1664 2014-04-03 19:18:25 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1665 2014-04-03 19:18:45 <dhill> was 0.7.2 protocol 70001?
1666 2014-04-03 19:19:03 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1667 2014-04-03 19:19:13 <dhill> wonder if this is client is a source code modified bitcoind :)
1668 2014-04-03 19:19:24 <hearn> what is it acking?
1669 2014-04-03 19:20:04 <sipa> 70001 was 0.8 iirc
1670 2014-04-03 19:20:35 <dhill> version
1671 2014-04-03 19:20:50 <sipa> verack?
1672 2014-04-03 19:21:26 <dhill> http://gbpaste.org/CRMRG
1673 2014-04-03 19:21:34 Bitember-Cray has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1674 2014-04-03 19:21:43 <dhill> my first thought was ack was renamed to verack at some time
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1677 2014-04-03 19:22:23 <sipa> no, there never was an 'ack' afaik
1678 2014-04-03 19:23:25 <dhill> ok, so this must just be a bitcoind with source edited
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1700 2014-04-03 19:48:08 <justanot1eruser> Are the following all used, and the only components of the network communication including tx and block rebroadcasting: netbase.cpp, main.cpp, net.cpp?
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1702 2014-04-03 19:49:52 <sipa> protocol.cpp
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1704 2014-04-03 19:53:06 <justanot1eruser> sipa: anything else? It's kindof tough tracking all these function calls
1705 2014-04-03 19:53:51 <sipa> main and net are the bulk of it, and they are weirdly and too strongly interlinked
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1707 2014-04-03 19:53:52 <justanot1eruser> I remember seeing a graph of the files showing what includes what and the network files were isolated
1708 2014-04-03 19:54:09 <sipa> netbase is pretty standalone, it's just a wrapper around low-level network communication
1709 2014-04-03 19:54:29 <phantomcircuit> justanot1eruser, most everything is tightly coupled...
1710 2014-04-03 19:54:31 <sipa> there's of course also core.cpp which defines the block and tx datastructures
1711 2014-04-03 19:54:50 <sipa> phantomcircuit: imho, protocol/net/main is by far the worst offender
1712 2014-04-03 19:54:52 <justanot1eruser> sipa: I wouldn't consider that networking
1713 2014-04-03 19:55:16 <justanot1eruser> Even though propogation depends on their validity
1714 2014-04-03 19:55:34 <sipa> yeah, it's just a dependency
1715 2014-04-03 19:55:59 <justanot1eruser> sipa: how did you "learn" the bitcoin source? Just start at bitcoind.cpp?
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1717 2014-04-03 19:56:13 <sipa> justanot1eruser: by writing most of it :p
1718 2014-04-03 19:56:17 <justanot1eruser> heh
1719 2014-04-03 19:56:26 <justanot1eruser> How did you originally understand it?
1720 2014-04-03 19:56:41 smash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1721 2014-04-03 19:56:55 <sipa> by reading things until i understood enough to do what i wanted
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1723 2014-04-03 19:57:11 <sipa> having a "goal" when trying to grasp source code is very valuable
1724 2014-04-03 19:57:20 <sipa> it allows you to initially ignore parts
1725 2014-04-03 19:57:24 <justanot1eruser> I see
1726 2014-04-03 19:57:48 <sipa> (except you will realize that there are relevant parts in stuff that you initially ignored, but that's fine)
1727 2014-04-03 19:58:00 <justanot1eruser> Who is "laanwj"?
