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10 2014-04-04 00:08:09 <SoftwareMechanic> Everyone is hiring devs
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22 2014-04-04 00:18:47 <BCB> axilla, what languages
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35 2014-04-04 00:28:51 <axilla> HTML5/CSS3/Javascript/Rails/PHP/Bash/Can Probably Learn anything with enough time but have no desire to learn Java or C++
36 2014-04-04 00:28:57 <axilla> do have some python exp.
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40 2014-04-04 00:32:18 <dexx> do you have a portfolio to show some webdesign stuff?
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42 2014-04-04 00:33:29 <axilla> sure
43 2014-04-04 00:33:34 <netg_> y
44 2014-04-04 00:33:40 <axilla> robogrowth-com.herokuapp.com
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46 2014-04-04 00:33:48 <netg_> would you considering coding 4 euqity#
47 2014-04-04 00:33:50 <axilla> http://ec2-54-84-14-33.compute-1.amazonaws.com/
48 2014-04-04 00:34:00 <netg_> in real solid/potential projects
49 2014-04-04 00:34:07 <axilla> http://netcamps.herokuapp.com/
50 2014-04-04 00:34:16 <axilla> some freelance stuff i've done
51 2014-04-04 00:34:19 <axilla> for various companies
52 2014-04-04 00:34:29 <axilla> www.github.com/fluffheadsr
53 2014-04-04 00:34:39 <axilla> php/opensource projects i've contributed to.
54 2014-04-04 00:34:55 <axilla> depends netg_
55 2014-04-04 00:35:01 <netg_> ok
56 2014-04-04 00:35:23 <axilla> if i like the idea, and the horizon of getting paid isnt to far away
57 2014-04-04 00:35:30 <netg_> yeah
58 2014-04-04 00:35:32 <axilla> i could probably contribute some code.
59 2014-04-04 00:35:45 <netg_> its the same answer all devs give :)
60 2014-04-04 00:36:11 <netg_> ok, i put you on my watchlist
61 2014-04-04 00:36:17 <netg_> on person to com
62 2014-04-04 00:36:34 <netg_> on person to contact wgebn codingis neede
63 2014-04-04 00:36:35 <axilla> well, most non-dev's come to you with this line, "Hey i got this website i need made, shouldn't take anymore than 3-4hrs. Very Easy, just need this this this this and this."
64 2014-04-04 00:36:47 <axilla> Oh yea you know how many hours it should take? You're a developer then eh?
65 2014-04-04 00:36:51 <netg_> yeah
66 2014-04-04 00:37:09 <netg_> no, no, doing full time coin proejcts
67 2014-04-04 00:37:16 <axilla> would love to
68 2014-04-04 00:37:20 <netg_> but now i want to launch
69 2014-04-04 00:37:25 <axilla> i've been doing things i don't like for to long
70 2014-04-04 00:37:31 <netg_> like 10 big sites/projects
71 2014-04-04 00:37:37 <Luke-Jr> guys, this isn't really bitcoin-related.. maybe take it to PM?
72 2014-04-04 00:37:44 <netg_> sorry man
73 2014-04-04 00:37:49 <netg_> sorry luke
74 2014-04-04 00:37:56 <Luke-Jr> np
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76 2014-04-04 00:38:07 <axilla> yea np
77 2014-04-04 00:38:22 <axilla> gonna go watch a movie with the wife and appreciate life :)
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80 2014-04-04 00:39:18 <Luke-Jr> axilla: you might try #bitcoin-otc also btw
81 2014-04-04 00:39:43 <axilla> thx :)
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83 2014-04-04 00:40:25 <axilla> i have a odesk profile with nearly a 5* review record.
84 2014-04-04 00:40:39 <axilla> anyway later
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104 2014-04-04 00:56:21 <tg2> quick q, if I wanted to have a stratum relay wherein miners connect to the relay server with a login/pass and then the relay connects to a downstream stratum server with a single account, is this possible?
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106 2014-04-04 00:57:33 <tg2> used bithopper before but it doesn't scale well
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114 2014-04-04 01:09:11 <olalonde> hola
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137 2014-04-04 01:38:17 <warren> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees#Sending is the "all outputs" point still true in 0.9?
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207 2014-04-04 03:08:11 <fuegofuego2> hey does anybody know how to turn this data on a logfile? printscreen: http://i62.tinypic.com/ae31xd.jpg I tryed out taking the source directly from the API provider without luck https://www.bitstamp.net/websocket/
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218 2014-04-04 03:17:35 <coinboywv> Hi all, I'm working on understanding the JSON calls to Bitcoin-QT and I can't quite get anything to connect up to my server. I can go to the address via http://<IP ADDRESS>:<PORT> and it comes back with, "{"result":null,"error":{"code":-32700,"message":"Parse error"},"id":null}" Where do I go from here to start passing along commands to the server easily?
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228 2014-04-04 03:23:21 <lachesis> "Warning: The network does not appear to fully agree! Some miners appear to be experiencing issues."
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230 2014-04-04 03:24:18 <lachesis> i'm on v 90000, and block height is 293768 for some reason
231 2014-04-04 03:24:39 <deego> lachesis: What version of bitcoin ?
232 2014-04-04 03:24:44 <lachesis> v0.9.0
233 2014-04-04 03:24:50 <copumpkin> 294084 is current
234 2014-04-04 03:25:02 <lachesis> that's what i see on blockchain.info, ya
235 2014-04-04 03:25:36 <lachesis> ugh how do i force the bitcoind to leave safemode?
236 2014-04-04 03:25:41 <lachesis> i want to find the hash of my top block
237 2014-04-04 03:26:05 aynstein_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
238 2014-04-04 03:26:30 <Luke-Jr> lachesis: -safemode=0
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241 2014-04-04 03:26:53 <lachesis> Luke-Jr: anything else i should do before i restart to aid debugging if a restart fixes it
242 2014-04-04 03:26:54 <lachesis> ?
243 2014-04-04 03:27:08 <Luke-Jr> dunno
244 2014-04-04 03:27:22 <lachesis> k, well restart it is
245 2014-04-04 03:28:01 Anan has quit (Quit: Page closed)
246 2014-04-04 03:28:08 <lachesis> https://gist.github.com/lachesis/28eb858cdf67cc290462
247 2014-04-04 03:28:15 <lachesis> database corrupted, huh?
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251 2014-04-04 03:29:22 <lachesis> https://gist.github.com/lachesis/28eb858cdf67cc290462 now it's looping this
252 2014-04-04 03:30:07 <Luke-Jr> lachesis: did you downgrade?
253 2014-04-04 03:30:11 <lachesis> no
254 2014-04-04 03:30:14 <lachesis> i'm on 0.9.0
255 2014-04-04 03:30:19 <lachesis> it was working fine for some time
256 2014-04-04 03:30:27 <lachesis> i am on a newer version of bdb
257 2014-04-04 03:30:45 <lachesis> 5.1 i think
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259 2014-04-04 03:31:40 <copumpkin> I thought bdb was gone
260 2014-04-04 03:31:54 <lachesis> *shrug* bitcoind is linked against it
261 2014-04-04 03:32:38 <lachesis> so what should i do about this corruption detected message?
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266 2014-04-04 03:34:02 <lachesis> gmaxwell: around?
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268 2014-04-04 03:35:45 <Luke-Jr> lachesis: get a new hard drive maybe
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270 2014-04-04 03:36:33 <Luke-Jr> although hard to rule out memory
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277 2014-04-04 03:40:00 <lachesis> why does it say "Aborted block database rebuild. Exiting." ?
278 2014-04-04 03:40:04 <lachesis> i don't have any errors in dmesg from hdd
279 2014-04-04 03:40:07 <lachesis> and it's a RAID 1
280 2014-04-04 03:40:27 <Luke-Jr> lachesis: because you're not running a GUI
281 2014-04-04 03:40:30 <lachesis> of drives that were (until recently) in a ZFS array
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284 2014-04-04 03:45:17 <lachesis> this will be my first time running bitcoin-qt
285 2014-04-04 03:45:24 <lachesis> i've been on bitcoind since the wxwindows days
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287 2014-04-04 03:49:24 <Luke-Jr> you could use -reindex to have bitcoind do it :p
288 2014-04-04 03:49:33 <Luke-Jr> -qt is nice though
289 2014-04-04 03:49:35 <lachesis> oh now you tell me :)
290 2014-04-04 03:49:38 <lachesis> qt just finished building
291 2014-04-04 03:49:44 <lachesis> i think i'll fire it up, wonder how it looks now
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294 2014-04-04 03:50:37 <Luke-Jr> lachesis: Bitcoin-Qt has no relation to wxBitcoin, besides using the core bitcoin code
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299 2014-04-04 03:54:58 <Belxjander> wxBitCoin?
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303 2014-04-04 03:56:14 <Luke-Jr> Belxjander: the original client Satoshi wrote
304 2014-04-04 03:56:25 <Belxjander> ahhh okay
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309 2014-04-04 04:01:15 <warren> anyone have an example of what gettransaction looks like if you query a double-spent txid?
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337 2014-04-04 04:14:50 <Luke-Jr> warren: in 0.9, "confirmations": -1 I think
338 2014-04-04 04:15:22 <Luke-Jr> (check for <0, not ==-1)
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362 2014-04-04 04:32:27 <phrackage> Before I go making up my own DB - is there any online service or API that allows me to get the fiat equivalent of historical blockchain transactions (for a couple of popular exchanges)?
363 2014-04-04 04:32:40 kuzetsa has quit (Quit: Stop doing that it. You don't want it to fall off.)
364 2014-04-04 04:32:45 <lachesis> Luke-Jr: what are your thoughts on the selfish mining paper? it seems sane to me, but i don't see people in the bitcoin community shouting about it.
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373 2014-04-04 04:35:11 <olalonde> hi all. is there any technical difference between a cold start (0 blocks downloaded) and a normal start?
374 2014-04-04 04:35:20 <olalonde> or are both cases pretty much handled the same
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379 2014-04-04 04:36:08 <gmaxwell> I can't think of any difference off the top of my head.
