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39 2014-04-11 00:44:37 <hello> hello
40 2014-04-11 00:45:00 <hello> forks cause by orphans is what people call reorgs?
41 2014-04-11 00:46:17 <sipa> a fork is just a block with two child blocks
42 2014-04-11 00:46:31 <sipa> a reorganization is switching from one side of a fork to another
43 2014-04-11 00:47:04 <sipa> the result of that reorganization is that the old chain becomes 'orphaned' (because its generation transactions lose the parent they originated in)
44 2014-04-11 00:47:23 <hello> sipa so normally fork can only last till next block right? as nodes will rejoin longest chain each block :)
45 2014-04-11 00:47:37 <sipa> reorgs can be arbitrarily deep
46 2014-04-11 00:47:51 <sipa> transactions from the old chain are reinserted in the new one
47 2014-04-11 00:47:57 <sipa> but the chains are not 'merged'
48 2014-04-11 00:48:23 <sipa> the chances go down very rapidly, though
49 2014-04-11 00:48:38 <sipa> i don't think more than 2-3 blocks deep has occurred except in the case of bugs
50 2014-04-11 00:48:43 <sipa> maybe 4
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52 2014-04-11 00:49:50 <hello> sipa so say 51% of chain accepts solution and 49% not, then on next update both chains try to build on top of that
53 2014-04-11 00:49:52 <hello> hehe
54 2014-04-11 00:50:09 <sipa> what if both chains get a successor block at the same time?
55 2014-04-11 00:50:18 <sipa> (that's how a 2-deep fork occurs)
56 2014-04-11 00:51:32 <hello> sipa: yes I see two chains got block same time - then chain with larger hashpower likely to build next block faster
57 2014-04-11 00:51:41 <hello> so eventually some blocks are oprhaned
58 2014-04-11 00:51:47 <hello> and its normal again
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61 2014-04-11 00:54:39 <blitzlightnin> I read a paper .. anyone here knows the sidechain idea
62 2014-04-11 00:55:05 <blitzlightnin> http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/adam-back-sidechains-can-replace-altcoins-bitcoin-2-0-platforms/2014/04/10
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129 2014-04-11 01:53:42 <__ns__> Hey anybody got acouple testnet BTC? I am working on an application.
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131 2014-04-11 01:54:47 <__ns__> Leave hobo change here: mhRL6jiMwM36831mcgo1B1Q1vrCsAiGgcT
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142 2014-04-11 02:02:44 <hello> blitzlightnin: looks like bs :D
143 2014-04-11 02:04:04 <BCB> hello there is an investor involved.
144 2014-04-11 02:04:57 <hello> yes twitter also got plenty of investors
145 2014-04-11 02:04:58 <hello> :))
146 2014-04-11 02:05:11 <hello> but they can `sell` users data
147 2014-04-11 02:05:26 <BCB> if you are not buying a product you are the product
148 2014-04-11 02:09:06 <hello> sounds about as logical as the aforementioned bs product :D
149 2014-04-11 02:09:07 <hello> lol
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151 2014-04-11 02:11:51 <PRab> What are peoples thoughts on UTXO commitments? I enjoyed the discussion on the mailing list, but whats the chances of it actually getting implemented.
152 2014-04-11 02:12:35 <PRab> If someone writes the code would it get merged, or would it get rejected from bitcoin core because it is a weaker security model?
153 2014-04-11 02:12:57 <PRab> I guess there is always the 3rd option of it being included as an option.
154 2014-04-11 02:12:57 <gmaxwell> I think you misunderstood the mailing list.
155 2014-04-11 02:13:25 OneMiner has quit (Quit: Leaving)
156 2014-04-11 02:13:58 <gmaxwell> Its useful to have more authenticated data. The question about including it isn't the weaker security model, it's the concern of adding another normative data structure to full nodes that takes space and cpu to maintain and what its costs are.
157 2014-04-11 02:14:02 <PRab> Oh? I saw the replies to my post and completely understand the additional weakness now.
158 2014-04-11 02:14:15 <gmaxwell> Actually using it in Bitcoin Core is completely off the table.
159 2014-04-11 02:14:26 <gmaxwell> (at least while acting as a full node!)
160 2014-04-11 02:14:48 <PRab> Ok, so that was my question.
161 2014-04-11 02:14:52 <gmaxwell> But as a fast bootstrap mechenism and tool to make litenodes and other external systems more secure, sure.
162 2014-04-11 02:15:38 alecalve has joined
163 2014-04-11 02:15:41 <PRab> As an end user, I have never liked the hard split between being a full node and a lite node.
164 2014-04-11 02:15:57 <PRab> Full nodes help the network while lite nodes are a burden.
165 2014-04-11 02:16:05 roconnor__ has joined
166 2014-04-11 02:16:15 <PRab> I want to be somewhere in the middle and just carry my own weight, but no more.
167 2014-04-11 02:16:24 roconnor_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
168 2014-04-11 02:16:30 <PRab> UTXO commitments seemed like a good way to get there.
169 2014-04-11 02:16:38 <gmaxwell> PRab: well it's possible to do that too without any commitments at all.
170 2014-04-11 02:17:15 <PRab> I guess in reality is still cheap enough to run a full node that I actually run 2 on one box.
171 2014-04-11 02:17:22 <PRab> gmaxwell: How so?
172 2014-04-11 02:17:27 <gmaxwell> PRab: there is no need on a full node to _store_ more than the utxo and enough blocks to handle reorgs...
173 2014-04-11 02:18:13 <gmaxwell> in bitcoin core we never access the block data except during reorgs (and then only recent blocks), peers pulling the historic chains from us, and in response to user requested rpcs or rescans.
174 2014-04-11 02:18:19 <PRab> I saw that, but then you still have all of the startup cost. (Bandwidth + disk IO)
175 2014-04-11 02:18:35 <gmaxwell> PRab: sure, but that could be spread out over months in the background.. it's a one time thing.
176 2014-04-11 02:18:51 OneMiner has joined
177 2014-04-11 02:19:15 <PRab> Agreed, but for myself, my system was almost unusable for almost 2 days while I was catching up.
178 2014-04-11 02:19:34 cadaver has joined
179 2014-04-11 02:19:39 <PRab> (I think my HD doesn't like leveldb)
180 2014-04-11 02:19:47 <hello> lol
181 2014-04-11 02:19:58 phrackage has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
182 2014-04-11 02:20:32 <PRab> If I could start at a UTXO commitment, then sever blocks from that point on, I believe that would be an easier pill to swallow.
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184 2014-04-11 02:21:23 <gmaxwell> PRab: It would be interesting to know whyâ but I think I answered that point. If the concern there is that the high usage is making your system unusable the answer is to just do the process slowly in the backround with very low idle priority, spreading it out so its unnoticable to you and stays out of your way.
185 2014-04-11 02:21:53 <gmaxwell> and doing that doesn't require a reduction in the security model or additional complexity to think about incentives.
186 2014-04-11 02:22:17 <PRab> Using both btcd and bitcoin-qt, I use process explorer to set the process priority and IO priority to "background". That made it much more bearable.
187 2014-04-11 02:22:44 <PRab> The only problem with that was that I needed to wait even longer to get Armory (my end goal) up and running.
188 2014-04-11 02:23:49 <gmaxwell> PRab: is this on windows?
189 2014-04-11 02:24:11 OneFixt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
190 2014-04-11 02:24:31 <PRab> I ensured that they weren't thrashing the disk or fighting over IO by putting their data dir's on separate HDs.
191 2014-04-11 02:24:36 <PRab> Yep, windows.
192 2014-04-11 02:24:44 <PRab> Windows 7 64bit.
193 2014-04-11 02:24:55 <gmaxwell> it's odd though, bitcoin core does relatively little IO
194 2014-04-11 02:25:04 <gmaxwell> validation is all out of memory during the syncup.
195 2014-04-11 02:25:29 <PRab> nope, it does a painful lot of IO, especially during startup.
196 2014-04-11 02:25:44 <hello> buy SSD :D
197 2014-04-11 02:25:54 <codice> I'm kinda curious as to what kind of system you have
198 2014-04-11 02:25:57 <PRab> hello: One of the 2 disks was an SSD.
199 2014-04-11 02:26:02 <gmaxwell> during the process startup? yes it does a database integrity check that rolls back the last 100 blocks and reapplies them, this results in reading a fair bit and heating up the caches.
200 2014-04-11 02:26:23 <gmaxwell> though its completely unnoticable on my laptop, other than the disk light is on for 4 seconds or so.
201 2014-04-11 02:26:33 <gmaxwell> (but ... linux not windows)
202 2014-04-11 02:26:40 <hello> yes windows qt is very light
203 2014-04-11 02:26:51 <hello> and I use older laptop
204 2014-04-11 02:27:03 <PRab> gmaxwell: I would have to run a trace, but the splash screen stays up for ~5 minutes and my system is significantly less responsive while that is happening.
205 2014-04-11 02:27:04 phrackage has joined
206 2014-04-11 02:27:10 <gmaxwell> PRab: you're not the only person I've seen report this, so I don't disbelieve you. But it would be interesting to find out why expirences differ.
207 2014-04-11 02:27:12 <hello> 5 min LOL
208 2014-04-11 02:27:13 <hello> :))
209 2014-04-11 02:27:17 <gmaxwell> 5 minutes?! wtf.
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211 2014-04-11 02:27:19 <codice> I think there may be other issues
212 2014-04-11 02:27:34 <gmaxwell> what version of bitcoin is this?
213 2014-04-11 02:27:35 <hello> well if u use 386 cpu :P
214 2014-04-11 02:27:36 <gmaxwell> what hardware?
215 2014-04-11 02:27:43 <hello> but it does not run on win 7 lol
216 2014-04-11 02:27:44 <codice> I run armory on win7 x64 and it never takes more than maybe a minute to sync up
217 2014-04-11 02:27:44 <PRab> Yep, I agree. I told you my system doesn't like leveldb.
218 2014-04-11 02:28:00 <hello> PRab: u system is %%%%
219 2014-04-11 02:28:01 <hello> :)
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221 2014-04-11 02:28:18 <PRab> Core I5, 4GB memory, 1TB HD, 128 GB SSD.
222 2014-04-11 02:28:39 <codice> you need more memory
223 2014-04-11 02:28:50 <gmaxwell> The entire startup on my laptop, cold cache is to fully running is apparently 18 seconds.
