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  37 2014-04-07 00:57:01 <dexX7> while some are complaining about the impact of multisig transactions on the utxo, the xcp webwallet has a feature to "split coins" to create "many free outputs" https://www.biteasy.com/testnet/transactions/221acd85e4dcb320793c7baa4d1fde73bf8a53618011f81702e688e3e3af52b0 x_x
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  42 2014-04-07 01:02:35 <Luke-Jr> dexX7: XCP seems intent on harming bitcoin at this point, so this doesn't surprise me
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  45 2014-04-07 01:04:21 <dexX7> hehe. i think it's rather a bunch of somewhat creative people with misbelieves.
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  47 2014-04-07 01:05:17 <Luke-Jr> dexX7: see the discussion where jgarzik and myself tried to get them to behave sanely (ie, use OP_RETURN)
  48 2014-04-07 01:06:56 <dexX7> i'm following the thread, but as far as i remember op_return doesn't provide enough space and your latest suggestion was to use a slightly adjusted bitcoin fork
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  53 2014-04-07 01:17:29 <vetch> seems like a fair suggestion.
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  55 2014-04-07 01:17:43 <vetch> if you don't like this party, throw your own.
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  63 2014-04-07 01:25:49 <dexX7> with probably only one larger pool accepting >40 byte op_return transactions the confirmation times would be much higher
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  69 2014-04-07 01:40:05 <Luke-Jr> dexX7: Bitcoin Script supports OP_RETURN up to 500 bytes.
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  71 2014-04-07 01:40:29 <Luke-Jr> dexX7: forcing people to participate in transactions they do not wish to, is nothing short of abuse
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  82 2014-04-07 02:10:42 <warren> Hmm, I just tried to simulate a reorg on regtest.  A-B-C-D were synchronized.  A-B and C-D were disconnected from each other.  A-B generated two blocks, C-D generated three blocks.  reconnected A to C.  Aren't the three blocks from C-D supposed to replace the two blocks on A-B?
  83 2014-04-07 02:11:50 <gmaxwell> No, not until the next block on one of the subnetworks.
  84 2014-04-07 02:12:26 <gmaxwell> It might be desirable to do some more block syncing on a new connection, but we don't today, and it doesn't generally seem harmful... since it will eventually catch up.
  85 2014-04-07 02:13:42 <warren> So reconnect A and C, then make a new block on C-D?
  86 2014-04-07 02:13:49 <gmaxwell> yes.
  87 2014-04-07 02:13:54 <warren> ah thanks
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  96 2014-04-07 02:26:41 <warren> gmaxwell: hmm
  97 2014-04-07 02:26:53 <warren> gmaxwell: created another block on C-D and nothing happened on A-B
  98 2014-04-07 02:28:55 <gmaxwell> What do the logs show?
  99 2014-04-07 02:30:14 <warren> oh, it worked, just with a delay
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 273 2014-04-07 06:33:53 <brady2600>  im forking twisterd:  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/twister-dev/YzKxyHlQ6WA     I am shooting for about 5 kilobytes of data storage per transaction.  I calculated 50000 bytes MAX_BLOCK_SIZE translates to MAX_STANDARD_TX_SIZE about 4.88kb which isn't quite big enough for what I want to store.  This is a completely new genesis block , new blockchain.   Do you think I should up  from 50,000 to say around 80-90,000?
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 280 2014-04-07 06:46:11 <gmaxwell> brady2600: offtopic for here.
 281 2014-04-07 06:48:12 <brady2600> owch. just because its a derivative?  If you can't get into this here thats a loss of a major resource of people that actually can speak from authority in terms of the meta bitcoin topic in relation to things that grew out of it.
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 284 2014-04-07 06:50:27 <wumpus> this channel is narrow on purpose: everything that is related to development of the bitcoin clients (mainly the bitcoin core client) is ontopic here, the rest is off-topic
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 303 2014-04-07 07:04:02 <brady2600> wumpus: can you tell me of a place where
 304 2014-04-07 07:04:44 <brady2600> i would find this kind of concentration of bitcoin devs where what I asked might be on topic?
 305 2014-04-07 07:05:47 <wumpus> I'd suggest twister's development channel in this case, if there is one
 306 2014-04-07 07:06:17 <sipa> maybe the altcoins section on bitcoinforum
 307 2014-04-07 07:08:17 <Luke-Jr> brady2600: you're assuming we want to waste our time on this
 308 2014-04-07 07:08:45 <Luke-Jr> I don't think there's a single bitcoin dev involved in twisterd?
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 310 2014-04-07 07:09:00 <brady2600> meh sounds not very useful.  The description that was given for this room differs from the chat description aswell.. Bitcoin sends me here.. you want to send me to a place I already know isn't useful.
 311 2014-04-07 07:09:41 <brady2600> Its based off of bitcoin core, which makes those aspects relevant.
 312 2014-04-07 07:10:07 <wumpus> "bitcoin sends me here"... how,  is there now a "go to #bitcoin-dev" button in the client... ?
 313 2014-04-07 07:10:18 <Luke-Jr> brady2600: you have no right to force people to help you. if people care about twisterd, they will be in a twisterd-related channel.
 314 2014-04-07 07:10:27 <gmaxwell> brady2600: I'm not sure where to send you, but this isn't the place. Sorry.
 315 2014-04-07 07:10:40 <brady2600> the users suggested I ask here.    like: i didn't force you, you didn't have to respond.
 316 2014-04-07 07:10:41 <Luke-Jr> looks like twisterd is a one-man project by someone who I've never heard of, so probably has no bitcoin background and doesn't know what he's doing
 317 2014-04-07 07:11:07 <axilla> twister is pretty cool
 318 2014-04-07 07:11:11 <axilla> i've looked at the code.
 319 2014-04-07 07:11:20 <wumpus> this channel is *not* for everything baed on bitcoin, that's too much to keep track of these days anyway
 320 2014-04-07 07:11:24 <brady2600> i wonder how he would have been treated if he had tried to enquire?
 321 2014-04-07 07:12:15 <Luke-Jr> the same way
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 323 2014-04-07 07:12:58 <wumpus> the license *allows* you to make derivatives of the code, but it does not entitle you to any level of support from the developers to do so
 324 2014-04-07 07:13:25 <Luke-Jr> off-topic is off-topic, no matter who it is
 325 2014-04-07 07:13:31 <vetch> wumpus: I think it actually explicitly states that you don't too.
 326 2014-04-07 07:13:39 <wumpus> vetch: great
 327 2014-04-07 07:13:56 <brady2600> ok how about I approach it diffrently.  Hey guys, I want to fork bitcoin and create a new genesis block.  I want to change max_block_size  , can anyone tell me about how the proportions between that and max_block_size_gen and max)standard_tx_size can possibly cause problems?
 328 2014-04-07 07:13:59 <gmaxwell> brady2600: I was doing you a courtesy by pointing out this was the wrong place, I could have as easily just ignored you.
 329 2014-04-07 07:14:07 <Luke-Jr> brady2600: forking bitcoin is still off-topic
 330 2014-04-07 07:14:18 <brady2600> lol
 331 2014-04-07 07:14:25 <wumpus> brady2600: ... you're testing our patience
 332 2014-04-07 07:14:38 <sipa> brady2600: you have to understand: many people come here with the intention of changing some minor constant in bitcoin to create an alternative currency, without bothering to understand how the system works... that makes people here very adverse to helping in suc requests
 333 2014-04-07 07:14:56 <gmaxwell> brady2600: This is absolutely not the right place to talk about this stuff. All of us are fed up with people trying to get development support for forks, usually harbrained, and sometimes under dishonest claims, and often at the peril of future users (if there are any)
 334 2014-04-07 07:15:26 <gmaxwell> This channel is for Bitcoin, and things which are not bitcoin do not belong here.
 335 2014-04-07 07:15:43 <sipa> that's not to say that every fork is a scam or uninteresting, but such a large majority ofnthem are either (or both)
 336 2014-04-07 07:15:53 <Luke-Jr> and the more off-topic, the less people want to read/participate here
 337 2014-04-07 07:15:55 <brady2600> Well. I've essentially Identified that I'm not planning on making a coin, or messing with your particular baby.  I am trying to become more informed.  I guess that makes me an awful person.
 338 2014-04-07 07:15:56 stqism is now known as rg
 339 2014-04-07 07:16:05 rg is now known as stqism
 340 2014-04-07 07:16:25 <Luke-Jr> brady2600: read the code then
 341 2014-04-07 07:16:26 <sipa> brady2600: i will answer any question about bitcoin that is technically interesting
 342 2014-04-07 07:16:56 stqism is now known as rg
 343 2014-04-07 07:17:04 rg is now known as stqism
 344 2014-04-07 07:18:02 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 345 2014-04-07 07:18:07 <gmaxwell> brady2600: none of us have any opinion about you as a person, other than perhaps that you're seeming perhaps a bit rude by barging in here and arguing with the folks here about what the should be discussed here. It's forgivable, but please lets drop it.
 346 2014-04-07 07:19:30 blitzlightnin has joined
 347 2014-04-07 07:20:00 cadaver has joined
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 349 2014-04-07 07:20:25 <brady2600> I find it just as rude how people try to shut down other people they don't really have any need to do so.  I've always utilized my ignore in chat rooms and I've always find it strange when people find a need to resort to these things in IRC.
 350 2014-04-07 07:20:51 <brady2600> sipa: did you see my original question?
 351 2014-04-07 07:21:16 Guyver2 has quit (Quit: :))
 352 2014-04-07 07:21:30 <sipa> brady2600: yes, but i have no idea what scaling issues or economic incentives would be relevant to twister
 353 2014-04-07 07:21:41 <sipa> in any case they're even less clear than in butcoin
 354 2014-04-07 07:21:59 <brady2600> but if it helps: i have no intention of creating yet another altcoin, at least not for money purposes.
 355 2014-04-07 07:22:21 <gmaxwell> brady2600: We need to keep this channel generally on topic so that the devlopers of bitcoin software and the operators of services find it worth their time to read the backscroll; otherwise it's not useful for cordination. There are many other channels, and infinity of which if you count the ones that potentially could exist too— which would be better placess to discuss your question.
 356 2014-04-07 07:22:32 <Luke-Jr> brady2600: it doesn't help. it's off-topic here unless it's about *bitcoin*
 357 2014-04-07 07:22:52 go1111111 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 358 2014-04-07 07:23:01 <gmaxwell> This is not up for debate.
 359 2014-04-07 07:23:08 <wumpus> brady2600: because we're tring to be helpful by letting you know what is appropriate here, wouldn't it have been much more rude to just ignore you en masse?
 360 2014-04-07 07:23:39 <sipa> no, that doesn't help; i'm glad to discuss what scaling issues are relevant the block size in bitcoin though (not now exactly, though)
 361 2014-04-07 07:23:57 blitzlightnin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 362 2014-04-07 07:24:15 <wumpus> brady2600: and then, next time you do have a question about bitcoin, no one would be reading it
 363 2014-04-07 07:27:43 blitzlightnin has joined
 364 2014-04-07 07:28:13 <brady2600> lol hilarous. When i came in here no one was talking at all. night fellas.
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 370 2014-04-07 07:29:43 <Luke-Jr> I don't think he got it.
 371 2014-04-07 07:30:30 OneFixt has joined
 372 2014-04-07 07:30:32 <gmaxwell> I think it might have just been better for all if I had just +qed instantly at the front. Then I would have just been a jerk and life would have gone on.  Probably I should write up a canned explination as to why this channel should be on-topic on the wiki and then just link it. At least thats less likely to produce an extended argument.
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 377 2014-04-07 07:31:34 <sipa> yup
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 383 2014-04-07 07:32:11 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: +1
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 388 2014-04-07 07:33:21 <Luke-Jr> maybe we can script gribble to do it :x
 389 2014-04-07 07:33:25 <wumpus> well you couldn't have known he'd react like this, most people just get the clue if you tell them the normal way, but yeah documenting it better in the wiki is always good
 390 2014-04-07 07:34:20 <gmaxwell> writing now.
 391 2014-04-07 07:34:29 djcoin_ has joined
 392 2014-04-07 07:35:10 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: sure, but more understanding people are going to understand an automated system too. we could even have the bot -q after 5 minutes (and say so upfront)
 393 2014-04-07 07:35:27 go1111111 has joined
 394 2014-04-07 07:36:12 <wumpus> talking about obnoxious people, rebroad is really getting on my nerves
 395 2014-04-07 07:36:21 <sipa> haha
 396 2014-04-07 07:36:30 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: did you see his news piece? :P
 397 2014-04-07 07:36:59 <wumpus> yes
 398 2014-04-07 07:37:02 <jcorgan> Luke-Jr: link?
 399 2014-04-07 07:37:07 <sipa> he's been very annoying for a long time imho, but since recently i find he's actually contributing slightly useful stuff :)
 400 2014-04-07 07:37:30 malaimo has joined
 401 2014-04-07 07:37:42 <jcorgan> just reading the github stuff he seems annoying but somewhat right enough to dismiss out of hand
 402 2014-04-07 07:37:51 <jcorgan> to *not* dismiss out of hand
 403 2014-04-07 07:38:16 <Luke-Jr> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/03/05/bitcoin_devs_hit_by_mt_gox_collapse/
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 406 2014-04-07 07:39:29 <jcorgan> what, 12th in pull reqeusts?
 407 2014-04-07 07:39:34 <jcorgan> github comments?
 408 2014-04-07 07:39:41 <Luke-Jr> dunno how github figures it
 409 2014-04-07 07:39:43 <sipa> loi
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 411 2014-04-07 07:39:57 <wumpus> it's easy to be 12th
 412 2014-04-07 07:40:15 <jcorgan> i'm in the hundred something'th
 413 2014-04-07 07:40:44 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: no, you're 70th :D
 414 2014-04-07 07:40:51 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/graphs/contributors
 415 2014-04-07 07:41:24 cadaver has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 416 2014-04-07 07:41:32 <wumpus> the first few contributors are very active, after that it drops off very quickly, so with a few noise pulls (like change this or that log message) here and there and voila you're 12th
 417 2014-04-07 07:42:03 <sipa> rebroad is 17th in commits
 418 2014-04-07 07:43:23 <wumpus> is there an ignore option on github?
