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151 2014-04-15 02:49:41 <GAit> How do you envision people being able to send funds to known others without reusing addresses? The logistic of obtaining new unique address and the compromises in terms of privacy/decentralization
152 2014-04-15 02:51:02 <warren> Given a git annotated tag (-a or -s), is there a command that will give you the git hash of the commit that was taggeD?
153 2014-04-15 02:52:22 <gmaxwell> GAit: (1) improve those logistics, for reoccuring payments (2) start giving people extended public keys so they can generate more addresses on their own.
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155 2014-04-15 02:53:44 <GAit> gmaxwell: if people have my master public, how do i know which addresses they have generated, can it be done in a distributed fashion without having to ask them for their unique branch?
156 2014-04-15 02:53:52 <gmaxwell> there is a (3) for broadcast payments (e.g. anonymous donations where there is no two way communication) there is a technique where people can generate new addresses for you which are only distinguishable as yours by you... but it has some challenges. (scanning for payments is computaitonally expensive)
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158 2014-04-15 02:54:18 <warren> The best I can figure out is git rev-parse HEAD^ == git rev-parse TAGNAME^ (the hash of the commit before both HEAD and TAGNAME is equal). but I can't find a command that outputs the commit that was tagged.
159 2014-04-15 02:54:49 <gmaxwell> GAit: you always give them a branch, and they they generate more for you, in order. And you just scan a limited depth forward. If they go and jump a billion addresses down the chain, well, thats their own problem, as far as you're concerned they haven't paid you.
160 2014-04-15 02:55:34 <GAit> isn't generating a branch for them as much work as generating addresses for everyone in terms of protocol, even if more efficent I guess?
161 2014-04-15 02:57:29 <gmaxwell> I don't follow what you're saying. This lets you give someone one piece of information and they can pay you repeadily without reusing addresses, thats all.
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164 2014-04-15 02:58:44 <gmaxwell> it does not address broadcast acceptance, but broadcast acceptance is actually a very specialized case which has a bunch of considerations. E.g. say you use a single static address that you announce and people send you funds without communicating. I see someone sent you some funds, so then I rush over to you and say "see, I paid you for that car you were selling, hand it over"
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166 2014-04-15 02:59:00 <GAit> gmaxwell: sorry I wasn't clear. I'm just thinking outloud that if I want people to be able to find me and pay me via some directory that provides branches having this directory privde directly new addresses doesn't seem a massive different from a business result point of view, of course giving out branches is more efficent and requires less server requests
167 2014-04-15 03:00:01 <GAit> and either way the server knows about all addresses
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169 2014-04-15 03:01:37 <gmaxwell> well it's perhaps partially a UI issue, really what giving someone a branch says is "you can pay me multiple times and I'll do something sensible" where as there is really no promise for reuse with an address. With an address maybe its swept right away and the private key is destroyed.
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171 2014-04-15 03:02:23 <gmaxwell> in some cases you may want a party to make reoccuring payments to you, a popular example is a mining pool. For security reasons some mining pools will lock an address to an account... but using a single address forces them to reuse. Better to give them a branch.
172 2014-04-15 03:02:34 <GAit> assuming the UI would either way create or use a new address this is a technical point not an UI anymore right?
173 2014-04-15 03:04:12 <GAit> can't there be a federated system maybe built on top of xmpp or something that provides new addresses as requested based on some signed detail ( i was reading about email signature DKIM with webfist)
174 2014-04-15 03:04:51 <GAit> or is giving out master and branches the best solution?
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176 2014-04-15 03:06:29 <gmaxwell> GAit: it could but then you have to make a connection out whenever you want to pay, and now the user is dependant on an always online service to give out addresses for it.
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178 2014-04-15 03:07:14 <gmaxwell> if I tell some mining pool person that he has to connect out to a server to fetch an address his response might be instead to just only support static addresses. :( because of crap like the server is down and now you have to gracefully handle the timeouts.
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180 2014-04-15 03:07:39 <GAit> both system can co exists but yeah sounds like branch would handle much better network issues
181 2014-04-15 03:08:25 <GAit> maybe there is some distributed yet private solution
182 2014-04-15 03:08:56 <GAit> and redandant
183 2014-04-15 03:09:02 <GAit> oh yeah webfist is redundant
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185 2014-04-15 03:09:56 <GAit> but how do you deal with the branches without centralization and without requiring people to send you the branch
186 2014-04-15 03:10:02 <GAit> and without losing on privacy all over
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193 2014-04-15 03:13:55 <GAit> gmaxwell: what if the branches are random and kept encrypted on the blockchain as OP_RETURN <data> ?
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199 2014-04-15 03:16:09 <GAit> I'm not sure it's a good idea to store data on the blockchain but i saw the functionality added and i wondered while thinking :)
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202 2014-04-15 03:17:18 <gmaxwell> GAit: doesn't make any sense.
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208 2014-04-15 03:20:06 <GAit> i'm sure i skipped a lot of steps: webfist if i understood correctly allows anyone to use independently verify that an email came from you. In this way you can easily publish a master public, which is kept encrypted on various distributed servers, if i understood correctly it is kept encrypted by email address so that anyone that has it can ask for it but the servers can't read them.
209 2014-04-15 03:21:07 <GAit> So i can find one of these distributed servers, ask for some hash i guess of email x@z.k, get this blob, decrypt it, read master and verify email was signed by google and push a new random branch into the blockchain encrypted with your public key such that you can scan the blockchain and find them all and decrypt them only yourself
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211 2014-04-15 03:24:43 <GAit> Does it make less sense than before? :)
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232 2014-04-15 03:47:20 <warren> git rev-list -1 TAGNAME
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266 2014-04-15 04:04:47 <warren> two of my testnet nodes are stuck on block 224679
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287 2014-04-15 04:21:11 <ajwja> hey folks. are they any docs out there that talk about how to run the tests in qa/rpc-tests?
