1 2014-04-10 00:00:08 <sipa> (compile with --with-comparison-tool=jarfile.jar)
   2 2014-04-10 00:00:51 <sipa> that jar is the largest part of pulltester, it's a bitcoinj application that runs against your compiled node in regtest mode and feeds it many weird blocks
   3 2014-04-10 00:01:19 <sipa> let me find the url
   4 2014-04-10 00:01:31 <sipa> https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/test-scripts
   5 2014-04-10 00:01:47 <kdomanski> let me explain what I'm trying to do here
   6 2014-04-10 00:01:52 <sipa> but pulltester does more than just running that; it also compiles and runs test for several platforms
   7 2014-04-10 00:01:58 <sipa> including windows
   8 2014-04-10 00:02:12 <kdomanski> that's exactly what I want to do
   9 2014-04-10 00:02:37 <sipa> you can use gitian for doing windows builds
  10 2014-04-10 00:02:41 <kdomanski> my C++ pull request fails to compile, because it requires latest compilers
  11 2014-04-10 00:02:48 <kdomanski> I want to check with C++0x enabled
  12 2014-04-10 00:03:08 <sipa> well pulltester is on an old ubuntu that only has gcc 4.4 or so
  13 2014-04-10 00:03:09 <sipa> or even older
  14 2014-04-10 00:03:13 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  15 2014-04-10 00:03:21 <kdomanski> oh
  16 2014-04-10 00:04:19 Lao_Ban_1 has joined
  17 2014-04-10 00:05:23 jakov has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  18 2014-04-10 00:05:26 JZavala has joined
  19 2014-04-10 00:05:31 <sipa> mingw-gcc and gcc are both 4.4 in pulltester
  20 2014-04-10 00:05:34 SoftwareMechanic has quit (Quit: SoftwareMechanic)
  21 2014-04-10 00:05:37 rnvk has joined
  22 2014-04-10 00:05:43 <sipa> we could easily upgrade it to precise if someone with access spent the time for that
  23 2014-04-10 00:05:50 <sipa> which would give 4.6
  24 2014-04-10 00:06:02 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  25 2014-04-10 00:07:17 Lao_Ban_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  26 2014-04-10 00:08:02 JackH1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  27 2014-04-10 00:08:30 nsh has joined
  28 2014-04-10 00:10:50 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  29 2014-04-10 00:11:09 Luke-Jr has joined
  30 2014-04-10 00:11:29 davispuh has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
  31 2014-04-10 00:12:10 rdymac has joined
  32 2014-04-10 00:14:33 <maaku> kdomanski: we're purposefully supporting older compilers
  33 2014-04-10 00:15:53 davispuh has joined
  34 2014-04-10 00:18:00 dgenr8 has joined
  35 2014-04-10 00:19:03 one_zero has joined
  36 2014-04-10 00:19:48 <dgenr8> I do believe my clean .bitcoin AWS instance was being fed all kinds of garbage by the nodes it kept connecting to for blockchain dl
  37 2014-04-10 00:20:06 <sipa> why do you think so?
  38 2014-04-10 00:20:48 <dgenr8> 2014-04-10 00:14:02 ProcessBlock: ORPHAN BLOCK 169, prev=0000000000000360cf53553522d0f7d09737482c98059f9662a93fa5bfa68e03
  39 2014-04-10 00:20:50 chairman_meow has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  40 2014-04-10 00:20:57 <sipa> that's totally expected
  41 2014-04-10 00:21:02 <dgenr8> repeated ad nauseam and then gets unresponsive
  42 2014-04-10 00:21:03 lclc has joined
  43 2014-04-10 00:21:18 <sipa> it's just blocks arriving in the wrong order
  44 2014-04-10 00:21:27 <dgenr8> ok
  45 2014-04-10 00:21:33 <dgenr8> ill be more patient
  46 2014-04-10 00:21:44 <sipa> yeah, it recovers on itself, but can take time
  47 2014-04-10 00:21:48 <gmaxwell> AWS servers are usually IO starved, it's expected that it will get slow when processing the blockchain.
  48 2014-04-10 00:22:11 <sipa> the block fetching logic is known to be flaky, and it's being worked on (slowly...)
  49 2014-04-10 00:22:54 <dgenr8> what makes it choke .. too many orphans locally?
  50 2014-04-10 00:23:13 <sipa> no
  51 2014-04-10 00:23:22 <sipa> orphan here means block whose parent isn't known
  52 2014-04-10 00:23:40 KuDeTa has left ()
  53 2014-04-10 00:23:49 davispuh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  54 2014-04-10 00:23:52 <sipa> that can either because of an actual garbage block someone gives you (unlikely, it takes a lot of effort to produce one that isn't immediately thrown out)
  55 2014-04-10 00:24:07 <sipa> but almost always due to the block being received in the wrong order
  56 2014-04-10 00:24:17 <sipa> long chains of blocks, with just one parent somewhere missing
  57 2014-04-10 00:24:34 <sipa> when that parent eventually arrives, all orphans after it immediately get processed too
  58 2014-04-10 00:24:37 <dgenr8> ok,  but why does traffic slow down after a lot of orphans arrive .. i see .. tht one is hard to find?
  59 2014-04-10 00:24:52 <sipa> there's no "finding"
  60 2014-04-10 00:24:58 <sipa> we ask blocks from peers, and they arrive
  61 2014-04-10 00:25:05 <sipa> but they can only be processed in order
  62 2014-04-10 00:25:10 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
  63 2014-04-10 00:25:14 <sipa> you can't process a block if you haven't processed its parent
  64 2014-04-10 00:25:18 <sipa> so we must queue them up
  65 2014-04-10 00:25:31 <midnightmagic> huh. Is there anything special getting gitians for old versions like 0.8.0 ?
  66 2014-04-10 00:25:42 <sipa> define "gitians" ?
  67 2014-04-10 00:25:46 <dgenr8> understood.  but the good blocks fly by at first
  68 2014-04-10 00:25:57 <sipa> dgenr8: there's no good or bad blocks
  69 2014-04-10 00:26:03 <sipa> dgenr8: initially, they just arrive in order
  70 2014-04-10 00:26:06 <midnightmagic> sipa: Going through the gitian build process with a target of 0.8.0, for which there appears to be only two signatures, yours and gavin's.
  71 2014-04-10 00:26:19 <sipa> then once there is one being missed, everything after it queues up
  72 2014-04-10 00:26:30 <sipa> midnightmagic: could be?
  73 2014-04-10 00:26:33 HaltingState has joined
  74 2014-04-10 00:26:45 <midnightmagic> sipa: :) well okay then.
  75 2014-04-10 00:27:02 <sipa> midnightmagic: i still don't know what you mean by "gitians"
  76 2014-04-10 00:27:41 <midnightmagic> sipa: I am using it as a term to refer to the output of the gitian build process; namely, the signatures resulting from gsign.
  77 2014-04-10 00:27:43 SoftwareMechanic has joined
  78 2014-04-10 00:28:30 <sipa> so by "getting gitians", you mean "doing a gitian build" ?
  79 2014-04-10 00:28:34 yubrew has joined
  80 2014-04-10 00:29:10 <dgenr8> sipa: understood, really :)  Is it normal for the same orphan seq# to be repeated hundreds of times eg ORPHAN BLOCK 548 ORPHAN BLOCK 548...
  81 2014-04-10 00:29:26 gimmetime has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
  82 2014-04-10 00:29:28 <sipa> dgenr8: yup, the number is the total count of orphans at that point
  83 2014-04-10 00:29:44 <midnightmagic> sipa: I mean "doing a gitian build and then subsequently being able to generate not only outputs which match against the sigs in gitian.sigs, but also being able to legitimately create a fresh set of signatures which other people can use to gverify after the fact."
  84 2014-04-10 00:29:45 <sipa> dgenr8: so seeing the same number again is good; it means some have been processed in the mean time
  85 2014-04-10 00:29:55 <sipa> midnightmagic: got it!
  86 2014-04-10 00:32:13 <midnightmagic> i don't think it's cleanly possible with plain gitian..
  87 2014-04-10 00:32:26 <sipa> how so?
  88 2014-04-10 00:32:38 <sipa> i think at the time you needed qt or something precompiled
  89 2014-04-10 00:32:51 <sipa> or depended on the day of building
  90 2014-04-10 00:32:58 <midnightmagic> sipa: I'm not even getting matching hashes for bitcoind
  91 2014-04-10 00:33:35 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  92 2014-04-10 00:34:40 <midnightmagic> this suggests a temporal requirement which passes with time, presuming of course I'm not doing something stupid
  93 2014-04-10 00:34:49 <sipa> that sounds likely
  94 2014-04-10 00:35:05 <midnightmagic> what the temporal requirement?
  95 2014-04-10 00:35:10 <midnightmagic> :-P
  96 2014-04-10 00:35:13 <sipa> yes
  97 2014-04-10 00:35:26 <sipa> i have not heard about temporal requirements which do NOT pass with time though
  98 2014-04-10 00:35:29 <sipa> do you have examples?
  99 2014-04-10 00:36:39 <midnightmagic> assuming I know what you mean, many of our customers will save nearly-complete machine state for total recreation of build artifacts.
 100 2014-04-10 00:37:17 <SoftwareMechanic> bip32 question.  When creating wallet nodes, what should I be using for an index for the child nodes?
 101 2014-04-10 00:37:25 <SoftwareMechanic> Can I just start at 1 and increment?
 102 2014-04-10 00:37:38 <SoftwareMechanic> Or is that a bad idea
 103 2014-04-10 00:38:25 <sipa> yes; you should start at 0 and increment :)
 104 2014-04-10 00:38:41 <SoftwareMechanic> ok, cool
 105 2014-04-10 00:39:06 <midnightmagic> so. whatever existed at the time in the build environment would need to be completely re-fetched and inserted into a vm, downgrading it in-place. hrm..
 106 2014-04-10 00:39:21 espringe has quit (Quit: espringe)
 107 2014-04-10 00:39:23 <SoftwareMechanic> Looking at some reference code, it looks like it's appended to the key, then the required hashing is done
 108 2014-04-10 00:43:12 <dgenr8> sipa: it is being limited by MAX_ORPHAN_BLOCKS=750.  Many #751's sequentially with only a few ACCEPTED now and then
 109 2014-04-10 00:43:26 <sipa> dgenr8: yes, after 750 they get dropped from memory
 110 2014-04-10 00:43:33 <sipa> dgenr8: to prevent excessive memory usage
 111 2014-04-10 00:44:04 <dgenr8> if the pool is large it could be dropping the one with the parent I need
 112 2014-04-10 00:45:04 <sipa> no, it drops the last one
 113 2014-04-10 00:45:37 Lao_Ban_1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 114 2014-04-10 00:46:19 jchp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 115 2014-04-10 00:47:03 SoftwareMechanic has quit (Quit: SoftwareMechanic)
 116 2014-04-10 00:47:28 Lao_Ban_ has joined
 117 2014-04-10 00:49:07 llllllllll has quit ()
 118 2014-04-10 00:50:35 DougieBot5000 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 119 2014-04-10 00:50:50 neuroMode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 120 2014-04-10 00:50:59 Lao_Ban_ has quit (Client Quit)
 121 2014-04-10 00:51:14 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 122 2014-04-10 00:51:31 johnsoft has joined
 123 2014-04-10 00:51:39 espringe has joined
 124 2014-04-10 00:51:46 agricocb has joined
 125 2014-04-10 00:52:44 cagedwisdom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 126 2014-04-10 00:52:55 runeks has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 127 2014-04-10 00:53:02 cagedwisdom_ has joined
 128 2014-04-10 00:53:21 runeks has joined
 129 2014-04-10 00:53:38 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 130 2014-04-10 00:53:51 cagedwisdom_ is now known as cagedwisdom
 131 2014-04-10 00:54:20 roconnor_ has joined
 132 2014-04-10 00:54:38 roconnor__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 133 2014-04-10 00:55:13 <dgenr8> sipa: out of 24582 total orphans during load, 19954 are unique hashes
 134 2014-04-10 00:55:24 <dgenr8> so far
 135 2014-04-10 00:55:30 nsh has joined
 136 2014-04-10 00:56:46 rasengan_ has joined
 137 2014-04-10 00:56:50 lclc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 138 2014-04-10 00:57:08 <sipa> and how many total blocks?
 139 2014-04-10 00:57:40 <dgenr8> height=182306
 140 2014-04-10 00:58:04 <sipa> so some 5000 duplicate blocks out of 180000
 141 2014-04-10 00:58:08 <sipa> i've seen worse
 142 2014-04-10 00:58:12 <sipa> but it's bad enough
 143 2014-04-10 00:59:07 <dgenr8> when at max orphans, it seems to be churning.  I'll try increasing the limit.
 144 2014-04-10 01:04:37 <dgenr8> ...bingo, a 30-block hit ... but alas, back to 751 and 2-3 dropped blocks/second
 145 2014-04-10 01:04:41 Guest47489 has joined
 146 2014-04-10 01:09:41 pierreat1ork has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 147 2014-04-10 01:09:41 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 148 2014-04-10 01:11:11 pierreatwork has joined
 149 2014-04-10 01:11:12 pierreat1ork has joined
 150 2014-04-10 01:12:25 rdbell has quit (Quit: rdbell)
 151 2014-04-10 01:12:53 Belxjander has quit (Quit: System Restarting!!!)
 152 2014-04-10 01:17:45 tjopper has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 153 2014-04-10 01:21:10 wumpus has quit (No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 154 2014-04-10 01:21:23 wump has joined
 155 2014-04-10 01:21:38 Aexoden_ has joined
 156 2014-04-10 01:21:42 altgribble` has joined
 157 2014-04-10 01:21:43 Belxjander has joined
 158 2014-04-10 01:22:19 kadoban_ has joined
 159 2014-04-10 01:22:33 wiz_ has joined
 160 2014-04-10 01:22:41 yubrew has joined
 161 2014-04-10 01:22:49 amiller_ has joined
 162 2014-04-10 01:23:12 [\\\\] has joined
 163 2014-04-10 01:23:21 Dagger2 has joined
 164 2014-04-10 01:23:37 parus_ has joined
 165 2014-04-10 01:23:41 DrHaribo_ has joined
 166 2014-04-10 01:23:46 zeiris_ has joined
 167 2014-04-10 01:23:52 paniagua1x has joined
 168 2014-04-10 01:23:57 pizzaman1338 has joined
 169 2014-04-10 01:23:58 K_a_____ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 170 2014-04-10 01:23:59 Michail_MX has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 171 2014-04-10 01:23:59 Elglobo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 172 2014-04-10 01:23:59 phantomcircuit has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 173 2014-04-10 01:23:59 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 174 2014-04-10 01:23:59 EmLeX has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 175 2014-04-10 01:23:59 tonokip has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 176 2014-04-10 01:23:59 CaptainWho has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 177 2014-04-10 01:23:59 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 178 2014-04-10 01:24:00 mmozeiko has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 179 2014-04-10 01:24:00 elgrecoFL has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 180 2014-04-10 01:24:01 Vinnie_win has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 181 2014-04-10 01:24:01 DrHaribo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 182 2014-04-10 01:24:01 tucenaber has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 183 2014-04-10 01:24:01 altgribble has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 184 2014-04-10 01:24:01 unbalanced has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 185 2014-04-10 01:24:01 d9b4bef9 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 186 2014-04-10 01:24:02 wiz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 187 2014-04-10 01:24:02 OneMiner has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 188 2014-04-10 01:24:02 paniaguaxx has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 189 2014-04-10 01:24:02 ArthurNumbanumba has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 190 2014-04-10 01:24:02 trn has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 191 2014-04-10 01:24:02 zacm has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 192 2014-04-10 01:24:02 Aexoden has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 193 2014-04-10 01:24:02 antizionist has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 194 2014-04-10 01:24:02 Sorcier_FXK has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 195 2014-04-10 01:24:02 realazthat has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 196 2014-04-10 01:24:03 parus has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 197 2014-04-10 01:24:03 MagBo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 198 2014-04-10 01:24:03 phungus has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 199 2014-04-10 01:24:03 zeiris has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 200 2014-04-10 01:24:03 Dagger has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 201 2014-04-10 01:24:03 pizzaman1337 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 202 2014-04-10 01:24:03 kadoban has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 203 2014-04-10 01:24:03 CryptoCaptain has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 204 2014-04-10 01:24:03 wumpus has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 205 2014-04-10 01:24:04 phungus_ has joined
 206 2014-04-10 01:24:04 MagBo_ has joined
 207 2014-04-10 01:24:23 mmozeiko has joined
 208 2014-04-10 01:24:31 tucenaber has joined
 209 2014-04-10 01:24:31 tucenaber has quit (Changing host)
 210 2014-04-10 01:24:31 tucenaber has joined
 211 2014-04-10 01:24:31 K_a______ is now known as K_a_____
 212 2014-04-10 01:24:48 elgrecoFL has joined
 213 2014-04-10 01:24:50 ArthurNumbanumba has joined
 214 2014-04-10 01:25:03 EmLeX has joined
 215 2014-04-10 01:25:05 antizionist_ is now known as antizionist
 216 2014-04-10 01:25:32 CryptoCaptain has joined
 217 2014-04-10 01:26:04 Elglobo has joined
 218 2014-04-10 01:26:28 Michail1 has joined
 219 2014-04-10 01:27:02 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 220 2014-04-10 01:27:14 [\\\\] is now known as [\\\]
 221 2014-04-10 01:27:16 jhj1 has joined
 222 2014-04-10 01:27:18 phantomcircuit has joined
 223 2014-04-10 01:27:20 gorran has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 224 2014-04-10 01:27:23 realz has joined
 225 2014-04-10 01:27:27 d9b4bef9 has joined
 226 2014-04-10 01:27:30 unbalanced has joined
 227 2014-04-10 01:27:31 wallet42 has joined
 228 2014-04-10 01:28:10 phantomcircuit is now known as Guest27267
 229 2014-04-10 01:28:29 tlrobinson has joined
 230 2014-04-10 01:28:36 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 231 2014-04-10 01:28:52 kadoban_ has quit (Quit: bye)
 232 2014-04-10 01:29:21 wallet42 has joined
 233 2014-04-10 01:29:31 jordandotdev has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
 234 2014-04-10 01:29:53 CaptainWho_ has quit ()
 235 2014-04-10 01:29:58 OneMiner1 is now known as OneMiner
 236 2014-04-10 01:30:06 jchp has joined
 237 2014-04-10 01:30:28 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 238 2014-04-10 01:30:36 CaptainWho has joined
 239 2014-04-10 01:30:52 <warren> Anyone with Linux distros with glibc 2.13 or older?  need testing soon
 240 2014-04-10 01:31:42 wallet42 has joined
 241 2014-04-10 01:32:07 tlrobinson has quit (Client Quit)
 242 2014-04-10 01:32:38 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 243 2014-04-10 01:32:47 Sorcier_FXK has joined
 244 2014-04-10 01:33:32 wallet42 has joined
 245 2014-04-10 01:33:55 tlrobinson has joined
 246 2014-04-10 01:33:58 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
 247 2014-04-10 01:34:29 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 248 2014-04-10 01:35:04 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 249 2014-04-10 01:35:17 wallet42 has joined
 250 2014-04-10 01:36:21 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 251 2014-04-10 01:37:35 wallet42 has joined
 252 2014-04-10 01:38:13 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 253 2014-04-10 01:38:27 rodarmor has joined
 254 2014-04-10 01:38:45 ielo has joined
 255 2014-04-10 01:39:05 wallet42 has joined
 256 2014-04-10 01:39:11 f0xh0und has joined
 257 2014-04-10 01:40:05 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 258 2014-04-10 01:40:55 wallet42 has joined
 259 2014-04-10 01:41:56 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 260 2014-04-10 01:42:02 jrmithdobbs has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 261 2014-04-10 01:42:26 nsh has joined
 262 2014-04-10 01:42:44 wallet42 has joined
 263 2014-04-10 01:43:19 foxh0und has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 264 2014-04-10 01:43:41 Tiraspol has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 265 2014-04-10 01:43:47 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 266 2014-04-10 01:44:21 MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 267 2014-04-10 01:44:34 wallet42 has joined
 268 2014-04-10 01:45:39 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 269 2014-04-10 01:47:50 jrmithdobbs has joined
 270 2014-04-10 01:54:32 bitblender has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 271 2014-04-10 01:54:47 bitblender has joined
 272 2014-04-10 01:55:47 wallet42 has joined
 273 2014-04-10 01:56:44 Krellan__ has joined
 274 2014-04-10 01:56:51 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 275 2014-04-10 01:57:37 wallet42 has joined
 276 2014-04-10 01:58:26 Krellan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 277 2014-04-10 01:58:42 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 278 2014-04-10 01:59:29 wallet42 has joined
 279 2014-04-10 02:00:23 Emcy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 280 2014-04-10 02:00:34 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 281 2014-04-10 02:03:34 wallet42 has joined
 282 2014-04-10 02:04:42 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 283 2014-04-10 02:04:53 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 284 2014-04-10 02:05:27 wallet42 has joined
 285 2014-04-10 02:05:29 wallet42 has quit (Changing host)
 286 2014-04-10 02:05:30 wallet42 has joined
 287 2014-04-10 02:05:41 Luke-Jr has joined
 288 2014-04-10 02:05:52 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 289 2014-04-10 02:06:20 johnsoft has joined
 290 2014-04-10 02:06:33 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 291 2014-04-10 02:06:59 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
 292 2014-04-10 02:07:17 wallet42 has joined
 293 2014-04-10 02:07:22 rodarmor has quit (Quit: rodarmor)
 294 2014-04-10 02:07:28 brson has joined
 295 2014-04-10 02:08:18 Vinnie_win_w has quit ()
 296 2014-04-10 02:08:24 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 297 2014-04-10 02:09:02 wallet42 has joined
 298 2014-04-10 02:10:14 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 299 2014-04-10 02:10:19 austinhill has joined
 300 2014-04-10 02:10:37 <dgenr8> sipa: regarding the change https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/bbde1e99c893924dbef135f42c14f4df9828c6e5
 301 2014-04-10 02:10:54 <dgenr8> sipa: I think perhaps most of the 750 is connected and not eligible for deletion
 302 2014-04-10 02:10:59 wallet42 has joined
 303 2014-04-10 02:11:50 bkbk has quit ()
 304 2014-04-10 02:12:04 lclc has joined
 305 2014-04-10 02:12:04 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 306 2014-04-10 02:12:07 <dgenr8> sipa: i have seen a few multi-hundred connected subchains go through ... if one gets close to 750 you've got no space
 307 2014-04-10 02:12:30 <dgenr8> sipa: running now with MAX_ORPHAN_BLOCKS=2250
 308 2014-04-10 02:12:49 wallet42 has joined
 309 2014-04-10 02:13:58 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 310 2014-04-10 02:14:44 wallet42 has joined
 311 2014-04-10 02:15:37 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: that isn't how it works, the count there is just or orphan blocks. They are not connected. If you keep restarting it you'll just prolong how long it takes to sync up.
 312 2014-04-10 02:15:48 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 313 2014-04-10 02:16:48 yubrew has joined
 314 2014-04-10 02:18:10 neuroMode has joined
 315 2014-04-10 02:19:17 brson_ has joined
 316 2014-04-10 02:20:04 austinhill has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 317 2014-04-10 02:20:10 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 318 2014-04-10 02:21:14 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 319 2014-04-10 02:21:59 <JWU42> any ideas what this is about (from debug.log)
 320 2014-04-10 02:22:03 <JWU42> https://www.refheap.com/d1645e46d1ee48761ffb60cad
 321 2014-04-10 02:22:17 <JWU42> some googling seems this was pasted here recently
 322 2014-04-10 02:22:40 <JWU42> on common thread seems to be txindex=1 is on
 323 2014-04-10 02:23:07 <JWU42> it has been stuck here with ORPHAN BLOCK 751 for over a minute now
 324 2014-04-10 02:23:26 Gyps has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 325 2014-04-10 02:23:44 <JWU42> https://www.refheap.com/fead0ca410b46ab15199ed6db
 326 2014-04-10 02:24:30 tlrobinson has quit (Quit: tlrobinson)
 327 2014-04-10 02:25:24 brson has joined
 328 2014-04-10 02:26:09 dvide has quit ()
 329 2014-04-10 02:26:25 <JWU42> this is nuts
 330 2014-04-10 02:26:28 <JWU42> https://www.refheap.com/06892d6867d7868b2ee57310c
 331 2014-04-10 02:26:47 brson has quit (Client Quit)
 332 2014-04-10 02:27:02 brson has joined
 333 2014-04-10 02:27:36 <gmaxwell> JWU42: it's not clear to me what problem you're reporting. The orphan blocks during fetch are a known and expected behavior during initial block download which will eventually fixed by the headers first logic.
 334 2014-04-10 02:28:19 brson_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 335 2014-04-10 02:28:24 <JWU42> gmaxwell: yes, this is initial download.  Server was running as an electrum server but was having issues building the electrum DB
 336 2014-04-10 02:28:36 <JWU42> so redowloading the blockchain
 337 2014-04-10 02:28:52 <JWU42> but I am now well past 7500 lines of ORPHAN BLOCK 751
 338 2014-04-10 02:29:12 <gmaxwell> Yes. That isn't unexpected.
 339 2014-04-10 02:29:21 <JWU42> very well
 340 2014-04-10 02:29:46 <JWU42> I guess I haven't watched debug.log in the past
 341 2014-04-10 02:29:55 rodarmor has joined
 342 2014-04-10 02:31:31 <dgenr8> @gmaxwell: the change from 1/2014 deletes orphans to keep it under 750.  but is does not delete orphans connected in a subchain
 343 2014-04-10 02:32:01 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 344 2014-04-10 02:32:16 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 345 2014-04-10 02:32:25 johnsoft has joined
 346 2014-04-10 02:32:50 wc- has quit (Quit: wc-)
 347 2014-04-10 02:32:55 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: sure it does. It prefers to delete the later dependant orphans because they are strictly less useful (cannot help connect the subchain to the chain so far)
 348 2014-04-10 02:33:10 brson has joined
 349 2014-04-10 02:33:34 wallet42 has joined
 350 2014-04-10 02:34:27 <dgenr8> @gmaxwell: how does that mesh with this .. says it chooses randomly? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/bbde1e99c893924dbef135f42c14f4df9828c6e5
 351 2014-04-10 02:34:43 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 352 2014-04-10 02:34:48 <JWU42> all I know is that i have been stuck at block 176694 for 25 minutes and counting while it does this...
 353 2014-04-10 02:35:39 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: It does choose randomly. But it makes absolutely _NO_ sense to drop a parent block which has dependents instead of the last dependant since dropping the parent makes all the dependants unconnectable until the parent is retrieved again.
 354 2014-04-10 02:35:47 dexX7 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 355 2014-04-10 02:35:47 <gmaxwell> JWU42: yep.
 356 2014-04-10 02:36:29 <dgenr8> @gmaxwell: agreed, but I think the large subchains are leaving an insufficient amount of space left
 357 2014-04-10 02:36:43 <gmaxwell> JWU42: it will continue, eventually. This is why we need the headers first change. Unfortunately very few people showed up during 0.9 devlopment to work on or even test the code, so it had to be deferred.
 358 2014-04-10 02:37:11 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: there is no question about "insufficient amount of space left" it's always removing one when it goes to remove one.
 359 2014-04-10 02:37:17 wallet42 has joined
 360 2014-04-10 02:37:23 <dgenr8> with my increased limit I have seen a high water mark of 1256 so far and no stalling
 361 2014-04-10 02:37:26 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 362 2014-04-10 02:37:31 <gmaxwell> And it always removes one which is equal to or less useful than the initial selection.