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225 2014-04-11 02:28:58 <PRab> I have the same problem with btcd, the devs tried to hunt it down, but never came up with anything conclusive.
226 2014-04-11 02:29:00 <gmaxwell> shouldn't need more memory unless he's out.
227 2014-04-11 02:29:05 <PRab> gmaxwell: how much memory?
228 2014-04-11 02:29:06 igrigorik___ is now known as igrigorik
229 2014-04-11 02:29:28 <codice> I don't think he needs it for armory/btc-qt or whatever, but he may need it for everything else
230 2014-04-11 02:29:35 <gmaxwell> 8gb, but it shouldn't matter... the whole process is using 200mb at that point and the caches are cold.
231 2014-04-11 02:29:38 <PRab> Current Memory Commit = %49.83
232 2014-04-11 02:29:51 <codice> even sync'ing the entire block chain on my ultrabook took only about 9 hours
233 2014-04-11 02:29:54 <hello> perhaps u running a virus :D
234 2014-04-11 02:29:57 <PRab> bitcoin-qt is currently taking 439MB memory.
235 2014-04-11 02:29:57 <gmaxwell> PRab: maybe some issue with your SATA controller. Might be interesting to run some IO benchmarks.
236 2014-04-11 02:30:02 <codice> rather than the 2 days some folks mention
237 2014-04-11 02:30:09 <gmaxwell> hello: or anti-virus.
238 2014-04-11 02:30:14 <hello> also that
239 2014-04-11 02:30:21 <codice> also check your SSD firmware, if you can
240 2014-04-11 02:30:33 <PRab> Trust me, I'm clean for viruses.
241 2014-04-11 02:30:40 OneFixt has joined
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243 2014-04-11 02:30:41 <PRab> SSD is fast, HD is slow.
244 2014-04-11 02:30:42 roconnor has joined
245 2014-04-11 02:30:43 <gmaxwell> but yea, thats busted and thats a local issue, though if there is some change we could make to not trigger it I'd love to know.
246 2014-04-11 02:30:44 <codice> some older sandforce and intel chipsets had interesting bugs
247 2014-04-11 02:30:57 <gmaxwell> PRab: but are you clean of anti-viruses?
248 2014-04-11 02:30:58 <PRab> They are on the same sata controller, so I think the controller firmware/driver is ok.
249 2014-04-11 02:31:18 <PRab> gmaxwell: They only one I have is the built in windows defender.
250 2014-04-11 02:31:21 hello has quit (Quit: Page closed)
251 2014-04-11 02:31:29 <gmaxwell> PRab: I suggest benchmarking startup with that disabled.
252 2014-04-11 02:31:34 <PRab> (The one that comes pre-installed)
253 2014-04-11 02:31:41 <PRab> Will do.
254 2014-04-11 02:32:05 <gmaxwell> but yea, interesting. Maybe we should publish benchmarks of bitcoin core so people know better whats expected.
255 2014-04-11 02:32:19 <gmaxwell> 5 minutes. Man. I'm sorry for you, that stinks. :)
256 2014-04-11 02:32:21 <PRab> Ok, Windows defender off. Restarting bitcoin-qt now.
257 2014-04-11 02:32:44 <PRab> Ok, qt is dead.
258 2014-04-11 02:33:08 <PRab> Splashscreen up.
259 2014-04-11 02:33:09 <gmaxwell> I wonder how many of these acrimonious performance discussions are with people who its running 20x slower for than it runs for me. :)
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261 2014-04-11 02:33:33 <PRab> Verifying blocks...
262 2014-04-11 02:34:10 <PRab> IO Delta average = ~700
263 2014-04-11 02:34:28 <PRab> (according to Process Explorer
264 2014-04-11 02:34:50 <gmaxwell> still? :-/
265 2014-04-11 02:34:59 <PRab> Still Verifying Blocks...
266 2014-04-11 02:35:42 mxisaac has quit ()
267 2014-04-11 02:35:54 <PRab> IO Delta still very high (~1000)
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270 2014-04-11 02:36:43 * PRab whistles quietly and waits.
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272 2014-04-11 02:37:03 <PRab> IO Delta up to 2000
273 2014-04-11 02:37:08 mr_burdell has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
274 2014-04-11 02:37:26 <gmaxwell> okay, so much for the AV theory.
275 2014-04-11 02:37:52 <codice> prab: do you have a column in PE called "I/O Delta Total Bytes"?
276 2014-04-11 02:37:58 <PRab> DONE!
277 2014-04-11 02:38:05 roidster has joined
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279 2014-04-11 02:39:12 <PRab> I do now. ~100KB, but bouncing around.
280 2014-04-11 02:39:14 Eiii has joined
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282 2014-04-11 02:39:33 <PRab> Like I said, ~5 minutes looking at the IRC Log.
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284 2014-04-11 02:40:16 <codice> ok, click on the top of the column header to sort it until the bigger ones are at the top
285 2014-04-11 02:40:23 mr_burdell_japan has joined
286 2014-04-11 02:40:34 <codice> repeat the process, then see what's doing the most I/O a
287 2014-04-11 02:40:49 <gmaxwell> and this is on the SSD?
288 2014-04-11 02:40:52 rnvk has quit (Quit: ##### Leaving... | SIGN-UP for Coinkite.com #####)
289 2014-04-11 02:41:03 <PRab> bitcoin-qt has quieted down.
290 2014-04-11 02:41:09 <PRab> gmaxwell: No, HD.
291 2014-04-11 02:41:11 sbrossie has joined
292 2014-04-11 02:41:23 <PRab> btcd is on the SSD, bitcoin-qt is on the HD.
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295 2014-04-11 02:44:01 <PRab> When I benchmark the HD, it comes out ok, but in general anything that runs level DB that I try to run on it ends up being slow. Games, Windows, Pictures all work reasonably fast off it.
296 2014-04-11 02:44:34 Lao_Ban_ has joined
297 2014-04-11 02:44:59 <PRab> Also, fyi the HD is a ST1000DM003 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148840)
298 2014-04-11 02:46:23 <codice> those are not very good drives, PRab
299 2014-04-11 02:46:49 <PRab> codice: Compared to?
300 2014-04-11 02:46:56 <codice> there were a few batches that had a number of issues due to buggy firmware
301 2014-04-11 02:47:22 espringe has joined
302 2014-04-11 02:47:33 <PRab> I know its not a WD Black or Velociraptor, but it should do for day to day.
303 2014-04-11 02:47:45 hsmiths has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
304 2014-04-11 02:47:53 <codice> I have 6 of the 2TB model at home on a NAS, had to swap 3 of them due to very poor random i/o performance
305 2014-04-11 02:48:09 <PRab> I tried to update its firmware, but that failed... I wonder...
306 2014-04-11 02:48:15 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
307 2014-04-11 02:48:32 <codice> had about 4000 here at work, about 5% have been replaced after a year
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309 2014-04-11 02:49:35 <PRab> Mine is ~9 months old and hasn't shown any signs of dieing. I still take daily backup to an external HD every night.
310 2014-04-11 02:49:37 <codice> if you're running windows, I believe you can use Seagate's tools to check the SMART data on the drive, and see if there's anything out of the ordinary
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312 2014-04-11 02:50:03 <PRab> Done and it came back clean. (about 2-3 weeks ago)
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322 2014-04-11 02:55:47 <web-12345> bitcoin ppa ia on version 9.0 is this safe?
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330 2014-04-11 03:04:30 <PRab> Sorry about that. Computer crashed when I tried to open Seagate Tools...
331 2014-04-11 03:05:01 <PRab> Of course that happens just as I am mentioning that my computer has been stable.
332 2014-04-11 03:05:39 <web-12345> damn spinny disks keep breaking
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347 2014-04-11 03:12:09 <PRab> So I've established a pattern. Seagate Tools = Windows crash. :p
348 2014-04-11 03:13:20 <Luke-Jr> Seagate is crap. I have 2 hard drives that just run insane hot
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352 2014-04-11 03:18:22 <aynstein> I purchased 24 Seagate's once, within 4 months 18 dead. Never again.
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354 2014-04-11 03:21:58 <HectorJ> Hi! Does someone know an existing implementation of BIP39 in C/C++ ? My mnemonic_to_seed function doesn't match the test vectors and I can't find out why...
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450 2014-04-11 05:27:35 <extor> I've just started scraping with the IE subsystem in Autoit and I was wondering if there's a better framework out there for wrb scraping that's noob(where I can just jump in and fiddle with the post/get logic) friendly? Maybe csharp perhaps with a scraping class. Or Python for windows or something else?
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459 2014-04-11 05:38:50 <Alchemy> hey all I am interested in writing my own client, is there any protocol specific documentation anywhere
460 2014-04-11 05:39:14 <Luke-Jr> Alchemy: if you have to ask, then you're not competent to do it..
461 2014-04-11 05:39:43 <Alchemy> Luke-Jr, Will be by the time im finished :)
462 2014-04-11 05:40:09 <Luke-Jr> Alchemy: I wouldn't bet on it.
463 2014-04-11 05:40:35 <Luke-Jr> Alchemy: the first thing you should learn is what Bitcoin is
464 2014-04-11 05:40:39 <Luke-Jr> it's a consensus system.
465 2014-04-11 05:41:08 <Luke-Jr> consensus systems are inherently averse to specifications
466 2014-04-11 05:41:26 <Luke-Jr> so, if you implement the documentation, you're almost guaranteed to have a broken implementation
467 2014-04-11 05:41:26 <Alchemy> there must be a common protocol spoken between all clients though
468 2014-04-11 05:41:39 <Luke-Jr> there must. it must be the exact same logic.
469 2014-04-11 05:41:41 <Luke-Jr> ie, the same code.
470 2014-04-11 05:42:08 <Luke-Jr> you *could* translate the code to another language, but you'd have to be insanely careful to get the translation perfect
471 2014-04-11 05:42:27 <Luke-Jr> and there's really no benefit to doing so
472 2014-04-11 05:42:33 <Alchemy> well that makes it a little more fun, suppose I should go break apart bitcoind/-QT's source and get converting
473 2014-04-11 05:42:55 <Luke-Jr> Alchemy: why not do something useful? <.<
474 2014-04-11 05:43:09 <Alchemy> This is how I learn
475 2014-04-11 05:43:29 <Alchemy> I set my self a goal that is outside my reach in a language I wish to learn
476 2014-04-11 05:43:36 <Luke-Jr> I see.