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331 2014-04-15 05:29:55 <warren> hno: you still have your blocks, index and chainstate from the time your testnet node failed recently?
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355 2014-04-15 06:04:34 <megaworm> I am starting a new pool similar to blackcoinpool.com. I am looking for experienced pool operators who would like to partner with me. I am a designer/frontend developer with experience in branding and marketing. Please contact me via PM or email wearesatoshifoundation@gmail.com for more details.
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365 2014-04-15 06:25:17 <hno> warren, maybe.
366 2014-04-15 06:26:04 <hno> in that aI do have a copy, but about the same time the node did realize it was down a long stale fork.
367 2014-04-15 06:26:31 <hno> didn't seem to recover however.
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432 2014-04-15 07:37:40 <warren> wumpus: there's a drawback to getting version from configure.ac instead of the previous tag
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434 2014-04-15 07:38:07 <warren> wumpus: that long string built from previous tag, count of commits and short hash actually was a valid git identifier before.
435 2014-04-15 07:38:19 <wumpus> warren: not worth worrying about, the definitive version info should be only in one place
436 2014-04-15 07:38:39 <wumpus> (and making configure.ac that place makes sense because it already works, also without git)
437 2014-04-15 07:39:01 <wumpus> well if you include the git hash, that's a valid identifier too
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440 2014-04-15 07:39:10 <warren> okay. I'm removing "g" as a prefix from the fake short hash because it isn't a valid git identifier anymore.
441 2014-04-15 07:39:17 <splitting> im having some trouble using bitcoin and python
442 2014-04-15 07:39:27 <splitting> trying to make an api call to the bitcoin daemon
443 2014-04-15 07:39:32 <splitting> but i keep getting connection refused
444 2014-04-15 07:39:36 <wumpus> okay then you need to copy part of the thing instead of the whole thing but that's a small inconvenience
445 2014-04-15 07:39:47 <wumpus> I've always found the 'g' prefix strange
446 2014-04-15 07:40:45 <splitting> wumpus, i remember you from yesterday or the day before
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450 2014-04-15 07:44:09 <wumpus> splitting: if you get connection refused there can really be only one reason, it is not bound to that port
451 2014-04-15 07:44:23 <wumpus> splitting: try netstat -anp to see what ports the daemon is bound to
452 2014-04-15 07:44:57 <hno> splitting, is the daemon listening?
453 2014-04-15 07:45:04 <splitting> hold on
454 2014-04-15 07:45:27 <splitting> i have rpcport=8332 in my bitcoin.conf
455 2014-04-15 07:45:31 <splitting> and im checking now
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457 2014-04-15 07:45:52 <hno> splitting, what address are you trying to connect to?
458 2014-04-15 07:46:01 <splitting> localhost
459 2014-04-15 07:46:09 <splitting> 127.0.0.1
460 2014-04-15 07:46:15 <hno> should work.
461 2014-04-15 07:46:25 HANTI is now known as hanti
462 2014-04-15 07:46:59 <sipa> splitting: on localhost, or remotely?
463 2014-04-15 07:47:08 <splitting> on localhost
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466 2014-04-15 07:49:03 <warren> hno: what version of bitcoin were you using when testnet got stuck?
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468 2014-04-15 07:49:34 <splitting> self.walletProxy = ServiceProxy(http://user:pass@127.0.0.1:8332)
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470 2014-04-15 07:51:10 <splitting> any ideas?
471 2014-04-15 07:51:24 <wumpus> what if you poke the port with nc or telnet?
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477 2014-04-15 07:56:09 <splitting> nvm got it
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484 2014-04-15 08:00:28 <warren> hno: did your testnet sync fix on restart or if you downgrade to 0.9.0 or 0.9.1?
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529 2014-04-15 08:57:49 <warren> http://nightly.bitcoin.it/
530 2014-04-15 08:57:56 <warren> https://github.com/nightlybitcoin/bitcoin/commits/0.9.99.0-20140415-74dd52a
531 2014-04-15 08:58:04 <warren> reproducible builds from the matching tag
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571 2014-04-15 10:08:04 <warren> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=571414 Unofficial nightly builds
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574 2014-04-15 10:09:11 <hno> warren, I deleted testnet3 and let the note resync from start. I do have a backup of the old testnet3 folder but have not yet verified that the problem got captured.
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576 2014-04-15 10:10:49 <hno> the node was running 0.8.6 at the time, and restart or upgrade to 0.9.0 did not help.
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578 2014-04-15 10:14:13 <warren> hno: thanks, that's very helpful to know
579 2014-04-15 10:14:18 <warren> wumpus: ^^
580 2014-04-15 10:14:38 <warren> hno: at the point where it got stuck, did you see incoming orphaned blocks after it?
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585 2014-04-15 10:19:14 <jtimon> mhhm, ./src/bitcoind and curl -H "Content-Type: application/json" -X POST -d '{"method":"getinfo"}' http://user:password@127.0.0.1:8332
586 2014-04-15 10:19:14 <jtimon> works just fine, but I'm not able to do the same with bitcoind -regtest and curl -H "Content-Type: application/json" -X POST -d '{"method":"getinfo"}' http://user:password@127.0.0.1:18444
587 2014-04-15 10:19:14 <jtimon> also tried without user:pass
588 2014-04-15 10:19:14 <jtimon> any ideas? what am I doing wrong?
589 2014-04-15 10:20:32 <warren> I know for a fact that regtest RPC works.
590 2014-04-15 10:21:30 <hno> warren, just when I made a backup it gave a "long fork detected" message, indicating the block it was stuck on and the then current block.
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597 2014-04-15 10:23:59 <nederhoed> Hi there, we discussed yesterday about bitcoin PPA for Ubuntu Saucy i386 that failed. Is there any news about restarting the build process, for example?
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599 2014-04-15 10:25:12 <jtimon> thank you warren I must be doing something wrong, I'm getting "curl: (52) Empty reply from server" also tried deleting the regtest folder...
