1 2014-04-06 00:00:32 <Luke-Jr> [23:41:45] <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#block
   2 2014-04-06 00:00:34 <Luke-Jr> read it
   3 2014-04-06 00:00:34 <BCB> Luke-Jr, the documentation you point to specifically refers to "block message"
   4 2014-04-06 00:00:39 <sipa> BCB: grrrr
   5 2014-04-06 00:00:46 <Luke-Jr> yes, that's why blk*.dat is comprised of
   6 2014-04-06 00:01:02 <sipa> BCB: txn IS THE TRANSACTIONS
   7 2014-04-06 00:01:07 <BCB> ok
   8 2014-04-06 00:01:13 <BCB> thank you
   9 2014-04-06 00:01:19 <sipa> it is not a byte
  10 2014-04-06 00:01:47 <BCB> sipa what is it?
  11 2014-04-06 00:02:18 <sipa> BCB: THE F*CKING TRANSACTIONS
  12 2014-04-06 00:02:41 <sipa> a block is a header with a list of transactions after it
  13 2014-04-06 00:02:59 <uiop> BCB: as in "struct {....; size_t n; xxx_t x[n];}"
  14 2014-04-06 00:03:16 <uiop> if you could do that in C
  15 2014-04-06 00:03:52 <uiop> (you can of course do "...xxx_t x[];}")
  16 2014-04-06 00:04:15 <sipa> please do your homework and read until you understand the purpose of blocks and transactions in bitcoin
  17 2014-04-06 00:04:27 <BCB> ok thanks
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  21 2014-04-06 00:09:34 <uiop> BCB: the byte you read as txns (txns=01) is just the first 8 bits of the first transaction in the list of nine (tx_count=09)
  22 2014-04-06 00:10:44 <uiop> i'm not sure at what level would be helpful for you, but that's the explicit explanation for what you've done
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  26 2014-04-06 00:11:32 <BCB> uiop, very help full
  27 2014-04-06 00:11:51 <BCB> checking now.  I just have two byte that are confusing me
  28 2014-04-06 00:11:53 <BCB> 0901
  29 2014-04-06 00:12:00 <BCB> (off the wire)
  30 2014-04-06 00:12:21 <BCB> reading from memory
  31 2014-04-06 00:12:46 <uiop> transactions are variable-length as well, on account of the script
  32 2014-04-06 00:13:10 <BCB> uiop yes I'm aware
  33 2014-04-06 00:13:30 <andyleap> has anyone done hardware wallet stuff on something like an arduino?
  34 2014-04-06 00:14:35 <BCB> uiop, mind a pm. I don't want to piss anyone else off
  35 2014-04-06 00:15:10 <uiop> so you have move forward hopping between the embedded length fields. on some level the exact same reason don't know how many bytes into a utf8-encoded string the "10th character" is
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 124 2014-04-06 02:00:39 <vetch> andyleap: if there's a way of locking the things against reprogramming over usb, then I guess there's not a heap stopping you. no source of good entropy means you need to source that manually, externally for the initial setup I would imagine.
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 128 2014-04-06 02:01:30 <andyleap> found a library where someone had managed to do random off of jitter from watchdog timer
 129 2014-04-06 02:02:33 <andyleap> generated 400 mb of random data over a couple months or so, and tested, and it looked like relatively high quality random
 130 2014-04-06 02:03:17 <andyleap> tested in 10mb chunks, so I think that's decent, at least for signing transactions
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 134 2014-04-06 02:05:56 <andyleap> it's just fun, cause I didn't know anything about cryptography until yesterday(other then the basics of public/private and one way functions)
 135 2014-04-06 02:06:11 <andyleap> and I haven't found any code for an arduino so far
 136 2014-04-06 02:06:28 <BCB> sipa, Luke-Jr Figured it out.  I had my tnx count and txn bytes confused.  They guys at btc have at  irc.conformal.com:6697 #btcd
 137 2014-04-06 02:06:28 <BCB>  have some great documentation: https://github.com/conformal/btcwire/blob/master/msgblock_test.go#L511-L550
 138 2014-04-06 02:06:39 <BCB> *btcd
 139 2014-04-06 02:06:55 <Luke-Jr> we only told you that like 4208942 times
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 141 2014-04-06 02:07:16 <BCB> Luke-Jr, clearly it was not effective
 142 2014-04-06 02:07:45 vfamuojwmdxpdusf has joined
 143 2014-04-06 02:08:04 <vetch> andyleap: there's absolutely no way you should be using that for a cryptographic purpose. signing doesn't necessarily need any random input anyway, there's ways for it to be deterministic but still secure.
 144 2014-04-06 02:08:57 <vetch> private key generation absolutely needs random input though, be it straight random numbers or a generated bip32 seed.
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 149 2014-04-06 02:09:44 <andyleap> yeah, was planning on it being a "load only" wallet
 150 2014-04-06 02:10:05 <andyleap> so you generate the key on an offline desktop or something, then load it into the wallet
 151 2014-04-06 02:10:11 <andyleap> and it can go from there
 152 2014-04-06 02:12:24 <andyleap> like I said, I'm still learning about the cryptography involved
 153 2014-04-06 02:14:18 <vetch> bitcoin probably isn't that place to learn basic crypto concepts. mistakes are literally expensive here.
 154 2014-04-06 02:15:47 vfamuojwmdxpdusf has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
 155 2014-04-06 02:15:54 <andyleap> well, I have no bitcoins, and it seems that bitcoin and related currencys use crypto in different ways then most other crypto
 156 2014-04-06 02:15:54 vfamuojwmdxpdusf has joined
 157 2014-04-06 02:16:16 <andyleap> i.e. most usages of crypto don't involve a forthlike scripting language, that I know of
 158 2014-04-06 02:16:45 <andyleap> I understand crypto, I'm just getting into the actual math and bitcoins implementation of crypto
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 160 2014-04-06 02:17:48 <vetch> the scripting language isn't really crypto in that sense. its fairly easy to get your head around once you have the basics. I was more talking about the EC parts, where things get complicated.
 161 2014-04-06 02:18:20 <andyleap> yeah, the EC stuff isn't actually that complex
 162 2014-04-06 02:18:21 <vetch> I would be shocked if there's a usable EC library for whatever micro the arduino uses.
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 164 2014-04-06 02:19:03 <andyleap> I'm not exactly new to programming, so the biggest complexity was more "how the crap did they come up with this?"
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 166 2014-04-06 02:20:50 <Zarutian> andyleap: eliptic curve crypto or the idea behind bitcoin in general?
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 169 2014-04-06 02:21:21 <andyleap> a little of both
 170 2014-04-06 02:21:50 <gmaxwell> andyleap: Bitcoin (and its clones) is the only deployment of a programable signature system, though there has been writing about this stuff for eons.
 171 2014-04-06 02:22:17 <gmaxwell> (there is even far out theoretical work on making _encryption_ work with script like conditions on the keys)
 172 2014-04-06 02:22:19 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 173 2014-04-06 02:22:38 <andyleap> some of the operations in EC are a little "I'll take your word on that", like the whole EC double thing, it seems a little wack compared to the standard point add
 174 2014-04-06 02:22:45 <vetch> andyleap: ask blockchain.info how you can screw up an otherwise happily functional EC signature system and reveal people's private keys.
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 178 2014-04-06 02:23:24 * Zarutian is just glad that satoshi didnt go with SHA512 lamport signitures.
 179 2014-04-06 02:23:31 cyrozap has joined
 180 2014-04-06 02:23:39 <gmaxwell> andyleap: some curves don't need a special defintion of doubling (e.g. ones without a constant in the curve equation). But all this arises out of a pretty standard geometric law for addition.
 181 2014-04-06 02:23:50 cadaver has joined
 182 2014-04-06 02:24:12 <vetch> andyleap: implementation details, like you can't use web workers in Firefox to sign transactions because they all are spawned with the RNG state. not strictly related to the conversation, but too hilarious not to mention.
 183 2014-04-06 02:24:30 <gmaxwell> vetch: well they were warned that their code there was unsafe long ago. ::shrugs::  DSA is a bit brittle in general though but thats DSA's fault.
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 186 2014-04-06 02:25:03 <Zarutian> oh, I recall that Sony Playstation debacle regarding DSA
 187 2014-04-06 02:25:17 <gmaxwell> vetch: it's actually even worse than that, it was using window.crypto which just doesn't exist in web workers (no dom access) but it was wrapped with a try block that replaced it with math.random if the window.crypto failed! (the crazyness of doing that is what they'd been warned about)
 188 2014-04-06 02:25:34 <vetch> Zarutian: they were even worse, used a static value for ALL signatures intentionally.