 419 2014-04-07 07:43:29 <jcorgan> ah.  i stand chastened.
 420 2014-04-07 07:43:34 venzen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 421 2014-04-07 07:44:09 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: only project-global I think
 422 2014-04-07 07:44:19 <wumpus> meh, that's too much, it's just personal
 423 2014-04-07 07:44:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: with 15 commits and 20 lines in git blame?
 424 2014-04-07 07:44:27 <gmaxwell> wumpus: no, I wish.
 425 2014-04-07 07:44:34 <sipa> gmaxwell: yup
 426 2014-04-07 07:44:45 <sipa> in number of lines added he is 50th or so
 427 2014-04-07 07:44:53 <sipa> which is still remarkable
 428 2014-04-07 07:45:06 <sipa> we have a bad bus factor :(
 429 2014-04-07 07:45:24 <jcorgan> lines added is a poor metric.  my best day ever was deleting a single line of code in gnuradio
 430 2014-04-07 07:45:30 <Luke-Jr> lol
 431 2014-04-07 07:45:47 <wumpus> yes, deleting lines of code is much better :)
 432 2014-04-07 07:45:49 <gmaxwell> end_universe(); //Is this really what we want to do here?
 433 2014-04-07 07:46:38 <sipa> vinniefalco beats me in lines deleted
 434 2014-04-07 07:46:50 <sipa> by replacing the leveldb code and adding itnagain...
 435 2014-04-07 07:46:58 venzen has joined
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 437 2014-04-07 07:47:46 <Luke-Jr> GitHub doesn't even have "lines owned in current branches"? :P
 438 2014-04-07 07:48:27 <jcorgan> my opinion of the register has hit new lows after that article
 439 2014-04-07 07:49:33 <sipa> with a few logging output changes you're surely a lewading developer of the protocol!
 440 2014-04-07 07:49:40 <sipa> *leading
 441 2014-04-07 07:51:16 ericmuyser has joined
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 443 2014-04-07 07:52:20 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: without wading through rebroad's comments.. I just want to point out that un-recursive makefiles may be problematic to splitting up the repos
 444 2014-04-07 07:52:27 <wumpus> I'm ashamed that I even made the comment about recursive makefiles
 445 2014-04-07 07:53:10 <wumpus> practically gave the guy a stick to hit us with
 446 2014-04-07 07:53:15 <gmaxwell> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin-dev
 447 2014-04-07 07:54:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: "Bitcoin-Dev IRC Channel"?
 448 2014-04-07 07:54:15 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: indeed, non-recursive makefiles have their own list of disadvantages
 449 2014-04-07 07:54:15 <sipa> wumpus: it is not even relevant, i realize now
 450 2014-04-07 07:54:36 <sipa> wumpus: even with recurwive makefiles, it should be made to work, no?
 451 2014-04-07 07:54:43 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: though they do allow 'make src/qt/bitcoin-qt'
 452 2014-04-07 07:54:58 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: then again in the first post I gave the guy a solution on how to build only the GUI
 453 2014-04-07 07:55:01 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: a phony target for bitcoin-qt might be better if that's the only issue
 454 2014-04-07 07:55:09 <wumpus> sipa: I'm sure it can be hacked around
 455 2014-04-07 07:55:13 <sipa> right
 456 2014-04-07 07:55:16 <sipa> never mind
 457 2014-04-07 07:55:27 <Luke-Jr> would be nice if 'make bitcoin-qt' did the Right Thing™ and copied it to the main dir
 458 2014-04-07 07:55:51 <wumpus> huh, no I disagree, don't copy the file
 459 2014-04-07 07:55:51 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 460 2014-04-07 07:56:05 <wumpus> just build bitcoin-qt in the qt dir
 461 2014-04-07 07:56:18 <sipa> if we're going towards fyrtger splitting up, that isn't a maintainable situation anyway
 462 2014-04-07 07:56:36 <wumpus> well the wallet split is pretty orthogonal
 463 2014-04-07 07:57:07 <wumpus> both bitcoind and bitcoin-qt can work with and without the wallet
 464 2014-04-07 07:57:12 topynate has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 465 2014-04-07 07:57:32 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: why not copy it? at least a symlink.. it's standard for the output to be in the main dir
 466 2014-04-07 07:57:47 <Luke-Jr> sipa: quite possible to have autoconf make targets for all subdirectories or such
 467 2014-04-07 07:57:49 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: that's not in any standard that I know
 468 2014-04-07 07:58:22 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it's the case with 95% of autotools-based projects
 469 2014-04-07 07:58:34 go1111111 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 470 2014-04-07 07:58:50 <wumpus> in any case, it's certainly possible to solve it, my annoyance is that rebroad keeps throwing around with issues that can be perfectly worked around and claims they are oh so important
 471 2014-04-07 07:59:13 <gmaxwell> I was certantly surprised at the qt binary ending up under src/qt and not src/ the first time.
 472 2014-04-07 07:59:17 <wumpus> as if there are not enough serious issues
 473 2014-04-07 07:59:29 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yea, he's a pain to deal with and has driven me up the wall many times.
 474 2014-04-07 07:59:41 <gmaxwell> He's also found a few interesting bugs here and there.
 475 2014-04-07 08:00:05 <gmaxwell> (and a bunch more bogus things which were good behaviors he dogmatically insisted were bugs)
 476 2014-04-07 08:00:05 <wumpus> well it makes sense to me to build bitcoin-qt in the src/qt dir, together with its source files, but seems I'm alone in that
 477 2014-04-07 08:00:10 <sipa> his bad internet connection actually does make for an interesting test case
 478 2014-04-07 08:00:24 <wumpus> before the autotools switch it was strange too: bitcoin-qt was built in the project root, bitcoind awas built in src
 479 2014-04-07 08:00:27 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it may or may not make sense, it still surprised me. :)
 480 2014-04-07 08:00:32 <jcorgan> but...he is one of the worlds top cryptocurrency developers!
 481 2014-04-07 08:00:33 hearn has joined
 482 2014-04-07 08:00:36 <Luke-Jr> sipa: we can just ship BlueMatt off to Thailand or wherever he is.. :P
 483 2014-04-07 08:00:42 <sipa> wut?
 484 2014-04-07 08:00:46 <sipa> ah
 485 2014-04-07 08:01:20 blitzlightnin has joined
 486 2014-04-07 08:01:38 <gmaxwell> would be a weird grant request "I want XXYZ bitcoin to pay for running bitcoin on a satellite terminal in order to simulate an adverse network enviroment."
 487 2014-04-07 08:01:42 tarantillo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 489 2014-04-07 08:02:23 <gmaxwell> though on that note there are nice dummynet simulators for things like lossy connectivity, if someone is keeping a QA project dream list having a set of nodes shimmed up with that might be a good thing.
 490 2014-04-07 08:02:29 <wumpus> minimum requirements for running a bitcoin node
 491 2014-04-07 08:02:33 <wumpus> would be better IMO :p
 492 2014-04-07 08:02:51 <jcorgan> s/bitcoin node/network latency sensitive application/
 493 2014-04-07 08:03:26 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: then the register will print "Bitcoin developers ban Thailand from Bitcoin network"
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 497 2014-04-07 08:03:42 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: hah
 498 2014-04-07 08:03:44 <gmaxwell> wumpus: orthorgonal; it's not a question of requirements when the lossy network is revealing actual inadequacies in the code. (which might be triggerable under other cases but are more obvious with the lossy network)
 499 2014-04-07 08:04:29 damethos has joined
 500 2014-04-07 08:04:40 <sipa> gmaxwell: damn i just realize that headers-first will remove orphan blocks logic for the code... so there will be no more reason to claim that calling inactive branches orohans is wrong :(
 501 2014-04-07 08:04:46 alecalve has joined
 502 2014-04-07 08:04:52 <wumpus> gmaxwell: as far as I know, none of the internet protocols really copes with lossy networks well, I had lots of issues with even ssh and https on lossy connections
 503 2014-04-07 08:05:00 <sipa> gmaxwell: i see no solution but to give up on that project
 504 2014-04-07 08:05:42 <vetch> gmaxwell: even OSX has a developer panel that simulates a variety of bad network conditions. dropped packets, latency, with different settings to simulate different environments.
 505 2014-04-07 08:05:46 <Luke-Jr> sipa: English is still a reason!
 506 2014-04-07 08:05:57 blitzlightnin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 507 2014-04-07 08:06:06 <vetch> gmaxwell: cheaper than a satellite  anyway.
 508 2014-04-07 08:06:11 <gmaxwell> wumpus: sure, but there is no particular reason we should do excessively poorly (e.g. getting stuck and not syncing blocks at all, ever, which is the kind of issue rebroad's busted connection has turned up in the past). Keep in mind that lossy network also means DDOS attacked network. :)
 509 2014-04-07 08:06:13 <wumpus> gmaxwell: (or plain TCP, for that matter)
 510 2014-04-07 08:06:27 <Luke-Jr> vetch: I think it was just an excuse to get a grant for a sat (and a joke)
 511 2014-04-07 08:06:33 s0le has joined
 512 2014-04-07 08:06:48 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: time to upgrade to UDP!
 513 2014-04-07 08:06:54 <sipa> sctp
 514 2014-04-07 08:06:57 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes or one of the fancy new ones
 515 2014-04-07 08:06:59 <gmaxwell> vetch: as I mentioned linux has dummynet (and there are even tools that will replay real world loss and delay patterns)
 516 2014-04-07 08:07:12 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: they're all built on top of UDP
 517 2014-04-07 08:07:17 <gmaxwell> <3 sctp.
 518 2014-04-07 08:07:17 <jcorgan> Luke-Jr: surely you have define some variant called "tonal UDP"
 519 2014-04-07 08:07:32 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: why? IP is already tonal.ish.
 520 2014-04-07 08:07:39 <Luke-Jr> moreso than decimal anyway
 521 2014-04-07 08:07:48 <jcorgan> (i'm going to regret that comment)
 522 2014-04-07 08:08:11 nickler has joined
 523 2014-04-07 08:08:13 <vetch> gmaxwell: I was making the comment that it's not inaccessible for most users to try on software as well. point thoroughly taken.
 524 2014-04-07 08:08:14 milanito has joined
 525 2014-04-07 08:09:04 <gmaxwell> in any case, until headers first gets deployed I don't think any network behavior questions are interesting, we have just too many known warts in the sync logic as it is.
 526 2014-04-07 08:09:21 <gmaxwell> It's hardly operable for IBD on first world multi-megabit broadband. :)
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 530 2014-04-07 08:10:12 <wumpus> indeed
 531 2014-04-07 08:10:46 <wumpus> armory already downloads the initial block chain using bittorrent automatically
 532 2014-04-07 08:10:57 topynate has joined
 533 2014-04-07 08:11:48 <gmaxwell> Sipa's original full headers first patch is a lot faster than bittorrent when cranked up... it's nice, ignoring the not really being sure if it completely works in all cases part.
 534 2014-04-07 08:11:49 <vetch> shouldn't a bitcoin node with headers first be just as fast as BitTorrent?
 535 2014-04-07 08:12:51 <gmaxwell> vetch: much faster, since it can handle the data in logical units, and has a _lot_ of nodes to pull from that have the complete data set.
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 555 2014-04-07 08:33:48 <venzen> i'm trying to compile bitcoind (--without-gui) with static libs (source from GitHub tag 0.9.0), where would be the correct place in the Makefile to specify '-static'? Do I need to specify '-static' for each library (eg. BOOST_CPPFLAGS) ?
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 560 2014-04-07 08:40:15 <wumpus> venzen: it works as done in this gitian script https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3914/files
 561 2014-04-07 08:41:11 <wumpus> (putting static in CPPFLAGS/LDFLAGS is a start, but not enough, for example, you also need to disable -pie if you want to build fully static and still produce a valid executable)
 562 2014-04-07 08:42:23 <venzen> wumpus: thank you
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 656 2014-04-07 09:55:16 <jinglebells> can someone tell me what combination of rpc calls the receive tab makes in the qt client to display those addresses?
 657 2014-04-07 09:55:41 <sipa> none
 658 2014-04-07 09:56:00 <jinglebells> then how does it display those those addresses?
 659 2014-04-07 09:56:00 Insti has joined
 660 2014-04-07 09:56:17 <sipa> by not using rpc
 661 2014-04-07 09:56:29 <sipa> rpc and the gui are two independent interface into the core
 662 2014-04-07 09:56:47 <jinglebells> i see.
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 664 2014-04-07 09:57:09 <jinglebells> is there some way that i could use rpc to get the same results?
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 666 2014-04-07 09:57:49 <sipa> maybe; it's not really intended to implement a gui on top of
 667 2014-04-07 09:57:56 <sipa> more to automate transactions
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 670 2014-04-07 09:59:04 <jinglebells> ya i understand. but i generated a bunch of addresses and i would just like to be able to access them again
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 673 2014-04-07 09:59:44 <wumpus> it's better to just generate new ones, address are really cheap, no need to conserve them
 674 2014-04-07 09:59:49 dansmith is now known as dansmith_btc
 675 2014-04-07 10:01:14 <jinglebells> ya i understand that also.
 676 2014-04-07 10:01:38 <jinglebells> i labled a few of the addrs and the ones with non empty labels i can access
 677 2014-04-07 10:02:11 <jinglebells> but the ones with empty labels all become associated with one account as the "" (empty) account
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 691 2014-04-07 10:15:12 <sixtyfourmeg> not sure about the MPOS thing the wallet cracker saved my password - http://robotrocketman.wordpress.com/
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 704 2014-04-07 10:23:51 <venzen> wumpus: so by disabling hardening and passing -static in the Makefile I get a static build, but it gives a warning: Using 'getaddrinfo' in statically linked applications requires at runtime the shared libraries from the glibc version used for linking ....  and then complains about undefined references in  glibc libcrypto.a ... any ideas? I have the libcrypto-dev package installed
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 707 2014-04-07 10:27:25 <gjs278> venzen: I always see getaddrinfo when doing a static build
 708 2014-04-07 10:27:30 <gjs278> or basically any software
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 710 2014-04-07 10:28:08 <venzen> gjs278: so you're saying just ignore it and the static binary is usable?
