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   2 2014-04-13 00:00:07 <warren> Can we push a tag to master?  the most recent tag in master is 0.9.0rc2, so that appears in builds
   3 2014-04-13 00:01:17 <warren> also clientversion.h has 0.9.0.99, probably not intended?
   4 2014-04-13 00:01:44 <warren> share/setup.nsi contains 0.9.99
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   8 2014-04-13 00:02:16 <warren> eh, making a PR to make them all 0.9.1.99
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  11 2014-04-13 00:05:03 <warren> ls
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  21 2014-04-13 00:08:31 <GAit> gmaxwell: in my experience hand writing the mnemonics is painful and error prone. Both 12 and 24, although 24 is double the pain and double the error rate :) There's issues with some printers as they keep copies making it also non viable generally IMHO. In my view some hardware device with nfc can backup to an nfc card and then be used.
  22 2014-04-13 00:10:39 <gmaxwell> sipa: so one argument I have against your otherwise awesome scheme is that there is no polynomial time decoder for near misses. If instead we use an error correcting code as the 'checksum' then there is a fast decoder to find likely matches.
  23 2014-04-13 00:14:30 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4049  Please make the versions consistent and manually apply a matching tag.
  24 2014-04-13 00:15:23 <gmaxwell> I really don't like that.
  25 2014-04-13 00:15:33 <warren> like what?
  26 2014-04-13 00:15:59 <warren> If you build from master right now, it calls itself "0.9.2rc2-hash"
  27 2014-04-13 00:16:05 <warren> I mean
  28 2014-04-13 00:16:08 <warren> 0.9.0rc2-hash
  29 2014-04-13 00:16:10 <gmaxwell> adding incorrect tags to github because you find the automatically generated IDs confusing.
  30 2014-04-13 00:16:26 <gmaxwell> it should bee called tag-commits-hash, no?
  31 2014-04-13 00:16:53 <warren> I'm making nightly gitian builds directly from master. without a new tag those builds will call itself 0.9.0rc2-hash"
  32 2014-04-13 00:16:57 <sipa> maybe we need to have better automatically generated version strings
  33 2014-04-13 00:17:07 <warren> sure, come up with something better
  34 2014-04-13 00:17:11 <warren> meanwhile this commit works
  35 2014-04-13 00:17:21 <sipa> as this does come up frequently, and even if unambiguous (because of the number of commits), it is certainly confusing
  36 2014-04-13 00:17:31 <rnicoll> quick aside; do I take it the position on UI for multisig is more or less whenever someone/I write it?
  37 2014-04-13 00:18:04 <warren> sipa: do you have something better in mind?
  38 2014-04-13 00:18:38 <sipa> if we're going to consistency tag pre-release version numbers in clientversion.h, we could just use <version from clientversion>-commits-hash
  39 2014-04-13 00:18:57 <warren> I agree, who came up with latest git tag?
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  41 2014-04-13 00:19:12 <gmaxwell> it's a norm in autotagging git projects.
  42 2014-04-13 00:19:27 <gmaxwell> it's what git calls the release with describe.
  43 2014-04-13 00:19:30 <sipa> it's what 'git describe' does
  44 2014-04-13 00:19:31 <gmaxwell> s/release/commit/
  45 2014-04-13 00:19:51 <gmaxwell> 'this tag, plus this many commits, at hash x
  46 2014-04-13 00:19:55 <warren> ok, do we want to depart from git describe?
  47 2014-04-13 00:20:24 <sipa> if we plan to consistently put pre-release version numbers in clientversion.h, i say yes
  48 2014-04-13 00:20:42 <warren> git describe is quite handy looking
  49 2014-04-13 00:20:48 <gmaxwell> whatever we do it should not involve adding extra tags. :) so long as it doesn't do that and it allows identifying the specific code in question I don't care.
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  54 2014-04-13 00:32:19 <warren> gmaxwell: can we at least update the clientversion.h?
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  56 2014-04-13 00:33:25 <sipa> warren: ack clientversion.h update
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 153 2014-04-13 03:16:56 <daemon> hey all from: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification '4	 version	 int32_t	 Identifies protocol version being used by the node' for the start of the initial handshake, how do I find out the current protocol version in use by the network, and where is it documented
 154 2014-04-13 03:17:19 <daemon> or is the wiki page the documentation base
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 591 2014-04-13 05:27:27 <jgarzik> Thank you, gribble.
 592 2014-04-13 05:29:41 <Luke-Jr> is freenode working again?
 593 2014-04-13 05:30:00 <vetch> yup
 594 2014-04-13 05:32:32 <[\\\]> yeah
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 634 2014-04-13 05:33:25 <[\\\]> one more server to go
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 766 2014-04-13 07:52:04 <Guest56534> hum
 767 2014-04-13 07:52:08 Guest56534 is now known as jgarzik_
 768 2014-04-13 07:52:15 <jgarzik_> I wonder if p2pool works over Tor
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 771 2014-04-13 07:53:29 <vetch> probably not optimally, you'd inevitably end up with a much higher stale rate
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 773 2014-04-13 07:54:12 <vetch> with the 30 second block time most of your shares would end up stale due to latency
 774 2014-04-13 07:54:25 <vetch> most, read an unacceptably high percentage
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 779 2014-04-13 07:58:27 <sipa> which - if you don't run bitcoin itself over tor - doesn't change expected payout
 780 2014-04-13 07:58:32 <sipa> just variance
 781 2014-04-13 07:59:36 <vetch> if your local stale p2pool shares are very high you would get a lower payout, wouldn't you?
 782 2014-04-13 07:59:50 <sipa> no
 783 2014-04-13 08:00:15 <sipa> a stale p2pool share can still be a valid bitcoin block
 784 2014-04-13 08:00:41 <vetch> but a stale p2pool share won't pay out to you, so you lose income but the p2pool as a whole doesn't
 785 2014-04-13 08:01:10 <sipa> yes it does payout to you, as the paying is done by bitcoin
 786 2014-04-13 08:01:41 <vetch> if you don't have a valid share in the main p2pool chain, you don't get a p2pool payout when p2pool solves a block
 787 2014-04-13 08:01:53 tarantillo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 788 2014-04-13 08:01:58 <sipa> hmm
 789 2014-04-13 08:02:04 <sipa> right
 790 2014-04-13 08:02:09 <warren> jgarzik_: ping
 791 2014-04-13 08:02:11 tarantillo_ has joined
 792 2014-04-13 08:02:34 <jgarzik_> warren, pong
 793 2014-04-13 08:02:39 <vetch> so mining over p2pool would get you comparatively lower payouts, but the p2pool network itself wouldn't be affected.
 794 2014-04-13 08:02:52 <sipa> vetch: you're right
 795 2014-04-13 08:04:28 Aido_ is now known as Aido
 796 2014-04-13 08:04:37 <jgarzik_> I always thought p2pool should increase that 30 seconds to something longer
 797 2014-04-13 08:04:49 <gmaxwell> jgarzik_: it was 10 seconds and it was increased to 30 seconds.
 798 2014-04-13 08:05:13 OneFixt has joined
 799 2014-04-13 08:05:52 <vetch> jgarzik_: if it's too high you end up with impossibly difficult shares and massive variance as a result
 800 2014-04-13 08:06:39 <gmaxwell> vetch: I get about 98% efficiency when running over tor, FWIW.
 801 2014-04-13 08:06:49 <vetch> even now the p2pool share difficulty is 508,000. if the pool was a bigger portion of the network it would be in the tens millions.
 802 2014-04-13 08:06:50 <gmaxwell> (running p2pool over tor)
 803 2014-04-13 08:07:06 <vetch> gmaxwell: that's better than I would have expected, tor latencies are usually in seconds.
 804 2014-04-13 08:07:21 <jgarzik_> gmaxwell, well that answers the original question, thanks :)
 805 2014-04-13 08:07:26 <vetch> exiting connections I mean.
 806 2014-04-13 08:07:51 <jgarzik_> Running bitcoind over Tor, it always seems to connect to non-onion nodes
 807 2014-04-13 08:08:04 <jgarzik_> never seems to discover .onion on its own, here, without addnode.
 808 2014-04-13 08:08:11 <vetch> onlynet=tor
 809 2014-04-13 08:08:14 <gmaxwell> vetch: my laptop bitcoin node has 8 tor peers right now, only one of them has a rtt over 1.1 seconds.
 810 2014-04-13 08:08:37 <vetch> gmaxwell: are they internally routed or exiting though?
 811 2014-04-13 08:08:45 <jgarzik_> Is there a risk in talking to outside nodes over Tor?
 812 2014-04-13 08:08:46 <gmaxwell> jgarzik_: if it can connect to non-tor nodes it will only connect to one onion node because it regard all onion as the same network group.
 813 2014-04-13 08:08:52 <jgarzik_> I don't want to turn that off...
 814 2014-04-13 08:09:07 <gmaxwell> although if you enable inbound other onion nodes will connect in.
 815 2014-04-13 08:09:15 <vetch> jgarzik_: not really, it's just heavier on the tor network and likely slower.
 816 2014-04-13 08:09:20 <jgarzik_> I am happy to have exit nodes talk to non-onion P2P nodes
 817 2014-04-13 08:09:30 <gmaxwell> vetch: internally, of course.
 818 2014-04-13 08:09:53 <vetch> gmaxwell: yeah, I think if they were exiting the round trip time would be 3s+
 819 2014-04-13 08:10:04 <gmaxwell> jgarzik_: exit nodes can dork with the traffic but there isn't any major risk beyond just being on an insecured network generally.
 820 2014-04-13 08:10:07 <jgarzik_> So I suppose it boils down to:   bitcoind should prefer more .onion nodes
 821 2014-04-13 08:10:08 <jgarzik_> :)
 822 2014-04-13 08:10:21 <gmaxwell> vetch: maybe, but it doesn't matter because why would you talk to exited nodes? :P
 823 2014-04-13 08:10:40 <gmaxwell> jgarzik_: we don't have any way to resist sybils on onion right now. Kind of an annoying wart.
 824 2014-04-13 08:10:59 <gmaxwell> at least IP addresses are somewhat limited supply, but people can make as many keys as they want.
 825 2014-04-13 08:11:04 <vetch> gmaxwell: bitcoind has to really be coerced into using onion nodes. unless you addnode it doesn't give a crap and talks to ipv4 peers.
 826 2014-04-13 08:11:33 ahf_ has quit (Quit: Bye)
 827 2014-04-13 08:11:35 <gmaxwell> vetch: outbound it will connect to at most one unless you set onlynet.
 828 2014-04-13 08:11:52 <vetch> because of sybil issues?
 829 2014-04-13 08:12:17 ahf has joined
 830 2014-04-13 08:12:25 <gmaxwell> vetch: we try to only connect to one host per netgroup (/16 for ipv4). Onion is seen as one netgroup (because one person with an address generator could be all the tor nodes).
 831 2014-04-13 08:12:40 <vetch> oh right, yep that makes sense.
 832 2014-04-13 08:12:42 <gmaxwell> It's not treated specially though, it's just how the netgroups are defined.
 833 2014-04-13 08:13:56 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 834 2014-04-13 08:14:07 <gmaxwell> once we get some peer rotation we could probably relax that netgroup limit so that it just preferred having netgroup diversity but didn't force it.
 835 2014-04-13 08:14:16 Luke-Jr has joined
 836 2014-04-13 08:14:26 <gmaxwell> e.g. drop redundant netgroups first.
 837 2014-04-13 08:15:25 <gmaxwell> interesting, my inbound seems to be broken
 838 2014-04-13 08:16:13 <warren> I'm submitting a pull request to change regtest's address versions
 839 2014-04-13 08:16:54 <gmaxwell> warren: why?
 840 2014-04-13 08:17:30 <gmaxwell> warren: you'll break pulltester, are you also going to submit patches to fix it?
 841 2014-04-13 08:18:07 <warren> damn
 842 2014-04-13 08:18:10 <sipa> gmaxwell: i think the onion space is divided into 4 "net groups"
 843 2014-04-13 08:18:10 <warren> I guess I will need to
 844 2014-04-13 08:18:13 <sipa> gmaxwell: not one
 845 2014-04-13 08:18:16 <warren> jgarzik_: crap, pulltester uses it
 846 2014-04-13 08:18:39 <gmaxwell> warren: thats what the feature is intended for.
