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   5 2014-04-05 00:06:32 <Happzz> when i remove an address from the Recieve tab in the new bitcoin-qt, what happens to it
   6 2014-04-05 00:06:42 <Happzz> does it stay in the wallet but just removed from the UI?
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  18 2014-04-05 00:21:40 <maaku> Cory gmaxwell: I'm running an exhaustive search to see CScriptNum differs from CBigNum for 32-bit integers
  19 2014-04-05 00:21:57 <maaku> should take a few hours ... otherwise 3965 looks good
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  22 2014-04-05 00:24:25 <Cory> coryfields is probably your man, maaku.
  23 2014-04-05 00:24:47 <coryfields> heh
  24 2014-04-05 00:25:11 <maaku> whoops, sorry auto-tab
  25 2014-04-05 00:25:13 <coryfields> maaku: you mean you're looping em all? I did that at one point
  26 2014-04-05 00:25:44 <maaku> yeah nMinOperandValue to nMaxOperandValue, and all 4-byte vch possibilities
  27 2014-04-05 00:25:45 <coryfields> -int_max..int_max, at least
  28 2014-04-05 00:25:53 <coryfields> maaku: great, thanks
  29 2014-04-05 00:26:17 <kazcw> -int_max? isn't that int_min+1?
  30 2014-04-05 00:26:27 <coryfields> maaku: if you think there's something missing from the tests, be sure to PR or let me know
  31 2014-04-05 00:26:54 <coryfields> kazcw: er, int_min :)
  32 2014-04-05 00:27:22 <maaku> coryfields: that conversion code was the only spot where I thought there might be hidden gotcha edge cases
  33 2014-04-05 00:27:29 <maaku> kazcw: yes, but ones-complement
  34 2014-04-05 00:28:06 <coryfields> maaku: i kept thinking of more cases every time i walked away for a few hours
  35 2014-04-05 00:28:22 <coryfields> so i definitely wouldn't be surprised if there was another still lurking
  36 2014-04-05 00:28:53 <maaku> well the math stuff is pretty straight forward at least, unless there are hidden bugs in openssl you're not implementing
  37 2014-04-05 00:29:07 Gyps has joined
  38 2014-04-05 00:29:33 <maaku> i guess I should loop through 2*nMaxOperandValue to handle overflow, but I see you have some overflow edge cases in there
  39 2014-04-05 00:29:40 <coryfields> maaku: it's not that so much as mirroring the old usage
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  41 2014-04-05 00:30:56 <coryfields> maaku: for example, getint() doesn't do what you'd expect, but its behavior was lifted from the old way
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  44 2014-04-05 00:32:16 <maaku> coryfields: what would you expect getint to do?
  45 2014-04-05 00:32:40 <coryfields> maaku: i'd expect it to be bounded by the operand range or total range
  46 2014-04-05 00:33:12 <maaku> oh yeah the numeric_limits discrepency
  47 2014-04-05 00:33:21 Coincidental has joined
  48 2014-04-05 00:34:12 <Happzz> anyone?
  49 2014-04-05 00:34:28 <maaku> btw, that would be a nice unit test to add
  50 2014-04-05 00:34:38 <maaku> to make sure no one 'fixes' that bug later
  51 2014-04-05 00:34:49 <coryfields> maaku: it's there. 'fix' those bounds and the tests explode :)
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  53 2014-04-05 00:35:08 <maaku> cool
  54 2014-04-05 00:35:21 <coryfields> in that case, the bignum.getint() != scriptnum.getint()
  55 2014-04-05 00:35:39 <coryfields> so the scriptnum_test fails
  56 2014-04-05 00:38:36 <jaakkos> is there a problem with the 0x4c after OP_RETURN here? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=453086.0 - shouldn't 0x4b be the max length and 0x4c would be OP_PUSHDATA1 ? or is https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script#Constants out of date?
  57 2014-04-05 00:38:49 <maaku> coryfields: i'll post to your PR sometime later, after my exhaustive test finishes
  58 2014-04-05 00:39:03 <maaku> right now my laptop is generating more heat than is healthy, so I'll find something else to do :)
  59 2014-04-05 00:39:39 <coryfields> maaku: i really appreciate it.
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  64 2014-04-05 00:48:33 <jiffe98> is the compiled version of bitcoinjs supposed to work the same as the provided source?  Using the examples trying to call console.log(key.getPub().getAddress()), key.getPub() is returning a byte array
  65 2014-04-05 00:48:38 kristov has joined
  66 2014-04-05 00:48:49 <kristov> hello
  67 2014-04-05 00:49:34 <kristov> bitcoin core 0.9 doesn't work with tails linux any longer. would you recommend that tails linux users stick with the pre 0.9 version of bitcoin-qt?
  68 2014-04-05 00:50:28 <gmaxwell> kristov: 'doesn't work' is a little vague.
  69 2014-04-05 00:50:35 <melik> kristov: it doesn't compile?
  70 2014-04-05 00:50:52 <kristov> you can't really compile stuff in tails linux. basic programs like "make" are missing.
  71 2014-04-05 00:51:27 <kristov> sorry 1 sec, i will give a more specific user story...
  72 2014-04-05 00:51:46 <coryfields> i assume it's got an older glibc
  73 2014-04-05 00:52:40 <petcat100> what's the point of tails if you can't compile software on it
  74 2014-04-05 00:52:59 <kristov> it's most intended to run the programs that are pre-included and pre-configured.
  75 2014-04-05 00:53:05 <kristov> sadly, bitcoin core is not included.
  76 2014-04-05 00:53:28 <petcat100> so it's like an appliance?
  77 2014-04-05 00:53:46 <melik> petcat100: like a microwave?
  78 2014-04-05 00:53:59 <petcat100> melik: yeah
  79 2014-04-05 00:54:14 <melik> kristov: can it microwave my food?
  80 2014-04-05 00:54:18 <melik> okay i'll stop joking around.
  81 2014-04-05 00:54:30 <kristov> :-P
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  84 2014-04-05 00:56:58 <olalonde> mornin'
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 103 2014-04-05 01:22:05 <kristov> im back. If I run bitcoin-qt binary 32-bit on tails linux you get: "/lib/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.15' not found" and "/usr/bin/libstdc++.so.6: version `GLIBCXX_3.4.15' not found"
 104 2014-04-05 01:22:10 <kristov> cc gmaxwell
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 107 2014-04-05 01:23:05 <vetch> would you really want to download and verify 20gb of blocks over tor?
 108 2014-04-05 01:23:13 <vetch> (you don't want to)
 109 2014-04-05 01:23:24 <kristov> it's possbile to download them on one computer and move them over.
 110 2014-04-05 01:23:46 ericmuyser has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 111 2014-04-05 01:23:50 bbrian has joined
 112 2014-04-05 01:23:51 <vetch> using a system designed to not retain any data over sessions for your wallet seems fairly foolish.
 113 2014-04-05 01:23:51 <GAit> why not dowloading the entire blockchain from a fast service and then verify what matters via SPV ?
 114 2014-04-05 01:23:53 ericmuyser has joined
 115 2014-04-05 01:24:18 <kristov> all you need to retain is the wallet.dat file, which you can store on a USB drive or whatever.
 116 2014-04-05 01:24:40 <vetch> yeah, and to leave your computer running for however many weeks a sync takes.
 117 2014-04-05 01:24:58 <GAit> kristov: you could use electrum running from the usb drive too
 118 2014-04-05 01:25:00 <kristov> you can even keep the blockchain state on said USB drive and it using -datadir
 119 2014-04-05 01:25:05 <GAit> true
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 121 2014-04-05 01:25:16 <kristov> GAit: electrum is unfortunately equally fail on Tails Linux :(
 122 2014-04-05 01:25:23 <GAit> but i wouldn't do the initial sync on tor
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 124 2014-04-05 01:25:56 <vetch> kristov: make a virtualenv then. it's just python, you can pack all the dependencies in a folder.