 711 2014-04-07 10:28:17 <gjs278> ignore it
 712 2014-04-07 10:28:40 <venzen> ok (what's your address, btw)... :D
 713 2014-04-07 10:28:45 <Luke-Jr> venzen: usable on platforms with at least the same glibc version
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 717 2014-04-07 10:29:04 <venzen> Luke-Jr: thanks - that happens to be the case
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 719 2014-04-07 10:29:48 <gjs278> the glibc libcrypto.a I can't be sure of, you may need another flag passed to let it know to use the static libs from your libcrypto-dev (assuming it's making them)
 720 2014-04-07 10:30:17 <gjs278> I've had to do stuff like -static and -static-libstdc++
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 723 2014-04-07 10:33:33 <venzen> let me try again by passing the path to libcrypto.a via CRYPTO_CFLAGS
 724 2014-04-07 10:33:43 <venzen> or perhaps CRYPTO_LIBS
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 730 2014-04-07 10:50:09 <venzen> @#^^$!
 731 2014-04-07 10:50:18 <Luke-Jr> that's what she said
 732 2014-04-07 10:50:26 <venzen> hehe
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 738 2014-04-07 10:57:26 <wumpus> venzen: yes, you get that warning, no way around taht
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 740 2014-04-07 10:59:21 <wumpus> there are subtle issues with glibc and static linking (do some googling of you want to know the details), and it warns you of those; in my experience it doesn't give problems
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 742 2014-04-07 11:00:30 <venzen> wumpus: yeah, as you said above, no way around it -  but i'm still not getting a bitcoind binary compiled... the .o file is there and some 7kb of a.out... but no joy
 743 2014-04-07 11:01:42 <wumpus> any errors in make? you can try make V=1 to see more details
 744 2014-04-07 11:04:05 <wumpus> alternatively, use the gitian build with the aforementioned descriptor, the resulting static executables have been tested on many platforms
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 746 2014-04-07 11:04:57 <venzen> wumpus: when -lcrypto is used in the Makefile, I get the following error (repeated for several zlib fns):  /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libcrypto.a(c_zlib.o): In function `bio_zlib_free':
 747 2014-04-07 11:05:21 c0rw1n_ is now known as c0rw|away
 748 2014-04-07 11:06:15 <venzen> i think your suggestion is the best option -  known to work, and all that - my ubuntu 12.04 has become a monster over the years
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 767 2014-04-07 11:27:05 <topynate> i read https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/5044482 which states the main cost to a miner in accepting a transaction into a block is the increased chance of making an orphaned block due to longer propagation time. why not make relays delay block propagation by default, such that the time to propagate is independent of the number of txs in a block?
 768 2014-04-07 11:27:35 <sipa> topynate: that would hurt the network even more
 769 2014-04-07 11:27:48 <sipa> as an attacker wouldn't suffer from such artificial delays
 770 2014-04-07 11:29:34 <phantomcircuit> topynate, that's only true for shitty pools that dont have enough bandwidth...
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 772 2014-04-07 11:30:31 <hearn> topynate: basically someone needs to build some good network profiling tools and make some nice charts showing where the time goes in block propagation
 773 2014-04-07 11:30:36 <hearn> so we know what to optimise
 774 2014-04-07 11:31:23 <phantomcircuit> hearn, it's fairly obvious... it's the process then relay nature of the gossip network
 775 2014-04-07 11:31:39 <phantomcircuit> if you tell 8 peers they dont forward it to anybody until they have 100% verified the block
 776 2014-04-07 11:31:53 <phantomcircuit> smaller blocks mean faster verification
 777 2014-04-07 11:32:00 <hearn> performance is tricky. i saw too many people screw up thinking the bottleneck was “obvious"
 778 2014-04-07 11:32:01 <phantomcircuit> otoh send the block to 4k peers
 779 2014-04-07 11:32:11 <hearn> so i’d still like to see profiles showing where the time goes
 780 2014-04-07 11:32:25 <phantomcircuit> hearn, yeah except this isn't a simple profile
 781 2014-04-07 11:32:32 <hearn> sure, that’s why i said we need new tools too :)
 782 2014-04-07 11:32:36 <phantomcircuit> you're profiling the performance of the network as a whole
 783 2014-04-07 11:32:46 <hearn> the Tor guys have some quite good stuff
 784 2014-04-07 11:33:06 <phantomcircuit> it's really not the same since you cant even connect to probably 80% of nodes
 785 2014-04-07 11:34:50 <airbreather> At one point I remember seeing a webpage that displayed propagation statistics
 786 2014-04-07 11:35:06 <airbreather> it wasn't too long ago, but I seem to have lost the link
 787 2014-04-07 11:35:30 <Apocalyptic> that was likely not propagation stat
 788 2014-04-07 11:35:37 <Apocalyptic> but some other statistics
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 790 2014-04-07 11:35:51 <sipa> probably mempool/size/age/inclusion
 791 2014-04-07 11:36:00 <sipa> of transactions in blocks
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 793 2014-04-07 11:36:14 <airbreather> It showed the average time for "inv" messages to show up from 50%, 80%, and 95% of that node's peers
 794 2014-04-07 11:36:16 <Luke-Jr> [11:27:54] <phantomcircuit> topynate, that's only true for shitty pools that dont have enough bandwidth… <-- no, that's always true..
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 796 2014-04-07 11:37:02 <Luke-Jr> obvious improvement is to relay as soon as you check the header POW..
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 799 2014-04-07 11:37:47 <Apocalyptic> doesn't sound like a good idea Luke
 800 2014-04-07 11:37:51 <airbreather> http://bitcoinstats.com/network/propagation/ found it
 801 2014-04-07 11:38:03 <hearn> yes that’s a really good start
 802 2014-04-07 11:38:17 <Luke-Jr> Apocalyptic: it is.
 803 2014-04-07 11:38:34 <sipa> if you assome the receiver will check it anyway, it is
 804 2014-04-07 11:38:36 <hearn> Luke-Jr: assuming the bottleneck is the CPU time of processing the block. If it’s bandwidth, then that would make no difference.
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 807 2014-04-07 11:38:56 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, the delay if you have the bandwidth to push the full block out to every connectable peer is irrelevant
 808 2014-04-07 11:38:58 <Luke-Jr> hearn: you can't eliminate the bandwidth
 809 2014-04-07 11:38:58 <sipa> maybe an opt-in flag where a peer can request immediate forwarding from you makes sense
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 811 2014-04-07 11:39:08 <phantomcircuit> as any other block coming at the same time would be processed after the first block
 812 2014-04-07 11:39:14 <hearn> well, that’s what the full-match bloom ideas were about
 813 2014-04-07 11:39:16 <hearn> tricky though they are
 814 2014-04-07 11:39:24 <sipa> hearn: they have other problems
 815 2014-04-07 11:39:53 <hearn> i know you tried it and it was more complicated than just setting the filter. but it should be possible to synchronise state closely enough to make it work, imo
 816 2014-04-07 11:39:56 <sipa> hearn: see my comments here: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/9603614
 817 2014-04-07 11:39:58 <hearn> may well require more code
 818 2014-04-07 11:40:00 <hearn> yes
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 821 2014-04-07 11:40:31 <hearn> something else it’d be good to analyse is why cdeckers propagation page shows days when block 90%ile is 120 seconds
 822 2014-04-07 11:40:42 <phantomcircuit> shrug
 823 2014-04-07 11:41:01 <phantomcircuit> i just push the full block out to every available peer from some big fat pipes
 824 2014-04-07 11:41:33 <hearn> yes but that makes running mining nodes more expensive and more centralised again
 825 2014-04-07 11:41:53 <phantomcircuit> hearn, you can also use BlueMatt's relay network
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 827 2014-04-07 11:42:14 <hearn> sipa: as you see i replied on that thread ...
 828 2014-04-07 11:42:20 <phantomcircuit> i happen to have the resources to be ridiculous but not everybody has to be
 829 2014-04-07 11:43:10 <sipa> hearn: yeah, i see it
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 831 2014-04-07 11:43:21 <sipa> hearn: btw, i haven't seen any noticable drop in available nodes
 832 2014-04-07 11:43:30 <hearn> huh. i just noticed my node stopped
 833 2014-04-07 11:43:32 <hearn> i don’t remember doing that
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 835 2014-04-07 11:43:57 <sipa> still around 6000ish, which is the highest i've seen (but it has been around that number for a while)
 836 2014-04-07 11:44:16 <hearn> the last bitcoind command in my shell history is starting it up
 837 2014-04-07 11:44:21 <sipa> OOM?
 838 2014-04-07 11:44:23 <hearn> no
 839 2014-04-07 11:44:28 <hearn> the logs indicate a “normal” shutdown
 840 2014-04-07 11:44:39 <hearn> there aren’t any situations in which bitcoind will ever shut itself down, outside of a bad startup, are there
 841 2014-04-07 11:44:45 <sipa> no
 842 2014-04-07 11:44:59 <hearn> i wish we had like Tor, where some volunteers are basically tor-sre
 843 2014-04-07 11:45:20 <sipa> well, in case of some errors, it will shut down
 844 2014-04-07 11:45:23 <sipa> like out of disk
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 846 2014-04-07 11:46:12 <hearn> i have plenty of disk. perhaps i did shut it down and just don’t remember. sometimes i run experimental code on this node
 847 2014-04-07 11:46:17 * hearn rebuilds it to 0.9 and restarts it
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 850 2014-04-07 11:47:04 <Apocalyptic> hearn, someone reported a segfault in the network handling part some time ago
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 852 2014-04-07 11:47:19 <hearn> yeah, but i don’t see that. the last log lines are the shutdown sequence
 853 2014-04-07 11:47:20 <sipa> Apocalyptic: really? haven't seen that
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 855 2014-04-07 11:48:07 <Apocalyptic> yes sipa, not sure he posted on github about it though
 856 2014-04-07 11:48:27 * sipa would like to encourage anyone who sees such problems reported to forward people to github
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 862 2014-04-07 11:51:10 <phantomcircuit> hearn, out of disk
 863 2014-04-07 11:51:27 <phantomcircuit> hearn, check dmesg?
 864 2014-04-07 11:51:30 <hearn> yes, but i did not run out of disk space, and besides, that’d be logged wouldn’t it
 865 2014-04-07 11:51:36 <hearn> i suspect a brain fault more than a server fault
 866 2014-04-07 11:52:17 <phantomcircuit> hearn, bitcoind crashes under heavy rpc load still in weird ways
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 868 2014-04-07 11:52:26 <hearn> no RPC load here
 869 2014-04-07 11:52:28 <phantomcircuit> but i assume you're not doing that
 870 2014-04-07 11:53:07 <axilla> Morning all, i'm wanting to get involved with bitcoin projects and focus my energy on building things for bitcoin.  Where is a good place to start with the protocol and learning how to work with it?
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 873 2014-04-07 11:55:41 <tommygunner> http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
 874 2014-04-07 11:55:44 ning has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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 876 2014-04-07 11:57:51 <sipa> and bitcoin.it
 877 2014-04-07 11:57:56 <sipa> and bitcoin.stackexchange.com
 878 2014-04-07 11:58:02 <sipa> and github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
 879 2014-04-07 11:58:03 <wumpus> also http://bitcoindev.us.to/en/developer-guide
 880 2014-04-07 11:58:08 <sipa> oh yes!
 881 2014-04-07 11:58:09 <axilla> thanks a lot
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 886 2014-04-07 12:01:42 <hearn> axilla: if you’re interested in working on the dev guide there’s a specific mailing list for that
 887 2014-04-07 12:02:08 <axilla> i'm interested in figuring out the actual workings of the protocol so I can work with it.
 888 2014-04-07 12:02:50 <axilla> i'm a develpper, but crypto is not something i've ever thought about
 889 2014-04-07 12:02:53 ning_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 890 2014-04-07 12:03:14 <axilla> I just got laid off last friday and instead of jumping back into a shitty corporate job or something, I want to work on bitcoin
 891 2014-04-07 12:03:17 <bedeho> axilla: Im kind of in the same position my self, I found that the best way is to follow the bitcoin.it wiki, and to just ask lots of questions on here, people like sipa and wumpus are very helpful
 892 2014-04-07 12:03:37 <axilla> I'm a large holder, I feel i'm a great developer, and it's in my best interest to help push bitcoin forward as far as i can.
 893 2014-04-07 12:03:47 <sipa> axilla: cool!
 894 2014-04-07 12:03:51 <bedeho> axilla: also, if you want to learn crypto (as I am presently doing), there is a great course on coursera going now, which gives solid intro to crypto
 895 2014-04-07 12:04:19 <axilla> bedeho: i'm gonna join up with that.
 896 2014-04-07 12:04:39 <bedeho> axilla: https://www.coursera.org/course/crypto
 897 2014-04-07 12:05:12 <bedeho> the first part now is mostly on symmetric key methods, which is very easy to get into, and then the second part will be on public key stuff, as well as signatures
 898 2014-04-07 12:05:29 <axilla> great this is awesome
 899 2014-04-07 12:05:29 <bedeho> the lecturer has explicitly mentioned going into crypto currencies in future lectures
 900 2014-04-07 12:05:34 <sipa> it doesn't have EC stuff though
 901 2014-04-07 12:05:48 <bedeho> sipa: second part should have it
 902 2014-04-07 12:06:00 <bedeho> pretty sure I saw it on there
 903 2014-04-07 12:06:37 <axilla> i've got quite a bit of experience working with protocols like SIP
 904 2014-04-07 12:06:45 <axilla> as in my previous work I did voice engineering
 905 2014-04-07 12:06:56 <sipa> bedeho: i've been waiting for the second part for 2 years :p
 906 2014-04-07 12:07:57 <bedeho> oh, I see, well it looks good, all sorts of jedi topics on there: EC, Zero knowledge proofs, homeomorphic stuff
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 911 2014-04-07 12:09:51 <axilla> bedeho: is there any specific language the programming assignments must be completed in?