 847 2014-04-13 08:19:04 <jgarzik_> alas
 848 2014-04-13 08:19:19 <jgarzik_> makes it more difficult to deduce network from address version
 849 2014-04-13 08:19:33 <warren> jgarzik_: so uh... if we're going to make bitcore/insight support regtest we need to change a bunch of stuff
 850 2014-04-13 08:19:33 <jgarzik_> regtest has different pchMessageStart but not address versions
 851 2014-04-13 08:20:06 warren has left ("Leaving")
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 853 2014-04-13 08:20:10 <warren> oops
 854 2014-04-13 08:20:11 <sipa> regtest isn't really intended to be used for more than direct testing
 855 2014-04-13 08:20:25 <jgarzik_> meh...  recompiling openssl is for the birds.  goodbye fedora.
 856 2014-04-13 08:20:49 <sipa> i don't object to a separate address space for regtest, but it seems like you really want testnet?
 857 2014-04-13 08:20:53 <gmaxwell> Lets merge sipa's ecc code. :)
 858 2014-04-13 08:21:03 <jgarzik_> +1
 859 2014-04-13 08:21:05 <warren> now?
 860 2014-04-13 08:21:20 <vetch> now that's a pull I'll be testing.
 861 2014-04-13 08:21:23 <jgarzik_> the plan was always to merge default-disabled at first IIUC
 862 2014-04-13 08:21:29 <sipa> jgarzik_: indeed
 863 2014-04-13 08:21:37 <sipa> and i don't expect the default to be changed quickly
 864 2014-04-13 08:21:47 <jgarzik_> but it sure would be nice on Fedora...
 865 2014-04-13 08:21:50 <gmaxwell> merging it now will make life much easier on fedora. :P
 866 2014-04-13 08:22:03 <warren> DO IT
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 869 2014-04-13 08:23:47 <gmaxwell> I guess it'll use the git subdohicky stuff that the leveldb uses?
 870 2014-04-13 08:23:56 <sipa> yup
 871 2014-04-13 08:23:57 <jgarzik_> needs configure integration
 872 2014-04-13 08:24:06 <sipa> jgarzik_: already worked on that
 873 2014-04-13 08:24:09 <jgarzik_> (and autotools does support sub-configure)
 874 2014-04-13 08:24:23 <sipa> jgarzik_: but there's an ugly bug with CFLAGS not being passed or something
 875 2014-04-13 08:24:30 <sipa> which coryfields was going to look into
 876 2014-04-13 08:24:45 <sipa> i have the bitcoin side of the code ready
 877 2014-04-13 08:25:20 <jgarzik_> another option is direct integration
 878 2014-04-13 08:25:45 <sipa> ?
 879 2014-04-13 08:25:59 <gmaxwell> autotools directly may be less work to get right.
 880 2014-04-13 08:26:09 <sipa> you mean without its own configure? preferably not
 881 2014-04-13 08:26:17 <jgarzik_> sipa, updating bitcoin's configure.ac, without a separate sub-configure
 882 2014-04-13 08:26:20 <sipa> it needs to detect gmp/openssl/yasm/...
 883 2014-04-13 08:26:25 <gmaxwell> Though secp256k1 doesn't have an utterly trivial configure due to arm.
 884 2014-04-13 08:26:26 <gmaxwell> er asm
 885 2014-04-13 08:26:30 <jgarzik_> multiple configures is more complicated
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 887 2014-04-13 08:26:54 <sipa> yes, but i like to keep libsecp256k1 as a separately-usable library
 888 2014-04-13 08:26:59 <jgarzik_> sipa, so?  :)  worst case it pointlessly slows down peoples configure by a second or two
 889 2014-04-13 08:27:08 <warren> can't you have two configure's?
 890 2014-04-13 08:27:15 <maaku> better to have its own configure so as to be separately-usable
 891 2014-04-13 08:27:34 <gmaxwell> sipa: it can be seperately usable but still use one configure. e.g. just not using the nested one in bitcoin, though thats two things to maintain.
 892 2014-04-13 08:27:36 <sipa> it needs to have its own configure, and i prefer not to need to duplicate that logic in bitcoin's
 893 2014-04-13 08:27:43 <gmaxwell> right.
 894 2014-04-13 08:27:45 <jgarzik_> yes.  ideal == more complicated.  direct == easier to debug and get working correctly.
 895 2014-04-13 08:28:02 <gmaxwell> how does leveldb work?
 896 2014-04-13 08:28:20 <gmaxwell> (however it works, it works well enough that have no idea how it works— always a good sign)
 897 2014-04-13 08:28:23 <maaku> implementing --with-secp256k1=... isn't that complicated, no?
 898 2014-04-13 08:28:43 <maaku> i've done that for other projects, and I presume that's already implemented for leveldb
 899 2014-04-13 08:28:56 * jgarzik_ goes to look and see what can be done in parallel
 900 2014-04-13 08:29:06 <jgarzik_> perhaps can have cake & eat too
 901 2014-04-13 08:29:32 <sipa> jgarzik_: go look at my libsecp branch
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 903 2014-04-13 08:29:51 HANTI is now known as hanti
 904 2014-04-13 08:30:02 <sipa> it doesn't have the bitcoin integration (which is in the secp256k1 branch, and outdated), but there's a configure problem there still (which cory was going to look at soon)
 905 2014-04-13 08:30:23 <jcorgan> please make sure libsecp256k1 can support vpath build, we dont want two things to have to go back and later fix when we want that
 906 2014-04-13 08:30:45 <gmaxwell> other fun projects: go find the last openssl bignum code in bitcoin so we'll be able to build without it. :P
 907 2014-04-13 08:31:30 <gmaxwell> oh there may be none left with the base58 and script changes.
 908 2014-04-13 08:31:36 <jgarzik_> I don't see anything in secp/Makefile.am that prevents a higher level configure.ac/Makefile stack from directly referencing it.  The lib can have its own configure.ac, which is ignored when a higher level configure.ac is used.
 909 2014-04-13 08:32:11 <gmaxwell> oh the difficulty stuff.
 910 2014-04-13 08:32:36 <jgarzik_> gmaxwell, last time you mentioned that it was concluded that you inevitably need -some- bignum implementation of some sort, always?
 911 2014-04-13 08:33:02 <gmaxwell> jgarzik_: a uint256 is fine for difficulty.
 912 2014-04-13 08:33:33 <gmaxwell> jgarzik_: the asm detection stuff could be moved into an m4 file and invoked from the top configure.ac too so that stuff wouldn't even need to be duplicated.
 913 2014-04-13 08:33:56 <warren> gmaxwell: eh, what to do about PP?
 914 2014-04-13 08:34:06 <jgarzik_> I also messed around with having separate types for uint256 uses versus opaque-hash uses
 915 2014-04-13 08:34:19 <gmaxwell> warren: no-openssl builds would be daemon only. No biggie, and a nice first step.
 916 2014-04-13 08:34:29 <jgarzik_> gmaxwell, indeed
 917 2014-04-13 08:35:05 <gmaxwell> warren: requires turning off the rpcssl, and while I'd really strongly prefer that we promote stunnel for that, I don't think we're going to rip out that functionality right away.
 918 2014-04-13 08:35:41 <vetch> does *anybody* use rpcssl?
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 920 2014-04-13 08:35:58 <vetch> the only use case for it sounds foolish.
 921 2014-04-13 08:36:09 <netg_> hu?
 922 2014-04-13 08:36:29 <gmaxwell> people have used it in the past. I don't know if it's widely used. It's not an unreasonable thing to use on a lan, for example.
 923 2014-04-13 08:36:40 <dizko> would my bitcoind data files (other than wallet) become corrupted by doing something like an rsync while the daemon is running?  if so is ther any way to imrpove this (ie getting only certain files)
 924 2014-04-13 08:36:46 <gmaxwell> And arguably better than having no cryptographic security on the rpc in that case... except for the cruddyness of TLS.
 925 2014-04-13 08:37:06 <jgarzik_> well:  rpcssl is foolish.  http basic auth is foolish.  rpc password timing defense code is foolish.
 926 2014-04-13 08:37:09 <jgarzik_> fools rush in.
 927 2014-04-13 08:37:14 <gmaxwell> dizko: you absolutely cannot successfully copy a running node. It's improved completely by shutting down first. :)
 928 2014-04-13 08:37:29 <vetch> gmaxwell: surely a tunnel would be a lot better solution. you've most certainly got a shell on the same box anyway.
 929 2014-04-13 08:37:49 <jgarzik_> vetch, tunnel == more pieces to setup, more pieces to break.
 930 2014-04-13 08:37:55 <dizko> gmaxwell, unfortunate.  im running my production daemon into memory...be nice not to have to run a separate system to keep periodic blockchain backups
 931 2014-04-13 08:38:07 <jgarzik_> again better && more complicated go hand in hand.
 932 2014-04-13 08:38:28 <vetch> jgarzik_: rpcssl on an exposed port = more attack surface
 933 2014-04-13 08:38:45 <jgarzik_> vetch, yes, see "...foolish" in scrollback
 934 2014-04-13 08:39:01 <vetch> jgarzik_: apologies.
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 936 2014-04-13 08:40:10 <warren> jgarzik_: what should we do about regtest and bitcore/insight?
 937 2014-04-13 08:40:15 <gmaxwell> vetch: I don't think there is any real disagreement on what ideal is, but ideal is complicated. Builtin crypto is a nice improvement, but sadly tls is pretty much a bigger attack surface than the entire bitcoin protocol. So I've never personally considered it a good tradeoff. (I like stunnel better because it at least puts it in another process)
 938 2014-04-13 08:40:28 anton000 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 939 2014-04-13 08:40:36 <dizko> gmaxwell: is there anything in the roadmap like an option to use way more memory?  seems cheaper to throw memory at it than faster disk i/o
 940 2014-04-13 08:40:41 <dizko> considering its not -that big-
 941 2014-04-13 08:41:09 <warren> how does "more memory" help?
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 943 2014-04-13 08:41:28 <dizko> well, i need to confirm, but i think im still i/o bound despite being on ssd
 944 2014-04-13 08:41:55 <vetch> dizko: presumably if you've enough there's nothing stopping you putting the whole datadir in memory if you're not using the wallet.
 945 2014-04-13 08:41:56 <dizko> unless there are only a couple of active threads scalable in bitcoind?   it uses about 2 cores, and 100% of the disk io
 946 2014-04-13 08:42:05 <netg_> imho pointless discussion, because there are (and will be more in future) enough valid use cases for rpcssl
 947 2014-04-13 08:42:34 <dizko> vetch: yea thats my plan, i was just looking for a more elegant way to keep the on-dick cache of the blockchain more available vs maintaining a separate system to make a bootstrap
 948 2014-04-13 08:42:43 <vetch> netg_: like what exactly? every use case can be solved with external software.
 949 2014-04-13 08:43:08 <dizko> haha on dick-cache is a sweet typo
 950 2014-04-13 08:43:28 <vetch> dizko: you realise that the block files are append-only right? it's not often that you're going to be touching them
 951 2014-04-13 08:44:04 <jgarzik_> warren, I don't know about you, but I'm going eat some ice cream and pretend I'm still on vacation until Monday.
 952 2014-04-13 08:44:10 <dizko> vetch: yea so i was thinking i could even symlink some back to disk, if i could have a script that periodically did an rsync
 953 2014-04-13 08:44:12 <SomeoneWeird> dizko, muscle memory? ;_;
 954 2014-04-13 08:44:22 <dizko> i suppose shutting down is an option but i have an always-on service, i really dislike that option
 955 2014-04-13 08:44:36 <warren> jgarzik_: I wish I could eat ice cream.
 956 2014-04-13 08:44:48 <warren> instead I'im working on nightly builds, openssl and jekyll
 957 2014-04-13 08:45:15 <netg_> it adds a layer of security and config possibilities, some admins wanna/will use in their setups
 958 2014-04-13 08:45:19 <vetch> dizko: there's probably a ridiculously complex and fragile solution there, keeping all but the most recent block files on disk and the rest in a ramdisk. seems unlikely that you'd be running into performance issues on an SDD anyway.
 959 2014-04-13 08:45:41 <dizko> 872374272 Apr 13 08:30 wallet.dat
 960 2014-04-13 08:45:46 <dizko> this is probably where my problem lies
 961 2014-04-13 08:45:49 <netg_> obvious only make sense if u run and need many distributed nodes
 962 2014-04-13 08:46:02 <vetch> dizko: time to retire that wallet.dat.
 963 2014-04-13 08:46:20 <dizko> i run a service that uses fixed addresses (i know i know)
 964 2014-04-13 08:46:43 <dizko> but yea i may change them at some point...just a customer service problem
 965 2014-04-13 08:46:58 <vetch> dizko: shard them into individual wallets?