1728 2014-04-03 19:58:03 <sipa> wumpus
1729 2014-04-03 19:58:05 <justanot1eruser> oh
1730 2014-04-03 19:59:19 * justanot1eruser graphs commits/day vs price change
1731 2014-04-03 19:59:32 <sipa> loi
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1740 2014-04-03 20:13:51 <justanot1eruser> I didn't actually use the bc.i or github api, but I compared log(price) vs commits and there is pretty much no correlation http://i.imgur.com/LctXGTW.png
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1769 2014-04-03 20:42:27 <fuegofuego2> @EVERYBODY: Hi there I have some DIRTY question. But I was discusting it with a friend, and sounds a bit wierd, and like there is a HUGE GAP on the bitcoin system!!.. here the thing: When (the trader) transfer 10€ to ----> Bitstamp (Slovenia Bank) they convert it to USD 14$ -----> They set in my Bitstamp Account/Wallet  0.03BTC -----> Then (the trader) decides to move the 0.03BTC from Bitstamp to a PRIVATE WALLET on his co
1770 2014-04-03 20:42:31 <fuegofuego2> ----> Then (the trader) decides to move the 0.03BTC to another EXCHANGE ----> let say BTC-e 0.03BTC Account/Wallet. -----> And cash it out with USD to (the trader) the origianl account where the 10€ left first. HERE THE QUESTION ON THIS SITUATION: The 10€ are on BANK SLOVENIA. WTF?!?! no?!? WHAT am MISSING?! O_o
1771 2014-04-03 20:42:33 viajero has joined
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1775 2014-04-03 20:44:33 <kjj> I don't normally ignore people in here, but seeing @EVERYONE: tempted the hell out of me
1776 2014-04-03 20:44:44 <kjj> but the quick answer is that there is no such thing as conversion
1777 2014-04-03 20:44:47 <sipa> fuegofuego2: #bitcoin please
1778 2014-04-03 20:45:05 sipa has quit (Changing host)
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1780 2014-04-03 20:45:07 <fuegofuego2> SIPA: I think is a developer HUGE PROBLEM!
1781 2014-04-03 20:45:21 <soheil> howdy
1782 2014-04-03 20:45:25 <sipa> fuegofuego2: #bitcoin please; this has nothing to do with bitcoin or its development; i will not ask again
1783 2014-04-03 20:45:27 Blackreign has joined
1784 2014-04-03 20:45:52 <fuegofuego2> ok, ok
1785 2014-04-03 20:46:07 <fuegofuego2> join #bitcoin
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1787 2014-04-03 20:46:16 <upb> what ?!?!?!??!!?!?!!!?!?!? SLOVENIA -> <- BTC?!?!
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1822 2014-04-03 21:06:49 <Matt_von_Mises> Have people heard about the KGW "exploit"? It's an exploit similar to the time warp "attack" in that the difficulty can be manipulated downwards. Though at the end of the day no one can fork the chain without doing more calculated "work", so I don't see how it is a fork exploit. It could be used to make 51% attacks worse or for miners to collaborate in bringing the difficulty down and the number of blocks over time up. What do others think? Major e
1823 2014-04-03 21:07:41 <Matt_von_Mises> This is for Kimoto Gravity Well (for altcoins), so not exactly bitcoin I know, but hopefully people don't mind me discussing here. If there is a better place please let me know.
1824 2014-04-03 21:07:55 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: what, that you can easily mine down the difficulty? this has been pointed out immediately any time any of these fast update algorithims has been pointed out in a place where competent people are.
1825 2014-04-03 21:08:20 <gmaxwell> It's totally boring. Yes, thats an effect of that kind of change.  What bitcoin does, it does for a reason.
1826 2014-04-03 21:08:56 <gmaxwell> oh also this is #bitcoin-dev, it is utterly and complete not welcome here.
1827 2014-04-03 21:09:02 <gmaxwell> I thought you'd asked in #bitcoin-wizards
1828 2014-04-03 21:09:10 <gmaxwell> please do not bring that kind of stuff up in here.
1829 2014-04-03 21:09:51 <Matt_von_Mises> Alright moving to bitcoin-wizards
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1839 2014-04-03 21:22:41 <gmaxwell> I suppose luke's script single step refactoring would make an interesting unit test easy, e.g. prime the stack with zero, one, two, or three operands out of a set of 'interesting' ones ([], [1], [INT_MAX],[pubkey],[signature]) there are 156 of those, and try each opcode, and hash the resulting stack. There are 115 opcodes, so 17940 tests which are very likely to execute all the script code except flow control, but even that would end up ...
1840 2014-04-03 21:22:47 <gmaxwell> ... expressed in the hashed state... adding another factor of 156 to run all opcode pairs should execute all the flow control too.
1841 2014-04-03 21:23:38 <Luke-Jr> yes, the problem is verifying that refactor doesn't already change behaviour in some subtle way XD
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1845 2014-04-03 21:24:55 <gmaxwell> well I think you could do the test I'm suggesting without the refactor too, by inserting a state printing step at the end of the execution loop.
1846 2014-04-03 21:25:04 <gmaxwell> you could potentially use that to show the refactor is safe.