477 2014-04-11 05:43:41 <Alchemy> ok most of the time I enver get to the end of the project but I learn along the way the naunces of the language
478 2014-04-11 05:43:43 <Arnavion> As long as you don't get other people to use it, it's fine
479 2014-04-11 05:43:44 <Alchemy> in this case erlang
480 2014-04-11 05:43:45 <Luke-Jr> what language is that?
481 2014-04-11 05:43:54 <Luke-Jr> hm
482 2014-04-11 05:45:02 rdbell has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
483 2014-04-11 05:45:03 <Alchemy> the theory goes along the lines of making a library in erlang that basically creates an interacatable wallet for websites to use, that can process JSON requests, the web server wants to check the state of the wallet it sends s JSON request to the erlang server which then does the relevent lookupsd and returns the information
484 2014-04-11 05:45:11 <Alchemy> the same applies for creating new deposit addresses etc.. etc..
485 2014-04-11 05:46:04 <Luke-Jr> Alchemy: well, if you just want a wallet, no need to mess with the protocol..
486 2014-04-11 05:46:12 <Luke-Jr> totally different things
487 2014-04-11 05:46:49 <Alchemy> Luke-Jr, indeed but I wanted it so that the website would be able to send money as well, I was under the impression that would require the erlangized subserver to be able to send requests on the bitcoin network its self
488 2014-04-11 05:47:34 <Alchemy> I invision it as two seperate libraries [Wallet] & [Client]
489 2014-04-11 05:47:50 <Luke-Jr> Alchemy: oh, so you mean the *network* protocol, not the *bitcoin* protocol
490 2014-04-11 05:47:52 rdbell has joined
491 2014-04-11 05:48:00 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
492 2014-04-11 05:48:04 <Alchemy> Luke-Jr, yes sorry that was my bad phrasing
493 2014-04-11 05:48:13 <Alchemy> thank you
494 2014-04-11 05:48:18 <Luke-Jr> now your project makes sense XD
495 2014-04-11 05:48:21 <Alchemy> :)
496 2014-04-11 05:48:29 <Luke-Jr> Alchemy: also be sure to read over the HD wallet spec
497 2014-04-11 05:48:40 <Luke-Jr> BIP 32
498 2014-04-11 05:48:43 <Alchemy> absolutely
499 2014-04-11 05:48:45 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki
500 2014-04-11 05:50:10 <Alchemy> its going to be a fun few months, wonder how far I will get this time.... its kind of a running joke, I have used this method of learning for perl, python, c & C# and succeeded to a reasonable degree with all of them, erlang however has been a kick in the teeth the last two attempts
501 2014-04-11 05:50:28 <Alchemy> my brain seems to have some issue with it for some reason
502 2014-04-11 05:50:50 <Luke-Jr> Perl, Python, C, and C# are all procedural-oriented languages
503 2014-04-11 05:50:57 <Luke-Jr> Erlang is fundamentally different IIRC
504 2014-04-11 05:52:07 prism has joined
505 2014-04-11 05:52:12 <prism> ok that was interesting
506 2014-04-11 05:52:12 <prism> * Disconnected (Connection reset by peer).
507 2014-04-11 05:52:14 <prism> (alchemy)
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510 2014-04-11 05:52:34 <SomeoneWeird> somebody has registered the nick Alchemy :)
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512 2014-04-11 05:52:42 <Alchemy> yes me ;)
513 2014-04-11 05:53:13 <Luke-Jr> [05:49:04] <Luke-Jr> Perl, Python, C, and C# are all procedural-oriented languages
514 2014-04-11 05:53:14 <Luke-Jr> [05:49:11] <Luke-Jr> Erlang is fundamentally different IIRC
515 2014-04-11 05:53:19 <Alchemy> <Alchemy> oh absolutely, that is why I picked it :)
516 2014-04-11 05:53:40 <SomeoneWeird> erlang is very different :)
517 2014-04-11 05:53:46 <SomeoneWeird> as are most functional langs
518 2014-04-11 05:54:25 <Luke-Jr> personally, when/if I get around to functional, I'd probably be trying out Haskell
519 2014-04-11 05:54:30 <Luke-Jr> it has darcs <.<
520 2014-04-11 05:54:59 * gmaxwell coughs
521 2014-04-11 05:55:52 <SomeoneWeird> Luke-Jr, learning a functional language will affect the way you program
522 2014-04-11 05:55:53 <SomeoneWeird> in a good way
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525 2014-04-11 05:56:35 <Luke-Jr> I think gmaxwell is choking at the off-topicness? :/
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531 2014-04-11 06:03:24 <olalonde> hola
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582 2014-04-11 06:50:08 <warren> Anyone interested in doing nightly gitian builds of master?
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598 2014-04-11 07:02:06 <fanquake> ;;blocks
599 2014-04-11 07:02:07 <gribble> 295211
600 2014-04-11 07:02:35 MoALTz has joined
601 2014-04-11 07:02:48 <fanquake> Who's getting the cake when we reach 300'000?
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613 2014-04-11 07:14:00 <warren> I'm working on a draft release roadmap for Bitcoin Core 0.10. PM me if you want to help edit it.
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630 2014-04-11 07:26:33 <wumpus> 0.10?
631 2014-04-11 07:26:53 <wumpus> I thought you wanted to propose a 0.9.2?
632 2014-04-11 07:27:29 <warren> oh
633 2014-04-11 07:27:59 cadaver has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
634 2014-04-11 07:28:43 <wumpus> it's to soon to call it a new major release
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636 2014-04-11 07:29:07 <warren> ok
637 2014-04-11 07:29:36 <wumpus> (but that's purely version-number-technical, we could still fork it from the current master as that is convenient)
638 2014-04-11 07:30:03 <warren> PM
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644 2014-04-11 07:33:35 <warren> wumpus: should "Feature freeze" be the same day as the "String freeze"?
645 2014-04-11 07:33:45 <warren> normally a feature freeze would be before a string freeze
646 2014-04-11 07:33:50 <warren> but there isn't much time
647 2014-04-11 07:34:30 <wumpus> the feature freeze at the time of the RC makes sense, it's what we always do already
648 2014-04-11 07:34:42 <wumpus> RCs only contain fixes
649 2014-04-11 07:35:39 <warren> I'll setup nightly gitian builds, GPG signed with a throwaway key on the build server, uploaded to S3 or something.
650 2014-04-11 07:35:51 <wumpus> ok, great
651 2014-04-11 07:36:24 MoALTz has joined
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653 2014-04-11 07:36:48 <warren> wumpus: your builds that you posted, where did the partial hash in the filename come fro?
654 2014-04-11 07:36:54 paul0 has joined
655 2014-04-11 07:37:04 <wumpus> the commit id
656 2014-04-11 07:37:05 paul0 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
657 2014-04-11 07:37:16 <wumpus> it's the only hash that makes sense to include in the file name :-)
658 2014-04-11 07:37:52 <warren> I'll probably make it something like bitcoin-20140415-hash.tar.xz
659 2014-04-11 07:38:14 <wumpus> good idea
660 2014-04-11 07:38:31 <wumpus> date is better for sorting and the hash better for bug reporting
661 2014-04-11 07:38:39 <wumpus> so let's include both
662 2014-04-11 07:38:44 <warren> yup
663 2014-04-11 07:39:48 <warren> hmm... where to upload the nightly builds to
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665 2014-04-11 07:40:27 <warren> wumpus: oh... instead of nightly build, a build after every PR merge?
666 2014-04-11 07:40:54 <wumpus> meh, I'd do a nightly build if I were you
667 2014-04-11 07:41:00 <warren> ok
668 2014-04-11 07:41:08 <wumpus> pulltester should take care of the build-this-pull eventually
669 2014-04-11 07:41:26 <warren> nightlys will easily be identical to a previous nightly though
670 2014-04-11 07:41:36 <wumpus> then only generate a nightly if it changed
671 2014-04-11 07:41:41 <warren> ok
672 2014-04-11 07:41:45 <wumpus> or rename it
673 2014-04-11 07:41:51 <warren> haha
674 2014-04-11 07:41:53 <warren> deterministic
675 2014-04-11 07:42:34 <warren> 2 May 2014: Feature freeze. Source string freeze. Release candidate.
676 2014-04-11 07:42:34 <warren> 9 May 2014: Release of Bitcoin Core 0.9.2.
677 2014-04-11 07:42:45 <warren> any other goal we can mention?
678 2014-04-11 07:43:38 <wumpus> well I'd personally say that mentioning a specific day is too precise
679 2014-04-11 07:43:49 <wumpus> time between rc and release depends on what problems are found
680 2014-04-11 07:44:12 <warren> The "schedule can slip" part, setting a goal is a good thing.
681 2014-04-11 07:44:32 <wumpus> setting a goal is good, but 'beginning of may' is a goal too
682 2014-04-11 07:45:19 <wumpus> I'd say waiting a week between rc and release is fine as long as there are no problems that require fixing (and thus a new rc)
683 2014-04-11 07:45:40 <warren> conditional week ... with allowance for additional rc's
684 2014-04-11 07:45:46 <wumpus> maybe 'a week after the last rc'
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737 2014-04-11 09:15:56 <__david__> Hi Fellas, I am trying to write an extention to a bitcoin client for windows and I am getting something weird
738 2014-04-11 09:15:59 austinhill has joined
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740 2014-04-11 09:16:23 <__david__> When i issue Writefile, i get access denierd error (I am the one who created the file in the first place)
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757 2014-04-11 09:44:23 <Luke-Jr> __david__: this is not ##windows
758 2014-04-11 09:44:52 JackH has joined
759 2014-04-11 09:44:58 <__david__> Luke-Jr: no problem i solved it, I did "GENERIC_READ || GENERIC_WRITE " the error was the || insted of |
760 2014-04-11 09:45:13 <__david__> I was reading the block chain, i thought something fishy was up, but it was my bug
761 2014-04-11 09:45:51 <sipa> it's also not #programming101 :)
762 2014-04-11 09:46:02 <Luke-Jr> __david__: if you're learning to program, it would probably be a good idea to learn an actual programming language instead of Windows APIs
763 2014-04-11 09:46:13 Elglobonoob has joined
764 2014-04-11 09:46:55 <__david__> hahahhaha)))
765 2014-04-11 09:47:04 <__david__> ok
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767 2014-04-11 09:47:53 <__david__> I am always learning to program Luke-Jr ,.., winapis are evil,,,.., very combersome to work with sure
768 2014-04-11 09:47:53 <gribble> Error: "," is not a valid command.