 912 2014-04-07 12:09:59 <bedeho> Since we are on the topic, there is a spesific course on security going later this year, it looks very solid, Im signed up, but it costs like $40, however it has all the right topics in there (for me)
 913 2014-04-07 12:10:00 <bedeho> https://www.coursera.org/specialization/cybersecurity/7?utm_medium=dashboard
 914 2014-04-07 12:10:27 <axilla> are coursera certs worth anything?
 915 2014-04-07 12:10:40 <axilla> or do employeers laugh when they see a cert from coursera
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 917 2014-04-07 12:11:12 <todam00n> does bitcoind broadcast orphan blocks?
 918 2014-04-07 12:11:25 <todam00n> relay*
 919 2014-04-07 12:11:27 <sipa> todam00n: define orphan blocks
 920 2014-04-07 12:11:40 <sipa> actually, the answer is no, in both meanings of the word
 921 2014-04-07 12:11:41 phantomspark has joined
 922 2014-04-07 12:11:41 <todam00n> blocks that are not connected to its main chain
 923 2014-04-07 12:11:44 <bedeho> axilla: I dont think most employers outside high tech are really aware of it, so Im not doing it for the signaling value, doing it since it looks good and worth paying for
 924 2014-04-07 12:11:44 <hearn> axilla: reading the dev guide might be a good place to start, if you want to learn the workings
 925 2014-04-07 12:11:51 <hearn> axilla: if you find issues or ways to improve it, you can file bugs
 926 2014-04-07 12:12:04 <axilla> bedeho: i was just curious.
 927 2014-04-07 12:12:08 <todam00n> sipa: ok thanks
 928 2014-04-07 12:12:27 <axilla> hearn: yea i'm working through it now, thanks so much!  I will definatley help out if i come across something.
 929 2014-04-07 12:17:16 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 930 2014-04-07 12:17:24 <todam00n> during the initial block sync, does bitcoind connect to only one peer or does it divide the load between all connected peers?
 931 2014-04-07 12:17:41 <sipa> neither
 932 2014-04-07 12:17:42 <venzen> i think your suggestion is the best option -  known to work, and all that - my ubuntu 12.04 has become a monster over the years
 933 2014-04-07 12:17:50 <sipa> it connects to many, but only actually downloads from one
 934 2014-04-07 12:17:51 <venzen> oops
 935 2014-04-07 12:17:56 <todam00n> sipa: ok
 936 2014-04-07 12:18:03 <todam00n> that's what i meant
 937 2014-04-07 12:18:04 <todam00n> thanks
 938 2014-04-07 12:18:56 checkerx has joined
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 940 2014-04-07 12:20:34 <checkerx> http://goo.gl/nhNFvB
 941 2014-04-07 12:21:16 Lao_Ban_ has joined
 942 2014-04-07 12:21:31 <sipa> checkerx: not here
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 945 2014-04-07 12:24:51 <axilla> so is it safe to say that a Merkle Tree is kind of like a flattened array of data?
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 962 2014-04-07 12:44:38 <shamoons> is is accurate to say that an address is just the public key?
 963 2014-04-07 12:45:10 <sipa> an address is a shorthand for a specific scriptPubKey
 964 2014-04-07 12:45:25 <sipa> scriptPubKeys are the public keys of the bitcoin crypto system
 965 2014-04-07 12:45:31 eristisk has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 966 2014-04-07 12:45:31 <sipa> they're not just EC public keys though
 967 2014-04-07 12:45:51 <shamoons> okay, got it
 968 2014-04-07 12:45:51 <shamoons> thanks
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 972 2014-04-07 12:51:38 <axilla> arrrgh
 973 2014-04-07 12:51:41 <axilla> verizon is down
 974 2014-04-07 12:51:45 <axilla> in my area
 975 2014-04-07 12:52:28 <checkerx> i want bitcoin~
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 977 2014-04-07 12:52:36 <axilla> wrong channel for that I think.
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 979 2014-04-07 12:54:46 <checkerx> http://goo.gl/nhNFvB
 980 2014-04-07 12:54:58 <Luke-Jr> sipa: so much for opacity :x
 981 2014-04-07 12:55:13 ericmuyser has joined
 982 2014-04-07 12:56:08 <sipa> checkerx: second warning. not here
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 986 2014-04-07 12:57:59 <axilla> not clicking those links
 987 2014-04-07 12:58:01 <axilla> lol
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 989 2014-04-07 12:58:48 <Apocalyptic> why does the walletpassphrase RCP call require the passphrase to be type as a command line argument, isn't that insecure as /proc can reveal such info to other users on the machine ?
 990 2014-04-07 12:59:14 <sipa> Apocalyptic: the RPC call doesn't require it being passed as a command line option
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 993 2014-04-07 12:59:26 <sipa> Apocalyptic: only if you use the command-line interface tool (which is mostly for testing)
 994 2014-04-07 12:59:32 <sipa> it's just a protocol
 995 2014-04-07 12:59:41 <Apocalyptic> I see
 996 2014-04-07 13:01:11 <vetch> sipa: I seriously wonder how many people do that in production. I bet it's more than anybody would
 997 2014-04-07 13:01:13 <vetch> like
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1006 2014-04-07 13:05:45 <wumpus> Apocalyptic: use the script in contrib/bitrpc.py, it allows typing the password instead
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1022 2014-04-07 13:24:33 <venzen> the insallation instructions for python-jsonrpc are here: http://json-rpc.org/wiki/python-json-rpc
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1032 2014-04-07 13:32:48 <gpmnlxdw> Hi, I create an transaction, 0.0003011฿ -> 0.0002011฿ + 0.0001฿, but got code -22
1033 2014-04-07 13:32:55 <gpmnlxdw>  ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
1034 2014-04-07 13:33:08 <gpmnlxdw> I suppose it is not so small to reject ......
1035 2014-04-07 13:33:13 <gpmnlxdw> any sugguestion?
1036 2014-04-07 13:33:47 lclc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1037 2014-04-07 13:34:07 <sipa> which api?
1038 2014-04-07 13:34:13 <gpmnlxdw> sendrawtransaction
1039 2014-04-07 13:34:18 <gpmnlxdw> it is a multisig
1040 2014-04-07 13:34:32 <gpmnlxdw> sendrawtransaction 0100000002c253dcd66d86a203f06a173527090d29d51101b509c906ec8e7617996c4716f700000000fc0047304402205de7d0ac0a49dbd63fb67dd1f211f2acb0715bfad2b563e04b4d53831f131153022064c59c67529f5121046ccc0cb24930da5cacfa5764f5caa3db3d55600586f81e0147304402200a374994ecdd18de53d389801ed224f6cda6e0be99f18cbb250c52f704184838022014f9b2b0f3a016743151f6aa3587647f9d168fe9078182a0dfb207bcdd150039014c69522102f637d58ccf8cca451a7c439ddb24c12fc08382dff1870c1
1041 2014-04-07 13:34:32 <gpmnlxdw> d2d0a46676c24c995210363bdf25f91baea5d88579e6416cfe13037a764681b8b5533945a6094c3b01a442102227ce96d0e36c546514dd50aca46ed80702cdc16f61636d52bc6dbc50f1fdfab53aeffffffff45140099501d392bf59a4f5cc261bdba6970066f53f1ff3018dc7e44ef41e48301000000fdfd0000483045022100fdfecc49e83af039fe3b570c937fd27b7bd49b4daf38bc614cfc77194546f842022001c9a6d9432260e1ee20d26c3335763c79b2b183436cd657368c9fc4f24244150147304402201b2cd8c07e50b9b5e7a15c7aa2688504725e4a82133861161
1042 2014-04-07 13:34:33 <gpmnlxdw> 660e8de2c82f10d02200435358dc9ff954f9428be5d95601ab4649485825ef4695c100eaee5715ec773014c69522102f637d58ccf8cca451a7c439ddb24c12fc08382dff1870c1d2d0a46676c24c995210363bdf25f91baea5d88579e6416cfe13037a764681b8b5533945a6094c3b01a442102227ce96d0e36c546514dd50aca46ed80702cdc16f61636d52bc6dbc50f1fdfab53aeffffffff018e4e0000000000001976a914600a47a134666a2e8e87858f99fb2cc7dd57e84488ac00000000
1043 2014-04-07 13:34:38 <gpmnlxdw> I have signed it
1044 2014-04-07 13:34:56 <kinlo> gpmnlxdw: you'd better not spam that on the channel
1045 2014-04-07 13:35:38 spinza has quit (Disconnected by services)
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1047 2014-04-07 13:35:39 <gpmnlxdw> oh sorry to flush the screen .......
1048 2014-04-07 13:36:02 <kinlo> you'd better use a pastebin with the decoded message
1049 2014-04-07 13:36:21 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1050 2014-04-07 13:37:30 <Apocalyptic> wumpus, thanks for the tip
1051 2014-04-07 13:37:32 greenspa has joined
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1055 2014-04-07 13:39:32 <axilla> is there in existance a decentralized mixing service?
1056 2014-04-07 13:39:41 Lao_Ban_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1057 2014-04-07 13:39:44 greenspa has joined
1058 2014-04-07 13:40:00 jumpnmove has joined
1059 2014-04-07 13:40:12 <axilla> on clear net
1060 2014-04-07 13:44:26 <andytoshi> axilla: i have a service which is weakly trustless..you have to trust me not to reveal the mix, but otoh i can't steal money
1061 2014-04-07 13:44:32 <andytoshi> ;;cjs
1062 2014-04-07 13:44:33 <gribble> Coinjoin Status: There is no currently open session. Visit https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/ or http://xnpjsvp7crbzlj3w.onion/ to start one.
1063 2014-04-07 13:44:42 Lao_Ban_ has joined
1064 2014-04-07 13:44:53 <andytoshi> oh, i thought this was #bitcoin, sorry. this convo belongs there
1065 2014-04-07 13:45:19 <axilla> i was asking for development purposes.
1066 2014-04-07 13:45:48 kermit has joined
1067 2014-04-07 13:46:05 <Happzz> axilla just deposit to some site like primedice, wait a while, and then withdraw to another address
1068 2014-04-07 13:46:24 <axilla> Happzz no thanks thats not even close to what i'm getting at
1069 2014-04-07 13:46:25 <Happzz> it'll come back from other addresses, minus the 0.0001 tx fee
1070 2014-04-07 13:46:27 <axilla> i dont want to mix my coins
1071 2014-04-07 13:46:32 <andytoshi> axilla: ok, that site links to a bitcointalk thread which describes coinjoin, which acts similarly to mixing. internally the site uses https://github.com/apoelstra/coinjoin
1072 2014-04-07 13:46:42 <axilla> i want to build a decentralized mixing service and release it into the wild.
1073 2014-04-07 13:46:44 <andytoshi> Happzz: #bitcoin, please. and THERE ARE NO FROM ADDRESSES
1074 2014-04-07 13:46:53 <Apocalyptic> ^
1075 2014-04-07 13:47:04 <Happzz> inputs. inputs. you give inputs and get other inputs. don't kill me
1076 2014-04-07 13:47:16 <axilla> i'm looking for examples or whitepapers, etc of methods people have done or if its already been done not bother with it.
1077 2014-04-07 13:47:18 <todam00n> is there a p2p command that will send me the height of his blockchain?
1078 2014-04-07 13:47:30 <Happzz> i dont dont get the logic behind the inputs and not address terminology
1079 2014-04-07 13:47:30 <andytoshi> axilla: check out the coinjoin thread linked to from                           | http://xnpjsvp7crbzlj3w.onion/ to start one.                                                                     │ ahmed_
1080 2014-04-07 13:47:34 <sipa> todam00n: no, but you can ask for the headers another node has
1081 2014-04-07 13:47:37 <andytoshi> linked to from https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/
1082 2014-04-07 13:47:38 <axilla> thanks
1083 2014-04-07 13:47:40 <gpmnlxdw> Hi guys, as I remember, the min amount is 0.0001$, is it? thanks!
1084 2014-04-07 13:47:40 disident has joined
1085 2014-04-07 13:47:49 <gpmnlxdw> 0.0001btc
1086 2014-04-07 13:47:51 <Happzz> gpmnlxdw min amount for what
1087 2014-04-07 13:47:57 <sipa> todam00n: also, the height is mentioned in the version message
1088 2014-04-07 13:47:58 <todam00n> sipa: headers include height?
1089 2014-04-07 13:48:00 lclc has joined
1090 2014-04-07 13:48:04 <todam00n> sipa: ah ok thank
1091 2014-04-07 13:48:09 <gpmnlxdw> for transfer or for a transaction
1092 2014-04-07 13:48:18 <sipa> todam00n: no, but if you receive and validate 200000 headers, you know the height is at least 200000!
1093 2014-04-07 13:48:20 <Apocalyptic> gpmnlxdw, nope
1094 2014-04-07 13:48:24 <Happzz> gpmnlxdw 0.00000001
1095 2014-04-07 13:48:31 <sipa> gpmnlxdw: it depends on your minimum relay fee setting
1096 2014-04-07 13:48:31 <gpmnlxdw> :(
1097 2014-04-07 13:48:38 <Happzz> gpmnlxdw aka "satoshi"
1098 2014-04-07 13:48:40 <gpmnlxdw> ooooo
1099 2014-04-07 13:48:40 <todam00n> sipa: but the idea was to get some sort of idea of the progress :P
1100 2014-04-07 13:48:49 <sipa> todam00n: what progress?
1101 2014-04-07 13:49:02 <Happzz> sipa he was asking what's the minimum amount to xfer or for a tx... he didn't mention anything about fees/
1102 2014-04-07 13:49:02 <todam00n> sipa: getblocks download
1103 2014-04-07 13:49:11 <sipa> todam00n: don't use p2p for that; you can ask through rpc
1104 2014-04-07 13:49:18 <sipa> Happzz: fees are irrelevant
1105 2014-04-07 13:49:32 <Happzz> sipa [16:46] <sipa> gpmnlxdw: it depends on your minimum relay fee setting ?