 363 2014-04-10 02:37:44 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: the orphan count going up is not helpful, it just wastes your memory.
 364 2014-04-10 02:37:48 <JWU42> ahh crud - forgot to tweak teh cache limit
 365 2014-04-10 02:38:25 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 366 2014-04-10 02:38:33 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: and yes, when its pulling down a bunch of orphans restarting it can sometimes (often even) trigger it into immediately making progress again.
 367 2014-04-10 02:38:49 Tiraspol has joined
 368 2014-04-10 02:38:49 Tiraspol has quit (Changing host)
 369 2014-04-10 02:38:49 Tiraspol has joined
 370 2014-04-10 02:39:04 <JWU42> doing that now
 371 2014-04-10 02:39:07 wallet42 has joined
 372 2014-04-10 02:39:10 <dgenr8> yes why is that?
 373 2014-04-10 02:39:28 nsh_ has joined
 374 2014-04-10 02:39:30 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: because it continues pulling forward from the selected sync peer.
 375 2014-04-10 02:39:50 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 376 2014-04-10 02:39:57 <gmaxwell> (until that peer fails and stops responding. In which case it will sit around for a bit until it realizes its gone and continues again)
 377 2014-04-10 02:40:16 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
 378 2014-04-10 02:40:20 aschildbach_ has joined
 379 2014-04-10 02:40:22 <JWU42> restarted and progress
 380 2014-04-10 02:40:26 aschildbach has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 381 2014-04-10 02:40:41 <gmaxwell> the orphans are a side show triggered by new blocks on the network, giving you blocks which are too new to connect to the chain you have so far. They don't really have anything to do with the normal fetching.
 382 2014-04-10 02:40:54 <gmaxwell> JWU42: yes, it would have begun making progress again in a bit on its own.
 383 2014-04-10 02:41:12 <dgenr8> I follow re: delete selection but otoh presumably there is a reason for the pool in the first place
 384 2014-04-10 02:41:17 <JWU42> You are far wiser than I gmaxwell so I'll trust you
 385 2014-04-10 02:41:33 byron has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 386 2014-04-10 02:41:59 <JWU42> it seemed to be eternally stuck
 387 2014-04-10 02:42:00 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 388 2014-04-10 02:42:42 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: sure, there is a reason, to handle blocks arriving out of order normally, not during IBD.
 389 2014-04-10 02:43:36 lclc has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 390 2014-04-10 02:43:36 <gmaxwell> it is unreasonable to batch the chain in memory in reverse order all it will do is out of memory hosts which are 32 bit or have less than 18 gigabytes of free memory.
 391 2014-04-10 02:43:43 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 392 2014-04-10 02:44:17 <dgenr8> that makes sense definitely
 393 2014-04-10 02:45:36 <dgenr8> was there any change in IBD time when the change went in in 1/2014
 394 2014-04-10 02:45:39 brson has joined
 395 2014-04-10 02:45:40 nsh_ has quit (Changing host)
 396 2014-04-10 02:45:40 nsh_ has joined
 397 2014-04-10 02:45:41 nsh_ is now known as nsh
 398 2014-04-10 02:46:07 <dgenr8> 0.9.0 actually
 399 2014-04-10 02:46:10 rdbell has joined
 400 2014-04-10 02:46:22 artifexd_ has joined
 401 2014-04-10 02:47:27 artifexd has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 402 2014-04-10 02:47:28 artifexd_ is now known as artifexd
 403 2014-04-10 02:49:52 rnvk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 404 2014-04-10 02:50:25 Tiraspol has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 405 2014-04-10 02:50:38 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 406 2014-04-10 02:50:51 johnsoft has joined
 407 2014-04-10 02:50:55 koolhaas has joined
 408 2014-04-10 02:50:59 sbrossie has joined
 409 2014-04-10 02:51:38 f0xh0und has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 410 2014-04-10 02:52:09 rdbell has quit (Quit: rdbell)
 411 2014-04-10 02:53:03 amiller_ is now known as amiller
 412 2014-04-10 02:53:33 amiller is now known as Guest89113
 413 2014-04-10 02:53:41 lnovy has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 414 2014-04-10 02:54:11 espringe has quit (Quit: espringe)
 415 2014-04-10 02:55:34 lnovy has joined
 416 2014-04-10 02:56:08 Jere_Jones has joined
 417 2014-04-10 02:56:26 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 418 2014-04-10 02:57:07 espringe has joined
 419 2014-04-10 02:57:25 johnsoft has joined
 420 2014-04-10 02:58:28 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
 421 2014-04-10 02:59:03 rnvk has joined
 422 2014-04-10 02:59:48 byron has joined
 423 2014-04-10 02:59:50 lnovy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 424 2014-04-10 03:00:56 Subo1977 has joined
 425 2014-04-10 03:03:38 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 426 2014-04-10 03:04:05 beachandbytes has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 427 2014-04-10 03:04:36 johnsoft has joined
 428 2014-04-10 03:05:28 Subo1977_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 429 2014-04-10 03:06:04 Aido has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 430 2014-04-10 03:06:09 sdamashek has quit (Quit: Bouncer Station ZNC)
 431 2014-04-10 03:06:16 f0xhound has joined
 432 2014-04-10 03:07:23 <dgenr8> what if during ibd the orphan pool got into a state where there was a chain 749 long, disconnected from tip by 100 or so
 433 2014-04-10 03:08:10 Aido has joined
 434 2014-04-10 03:08:24 roconnor_ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 435 2014-04-10 03:10:24 <dgenr8> might try an idea ... pruning orphan subchains at max/3
 436 2014-04-10 03:10:50 yubrew has joined
 437 2014-04-10 03:10:51 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: you're wasting your time fussing with that.
 438 2014-04-10 03:11:25 <gmaxwell> the orphan pool is largely irrelevant to IBD... and if you want to be doing development to improve in this space you should be reviewing and testing the patches that are phasing in headers first.
 439 2014-04-10 03:12:15 artifexd has quit ()
 440 2014-04-10 03:12:31 artifexd has joined
 441 2014-04-10 03:12:51 rdbell has joined
 442 2014-04-10 03:13:35 eoss has joined
 443 2014-04-10 03:14:57 OneMiner has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 444 2014-04-10 03:15:02 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 445 2014-04-10 03:15:07 Application has joined
 446 2014-04-10 03:15:39 <dgenr8> @gmaxwell: just scratching an itch. now I got curious about ibd though.  i'll take a look at the headers work.  thank you
 447 2014-04-10 03:15:56 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 448 2014-04-10 03:16:19 Luke-Jr has joined
 449 2014-04-10 03:16:46 Guest89113 is now known as amiller_
 450 2014-04-10 03:17:01 Tiraspol has joined
 451 2014-04-10 03:19:14 Jere_Jones has quit ()
 452 2014-04-10 03:19:53 OneMiner has joined
 453 2014-04-10 03:20:20 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 454 2014-04-10 03:20:43 Luke-Jr has joined
 455 2014-04-10 03:21:21 neuroMood has joined
 456 2014-04-10 03:21:21 neuroMode has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 457 2014-04-10 03:23:32 neuroMood has quit (Client Quit)
 458 2014-04-10 03:23:40 roconnor has joined
 459 2014-04-10 03:23:50 neuroMode has joined
 460 2014-04-10 03:23:54 sdamashek__ has joined
 461 2014-04-10 03:24:43 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 462 2014-04-10 03:28:26 Luke-Jr has joined
 463 2014-04-10 03:28:35 bkbk has joined
 464 2014-04-10 03:30:22 phrackage has joined
 465 2014-04-10 03:30:50 sdamashek__ is now known as sdamasek
 466 2014-04-10 03:31:05 sdamasek is now known as sdamashek
 467 2014-04-10 03:31:17 roidster has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [SeaMonkey 2.22.1/20131113180422])
 468 2014-04-10 03:32:24 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 469 2014-04-10 03:33:38 pierreat1ork has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 470 2014-04-10 03:33:59 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 471 2014-04-10 03:34:19 VossArtesian has joined
 472 2014-04-10 03:34:42 bkbk has quit ()
 473 2014-04-10 03:35:54 hoffmabc has joined
 474 2014-04-10 03:36:04 Luke-Jr has joined
 475 2014-04-10 03:36:08 go1111111 has joined
 476 2014-04-10 03:37:01 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 477 2014-04-10 03:37:35 so has joined
 478 2014-04-10 03:37:58 johnsoft has joined
 479 2014-04-10 03:39:18 Blackreign has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 480 2014-04-10 03:39:40 emowataji has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 481 2014-04-10 03:40:04 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 482 2014-04-10 03:40:18 Adlai has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 483 2014-04-10 03:40:59 danielpbarron has quit (Quit: Jesus Caused 9/11 http://atruechurch.info/)
 484 2014-04-10 03:41:16 emowataji has joined
 485 2014-04-10 03:41:38 TheSeven has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 486 2014-04-10 03:43:04 TheSeven has joined
 487 2014-04-10 03:43:27 hoffmabc has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
 488 2014-04-10 03:44:13 Luke-Jr has joined
 489 2014-04-10 03:45:06 Blackreign has joined
 490 2014-04-10 03:45:13 flound1129 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 491 2014-04-10 03:46:05 danielpbarron has joined
 492 2014-04-10 03:46:38 Soligor has quit (Quit: Soligor)
 493 2014-04-10 03:46:59 byron has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 494 2014-04-10 03:47:26 Techguy305 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 495 2014-04-10 03:49:16 uiop has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 496 2014-04-10 03:49:47 sbrossie has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 497 2014-04-10 03:50:40 Adlai has joined
 498 2014-04-10 03:50:41 byron_ has joined
 499 2014-04-10 03:53:44 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
 500 2014-04-10 03:54:46 beachandbytes has joined
 501 2014-04-10 03:55:00 olalonde has joined
 502 2014-04-10 03:56:29 amiller_ is now known as amiller
 503 2014-04-10 03:56:33 amiller has quit (Changing host)
 504 2014-04-10 03:56:33 amiller has joined
 505 2014-04-10 04:00:39 rdbell has quit (Quit: rdbell)
 506 2014-04-10 04:00:49 hsmiths has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 507 2014-04-10 04:00:51 pecket has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 508 2014-04-10 04:03:02 hsmiths has joined
 509 2014-04-10 04:04:07 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 510 2014-04-10 04:05:04 yubrew has joined
 511 2014-04-10 04:05:21 rdbell has joined
 512 2014-04-10 04:09:26 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 513 2014-04-10 04:14:34 Lao_Ban_ has joined
 514 2014-04-10 04:15:33 sbrossie has joined
 515 2014-04-10 04:17:58 darwin_ has joined
 516 2014-04-10 04:18:04 espringe has quit (Quit: espringe)
 517 2014-04-10 04:19:23 tlrobinson has joined
 518 2014-04-10 04:20:49 lnovy has joined
 519 2014-04-10 04:23:52 Ademan has quit (Quit: leaving)
 520 2014-04-10 04:27:20 espringe has joined
 521 2014-04-10 04:28:16 sbrossie has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 522 2014-04-10 04:28:48 mr_burde_ has joined
 523 2014-04-10 04:32:01 mr_burdell has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 524 2014-04-10 04:34:09 espringe has quit (Quit: espringe)
 525 2014-04-10 04:34:26 rodarmor has quit (Quit: rodarmor)
 526 2014-04-10 04:42:49 venzen has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 527 2014-04-10 04:44:20 venzen has joined
 528 2014-04-10 04:45:45 Lao_Ban_ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 529 2014-04-10 04:45:45 byron_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 530 2014-04-10 04:45:55 cadaver has joined
 531 2014-04-10 04:47:26 omefire1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 532 2014-04-10 04:50:31 lnovy_ has joined
 533 2014-04-10 04:51:28 <vetch> -printtoconsole and -logtimestamps seem to be incompatible
 534 2014-04-10 04:51:29 omefire1 has joined
 535 2014-04-10 04:51:44 <vetch> is that intended for some reason?
 536 2014-04-10 04:52:51 lnovy has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 537 2014-04-10 04:55:12 <olalonde> Hola
 538 2014-04-10 04:55:16 lnovy_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 539 2014-04-10 04:55:32 lnovy has joined
 540 2014-04-10 04:57:52 lnovy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 541 2014-04-10 04:58:34 darwin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 542 2014-04-10 04:59:08 yubrew has joined
 543 2014-04-10 04:59:17 dgenr8 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 544 2014-04-10 05:00:32 lnovy has joined
 545 2014-04-10 05:01:50 tlrobinson has quit (Quit: tlrobinson)
 546 2014-04-10 05:04:00 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 547 2014-04-10 05:05:21 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 548 2014-04-10 05:09:50 lnovy has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 549 2014-04-10 05:10:32 the_2nd has joined
 550 2014-04-10 05:11:29 roconnor has joined
 551 2014-04-10 05:12:02 venzen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 552 2014-04-10 05:12:04 christophe has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 553 2014-04-10 05:12:37 byron_ has joined
 554 2014-04-10 05:13:25 peck has joined
 555 2014-04-10 05:13:56 venzen has joined
 556 2014-04-10 05:14:04 christophe has joined
 557 2014-04-10 05:14:31 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 558 2014-04-10 05:14:40 johnsoft has joined
 559 2014-04-10 05:14:51 rasengan_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 560 2014-04-10 05:14:59 rasengan_ has joined
 561 2014-04-10 05:15:24 rasengan- has joined
 562 2014-04-10 05:15:53 bitblender has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 563 2014-04-10 05:16:42 bitblender has joined
 564 2014-04-10 05:16:43 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 565 2014-04-10 05:17:01 espringe has joined
 566 2014-04-10 05:17:44 draino_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 567 2014-04-10 05:18:05 rasengan_ has quit (Client Quit)
 568 2014-04-10 05:18:38 byron_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 569 2014-04-10 05:20:12 mrkent has joined
 570 2014-04-10 05:20:29 paveljanik has joined
 571 2014-04-10 05:20:30 paveljanik has quit (Changing host)
 572 2014-04-10 05:20:30 paveljanik has joined
 573 2014-04-10 05:20:31 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 574 2014-04-10 05:21:26 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 575 2014-04-10 05:21:48 the_2nd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 576 2014-04-10 05:23:16 roconnor has joined
 577 2014-04-10 05:24:48 Nunacoin has joined
 578 2014-04-10 05:24:49 akrmn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 579 2014-04-10 05:25:11 <Nunacoin> Hello all
 580 2014-04-10 05:25:19 rasengan- has left ("WeeChat 0.3.7")
 581 2014-04-10 05:25:29 roconnor has quit (Client Quit)
 582 2014-04-10 05:25:54 <Nunacoin> I'm starting a new coin to fully integrate Bitcoin and BOINC
 583 2014-04-10 05:26:28 <Nunacoin> Is there anyone who's interested in joining? :)
 584 2014-04-10 05:27:32 dabb has joined
 585 2014-04-10 05:28:28 <warren> There might be more coins than developers.
 586 2014-04-10 05:28:36 <vetch> Nunacoin: this is off topic.
 587 2014-04-10 05:28:52 <vetch> warren: http://mapofcoins.com/ < yep
 588 2014-04-10 05:28:52 coeus has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 589 2014-04-10 05:29:40 <vetch> Nunacoin: you also really need to read up on how distributed consensus works. it's completely incompatible with BOINC.
 590 2014-04-10 05:29:55 VossArtesian has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 591 2014-04-10 05:31:04 <Nunacoin> vetch:sorry for the offtopic, but this is the first place came on my mind to look for a help ^^
 592 2014-04-10 05:31:19 greenspa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 593 2014-04-10 05:32:09 VossArtesian has joined
 594 2014-04-10 05:32:43 Jon_Vaage has joined
 595 2014-04-10 05:32:45 jonvaage has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 596 2014-04-10 05:33:07 greenspa has joined
 597 2014-04-10 05:33:51 <Nunacoin> vetch: went to read :)
 598 2014-04-10 05:33:54 greenspa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 599 2014-04-10 05:34:54 johnsoft has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 600 2014-04-10 05:35:15 toffoo has joined
 601 2014-04-10 05:35:19 espringe has quit (Quit: espringe)
 602 2014-04-10 05:35:38 johnsoft has joined
 603 2014-04-10 05:37:52 greenspa has joined
 604 2014-04-10 05:43:21 dkog has joined
 605 2014-04-10 05:43:39 greenspa has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 606 2014-04-10 05:44:33 paracyst has joined
 607 2014-04-10 05:44:41 lnovy has joined
 608 2014-04-10 05:44:45 dkog has quit (Client Quit)
 609 2014-04-10 05:45:09 dkog has joined
 610 2014-04-10 05:46:34 greenspa has joined
 611 2014-04-10 05:47:24 uiop has joined
 612 2014-04-10 05:48:51 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 613 2014-04-10 05:49:13 johnsoft has joined
 614 2014-04-10 05:50:33 bitblender has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 615 2014-04-10 05:50:33 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 616 2014-04-10 05:50:45 bitblender has joined
 617 2014-04-10 05:53:14 yubrew has joined
 618 2014-04-10 05:53:27 wiz_ is now known as wiz
 619 2014-04-10 05:54:42 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 620 2014-04-10 05:55:28 johnsoft has joined
 621 2014-04-10 05:57:26 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 622 2014-04-10 05:57:34 VossArtesian_ has joined
 623 2014-04-10 05:57:50 Lao_Ban_ has joined
 624 2014-04-10 05:58:31 VossArtesian has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 625 2014-04-10 05:58:36 edcba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 626 2014-04-10 05:58:36 VossArtesian_ is now known as VossArtesian
 627 2014-04-10 05:59:19 cadaver has quit (Quit: macbook pro 15 inch)
 628 2014-04-10 05:59:45 [\\\] is now known as `0
 629 2014-04-10 06:00:27 VossArtesian has quit (Client Quit)
 630 2014-04-10 06:03:51 jtcwang has joined
 631 2014-04-10 06:04:02 `0 is now known as [\\\]
 632 2014-04-10 06:04:26 Zifre has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 633 2014-04-10 06:08:15 McKay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 634 2014-04-10 06:10:14 McKay has joined
 635 2014-04-10 06:14:51 rdbell has quit (Quit: rdbell)
 636 2014-04-10 06:14:53 byron has joined
 637 2014-04-10 06:14:58 xdotcomm_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 638 2014-04-10 06:15:00 tlrobinson has joined
 639 2014-04-10 06:15:42 xdotcommer has joined
 640 2014-04-10 06:15:51 jordandotdev has joined
 641 2014-04-10 06:17:49 mortale has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 642 2014-04-10 06:19:09 mortale has joined
 643 2014-04-10 06:20:53 bebopzzz has joined
 644 2014-04-10 06:22:36 Chief_Panda has joined
 645 2014-04-10 06:23:07 phantomspark has joined
 646 2014-04-10 06:24:36 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 647 2014-04-10 06:27:25 VossArtesian has joined
 648 2014-04-10 06:28:23 theymos has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 649 2014-04-10 06:29:17 bebopzzz has quit (Quit: bebopzzz)
 650 2014-04-10 06:30:23 papa3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 651 2014-04-10 06:31:18 papa3 has joined
 652 2014-04-10 06:31:55 MoALTz has joined
 653 2014-04-10 06:33:33 uiop has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 654 2014-04-10 06:34:18 theymos has joined
 655 2014-04-10 06:34:49 MoALTz_ has joined
 656 2014-04-10 06:35:37 MoALTz_ has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
 657 2014-04-10 06:36:06 MoALTz_ has joined
 658 2014-04-10 06:36:35 MoALTz_ has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
 659 2014-04-10 06:36:57 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 660 2014-04-10 06:38:04 MoALTz has joined
 661 2014-04-10 06:38:13 Lao_Ban_ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 662 2014-04-10 06:39:33 kadoban has joined
 663 2014-04-10 06:40:27 MoALTz has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
 664 2014-04-10 06:40:49 edcba has joined
 665 2014-04-10 06:41:35 MoALTz has joined
 666 2014-04-10 06:44:32 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 667 2014-04-10 06:47:24 yubrew has joined
 668 2014-04-10 06:47:26 kadoban has quit (Quit: bye)
 669 2014-04-10 06:47:44 kadoban has joined
 670 2014-04-10 06:51:26 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 671 2014-04-10 06:54:12 eristisk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 672 2014-04-10 06:54:15 <warren> wump: coryfields: do the other distros support debuginfo in separate files?
 673 2014-04-10 06:54:26 <warren> hmm, no wumpus
 674 2014-04-10 06:54:37 eristisk has joined
 675 2014-04-10 06:54:48 <coryfields> warren: of course
 676 2014-04-10 06:54:51 tarantillo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 677 2014-04-10 06:54:53 <coryfields> that's what -dbg packages are
 678 2014-04-10 06:55:00 djcoin_ has joined
 679 2014-04-10 06:55:11 tarantillo_ has joined
 680 2014-04-10 06:55:38 damethos has joined
 681 2014-04-10 06:55:40 <wump> warren: why would that need distribution support?
 682 2014-04-10 06:55:51 <wump> warren: oh right, for tha ppa that'd make sense
 683 2014-04-10 06:55:55 byron has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 684 2014-04-10 06:55:58 wumpus is now known as wumpus
 685 2014-04-10 06:56:57 <warren> ok good
 686 2014-04-10 06:57:16 <Luke-Jr> warren: Gentoo FEATURES=splitdebug
 687 2014-04-10 06:57:31 <warren> well, if the separate debuginfo is a standard, then the gitian debuginfo could be installed there too
 688 2014-04-10 06:57:43 <Luke-Jr> most users might not want to download it :p
 689 2014-04-10 06:57:51 <warren> if they get crashes they can follow a guide
 690 2014-04-10 06:57:55 <wumpus> no no no, we don't want to package the debug info, just build it for ourselves
 691 2014-04-10 06:58:05 <Luke-Jr> half the point of split debuginfo is so that you can open core dumps in gdb on another system.
 692 2014-04-10 06:58:12 <Luke-Jr> but that's bad
 693 2014-04-10 06:58:14 <Luke-Jr> for bitcoin
 694 2014-04-10 06:58:21 <wumpus> mind that gitian releases are usually not 'installed' at all, just copied somewhere
 695 2014-04-10 06:58:23 HaltingState has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 696 2014-04-10 06:58:29 <coryfields> well, for bitcoin, the discussion is pretty much irrelevant
 697 2014-04-10 06:58:31 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 698 2014-04-10 06:58:36 <wumpus> (apart from the PPA and distro-specific packages)
 699 2014-04-10 06:58:38 <coryfields> since the full (unstripped) binary can be regenerated
 700 2014-04-10 06:58:41 <warren> if they get crashes from the deterministic gitian build, they can follow a guide that tells htem to download the matching debuginfo and how to use it.
 701 2014-04-10 06:58:54 benrcole has joined
 702 2014-04-10 06:59:25 <coryfields> warren: debug symbols don't do users any good. they send a core dump, we pair it with debug syms in a debugger to get a useful backtrace
 703 2014-04-10 06:59:27 <wumpus> warren: sure; for power users that could be useful
 704 2014-04-10 06:59:48 <warren> coryfields: we want to avoid a situation where they need to send a core dump ...
 705 2014-04-10 06:59:50 dims has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 706 2014-04-10 07:00:00 <Luke-Jr> coryfields: O.O no plz
 707 2014-04-10 07:00:03 <wumpus> coryfields: we want to limit their dependence on 'us' as much as possible
 708 2014-04-10 07:00:11 <wumpus> coryfields: people that can debug themselves, should
 709 2014-04-10 07:00:12 <coryfields> warren: better write better code then...
 710 2014-04-10 07:00:14 debiantoruser has joined
 711 2014-04-10 07:00:34 <Luke-Jr> coryfields: core dumps will have ECDSA private keys.
 712 2014-04-10 07:00:44 <Luke-Jr> we should probably even set ulimit to disable core dumps ourselves..
 713 2014-04-10 07:01:01 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 714 2014-04-10 07:01:04 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well in the someday when we seperate processes they won't. :P
 715 2014-04-10 07:01:12 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: depends on what crashed ;)
 716 2014-04-10 07:01:20 W0rmDr1nk has joined
 717 2014-04-10 07:01:31 <coryfields> Luke-Jr: right, apologies
 718 2014-04-10 07:01:34 <gmaxwell> but we should make the symbols available, since there are technical people who will do debugging that won't have a gitian setup to build them themselves.
 719 2014-04-10 07:01:36 <wumpus> I don't think warren's idea is bad, though let's first make gitian spit out the debug symbol files, after that we can determine whether and how to distribute them
 720 2014-04-10 07:01:41 <gmaxwell> yea
 721 2014-04-10 07:01:42 <coryfields> still seems moot given the determinism though
 722 2014-04-10 07:02:18 <Luke-Jr> determinism doesn't help w/o debug symbols
 723 2014-04-10 07:02:35 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I mean you can go rebuild and get the debug symbols that way.
 724 2014-04-10 07:02:39 <coryfields> Luke-Jr: you can generate them at will...
 725 2014-04-10 07:02:53 <warren> coryfields: if it takes X effort to make a standard build and X+3 effort to make a gitian build to debug
 726 2014-04-10 07:03:00 <coryfields> point was, compared to other projects where the final build process is sacred, there's no policy decision to be made here
 727 2014-04-10 07:03:04 <wumpus> coryfields:right now  it means having to run gitian with a different descriptor any time you want to generate debug executables, would be more useful if they were always generated
 728 2014-04-10 07:03:09 <warren> it's probably X-10 effort to download the debuginfo for the gitian build instead of building
 729 2014-04-10 07:03:20 <Luke-Jr> coryfields: if you can, then you might as well always generate them *shrgu*
 730 2014-04-10 07:03:26 <Luke-Jr> uses a tiny bit more RAM during build
 731 2014-04-10 07:03:36 <coryfields> Luke-Jr: sure, agreed
 732 2014-04-10 07:03:53 <coryfields> i'm not arguing anything, just saying that anyone can do it at any point. so just do it already :)
 733 2014-04-10 07:04:04 <warren> yes, gitian spits out the stripped and debuginfo separate
 734 2014-04-10 07:04:12 <wumpus> coryfields: but it's autotools changes! we need you! lol
 735 2014-04-10 07:04:16 <warren> err, in all builds
 736 2014-04-10 07:04:22 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it shouldn't be..
 737 2014-04-10 07:04:23 <coryfields> wumpus: no it's not
 738 2014-04-10 07:04:34 <coryfields> just don't strip the binary in gitian
 739 2014-04-10 07:04:38 <wumpus> well the build process already strips the executables
 740 2014-04-10 07:04:44 <wumpus> not the gitian script
 741 2014-04-10 07:05:11 <warren> The host outside of gitian might lack tools to strip the binary outside, or might strip it in a way that differs from other hosts.
 742 2014-04-10 07:05:15 <coryfields> wumpus: ok ok.. how bout 'make debug-symbols' or so?
 743 2014-04-10 07:05:22 <coryfields> will do tomorrow if that's what you're after.
 744 2014-04-10 07:05:27 <Luke-Jr> O.o
 745 2014-04-10 07:05:39 <Luke-Jr> --disable-strip
 746 2014-04-10 07:05:41 <Luke-Jr> :P
 747 2014-04-10 07:05:53 <wumpus> coryfields: or doesn't the make install_strip strip the executable that is built, just the one that is installed?