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771 2014-04-11 09:49:43 <olalonde> anyone understands what txin sequences are for? apparently it's related to nLockTime but I'm not sure I understand why they are needed
772 2014-04-11 09:50:11 <airbreather> olalonde: for replacement transactions like the kinds of things that would enable contracts
773 2014-04-11 09:50:42 <airbreather> olalonde: see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts
774 2014-04-11 09:51:14 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: it isn't really needed AFAIK, just a quirk
775 2014-04-11 09:51:32 beachandbytes has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
776 2014-04-11 09:51:38 <Luke-Jr> something that should have been out-of-band
777 2014-04-11 09:52:34 CheckDavid has joined
778 2014-04-11 09:53:07 <olalonde> ok
779 2014-04-11 09:54:59 Milanito has joined
780 2014-04-11 09:55:29 <olalonde> do the actual sequence number influence lock time other then activate it if one of them is not 0xffffffff?
781 2014-04-11 09:57:10 <airbreather> Not directly, I don't think. It's mainly the fact that without being able to set a lock time in the future, I don't think you can actually do anything useful with sequence numbers
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812 2014-04-11 10:45:53 <sipa> olalonde: the only meaning for sequence numbers right now, is that if they're int_max, the transaction is always final
813 2014-04-11 10:46:10 <sipa> olalonde: satoshi envisioned transaction replacement policy to be influenced by it
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819 2014-04-11 11:02:19 <Luke-Jr> sipa: good catch; we might just have to downgrade the VM :<
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823 2014-04-11 11:11:34 <aynstein> sipa mind a quick pm regarding the wiki?
824 2014-04-11 11:13:15 <sipa> better ask it in here
825 2014-04-11 11:13:28 <sipa> Luke-Jr: downgrade the vm?
826 2014-04-11 11:14:25 <Luke-Jr> sipa: to an OS with an older libc
827 2014-04-11 11:14:34 <Luke-Jr> aynstein: #bitcoin-wiki ? :P
828 2014-04-11 11:14:37 <wumpus> I'd prefer just to go with static executables, then
829 2014-04-11 11:15:06 <aynstein> Luke-Jr: good idea, thanks !
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831 2014-04-11 11:15:15 <wumpus> downgrading gcc and libc is not desirable
832 2014-04-11 11:15:31 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: sounds okay to me, if the libc can handle that
833 2014-04-11 11:15:41 <Luke-Jr> maybe we should consider a "light" libc in that case
834 2014-04-11 11:15:44 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: the static builds work fine
835 2014-04-11 11:15:53 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: many people are using them and I haven't had one complaint
836 2014-04-11 11:15:58 <Luke-Jr> otoh, if people really want small downloads, they can build themselves
837 2014-04-11 11:16:10 <wumpus> it's not that much bigger
838 2014-04-11 11:16:20 <wumpus> we already statically link most libraries
839 2014-04-11 11:16:24 <Luke-Jr> then might as well
840 2014-04-11 11:17:00 <wumpus> the only thing that's not (sanely) possible is to statically link qt on linux, but the stable linux distributions are mostly used on headless servers to that is no big loss
841 2014-04-11 11:17:55 <wumpus> then again, coryfields's solution is used succsfully in other projects, even firefox
842 2014-04-11 11:17:56 <Luke-Jr> er
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844 2014-04-11 11:18:08 <Luke-Jr> can we static link libc/libstdc++ safely and NOT static link Qt? O.o
845 2014-04-11 11:18:16 <sipa> yeah, i like cory's solution- i just want to understand the risks
846 2014-04-11 11:18:17 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: no... just make bitcoin-qt dynamically linked
847 2014-04-11 11:18:24 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: a bug in firefox is no big deal, it has plenty already
848 2014-04-11 11:18:24 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: keep it like it is now
849 2014-04-11 11:18:43 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: so B-Qt doesn't work on <most OS>â
850 2014-04-11 11:18:54 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: it does work on most OS
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852 2014-04-11 11:18:56 <Luke-Jr> it's mainly GUI users who need the binaries at all
853 2014-04-11 11:19:00 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: eh, no?
854 2014-04-11 11:19:03 <wumpus> just not a few old, stable distributions
855 2014-04-11 11:19:09 <wumpus> which as said, are mainly used on servers
856 2014-04-11 11:19:13 <Luke-Jr> it doesn't work on Fedora, RedHat, Debian, Ubuntu LTS..
857 2014-04-11 11:19:25 <wumpus> it *does* work on Ubuntu LTS 12.04
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859 2014-04-11 11:19:36 <Luke-Jr> oh, still
860 2014-04-11 11:19:42 <wumpus> (that's what we built on)
861 2014-04-11 11:19:57 <wumpus> would be a bit strange if it didn't work on the OS that we use as build environment...
862 2014-04-11 11:20:21 <Luke-Jr> Ubuntu users don't *need* these anyway
863 2014-04-11 11:20:24 <Luke-Jr> they have the PPA
864 2014-04-11 11:20:39 <wumpus> I haven't heard one person request a staticaly linked bitcoin-qt
865 2014-04-11 11:20:57 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I've heard many complain it's PIE :P
866 2014-04-11 11:21:01 <wumpus> everyone that approached me about stable-distribution problems was using it headless, on a server
867 2014-04-11 11:21:04 <Luke-Jr> (without understanding why of course)
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869 2014-04-11 11:21:21 <Luke-Jr> weird
870 2014-04-11 11:21:38 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: because 'file' shows pie executables as shared library, which makes the (broken) gnome file manager think it is non-executable
871 2014-04-11 11:21:52 <Luke-Jr> right
872 2014-04-11 11:21:57 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: should be fixed on that side, though
873 2014-04-11 11:22:04 <Luke-Jr> ?
874 2014-04-11 11:22:17 <Luke-Jr> oh, I agree. but it won't help us deal with the complaints :P
875 2014-04-11 11:22:17 <wumpus> it must be fixed in gnome's file manager
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877 2014-04-11 11:22:29 <Luke-Jr> err, I'd say it's "file" that's broken here, but ok
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880 2014-04-11 11:22:44 <wumpus> if it has the +x bit it's executable for dummy's sake
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882 2014-04-11 11:23:12 <Luke-Jr> most libraries have +x :x
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884 2014-04-11 11:23:53 <wumpus> not on my system, checking /lib and /usr/lib
885 2014-04-11 11:24:12 <Luke-Jr> virtually all mine do
886 2014-04-11 11:24:24 <Luke-Jr> and segfault if executed <.<
887 2014-04-11 11:24:27 <wumpus> the only one executable is the dynamic linker itself, which makes sense
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890 2014-04-11 11:25:05 <wumpus> (as it's executed as 'interpreter' for dynamically linked executables)
891 2014-04-11 11:26:00 <wumpus> in any case it'd be possible to add a .sh script that does nothing but launch the executable with passed-through arguments
892 2014-04-11 11:26:30 <wumpus> ... at least if gnome is 'smart enough' to see .sh files with +x as executables, if not, it's a lost cause
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910 2014-04-11 11:55:51 <RocketNuts> is it correct that my Bitcoin Core 0.9 is not being updated to 0.9.1 when using "sudo apt-get update" ?
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912 2014-04-11 11:56:37 <sipa> RocketNuts: depends on whether the source you are updating from has already been updated
913 2014-04-11 11:56:39 <RocketNuts> (I originally installed Bitcoin Core using sudo apt-get install bitcoin-qt and sudo apt-get install bitcoind)
914 2014-04-11 11:57:06 <RocketNuts> before first time installing I did sudo apt-add-repository ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin
915 2014-04-11 11:57:21 <RocketNuts> are there multiple sources I can get it from..?
916 2014-04-11 11:57:39 <sipa> that PPA is not yet updated to 0.9.1: https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin
917 2014-04-11 11:57:53 <sipa> but they are built using dynamically-linked openssl, i think
918 2014-04-11 11:57:59 <sipa> so updating wouldn't do anything
919 2014-04-11 11:58:14 <sipa> you just need to update your system openssl library
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921 2014-04-11 11:58:50 <RocketNuts> yeah already did that
922 2014-04-11 11:59:06 <RocketNuts> but are there more PPA's with Bitcoin Core? (I'm kinda new to this PPA system)
923 2014-04-11 12:01:01 <arubi> RocketNuts, use `sudo apt-get upgrade` to upgrade packages
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927 2014-04-11 12:02:02 <RocketNuts> arubi: is that something else than `sudo apt-get update` (already did that before), just tried upgrade and it says "0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded"
928 2014-04-11 12:02:12 <RocketNuts> so I guess my libssl is up-todate
929 2014-04-11 12:02:42 <arubi> use `apt-cache policy openssl` to look at _your_ openssl version
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931 2014-04-11 12:03:09 <arubi> but if you're using a pre-compiled bitcoin core, then it was compiled against a different library version (the new one)
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934 2014-04-11 12:03:56 <arubi> btw, `update` is to update cache for sources. `upgrade` is to actually perform the updates, and `dist-upgrade` is for lower level packages
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941 2014-04-11 12:06:11 <RocketNuts> `apt-cache policy openssl` says: "Installed: 1.0.1-4ubuntu5.12"
942 2014-04-11 12:06:22 <RocketNuts> arubi: ah, thanks!
943 2014-04-11 12:06:38 <arubi> np RocketNuts
944 2014-04-11 12:07:12 <RocketNuts> I never compiled anything in ubuntu, so I guess I'm using a precompiled Bitcoin Core 0.9
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946 2014-04-11 12:07:28 <arubi> which ubuntu version are you using?
947 2014-04-11 12:07:47 <shadders> !seen genjix
948 2014-04-11 12:07:47 <gribble> genjix was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 year, 32 weeks, 3 days, 9 hours, 35 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: <genjix> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh8W4ZglOlw
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952 2014-04-11 12:12:55 <Luke-Jr> RocketNuts: that libssl version should be good
953 2014-04-11 12:12:57 <Luke-Jr> http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-2165-1/
954 2014-04-11 12:13:13 <SomeoneWeird> 5.12 is the patched version
955 2014-04-11 12:13:23 <SomeoneWeird> .11 isn't :)
956 2014-04-11 12:13:26 nsh__ has joined
957 2014-04-11 12:13:36 <RocketNuts> great :)
958 2014-04-11 12:13:41 <RocketNuts> my bitcoins are safe! :D
959 2014-04-11 12:14:22 <SomeoneWeird> well....