 125 2014-04-05 01:26:03 <GAit> kristov: i got electrum to work on tails, you have to setup the root password first and then install packages
 126 2014-04-05 01:26:05 tyn has quit (Client Quit)
 127 2014-04-05 01:26:11 <GAit> or get electrum from github
 128 2014-04-05 01:26:25 <vetch> virtualenv.
 129 2014-04-05 01:26:28 melik has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 130 2014-04-05 01:26:29 <GAit> yeah virtualenv
 131 2014-04-05 01:26:32 <kristov> GAit: orly?
 132 2014-04-05 01:26:49 <vetch> ya rly
 133 2014-04-05 01:26:52 <GAit> kristov: you don't need root, just if you want to install apt packages
 134 2014-04-05 01:26:54 <kristov> what's "virtualenv"
 135 2014-04-05 01:26:56 sbrossie has joined
 136 2014-04-05 01:27:21 <vetch> virtual environments for Python. a folder containing the python binary and everything else needed, including libraries.
 137 2014-04-05 01:27:27 pfallenop has joined
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 139 2014-04-05 01:28:25 <GAit> does electrum connect to more than one electrum server at the time?
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 144 2014-04-05 01:29:01 <kristov> GAit: so how do I get bitcoin-qt4 and pip on tails?
 145 2014-04-05 01:29:12 <vetch> GAit: yes.
 146 2014-04-05 01:29:27 <vetch> pip is part of the virtual environment.
 147 2014-04-05 01:29:38 <GAit> vetch: at the same time or serially until it finds one that works
 148 2014-04-05 01:30:20 <vetch> GAit: in parallel with a main server for data requests. basically only talks to the other servers to make sure the main server isn't falling behind.
 149 2014-04-05 01:30:24 phantomspark has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 150 2014-04-05 01:30:40 <GAit> makes sense, or that the main server is talking bullshit
 151 2014-04-05 01:31:04 <vetch> zero knowledge proofs.
 152 2014-04-05 01:31:28 <vetch> the main server can withhold information, but that's a risk in any spv system.
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 154 2014-04-05 01:32:59 <GAit> vetch: how would this compare to multibit in your opinion?
 155 2014-04-05 01:34:40 <vetch> GAit: same threat model, only multibit uses random peers in the network rather than dedicated servers. multibit can (but doesn't) add garbage to their bloom filters so it could be a lot more private than electrum if it wanted. an electrum wallet knows the size and contents of a clients wallet exactly.
 156 2014-04-05 01:35:19 <GAit> yeah but you could ask different servers for different keys
 157 2014-04-05 01:35:49 <GAit> and verify all via SPV
 158 2014-04-05 01:36:06 <kristov> vetch: where should I install virtualenv to?
 159 2014-04-05 01:36:14 <GAit> kristov: usb
 160 2014-04-05 01:36:17 <vetch> the electrum server only needs to know the master public ket of the electrum client wallet rather than requesting individual addresses. I imagine this is done to save on bandwidth.
 161 2014-04-05 01:36:38 <GAit> i thought it could do both
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 163 2014-04-05 01:37:33 benkay has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 164 2014-04-05 01:37:36 <vetch> GAit: there's also very few electrum servers really. you could correlate between servers at different periods to get a larger picture of their wallet. you can't protect against electrum servers having knowledge of the client in their current model.
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 168 2014-04-05 01:44:19 <kristov> any objections to people using bitcoin-qt 0.8.6? I know it doesn't have the same tx malleability protection, but I didn't see any other security -related changes in the 0.9 changelog
 169 2014-04-05 01:45:58 <Luke-Jr> kristov: at least upgrade to 0.8.7
 170 2014-04-05 01:46:22 <kristov> Luke-Jr: I don't see it here
 171 2014-04-05 01:46:30 <kristov> pastefail
 172 2014-04-05 01:46:40 <kristov> https://bitcoin.org/bin/
 173 2014-04-05 01:46:46 <gmaxwell> kristov: your issue is fixed and testing is requested: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3914
 174 2014-04-05 01:47:06 <Luke-Jr> kristov: because it's not released due to lack of testing (expected to never get enough, since everyone should be using 0.9.0)
 175 2014-04-05 01:47:07 GhostJump has joined
 176 2014-04-05 01:47:21 <gmaxwell> kristov: if you follow the pulltester links you can find binaries.
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 178 2014-04-05 01:48:00 <kristov> thank you!
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 183 2014-04-05 01:53:03 <kristov> Is running bitcoin-cli.static supposed to launch a GUI? it just printed out the command line options for me instead
 184 2014-04-05 01:55:44 <vetch> no, that's just the RPC client
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 240 2014-04-05 03:08:29 <gmaxwell> Anyone know who this person is? https://github.com/oleksii-mdr
 241 2014-04-05 03:09:48 setkeh has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 242 2014-04-05 03:12:47 <gmaxwell> or https://github.com/jdtaylor/ ?
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 250 2014-04-05 03:18:14 <vetch> gmaxwell: what's the reason for asking?
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 254 2014-04-05 03:22:18 <gmaxwell> I suspect they are either up to good, or no good.
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 260 2014-04-05 03:29:37 <phrackage> Before I go making up my own DB - is there any online service or API that allows me to get the fiat equivalent of historical blockchain transactions (for a couple of popular exchanges)?
 261 2014-04-05 03:30:23 pfallenop has joined
 262 2014-04-05 03:31:11 <uiop> phrackage: do you mean "the blockchain" or do you mean "historical trades on certain exchanges" ?
 263 2014-04-05 03:31:54 <phrackage> i mean "the blockchain"
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 267 2014-04-05 03:33:15 <uiop> you can get the data either from bitcoind (through various means, i'm not sure the current "best" way) or you could query blockchain.info via their json api (depending on how data you're after)
 268 2014-04-05 03:33:42 tiago has joined
 269 2014-04-05 03:35:10 <gmaxwell> phrackage: this is offtopic for this channel, you would have done better to just ask in #bitcoin but I am not aware of any such thing.
 270 2014-04-05 03:35:33 <gmaxwell> uiop: and no, he's asking for "fiat equivalent" (whatever precisely that means)
 271 2014-04-05 03:35:38 <phrackage> ok thanks
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 273 2014-04-05 03:37:09 <vetch> gmaxwell: what sort of no good?
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 276 2014-04-05 03:40:48 <vetch> gmaxwell: I see they both have branches of bitcoin in their accounts but the one extra commit seems harmless.
 277 2014-04-05 03:42:02 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: IMO it means "translating bitcoin values to USD/etc at the time of the trade"
 278 2014-04-05 03:43:01 <Luke-Jr> which would be not a bad idea
 279 2014-04-05 03:43:07 <warren> wumpus: can I help with the bitcoin transifex stuff?
 280 2014-04-05 03:43:21 <Luke-Jr> when asked how many bitcoins I've ever traded, it's kinda.. sounds like a lot to n00bs lol
 281 2014-04-05 03:43:48 <vetch> gmaxwell: oh wait, there's a lot more than that. GitHub has a confusing interface.
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 284 2014-04-05 03:44:59 <Luke-Jr> warren: what do you need?