1847 2014-04-03 21:25:44 <Luke-Jr> hm
1848 2014-04-03 21:25:59 <gmaxwell> e.g. first instrument the initial code after the refactor to print a state hash after the first and second operation.  Then feed the 156*115*155 tests through and compare the hashes.
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1878 2014-04-03 21:55:09 <wangbus> general question - anyone know where the documentation on the transaction json?
1879 2014-04-03 21:55:12 <wangbus> is*
1880 2014-04-03 21:55:35 <wangbus> i found this -
1881 2014-04-03 21:55:50 <wangbus> "details" - An array of objects containing: account, address, category, amount, fee
1882 2014-04-03 21:56:48 <gmaxwell> wangbus: the documentation is in the rpc itself, use the help rpc.
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1885 2014-04-03 21:58:07 <wangbus> yea i went through it
1886 2014-04-03 21:58:25 <wangbus> sorry i meant i don't know what orphan, generate, immature
1887 2014-04-03 21:58:31 <wangbus> means in the details category
1888 2014-04-03 21:58:38 <wangbus> everything else seems straightforward
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1894 2014-04-03 22:02:55 <wangbus> gmaxwell: nvm found a write up of it.
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1916 2014-04-03 22:20:22 <SoftwareMechanic> Is there a good c/c++ library for interacting with bitcoin wallets?
1917 2014-04-03 22:20:40 <SoftwareMechanic> I was thinking about just linking to the bitcoin source, but there's a huge number of dependencies in there
1918 2014-04-03 22:20:52 <SoftwareMechanic> `I was looking for something more self contained
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1920 2014-04-03 22:21:57 <lechuga_> libbitcoin
1921 2014-04-03 22:23:34 <SoftwareMechanic> ill check it out
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1925 2014-04-03 22:25:12 <SoftwareMechanic> hmmm, not seeing any wallet functionality in there
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1928 2014-04-03 22:25:56 <sipa> do you need a library to interact with a wallet, or to be a wallet?
1929 2014-04-03 22:26:09 <sipa> the first i would interpret as some json-rpc client library
1930 2014-04-03 22:26:15 <sipa> the latter as something like bitcoinj
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1933 2014-04-03 22:27:43 <SoftwareMechanic> be a wallet really, but I have generated the elements of the bip32 wallet for some embedded device, and now I want to save those elements to a file for unit testing against a known implementation, such as armory.
1934 2014-04-03 22:28:16 <SoftwareMechanic> I was thinking I could just serialize my wallet information to a wallet.dat file and go from there, but it looks very involved, with merkle trees and such
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1936 2014-04-03 22:28:40 <vetch> SoftwareMechanic: Armory doesn't use BIP32 key derivation at all.
1937 2014-04-03 22:28:46 <sipa> (not yet)
1938 2014-04-03 22:28:54 <sipa> nor does bitcoind
1939 2014-04-03 22:29:05 <SoftwareMechanic> hmmm, didn't know that.
1940 2014-04-03 22:30:08 <SoftwareMechanic> The essential element I'm trying to experiment with is implement offline signing
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1943 2014-04-03 22:30:52 <SoftwareMechanic> And was using armory to generate the offline BIP10 transaction, but it wants another wallet to do it
1944 2014-04-03 22:31:16 <SoftwareMechanic> But looks like I need to code it, and just bring in the required information manually
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1946 2014-04-03 22:32:26 <vetch> Electrum does both offline signing and BIP32 generation, if that's of any use to you.
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1978 2014-04-03 22:54:04 <SoftwareMechanic> @vetch Thanks, that is useful
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2004 2014-04-03 23:12:10 <deego> https://github.com/sipa/bips/blob/e04e99c315dd4067e267b62f84c9eeffeeccf94e/bip-0042.mediawiki LOL, thanks for a hearty laugh!
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2013 2014-04-03 23:33:11 <Luke-Jr> deego: ?
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2015 2014-04-03 23:36:25 <deego> Luke-Jr: Well, it's a bug, but it's a funny write-up, right?
2016 2014-04-03 23:38:25 <dexx> it's because of the date Luke-Jr
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2018 2014-04-03 23:38:56 * sipa believes Luke-Jr is well aware
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2046 2014-04-03 23:59:10 <axilla> anyone hiring a dev :(  Just got laid off