380 2014-04-04 04:36:13 RoboTeddy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
381 2014-04-04 04:36:20 <olalonde> ok
382 2014-04-04 04:36:31 RoboTeddy has joined
383 2014-04-04 04:36:35 <olalonde> I guess except bitcoind specific stuff like creating the proper directory structure
384 2014-04-04 04:36:47 rappo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
385 2014-04-04 04:36:50 <Luke-Jr> lachesis: tired of answering about nonsense papers written by clueless people
386 2014-04-04 04:37:11 <lachesis> Luke-Jr: alright...
387 2014-04-04 04:37:36 <gmaxwell> lachesis: I think luke is being a bit harsh there, but it's been extensively discussed elsewhere...
388 2014-04-04 04:37:37 <olalonde> what paper?
389 2014-04-04 04:37:59 rappo has joined
390 2014-04-04 04:39:22 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: meh, that one may have been on the "less bad" end, but in general these kind of papers are rubbish
391 2014-04-04 04:39:59 <gmaxwell> I'm perhaps more sympathetic after talking to one of the authors in person. It certantly got a lot of rubbish promotion.
392 2014-04-04 04:40:03 aynstein has joined
393 2014-04-04 04:40:35 <BCB> what is the difference betweek block verion 1 and version 2
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395 2014-04-04 04:40:38 <gmaxwell> lachesis: basically they have some assumptions which are not realistic (that the attacker has a communications advantage), and their proposed fix creates a more reliable vulnerability at hashrates pools are actually at. There might be some improvement to be made, but the prefer first block generally creates incentives against withholding. There is also an interesting point that doing this delays your income, not a great strategy while ...
396 2014-04-04 04:40:44 <gmaxwell> ... the hashrate is rising exponentially.
397 2014-04-04 04:41:16 <lachesis> gmaxwell: that's an interesting point.
398 2014-04-04 04:41:29 Cryo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
399 2014-04-04 04:41:49 <lachesis> gmaxwell: i wasn't conscious of that assumption, but now that i look at it, it does seem dubious
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401 2014-04-04 04:42:03 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: they need to get over themselves, realise nobody cares to steal credit for their stupid paper, and verify facts :P
402 2014-04-04 04:42:09 <gmaxwell> Ultimately there may be some improvements to make there, but sorting out the best approach is hard and the current behaviorâ of prefering the first block you heardâ does strongly encourage the right behavior, assuming no network position advantage. ... with it being so easily detected if its going on it wouldn't seem prudent to be overly hasty.
403 2014-04-04 04:42:20 <BCB> and what is the diff between blk00000.dat and blk00002 data structures
404 2014-04-04 04:42:27 emowataji has joined
405 2014-04-04 04:42:29 <lachesis> i suppose the honest and attacking pools would both have similar connectivity
406 2014-04-04 04:42:38 <lachesis> although they both have better connectivity than my node
407 2014-04-04 04:42:48 <gmaxwell> BCB: block v2 has the height in coinbase.
408 2014-04-04 04:43:05 <BCB> and what is the diff between blk00000.dat and blk00002 data structures
409 2014-04-04 04:43:14 <gmaxwell> lachesis: it's more than that, to get the full effect described in the paper the attacker must sybil the network so they always hear block announcements first and can preempt them.
410 2014-04-04 04:43:23 <gmaxwell> BCB: -ENONSENSEQUESTION
411 2014-04-04 04:43:25 aynstei__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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413 2014-04-04 04:44:51 <BCB> gmaxwell, my parser works on blk00000.dat but breaks on blk00001.dat
414 2014-04-04 04:44:56 <gmaxwell> BCB: there is no difference the blk%5d.dat files are all just more blocks.
415 2014-04-04 04:45:07 <gmaxwell> BCB: welp perhaps you should fix your code?
416 2014-04-04 04:45:09 <gmaxwell> :P
417 2014-04-04 04:45:19 <BCB> gmaxwell, working on that
418 2014-04-04 04:45:35 <gmaxwell> :)
419 2014-04-04 04:45:36 <Luke-Jr> BCB: there's nothing that prevents garbage corruption at the end of the file (which is then later appended onto)
420 2014-04-04 04:45:47 <BCB> hmm interesting
421 2014-04-04 04:46:05 <gmaxwell> yea, you might have had a truncated write with an unclean shutdown, and then it just appended to it.
422 2014-04-04 04:46:20 <gmaxwell> there is currently no blockfile vacuum.
423 2014-04-04 04:46:28 <BCB> I'll write one
424 2014-04-04 04:46:39 <BCB> so is a rescan in order
425 2014-04-04 04:46:54 <vetch> gmaxwell: block vacuum? I'm still waiting for a pool boy.
426 2014-04-04 04:46:54 <BCB> ?
427 2014-04-04 04:47:03 <BCB> I don't do pools
428 2014-04-04 04:47:16 <vetch> memory pool, not mining pool.
429 2014-04-04 04:47:28 <BCB> ahhh I'll think about that
430 2014-04-04 04:47:44 Guest46140 has joined
431 2014-04-04 04:47:45 <kazcw> block vacuum... so you can move ~64MB of data on disk in order to save ~.25MB?
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435 2014-04-04 04:51:05 <gmaxwell> well I'll come about as a side effect of pruning in any case... and the blocks are now grouped in smaller files specifically to make that kind of rewriting more realistic (rewriting a 2gb file kinda stinks!)
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438 2014-04-04 04:53:22 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: why rewrite at all? just tell the OS to punch a hole.. :P
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442 2014-04-04 04:55:42 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, dat fragmentation
443 2014-04-04 04:55:42 airq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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445 2014-04-04 04:56:25 <phantomcircuit> BCB, the parser for blk*.dat in bitcoin-core is exceptionally forgiving of errors
446 2014-04-04 04:56:57 aynstein_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
447 2014-04-04 04:57:19 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: that's because Bitcoin Core *never* parses blk*.dat :P
448 2014-04-04 04:57:29 <SomeoneWeird> Luke-Jr, ahah
449 2014-04-04 04:57:32 rappo has joined
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452 2014-04-04 04:57:51 <BCB> phantomcircuit, I'm doing it in bash
453 2014-04-04 04:58:01 olalonde has joined
454 2014-04-04 04:58:03 <Luke-Jr> BCB: â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦
455 2014-04-04 04:58:13 <phantomcircuit> BCB, you're doing wat
456 2014-04-04 04:58:27 <BCB> I'm parsing block headers in bash
457 2014-04-04 04:58:29 <kazcw> /facebash
458 2014-04-04 04:58:52 HeySteve2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
459 2014-04-04 04:59:04 benrcole has joined
460 2014-04-04 04:59:08 <kazcw> what would possess you to do that?
461 2014-04-04 04:59:27 <BCB> kazcw then I'm going to write a parser in Fortran
462 2014-04-04 04:59:46 <phantomcircuit> BCB, please stop
463 2014-04-04 04:59:50 rdymac has quit (Read error: No route to host)
464 2014-04-04 04:59:51 <phantomcircuit> there's blood coming out of my eyes
465 2014-04-04 04:59:52 <Luke-Jr> ok now that's just too far
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472 2014-04-04 05:01:52 <BCB> i'm using xdd / hexdump and cat :P
473 2014-04-04 05:03:25 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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476 2014-04-04 05:04:31 <gmaxwell> BCB: pft. you're not writing it in bitcoin script?
477 2014-04-04 05:05:01 <BCB> gmaxwell, that is next
478 2014-04-04 05:05:05 spinza_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
479 2014-04-04 05:05:34 <Luke-Jr> BCB: just skip to Pythoncoin
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483 2014-04-04 05:07:50 <Belxjander> so however a local bitcoin "client" whether it is a wallet/node/miner handles the blockchain as block records is up to the implimentor?
484 2014-04-04 05:07:53 spinza has joined
485 2014-04-04 05:08:07 <Belxjander> as long as the protocol is 100% compliant with generated packets from the client concerned?
486 2014-04-04 05:08:33 <BCB> my first block in blk00001.dat is 25498 bytes??
487 2014-04-04 05:08:44 <BCB> that's a bit large no
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489 2014-04-04 05:09:01 <Belxjander> BCB: are you reading the DB data files directly?
490 2014-04-04 05:09:07 <BCB> yes
491 2014-04-04 05:09:10 <BCB> xdd
492 2014-04-04 05:09:17 <Belxjander> BCB: as that will be BerkeleyDB or LevelDB data...not BitCoin directly
493 2014-04-04 05:09:39 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: uh, of course.
494 2014-04-04 05:09:58 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: the block files are just blocks.
495 2014-04-04 05:10:07 <BCB> xdd -p blk.dat | grep -b -n f9beb4d9
496 2014-04-04 05:10:20 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: I've worked out a possible tweak that makes endian issues irrelevant as long as the data is processed in the same order afaict
497 2014-04-04 05:10:38 <BCB> first 2nd offset is 25498
498 2014-04-04 05:10:58 <BCB> *2nd
499 2014-04-04 05:11:20 <BCB> that a big freaking block
500 2014-04-04 05:11:44 <BCB> *xxd
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509 2014-04-04 05:20:06 <BCB> Luke-Jr, so how do I fix block corruption. Delete and redownload??
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516 2014-04-04 05:24:11 <BCB> gmaxwell, I fixed my code!
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526 2014-04-04 05:36:19 <phantomcircuit> BCB, cat blocks/blk*.dat > bootstrap.dat; bitcoind -loadblock=bootstrap.dat
527 2014-04-04 05:36:24 <phantomcircuit> er
528 2014-04-04 05:36:42 <phantomcircuit> you have to delete everything in between
529 2014-04-04 05:36:47 <phantomcircuit> but that's close enough
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556 2014-04-04 05:58:34 <etotheipi_> for signing multi-sig tx... you are supposed to put an OP_0 in place of signatures that aren't present, correct?
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558 2014-04-04 05:58:43 <etotheipi_> for some reason I can't find any examples of this
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567 2014-04-04 06:08:18 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: I don't think so. there's a BIP
568 2014-04-04 06:08:35 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: seriously, I can't find any examples
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570 2014-04-04 06:08:38 <etotheipi_> am I blind?