1106 2014-04-07 13:49:58 <gpmnlxdw> I know satoshi, but bitcoin-qt blame the dust transaction. which transfers 0.0003011 btc to 0.0001+0.0002011
1107 2014-04-07 13:50:04 <todam00n> sipa: yea.. if i have a bitcoind client..
1108 2014-04-07 13:50:17 <gpmnlxdw> where to set the minimum relay fee?
1109 2014-04-07 13:50:23 <gpmnlxdw> config firle?
1110 2014-04-07 13:50:28 <sipa> gpmnlxdw: yes, but don't
1111 2014-04-07 13:50:37 <sipa> gpmnlxdw: it will make your node accept thing the network doesn't
1112 2014-04-07 13:50:39 <gpmnlxdw> #paytxfee=0.00
1113 2014-04-07 13:50:45 <sipa> that's the creation fee
1114 2014-04-07 13:50:48 <sipa> not the relay fee
1115 2014-04-07 13:51:17 <sipa> paytxfee is a wallet setting
1116 2014-04-07 13:51:23 <sipa> minrelayfee is a node setting
1117 2014-04-07 13:51:37 <gpmnlxdw> ok, but where is the relay fee?
1118 2014-04-07 13:51:54 <sipa> any output that is less than 3 times the marginal increase in size for create + spend, multiplied by the min relay fee, is considered dust
1119 2014-04-07 13:51:58 <gpmnlxdw> set minrelayfee=xxxx in the configure file?
1120 2014-04-07 13:52:05 <sipa> yes, but don't :)
1121 2014-04-07 13:52:16 <gpmnlxdw> :(
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1124 2014-04-07 13:52:25 <sipa> in 0.9, the default minrelayfee is 100 satoshi per kilobyte i think
1125 2014-04-07 13:52:33 <sipa> or 1000
1126 2014-04-07 13:52:36 <sipa> 1000, i think
1127 2014-04-07 13:52:41 <Happzz> 0.0001
1128 2014-04-07 13:52:51 <sipa> no, 0.00001
1129 2014-04-07 13:52:56 <sturles> 0.00001 in 0.9, iirc.
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1131 2014-04-07 13:52:59 <Happzz> oh wait, relay fee.
1132 2014-04-07 13:53:12 <Happzz> bitcoin-qt demands 0.0001 btc per kb for a tx
1133 2014-04-07 13:53:12 <gpmnlxdw> oooo
1134 2014-04-07 13:53:13 <bdak> i fucking hate gribble bot. fucking spam bot!
1135 2014-04-07 13:53:25 <sipa> Happzz: for creating transactions
1136 2014-04-07 13:53:28 <Happzz> bdak hail ze gribble
1137 2014-04-07 13:53:33 qwebirc49524 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1138 2014-04-07 13:53:37 <sipa> Happzz: he is using raw transaction api, so he bypasses that
1139 2014-04-07 13:53:38 <Happzz> sipa ya well, shouldn't it enforce it on relaying too?
1140 2014-04-07 13:53:42 <bdak> Happzz WHAT?
1141 2014-04-07 13:53:50 <sipa> bdak: please guys
1142 2014-04-07 13:53:53 <Happzz> bdak i said gribble is awesome.
1143 2014-04-07 13:54:03 <bdak> gribble fucks his own mother
1144 2014-04-07 13:54:10 <sipa> bdak: take it elsewhere
1145 2014-04-07 13:54:11 <bdak> awesome?
1146 2014-04-07 13:54:23 <bdak> /ignore gribble
1147 2014-04-07 13:55:01 ning_ has joined
1148 2014-04-07 13:55:02 <gpmnlxdw> I'm testing my website, must I deposit more funds ..... >_<
1149 2014-04-07 13:55:18 <sipa> use testnet
1150 2014-04-07 13:55:25 <gpmnlxdw> not work .....
1151 2014-04-07 13:55:28 <sipa> ?
1152 2014-04-07 13:55:44 <gpmnlxdw> must real network, I have tried testnet
1153 2014-04-07 13:55:50 ericmuyser has joined
1154 2014-04-07 13:56:08 <gpmnlxdw> I must get these infomation :: https://blockchain.info/rawaddr/3KtAoQd41KGn7g76RJZQa5r8Jqkr4M8Eba
1155 2014-04-07 13:56:22 ning has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1156 2014-04-07 13:56:25 <gpmnlxdw> Sipa, Is there any other way to get this data?
1157 2014-04-07 13:56:31 <sipa> get which data?
1158 2014-04-07 13:56:36 <Happzz> rpc ?
1159 2014-04-07 13:56:40 <gpmnlxdw> like this : https://blockchain.info/rawaddr/3KtAoQd41KGn7g76RJZQa5r8Jqkr4M8Eba
1160 2014-04-07 13:56:57 <gpmnlxdw> I need this to composite the multisig transaction
1161 2014-04-07 13:57:03 <sipa> ugh
1162 2014-04-07 13:57:11 <sipa> you're relying on a fully indexed by-address index :(
1163 2014-04-07 13:57:12 <gpmnlxdw> any sugguestion?
1164 2014-04-07 13:57:32 <gpmnlxdw> yes ....
1165 2014-04-07 13:57:53 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1166 2014-04-07 13:57:53 <sipa> that's really bad practice
1167 2014-04-07 13:58:01 <gpmnlxdw> yes ....
1168 2014-04-07 13:58:18 <sipa> it means you're building infrastructure that won't easily scale to cases where nodes don't keep the full blockchain available
1169 2014-04-07 13:58:20 <gpmnlxdw> ABE spent too many  database space, I can not afford it ....
1170 2014-04-07 13:58:26 <sipa> then don't
1171 2014-04-07 13:58:32 <sipa> use a watch-only wallet
1172 2014-04-07 13:58:41 <ahmed_> andytoshi: ?
1173 2014-04-07 13:58:42 <sipa> which monitors and remembers whatever you're interested in
1174 2014-04-07 13:59:37 <gpmnlxdw> my app do not monitor the btc network; It just composite the multisig transactions for visitors
1175 2014-04-07 13:59:46 <gpmnlxdw> help them to trade directly
1176 2014-04-07 14:00:00 <sipa> relying on abe is hardly better
1177 2014-04-07 14:00:13 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1178 2014-04-07 14:00:22 <sipa> but relying on a centralized service is even worse
1179 2014-04-07 14:00:38 <gpmnlxdw> but blockchain.info does not work well in some time, so my app is suffering....
1180 2014-04-07 14:01:01 <gpmnlxdw> yes, you are obsolutely right!!!
1181 2014-04-07 14:02:00 <gpmnlxdw> does btc maintainers plan to support such  ability in bitcoin-qt locally?
1182 2014-04-07 14:02:51 <sipa> hell no
1183 2014-04-07 14:03:03 <gpmnlxdw> :(
1184 2014-04-07 14:03:11 <sipa> i mean, if the alternative is that you're querying blockchain.info, perhaps we should
1185 2014-04-07 14:03:23 <gpmnlxdw> so we have to relly on blockchain for some days ...
1186 2014-04-07 14:03:29 <sipa> but you should really consider a design that doesn't depend on such indexes at all
1187 2014-04-07 14:03:33 <wumpus> watch-only wallet is planned to be merged at some point
1188 2014-04-07 14:05:06 <gpmnlxdw> I reviewed the steps to composite the multisig transaction, but it is so hard to got the alertnatives ....
1189 2014-04-07 14:05:11 <gpmnlxdw> >_<
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1193 2014-04-07 14:07:33 <gpmnlxdw> I wish the multisig protocol could be simplized in the next versions
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1196 2014-04-07 14:12:05 <Luke-Jr> gpmnlxdw: are you writing code for it?
1197 2014-04-07 14:12:23 <gpmnlxdw> nooooooo
1198 2014-04-07 14:12:29 <gpmnlxdw> no time to do so
1199 2014-04-07 14:13:12 <Luke-Jr> gpmnlxdw: well, as long as you're relying on volunteers who are probably just as busy if not busier… you'll have to take it as it comes :p
1200 2014-04-07 14:13:15 <gpmnlxdw> hi Sipa, another question, 0.0003011 -> 0.0002011 with fee 0.0001, but it still does not work
1201 2014-04-07 14:13:15 adam3us has joined
1202 2014-04-07 14:14:34 <gpmnlxdw> Hi Luke-Jr, I promise I will do so once I have a little of free time, but not for now .....
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1216 2014-04-07 14:34:22 <kankles> im making this rpc call: getaccountaddress "my label" this should return the existing associated address with that label. correct?
1217 2014-04-07 14:34:53 <kankles> but it looks like its generating a new address with the label provided.
1218 2014-04-07 14:35:16 <kankles> so i have two addresses with the same label. is that normal behavior?
1219 2014-04-07 14:35:31 <Luke-Jr> kankles: that's okay, you don't need an existing address
1220 2014-04-07 14:36:02 ThomasV has joined
1221 2014-04-07 14:36:05 <kankles> ya but i have one. i'm expecting to get the address that has the label i proved
1222 2014-04-07 14:36:09 <kankles> provided*
1223 2014-04-07 14:36:41 InsiderJoe has joined
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1225 2014-04-07 14:37:04 <Luke-Jr> kankles: why?
1226 2014-04-07 14:37:12 <kankles> instead that rpc call just creates a new address with the label. it functions as if i called getnewaddress "my label"
1227 2014-04-07 14:37:40 <Luke-Jr> getaccountaddress will probably be removed in the next version anyway
1228 2014-04-07 14:37:44 <kankles> because thats what it says it should do here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_Calls_list
1229 2014-04-07 14:38:05 <kankles> why?
1230 2014-04-07 14:38:23 Milanito has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1231 2014-04-07 14:38:26 <Luke-Jr> because the accounting system is impossible to use safely
1232 2014-04-07 14:38:51 <Luke-Jr> and conflicts with labels
1233 2014-04-07 14:39:59 <kankles> ok. but basically right now getaccoundaddress and getnewaddress are essentially the same rpc call
1234 2014-04-07 14:40:36 llllllllll has joined
1235 2014-04-07 14:40:37 <Luke-Jr> seems reasonable
1236 2014-04-07 14:41:59 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1237 2014-04-07 14:42:12 <gmaxwell> IIRC getaccoundaddress has the probably bad and surprisng behavior of returning an already issued address — sometimes, when it doesn't think it's been 'used' yet.
1238 2014-04-07 14:43:08 <kankles> the description for the api call: Returns the current bitcoin address for receiving payments to this account. If <account> does not exist, it will be created along with an associated new address that will be returned.
1239 2014-04-07 14:43:10 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I think he's saying that misfeature is broken
1240 2014-04-07 14:43:19 <Luke-Jr> kankles: there is no "current bitcoin address"
1241 2014-04-07 14:43:52 <kankles> even if i specify a valid account it still creates a new address with the account name
1242 2014-04-07 14:45:32 <andytoshi> ahmed_: hi, what's up?
1243 2014-04-07 14:45:54 Guest60669 has joined
1244 2014-04-07 14:46:00 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I'm testing here and it's giving me the same address over and over again.
1245 2014-04-07 14:46:03 Milanito has joined
1246 2014-04-07 14:46:15 <ahmed_> andytoshi: u mentioned me?
1247 2014-04-07 14:46:31 <andytoshi> ahmed_: you asked me, '?' earlier
1248 2014-04-07 14:46:42 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I wonder if it always gives a new address after the initial one is used?
1249 2014-04-07 14:46:43 <ahmed_> 15:45 <andytoshi> axilla: check out the coinjoin thread linked to from | http://xnpjsvp7crbzlj3w.onion/ to start one.
1250 2014-04-07 14:47:02 <ahmed_> 15:45 <andytoshi> axilla: check out the coinjoin thread linked to from | http://xnpjsvp7crbzlj3w.onion/ to start one. │ ahmed_
1251 2014-04-07 14:47:04 <gmaxwell> FWIW, https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=677
1252 2014-04-07 14:47:07 OperatorSyn has joined
1253 2014-04-07 14:47:15 <ahmed_> ^ see
1254 2014-04-07 14:48:08 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1255 2014-04-07 14:48:10 <andytoshi> ahmed_: oh, sorry, copy/paste error. i meant the wpsoftware.net link that i posted a few seconds after
1256 2014-04-07 14:48:40 <ahmed_> andytoshi: ahh no worries :)
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1262 2014-04-07 14:55:23 <ProfMac> I'm looking for "push_back" in the structure CInv.  I did not notice it in src/protocol.h or src/protocol.cpp.  Anyone know where it is?
1263 2014-04-07 14:55:37 Emcy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1265 2014-04-07 14:57:53 <hearn> ProfMac: std::vector not CInv
1266 2014-04-07 14:58:38 <hearn> CInv is not a list, it’s an entry in an inv list
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1269 2014-04-07 15:01:08 <ProfMac> hearn, thanks.  I'm almost overwhelmed, trying to grok this.
1270 2014-04-07 15:01:13 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1271 2014-04-07 15:01:41 InsiderJoe has joined
1272 2014-04-07 15:01:42 <hearn> i chuckled when i saw that the Chicago Fed is saying the Bitcoin code is “huge” and “written in a language almost nobody understands"
1273 2014-04-07 15:01:48 <hearn> C++     …. the new sanskrit!
1274 2014-04-07 15:01:57 <Luke-Jr> everyone knows it's really TypeScript
1275 2014-04-07 15:02:38 paveljanik has joined
1276 2014-04-07 15:03:31 <hearn> lol
1277 2014-04-07 15:03:35 Soligor has joined
1278 2014-04-07 15:03:46 <hearn> that confusion might explain why people find it so hard to figure out!
1279 2014-04-07 15:04:09 OperatorSyn has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1281 2014-04-07 15:04:32 <gmaxwell> well it's sort of pedantically trust that almost nobody understands any programming language. But I don't get the huge, src/*.cpp/*.h is 30489 LOC.