 189 2014-04-06 02:25:47 <gmaxwell> they just didn't know that you couldn't do that. (doh)
 190 2014-04-06 02:25:52 <gmaxwell> (presumably)
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 192 2014-04-06 02:26:10 <olalonde> hmmm I did "brew link openssl --force"  but "openssl version" returns "OpenSSL 0.9.8y 5 Feb 2013"
 193 2014-04-06 02:26:11 <gmaxwell> one thing about security bugs in general is that the fault is usually completely invisble until someone goes and exploits it.
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 195 2014-04-06 02:26:21 <vetch> gmaxwell: wait what. the worlds most secure web wallet signs transactions with math.random?
 196 2014-04-06 02:26:35 <vetch> that's hysterical!
 197 2014-04-06 02:26:54 <archrs> rule 1 of quantatative risk analysis:  never underestimate human stupidity/genius
 198 2014-04-06 02:26:54 <gmaxwell> vetch: it did when the secure rng wasn't failed... which normally never happened, ... until they moved the signing into a web worker.
 199 2014-04-06 02:27:06 <gmaxwell> vetch: "don't use web wallets" is in the topic for many reasons.
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 202 2014-04-06 02:27:47 * Zarutian has a whole gouard filled with bitterness regarding web 'security'
 203 2014-04-06 02:27:49 <gmaxwell> One of them being that no one who authors a web wallet is competent, because competent people give up at the hopelessness of being secure against script substitution.
 204 2014-04-06 02:28:09 <gmaxwell> crap this is #bitcoin-dev and not #bitcoin, we're kinda OT.
 205 2014-04-06 02:28:12 <vetch> gmaxwell: that's gnarly. remind me why people trust that service to store millions of dollars?
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 207 2014-04-06 02:29:03 <archrs> because they can, vetch
 208 2014-04-06 02:29:05 <Zarutian> gmaxwell: well the discussion is half on topic, half off.
 209 2014-04-06 02:29:09 <gmaxwell> (to be fair the green address people are trying really hard to do better and are learning fast). In any case, security is a lemon market.
 210 2014-04-06 02:29:45 * Zarutian was going to mention a certain party but doesnt.
 211 2014-04-06 02:30:05 <olalonde> seems it linked /usr/local/bin/openssl but not /usr/bin/openssl .. interesting
 212 2014-04-06 02:30:15 <gmaxwell> Zarutian: really even the technical stuff in this discussion belongs in #bitcoin this channel is for _production_ discussion regarding the network and reference client. It's not for bitcoin technology musing or tech support, or whining about insecure bitcoin services.
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 214 2014-04-06 02:30:57 <vetch> gmaxwell: I was (again off topic) talking to the developer of greenwallet.it earlier. not thoroughly convinced but better than the alternatives available presently.
 215 2014-04-06 02:31:02 <gmaxwell> (as much as I also like to join in those things. Basically the channel should be run in such a way that alt. implementors and engineers at bitcoin services find it worth their time to read or at least skim the backscroll)
 216 2014-04-06 02:31:18 <vetch> to #bitcoin with this.
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 223 2014-04-06 02:40:52 <kuzetsa> 53 connections (about the same) but with a longer averaging period it looks like the average outbound bandwith is more than 30% lower at 1.15 mbit/s & the peak bandwidth spikes still hasn't exceeded 5.32 mbit/s so like... I guess I just never realized how intense running a "full node" with bitcoin-core was & it's probably been this bandwidth intensive all along?
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 225 2014-04-06 02:42:34 <kuzetsa> gmaxwell, phantomcircuit: thanks for the input earlier
 226 2014-04-06 02:43:10 <kuzetsa> also, I confirmed my ntp server isn't vulnerable & usable for the reflection attacks, so that bandwidth really is mostly from bitcoind :(
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 229 2014-04-06 02:46:19 <vetch> kuzetsa: really depends who your peers are. you might get new nodes requesting blocks all day, or an spv client that cranks up the bloom filters and burns your CPU. luck of the draw.
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 236 2014-04-06 02:48:35 <kuzetsa> uhg :(
 237 2014-04-06 02:49:23 <kuzetsa> vetch: allright then, thanks... I guess it was unreasonable to expect I could run it on the same relatively modest hardware I was using in 2012
 238 2014-04-06 02:49:54 <vetch> kuzetsa: $5 a month on digitalocean will probably be enough for you to run a full node and never worry about bandwidth.
 239 2014-04-06 02:50:09 <kuzetsa> hmm
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 242 2014-04-06 02:51:14 <kazcw> there's also -maxconnections
 243 2014-04-06 02:51:24 <kuzetsa> well yeah, I'm currently paying $20/mo for 50 gig SSD-backed with 8-core CPU & 2 TB/mo transfer
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 246 2014-04-06 02:52:00 <kuzetsa> looks like digitalocean doesn't really sell 8-core developer friendly boxes I can compile stuff nearly as fast on
 247 2014-04-06 02:52:55 <kuzetsa> vetch: digitalocean's $5 plan only has 20 gig SSD and the blockchain won't fit on that
 248 2014-04-06 02:53:38 <vetch> kuzetsa: oh, things have changed since last year. probably a bit more costly now then.
 249 2014-04-06 02:54:00 <kuzetsa> what?
 250 2014-04-06 02:54:14 <kuzetsa> my $20/mo plan isn't digitalocean
 251 2014-04-06 02:54:14 <vetch> well last year it wasn't 20gb and would have fitted.
 252 2014-04-06 02:54:32 <kuzetsa> speaking of blockchain...
 253 2014-04-06 02:54:54 <Zarutian> what is bip32 again?
 254 2014-04-06 02:55:14 <kuzetsa> I've got a 3 gigabyte debug.log in my ~/.bitcoin directory... will it crash my node if I delete that while it's running?
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 257 2014-04-06 02:56:14 <kuzetsa> 3,807,214,045 bytes is actually closer to 4 gigabytes... large enough to annoy me quite a lot :(
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 260 2014-04-06 02:58:14 <kuzetsa> nevermind, a restart doesn't really hurt me & this question doesn't feel suited for #b -dev anyway
 261 2014-04-06 03:01:24 <Burrito> Don't think it would crash it.
 262 2014-04-06 03:02:00 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: you can delete it.
 263 2014-04-06 03:02:18 <gmaxwell> kill -HUP the process after doing so for it to release it and make a new one.
 264 2014-04-06 03:02:28 <gmaxwell> If you were not running with debug=1 it would autorotate it.
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 270 2014-04-06 03:06:41 <kuzetsa> gmaxwell: there's an autorotate option? does that go in my .conf or what?
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 273 2014-04-06 03:06:59 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: it's not an option, it's just what it does when you don't have debug=1
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 277 2014-04-06 03:08:06 <gmaxwell> (really having the daemon itself autorotate is pretty ununixy— but bitcoind does a number of ununixy things, but fewer than it used to, though personally I'd prefer to not log by default, but instead just keep a circular buffer that gets emited on dying gasp)
 278 2014-04-06 03:08:21 <kuzetsa> ...
 279 2014-04-06 03:09:16 <kuzetsa> wait, so disable the debug log if I really don't care to do debugging on this node and if there's ever a problem I'd better hope it's reproducable and turn debug logging back on? heh
 280 2014-04-06 03:09:29 <kuzetsa> 'cause that makes sense :)
 281 2014-04-06 03:09:55 <kuzetsa> how do I disable / re-enable debug logging anyway? is debug=1 (or some other value) a .conf option?
 282 2014-04-06 03:10:51 <kuzetsa> on forums (from october 2011) someone said: You can replace the logfile with a symbolic link to /dev/null
 283 2014-04-06 03:11:04 <gmaxwell> of course you can.
 284 2014-04-06 03:11:22 <kuzetsa> so a symbolic link to /dev/null won't break it?
 285 2014-04-06 03:11:30 <kuzetsa> bitcoind will just happily use that instead of an actual log?
 286 2014-04-06 03:11:33 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: you must have debug=1 in your conf or in your command line or it would be auto-rotating already.
 287 2014-04-06 03:11:43 <kuzetsa> oh
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 289 2014-04-06 03:11:50 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: yes, this works generally for all programs.
 290 2014-04-06 03:11:56 hsmiths has joined
 291 2014-04-06 03:11:57 <kuzetsa> I wouldn't know
 292 2014-04-06 03:12:02 <gmaxwell> debug=1 turns up the amount of logging and stops auto-rotation.
 293 2014-04-06 03:12:29 <kuzetsa> I'm a very un-unixy sysadmin (mcsa / mcse like a decade ago & worked in a microsoft shop or two)
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 297 2014-04-06 03:13:19 <kuzetsa> no
 298 2014-04-06 03:13:29 <kuzetsa> I just checked & my bitcoin.conf does not have debug=1
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 306 2014-04-06 03:14:44 <gmaxwell> what does it have?