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611 2014-04-15 10:34:01 <sipa> jtimon: does it work when you try through bitcoin-cli?
612 2014-04-15 10:35:26 <jtimon> sipa, yep, "bitcoin-cli -regtest getinfo" works fine as well
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614 2014-04-15 10:36:43 <jtimon> but I want to make http calls from python after I get it to work with curl
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621 2014-04-15 10:47:23 <random_cat_> re: Why are we bleeding nodes?: my personal experience agrees with ffj -- RAM is the key factor. I can no longer run a node in AWS EC2 micro unless dedicated to node. node must run swap. this seems silly, but i haven't the cycles to investigate
622 2014-04-15 10:48:16 <sipa> how much ram does a micro instance have?
623 2014-04-15 10:48:26 <random_cat_> 600K
624 2014-04-15 10:48:50 <sipa> M, i hope?
625 2014-04-15 10:48:50 <warren> K?
626 2014-04-15 10:51:01 <warren> It's below the 640K memory limit set by Gates. =P
627 2014-04-15 10:51:12 draaaaa has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
628 2014-04-15 10:51:16 <random_cat_> yes, M. my 'small system' fingers typed the wrong prefix
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666 2014-04-15 11:47:10 <vetch> random_cat_: are you disabling the wallet? that saves some memory.
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771 2014-04-15 13:44:35 <AmThatsMe> Hi everyone !
772 2014-04-15 13:44:39 JackH has joined
773 2014-04-15 13:45:59 <AmThatsMe> how should i approach testing network communication between nodes ? lets say i added changed the processing of a the "inv" message. how should i debug it ?
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778 2014-04-15 13:51:03 <sipa> if it interferes with block validation/propagation/convergence, matt's comparison tool will likely catch it
779 2014-04-15 13:51:12 JackH has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
780 2014-04-15 13:53:22 <AmThatsMe> sipa: that was for me ?
781 2014-04-15 13:53:28 <sipa> yes
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787 2014-04-15 13:57:20 <AmThatsMe> sipa: i meant in a more general sense, debugging network message processing. Lets say i added a new message, how can i check that my code works ? start some nodes on the test net and start sending messages between them ? or there is a better way?
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790 2014-04-15 13:58:56 <sipa> AmThatsMe: that depends on what kind of message it is, but yes
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795 2014-04-15 14:03:27 <AmThatsMe> sipa: i want to play with auto checkpoint sync (implemented in aurora coin), for that i need to add a new message, i.e, "checkpoint". Should i debug it just by starting 2 nodes and sending the message from one to the other ?
796 2014-04-15 14:03:44 kermit has joined
797 2014-04-15 14:03:59 <Luke-Jr> AmThatsMe: this is #bitcoin-dev , for BITCOIN development.
798 2014-04-15 14:04:02 <sipa> AmThatsMe: i just threw up a little
799 2014-04-15 14:04:10 <Luke-Jr> sipa: >_<
800 2014-04-15 14:04:12 <sipa> AmThatsMe: please do not ever suggest something so centralizing here
801 2014-04-15 14:04:22 phrackage has joined
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803 2014-04-15 14:05:08 <sipa> (we want to get rid of checkpoints entire, among other reasons because it incorrectly makes people think it improves security)
804 2014-04-15 14:05:12 <sipa> *entirely
805 2014-04-15 14:07:28 <AmThatsMe> sorry !! :) ... thats why i said "play with", just because i saw the code and it is already implemented. I am not suggesting its an improvement, just my way of learning better the code.
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807 2014-04-15 14:08:18 <sipa> well, a change like that is very tricky, as it changes the consensus model
808 2014-04-15 14:08:38 <sipa> not simply a change to the p2p protocol
809 2014-04-15 14:08:39 <AmThatsMe> Just want to understand better how network debugging is done on the testnet
810 2014-04-15 14:08:41 ArthurNumba2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
811 2014-04-15 14:08:59 <sipa> to compare: the adding of the ping/pong message at no point threatened network consensus
812 2014-04-15 14:09:15 <sipa> it's purely something that affects the communication between two specific peers
813 2014-04-15 14:09:59 <AmThatsMe> It's a pure technical attempt to understand better how things work. If it makes any difference, lets say i want to add Ping2 message
814 2014-04-15 14:10:09 <sipa> ok
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816 2014-04-15 14:10:32 <sipa> things like -debug=net will help
817 2014-04-15 14:10:42 <sipa> and testnet-in-a-box
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821 2014-04-15 14:11:00 <sipa> i believe there's a wireshark decoder module for bitcoin
822 2014-04-15 14:12:33 ArthurNumba2 has joined
823 2014-04-15 14:13:04 <sipa> implementing the change in other p2p implementations (there's a python node implementation, for example) may help as well
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831 2014-04-15 14:15:58 <AmThatsMe> sipa: thanks for the help !! sorry if i made a newbie impression, but hi, i'm a newbie :)
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836 2014-04-15 14:23:00 <GAit> sipa: do you know much about webfist & webfinger?
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840 2014-04-15 14:24:25 <sipa> GAit: never heard of those
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844 2014-04-15 14:25:33 <GAit> WebFist uses DKIM-signed email to prove you are the owner of an email and then uses some decentralized system to keep whatever you published encrypted and available by some token hash(like your email)
845 2014-04-15 14:25:37 maraoz has joined
846 2014-04-15 14:25:55 <GAit> could be used to publish a master public for bip0032
847 2014-04-15 14:26:05 daemon has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
848 2014-04-15 14:26:37 <sipa> that's just as bad as publishing a single address
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850 2014-04-15 14:26:56 <sipa> as others can still identify all your transactions
851 2014-04-15 14:27:09 <GAit> not really, they need to know the branch used
852 2014-04-15 14:27:24 <GAit> and as far as i know you can use gaps in a distributed manner without risking to reuse addresses
853 2014-04-15 14:27:33 <sipa> that's very very little entropy, and not intended to be secure
854 2014-04-15 14:27:35 <GAit> can't*
855 2014-04-15 14:27:44 <sipa> seriously, don't share your address with the world
856 2014-04-15 14:27:54 <sipa> whether that address is a single key, or a master public key
857 2014-04-15 14:28:24 <GAit> maybe i'm confused but if the branch has enough entropy isn't this the same as BIP0032 private derivation?