 285 2014-04-05 03:45:53 <warren> Luke-Jr: I'd like to help maintain it, to keep the source in sync more often and engage the translators
 286 2014-04-05 03:46:02 <warren> Luke-Jr: including a mailing list for the translators
 287 2014-04-05 03:46:19 <Luke-Jr> warren: what's stopping you? :p
 288 2014-04-05 03:46:48 <warren> Luke-Jr: lack of maintainer permission, which I see you have
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 292 2014-04-05 03:48:17 <Luke-Jr> warren: is there anything specific I can do to help, or you just want maintainer permission to do it directly? (in which case, I should check with tcatm)
 293 2014-04-05 03:49:12 <warren> Luke-Jr: I'd like maintainer permission to do it directly, and need to ask everyone if they're OK with a certain approach to workaround the problem where they don't handle branches.
 294 2014-04-05 03:50:00 <warren> Of course I wouldn't change anything without consensus
 295 2014-04-05 03:50:09 <Luke-Jr> elaborate? :p
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 297 2014-04-05 03:50:27 <Luke-Jr> if it's long, maybe the dev ML should get an overview of the plan
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 299 2014-04-05 03:50:56 <warren> Luke-Jr: basically, in the long period of time after 0.8.x branched from master it was impossible for people to get fixed translations into 0.8 releases.  they were refused in PR's, and changes to transifex would not be in the next several 0.8 releases.
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 301 2014-04-05 03:52:30 <Luke-Jr> warren: right. I meant how to solve it
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 354 2014-04-05 05:05:31 <olalonde> what are the rev*.dat files for in blocks/?
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 367 2014-04-05 05:23:40 <maaku> olalonde: undo blocks
 368 2014-04-05 05:24:07 <maaku> contains the information necessary to step backwards when performing a reorg
 369 2014-04-05 05:26:12 <msvb-lab> Morning folks.
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 375 2014-04-05 05:32:29 <olalonde> maaku: I see. I thought reorgs just involved changing the pointer to the tip of the longest branch and rescanning from the common parent of last chain and new chain
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 378 2014-04-05 05:33:57 <olalonde> well that's my high level understanding.. I guess bitcoind uses this scheme for a good reason
 379 2014-04-05 05:34:27 <olalonde> rescanning until*
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 382 2014-04-05 05:37:39 <kazcw> The node keeps track of the utxo set (because that's what you need to verify transactions). Changing the tip of the active chain alters the utxo set.
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 385 2014-04-05 05:40:50 <olalonde> ah ok makes sense. so the rev files kind of track which utxos each blocks add/remove from the set so you can run the operation backwards until you reach the common block to both chains
 386 2014-04-05 05:41:33 <olalonde> it's a kind of optimization so you don't have to rescan the whole chain right?
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 394 2014-04-05 05:50:39 <vetch> olalonde: basically. the rev files are just undo instructions so you can back out of a chain and down an alternate one.
 395 2014-04-05 05:50:58 <olalonde> makes sense
 396 2014-04-05 05:51:07 <vetch> otherwise you would have to, as you say, rebuild from zero again.
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 425 2014-04-05 06:52:55 <fanquake> ;;blocks
 426 2014-04-05 06:52:56 <gribble> 294312
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 502 2014-04-05 09:12:36 <wumpus> !seen warren
 503 2014-04-05 09:12:37 <gribble> warren was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 5 hours, 14 minutes, and 26 seconds ago: <warren> Luke-Jr: I'll explain this later, I'm tired.
 504 2014-04-05 09:12:41 <askew> wumpus: warren(~warren@fedora/wombat/warren) was on #bitcoin-dev 19 minutes 10 seconds ago.
 505 2014-04-05 09:13:08 <Luke-Jr> who invited askew? O.o
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 531 2014-04-05 09:54:13 <Happzz> technical question
 532 2014-04-05 09:54:36 <Happzz> if i send 1 bitcoin to some address, and use a very low fee that will take a few days to confirm, then broadcast that
 533 2014-04-05 09:54:51 <Happzz> and 5 minutes later make another transaction, spending the same bitcoin, and send it to another address
 534 2014-04-05 09:54:55 <Happzz> but this time use a decent fee
 535 2014-04-05 09:55:10 <Happzz> would nodes reject the later tx, or would they take it and confirm it faster, because of the okay fee?
 536 2014-04-05 09:55:27 <Apocalyptic> depends if the miner implements CPFP
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 538 2014-04-05 09:56:15 <airbreather> Happzz: really, it depends on the node... I think the Satoshi client wouldn't relay the later one unless it hasn't already seen the earlier one, right?
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 541 2014-04-05 09:57:02 <Happzz> airbreather that's basically my question
 542 2014-04-05 09:57:17 <airbreather> (the "right?" was aimed at other folks to confirm my understanding)
 543 2014-04-05 09:57:47 <Apocalyptic> Happzz, no that's not your question
 544 2014-04-05 09:57:56 <Apocalyptic> what airbreather states is obvious
 545 2014-04-05 09:58:04 <Happzz> i can rephrase the question: if you send some bitcoins with an insufficient fee and then send them AGAIN, but with a sufficient fee - would the later tx "save" the coins from being lost due to never being confirmed?
 546 2014-04-05 09:58:06 <Apocalyptic> you're asking about whether it will confirm faster or not
 547 2014-04-05 09:58:42 <Apocalyptic> Happzz, I answered
 548 2014-04-05 09:58:47 <Apocalyptic> <Apocalyptic> depends if the miner implements CPFP
 549 2014-04-05 09:58:54 matt____ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 550 2014-04-05 09:59:02 <Apocalyptic> CPFP stands for child pays for parent
 551 2014-04-05 09:59:29 <Apocalyptic> aka child tx pays for parent tx
 552 2014-04-05 09:59:29 <Happzz> Apocalyptic and if you convert that to technical terms - would the later tx be relayed and thus mined and thus confirmed _at all_ (if it will be relayed, mined and confirmed then it all should happen faster)
 553 2014-04-05 09:59:38 <Happzz> uhm
 554 2014-04-05 09:59:39 <Happzz> okay
 555 2014-04-05 09:59:42 <Apocalyptic> child tx is what you call the later tx
 556 2014-04-05 09:59:57 <Happzz> oh, so i lost you here.
 557 2014-04-05 10:00:00 <Happzz> can you explain that part?
 558 2014-04-05 10:00:14 <Apocalyptic> " would the later tx be relayed and thus mined"
 559 2014-04-05 10:00:29 <Apocalyptic> you know that a tx being relayed is no way linked to it being mined ?
 560 2014-04-05 10:00:55 <Apocalyptic> these two events are not correlated in any way
 561 2014-04-05 10:01:06 <airbreather> I think technically, CPFP only helps in the situation where you use the unconfirmed coins as input to another transaction with a fee that covers both the new transaction and the parent transaction
 562 2014-04-05 10:01:18 <Apocalyptic> that's right
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 564 2014-04-05 10:01:27 <Happzz> Apocalyptic i know, but if a miner gets both of them, it'll most likely deal with the better fee one
 565 2014-04-05 10:01:29 <Apocalyptic> i think that's his case
 566 2014-04-05 10:01:44 <Happzz> no, that's NOT the case
 567 2014-04-05 10:01:46 <airbreather> It looks like Happzz is asking about using a double-spend to replace a "doomed" transaction with one that has a chance of happening
 568 2014-04-05 10:01:49 <Happzz> i'm talking about double spending
 569 2014-04-05 10:01:53 <Apocalyptic> Happzz, so your later tx is not spending the coins from the unconfirmed tx but it's a double spend ?