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 309 2014-04-06 03:15:03 <kuzetsa> no is there a reference to "debug of any kind" in my /etc/conf.d/bitcoind or /etc/init.d/bitcoind
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 317 2014-04-06 03:16:35 <kuzetsa> https://gist.github.com/kuzetsa/10001041 <-- redacted bitcoin.conf (4 lines had things which I'd rather not be made public)
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 320 2014-04-06 03:17:49 <gmaxwell> hm. Interesting. well my memory was slightly fault we only rotate the log automatically at start. You said yours was 4gb?
 321 2014-04-06 03:18:00 <gmaxwell> interesting that it got so big during a single run and without -debug.
 322 2014-04-06 03:18:14 <kuzetsa> well yeah, something like that (3,807,214,045 bytes)
 323 2014-04-06 03:18:25 <gmaxwell> close enough to 4gb.
 324 2014-04-06 03:18:39 <gmaxwell> do you still have the file?
 325 2014-04-06 03:18:41 <kuzetsa> ... it was actually still growing / timestamp was from just moments before I deleted it and restarted
 326 2014-04-06 03:18:47 <gmaxwell> K.
 327 2014-04-06 03:18:47 <kuzetsa> nah I deleted it
 328 2014-04-06 03:19:03 <vetch> have you got dedicated "connect" lines? could be just the spam of connect failures every n seconds bulking up the log.
 329 2014-04-06 03:19:17 <kuzetsa> come to think of it, that might be really huge [tm] because the other day I deleted the chainstate stuff and had to rebuild it
 330 2014-04-06 03:19:22 <kuzetsa> and never deleted the log afterward
 331 2014-04-06 03:19:28 <gmaxwell> if it bloats up again bug me before you delete it and I can have you check which messages are spamming it.
 332 2014-04-06 03:19:31 <gmaxwell> ohhh
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 334 2014-04-06 03:19:39 <gmaxwell> okay indeed, a rebuild adds a lot, not 4gb a lot but a lot.
 335 2014-04-06 03:19:45 <kuzetsa> no clue
 336 2014-04-06 03:19:54 <vetch> it retries -connected nodes every second or something ridiculous.
 337 2014-04-06 03:20:00 <kuzetsa> I'm just gonna ln -s debug.log /dev/nul
 338 2014-04-06 03:20:14 <gmaxwell> vetch: nothing that happens every N seconds is going to make the log 4gbyte in a short time. :)
 339 2014-04-06 03:20:16 <kuzetsa> wait, or is that backwards
 340 2014-04-06 03:20:23 <kuzetsa> I can never remember ln syntax heh
 341 2014-04-06 03:20:49 <vetch> gmaxwell: clutching at straws, but a failed connect to a very long DNS name every second for a few weeks?
 342 2014-04-06 03:20:52 <kuzetsa> yeah, backwards (target, link name)
 343 2014-04-06 03:21:00 <gmaxwell> vetch: 50 bytes, once per second, would take like 3 years to reach 4gb.
 344 2014-04-06 03:21:40 <vetch> point taken. something else weird going on.
 345 2014-04-06 03:21:40 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: it's like cp  [thing you already have] [thing you want]
 346 2014-04-06 03:22:06 <kuzetsa> that doesn't make sense to me
 347 2014-04-06 03:22:10 andyleap has joined
 348 2014-04-06 03:22:11 <gmaxwell> I dunno what it is that makes everyone (including me) get it backwards sometimes, since it makes perfect sense.
 349 2014-04-06 03:22:39 <kuzetsa> I would think "create a link" command, first argument is "name of link"
 350 2014-04-06 03:22:41 <kuzetsa> but it's not
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 352 2014-04-06 03:23:14 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: no one gets confused by c(o)p(y) source destination   why would link source destination be confusing?
 353 2014-04-06 03:23:38 <kazcw> I think it's because the direction you create it in is opposite the direction it's followed in
 354 2014-04-06 03:23:46 <kuzetsa> <a href="/dev/nul">this seems counter intuitive to me as well</a>   [but with markdown syntax](/dev/nul)  ... makes more sense
 355 2014-04-06 03:24:00 <kazcw> copied files don't have a natural "direction" concept pointing back to their source
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 357 2014-04-06 03:24:20 <kuzetsa> ya know, I've never made a symbolic link to /dev/nul before today
 358 2014-04-06 03:24:32 <gmaxwell> kazcw: well if your filesystem does cow they do. :P
 359 2014-04-06 03:24:35 <kuzetsa> is it normal to be red background with white text according to the default colorization on ls?
 360 2014-04-06 03:24:56 <gmaxwell> there is no default ls colorization, thats system specific.
 361 2014-04-06 03:25:04 <kuzetsa> ...
 362 2014-04-06 03:25:24 <kuzetsa> I've never had a gentoo install without ls colorization enabled by default and bash as the default shell
 363 2014-04-06 03:25:24 <gmaxwell> it's different on fedora, and ubuntu and such.
 364 2014-04-06 03:25:32 <vetch> speaking of. bitcoin logs could do with some colour.
 365 2014-04-06 03:25:36 <gmaxwell> sure it's just not likely the same as mine.
 366 2014-04-06 03:25:38 <gmaxwell> lrwxrwxrwx. 1 gmaxwell gmaxwell 9 Apr  5 20:23 foofoo -> /dev/null
 367 2014-04-06 03:25:42 <kazcw> in the gentoo default, white on read is a dead link
 368 2014-04-06 03:25:47 <gmaxwell> thats                                           ^ cyan         ^ brown
 369 2014-04-06 03:25:55 <kuzetsa> hmm ok then
 370 2014-04-06 03:26:07 <kazcw> it's /dev/null, not /dev/nul
 371 2014-04-06 03:26:23 <kuzetsa> this one is cyan, light gray:  bitcoin.conf -> /etc/bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
 372 2014-04-06 03:27:19 <kuzetsa> oh crap, I wonder if it's because I forgot to chown bitcoin:bitcoin debug.log and it's currently root owned instead of owned by my bitcoin user
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 374 2014-04-06 03:28:50 <kuzetsa> hmm... owned by bitcoin this time and it's still red background / white text
 375 2014-04-06 03:30:02 <kazcw> try: ls $(readlink debug.log)
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 377 2014-04-06 03:31:02 <kuzetsa> kazcw: already killed my screen session & don't have any terminals open... but your usage of readlink is fascinating enough that I'm gonna fire one up out of curiousity O_O
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 381 2014-04-06 03:33:02 <kuzetsa> $ ls $(readlink debug.log) --[output]--> ls: cannot access /dev/nul: No such file or directory
 382 2014-04-06 03:33:06 <kazcw> yeah, that's because it's /dev/null, not /dev/nul
 383 2014-04-06 03:33:13 <kuzetsa> oh crap
 384 2014-04-06 03:33:18 <kuzetsa> kazcw: thanks
 385 2014-04-06 03:33:34 <kuzetsa> it's supposed to be /null eh?
 386 2014-04-06 03:33:41 <kuzetsa> /dev/null even
 387 2014-04-06 03:33:45 <kuzetsa> that... seems wrong
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 389 2014-04-06 03:33:53 <kuzetsa> echo test > nul
 390 2014-04-06 03:34:16 <kuzetsa> on dos / windows that's correct
 391 2014-04-06 03:34:23 <kuzetsa> but it's /dev/null on posix platforms?
 392 2014-04-06 03:35:52 <kuzetsa> ah HA!
 393 2014-04-06 03:36:32 <kuzetsa> I guess so (now I have cyan symbolic link named debug.log pointing at gold /dev/null according to ls -l debug.log)
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 396 2014-04-06 03:37:52 <olalonde> windows uses nul instead of null? weird...
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 399 2014-04-06 03:38:27 <kuzetsa> olalonde: I was using dos before linux existed, and windows uses dos syntax... that's not weird at all
 400 2014-04-06 03:38:35 <gmaxwell> CPMism
 401 2014-04-06 03:38:46 <olalonde> well it's weird in the sense that they made a spelling mistake :)
 402 2014-04-06 03:39:23 <olalonde> ah nevermind, apparently nul is a word too
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 404 2014-04-06 03:39:50 <kuzetsa> http://www.bluesock.org/~willg/dev/ascii.html <-- in ascii a proper zero byte is (nul)
 405 2014-04-06 03:39:51 melik has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 406 2014-04-06 03:40:35 <olalonde> didn't realize there was both a "nul" and "null" word in English
 407 2014-04-06 03:41:14 <kuzetsa> well yeah, nul is a cardinal zero
 408 2014-04-06 03:42:42 <olalonde> if you are not sure about what it is next time, check what the file is called with ls (ls /dev/)
 409 2014-04-06 03:43:21 hexatron has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 410 2014-04-06 03:43:37 <kuzetsa> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc20#section-5.2 -- NUL (Null): The all-zeros character which may serve to accomplish
 411 2014-04-06 03:43:37 <kuzetsa>    time fill and media fill.