 966 2014-04-13 08:47:02 <dizko> i have some ideas on how to scale it out and use less of the addresses in each wallet
 967 2014-04-13 08:47:05 <dizko> right
 968 2014-04-13 08:47:29 <dizko> but really since they're fixed and i have the private keys safely stored, i can lose the wallet
 969 2014-04-13 08:47:38 <dizko> so long as i had a healthyish recent backup
 970 2014-04-13 08:47:48 <dizko> as recent as possible, dont want to wait an hour to catch up
 971 2014-04-13 08:48:16 <dizko> so putting it in memory is probably cost effective.   hell maybe i just put the wallet in memory
 972 2014-04-13 08:48:47 <dizko> i need more detailed profiling to undersatnd which files the io is going to
 973 2014-04-13 08:48:58 <dizko> need a solaris build so i can use dtrace
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 975 2014-04-13 08:50:15 <vetch> dizko: wallet in memory sounds disastrous. non persistent storage and private keys is bad bad bad.
 976 2014-04-13 08:50:25 <dizko> no no, i have all the private keys
 977 2014-04-13 08:50:31 <dizko> i really only use the fixed addresses
 978 2014-04-13 08:50:32 <vetch> change addresses.
 979 2014-04-13 08:50:33 <dizko> even my change is fixed
 980 2014-04-13 08:50:43 <vetch> right.
 981 2014-04-13 08:50:52 <dizko> so really, i can lose the wallet no problem
 982 2014-04-13 08:50:59 <dizko> its the blockchain thats more annoying to catch up to
 983 2014-04-13 08:51:13 <dizko> even if its just a few days old it takes too long
 984 2014-04-13 08:51:59 <vetch> it's really just demonstrating that the reference client really, really isn't meant to scale
 985 2014-04-13 08:52:25 <dizko> sure no doubt.  my friend was helping to build a v2 of the site and he's using bits of proof (he's a java guy)
 986 2014-04-13 08:52:33 <dizko> if youre writing raw transactions anyway
 987 2014-04-13 08:52:39 <dizko> may as well just take control of it all
 988 2014-04-13 08:54:04 <dizko> anyway ive been sysadmin type person for big stupid companies enough to have come up with plenty of nonideal infrastructure solutions to make up for imperfect software
 989 2014-04-13 08:54:22 <dizko> so just looking for the right way to improve the situation without changing the app just yet
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 992 2014-04-13 09:07:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I heard someone mention the other day that GitHub has a pull tester that's integrated with it, with badges on PR pages to indicate status, etc
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 995 2014-04-13 09:08:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does anyone know anything about it, and why we're not using it?
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1012 2014-04-13 09:40:34 <wumpus> it doesn't have a pull tester of itsemf, but it's possible to integrate github with a CI
1013 2014-04-13 09:40:50 <wumpus> as to why we're not using it, for the usual reason, no one has bothered to do it :-)
1014 2014-04-13 09:42:32 <wumpus> the current pulltester works very well imo, most urgent change would be to upgrade its build environment, adding badges and such on github would be mildly useful ofcourse
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1022 2014-04-13 09:57:03 <dizko> is there a perforamnce hit in runing with txindex?
1023 2014-04-13 10:00:32 <Luke-Jr> yes
1024 2014-04-13 10:00:52 <Luke-Jr> it's unavoidable; to write to disk takes time
1025 2014-04-13 10:01:14 <Luke-Jr> the question is whether it's too significant for you
1026 2014-04-13 10:09:30 <dizko> Luke-Jr: also unavoidable for my app.   im just trying to understand how best to give it what it needs where it needs it
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1157 2014-04-13 13:05:23 <Fedorix> hello, can someone tell me the difference between the bitcoin ecdsa and the standard ecdsa that is used in openssl
1158 2014-04-13 13:05:34 <Fedorix> i cant really figure out how the public key relates to the standard one
1159 2014-04-13 13:06:59 <vetch> I did say this in #bitcoin, but alright. for compressed keys we only give one coordinate and note the sign of the other. ultimately the public key is 33 bytes rather than 65.
1160 2014-04-13 13:07:36 <Fedorix> so its not the full coordinate unlike the original?
1161 2014-04-13 13:07:48 <vetch> same information, different expression, ultimately different bitcoin address.
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1163 2014-04-13 13:08:40 <vetch> just X and the sign of Y rather then the full coordinates.
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1166 2014-04-13 13:10:04 <vetch> Fedorix: I should point out that compressed keys are the default in anything sane. there's no reason not to use them.
1167 2014-04-13 13:11:27 <Fedorix> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_Bitcoin_addresses
1168 2014-04-13 13:11:38 <Fedorix> here it says both coordinates(x,y) lay in the public key
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1170 2014-04-13 13:11:59 <c0rw1n> argh, they are computable from the public key
1171 2014-04-13 13:12:13 <vetch> for an uncompressed key that would be true. for a compressed key only X is present.
1172 2014-04-13 13:12:57 <Fedorix> ic, and we know a key is uncompressed if it has that famous "1" standing infront of it
1173 2014-04-13 13:13:15 <vetch> nope. both compressed and uncompressed keys have the same hashed format.
1174 2014-04-13 13:13:17 <Fedorix> like "16UwLL9Risc3QfPqBUvKofHmBQ7wMtjvM" would be a great example of an uncompressed key
1175 2014-04-13 13:13:40 <vetch> there's no way of telling if an address is compressed or uncompressed by looking at it.
1176 2014-04-13 13:13:56 <Fedorix> darn
1177 2014-04-13 13:14:00 <vetch> if there's a spend you can tell by the length of the private key (33 or 65 bytes), but if there's no spends you don't know.
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1179 2014-04-13 13:14:08 <vetch> length of the public key rather.
1180 2014-04-13 13:15:32 <vetch> Fedorix: private keys in the base58/WIF format do have a bit to designate if the private key is to be compressed or not, but that's a different thing altogether.
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1188 2014-04-13 13:29:15 <shesek> a byte, not a bit
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1199 2014-04-13 14:03:04 <Fedorix> vetch: http://www.johannes-bauer.com/compsci/ecc/?menuid=4
1200 2014-04-13 14:03:05 <Fedorix> read this
1201 2014-04-13 14:03:11 <Fedorix> and tell me @ the ECDSA part
1202 2014-04-13 14:03:26 <Fedorix> what is 'da' in that instance
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1204 2014-04-13 14:04:16 <vetch> a random integer? it states that in the body text.
1205 2014-04-13 14:04:31 <vetch> "To get the private key, choose a random integer ^dA"
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1207 2014-04-13 14:05:42 <Fedorix> so k and dA is a random intiger?
1208 2014-04-13 14:05:46 <vetch> Fedorix: for our curve at least, pretty much any 256bit integer is valid as a private key, there's a small range towards 0xFFF...FFF which is invalid though.
1209 2014-04-13 14:07:33 <vetch> Fedorix: yes, k is random too (though openssl supports it being deterministic as well). the randomness of k is critical, and must be unique. if k is not unique the private key can be recovered from the signatures.
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1212 2014-04-13 14:08:33 <vetch> Fedorix: that is, if you sign two texts with the same k, I instantly know your private key. this is a real-world attack that has been exploited on the bitcoin network, and on Sony's PS3 platform.
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1214 2014-04-13 14:09:03 <Fedorix> vetch: yes, i've seen that on the link i gave to you
1215 2014-04-13 14:09:25 <vetch> neat, I didn't scroll down that far
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1219 2014-04-13 14:13:17 <Fedorix> vetch: is there a simple python example of the secp256k1 implementation of the bitcoin hasher, because thats what was my original goal, im now totally lost
1220 2014-04-13 14:13:52 <vetch> hasher?
1221 2014-04-13 14:14:00 <vetch> but yes, there's a number of them if you look on github.
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1226 2014-04-13 14:16:53 <Fedorix> # Certicom secp256-k1
1227 2014-04-13 14:16:54 <Fedorix> _a  = 0x0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
1228 2014-04-13 14:16:54 <Fedorix> _b  = 0x0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000007
1229 2014-04-13 14:16:54 <Fedorix> _p  = 0xfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffefffffc2f
1230 2014-04-13 14:16:54 <Fedorix> _Gx = 0x79be667ef9dcbbac55a06295ce870b07029bfcdb2dce28d959f2815b16f81798
1231 2014-04-13 14:16:56 <Fedorix> _Gy = 0x483ada7726a3c4655da4fbfc0e1108a8fd17b448a68554199c47d08ffb10d4b8
1232 2014-04-13 14:16:58 <Fedorix> _r  = 0xfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffebaaedce6af48a03bbfd25e8cd0364141
1233 2014-04-13 14:17:01 <Fedorix> curve_secp256k1 = ellipticcurve.CurveFp( _p, _a, _b)
1234 2014-04-13 14:17:03 <Fedorix> generator_secp256k1 = ellipticcurve.Point( curve_secp256k1, _Gx, _Gy, _r)
1235 2014-04-13 14:17:06 <Fedorix> didn't see that in the "tutorial" or btc wiki
1236 2014-04-13 14:17:12 <Fedorix> Gy and Gx
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1238 2014-04-13 14:18:07 <Fedorix> vetch: i really hope im not bothering you with my stupid questions
1239 2014-04-13 14:19:54 <vetch> not really, I'm a little out of my depth though.
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1241 2014-04-13 14:21:06 <Fedorix> do you have an explanation tho for this Gx and Gy?
1242 2014-04-13 14:21:24 <HM2> Gy is computed from Gx
1243 2014-04-13 14:21:36 <HM2> using the equation of the curve
1244 2014-04-13 14:21:39 <HM2> G is just a point
1245 2014-04-13 14:21:45 <Fedorix> yes its the starting point
1246 2014-04-13 14:21:48 <Fedorix> but how do i go from there
1247 2014-04-13 14:21:56 <Fedorix> i mean do i use the casual ECC from there
1248 2014-04-13 14:22:04 <Fedorix> using parameters a,b,n and h
1249 2014-04-13 14:22:11 <HM2> with a good library ;)
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1255 2014-04-13 14:23:17 <HM2> I haven't really been following the conversation sorry
1256 2014-04-13 14:23:20 <HM2> i wrote a bitcoin address generator for fun using CryptoPP, that used the curve primitives directly.
1257 2014-04-13 14:23:21 papa2 has joined
1258 2014-04-13 14:23:40 <Fedorix> what language was used?
1259 2014-04-13 14:23:45 <HM2> C++
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1261 2014-04-13 14:23:53 <Fedorix> neet
1262 2014-04-13 14:23:55 <Fedorix> is it public?
1263 2014-04-13 14:24:22 <HM2> it could be, if i could find it
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1266 2014-04-13 14:25:04 <Fedorix> i mean, did you use openssl
1267 2014-04-13 14:25:07 <Fedorix> im sure you did
1268 2014-04-13 14:25:18 <Fedorix> also im interested in the maths that is used here
1269 2014-04-13 14:25:20 <HM2> no Crypto++
1270 2014-04-13 14:25:23 <Fedorix> ic
1271 2014-04-13 14:25:58 <HM2> found it
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1274 2014-04-13 14:27:39 <HM2> https://gist.github.com/anonymous/10586305
1275 2014-04-13 14:28:06 <HM2> it doesn't do the base58 conversion
1276 2014-04-13 14:28:15 <HM2> but that's trivial in  Python
1277 2014-04-13 14:30:05 <Fedorix> HM2: i gotta hand it to you...
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1279 2014-04-13 14:30:09 <Fedorix> you write beutifull code
1280 2014-04-13 14:30:16 <Fedorix> i was honestly hoping it was a mess
1281 2014-04-13 14:30:17 <Fedorix> but not
1282 2014-04-13 14:30:19 <Fedorix> no*
1283 2014-04-13 14:30:23 <Fedorix> its not
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1285 2014-04-13 14:31:05 <HM2> well I have some home written base58 conversion code in this directory as well
1286 2014-04-13 14:31:08 <HM2> and that's a mess :)
1287 2014-04-13 14:31:28 <HM2> all this code is from about ....2-3 years ago?
1288 2014-04-13 14:32:39 <HM2> https://gist.github.com/anonymous/10586505
1289 2014-04-13 14:32:43 <HM2> there we go
1290 2014-04-13 14:33:13 <Fedorix> lol
1291 2014-04-13 14:33:19 <Fedorix> starts out as C code
1292 2014-04-13 14:33:23 <Fedorix> ends as c++
1293 2014-04-13 14:33:28 <Fedorix> wait
1294 2014-04-13 14:33:29 <Fedorix> no
1295 2014-04-13 14:33:29 <Fedorix> sorry
1296 2014-04-13 14:33:33 <Fedorix> its all C++
1297 2014-04-13 14:34:39 <HM2> yeah
1298 2014-04-13 14:34:42 <Fedorix> HM2: do you understand the math behing ecdsa
1299 2014-04-13 14:34:45 <Fedorix> ?