1282 2014-04-07 15:04:41 <kjj> technically, he is right
1283 2014-04-07 15:04:43 s7r has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1284 2014-04-07 15:05:18 <hearn> gmaxwell: he said it was 15mb for some reason. probably he included leveldb and the qt ui
1285 2014-04-07 15:05:26 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1287 2014-04-07 15:06:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: TypeScript? Huh?
1288 2014-04-07 15:06:06 <ProfMac> I'm just trying to understand one little part each effort.  This effort starts with submitblock and goes all the way to push_inventory deep inside AcceptBlock.
1289 2014-04-07 15:06:23 s7r has joined
1290 2014-04-07 15:07:58 <kjj> gmaxwell: I'd argue that C++ is a special kind of incomprehensible.  Someone that knows C can read a LOT of languages, but C++ ain't one of them
1291 2014-04-07 15:08:53 <Luke-Jr> can we add CBlock::operator*(CDestination) ?
1292 2014-04-07 15:09:15 <hearn> ProfMac: push_inventory puts the CInv into a queue for the CPeer
1293 2014-04-07 15:09:18 <hearn> iirc
1294 2014-04-07 15:09:40 <hearn> kjj: there are millions of C++ programmers in the world. it’s hardly exotic. if Satoshi had written it in Haskell I’d have agreed ....
1295 2014-04-07 15:09:57 <gmaxwell> kjj: well I agree that basically no C++ programmers actually know the language completely, everyone knows subsets.
1296 2014-04-07 15:09:59 Lao_Ban_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1297 2014-04-07 15:10:07 <t7> true true
1298 2014-04-07 15:10:16 <gmaxwell> still, bitcoin itself is 30kloc and is generally written in a pretty comprehensible subset of C++.
1299 2014-04-07 15:10:19 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I think the same may apply to C
1300 2014-04-07 15:10:25 <ProfMac> ah.  I haven't read CPeer, but the name sounds right.  I come from an Algol / Pascal / Modula / Oberon background.  I find C++ unnecessarily difficult.
1301 2014-04-07 15:10:50 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: nah, I know _lots_ of people who could write a C compiler cold and get most of it right. Though perhaps I know weird people, C is a pretty small language.
1302 2014-04-07 15:10:50 <Luke-Jr> I mean, how many C coders know about strpbrk?
1303 2014-04-07 15:11:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: compiler != standard library
1304 2014-04-07 15:11:32 <gmaxwell> we're way OT now
1305 2014-04-07 15:11:34 <kjj> not to get too far off on the tangent, but flow in C is downright obvious compared to C++.
1306 2014-04-07 15:12:32 <ProfMac> (wonders if I have good questions, or am a natural troll)
1307 2014-04-07 15:13:12 <kjj> ProfMac: for an amateur, reading C++ is mostly a grind.  have a notepad handy and write down types and methods, look them up recursively
1308 2014-04-07 15:13:41 <wumpus> the doxygen may help when browsing the source
1309 2014-04-07 15:13:53 <kjj> don't assume anything as you go.  follow literally every function call (even non-obvious ones like +, - and >> )
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1312 2014-04-07 15:14:50 <ProfMac> I'm reading by doing searching in the git, making notes in Google docs.
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1315 2014-04-07 15:15:57 <wumpus> it has call trees and such
1316 2014-04-07 15:17:19 <ProfMac> I'll have to learn doxygen.  Sounds like it would help pretty quickly.
1317 2014-04-07 15:17:59 <wumpus> https://dev.visucore.com/bitcoin/doxygen/
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1320 2014-04-07 15:19:54 <gpmnlxdw> Hi guys, sorry to ask help again for the same question.Now I reserved 0.0003011 btc for the fee, but bitcoin-qt still blames the tx with error code -22
1321 2014-04-07 15:20:03 <gpmnlxdw> any sugguestion?
1322 2014-04-07 15:20:04 Subo1977_ has joined
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1324 2014-04-07 15:20:16 <kjj> createrawtransaction
1325 2014-04-07 15:20:40 <gpmnlxdw> yes, from createrawtransaction
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1327 2014-04-07 15:21:13 <gpmnlxdw> transfer from a multisig addr to other normal address
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1329 2014-04-07 15:22:12 <kjj> got a link to the signed raw transaction?
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1370 2014-04-07 16:04:23 <melvster> do outputs traditionally start from index=0?
1371 2014-04-07 16:04:45 <melvster> block explorer and biteasy dont seem to show the index
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1375 2014-04-07 16:08:43 <melvster> ah yes it is ... it's only missing in the json
1376 2014-04-07 16:08:46 <melvster> is there in the html
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1392 2014-04-07 16:33:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|18:00:18 <Luke-Jr> everyone knows it's really TypeScript
1393 2014-04-07 16:33:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Can someone explain that comment?
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1397 2014-04-07 16:38:34 <vetch> michagogo|cloud: GitHub falsely has a stat that claims bitcoin is written in typescript.
1398 2014-04-07 16:38:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Eh?
1399 2014-04-07 16:38:46 jmordica has joined
1400 2014-04-07 16:38:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What's that about? o_O
1401 2014-04-07 16:39:11 <vetch> michagogo|cloud: click the coloured bar under the "commits" button on the main page to see the code language breakdown.
1402 2014-04-07 16:39:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Eh, wtf?
1403 2014-04-07 16:39:34 <vetch> michagogo|cloud: translations being parsed incorrectly as typescript I think.
1404 2014-04-07 16:40:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah
1405 2014-04-07 16:40:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/search?l=typescript
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1424 2014-04-07 17:00:54 <jmordica> does bfgminer support proxying using hashrate based quota instead of percentage based quota?
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1441 2014-04-07 17:20:23 <midnightmagic> wumpus: please please please do a keysign exchange with gavin at Bitcoin2014 if you haven't already.
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1443 2014-04-07 17:20:46 <midnightmagic> that goes for the rest of you too
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1454 2014-04-07 17:29:49 <damethos> does anyone know the maximum size of each .dat file? is it 128MB?
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1483 2014-04-07 18:16:35 <warren> hearn: in December 2013 Litecoin shipped 0.8.6.1 which upgraded win32-only to gitian precise instead of lucid.  This introduced a weird bug where win32 nodes would randomly fail all network traffic until restart.  This hurt the quantity of listening nodes on our network until I figured out the fix.
1484 2014-04-07 18:18:12 Milanito has joined
1485 2014-04-07 18:20:03 <warren> I have no idea why the fix worked.  It was simply upgrading from boost-1.54 to boost-1.55.
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1496 2014-04-07 18:27:47 <hearn> warren: hmm
1497 2014-04-07 18:28:00 <hearn> warren: i do not know much about our windows gitian setup
1498 2014-04-07 18:28:06 <hearn> warren: but i know our monitoring is crap :)
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1513 2014-04-07 18:47:11 <rnicoll> evening all; wandering across from #dogecoin-dev to ask for some input/prompt discussion. One of our founders has been approached by Charlie Lee (Litecoin), about potential merged mining. We've been discussing this for a while now, wondered if you guys had any thoughts you'd care to share, on the idea?
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1516 2014-04-07 18:50:23 <hearn> rnicoll: merge mining with what? litecoin?
1517 2014-04-07 18:50:36 <rnicoll> hearn, yeah... BTC/NMC style
1518 2014-04-07 18:50:58 <hearn> *shrug* it’s a big change for you guys, but why not? not sure what it has to do with bitcoin though. the details of merged mining are pretty well worked out by now
1519 2014-04-07 18:51:27 <rnicoll> hearn, honestly, we've just been bouncing it around for so long I thought I'd see if you guys had any thoughts
1520 2014-04-07 18:52:01 <hearn> why not switch from scrypt to SHA256 and merge mine with bitcoin? :)
1521 2014-04-07 18:52:05 <rnicoll> I'm kind of in favour (a lot less than I was earlier), others are pointing out it's a political nightmare of people ending up mining LTC to get DOGE and all sorts of things
1522 2014-04-07 18:52:18 * rnicoll grins "I'll ask :-D"
1523 2014-04-07 18:53:30 <rnicoll> it would avoid the awkward "ASIC adoption period" issue, anyawy
1524 2014-04-07 18:53:48 <gmaxwell> I think if you were going to merge mine you should do it with bitcoin... though I thought the DOGE coin community was talking about different POW to preserve the everyman minable property that not having huge highly efficient asic clusters may help with. (I strongly expect scrypt and sha256 to be very similar in that respect in not so long, and ltc-scrypt has the disadvantage of the validation being slow)
1525 2014-04-07 18:54:02 <hearn> isn’t this topic a bit serious for dogecoin?
1526 2014-04-07 18:54:23 <rnicoll> hearn, try to imagine I'm wearing a jester's hat if it helps?
1527 2014-04-07 18:54:34 <rnicoll> gmaxwell, there's a lot of ideas up for consideration, none of them good, frankly
1528 2014-04-07 18:54:43 <gmaxwell> hearn: they made their coin supply finite in a hardfork a few weeks ago.
1529 2014-04-07 18:55:05 <rnicoll> personally I actually favour hanging on for dear life and riding it out, but a lot of others think we need to change
1530 2014-04-07 18:55:08 <hearn> oh, they did? i thought they decided to keep the infinite supply
1531 2014-04-07 18:55:12 <gmaxwell> rnicoll: thats usually the case for POWy things.. basically a lot of bad ideas, and then a lot of ideas which are just too complex to actually analyize. :)
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1533 2014-04-07 18:55:26 <rnicoll> hearn, gmaxwell, we'll probably make the supply imaginary next fork :)
1534 2014-04-07 18:56:09 <rnicoll> (we're still infinite last time I checked, in case you were seriously asking)
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1536 2014-04-07 18:56:17 <gmaxwell> hearn: they did, and then about a month later there was a hardfork to fix the subsidy being random (since that was causing problematic strategic mining, esp with the way it was done based on the prior block instead of the solution), and as a somewhat quiet side effect it made the supply finite.
1537 2014-04-07 18:56:31 <hearn> if you really want an ASIC resistant PoW, just require each node to contain a JavaScript VM like V8 and then have the dogecoin maintainers change the program to a completely different one every few months
1538 2014-04-07 18:56:33 <gmaxwell> (unless that got aborted or something)
1539 2014-04-07 18:57:25 <rnicoll> hearn, considered something like that. Somehow I keep thinking there's a slight risk if we got the sandboxing wrong...
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1541 2014-04-07 18:58:02 <hearn> “slight risk” might be understating it :)
1542 2014-04-07 18:58:13 <hearn> but i think the biggest risk to dogecoin is that people start to actually care about it
1543 2014-04-07 18:58:20 <hearn> then it’d just be a crappy version of bitcoin, without the fun community
1544 2014-04-07 18:58:29 <gmaxwell> http://www.reddit.com/r/dogecoin/comments/207hfb/ann_dogecoin16_its_ready_all_you_need_to_know/ "The current reward will be 250,000 Doge per block, with the halvening dropping us to 125,000 Doge per block, etc etc."
1545 2014-04-07 18:58:29 <hearn> i mean the 60 second scrypt-based block chain already killed your performance on mobile
1546 2014-04-07 18:58:46 <hearn> so, unless you hard fork _again_, dogecoin will never be particularly usable or scalable for lighter weight nodes, imo
1547 2014-04-07 18:59:15 <hearn> that doesn’t mean it can’t be enjoyable and a good way to tip people on reddit though
1548 2014-04-07 18:59:20 <rnicoll> gmaxwell, https://github.com/dogecoin/dogecoin/blob/master-1.6/src/main.cpp#L1129 looks infinite to me, but thanks for the time I'll spend checking it later :p
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1551 2014-04-07 19:00:08 <gmaxwell> rnicoll: indeed, well this is what I get for believing people on IRC. Learn from my folly.
1552 2014-04-07 19:00:47 <rnicoll> hearn, I suggested we merge-mine with Kittehcoin, if it helps you regain your faith in our silliness?
1553 2014-04-07 19:01:04 <hearn> kittehcoin is a thing?
1554 2014-04-07 19:01:08 * hearn raises eyebrows
1555 2014-04-07 19:01:19 <rnicoll> hearn, yeah.... symbol MEOW, hangon
1556 2014-04-07 19:01:23 <hearn> https://kittehcoin.info/
1557 2014-04-07 19:01:26 <hearn> kittehcoin IS a thing
1558 2014-04-07 19:01:29 <rnicoll> https://kittehcoin.info/
1559 2014-04-07 19:01:57 <rnicoll> there's also a NyanCoin, three PandaCoins, at least one but probably more FlappyCoins
1560 2014-04-07 19:02:23 <gmaxwell> I recently discovered that the mobile boarding passes in the USA contain a digital signature. Someone needs to create a sillycoin that you mine by presenting boarding IATA signatures. :P (first you have to change your name to a public key you control... then you go fly...)
1561 2014-04-07 19:02:33 <gmaxwell> oh ^ that should be flappy coin.
1562 2014-04-07 19:02:37 <hearn> gmaxwell: they do _now_ :)
1563 2014-04-07 19:02:46 <hearn> after some annoying security researcher discovered they were previously unprotected, lol
1564 2014-04-07 19:02:56 <rnicoll> hearn, heard about that :)
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1566 2014-04-07 19:04:01 <hearn> rnicoll: well, i guess i’m wondering, what your goal is here. the changes dogecoin has made technically don’t IMHO make much sense, as in they don’t improve on bitcoin and some of them make it worse. if all you want is a cryptocurrency that’s got a more chill community than bitcoin, which is a laudable goal, then your best bet would be to reset to almost stock Bitcoin Core as possible and SHA256 merge mine with Bitcoin. and t
1567 2014-04-07 19:04:02 <hearn> tech alone and focus on community sites, cooler wallets, whatever
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1569 2014-04-07 19:04:37 <hearn> if your goal is to improve on bitcoin, then ….. not sure scrypt merge mining with litecoin or any other alt coin is really the way to go
1570 2014-04-07 19:04:43 <midnightmagic> hearn: You got cut off at "Bitcoin. and t"
1571 2014-04-07 19:04:50 <hearn> and then leave the tech alone and focus on community sites, cooler wallets, whatever
1572 2014-04-07 19:05:14 <rnicoll> hearn, right now? Mostly I'm using you guys as a tie breaker. Longer term, I'd like to be less value-focused coin. I'm already flashfowarding to the flamewar that quote's going to cause
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1574 2014-04-07 19:05:34 <hearn> lol
1575 2014-04-07 19:05:48 <hearn> right. coins and value are pretty interrelated concepts :)
1576 2014-04-07 19:05:58 <gmaxwell> hearn: only the mobile ones do, the ones on the paper boarding passes are still unsigned at the moment.