 412 2014-04-06 03:43:46 <kuzetsa> oops sorry about the linewrap
 413 2014-04-06 03:44:10 <kuzetsa> RFC 20 is from 1969, awesome hehe
 414 2014-04-06 03:44:40 <kuzetsa> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc20#section-2 <-- fancy chart using 3-letter spellings, etc.
 415 2014-04-06 03:45:18 <olalonde> in unix, input/output devices are represented as files so you can list them and manipulate them as regular files mostly
 416 2014-04-06 03:45:42 <kuzetsa> good point
 417 2014-04-06 03:46:22 <kuzetsa> windows NT sdk-style / api-level you need special trickery to open up a handle for various things like serial ports
 418 2014-04-06 03:46:50 justanot1eruser has joined
 419 2014-04-06 03:47:15 <kuzetsa> interracting with something as though it's a file is still alien to me even though I've theoretically had some experience with posix platforms going back to around '93 or '94 or so :(
 420 2014-04-06 03:47:51 <olalonde> "cp /dev/urandom /dev/fb0" will write random colors to your screen on linux... anyways, this is getting OT :)
 421 2014-04-06 03:48:58 wangbus has joined
 422 2014-04-06 03:49:33 <kuzetsa> yeah, I have a "correctly" named /dev/nul symlink now, thanks for the troubleshooting assist :)
 423 2014-04-06 03:49:45 <kuzetsa> err, /dev/null even :(
 424 2014-04-06 03:49:50 <olalonde> right :)
 425 2014-04-06 03:49:54 * kuzetsa shivvers
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 433 2014-04-06 04:01:27 <olalonde> trying to build on OS X... I ran "make" but it says "make[6]: Nothing to be done for `all-am'."
 434 2014-04-06 04:02:36 mappum has joined
 435 2014-04-06 04:03:04 <olalonde> oops , nevermind
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 437 2014-04-06 04:03:21 <olalonde> the binary files are in src/
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 444 2014-04-06 04:26:23 <gmaxwell> So I think I figured out why the AV things are alarming on the chainstate SSTs and not the block files: clamav at least just doesn't alarm at all if the file is >32 mbytes in size (even if the 'virus' signature is at the front)
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 448 2014-04-06 04:30:34 <olalonde> weird
 449 2014-04-06 04:33:34 debiantoruser has joined
 450 2014-04-06 04:35:43 <olalonde> fix: make SST files larger than 32mbytes :P
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 467 2014-04-06 05:04:10 <aynstein> anyone have a well connected testnet node ?
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 471 2014-04-06 05:15:14 * IBEGONE is away ->  <- Page [FRIENDS] Log [ON]  
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 481 2014-04-06 05:35:20 cmendes0101 has joined
 482 2014-04-06 05:35:43 <cmendes0101> I was trying to develop for blockchain.info/api/api_receive but real testing doesnt show it working correctly and many people have posted the same issues. Anyone know a good alternative to create an address w/ custom call backs? Coinbase doesnt appear to create on the fly passing data points
 483 2014-04-06 05:36:36 sbrossie has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 484 2014-04-06 05:39:40 <warren> cmendes0101: if you need absolute reliability you need to host your own infrastructure
 485 2014-04-06 05:40:08 smash has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 486 2014-04-06 05:40:16 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
 487 2014-04-06 05:41:29 <vetch> cmendes0101: their uptime is ridiculously bad too. you don't ever want to rely on them.
 488 2014-04-06 05:42:40 <cmendes0101> I just had finished coding everything and then real test transfers are just getting lost. I'm not too familiar with performing that locally. I'll try to look into that
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 493 2014-04-06 05:50:35 <olalonde> cmendes0101: have a lookg at insight-api
 494 2014-04-06 05:50:46 <olalonde> cmendes0101: https://github.com/bitpay/insight-api
 495 2014-04-06 05:53:33 <cmendes0101> olalonde: awesome, I was actually trying googling trying to figure out how to get started in that direction
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 498 2014-04-06 05:54:14 <cmendes0101> Looks like theres a lot of good activity on the repo, except there site is down http://insight.bitcore.io/
 499 2014-04-06 05:55:23 <vetch> cmendes0101: your url is wrong. http://live.insight.is/
 500 2014-04-06 05:56:27 <cmendes0101> yah I just found that one. From there notes the project has split into 2. api is still documented with site at .io and the frontend is .is
 501 2014-04-06 05:56:41 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 502 2014-04-06 05:56:56 <cmendes0101> But looks cool, I'll check this out. Thanks for the info guys
 503 2014-04-06 05:58:14 <olalonde> it's basically a database/http layer on top of bitcore (#bitcore)
 504 2014-04-06 06:08:30 disident has quit (Quit: disident)
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 507 2014-04-06 06:13:45 Andymeows has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 508 2014-04-06 06:14:15 <olalonde> is there a built in way in the protocol to establish an encrypted connection with a node?
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 512 2014-04-06 06:15:22 <vetch> rpc supports ssl. p2p does not.
 513 2014-04-06 06:15:45 <olalonde> ok
 514 2014-04-06 06:15:58 <olalonde> I guess I coudl create a ssh tunnel / use openvpn
 515 2014-04-06 06:16:06 <vetch> dont expose your rpc port publically though, thats just silly.
 516 2014-04-06 06:16:28 <vetch> why do you think you need to encrypt your p2p traffic?
 517 2014-04-06 06:16:58 <olalonde> I want need a trusted node to run bitcore and I'd like to host bitcoind on a separate machine
 518 2014-04-06 06:17:39 <vetch> bitcore reads the block files directly as well. you will struggle doing that.
 519 2014-04-06 06:18:19 <olalonde> I don't think it needs access to the block files... at least insight-api doesn't afaik
 520 2014-04-06 06:19:23 <vetch> insight does its initial sync using the raw block files.
 521 2014-04-06 06:19:56 <olalonde> right but it's optional and the local files can be removed afterwards
 522 2014-04-06 06:20:04 roidster has joined
 523 2014-04-06 06:20:13 <olalonde> anyways, you answered the question :)
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 526 2014-04-06 06:22:53 <olalonde> I agree it probably doesn't make much sense to run bitcore on a different machine in most cases
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 582 2014-04-06 08:28:28 <olalonde> I'm bootstrapping the block download with bootstrap.dat.. if i stop the process, will it continue from where it last stopped or will it start again from the start?
 583 2014-04-06 08:28:30 guysoft42 is now known as GuySoft
 584 2014-04-06 08:30:44 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 585 2014-04-06 08:31:13 <gmaxwell> (it'll start at the start but rapidly scan past the part it's has already processed)
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 591 2014-04-06 08:40:59 <olalonde> gmaxwell: ok thanks
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 594 2014-04-06 08:48:21 <olalonde> gmaxwell: any way to disable block verification to speed up the import? the bootstrap.dat comes from a trusted node...
 595 2014-04-06 08:48:49 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: it still needs to build the index
 596 2014-04-06 08:49:17 <gmaxwell> olalonde: no, but most of the time until it hits the signature verification recent blocks is just sha256 and updating the indexes.
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 612 2014-04-06 09:06:42 <olalonde> seems its not possible...well, i'll have to wait :P
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 616 2014-04-06 09:13:29 <qqStrat> Anyone here ?
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 619 2014-04-06 09:21:52 <olalonde> yep
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 646 2014-04-06 09:45:17 <ning> Hi, everybody. I have a question here. The wiki (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#addr) says an address takes 30 bytes, but I found that an address sent over the network takes only 26 bytes. Did I miss something?
 647 2014-04-06 09:46:25 <dexX7> well there is a question mark behind it
 648 2014-04-06 09:47:01 <dexX7> but i think it's 4 byte timestamp + 26 byte addr
 649 2014-04-06 09:47:03 <dexX7> = 30 byte
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 654 2014-04-06 09:52:23 <ning> When I received the "addr" message, the entire payload has 27 bytes (one for address count), 26 bytes are used to represent an address.
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 666 2014-04-06 10:15:19 <ning> I figured out. The addresses sent over the wire are not prefixed with a timestamp. But why?
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 687 2014-04-06 10:40:05 <olalonde> ning: "Starting version 31402, addresses are prefixed with a timestamp. If no timestamp is present, the addresses should not be relayed to other peers, unless it is indeed confirmed they are up." maybe an old client?
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 691 2014-04-06 10:42:27 <olalonde> dexX7
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 693 2014-04-06 10:47:24 <vetch> olalonde: a client that old wouldn't be able to keep with the network. that's prehistoric.
 694 2014-04-06 10:48:17 <olalonde> vetch: do you have a better theory? :P
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 696 2014-04-06 10:50:00 <olalonde> oh.. wire protocol
 697 2014-04-06 10:52:23 <olalonde> does that refer to something else than https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification?