 570 2014-04-05 10:02:23 <Apocalyptic> then the later would not be relayed at all while it's in the mempool, fee is irrelevant
 571 2014-04-05 10:02:26 <Happzz> yes. a double spend. i'm asking if a double-spend (with a better fee at the later tx) will "save" the earlier one
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 573 2014-04-05 10:03:35 <airbreather> I think the Satoshi client will drop the "doomed" transaction from the mempool after some period of time
 574 2014-04-05 10:03:56 <Apocalyptic> according to sipa only if it's restarted
 575 2014-04-05 10:04:01 <airbreather> heh
 576 2014-04-05 10:04:25 <Apocalyptic> it will never drop on its own
 577 2014-04-05 10:04:35 <airbreather> The more nodes that reject the transaction, the longer it'll take for the new transaction to propagate to a miner
 578 2014-04-05 10:05:10 <airbreather> Worst-case, I think you can submit the raw transaction directly to Eligius, which has been helpful in the past, via eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/pushtxn.php
 579 2014-04-05 10:06:41 <Apocalyptic> if it's in the eligius's mempool that won't help
 580 2014-04-05 10:07:47 <airbreather> In any case, to answer the original question, it's possible but frustrating
 581 2014-04-05 10:08:18 <Apocalyptic> I don't get what he means by "save" the coins
 582 2014-04-05 10:08:23 <Apocalyptic> there is nothing to be saved really
 583 2014-04-05 10:08:42 <airbreather> try not to get into that situation -- if you can spend one of the outputs from the original transaction, then you can take advantage of CPFP
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 601 2014-04-05 10:56:40 <vetch> Happzz: the second would be a double spend and rejected by the nodes you sent the first to, no matter the fee.
 602 2014-04-05 10:58:51 <Luke-Jr> vetch: assuming current node implementations
 603 2014-04-05 11:00:18 <vetch> Luke-Jr: if we don't then almost any question can have a silly answer. I take your point though, this is something liable to change soon.
 604 2014-04-05 11:03:21 <Apocalyptic> was there some actual meaningfull improvement in memory management since "version" : 80600 ?
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 634 2014-04-05 11:54:39 <archrs> any web devs on?
 635 2014-04-05 11:54:41 <archrs> BOUNTY [ANN] --  django-bitcoin -- 200,000H2O : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=557620
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 639 2014-04-05 11:56:07 <vetch> archrs: that's completely off topic. not even bitcoin.
 640 2014-04-05 11:56:32 <archrs> it is bitcoin
 641 2014-04-05 11:56:39 <archrs> you need to convert it from btc to something else :)
 642 2014-04-05 11:56:47 <speed-> why do you need to convert it?
 643 2014-04-05 11:56:57 <speed-> it's same RPC, just change BITCOIND_CONNECTION_STRING = "http://bitcoinuser:password@localhost:8332"
 644 2014-04-05 11:56:57 <archrs> there are some nuances
 645 2014-04-05 11:57:13 <vetch> archrs: no, this channel is about bitcoin. your post is not.
 646 2014-04-05 11:57:15 <archrs> also branding and i'd like the newest patches integrated
 647 2014-04-05 11:57:39 <speed-> and yea #h2o-dev probably hehe :p
 648 2014-04-05 11:58:04 <archrs> thx for the heads up tho speed-
 649 2014-04-05 11:58:08 <s7r> so to prove i control a regular address, one sig address, i can just sign a message / random string with the privkey for that address and that's it. what about a multisig address 3/3 ? if i have one pubkey (one signature right) in that address, can I prove in any way i control or partially control that multisig address?
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 651 2014-04-05 11:59:01 <vetch> s7r: signing a random string is ill advised. a "proof" can be re used elsewhere. you need to make it clear in the message what you are signing to prove.
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 654 2014-04-05 12:01:23 <s7r> vetch but a 3/3 multisig address - i have one pubkey there just one . i can sign and what will this prove? that i owe it totally or partially
 655 2014-04-05 12:01:31 <s7r> ca anyone see i have just 1 signature in there and it's a 3/3 address?
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 657 2014-04-05 12:02:44 <vetch> if you have the script public then sure, that proves you are in control of a portion of thee multisig.
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 662 2014-04-05 12:03:44 <vetch> the multisig script can just be verified to contain that particular address, and that the script also matches the encoded p2sh address.
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 664 2014-04-05 12:04:27 <vetch> just don't sign vague messages.
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 666 2014-04-05 12:05:10 <s7r> hmmm .. so i have an address. that address is 1 part of a 3/3 multisig address. i sign a message with that 1 address. the receipient of that signed message is able to verify and confirm that i control partyally (1 out of 3) signatures i that multisig address?
 667 2014-04-05 12:05:54 <vetch> only if the script for the multisig is public too. without the script there's no way of knowing what a particular p2sh address is doing.
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 677 2014-04-05 12:09:54 <s7r> vetch and that script of multisig.. is it any danger to make it public?
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 679 2014-04-05 12:10:59 <vetch> it will become public when a spend is made from the address anyway. it is immutable and just describes the conditions that must be met to spend.
 680 2014-04-05 12:12:27 <s7r> vetch so there is no danger or security flaw to make it public before the spend takes place
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 683 2014-04-05 12:13:20 <vetch> no more than with any other type of spend. in a normal spend the script is public as soon as funds are sent to the address. with p2sh the script is hidden and only made public by a spend from the address.
 684 2014-04-05 12:13:51 <vetch> it means you can have a p2sh address with many spends to it (say a donation address) without every single transaction having to contain the massive script.
 685 2014-04-05 12:14:21 <vetch> p2sh addresses contain multiple large public keys and are naturally quite large as a result.
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 687 2014-04-05 12:19:39 <s7r> wait .. p2sh is different than multisig?
 688 2014-04-05 12:20:08 <vetch> p2sh is used for multisig.
 689 2014-04-05 12:22:13 <s7r> so a 3/3 multisig address == p2sh address? because i am getting little confused
 690 2014-04-05 12:22:32 <GAit> there's two kinds of multisig, one getting slowly deprecated and not accepted by some miners and P2SH
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 692 2014-04-05 12:23:57 <s7r> GAit so what is the difference
 693 2014-04-05 12:24:06 <s7r> ?
 694 2014-04-05 12:25:18 <hearn> er
 695 2014-04-05 12:25:24 <hearn> sigh
 696 2014-04-05 12:25:43 <hearn> it’s not being “slowly deprecated"
 697 2014-04-05 12:25:46 <hearn> but whatever
 698 2014-04-05 12:26:04 <s7r> ok - p2sh how you generate it any different than a normal multisig?
 699 2014-04-05 12:26:04 <GAit> hearn: sorry maybe I got that wrong, I remember someone suggesting it
 700 2014-04-05 12:26:33 <hearn> there are some people who think p2sh is the bees knees and should be used for everything. that is not a globally held view
 701 2014-04-05 12:26:50 <GAit> hearn: Luke-Jr said gradually filtered by miners https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/360#issuecomment-38977911
 702 2014-04-05 12:27:25 <GAit> so i didn't realize it wasn't a global held thing
 703 2014-04-05 12:27:37 <hearn> luke has a long history of using his (former) pool to try and filter things he doesn’t like
 704 2014-04-05 12:28:08 <GAit> i'll be more carefull repeating things without triple checking them :)
 705 2014-04-05 12:29:27 <s7r> https://github.com/OutCast3k/bitcoin-multisig/
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 707 2014-04-05 12:29:46 <s7r> this script here generates deperecated multisig addresses or p2sh safe ones?
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 710 2014-04-05 12:30:48 <wumpus> GAit: well, you weren't wrong, people just disagree on this; the problem with the non-p2sh multisig is that it can be misused to store larger amounts of data in an output
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 715 2014-04-05 12:34:25 <vetch> wumpus: ideally wouldn't we want to have people proving that the hashes they submit are indeed hashes?
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 718 2014-04-05 12:35:34 <GAit> out of band proof?