858 2014-04-15 14:28:28 <sipa> you seem to misunderstand why "reuse" it bad... because it allows linking your transactions together
859 2014-04-15 14:28:48 <sipa> if you publish your entire public master, that is hardly made any more difficulty
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861 2014-04-15 14:30:08 <sipa> by entropy here i mean the amount of information another needs to guess to see transactions link together
862 2014-04-15 14:30:25 <sipa> that's just branch numbers and key numbers beneath it... at most a few bits of data
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866 2014-04-15 14:30:33 <GAit> if the branch path is say 128 bits, how can you correlate?
867 2014-04-15 14:31:07 <sipa> not, but why do you want branches of 128 bits? the receiver will never detect those
868 2014-04-15 14:31:15 <sipa> unless you tell them which branch to use
869 2014-04-15 14:31:16 <GAit> well, let me get there
870 2014-04-15 14:31:30 <sipa> in which case you're much better off using the payment protocol, with a signed identity
871 2014-04-15 14:31:39 <sipa> instead of trying to use the public master key as an identity
872 2014-04-15 14:32:18 <GAit> the payment protocol requires some service to be up, as far as I know it wouldn't be distributed
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876 2014-04-15 14:32:22 <GAit> anyway, my next point was going to be
877 2014-04-15 14:32:23 <sipa> yes
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879 2014-04-15 14:32:39 <sipa> you need someone to be 'up' if you need to tell them or ask them which branch to use!
880 2014-04-15 14:32:58 <GAit> what if the user has this public master, generates a random branch with enough entropy and then encrypts it with your public and puts in the blockchain as prunable data. It may be a bad idea but for the sake of curiousity i would like to discuss it
881 2014-04-15 14:33:14 <sipa> don't use the blockchain for private data communication
882 2014-04-15 14:33:18 <sipa> there's no point
883 2014-04-15 14:33:40 <sipa> you're basically reinventing stealth addresses
884 2014-04-15 14:33:51 <sipa> which also require out-of-band communication
885 2014-04-15 14:33:52 <GAit> oh, i didn't study those yet
886 2014-04-15 14:34:00 <sipa> and they're incompatible with SPV
887 2014-04-15 14:34:34 <sipa> imho, it's a slightly regrettable but inevitability that people will use third party services to receive coins anyway
888 2014-04-15 14:34:50 <sipa> which simplifies technicalities so much
889 2014-04-15 14:35:08 AmThatsMe has quit (Quit: AmThatsMe)
890 2014-04-15 14:35:47 <sipa> (you can just use a url to pay, you have instant support for refunds/memo's/comments, you don't spam the blockchain, you don't need to scan for transactions, and except for the coin-accepting service you have perfect privacy)
891 2014-04-15 14:36:15 <GAit> yeah that's how we implemented the donation buttons, generate a new P2SH with new keys in the 2of2, but i can't stop thinking of a way to make it secure, private and distributed so we don't have to have our own thing
892 2014-04-15 14:36:17 <vetch> sipa: didn't gmaxwell have a way of getting around that? "bloom bait" I think it was called
893 2014-04-15 14:36:43 <GAit> sipa: urls is fine but i have to be around to give it to yuou
894 2014-04-15 14:36:49 <GAit> or have some third party handle that for me
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896 2014-04-15 14:38:01 <sipa> vetch: just compromising privacy somewhat and making it equally less expensive for SPV (afaik, i'll let him comment to be sure)
897 2014-04-15 14:39:04 <GAit> anyway, should there be a standard ways for these coin-accepting third parties to give out addresses?
898 2014-04-15 14:39:43 <GAit> assuming they are the compromise and you don't give our your master public (which was what gmaxwell was suggesting yesterday)
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900 2014-04-15 14:41:03 <Luke-Jr> GAit: addresses are basically deprecated by the payment protocol ;)
901 2014-04-15 14:41:47 <sipa> GAit: we need some delegation support in the payment protocol for that (i believe mike was working on that), so the third party knows a chain extended public key to give out keys, and signs them with a certificate issued by the owner of the chain that they're authoritzed to do so
902 2014-04-15 14:41:52 <Luke-Jr> should be able to generate payment requests as a file
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904 2014-04-15 14:42:51 <GAit> sipa: that's nice to know. So I guess the 'payment protocol' won't be used for commercial payments only but in general between parties as mean to exchange btc like we do today with addresses?
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906 2014-04-15 14:43:07 <sipa> GAit: that is certainly my hope, but we're a long way from that
907 2014-04-15 14:43:13 <Michail1> Strange. I get to work. Fire up the computers. 3 of them that have the bitcoin-qt client on them are stated an error. I said ok, nothing loading. Trying to Fire back up and get.... Error opening block database. Do you want to rebuild the block database now? I could understand one computer, but all three?
908 2014-04-15 14:43:16 <sipa> i'd certainly like to see people help pushing for that
909 2014-04-15 14:43:31 <sipa> Michail1: which version?
910 2014-04-15 14:43:35 <Michail1> 8.6
911 2014-04-15 14:43:43 <vetch> Michail1: did you copy the databases while they were running?
912 2014-04-15 14:43:49 <Michail1> nope.
913 2014-04-15 14:43:50 <Luke-Jr> Michail1: did you ever run 0.9?
914 2014-04-15 14:43:58 <Luke-Jr> also, 0.8.6 is not 8.6
915 2014-04-15 14:44:22 <Michail1> Luke-Jr - I ran .9 on my laptop for about 5 mins a couple of weeks ago. Didn't like it and reverted. However, the other 2 computers have never seen .9
916 2014-04-15 14:44:35 <sipa> strange
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918 2014-04-15 14:44:44 <Luke-Jr> Michail1: 0.9 release notes did make it clear that you can't just revert :p
919 2014-04-15 14:44:55 <sipa> what did you not like about 0.9?