 698 2014-04-06 10:54:17 <ning> I was connecting to a node that advertises itself as /Satoshi:0.8.6/
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 700 2014-04-06 10:55:08 <ning> and my tool advertises itself as /Satoshi:0.7.2/ protocol version 60002
 701 2014-04-06 10:55:11 <olalonde> imo, the most likely is that this node is connected to a pre 31402 node... what's the address anyways?
 702 2014-04-06 10:55:27 phrackage has quit (Quit: phrackage)
 703 2014-04-06 10:55:49 <ning> I was connecting to 69.43.163.188
 704 2014-04-06 10:56:09 <ning> this node is not mine, and I picked it randomly
 705 2014-04-06 10:57:04 <olalonde> but the IP in the "addr" message .. the one without a timestamp
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 707 2014-04-06 10:57:36 <Luke-Jr> [10:53:30] <ning> and my tool advertises itself as /Satoshi:0.7.2/ protocol version 60002 <-- don't do that -.-
 708 2014-04-06 10:58:36 <ning> Okay I won't. But why?
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 710 2014-04-06 10:59:39 <gmaxwell> because it makes it very hard to diagnose and debug things if you lie in the version string.
 711 2014-04-06 10:59:56 <gmaxwell> none of the software behavior depends on the version string
 712 2014-04-06 11:00:24 <ning> Is this good --> /MyTool:0.0.1/ protocol version 60002
 713 2014-04-06 11:00:42 <gmaxwell> s/version/vendor/
 714 2014-04-06 11:00:49 <Apocalyptic> protocol version 60002 // sounds a bit old
 715 2014-04-06 11:00:56 <gmaxwell> ning: sure though why are you 60002?
 716 2014-04-06 11:00:57 <aynstein> sorry, I am kinda whoring out testnet, gunna be done in about 20 minutes
 717 2014-04-06 11:01:21 <aynstein> oops
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 720 2014-04-06 11:03:02 <ning> gmaxwell, I picked it randomly. I will bump it up in later experiments:)
 721 2014-04-06 11:03:06 <Luke-Jr> x.x
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 723 2014-04-06 11:04:19 <olalonde> from the bitcoin wiki: "And here's a modern (60002) protocol version client advertising itself to a local peer..."
 724 2014-04-06 11:04:47 <volante> can anyone help with this problem?  i'm running bitcoind but when i run bitcoin-cli it says: "error: resolve: Host not found (authoritative)".  im not sure what host it's trying to resolve.
 725 2014-04-06 11:06:50 <aynstein> gmaxwell: is it possible to half tetnet blockrewards or is it just 50?
 726 2014-04-06 11:07:16 <aynstein> halve
 727 2014-04-06 11:08:02 <vetch> olalonde: the wiki is very out of date.
 728 2014-04-06 11:08:18 <ning> Another inconsistency with the wiki is that everytime I connect to a remote node, send a version message, I expect a verack message to be sent back. But all I'm getting is addr message or inv message.
 729 2014-04-06 11:08:25 <olalonde> vetch: yes.. that's my point. can't blame him for not knowing which protocol version to chose
 730 2014-04-06 11:08:45 <vetch> its a wiki, if you find something wrong then correct it.
 731 2014-04-06 11:09:09 <olalonde> I think you need to pay for editing right though
 732 2014-04-06 11:09:20 <olalonde> unless this is no longer the case
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 734 2014-04-06 11:09:45 <volante> i can see that bitcoind is listening on port 8332 but for some reason bitcoin-cli complains about not being able to resolve a host.. i just want it to connect to localhost
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 736 2014-04-06 11:09:57 <olalonde> and as I am not a core developer, I have no idea how protocol versions are supposed to work :P
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 738 2014-04-06 11:13:14 <volante> http://pastebin.com/jpa4vCZz
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 741 2014-04-06 11:17:03 <olalonde> ning: maybe because you already sent the message once? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/8556b0298d6b7101b063862fb4ab6b4a67dd2361/src/main.cpp#L3369
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 746 2014-04-06 11:24:21 <ning> olalonde, yes, I think you are right, I was getting the "reject" message (which is not documented in the wiki either). Thanks.
 747 2014-04-06 11:24:46 <olalonde> ning: good
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 749 2014-04-06 11:26:46 <Luke-Jr> ning: it should be..
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 752 2014-04-06 11:29:56 <olalonde> volante: how do you call bitcoin-cli?
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 764 2014-04-06 11:43:54 <volante> olalonde: im getting some help in #bitcoin now.  the problem only happens when i disconnect the machine from the internet.  does rpc not work offline?
 765 2014-04-06 11:44:19 <olalonde> volante: bitcoind is on the same machine?
 766 2014-04-06 11:45:03 <volante> yep
 767 2014-04-06 11:45:28 <volante> i can telnet to it just fine when the network is disconnected.. but bitcoin-cli won't connect
 768 2014-04-06 11:45:42 <gmaxwell> volante: rpc works fine offline
 769 2014-04-06 11:46:09 <gmaxwell> (I just tested)
 770 2014-04-06 11:46:12 <gmaxwell> but spreading things over multiple channels isn't so helpful, and tech support shouldn't be in here.
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 792 2014-04-06 12:06:59 <axilla> is there a better forum than bitcointalk for talking about bitcoin projects?
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 805 2014-04-06 12:20:16 <melvster> anyone know of any examples of the transaction object in BIP22 : https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0022#Transactions_Object_Format
 806 2014-04-06 12:20:50 <Luke-Jr> melvster: libblkmaker's example has a coinbasetxn
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 808 2014-04-06 12:21:21 <Luke-Jr> melvster: or you can just call bitcoind getblocktemplate..
 809 2014-04-06 12:21:39 <melvster> Luke-Jr: thanks!
 810 2014-04-06 12:21:45 Andymeows has joined
 811 2014-04-06 12:22:08 <melvster> i have the coinbasetxn ... just looking for additional tx
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 813 2014-04-06 12:23:02 <Luke-Jr> same format
 814 2014-04-06 12:23:39 <wyrag> hi, anyone know how to fix this? ./bitcoin-qt: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.15' not found (required by ./bitcoin-qt)
 815 2014-04-06 12:23:47 <wyrag> running debian 7
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 817 2014-04-06 12:24:03 <wyrag> bitcoin version 9
 818 2014-04-06 12:24:30 <aynstein> wyrag: probably more of a #bitcoin question but your missing the path, or the compiler itself it looks like
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 821 2014-04-06 12:25:08 <wyrag> thanks
 822 2014-04-06 12:26:13 <sipa> wyrag: known problem; my best advice is to compile it yourself
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 824 2014-04-06 12:26:47 <aynstein> sipa: what is the "problem"?
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 836 2014-04-06 12:44:32 <sipa> aynstein: unnecessary dependency on a newer libc
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 851 2014-04-06 13:05:04 <aynstein> sipa: thanks.
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 899 2014-04-06 14:23:10 <Happzz> what gives an input it's priority, that affects the fee to send it
 900 2014-04-06 14:23:30 <sipa> priority only affects whether it is accepted without fee or not
 901 2014-04-06 14:23:50 <sipa> and priority is bitcoin days destroyed divided by size in bytes
 902 2014-04-06 14:24:00 <sipa> fee itself is just per-byte
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 905 2014-04-06 14:25:42 <roybadami> How does one get wiki edit permissions these days?
 906 2014-04-06 14:25:50 <sipa> one pings HaltingState
 907 2014-04-06 14:26:07 <roybadami> Thanks
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 940 2014-04-06 15:22:38 <olalonde> return (CBigNum(1)<<256) / (bnTarget+1);
 941 2014-04-06 15:22:44 <olalonde> in  CBigNum GetBlockWork() const
 942 2014-04-06 15:23:10 <olalonde> anyone knows why CBigNum is shifted and why 1 is added to bnTarget?
 943 2014-04-06 15:23:27 <PRab> Found a minor Display bug in Bitcoin-QT 0.9 for Windows.
 944 2014-04-06 15:24:49 <lclc> what's the maximum n out of m for multi-signature?   Last time I heard 10 out of 15. Now yesterday someone told me 3 out of 5 is the maximum miners will accepts with luck, more likely is only 2 out of 3? is that right?
 945 2014-04-06 15:24:49 <PRab> If I move it all the way to the right side of the screen (so it automatically resizes to half the screen), then close and re-open it, it ends up hanging off the right side of the screen instead of restoring to the same position.
 946 2014-04-06 15:25:09 <vetch> PRab: raised an issue on GitHub about it?
 947 2014-04-06 15:25:28 <PRab> Not yet. I wanted to make sure that was the correct action to take.