 719 2014-04-05 12:36:04 <wumpus> vetch: sure, ideally, but in the case of p2sh it's a short hash (just as long as the normal pubkey hash) so it's never problematic
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 723 2014-04-05 13:01:09 <hearn> it’s a rather arbitrary line in the sand
 724 2014-04-05 13:01:24 <hearn> “160 bits is OK, but 256 bits is bad”
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 729 2014-04-05 13:09:46 <dexX7> wumpus: actually p2sh is cheaper to store data at some point, i think.. at least in the case where you include one valid pubkey in each multisig output for redemption purposes
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 736 2014-04-05 13:25:56 <wumpus> dexX7: that's an additional advantage indeed, the data doesn't end up in the UTXO set but just in the input
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 739 2014-04-05 13:29:22 <wumpus> hearn: right, everyone agrees that limits are needed, but where to place those limits is pretty much arbitrary
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 741 2014-04-05 13:30:51 <dexX7> that too, but this is what i meant: p2sh: 1/15 (stores up to 14 data packs while redeemable), standard: 1/3 (stores only two data packs while redeemable - per output though, but the ratio is much worse)
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 811 2014-04-05 15:11:34 <petertodd> wumpus, vetch: I need to write it up fully for the -dev list, but it appears that the P2SH^2 method of proving hashes are indeed hashes rather perversely makes it cheaper to do proof-of-publication of arbitrary data, and the proof requires an unspendable utxo to be made each time
 812 2014-04-05 15:12:05 <petertodd> wumpus, vetch: (well, cheaper in scenarios where publishing via scriptSig has been made expensive)
 813 2014-04-05 15:13:18 <petertodd> wumpus, vetch: the problem is that proof-of-publication is distinct from storage, easiest to see in the case of announce/commit sacrifices where there's no need to store the data at al
 814 2014-04-05 15:20:05 <vetch> petertodd: it would just be nicer overall if people didn't treat the blockchain as their own personal data storage.
 815 2014-04-05 15:20:57 <petertodd> vetch: meh, it's a useful and highly secure proof-of-publication service that can be used as a building block for many other things
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 817 2014-04-05 15:23:32 <vetch> petertodd: if everybody believed that we would have an even more bloated, heavy blockchain than we already do. that sort of thinking only works when there's a small number of services freeloading.
 818 2014-04-05 15:24:55 <vetch> the fact that you can't distinguish a hash from any other 256 bit integer means that it's fairly impossible to stop people including some form of arbitrary data, but all the same.
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 820 2014-04-05 15:25:42 <sipa> gmaxwell has a scheme that actually does prevent using it for data storage (requiring you to have a preimage for the hash being stored)
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 828 2014-04-05 15:30:50 <vetch> sipa: couldn't you just store data in the preimage then?
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 831 2014-04-05 15:35:31 <petertodd> sipa: see above - P2SH^2 appears to make the problem worse in some circumstances, not better. (P2SH^2.0 OTOH is ok)
 832 2014-04-05 15:35:51 <petertodd> vetch: you can't store the data, but you can prove it was published
 833 2014-04-05 15:38:54 <vetch> I don't quite understand how the preimage bit works (or doesn't), I'll have to go read the mailing list.
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 848 2014-04-05 15:55:26 <uiop> petertodd: (your comment gave me a thought, this could be not possible, i don't know specifics of p2sh-scripty-hash-test), but
 849 2014-04-05 15:55:41 <disident> Hello did someone tried Peatio the ruby trading system ?
 850 2014-04-05 15:55:59 <disident> Im looking for feedbacks
 851 2014-04-05 15:56:01 <uiop> petertodd: if you encoded information as btc script code, would this defeat the test?
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 853 2014-04-05 15:56:47 <uiop> petertodd: (in the general case of *any* encoding scheme)
 854 2014-04-05 15:57:43 <uiop> like {0,1}:={PUSH,POP}, then proceed to PUSH;POP;POP;... your way in binary or something
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 860 2014-04-05 16:01:45 <uiop> oh, i brought this up before, and got pointed to p2sh^2 then too (grepping scrollback)
 861 2014-04-05 16:03:36 <jiffe98> anyone have an idea why the last two lines of this code output something different everytime I run it? http://nsab.us/public/sign.py
 862 2014-04-05 16:05:23 <vetch> jiffe98: without even looking at it, EC signatures contain a random number and will be different every time you sign.
 863 2014-04-05 16:05:44 <uiop> jiffe98: start doing binary search (wrt commenting out lines) until you find the function call responsible for bringing the randgen in (or worse, the one that's buggy and responsible for reading garbage from mem)
 864 2014-04-05 16:06:25 <uiop> i guess just "grep -i sign" then ;)
 865 2014-04-05 16:07:41 <jiffe98> vetch gotcha that makes sense
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 880 2014-04-05 16:16:17 <uiop> gah, whenever i read scrollback in #bitcoin-dev it sends me on a 20+ minute trip down some rabbit hole of googlemachine-assisted grokkage :)
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 883 2014-04-05 16:17:07 <maaku> coryfields: pass with flying colors!
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 902 2014-04-05 16:35:15 <amiller> am i right that there's no command line option to increase the number of outbound connections (default:8) ?
 903 2014-04-05 16:35:31 <amiller> -maxconnections=<n>  is for the maximum number of total outbound+inbound connections
 904 2014-04-05 16:35:39 <Apocalyptic> you're right
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 916 2014-04-05 16:43:24 <skinnkavaj> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=554738.0
 917 2014-04-05 16:43:33 <skinnkavaj> : [SECURITY] DoS Vulnerability
 918 2014-04-05 16:45:00 <lianj> not new
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 931 2014-04-05 16:51:47 <BCB> what are blk0001[2][3].dat in the .bitcoin folder and how to they differ from the blk*.dat file in .bitcoin/blocks files
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 937 2014-04-05 16:58:39 <vetch> BCB: the ones in the outer folder are duplicate blocks in the older bdb format.
 938 2014-04-05 16:59:00 <BCB> vetch for backward compatability?
 939 2014-04-05 16:59:15 <vetch> well, they're the ones associated with the indexes in the bdb format.
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 943 2014-04-05 16:59:41 <BCB> vetch they all start with the genesis block
 944 2014-04-05 17:00:18 <vetch> just left there during the transition I believe. double check with someone else, but you should be able to delete the outer block files and be fine.
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 946 2014-04-05 17:00:53 <BCB> vetch ok. Thanks!
 947 2014-04-05 17:01:30 <vetch> (to correct myself further, the block files have no format and are just concatenated blocks, the indexes are either in leveldb format or bdb depending which side of 0.8 you are on)
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 965 2014-04-05 17:15:34 <BCB> vetch 0.9
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 969 2014-04-05 17:18:20 <GAit> vetch: what do you think about the 'white paper' linked from https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=521988.msg6084197#msg6084197
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 975 2014-04-05 17:20:53 <vetch> GAit: I'm not really an authority on anything really. it's yet another company with a name taken from the ecosystem though, which is irritating.
 976 2014-04-05 17:22:12 <GAit> vetch: I've actually discussed the concept with Jan Vornberger whom if i'm not wrong has coined the term and he appriciated the different way of applying the concept
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 978 2014-04-05 17:23:11 <GAit> vetch: discalimer, i'm the founder of that yet other company
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 980 2014-04-05 17:24:32 <vetch> I suppose in a way they assure that the address isn't malicious like the other use of the term "green address", but it's a little like coinbase.com and the coinbase transaction names getting muddled up
 981 2014-04-05 17:24:52 Elglobo has joined
 982 2014-04-05 17:25:01 <GAit> or even better blockchain :)
 983 2014-04-05 17:25:22 <vetch> that too.
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 986 2014-04-05 17:26:02 <GAit> a tradition now
 987 2014-04-05 17:26:54 <vetch> unfortunate.