 748 2014-04-10 07:06:23 <coryfields> wumpus: make install_strip just strips it and sticks it in the install prefix
 749 2014-04-10 07:06:35 <coryfields> we use the install prefix to mean where we want the target binary to end up
 750 2014-04-10 07:06:45 <wumpus> coryfields: so it does strip the executable in the build directory as well
 751 2014-04-10 07:06:46 <coryfields> you could just as easily grab the binary, and split/strip it manually
 752 2014-04-10 07:07:00 easye has joined
 753 2014-04-10 07:07:02 <coryfields> wumpus: iirc it uses 'strip input output'
 754 2014-04-10 07:07:09 <coryfields> since strip prefers not to strip in-place
 755 2014-04-10 07:07:51 <wumpus> coryfields: good! then we can just split it manually, without having to call make more times (which can be really slow)
 756 2014-04-10 07:08:04 <coryfields> wumpus: it's really just a matter of convenience. let me know how you'd prefer it and i'll hook it up
 757 2014-04-10 07:08:14 <warren> please correct me if I'm wrong, you want the tools inside gitian to do stripping if you want it to be deterministic right?
 758 2014-04-10 07:08:33 <Luke-Jr> what Gentoo does, is 'make install' to get unstripped binaries, then does the split/strip itself
 759 2014-04-10 07:09:23 <warren> Fedora does that too, stripped binary goes into packagename-VERSION.rpm and a separate packagename-debuginfo-VERSION.rpm is also output
 760 2014-04-10 07:09:51 <wumpus> warren: yes, we are talking about doing it in the gitian descriptors; I thought it'd need autotools changes, but that turned out not to be the case
 761 2014-04-10 07:09:58 <Luke-Jr> I wonder if there's a simple script on Ubuntu (or better, platform-independent) we can just run in gitian
 762 2014-04-10 07:10:16 <wumpus> a simple script? it's already super-easy to do
 763 2014-04-10 07:10:22 <coryfields> Luke-Jr: sure, debian kinda revolves around those
 764 2014-04-10 07:10:26 davout has quit (Quit: kthxbye)
 765 2014-04-10 07:10:55 rmwb has joined
 766 2014-04-10 07:11:00 <coryfields> (and ubuntu as a consequence)
 767 2014-04-10 07:11:50 <wumpus> (though I wouldn't dare to say whether the debug symbols themselves are deterministic)
 768 2014-04-10 07:11:58 <coryfields> you guys are really overcomplicating :)
 769 2014-04-10 07:12:15 <wumpus> coryfields: yes, it's just a objcopy --only-keep-debug line per executable as you said
 770 2014-04-10 07:12:21 <coryfields> there's a binary, we strip it. we can grab it at any point and do whatever we want with it
 771 2014-04-10 07:12:31 dims has joined
 772 2014-04-10 07:12:38 <Luke-Jr> there's multiple binaries :P
 773 2014-04-10 07:13:19 <wumpus> coryfields: btw; a different question, we pass --disable-dependency-tracking to configure while building bitcoin, does this mean that every 'make' call will do the entire build? (because it ignores the dependencies that are already there)
 774 2014-04-10 07:13:35 stalled has joined
 775 2014-04-10 07:13:43 <wumpus> coryfields: I noticed that in the windows build at least, quite some duplicate building happens
 776 2014-04-10 07:13:51 <coryfields> wumpus: nah, it just means that it can't tell what needs to be rebuilt if something changes
 777 2014-04-10 07:13:54 uiop has joined
 778 2014-04-10 07:14:02 <wumpus> ok... must have another reason then
 779 2014-04-10 07:14:08 <coryfields> so if you touch a .h, the correct .cpps won't be rebuilt as a result
 780 2014-04-10 07:14:27 <coryfields> we use that because that tracking can get in the way of determinism
 781 2014-04-10 07:14:32 <wumpus> thanks for explaining
 782 2014-04-10 07:14:35 <wumpus> yeah I figured
 783 2014-04-10 07:14:50 <coryfields> np
 784 2014-04-10 07:15:27 <coryfields> wumpus: we also mess with the maintainer rules. those make it so that if you touch (for example) Makefile.am, automake will re-run
 785 2014-04-10 07:15:37 <coryfields> with those disabled, you're on your own for that stuff
 786 2014-04-10 07:16:36 <coryfields> iirc we change that one because faketime screws with it
 787 2014-04-10 07:16:53 endofcrypto has joined
 788 2014-04-10 07:16:57 <wumpus> I noticed; the timestamps can get in the way there, causing makefile to be rebuilt time after time, it's painful to watch :)
 789 2014-04-10 07:17:13 <coryfields> yea
 790 2014-04-10 07:17:28 <coryfields> that's one of the reasons i spent so much time fixing up binutils
 791 2014-04-10 07:17:38 <coryfields> if we moved to trusty, we could kill off faketime :)
 792 2014-04-10 07:17:52 <hno> Is there any established practice for how to generate orphan block chains? I guess that temporarily isolating some bitcoin nodes on testnet while mining should do the trick?
 793 2014-04-10 07:17:53 <coryfields> (my patches are included in trusty's binutils)
 794 2014-04-10 07:17:55 <wumpus> yes congratulations on that, especially on getting it upstream :)
 795 2014-04-10 07:18:45 <Luke-Jr> hno: orphan block chain would be deleting a parent block :P
 796 2014-04-10 07:19:06 <coryfields> i'm very much on gmaxwell's side there. lots has changed in the compiler world in the last few years
 797 2014-04-10 07:19:14 <coryfields> but that's a different discussion and it's bed time :)
 798 2014-04-10 07:19:23 <wumpus> so, let's switch to trusty tahr for building? can you handle all the symbols?
 799 2014-04-10 07:20:02 <hno> Luke-Jr, stale blocks then?
 800 2014-04-10 07:20:12 <gmaxwell> coryfields: I might be a bit biased just because there are a number of miscompilation bugs I found that were fixed in 4.7 and 4.8. :P
 801 2014-04-10 07:20:39 <coryfields> gmaxwell: i found 4.7 to be a complete dud, personally
 802 2014-04-10 07:20:43 <wumpus> it's be almost impossible to get the resulting executables to run on older distributions, and patching over the libc++ version gap would involve importing all the c11++ symbols into bitcoin ....
 803 2014-04-10 07:20:45 <coryfields> seems like it was just trying to piss me off
 804 2014-04-10 07:20:50 <coryfields> wumpus: you're not going to bait me that easily :)
 805 2014-04-10 07:21:17 <wumpus> but if we just use static building for compatibility on the other hand... :-)
 806 2014-04-10 07:21:31 <warren> hno: try -regtest
 807 2014-04-10 07:21:53 <warren> hno: it's much easier to make competing forks and test software on reorg behavior there.
 808 2014-04-10 07:22:23 <coryfields> gmaxwell: on the flip-side though, i don't have a single complaint about 4.8. I'd be curious to hear what you've run into
 809 2014-04-10 07:23:21 <coryfields> (though by that time, i'd pretty much gone full-clang, so maybe i didn't try as hard to break 4.8)
 810 2014-04-10 07:23:55 <gmaxwell> I'm pretty good at breaking stuff.
 811 2014-04-10 07:24:48 <wumpus> how does that work with clang, does it use the same libc++ as gcc?
 812 2014-04-10 07:24:55 Eiii has quit ()
 813 2014-04-10 07:25:12 <coryfields> wumpus: for now, for linux, it uses libstdc++ by default
 814 2014-04-10 07:25:31 <coryfields> (careful saying libc++, that very specifically means the exact opposite of what you wanted ;)
 815 2014-04-10 07:25:39 <warren> would you be in favor of a deterministic build of gcc/clang, and a set of matching symbols in the compat library?
 816 2014-04-10 07:25:41 <wumpus> if not, it'd be an option to switch to clang for gitian building (at least for linux target)
 817 2014-04-10 07:26:05 Grouver has joined
 818 2014-04-10 07:26:23 <coryfields> imo the most reasonable choice for gitian is whatever is closest to what devs use day-to-day
 819 2014-04-10 07:26:40 <warren> gitian during 0.8 different substantially from that
 820 2014-04-10 07:26:54 <warren> it's a little closer now but falling behind again
 821 2014-04-10 07:27:02 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 822 2014-04-10 07:27:06 gimmetime has joined
 823 2014-04-10 07:27:06 <coryfields> shipping binaries that are substantially different from what a dev has ever run is just a bad idea.
 824 2014-04-10 07:27:07 <wumpus> coryfields: btw... couldn't we just link libstdc++ statically to avoid the issue?
 825 2014-04-10 07:27:24 <wumpus> coryfields: we'd still need to patch over GLIBC symbols, but not libstdc++
 826 2014-04-10 07:27:40 <coryfields> wumpus: yea, that was my original plan. unfortunately, ubuntu's packagers didn't play nice with my plan.
 827 2014-04-10 07:27:47 <wumpus> ugh
 828 2014-04-10 07:27:52 <warren> if we replace gcc that might work
 829 2014-04-10 07:27:57 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: no.
 830 2014-04-10 07:28:10 <Luke-Jr> pretty sure GNU's libc stuff is LGPL
 831 2014-04-10 07:28:13 <Luke-Jr> and we use OpenSSL
 832 2014-04-10 07:28:18 <coryfields> precice's libstdc++ is built without -fPIC
 833 2014-04-10 07:28:20 <warren> oh damn
 834 2014-04-10 07:28:22 <warren> liense
 835 2014-04-10 07:28:23 <Luke-Jr> a static binary of that would be illegal to distrbiute
 836 2014-04-10 07:28:24 <warren> license
 837 2014-04-10 07:28:28 * gmaxwell shakes his fist at the payment protocol
 838 2014-04-10 07:28:30 <wumpus> coryfields: let me guess, you ran into -fPIC problems
 839 2014-04-10 07:28:38 <warren> Luke-Jr: then the windows build is already illegal
 840 2014-04-10 07:28:44 <gmaxwell> we're _so_ close to not needing openssl at all. :P
 841 2014-04-10 07:28:48 <Luke-Jr> warren: it shouldn't be using GNU libs?
 842 2014-04-10 07:28:54 <wumpus> gmaxwell: well, if we just drop the wallet...
 843 2014-04-10 07:28:58 <wumpus> :P
 844 2014-04-10 07:28:59 <coryfields> there's an exemption for static glibc
 845 2014-04-10 07:29:01 debiantoruser has joined
 846 2014-04-10 07:29:07 <coryfields> and libstdc++ as well iirc
 847 2014-04-10 07:29:47 <wumpus> how can our distribution ever be illegal? everything is open source
 848 2014-04-10 07:29:52 <wumpus> it's even provable due to gitian
 849 2014-04-10 07:30:04 <gmaxwell> openssl has a stupid license.
 850 2014-04-10 07:30:29 <coryfields> wumpus: you'll find companies who won't let gpl in their building
 851 2014-04-10 07:30:36 <coryfields> if that's, for ex, bitpay.. that's a problem
 852 2014-04-10 07:30:49 <wumpus> coryfields: I know. But that's not our problem, is it?
 853 2014-04-10 07:30:58 <wumpus> coryfields: they don't have to use the gitian build
 854 2014-04-10 07:31:03 Starduster has joined
 855 2014-04-10 07:31:15 <coryfields> wumpus: the binary has nothing to do with it
 856 2014-04-10 07:31:23 <coryfields> you'd be arguing that they should write their own core
 857 2014-04-10 07:31:32 <gmaxwell> wumpus: OpenSSL's license:
 858 2014-04-10 07:31:32 <gmaxwell>  * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this
 859 2014-04-10 07:31:32 <gmaxwell>  *    software must display the following acknowledgment:
 860 2014-04-10 07:31:32 <gmaxwell>  *    "This product includes software developed by the OpenSSL Project
 861 2014-04-10 07:31:33 <gmaxwell>  *    for use in the OpenSSL Toolkit. (http://www.openssl.org/)"
 862 2014-04-10 07:31:55 <coryfields> gmaxwell: their license did wonders for them on the news this week :p
 863 2014-04-10 07:31:56 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: OpenSSL cannot legally be linked with GPL
 864 2014-04-10 07:31:59 <wumpus> huh? no I am not arguing that they should write their own core, just that there is nothing inherently in bitcoin that requires those libraries to be linked statically
 865 2014-04-10 07:32:06 <gmaxwell> This is incompatible with any copyleft free software license— except things that have exceptions, which I believe lgpl and libc++ do.
 866 2014-04-10 07:32:07 airbreather_1 has joined
 867 2014-04-10 07:32:42 <wumpus> we just do that for easy of distribution, but within a company you'd likely build your own version anyway, using dynamic libraries of the operating system
 868 2014-04-10 07:32:44 <endofcrypto> price comments?
 869 2014-04-10 07:32:56 <warren> kick
 870 2014-04-10 07:32:59 <Luke-Jr> /kickban endofcrypto off-topic and spam
 871 2014-04-10 07:33:05 <gmaxwell> It's minutia in any case. I wouldn't advise losing sleep over it, esp since we're now pretty close to elimiating the dependency at least in a daemon only build. :)
 872 2014-04-10 07:33:20 endofcrypto has joined
 873 2014-04-10 07:33:35 <Luke-Jr> actually, if we're including any GPL content, we need to distribute source for it too
 874 2014-04-10 07:33:37 <coryfields> gmaxwell: agreed
 875 2014-04-10 07:33:39 <Luke-Jr> even if it's unmodified..
 876 2014-04-10 07:33:42 <warren> so what did we actually decide to do here?
 877 2014-04-10 07:34:02 <warren> make available an optional deterministic debuginfo for download?
 878 2014-04-10 07:34:07 <coryfields> Luke-Jr: no we don't. that's fsf rumor #3 or so :)
 879 2014-04-10 07:34:13 hsmiths has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 880 2014-04-10 07:34:18 <Luke-Jr> coryfields: GPLv2 at least
 881 2014-04-10 07:34:24 Coincidental has joined
 882 2014-04-10 07:34:38 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: technically we only have to make it available if someone requests it.
 883 2014-04-10 07:34:41 <coryfields> Luke-Jr: nah, you just need to be able to point requests to the source.
 884 2014-04-10 07:34:46 <gmaxwell> We can also charge our costs of doing so. :)
 885 2014-04-10 07:34:50 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that option requires us to provide a written offer upfront
 886 2014-04-10 07:34:50 <gmaxwell> coryfields: that isn't true.
 887 2014-04-10 07:34:55 <coryfields> if that source is burdened by your request, you can handle it yourself and charge for it
 888 2014-04-10 07:34:57 <coryfields> what ^^ said
 889 2014-04-10 07:35:09 <wumpus> warren: if someone adds building the symbols to the gitian process, we can afterwards decide how to distrbute it
 890 2014-04-10 07:35:13 airbreather has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 891 2014-04-10 07:35:19 <wumpus> warren: if not, this discussion is moot
 892 2014-04-10 07:35:21 <endofcrypto> why was openssl included in the protocol?
 893 2014-04-10 07:35:21 jchp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 894 2014-04-10 07:35:25 <gmaxwell> seriously, you guys should stop debating licencing minutia in here.
 895 2014-04-10 07:35:35 <Luke-Jr> GPLv3 allows you to point at a 3rd party IFF that 3rd party used the source-offer option
 896 2014-04-10 07:35:37 <gmaxwell> endofcrypto: what protocol?
 897 2014-04-10 07:35:46 <endofcrypto> bitcoin core
 898 2014-04-10 07:35:53 <gmaxwell> endofcrypto: it's not a part of the bitcoin protocol.
 899 2014-04-10 07:35:56 <coryfields> i really wonder if i get dragged in to all of these discussions, or if i somehow cause them...
 900 2014-04-10 07:35:58 <wumpus> endofcrypto: #bitcoin please
 901 2014-04-10 07:36:28 <endofcrypto> gmaxwell: wasn't it in the "bitcoin core" the main implementation?
 902 2014-04-10 07:36:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: shoulda done the ban too :P
 903 2014-04-10 07:37:12 <gmaxwell> endofcrypto: you've been asked to move into #bitcoin
 904 2014-04-10 07:37:46 jchp has joined
 905 2014-04-10 07:37:51 OneMiner1 has joined
 906 2014-04-10 07:37:55 <warren> wumpus: we didn't agree to a plan?
 907 2014-04-10 07:38:02 <wumpus> warren: that's the plan
 908 2014-04-10 07:38:05 <coryfields> wumpus: anyway, let me know if i can help with symbol stuff. as for future releases, i'd like to work on a policy and try to stick to it. but not tonight :)
 909 2014-04-10 07:38:18 <hno> warren, thanks. That has a different blockchan and networkid, right?
 910 2014-04-10 07:38:42 <warren> hno: yes, different magic and some genesis params, same address version as testnet
 911 2014-04-10 07:38:57 <warren> hno: it lets you generate blocks whenever you want
 912 2014-04-10 07:39:40 <hno> do I understand it correctly that regtest mode is everything of bitcoin except there is no difficulty?
 913 2014-04-10 07:40:02 <wumpus> warren: but I'm ok with what you propose re: distributing debug symbols, as I've already said a few times
 914 2014-04-10 07:40:39 da2ce7 has joined
 915 2014-04-10 07:40:49 OneMiner has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 916 2014-04-10 07:40:51 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 917 2014-04-10 07:41:03 jcv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 918 2014-04-10 07:41:04 <warren> wumpus: ok
 919 2014-04-10 07:41:22 MistaG has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 920 2014-04-10 07:41:26 <hno> I guess the nonstandard check is also disabled like on testnet?
 921 2014-04-10 07:41:31 yubrew has joined
 922 2014-04-10 07:41:35 <warren> wumpus: I don't know if there's any debuginfo standard that is consistent across distros, if not then the alternate download is just an unstripped binary
 923 2014-04-10 07:41:46 hmmma has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 924 2014-04-10 07:42:21 W0rmDr1nk has joined
 925 2014-04-10 07:42:42 paveljanik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 926 2014-04-10 07:42:56 jcv has joined
 927 2014-04-10 07:43:37 <hno> Not entirely clear how to control the generated block contents in regtest mode. Do one need to use setgenerate, or can one submit blocks like usual?
 928 2014-04-10 07:44:07 <wumpus> warren: objcopy --only-keep-debug (raw dwarf) format is standard as it is what gdb gets
 929 2014-04-10 07:44:20 <warren> hno: each time you setgenerate it makes one block and stops
 930 2014-04-10 07:44:22 <wumpus> warren: sometimes it's gz-compressed, but that's it..
 931 2014-04-10 07:44:36 <wumpus> warren: there is really no variance in that
 932 2014-04-10 07:44:37 Namworld has quit ()
 933 2014-04-10 07:44:51 <warren> wumpus: do the distros install debuginfo in the same place for gdb to look for it?
 934 2014-04-10 07:44:51 Raziel has joined
 935 2014-04-10 07:44:55 <hno> warren, but how to control the included transactions?
 936 2014-04-10 07:45:08 <warren> hno: whatever is in the mempool at the time the block is created, like normal
 937 2014-04-10 07:45:19 <coryfields> warren: distro policy goes out the window as soon as we distribute our own binary
 938 2014-04-10 07:45:21 <wumpus> warren: I can't say -- I do know that those paths are configurable
 939 2014-04-10 07:45:25 <coryfields> warren: man objcopy
 940 2014-04-10 07:45:32 <wumpus> it's a simply a gdb configuration option
 941 2014-04-10 07:45:35 <coryfields> warren: those are the definitive answers
 942 2014-04-10 07:45:36 <warren> ok
 943 2014-04-10 07:45:42 <wumpus> messed around a lot with that for embedded debugging
 944 2014-04-10 07:45:52 <warren> you two have something in common
 945 2014-04-10 07:45:56 <hno> warren, the coinbase transaction is not in mempool.
 946 2014-04-10 07:46:02 <warren> oh
 947 2014-04-10 07:46:19 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 948 2014-04-10 07:46:40 eristisk has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 949 2014-04-10 07:46:44 <warren> hno: then you probably have to write a hacked up GBT miner, I think it will accept any difficulty
 950 2014-04-10 07:47:33 <coryfields> nnite
 951 2014-04-10 07:49:05 <wumpus> night coryfields
 952 2014-04-10 07:49:06 <endofcrypto> hi gmaxwell
 953 2014-04-10 07:51:22 cheetah2 has joined
 954 2014-04-10 07:51:35 <hno> warren, ok. I'll go and read some bitcoind code I think..
 955 2014-04-10 07:52:41 byron has joined
 956 2014-04-10 07:53:38 <gmaxwell> (PM context)
 957 2014-04-10 07:54:02 <warren> hno: actually, you best look at pool code that makes a custom coinbase tx
 958 2014-04-10 07:54:17 <warren> hno: p2pool or eloipool are the most common I think
 959 2014-04-10 07:55:24 <warren> Anyone have one of those useless 300MH ASICMiner USB sticks?  Hoping for a donation to put it into a data center on a permanent testnet node.  It will generate a block if no block happens for 20 minutes.
 960 2014-04-10 07:56:45 <vetch> warren: maybe BTC Guild has a few left over? they used to sell them.
 961 2014-04-10 07:57:19 anddam has joined
 962 2014-04-10 07:57:19 byron has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 963 2014-04-10 07:59:55 c_k has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 964 2014-04-10 08:00:16 HongFaeBu has joined
 965 2014-04-10 08:01:49 tarantillo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 966 2014-04-10 08:02:14 tarantillo_ has joined
 967 2014-04-10 08:02:29 c_k has joined
 968 2014-04-10 08:02:32 t7 has joined
 969 2014-04-10 08:05:51 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 970 2014-04-10 08:06:28 rmwb has quit ()
 971 2014-04-10 08:06:38 olalonde has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 972 2014-04-10 08:06:58 a5m0 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 973 2014-04-10 08:07:00 toffoo has quit ()
 974 2014-04-10 08:07:37 olalonde has joined
 975 2014-04-10 08:07:41 a5m0 has joined
 976 2014-04-10 08:09:35 beachandbytes has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 977 2014-04-10 08:10:39 Ademan has joined
 978 2014-04-10 08:12:56 Eagle[TM] has joined
 979 2014-04-10 08:14:01 tlrobinson has quit (Quit: tlrobinson)
 980 2014-04-10 08:14:52 16WAAB5ZW has joined
 981 2014-04-10 08:15:22 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 982 2014-04-10 08:15:28 ArthurNumba2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 983 2014-04-10 08:15:41 W0rmDr1nk has joined
 984 2014-04-10 08:18:08 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
 985 2014-04-10 08:18:47 Apexseals has quit ()
 986 2014-04-10 08:19:33 16WAAB5ZW has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 987 2014-04-10 08:20:05 nickler has joined
 988 2014-04-10 08:21:02 grandmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 989 2014-04-10 08:21:28 ido370 has joined
 990 2014-04-10 08:21:57 Jon_Vaage has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 991 2014-04-10 08:23:53 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 992 2014-04-10 08:24:02 johnsoft has joined
 993 2014-04-10 08:25:37 Chief_Panda has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 994 2014-04-10 08:27:07 fanquake has quit (Quit: fanquake)
 995 2014-04-10 08:28:41 cheetah2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 996 2014-04-10 08:29:34 mortale has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 997 2014-04-10 08:29:34 Lexa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 998 2014-04-10 08:30:11 k3t3r has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 28.0/20140314220517])
 999 2014-04-10 08:30:12 Lexa has joined
1000 2014-04-10 08:30:54 mortale has joined
1001 2014-04-10 08:32:55 adam3us has joined
1002 2014-04-10 08:35:43 yubrew has joined
1003 2014-04-10 08:36:42 <wumpus> testers needed that run Debian Stable, Ubuntu 10.04, or CentOS 6.5 for an alternative to static linking gitian releases: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4042
1004 2014-04-10 08:37:19 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1005 2014-04-10 08:37:48 <warren> wumpus: I'll post binaries to make it easier to test
1006 2014-04-10 08:37:55 topynate has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1007 2014-04-10 08:38:01 <wumpus> I did that myself already
1008 2014-04-10 08:38:11 <wumpus> see bottom post
1009 2014-04-10 08:38:14 <warren> ahhh thanks
1010 2014-04-10 08:39:11 <warren> wumpus: hmm, coryfields wanted more than just linking testing
1011 2014-04-10 08:39:18 <wumpus> (would be pretty pointless otherwise, 'can you help test on these old OSes, oh, you need to build first on a newer OS' 
1012 2014-04-10 08:39:31 <wumpus> warren: people can do whatever testing they want
1013 2014-04-10 08:39:38 <wumpus> step one is to test linking
1014 2014-04-10 08:39:47 <warren> yes, step one
1015 2014-04-10 08:39:49 <wumpus> if they want to test more that's great
1016 2014-04-10 08:40:00 <wumpus> ie, at least run the test_bitcoin and test_bitcoin-qt
1017 2014-04-10 08:40:02 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1018 2014-04-10 08:40:04 <warren> I'm testing 10.04, already tested those other OS's for linking
1019 2014-04-10 08:40:16 <wumpus> why didn't you tell me?
1020 2014-04-10 08:40:21 go1111111 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1021 2014-04-10 08:40:29 <warren> because the tests he wants is far more than linking
1022 2014-04-10 08:40:38 shadders has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1023 2014-04-10 08:40:43 tonokip has joined
1024 2014-04-10 08:40:53 <wumpus> still you could have told me that you already tested lining
1025 2014-04-10 08:41:06 <wumpus> so that I don't spend time typing a post for nothing
1026 2014-04-10 08:41:47 <warren> we wouldn't have posted that at all if we didn't test linking
1027 2014-04-10 08:41:54 <wumpus> ...
1028 2014-04-10 08:41:58 wallet42 has joined
1029 2014-04-10 08:42:03 <wumpus> ok, post removed, you can handle this if you want
1030 2014-04-10 08:42:11 <warren> well your build is helpful
1031 2014-04-10 08:42:41 wallet42 has quit (Client Quit)
1032 2014-04-10 08:42:45 <warren> wumpus: please repost, it's helpful to know how old of a distro it works
1033 2014-04-10 08:42:53 <warren> you also have binaries
1034 2014-04-10 08:43:14 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
1035 2014-04-10 08:43:30 da2ce7 has joined
1036 2014-04-10 08:43:38 Grouver has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1037 2014-04-10 08:43:42 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1038 2014-04-10 08:44:05 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1039 2014-04-10 08:44:23 Grouver has joined
1040 2014-04-10 08:47:37 W0rmDr1nk has joined
1041 2014-04-10 08:48:00 <anddam> do third-party wallet softwares listed at https://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet follow the dependency checking and code auditing discussed at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1naenR6N6fMWSpHM0f4jpQhYBEkCEQDbLBs8AXC19Y-o/edit?pli=1 ?
1042 2014-04-10 08:48:02 da2ce7 has quit (Client Quit)
1043 2014-04-10 08:48:22 <wumpus> ok, I'll repost the binaries
1044 2014-04-10 08:49:11 <wumpus> but please try to keep me informed of what work is happening, so that we don't do double work, we're with few people enough as we are
1045 2014-04-10 08:49:27 _yoy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1046 2014-04-10 08:49:32 <warren> wumpus: thanks, sorry about the confusion.
1047 2014-04-10 08:50:54 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Client Quit)
1048 2014-04-10 08:52:24 da2ce7 has joined
1049 2014-04-10 08:53:10 <gmaxwell> anddam: none of them are full node implementations, so they have lower consensus implications.
1050 2014-04-10 08:54:05 mortale has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1051 2014-04-10 08:55:09 debiantoruser has joined
1052 2014-04-10 08:55:17 mortale has joined
1053 2014-04-10 08:57:14 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1054 2014-04-10 08:58:27 johnsoft has joined
1055 2014-04-10 08:58:58 _yoy_ has joined
1056 2014-04-10 09:00:02 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1057 2014-04-10 09:00:06 <anddam> got a couple minutes?