1577 2014-04-07 19:06:03 <sipa> a (less value)-focused or less (value-focused) ?
1578 2014-04-07 19:06:05 <rnicoll> but, I stand by it. I _love_ cryptocurrency theory, disagree it should be about deriving direct value, think inflationary is the way forward and gain value elsewhere
1579 2014-04-07 19:06:06 <hearn> gmaxwell: bizarre.
1580 2014-04-07 19:06:17 <hearn> gmaxwell: but then i find it bizarre that a db of stolen passports exists, and most countries don’t check it. seems fairly basic ...
1581 2014-04-07 19:06:26 <rnicoll> sipa, less (value focused)
1582 2014-04-07 19:06:30 <sipa> oh
1583 2014-04-07 19:06:31 <sipa> boring
1584 2014-04-07 19:06:57 <rnicoll> hearn, I wish people would stop committing passwords to SVN, but... yeah, anyway
1585 2014-04-07 19:07:40 <rnicoll> I'd argue a coin's value should be relatively stable, and you derive value from ease of movement of value and removing obstacles, rather than direct value of the coin, but... I'm being far too serious again I fear
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1587 2014-04-07 19:08:29 <gmaxwell> wtf grau.
1588 2014-04-07 19:08:44 <rnicoll> grau?
1589 2014-04-07 19:09:00 <gmaxwell> mailing list context.
1590 2014-04-07 19:09:05 <sipa> gmaxwell: he's obviously reasoning from hiw own implementation (which i think puts every transaction individually in a database)
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1594 2014-04-07 19:09:48 <dfletcher> so, is this a terrible idea? once in a while i want a guestimate about the fee before committing a transaction and it seems to work okay on testnet. https://github.com/dfletcher/bitcoin/commit/6e11ab4f6342849c4ea0d68513ba6b0bb3bfca8a
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1596 2014-04-07 19:10:13 <gmaxwell> sipa: sure, no problem that he does something different— maaku answered that point clearly enough. I thought the gratitious insult was entirely uncalled for.
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1603 2014-04-07 19:12:43 <rnicoll> gmaxwell, hearn, good talking to you guys, I should get back to thinking far too hard about silly things. Have a good evening!
1604 2014-04-07 19:13:10 * midnightmagic exchanges juggling beanbags with rnicoll before he leaves
1605 2014-04-07 19:13:47 <sipa> dfletcher: it's unpredictable that way
1606 2014-04-07 19:13:48 <rnicoll> thanks midnightmagic! Will still be here... lurking... waiting...
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1608 2014-04-07 19:13:58 <sipa> dfletcher: the second call may give a different result
1609 2014-04-07 19:14:11 <sipa> dfletcher: you really need a 2-phase transaction construction
1610 2014-04-07 19:14:14 <maaku> rnicoll: you may be interested in #freicoin (OT here)
1611 2014-04-07 19:14:29 <sipa> dfletcher: which the raw transaction api implements
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1613 2014-04-07 19:15:27 <dfletcher> sipa, thanks for the hint
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1616 2014-04-07 19:17:17 <martjoh> WHo here is advanced with jsonrpc?
1617 2014-04-07 19:17:27 * sipa is journeyman
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1634 2014-04-07 19:37:08 stqism is now known as rg
1635 2014-04-07 19:37:19 rg is now known as stqism
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1638 2014-04-07 19:40:29 <ellendegenerate> hello
1639 2014-04-07 19:40:38 <ellendegenerate> how many of the last characters is the hash?
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1641 2014-04-07 19:41:09 <ellendegenerate> hash of the address, that is
1642 2014-04-07 19:41:25 <helo> ellendegenerate: #bitcoin
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1644 2014-04-07 19:43:00 * maaku gives up trying to talk to grau
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1649 2014-04-07 19:48:13 <hearn> sipa: have you ever thought about an SSD optimized utxo db that doesn’t use leveldb?
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1655 2014-04-07 19:56:37 <ellendegenerate> is the ECDSA public key published at any time?
1656 2014-04-07 19:56:42 tedtalks has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1657 2014-04-07 19:56:46 <ellendegenerate> or only the addresses?
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1660 2014-04-07 19:59:20 <elichai2> hey
1661 2014-04-07 19:59:32 <gmaxwell> ellendegenerate: a signature publishes the public key (directly, but even if it didn't it would do so indirectly because of how ecdsa works)
1662 2014-04-07 19:59:42 <elichai2> i downloaded bootstrap.dat and put it in ~/.bitcoin
1663 2014-04-07 20:00:25 <elichai2> and then run bitcoin-qt
1664 2014-04-07 20:00:31 <ellendegenerate> hmm ok. is there a method faster that brute force of getting the private key from the publick key?
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1669 2014-04-07 20:02:34 <gmaxwell> ellendegenerate: "brute force" is an underspecified term.  The rho method takes sqrt() the number of operations you'd expect from a direct search of the secret key space.
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1671 2014-04-07 20:02:50 <gmaxwell> Which is why 256 bit ECC is said to provide 128 bit security.
1672 2014-04-07 20:03:16 <maaku> hearn: the key/value database backend is fully encapsulated, it should be trivially easy to compile with your own preferred db backend
1673 2014-04-07 20:03:53 ItSAN____ has joined
1674 2014-04-07 20:03:54 <hearn> i was not thinking about switching to a different product, but rather, whether it’d be possible to exploit the very limited and regular structure of our records for moar speed
1675 2014-04-07 20:04:03 <hearn> leveldb is very much oriented around spinning pieces of metal
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1694 2014-04-07 20:09:20 <ellendegenerate> do the curve parameters (as described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_Curve_DSA#Signature_generation_algorithm )  ever change in bitcoin?
1695 2014-04-07 20:09:22 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1696 2014-04-07 20:09:41 <elichai2> any one?
1697 2014-04-07 20:10:01 Application has joined
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1699 2014-04-07 20:10:29 <elichai2> please :(
1700 2014-04-07 20:10:42 <elichai2> i just want to see how much BTC i have :(
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1703 2014-04-07 20:11:02 <phantomcircuit> elichai2, you need to specify -loadblock= on the command line for that to work
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1707 2014-04-07 20:11:24 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: no you don't.
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1710 2014-04-07 20:11:46 <gmaxwell> elichai2: did you lose a message? here is what we say from you:
1711 2014-04-07 20:11:47 <gmaxwell> 12:57 < elichai2> hey
1712 2014-04-07 20:11:47 <gmaxwell> 12:58 < elichai2> i downloaded bootstrap.dat and put it in ~/.bitcoin
1713 2014-04-07 20:11:47 <gmaxwell> 12:58 < elichai2> and then run bitcoin-qt
1714 2014-04-07 20:11:49 <gmaxwell> 13:08 < elichai2> any one?
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1719 2014-04-07 20:12:04 <gmaxwell> elichai2: In any case, you'll probably get more of a response in #bitcoin.
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1721 2014-04-07 20:12:16 <ellendegenerate> dat split
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1732 2014-04-07 20:13:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ellendegenerate: no, they don't
1733 2014-04-07 20:13:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Bitcoin uses secp256k1
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1735 2014-04-07 20:14:57 <elichai2> gmaxwell: lol they sent me here
1736 2014-04-07 20:15:03 <gmaxwell> elichai2: they should not have.
1737 2014-04-07 20:15:13 Tiraspol has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1739 2014-04-07 20:15:31 <ellendegenerate> so ECDSA is basically DSA but using the EC as a group?
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1741 2014-04-07 20:15:39 <elichai2> gmaxwell: ohhh yes a lose a message
1742 2014-04-07 20:15:48 <elichai2> ut it's stuck in that little white window that says "Bitcoin Core" and the ver.
1743 2014-04-07 20:16:00 <elichai2> *but
1744 2014-04-07 20:16:03 <elichai2> and it's say's "Rescanning"
1745 2014-04-07 20:16:14 <gmaxwell> elichai2: it's processing, if your disk is slow it can take a while. It's expected.
1746 2014-04-07 20:16:15 <elichai2> so i tried to open the debug.log, and it's almost 1GB for what i could see it's full with:  http://pastebin.com/iwHamajL
1747 2014-04-07 20:16:28 <gmaxwell> uh thats bad
1748 2014-04-07 20:16:39 <elichai2> that why i went here
1749 2014-04-07 20:17:00 <gmaxwell> They should have sent you to the computer store to purchase a new computer. :)
1750 2014-04-07 20:17:16 <elichai2> ???
1751 2014-04-07 20:18:12 Krellan has joined
1752 2014-04-07 20:18:26 <elichai2> gmaxwell: ?
1753 2014-04-07 20:19:01 <ellendegenerate> nevermind I'm moving to ##crypto
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1757 2014-04-07 20:21:00 <gmaxwell> elichai2: I suggest killing the process and restarting, but that looks strongly indicative of a hardware failure in your system. if that doesn't fix it restart your torrent client and let it check the file.
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1760 2014-04-07 20:21:30 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i was going to say it's possible he doesn't actually have the bootstrap.dat file
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1762 2014-04-07 20:21:48 <elichai2> gmaxwell: ok.... i will
1763 2014-04-07 20:21:50 <elichai2> thx
1764 2014-04-07 20:21:59 <elichai2> (restarting bitcoin-qt didn't helped)
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1768 2014-04-07 20:26:38 <sipa> hearn: have any particular suggestion?
1769 2014-04-07 20:26:57 <hearn> not really.  i was thinking maybe a fixed record size with direct overwrites or something
1770 2014-04-07 20:27:01 <hearn> i.e. no compaction
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1775 2014-04-07 20:29:24 <phantomcircuit> hearn, you can improve the index performance over leveldb with a custom structure
1776 2014-04-07 20:29:41 <phantomcircuit> but it's annoying to do and obviously not backwards compatible
1777 2014-04-07 20:30:23 <phantomcircuit> otoh we could fix a bunch of the consistency issues with leveldb like how leveldb handles missing records (it ignores them)
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1780 2014-04-07 20:32:14 <gmaxwell> a few months ago I would have said I'd be more interested in something _more reliable_ than leveldb than faster. ... though maybe we're through the worst of it.
1781 2014-04-07 20:32:44 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, im pretty sure we could have both
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1784 2014-04-07 20:33:14 <hearn> in fairness, i’m not sure i’d have anticipated the buggyness of mmap on OS X. actually i know i wouldn’t, because bcj uses mmap too
1785 2014-04-07 20:34:05 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, unlike leveldb we could essentially never call fsync since we can simply keep a utxo <-> block hash correlation and playback all the blocks past that point
1786 2014-04-07 20:34:37 <phantomcircuit> all we'd have to do is be sure records were written in sequence
1787 2014-04-07 20:34:44 <sipa> right, we don't need durability
1788 2014-04-07 20:34:47 <sipa> only atomicity
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1790 2014-04-07 20:34:52 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yup
1791 2014-04-07 20:35:04 <phantomcircuit> which is a massive performance opportunity
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1793 2014-04-07 20:35:34 <gmaxwell> well we still do need a way to go back, and so if it ever collects garbage there would need to be a compaction that had a barrier operation of some kind.
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1795 2014-04-07 20:36:18 <sipa> well, to be fair, we alreadyc have an in-memory cache on top of leveldb
1796 2014-04-07 20:36:25 <gmaxwell> e.g. we lose the latest updates, no biggie so long as we can go back to a complete recent state and play forward. But if we were collecting garbage we need to be absolutely sure that the last updates were consistent before doing that.
1797 2014-04-07 20:36:41 <sipa> the only thing we need is dumping sorted logs and asynchronous compaction of them
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1801 2014-04-07 20:37:11 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yes and no, if the compaction event allowed for using 2x disk space we could pull it off without ever calling fsync
1802 2014-04-07 20:37:30 <gmaxwell> I'd assumed that whever someone got around to doing some kind of utxo commitment they'd need to solve this, since the level db approach right now doesn't make it cheap to update the utxo commitments.
1803 2014-04-07 20:37:32 <sipa> you need syncing, unless you put everything in one database
1804 2014-04-07 20:37:37 <phantomcircuit> $BLOCK_HASH.utxo.dat -> $BLOCK_HASH+100.utxo.dat
1805 2014-04-07 20:37:50 <phantomcircuit> each file has a header with the expected length
1806 2014-04-07 20:37:58 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you still need to make sure the last one completely made it to disk before deleting the one before last.
1807 2014-04-07 20:38:01 <sipa> though you don't actually need to sync the chainstate
1808 2014-04-07 20:38:07 <sipa> gmaxwell: good point
1809 2014-04-07 20:38:08 <phantomcircuit> you only need to call fsync for cleanup of old entries
1810 2014-04-07 20:38:17 <gmaxwell> yes. agreed.
1811 2014-04-07 20:38:26 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, sure but that can be done on a very lazy basis
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1813 2014-04-07 20:38:41 <gmaxwell> I think having rolling snapsots would be a good idea generally and we could take the space overhead for it.