920 2014-04-15 14:44:58 <Michail1> Understood. would explain 1 computer, but all three?
921 2014-04-15 14:45:06 <sipa> yeah, i can't explain that
922 2014-04-15 14:45:13 <Luke-Jr> solar flare targetted you? <.<
923 2014-04-15 14:45:14 <Michail1> sipa - Ohhhh, I posted many reasons why I didnt like 9.
924 2014-04-15 14:45:25 <Michail1> Luke-Jr - Maybe, the blood moon got me.
925 2014-04-15 14:45:45 <Luke-Jr> I don't think the moon can cause things like this..
926 2014-04-15 14:45:46 <vetch> what's not to "like" about 0.9? there's really no visible differences
927 2014-04-15 14:45:52 <Michail1> bitcoin was running fine on laptop until I got to work.
928 2014-04-15 14:45:54 <Luke-Jr> vetch: there sure are
929 2014-04-15 14:46:01 <Michail1> vetch - looks again.
930 2014-04-15 14:46:06 <Luke-Jr> Michail1: do you have antivirus software?
931 2014-04-15 14:46:09 <Michail1> "look"
932 2014-04-15 14:46:26 <vetch> oh you mean with the GUI?
933 2014-04-15 14:46:30 <Michail1> Luke-Jr - yes. norton 360 on laptop. corp edition norton on work computers.
934 2014-04-15 14:46:40 <Luke-Jr> vetch: ⦠only the GUI has visible looks :P
935 2014-04-15 14:46:43 <Michail1> vetch - Well, you said "visible"
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938 2014-04-15 14:46:48 <Luke-Jr> Michail1: it probably deleted the index
939 2014-04-15 14:46:57 <vetch> "tangible" differences then.
940 2014-04-15 14:47:00 <Michail1> Luke-Jr - On all three computers? checking
941 2014-04-15 14:47:06 <Luke-Jr> Michail1: it's the same AV software..
942 2014-04-15 14:47:17 <Luke-Jr> Michail1: to clarify, it probably deleted *parts* of the index
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944 2014-04-15 14:47:57 <Apocalyptic> <Luke-Jr> I don't think the moon can cause things like this.. << the moon can do powerfull things
945 2014-04-15 14:47:57 <vetch> Michail1: someone stuffed some strings that antivirus uses for detection in the blcokchain. the blocks themselves are ignored because the virus suites don't like large files. the indexes are small enough for them to scan and delete.
946 2014-04-15 14:48:25 <Michail1> norton notifies if there is an issue. nothing in quarentine.
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948 2014-04-15 14:48:33 <Michail1> all block files are there.
949 2014-04-15 14:48:40 <vetch> indexes are the issue
950 2014-04-15 14:49:06 <Michail1> last 132 touched 15 mins ago.
951 2014-04-15 14:49:31 <Michail1> Saw that it wanted to rebuild. logged into work computer, started bitcoin client, and same thing.
952 2014-04-15 14:49:56 ArthurNumba2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
953 2014-04-15 14:50:04 <vetch> do you live near a train station?
954 2014-04-15 14:50:04 <Michail1> Rebuild is complete from scratch or just reindex?
955 2014-04-15 14:50:08 <Michail1> no
956 2014-04-15 14:52:55 ArthurNumba2 has joined
957 2014-04-15 14:53:23 <GAit> thanks sipa Luke-Jr and vetch for the discussion/input
958 2014-04-15 14:54:10 lclc has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
959 2014-04-15 14:54:44 <vetch> Michail1: here's a good article to read while your nodes rebuild, it's sort of related http://jakepoz.com/soviet_debugging.html
960 2014-04-15 14:54:48 <Michail1> reindexing block on disk.... 272 weeks behind. uhhg
961 2014-04-15 14:55:32 Ken` has joined
962 2014-04-15 14:55:40 bbbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
963 2014-04-15 14:55:58 phrackage has quit (Quit: phrackage)
964 2014-04-15 14:56:01 <sipa> vetch: not the indexes, just the chainstate
965 2014-04-15 14:56:12 <sipa> (which is a database, but not an index)
966 2014-04-15 14:56:34 <vetch> sipa: noted
967 2014-04-15 15:00:12 damethos has joined
968 2014-04-15 15:00:31 <Michail1> 943652.sst (Silly.218) detected by Auto-Protect
969 2014-04-15 15:00:54 <Luke-Jr> yep
970 2014-04-15 15:00:57 jtimon has joined
971 2014-04-15 15:01:18 <Michail1> gonna really suck if people have to start disabling virus protection to even run the bitcoin client.
972 2014-04-15 15:02:09 crisader has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
973 2014-04-15 15:02:10 phantomspark has joined
974 2014-04-15 15:03:23 papa3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
975 2014-04-15 15:03:24 <Michail1> Category: Resolved Security Risks
976 2014-04-15 15:03:24 <Michail1> Date & Time,Risk,Activity,Status,Recommended Action,Path - Filename
977 2014-04-15 15:03:24 <Michail1> 4/15/2014 7:28:12 AM,High,943652.sst (Silly.218) detected by Auto-Protect,Blocked,Resolved - No Action Required,
978 2014-04-15 15:03:41 <Luke-Jr> Michail1: want to make the patch to workaround it? :P
979 2014-04-15 15:04:14 papa3 has joined
980 2014-04-15 15:04:17 <Michail1> Sure. Teach me. Actually, I feel it is better to tell the smart people in here, since I suspect you will hear more about it later.
981 2014-04-15 15:04:34 <Luke-Jr> it's kinda a n00b-dev task
982 2014-04-15 15:04:50 <Luke-Jr> basically the idea is to just encrypt everything in the blockchain/indexes when writing them to disk
983 2014-04-15 15:04:54 <Michail1> Norton updated 5 mins before the issue. So, it will popup with the issue from more people shortly.