571 2014-04-04 06:08:51 AriseChikun has joined
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573 2014-04-04 06:09:09 <Luke-Jr> hm
574 2014-04-04 06:09:16 <Luke-Jr> guess the BIP doesn't have the sig details
575 2014-04-04 06:09:40 <etotheipi_> seriously, I've spent a lot of time looking for this...
576 2014-04-04 06:09:40 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: I *think* it's just the actual sigs, in order
577 2014-04-04 06:09:45 <Luke-Jr> skip ones you don't use
578 2014-04-04 06:10:08 <etotheipi_> oh I guess rather than chasing things around, I could just mess with my createSigScript method to try that
579 2014-04-04 06:10:30 Gyps has joined
580 2014-04-04 06:11:41 <etotheipi_> holy $#!+
581 2014-04-04 06:11:43 <etotheipi_> it worked
582 2014-04-04 06:11:45 <etotheipi_> thanks Luke-Jr !
583 2014-04-04 06:12:00 <Luke-Jr> XD
584 2014-04-04 06:12:02 <Luke-Jr> np
585 2014-04-04 06:12:21 <etotheipi_> just executed my first multi-sig spend... after like... forever
586 2014-04-04 06:12:31 <etotheipi_> thousands of lines of code later
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657 2014-04-04 07:22:53 <wumpus> phew... and, was it worth it?
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673 2014-04-04 07:51:31 <dcousens_> The constants 0x00 for HASH160, 0x80 for WIF and 0x05 for P2SH, are these following some kind of format or just randomly chosen constants?
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687 2014-04-04 08:04:08 <wumpus> not really, it's just a matter of claiming a number that's preferably not in use yet https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/List_of_address_prefixes
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691 2014-04-04 08:06:43 <petertodd> wumpus: reminds me: we should consider doing a BIP with just a list of address prefixes
692 2014-04-04 08:06:58 <dcousens> thanks wumpus
693 2014-04-04 08:08:13 <petertodd> wumpus: e.g. I'm going to be picking at least one for stealth addresses soon. I'm also wondering if the model of a single version byte is really the right way to go, given that it looks like addresses may be useful even when they aren't seen by humans in the "this is how I want you to create the actual scriptPubKey(s)" model
694 2014-04-04 08:08:18 <wumpus> petertodd: yes, although it will probably be a fight what to include
695 2014-04-04 08:08:26 <petertodd> wumpus: certainly!
696 2014-04-04 08:08:45 <wumpus> 'why is litecoin in this list, but not mypoopcoin?'
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698 2014-04-04 08:09:06 <petertodd> wumpus: it would have been better had addresses had a generic "chain UUID" in them, along with another number for the type
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700 2014-04-04 08:09:12 beachandbytes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
701 2014-04-04 08:09:52 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: each address version has its own BIP :p
702 2014-04-04 08:09:53 k9quaint has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
703 2014-04-04 08:10:07 <petertodd> for instance we kinda wound up re-inventing that for the OpenPGP address extension I'm helping with
704 2014-04-04 08:10:26 <wumpus> right, the type of address and the chain has been combined into one byte, that leaves very little wiggle room
705 2014-04-04 08:10:27 <Luke-Jr> it looks like addresses may be useful even when they aren't seen by humans in the "this is how I want you to create the actual scriptPubKey(s)" model <--- um, just send the actual sPK..
706 2014-04-04 08:10:34 <petertodd> wumpus: yup!
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708 2014-04-04 08:11:09 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: for stealth addresses there is no "actual sPK" to send - the scriptPubKey used depends on the sender and can't be "just" specified by the receiver
709 2014-04-04 08:11:12 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: rather, there simply is no "chain identifier" at all; the alts are just abusing it ;P
710 2014-04-04 08:11:19 <wumpus> I'm sure there are already more altcoins than address prefixes (though that's their problem, they don't have to use the bitcoin convention at all)
711 2014-04-04 08:11:30 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: hm, true
712 2014-04-04 08:11:31 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: meh, might as well be pragmatic IMO and give them a catch-all UUID
713 2014-04-04 08:11:46 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: you know I wrote up a possible spec that DID have a chain id..?
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715 2014-04-04 08:12:02 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: similarly, BIP32 chain ID's can't have the scriptPubKey specified up front
716 2014-04-04 08:12:05 <wumpus> it's just that, for bitcoin, no one is interested in switching the address encoding
717 2014-04-04 08:12:07 <wumpus> it works so...
718 2014-04-04 08:12:09 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: oh yeah?
719 2014-04-04 08:12:49 Tiraspol has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
720 2014-04-04 08:13:13 <Luke-Jr> https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg02183.html
721 2014-04-04 08:13:26 <Luke-Jr> 11 months ago :P
722 2014-04-04 08:14:55 <Luke-Jr> the actual format spec is a comment in the example code
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724 2014-04-04 08:15:19 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: ah, right, I remember that now
725 2014-04-04 08:15:35 <Luke-Jr> wow, I even wrote a test suite XD
726 2014-04-04 08:17:12 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: I'd do a 128-bit UUID for the alt-chain ids so we can get out of the business of trying to allocate them
727 2014-04-04 08:17:40 <warren> hmm
728 2014-04-04 08:17:40 <warren> "version" : 99900,
729 2014-04-04 08:17:48 <warren> the next release will not be a 0.9.x?
730 2014-04-04 08:17:52 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: then everyhting gets long
731 2014-04-04 08:18:13 <Luke-Jr> warren: if it is, it'd be based on the 0.9.x branch I'd think
732 2014-04-04 08:18:22 <warren> ugh
733 2014-04-04 08:18:22 <Luke-Jr> warren: remember it got branched off master before 0.9.0
734 2014-04-04 08:18:24 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: I'm thinking about this assuming that most uses of these "advanced addresses" will be hidden from the user in payment requests, OpenPGP keys etc.
735 2014-04-04 08:18:30 <warren> Luke-Jr: it did? damn
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737 2014-04-04 08:18:56 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: then binary works fine :P
738 2014-04-04 08:19:07 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: e.g. the stealth address standard results in some really long addresses at worst, an at the same time, it was mainly developed so you could put an address in OpenPGP
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741 2014-04-04 08:19:43 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: exactly - our OpenPGP prototype just takes the raw bytes of an address, chops off the checksum bytes, and encodes it in a new type of user attribute
742 2014-04-04 08:20:01 <Luke-Jr> eh, might want to keep the checksum
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745 2014-04-04 08:20:18 <Luke-Jr> might be okay for PGP, but if you want something generic..
746 2014-04-04 08:20:19 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: the user attribute data is signed, so I'm not too worried there
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748 2014-04-04 08:20:50 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: right, I think any standard should have a "human-readable" version of the encoding which has a well-defined checksum
749 2014-04-04 08:21:40 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: anyhow, c32d could easily be extended to a longer namespace size; but I think gmaxwell had suggested some other improvements too, so might be good to look at those if you want to do something
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752 2014-04-04 08:22:22 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: cool, link?
753 2014-04-04 08:22:46 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: this might get added to dark wallet and released relatively soon - they want to ship stealth address support in the next two or three weeks
754 2014-04-04 08:23:01 airq has joined
755 2014-04-04 08:23:02 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: lol, I'm not that organised :D
756 2014-04-04 08:23:43 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: ha
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779 2014-04-04 08:44:14 <sipa> dcousens: originally intendrd to follow a pattern, but by changingnthe pattern all the time, effectively mostly arbitrary
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797 2014-04-04 08:59:25 <vetch> wumpus, Luke-Jr: regarding the version byte for future bitcoin address types, most of the "altcoins" seem to stick to alpha characters and ignore the numerical ones altogether. from a quick trawl of they altcoins subform on bitcointalk the ones what have bothered to change it just use the first letter of the coin name and picks the relevant address byte to match it. a large number seem not to bother at all and just use the same ones Bitcoin uses.
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800 2014-04-04 09:00:11 <vetch> wumpus, Luke-Jr: didn't see any Qs but there's literally hundreds of them to collate at this point. the fact that there's a number of altcoins using the same bytes as bitcoin suggests confusion isn't so much of an issue, right?
801 2014-04-04 09:00:39 <Luke-Jr> vetch: my point is, the altcoins are not "real"
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803 2014-04-04 09:01:19 <arjen-jonathan> when *HaveCoins* on a CCoinsViewCache returns false, does that mean the coins are spent? Or can it also just indicate a cache miss?
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807 2014-04-04 09:02:13 <vetch> Luke-Jr: of course they're not real. the issue lies in people thinking they are and associating a particular address type with a pump and dump rather than a stealth address.
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810 2014-04-04 09:02:49 <vetch> or whatever address type a conflicted version byte represents.
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812 2014-04-04 09:07:20 <arjen-jonathan> Any devs here at this hour?
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826 2014-04-04 09:28:45 <wumpus> arjen-jonathan: it means that a) the coins are spent or b) the input doesn't exist at all
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829 2014-04-04 09:31:47 <olalonde> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#tx <-- is this the same format as the forma inside blocks?
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831 2014-04-04 09:33:22 <wumpus> alecalve: yes
832 2014-04-04 09:34:37 austinhill has joined
833 2014-04-04 09:34:47 <olalonde> answer: yes
834 2014-04-04 09:35:04 <wumpus> transactions always use the same format, that's pretty nice
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839 2014-04-04 09:41:13 <arjen-jonathan> wumpus: What does "does not exist at all" mean then? i.e.: It is an 'invalid' transaction or 'we don't know about this input and should get it'
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842 2014-04-04 09:42:48 <wumpus> it would usually mean it is invalid, someone could just make up a txid/vout pair
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844 2014-04-04 09:43:12 <wumpus> I just mean that using the function there is no way to distinguish between a spent output and one that doesn't exist
845 2014-04-04 09:43:37 <wumpus> but for the use case it doesn't matter as in both cases they're not valid for spending
846 2014-04-04 09:47:22 <arjen-jonathan> Ah thanks.
847 2014-04-04 09:47:29 <arjen-jonathan> Can I ask you something else?