 988 2014-04-05 17:27:09 <vetch> my only real opinion is something mentioned in that document, in that people using the 2FA system on a device (say a phone) that already has the 2FA keys on it completely nullifies the security.
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 990 2014-04-05 17:27:45 <GAit> vetch: imagine a device where the radio part and the app parts can't access each other
 991 2014-04-05 17:28:01 <vetch> Gmail has a similar problem, where people have their 2FA backup phone number set to the exact phone they are logging in on.
 992 2014-04-05 17:28:05 <GAit> the 2fa with voice robot call could possibly work
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 994 2014-04-05 17:28:44 <GAit> vetch: that's why we want to support as many secure 2FA as there are and suggest to users to use a couple
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 996 2014-04-05 17:29:28 <vetch> GAit: I'd rather just see companies giving out free hardware tokens. they surely cost a few cents each from the Chinese company that makes them, and ensures that nobody can ever get to them.
 997 2014-04-05 17:30:05 <vetch> RSA have been doing that as long as I can remember.
 998 2014-04-05 17:30:11 <GAit> hw wallets? that's going to be supported quite soon i think or you talk about 2fa hw ?
 999 2014-04-05 17:30:17 <GAit> yeah fair enough
1000 2014-04-05 17:30:23 <vetch> hardware 2FA specifically
1001 2014-04-05 17:30:24 <GAit> is that different from google 2fa though?
1002 2014-04-05 17:30:42 <GAit> it's offline too
1003 2014-04-05 17:30:54 <GAit> and anonymous
1004 2014-04-05 17:31:14 <vetch> different technical method of making the keys I think, same outcome. there's hardware tokens that can manage the google 2fa.
1005 2014-04-05 17:31:16 <GAit> the problem with these 2FA is that they can't contain tx information or 2Fa change information (when you enable disable things)
1006 2014-04-05 17:31:38 <GAit> so some MITM attacks are possible when your device is compromised
1007 2014-04-05 17:31:55 <vetch> naturally something like the Trezor is preferable to 2fa, but it's more optimal than not having it at all.
1008 2014-04-05 17:32:12 <GAit> you can have both :)
1009 2014-04-05 17:33:09 <vetch> inconvenient though. the Trezor itself is already super inconvenient to use by the looks of things.
1010 2014-04-05 17:33:47 <vetch> the password entry thing is sort of understandable, but clunky as all hell from the users perspective.
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1012 2014-04-05 17:34:19 <GAit> vetch: our android client supports nfc login + 2fa
1013 2014-04-05 17:34:28 <GAit> or qr code login
1014 2014-04-05 17:34:30 <GAit> or pin login
1015 2014-04-05 17:36:36 <vetch> GAit: it's all various levels of convenience over security. you really couldn't do any worse than blockchain.infos "2FA". if you save even one persons coins from being whisked away from them, kudos.
1016 2014-04-05 17:37:09 <vetch> GAit: that last comment was meant to be encouraging rather than not. came out a little weird.
1017 2014-04-05 17:37:16 <GAit> yeah our first target is avoiding people losing coins due to malware on their device
1018 2014-04-05 17:37:25 <GAit> desktop device mostly
1019 2014-04-05 17:37:49 <GAit> but android has been a bit of a target. It is trivial to take the keys from meory
1020 2014-04-05 17:37:52 <GAit> memory*
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1024 2014-04-05 17:41:49 <vetch> people also like piracy which is a great source of malware.
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1026 2014-04-05 17:43:17 <GAit> vetch: yeah or porn
1027 2014-04-05 17:43:31 <GAit> or some alts/miners
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1034 2014-04-05 17:47:51 <vetch> we can probably say most users have some form of malware, just not necessarily tailored to steal from bitcoin. security though obscurity at its finest
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1036 2014-04-05 17:48:49 <bdak> i pay for phpbb style help. i messed up my style now i need to fix it :) /msg me
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1040 2014-04-05 17:58:31 <GAit> vetch: yeah and education only works so much but they'll have to become much more careful if money is at risk
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1048 2014-04-05 18:03:38 <vetch> GAit: hardware devices take careful out as an iasue. I know they wont be common place for the time being though.
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1069 2014-04-05 18:36:02 <BCB> what message does bitcoind receive when a block is published?
1070 2014-04-05 18:37:54 <sipa> 'block' ?
1071 2014-04-05 18:37:59 <sipa> well, 'inv' really
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1122 2014-04-05 19:38:43 <melvster> Are the initial nbits 0x1d00ffff or do i have the endianness wrong, or does it not matter?
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1125 2014-04-05 19:40:30 <melvster> ah I think it should be 0xffff001d
1126 2014-04-05 19:40:48 <sipa> well, you mean that as a number or as a byte string?
1127 2014-04-05 19:41:16 <sipa> the bytes are 0xff 0xff 0x00 0x1d
1128 2014-04-05 19:41:35 <sipa> the represented number is 0x1d00ffff
1129 2014-04-05 19:41:48 <melvster> sipa: as a number
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1131 2014-04-05 19:42:17 <melvster> sipa but the version is 0x02000000
1132 2014-04-05 19:42:27 <melvster> so I think i should reverse it
1133 2014-04-05 19:42:49 * melvster 's head is starting to explode ...
1134 2014-04-05 19:43:00 <sipa> the version is 2, or the number 0x00000002
1135 2014-04-05 19:43:27 <sipa> whivh, as a little endian encoding, is stored as 0x02 0x00 0x00 0XXX00
1136 2014-04-05 19:43:31 <sipa> eh
1137 2014-04-05 19:43:37 <sipa> 02 00 00 00
1138 2014-04-05 19:44:01 <melvster> sipa: ok so I think also 1d00ffff is little endian
1139 2014-04-05 19:44:07 <melvster> also
1140 2014-04-05 19:44:20 <melvster> hence as a number it would be 0xffff001d
1141 2014-04-05 19:45:12 <sipa> no, the other way aroumd
1142 2014-04-05 19:45:16 <melvster> hmmmmm
1143 2014-04-05 19:45:35 <melvster> this is from the output of bfgminer
1144 2014-04-05 19:45:37 <sipa> the number is 0x1d00ffff, the bytes are ff ff 00 1d
1145 2014-04-05 19:46:57 <melvster> sipa: but bfgminer *I think* is giving me : 02000000 and 1d00ffff
1146 2014-04-05 19:47:19 <sipa> well, i have no idea about bfgminer
1147 2014-04-05 19:47:42 <melvster> and e.g. d4474053 for the timestamp which is 0x534047d4
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1149 2014-04-05 19:48:42 <melvster> hmm well the wiki does say : block.nBits    = 0x1d00ffff
1150 2014-04-05 19:48:57 <melvster> ah that was even in the code
1151 2014-04-05 19:50:13 <melvster> very interesting
1152 2014-04-05 19:50:50 <melvster> so it seems if i understand correctly (which I probably dont!) the bfg miner when it submits a block, submits everything little endian but the nbits big endian :/
1153 2014-04-05 19:51:10 <melvster> let me read the raw tx
1154 2014-04-05 19:51:21 <melvster> scarily enough by now i can read that more easily than block explorer!
1155 2014-04-05 19:51:46 <melvster> wow yes
1156 2014-04-05 19:51:47 <melvster> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Genesis_block
1157 2014-04-05 19:51:59 <melvster> sipa: thanks!
1158 2014-04-05 19:53:24 <melvster> ahhhh
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1167 2014-04-05 20:04:15 <melvster> sipa: I think I found the problem ... I was feeding it in ffff001d cut and paste from the wiki
1168 2014-04-05 20:04:19 <melvster> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getblocktemplate#For_developers
1169 2014-04-05 20:04:24 <melvster> to getblock template
1170 2014-04-05 20:04:31 <melvster> I think the field in the wiki is wrong, then?