984 2014-04-15 15:05:02 <Michail1> Ahhh, but I am not a dev.
985 2014-04-15 15:05:09 <Luke-Jr> also, complain to Norton ;)
986 2014-04-15 15:05:21 <Michail1> I complain to them enough. :)
987 2014-04-15 15:05:27 jordandotdev has joined
988 2014-04-15 15:06:00 <Michail1> So, I did my part in notifying you about an issue, and figured out what caused the issue. Your turn to fix it. :D
989 2014-04-15 15:06:07 emmanuel_chash has joined
990 2014-04-15 15:07:41 Ken` has quit (Changing host)
991 2014-04-15 15:07:41 Ken` has joined
992 2014-04-15 15:07:41 Ken` has quit (Changing host)
993 2014-04-15 15:07:41 Ken` has joined
994 2014-04-15 15:09:01 <Luke-Jr> Michail1: this is a Norton bug, it's their turn to fix it.
995 2014-04-15 15:09:13 <Luke-Jr> a workaround on Bitcoin Core's end would be handy, but nobody's duty.
996 2014-04-15 15:09:25 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
997 2014-04-15 15:09:27 <vetch> Luke-Jr: just make the leveldb files bigger than 32mb, that's confirmed to work
998 2014-04-15 15:09:36 <Luke-Jr> vetch: ?
999 2014-04-15 15:09:47 <GAit> out of curiousity, anyone here using antvirus on their personal box?
1000 2014-04-15 15:09:49 Guyver2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1001 2014-04-15 15:10:03 <Luke-Jr> GAit: I doubt it, we all use Linux
1002 2014-04-15 15:10:03 <vetch> Luke-Jr: if the leveldb files are larger than 32mb they are ignored by most virus protection suites.
1003 2014-04-15 15:10:18 <vetch> Luke-Jr: it sounds stupid, but true.
1004 2014-04-15 15:10:23 <Luke-Jr> vetch: wtf
1005 2014-04-15 15:10:24 elevatioN-pwn has joined
1006 2014-04-15 15:10:27 banghouse has joined
1007 2014-04-15 15:10:50 <vetch> literally just padding out the files will do
1008 2014-04-15 15:10:51 <Luke-Jr> GAit: even Bitcoin Core for Windows, is entirely compiled on Linux
1009 2014-04-15 15:10:56 elevatioN has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1010 2014-04-15 15:11:01 emmanuel_chash has quit (Client Quit)
1011 2014-04-15 15:11:03 <Luke-Jr> vetch: sounds ugly.
1012 2014-04-15 15:11:18 <maaku> Michail1: you should be able to disable scanning of just the bitcoin directory
1013 2014-04-15 15:11:19 <GAit> didn't realize it was cross compiled, that's cool
1014 2014-04-15 15:11:31 rdymac has joined
1015 2014-04-15 15:11:51 <Luke-Jr> GAit: oh, it gets even cooler.. :P
1016 2014-04-15 15:11:52 <GAit> Luke-Jr: while there are just a few AV on linux there are and people can still write viruses for it. I just don't find them any useful.
1017 2014-04-15 15:12:00 <vetch> Luke-Jr: someone was messing about with it on bitcointalk. you can break the scanning very easy.
1018 2014-04-15 15:12:25 t7 has quit (Quit: home)
1019 2014-04-15 15:12:31 <Luke-Jr> GAit: we actually have it setup so that multiple independent parties do the cross-compile and get a bit-for-bit identical build. releases require 3+ PGP signatures from independent builders
1020 2014-04-15 15:12:45 <hearn> vetch: yeah but thatâs fragile
1021 2014-04-15 15:12:46 emmanuel_chash has joined
1022 2014-04-15 15:12:52 <hearn> better to just XOR the scripts
1023 2014-04-15 15:12:57 <vetch> heck, even just XORing the files on windows would do.
1024 2014-04-15 15:13:05 <GAit> yeah i was reading about it and someone probably hearn was saying bitcoinj is going to have a similar release?
1025 2014-04-15 15:13:11 <Luke-Jr> vetch: that was what I suggested :P
1026 2014-04-15 15:13:21 <hearn> a similiar issue, you mean?
1027 2014-04-15 15:13:33 <vetch> Luke-Jr, hearn: great minds or something.
1028 2014-04-15 15:14:05 rdbell has joined
1029 2014-04-15 15:14:17 <hearn> GAit: SPV clients donât store the block chain locally. so, no.
1030 2014-04-15 15:14:33 <Michail1> maaku - Yes, setting to ignore the Silly.218 virus
1031 2014-04-15 15:14:38 <Michail1> http://www.symantec.com/security_response/detected_writeup.jsp?name=Silly.218&vid=35606&prod=scss&product=Norton%20Security%20Suite&version=21.2.0.38&plang=sym:EN&layouttype=SOS&buildname=SymantecPartner&heartbeatID=BD0A44B1-0E93-4B3F-BC5C-3946971FE6D4&env=prod&ispid=1122&sitename=US&vendorid=Symantec&plid=0&skup=21317287&skum=21317287&skuf=21291129&endpointid=%7BBD0A44B1-0E93-4B3F-BC5C-
1032 2014-04-15 15:14:38 <Michail1> 3946971FE6D4%7D&partnerid=Symantec&lic_type=64&lic_attr=152594&osvers=6.1&oslocale=iso:USA&oslang=iso:ENG&os=windows
1033 2014-04-15 15:14:39 <Michail1> oops
1034 2014-04-15 15:14:52 elevatioN-pwn has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1035 2014-04-15 15:14:53 <GAit> hearn: I just seem to recall someone saying they wanted to adopt the same release method used for the bitcoin core binaries
1036 2014-04-15 15:15:01 <hearn> release method?