1058 2014-04-10 09:00:09 <anddam> gmaxwell: ^^
1059 2014-04-10 09:00:16 Guyver2 has joined
1060 2014-04-10 09:01:08 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1061 2014-04-10 09:01:26 <hno> Hmm.. someone is mining a little too hard on testnet.
1062 2014-04-10 09:03:22 Lao_Ban_ has joined
1063 2014-04-10 09:04:30 dexX7 has joined
1064 2014-04-10 09:04:55 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1065 2014-04-10 09:05:12 <hno> How often do the testnet difficulty adjust?
1066 2014-04-10 09:06:29 <hno> every 2016 block as on main chain?
1067 2014-04-10 09:06:59 <kinlo> yes but it does readjust down to 1 after 30 min of no activity as an extra rule
1068 2014-04-10 09:07:09 <kinlo> besides that extra rule, everything is exactly the same
1069 2014-04-10 09:08:15 hearn has joined
1070 2014-04-10 09:08:15 nickler has quit (Quit: leaving)
1071 2014-04-10 09:08:24 paveljanik has joined
1072 2014-04-10 09:09:54 <vetch> kinlo: hno: after 20 minutes it adjusts to difficulty 1 but only for a single block.
1073 2014-04-10 09:12:10 <hno> So I need to wait 40 minuts for testnet to settle at a acceptable rate, or disconnect from the network. Someone generates 1 block/s now at diff 256.
1074 2014-04-10 09:12:39 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1075 2014-04-10 09:13:42 Neozonz has joined
1076 2014-04-10 09:15:42 byron_ has joined
1077 2014-04-10 09:15:46 Bohren has joined
1078 2014-04-10 09:15:51 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1079 2014-04-10 09:18:34 CodesInChaos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1080 2014-04-10 09:20:45 byron_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1081 2014-04-10 09:20:46 JackH has joined
1082 2014-04-10 09:20:51 abossard has joined
1083 2014-04-10 09:23:20 wallet42 has joined
1084 2014-04-10 09:23:23 <Luke-Jr> tcatm: you alive?
1085 2014-04-10 09:23:35 <kinlo> hno: if you need to perform tests, use testnet in a box
1086 2014-04-10 09:23:49 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: testnet-in-a-box is broken :<
1087 2014-04-10 09:23:57 <kinlo> instead of waiting for the public testnet to become "free"
1088 2014-04-10 09:24:27 <wumpus> even better to use regtest
1089 2014-04-10 09:24:38 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: depends on what you call testnet-in-a-box: the pre-made .tar.gz might be broken, but setting up a "testnet in a box" is just a matter of setting up 2 bitcoind's and setting the correct config file
1090 2014-04-10 09:24:40 <wumpus> it's like testnet in a box but you can request blocks at will, no need for mining or delays
1091 2014-04-10 09:24:50 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: except for the checkpoint lockin
1092 2014-04-10 09:24:54 <jouke> regtest ftw
1093 2014-04-10 09:25:07 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: there is no checkpoint lockin in testnet afaik?
1094 2014-04-10 09:25:10 <dexX7> what would be the way to go, if i wanted to get the position of a tx inside a block? i tried ReadBlockFromDisk + enumerate txs but it appears to be slow
1095 2014-04-10 09:25:18 <wumpus> kinlo: there is one checkpoint on testnet, but pretty early
1096 2014-04-10 09:25:23 <kinlo> ic
1097 2014-04-10 09:25:26 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: but totally breaks TNIAB
1098 2014-04-10 09:25:27 <warren> wumpus: regarding the proposed change to -regtest address versions, I'm hoping to talk to jgarzik before writing it.
1099 2014-04-10 09:25:39 <wumpus> kinlo: so you could start a testnet in a box after that, if you even wanted to
1100 2014-04-10 09:25:59 <Luke-Jr> hm, tcatm was here Apr 2nd at least
1101 2014-04-10 09:26:43 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: since you're the main project maintainer, I guess you can bypass tcatm.. ok to add warren too? (transifex)
1102 2014-04-10 09:27:12 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes, when you're changing the maintainers anyway, can you add me (laanwj) too ?
1103 2014-04-10 09:27:14 HongFaeBu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1104 2014-04-10 09:27:50 <warren> hno: FYI, I'm soon putting a permanent miner on testnet that adds one block if nobody else did so in the previous 20 minutes.  I need to acquire a tiny miner that can be reliably enabled/disabled by RPC.
1105 2014-04-10 09:27:54 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: but adding warren is fine, I already discussed with him
1106 2014-04-10 09:28:12 <Luke-Jr> done
1107 2014-04-10 09:28:23 <hno> kinlo, I also need distributed connectivity for these tests, and not in a mood to build a full bitcoin network right now. Quicker to just wait for diff to adjust.
1108 2014-04-10 09:28:28 <warren> hno: I'm also proposing that -regtest's address versions be changed to be unique.
1109 2014-04-10 09:29:02 <warren> hno: what is unsuitable about regtest for what you need to do?
1110 2014-04-10 09:29:14 Grouver has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1111 2014-04-10 09:29:16 <hno> warren, you can easily split any miner into a tiny portion mining on testnet.
1112 2014-04-10 09:29:36 abossard has quit (Quit: abossard)
1113 2014-04-10 09:29:51 yubrew has joined
1114 2014-04-10 09:30:01 <warren> I have zero mining hardware, and the goal isn't to constantly mine testnet, just to ensure there are at least 3 blocks per hour so people testing transactions don't get stuck.
1115 2014-04-10 09:31:09 alecalve has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1116 2014-04-10 09:31:10 <hno> warren, I already have a miner running 24/7 at about diff 0.2 rate.
1117 2014-04-10 09:31:21 <warren> oh, since when?
1118 2014-04-10 09:31:37 <warren> last week my friend tried to test stuff but got frustrated when there were no blocks
1119 2014-04-10 09:31:58 Grouver has joined
1120 2014-04-10 09:32:04 <warren> hno: anyway, what about regtest is unsuitable for your needs?
1121 2014-04-10 09:32:35 <hno> warren, only that I also need a bitcoin network and third parties participating..
1122 2014-04-10 09:32:37 <sipa> running at difficulty 0.2 will still mean only one block per 70 minutes, if difficulty is high
1123 2014-04-10 09:32:58 <warren> hno: third parties can join your own regtest network
1124 2014-04-10 09:33:17 abossard has joined
1125 2014-04-10 09:33:41 <warren> hno: no mining client knows about testnet's "drop difficulty to 1 if no blocks in 20 minutes" rule, unless you wrote it yourself
1126 2014-04-10 09:33:45 tlrobinson has joined
1127 2014-04-10 09:34:05 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1128 2014-04-10 09:34:48 <hno> warren, sure they can, but requires a bit more configuration of everyone involved.
1129 2014-04-10 09:35:03 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1130 2014-04-10 09:35:03 <warren> eh?  addnode=IP:PORT is the only config
1131 2014-04-10 09:35:24 <warren> hno: what purpose do you have for making orphan chains?
1132 2014-04-10 09:35:24 <hno> warren, how do you make that in android wallets etc?
1133 2014-04-10 09:35:39 <hno> warren, the orphans is only one of many tests.
1134 2014-04-10 09:36:17 <sipa> i wouldn't promote regtest as a public network
1135 2014-04-10 09:36:21 alecalve has joined
1136 2014-04-10 09:36:21 <warren> hno: android is hte harder part, you would need to edit the app and build it yourself, testnet android app is a separate build from mainnnet, and I don't think it knows about regtest at all
1137 2014-04-10 09:36:26 ikbenwouter has joined
1138 2014-04-10 09:36:38 <warren> the app does have an option to connect to a particular IP
1139 2014-04-10 09:36:48 <vetch> warren: cgminer picks up the difficulty drop
1140 2014-04-10 09:36:59 <vetch> warren: bfgminer does too with the right settings, according to luke
1141 2014-04-10 09:38:21 <warren> hno: even if you make your own testnet-in-a-box, that still requires an equally time consuming custom android app (hacked to not connect to the real testnet)
1142 2014-04-10 09:38:22 <warren> vetch: oh?  Luke-Jr ?
1143 2014-04-10 09:38:38 <vetch> warren: yes, I was talking about it with him earlier
1144 2014-04-10 09:38:39 <warren> vetch: only a few weeks ago Luke-Jr said it doesn't
1145 2014-04-10 09:38:42 <hno> warren, yes. And is why I don't and use testnet3 as is.
1146 2014-04-10 09:39:01 <warren> hard to control tests on testnet3
1147 2014-04-10 09:39:04 <warren> but ok
1148 2014-04-10 09:39:54 <hno> For our purposes it's just slightly annoying if someone just thrown a bit too much hash power at it like just now.
1149 2014-04-10 09:40:01 <vetch> warren: I mentioned that it didn't seem to and he corrected me that it did if you changed the scantime (?) setting
1150 2014-04-10 09:40:24 <warren> hno: yeah, I got my friend onto regtest because testnet3 was too unpredictable
1151 2014-04-10 09:40:43 <warren> vetch: oh, GBT with a very short scantime?
1152 2014-04-10 09:40:57 <vetch> hno: wow, whoever that is has started mining even faster. I was able to outrun them yesterday and fork their blocks out today. doesn't look like I could today.
1153 2014-04-10 09:41:01 <vetch> warren: yes
1154 2014-04-10 09:41:18 <hno> warren, Yes, we might eventually go there as well.
1155 2014-04-10 09:41:32 <warren> "I was able to outrun them yesterday and fork their blocks out today." <--- this is exactly why people can't use testnet to test things =)
1156 2014-04-10 09:42:10 <hno> warren, that's exaclty why one should...
1157 2014-04-10 09:42:18 <hno> you never know what happens :)
1158 2014-04-10 09:42:20 <vetch> warren: hey, they were already being abusive and mining a block few seconds. they only lost a few minutes work at most.
1159 2014-04-10 09:42:23 Lao_Ban_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1160 2014-04-10 09:42:39 <gmaxwell> warren: thats exactly why testnet is useful. because you actually do get some exceptional events.
1161 2014-04-10 09:42:41 <warren> hno: IMHO, tests need to be automated and predictable... sure additionally see how your software deals with 20k reorg
1162 2014-04-10 09:43:04 <hno> warren, depends on what is being tested.
1163 2014-04-10 09:43:11 <vetch> yeah, I failed my 4000 block reorg by killing my nodes chainstate (somehow) :(
1164 2014-04-10 09:43:21 <sipa> vetch: OOM?
1165 2014-04-10 09:43:26 <warren> In any case, I hope to get a few of the common tools and wallets with regtest support.
1166 2014-04-10 09:43:30 <gmaxwell> vetch: he used your blacklisting patch.
1167 2014-04-10 09:43:44 <vetch> sipa: yeah, using your blacklisting patch
1168 2014-04-10 09:44:29 <sipa> unless you rebased that, it's likely that a huge reorg will kill a node
1169 2014-04-10 09:44:34 <warren> I'm familiar with electrum, android wallet, bitcore and insight, so those will be able to talk regtest if I have time to do it.
1170 2014-04-10 09:44:38 <sipa> as it does the whole reorg in ram
1171 2014-04-10 09:45:04 <vetch> sipa: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=4rUJVePY
1172 2014-04-10 09:45:23 CodesInChaos has joined
1173 2014-04-10 09:45:28 <sipa> vetch: oooh that's interesting
1174 2014-04-10 09:45:54 abossard has quit (Quit: abossard)
1175 2014-04-10 09:46:49 <vetch> sipa: I don't think it was a memory issue, I was usually a ridiculously oversized VPS for the task
1176 2014-04-10 09:47:03 <sipa> vetch: nope, doesn't look like it
1177 2014-04-10 09:47:41 abossard has joined
1178 2014-04-10 09:48:17 paveljanik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1179 2014-04-10 09:48:56 <sipa> vetch: this may be serious
1180 2014-04-10 09:49:13 <sipa> i have no time to look into it now
1181 2014-04-10 09:49:32 jordandotdev has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
1182 2014-04-10 09:49:35 <vetch> sipa: this *wasn't* with a rebased patch
1183 2014-04-10 09:50:12 tlrobinson has quit (Quit: tlrobinson)
1184 2014-04-10 09:50:29 <sipa> yeah, some things changed in the mean time
1185 2014-04-10 09:50:45 <sipa> that may affect its behaviour in large reorgs
1186 2014-04-10 09:51:07 <sipa> i'll try to get blacklistblock rebased
1187 2014-04-10 09:51:18 <sipa> this weekend or so
1188 2014-04-10 09:54:47 <vetch> sipa: hopefully not serious and just an issue with the patch somehow
1189 2014-04-10 09:55:01 eristisk has joined
1190 2014-04-10 09:57:50 datagutt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1191 2014-04-10 10:01:40 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
1192 2014-04-10 10:03:29 eristisk has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1193 2014-04-10 10:10:15 [Author] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1194 2014-04-10 10:10:27 benrcole has joined
1195 2014-04-10 10:14:06 HongFaeBu has joined
1196 2014-04-10 10:14:57 [Author] has joined
1197 2014-04-10 10:15:06 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1198 2014-04-10 10:15:16 <hno> Looks like whoever it was just stopped mining. Maybe realized testnet coins are not worth their storage..
1199 2014-04-10 10:15:24 wallet42 has joined
1200 2014-04-10 10:15:31 wallet42 has quit (Changing host)
1201 2014-04-10 10:15:31 wallet42 has joined
1202 2014-04-10 10:16:26 byron has joined
1203 2014-04-10 10:17:08 <vetch> hno: they haven't stopped.
1204 2014-04-10 10:17:29 greenspa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1205 2014-04-10 10:17:44 <vetch> hno: I'm seeing height 219319
1206 2014-04-10 10:18:48 espringe has joined
1207 2014-04-10 10:19:05 <sipa> vetch: was this on a datadir that had been touched by newer code (0.9 in particular)?
1208 2014-04-10 10:19:35 <vetch> sipa: completely new sync from the network, had never been touched by anything other than your branch checked out from github.
1209 2014-04-10 10:19:56 <hno> vetch, hm.... 219287 here.
1210 2014-04-10 10:20:20 abossard has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1211 2014-04-10 10:20:22 <sipa> vetch: worries me :)
1212 2014-04-10 10:20:29 <vetch> hno: you've fallen behind, the network is at 219382
1213 2014-04-10 10:20:31 <warren> vetch: what branch is this?
1214 2014-04-10 10:20:43 abossard has joined
1215 2014-04-10 10:20:49 <sipa> blacklistblock
1216 2014-04-10 10:20:53 byron has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1217 2014-04-10 10:21:06 <vetch> warren: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/tree/blacklist
1218 2014-04-10 10:21:08 <hno> vetch, I hear you, but why....
1219 2014-04-10 10:21:41 <warren> hmm, that code is pretty close to 0.8
1220 2014-04-10 10:21:44 <vetch> hno: checked out your log?
1221 2014-04-10 10:22:25 greenspa has joined
1222 2014-04-10 10:23:13 <hno> vetch, Not yet.
1223 2014-04-10 10:23:28 <vetch> sipa: warren: hold on, I'll see if I have a snapshot of the virtual machine in that state.
1224 2014-04-10 10:23:59 yubrew has joined
1225 2014-04-10 10:25:08 eristisk has joined
1226 2014-04-10 10:27:18 fanquake has joined
1227 2014-04-10 10:28:36 hearn has quit (Quit: hearn)
1228 2014-04-10 10:28:40 non2 has joined
1229 2014-04-10 10:28:56 <vetch> sipa: warren: doesn't look like it, I was running with -printtoconsole so none of the logs got written to disk.
1230 2014-04-10 10:29:00 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1231 2014-04-10 10:30:19 <hno> vetch, nothing in logs, and plenty of network connections.
1232 2014-04-10 10:30:31 Grouver has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1233 2014-04-10 10:30:57 <hno> confusing.
1234 2014-04-10 10:31:28 fanquake_ has joined
1235 2014-04-10 10:31:36 fanquake_ has quit (Client Quit)
1236 2014-04-10 10:31:51 eristisk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1237 2014-04-10 10:32:32 <vetch> hno: I'm doing a sync from testnet3 in a fresh instance now, lets see if I can catch up.
1238 2014-04-10 10:32:36 Grouver has joined
1239 2014-04-10 10:32:38 fanquake has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1240 2014-04-10 10:33:42 olalonde has joined
1241 2014-04-10 10:34:50 adam3us has joined
1242 2014-04-10 10:34:58 <hno> vetch, restarted bitcoind one of the bitcoin testnet nodes and it catched up again.
1243 2014-04-10 10:35:16 <vetch> hno: weird.
1244 2014-04-10 10:35:37 BGL has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1245 2014-04-10 10:36:11 <hno> vetch, very much.
1246 2014-04-10 10:36:41 w1zman has joined
1247 2014-04-10 10:36:56 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1248 2014-04-10 10:37:00 shadders has joined
1249 2014-04-10 10:37:19 airbreather_1 is now known as airbreather
1250 2014-04-10 10:37:24 benrcole has joined
1251 2014-04-10 10:38:07 <hno> Hmm... the blocks did not propagate to the other nodes however.
1252 2014-04-10 10:38:51 hearn has joined
1253 2014-04-10 10:39:04 <hno> all running 0.9.0
1254 2014-04-10 10:39:34 agath_pd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1255 2014-04-10 10:39:39 <hno> with connect= to the node I restarted.
1256 2014-04-10 10:39:41 agath has joined
1257 2014-04-10 10:42:48 davout has joined
1258 2014-04-10 10:45:47 espringe has quit (Quit: espringe)
1259 2014-04-10 10:46:33 hearn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1260 2014-04-10 10:49:09 mE\Ta has joined
1261 2014-04-10 10:50:41 llllllllll has joined
1262 2014-04-10 10:54:30 eristisk has joined
1263 2014-04-10 10:57:36 hsmiths has joined
1264 2014-04-10 11:01:01 mortale has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1265 2014-04-10 11:01:15 airbreather has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1266 2014-04-10 11:02:00 <warren> wumpus: btw, does bitcoin-qt work in wine?  it broke sometime before 0.9 right?
1267 2014-04-10 11:02:14 mortale has joined
1268 2014-04-10 11:02:24 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1269 2014-04-10 11:03:13 airbreather has joined
1270 2014-04-10 11:03:40 one_zero has quit ()
1271 2014-04-10 11:04:10 <wumpus> warren: it works great in wine
1272 2014-04-10 11:04:24 grandmaster has joined
1273 2014-04-10 11:05:49 hearn has joined
1274 2014-04-10 11:07:27 benrcole has joined
1275 2014-04-10 11:07:30 espringe has joined
1276 2014-04-10 11:07:35 <warren> ok thanks
1277 2014-04-10 11:08:16 benrcole has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1278 2014-04-10 11:09:27 HongFaeBu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1279 2014-04-10 11:10:05 pecket has joined
1280 2014-04-10 11:12:35 peck has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1281 2014-04-10 11:12:59 <hno> This is worrying. All my testnet nodes need restart to catch up, else they are stuck on 219287.
1282 2014-04-10 11:13:40 * warren looks at his nodes
1283 2014-04-10 11:14:39 <warren> [btc@lego ~]$ bitcoind -testnet getinfo |grep blocks
1284 2014-04-10 11:14:39 <warren>     "blocks" : 219393,
1285 2014-04-10 11:14:45 espringe has quit (Quit: espringe)
1286 2014-04-10 11:15:39 rodarmor has joined
1287 2014-04-10 11:17:11 16WAAB9LD has joined
1288 2014-04-10 11:18:05 yubrew has joined
1289 2014-04-10 11:18:26 neotap has joined
1290 2014-04-10 11:18:40 neotap has left ("Leaving")
1291 2014-04-10 11:19:23 <hno> No, not all. But many, and one was stuck on 205487.
1292 2014-04-10 11:19:31 <hno> Aha.
1293 2014-04-10 11:19:52 <hno> error: {"code":-2,"message":"Safe mode: Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade."}
1294 2014-04-10 11:20:45 <vetch> mm, my local testnet3 node is still trying to reorganise and catch up. sitting around 214952
1295 2014-04-10 11:21:59 16WAAB9LD has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1296 2014-04-10 11:22:15 non2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1297 2014-04-10 11:22:26 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1298 2014-04-10 11:24:13 <hno> Question: Is that "safe mode" error an effect of the node being stuck on a past block, or the cause to it being stuck?
1299 2014-04-10 11:24:41 <vetch> I think "safe mode" is triggered when you can see that there's other chains significantly higher than yours
1300 2014-04-10 11:25:30 <hno> It refuses to respond to getblockhash rpc calls, so not sure how to understand what state it is in.
1301 2014-04-10 11:25:48 <vetch> it's meant to be so you can use -alertnotify to kill whatever service you are running. say you were an exchange, that would be significant cause for you to freeze all transactions until you can work what's going on.
1302 2014-04-10 11:27:08 <hno> hmm... it still responds to getblocktemplate.
1303 2014-04-10 11:28:48 <vetch> hno: tail -f ~/.bitcoin/testnet3/debug.log
1304 2014-04-10 11:32:30 <hno> vetch, I am. But nothing of value logged.
1305 2014-04-10 11:32:59 airbreather has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1306 2014-04-10 11:33:16 airbreather has joined
1307 2014-04-10 11:33:27 neotap has joined
1308 2014-04-10 11:33:40 <hno> and a restart of that bitcoind did not help either.
1309 2014-04-10 11:33:41 jtcwang has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1310 2014-04-10 11:34:20 pierreat1ork has joined
1311 2014-04-10 11:34:20 pierreatwork has joined
1312 2014-04-10 11:34:27 davispuh has joined
1313 2014-04-10 11:35:13 non2 has joined
1314 2014-04-10 11:35:20 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1315 2014-04-10 11:35:44 SwampTony has joined
1316 2014-04-10 11:35:56 lolstate has joined
1317 2014-04-10 11:36:47 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1318 2014-04-10 11:39:12 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1319 2014-04-10 11:39:49 <warren> hno: can you make a backup of that datadir?
1320 2014-04-10 11:40:19 SwampTony has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1321 2014-04-10 11:40:21 <vetch> hno: looks like our high powered miner has finally given up though, #219395 seems to be the current best chain.
1322 2014-04-10 11:40:45 <hno> warren, yes.
1323 2014-04-10 11:40:52 SwampTony has joined
1324 2014-04-10 11:42:06 SwampTony has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1325 2014-04-10 11:42:30 SwampTony has joined
1326 2014-04-10 11:44:06 <hno> Hmm.. maybe didn't catch it in time. It now said
1327 2014-04-10 11:44:08 <hno> 2014-04-10 11:41:21 CheckForkWarningConditions: Warning: Large valid fork found
1328 2014-04-10 11:44:08 <hno>   forking the chain at height 205487 (00000000f52a446a4166f9dff3f7a14d3d341f84a586332056d24a827bf7a11c)
1329 2014-04-10 11:44:08 <hno>   lasting to height 219396 (00000000c2ed1c8d70291765d7762bc6520df619cc15d9150063534848146552).
1330 2014-04-10 11:44:08 <hno> Chain state database corruption likely.
1331 2014-04-10 11:44:10 <hno> 2014-04-10 11:41:21 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
1332 2014-04-10 11:44:39 dims has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1333 2014-04-10 11:45:00 BGL has joined
1334 2014-04-10 11:45:52 lolstate has quit (Quit: lolstate)
1335 2014-04-10 11:47:00 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1336 2014-04-10 11:47:04 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1337 2014-04-10 11:47:04 Belxjander has joined
1338 2014-04-10 11:47:33 Bohren has joined
1339 2014-04-10 11:48:06 bkbk has joined
1340 2014-04-10 11:48:12 johnsoft has joined
1341 2014-04-10 11:48:28 adam3us has joined
1342 2014-04-10 11:48:55 grandmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1343 2014-04-10 11:50:15 damethos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1344 2014-04-10 11:52:19 <vetch> hno: something isn't right there, you really should be able to recover from almost anything like that
1345 2014-04-10 11:52:35 SwampTony has joined
1346 2014-04-10 11:53:15 zacm_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1347 2014-04-10 11:53:59 zacm has joined
1348 2014-04-10 11:54:00 <vetch> hno: what'd your current best block hash?
1349 2014-04-10 11:54:44 v4mp has joined
1350 2014-04-10 11:55:15 saulimus has joined
1351 2014-04-10 11:55:50 hearn has quit (Quit: hearn)
1352 2014-04-10 11:56:54 zacm has quit (Excess Flood)
1353 2014-04-10 11:57:03 zacm has joined
1354 2014-04-10 11:58:08 <gmaxwell> petertodd: trustfree was less important when you were sitting across from the person and had red hot tongs in your hands.
1355 2014-04-10 11:58:43 zacm has quit (Excess Flood)
1356 2014-04-10 11:58:52 zacm has joined
1357 2014-04-10 11:59:45 Bohren has quit ()
1358 2014-04-10 12:00:15 bkbk has quit ()
1359 2014-04-10 12:00:20 debiantoruser has joined
1360 2014-04-10 12:00:26 SwampTony has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1361 2014-04-10 12:00:48 hearn has joined
1362 2014-04-10 12:01:15 <vetch> gmaxwell: you know when I said my node was "crawling" trying to catch up on testnet (unrelated to other issues), I found out why. there's a section of huge blocks in a long run around 208200 that were created last month. that's one mystery solved.
1363 2014-04-10 12:01:18 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1364 2014-04-10 12:01:40 johnsoft has joined
1365 2014-04-10 12:02:28 <vetch> gmaxwell: each is just someone spending 0.00001BTC to themselves over and over again for 800kb, but that's the reason.
1366 2014-04-10 12:07:33 lolstate has joined
1367 2014-04-10 12:10:09 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1368 2014-04-10 12:10:25 bkbk has joined
1369 2014-04-10 12:12:15 yubrew has joined
1370 2014-04-10 12:15:14 pierreat1ork has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1371 2014-04-10 12:15:14 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1372 2014-04-10 12:16:39 wateratosthenes has joined
1373 2014-04-10 12:16:54 wateratosthenes has quit (Client Quit)
1374 2014-04-10 12:16:56 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1375 2014-04-10 12:17:42 SwampTony has joined
1376 2014-04-10 12:18:00 byron_ has joined
1377 2014-04-10 12:20:13 <hno> vetch, I have reset that node now. It's currently downloading the blockchain again from one of my other nodes.
1378 2014-04-10 12:20:36 <hno> but I have the testnet3 data directory saved for further analysis.
1379 2014-04-10 12:20:48 Eagle[TM] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1380 2014-04-10 12:22:14 <hno> vetch, but the block number reported by getblockcount did not change when the above message was logged. Still reported 205487
1381 2014-04-10 12:22:36 <hno> and was still in error condition.
1382 2014-04-10 12:22:38 eristisk has quit (Quit: killall -9 irc)
1383 2014-04-10 12:22:48 copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1384 2014-04-10 12:22:51 papa2 has joined
1385 2014-04-10 12:23:24 byron_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1386 2014-04-10 12:23:49 <hno> unfortunatel no time to look at it today, Need to run to celebrate 2 year birthday of one of the kids.