960 2014-04-11 12:14:22 <SomeoneWeird> lol
961 2014-04-11 12:14:45 <RocketNuts> Another question: how do payment processors like Bitpay and Coinbase accept transactions so fast, I mean without waiting for a confirmation (literally in a matter of seconds). How do they avoid the risk of getting ripped off through double spend attempts etc?
962 2014-04-11 12:14:52 <SomeoneWeird> that is not entirely dependant on heartbleed being patched :)
963 2014-04-11 12:15:04 <SomeoneWeird> they don't
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993 2014-04-11 12:26:24 <hno> Still fighting with my testnet nodes, now they are inconsistent in current difficulty. getdifficulty returns 1, but getblocktemplate gives a much target (bits).
994 2014-04-11 12:26:24 Optimo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
995 2014-04-11 12:26:42 Milanito has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
996 2014-04-11 12:26:49 <hno> apart from loosing network connectivity from time to time due to a networking problem.
997 2014-04-11 12:27:04 Belkaar has joined
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1000 2014-04-11 12:27:35 <Luke-Jr> hno: getdifficulty isn't current difficulty.
1001 2014-04-11 12:28:25 <Luke-Jr> it's the difficulty of the last block
1002 2014-04-11 12:28:50 Milanito has joined
1003 2014-04-11 12:29:02 <hno> ah
1004 2014-04-11 12:29:04 <Luke-Jr> otherwise someone could potentially make you think their blockchain had a high difficulty, but never actually get more than 1/4th of the difficulty there
1005 2014-04-11 12:29:18 <Luke-Jr> (1/4 seems like nothing today, but back when Bitcoin was new..)
1006 2014-04-11 12:29:40 bkbk has joined
1007 2014-04-11 12:31:07 <hno> thanks
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1018 2014-04-11 12:38:42 <hno> What is the 1/4 criteria?
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1028 2014-04-11 12:45:30 <Luke-Jr> hno: difficulty never adjusts more than 4x
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1031 2014-04-11 12:51:19 <vetch> Luke-Jr: what's the motivation for that particular value?
1032 2014-04-11 12:51:56 <Luke-Jr> vetch: virtually all the values in bitcoin are arbitrary
1033 2014-04-11 12:52:35 <vetch> Luke-Jr: I know, but I can't work out why a limit on the upper bound would be necessary
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1038 2014-04-11 13:01:17 <kjj> I view it as a sanity check. I haven't ever seen a specific reason for it, other than that limits are usually a good idea.
1039 2014-04-11 13:01:54 Alchemy is now known as daemon
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1042 2014-04-11 13:08:37 <__david__> does bitcoin use openssl, what about that bug?
1043 2014-04-11 13:09:04 <Apocalyptic> where is the latest checkpoint in terms of blocks ?
1044 2014-04-11 13:09:05 <kjj> upgrade to 0.9.1
1045 2014-04-11 13:09:52 <kjj> Apocalyptic: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/checkpoints.cpp
1046 2014-04-11 13:10:13 <Apocalyptic> thank you
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1060 2014-04-11 13:18:25 <gavinandresen> Has anybody else looked for heartbleed payment protocol vulnerabilities in 0.9.0 ? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563048.msg6163077#msg6163077
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1064 2014-04-11 13:19:53 <gavinandresen> I haven't taken the time to figure out why the OSX 0.9.0 seems to be not vulnerable, but it would be nice to get a definitive yes or no (and if we're not vulnerable, to know why)
1065 2014-04-11 13:26:51 benrcole has joined
1066 2014-04-11 13:27:23 <wumpus> gavinandresen: going to give it a try with the linux and windows 0.9.0
1067 2014-04-11 13:27:55 <gavinandresen> wumpus: spiffy
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1070 2014-04-11 13:28:52 <gavinandresen> wumpus: RE: 0.9.1 : I think SOMETHING needs to change in 0.9.1 with transaction fees; either auto fee estimation (almost done, I promise!) or just increasing defaults to match reality
1071 2014-04-11 13:28:59 <gavinandresen> wumpus: err, I mean 0.9.3
1072 2014-04-11 13:29:01 <gavinandresen> .2
1073 2014-04-11 13:29:05 <gavinandresen> (can't type this morning)(
1074 2014-04-11 13:32:56 <EagleTM> gavinandresen: I'm not in a position to give a definitive answer, but to my knowledge even the latest mac osx still uses 0.9.x openssl, that may be why it's not vuln when build on that platform
1075 2014-04-11 13:33:27 <vetch> yep, apple still ships 0.9.8
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1078 2014-04-11 13:35:36 <gavinandresen> EagleTM: that could be it. although the Help->Advanced box said Qt was using openssl 1.0.1f. Could be the QT fetching code was using a different openssl, though
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1082 2014-04-11 13:38:57 <wumpus> bitcoin:?r=https://192.168.1.10:4433/test
1083 2014-04-11 13:39:01 <wumpus> eh, wrong window
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1085 2014-04-11 13:39:48 <wumpus> pacemaker.py, on connection from linux client says: "Possibly not vulnerable"
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1087 2014-04-11 13:40:06 <gavinandresen> wumpus: that's good news!
1088 2014-04-11 13:40:49 <gavinandresen> wumpus: I wonder if the QT fetch-a-https-url code turns off heartbeats or something
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1092 2014-04-11 13:42:46 <sipa> gavinandresen: if the connection is short enough, there will never be a heartbeat, i guess
1093 2014-04-11 13:42:51 <wumpus> ... doh, of course the linux one is not vulnerable, it dynamically links Qt, so uses the system Qt and OpenSSL (which were patched)
1094 2014-04-11 13:43:02 <sipa> gavinandresen: doesn't mean that an attacker service can't send one
1095 2014-04-11 13:43:16 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1096 2014-04-11 13:43:25 <wumpus> pacemaker.py is supposed to send an hardbeat immediately
1097 2014-04-11 13:43:30 <sipa> ok
1098 2014-04-11 13:43:44 <gavinandresen> yes, during handshake I believe
1099 2014-04-11 13:44:00 <GAit> have you seen BRIT?
1100 2014-04-11 13:44:06 <wumpus> bad news, the windows one is vulnerable
1101 2014-04-11 13:44:14 <wumpus> I get a 64k dump of memory
1102 2014-04-11 13:45:18 <gavinandresen> wumpus: ok.
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1108 2014-04-11 13:48:55 <wumpus> though it's hard to say if it contains keys...
1109 2014-04-11 13:49:29 <wumpus> I can try a few times and upload the data if anyone wants to look at it
1110 2014-04-11 13:49:48 <wumpus> (yes, it's regtest, so I'll gladly upload the wallet.dat too)
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1116 2014-04-11 13:57:12 <wumpus> must of the data seems to have to do with qt and openssl certificates
1117 2014-04-11 13:57:27 <_2_katelyn123> what you doing
1118 2014-04-11 13:58:41 <wumpus> I'm looking into the memory of my 0.9.0 bitcoin-qt.exe process (running in wine) w/ heartbleed vulnerability
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1121 2014-04-11 14:00:09 <_2_katelyn123> on what
1122 2014-04-11 14:00:25 <gavinandresen> wumpus: immediately after startup, when the wallet is loaded into memory, is probably the most likely time to find private keys on the heap. Although they'll be encrypted if the wallet is encrypted...
1123 2014-04-11 14:01:09 <_2_katelyn123> go away
1124 2014-04-11 14:01:21 <wumpus> gavinandresen: yes, encrypting your wallet would help here
1125 2014-04-11 14:01:27 <sipa> _2_katelyn123: ?
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1127 2014-04-11 14:01:33 <Apocalyptic> sipa, probably a troll
1128 2014-04-11 14:01:46 <gavinandresen> wumpus: although I suppose if memory gets freed wallet data could be exposed at any point in time.
1129 2014-04-11 14:01:51 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1130 2014-04-11 14:01:52 <wumpus> gavinandresen: at the time the payment request is requested, the wallet will still be locked
1131 2014-04-11 14:02:04 <_2_katelyn123> get Skype
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1133 2014-04-11 14:02:13 <wumpus> gavinandresen: but keys are zeroed when freed
1134 2014-04-11 14:02:18 <gavinandresen> wumpus: yes. And we're pretty careful about using the secure_allocator (which wipes memory on delete) for private keys
1135 2014-04-11 14:02:27 <wumpus> right
1136 2014-04-11 14:04:06 <gavinandresen> what do you think about sending out an alert? Since windows is vulnerable, seems to me like we should (with a "don't panic, you're almost certainly fine⦠but upgrade" tone)
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1138 2014-04-11 14:05:09 <wumpus> an alert targeted specifically at 0.9.0 makes sense
1139 2014-04-11 14:05:27 <gavinandresen> yes. Unfortunately we can't send out OS-specific alerts...
1140 2014-04-11 14:06:06 <vetch> that's luckily easily implemented and backwards compatible
1141 2014-04-11 14:06:55 <wumpus> linux and macosx users still have to make sure that their system's openssl version is upgraded, but indeed, they do not strictly need to upgrade to 0.9.1
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1143 2014-04-11 14:07:16 <vetch> wumpus: OSX users were never at risk, the system has never gone above 0.9.8
1144 2014-04-11 14:07:23 <wumpus> vetch: right
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1149 2014-04-11 14:09:39 <wumpus> and yes, OS specific alerts would be nice
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1152 2014-04-11 14:12:49 <gavinandresen> wumpus: proposed bitcoin.org alert page: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/10183248
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1154 2014-04-11 14:14:46 <kinlo> altough it is perhaps not very "professional", a quick link to xkcd really explains very good what heartbleed is and why it's so dangerous
1155 2014-04-11 14:15:15 <vetch> gavinandresen: the second paragraph seems a little awkward, specifically the first sentence.
1156 2014-04-11 14:15:46 <gavinandresen> vetch: suggest rewording?
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1158 2014-04-11 14:15:52 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: "a website controlled by an attacker" is not quite accurate; MITM is a risk
1159 2014-04-11 14:16:00 <vetch> gavinandresen: trying.
1160 2014-04-11 14:16:20 <kinlo> gavinandresen: shouldn the first , just be "and" in that sentence?