1814 2014-04-07 20:39:09 <phantomcircuit> although iirc the cfq io scheduler that most kernels use doesn't start actually flushing to disk until there is memory pressure an fsync call or the kernels 30 second sync timer kicks in
1815 2014-04-07 20:40:49 <phantomcircuit> it's actually a pretty bad strategy
1816 2014-04-07 20:40:50 <phantomcircuit> :/
1817 2014-04-07 20:41:09 <phantomcircuit> iirc the idea is that you dont want to queue writes if there is going to be read activity
1818 2014-04-07 20:41:23 <phantomcircuit> and since you cant predict read activity you only actually queue writes when you have to
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1820 2014-04-07 20:41:45 <phantomcircuit> it causes really attrocious performance stuff when you have lots of ram and a slow device like a flash drive
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1823 2014-04-07 20:43:26 <elichai2> ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED :):):):):)
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1825 2014-04-07 20:44:54 <phantomcircuit> elichai2, im assuming the download hadn't finished?
1826 2014-04-07 20:45:44 <elichai2> you can assume i fixed my problem :)
1827 2014-04-07 20:45:48 <elichai2> nope
1828 2014-04-07 20:46:00 <elichai2> the problem were in my local blockchain
1829 2014-04-07 20:46:16 <elichai2> i just needed to delete .bitcoin dir
1830 2014-04-07 20:46:36 <elichai2> and move the bootstrap.dat to the new one bitcoin-qt created
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1883 2014-04-07 21:57:38 <bdak> anybody know how to fix this?
1884 2014-04-07 21:58:19 <gmaxwell> Ask in #bitcoin?
1885 2014-04-07 21:58:32 <bdak> i have a phpbb issue, if you know phpbb coding/style good. please feel free to msg me
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1893 2014-04-07 22:03:51 <jaakkos> i hope bitcoin service maintainers are aware of CVE-2014-0160 (http://heartbleed.com/)
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1935 2014-04-07 22:20:55 <Emcy> hm new openssl
1936 2014-04-07 22:20:58 mrkent has joined
1937 2014-04-07 22:21:01 <Emcy> is that kind of a big deal?
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1941 2014-04-07 22:22:35 <warren> Emcy: sky is falling
1942 2014-04-07 22:22:46 <gmaxwell> Emcy: it's like a monthly event, it seems.
1943 2014-04-07 22:24:50 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1944 2014-04-07 22:25:00 <rnicoll> monthly? People we getting less twitchy these days, then? :)
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1951 2014-04-07 22:26:20 <Emcy> We have tested some of our own services from attacker's perspective. We attacked ourselves from outside, without leaving a trace. Without using any privileged information or credentials we were able steal from ourselves the secret keys used for our X.509 certificates, user names and passwords, instant messages, emails and business critical documents and communication.
1952 2014-04-07 22:26:37 <Emcy> http://heartbleed.com/ some horrific bug in openssl? oh dear
1953 2014-04-07 22:27:00 <rnicoll> Emcy, some horrific bug they didn't give distros time to prep a patch for
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1958 2014-04-07 22:28:22 <rnicoll> although reminded a little bit of why I despair when people suggest hopping to random new proof-of-work algos (for Dogecoin)
1959 2014-04-07 22:28:55 <sipa> at least those are pretty basic crypto primitives, which are well studied
1960 2014-04-07 22:29:06 <sipa> openssl's problems are implementation problems
1961 2014-04-07 22:29:16 <kuzetsa> uhg, I think I need to upgrade a library or two to get 0.9.0 to build (0.8.6 builds just fine though)
1962 2014-04-07 22:29:19 <sipa> resulting from a codebase with a way too large exposure
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1964 2014-04-07 22:29:30 <Emcy> bug has been out there since march 2012
1965 2014-04-07 22:29:32 <Emcy> painful
1966 2014-04-07 22:30:04 <Emcy> and i thought openssl would have been perhaps the most reviewed bit of OSS in the world
1967 2014-04-07 22:30:13 <sipa> maybe
1968 2014-04-07 22:30:21 <sipa> but perhaps also the hardest thing to review
1969 2014-04-07 22:30:41 <sipa> and few people who could actually spot problems
1970 2014-04-07 22:31:26 disident has joined
1971 2014-04-07 22:31:30 <Emcy> true
1972 2014-04-07 22:32:11 <rnicoll> that's the problem, very, very few people who can identify problems at that level
1973 2014-04-07 22:32:23 <Emcy> its a pretty good way to make people get serious about forward secrecy i suppose
1974 2014-04-07 22:32:34 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1975 2014-04-07 22:32:49 <Emcy> im arbitrarily assigning a >75% possibility NSA knew about this
1976 2014-04-07 22:33:04 * rnicoll knows just enough to know how little he understands
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1982 2014-04-07 22:35:43 <sipa> openssl (and independently, ssl the protocol too) just seem so much overcomplicated
1983 2014-04-07 22:36:07 <sipa> but perhaps i'm biased because i don't have a clue about most of what it does
1984 2014-04-07 22:36:55 <Emcy> bitcoin core doesnt use openssl for the wallet encryption does it
1985 2014-04-07 22:37:16 <warren> I'm testing 1.0.1g with bitcoin now
1986 2014-04-07 22:37:42 <sipa> Emcy: it does, but that's relatively fine, as it just calls a rather low level direct encryption api
1987 2014-04-07 22:37:57 <Emcy> i mean bitcoin core has no exposure with this does it, it uses parts of the library not related to TLS stuff
1988 2014-04-07 22:38:03 <sipa> yup
1989 2014-04-07 22:38:07 <sipa> except for rpcssl
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1991 2014-04-07 22:38:31 <Emcy> rpc server session crypto?
1992 2014-04-07 22:38:46 <sipa> it's just ssl encrypted rpc traffic
1993 2014-04-07 22:38:52 <sipa> https jsonrpc
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1995 2014-04-07 22:39:11 <Emcy> so youll be wanting to update to 101g asap then
1996 2014-04-07 22:39:29 <sipa> i think you shouldn't be using that rpcssl in the first place
1997 2014-04-07 22:39:41 <sipa> but yes, we probably need to issue a new release for that reason
1998 2014-04-07 22:39:44 <Emcy> for people who use the RPC over the internet for some crazy reason
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2002 2014-04-07 22:41:56 <rnicoll> sipa, what's wrong with rpcssl, beyond the bit where it's over a network?
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2004 2014-04-07 22:42:21 <sipa> rnicoll: yeah, i think doing rpc over the network is rarely a good idea
2005 2014-04-07 22:42:32 <sipa> if you need it, tunnel it
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2007 2014-04-07 22:43:59 <rnicoll> sipa, personally I'd be tempted to SSL it just incase it ended up over a network through misconfiguration, but yeah, that sort of thing kinda terrifies me
2008 2014-04-07 22:44:23 <gmaxwell> ninsei: well we already belt and suspenders by not exposing the rpc to the outside world by default
2009 2014-04-07 22:45:37 <rnicoll> gmaxwell, I suppose not trusting the OS is probably a little paranoid...
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2016 2014-04-07 22:49:54 <venzen> there was talk earlier today of using the contrib/bitrpc.py script to avoid typing the rpcuser password on the command line (in case other system users found it via swap or /proc... but working with that script, I think is worse... it just passes both username and password in cleartext over the net
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2018 2014-04-07 22:51:23 <rnicoll> likely better loaded from disk, and hopefully in a language with the concept of secure memory?
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2020 2014-04-07 22:52:18 <gmaxwell> venzen: it doesn't pass it over the net, by default the RPC is localhost only and you have to work fairly hard to change that.
2021 2014-04-07 22:52:39 <gmaxwell> (it only binds to localhost, and even once bound elsewhere it only allows connections from localhost)
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2027 2014-04-07 22:54:58 <sipa> venzen: it passes it over the networkvin exactly the same way as bitcoin-cli does
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2031 2014-04-07 22:55:22 <sipa> they're independent issues
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2034 2014-04-07 22:55:48 <T_X> I'm having a bitcoind v0.9.0 compiled from the github repo running. I did a rm "~/.bitcoin/blocks/blk000* ~/.bitcoin/blocks/blk000*" as I was told that this might work since the chainstate stuff
2035 2014-04-07 22:55:58 <venzen> gmaxwell sipa: i enabled -rpcssl and created certificates on the remote host, but now i realize i was using a vulnerable openssl version, i feel pretty spooked
2036 2014-04-07 22:56:09 ninsei_ has joined
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2038 2014-04-07 22:56:30 <gmaxwell> T_X: I heard that man only uses 10% of his brain, so I removed your frontal lobe with a spatula. How are you feeling?
2039 2014-04-07 22:56:34 <T_X> so far this seems to work - new blk* stuff is downloaded right now
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2042 2014-04-07 22:57:02 <gmaxwell> T_X: your node is now corrupted and will radomly crash later. You now need to delete your blockchain and resync entirely.
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2045 2014-04-07 22:57:28 <gmaxwell> T_X: please tell me who told you that you can do this so I can send ninjas to egg their home?
2046 2014-04-07 22:57:34 <sipa> T_X: you'd need to delete the chainstate too
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2049 2014-04-07 22:57:47 <sipa> T_X: and the block index
2050 2014-04-07 22:57:58 <sipa> and deleting the blocks is never the right solution
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2053 2014-04-07 22:58:18 <T_X> sipa: k, removing the folders blocks/ plus chainstate/ entirely you mean?
2054 2014-04-07 22:58:22 <sipa> (as -reindex will work in any case there is a problem with it, and more)
2055 2014-04-07 22:58:31 <T_X> and then doing the -reindex?
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2057 2014-04-07 22:58:32 <sipa> T_X: now you will have to, yes
2058 2014-04-07 22:58:39 <airbreather> lol @ "send ninjas to egg their home"
2059 2014-04-07 22:58:45 <sipa> T_X: no, as your blocks are gone, you can't reindex anymore
2060 2014-04-07 22:58:56 <sipa> T_X: you'll need to download everything again
2061 2014-04-07 22:59:34 Subo1977_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2062 2014-04-07 22:59:45 <T_X> gmaxwell: hm, nah, I'm not that kind of person :D. I'm pointing that person to this discussion :) - but it's a person who had contributed some bitcoin code, so I was optimistic that it could work :)
2063 2014-04-07 22:59:59 tommygunner_ is now known as tommygunner
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2065 2014-04-07 23:00:08 <T_X> and maybe that person will reveal him- or herself or maybe not - I'll leave it up to him/her :)
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2068 2014-04-07 23:01:47 <gmaxwell> T_X: I'm not sure where the belief that this wold work is coming from ultimately but I've seen several other people claiming it recently, so you're certantly not alone.
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2070 2014-04-07 23:02:04 <T_X> I think it once seemed to work too - but now new blocks get downloaded into blocks/ while the block counter stays constant in 'bitcoind getinfo'
2071 2014-04-07 23:02:21 <sipa> what is the counter at?
2072 2014-04-07 23:02:33 <T_X> sipa: 278598
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2074 2014-04-07 23:02:39 <sipa> and did you delete files while bitcoind was running?
2075 2014-04-07 23:02:52 <T_X> while blk00130.dat is currently being fetched
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2078 2014-04-07 23:03:16 <T_X> I don't think so, I think I deleted them when the client was not running
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2080 2014-04-07 23:03:40 <sipa> well, stop bitcoind now, delete chainstate and blocks, and start over
2081 2014-04-07 23:03:44 <sipa> i doubt anything else will fix it
2082 2014-04-07 23:03:58 <gmaxwell> T_X: sorry about the delay you'll suffer.
2083 2014-04-07 23:04:15 <Emcy> maybe deleting system32 will help
2084 2014-04-07 23:04:24 <T_X> at least I have some bootstrap.dat :)
2085 2014-04-07 23:04:33 <sipa> ah, use that
2086 2014-04-07 23:04:45 <airbreather> Emcy: don't forget SysWoW64 on a 64-bit system, can never be too careful
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2088 2014-04-07 23:04:50 <T_X> Emcy: in my case, I think a "rm -rf /" would be more helpful ;)
2089 2014-04-07 23:05:21 <sipa> nothing works like forcefully removing the cpu from the system while it's running
2090 2014-04-07 23:05:39 <T_X> and I'd need to get some new harddisk before that, too - don't have enough space for the entire blockchain right now...
2091 2014-04-07 23:05:40 <Emcy> pretty sure i did that once
2092 2014-04-07 23:05:42 <sipa> cpus can work wirelessly these days
2093 2014-04-07 23:05:46 <gmaxwell> there was one some stupid email forward that exploited the fact that some important windows DLL had a goofy icon like a heart or a bear or something and told people it was a virus…
2094 2014-04-07 23:05:49 <sipa> better cooling
2095 2014-04-07 23:05:52 <venzen> don't forget _sudo_ rm -rf cpu
2096 2014-04-07 23:05:53 <T_X> (that's why I was actually considering that rm blk000* stuff)
2097 2014-04-07 23:05:58 <gmaxwell> "hotplug cpu support" ... immunity to power analysis!
2098 2014-04-07 23:06:11 <sipa> T_X: wait, then what are you tryimg? :)
2099 2014-04-07 23:06:32 <sipa> there is no way to function correctly without the entire blockchain
2100 2014-04-07 23:07:29 <Emcy> is this randomly deleting blockfiles thing stem from the rash of virus alerts?
2101 2014-04-07 23:07:30 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2102 2014-04-07 23:07:42 <Emcy> it was interesting how many different viruses people were reporting
2103 2014-04-07 23:07:44 <T_X> at block 278598 I was running out of disk space again and running out of ideas of how to save space, too
2104 2014-04-07 23:07:50 <Emcy> seems like heuristics went nuts
2105 2014-04-07 23:07:51 <T_X> well, then some new harddisk it is
2106 2014-04-07 23:07:52 jakov has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2107 2014-04-07 23:08:27 <T_X> or moving date to some "offshore computers"
2108 2014-04-07 23:09:03 <Emcy> look you can get a tb for like £40 now
2109 2014-04-07 23:09:12 <T_X> thanks for the info everyone, though :)
2110 2014-04-07 23:09:44 <venzen> T_X: man, why you pulling everyone's socks like that?
2111 2014-04-07 23:10:31 <Emcy> hmm 63gb of bootstrap.dat uploaded from here on the torrents and still going
2112 2014-04-07 23:10:50 <Emcy> that turned out to be a really popular thing #doingmypart
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