1300 2014-04-13 14:34:51 <HM2> yeah, more or less
1301 2014-04-13 14:34:57 <Fedorix> ok then
1302 2014-04-13 14:35:51 <Fedorix> switch to private message
1303 2014-04-13 14:35:57 <Fedorix> w/ me
1304 2014-04-13 14:36:30 <HM2> I'd rather discuss it here
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1306 2014-04-13 14:37:28 <Fedorix> allrighty then
1307 2014-04-13 14:37:35 <Fedorix> http://www.johannes-bauer.com/compsci/ecc/?menuid=4
1308 2014-04-13 14:37:45 <Fedorix> ok so scroll to the part named "Signing using ECDSA"
1309 2014-04-13 14:37:47 <CodeShark> the maths behind ECDSA makes a lot more sense, IMHO, when you forget for a moment about elliptic curves and just think in terms of elementary group theory
1310 2014-04-13 14:37:56 <CodeShark> cyclic groups
1311 2014-04-13 14:38:14 <CodeShark> the fact you use elliptic curves to define the group is incidental
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1313 2014-04-13 14:38:16 <CodeShark> not fundamental
1314 2014-04-13 14:38:20 <Fedorix> CodeShark: ya thats my thought vector currently but im confused at the fact "which is witch"
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1317 2014-04-13 14:38:53 <HM2> I'm not even at that level really. I just accept modular arithmetic works, inverses etc, and then look at it algebraically
1318 2014-04-13 14:39:03 <CodeShark> DSA (and ECDSA, by extension) is based on the fact it's easy to compute powers but hard to compute discrete logs
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1320 2014-04-13 14:39:18 <CodeShark> any cyclic group has a generator g and an order n
1321 2014-04-13 14:39:33 <Fedorix> yes i know that
1322 2014-04-13 14:39:40 <Fedorix> what is dA and Rx
1323 2014-04-13 14:39:46 <Fedorix> and how do i get that
1324 2014-04-13 14:40:02 <CodeShark> so the private key is in the exponent
1325 2014-04-13 14:40:18 <HM2> i just think of point multiplication as magic multiplication
1326 2014-04-13 14:40:19 <CodeShark> if G is the generator, k is the private key, then G^k = K
1327 2014-04-13 14:40:22 <CodeShark> where K is the public key
1328 2014-04-13 14:40:27 <Fedorix> also how is s^-1 calculated if the ecdsa public message doesnt have any decimals since s^-1 = 1/s
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1330 2014-04-13 14:40:59 <CodeShark> the order of the group is prime - so the integers mod n are a finite field
1331 2014-04-13 14:41:12 <CodeShark> meaning all of them (except zero) have unique inverses
1332 2014-04-13 14:41:29 <CodeShark> in other words, for any a not zero, there exists b such that ab = 1 (mod n)
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1334 2014-04-13 14:42:01 <CodeShark> take the example of n = 7
1335 2014-04-13 14:42:18 <Fedorix> cyclic math is totally clear to me
1336 2014-04-13 14:42:22 <CodeShark> the inverse of 2 is 4 since 2*4 = 8 ~ 1 (mod 7)
1337 2014-04-13 14:42:42 <CodeShark> so you could write 1/2 = 4 (mod 7)
1338 2014-04-13 14:43:04 <Fedorix> hmmm
1339 2014-04-13 14:43:08 <Fedorix> how is that even posible
1340 2014-04-13 14:43:15 <Fedorix> for 0.5 = 4
1341 2014-04-13 14:43:18 <CodeShark> it follows from the definition of inverse
1342 2014-04-13 14:43:19 <Fedorix> for 0.5 = 4 (mod 7)
1343 2014-04-13 14:43:29 <CodeShark> no, 0.5 is not a member of the integers mod 7
1344 2014-04-13 14:43:35 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1345 2014-04-13 14:43:51 <CodeShark> 0.5 is a decimal notation for a rational number
1346 2014-04-13 14:43:52 <Fedorix> yea sry
1347 2014-04-13 14:45:10 Soligor has joined
1348 2014-04-13 14:45:39 <CodeShark> so we have a generator G which generates a cyclic group of prime order n
1349 2014-04-13 14:46:05 <CodeShark> the private and public keys are related by the equation G^k = K
1350 2014-04-13 14:46:23 <CodeShark> computing K given G and k is easy - computing k given G and K is hard
1351 2014-04-13 14:46:38 <Fedorix> i haven't seen anywhere that G is powered by a random integer randing from 0 to n
1352 2014-04-13 14:46:53 <CodeShark> there's also an issue of arbitrariness of notation
1353 2014-04-13 14:47:06 <CodeShark> many authors use multiplication rather than exponentiation when dealing with elliptic curves
1354 2014-04-13 14:47:16 Cray-on- has joined
1355 2014-04-13 14:47:25 <CodeShark> but I kind of prefer the exponential notation since it more clearly parallels elementary number theory
1356 2014-04-13 14:47:45 <CodeShark> i.e. many authors write the equation as k*G = K
1357 2014-04-13 14:48:07 <HM2> i write kG
1358 2014-04-13 14:48:14 <CodeShark> yeah, same thing :p
1359 2014-04-13 14:48:19 <Fedorix> well there is a huge difference between k*G and G^k since the results will be very different
1360 2014-04-13 14:48:23 <Fedorix> even if you modulate it with n
1361 2014-04-13 14:48:26 <HM2> uppercase letters for points, small case for scalars
1362 2014-04-13 14:48:33 <CodeShark> no, they are just convention, Fedorix
1363 2014-04-13 14:48:56 <Fedorix> oh sory
1364 2014-04-13 14:49:01 <CodeShark> a group is defined by a single operation - whether we consider it addition or multiplication doesn't really matter
1365 2014-04-13 14:49:04 <Fedorix> the points math totally slip out of my mind
1366 2014-04-13 14:49:30 <CodeShark> if we write kG, then we're representing them as additions
1367 2014-04-13 14:49:38 <Fedorix> also what role does dA have in all of this
1368 2014-04-13 14:49:39 <CodeShark> if we write G^k, we're representing them as multiplications
1369 2014-04-13 14:49:47 <Fedorix> since im sure its a derivative of something
1370 2014-04-13 14:49:55 <CodeShark> kG = G + G + … + G
1371 2014-04-13 14:50:05 <CodeShark> G^k = G * G * G * … * G
1372 2014-04-13 14:50:10 <CodeShark> it's merely convention in the end
1373 2014-04-13 14:50:32 <CodeShark> no. there are no derivatives of anything here
1374 2014-04-13 14:50:35 <CodeShark> it's discrete math
1375 2014-04-13 14:50:46 <CodeShark> dA is an unfortunate choice of symbol
1376 2014-04-13 14:51:00 artursapek has quit (Quit: artursapek)
1377 2014-04-13 14:51:05 <Fedorix> i see
1378 2014-04-13 14:51:10 <CodeShark> infinitesimals do not exist in the domain in which we're dealing
1379 2014-04-13 14:51:18 <HM2> I don't even know how to find a modular inverse
1380 2014-04-13 14:51:33 <CodeShark> the classical algorithm is extended euclid
1381 2014-04-13 14:51:58 <CodeShark> given a and b, find x and y such that ax + by = D where D is the greatest common divisor of a and b
1382 2014-04-13 14:52:00 <HM2> I much prefer looking at the signature algorithms in terms of algebraic construction and common sense to see why you can't figure out a private key from a signature etc
1383 2014-04-13 14:52:06 <HM2> and just taking the primitives as gospel
1384 2014-04-13 14:52:16 <CodeShark> if a and b are coprime, then D = 1
1385 2014-04-13 14:52:38 <CodeShark> so let a be the number you wish to take the inverse of, and b = n the modulus
1386 2014-04-13 14:52:50 <CodeShark> then ax + by = 1
1387 2014-04-13 14:52:57 <CodeShark> but by = ny = 0 (mod n)
1388 2014-04-13 14:53:02 <CodeShark> therefore, ax = 1 mod n
1389 2014-04-13 14:53:05 <CodeShark> so x is the inverse of a
1390 2014-04-13 14:53:21 <CodeShark> so finding x and y such that ax + by = 1 gives you the inverse of a mod b
1391 2014-04-13 14:53:41 <HM2> great but you first have  to understand coprimes
1392 2014-04-13 14:53:46 <HM2> and then how to solve euclid
1393 2014-04-13 14:53:58 <CodeShark> coprimes: numbers which share no common factors other than 1
1394 2014-04-13 14:54:03 <HM2> it's not exactly intuitive like the higher level crypto algorithms
1395 2014-04-13 14:54:54 artursapek has joined
1396 2014-04-13 14:54:57 <CodeShark> any nonzero a < n where n is prime will be coprime with n
1397 2014-04-13 14:55:33 <CodeShark> anyhow, there exists an O(log n) algorithm for computing modular inverse
1398 2014-04-13 14:55:53 <HM2> it seems like there should be an intuitive but less efficient algorithm
1399 2014-04-13 14:56:01 <CodeShark> yes, trial and error :p
1400 2014-04-13 14:56:08 <Fedorix> CodeShark: since the public key is asinghed as (r,s) and r = k*G
1401 2014-04-13 14:56:18 <Fedorix> can we derive k from the r if thats so
1402 2014-04-13 14:56:25 <HM2> e.g., it's obvious the multiplicative inverse of 4 in mod 7 is 2 because you want X mod 7 = 1, and 2*4 = 8
1403 2014-04-13 14:56:51 <CodeShark> Fedorix, we can in principle - but in practice the problem becomes extremely difficult for today's computing technology
1404 2014-04-13 14:57:02 <CodeShark> if you had a quantum computer, though…. :)
1405 2014-04-13 14:57:03 ndak has joined
1406 2014-04-13 14:57:21 <HM2> so basically you need to find an integer multiple of n + 1 that divides a to yield another integer
1407 2014-04-13 14:58:16 paveljanik has joined
1408 2014-04-13 14:58:45 <HM2> or put another way, a*b = xn + 1 for some integer x
1409 2014-04-13 14:58:46 artursapek has quit (Client Quit)
1410 2014-04-13 14:59:32 <HM2> since xn mod n = 0 + 1 = 1
1411 2014-04-13 14:59:44 <HM2> field theory sucks, i don't like any of it
1412 2014-04-13 14:59:52 lclc has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1413 2014-04-13 15:00:05 <CodeShark> no way, abstract algebra is awesome :)
1414 2014-04-13 15:00:23 <CodeShark> it's hard, but it's awesome
1415 2014-04-13 15:00:43 <CodeShark> and it's no longer just an academic curiosity :)
1416 2014-04-13 15:00:49 <CodeShark> we all know it has real-world applications
1417 2014-04-13 15:01:08 ThomasV has joined
1418 2014-04-13 15:01:41 <Fedorix> CodeShark: what part of descrete maths do you need to fully understand to understand this subject?
1419 2014-04-13 15:02:00 <CodeShark> if you understand cyclic groups and prime fields you're already a good ways there
1420 2014-04-13 15:02:08 elgrecoFL has quit (Excess Flood)
1421 2014-04-13 15:02:45 <CodeShark> here's an interesting tidbit:
1422 2014-04-13 15:03:05 <CodeShark> it's not the group itself that makes the inverse hard - it's merely the representation of the group
1423 2014-04-13 15:03:18 <CodeShark> i.e. all cyclic groups of order n are isomorphic
1424 2014-04-13 15:03:26 <CodeShark> including the rotation of an n-sided polygon
1425 2014-04-13 15:03:27 <HM2> representation?
1426 2014-04-13 15:03:37 <CodeShark> but rotations of an n-sided polygon are easily inverted
1427 2014-04-13 15:03:46 <HM2> polygon? what does geometry have to do with it?
1428 2014-04-13 15:04:19 <CodeShark> a cyclic group of order n is just a set generated by an element g taken to different powers (or products)
1429 2014-04-13 15:04:19 <Fedorix> its called ELLIPTIC CURVE CRYPTOGRAPHY for somereason is it?