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1162 2014-04-11 14:16:42 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: is it a risk worth mentioning? MITM a TCP connection is non-trivial unless you're an ISP
1163 2014-04-11 14:17:04 <vetch> kinlo: no, it's a list of three requirements. having two "and" in a row is awkward
1164 2014-04-11 14:17:09 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: it's not especially difficult if you can get in the same datacenter, which isn't itself usually very hard for criminals
1165 2014-04-11 14:17:24 <sipa> gavinandresen: or you set up some public wifi, or own an internet cafe
1166 2014-04-11 14:17:26 <kinlo> vetch: it's unclear now
1167 2014-04-11 14:17:38 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: mitm is not the way I would attack the bug
1168 2014-04-11 14:17:50 <Luke-Jr> "You can verify the version of OpenSSL being used from the Bitcoin Core GUI's Debug window (accessed from the Help menu)." <-- some distros don't bump the version, so this will show a "vulnerable" version :/
1169 2014-04-11 14:18:07 <kinlo> hmmmz, at least not for the server side, but indeed, the client initiated connection makes sense to do mitm, ignore my last comment )
1170 2014-04-11 14:18:21 <Luke-Jr> "Linux users should upgrade their system's version of OpenSSL." <-- unless they use the Linux binaries, which need updating to 0.9.1..
1171 2014-04-11 14:19:21 <gavinandresen> I'll simplify the "What you should do" to : 1) Upgrade to 0.9.1. 2) If you are Linux, upgrade your openssl.
1172 2014-04-11 14:19:30 <gavinandresen> Linux users should do both.
1173 2014-04-11 14:19:50 <Luke-Jr> makes sense
1174 2014-04-11 14:19:57 <vetch> gavinandresen: i'm struggling with how to make that first sentence more readable. it almost needs to be a list of bullet points
1175 2014-04-11 14:20:16 <gavinandresen> ⦠and I'll remove the "from a website controlled by an attacker"
1176 2014-04-11 14:20:17 <kinlo> so, isn't the linux / -qt version affected?
1177 2014-04-11 14:20:31 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: might make sense to put "What you should do" above "How serious is the risk", maybe
1178 2014-04-11 14:20:34 <kinlo> the payment protocol is cross platform right, or does only the windows build support it?
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1180 2014-04-11 14:20:50 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: if you compiled yourself, it uses the system's OpenSSL
1181 2014-04-11 14:20:51 <gavinandresen> wumpus: were you testing the 0.9.0 release binaries? or binaries you compiled yourself?
1182 2014-04-11 14:21:01 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: if, but we're advocating not to do so
1183 2014-04-11 14:21:11 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: who is?
1184 2014-04-11 14:21:36 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: I still refer to the open letter you guys wrote last year :)
1185 2014-04-11 14:21:51 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: that was to distro package managers, not to end users who might compile the code
1186 2014-04-11 14:22:23 <Luke-Jr> and it was about messing with non-standard patches without thinking it through; which is also not merely compiling the code as-is
1187 2014-04-11 14:22:24 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: perhaps, I Still advocate nobody to recompile anything
1188 2014-04-11 14:22:31 <Luke-Jr> well that's silly
1189 2014-04-11 14:22:43 <kinlo> except for those who know what they are doing
1190 2014-04-11 14:22:43 <Luke-Jr> the ideal is each user compile it themselves
1191 2014-04-11 14:23:00 <kinlo> and when they use gitian, so their lib versions are correct
1192 2014-04-11 14:23:00 <Luke-Jr> an unrealistic ideal obviously, but still an ideal
1193 2014-04-11 14:23:29 <gavinandresen> Updated gist: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/10183248
1194 2014-04-11 14:24:16 <kinlo> so again, aren't non-linux versions affected?
1195 2014-04-11 14:24:19 <vetch> gavinandresen: I think kinlo is more correct
1196 2014-04-11 14:24:36 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: "You can verify the version of OpenSSL being used â¦" is going to invite panicing on Ubuntu and Debian (at least)
1197 2014-04-11 14:24:37 <vetch> line 19 needs an "and"
1198 2014-04-11 14:24:44 <gavinandresen> kinlo vetch: please stop speculating, grab the 0.9.0 linux binaries, and test.
1199 2014-04-11 14:25:13 <kinlo> gavinandresen: I was actually more referring to the mac version
1200 2014-04-11 14:25:19 <vetch> gavinandresen: I was correcting the message, not speculating on wether or not it was vulnerable
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1202 2014-04-11 14:25:32 <kinlo> but I don't know how to test client-side
1203 2014-04-11 14:25:37 <gavinandresen> kinlo: according to my testing the OSX 0.9.0 is NOT vulnerable.
1204 2014-04-11 14:25:49 <kinlo> ic
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1206 2014-04-11 14:26:17 <gavinandresen> kinlo: see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563048.msg6163077#msg6163077 more testers very welcome
1207 2014-04-11 14:26:50 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: are Mac builds static OpenSSL btw?
1208 2014-04-11 14:27:10 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: RE: panicing on Ubuntu and Debian: we should tell them to beat up the Ubuntu/Debian maintainers when they panic
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1210 2014-04-11 14:28:07 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: I thought soâ¦
1211 2014-04-11 14:28:12 <Luke-Jr> still takes time to explain that. >_<
1212 2014-04-11 14:29:10 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: suggested wording for the alert page RE: Debian/Ubuntu mess up version numbers?
1213 2014-04-11 14:30:40 <gavinandresen> vetch: My English teacher taught me that it is ok to create a list as: This, this, and that. Instead of This and this and that.
1214 2014-04-11 14:30:47 franco has joined
1215 2014-04-11 14:30:54 <franco> dear all
1216 2014-04-11 14:30:58 <franco> I'm franco
1217 2014-04-11 14:31:10 <Luke-Jr> maybe "If you use the official binaries, you can verify the version of OpenSSL being used from the Bitcoin Core GUI's Debug window (accessed from the Help menu). If you compiled Bitcoin Core yourself, ensure your operating system's OpenSSL is up to date and not vulnerable."
1218 2014-04-11 14:31:12 <franco> I'm an italian student
1219 2014-04-11 14:31:32 <vetch> gavinandresen: I was taught that too, but for in this case it seems that it's saying "this" OR "this" AND "this"
1220 2014-04-11 14:31:33 <Luke-Jr> franco: we're discussing English now, not Latin
1221 2014-04-11 14:31:33 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: ENOCARE for anybody who compiled themselves
1222 2014-04-11 14:31:37 Wild0wnes has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1223 2014-04-11 14:31:51 <franco> I vould to build a simple system for my university exam
1224 2014-04-11 14:32:22 <Luke-Jr> "If you use the official binaries, you can verify the version of OpenSSL being used from the Bitcoin Core GUI's Debug window (accessed from the Help menu). If you compiled Bitcoin Core yourself or use the Ubuntu PPA, ensure your operating system's OpenSSL is up to date and not vulnerable."
1225 2014-04-11 14:32:41 <franco> and I vould to create a simple bit coin bank application
1226 2014-04-11 14:32:54 <franco> some one could help me to start
1227 2014-04-11 14:33:04 <Luke-Jr> franco: off-topic
1228 2014-04-11 14:33:31 benrcole1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1229 2014-04-11 14:33:47 <franco> why it's off-topic
1230 2014-04-11 14:33:50 <vetch> gavinandresen: I've tried putting into a dot point list, but then it's back to it being OR, I think it's just going to be one of those things that's ridiculously hard to phrase.
1231 2014-04-11 14:34:05 <sipa> franco: this channel is about development of the bitcoin protocol and clients using it
1232 2014-04-11 14:34:30 <franco> where can I talk about my problems
1233 2014-04-11 14:34:52 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr vetch: updated
1234 2014-04-11 14:35:24 <gavinandresen> Has anybody tested the 0.9.0 Linux binaries to see if they're vulnerable?
1235 2014-04-11 14:35:36 linagee has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1236 2014-04-11 14:35:52 <vetch> gavinandresen: I believe that reads better.
1237 2014-04-11 14:36:11 <kinlo> if you are using the Windows version of the Bitcoin Core GUI with an unencrypted wallet, it is possible that one or more of your private keys could be sent to an attacker as soon as you click on a bitcoin: link.
1238 2014-04-11 14:36:13 <wumpus> gavinandresen: release binaries, ofc
1239 2014-04-11 14:37:06 <gavinandresen> wumpus: so release Linux binaries weren't vulnerable⦠weird, I wonder why.
1240 2014-04-11 14:37:12 <kinlo> the comma's are full stops that make the sentence harder. My version is a too long sentence, but I believe it is easier to read
1241 2014-04-11 14:37:21 <vetch> kinlo, gavinandresen: if you are using the Windows version of the Bitcoin Core GUI with an unencrypted wallet, it is possible that your wallet could be compromised by clicking on a bitcoin: payment request link.
1242 2014-04-11 14:37:28 <wumpus> gavinandresen: as I said, the linux binaries link Qt dynamically
1243 2014-04-11 14:37:41 <wumpus> gavinandresen: Qt, in turn, links OpenSSL dynamically
1244 2014-04-11 14:37:50 <vetch> kinlo, gavinandresen: if you are using the Windows version of the Bitcoin Core GUI without encryption, it is possible that your wallet could be compromised by clicking on a bitcoin: payment request link.
1245 2014-04-11 14:37:53 <wumpus> gavinandresen: so you end up with the system's openssl being used
1246 2014-04-11 14:38:12 <gavinandresen> wumpus: got it. So static openssl is just used for core functionality, QT dynamically loads system openssl and uses it....
1247 2014-04-11 14:38:15 <wumpus> gavinandresen: (in the case of payment requests, rpcssl would use the statically linked internal openssl)
1248 2014-04-11 14:38:19 <wumpus> gavinandresen: yep
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1250 2014-04-11 14:39:11 <vetch> kinlo: (I'm operating under the assumption that users don't need to know what private keys are, and probably don't care)
1251 2014-04-11 14:39:15 <kinlo> vetch: not your last version, it's unencrypted wallet, everybody beliefs that bitcoin works with encryption everywhere, so they will be put off by not specifying what is encrypted)
1252 2014-04-11 14:39:20 nsh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1253 2014-04-11 14:39:34 <vetch> I follow.