 948 2014-04-06 15:26:12 <vetch> lclc: I think the limit is the size of the resulting transaction more than anything else. you most certainly will never get a 10 of 15
 949 2014-04-06 15:26:24 <tiago> Is there any RSS feed for bitcoin releases/github tags?
 950 2014-04-06 15:26:38 <tiago> I would like to know when a new version is released so I can gitian build
 951 2014-04-06 15:26:52 <olalonde> lclc: I don't think there's a theoretic limit apart from the fact your transaction should not exceed max block size. I'm not sure what's the min/max most miners will accept to mine though
 952 2014-04-06 15:26:57 <lclc> vetch, yes that's what he said
 953 2014-04-06 15:27:34 <vetch> PRab: probably a very low priority bug, but if you can reliably reproduce it then go right ahead. sounds like a windows 8 thing though right?
 954 2014-04-06 15:27:36 <tiago> lclc: there is a variable named MAX_MONEY or something like that
 955 2014-04-06 15:27:45 <tiago> that limits the maximum output of a transaction
 956 2014-04-06 15:27:49 <tiago> correct me if I'm wrong
 957 2014-04-06 15:28:01 <PRab> vetch: Yep, I agree low priority. Windows 7 64bit.
 958 2014-04-06 15:28:10 <vetch> tiago: that has no impact here.
 959 2014-04-06 15:28:11 <sipa> olalonde: work is defined as the expected number of hashes performed
 960 2014-04-06 15:28:18 <sipa> olalonde: that is the formula
 961 2014-04-06 15:28:32 <tiago> vetch: misread the question, sorry
 962 2014-04-06 15:28:57 <vetch> olalonde: there's a maximum transaction size. you can't make 1mb (max block size) transactions.
 963 2014-04-06 15:29:10 <olalonde> sipa: yes I understand that... so basically the sum of all block difficulties
 964 2014-04-06 15:29:28 <olalonde> vetch: ah ok didn't know. what's the max transaction size?
 965 2014-04-06 15:29:41 <lclc> any chance that this maximum size will be bigger in the futures?
 966 2014-04-06 15:29:41 <olalonde> sipa: but still I don't understand that code :(
 967 2014-04-06 15:29:59 <sipa> olalonde: there are 2^256 possible hashes
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 969 2014-04-06 15:30:12 <sipa> olalonde: the ones equal or below the target are fine
 970 2014-04-06 15:30:22 <vetch> olalonde: I don't know off the top of my head.
 971 2014-04-06 15:30:26 <sipa> olalonde: if the target was 0, only hash 0 would be valid
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 973 2014-04-06 15:30:35 <sipa> olalonde: which is one in 2^256
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 975 2014-04-06 15:31:14 <sipa> olalonde: if the target was 1, there would be in 2^256 valid hashes
 976 2014-04-06 15:31:18 <sipa> so you need 2^256/2 hashes to find one on average
 977 2014-04-06 15:31:24 <sipa> olalonde: it's just math
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 979 2014-04-06 15:31:58 <sipa> it computes 2^256 / (target + 1)
 980 2014-04-06 15:33:45 <vetch> sipa: is the sigop-per-block hard limit  mentioned in BIP10 still a thing?
 981 2014-04-06 15:33:59 <olalonde> sipa: ah ok makes sense.. I just thought it could have simply been 1/target... but then you'd have to deal with floats I guess
 982 2014-04-06 15:34:10 <sipa> vetch: it would require a hard fork to remove it
 983 2014-04-06 15:35:02 <vetch> sipa: right, stupid question in hindsight.
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 985 2014-04-06 15:36:42 <vetch> I suppose nothing has ever really taxed it before. its not like there's 1000 multisig transactions in a block to fill the limit. we don't even have that many normal transactions.
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 991 2014-04-06 15:41:19 <tiago> Found an answer to my question (thanks to michagogo|cloud's ifttt recipe) - https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tags.atom
 992 2014-04-06 15:41:33 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|is pinged
 993 2014-04-06 15:41:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah
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 999 2014-04-06 15:45:27 <tiago> michagogo|cloud: Now I get an SMS when bitcoin has a new tag :D
1000 2014-04-06 15:45:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|As do I :P
1001 2014-04-06 15:45:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But you already know that.
1002 2014-04-06 15:45:51 <tiago> yep
1003 2014-04-06 15:46:44 <tiago> i wonder what the ifttt sms thing is powered by
1004 2014-04-06 15:47:55 <olalonde> probably twilio
1005 2014-04-06 15:48:16 benwilber has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1007 2014-04-06 15:49:42 <tiago> olalonde: correct http://www.quora.com/IFTTT-1/Which-SMS-provider-does-ifttt-use/answer/Alexander-Tibbets
1008 2014-04-06 15:49:52 <vetch> I still don't see how they're not haemorrhaging money. like all of these sort of things they'll likely disappear suddenly some day.
1009 2014-04-06 15:50:19 <vetch> they have no visible income and probably have insane bills.
1010 2014-04-06 15:50:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Supposedly it's a Level3 VoIP line
1011 2014-04-06 15:50:43 <tiago> vetch: yeah, twilio changes 4.7¢/message to my number
1012 2014-04-06 15:51:33 <vetch> tiago: yep. just look at how popular some of the "text me the weather every morning" type ones are and you can calculate some of their running costs.
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1014 2014-04-06 15:52:23 <tiago> vetch: I guess they get money from stuff like this - http://www.belkin.com/wemo/ifttt/
1015 2014-04-06 15:52:55 <vetch> 20,000 people have the weather SMSed to them every morning. what.
1016 2014-04-06 15:53:25 <sipa> OT
1017 2014-04-06 15:53:40 <vetch> sorry.
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1020 2014-04-06 15:54:35 <tiago> sorry sipa.
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1023 2014-04-06 15:57:27 <melvster> just want to confirm something, it's possible to send change back to the original input, right, but unusual?
1024 2014-04-06 15:57:39 <melvster> (original input address)
1025 2014-04-06 15:58:42 <sipa> as 'change' does not exist at the protocol level, sure
1026 2014-04-06 15:58:56 <sipa> it's just a regular output that you do with what you want
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1028 2014-04-06 16:00:15 <melvster> thanks
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1061 2014-04-06 16:51:08 <langerhans> Hi. Following the OS X build instructions gives me an executable that links against dylibs (from macports). I obv. can only use that on the build machine. Is there some flag missing to tell the build tools to link statically? This is relevant, but I don't know how to tell autotools to do this: http://stackoverflow.com/a/846194/1902129
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1088 2014-04-06 17:19:59 <Kireji> of interest http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/22cohy/8024121746_mining_18_blocks_today_containing - someone is saying an IP from Germany is mining blocks with increased efficiency but not processing very many transactions to get the reward
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1090 2014-04-06 17:21:20 <Kireji> http://blockchain.info/blocks/80.241.217.46
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1093 2014-04-06 17:24:49 <maaku> for people building services, choice of database *matters* : hackingdistributed.com/2014/04/06/another-one-bites-the-dust-flexcoin/
1094 2014-04-06 17:25:15 <maaku> do not build financial services on top of eventually consistent infrastructure
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1097 2014-04-06 17:27:32 <cmendes0101> With insight-api, does it have a way to do getnewaddress?
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1101 2014-04-06 17:34:03 <speed-> Kireji what's with this
1102 2014-04-06 17:34:06 <speed-> anyone said something?
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1105 2014-04-06 17:39:13 <andytoshi> can somebody more familiar with mining (and more willing to actually read that stupid reddit link) write a response to it?
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1107 2014-04-06 17:39:33 <andytoshi> all i have right now is that the surface claims are nonsensical, but i'm getting slammed by it on #bitcoin
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1111 2014-04-06 17:40:55 <speed-> there is something really fishy going on with this.. they could have not found so many blocks
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1116 2014-04-06 17:41:26 <speed-> gmaxwell, or any other dev, is there some info maybe? :)
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1121 2014-04-06 17:44:41 <andytoshi> speed-: bc.i publishes nonsense
1122 2014-04-06 17:45:07 <andytoshi> you cannot associate an IP address to a block like that, please do not post this crap on #bitcoin-dev
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1126 2014-04-06 17:48:34 <Kireji> speed-: no reply yet
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1128 2014-04-06 17:48:54 <area> andytoshi: You're right, but the fact that the blocks all have 2^n transactions in them does point to them coming from the same source
1129 2014-04-06 17:49:33 <speed-> andytoshi I don't know I just read it as Kireji linked it, so it got me kinda worried
1130 2014-04-06 17:49:38 <area> (I'm just going off of what that reddit thread is saying, I've not looked to see if that's actually true)
1131 2014-04-06 17:49:52 <andytoshi> speed-, area: it is just FUD and it does not belong on -dev
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1133 2014-04-06 17:50:50 <Kireji> andytoshi: ok  can you elaboborate on why?  maybe a link or pointer to somehwere w/ description
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1136 2014-04-06 17:56:31 <axiomist> Kireji: +1 clearly there will be more people asking for this so...  It may be a good thing to offer some kind of quick eli5-explanation. maybe not in here though, dunno.