1430 2014-04-13 15:04:30 elgrecoFL has joined
1431 2014-04-13 15:04:32 Dizzle has joined
1432 2014-04-13 15:04:45 rdymac has joined
1433 2014-04-13 15:04:55 <CodeShark> the elliptic curves are merely group representations that are difficult to invert
1434 2014-04-13 15:05:19 <HM2> Fedorix, it's just an efficient way of creating a field afaik, the shape of the elliptic function creates a closed loop when you bounce around the graph
1435 2014-04-13 15:05:22 <CodeShark> G could just be a specific position of an n-sided go
1436 2014-04-13 15:05:24 <CodeShark> G could just be a specific position of an n-sided gn
1437 2014-04-13 15:05:26 <CodeShark> G could just be a specific position of an n-sided gon
1438 2014-04-13 15:05:40 <CodeShark> then 2G would mean you rotate it by 360/n degrees
1439 2014-04-13 15:05:46 <CodeShark> 3G means you rotate it twice
1440 2014-04-13 15:06:11 <HM2> by rotate you mean what exactly
1441 2014-04-13 15:06:11 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1442 2014-04-13 15:06:17 rnicoll has joined
1443 2014-04-13 15:06:20 <CodeShark> you turn it around its center on a plane
1444 2014-04-13 15:06:52 <CodeShark> all cyclic groups are isomorphic to the rotational symmetry group of a regular polygon
1445 2014-04-13 15:06:57 lclc has joined
1446 2014-04-13 15:07:10 <CodeShark> i.e. a cyclic group of order 5 is isomorphic to the symmetry group of rotations of a pentagon
1447 2014-04-13 15:07:26 <CodeShark> you can add two rotations to come up with another rotation
1448 2014-04-13 15:07:34 <CodeShark> i.e. rotate by one angle, then by two angles
1449 2014-04-13 15:07:53 <HM2> I don't understand how rotating a polygon has anything to do with a cyclic group
1450 2014-04-13 15:07:57 anton000 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1451 2014-04-13 15:08:01 <HM2> are the points the vertices in this mental model?
1452 2014-04-13 15:08:07 <CodeShark> yes
1453 2014-04-13 15:08:33 <HM2> so you're saying there exists some polygon that can be rotated to produce secp256k1?
1454 2014-04-13 15:08:37 <CodeShark> you rotate the polygon around its center until the vertices are displaced such that the new vertices lie exactly atop the old vertices
1455 2014-04-13 15:08:51 <CodeShark> every such rotation constitutes a group element
1456 2014-04-13 15:08:54 lclc has quit (Client Quit)
1457 2014-04-13 15:09:15 <HM2> eh
1458 2014-04-13 15:09:31 <HM2> won't that always produce a cicle
1459 2014-04-13 15:09:31 <CodeShark> and yes, there exists a polygon - specifically the regular n-gon where n is the order of secp256k1
1460 2014-04-13 15:09:33 <HM2> circle
1461 2014-04-13 15:09:39 <CodeShark> you don't rotate continuously
1462 2014-04-13 15:09:51 <CodeShark> you only consider rotations which leave it invariant
1463 2014-04-13 15:09:58 <CodeShark> in other words, rotations that take the figure back to itself
1464 2014-04-13 15:10:11 <davispuh> I wonder is there somewhere documentation about actual implementation of Bitcoin core (not Satoshi paper), but like how blockchain/wallet is stored on disk, I know it uses LevelDB, but there's nothing in /doc/ written about it. Seems like only option is to read source?
1465 2014-04-13 15:10:20 <CodeShark> if you rotate a square by 90 degrees, you end up with another square that is indistinguishable
1466 2014-04-13 15:10:25 roconnor has joined
1467 2014-04-13 15:10:27 <HM2> CodeShark, is there anywhere you can see this visually for a simple case?
1468 2014-04-13 15:10:33 <CodeShark> I just gave an example
1469 2014-04-13 15:10:38 <CodeShark> or start with a triangle if you want :)
1470 2014-04-13 15:10:40 <CodeShark> simplest case
1471 2014-04-13 15:11:00 <CodeShark> three possible rotations of an equilateral triangle which take it to itself
1472 2014-04-13 15:11:11 <CodeShark> the identity, rotation by 120 degrees, and rotation by 240 degrees
1473 2014-04-13 15:11:38 <HM2> so the seckp256k1 polygon will have n sides
1474 2014-04-13 15:11:45 <CodeShark> yep
1475 2014-04-13 15:12:10 <HM2> all of equal length?
1476 2014-04-13 15:12:16 <CodeShark> yep
1477 2014-04-13 15:12:24 <HM2> so it's almost a circle
1478 2014-04-13 15:12:38 <CodeShark> that depends on the scale at which you view it :)
1479 2014-04-13 15:12:50 rdymac has joined
1480 2014-04-13 15:12:58 <HM2> so what would the plane of rotation be?
1481 2014-04-13 15:13:00 <CodeShark> n is finite, so technically it is not a circle
1482 2014-04-13 15:13:09 <CodeShark> it approaches a circle as n->infinity
1483 2014-04-13 15:13:19 sserrano44 has joined
1484 2014-04-13 15:13:31 <CodeShark> the plane of rotation is the plane on which the polygon lies
1485 2014-04-13 15:13:38 <CodeShark> and the axis of rotation is the center of the polygon
1486 2014-04-13 15:13:44 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1487 2014-04-13 15:13:54 <HM2> yeah but is that the same axis as the secp256k1 curve?
1488 2014-04-13 15:14:12 <CodeShark> point is the two groups are isomorphic
1489 2014-04-13 15:14:15 <CodeShark> they have identical structure
1490 2014-04-13 15:14:19 pierreat1ork has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1491 2014-04-13 15:14:19 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1492 2014-04-13 15:14:32 <CodeShark> even though these are two seemingly very different ways of defining it
1493 2014-04-13 15:14:53 <HM2> so it doesn't look like secp256k1 at all
1494 2014-04-13 15:15:06 <HM2> or an elliptic curve for that matter
1495 2014-04-13 15:15:09 <CodeShark> whether you add another G to a point on an elliptic curve or whether you rotate the n-gon by 360/n degrees, you end up with the same essential structure
1496 2014-04-13 15:15:11 <airbreather> HM2: geometrically, you mean?
1497 2014-04-13 15:15:20 <HM2> yeah
1498 2014-04-13 15:15:34 <CodeShark> but the n-gon representation cannot be used for crypto
1499 2014-04-13 15:15:40 <CodeShark> why? because it's trivial to invert
1500 2014-04-13 15:16:04 ryanxcharles has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1501 2014-04-13 15:16:11 <HM2> sure, given the coordinates of any point you can work out the rotation angle using trig
1502 2014-04-13 15:16:24 <CodeShark> in other words, you could map every single rotation of the n-gon to a point in secp256k1
1503 2014-04-13 15:16:40 <CodeShark> and if you knew this mapping, you could easily translate from one system to the other
1504 2014-04-13 15:17:00 <HM2> what does it actually *mean* to 'map' them though?
1505 2014-04-13 15:17:15 <CodeShark> ok, take two rotations of the n-gon - "add" them
1506 2014-04-13 15:17:21 <CodeShark> meaning, perform one rotation then the other
1507 2014-04-13 15:17:35 <CodeShark> it should be clear that the order in which you perform the rotations doesn't matter
1508 2014-04-13 15:17:59 <CodeShark> rotating right by 120 degrees then left by 240 degrees is the same as first rotating left by 240 degrees then right by 120
1509 2014-04-13 15:18:10 <HM2> yeah
1510 2014-04-13 15:19:00 <CodeShark> elliptic curves also exhibit this property when adding points
1511 2014-04-13 15:19:20 <HM2> yeah, which is why we can do basic algebra with points and produce nice things like DSA
1512 2014-04-13 15:19:33 <CodeShark> so we can map the generator G of secp256k1 to a rotation of an n-gon by 360/n degrees
1513 2014-04-13 15:19:53 <CodeShark> then 2G ~ rotation by 2(360/n)
1514 2014-04-13 15:19:57 <CodeShark> etc...
1515 2014-04-13 15:20:26 <HM2> ah.... so it we could map kG to the point at k(360/n) then we could trivially work out k
1516 2014-04-13 15:20:32 <CodeShark> exactly
1517 2014-04-13 15:21:10 <HM2> so is it possible to create an EC given an n-gon?
1518 2014-04-13 15:21:32 <HM2> how difficult is finding out this equivalence relation
1519 2014-04-13 15:21:42 <HM2> isomorphism
1520 2014-04-13 15:21:45 <HM2> or whatever the term is
1521 2014-04-13 15:22:24 <CodeShark> I do not believe there's any simple algorithm - and perhaps it's even possible to prove that some orders do not occur
1522 2014-04-13 15:22:32 <CodeShark> for EC
1523 2014-04-13 15:22:41 <CodeShark> although don't quote me on that one :p
1524 2014-04-13 15:23:11 Andymeows has joined
1525 2014-04-13 15:23:41 <HM2> wait
1526 2014-04-13 15:23:48 <CodeShark> what you're basically asking for is a way to find an EC and a point G on the EC such that G^n = identity
1527 2014-04-13 15:23:49 <airbreather> If it were computationally simple, wouldn't it only take someone who understands this deeply to make a ton of money?
1528 2014-04-13 15:24:01 <HM2> why does the polygon have both n sides / vertices *and* n rotations?
1529 2014-04-13 15:24:26 <Fedorix> CodeShark: http://pastebin.com/Ch3XsXDM
1530 2014-04-13 15:24:30 <HM2> why can't you have a triangle and rotate it 57 times
1531 2014-04-13 15:24:42 <Fedorix> if this is correct then we can derive k from G*k
1532 2014-04-13 15:25:02 <CodeShark> k*G does NOT mean scalar multiplication
1533 2014-04-13 15:25:09 <CodeShark> in this context, G is NOT a scalar - it is a point
1534 2014-04-13 15:25:24 <Fedorix> oh i know exactly what you're talking about
1535 2014-04-13 15:25:27 <CodeShark> and k*G is defined as repeated addition of a point on an elliptic cirve
1536 2014-04-13 15:25:27 <Fedorix> funally some sence
1537 2014-04-13 15:25:35 <CodeShark> *curve
1538 2014-04-13 15:25:56 <HM2> where addition isn't actually any natural sense of addition :(
1539 2014-04-13 15:26:16 cbeams has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1540 2014-04-13 15:26:44 <HM2> there's nothing intuitive about ECC geometrically. the n-gon stuff sounds fascinating though
1541 2014-04-13 15:26:48 <CodeShark> right - it's actually just a commutative abstract operation involving finding the third point at which a line passing through the two points intersects the curve
1542 2014-04-13 15:27:23 <CodeShark> it is called "addition" merely because it implies commutativity more than multiplication
1543 2014-04-13 15:27:27 <HM2> CodeShark, right, which sounds like an idea someone pulled out of their butt
1544 2014-04-13 15:27:42 <HM2> yeah, except it's commutative
1545 2014-04-13 15:27:47 <HM2> that makes sense
1546 2014-04-13 15:28:04 <CodeShark> but multiplication can also be commutative
1547 2014-04-13 15:28:11 <Fedorix> CodeShark: http://pastebin.com/4707E0HE
1548 2014-04-13 15:28:14 <Fedorix> is this correct?
1549 2014-04-13 15:28:34 <CodeShark> no
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1552 2014-04-13 15:28:52 anton000 has joined
1553 2014-04-13 15:28:55 <CodeShark> forget everythign you learned in arithmetic :p
1554 2014-04-13 15:28:57 lolstate has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1555 2014-04-13 15:28:59 <HM2> Fedorix, in my code the .Multiply function performs the scalar * point multiplication
1556 2014-04-13 15:29:16 <Fedorix> well as far as i know
1557 2014-04-13 15:29:16 <HM2> which is a sequence of double and add operations
1558 2014-04-13 15:29:29 <Fedorix> you multipy scalars with points like this
1559 2014-04-13 15:29:34 <HM2> double and add are different EC operations
1560 2014-04-13 15:29:41 <Fedorix> P * k = Px * k && Py * k
1561 2014-04-13 15:30:26 <CodeShark> nope
1562 2014-04-13 15:30:26 <HM2> it kind of makes sense I guess
1563 2014-04-13 15:30:33 <CodeShark> that would be scaling a point
1564 2014-04-13 15:30:40 <CodeShark> which is a completely different operation
1565 2014-04-13 15:31:03 <CodeShark> or scaling a vector, rather
1566 2014-04-13 15:31:05 <HM2> if addition a + b is the intersection with the curve to find b then a + a will be the reflection
1567 2014-04-13 15:31:12 <HM2> i've never really thought about it before
1568 2014-04-13 15:31:28 <HM2> err find c*
1569 2014-04-13 15:31:32 rnicoll has left ("Leaving")
1570 2014-04-13 15:31:49 <CodeShark> http://i.stack.imgur.com/nkLWe.png
1571 2014-04-13 15:31:57 <CodeShark> P + Q = R
1572 2014-04-13 15:32:17 <HM2> <--- afk for a bit
1573 2014-04-13 15:32:22 <CodeShark> draw the line connecting P and Q, then find the third point at which the line intersects the curve, then reflect it over the x axis
1574 2014-04-13 15:32:34 <CodeShark> if P and Q are the same point, then use the tangent at P
1575 2014-04-13 15:33:27 <CodeShark> given any two distinct points, there will always exist a third point at which the line intersects the curve…except if the two points are just a point and its reflection across the x axis
1576 2014-04-13 15:33:33 Subo1977_ has joined
1577 2014-04-13 15:33:38 <CodeShark> so EC groups require us to invent a "point at infinity"
1578 2014-04-13 15:33:44 <CodeShark> to deal with this case
1579 2014-04-13 15:33:49 <CodeShark> and this actually makes the whole thing work :)
1580 2014-04-13 15:33:53 <CodeShark> it's like magic
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1585 2014-04-13 15:35:42 <CodeShark> the reason for three points of intersection is the fact that we're dealing with a cubic in x
1586 2014-04-13 15:36:02 <CodeShark> ftoa
1587 2014-04-13 15:36:22 <CodeShark> a cubic equation always has three (not necessarily distinct) solution
1588 2014-04-13 15:36:29 <CodeShark> at least in the complex numbers
1589 2014-04-13 15:37:21 lolstate has joined
1590 2014-04-13 15:37:41 <CodeShark> so here we're dealing with a finite prime field rather than the complex numbers
1591 2014-04-13 15:37:49 <CodeShark> at least in the case of secp256k1
1592 2014-04-13 15:37:56 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1593 2014-04-13 15:39:41 Fedorix has quit (Read error: No route to host)
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1596 2014-04-13 15:46:41 <HM2> back
1597 2014-04-13 15:48:04 <HM2> CodeShark, the reflection across the x axis is just the same point with negative Y isn't it, since the curve is symmetrical?