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1172 2014-04-05 20:05:28 <kazcw> q
1173 2014-04-05 20:05:29 <kazcw> q
1174 2014-04-05 20:07:18 <melvster> is anyone allowed to edit a wiki, or do you need to be approved?
1175 2014-04-05 20:07:32 <GAit> you need to pay a small btc amount (lik 1$)
1176 2014-04-05 20:07:54 <melvster> yeah that's ok :)
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1180 2014-04-05 20:10:05 <melvster> tho it's darn weird that those bits are reversed in the wiki
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1187 2014-04-05 20:18:28 <jiffe98> anyone know why I might be getting a 70-71 byte set from ecdsa.sign in the bitcoinjs library?  It verifies using the same library but other libraries such as those for python and php are looking for a 65 byte set
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1200 2014-04-05 20:35:08 <coryfields> maaku: awesome, thanks for doing that. mind posting your results on the PR ?
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1205 2014-04-05 20:39:55 <kuzetsa> on average, how much incoming & outgoing bandwidth should a bitcoin-core (bitcoind) node with 51 connections be using? ... it seems high (I just installed munin today so I could have a more detailed look)
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1207 2014-04-05 20:41:13 <kuzetsa> and when I say "it seems high" I mean "it's high enough that if this node was running on residential brodband the ISP might be concerned"
1208 2014-04-05 20:42:01 <kuzetsa> brodband [tm] is about the quality of service my old ISP had, but really it was just a typo :)
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1212 2014-04-05 20:44:10 <kuzetsa> so far @ 1.8M avg, 5.32M max (outgoing bandwidth)
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1217 2014-04-05 20:51:40 <phantomcircuit> kuzetsa, that depends entirely on whether you have new peers or old peers
1218 2014-04-05 20:53:24 <Luke-Jr> melvster: as a number, initial nbits would be 00000000ffff0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ☺
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1220 2014-04-05 20:53:57 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: there is a lot of variance depending on if other new nodes are pulling blocks from you or not.
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1222 2014-04-05 20:54:11 <kuzetsa> phantomcircuit: hmm... so the fact that I rebooted the node recently (kernel upgrade) means I likely have a bunch of new peers syncing the blockchain or something?
1223 2014-04-05 20:54:38 <phantomcircuit> kuzetsa, it means you'll have a statistically higher number of new peers synching
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1225 2014-04-05 20:54:49 <kuzetsa> I see
1226 2014-04-05 20:55:03 <phantomcircuit> the longer the node is active the most likely it is that you have peers that already have the blockchain
1227 2014-04-05 20:55:40 <kuzetsa> right, yeah
1228 2014-04-05 20:55:44 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, ping
1229 2014-04-05 20:55:59 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, do you have bandwidth statistics for your relay network?
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1232 2014-04-05 20:57:13 <kuzetsa> I wonder if I need to re-evaluate my participation in pool.ntp.org again (and/or check configuration) ... there was an ntp reflection attack going on lately I think & I'm not certain if I set up the rate limiting correctly to make things less bad
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1234 2014-04-05 20:57:53 <melvster> Luke-Jr: true I guess target, nbits, difficulty are all related but slightly different
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1239 2014-04-05 20:58:50 <phantomcircuit> kuzetsa, iirc the primary solution is a challenge response addition to the ntp protocol which should be enforcible in large numbers relatively quickly
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1241 2014-04-05 20:59:10 <phantomcircuit> also hopefully ntpd starts to come with a default sane policy sometime soon :P
1242 2014-04-05 20:59:59 <kuzetsa> phantomcircuit: yeah, I adjusted my tos lines and whatnot just a little bit to try to prevent anyone from hammering too fast, but I'm not certain I did it right
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1244 2014-04-05 21:00:22 <kuzetsa> "kiss of death" among other things, etc.
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1247 2014-04-05 21:01:54 <phantomcircuit> kuzetsa, it would be east enough to just require that all udp requests be full 64k packets
1248 2014-04-05 21:02:05 <kuzetsa> I'm not too worried about ntp or bitcoin, as the 2 TB/month transfer limit at my datacenter isn't in any danger of being reached... just seems strange that so much bandwidth is being used by mostly just ntp and bitcoin and hardly nothing else
1249 2014-04-05 21:02:22 <phantomcircuit> magic no possibility for amplification
1250 2014-04-05 21:02:30 <kuzetsa> heh
1251 2014-04-05 21:02:42 <Luke-Jr> melvster: nbits is a 32-bit floating-point encoding for target
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1253 2014-04-05 21:02:45 <kuzetsa> that wouldn't work for public ntp servers
1254 2014-04-05 21:02:49 <phantomcircuit> but that solution is far too obvious and clean for anybody to implement
1255 2014-04-05 21:02:49 <Luke-Jr> custom*
1256 2014-04-05 21:03:12 <phantomcircuit> kuzetsa, nonsense there is no way any of the public ntp servers are anywhere near bandwidth limits
1257 2014-04-05 21:03:25 <kuzetsa> uhh
1258 2014-04-05 21:03:34 Nothing4You has joined
1259 2014-04-05 21:03:39 <kuzetsa> at least not due to legitimate traffic, no
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1261 2014-04-05 21:04:24 <phantomcircuit> kuzetsa, yeah and if amplification attacks became impossible.....
1262 2014-04-05 21:04:30 <phantomcircuit> there would only be legitimate traffic
1263 2014-04-05 21:04:58 <phantomcircuit> increase average request size by ~64x and make amplification attacks impossible
1264 2014-04-05 21:05:21 <phantomcircuit> or implement a relatively complicated challenge/response system that requires something more than just bandwidth
1265 2014-04-05 21:05:52 <kuzetsa> ntp itself is very bandwidth light though... only like 4 tiny packets round trip in total or something
1266 2014-04-05 21:06:25 <kuzetsa> I wouldn't be able to run a public server if there was even 10x more bandwidth required
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1268 2014-04-05 21:07:43 <kuzetsa> nevermind I'm gonna go back to #ntp and ask if my config looks sane
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1270 2014-04-05 21:08:09 <kuzetsa> sorry for the off-topic commentary WRT figuring out cause of so much bandwidth use
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1325 2014-04-05 22:25:16 <axilla> in what ways can bitcoins be used in games creativly
1326 2014-04-05 22:25:20 <axilla> i dont just mean gambling on games
1327 2014-04-05 22:25:31 <axilla> i mean integrating it into a game in some way
1328 2014-04-05 22:25:33 <axilla> to add value
1329 2014-04-05 22:25:36 cagedwisdom has joined
1330 2014-04-05 22:26:03 <axilla> to the game that is, not bitcoin
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1334 2014-04-05 22:35:25 <maaku> coryfields: posted
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1349 2014-04-05 22:56:28 <jiffe98> anyone know why I might be getting a 69-72 byte set returned from Bitcoin.ECDSA.sign in the bitcoinjs library?  It verifies using the same library but other libraries such as those for python and php are looking for a 65 byte set
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1358 2014-04-05 22:59:14 <sipa> jiffe98: 69-72 byte sounds like a DER encoded signature
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1368 2014-04-05 23:08:02 <jiffe98> sipa yeah I think thats it
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1387 2014-04-05 23:23:24 <sipa> jiffe98: bitcoin transactions hse DER
1388 2014-04-05 23:23:24 <sipa> jiffe98: message signatures use a custom 65-byte format
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1395 2014-04-05 23:29:59 <BCB> is this correct for block header: 1	 txn_count	var_int	 Number of transaction entries, this value is always 0
1396 2014-04-05 23:32:10 <Luke-Jr> no
1397 2014-04-05 23:32:10 <BCB> or does the wiki need updateing
1398 2014-04-05 23:32:10 <sipa> BCB: it is correct for header messages
1399 2014-04-05 23:32:10 <sipa> BCB: it is not correct for any header
1400 2014-04-05 23:32:10 benkay has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1401 2014-04-05 23:32:10 <BCB> well friggin A!  https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
1402 2014-04-05 23:32:10 <sipa> header nessages essentially send block data structures, but without transactioms
1403 2014-04-05 23:32:10 <sipa> the wiki is correct
1404 2014-04-05 23:32:19 <BCB> sipa so a "block header messsage" is different then the actual "Block Header"
1405 2014-04-05 23:33:03 <BCB> ?