848 2014-04-04 09:47:36 <wumpus> don't ask to ask, just ask
849 2014-04-04 09:47:52 <wumpus> even if I don't know one of the 552 other peopl in the channel might
850 2014-04-04 09:47:56 <arjen-jonathan> How would one go about finding out at what height a downloaded block is in the blockchain?
851 2014-04-04 09:48:08 Coincidental has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
852 2014-04-04 09:48:16 <arjen-jonathan> (assuming I might still be downloading new blocks)
853 2014-04-04 09:49:21 <arjen-jonathan> Does a node know at what height the longest chain in the network is? Even if it's still downloading blocks
854 2014-04-04 09:49:33 <wumpus> what is the use case? you have a pointer to a CBlock structure and want to find out the height?
855 2014-04-04 09:50:02 <arjen-jonathan> I only have a pointer to the transaction for now.
856 2014-04-04 09:50:17 <wumpus> a node always knows the height because it can find the way back to the genesis block
857 2014-04-04 09:50:25 airq has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
858 2014-04-04 09:50:44 <arjen-jonathan> Oh, yes sorry. I need the depth actually.
859 2014-04-04 09:50:52 <wumpus> wtx.GetDepthInMainChain() ?
860 2014-04-04 09:50:56 airq has joined
861 2014-04-04 09:51:12 <arjen-jonathan> Would that work even if we're still downloading new blocks?
862 2014-04-04 09:51:30 <arjen-jonathan> Say if I've been offline for a while, downloading blocks, would I get an accure depth?
863 2014-04-04 09:52:09 <wumpus> depth is always relative to the current synchonization/indexing position
864 2014-04-04 09:52:39 <wumpus> if you have been offline for a while, all newer transactions are at depth 0 (unconfirmed)
865 2014-04-04 09:53:16 <arjen-jonathan> So depth is a local property?
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868 2014-04-04 09:53:38 <arjen-jonathan> Is there a notion of depth of a transaction with respect to what the network agreed on?
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892 2014-04-04 10:08:10 <arjen-jonathan> Anyone? Is there any notion inside a node of the depth of a block in the network (in contrast to the local known depth)?
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898 2014-04-04 10:13:55 <EricLarch> Hello. I wrote a BIP draft about a Bitcoin address authentification protocol for websites and applications. It is available here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=557037.0 ; my question is : should I post it to the bitcoin-dev mailing list, or is it better to keep the discussion on Bitcointalk until there is at least some support from the community ?
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902 2014-04-04 10:17:11 <wumpus> arjen-jonathan: no
903 2014-04-04 10:17:40 <wumpus> arjen-jonathan: in general in P2P, everything is local, and relative to your own view of things
904 2014-04-04 10:19:09 <wumpus> arjen-jonathan: you'd need a SPV client to know where a transaction is in the chain without downloading and verifying all the blocks
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906 2014-04-04 10:27:21 <arjen-jonathan> That makes sense.
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921 2014-04-04 10:46:02 <Luke-Jr> EricLarch: BitcoinTalk is just trolls, all real development is on IRC and the ML
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924 2014-04-04 10:49:33 <archrs> looks cool, eric
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926 2014-04-04 10:49:57 <olalonde> I wonder why satoshi didn't make it possible to spend just part of a txout
927 2014-04-04 10:49:59 <Luke-Jr> EricLarch: also, your URI is malformed. and the current spec doesn't mean the expected standards for signed messages (timestamp followed by human-readable contract)
928 2014-04-04 10:50:21 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: that's vulnerable to races
929 2014-04-04 10:50:53 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: ie, the same kind of problem as if it had address balances
930 2014-04-04 10:51:02 <olalonde> Luke-Jr: care to elaborate?
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932 2014-04-04 10:51:06 <olalonde> or link to somewhere
933 2014-04-04 10:51:28 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986
934 2014-04-04 10:51:38 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: oh, that link is for EricLarch sorry
935 2014-04-04 10:51:50 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: there's nothing to link to for you
936 2014-04-04 10:51:54 <olalonde> haha ok
937 2014-04-04 10:52:48 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: if you had an output with 2 BTC, then you could make two transactions spending 1 BTC from it. then you can't safely double-spend it.
938 2014-04-04 10:52:51 <olalonde> so you think a system like bitcoin where you can transfer only a fraction of the value of a TxOut wouldn't work?
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941 2014-04-04 10:53:52 <olalonde> "you can't safely double spend it"? isn't that a good thing?
942 2014-04-04 10:53:55 <Luke-Jr> no
943 2014-04-04 10:54:20 <Luke-Jr> double spending is not always bad
944 2014-04-04 10:54:40 <Luke-Jr> for example, if you don't include enough of a fee, you need to double-spend to safely add a fee (in some cases at least)
945 2014-04-04 10:54:50 <Luke-Jr> or you end up goxing yourself
946 2014-04-04 10:54:54 <olalonde> perhaps it would make the system more complex to implement
947 2014-04-04 10:55:09 <olalonde> but I don't see the hard theoretical problems with such a scheme
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949 2014-04-04 10:55:40 <olalonde> ah ok I think I see what you mean
950 2014-04-04 10:55:52 Geko_ has joined
951 2014-04-04 10:56:11 <olalonde> if you re sent the same transaction, both transactions could get confirmed
952 2014-04-04 10:56:34 Geko_ has left ()
953 2014-04-04 10:57:19 <olalonde> right, makes sense
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957 2014-04-04 10:58:45 <olalonde> there could be an additional field that would say the value left on the txout after the transaction but yeah.. not very practical
958 2014-04-04 10:58:55 airq has joined
959 2014-04-04 10:59:30 <HM> http://preshing.com/20131219/bitcoin-address-generator-in-obfuscated-python/
960 2014-04-04 10:59:34 <HM> this is so cool
961 2014-04-04 10:59:38 <HM> and so old :(
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1009 2014-04-04 11:31:01 <EricLarch> Luke-Jr: thanks
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1011 2014-04-04 11:33:35 <vetch> HM: that's sort of awkward that he only blurred a tiny part of the key. I know there's no money at stake but it's really no protection at all.
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1014 2014-04-04 11:34:25 <vetch> HM: we know the font and the shape of the letters underneath. it wouldn't be a whole lot of work to run through the small number of missing characters and recover the key.
1015 2014-04-04 11:34:44 <vetch> never blur sensitive data. never never never.
1016 2014-04-04 11:35:00 <EricLarch> Luke-Jr : where is the URI invalid ? I checked using http://www.websitedev.de/temp/rfc3986-check.html.gz and it passes
1017 2014-04-04 11:35:27 <Luke-Jr> EricLarch: :// is for locations only
1018 2014-04-04 11:35:40 <Luke-Jr> EricLarch: hence mailto: and bitcoin: do not have //
1019 2014-04-04 11:36:46 Insti has joined
1020 2014-04-04 11:38:39 <EricLarch> Luke-JR : understood, I'll correct it
1021 2014-04-04 11:39:07 <EricLarch> Luke-Jr : is the human readable message strictly enforcable ? because there is a language problem
1022 2014-04-04 11:39:21 jordandotdev has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
1023 2014-04-04 11:39:32 <EricLarch> Luke-Jr : it will be up to the wallet to present the authentication request in a human readable format, in the language of choice
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1028 2014-04-04 11:43:54 <vetch> EricLarch: how often do you find yourself buying something on a foreign website you don't know the language of?
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1031 2014-04-04 11:46:46 <EricLarch> vtech : if I'm on a French website, the message to sign should be in French ; it just means that the URI must contain the message to sign in plain text and a parsable version for the wallet to understand
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1037 2014-04-04 11:55:24 <aekym> Hi, I have an issue with submitting a raw transaction
1038 2014-04-04 11:55:31 <aekym> Up to signrawtransaction everything is ok
1039 2014-04-04 11:55:36 eristisk has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1040 2014-04-04 11:55:57 <aekym> But on sendrawtransaction I get 'Tx rejected'
1041 2014-04-04 11:56:06 <aekym> Bitcoind 0.8.5
1042 2014-04-04 11:56:18 samson_ has joined
1043 2014-04-04 11:56:20 <aekym> Help is very much appreciated
1044 2014-04-04 11:56:28 <vetch> vetch: the URI is not really human readable. any text displayed to the user can be customisable.
1045 2014-04-04 11:56:37 <vetch> er, EricLarch
1046 2014-04-04 11:57:08 <vetch> aekym: how's your fees? you should also probably upgrade either way.
1047 2014-04-04 11:59:30 <aekym> Upgrade, I know, but don't have the time right now. Need to fix the issue first..
1048 2014-04-04 11:59:35 <EricLarch> vtech : I'll amend the BIP draft in this direction
1049 2014-04-04 11:59:39 <aekym> Fee is standard 0.0001
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1053 2014-04-04 12:01:02 <vetch> what's the reject message?
1054 2014-04-04 12:02:33 <aekym> "TX rejected"
1055 2014-04-04 12:02:35 <aekym> Code -22
1056 2014-04-04 12:02:49 <aekym> Probably coming from here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/0.8.5/src/rpcrawtransaction.cpp#L562
1057 2014-04-04 12:05:13 <aekym> The very same source code runs just fine within the testnet, but in the normal bitcoin network I'm having trouble
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1062 2014-04-04 12:08:13 <vetch> I think the debug.log gives a better reject message with a reason.
1063 2014-04-04 12:09:35 justanot1eruser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1064 2014-04-04 12:09:52 <vetch> though the "mucho data" reason is so hilarious that it looks to have been removed, sadly.
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1067 2014-04-04 12:13:51 <wumpus> in master you get better error reporting on sendrawtransaction
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1075 2014-04-04 12:21:12 <olalonde> question about nLockTime... what is it supposed to do? a transaction is not valid if one of its txin has a nLockTime > current time?
1076 2014-04-04 12:21:45 <olalonde> or is the transaction valid but its output can't be spent until nLockTime
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1078 2014-04-04 12:24:21 <vetch> a transaction is invalid until the time.
1079 2014-04-04 12:24:30 <sipa> olalonde: valid, but not confirmable before the locktime has expired
1080 2014-04-04 12:24:48 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1081 2014-04-04 12:24:49 <sipa> so it cannot be included in the blockchain until that time
1082 2014-04-04 12:24:58 <vetch> the time or the block height, whichever the value is parsed as.