1598 2014-04-13 15:48:21 <CodeShark> yes, indeed
1599 2014-04-13 15:48:36 austinhill has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1600 2014-04-13 15:48:44 <CodeShark> so we can consider the "point at infinity" to be analogous to the number zero
1601 2014-04-13 15:48:56 <CodeShark> A + (-A) = 0
1602 2014-04-13 15:48:58 <HM2> why is the reflection used for doubling ?
1603 2014-04-13 15:49:15 <CodeShark> so that A + (-A) = 0
1604 2014-04-13 15:49:37 <CodeShark> we require that A + B + (-B) = A
1605 2014-04-13 15:50:24 <CodeShark> so if A + B = C, then A + B - C = 0
1606 2014-04-13 15:50:40 <HM2> right but why reflect
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1608 2014-04-13 15:50:54 <CodeShark> the same reason the sign in front of the C is negative in this last equation
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1611 2014-04-13 15:51:16 <CodeShark> the three points must add to 0
1612 2014-04-13 15:51:32 <HM2> That's logical algabraicly but hard to visualise why it works geometrically
1613 2014-04-13 15:51:34 <CodeShark> otherwise we lose the commutativity - and possibly even more structure
1614 2014-04-13 15:51:38 digitalmagus2 has joined
1615 2014-04-13 15:52:22 <CodeShark> we require that if A + B + C = 0, then A + B = -C, A + C = -B, and B + C = -A
1616 2014-04-13 15:53:00 <CodeShark> given a line intersecting the curve at three distinct points, there's absolutely no reason we should treat any of the points as more special than the others
1617 2014-04-13 15:53:11 <HM2> right
1618 2014-04-13 15:53:31 <HM2> but if you take two points  A  and B you can only draw one line
1619 2014-04-13 15:53:40 <HM2> if you take the same point for A and B, there are infinite lines
1620 2014-04-13 15:53:45 <HM2> through that point
1621 2014-04-13 15:53:52 <HM2> that reintersect the curve
1622 2014-04-13 15:53:58 <CodeShark> no. there is a unique tangent
1623 2014-04-13 15:54:06 <HM2> but why use the tangent?
1624 2014-04-13 15:54:33 <HM2> the objective in the abstract sense is so given any 2 of A, B and C you can find the last
1625 2014-04-13 15:54:44 <HM2> just like addition
1626 2014-04-13 15:54:56 <CodeShark> just think about cubic functions for a moment
1627 2014-04-13 15:54:59 <CodeShark> over the real numbers
1628 2014-04-13 15:55:13 <HM2> y = x^2
1629 2014-04-13 15:55:19 Apocalyptic has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1630 2014-04-13 15:55:19 <CodeShark> a repeated real root ALWAYS means the x axis is tangent to the curve at that root
1631 2014-04-13 15:55:48 jcv has quit (Quit: leaving)
1632 2014-04-13 15:55:54 <CodeShark> i.e. x^2(x-1)
1633 2014-04-13 15:56:00 <CodeShark> f(x) = x^2 (x-1)
1634 2014-04-13 15:56:18 <CodeShark> has a repeated root of 0 and a unique root of 1
1635 2014-04-13 15:56:31 <CodeShark> it intersects the x axis at x=0 and x=1
1636 2014-04-13 15:56:39 <CodeShark> it is tangent to the x axis at the repeated root
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1641 2014-04-13 15:57:13 <CodeShark> https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=x%5E2%28x-1%29
1642 2014-04-13 15:57:22 Elglobonoob has joined
1643 2014-04-13 15:57:37 <CodeShark> so adding a point with itself -> repeated root
1644 2014-04-13 15:57:52 Apocalyptic has joined
1645 2014-04-13 15:58:00 <HM2> what
1646 2014-04-13 15:58:26 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1647 2014-04-13 15:58:38 <CodeShark> specifically, we're interested in the intersection between a line and a cubic
1648 2014-04-13 15:58:50 <CodeShark> in the example I just gave, that line happens to also be the x axis
1649 2014-04-13 15:58:58 <CodeShark> but we could choose any line
1650 2014-04-13 15:59:02 <CodeShark> the same principle holds
1651 2014-04-13 15:59:16 <CodeShark> we can just transform our coordinates so that the line becomes the x axis
1652 2014-04-13 15:59:25 <HM2> i don't follow
1653 2014-04-13 15:59:33 <HM2> where did x^2 * (x-1) come from
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1656 2014-04-13 15:59:46 <CodeShark> just an example of a cubic with three real roots, two of them repeated
1657 2014-04-13 15:59:58 <CodeShark> which exhibits clearly the phenomenon we're talking about
1658 2014-04-13 16:00:07 <CodeShark> namely, the x axis is tangent to the curve at the repeated root
1659 2014-04-13 16:00:14 Joshmeows has joined
1660 2014-04-13 16:00:44 <CodeShark> the proof is left as an exercise for the reader :)
1661 2014-04-13 16:01:13 <sipa> single root: intersection
1662 2014-04-13 16:01:19 <sipa> double root: tangent line
1663 2014-04-13 16:01:32 <sipa> triple root: tangent hyperbole
1664 2014-04-13 16:01:38 <sipa> *parabole
1665 2014-04-13 16:02:07 <sipa> well, in general: n-ary root: (n-1)th derivative approximation
1666 2014-04-13 16:02:16 <HM2> yeah i'm with you
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1669 2014-04-13 16:02:55 <HM2> a cubic intersects the x-axis at 3 points, that function touches the x-axis so a tangent at that point is the x-axis
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1671 2014-04-13 16:03:08 <HM2> i don't see how that means the tangent has to be used for an elliptic curve
1672 2014-04-13 16:03:22 <CodeShark> because we're given two points and we're solving for the third
1673 2014-04-13 16:03:42 <CodeShark> all of them must be roots of the equation when the coordinates are transformed so that the line is the x axis
1674 2014-04-13 16:04:49 <HM2> sorry i mean the reflection
1675 2014-04-13 16:05:05 <CodeShark> so that the three solutions are symmetrical
1676 2014-04-13 16:05:06 <HM2> as the 2 points progress toward one another you tend toward a tangent
1677 2014-04-13 16:05:15 <CodeShark> A + B + C = 0
1678 2014-04-13 16:05:28 <CodeShark> this equation must be invariant under permutations of A, B, and C
1679 2014-04-13 16:05:59 <HM2> so in a sense the half of the curve above the x-axis is being used for positive points and the half below as negative?
1680 2014-04-13 16:06:19 <CodeShark> yeah, they are inverses of one another
1681 2014-04-13 16:06:29 <CodeShark> which is positive and which is negative is merely convention
1682 2014-04-13 16:06:39 <HM2> ah i see
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1684 2014-04-13 16:07:46 <HM2> i take it the tip of the curve is outside of the field in secp*
1685 2014-04-13 16:08:00 <HM2> since a tangent at that point would be a vertical line
1686 2014-04-13 16:08:08 <HM2> and wouldn't reintersect the curve
1687 2014-04-13 16:08:22 Guest86205 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1688 2014-04-13 16:08:28 <CodeShark> vertical lines, by definition, intersect the curve at the "point at infinity"
1689 2014-04-13 16:08:51 ndak has quit ()
1690 2014-04-13 16:09:05 <CodeShark> something mathematicians pull out of their asses to make the algebra work :)
1691 2014-04-13 16:09:22 <HM2> so the point at infinity has no geometric foundation
1692 2014-04-13 16:09:26 <HM2> it's just a hack
1693 2014-04-13 16:09:30 <CodeShark> sorta
1694 2014-04-13 16:10:13 <sipa> if you look at the geometry in a projective way, it's real
1695 2014-04-13 16:11:14 <CodeShark> it's somewhat analogous to the concept of a vertical line having infinite slope
1696 2014-04-13 16:11:40 <sipa> so instead of y^2 = x^3 + 7, you get (y/z)^2 = (x/z)^3 + 7  aka y^2*z = x^3 + 7*z^3
1697 2014-04-13 16:12:10 <CodeShark> right, so as z -> 0 we approach infinity
1698 2014-04-13 16:12:11 <sipa> and a point is defined as the set of tuples (x,y,z) up to scaling
1699 2014-04-13 16:12:21 jokosh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1700 2014-04-13 16:12:24 <sipa> zo (1,2,0) and (2,4,0) belong to the same point
1701 2014-04-13 16:12:44 jokosh has joined
1702 2014-04-13 16:13:16 <sipa> and normal points (x,y) correspond to the set (x*p,y*p,p)
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1704 2014-04-13 16:13:35 <sipa> and the point at infinity is (0,p,0)
1705 2014-04-13 16:13:42 <sipa> i think
1706 2014-04-13 16:14:09 <CodeShark> right - we map the plane to equivalence classes in a 3D space
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1709 2014-04-13 16:14:37 <sipa> yeah, a point becomes a 'line through the origin'
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1711 2014-04-13 16:14:51 <sipa> and where they intersect with z=1, you get the normal coordinates
1712 2014-04-13 16:14:58 <sipa> but you have lines parallel to z=1 too
1713 2014-04-13 16:15:39 <HM2> i think i see
1714 2014-04-13 16:15:47 <HM2> draw an elliptic curve with a tangent on the nipple
1715 2014-04-13 16:15:54 <HM2> turn the paper so it's a slice in 3d space
1716 2014-04-13 16:16:05 <HM2> then the tangent looks like a point looking at in the Z plane
1717 2014-04-13 16:16:10 jokosh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1718 2014-04-13 16:16:13 <sipa> right
1719 2014-04-13 16:16:35 jokosh has joined
1720 2014-04-13 16:17:19 <HM2> kind of abstract
1721 2014-04-13 16:17:21 cbeams has joined
1722 2014-04-13 16:17:47 <sipa> what are you talking about! there is nothing abstract about math... :p
1723 2014-04-13 16:18:14 <CodeShark> especially abstract algebra
1724 2014-04-13 16:18:32 <sipa> especially higher-dimensional geometry
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1726 2014-04-13 16:18:44 <HM2> doesn't the x,z plane on elliptic curve also look like an elliptic curve?