1037 2014-04-15 15:15:02 <maaku> well i wouldn't ignore the virus entirely, but just configure your antivirus to not scan the bitcoin data directory
1038 2014-04-15 15:15:12 austinhill has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1039 2014-04-15 15:15:15 <hearn> iâm not sure what youâre talking about
1040 2014-04-15 15:15:17 <Michail1> yup.
1041 2014-04-15 15:15:18 <maaku> hearn: gitian
1042 2014-04-15 15:15:22 <GAit> hearn: [15:10] <Luke-Jr> GAit: we actually have it setup so that multiple independent parties do the cross-compile and get a bit-for-bit identical build. releases require 3+ PGP signatures from independent builders
1043 2014-04-15 15:15:41 <hearn> Michail1: no thatâs the wrong fix. you need to tell your AV to ignore that directory entirely, not ignore that virus. someone stuffed a lot of AV signatures into the block chain.
1044 2014-04-15 15:15:56 <hearn> Michail1: and scanning SST files slows down your computer a lot. just exclude that directory
1045 2014-04-15 15:16:23 <Michail1> understood.
1046 2014-04-15 15:16:41 <hearn> GAit: we would not be using gitian, no
1047 2014-04-15 15:17:26 <GAit> hearn: then it must have been someone else or i must have confused what i heard
1048 2014-04-15 15:18:17 Grouver has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1049 2014-04-15 15:18:52 <hearn> GAit: yeah not sure what youâre thinking of there. weâll do deterministic builds at some point - actually 0.11 was done deterministically
1050 2014-04-15 15:18:58 <hearn> or rather the build was reproduced afterwards
1051 2014-04-15 15:19:07 <hearn> you donât really need to do anything to get a deterministic java build, except use the same version of the JDK
1052 2014-04-15 15:19:14 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1053 2014-04-15 15:19:22 nederhoed has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1054 2014-04-15 15:20:02 <GAit> hearn: isn't that the same with bitcoin core if you use the exact same tool chain?
1055 2014-04-15 15:20:02 JTF195 has joined
1056 2014-04-15 15:20:09 Luke-Jr has joined
1057 2014-04-15 15:20:31 <hearn> yes, in theory. the gitian vm stuff has always seemed like overkill to me.
1058 2014-04-15 15:20:47 <hearn> in practice matching a toolchain for C++ is a lot harder
1059 2014-04-15 15:21:12 <GAit> yeah it's a pain but if you use tools like saltstack it isn't hard at all
1060 2014-04-15 15:22:49 phantomspark has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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1073 2014-04-15 15:32:40 Guest13645 is now known as daemon
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1076 2014-04-15 15:33:24 <hno> Hmm.. which is the most recent testnet3 blockhash now?
1077 2014-04-15 15:33:48 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1079 2014-04-15 15:35:38 grau has joined
1080 2014-04-15 15:35:50 <daemon> C0 3E 03 00 - Last block sending node has is block #212672
1081 2014-04-15 15:35:57 <daemon> but what if you have received nothing so far, should it be 00 00 00 00
1082 2014-04-15 15:36:35 pootietang has left ()
1083 2014-04-15 15:37:11 <hno> daemon, that can't be right. That block is from Apr 9.
1084 2014-04-15 15:37:17 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1085 2014-04-15 15:37:23 cbeams has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1086 2014-04-15 15:37:37 sserrano44 has joined
1087 2014-04-15 15:37:38 Starduster has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1088 2014-04-15 15:37:57 <vetch> 000000000001bf838a2364dd6598d0b3331f87416024f1c321cc59e153d8e01d
1089 2014-04-15 15:38:30 <daemon> hno, im just not sure what to put in, I have not seen any blocks yet
1090 2014-04-15 15:38:52 <sipa> daemon: send 0 in that case
1091 2014-04-15 15:39:05 <daemon> ok
1092 2014-04-15 15:39:33 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
1093 2014-04-15 15:39:42 <daemon> sipa, would you be willing to look at a packet I have generated and tell me if its correct
1094 2014-04-15 15:40:38 <daemon> in hex ofc
1095 2014-04-15 15:40:50 <hno> vetch, I kind of doubt that's the latest one. Dated Tue Apr 15 02:23:06 GMT 2014.
1096 2014-04-15 15:40:58 Guyver2 has joined
1097 2014-04-15 15:41:38 <maaku> sipa: which of your headersfirst branches is most current?
1098 2014-04-15 15:42:24 <sipa> maaku: headersfirst is the working-old-but-likely-buggy implementation of the whole thing
1099 2014-04-15 15:42:43 <sipa> maaku: headersfirst2,3,4,5 are parts of the new implementation which isn't finished
1100 2014-04-15 15:42:56 <maaku> ok thanks
1101 2014-04-15 15:43:00 daemon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1102 2014-04-15 15:43:06 daemon has joined
1103 2014-04-15 15:43:25 dexX7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1104 2014-04-15 15:43:29 <hearn> sipa: how much work remains?
1105 2014-04-15 15:43:30 daemon is now known as Guest26737
1106 2014-04-15 15:43:42 <sipa> (in particular, even headersfirst5 doesn't do anything that could be called 'headers first', it's all just refactorings and preparatory work)
1107 2014-04-15 15:43:55 banghouse has joined
1108 2014-04-15 15:44:05 <vetch> hno: you're right. I was looking at my local block explorer that seems to be behind. #225121 seems to be my current highest.
1109 2014-04-15 15:44:07 <sipa> and i think i'll have a part 6 today :)
1110 2014-04-15 15:44:29 <maaku> sipa: i may have time to work on this in a few days time as well
1111 2014-04-15 15:44:47 Guest26737 has quit (Client Quit)
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1113 2014-04-15 15:44:54 Guest26737 is now known as daemon
1114 2014-04-15 15:45:10 <hno> vetch, ok, thats 0000000014259333fc513182e944cafdc78343013b861086a82c28b5d207c403?