1083 2014-04-04 12:25:11 <olalonde> I see... is there any use case for this? seems like the equivalent of just waiting the nLockTime to broadcast the transaction
1084 2014-04-04 12:25:43 <sipa> olalonde: ican give you a paybackntransaction ahead of time for some deal we're going to do
1085 2014-04-04 12:25:54 <vetch> I can sign a transaction and give it to you. you can't do anything but wait until it is time to broadcast it. for contingencies for example.
1086 2014-04-04 12:25:58 <sipa> if the deal doesn't go through, younget your money back
1087 2014-04-04 12:26:06 <olalonde> but is there anything that prevents you from spending the same outputs?
1088 2014-04-04 12:26:13 <vetch> nope
1089 2014-04-04 12:26:15 <sipa> see the contracts page on the wiki
1090 2014-04-04 12:26:17 <sipa> nope
1091 2014-04-04 12:26:46 <olalonde> so what kind of assurance does having that transaction give me?
1092 2014-04-04 12:26:48 justanot1eruser has joined
1093 2014-04-04 12:27:37 <olalonde> maybe it could be used as a "dead man" switch?
1094 2014-04-04 12:28:23 <olalonde> like you give a transaction to someone that spends your cold storage coins and if you don't move your coins before nLockTime.. the person has access to your coins
1095 2014-04-04 12:28:50 <sipa> yuop
1096 2014-04-04 12:28:52 <sipa> yup
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1098 2014-04-04 12:28:58 <olalonde> cool
1099 2014-04-04 12:29:02 <sipa> but see the contracts page for more use cases
1100 2014-04-04 12:29:06 <olalonde> ok
1101 2014-04-04 12:29:21 <olalonde> thanks
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1106 2014-04-04 12:35:55 <olalonde> why do TxOuts have hash of transaction and index fields. Isn't that redundant information given that they are part of the transaction message?
1107 2014-04-04 12:36:42 <olalonde> oh nevermind
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1109 2014-04-04 12:36:53 <olalonde> there is a OutPoint structure defined in the wiki
1110 2014-04-04 12:37:01 <JyZyXEL> whats the point of having P2SH capability in an escrow market system?
1111 2014-04-04 12:37:02 <olalonde> and a TxOut structure
1112 2014-04-04 12:37:10 <aekym> debug.log tells: "ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : nonstandard transaction type"
1113 2014-04-04 12:37:33 <olalonde> oh outpoint is part of TxIn, nevermind
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1115 2014-04-04 12:38:56 <aekym> Not sure how I was able to achieve that..
1116 2014-04-04 12:40:43 <JyZyXEL> nevermind, i finally found a page that explains it clearly: https://www.belshe.com/2013/12/15/p2sh-safe-addresses/
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1119 2014-04-04 12:43:11 <aekym> Oh, that is interesting and explains why I haven't had the issue with the testnet:
1120 2014-04-04 12:43:13 <aekym> if (!fTestNet && !tx.IsStandard()) return error("CTxMemPool::accept() : nonstandard transaction type");
1121 2014-04-04 12:44:05 <aekym> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/0.8.5/src/main.cpp#L664
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1124 2014-04-04 12:45:49 <vetch> aekym: what were you doing to make your transaction not standard?
1125 2014-04-04 12:46:20 <aekym> ha, exactly my question
1126 2014-04-04 12:46:37 <aekym> building a raw tx
1127 2014-04-04 12:46:44 <aekym> but works perfectly fine in testnet
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1132 2014-04-04 12:49:48 <vetch> what does it consist of exactly?
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1135 2014-04-04 12:51:42 <aekym> Do you mean the details of the tx?
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1140 2014-04-04 12:54:23 <aekym> it's send to: {"1a...":0.00150524,"1b...":0.00001075,"1c...":0.00000007,"1d...":0.00284546}
1141 2014-04-04 12:54:33 agricocb has joined
1142 2014-04-04 12:54:33 <aekym> am i creating dust here?
1143 2014-04-04 12:55:21 <aekym> (it's one of the things that's checked in the IsStandard method)
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1150 2014-04-04 12:58:28 <Apocalyptic> 0.00000007 < obvious dust
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1152 2014-04-04 13:00:00 <aekym> Alright, so I either increase that txout or the fee?
1153 2014-04-04 13:00:16 <aekym> // so dust is a txout less than 54 uBTC // (5430 satoshis) with default nMinRelayTxFee
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1156 2014-04-04 13:01:27 <sipa> dust won't be relayed, even with a fee
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1160 2014-04-04 13:02:06 <aekym> Does that mean every txout needs to be at least 5430 satoshis--no matter what?
1161 2014-04-04 13:02:17 CheckDavid has joined
1162 2014-04-04 13:02:18 <sipa> yes and no
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1164 2014-04-04 13:02:36 <sipa> every txout needs to be at least 3 times the marginal cost for spending it
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1166 2014-04-04 13:02:41 <aekym> b/c I saw tx with txout = 1 satoshi
1167 2014-04-04 13:02:59 <sipa> that marginal cost is determined by the relay fee for every node, which is variable
1168 2014-04-04 13:03:23 <sipa> in time, that relay fee will be guessed based on data from the network
1169 2014-04-04 13:03:32 <sipa> rather than being hardcoded
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1171 2014-04-04 13:03:45 <aekym> makes sense
1172 2014-04-04 13:03:49 <sipa> you can manually decrease your minrelayfee, but that doesn't guarantee that your peers will do the same
1173 2014-04-04 13:04:04 <sipa> if you send it directly to a miner however, and they agree to mine it, everything is possible
1174 2014-04-04 13:04:19 <sipa> standardness doesn't apply to transactions once they are in blocks
1175 2014-04-04 13:04:28 <aekym> that may explain the tx i saw with 1 satoshi txout
1176 2014-04-04 13:04:29 <aekym> i guess
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1178 2014-04-04 13:05:21 <aekym> ok, will increase the one txout i can influence and if that doesn't work, i guess, i need to upgrade to 0.9 to get a better explanation of what's happening
1179 2014-04-04 13:06:00 <sipa> the default min relay decreased in 0.9 too, so it may happen that your node allows the transaction
1180 2014-04-04 13:06:09 <sipa> but that still doesn't guarantee that other nodes will
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1182 2014-04-04 13:07:15 <aekym> true, and there are better tools to check that with 0.9
1183 2014-04-04 13:07:34 <aekym> one thing, i really dislike that there is a different behavior for testnet and bitcoin network
1184 2014-04-04 13:07:54 <sipa> yes, i understand
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1186 2014-04-04 13:07:58 <olalonde> http://syskall.com/bitcoin-notes/svg/blockchain.svg anyone care to see if I my graphs make sense?
1187 2014-04-04 13:08:29 <Apocalyptic> 54 uBTC // (5430 satoshis) // do you even math ?
1188 2014-04-04 13:08:44 <sipa> olalonde: what do altcoins have to do with it?
1189 2014-04-04 13:08:55 <sipa> or what do you refer to by alt chains?
1190 2014-04-04 13:09:05 <sipa> also, orphan blocks are technically not part of the block chain
1191 2014-04-04 13:09:14 <olalonde> sipa: ah no.. perhaps i used a non standard nomenclatures.. I meant chains that diverge from the longest chain
1192 2014-04-04 13:09:33 <aekym> thanks for the help guys!
1193 2014-04-04 13:09:42 <sipa> olalonde: those are actually not part of the block chain either
1194 2014-04-04 13:09:48 <Apocalyptic> I was under the impression that the dust limit was something like 5** satoshis
1195 2014-04-04 13:09:59 <Apocalyptic> or of similar order of magnitude
1196 2014-04-04 13:10:03 <sipa> Apocalyptic: with the default minrelay fee in 0.9, yes
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1198 2014-04-04 13:10:14 <olalonde> sipa: I guess the blockchain here is called "main chain".
1199 2014-04-04 13:10:29 <sipa> olalonde: yeah, that's confusing nomenclature but standard i guess
1200 2014-04-04 13:10:30 <olalonde> sipa: orphan/altchains are still needed by clients so I included them
1201 2014-04-04 13:10:56 <sipa> olalonde: i prefer to call the whole set of blocks connectable to the genesis block "the block tree"
1202 2014-04-04 13:11:07 <olalonde> sipa: ok
1203 2014-04-04 13:11:09 <sipa> olalonde: one path through the block tree is the active/main chain, or "the block chain"
1204 2014-04-04 13:11:39 <sipa> orphan blocks are pieces of block tree(s) that are not connectable to genesis
1205 2014-04-04 13:11:50 <olalonde> right
1206 2014-04-04 13:12:02 <sipa> and you have dead branches of the block tree
1207 2014-04-04 13:12:12 <sipa> (which are commonly, but incorrectly, called orphaned blocks)
1208 2014-04-04 13:12:33 <sipa> which are potentially valid chains, but not active/main
1209 2014-04-04 13:12:42 <vetch> Apocalyptic: around 5400.
1210 2014-04-04 13:12:54 <sipa> vetch: in 0.8.x, yes
1211 2014-04-04 13:13:01 <Apocalyptic> i thing it's a degree of magnitude lower than that
1212 2014-04-04 13:13:01 <sipa> vetch: in 0.9, it's around 500
1213 2014-04-04 13:13:19 <olalonde> ok... so I'll rename bockchain to block tree and alt chains to dead branches ... and blockchain will only be connected to the longest chain
1214 2014-04-04 13:13:19 <sipa> or rather, with the default minrelayfee in 0.9
1215 2014-04-04 13:13:32 <sipa> as you can set it to whatever you like
1216 2014-04-04 13:13:37 <vetch> sipa: wouldn't most clients still be 0.8.x?
1217 2014-04-04 13:13:41 <sipa> vetch: yes
1218 2014-04-04 13:14:13 <vetch> got it. should be 500 but probably sill 5400 in practice.