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1729 2014-04-13 16:19:25 <sipa> that would have equation z = x^3
1730 2014-04-13 16:19:35 <sipa> which is a cubic, but not elliptic
1731 2014-04-13 16:19:36 <Fedorix> HM2: http://www.johannes-bauer.com/compsci/ecc/?menuid=4
1732 2014-04-13 16:19:36 <Fedorix> read this
1733 2014-04-13 16:19:36 <Fedorix> this might help you alot
1734 2014-04-13 16:20:25 <HM2> I'm trying to slog my way through 19 lectures atm on youtube by Alex Stepanov atm
1735 2014-04-13 16:20:38 <HM2> I already know C++ very well, so it's painful atm
1736 2014-04-13 16:20:38 jokosh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1737 2014-04-13 16:20:51 <HM2> I'm hoping as the lectures progress it gets more insightful
1738 2014-04-13 16:21:04 jokosh has joined
1739 2014-04-13 16:21:06 <Fedorix> HM2: can you post lecture one
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1741 2014-04-13 16:21:11 <CodeShark> C++ is not necessarily the best language for studying these concepts :)
1742 2014-04-13 16:21:13 <Fedorix> im curious on what you are watching
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1746 2014-04-13 16:21:32 <CodeShark> imperative languages are great for mapping operations to machine instructions
1747 2014-04-13 16:21:36 jokosh has joined
1748 2014-04-13 16:21:45 <CodeShark> they aren't necessarily that great at elucidating the fundamental relations
1749 2014-04-13 16:22:32 <HM2> Fedorix, it's "Efficient Programming with Components" on Youtube
1750 2014-04-13 16:23:09 bbbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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1752 2014-04-13 16:23:14 <HM2> CodeShark, I dislike abstract. I like mechanics and geometry and hammerinng bits in to my CPU
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1757 2014-04-13 16:27:19 <HM2> statistics isn't bad either
1758 2014-04-13 16:27:54 <HM2> you can get by in stats with calculus and it feels like you solved a real problem
1759 2014-04-13 16:28:41 <HM2> all this group theory stuff doesn't feel like solving a problem, it feels like being imaginative and then having to strangle a mathematician to explain why its useful
1760 2014-04-13 16:29:07 Andymeows has joined
1761 2014-04-13 16:29:38 <airbreather> the problem is that hand-waving and minimizing the usefulness (and making important, impactful assumptions based on that) can easily get you into trouble in Bitcoin
1762 2014-04-13 16:30:40 <airbreather> OK, maybe not "easily".
1763 2014-04-13 16:31:51 <HM2> The thing is though, the way Bitcoin works is intuitive
1764 2014-04-13 16:32:07 zcopley has joined
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1766 2014-04-13 16:33:09 <HM2> when you look at other cryptocurrency ideas they all involve lots and lots of this abstract algebra
1767 2014-04-13 16:33:59 <HM2> Now smart people still have to prove the blockchain is secure under a set of conditions, but it's still intuitive as a whole once you explain it in block diagram form
1768 2014-04-13 16:35:07 <HM2> especially if you like Merkle trees
1769 2014-04-13 16:35:29 MoALTz_ has joined
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1771 2014-04-13 16:36:07 <HM2> How many Bitcoin developers does it take to screw in a lightbulb? I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure it will involve using a Merkle tree at some point? ;)
1772 2014-04-13 16:36:19 austinhill has quit (Client Quit)
1773 2014-04-13 16:38:21 <CodeShark> the number of bitcoin developers required to prove that a lightbulb has been screwed in is logarithmic in the number of lightbulbs :p
1774 2014-04-13 16:38:49 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1775 2014-04-13 16:39:04 <HM2> I'm pretty sure sipa can reduce the constant factor to close to 1 though :p
1776 2014-04-13 16:39:17 <CodeShark> it's unfortunate that Satoshi didn't extend the merkle tree insight to basically just make the entire block tree abstract to begin with :p
1777 2014-04-13 16:39:24 dims has joined
1778 2014-04-13 16:39:41 <CodeShark> why encode a specific set of header fields and then hash them?
1779 2014-04-13 16:40:05 <CodeShark> just incorporate ALL the block data into the same hash tree :)
1780 2014-04-13 16:40:24 <CodeShark> fully decouples block structure from proof-of-work
1781 2014-04-13 16:40:27 <airbreather> transactions in the block chain would instead be "identified" by the path from the root
1782 2014-04-13 16:40:32 <airbreather> interesting idea
1783 2014-04-13 16:41:34 <CodeShark> a block header should consist of a timestamp, a nonce, and a fixed-sized field which the proof-of-work algorithm need know absolutely nothing about
1784 2014-04-13 16:42:41 <CodeShark> and the nonce should be large enough to make overflows relatively infrequent
1785 2014-04-13 16:43:02 <PRab> Why even have the timestamp.
1786 2014-04-13 16:43:11 <CodeShark> yeah, I suppose we could even do away with the timestamp
1787 2014-04-13 16:43:19 <airbreather> no
1788 2014-04-13 16:43:25 <sipa> CodeShark: that's certainly appealing, but if near every use of a block identification would require some fields anyway (as has been shown to be very useful for dos protection), putting it in a merkle tree isn't all that useful
1789 2014-04-13 16:43:46 <CodeShark> sipa, needn't be put into a merkle tree
1790 2014-04-13 16:43:54 <CodeShark> it could just be prehashed into the fixed sized field
1791 2014-04-13 16:44:04 <sipa> how is that not a merkle tree? :p
1792 2014-04-13 16:44:22 <CodeShark> we're not really concerned about partial proofs of existence in this application
1793 2014-04-13 16:44:32 <airbreather> ahh I see, maybe timestamp wouldn't be needed in that case
1794 2014-04-13 16:44:41 <CodeShark> the point is that we don't just apply the hash to a single blob of data
1795 2014-04-13 16:44:52 <CodeShark> rather, we use hash(hash(data) + nonce)
1796 2014-04-13 16:45:01 <CodeShark> where hash(data) is of fixed size
1797 2014-04-13 16:45:20 <sipa> right
1798 2014-04-13 16:45:34 <sipa> but that's what i meant really... it's sort of a prestructured merkle tree
1799 2014-04-13 16:46:01 <sipa> i see your point.. it decouples the PoW algorithm from all the rest
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1801 2014-04-13 16:46:20 <sipa> but that's just a software engineering concern, not really a technical benefit
1802 2014-04-13 16:46:31 * sipa afk
1803 2014-04-13 16:46:42 <PRab> yep, it makes implementing a miner trivial.
1804 2014-04-13 16:46:56 <buZz>  miner :D
1805 2014-04-13 16:46:57 <buZz> hahaha
1806 2014-04-13 16:47:02 <sipa> ?
1807 2014-04-13 16:47:14 <buZz> i bet its a typo for minor
1808 2014-04-13 16:47:19 <airbreather> wouldn't it also make it easier to upgrade?
1809 2014-04-13 16:47:19 <sipa> ... no
1810 2014-04-13 16:47:29 <buZz> lol
1811 2014-04-13 16:47:34 <buZz> then joke's on me!
1812 2014-04-13 16:47:34 <sipa> buZz: ?
1813 2014-04-13 16:47:35 <buZz> hahaha
1814 2014-04-13 16:47:39 <CodeShark> it would allow easily extending block headers without the need for hacks like "oh, let's just stick this into coinbase"
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1817 2014-04-13 16:47:55 <sipa> CodeShark: agree
1818 2014-04-13 16:48:14 <HM2> you know what you should really do
1819 2014-04-13 16:48:22 <sipa> get a life?
1820 2014-04-13 16:48:25 <HM2> add a 64kb ping pong keepalive extension to the protocol
1821 2014-04-13 16:48:26 lclc has joined
1822 2014-04-13 16:48:30 <buZz> HM2: :D
1823 2014-04-13 16:48:32 <HM2> hasily
1824 2014-04-13 16:48:34 <sipa> brilliant!
1825 2014-04-13 16:48:34 <cbeams> hah
1826 2014-04-13 16:48:35 <HM2> hastily*
1827 2014-04-13 16:48:36 <airbreather> Oh yeah
1828 2014-04-13 16:48:45 <sipa> we only have 64-bit ping-pongs
1829 2014-04-13 16:48:47 nameless has joined
1830 2014-04-13 16:48:50 <buZz> is it true that this extension to ssl only -exists- for two years?
1831 2014-04-13 16:48:51 <sipa> that's not sufficient
1832 2014-04-13 16:48:57 <sipa> yes
1833 2014-04-13 16:49:11 <buZz> right ..
1834 2014-04-13 16:49:46 <HM2> SSL/TLS needs a standard API, like OpenGL, POSIX or libc
1835 2014-04-13 16:50:01 <HM2> it's that important
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1842 2014-04-13 16:55:45 <HM2> From the TLS 1.2 RFC : "This document is not intended to supply any details of service definition or of interface definition"
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1866 2014-04-13 17:21:36 <tommygunner> is there a formula that lets you calculate coin priority
1867 2014-04-13 17:22:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tommygunner: yes
1868 2014-04-13 17:22:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Age in blocks times value in satoshis
1869 2014-04-13 17:22:41 <tommygunner> and what are the brackets
1870 2014-04-13 17:22:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|IIRC, sum that calculation for all the inputs and divide by the size in bytes
1871 2014-04-13 17:23:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And then that needs to be under 56m or so?
1872 2014-04-13 17:23:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Er, over*
1873 2014-04-13 17:23:43 <tommygunner> i mean when does a low priority become low-medium, when does low-medium become medium etc.
1874 2014-04-13 17:23:45 nickler has joined
1875 2014-04-13 17:24:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tommygunner: oh, idk what the coin control GUI does
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1890 2014-04-13 17:35:51 <daemon> hey all can anyone explain something to me, for the payload construct...
1891 2014-04-13 17:35:51 <daemon> 8	 timestamp	 int64_t	 standard UNIX timestamp in seconds
1892 2014-04-13 17:35:56 <daemon> the example given is:
1893 2014-04-13 17:36:01 <daemon> E6 15 10 4D 00 00 00 00                                                       - Mon Dec 20 21:50:14 EST 2010
1894 2014-04-13 17:36:05 <daemon> that is not a timestamp
1895 2014-04-13 17:36:12 <daemon> which bit of the documentation is wrong?
1896 2014-04-13 17:36:24 <daemon> well its not an epoch unix timestamp
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1900 2014-04-13 17:40:23 <wumpus> time.ctime(0x4D1015E6) returns exactly that date here
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1903 2014-04-13 17:41:51 <daemon> hmm I must be converting it wrong
1904 2014-04-13 17:41:56 <daemon> back to the docs
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2033 2014-04-13 19:47:43 <chichov> is it just me or does https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp#L238 not make any sense?
2034 2014-04-13 19:48:34 <vetch> chichov: why do you think that's nonsensical?
2035 2014-04-13 19:48:45 <chichov> first it is checked whether the pubkey is less than 33 bytes (compressed format I suppose) and then if it is not equal to 65 bytes (uncompressed)
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2037 2014-04-13 19:49:24 <chichov> even worse, the uncompressed pubkey is exactly 33 bytes long.
2038 2014-04-13 19:49:45 <vetch> uncompressed pub keys are 65 bytes
2039 2014-04-13 19:49:58 <chichov> yep, and compressed ones are 33
2040 2014-04-13 19:50:15 <chichov> and that conditional statement makes both fail
2041 2014-04-13 19:50:24 <airbreather> ?
2042 2014-04-13 19:50:49 <airbreather> if the size is less than 33... then it's 32 or lower
2043 2014-04-13 19:50:58 <airbreather> 33 and 65 are both above 32
2044 2014-04-13 19:51:09 <chichov> my god, I am truly blind
2045 2014-04-13 19:51:16 <chichov> too much code reading, sorry for that :|
2046 2014-04-13 19:51:31 <vetch> don't be.
2047 2014-04-13 19:51:47 <chichov> next time I'll check it 20 times again
2048 2014-04-13 19:52:15 <chichov> anyways, sorry for bothering you
2049 2014-04-13 19:52:29 <chichov> and thank you for pointing out that I better take a break
2050 2014-04-13 19:52:43 <vetch> eh, you were only off by one.
2051 2014-04-13 19:53:03 <chichov> nah, wasn't just an off-by-one
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2053 2014-04-13 19:53:58 <vetch> it was an attempt at a poor joke.
2054 2014-04-13 19:54:27 <chichov> considering what I just brought up, I don't know if I should laugh or cry
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2056 2014-04-13 19:55:04 <chichov> btw, are the strict encoding flags now always set?
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2079 2014-04-13 20:14:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wait, why doesn't it just check for exactly 33 or 65?
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2084 2014-04-13 20:20:13 <vetch> michagogo|cloud: ask sipa, he wrote it.
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2087 2014-04-13 20:24:20 <airbreather> michagogo|cloud, just guessing, but maybe so that they can say "Non-canonical public key: too short" instead of "Non-canonical public key: not 33 or 65 bytes"?
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2089 2014-04-13 20:26:13 <gmaxwell> It makes perfect sense.
2090 2014-04-13 20:26:42 <gmaxwell> There needs to be an initial test to make sure the length is not 0, lest the later byte reads would read out of bounds.
2091 2014-04-13 20:27:14 <airbreather> !(size() == 33 || size() == 65)
2092 2014-04-13 20:27:15 <gribble> Error: "(size()" is not a valid command.