1387 2014-04-10 12:24:16 Eagle[TM] has joined
1388 2014-04-10 12:25:59 papa3 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1389 2014-04-10 12:26:23 eristisk has joined
1390 2014-04-10 12:26:31 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1391 2014-04-10 12:27:06 papa3 has joined
1392 2014-04-10 12:27:18 pierreatwork has joined
1393 2014-04-10 12:27:19 pierreat1ork has joined
1394 2014-04-10 12:27:43 Plinker_ has joined
1395 2014-04-10 12:28:13 bkbk has quit ()
1396 2014-04-10 12:28:31 papa2 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1397 2014-04-10 12:28:34 ThomasV has joined
1398 2014-04-10 12:29:24 astrolabe has joined
1399 2014-04-10 12:30:44 rdymac has joined
1400 2014-04-10 12:30:53 maraoz has joined
1401 2014-04-10 12:33:09 SwampTony has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1402 2014-04-10 12:35:44 rdbell has joined
1403 2014-04-10 12:36:07 W0rmDr1nk has joined
1404 2014-04-10 12:37:26 dims has joined
1405 2014-04-10 12:39:16 lclc has joined
1406 2014-04-10 12:40:18 Grouver has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1407 2014-04-10 12:40:48 lclc has quit (Client Quit)
1408 2014-04-10 12:41:11 lclc has joined
1409 2014-04-10 12:42:14 Cray-on- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1410 2014-04-10 12:47:31 phungus_ is now known as phungus
1411 2014-04-10 12:48:00 Cray-on- has joined
1412 2014-04-10 12:53:56 mr_burde_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1413 2014-04-10 12:56:47 ryanxcharles has joined
1414 2014-04-10 12:57:31 agricocb has joined
1415 2014-04-10 12:57:52 agricocb has quit (Client Quit)
1416 2014-04-10 12:59:18 f0xhound has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1417 2014-04-10 12:59:28 agricocb has joined
1418 2014-04-10 13:00:52 rdbell has quit (Quit: rdbell)
1419 2014-04-10 13:01:02 <Luke-Jr> shadders: btw, you're aware PSJ no longer works, right?
1420 2014-04-10 13:02:29 <lclc> sipa:  does your secp256k1 library also work on ARM?
1421 2014-04-10 13:03:03 <sipa> lclc: i believe coryfields has tested it on ARM, and the unit tests passed
1422 2014-04-10 13:03:27 * Luke-Jr forgets the secp256k1 status on x32
1423 2014-04-10 13:03:40 <gmaxwell> it works on arm
1424 2014-04-10 13:03:45 <lclc> ok thanks!
1425 2014-04-10 13:03:47 <gmaxwell> it's quite slow, but openssl is slower.
1426 2014-04-10 13:04:18 SwampTony has joined
1427 2014-04-10 13:04:25 <gmaxwell> like 400 verifies per second on a 1ghz core, ... which horrified me, but openssl was half that.
1428 2014-04-10 13:04:51 <gmaxwell> maybe it's better on A15 everything I have running here is A9.
1429 2014-04-10 13:05:30 MoALTz has joined
1430 2014-04-10 13:05:52 <lclc> we'll run it on a Raspberry, so I expect everything to be slow
1431 2014-04-10 13:06:17 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1432 2014-04-10 13:06:20 <vetch> I doubt you can even get a node to sync on that.
1433 2014-04-10 13:06:21 yubrew has joined
1434 2014-04-10 13:06:25 <vetch> not enough memory for starters.
1435 2014-04-10 13:06:41 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1436 2014-04-10 13:06:50 <vetch> you'd just thrash the SD card with swap until it burns though
1437 2014-04-10 13:07:02 Luke-Jr has joined
1438 2014-04-10 13:07:14 rdymac has joined
1439 2014-04-10 13:07:30 mkarrer has quit ()
1440 2014-04-10 13:08:50 mkarrer has joined
1441 2014-04-10 13:08:54 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1442 2014-04-10 13:09:35 mkarrer has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1443 2014-04-10 13:10:09 <Luke-Jr> sipa: how do you autogen.sh secp256k1?
1444 2014-04-10 13:10:24 MoALTz_ has joined
1445 2014-04-10 13:10:35 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1446 2014-04-10 13:10:57 <gmaxwell> I run autoreconf --omgrandomcrapIhavetofigureouteachtime
1447 2014-04-10 13:12:00 <Luke-Jr> >_<
1448 2014-04-10 13:12:12 impulse has quit (Quit: leaving)
1449 2014-04-10 13:12:26 <sipa> -vif
1450 2014-04-10 13:12:26 <sipa> no?
1451 2014-04-10 13:12:34 <Luke-Jr> thanks
1452 2014-04-10 13:13:02 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1453 2014-04-10 13:13:11 <Luke-Jr> boo, build fails
1454 2014-04-10 13:13:13 <Luke-Jr> http://bpaste.net/show/200271/
1455 2014-04-10 13:13:29 qwebirc53397 has joined
1456 2014-04-10 13:14:06 <sipa> aha, it detects you're on a compatible architecture, so it builds the asm version
1457 2014-04-10 13:14:12 <sipa> but the asm code is x86_64
1458 2014-04-10 13:14:14 datagutt has joined
1459 2014-04-10 13:14:15 <sipa> patches welcome :p
1460 2014-04-10 13:15:35 <Luke-Jr> x86_64 asm code is fine for x32 :p
1461 2014-04-10 13:16:46 <sipa> you'll probably need some yasm flag to make it mark the object file as x32
1462 2014-04-10 13:16:59 lolstate has quit (Quit: lolstate)
1463 2014-04-10 13:18:04 <Luke-Jr> yes
1464 2014-04-10 13:18:07 <Luke-Jr> -f elfx32
1465 2014-04-10 13:18:12 rodarmor has quit (Quit: rodarmor)
1466 2014-04-10 13:19:18 <sipa> make it so
1467 2014-04-10 13:21:23 roconnor has joined
1468 2014-04-10 13:23:39 gorran has joined
1469 2014-04-10 13:30:39 pierreat1ork has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1470 2014-04-10 13:30:39 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1471 2014-04-10 13:32:39 <shadders> Luke-Jr: WTF?  where did that come from?
1472 2014-04-10 13:32:53 pierreat1ork has joined
1473 2014-04-10 13:32:54 pierreatwork has joined
1474 2014-04-10 13:35:09 bkbk has joined
1475 2014-04-10 13:36:22 ryanxcharles has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1476 2014-04-10 13:36:41 Plinker_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1477 2014-04-10 13:37:18 <Luke-Jr> sipa: https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1/pull/1
1478 2014-04-10 13:37:21 <Luke-Jr> shadders: just wondering
1479 2014-04-10 13:37:34 <gmaxwell> wrong repo.
1480 2014-04-10 13:37:44 <sipa> Luke-Jr: yeah, send to bitcoin/secp256k1
1481 2014-04-10 13:37:57 <sipa> i moved the "master"
1482 2014-04-10 13:37:58 <Luke-Jr> …
1483 2014-04-10 13:38:08 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr:  #x86_64 only  <  not anymore?
1484 2014-04-10 13:38:13 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: whats it benchmark like for you?
1485 2014-04-10 13:38:50 <sipa> i expect x86_64 and x32 to be very similar, as it's almost entirely in registers, and little pointer arithmetic
1486 2014-04-10 13:39:12 <shadders> Luke-Jr: Thank for the hurr update... now I can stop durring :p
1487 2014-04-10 13:39:30 <Luke-Jr> shadders: ?
1488 2014-04-10 13:40:05 <shadders> Obviously it doesn't do stratum...  I wasn't here during that change... For all I know it would still work for getwork but it's hardly relevant since it's obsolete
1489 2014-04-10 13:40:06 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: dunno, does bench ever stop on its own? O.o
1490 2014-04-10 13:40:22 <Luke-Jr> shadders: forgot that change XD    it also missed block v2
1491 2014-04-10 13:40:34 <sipa> Luke-Jr: yes, after a few minutes
1492 2014-04-10 13:40:50 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, it runs 100k validations IIRC.
1493 2014-04-10 13:41:29 <shadders> Luke-Jr: I just find it an odd (if not blatantly obvious) statement to make completely out of the blue when I'm not even talking on IRC
1494 2014-04-10 13:41:58 <shadders> Would be curious to know what motivated you to enlighten me at this exact moment?
1495 2014-04-10 13:42:15 <Luke-Jr> shadders: a few hours ago, warren named the only 2 poolservers I'm aware of being public and working. made me wonder if you had brought PSJ up to date since you've been around more recently
1496 2014-04-10 13:42:16 OneMiner1 is now known as OneMiner
1497 2014-04-10 13:42:30 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: bench printed 0/1000000
1498 2014-04-10 13:42:40 <Luke-Jr> was I supposed to time it? :x
1499 2014-04-10 13:42:45 <sipa> eh, yes :p
1500 2014-04-10 13:42:47 <Luke-Jr> <.<
1501 2014-04-10 13:42:54 <Luke-Jr> I suppose without a CPU miner running too? :D
1502 2014-04-10 13:43:03 <shadders> No if I bring back PSJ I would rebuild it from scratch
1503 2014-04-10 13:43:35 <Luke-Jr> shadders: makes sense. still a Java fan? :P
1504 2014-04-10 13:43:58 <shadders> I was on the verge of doing that when I vanished... It had far too much code in it that was devoted to working around bitcoid limitations that had been resolved and had become a monster
1505 2014-04-10 13:45:02 <Luke-Jr> sipa: gmaxwell: real    2m16.644s
1506 2014-04-10 13:45:36 <shadders> Luke-Jr: fan?  No I don't fandom... Though I would note for the record that when pools had a performance bottleneck PSJ managed to outperform the C++ implementation by a factor of 4 in it's 1st version and 25 in it's last
1507 2014-04-10 13:45:41 <Luke-Jr> sipa: gmaxwell: Haswell 3.9 GHz
1508 2014-04-10 13:46:00 <Luke-Jr> shadders: well, the C++ implementation sucks ;p
1509 2014-04-10 13:46:13 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1510 2014-04-10 13:46:18 <shadders> Yes it did... but no one made one that didn't...
1511 2014-04-10 13:46:31 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: really? thats kinda slow in fact.
1512 2014-04-10 13:46:35 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: :<
1513 2014-04-10 13:46:54 <shadders> and here you are running a pool using an interpreter :p
1514 2014-04-10 13:47:21 <Luke-Jr> shadders: still performs well over 25x better than the C++ :P
1515 2014-04-10 13:47:45 W0rmDr1nk has joined
1516 2014-04-10 13:47:47 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: hrm, rebuilt and real    0m7.920s
1517 2014-04-10 13:47:52 <Luke-Jr> wait no
1518 2014-04-10 13:47:57 <Luke-Jr> that's when I ctrl-C'd it
1519 2014-04-10 13:47:58 <Luke-Jr> <.<
1520 2014-04-10 13:48:21 <shadders> Bollocks... it performs better by doing less work due to radically different design.. don't be obsequious....
1521 2014-04-10 13:48:57 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1522 2014-04-10 13:49:09 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: 1m26.285s and this is on a E31230 @ 3.20GHz
1523 2014-04-10 13:49:30 the_2nd has joined
1524 2014-04-10 13:49:31 <gmaxwell> I bet your gmp is losing asm or something on x32.
1525 2014-04-10 13:49:34 <Luke-Jr> shadders: huh? it gets the same job done
1526 2014-04-10 13:49:51 <Luke-Jr> hrm
1527 2014-04-10 13:50:51 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: so 1.5x faster with a 20% slower clock
1528 2014-04-10 13:51:01 ryanxcharles has joined
1529 2014-04-10 13:51:10 <Luke-Jr> how about openssl bignum?
1530 2014-04-10 13:51:13 <gmaxwell> (that cpu does 46357 verifies per second in total, wooho)
1531 2014-04-10 13:51:39 <shadders> Don't be obtuse luke.. you know exactly what I mean.
1532 2014-04-10 13:51:54 <Luke-Jr> shadders: nope. I'm talking about the getwork work generation btw.
1533 2014-04-10 13:52:35 <shadders> which is very different to acting as a proxy for bitcoind getwork... as you well know...
1534 2014-04-10 13:52:36 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1535 2014-04-10 13:53:00 <Luke-Jr> shadders: eh, what are you comparing 25x performance with, if not the work generation? O.o
1536 2014-04-10 13:53:03 <shadders> Can't really be bothered arguing about this... it's ancient history
1537 2014-04-10 13:53:19 <gmaxwell> shadders: should be nicer to the guy who's poolserver code is probably running a 1/3rd of the network hashrate these days. :P
1538 2014-04-10 13:53:20 * Luke-Jr shrugs
1539 2014-04-10 13:54:01 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: not seeing any better performance with openssl bignum :/
1540 2014-04-10 13:54:03 <shadders> gmaxwell: so was mine once upon a time... didn't make Luke-Jr my personal fanboi
1541 2014-04-10 13:54:30 * Luke-Jr tries GMP 6
1542 2014-04-10 13:54:58 <Luke-Jr> shadders: btw, my goal is NOT to argue with you :p  but at this point I am left totally confused as to what you were talking about >_<
1543 2014-04-10 13:55:36 <shadders> Luke-Jr: as am I...
1544 2014-04-10 13:55:50 <Luke-Jr> oh well, like you said.. doesn't matter
1545 2014-04-10 13:56:01 <shadders> exactly
1546 2014-04-10 13:57:44 <shadders> gmaxwell: luke is basically a master-baiter and he got the better of me tonight...
1547 2014-04-10 13:57:54 CheckDavid has joined
1548 2014-04-10 13:58:07 <Luke-Jr> shadders: except I'm not.. :/
1549 2014-04-10 13:58:22 <gmaxwell> I think you both managed to talk past each other, communication is hard— doubly so on IRC.
1550 2014-04-10 13:58:32 bkbk has quit ()
1551 2014-04-10 13:58:37 <gmaxwell> y'all shouldn't worry about it. I'm confident neither of you was trying to trouble the other.
1552 2014-04-10 13:58:54 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: real    1m45.327s
1553 2014-04-10 13:58:55 <shadders> You're a catholic... you could never admit to being a mster of baiting :p
1554 2014-04-10 13:59:37 <Luke-Jr> nor could I ever lie ;)
1555 2014-04-10 13:59:43 <gmaxwell> shadders: dude, you're bringing up the guy's religion? Thats uncool.
1556 2014-04-10 14:00:27 yubrew has joined
1557 2014-04-10 14:00:28 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: still slower than here but thats a lot better. What fixed it?
1558 2014-04-10 14:00:35 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: GMP 6.0
1559 2014-04-10 14:00:45 <Luke-Jr> was 5.1.2 the first time
1560 2014-04-10 14:00:49 eristisk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1561 2014-04-10 14:00:55 <gmaxwell> I wonder what mine would do with gmp 6. :P
1562 2014-04-10 14:01:20 <Luke-Jr> well, I'm assuming 6.0 just enables asm on x32
1563 2014-04-10 14:01:24 <sipa> 105.327us per validation? sounds good
1564 2014-04-10 14:01:39 <sipa> unless you have a 30GHz processor
1565 2014-04-10 14:02:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: mine is 06:47 <@gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: 1m26.285s and this is on a E31230 @ 3.20GHz
1566 2014-04-10 14:02:19 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1567 2014-04-10 14:03:05 <shadders> on a more interesting note... has anyone been keeping an archive of transactions that failed to make it into the blockchain?
1568 2014-04-10 14:03:09 eristisk has joined
1569 2014-04-10 14:03:32 <shadders> non-standard probably easier to capture than non-compliant... though the latter would be the more interesting
1570 2014-04-10 14:03:56 <Luke-Jr> non-compliant wouldn't even get relayed by anyone..
1571 2014-04-10 14:04:49 <shadders> yes... which is probably why folks like you are in a good position to log them...
1572 2014-04-10 14:04:51 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1573 2014-04-10 14:05:01 <sipa> gmaxwell: yeah so 86us for you
1574 2014-04-10 14:05:18 <sipa> gmaxwell: i think 86 is the lowest number i've ever seen
1575 2014-04-10 14:05:18 <Luke-Jr> shadders: I don't see why anyone would even create them O.o
1576 2014-04-10 14:05:23 paveljanik has joined
1577 2014-04-10 14:05:50 <shadders> for testing purposes I wonder if it would be worth setting up a secondary relay network that major nodes could participate in.
1578 2014-04-10 14:05:52 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
1579 2014-04-10 14:06:02 <sipa> shadders: testnet?
1580 2014-04-10 14:06:13 VossArtesian has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1581 2014-04-10 14:06:30 SwampTony has joined
1582 2014-04-10 14:06:51 VossArtesian has joined
1583 2014-04-10 14:06:53 espringe has joined
1584 2014-04-10 14:07:11 <shadders> Luke-Jr: I would imagine mostly they'd get created by accident... my reasoning is to collect them as fodder for a test suite for alt full-node implementations
1585 2014-04-10 14:07:40 <Luke-Jr> ah
1586 2014-04-10 14:07:45 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt has one of those
1587 2014-04-10 14:08:40 <shadders> I've seen his work... it's good stuff but it doesn't give full coverage... neither would my own idea but it would increase coverage...
1588 2014-04-10 14:09:12 <gmaxwell> I'd take a sizeable bet that collecting data off the network wouldn't increase converage (except for it being easy to cheat) :)
1589 2014-04-10 14:09:37 <shadders> gmaxwell: It will never cover exploits
1590 2014-04-10 14:09:44 <gmaxwell> thats not even my point.
1591 2014-04-10 14:09:54 Subo1977 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1592 2014-04-10 14:10:18 Subo1977 has joined
1593 2014-04-10 14:11:00 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1594 2014-04-10 14:11:09 <sipa> if you take things from the network, you only get valid sets, and mostly only standard ones
1595 2014-04-10 14:11:10 VossArtesian has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1596 2014-04-10 14:11:11 Eiii has joined
1597 2014-04-10 14:11:19 <sipa> the non-standard and non-valid ones are much more interesting
1598 2014-04-10 14:11:29 <Luke-Jr> that's why he was asking for those :p
1599 2014-04-10 14:11:40 * sipa will read before commenting
1600 2014-04-10 14:11:41 <gmaxwell> shadders: there is pratically no interesting transactions circulating on the network, and that which is .. is a subset of the existing unit tests. It's unlikely to turn up anything interesting, might be a fun excercise in general but not as a coverage thing.
1601 2014-04-10 14:13:32 <shadders> hmmm... So I'm thinking in terms of how to make new clients prove they are safe (as possible)... I saw an interesting suggestion on the bitcoinj list of running multiple implementations which gave me the idea of only accepting txs that all clients accept... lowest common denominator...
1602 2014-04-10 14:14:06 <shadders> or a majority of implementations...
1603 2014-04-10 14:14:44 <sipa> you can't prove that two implementations are equivalent (and i would be quite surprised if any two actually are)
1604 2014-04-10 14:14:44 <shadders> Looking to define the protocol in a somewhat more consensus oriented way than 'whatever the satoshi client does'
1605 2014-04-10 14:14:54 <shadders> sipa: agreed
1606 2014-04-10 14:15:08 ryanxcharles has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1607 2014-04-10 14:15:21 <gmaxwell> shadders: forcing people to run N * a full node to operate safely in not a really sane thing to do however.
1608 2014-04-10 14:15:28 <shadders> but unless we accept that one implementation IS the protocol forever and ever amen, we need to define the protocol
1609 2014-04-10 14:15:36 <shadders> gmaxwell: agreed
1610 2014-04-10 14:15:45 <sipa> shadders: the implementation running the network is the protocol
1611 2014-04-10 14:15:48 <gmaxwell> the network defines the protocol, it's a consensus system.
1612 2014-04-10 14:15:50 <sipa> whatever that is
1613 2014-04-10 14:16:08 <gmaxwell> certantly better tests and simulators and descriptions and clearer implementations are helpful.
1614 2014-04-10 14:16:11 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1615 2014-04-10 14:16:17 <sipa> standards can only try to describe the behaviour, not prescribe it
1616 2014-04-10 14:16:27 <shadders> sipa: so how does that gel with the idea that we will have other implementations coming online soon (like it or not)...
1617 2014-04-10 14:16:38 <sipa> shadders: i think it will be painful
1618 2014-04-10 14:16:44 <shadders> Yes it will...
1619 2014-04-10 14:16:53 Lao_Ban_ has joined
1620 2014-04-10 14:17:08 <sipa> and i think trying to reimplement the consensus rules is a bad idea - but i wouldn't want to stop anyone from doing so
1621 2014-04-10 14:17:29 espringe has quit (Quit: espringe)
1622 2014-04-10 14:17:44 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1623 2014-04-10 14:17:45 <sipa> i think we should aim to abstract out the consensus rules out of the reference client so they can be reused in different implementations (which can have their own storage systems, wallet systems, databases, indexes, policies, ...)
1624 2014-04-10 14:18:26 <shadders> I've sensed in conversations about this here (and in other places) a bit of a head in sand feeling... I hear a lot of people presenting very good argument for why we shouldn't have alt implementations.  But it's really inevitable it's going to happen...
1625 2014-04-10 14:18:49 <gmaxwell> Doing bitcoin again I would have bytecoded the consensus rules with a simple simulator that was easy to test and hard to get wrong and said 'use exactly this bytecode as the consensus definition of the system'.
1626 2014-04-10 14:19:00 <gmaxwell> No one is saying that.
1627 2014-04-10 14:19:19 <sipa> We absolutelty should have alt implementations. Just not of the consensus rules :)
1628 2014-04-10 14:19:24 <shadders> sipa: What you're saying is what I've been calling 'define the protocol'... I understand it can probably never be exhaustively defined... But we gotta try.
1629 2014-04-10 14:19:28 byron has joined
1630 2014-04-10 14:19:35 <sipa> you can't define it
1631 2014-04-10 14:19:37 <sipa> you can document it
1632 2014-04-10 14:19:41 <sipa> (and we should)
1633 2014-04-10 14:19:55 <gmaxwell> Mistaking a straight up factual statement that a reimplementation of the consensus rules _which must be precise or people get robbed because bitcoin is a cryptosystem_ is dangerous and that software engineering doesn't really know how to do it, isn't a statement that other implementations of bitcoin shouldn't exist.
1634 2014-04-10 14:20:10 <shadders> sipa: that should be put up in lights ;)
1635 2014-04-10 14:20:17 espringe has joined
1636 2014-04-10 14:20:27 <shadders> "you can't define it, you can document it"
1637 2014-04-10 14:21:11 djcoin_ has quit (Quit: djcoin_)
1638 2014-04-10 14:21:33 <shadders> gmaxwell: You may not be arguing that but other influential people in bitcoinland have, some with extraordinary passion
1639 2014-04-10 14:21:50 <gmaxwell> You mean Satoshi, for example?
1640 2014-04-10 14:22:05 mkarrer has joined
1641 2014-04-10 14:22:06 <shadders> lol... yes that's one example
1642 2014-04-10 14:22:11 <hearn> and me
1643 2014-04-10 14:22:14 rdymac has joined
1644 2014-04-10 14:22:20 <hearn> shadders: please give up on this before you lose other people’s money
1645 2014-04-10 14:22:25 <shadders> and another :p
1646 2014-04-10 14:22:40 <hearn> there are _no_ good reasons to reimplement the consensus system (or most of Core, to be honest). “i don’t want to learn C++” is not a good reason
1647 2014-04-10 14:22:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: real    1m26.106s
1648 2014-04-10 14:22:41 <shadders> hearn: I'm not about to implement an alt client...
1649 2014-04-10 14:22:53 <hearn> ok, so why do you care about asking miners to do so?
1650 2014-04-10 14:22:58 <shadders> Other people already have... and more will...
1651 2014-04-10 14:23:08 <hearn> yes, and those people are either lost money, or come dangerously close to it
1652 2014-04-10 14:23:28 <shadders> So we ignore that fact or try to deal with it?
1653 2014-04-10 14:23:39 <hearn> it’s a self solving problem. people who ignore our advice on this matter can lose $$$
1654 2014-04-10 14:23:54 <shadders> hearn: how do you propose that that the bitcoin community handle this issue?
1655 2014-04-10 14:24:11 <hearn> the same way it always has: tell people to minimise their risk by running Core, and have the protocol be documented in C++
1656 2014-04-10 14:24:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: can't seem to break 85 microseconds/core.
1657 2014-04-10 14:24:15 byron has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1658 2014-04-10 14:24:48 <sipa> gmaxwell: try signatures for which r/s and 1/s have lots of 0 bits!
1659 2014-04-10 14:25:07 <shadders> And when someone comes out with a shiny new client with feature X is that argument going to convince them all Mike?
1660 2014-04-10 14:25:09 <sipa> (or lots of 1 bits)
1661 2014-04-10 14:25:35 <sipa> shadders: that is why i think we start by giving the example and making the core node implementation separate from the concept of "client"
1662 2014-04-10 14:25:35 yubrew has joined
1663 2014-04-10 14:25:40 <sipa> shadders: and any client can run on it
1664 2014-04-10 14:25:50 Grouver has joined
1665 2014-04-10 14:26:30 <sipa> so that "fancy new feature" has no relevance for the node running underneath (if any)
1666 2014-04-10 14:26:33 <shadders> hearn: Until recently there haven't been alternatives... So to suggest that argument has kept people from alt clients so far is a little misguided
1667 2014-04-10 14:26:56 lclc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1668 2014-04-10 14:26:56 OneFixt_ has joined
1669 2014-04-10 14:27:00 <hearn> we’re talking about code that checks a lot of complicated rules against a database. there is no “fancy feature” anyone can add
1670 2014-04-10 14:27:17 OneFixt has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1671 2014-04-10 14:27:22 <hearn> shadders: you just said yourself, some people have, and i told you some of them lost money
1672 2014-04-10 14:27:25 <sipa> except performance
1673 2014-04-10 14:27:32 <hearn> so there have been alternatives, and nobody sensible uses them
1674 2014-04-10 14:27:37 <hearn> see? problem solved.
1675 2014-04-10 14:28:05 <hearn> sipa: yeah except 99% of the alt impls i’ve seen eventually conclude that to beat Core they have to switch to LevelDB and use libsecp256k1 too, so …. i’m not sure others can easily beat Core on performance. especially as they’re often written in slower languages
1676 2014-04-10 14:28:07 OneFixt_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1677 2014-04-10 14:28:22 <hearn> it’s _possible_ of course. but so far it seems like it’s not been easy
1678 2014-04-10 14:28:25 <sipa> i'm sure there already are implementations that sync faster
1679 2014-04-10 14:28:34 <hearn> sipa: which one are you thinking of?
1680 2014-04-10 14:28:52 espringe has quit (Quit: espringe)
1681 2014-04-10 14:28:53 <gmaxwell> the clusterfuck with out of order blocks is severely hurting the performance right now.
1682 2014-04-10 14:28:57 <sipa> yup
1683 2014-04-10 14:29:11 * sipa encourages review of #3884
1684 2014-04-10 14:29:22 <gmaxwell> faster than core with -connect=  no, nothing close.  Off the public network?  ... we're not so far from it just never converging.
1685 2014-04-10 14:29:35 <sipa> even with -connect you get orphans
1686 2014-04-10 14:29:48 <sipa> no?
1687 2014-04-10 14:29:54 <hearn> right. i think the steady state is the interesting state though
1688 2014-04-10 14:29:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: I suppose you would, you don't get both orphans and stuck though.
1689 2014-04-10 14:30:11 <shadders> hearn: "so there have been alternatives, and nobody sensible uses them"  that's history Mike... It may continue to be the case but do you really think it will continue forever?