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1138 2014-04-06 18:00:19 <Kireji> axiomist: yes, not a dev question BUT this needs a swift and definative technical eval and explanation to prevent it being spun into a problem
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1141 2014-04-06 18:00:55 <axiomist> Kireji: yup. top post on /r/bitcoin
1142 2014-04-06 18:00:56 <sipa> what is the problem
1143 2014-04-06 18:00:58 <sipa> ?
1144 2014-04-06 18:01:12 <Kireji> sipa: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/22cohy/8024121746_mining_18_blocks_today_containing
1145 2014-04-06 18:01:55 <Kireji> people are spreading a story that one IP in germany is hashing s^n transactions at a rate far above the norm for transaction processing, and getting unfair rewards without processing enough transactions
1146 2014-04-06 18:01:58 <andytoshi> sipa: there is a reddit post along the lines of the random oracle assumption on SHA256d being broken by some 14-month-old algorithm which some IP address is using, because [gibberish about merkle something] and [bc.i points to this IP address]
1147 2014-04-06 18:02:35 <andytoshi> Kireji: wtf is an "unfair reward", miners can and have always been able to choose what transactions they include
1148 2014-04-06 18:02:36 <sipa> sigh
1149 2014-04-06 18:02:38 <Kireji> this IP http://blockchain.info/blocks/80.241.217.46
1150 2014-04-06 18:02:46 <sipa> when will people learn the first rule of bitcoim?
1151 2014-04-06 18:02:54 <sipa> do not believe blockchain.info
1152 2014-04-06 18:03:00 <sipa> it's the second rule as well
1153 2014-04-06 18:03:32 <axiomist> the nth rule (:
1154 2014-04-06 18:03:39 <sipa> just ignore it
1155 2014-04-06 18:03:40 <Kireji> andytoshi: unfair as in "they get the 25 bitcoins, but do not process enough transactions to keep the network functional"
1156 2014-04-06 18:03:53 <sipa> Kireji: miner's discretion
1157 2014-04-06 18:04:07 <sipa> Kireji: if they choose to ignore the fees from that, it's their full right
1158 2014-04-06 18:04:17 <sipa> if people don't like that, they should pay more fee
1159 2014-04-06 18:04:49 <sipa> now, #bitcoin please
1160 2014-04-06 18:04:52 <Kireji> compeltely agree
1161 2014-04-06 18:06:43 <asdjfgapsudgaasy> Hi guys ! I have a small question about data from https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032_TestVectors : what does the "'" mean ? (like in "Chain m/0'/1/2'/2"). I've been reading the BIP32 and haven't found mention of that notation (sorry if it's a stupid question)
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1169 2014-04-06 18:17:54 <kazcw> it means not a hardened child
1170 2014-04-06 18:18:11 <chmod755> guys........i just had the weirdest computer bug ever
1171 2014-04-06 18:18:42 <sipa> kazcw: no, it means hardened
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1173 2014-04-06 18:18:44 <chmod755> actual insects sitting on my bitcoin miner caused it to stop, because i forgot to close the door
1174 2014-04-06 18:18:58 <asdjfgapsudgaasy> @kazcw : thanks
1175 2014-04-06 18:19:18 <sipa> asdjfgapsudgaasy: it's the old notation for hardened, but it was ambiguous
1176 2014-04-06 18:19:45 <sipa> asdjfgapsudgaasy: i'll update the test vectors too
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1200 2014-04-06 18:48:38 <phantomcircuit> sipa, lol yeah that's just a well connected server
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1206 2014-04-06 18:52:19 <sipa> HectorJ: what was the solkution to the problem you tweeted?
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1209 2014-04-06 18:54:18 <oneblitz> Hi
1210 2014-04-06 18:54:36 <oneblitz> Is there anyone here
1211 2014-04-06 18:54:45 <oneblitz> .
1212 2014-04-06 18:54:51 <chmod755> Yes
1213 2014-04-06 18:56:09 <oneblitz> I'm trying to get in to github/bitcoin...
1214 2014-04-06 18:58:57 <sipa> ok?
1215 2014-04-06 18:59:24 <sipa> http://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
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1217 2014-04-06 19:00:18 <oneblitz> Newbie here..can u offer me some advice in learning btc .. the technical  part..
1218 2014-04-06 19:00:29 <sipa> read the paper
1219 2014-04-06 19:00:32 Neozonz is now known as R2-D2
1220 2014-04-06 19:00:32 <sipa> the wiki
1221 2014-04-06 19:00:40 <sipa> stackexchange
1222 2014-04-06 19:00:44 <oneblitz> Bitcoin.it...?sure
1223 2014-04-06 19:00:52 R2-D2 is now known as R2_D2
1224 2014-04-06 19:00:58 <sipa> yes, though much is outdated there
1225 2014-04-06 19:01:05 R2_D2 is now known as R2|D2
1226 2014-04-06 19:01:14 R2 is now known as D2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Neozonz
1227 2014-04-06 19:01:21 <oneblitz> I'll check it out on stackexchange
1228 2014-04-06 19:01:31 <tommygunner> http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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1230 2014-04-06 19:02:39 <oneblitz> Thx for all these..I'll try hard
1231 2014-04-06 19:02:43 <midnightmagic> oneblitz: Also the bitcoin-development mailing list archives; satoshi's posts in bitcointalk.
1232 2014-04-06 19:03:20 <oneblitz> Where are the btc dev mailing list archives?
1233 2014-04-06 19:03:48 <oneblitz> I'll Google it..thx
1234 2014-04-06 19:04:08 <midnightmagic> http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/ I think?
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1236 2014-04-06 19:05:04 <oneblitz> Thx
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1271 2014-04-06 19:37:23 <jiffe98> if I have a message and a signature for that message which is based on a key of low entropy is it possible to determine the key from that information alone?
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1281 2014-04-06 19:40:46 <sipa> jiffe98: it can be done with *any* message and corresponding signature
1282 2014-04-06 19:41:15 <sipa> jiffe98: it is how message signature work, by computingnthe public key that would have signed it, and comparing its hash with the claimed address
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1286 2014-04-06 19:41:49 <jiffe98> sipa: sorry I meant can you determine the private key used to sign
1287 2014-04-06 19:42:06 <shesek> jiffe98, how would that make any sense? o_O
1288 2014-04-06 19:42:30 <kazcw> A single value, considered on its own, cannot be "of low entropy". Entropy per bit is a property of a distribution.
1289 2014-04-06 19:42:51 <shesek> I mean... if you can easily brute force the private key from the private key, you could do that regardless of having a signature with that key
1290 2014-04-06 19:42:53 <jiffe98> I'm trying to determine if password based private keys is a bad idea
1291 2014-04-06 19:43:00 <HectorJ> Any "official" test vector for BIP32 testnet keys ?
1292 2014-04-06 19:43:06 <kazcw> YES they're a bad idea
1293 2014-04-06 19:43:14 <shesek> * from the public key
1294 2014-04-06 19:43:17 <shesek> it doesn't really effect anything in this regard
1295 2014-04-06 19:43:28 <kazcw> but that isn't what you asked at all
1296 2014-04-06 19:44:16 <jiffe98> sure it is, if you can determine the private key with that information then that method of security isn't valid
1297 2014-04-06 19:44:32 <shesek> kazcw, I don't think so... if you force strong passwords, require them to include personally identifiable information like an email address (the approach that Vitalik is pushing for) and use a KDF that requires some CPU work
1298 2014-04-06 19:44:33 <jiffe98> I really hate dealing with passwords
1299 2014-04-06 19:45:06 <shesek> it is pretty safe
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1301 2014-04-06 19:45:40 <shesek> and less prone to getting lost
1302 2014-04-06 19:45:44 <jiffe98> what I was hoping to do was to have a client side private key and they send me the public key for storage and verification, and any api calls I receive they sign and I can verify with their public key
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1304 2014-04-06 19:46:56 <shesek> jiffe98, what does that have to do with basing the private key on a password?
1305 2014-04-06 19:47:23 <jiffe98> because if you can intercept just one of those messages and brute force the password from that then that is a bad situation
1306 2014-04-06 19:47:43 <kazcw> shesek: I think including personally identifiable information to strengthen the randomness is a dangerous practice, since if you do that yet actually fail to provide enough randomness you have revealed additional personal information to the brute forcer. If you do it right it's fine, but why add a greater failure mode?