1406 2014-04-05 23:33:09 <sipa> there is no 'block header' data structure
1407 2014-04-05 23:33:27 <sipa> only a 'block' data structure
1408 2014-04-05 23:33:41 <sipa> whuch is sent both in 'block' and 'header' packets
1409 2014-04-05 23:33:43 <BCB> and part of the "block" data structure is the "header"?
1410 2014-04-05 23:33:49 <sipa> yes
1411 2014-04-05 23:34:00 <BCB> sipa, did you come up with these names?
1412 2014-04-05 23:34:04 <sipa> no
1413 2014-04-05 23:34:10 <BCB> sipa good
1414 2014-04-05 23:34:26 <sipa> i think the protocol is silly here
1415 2014-04-05 23:34:36 <sipa> but there's no point in changing it
1416 2014-04-05 23:34:46 <BCB> what is silly?
1417 2014-04-05 23:35:00 <sipa> the fact that header messages carry a txn count at all
1418 2014-04-05 23:35:10 <sipa> it should be implicitly 0
1419 2014-04-05 23:35:38 <sipa> instead of needing an explicit txn count which is always 0 to be submitted
1420 2014-04-05 23:35:53 <BCB> so ideally txn count should be dropped
1421 2014-04-05 23:35:57 <sipa> meh
1422 2014-04-05 23:36:05 <sipa> it's just one byte
1423 2014-04-05 23:36:10 <BCB> but it's confusing
1424 2014-04-05 23:36:19 <BCB> bit
1425 2014-04-05 23:36:20 <BCB> coin
1426 2014-04-05 23:36:23 <BCB> currency
1427 2014-04-05 23:36:23 <Luke-Jr> I'd ack a patch that made it optional on the receiving end.. ;)
1428 2014-04-05 23:36:25 <BCB> commedity
1429 2014-04-05 23:36:34 <sipa> Luke-Jr: you can't
1430 2014-04-05 23:36:43 <BCB> Luke-Jr, i'd ack that if I had a github account
1431 2014-04-05 23:36:43 <Luke-Jr> sipa: why not?
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1433 2014-04-05 23:36:48 <sipa> Luke-Jr: not without negotiatinh that it will not be there
1434 2014-04-05 23:36:57 <Luke-Jr> sipa: receiving end, not sending
1435 2014-04-05 23:37:09 <Luke-Jr> oh wait
1436 2014-04-05 23:37:12 <sipa> Luke-Jr: you'd interpret the first byte opf the next header as the txn count of the former
1437 2014-04-05 23:37:14 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin core never receives these <.<
1438 2014-04-05 23:37:25 <Luke-Jr> oh, they're just concatenated? ew
1439 2014-04-05 23:37:37 <sipa> it's a vector of cblocks
1440 2014-04-05 23:37:43 <sipa> just with transactions removed
1441 2014-04-05 23:38:08 <Luke-Jr> well, then in that case I'm just going to think of it as an unnecessary null terminator
1442 2014-04-05 23:38:10 <Luke-Jr> :P
1443 2014-04-05 23:38:22 <sipa> prefix
1444 2014-04-05 23:38:28 <sipa> ah, no!
1445 2014-04-05 23:38:30 <sipa> nvm
1446 2014-04-05 23:39:58 <BCB> what are the two bytes that come after the nonce in the block data structure
1447 2014-04-05 23:40:09 <BCB> txn count and...
1448 2014-04-05 23:40:11 <BCB> ?
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1450 2014-04-05 23:42:34 <BCB> The wicki protocol specification only list messages.  Is there a page that maps the block data structure?
1451 2014-04-05 23:42:50 <sipa> the txn count can be 1, 3 or 5 bytes, it's a varint
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1453 2014-04-05 23:43:12 <sipa> but block = header + txn count + txn
1454 2014-04-05 23:43:20 <sipa> nothing else
1455 2014-04-05 23:43:22 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#block
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1457 2014-04-05 23:44:41 <BCB> that is what I was looking at.  You just said the "block message" was different that then the "header" in the block data strucutre
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1459 2014-04-05 23:45:34 <BCB> sipa, but block = header + txn count + txn <---- what is "txn"
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1461 2014-04-05 23:47:02 <sipa> transactions
1462 2014-04-05 23:47:32 <BCB> sipa I understand but what does "transactions" represent
1463 2014-04-05 23:47:40 <sipa> ...?
1464 2014-04-05 23:47:46 <sipa> transactions...
1465 2014-04-05 23:47:49 <BCB> txn count = number of transactions in the block
1466 2014-04-05 23:47:52 <BCB> yes?
1467 2014-04-05 23:47:55 <sipa> the list of transactions i  that blovk
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1469 2014-04-05 23:48:00 <sipa> no other way to put it
1470 2014-04-05 23:48:08 <jiffe98> sipa I'm seeing that, I'm looking at the python code to sign a message, it loops through and tries 4 different values to append to the beginning of the signature after which it fails with 'error: cannot sign message', does this mean some messages can't be signed?
1471 2014-04-05 23:48:49 <sipa> jiffe98: that is message signing indeed, not transaction signing
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1474 2014-04-05 23:49:01 <sipa> jiffe98: no, every message can be signed
1475 2014-04-05 23:50:02 <BCB> sipa the header is version->nonce next is "txn count" = number of transactions in the block, next is "txn"
1476 2014-04-05 23:50:08 <Luke-Jr> BCB: please do your homework before asking stupid questions
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1478 2014-04-05 23:50:38 <BCB> Luke-Jr, pardon my ignorance but I'm trying to understand a detail
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1480 2014-04-05 23:51:53 <BCB> there are two values txn_count and txns  you are telling me they both represent the same thing?
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1482 2014-04-05 23:52:50 <sipa> sheesh
1483 2014-04-05 23:53:00 <sipa> the first is the number of transactions
1484 2014-04-05 23:53:07 <sipa> then follow the transactions themselves
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1486 2014-04-05 23:53:39 <sipa> and when sending a header message, the transactions are omitted
1487 2014-04-05 23:53:48 <sipa> and as txn count 0 is sent
1488 2014-04-05 23:54:44 <Luke-Jr> BCB: the link I gave you elaborates
1489 2014-04-05 23:55:23 <BCB> Luke-Jr, i'm parsing a block and I get 01 for txn - that is not zero
1490 2014-04-05 23:55:32 <BCB> not a block message
1491 2014-04-05 23:56:08 <Luke-Jr> a block message and a block are the same thing
1492 2014-04-05 23:56:58 <sipa> BCB: ok, so you have a block with 1 transaction?
1493 2014-04-05 23:57:23 <sipa> if you received that in a headers message, that would be a bug
1494 2014-04-05 23:57:51 <sipa> as headers (in the protocol) are blocks with the transactions replaced by an empty list
1495 2014-04-05 23:58:52 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I think he's parsing blk*.dat
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1497 2014-04-05 23:59:18 <BCB> Luke-Jr, correct
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1499 2014-04-05 23:59:38 <Luke-Jr> so no idea why he brought up the block header msg
1500 2014-04-05 23:59:54 <BCB> after nonce I have tx_count=09 and txns=01