1254 2014-04-11 14:39:40 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1256 2014-04-11 14:39:52 <vetch> I just wanted to avoid using "wallet" twice in one sentence.
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1261 2014-04-11 14:40:26 <kinlo> also I would drop the "then" in line 28
1262 2014-04-11 14:40:28 <gavinandresen> vetch: ACK, updated
1263 2014-04-11 14:42:05 Guyver2 has joined
1264 2014-04-11 14:42:16 <vetch> kinlo: "If you are using the Windows version of the Bitcoin Core GUI without an encryption password, it is possible that your wallet could be compromised by clicking on a bitcoin: payment request link." < better?
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1266 2014-04-11 14:42:43 <kinlo> vetch: dunno, what's the menu item called to encrypt the wallet?
1267 2014-04-11 14:43:01 <wumpus> 'with encryption' sounds a bit vague to me, I'd leave 'wallet' in there
1268 2014-04-11 14:43:02 <vetch> not sure, I've never used the GUI
1269 2014-04-11 14:43:04 <kinlo> it needs to be worded exactly the same so people will know where to look wether they enabled it
1270 2014-04-11 14:43:15 <wumpus> or 'with wallet passphrasse'
1271 2014-04-11 14:43:19 <kinlo> I don't even have bitcoin core installed on this laptop
1272 2014-04-11 14:43:35 nexes has joined
1273 2014-04-11 14:43:36 <vetch> "If you are using the Windows version of the Bitcoin Core GUI without a wallet passphrase, it is possible that your wallet could be compromised by clicking on a bitcoin: payment request link."
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1276 2014-04-11 14:44:54 <vetch> I agree with wumpus once I think about it, it makes more sense than the term "encryption" if users aren't used to it
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1278 2014-04-11 14:45:50 <Luke-Jr> warren: maybe the double OpenSSL is why Bitcoin Core used to use more memory on Fedora?
1279 2014-04-11 14:46:02 <sipa> i hope not
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1281 2014-04-11 14:46:32 <Luke-Jr> "no-password wallet"
1282 2014-04-11 14:46:50 <Luke-Jr> users know what passwords are (maybe passphrases too)
1283 2014-04-11 14:47:35 <gavinandresen> vetch: ACK, updated
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1286 2014-04-11 14:48:23 <kinlo> looks good to me now
1287 2014-04-11 14:48:56 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: only in the case of the gui though, bitcoind won't have a 'double openssl'
1288 2014-04-11 14:48:57 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ?
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1296 2014-04-11 14:55:16 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that would be some ridiculous amount of memory for openssl
1297 2014-04-11 14:55:26 TheSeven has joined
1298 2014-04-11 14:55:27 <sipa> (the difference was in the order of 100 MB, no?)
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1301 2014-04-11 14:57:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"Norton blocked an attack by: Attack: OpenSSL Hearbleed CVE-2014-0160 3"
1302 2014-04-11 14:57:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Over Tor, it looks like
1303 2014-04-11 14:58:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(through Vidalia, that is)
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1319 2014-04-11 15:08:20 <gavinandresen> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/375 <-- pull request for alert page on bitcoin.org
1320 2014-04-11 15:08:34 franco has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1321 2014-04-11 15:09:05 <vetch> gavinandresen: should the url on L11 be.. urlified?
1322 2014-04-11 15:09:22 lclc_ has left ("Konversation terminated!")
1323 2014-04-11 15:10:02 <gavinandresen> vetch: meh. I suppose...
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1327 2014-04-11 15:11:35 <kinlo> it's ok like this I think
1328 2014-04-11 15:12:41 <vetch> gavinandresen: passes a pre-flight check for me.
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1330 2014-04-11 15:13:56 <shesek> I wonder how efficient is heardbleed for DDOS amplification, relative to NTP and DNS
1331 2014-04-11 15:14:23 <kinlo> shesek: totally not efficient, you need a full tcp session to do anything
1332 2014-04-11 15:14:30 <kinlo> so no spoofing so no ddos
1333 2014-04-11 15:14:54 <kinlo> both ntp and dns are udp, very easy to spoof, no session to build up
1334 2014-04-11 15:15:19 <vetch> shesek: amplification requires something you only need to do a half handshake for, as it relies on spoofing the source IP to send a substantially large response to the victim.
1335 2014-04-11 15:15:52 <shesek> isn't the heartbeat primarily meant to be used on top of udp?
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1337 2014-04-11 15:16:28 <shesek> with DTLS
1338 2014-04-11 15:16:40 <kinlo> tls is tcp only
1339 2014-04-11 15:16:57 <kinlo> also most tcp protocols have a heatbeat system
1340 2014-04-11 15:17:05 <kinlo> even irc does :)
1341 2014-04-11 15:17:42 <shesek> yeah... its ping/pong
1342 2014-04-11 15:17:46 <vetch> shesek: from a quick look at the RFC, it looks like you have to have already done a handshake
1343 2014-04-11 15:17:59 <vetch> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6520#section-3
1344 2014-04-11 15:18:01 <kinlo> not just ping pong, it also sends arbitrary data and returns that
1345 2014-04-11 15:18:03 <shesek> vetch, you mean for TLS or for DLTS?
1346 2014-04-11 15:18:06 <kinlo> just like tls does
1347 2014-04-11 15:18:08 <kenrestivo> is there a guide/technique for cross-compiling bitcoind for windows?
1348 2014-04-11 15:18:17 <shesek> * DTLS
1349 2014-04-11 15:18:29 <kinlo> kenrestivo: there is a good document that explains gitian, you want to look at that
1350 2014-04-11 15:19:01 <vetch> shesek: that section seems to mention both
1351 2014-04-11 15:19:29 <kinlo> kenrestivo: read https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/gitian-building.md
1352 2014-04-11 15:19:47 <vetch> "However, a HeartbeatRequest message SHOULD NOT be sent during handshakes." ... "The receiving peer SHOULD discard the message silently, if it arrives during the handshake. "
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1354 2014-04-11 15:20:42 <olalonde> anyone knows how big is the testnet blockchain?
1355 2014-04-11 15:21:07 <kenrestivo> kinlo: thx
1356 2014-04-11 15:21:33 <vetch> olalonde: sec.
1357 2014-04-11 15:22:00 <vetch> 1.22GB
1358 2014-04-11 15:22:01 <shesek> mine is about 0.8gb
1359 2014-04-11 15:22:04 Gyps has joined
1360 2014-04-11 15:22:06 <shesek> from a week or two ago
1361 2014-04-11 15:22:13 <olalonde> makes sense , thanks :)
1362 2014-04-11 15:22:23 Belxjander has joined
1363 2014-04-11 15:22:28 <vetch> shesek: yeah, since then someone spammed an absolute tonne of 1MB blocks filled with crap
1364 2014-04-11 15:22:52 <olalonde> is there any light/web wallet that works with testnet?
1365 2014-04-11 15:23:17 <vetch> olalonde: https://tpfaucet.appspot.com/
1366 2014-04-11 15:23:20 <vetch> bottom of the page.
1367 2014-04-11 15:23:35 <olalonde> thx
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1369 2014-04-11 15:24:50 <vetch> I'm sorely tempted to fork testnet3 from a few weeks back and remove the hundreds of megabytes of useless blocks.
1370 2014-04-11 15:25:18 <vetch> I tried and failed at that, actually.
1371 2014-04-11 15:25:35 <shesek> if you can get a few ASICs to mine on testnet, you can probably undo that mess
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1373 2014-04-11 15:26:30 <vetch> I was prepared with that actually, I was ready to go back to block 200,000 but had trouble getting my client to properly blacklist and reorganise back that far.
1374 2014-04-11 15:27:41 Milanito has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1375 2014-04-11 15:27:59 <gavinandresen> https://bitcoin.org/heartbleed is up
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1377 2014-04-11 15:28:46 <aschildbach_> gavinandresen: can we include information for other wallets?
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1380 2014-04-11 15:31:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|18:16:40 <kenrestivo> is there a guide/technique for cross-compiling bitcoind for windows? <-- if you can read bash, read the contrib/gitian-descriptors/*win.yml files
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1382 2014-04-11 15:32:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gavinandresen: btw, is there something somewhere detailing how alerts are created and sent into the network?
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1388 2014-04-11 15:34:22 <gavinandresen> aschildbach_: sure, submit a pull request at the bitcoin.org repo that adds info for other wallets to the alert page.
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1390 2014-04-11 15:34:46 <aschildbach_> gavinandresen: My problem is I'm not so good at English.
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1392 2014-04-11 15:34:56 <gavinandresen> michagogo|cloud: yes, the core developers with push access to the repo all have instructions on how to create and send alerts
1393 2014-04-11 15:35:27 <gavinandresen> aschildbach_: people here can help you wordsmith
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1395 2014-04-11 15:39:05 <olalonde> TIL coinbase transactions can be associated to multiple blocks
1396 2014-04-11 15:39:59 <olalonde> https://blockchain.info/tx/e3bf3d07d4b0375638d5f1db5255fe07ba2c4cb067cd81b84ee974b6585fb468
1397 2014-04-11 15:40:42 <olalonde> or, coinbase transaction hashes are not unique
1398 2014-04-11 15:40:53 aynstein has left ("Raed erorr: Connetcion reset by beer")
1399 2014-04-11 15:41:05 <olalonde> does that make the reward unspendable or something?
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1403 2014-04-11 15:43:00 <aschildbach_> ok, submitted a pull: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/376
1404 2014-04-11 15:46:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gavinandresen: oh, it's non-public?
1405 2014-04-11 15:48:30 <gavinandresen> michagogo|cloud: yes, although the code could (probably should) be cleaned up and put into the source tree, just without the private keys needed to do the signing.
1406 2014-04-11 15:48:52 sontol has joined
1407 2014-04-11 15:49:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, what do altcoins do? Just figure out how to make their own generator?
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1409 2014-04-11 15:50:36 <gavinandresen> michagogo|cloud: I think I posted the alert generating code (without the private keys) in the past. Don't remember when or where, though.
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1422 2014-04-11 16:01:06 <vetch> michagogo|cloud: most of them don't. they basically don't ever change the alert key.
1423 2014-04-11 16:01:17 <wumpus> it's not public (the code is very simple though, and entirely makes use of code which IS in the reposity)
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1465 2014-04-11 16:22:23 <gavinandresen> saivann: ping
1466 2014-04-11 16:22:30 <saivann> gavinandresen: pong
1467 2014-04-11 16:22:44 <gavinandresen> saivann: is there an easy way to get https://www.bitcoin.org/heartbleed/ and https://www.bitcoin.org/heartbleed to go to the same page?