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2094 2014-04-13 20:28:21 <gmaxwell> yes that would also be correct, but there is nothing wrong with the code as it is— even with that initial test instead you still need to have comparisons with 33 and 65 after reading the flag.
2095 2014-04-13 20:28:35 <airbreather> agreed there's nothing wrong with the code as-is
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2097 2014-04-13 20:29:36 * airbreather makes a note to clamp shut when discussions start to border on the trivial side of things
2098 2014-04-13 20:29:54 <gmaxwell> k.
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2111 2014-04-13 20:40:47 <phantomcircuit> airbreather, it's what you get when you're iterating the rules
2112 2014-04-13 20:41:05 <phantomcircuit> ie you're sitting there trying to think of what the rules are rather than knowing what they are and writing them down
2113 2014-04-13 20:42:10 <gmaxwell> That isn't the case there.
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2115 2014-04-13 20:42:39 <sipa> chichov: that statement could be reduced to "vchPubKey.size() < 1" instead, as we need to read the first flag byte; this make it just a little stronger by covering a case that is handled further too
2116 2014-04-13 20:44:13 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol http://www.forbes.com/pictures/elld45eemkm/amir-taaki-25/
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2118 2014-04-13 20:45:11 <netg_> One day Amir may be the CEO of Bitcoin.
2119 2014-04-13 20:45:18 <chichov> sipa: alright, thanks
2120 2014-04-13 20:45:28 <chichov> thumbs up for making the code more developer friendly
2121 2014-04-13 20:46:00 <sipa> wumpus: present?
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2123 2014-04-13 20:47:03 <chichov> one thing strikes me as odd, there is no check in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.h#L435 to verify whether the operation that "pc" points to is indeed a valid opcode
2124 2014-04-13 20:47:39 <chichov> one could simply pass something like 0x4A as an opcode and, as far as the method is concerned, it'd be happy
2125 2014-04-13 20:47:48 <chichov> are these checks done anywhere else?
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2127 2014-04-13 20:48:23 <sipa> sure
2128 2014-04-13 20:48:28 <sipa> it only decodes an operation
2129 2014-04-13 20:48:30 <airbreather> chichov: 0x4a is "push the next 74 bytes of data onto the stack" I believe
2130 2014-04-13 20:48:38 <sipa> if the opcode itself doesn't exist, it will fail to execute
2131 2014-04-13 20:48:43 <sipa> but execution is done elesewhere
2132 2014-04-13 20:50:05 <airbreather> chichov: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp#L951-L952 deals with a lot of it... also https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp#L339-L354
2133 2014-04-13 20:50:06 <chichov> airbreather: true, my bad
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2136 2014-04-13 20:51:36 <chichov> sipa: yea, the execution should then fail
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2138 2014-04-13 20:52:17 <chichov> airbreather: thanks, I'll look into that
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2260 2014-04-13 23:05:46 kristov has joined
2261 2014-04-13 23:06:15 <kristov> If I want to help test compatibility between future versions of Bitcoin core and a particular linux distro, where do I get started?
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2265 2014-04-13 23:11:06 <sipa> kristov: that sounds like a contradiction.. you can't test things that do not exist
2266 2014-04-13 23:11:34 <sipa> kristov: though you're very welco!e to beta test release candidates
2267 2014-04-13 23:11:42 lclc has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2268 2014-04-13 23:11:54 <sipa> or help identify compatibility problems through dependencies
2269 2014-04-13 23:11:56 <kristov> ssipa: sorry, I guess a better question is, where do I get started learning how to acquire and, if necessary, compile the candidate versions?
2270 2014-04-13 23:12:16 <sipa> well if you compile them yourself, they won't be incompatible usually
2271 2014-04-13 23:13:01 <kristov> I'm particularly interested in Tails linux, which I'm genuinely not sure how to compile stuff for since a lot of the dev tools are stripped out of it
2272 2014-04-13 23:14:02 <sipa> sorry, never heard of that
2273 2014-04-13 23:14:03 <kristov> Bitcoin-Qt 0.8.6 worked with Tails, but 0.9.0 didn't, so I'd like to provide testing feedback.
2274 2014-04-13 23:14:31 <kristov> no worries, the compiling stuff is probably a better question for #tails
2275 2014-04-13 23:14:45 <kristov> where do I find the most "current" release candidate for bitcoin core?
2276 2014-04-13 23:15:00 <sipa> i think you're a bit confused
2277 2014-04-13 23:15:03 <sipa> let me explain
2278 2014-04-13 23:15:08 <kristov> thanks :)
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2280 2014-04-13 23:15:28 <sipa> there is a difference between binary incompatibility and source incompatibility
2281 2014-04-13 23:15:53 <sipa> for example, the 0.9 linux release binary does not work on many older distros
2282 2014-04-13 23:16:19 <sipa> because it requires some symbols that are only present in more recent x libraries
2283 2014-04-13 23:16:51 <sipa> c libraries
2284 2014-04-13 23:17:05 <kristov> is it possible to statically link those libraries?
2285 2014-04-13 23:17:10 <sipa> yes
2286 2014-04-13 23:17:33 <sipa> but that also means problems like hwartbleed become worse
2287 2014-04-13 23:17:46 <sipa> as just updating your system openssl will not fix bitcoin
2288 2014-04-13 23:17:58 <kristov> truth :(
2289 2014-04-13 23:18:09 <sipa> another problem is soirce incompatibility
2290 2014-04-13 23:18:29 <sipa> for example, you can't build bitcoin today on fedora trivially
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2292 2014-04-13 23:18:47 <sipa> as its openssl library has the elliptic curve that bitcoin uses stripped out
2293 2014-04-13 23:19:41 <sipa> if you are talking about future releases, you can't test binary compatibiloty, as we don't have release binaries for those yet
2294 2014-04-13 23:20:05 <warren> are you pushing the not-enabled-by-default libsecp?
2295 2014-04-13 23:20:42 <sipa> you could try building the current 'master' branch, but if you build it, it will certainly work on your system (in case of no bugs of course)
2296 2014-04-13 23:20:43 <kristov> by what means do you produce the binaries?
2297 2014-04-13 23:21:08 <warren> kristov: http://gitian.org/
2298 2014-04-13 23:21:19 <kristov> oh right, gitian
2299 2014-04-13 23:21:22 <kristov> thanks warren
2300 2014-04-13 23:21:31 <sipa> the question you seem to want is testing release-like binaries from the current source
2301 2014-04-13 23:21:39 <sipa> for that, indeed, gitian
2302 2014-04-13 23:21:57 <sipa> warren: little time for anything
2303 2014-04-13 23:22:03 <warren> I'm getting nightly builds from gitian up soon
2304 2014-04-13 23:22:26 <warren> I'm going to include 4042 in those builds so people test it more.
2305 2014-04-13 23:22:32 <sipa> warren: but i would like libsecp available in 0.10 source (but disabled in release binaries)
2306 2014-04-13 23:22:39 <sipa> 4042?
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2308 2014-04-13 23:22:54 <warren> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4042
2309 2014-04-13 23:23:20 <warren> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4049 would it be wrong to update configure.ac along with this?
2310 2014-04-13 23:24:07 <kristov> sipa: are gitian builds typically only made available when pushing out a final release?
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2312 2014-04-13 23:24:30 <kristov> e.g. 0.8.6, 0.9.0, 0.9.1
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2314 2014-04-13 23:24:45 <sipa> kristov: well, "made available" is not really relevant.. anyone can run gitian at any time to oibtain binaries
2315 2014-04-13 23:24:56 <warren> kristov: anyone can make a gitian build of anything, and soon I will have nightly gitian builds for download
2316 2014-04-13 23:25:10 <sipa> but it's only for release candidates and releases that people are actually asked to produce and verify builds
2317 2014-04-13 23:25:32 <kristov> warren: cool, so presumably I could download those and provide feedback about whether they run properly on a particular linux distro?
2318 2014-04-13 23:26:03 <sipa> kristov: #4042 will make the binaries compatible with more systems
2319 2014-04-13 23:26:17 <sipa> kristov: but such changes actually happen very very rarely
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2324 2014-04-13 23:26:52 <sipa> 0.9 was an exception as the entire build system was rewritten
2325 2014-04-13 23:28:43 <kristov> sipa: that's great, I hope that 4042 gets implemented soon despite how often they typically happen. my main concern is that no one seemed to notice the break for older linux distros until after 0.9 was released, and there's no apparent heartbleed fix for 0.8.x, so I'd like to provide this feedback earlier in the process. does that make sense?
2326 2014-04-13 23:29:15 <sipa> kristov: #4042 is a pull request... it is already implemented
2327 2014-04-13 23:29:34 <kristov> sorry, i meant I hope that it is provided as a binary soon.
2328 2014-04-13 23:30:05 <sipa> kristov: seems warren's daily gitian builds is exactly what yku are looking for
2329 2014-04-13 23:30:18 <warren> i got stuck on the gitian mac builds
2330 2014-04-13 23:30:20 <kristov> that's great news.
2331 2014-04-13 23:30:38 <sipa> alao, 0.8 is much less vulnerable to heartbleed
2332 2014-04-13 23:30:48 <kristov> oh?
2333 2014-04-13 23:30:59 <warren> it's not vulnerable unless you enable RPC SSL which almost nobody uses
2334 2014-04-13 23:31:05 <sipa> only if you have a statically linked binary, and enable rpcssl manually and expose it to the internet
2335 2014-04-13 23:31:09 <kristov> ahh, interesting.
2336 2014-04-13 23:31:32 <sipa> 0.9 gui has the payment protocol, which also opens vulnerabilities
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2338 2014-04-13 23:32:10 <kristov> am I correct in saying that https://bitcoin.org/bin/0.8.6/bitcoin-0.8.6-linux.tar.gz is not statically linked?
2339 2014-04-13 23:32:48 <sipa> i'm unsure whether its openssl is statically linked or not
2340 2014-04-13 23:33:00 <warren> it is
2341 2014-04-13 23:33:12 <warren> it contains openssl provided by lucid, static linked
2342 2014-04-13 23:33:17 <sipa> can you unpack it, and run 'ldd bitcoind'?
2343 2014-04-13 23:33:20 <sipa> ok
2344 2014-04-13 23:33:28 <warren> hmm, lucid's openssl might be too old to be vulnerable
2345 2014-04-13 23:34:26 <warren> it's 0.9.8
2346 2014-04-13 23:34:31 <sipa> ah!
2347 2014-04-13 23:34:40 <kristov> w00t
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2349 2014-04-13 23:34:56 <warren> So 0.9.0 would have not been vulnerable if they stuck with lucid for that release.
2350 2014-04-13 23:35:13 <warren> which also would have delayed the incompatible binary problem
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2352 2014-04-13 23:36:14 <kristov> It sounds to me like heartbleed would have only affected the users who download the linux binaries for the short period between using 0.8.6 and 0.9.1
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2354 2014-04-13 23:38:28 <warren> sipa: what exactly should we do about 4049?
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2363 2014-04-13 23:43:50 <sipa> warren: first fix the version string generation
2364 2014-04-13 23:44:09 <sipa> s/fix/implement the suggested change/
2365 2014-04-13 23:44:54 * sipa zzz
2366 2014-04-13 23:45:06 <kristov> sipa: for 0.8.6: ldd bitcoind     linux-gate.so.1 =>  (0xb77b4000)     libz.so.1 => /lib/i386-linux-gnu/libz.so.1 (0xb778b000)     libdl.so.2 => /lib/i386-linux-gnu/libdl.so.2 (0xb7786000)     libpthread.so.0 => /lib/i386-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0 (0xb776a000)     libstdc++.so.6 => /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6 (0xb7685000)     libm.so.6 => /lib/i386-linux-gnu/libm.so.6 (0xb7659000)     libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/i386-linux-
2367 2014-04-13 23:45:48 <kristov> warren: how can I find out when your nightly gitian builds will be available?
2368 2014-04-13 23:46:04 <warren> kristov: watch the bitcoin dev list
2369 2014-04-13 23:46:25 <kristov> what's your username there?
2370 2014-04-13 23:47:22 <warren> that doesn't matter
2371 2014-04-13 23:47:25 <warren> just watch the list
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2373 2014-04-13 23:47:37 <kristov> will do, thx
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2379 2014-04-13 23:54:53 <kristov> warren: can I ascertain the openssl version that is statically linked in the 086 binary based on the ldd output I pasted?
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2382 2014-04-13 23:57:36 <LoRez> kristov: ldd only shows the dynamic links
2383 2014-04-13 23:58:14 <kristov> LoRez: ah, ok
2384 2014-04-13 23:59:05 <LoRez> does bitcoin core do tls heartbeats?
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