1219 2014-04-04 13:14:36 <sipa> 546 or so
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1221 2014-04-04 13:15:33 <olalonde> how about the block diagram? (you can click Block X)
1222 2014-04-04 13:15:42 <BCB> phantomcircuit: thx
1223 2014-04-04 13:16:22 <sipa> olalonde: cool
1224 2014-04-04 13:16:34 <sipa> olalonde: you may want to organize the list of transactions into a merkle tree
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1226 2014-04-04 13:17:42 <aekym> I increased the txout to 5555 satoshis, but have the same issue
1227 2014-04-04 13:17:45 <olalonde> Right.. I was thinking about that actually
1228 2014-04-04 13:17:50 <aekym> I guess I need to upgrade to 0.9..
1229 2014-04-04 13:18:03 <olalonde> but was a bit hesitant because I want to stay close to how the protocol represents the structures
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1231 2014-04-04 13:19:54 <gavinandresen> sipa: was there ever consensus on what to call blocks in the tree that aren't on the best chain?
1232 2014-04-04 13:20:11 <sipa> gavinandresen: nope
1233 2014-04-04 13:20:30 <sipa> extinct chains, stale chains, dead branches, side branches, ...
1234 2014-04-04 13:20:35 <sipa> orphaned blocks
1235 2014-04-04 13:21:02 <vetch> dead branch sounds more like a tree.
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1238 2014-04-04 13:21:42 <sipa> dead blocks, stale blocks, side blocks, orphaned blocks, extinct blocks, ...
1239 2014-04-04 13:21:47 <sipa> inactive blocks :p
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1241 2014-04-04 13:21:55 <sipa> wha'evva
1242 2014-04-04 13:22:01 <vetch> they're all sort of a bit too final. the side chain can become the leader again.
1243 2014-04-04 13:22:15 <sipa> inactive, then?
1244 2014-04-04 13:23:16 <vetch> dead branch fits the tree analogy better. inactive branch fits the fact that they can become active again. none of the terms are perfect, but orphan is pretty much wrong.
1245 2014-04-04 13:24:32 <olalonde> I think dead branch might be confusing to a newbie because it sounds like the branch is dead forever
1246 2014-04-04 13:24:33 <hearn> side chain blocks, i thought
1247 2014-04-04 13:24:44 <hearn> thatâs how i always referred to them
1248 2014-04-04 13:25:17 <olalonde> I like side chains / orphan chains
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1250 2014-04-04 13:25:43 <vetch> well a chain can't become orphaned
1251 2014-04-04 13:25:48 <gavinandresen> Sidechain blocks sounds good. But sidecar blocks is funnier...
1252 2014-04-04 13:25:58 <olalonde> I didn't say orphaned.. I said orphan :P
1253 2014-04-04 13:26:16 <venzen> olalonde: dead forever - unless you believe in the Circle of Life ;)
1254 2014-04-04 13:26:23 <vetch> gavinandresen: between the "pool boy" process and sidecar blocks the core client is hilarious.
1255 2014-04-04 13:26:29 <olalonde> haha
1256 2014-04-04 13:26:54 <vetch> olalonde: well to become orphan you must be orphaned. both are impossible in this scenario.
1257 2014-04-04 13:27:13 <olalonde> mmmm so what should I call those :P
1258 2014-04-04 13:27:22 <vetch> transactions can become orphaned by losing their block in a reorg, blocks can't lose their path to the root.
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1260 2014-04-04 13:27:40 <vetch> side chains as sipa said seems the least confusing.
1261 2014-04-04 13:28:38 <olalonde> what about chains that are not connected to the blockchain (yet) ?
1262 2014-04-04 13:28:54 <olalonde> updated: http://syskall.com/bitcoin-notes/svg/blockchain.svg
1263 2014-04-04 13:28:56 <vetch> they're invalid, rejected
1264 2014-04-04 13:29:10 <venzen> blockaded
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1266 2014-04-04 13:29:17 <olalonde> but they're still a useful concept when learning how bitcoin clients work...
1267 2014-04-04 13:30:15 <sipa> i don't like side chains as that term is also used for the pegged side chain idea
1268 2014-04-04 13:30:23 <olalonde> right
1269 2014-04-04 13:30:29 <sipa> (independent chains that use the same currency as another chain)
1270 2014-04-04 13:30:33 <olalonde> alt chain taken.. side chain taken
1271 2014-04-04 13:30:37 <olalonde> :O
1272 2014-04-04 13:30:38 <olalonde> haha
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1274 2014-04-04 13:31:11 <sipa> < olalonde> what about chains that are not connected to the blockchain <- orphan blocks
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1276 2014-04-04 13:32:17 <olalonde> that's what i used initially but seems there is no consensus here :p
1277 2014-04-04 13:32:26 <sipa> it's how the source code calls them
1278 2014-04-04 13:32:31 <sipa> since forever
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1281 2014-04-04 13:35:23 <olalonde> http://syskall.com/bitcoin-notes/svg/transaction.svg how about this one :p
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1327 2014-04-04 14:05:48 <gavinandresen> ok, so the short answer to my original question is "no, there is no consensus on what they should be called." So they'll continue to be inaccurately called "orphan blocks" ....
1328 2014-04-04 14:06:17 <gavinandresen> I think I'll start calling them sidecar blocks. Because that's funny and unique.
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1336 2014-04-04 14:11:27 <olalonde> I think orphan block / orphan chain makes some sense
1337 2014-04-04 14:11:40 <olalonde> they have no parents
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1339 2014-04-04 14:13:33 <hearn> gavinandresen: unloved blocks
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1341 2014-04-04 14:14:23 <aynstein> now I have whitney houston in my head "Whats love got to do with it"
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1343 2014-04-04 14:14:38 <hearn> gavinandresen: btw what are you working on at the moment? just curious
1344 2014-04-04 14:15:27 <kallisti> hi, please excuse me but I'm a newbie... Is there any comprehensive documentation on the bitcoin protocol? I'm trying to learn it from the code and it is giving me a headache. I somewhat understand the mining side, and I've found that transactions are sent by "inv" messages, or so I think, but I can't see how these inv messages eventually become work for miners.
1345 2014-04-04 14:15:33 <gavinandresen> hearn: regression tests for the fee estimation work. That involved a detour into pull-tester-machine debugging, but I should be back on track
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1348 2014-04-04 14:16:25 <olalonde> kallisti: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
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1350 2014-04-04 14:17:08 <olalonde> kallisti: and you might find those diagrams helpful (work in progress): http://syskall.com/bitcoin-notes/svg/blockchain.svg
1351 2014-04-04 14:17:12 <kallisti> @oalonde, thanks, I'm actually looking at that page now.
1352 2014-04-04 14:17:27 <kallisti> Cool, that will help
1353 2014-04-04 14:18:49 <kallisti> I'm trying to find a numerical solution to forking, but to do that I really need to know every detail of the system
1354 2014-04-04 14:19:12 smash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1355 2014-04-04 14:19:15 <olalonde> what do you mean a solution to forking?
1356 2014-04-04 14:19:56 <kallisti> I mean a numerical rule, possibly using chaos theory, to resolve forks without politics.
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1358 2014-04-04 14:20:26 <helo> mining is the solution to forking afaik. i.e. whichever branch is getting the most work will win in the long run
1359 2014-04-04 14:20:26 <kallisti> I understand forks are born from code changes, but the resolution of those forks is very political
1360 2014-04-04 14:20:32 <helo> oh, those kinds of forks
1361 2014-04-04 14:20:39 <olalonde> my understanding is that forks are inherently social
1362 2014-04-04 14:21:20 <aynstein> social?
1363 2014-04-04 14:21:26 <olalonde> social/political
1364 2014-04-04 14:21:38 <kallisti> I don't want to go into too much detail, but it seems that the potential to fork the chain creates a security issue
1365 2014-04-04 14:21:40 <olalonde> they can't be resolved algorithmically
1366 2014-04-04 14:21:56 <t7> yet
1367 2014-04-04 14:22:02 <helo> there are natural forks that happen without code changes (where mining fixes it), and valid-disagreement-forks, where recognition, mining, and fixing the code is the solution
1368 2014-04-04 14:22:17 <aynstein> they are not resolved. Its not a risk its a feature. - take this to #bitcoin
1369 2014-04-04 14:22:19 <sipa> kallisti: the reason forks are inevitable is the speed of light; nothinb will fix that
1370 2014-04-04 14:22:47 <sipa> two nodes cannot deterministically decide whivh was first in case of a double spend
1371 2014-04-04 14:22:57 <kallisti> I must agree with t7
1372 2014-04-04 14:23:26 <helo> #bitcoin
1373 2014-04-04 14:23:41 <kallisti> Even if there is great randomness involved, there is always an order that can be found
1374 2014-04-04 14:23:52 <sipa> #bitcoin please
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1376 2014-04-04 14:24:26 <sipa> once you're ready to implement it, i'll be eager to hear about it here
1377 2014-04-04 14:24:35 <aynstein> :)
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1379 2014-04-04 14:25:12 <kallisti> @sipa, your speed of light analogy is very good, considering that the solutions I'm considering require virtual travel above the speed of light, using values from future hashes to resolve a fork, instead of politics.
1380 2014-04-04 14:25:31 <aynstein> ugh
1381 2014-04-04 14:25:34 <sipa> politics has nothing to do with it
1382 2014-04-04 14:25:36 <olalonde> hahaha
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1384 2014-04-04 14:25:50 <sipa> unless you're talking about code changes that result in forks
1385 2014-04-04 14:26:05 <kallisti> Of course it requires a waiting period, but the calculation itself (the formula) exists before those blocks are created
1386 2014-04-04 14:26:21 <olalonde> I assumed kallisti was refering to hard forks...
1387 2014-04-04 14:26:33 <gmaxwell> this is all offtopic for here.
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1389 2014-04-04 14:27:13 <kallisti> Either way, I'm searching the code to learn it, and believe that a watchdog can be added to the system to resolve forks
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1392 2014-04-04 14:27:24 <sipa> kallisti: what type of forks are you talking about?