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1469 2014-04-11 16:23:41 <gavinandresen> wumpus: fixed alert message made it to me
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1472 2014-04-11 16:24:53 <saivann> gavinandresen: I'll fix this with a temporary workaround
1473 2014-04-11 16:25:19 <wumpus> great!
1474 2014-04-11 16:26:03 <gavinandresen> saivann: thanks, we didn't notice the trailing slash on the first version of the alert message
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1532 2014-04-11 17:15:16 <olalonde> does BlueMattBot PM everyone in this channel?
1533 2014-04-11 17:15:53 <BlueMatt> It shouldn't...
1534 2014-04-11 17:15:59 <vetch> not I.
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1536 2014-04-11 17:17:00 <BlueMatt> It pings those who it thinks have pushed to the core client and made it fail
1537 2014-04-11 17:17:05 <olalonde> BlueMattBot: Build Bitcoin is STILL FAILING: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/623/
1538 2014-04-11 17:17:05 <BlueMattBot> olalonde you may not issue bot commands in this chat!
1539 2014-04-11 17:17:35 <olalonde> my commit got merged recently but it was just a change to a .md file
1540 2014-04-11 17:18:56 <BlueMatt> Jenkins seems very broken but that part does seem to be working
1541 2014-04-11 17:19:10 <BlueMatt> (Why is it not posting those messages in here?)
1542 2014-04-11 17:19:25 <olalonde> oh right.. just noticed my commit was in this build
1543 2014-04-11 17:21:35 <olalonde> have you guys considered travis-ci?
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1563 2014-04-11 17:35:32 <GAit> is there a list of testnet clients? all i found was faucet and explorers on bitcoin.it/wiki/Testnet
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1572 2014-04-11 17:38:53 <vetch> clients?
1573 2014-04-11 17:39:13 <vetch> Electrum doesn't support testnet, Armory does, don't know about Multibit
1574 2014-04-11 17:39:34 <sipa> bitcoin wallet for android does
1575 2014-04-11 17:39:39 <sipa> (in a separate build)
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1579 2014-04-11 17:41:40 <GAit> ok so there is no separate list on the wiki. Is testnet meant to be used much as some sort of UAT environment?
1580 2014-04-11 17:42:54 <vetch> it's the testnet. meant for testing with play money.
1581 2014-04-11 17:43:10 <vetch> if you want to test your POS, or play with raw transactions, or try to break something, that's where you go.
1582 2014-04-11 17:43:12 <GAit> yeah i'm just surprised is not used as much by end user for trying out things
1583 2014-04-11 17:43:21 <vetch> it's not for end users
1584 2014-04-11 17:43:49 <GAit> is it bad if enduser use it for playing out with some bitcoin features from a downstream wallet?
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1587 2014-04-11 17:44:12 <vetch> no, but the user needs to understand that testnet3 is often very weird
1588 2014-04-11 17:44:40 <vetch> because you know, people are testing things. it's not really user friendly.
1589 2014-04-11 17:44:46 <gmaxwell> vetch: weird sounds good for playing around though.
1590 2014-04-11 17:45:01 <GAit> yeah i can imagine difficulty moving too much high and up
1591 2014-04-11 17:45:11 <GAit> s/up/down
1592 2014-04-11 17:45:40 <vetch> GAit: well, if a user was testing a wallet app yesterday they would have found that all their funds disappeared and reappeared over and over and I forked the chain. if they didn't know what it was for they might attribute that to the wallet.
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1594 2014-04-11 17:46:09 <GAit> vetch: yeah that sounds bad and not good for uat but great for dev/testing
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1596 2014-04-11 17:46:28 <vetch> it's great for testing. got to know your code can handle reorganisations ;)
1597 2014-04-11 17:46:35 <GAit> yep
1598 2014-04-11 17:46:44 <rnicoll> very random question; is anyone trying to build up a history of cryptocurrencies? It feels like there's a lot of day to day stuff that risks being lost, and may be useful later....
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1601 2014-04-11 17:46:59 <vetch> GAit: in this instance we learnt that Bitpay's insight sort of doesn't like them very much
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1603 2014-04-11 17:47:44 <GAit> vetch: yeah we were playing with insight, needs some heavy tweaking, we had some ideas but we are low on resources
1604 2014-04-11 17:48:18 <gmaxwell> well I think testnet3 is fine for end users too, so long as you don't mind your coins becoming unconfirmed surprisingly sometimes. :)
1605 2014-04-11 17:48:25 <GAit> (our idea was releated to performance not to reorg)
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1607 2014-04-11 17:48:56 <GAit> gmaxwell: maybe wallets should just tell endusers the network is a bit more, happy :)
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1609 2014-04-11 17:49:19 <vetch> oh they do, my reorgs triggered the reference client to display big annoying warnings
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1613 2014-04-11 17:49:54 <vetch> if you were running an exchange on testnet the alert triggering would hopefully have put the exchange into safe mode.
1614 2014-04-11 17:50:31 <vetch> fingers crossed people do that on mainnet. any alert should be cause to lock up your service until you can investigate.
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1616 2014-04-11 17:50:53 <vetch> (bet nobody does)
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1619 2014-04-11 17:51:56 <GAit> as the network grows, it is reasonable to assume that less than 6 will be considered very secure for large amounts too?
1620 2014-04-11 17:52:06 <GAit> confirmations, i accidentally a word there
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1622 2014-04-11 17:52:19 <gmaxwell> GAit: I don't think its a safe assumption currently, for large amounts.
1623 2014-04-11 17:52:32 <GAit> gmaxwell: do you have some data?
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1625 2014-04-11 17:53:22 <sipa> the calculation for "6 confirmations is safe" depends on which % of the network you assume the attacker controls
1626 2014-04-11 17:53:33 <gmaxwell> GAit: I mean, mix one part http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/top.php (GHash.io has 25%) with one part http://people.xiph.org/~greg/attack_success.html (25% can reorg 6 blocks with a 5% success rate)
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1628 2014-04-11 17:54:10 <gmaxwell> So someone who compromises a single host can either steal its blocks or reorg, and ... well then you can make guesses about how much they could be attacking with that reorg.
1629 2014-04-11 17:55:56 <sipa> the question is really which amounts will incentive miners (or people able to attack miners) to work on attacking chains
1630 2014-04-11 17:56:13 <sipa> and it's not just your transaction that count- it's all of them that end up in a block
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1632 2014-04-11 17:56:54 <GAit> but this sounds like you need to watch the top pools hash rates to determine how many confirmations you need
1633 2014-04-11 17:56:59 <gmaxwell> If you make a conservative assumption you'd assume that all txn in a block are theft. But sadly this results in really enormous block counts for security.
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1635 2014-04-11 17:57:41 <gmaxwell> GAit: the "watch hashrate" thing, however, is just a lower bound... since people can have more hashrate than you see since their disclosure of their identity is completely optional.
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1637 2014-04-11 17:58:12 <GAit> yes, for all we know there's already someone with 51%
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1639 2014-04-11 17:58:35 <GAit> i always thought this was a weak and unaccountable point of btc
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1653 2014-04-11 18:03:32 <GAit> has anyone reviewed BRIC? Also, isn't this an overload on the acryonim in ecomonics?
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1707 2014-04-11 18:55:44 <shesek> does anyone know of one of the developers from cryptocoinjs happens to hang on IRC?
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1749 2014-04-11 19:39:53 <olalonde> anyone recently downloaded the block chain? wondering how long it took (a ballpark estimate would be good)
1750 2014-04-11 19:40:15 <sipa> depends mostly on how lucky you are in picking peers
1751 2014-04-11 19:40:26 <sipa> and less peers results in less stalling
1752 2014-04-11 19:40:37 <sipa> (as long as there is one, of course)
1753 2014-04-11 19:40:59 <sipa> syncing from a fast local peer using -connect is a few hours i think
1754 2014-04-11 19:41:28 <vetch> olalonde: using a bootstrap.dat is a lot, lot faster
1755 2014-04-11 19:41:37 <olalonde> yes.. assuming a fast local peer
1756 2014-04-11 19:41:50 <sipa> yes, but the delay is not caused by bandwidth
1757 2014-04-11 19:42:12 <sipa> just by the sync mechanism getting confused
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1762 2014-04-11 19:53:13 <draaaa> if i recall, about 2 days, new scientific linux instalation about 1 month ago ... to download full chain
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1767 2014-04-11 19:54:06 <draaaa> ... and yes old comp, Pentium4
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1771 2014-04-11 19:57:05 <olalonde> draaaa: thanks
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1773 2014-04-11 19:58:49 <olalonde> what data structure does bitcoin-core use for its indexes? any idea?
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1775 2014-04-11 19:59:34 <sipa> olalonde: CBlockIndex for block indexes
1776 2014-04-11 19:59:41 <sipa> olalonde: that's the only in-memory index
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1779 2014-04-11 20:00:00 <sipa> olalonde: well, a stl map from block hashes to CBlockIndex objects
1780 2014-04-11 20:00:19 <sipa> there's an option on-disk index for transactions, but it's never kept in memory
1781 2014-04-11 20:00:23 <sipa> so it's only in leveldb
1782 2014-04-11 20:00:54 <olalonde> ok
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1861 2014-04-11 22:22:30 <ProfMac> I am reading source to understand the client. My first task is to understand the source code related to sending a block out to the peers on the network. I started with Submitblock on git, and I have looked at https://dev.visucore.com/bitcoin/doxygen. Hearn told me "ProfMac: push_inventory puts the CInv into a queue for the CPeer" but I have not made progress looking for that. I would appreciate any more hints anyone can shar
1862 2014-04-11 22:23:06 <ProfMac> looking for CPeer, that is.
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1909 2014-04-11 23:17:26 <coolblade> In this calculator https://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator, what is a TH/s? I thought it would have been thz e.g 1 000 000 000 000 attempts/second but that doesn't seem to be the case
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1911 2014-04-11 23:17:56 <gmaxwell> coolblade: #bitcoin
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1927 2014-04-11 23:36:40 <EagleTM> hm bitcoin.org doesn
1928 2014-04-11 23:37:16 <EagleTM> hm wget doesn't like bitcoin.org's redirect when fetching binaries with https://
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