1307 2014-04-06 19:48:18 <shesek> kazcw, its mostly a way to force attackers to attack each account separately
1308 2014-04-06 19:48:46 <HectorJ> jiffe98 : why use Bitcoin keys for that ? Isn't there more suited asymmetric crypto algo ?
1309 2014-04-06 19:48:47 <shesek> and I would assume that a brute force attack on all possible emails AND all possible passwords isn't really doable
1310 2014-04-06 19:49:15 <kazcw> oh, relatively public information. I'd seen it suggested with stuff that was supposed to be more secret, but a non-private client-side salt makes sense
1311 2014-04-06 19:49:18 <shesek> an attacker would probably use a list of emails that are known (are very likely) to be using the service
1312 2014-04-06 19:49:31 <shesek> so he would already have the identifiable information to begin with
1313 2014-04-06 19:49:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo| 08:02:33 <aynstein> anyone have a well connected testnet node ?
1314 2014-04-06 19:49:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aynstein: still looking for one?
1315 2014-04-06 19:50:59 <shesek> kazcw, yeah, there's no reason to use something really private... just something unique. a name, phone number pr email address would work fine for that
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1317 2014-04-06 19:54:15 <sipa> jiffe98: password based private keys are a bad idea for the simple reasons that humans cannot judge entropy correctly
1318 2014-04-06 19:54:32 <sipa> jiffe98: they will think their password is safe because it is hard to guess for human
1319 2014-04-06 19:55:04 <sipa> jiffe98: unaware that their enemy is the eternity of a massive amount of computer power
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1321 2014-04-06 19:57:03 <jiffe98> sipa: that's what I'm leaning towards, only way of really using a password is with server side verification to slow down an attack on it
1322 2014-04-06 19:57:28 <venzen> sipa: are you saying that BIP38 keys are kinda weak?
1323 2014-04-06 19:58:23 <Apocalyptic> <sipa> jiffe98: password based private keys are a bad idea for the simple reasons that humans cannot judge entropy correctly // can't agree more
1324 2014-04-06 19:59:12 <sipa> venzen: bip39 you mean?
1325 2014-04-06 19:59:33 <venzen> hold on i'm checking what i mean!
1326 2014-04-06 19:59:49 <sipa> venzen: not necessarily, as they can be computer-generated, but i think bip39 is a bad idea because it encourages human generated entropy, yes
1327 2014-04-06 19:59:56 <Apocalyptic> you guys actually care about what Vitalik is pushing for N
1328 2014-04-06 19:59:58 <Apocalyptic> ?
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1330 2014-04-06 20:00:12 <sipa> what is vitalik pushing for?
1331 2014-04-06 20:00:28 <Apocalyptic> <shesek> kazcw, I don't think so... if you force strong passwords, require them to include personally identifiable information like an email address (the approach that Vitalik is pushing for) and use a KDF that requires some CPU work
1332 2014-04-06 20:00:42 <sipa> ah
1333 2014-04-06 20:00:57 <sipa> i think that just gives a false sense of security
1334 2014-04-06 20:01:01 <Apocalyptic> ^
1335 2014-04-06 20:01:07 <sipa> sure, in practice it will make things harder
1336 2014-04-06 20:01:23 <sipa> but it remains very hard to judge how strong a password really is
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1338 2014-04-06 20:01:36 <sipa> i don't see why you would bother risking that
1339 2014-04-06 20:01:47 <sipa> use a computer generated password, store the key in a trusted device
1340 2014-04-06 20:01:55 <sipa> and encrypt it with a password
1341 2014-04-06 20:02:00 <sipa> best of all worlds
1342 2014-04-06 20:02:11 <sipa> *computer generated key, i mean
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1345 2014-04-06 20:05:43 <venzen> sipa: i do mean BIP38 - as in priv keys encrypted with a passphrase for paper wallets, etc... which is a bit different than bip39's mnemonic idea... i see there are guys offering cold storage wallets imprinted on metal  -so they ask the customer for a priv key... and hence BIP38
1346 2014-04-06 20:08:17 <gmaxwell> pretty scarry, a lot of people have lost funds manually handling private keys like that.
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1350 2014-04-06 20:14:41 <venzen> gmaxwell: i feel bad for having lol'ed... but it occured to me that despite the high risk they must have chosen some lame passwords! :)
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1353 2014-04-06 20:15:44 <gmaxwell> users, including you and me, always choose lame passwords— its the law of passwords.
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1355 2014-04-06 20:16:17 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, and this is why all of my passwords are two parts
1356 2014-04-06 20:16:28 <gmaxwell> they're losing funds not through paper wallets, they lose funds due to key mishandling... sending change off to keys they delete, destroying the only copy they have of a key, etc.
1357 2014-04-06 20:16:31 <phantomcircuit> something random which i keep in a safe place and something less random that i made up
1358 2014-04-06 20:16:51 <venzen> or as sipa says, they have the "eternity of a massive amount of computer power" working against their human fallibility
1359 2014-04-06 20:17:24 <venzen> ah.. losing or destroying keys... ouch
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1361 2014-04-06 20:18:44 <gmaxwell> there have been a bunch of posts where someone imports a 'paper wallet' into multibit. sends funds, multibit sends change to the first address in the wallet as it always does... then they destroy the multibit wallet.. bye bye funds.
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1363 2014-04-06 20:18:59 <gmaxwell> or they spend via something like brainwallet and manage to send all the change to fees.
1364 2014-04-06 20:20:09 <gmaxwell> then there are things like the guy who had a great security procedure, including re-printing his QR code one a month to prevent the printout from fading ... whos basement flooded and turned the paper to pulp.
1365 2014-04-06 20:22:00 <gmaxwell> then you have the fallability of memory— which is much greater than people often think... and you have a rarely used key (data you need to use it for is on paper) which they were trying to choose a secure password for... and of course many people forget it.
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1367 2014-04-06 20:22:37 <gmaxwell> Lulled by the security they get outside of cryptography where lost passwords are always recoverable...
1368 2014-04-06 20:23:55 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol yeah i have 5BTC on a hdd i cant remember the passphrase too
1369 2014-04-06 20:24:04 <phantomcircuit> someday i shall bruteforce it
1370 2014-04-06 20:24:19 <BCB> gmaxwell, https://twitter.com/maraoz/status/452869864487911425
1371 2014-04-06 20:24:25 <tommygunner> i just had a look at my mnemonic again
1372 2014-04-06 20:24:29 <venzen> that's sad about the guy with the flooded basement...
1373 2014-04-06 20:24:36 <tommygunner> i should bury a copy in the woods
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1375 2014-04-06 20:25:14 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I've never lost BTC due to a forgotten password, because I learned that lesson before bitcoin existed. I know there are people around here who have lost more than 5 btc that way, I think people are not so public with those losses because they're embarassing.
1376 2014-04-06 20:25:39 <Apocalyptic> very true
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1379 2014-04-06 20:26:16 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, heh, well im 100% sure that it's a prefix plus a weird pattern of keys on a specific keyboard
1380 2014-04-06 20:26:20 <gmaxwell> BCB: next will he demonstrate how to shoot up maybe-heroin purchased from an online blackmarket?
1381 2014-04-06 20:26:30 <phantomcircuit> it would just require sitting there for hours trying to figure it out
1382 2014-04-06 20:26:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Someone I know from another channel (supposedly) has 160 BTC on an encrypted HD to which he has lost the key
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1384 2014-04-06 20:27:04 <BCB> gmaxwell, isn't he a bitpay guy.  I would think those guys would know better...
1385 2014-04-06 20:27:17 <venzen> phantomcircuit: that sucks... have you tried recreating the circumstances under which you created that password... or going to a hypnotherapist?
1386 2014-04-06 20:27:33 <Apocalyptic> lol
1387 2014-04-06 20:27:40 <gmaxwell> it's too attractive a bad idea, suckers in a lot of otherwise perfectly reasonable people...
1388 2014-04-06 20:27:41 <phantomcircuit> no? im sure i can figure it out i just have to sit down and work at it
1389 2014-04-06 20:28:56 <venzen> there's that special feeling - not sure if it's got a name - that you get when a password suddenly eludes you months later...
1390 2014-04-06 20:29:11 <tommygunner> bioproof an sd card and implant it in your forearm
1391 2014-04-06 20:29:37 <tommygunner> the thought of having to cut yourself open should have you remember your password
1392 2014-04-06 20:30:33 <phantomcircuit> that sounds like a bad idea
1393 2014-04-06 20:30:42 <phantomcircuit> like someone cutting your arm open bad idea
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1493 2014-04-06 21:20:06 <ProfMac> I'm reading online at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin to trace a block as it is received from submitblock.  I want to follow the process until the blocks are sent back out to other nodes.  I am reading in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/8556b0298d6b7101b063862fb4ab6b4a67dd2361/src/main.cpp#L2491 and I'm having some trouble deciding where to follow the code.  Any suggestions?
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