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1396 2014-04-04 14:28:08 <kallisti> sipa, I'm talking about the forks that are intentionally sustained by manevolent pool owners
1397 2014-04-04 14:28:46 <kallisti> err, malevolent
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1399 2014-04-04 14:28:55 <aynstein> kallisti, we were just discussing this in #bitcoin, you should join in there
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1401 2014-04-04 14:29:27 <kallisti> @aynstein, ok
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1611 2014-04-04 17:34:47 <SoftwareMechanic> I'm kinda confused about multisig. So if I create a new multisig address (via addmultisigaddress in bitciond), and I send to that address, which of the original source address is associated with the resulting bitcoins? Or am I thinking about it incorrectly?
1612 2014-04-04 17:35:35 <SoftwareMechanic> I feel like I'm missing something fundamental
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1617 2014-04-04 17:39:14 <kazcw> Addresses are not "associated with" bitcoins. If you send to a regular address, the person with a key corresponding to that address can spend it; if you send to a multisig destination, people with keys corresponding to that multisig destination can spend it
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1619 2014-04-04 17:39:52 <kazcw> multisig transactions are usually created as p2sh transactions, in which case the multisig destination is a p2sh address
1620 2014-04-04 17:40:11 <SoftwareMechanic> And that transaction is broadcast and put int he blockain right?
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1622 2014-04-04 17:40:43 <kazcw> if a transaction isn't in the blockchain, it's not a transaction. it's a potential transaction.
1623 2014-04-04 17:40:58 <justanot1eruser> It's an unconfirmed transaction
1624 2014-04-04 17:41:06 <justanot1eruser> but it's still a transaction
1625 2014-04-04 17:41:17 <justanot1eruser> I guess at this point it's just words though
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1627 2014-04-04 17:42:05 <SoftwareMechanic> I'm unclear as to what state the transcation is in if, say, only one of the multisig signers has signed
1628 2014-04-04 17:42:13 <kazcw> then you can't broadcast it
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1630 2014-04-04 17:42:18 <SoftwareMechanic> ahh
1631 2014-04-04 17:44:40 <SoftwareMechanic> It's actually surprisingly hard to fully comprehend that there are no account balances really, only transactions. It's opposite of how I'm used to thinking about these things
1632 2014-04-04 17:45:25 <SoftwareMechanic> It's like assembly language for monetary systems
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1641 2014-04-04 17:55:06 <gmaxwell> SoftwareMechanic: I don't know why it's hard to comprehend. When you look at your wallet and see a collection of dimes and nickels and pennies do you assume there is a balance someplace? :)
1642 2014-04-04 17:56:03 <SoftwareMechanic> I think of it as there are X dollars and cents. Not as the sum of transaction since the money was created.
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1644 2014-04-04 17:56:40 <kazcw> that's an abstraction over the set of bills/coins; wallet software applies the same abstraction when it tells you how much btc you have
1645 2014-04-04 17:56:52 <SoftwareMechanic> ya, the wallet software is pretty clear.
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1648 2014-04-04 17:59:02 <SoftwareMechanic> I wonder how close the current state of bitcoin is to the early monetary policy of a country.
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1665 2014-04-04 18:11:52 <SoftwareMechanic> Do you folks think of transactions as having a "source" and "dest", or is it merely inputs and outputs?
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1667 2014-04-04 18:13:45 <gmaxwell> the latter.
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1669 2014-04-04 18:14:25 <SoftwareMechanic> Ya, I think that's my problem
1670 2014-04-04 18:14:32 <gmaxwell> maybe sometimes we'll talk about destinations but the idea only applies in fuzzy ways. What is the "destination" for an output which is one of two pubkeys which are owned by unrelated people?
1671 2014-04-04 18:15:08 <SoftwareMechanic> That's exactly what I've been pondering
1672 2014-04-04 18:17:47 <midnightmagic> or a script which proves someone found a sha1 collision.
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1728 2014-04-04 19:15:10 <Joric> i maybe still don't get very basic things about bitcoin
1729 2014-04-04 19:15:15 <Joric> say those vending machines aren't they 100% vulnerable to double spending
1730 2014-04-04 19:15:48 <kazcw> what vending machines?
1731 2014-04-04 19:16:12 <Joric> i assume double spending is 100% doable isn't it
1732 2014-04-04 19:16:35 <Joric> whatever, vending machines, restaurants etc where they don't wait for the confirmation
1733 2014-04-04 19:16:38 <kazcw> this channel is for development discussion, your question sounds better-suited to #bitcoin
1734 2014-04-04 19:17:59 <Joric> it's basic security what if people will massively double spend their funds every time they buy something
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1747 2014-04-04 19:29:18 <Joric> basically every unconfirmed transaction can be 100% doublespent either with a higher fee or with a faster mining pool, right?
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1749 2014-04-04 19:31:10 <rnicoll> fee isn't a guarantee; it gets you into a more miiner's blocks, but that's just changing the chances
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1751 2014-04-04 19:34:31 <Joric> i'm just wondering why most vendors accept unconfirmed transactions, it's crazy
1752 2014-04-04 19:34:56 <flound1129> no
1753 2014-04-04 19:35:07 <flound1129> it can't be double spent, unless there's a 51% attack
1754 2014-04-04 19:35:13 <flound1129> *successful 51% attack
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1756 2014-04-04 19:35:54 <flound1129> what vendors accept 0 confirm tx's?
1757 2014-04-04 19:36:55 <Joric> well, fastfoods that accept bitcoin
1758 2014-04-04 19:37:28 <Joric> vending machines, etc
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1761 2014-04-04 19:39:25 <SoftwareMechanic> Is it valid to send 0 bitcoins?
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1763 2014-04-04 19:40:16 <Joric> not anymore i guess, it was considered a non standard tx lately
1764 2014-04-04 19:40:34 <SoftwareMechanic> I've got some testing I'm doing and want to sendfrom an address I can't get any bitcoins into yet
1765 2014-04-04 19:40:54 <kazcw> that's what testnet's for
1766 2014-04-04 19:41:11 <Joric> zero outputs were considered non-standard since 0.7.0 afaik
1767 2014-04-04 19:41:43 <kazcw> unless they're op_return <smalldata>
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1777 2014-04-04 19:52:40 <SoftwareMechanic> I'm using testnet, but my test script doesn't support sending to that address yet
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1780 2014-04-04 19:52:56 <SoftwareMechanic> Was trying to send from it to test out one aspect
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1782 2014-04-04 19:54:01 <warren> Luke-Jr: my concern regarding releases not off of master is we tend to do a bad job updating translations
1783 2014-04-04 19:54:46 <SoftwareMechanic> It's a p2sh testing type thing
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1796 2014-04-04 20:09:59 <pizzaman1337> is there any particular reason why a sendmany tx wouldn't show up in "listtransactions '*'" ?
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1820 2014-04-04 20:23:44 <ThomasV> petertodd: ping
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1836 2014-04-04 20:46:01 <Luke-Jr> warren: true, Transifex doesn't handle branching well
1837 2014-04-04 20:46:49 <Luke-Jr> EricLarch: the wallet doesn't need to parse the details, just the human
1838 2014-04-04 20:47:18 <warren> Luke-Jr: if transifex was not updated to 0.999 source strings yet, perhaps we should keep it synced to the 0.9 branch for now
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1840 2014-04-04 20:47:54 <warren> Luke-Jr: my friend runs the transifex company and I'm now very familiar with its operation, I'd like to help.
1841 2014-04-04 20:48:48 <Luke-Jr> warren: it would be nice if it understood branches, and perhaps equivalency of strings
1842 2014-04-04 20:49:08 <Luke-Jr> (eg, "yes, the source strings here are different, but that's just because we fixed a typo")
1843 2014-04-04 20:49:39 <warren> Luke-Jr: the client and server are open source ...
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1889 2014-04-04 21:29:16 <GAit> hello
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1893 2014-04-04 21:33:57 <archrs> since this is -dev i hope this isnt off topic
1894 2014-04-04 21:33:59 <archrs> H2O Coin BOUNTY [ANN] -- django-bitcoin -- 200,000H2O : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=557620
1895 2014-04-04 21:34:47 <Luke-Jr> archrs: this is also #bitcoin- so it is very off-topic
1896 2014-04-04 21:35:07 cagedwisdom has joined
1897 2014-04-04 21:35:23 <archrs> Luke-Jr well seeing as how there's no altcoin-dev i figured id give it a shot :)
1898 2014-04-04 21:36:19 <Luke-Jr> consider that your off-topic warning ;p
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1904 2014-04-04 21:46:47 Ademan has joined
1905 2014-04-04 21:48:51 <Ademan> In order to trustlessly build the UTXO set, a client *must* see every block in the main chain once right? (they just may not have to store them)
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1907 2014-04-04 21:54:25 <gmaxwell> Ademan: Let me rephrase. A trustless way, and probably the only simple trustless way, to build a UTXO set is to inspect each block and update the data.
1908 2014-04-04 21:55:12 <gmaxwell> There may be other ways which achieve computational soundness but require inspecting less data. (well 'may'â actually I am sure there are, but there is a question of them being pratical)
1909 2014-04-04 21:56:51 <Ademan> gmaxwell: is the distinction vs what I said that a bootstrapping client doesn't really know the main chain?
1910 2014-04-04 21:57:43 <gmaxwell> No the distinction is that you said that was the only way to do it. It's not, it's just that the alternatives are very complex.
1911 2014-04-04 22:00:36 <Ademan> hrm, I guess I could imagine starting from the top, and working your way down, stopping when your UTXO set contains no more "dangling" pointers to TXes. Though that's probably abusable in some way
1912 2014-04-04 22:00:57 <gmaxwell> Ademan: that doesn't tell you that its a product of a faitful history.
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1915 2014-04-04 22:03:57 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it's my understanding that a progressive headers first approach is the most sound way to setup a client
1916 2014-04-04 22:04:13 <phantomcircuit> ie block headers -> merkle tree for wallet txs -> rest of block contents
1917 2014-04-04 22:04:46 <phantomcircuit> so the wallet is usable rapidly but progressively removes trust requirements
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1924 2014-04-04 22:09:02 <aceat64> gmaxwell: looks like someone is putting things to trigger virus detection in the main chain now, hopefully you are right about people not running nutty AV
1925 2014-04-04 22:09:51 Neozonz has joined
1926 2014-04-04 22:09:54 <Ademan> has anyone actually had AV complain about their block DB?