1690 2014-04-10 14:30:12 <sipa> right
1691 2014-04-10 14:30:25 <sipa> shadders: we don't know
1692 2014-04-10 14:30:35 xdotcomm_ has joined
1693 2014-04-10 14:31:08 OneFixt has joined
1694 2014-04-10 14:31:26 OneFixt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1695 2014-04-10 14:31:44 OneFixt has joined
1696 2014-04-10 14:32:00 <shadders> hearn: FWIW you actually did convince me... My own ideas that I talked about to you I've abandoned as a result of that conversation... However I do not accept that alt client can be crushed out of existence and that they won't happen ever so I've turned my attention to how to make it safer when the inevitable does occur...
1697 2014-04-10 14:32:32 tjopper has joined
1698 2014-04-10 14:32:35 <wumpus> an alt client could in principle use the same consensus code
1699 2014-04-10 14:32:48 <hearn> then it’s not really an alt client, is it
1700 2014-04-10 14:33:03 * Luke-Jr goes to implement consensus code in Perl
1701 2014-04-10 14:33:04 <sipa> i think a client is much much more than just consensus rules
1702 2014-04-10 14:33:13 <gmaxwell> sure it is, all the stuff users care about is not the consensus stuff.
1703 2014-04-10 14:33:16 <stqism> Curious, what was the justification for using a library as large and hard to maintain like OpenSSL? Doesn't really address rpc, but NaCl would of been a great choice; or CyaSSL on the rpc side.
1704 2014-04-10 14:33:16 <wumpus> well if you customize everything, apart from the consensus code, it's pretty much an alternative client
1705 2014-04-10 14:33:17 <shadders> wumpus: I'm talking about re implementations
1706 2014-04-10 14:33:20 <sipa> it's also relay policy, databases, p2p protocol implementation, ...
1707 2014-04-10 14:33:23 <gmaxwell> The consensus stuff is only good when its invisible. :P
1708 2014-04-10 14:33:24 xdotcommer has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1709 2014-04-10 14:33:50 <hearn> stqism: ask satoshi. probably, it was there
1710 2014-04-10 14:33:53 <helo> devs wanting to use different languages probably has some weight in the creation of alt clients
1711 2014-04-10 14:34:03 <stqism> hearn: That might take a while :)
1712 2014-04-10 14:34:07 <hearn> sipa: given that the last really bad fork we had was due to a different database ....
1713 2014-04-10 14:34:14 <wumpus> helo: then turn the consensus code in a library and make bindings for your favourite language
1714 2014-04-10 14:34:23 <gmaxwell> I think it's likely our next major release will be buildable without openssl at all.
1715 2014-04-10 14:34:24 <Luke-Jr> stqism: using a well-tested security-conscious library for its most-commonly-used purpose is not something ill advisable
1716 2014-04-10 14:34:26 <helo> wumpus: yep, that's exactly what i was thinking :)
1717 2014-04-10 14:34:28 <sipa> hearn: not really; it was a bug that treated database errors as failed validation
1718 2014-04-10 14:34:32 wrabbit has joined
1719 2014-04-10 14:34:42 <sipa> hearn: in which case the problem would have been a DoS attack and not a forking bug
1720 2014-04-10 14:34:42 <wumpus> it's really not rocket science, just implementation work, which means it's less likely to happen becaue people here like rocket science
1721 2014-04-10 14:34:47 Guest19691 has quit (Quit: leaving)
1722 2014-04-10 14:35:13 lclc has joined
1723 2014-04-10 14:35:15 <stqism> Luke-Jr: Both CyaSSL and NaCl are peer audited, and are smaller and well maintained ANSI C codebases
1724 2014-04-10 14:35:20 <wumpus> gmaxwell: that would be a nice target I can agree with
1725 2014-04-10 14:35:42 <Luke-Jr> stqism: who ever uses CyaSSL? NaCL is non-free and not a TLS implementation at all AFAIK..
1726 2014-04-10 14:35:49 <wumpus> next version as in 'next major version'
1727 2014-04-10 14:36:00 <gmaxwell> wumpus: we're pretty close. need to merge secp256k1, cory's script changes.  Luke wrote half the base58, we need the other half and a couple other places where some bignums have crept in.
1728 2014-04-10 14:36:09 <wumpus> I'm for doing a 0.9.2 sooner that just fixes the (few) warts we've found in 0.9.0
1729 2014-04-10 14:36:16 <shadders> stqism: That was my original argument.. To open up development to people who are versed in different languages.  Though hearn did manage to convince me that wasn't really a good enough reason... Well what he convinced me of was I wasn't really willing to accept the responsibility for the outcome...
1730 2014-04-10 14:36:27 <hearn> btw, sipa
1731 2014-04-10 14:36:29 <gmaxwell> oh and the hashes/aes hm a little more annoying.
1732 2014-04-10 14:36:29 <hearn>     // (memory only) Number of transactions in the chain up to and including this block
1733 2014-04-10 14:36:29 <hearn>     unsigned int nChainTx; // change to 64-bit type when necessary; won't happen before 2030
1734 2014-04-10 14:36:35 <sipa> gmaxwell: let's implement jgarzik's identity system as payment protocol identity... so we don't need SSL :)
1735 2014-04-10 14:36:36 <hearn> that’s only true if the block size remains limited to 1mb right?
1736 2014-04-10 14:36:40 impulse has joined
1737 2014-04-10 14:36:47 <stqism> Luke-Jr: For sha256, and NaCl is open source. CyaSSL is actually well used in the embedded field, uses a lot less resources
1738 2014-04-10 14:36:53 DougieBot5000 has joined
1739 2014-04-10 14:37:01 <sipa> hearn: which is what the current code implements; if we increase the block limit, that comment needs updating too :p
1740 2014-04-10 14:37:16 <hearn> yeah. ok. we’ll have to remember to do that - it would be easy to miss
1741 2014-04-10 14:37:20 <shadders> but doesn't alter the fact that it's gonna happen anyway... so core devs need tools to mop up the mess that naive people like me (a few weeks ago) are going to make...
1742 2014-04-10 14:37:21 <hearn> why not just make it 64 bit to start with?
1743 2014-04-10 14:37:26 <stqism> sipa: gmaxwell Gosh, crypto_auth from NaCl is a nicer choice :)
1744 2014-04-10 14:37:29 <sipa> hearn: pullreq welcome
1745 2014-04-10 14:37:57 <gmaxwell> stqism: huh? nicer choice than what?
1746 2014-04-10 14:38:01 <shadders> We deal with openly hostile attacks... Why not unintentionally dangerous activity?
1747 2014-04-10 14:38:09 <Luke-Jr> stqism: pretty sure we don't use OpenSSL for SHA256. and open source is not necessarily free.
1748 2014-04-10 14:38:16 <sipa> Luke-Jr: we do
1749 2014-04-10 14:38:19 <hearn> stqism: the problem with OpenSSL is not resource usage
1750 2014-04-10 14:38:36 <hearn> stqism: the problem is that it’s a classical C codebase. switching from one crappy pile of C to another pile of C is not necessarily a win
1751 2014-04-10 14:38:43 <sipa> (but SHA256 is trivial to swap out for another implementation)
1752 2014-04-10 14:38:46 <stqism> hearn: My issue with OpenSSL is that it's hard to maintain and complicated
1753 2014-04-10 14:38:47 <gmaxwell> we we didn't used to at one point, as I vaguely recall but we do now.. but come on sha256 is a 150 line trivial function.
1754 2014-04-10 14:38:52 <Luke-Jr> sipa: even though we have a SHA256 impl in main.cpp?
1755 2014-04-10 14:39:00 <sipa> we do?
1756 2014-04-10 14:39:17 <Luke-Jr> yes
1757 2014-04-10 14:39:19 <sipa> there's a partial one in miner.cpp
1758 2014-04-10 14:39:20 <stqism> hearn: It's generally regarded as a joke if you're building a secure application
1759 2014-04-10 14:39:20 indy has joined
1760 2014-04-10 14:39:29 <hearn> stqism: it’s complicated because TLS has lots of features, some of which we might care about. given that so far 3 major C based SSL stacks have all had security-critical failures in them …. well
1761 2014-04-10 14:39:48 <hearn> i’d much rather find one that’s either very modern C++ or just strip out the parts of Core that use openssl entirely, as is being done already
1762 2014-04-10 14:40:00 <Luke-Jr> stqism: everything using TLS uses OpenSSL
1763 2014-04-10 14:40:02 <hearn> (for the payment protocol a lot of people are migrating to either web or java based wallets -> safer)
1764 2014-04-10 14:40:10 <helo> shadders: hopefully most people wanting to write an alt client will do the same as you, either in here or on the mailing list. and at that point, they'll probably be led to the same conclusion as you.
1765 2014-04-10 14:40:10 <stqism> hearn: Hence CyaSSL. Security in Simplicity, and ANSI C.
1766 2014-04-10 14:40:11 <gmaxwell> stqism: NSS had a severe day-1 remote code execution exploit solved two months ago, but turns out that no one happened to notice.
1767 2014-04-10 14:40:13 <Luke-Jr> some offer alternatives as alternative options
1768 2014-04-10 14:40:27 <stqism> gmaxwell: I'm still throwing around CyaSSL
1769 2014-04-10 14:40:30 <wumpus> at some point we switched to using OpenSSL for SHA256 as we used OpenSSL anyway, we embedded some other crypto lib (cryptopp?) first
1770 2014-04-10 14:40:35 <hearn> stqism: “ANSI C” makes me cringe. that is NOT a good thing.
1771 2014-04-10 14:40:44 <gmaxwell> stqism: seriously these things are all fairly bad and have all had severe vulnerabilties at at times. please stop fanboying in here.
1772 2014-04-10 14:40:50 <stqism> hearn: Throwing odd extensions at shit is?
1773 2014-04-10 14:40:54 Burrito has joined
1774 2014-04-10 14:40:54 Burrito has quit (Changing host)
1775 2014-04-10 14:40:54 Burrito has joined
1776 2014-04-10 14:40:57 JackH has quit (Quit: JackH)
1777 2014-04-10 14:41:02 gorran has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1778 2014-04-10 14:41:06 <Luke-Jr> stqism: ANSI is like 1980s C
1779 2014-04-10 14:41:13 <stqism> Luke-Jr: I know ;_;
1780 2014-04-10 14:41:15 <hearn> if those “odd extensions” give you memory safety and fewer buffers, yes. the world has moved on since the days of 8 bit CPUs, you know
1781 2014-04-10 14:41:23 <Luke-Jr> stqism: C99, C11, C++11, etc are not "odd extensions"
1782 2014-04-10 14:41:27 <hearn> anyway, as gmaxwell said, please take the language fanboyism elsewher
1783 2014-04-10 14:41:35 bkbk has joined
1784 2014-04-10 14:41:50 <stqism> Luke-Jr: I was referring to things like GNU99
1785 2014-04-10 14:42:00 <Luke-Jr> stqism: nobody suggested GNU99
1786 2014-04-10 14:42:34 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: where is the sha256 in main.cpp? I tried searching for some of the constants.
1787 2014-04-10 14:42:45 <wumpus> C++11 is nice, I first hated it because it bolted even more complexity to an already patchwork language, but the new additions are actually nice
1788 2014-04-10 14:42:57 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: it moved to miner I guess; I had 0.8.x checked out
1789 2014-04-10 14:43:08 <stqism> Luke-Jr: Extensions like that are one of those things that creep up, it compiles, no one notices, until one day someone attempts to compile it with the Sun Optimizing Compiler and gets a hundred errors
1790 2014-04-10 14:43:18 <Luke-Jr> wumpus has given us the okay for lambda expressions in Bitcoin Core!
1791 2014-04-10 14:43:19 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: oh we have that because we need midstate access I bet.
1792 2014-04-10 14:43:19 * Luke-Jr hides
1793 2014-04-10 14:44:02 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: maybe. might as well use it, though..
1794 2014-04-10 14:44:23 Michail1 is now known as Michail_MX
1795 2014-04-10 14:44:26 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's actually not complete.
1796 2014-04-10 14:44:33 <Luke-Jr> x.x
1797 2014-04-10 14:44:36 <shadders> helo: except they haven't... genjix has built one... jgarzik, 2 java implementations I know of (not including bitcoinj which will be losing it's full validation code soon I believe)... and a few others... That's just so far
1798 2014-04-10 14:44:45 <stqism> You folks are talking about lambdas and I still can't compile 9.x on FreeBSD ;_;
1799 2014-04-10 14:45:01 <hearn> shadders: and nobody uses them, so …..
1800 2014-04-10 14:45:06 lclc has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1801 2014-04-10 14:45:19 <shadders> hearn: yet...
1802 2014-04-10 14:45:44 <Elriel> one haskell implementation too, although, I'm not sure if it was ever finished.
1803 2014-04-10 14:46:13 <shadders> hearn: If you think that will always be the case then no worries, just continue telling people "don't make an alt client".
1804 2014-04-10 14:46:31 <wumpus> Elriel: purecoin!
1805 2014-04-10 14:46:43 <Elriel> wumpus: yes, purecoin :)
1806 2014-04-10 14:46:47 <wumpus> Elriel: no, it was never finished :-( like most haskell projects
1807 2014-04-10 14:46:53 <helo> shadders: with a consensus system like this, it's just infeasible to write an implementation feature-for-feature, and bug-for-bug. particularly with the stakes so potentially high...
1808 2014-04-10 14:47:01 austinhill has joined
1809 2014-04-10 14:47:04 <hearn> i’m sure some people will use alt impls without understanding the dangers. part of the reason we are writing a developer guide is so “folk knowledge” like this can be distilled and put into a decent form, so we can make a note about it there
1810 2014-04-10 14:47:24 <Luke-Jr> as soon as an alt implementation supports GBT, I'm deploying it to Eligius
1811 2014-04-10 14:47:28 <helo> there isn't an optimal fix other than for people to learn over time what is safe
1812 2014-04-10 14:47:43 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you also have block tasting so it's not quite the same.
1813 2014-04-10 14:47:47 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: :P
1814 2014-04-10 14:48:35 mcsnugs has joined
1815 2014-04-10 14:49:10 <wumpus> is there anything stopping us from doing that bytecode idea anyway? (compiling the consensus code to bytecode through clang and calling that the 'holy' implementation)
1816 2014-04-10 14:49:23 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: way too complicated I think?
1817 2014-04-10 14:49:35 VossArtesian has joined
1818 2014-04-10 14:49:38 <wumpus> complicated? nah...
1819 2014-04-10 14:49:50 <shadders> helo: I get that.. I just don't accept that an eco system a large as bitcoin is going to sit on it's hands and accept only one client forever.  Sure there will be attempts that result in fuckups... But to base forward strategy on the blind hope that it will never happen is just naive.
1820 2014-04-10 14:50:02 rdbell has joined
1821 2014-04-10 14:50:12 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: besides, it's not really any different from a library
1822 2014-04-10 14:50:22 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: well in a way it is -- it locks in the platform
1823 2014-04-10 14:50:31 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: you'd always emulate a 32-bit little endian platform
1824 2014-04-10 14:50:45 <wumpus> (or, 64...)
1825 2014-04-10 14:50:47 <shadders> wumpus: I'm liking that idea...
1826 2014-04-10 14:51:11 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's not especially complicated. performance might be a concern.
1827 2014-04-10 14:51:27 <wumpus> the problem is that, in a way, leveldb is part of the consensus code... and openssl at this point..
1828 2014-04-10 14:51:27 <Luke-Jr> let's make it TinyRAM while we're at it.
1829 2014-04-10 14:51:34 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes!
1830 2014-04-10 14:52:14 <gmaxwell> Well moxie is almost tinyram, and has an existing toolchain, and the implementation is really simple, but this stounds like a sunkworks project...
1831 2014-04-10 14:52:20 VossArtesian has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1832 2014-04-10 14:52:27 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: bitcoin core, now with JIT :-)
1833 2014-04-10 14:52:50 <wumpus> sunkworks?
1834 2014-04-10 14:52:59 <gmaxwell> wumpus: wrt things like leveldb ... sort of though mostly if it goes wrong it just fails the node now. (we hope)
1835 2014-04-10 14:53:31 ryanxcharles has joined
1836 2014-04-10 14:53:40 <gmaxwell> wumpus: some sort of researchy secret project. It's not clear how well it would pan out. :)
1837 2014-04-10 14:54:57 Jere_Jones has joined
1838 2014-04-10 14:54:57 Jere_Jones has quit (Changing host)
1839 2014-04-10 14:54:57 Jere_Jones has joined
1840 2014-04-10 14:54:58 VossArtesian has joined
1841 2014-04-10 14:55:39 <wumpus> gmaxwell: it may be more likely that it would work than trying to destill a human-readable spec which is entirely correct and complete, at least it would be (mostly) an automated process
1842 2014-04-10 14:56:01 zcopley has joined
1843 2014-04-10 14:57:11 idok has joined
1844 2014-04-10 14:58:48 <gmaxwell> wumpus: right, the process can be as simple as, extract existing consensus code, compile for simulator... marshall data in and out of the simulator. I'm hoping the work to try it will approach zero over time as most of it is in step 1 there, which regular cleanups and refacorings should end up doing a lot of.
1845 2014-04-10 15:00:03 ido370k has joined
1846 2014-04-10 15:00:17 ido370 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1847 2014-04-10 15:00:42 Grouver has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1848 2014-04-10 15:01:11 arubi has joined
1849 2014-04-10 15:02:08 lclc has joined
1850 2014-04-10 15:02:23 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
1851 2014-04-10 15:03:03 idok has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1852 2014-04-10 15:03:31 wallet42 has joined
1853 2014-04-10 15:04:52 xdotcommer has joined
1854 2014-04-10 15:05:01 phrackage has quit (Quit: phrackage)
1855 2014-04-10 15:06:23 <hearn> sipa: sigh, these huge changes to the core consensus code make me scared. i wonder if we _should_ just tell people to initialise themselves via a torrent ...
1856 2014-04-10 15:07:51 xdotcomm_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1857 2014-04-10 15:08:43 irungentoo_ has joined
1858 2014-04-10 15:09:09 Jere_Jones has quit ()
1859 2014-04-10 15:10:01 <wumpus> we already tell people that
1860 2014-04-10 15:10:29 <sipa> hearn: i think that independently of it improving syncup we need headers-first
1861 2014-04-10 15:11:05 <sipa> hearn: it deals better with orphans, allows us to get rid of checkpoints, is a basis for implementing SPV, ...
1862 2014-04-10 15:11:10 <wumpus> it's good to be careful, but I think giving up any kind of progress because of fear of touching the code is a bad idea
1863 2014-04-10 15:11:13 <hearn> yeah
1864 2014-04-10 15:11:16 <hearn> fair enoug
1865 2014-04-10 15:11:17 eristisk has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1866 2014-04-10 15:11:18 <hearn> *enough
1867 2014-04-10 15:11:19 <gmaxwell> it's also really freeking broken as is. :)
1868 2014-04-10 15:11:31 <wumpus> if anything, people *will* go build alt implementations if core is broken enough
1869 2014-04-10 15:11:37 <gmaxwell> plus it's 'only' block fetching which does tend to have somewhat more mild failure modes.
1870 2014-04-10 15:11:40 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1871 2014-04-10 15:12:04 <gmaxwell> I've seen people in other alt implementation channels trying them out after getting pissed off on day N of their syncup.
1872 2014-04-10 15:12:06 <sipa> hearn: thanks for the comments; i'll have a look at them later
1873 2014-04-10 15:13:00 <hearn> sipa: nothing major, mostly just minor style things.
1874 2014-04-10 15:13:02 <hearn> i really wish github would do a proper code review tool instead of their miserable excuse for one. it can be a bit hard to really keep all the changes in your head with their current view
1875 2014-04-10 15:13:13 <hearn> instead they implement diff viewers for 3D objects and write their own text editors. sigh.
1876 2014-04-10 15:13:48 <wumpus> hearn: +100
1877 2014-04-10 15:13:58 JackH has joined
1878 2014-04-10 15:14:05 <wumpus> hearn: I've mailed them about missing features in their code review many times
1879 2014-04-10 15:14:06 <sipa> hearn: if anything, comments of the form "can you please put a comment here to describe what happens if ..." are very useful, as it shows where flow isn't clear
1880 2014-04-10 15:14:09 <shadders> bitbucket does a much nicer job of it
1881 2014-04-10 15:14:23 <hearn> i was looking at bitbucket lately for hosting my own projects
1882 2014-04-10 15:14:34 <wumpus> hearn: for example, even something simple as making it possible to increase the context, or scaling better to large diffs
1883 2014-04-10 15:14:37 <hearn> it’s also free for smaller stuff which is nice. but not really sure it’s the right place to go
1884 2014-04-10 15:14:57 <hearn> wumpus: i tend to use the built in IntelliJ diff viewer, which is hardly a code review tool, but at least you get static analysis and side by side view
1885 2014-04-10 15:15:04 <wumpus> hearn: and the issue system could be improved too... they have lots of paying customers, why don't they work on this basic stuff
1886 2014-04-10 15:15:27 <shadders> hearn: it's free for anything that's open... They only start charging if you go over 5 private team projects
1887 2014-04-10 15:15:34 <hearn> yeah
1888 2014-04-10 15:15:39 <hearn> i was looking for private projects
1889 2014-04-10 15:15:55 <hearn> wumpus: company coasting on network effects, imo. it’s the new facebook :)
1890 2014-04-10 15:16:32 Arnavion has quit (Quit: Arnavion)
1891 2014-04-10 15:16:47 Arnavion has joined
1892 2014-04-10 15:16:53 hearn has quit (Quit: hearn)
1893 2014-04-10 15:16:57 <wumpus> hearn: yes, their network effect is extremely strong, it's pulling almost all open source projects towards them, centralizing a decentralized revision system
1894 2014-04-10 15:17:06 espringe has joined
1895 2014-04-10 15:17:35 <sipa> up to the point where if someone puts a mirror of some project on github, people start assuming it's the authoritative source :)
1896 2014-04-10 15:18:25 <wumpus> sipa: yes I've seen that happen too
1897 2014-04-10 15:19:44 lclc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1898 2014-04-10 15:20:14 21WAABBQW has joined
1899 2014-04-10 15:22:55 ido370k has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1900 2014-04-10 15:24:11 eristisk has joined
1901 2014-04-10 15:24:37 astrolabe1 has joined
1902 2014-04-10 15:24:52 21WAABBQW has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1903 2014-04-10 15:25:01 jordandotdev has joined
1904 2014-04-10 15:25:31 <gmaxwell> even rietveld does better review than github. alas
1905 2014-04-10 15:26:47 damethos has joined
1906 2014-04-10 15:26:50 astrolabe has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1907 2014-04-10 15:26:51 astrolabe1 is now known as astrolabe
1908 2014-04-10 15:26:59 Soligor has joined
1909 2014-04-10 15:27:20 astrolabe is now known as Guest59236
1910 2014-04-10 15:27:49 lclc has joined
1911 2014-04-10 15:27:58 lclc has left ()
1912 2014-04-10 15:28:18 Belxjander has joined
1913 2014-04-10 15:28:20 mcsnugs has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1914 2014-04-10 15:28:39 gavinandresen has joined
1915 2014-04-10 15:29:24 Guest99852 has joined
1916 2014-04-10 15:29:38 Guest99852 is now known as Sleepnbum
1917 2014-04-10 15:29:54 VossArtesian has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
1918 2014-04-10 15:31:57 gorran has joined
1919 2014-04-10 15:34:08 Subo1977_ has joined
1920 2014-04-10 15:35:46 licnep has quit (Quit: quit)
1921 2014-04-10 15:38:31 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1922 2014-04-10 15:39:37 ThomasV has joined
1923 2014-04-10 15:39:40 Belxjander has quit (Quit: System Restarting!!!)