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1930 2014-04-04 22:10:37 <aceat64> I've found one report
1931 2014-04-04 22:10:48 <aceat64> user initiated a deletion of the file
1932 2014-04-04 22:11:04 <aceat64> forcing their client to reindex/download the chain
1933 2014-04-04 22:11:17 <aceat64> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=557370.0
1934 2014-04-04 22:11:42 <Ademan> haha
1935 2014-04-04 22:11:48 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, sigh, i guess we should implement some trivial mutation of the raw data files
1936 2014-04-04 22:12:04 <phantomcircuit> im thinking a simple xor of a static value
1937 2014-04-04 22:12:23 <phantomcircuit> actually that is stupid
1938 2014-04-04 22:12:35 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1939 2014-04-04 22:12:56 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: this is the leveldb db actualyl
1940 2014-04-04 22:13:06 <Luke-Jr> I wonder if the AV is just stupid enough to think LDB is a virus
1941 2014-04-04 22:13:18 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1942 2014-04-04 22:13:37 <phantomcircuit> that's hilarious
1943 2014-04-04 22:14:00 <phantomcircuit> sounds like he just got really unlucky and some weird random leveldb structure was tagged as malware
1944 2014-04-04 22:14:12 <aceat64> I ran clamav against ~/.bitcoin/chainstate/*.sst and it shows a few "viruses"
1945 2014-04-04 22:14:12 <gmaxwell> someone should find out what AV that is.
1946 2014-04-04 22:14:12 Coincidental has joined
1947 2014-04-04 22:14:36 <aceat64> http://pastebin.com/0cH6CCLu
1948 2014-04-04 22:14:52 <aceat64> ClamAV 0.98.1/18741/Fri Apr 4 12:34:42 2014
1949 2014-04-04 22:15:17 <Emcy> people have put virus strings into the chain before
1950 2014-04-04 22:15:22 <Emcy> to troll
1951 2014-04-04 22:15:36 <aceat64> yeah, I think the AV companies just need to update their software
1952 2014-04-04 22:15:55 <gmaxwell> aceat64: does it report anything against your block files?
1953 2014-04-04 22:16:09 <Emcy> someone posted a virus string into irc chat before and it caused my AV to murder some of my log files and lock up my irc program
1954 2014-04-04 22:16:12 <Emcy> maximum trolling
1955 2014-04-04 22:17:17 <aceat64> gmaxwell: I'm scanning now, I just did the .sst files to verify the claims in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=554738.0
1956 2014-04-04 22:17:20 <Emcy> some of the common AVs are really bad for false positives though
1957 2014-04-04 22:17:30 <Emcy> random shit that comes up as a heuristic detection
1958 2014-04-04 22:17:34 <phantomcircuit> Emcy, lol
1959 2014-04-04 22:17:42 <phantomcircuit> the heuristic stuff is terrible
1960 2014-04-04 22:17:51 <phantomcircuit> false positives all the time
1961 2014-04-04 22:18:09 <aceat64> looking for short "unique" strings seems like a pretty poor system for virus detection
1962 2014-04-04 22:18:52 <gmaxwell> well the plus side is that these reports in chainstate show up in really old data too.
1963 2014-04-04 22:19:00 <kazcw> it's how animals do it
1964 2014-04-04 22:19:05 Starduster_ is now known as Starduster
1965 2014-04-04 22:19:11 <Emcy> you can use virustotal to check what the 50 most common AVs think about any file up to 128mb i think
1966 2014-04-04 22:19:28 <Emcy> including archives
1967 2014-04-04 22:19:46 <gmaxwell> aceat64: interesting clamav reports nothing on the blockchain files.
1968 2014-04-04 22:20:21 agricocb has joined
1969 2014-04-04 22:20:51 <aceat64> gmaxwell: same here, just the sst files
1970 2014-04-04 22:21:49 <aceat64> I can make the ones that are being flagged available for download if anyone wants to dig through them
1971 2014-04-04 22:21:50 <gmaxwell> nothing on testnet, though it does contain a bunch of AV triggers.
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1976 2014-04-04 22:23:56 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, im guessing the leveldb files just contain enough random nonsense that they happen to also contain signatures
1977 2014-04-04 22:24:58 hearn has quit (Quit: hearn)
1978 2014-04-04 22:25:07 <GAit> phantomcircuit: that seems likely only if signatures are tiny I would guess
1979 2014-04-04 22:25:12 <Emcy> aceat64 upload to virustotal
1980 2014-04-04 22:25:23 <phantomcircuit> signatures are typically super tiny
1981 2014-04-04 22:25:24 <Emcy> i cant remember how big those chainstate files are
1982 2014-04-04 22:25:46 <phantomcircuit> Emcy, it's more that they're constantly changing
1983 2014-04-04 22:26:15 <phantomcircuit> Emcy, currently each one is 2.1MB
1984 2014-04-04 22:26:16 one_zero has joined
1985 2014-04-04 22:26:20 <Emcy> do they look like random data or what
1986 2014-04-04 22:26:44 <phantomcircuit> they're structured but they mostly look like random data
1987 2014-04-04 22:26:55 <Emcy> you could zip about 50 of them and send to VT and see what
1988 2014-04-04 22:27:01 <phantomcircuit> maybe the blockchain files are whitelisted or something?
1989 2014-04-04 22:28:43 tombtc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1990 2014-04-04 22:29:08 <aceat64> I'm not update to date on what the .sst files actually are, but the ones that were flagged as viruses on my system are gone now, are they reclaimed/renamed fairly often?
1991 2014-04-04 22:29:28 <phantomcircuit> nope nvm
1992 2014-04-04 22:29:39 <phantomcircuit> i see exactly the same results as aceat64
1993 2014-04-04 22:29:43 <phantomcircuit> so it's not random
1994 2014-04-04 22:30:18 <phantomcircuit> aceat64, yeah they get consolidated and then the old ones deleted fairly often
1995 2014-04-04 22:31:09 justanot1eruser has joined
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1997 2014-04-04 22:31:33 <petertodd> ThomasV: pong
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2001 2014-04-04 22:38:08 <gmaxwell> here are the bytes that trigger the "Italian.1" warning e4321acdc6f6757ff60af0c20575e852
2002 2014-04-04 22:38:40 <gmaxwell> (yes, its only 16 bytes)
2003 2014-04-04 22:38:53 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ?!
2004 2014-04-04 22:39:56 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: AV are lazy
2005 2014-04-04 22:40:31 milanito has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2006 2014-04-04 22:41:37 Starduster has quit (Quit: gotta go)
2007 2014-04-04 22:41:38 <gmaxwell> okay hexdump seems to have swizzled the byte order, 32e4cd1af6c67f750af6c2f0750552e8 might be better.
2008 2014-04-04 22:42:54 <aceat64> idle speculation: I wonder if anyone has lost a wallet.dat due to overzealous AV
2009 2014-04-04 22:43:31 <gmaxwell> aceat64: well anyone doing anything of value on such a system is sitting on a ticking timebomb.
2010 2014-04-04 22:44:14 <gmaxwell> 2äÃöÃu
2011 2014-04-04 22:44:14 <gmaxwell> öÃðuRè
2012 2014-04-04 22:44:38 <gmaxwell> hm. I guess the fact that it has a line break in it prevents me from spamming your IRC logs with that particular virus definition.
2013 2014-04-04 22:45:06 <midnightmagic> virus checkers are for suckers anyway
2014 2014-04-04 22:45:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: what if you sent it lower level?
2015 2014-04-04 22:45:10 <aceat64> haha, I remember there use to be a string you could send over IRC and anyone with McAfee would disconnect
2016 2014-04-04 22:45:15 rnicoll has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2017 2014-04-04 22:45:37 <aceat64> it thought your IRC client was a virus seeking it's C&C chat
2018 2014-04-04 22:45:53 <kazcw> X5O!P%@AP[4\PZX54(P^)7CC)7}$EICAR-STANDARD-ANTIVIRUS-TEST-FILE!$H+H*
2019 2014-04-04 22:46:09 <gmaxwell> kazcw: testnet is full of that.
2020 2014-04-04 22:46:31 <gmaxwell> ÂÂ
2021 2014-04-04 22:46:31 <gmaxwell> \
2022 2014-04-04 22:46:47 <phantomcircuit> that only triggers a warning in most av
2023 2014-04-04 22:46:54 <phantomcircuit> it doesn't actually trigger any action
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2025 2014-04-04 22:50:05 <aceat64> I wonder if you have to have txindex=1 for it to pick up those signatures
2026 2014-04-04 22:50:37 <aceat64> my node is running that way and I don't have another to test the theory against
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2039 2014-04-04 22:57:41 <gmaxwell> ml><script language="JavaScript">window.open("readme.eml", null, "resizable=no,top=6000,left=6000")</script></ht
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2041 2014-04-04 22:59:41 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol bc.i
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2066 2014-04-04 23:26:55 <airbreather> Thanks guys, really, you're the best. I come back and Windows Defender just yelled at me :-D
2067 2014-04-04 23:28:01 <gmaxwell> hah
2068 2014-04-04 23:28:05 JZavala has joined
2069 2014-04-04 23:28:26 <gmaxwell> because of "HTML.Nimda" ?
2070 2014-04-04 23:28:30 <airbreather> yep
2071 2014-04-04 23:28:36 benkay has joined
2072 2014-04-04 23:28:39 <airbreather> well JS/Nimda, same thing
2073 2014-04-04 23:28:49 <gmaxwell> sorry about that, kinda hard to believe that these things are this stupid.
2074 2014-04-04 23:29:28 <airbreather> no worries, it's proving an important point
2075 2014-04-04 23:30:31 <GAit> that AV are not worth much at all?
2076 2014-04-04 23:32:33 <GAit> oh sorry i may have confused an earlier conversation
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2079 2014-04-04 23:36:22 <GAit> gmaxwell: too busy to see a draft document re: multisig and correlation ?
2080 2014-04-04 23:36:32 maaku is now known as Guest39617
2081 2014-04-04 23:38:29 <gmaxwell> GAit: see? no. Extensive comments? maybe.
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