1924 2014-04-10 15:40:34 bbbrian has joined
1925 2014-04-10 15:40:36 lolstate has joined
1926 2014-04-10 15:42:02 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1927 2014-04-10 15:42:16 licnep_ has joined
1928 2014-04-10 15:46:57 Sleepnbum has quit ()
1929 2014-04-10 15:47:28 ryanxcharles has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1930 2014-04-10 15:48:02 Sleepnbum has joined
1931 2014-04-10 15:48:27 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1932 2014-04-10 15:48:27 ryanxcharles has joined
1933 2014-04-10 15:48:53 VossArtesian has joined
1934 2014-04-10 15:49:08 johnsoft has joined
1935 2014-04-10 15:49:47 w1zman has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1936 2014-04-10 15:50:00 w1zman has joined
1937 2014-04-10 15:52:40 ryanxcharles has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1938 2014-04-10 15:53:21 koolhaas has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
1939 2014-04-10 15:53:36 austinhill has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1940 2014-04-10 15:53:46 qwebirc53397 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1941 2014-04-10 15:55:42 debianto1user has joined
1942 2014-04-10 15:55:57 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1943 2014-04-10 15:57:31 eristisk has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1944 2014-04-10 15:58:13 DrHaribo_ is now known as DrHaribo
1945 2014-04-10 15:58:46 anddam has left ("WeeChat 0.4.3")
1946 2014-04-10 15:58:47 DrHaribo has quit (Changing host)
1947 2014-04-10 15:58:47 DrHaribo has joined
1948 2014-04-10 15:59:58 Namworld has joined
1949 2014-04-10 16:00:47 coingenuity has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1950 2014-04-10 16:01:20 Cray-on- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1951 2014-04-10 16:03:18 wallet42 has joined
1952 2014-04-10 16:04:07 viajero has joined
1953 2014-04-10 16:04:58 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1954 2014-04-10 16:06:03 Cray-on- has joined
1955 2014-04-10 16:07:48 nsh has joined
1956 2014-04-10 16:07:48 nsh has quit (Changing host)
1957 2014-04-10 16:07:48 nsh has joined
1958 2014-04-10 16:09:03 hearn has joined
1959 2014-04-10 16:09:35 Lexa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1960 2014-04-10 16:10:26 cheetah2 has joined
1961 2014-04-10 16:10:29 Lexa has joined
1962 2014-04-10 16:10:41 Cray-on- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1963 2014-04-10 16:10:42 debianto1user has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1964 2014-04-10 16:10:51 llllllllll has quit ()
1965 2014-04-10 16:14:03 tombtc has joined
1966 2014-04-10 16:15:08 xtor has joined
1967 2014-04-10 16:15:35 Cray-on- has joined
1968 2014-04-10 16:19:15 debiantoruser has joined
1969 2014-04-10 16:19:42 espringe has quit (Quit: espringe)
1970 2014-04-10 16:19:48 lclc has joined
1971 2014-04-10 16:21:28 Ad0 has left ()
1972 2014-04-10 16:22:18 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1973 2014-04-10 16:22:28 nsh has joined
1974 2014-04-10 16:23:14 Belxjander has joined
1975 2014-04-10 16:23:49 zcopley has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1976 2014-04-10 16:24:45 Guest59236 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1977 2014-04-10 16:25:43 Dagger2 is now known as Dagger
1978 2014-04-10 16:26:09 lclc has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1979 2014-04-10 16:27:03 cris has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1980 2014-04-10 16:27:09 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1981 2014-04-10 16:28:10 darwin_ has joined
1982 2014-04-10 16:29:20 Coincidental has joined
1983 2014-04-10 16:29:25 espringe has joined
1984 2014-04-10 16:31:13 rdbell has quit (Quit: rdbell)
1985 2014-04-10 16:32:33 cris has joined
1986 2014-04-10 16:32:38 byron_ has joined
1987 2014-04-10 16:33:25 krysits has joined
1988 2014-04-10 16:34:12 SwampTony has joined
1989 2014-04-10 16:34:46 krysits has left ()
1990 2014-04-10 16:36:22 mE\Ta has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1991 2014-04-10 16:36:45 austinhill has joined
1992 2014-04-10 16:38:27 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1993 2014-04-10 16:38:27 theymos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1994 2014-04-10 16:38:56 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1995 2014-04-10 16:39:16 cheetah2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1996 2014-04-10 16:40:16 theymos has joined
1997 2014-04-10 16:41:46 cheetah2 has joined
1998 2014-04-10 16:42:15 EmLeX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1999 2014-04-10 16:42:40 nsh has joined
2000 2014-04-10 16:43:19 abossard has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2001 2014-04-10 16:44:01 [\\\] has quit (Quit: [\\\])
2002 2014-04-10 16:44:17 [\\\] has joined
2003 2014-04-10 16:46:16 jrmithdobbs has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2004 2014-04-10 16:47:15 gorran has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2005 2014-04-10 16:47:32 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2006 2014-04-10 16:47:44 mE\Ta has joined
2007 2014-04-10 16:48:05 cagedwisdom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2008 2014-04-10 16:48:36 bbbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2009 2014-04-10 16:51:17 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
2010 2014-04-10 16:52:21 damethos has joined
2011 2014-04-10 16:55:02 Guest27267 is now known as phantomcircuit
2012 2014-04-10 16:55:50 byron_ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2013 2014-04-10 16:59:05 Cray-on- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2014 2014-04-10 16:59:10 nsh has joined
2015 2014-04-10 17:00:22 orperelman has joined
2016 2014-04-10 17:01:43 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2017 2014-04-10 17:05:15 Cray-on- has joined
2018 2014-04-10 17:06:34 neuroMode has left ()
2019 2014-04-10 17:09:32 Cray-on- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2020 2014-04-10 17:10:42 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2021 2014-04-10 17:10:42 Krellan__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2022 2014-04-10 17:10:55 gorran has joined
2023 2014-04-10 17:12:18 debiantoruser has joined
2024 2014-04-10 17:14:03 Cray-on- has joined
2025 2014-04-10 17:15:25 nickler has joined
2026 2014-04-10 17:16:42 austinhill has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2027 2014-04-10 17:16:57 jcv_ has joined
2028 2014-04-10 17:17:52 austinhill has joined
2029 2014-04-10 17:18:06 Applicat_ has joined
2030 2014-04-10 17:18:30 jcv has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2031 2014-04-10 17:19:15 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2032 2014-04-10 17:19:36 austinhill has quit (Client Quit)
2033 2014-04-10 17:20:19 austinhill has joined
2034 2014-04-10 17:20:30 austinhill has quit (Client Quit)
2035 2014-04-10 17:21:21 VossArtesian has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2036 2014-04-10 17:22:58 the_2nd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2037 2014-04-10 17:23:46 bbbrian has joined
2038 2014-04-10 17:26:42 rnicoll has joined
2039 2014-04-10 17:27:30 qwebirc14527 has joined
2040 2014-04-10 17:27:56 qwebirc14527 has quit (Client Quit)
2041 2014-04-10 17:28:23 tych0 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2042 2014-04-10 17:29:33 lclc has joined
2043 2014-04-10 17:29:53 daybyter has joined
2044 2014-04-10 17:30:07 hearn has quit (Quit: hearn)
2045 2014-04-10 17:30:08 lclc has left ()
2046 2014-04-10 17:30:08 jcv_ has quit (Quit: leaving)
2047 2014-04-10 17:30:41 jcv has joined
2048 2014-04-10 17:33:26 cheetah2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2049 2014-04-10 17:33:52 rdbell has joined
2050 2014-04-10 17:34:03 mrkent has joined
2051 2014-04-10 17:34:31 darwin_ has quit ()
2052 2014-04-10 17:35:36 tych0 has joined
2053 2014-04-10 17:36:25 tych0 has quit (Client Quit)
2054 2014-04-10 17:37:04 tych0 has joined
2055 2014-04-10 17:37:54 topynate has joined
2056 2014-04-10 17:38:13 papa3 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2057 2014-04-10 17:38:25 hearn has joined
2058 2014-04-10 17:38:39 rnvk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2059 2014-04-10 17:38:44 papa3 has joined
2060 2014-04-10 17:38:46 rnvk_ has joined
2061 2014-04-10 17:38:50 MiningBuddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2062 2014-04-10 17:39:04 MiningBuddy has joined
2063 2014-04-10 17:40:02 roconnor has joined
2064 2014-04-10 17:40:29 neuroMode has joined
2065 2014-04-10 17:41:45 <hearn> bitcoinj now uses deterministic ECDSA
2066 2014-04-10 17:42:02 <hearn> i wonder if it should be mandated for txv=3
2067 2014-04-10 17:42:35 Cryo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2068 2014-04-10 17:44:19 rnvk has joined
2069 2014-04-10 17:44:30 cheetah2 has joined
2070 2014-04-10 17:44:41 tlrobinson has joined
2071 2014-04-10 17:44:57 tlrobinson has quit (Client Quit)
2072 2014-04-10 17:46:55 neuroMode is now known as mindseeder
2073 2014-04-10 17:47:03 rnvk_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2074 2014-04-10 17:48:31 ryanxcharles has joined
2075 2014-04-10 17:52:59 ryanxcharles has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2076 2014-04-10 17:55:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|hearn: why would it be mandated?
2077 2014-04-10 17:55:41 <hearn> less malleability
2078 2014-04-10 17:55:43 <hearn> more rigidity
2079 2014-04-10 17:55:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Will you also mandate specific fees?
2080 2014-04-10 17:56:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Because that's not malleability, it's the sender being able to change the transaction
2081 2014-04-10 17:56:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's much much harder to fight
2082 2014-04-10 17:56:51 bkbk has quit ()
2083 2014-04-10 17:57:03 <hearn> yeah it’s just in case someone finds a way to do malleability of signatures in ways not presently understood
2084 2014-04-10 17:57:06 <hearn> it’s an underexplored topic
2085 2014-04-10 17:57:08 <hearn> anyway, bbl
2086 2014-04-10 17:57:09 hearn has quit (Quit: hearn)
2087 2014-04-10 17:57:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you want to malleate a transaction that you've sent, there are many ways to do so besides resigning
2088 2014-04-10 17:57:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You just pay one satoshi more or less to fees
2089 2014-04-10 17:57:56 Applicat_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2090 2014-04-10 17:58:30 orperelman has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2091 2014-04-10 17:59:10 Grouver has joined
2092 2014-04-10 17:59:20 austinhill has joined
2093 2014-04-10 17:59:57 austinhill has quit (Client Quit)
2094 2014-04-10 18:01:48 Squidicuz has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2095 2014-04-10 18:02:33 rnvk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2096 2014-04-10 18:04:35 rnvk has joined
2097 2014-04-10 18:04:56 VossArtesian has joined
2098 2014-04-10 18:05:39 VossArtesian_ has joined
2099 2014-04-10 18:05:49 VossArtesian_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2100 2014-04-10 18:09:03 VossArtesian has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2101 2014-04-10 18:11:09 <berndj> what's the current thinking on address reuse vs recovering ECDSA private keys? how does that affect green addresses?
2102 2014-04-10 18:13:57 SrPx has joined
2103 2014-04-10 18:15:04 <SrPx> Hello, is it possible to build a system on top of bitcoin, where random people will deposit money in a wallet X, and then, after a few months, those users will vote in some other wallet for that money to go? Notice nobody has access to the wallet X until then.
2104 2014-04-10 18:15:12 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
2105 2014-04-10 18:15:39 <SrPx> also, is there a reddit for bitcoin ev?
2106 2014-04-10 18:15:40 ryanxcharles has joined
2107 2014-04-10 18:15:42 <SrPx> dev*
2108 2014-04-10 18:16:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Not that I know of
2109 2014-04-10 18:16:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There's a mailing list, though
2110 2014-04-10 18:17:13 <SrPx> Oh OK
2111 2014-04-10 18:17:47 austinhill has joined
2112 2014-04-10 18:18:57 MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2113 2014-04-10 18:18:57 <berndj> SrPx, you're almost exactly describing what we in .za call a "stokvel"
2114 2014-04-10 18:19:14 <SrPx> berndj: .za?
2115 2014-04-10 18:19:34 <berndj> south africa
2116 2014-04-10 18:20:00 <SrPx> berndj: interesting
2117 2014-04-10 18:20:10 ryanxcharles has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2118 2014-04-10 18:20:54 ryanxcharles has joined
2119 2014-04-10 18:23:03 austinhill has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2120 2014-04-10 18:25:20 grau has joined
2121 2014-04-10 18:25:50 <sipa> @later tell hearn You cannot prove that an ECDSA signature was created deterministically without revealing the private key
2122 2014-04-10 18:25:56 <sipa> ;later tell hearn You cannot prove that an ECDSA signature was created deterministically without revealing the private key
2123 2014-04-10 18:26:03 <sipa> ;;later tell hearn You cannot prove that an ECDSA signature was created deterministically without revealing the private key
2124 2014-04-10 18:26:03 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
2125 2014-04-10 18:26:47 McKay has left ()
2126 2014-04-10 18:28:26 brson has joined
2127 2014-04-10 18:31:19 damethos has joined
2128 2014-04-10 18:34:03 SrPx has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2129 2014-04-10 18:36:04 <rnicoll> third time lucky
2130 2014-04-10 18:38:00 <thermoman> after upgrading from 0.8.6 to 0.9.1 bitcoin-qt complained that a reindex is neccessary if txindex is to be changed. but i didn't change a thing in bitcoin.conf
2131 2014-04-10 18:38:01 ryanxcharles has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
2132 2014-04-10 18:38:42 Krellan_ has joined
2133 2014-04-10 18:39:17 Krellan_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2134 2014-04-10 18:39:27 <maraoz> I'm really interested in the merkle UTXO commitments idea being discussed on the mailing list, but have some questions. Would it bring a reduction in security just because it makes a 51% percent attack worse or are there other implications?
2135 2014-04-10 18:39:46 Krellan_ has joined
2136 2014-04-10 18:41:36 <sipa> maraoz: yeah, that's it; it reduces zero-trust security about history to SPV security
2137 2014-04-10 18:41:54 <sipa> which means you end up trusting mining power for more than just which branch, but also its validity
2138 2014-04-10 18:42:22 ryanxcharles has joined
2139 2014-04-10 18:45:15 Guest47489 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2140 2014-04-10 18:46:22 Neozonz has joined
2141 2014-04-10 18:46:26 ryanxcharles has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2142 2014-04-10 18:47:10 ryanxcharles has joined
2143 2014-04-10 18:48:01 <maraoz> I see, thanks.
2144 2014-04-10 18:48:29 austinhill has joined
2145 2014-04-10 18:48:51 Neozonz has quit (Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2146 2014-04-10 18:49:06 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2147 2014-04-10 18:49:56 austinhill has quit (Client Quit)
2148 2014-04-10 18:50:49 Pullphinger has joined
2149 2014-04-10 18:51:12 austinhill has joined
2150 2014-04-10 18:51:22 ryanxcharles has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2151 2014-04-10 18:51:56 ryanxcharles has joined
2152 2014-04-10 18:53:58 segy has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2153 2014-04-10 18:54:32 segy has joined
2154 2014-04-10 18:54:56 <midnightmagic> huh. Why did I for some reason think that gverify operated against the current build artifacts?
2155 2014-04-10 18:55:27 go1111111 has joined
2156 2014-04-10 18:55:28 sd^^ has joined
2157 2014-04-10 18:56:11 <sd^^> Correct me if I'm wrong here but IRC bootstrapping is dead, buried, and removed isn't it?
2158 2014-04-10 18:56:22 <midnightmagic> not quite, but close!
2159 2014-04-10 18:56:29 <sd^^> I ask because there is still a reference to it on the testnet page on the wiki
2160 2014-04-10 18:56:57 <sd^^> midnightmagic: It's not actually used by clients though? Even though it might still be implemented?
2161 2014-04-10 18:57:42 xdotcommer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2162 2014-04-10 18:57:57 <midnightmagic> sd^^: People running old-enough clients still use IRC to bootstrap. There aren't many of those people.
2163 2014-04-10 18:58:14 Dyaheon has quit ()
2164 2014-04-10 18:58:15 <sd^^> Ah. So not totally dead yet then
2165 2014-04-10 18:58:26 xdotcommer has joined
2166 2014-04-10 18:58:29 <midnightmagic> sd^^: Try convincing the old-client-people to upgrade. :)
2167 2014-04-10 18:58:45 <sd^^> Tricky. I could find their IPs I guess
2168 2014-04-10 18:58:56 jumpnmove has joined
2169 2014-04-10 18:59:07 <midnightmagic> sd^^: No, I mean it in the rhetorical sense. Some of them are super stubborn.
2170 2014-04-10 18:59:19 jumpnmove is now known as GhostJump
2171 2014-04-10 19:00:12 <sd^^> But in the current clients is the code removed or just inactive?
2172 2014-04-10 19:00:36 <midnightmagic> sd^^: I can't find it anymore. The only reference to "IRC" is a vestigal comment I think.
2173 2014-04-10 19:00:50 Dyaheon has joined
2174 2014-04-10 19:01:06 <sd^^> Which brings me to my next question. How on earth do I get an account to edit the wiki?
2175 2014-04-10 19:01:11 lolstate has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2176 2014-04-10 19:01:13 archrs has joined
2177 2014-04-10 19:01:24 lolstate_ has joined
2178 2014-04-10 19:01:25 <sipa> IRC bootstrapping was removed in 0.6.0, iirc
2179 2014-04-10 19:01:25 <sd^^> It annoys me it's wrong and I want to fix it
2180 2014-04-10 19:01:42 <midnightmagic> sd^^: There are currently 30 people on the old-old #bitcoin seed channel.
2181 2014-04-10 19:01:52 <sipa> and disabled by default in 0.4 or so
2182 2014-04-10 19:02:29 nsh has joined
2183 2014-04-10 19:02:34 <sd^^> That's some seriously old clients then. Maybe they were client that have been forgotten about
2184 2014-04-10 19:02:36 <midnightmagic> holy crap look at all the clonecoin irc bootstrap channels in there.
2185 2014-04-10 19:03:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|IRC bootstrapping is dead
2186 2014-04-10 19:03:15 <BlueMatt> lol
2187 2014-04-10 19:03:24 <BlueMatt> we should get sirius to shutdown the server
2188 2014-04-10 19:03:26 <midnightmagic> michagogo|cloud: apparently not. have you seen all those people still in the #bitcoin* channels?
2189 2014-04-10 19:03:30 <midnightmagic> holy crap.
2190 2014-04-10 19:03:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'd be very surprised if a version still using IRC bootstrapping is able to sync
2191 2014-04-10 19:03:48 Kieraan` has joined
2192 2014-04-10 19:03:50 Kieraan` is now known as Guest22583
2193 2014-04-10 19:03:57 <BlueMatt> or solar, sorry
2194 2014-04-10 19:04:01 <midnightmagic> I thought it was still compatible?
2195 2014-04-10 19:04:04 shesek has joined
2196 2014-04-10 19:04:06 <midnightmagic> "compatible"
2197 2014-04-10 19:04:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well, the March 15 fork is non-deterministic IIRC
2198 2014-04-10 19:05:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Where are the channels?
2199 2014-04-10 19:05:18 lolstate_ has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
2200 2014-04-10 19:07:19 nsh has quit (Changing host)
2201 2014-04-10 19:07:19 nsh has joined
2202 2014-04-10 19:07:37 ryanxcharles has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
2203 2014-04-10 19:08:14 SrPx has joined
2204 2014-04-10 19:08:17 <BlueMatt> hmm, I cant connect to lfnet anymore
2205 2014-04-10 19:08:56 <SrPx> Hello, is there a way to create a system on top of bitcoin where users will deposit money in a wallet X, which nobody can control, then, after a few months, they will vote other wallets for that money to be distributed to?
2206 2014-04-10 19:09:04 austinhill has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2207 2014-04-10 19:09:18 <irungentoo_> SrPx, not really
2208 2014-04-10 19:09:31 <SrPx> irungentoo_: so, ... what do I have to do if I want this?
2209 2014-04-10 19:09:39 <midnightmagic> BlueMatt: I was just in there. :)
2210 2014-04-10 19:09:52 <BlueMatt> hmm, well some of the servers are down then, others must be working
2211 2014-04-10 19:09:58 austinhill has joined
2212 2014-04-10 19:10:17 <irungentoo_> SrPx, well something you trust would have to own the wallet
2213 2014-04-10 19:10:20 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
2214 2014-04-10 19:10:23 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2215 2014-04-10 19:10:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|{
2216 2014-04-10 19:10:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"addr" : "atlas.hacktopie.net",
2217 2014-04-10 19:10:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"services" : "00000001",
2218 2014-04-10 19:10:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"lastsend" : 1397156903,
2219 2014-04-10 19:10:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"lastrecv" : 1397156903,
2220 2014-04-10 19:10:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"bytessent" : 1008,
2221 2014-04-10 19:10:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"bytesrecv" : 26292,
2222 2014-04-10 19:10:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"conntime" : 1397156899,
2223 2014-04-10 19:10:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"pingtime" : 0.00000000,
2224 2014-04-10 19:10:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"version" : 32400,
2225 2014-04-10 19:10:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"subver" : "",
2226 2014-04-10 19:10:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"inbound" : false,
2227 2014-04-10 19:10:53 hearn has joined
2228 2014-04-10 19:10:56 <SrPx> irungentoo_: yea but that is the problem, if I set my service like that people will be afraid of me GOXing them... I would like to make it trustless, is that impossible?
2229 2014-04-10 19:10:58 <SrPx> ):
2230 2014-04-10 19:11:39 <irungentoo_> SrPx, You are trying to make a coin mixing service?
2231 2014-04-10 19:11:59 <BlueMatt> michagogo|cloud: some people run heavily, heavily modified nodes to sync with the current network
2232 2014-04-10 19:12:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BlueMatt: if you look, that node isn't synced
2233 2014-04-10 19:12:21 <SrPx> irungentoo_: hm not exactly?
2234 2014-04-10 19:12:23 ryanxcharles has joined
2235 2014-04-10 19:12:24 <BlueMatt> oops, well maybe I shouldve looked first :p
2236 2014-04-10 19:12:35 <SrPx> irungentoo_: (I don't know what coin mixing is)
2237 2014-04-10 19:12:53 <BlueMatt> michagogo|cloud: I havent seen anyone "run the latest version satoshi did" in a while, but Id assume thats one of them
2238 2014-04-10 19:13:12 xdotcommer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2239 2014-04-10 19:13:14 <BlueMatt> michagogo|cloud: probably just setup once and never updated and long-since forgotten
2240 2014-04-10 19:13:39 xdotcommer has joined
2241 2014-04-10 19:13:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Another non-synced node:
2242 2014-04-10 19:13:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/rgUhD6bZ
2243 2014-04-10 19:14:00 <irungentoo_> SrPx, there's no way of doing what you want in a decentralized manner
2244 2014-04-10 19:14:15 <irungentoo_> someone needs to own the private keys of the wallet
2245 2014-04-10 19:14:21 austinhill has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2246 2014-04-10 19:14:22 <hearn> sipa: ah ok
2247 2014-04-10 19:14:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Most of the nodes I'm trying from the IRC channels aren't connectable
2248 2014-04-10 19:14:41 <SrPx> irungentoo_: it could still be possible if I created another protocol, right?
2249 2014-04-10 19:14:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BlueMatt: there may also be the factor that Ubuntu Precise still ships 0.3.24
2250 2014-04-10 19:14:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And god knows who else
2251 2014-04-10 19:15:12 <irungentoo_> SrPx, maybe if you created another cryptocoin
2252 2014-04-10 19:16:36 ryanxcharles has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2253 2014-04-10 19:17:14 ryanxcharles has joined
2254 2014-04-10 19:17:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, odd node in #bitcoin08:
2255 2014-04-10 19:17:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/KfLlS9A8
2256 2014-04-10 19:18:02 <SrPx> irungentoo_: )=
2257 2014-04-10 19:18:08 <SrPx> irungentoo_: how difficult is that, today?
2258 2014-04-10 19:18:20 <SrPx> irungentoo_: we have so many, I guess that is not so complicated?
2259 2014-04-10 19:18:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Heh, one node in #bitcoin07, address tor-exit-readme.greenhost.nl
2260 2014-04-10 19:19:22 <irungentoo_> SrPx, most are just copies with the name and settings changed
2261 2014-04-10 19:19:39 <irungentoo_> what you want to do is much more difficult than that
2262 2014-04-10 19:19:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/O1efcDyM
2263 2014-04-10 19:20:12 Application has joined
2264 2014-04-10 19:20:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Looks like the most common version in the IRC channels is 3.24
2265 2014-04-10 19:21:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|in fact, it's the only one I saw besides that one weird one
2266 2014-04-10 19:21:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(I didn't look through all hundred channels, though)
2267 2014-04-10 19:21:17 <SrPx> irungentoo_: I see. Is there some kind of "minimal altcoin source code" I can clone, study and understand? As far as I know the beginning of bitcoin was just the first wallet. So all I need is the code of a minimal wallet, right?
2268 2014-04-10 19:21:32 Applicat_ has joined
2269 2014-04-10 19:22:11 <SrPx> I mean, the code of the wallet is what gives life to the system, right?
2270 2014-04-10 19:23:01 <sipa> SrPx: offtopic
2271 2014-04-10 19:23:28 <irungentoo_> SrPx, this seems to be a bit over your head
2272 2014-04-10 19:23:42 <SrPx> sipa why is this offtopic? I don't know the scope of this channel but sounds very bitcoin@ev related
2273 2014-04-10 19:23:50 <SrPx> irungentoo_: that is not my question
2274 2014-04-10 19:23:56 <irungentoo_> I would suggest reading how bitcoin works first
2275 2014-04-10 19:24:11 <irungentoo_> then you will appreciate the complexity of what you want to do
2276 2014-04-10 19:24:19 <sipa> SrPx: altcoins are offtopic here (there are too many requests from people who want to create their own currency, without first understanding how the current system works)
2277 2014-04-10 19:24:27 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2278 2014-04-10 19:24:42 <SrPx> irungentoo_: I prefer understanding a system by reading an well designed source code than reading random tutorials. that is why I'm asking that.
2279 2014-04-10 19:25:06 <sipa> so feel free to read the reference client's source code :)
2280 2014-04-10 19:25:07 <SrPx> sipa: I see, my bad, then.
2281 2014-04-10 19:25:23 <sipa> and if you have specific technical questions about it, they're welcome here
2282 2014-04-10 19:25:35 <sipa> but not "i just need a wallet, right?"
2283 2014-04-10 19:25:50 <irungentoo_> SrPx, well, the bitcoin source code is a bit ugly
2284 2014-04-10 19:26:02 <sd^^> SrPx: Start here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page
2285 2014-04-10 19:26:14 <irungentoo_> ^
2286 2014-04-10 19:26:24 <SrPx> sipa: you don't understand my question. I'm not asking if I just need a wallet, I'm asking if a wallet contains *every information about the system* so I can download the source code of a wallet *to learn about the system*
2287 2014-04-10 19:26:45 <SrPx> sipa: it is completely different from what you thought I asked.
2288 2014-04-10 19:26:46 <SrPx> but sorry anyway
2289 2014-04-10 19:27:08 <sipa> SrPx: it's exactly what i thought you meant; but that question belongs on #bitcoin :)
2290 2014-04-10 19:27:12 viajero has left ()
2291 2014-04-10 19:27:16 <SrPx> the opposite of an wallet containing every information about the system would be "an wallet is just a client, but we still need another kind of nodes/software for the system to live*
2292 2014-04-10 19:27:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Interesting
2293 2014-04-10 19:27:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I have a lot of connections
2294 2014-04-10 19:27:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|More than usual -- 46 inbound
2295 2014-04-10 19:27:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|15 tor and 31 ip
2296 2014-04-10 19:27:56 irungentoo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2297 2014-04-10 19:28:28 <rnicoll> sipa, I was actually just reading your document on BPP; is there any server-side reference software for this?
2298 2014-04-10 19:28:35 <sipa> BPP?
2299 2014-04-10 19:28:43 <rnicoll> Bitcoin payment protocol
2300 2014-04-10 19:28:49 <sipa> rnicoll: LOL
2301 2014-04-10 19:29:00 <sipa> rnicoll: my document is 2 years old :)
2302 2014-04-10 19:29:09 <sipa> and was a first proposal for a payment protocol
2303 2014-04-10 19:29:22 <sipa> it's current standardized, implemented and deployed
2304 2014-04-10 19:29:31 <sipa> in BIP 70-72
2305 2014-04-10 19:29:46 <rnicoll> ooh... have read 70, will get onto 71 & 72
2306 2014-04-10 19:29:48 viajero has joined
2307 2014-04-10 19:30:09 <rnicoll> question about there being a reference implementation for the server side remains, though?
2308 2014-04-10 19:30:19 <sipa> talk to gavin
2309 2014-04-10 19:30:26 <sipa> he has some demo php code for it
2310 2014-04-10 19:30:40 <sipa> there is no "nice" reference version though
2311 2014-04-10 19:30:52 <rnicoll> nah, it's fine, if there's nothing formal out there I'll knock something together to play with
2312 2014-04-10 19:30:55 <rnicoll> thanks!
2313 2014-04-10 19:31:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://bitcoincore.org/~gavin/createpaymentrequest.php
2314 2014-04-10 19:31:50 teward has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2315 2014-04-10 19:32:10 <rnicoll> michagogo|cloud, thanks!
2316 2014-04-10 19:32:23 joepie91 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2317 2014-04-10 19:33:03 icedp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2318 2014-04-10 19:33:23 neotap has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2319 2014-04-10 19:33:28 <hearn> rnicoll: we lack a reference implementation for merchant services entirely
2320 2014-04-10 19:33:36 <hearn> rnicoll: so there is unfortunately nowhere to put such a thing
2321 2014-04-10 19:33:47 <hearn> rnicoll: it’s a huge, gaping lack, which is one reason bitpay/coinbase are cleaning up
2322 2014-04-10 19:33:51 hellome has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2323 2014-04-10 19:33:55 <hearn> they have basically no open source competition right now
2324 2014-04-10 19:33:56 ryanxcharles has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
2325 2014-04-10 19:34:10 <rnicoll> hearn, I'll have to write some stuff anyway, will release it when I do
2326 2014-04-10 19:34:11 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2327 2014-04-10 19:34:14 <hearn> great
2328 2014-04-10 19:34:15 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2329 2014-04-10 19:34:25 <rnicoll> it won't be a lot, but at least it's a first step
2330 2014-04-10 19:34:43 joepie91 has joined
2331 2014-04-10 19:34:46 ryanxcharles has joined
2332 2014-04-10 19:34:48 neotap has joined
2333 2014-04-10 19:34:51 pierreat1ork has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2334 2014-04-10 19:34:51 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2335 2014-04-10 19:35:07 VossArtesian has joined
2336 2014-04-10 19:35:12 neotap is now known as Guest83797
2337 2014-04-10 19:35:30 VossArtesian has quit (Client Quit)
2338 2014-04-10 19:35:55 icedp has joined
2339 2014-04-10 19:36:11 SwampTony has joined
2340 2014-04-10 19:36:49 icedp has quit (Excess Flood)
2341 2014-04-10 19:37:59 icedp has joined
2342 2014-04-10 19:38:56 ryanxcharles has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2343 2014-04-10 19:39:29 ryanxcharles has joined
2344 2014-04-10 19:39:33 phantomspark has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2345 2014-04-10 19:40:15 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2346 2014-04-10 19:42:04 pierreat1ork has joined
2347 2014-04-10 19:42:04 pierreatwork has joined
2348 2014-04-10 19:44:36 <SrPx> sipa: so, pardon, let me start again, if I am an experienced programmer with mediocre knowledge about bitcoins, would https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page be the best place to learn about the protocol, wallets, mining and everything involved, to the point I would be able to create my own altcoin?
2349 2014-04-10 19:45:12 m1lkbag has joined
2350 2014-04-10 19:45:18 <m1lkbag> wtf
2351 2014-04-10 19:45:20 <sipa> i don't think you should even think about creating an altcoin before working a few years on bitcoin
2352 2014-04-10 19:45:43 benrcole has joined
2353 2014-04-10 19:45:45 <sipa> but regardless
2354 2014-04-10 19:46:21 * rnicoll would generally suggest that given the crazy number of altcoins right now, unless you've got some super-incredible idea, you're better waiting 6 months for things to quieten down
2355 2014-04-10 19:46:41 <sipa> i would indeed suggest reading the wiki, stackexchange, the new dev site (sec, searching link), maybe some posts on bitcointalk.org (but there's a lot of crap), following the mailing list, ...
2356 2014-04-10 19:46:42 tiago has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2357 2014-04-10 19:47:31 <sipa> altcoins are a place to experiment with ideas that are too radical for bitcoin to immediately adopt
2358 2014-04-10 19:47:31 nsh has joined
2359 2014-04-10 19:47:47 <sipa> but you really need experience with bitcoin itself (i think) to see where things can be improved
2360 2014-04-10 19:48:07 <sipa> (and just changing some hash function or constant without understand the impact really doesn't count as an interesting experiment)
2361 2014-04-10 19:48:36 <rnicoll> in particular, it's really important to understand why the various numbers (block time, difficulty retarget, mining rewards) are chosen, or you'll give yourself a huge headache later
2362 2014-04-10 19:48:59 <hearn> sipa: bitcoindev.us.to/en/developer-guide
2363 2014-04-10 19:49:04 <sipa> hearn: thanks
2364 2014-04-10 19:49:09 <sipa> SrPx: ^ that
2365 2014-04-10 19:50:14 Nunacoin has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
2366 2014-04-10 19:50:14 benrcole1 has joined
2367 2014-04-10 19:50:30 <SrPx> rnicoll: I don't like the idea of forking bitcoin, but what I want to do can't be implemented in bitcoin alone, according to someone here
2368 2014-04-10 19:50:41 ryanxcharles has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2369 2014-04-10 19:50:41 <sipa> SrPx: elaborate?
2370 2014-04-10 19:50:55 espringe has quit (Quit: espringe)
2371 2014-04-10 19:51:27 <rnicoll> there's also nothing wrong with forking a coin to play with and not release, for example. It's just once released, you're kinda stuck for the journey...
2372 2014-04-10 19:51:45 coingenuity has joined
2373 2014-04-10 19:52:01 davispuh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2374 2014-04-10 19:52:05 coingenuity is now known as Guest53702
2375 2014-04-10 19:52:47 tiago has joined
2376 2014-04-10 19:53:10 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2377 2014-04-10 19:53:41 davispuh has joined
2378 2014-04-10 19:53:52 <SrPx> sipa: http://lpaste.net/102542
2379 2014-04-10 19:54:52 <SrPx> sipa: also I understand it could take years, I don't have a problem with that, particularly. Thanks guys, I'll be reading bitcoindev.us.to/en/developer-guide for a while now
2380 2014-04-10 19:55:30 tombtc has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2381 2014-04-10 19:57:23 sd^^ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2382 2014-04-10 19:57:26 <maaku> SrPx: your idea is somewhat similar to a concept I've articulated called 'republicoin' - in my case, voting on the distirbution of the subsidy
2383 2014-04-10 19:57:43 <SrPx> maaku: interesting, tell me more?
2384 2014-04-10 19:58:06 <maaku> to be sybil resistant you'd have to have voting be proportional to bitcoin holdings (proof of stake), and there are various mechanisms for that
2385 2014-04-10 19:58:07 <rnicoll> SrPx, I think Ethereum's more in this direction, isn't it?
2386 2014-04-10 19:58:52 <SrPx> the sad thing about this is that I could implement this *product* in a few days, with only one caveat: I would have to control the private keys of my users and that would make my whole service "goxable". Honestly, I don't accept that.
2387 2014-04-10 19:59:08 viajero has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2388 2014-04-10 19:59:22 <maaku> but the outstanding problem is a lack of a jamming-free mechanism to distribute the finished ballots
2389 2014-04-10 19:59:31 <SrPx> rnicoll: Know too few about
2390 2014-04-10 19:59:54 <maaku> rnicoll: only in the sense that with an extended scripting language you can do anything
2391 2014-04-10 19:59:56 gues has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2392 2014-04-10 20:00:04 <maaku> SrPx: this is more of #bitcoin-wizards material
2393 2014-04-10 20:00:21 <rnicoll> maaku, yes, basically what I meant; it's the sort of cool in-the-blockchain stuff Ethereum wants to enabke
2394 2014-04-10 20:00:23 <rnicoll> enable
2395 2014-04-10 20:00:28 <SrPx> wow there are infinite #bitcoin channels on this network
2396 2014-04-10 20:00:36 gues has joined
2397 2014-04-10 20:00:59 <rnicoll> my god, it's full of #bitcoin channels :)
2398 2014-04-10 20:01:01 <rnicoll> back in 5
2399 2014-04-10 20:01:06 rnicoll has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2400 2014-04-10 20:01:21 <SrPx> So ethereum is turing-complete on the blockchain? Can my mind explode now? I'll be reading about it instead of bitcoindev.us.to/en/developer-guide now then, seems like it solves my problem
2401 2014-04-10 20:01:22 <SrPx> thanks guys
2402 2014-04-10 20:01:46 ryanxcharles has joined
2403 2014-04-10 20:01:53 <maaku> SrPx: I'd advise against
2404 2014-04-10 20:02:04 * SrPx suffers from an extraordinaire time-is-too-fast-for-all-I-want-to-learn problem
2405 2014-04-10 20:02:06 <SrPx> maaku: why?
2406 2014-04-10 20:02:29 <maaku> read bitcoindev.us.to/en/developer-guide ; there are many many issues with etherium project (not least of which it is vapourware), but it's way off-topic for #bitcoin-dev
2407 2014-04-10 20:02:58 cheetah2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2408 2014-04-10 20:04:29 <SrPx> maaku: okay, I'll start with bitcoin then. I just need to start reading something asap, time is passing, so there I go. Thanks
2409 2014-04-10 20:05:07 * SrPx maaku PMing because this is out of the scope of the chan, sorry. Would you kindly point me to an article explaining those flaws, if you still got it?
2410 2014-04-10 20:05:10 cheetah2 has joined
2411 2014-04-10 20:05:30 tombtc has joined
2412 2014-04-10 20:05:31 <SrPx> oh genius. I forgot this client is bugged with the /me command
2413 2014-04-10 20:05:39 Klumben has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2414 2014-04-10 20:05:59 benrcole1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2415 2014-04-10 20:10:55 m1lkbag has quit (Quit: leaving)
2416 2014-04-10 20:12:07 rnicoll has joined
2417 2014-04-10 20:12:55 Klumben has joined
2418 2014-04-10 20:17:57 Coincidental has joined
2419 2014-04-10 20:18:44 teward has joined
2420 2014-04-10 20:21:51 Guest53702 has quit (Changing host)
2421 2014-04-10 20:21:51 Guest53702 has joined
2422 2014-04-10 20:22:32 phantomspark has joined
2423 2014-04-10 20:22:40 draino has joined
2424 2014-04-10 20:24:18 hanncx has joined
2425 2014-04-10 20:24:54 beachandbytes has joined
2426 2014-04-10 20:25:51 hanncx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2427 2014-04-10 20:26:37 hanncx has joined
2428 2014-04-10 20:26:54 BCB has joined
2429 2014-04-10 20:28:37 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2430 2014-04-10 20:28:45 Guest53702 is now known as coingenuity
2431 2014-04-10 20:29:17 hanncx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2432 2014-04-10 20:29:38 hanncx has joined
2433 2014-04-10 20:31:33 hanncx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2434 2014-04-10 20:31:48 hanncx has joined
2435 2014-04-10 20:32:16 hanncx has quit (Client Quit)
2436 2014-04-10 20:32:47 hanncx has joined
2437 2014-04-10 20:33:16 hanncx has left ()
2438 2014-04-10 20:33:55 hanncx has joined
2439 2014-04-10 20:34:39 cheetah2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2440 2014-04-10 20:37:25 EmLeX has joined
2441 2014-04-10 20:38:43 hanncx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2442 2014-04-10 20:38:55 hanncx has joined
2443 2014-04-10 20:40:17 viajero has joined
2444 2014-04-10 20:47:17 hanti is now known as HANTI
2445 2014-04-10 20:48:10 espringe has joined
2446 2014-04-10 20:48:37 paveljanik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2447 2014-04-10 20:51:03 phoenix52 has joined
2448 2014-04-10 20:54:14 kdomanski has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2449 2014-04-10 20:54:28 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
2450 2014-04-10 20:55:36 wizkid057 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2451 2014-04-10 20:55:41 Pullphinger has quit ()
2452 2014-04-10 20:58:55 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2453 2014-04-10 20:59:26 pierreat1ork has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2454 2014-04-10 20:59:26 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2455 2014-04-10 20:59:56 mrkent has joined
2456 2014-04-10 21:00:55 wizkid057 has joined
2457 2014-04-10 21:03:19 <jcorgan> is there a good summary of what changes to the bitcoin protocol would be needed to support 2-way pegging?
2458 2014-04-10 21:03:55 benrcole has joined
2459 2014-04-10 21:04:13 <rnicoll> 2-way pegging?
2460 2014-04-10 21:04:28 Apexseals has joined
2461 2014-04-10 21:04:35 <rnicoll> http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/32108143/ for anyone slower than me at Google :)
2462 2014-04-10 21:04:49 <maaku> jcorgan: validation of compact spv proofs (and the soft-fork which add the capability to have compact spv proofs)
2463 2014-04-10 21:04:56 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2464 2014-04-10 21:05:00 <maaku> and some minimal covenant-like opcode
2465 2014-04-10 21:05:16 <maaku> of course preferably this would be done with an expanded script which doesn't require specialized opcodes
2466 2014-04-10 21:05:25 johnsoft has joined
2467 2014-04-10 21:06:18 <jcorgan> ah, ok.  i'll go do some googling on that.  i've been on the road for a few weeks and have missed out on all the discussions.
2468 2014-04-10 21:07:28 HaltingState has joined
2469 2014-04-10 21:07:28 HaltingState has quit (Changing host)
2470 2014-04-10 21:07:28 HaltingState has joined
2471 2014-04-10 21:07:36 karc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2472 2014-04-10 21:08:07 karc has joined
2473 2014-04-10 21:09:21 eristisk has joined
2474 2014-04-10 21:09:53 Tiraspol has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2475 2014-04-10 21:10:22 <rnicoll> is there any end to the things I need to read? :)
2476 2014-04-10 21:11:00 <jcorgan> rnicoll: that email was very informative, thanks
2477 2014-04-10 21:11:23 * rnicoll continues his quest to read all the things :)
2478 2014-04-10 21:12:39 Tiraspol has joined
2479 2014-04-10 21:12:39 Tiraspol has quit (Changing host)
2480 2014-04-10 21:12:39 Tiraspol has joined
2481 2014-04-10 21:12:51 Eagle[TM] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2482 2014-04-10 21:13:49 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2483 2014-04-10 21:14:43 <jcorgan> maaku: the computation needed to verify the proofs is something that could be done in bitcoin script (with suitable enabling of opcodes)?  this would be preferrable to a single opcode like OP_CHECKSIG that does all the computation in C++? (hope i understood your comment correctly)
2484 2014-04-10 21:15:45 <maaku> jcorgan: yes, although it's more likely that script would get a complete rewrite into something smaller but more expressive
2485 2014-04-10 21:16:10 Zifre has joined
2486 2014-04-10 21:16:12 <maaku> the actual validation is not that complex, you are just checking pow headers + merkle trees
2487 2014-04-10 21:17:19 <maaku> obviously a C++ implementation would be faster, but I think it would be more favorable to have an expressive scripting language (capable of so much more) than a ad-hoc suite of specialized opcodes
2488 2014-04-10 21:17:22 * jcorgan suspects that a feature request that requires a complete rewrite of script is dead in the water :)
2489 2014-04-10 21:17:37 <maaku> jcorgan: not really, it'd be a soft-fork change
2490 2014-04-10 21:17:53 <maaku> and pretty much take all the ammunition out of etherium-like forks
2491 2014-04-10 21:18:14 <maaku> "one change to rule them all" and all that
2492 2014-04-10 21:19:08 <jcorgan> i would separate "minimum changes needed to support 2-way pegging" from "changes needed to add expressive scripting"
2493 2014-04-10 21:19:26 YoY_ has joined
2494 2014-04-10 21:19:36 <jcorgan> but i do see your motivation
2495 2014-04-10 21:19:51 <maaku> jcorgan: the point is that expressive scripting might be a *smaller* change than a specialized 2-way pegging opcode
2496 2014-04-10 21:20:04 <maaku> although I recognize that may seem counter-intuitive
2497 2014-04-10 21:20:09 <jcorgan> sure
2498 2014-04-10 21:20:20 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2499 2014-04-10 21:20:24 Zarutian has joined
2500 2014-04-10 21:20:42 <jcorgan> i guess we'll only know when we see the pull requests :)
2501 2014-04-10 21:20:54 johnsoft has joined
2502 2014-04-10 21:21:59 _yoy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2503 2014-04-10 21:22:06 <jcorgan> thanks for help, i have a lot of reading to queue up for my flight home
2504 2014-04-10 21:22:23 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2505 2014-04-10 21:22:23 <maaku> np
2506 2014-04-10 21:22:35 nsh has joined
2507 2014-04-10 21:22:51 espringe has quit (Quit: espringe)
2508 2014-04-10 21:24:05 llllllllll has joined
2509 2014-04-10 21:26:06 _yoy_ has joined
2510 2014-04-10 21:26:12 jokosh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2511 2014-04-10 21:26:51 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2512 2014-04-10 21:27:38 c0rw has joined
2513 2014-04-10 21:27:48 YoY_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2514 2014-04-10 21:28:04 johnsoft has joined
2515 2014-04-10 21:30:51 johnsoft has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2516 2014-04-10 21:31:42 rnvk has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2517 2014-04-10 21:35:09 zcopley has joined
2518 2014-04-10 21:35:42 cheetah2 has joined
2519 2014-04-10 21:35:58 Lao_Ban_ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2520 2014-04-10 21:40:05 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2521 2014-04-10 21:40:12 phrackage has joined
2522 2014-04-10 21:40:16 johnsoft has joined
2523 2014-04-10 21:41:14 tucenaber has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2524 2014-04-10 21:41:55 tucenaber has joined
2525 2014-04-10 21:41:55 tucenaber has quit (Changing host)
2526 2014-04-10 21:41:55 tucenaber has joined
2527 2014-04-10 21:44:21 phrackage has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2528 2014-04-10 21:47:59 soulblade738_ is now known as soulblade738
2529 2014-04-10 21:49:59 xtor has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2530 2014-04-10 21:51:59 benrcole has joined
2531 2014-04-10 21:53:31 c0rw is now known as away!~c0rw1n@232.99-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be|c0rw1n
2532 2014-04-10 21:54:18 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2533 2014-04-10 21:54:53 jakov has joined
2534 2014-04-10 21:54:53 jakov has quit (Changing host)
2535 2014-04-10 21:54:53 jakov has joined
2536 2014-04-10 21:56:32 mbelshe has joined
2537 2014-04-10 21:56:34 nsh has joined
2538 2014-04-10 21:58:58 <mbelshe> anyone know what happened to testnet3 yesterday?  looks like there was a massive chain re-org
2539 2014-04-10 21:59:20 Grouver has quit (Quit:  I love my HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-)
2540 2014-04-10 22:02:29 hearn has quit (Quit: hearn)
2541 2014-04-10 22:04:38 waxwing has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2542 2014-04-10 22:04:39 nickler has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2543 2014-04-10 22:05:11 waxwing has joined
2544 2014-04-10 22:05:29 Lexa has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2545 2014-04-10 22:06:19 execute_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2546 2014-04-10 22:06:45 eristisk has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2547 2014-04-10 22:07:00 msvb-lab has quit (Quit: msvb-lab)
2548 2014-04-10 22:07:19 hoffmabc has joined
2549 2014-04-10 22:07:20 roasbeef has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2550 2014-04-10 22:07:24 Subo1977_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2551 2014-04-10 22:07:24 t3st3r has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2552 2014-04-10 22:07:31 Subo1977 has joined
2553 2014-04-10 22:07:40 wangbus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2554 2014-04-10 22:08:08 execute_ has joined
2555 2014-04-10 22:08:19 roasbeef has joined
2556 2014-04-10 22:08:28 wangbus has joined
2557 2014-04-10 22:08:53 t3st3r has joined
2558 2014-04-10 22:09:10 Lexa has joined
2559 2014-04-10 22:12:12 draradech has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2560 2014-04-10 22:12:52 Applicat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2561 2014-04-10 22:17:17 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2562 2014-04-10 22:17:24 denisx has joined
2563 2014-04-10 22:18:14 hoffmabc has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
2564 2014-04-10 22:18:40 cagedwisdom has joined
2565 2014-04-10 22:20:57 Cryo has joined
2566 2014-04-10 22:20:57 Cryo has quit (Changing host)
2567 2014-04-10 22:20:57 Cryo has joined
2568 2014-04-10 22:23:16 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2569 2014-04-10 22:23:25 espringe has joined
2570 2014-04-10 22:24:24 hoffmabc has joined
2571 2014-04-10 22:25:29 gingpark has joined
2572 2014-04-10 22:25:43 jokosh has joined
2573 2014-04-10 22:25:47 dims has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2574 2014-04-10 22:29:39 hoffmabc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2575 2014-04-10 22:29:45 Starduster has quit (Quit: gotta go)
2576 2014-04-10 22:33:32 viajero has quit (Quit: viajero)
2577 2014-04-10 22:34:27 hoffmabc has joined
2578 2014-04-10 22:35:05 Lao_Ban_ has joined
2579 2014-04-10 22:36:02 phoenix52 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2580 2014-04-10 22:37:41 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2581 2014-04-10 22:42:05 Application has joined
2582 2014-04-10 22:42:27 bkbk has joined
2583 2014-04-10 22:43:07 cheetah2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2584 2014-04-10 22:43:12 hoffmabc has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2585 2014-04-10 22:45:40 brson has joined
2586 2014-04-10 22:48:06 hmmma has joined
2587 2014-04-10 22:48:53 forex has joined
2588 2014-04-10 22:48:56 <forex> hello
2589 2014-04-10 22:49:11 <forex> bitcoin have upgraded to new ssl? :D
2590 2014-04-10 22:49:22 <denisx> forex: yes, with 0.9.1
2591 2014-04-10 22:49:30 <forex> I wonder whats the impact of that ssl bug on crypto
2592 2014-04-10 22:49:55 <maaku> forex: complete and total ownage
2593 2014-04-10 22:50:07 cheetah2 has joined
2594 2014-04-10 22:50:09 <denisx> gmaxwell said that the private keys are safe, but maybe the password of your wallet could be exposed in the worst case
2595 2014-04-10 22:50:29 <forex> maaku:  what do you mean?
2596 2014-04-10 22:50:37 <denisx> he is trolling ;)
2597 2014-04-10 22:50:59 <forex> yes I know I wanted to bring his trolliness into brighter spotlight :D
2598 2014-04-10 22:51:50 <forex> denisx: yes private keys would be safe imo
2599 2014-04-10 22:51:56 <forex> wallet password depends
2600 2014-04-10 22:52:00 <maaku> forex: you're question was too generic and off-topic. the impact of heartbleed is massive and cannot be understated
2601 2014-04-10 22:52:05 <maaku> but pretty much doesn't affect bitcoin
2602 2014-04-10 22:52:17 <forex> anyone here tried to hack its own wallet passwd?
2603 2014-04-10 22:52:21 <sipa> forex: yes
2604 2014-04-10 22:52:29 <sipa> gmaxwell did, and failed iirc
2605 2014-04-10 22:52:48 <forex> hehe clever satoshi code
2606 2014-04-10 22:52:57 <sipa> has little to do with that
2607 2014-04-10 22:53:26 <sipa> actually, wait, he was able to get the last rpc command issued iirc
2608 2014-04-10 22:53:45 <forex> hehe
2609 2014-04-10 22:53:55 <forex> that may or may not be the password
2610 2014-04-10 22:54:29 <rnicoll> eh, in C++ where you should have perfect control over memory, it's good practice to erase secure memory before releasing it, which helps in this sort of scenario
2611 2014-04-10 22:54:30 <gmaxwell> denisx: or a private key you just imported.
2612 2014-04-10 22:54:58 <sipa> rnicoll: which we do, actually :)
2613 2014-04-10 22:55:00 <forex> gmaxwell: so if its last command like importprivekey
2614 2014-04-10 22:55:05 <sipa> rnicoll: to some extent
2615 2014-04-10 22:55:06 <forex> it would be readed?
2616 2014-04-10 22:55:44 <maaku> rnicoll: not really. heartbleed gives you unfettered access to 64k of memory. could be still allocated stuff in that memory
2617 2014-04-10 22:55:57 <forex> like for example I doubt anyone hacked my password itssofunnynow :D
2618 2014-04-10 22:56:16 <gmaxwell> forex: if you had rpcssl enabled, which almost no one does; and had rpc exposed to a hostile network, which no one should.
2619 2014-04-10 22:56:19 <sipa> forex: bitcoin by default does not expose any SSL interface
2620 2014-04-10 22:56:47 <rnicoll> sipa, cool! I tried to do it in Java, and went insane when I realised how little I knew what was actually happening...
2621 2014-04-10 22:56:58 <forex> sipa so if its cool why update? just  in case? :)
2622 2014-04-10 22:57:03 <gmaxwell> FWIW, I'm in favor of removing RPCSSL and including a nice set of instructions to use stunnel.
2623 2014-04-10 22:57:10 <sipa> forex: because some people DO use that SSL feature
2624 2014-04-10 22:57:25 <sipa> forex: and in the GUI, if you use the payment protocol, you also use SSL
2625 2014-04-10 22:57:55 <forex> by payment protocol u mean coin control or what?
2626 2014-04-10 22:57:59 <sipa> no
2627 2014-04-10 22:58:18 <sipa> by payment protocol, i mean payment protocol (see BIP 70-72)
2628 2014-04-10 22:58:29 <forex> ok going to check
2629 2014-04-10 22:58:33 draradech has joined
2630 2014-04-10 22:58:43 <sipa> i guess it could be called "pay to url"
2631 2014-04-10 22:58:58 pierreat1ork has joined
2632 2014-04-10 22:58:58 pierreatwork has joined
2633 2014-04-10 22:59:02 <sipa> (but nobody does)
2634 2014-04-10 22:59:21 go1111111 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2635 2014-04-10 23:00:08 <forex> Human-readable, secure payment destinations-- customers will be asked to authorize payment to "website.com" instead of an inscrutable, 34-character bitcoin address.
2636 2014-04-10 23:00:11 <forex> nice
2637 2014-04-10 23:00:46 dims has joined
2638 2014-04-10 23:01:00 * rnicoll is probably going to be trying to build a basic implementation tomorrow to release as open source
2639 2014-04-10 23:01:14 <forex> :)
2640 2014-04-10 23:01:22 bkbk has quit ()
2641 2014-04-10 23:06:50 wumpus has quit (No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2642 2014-04-10 23:07:29 wump has joined
2643 2014-04-10 23:07:29 wumpus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2644 2014-04-10 23:07:39 maaku has joined
2645 2014-04-10 23:08:03 maaku is now known as Guest9917
2646 2014-04-10 23:08:10 hoffmabc has joined
2647 2014-04-10 23:08:34 Guest9917 has left ()
2648 2014-04-10 23:08:45 nsh has quit (Changing host)
2649 2014-04-10 23:08:46 nsh has joined
2650 2014-04-10 23:08:49 eristisk has joined
2651 2014-04-10 23:09:03 maaku has joined
2652 2014-04-10 23:09:28 DougieBot5000 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2653 2014-04-10 23:09:59 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
2654 2014-04-10 23:10:22 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2655 2014-04-10 23:10:34 wallet42 has joined
2656 2014-04-10 23:12:16 rdymac has joined
2657 2014-04-10 23:12:43 agricocb has joined
2658 2014-04-10 23:12:46 agricocb has quit (Client Quit)
2659 2014-04-10 23:12:52 grau has joined
2660 2014-04-10 23:14:15 pecket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2661 2014-04-10 23:14:15 agricocb has joined
2662 2014-04-10 23:16:23 pierreat1ork has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2663 2014-04-10 23:16:23 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2664 2014-04-10 23:17:16 forex has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2665 2014-04-10 23:17:41 Lexa has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2666 2014-04-10 23:18:29 hoffmabc has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
2667 2014-04-10 23:18:37 wallet42 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2668 2014-04-10 23:20:06 RedEmerald has quit (Changing host)
2669 2014-04-10 23:20:06 RedEmerald has joined
2670 2014-04-10 23:20:16 Lexa has joined
2671 2014-04-10 23:21:44 gimmezeit has joined
2672 2014-04-10 23:22:45 ryanxcharles has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2673 2014-04-10 23:23:10 gimmetime has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2674 2014-04-10 23:23:30 ryanxcha_ has joined
2675 2014-04-10 23:24:16 JackH has quit (Quit: JackH)
2676 2014-04-10 23:24:26 ryanxcha_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2677 2014-04-10 23:30:03 tiago has quit (Changing host)
2678 2014-04-10 23:30:03 tiago has joined
2679 2014-04-10 23:33:51 zcopley has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2680 2014-04-10 23:38:07 blitzlightnin has joined
2681 2014-04-10 23:38:07 ahmed_ is now known as ahmed_afk
2682 2014-04-10 23:38:40 JZavala has joined
2683 2014-04-10 23:38:49 SwampTony has joined
2684 2014-04-10 23:38:57 bbbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2685 2014-04-10 23:42:08 viajero has joined
2686 2014-04-10 23:42:35 pierreatwork has joined
2687 2014-04-10 23:42:41 tombtc has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2688 2014-04-10 23:42:50 mr_burdell has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2689 2014-04-10 23:42:59 pierreat1ork has joined
2690 2014-04-10 23:43:24 davispuhh has joined
2691 2014-04-10 23:43:26 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2692 2014-04-10 23:43:52 davispuh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2693 2014-04-10 23:45:00 benrcole has joined
2694 2014-04-10 23:45:36 Lao_Ban_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2695 2014-04-10 23:45:45 Lao_Ban_ has joined
2696 2014-04-10 23:45:50 twobitcoins_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2697 2014-04-10 23:46:08 twobitcoins has joined
2698 2014-04-10 23:46:23 rnicoll has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2699 2014-04-10 23:47:54 Guyver2 has quit (Quit: :))
2700 2014-04-10 23:48:54 phrackage has joined
2701 2014-04-10 23:49:03 topynate has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2702 2014-04-10 23:49:15 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2703 2014-04-10 23:49:56 hanncx has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2704 2014-04-10 23:51:30 austinhill has joined
2705 2014-04-10 23:51:43 austinhill has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2706 2014-04-10 23:51:56 austinhill has joined
2707 2014-04-10 23:53:03 hanncx has joined
2708 2014-04-10 23:54:22 rdbell has quit (Quit: rdbell)