1115 2014-04-15 15:45:12 <daemon> sipa, sorry got DC, so yeah woudl you be able to look at a hex dump of a packet I have formed
1116 2014-04-15 15:45:13 damethos has joined
1117 2014-04-15 15:45:13 <sipa> oh right, and i have to address hearn's comments in 5
1118 2014-04-15 15:45:19 <sipa> daemon: no time now, sorry
1119 2014-04-15 15:45:19 <daemon> see if it looks right
1120 2014-04-15 15:45:27 <daemon> ok dokey
1121 2014-04-15 15:45:38 <vetch> hno: yes that's my current tip.
1122 2014-04-15 15:45:40 <daemon> if anyone else would be able to qualify it: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=iF3KjJWu
1123 2014-04-15 15:45:46 <daemon> standard version packet
1124 2014-04-15 15:46:35 <hno> none of the testnet block chain web sites I know of seems to work right now. Still don't trust my bitcoinds to stay on the main chain after last days headaches.
1125 2014-04-15 15:46:52 <hno> but seems the are today :)
1126 2014-04-15 15:47:27 <vetch> hno: that's very odd. insight is behind, btclook isn't, webbtc is.
1127 2014-04-15 15:47:42 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1128 2014-04-15 15:48:29 <vetch> blockexplorer is behind too.
1129 2014-04-15 15:49:06 sserrano44 has joined
1130 2014-04-15 15:49:07 <hno> Seems there have been a chain reorg again.
1131 2014-04-15 15:49:11 yubrew has quit ()
1132 2014-04-15 15:49:27 <vetch> wasn't me this time.
1133 2014-04-15 15:51:33 <vetch> these block explorers really don't like handling reorganisations. I suppose they don't happen in very large chains on mainnet so they never get tested.
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1157 2014-04-15 16:11:33 <dcousens> hey all, so just getting my head around multisig again (for the n'th time), and was just curious, how do you represent a multisig output script as an address?
1158 2014-04-15 16:11:34 bbbrian has joined
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1160 2014-04-15 16:11:55 <sipa> dcousens: P2SH
1161 2014-04-15 16:12:08 <dcousens> sipa: not P2SH, I mean multisig in the scriptPubKey
1162 2014-04-15 16:12:13 <sipa> raw multisig isn't representable as an address (and discouraged)
1163 2014-04-15 16:12:52 <justanotheruser> sipa: what do you mean? Isn't p2sh represented by an address with a 3?
1164 2014-04-15 16:13:07 <dcousens> sipa: right, as I thought, just wanted to check
1165 2014-04-15 16:13:22 <sipa> justanotheruser: P2SH multisig is, raw multisig isn't
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1169 2014-04-15 16:14:29 <dcousens> sipa: why is it discouraged? out of interest
1170 2014-04-15 16:14:29 <justanotheruser> Why is it discouraged?
1171 2014-04-15 16:14:51 <sipa> requires more space in the UTXO set, has worse privacy
1172 2014-04-15 16:15:24 <sipa> (and a tiny security disadvantage as it means revealing the actual public keys, which have lower security than computing an address preimage)
1173 2014-04-15 16:17:00 phantomspark has joined
1174 2014-04-15 16:17:08 <dcousens> sipa: right, and I guess because of the need for the public keys, there isn't really a 20 byte hash shortcut anyway?
1175 2014-04-15 16:17:17 <justanotheruser> sipa: well you have to reveal public keys anyway as long as its confirmed. I guess the difference is someone has 10 minutes to crack your key rather than the amount of time it takes to spend it
1176 2014-04-15 16:17:30 <sipa> justanotheruser: indeed
1177 2014-04-15 16:17:40 posita has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1178 2014-04-15 16:18:01 <justanotheruser> Which leads me to the question of what will happen to satoshis coins when ecdsa is crackable?
1179 2014-04-15 16:18:25 <sipa> hope that he moves his coins like everybody else, if that happens
1180 2014-04-15 16:18:43 <justanotheruser> I doubt that he owns the majority of the coins.
1181 2014-04-15 16:18:51 <sipa> relevance?
1182 2014-04-15 16:19:25 <justanotheruser> A million new coins become spendable
1183 2014-04-15 16:19:41 damethos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1184 2014-04-15 16:20:05 <sipa> and many more
1185 2014-04-15 16:20:36 <justanotheruser> Is it possible that a hardfork will say "move all your coins to this better crypto, or they become unspendable by block X"?
1186 2014-04-15 16:20:54 <justanotheruser> Or would devs not agree to that
1187 2014-04-15 16:20:59 <sipa> if that is the only way to avoid Inevitable Doom (tm), yes
1188 2014-04-15 16:21:18 <sipa> in every other case, i would say it's against bitcoin's social contract of never touching anyone's coins
1189 2014-04-15 16:21:43 <dcousens> anyway, thanks sipa, just wanted to confirm that :)
1190 2014-04-15 16:22:09 <justanotheruser> I suppose it is... I hope it happens myself
1191 2014-04-15 16:22:30 <dcousens> justanotheruser: hope?
1192 2014-04-15 16:23:00 <sipa> i think bitcoin has very uncertain survival if that happens suddenly
1193 2014-04-15 16:23:38 <sipa> but i don't expect that to happen; there will be improvements to ecdsa crackability that are only theoretical long before there is a computationally feasible attack
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1195 2014-04-15 16:24:04 <dcousens> sipa: out of interest, how would you query a raw multisig pubkey tuple? I guess you can't really?
1196 2014-04-15 16:24:05 <justanotheruser> I think when it happens either bitcoin will be the dominant global currency and the price will only divide by the % of non-stolen coins, or it won't be the dominant global currency and the price will crash
1197 2014-04-15 16:24:17 hanncx has joined
1198 2014-04-15 16:24:20 <sipa> dcousens: 'query' ?
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1204 2014-04-15 16:26:01 <dcousens> For example, say I had an output that was a multisig: m pubks n OP_CHECKMULTISIG, and someone else wanted to just quickly send some more coin on to that same output, due to the information requirement (they need the pubkeys), as I said before, there is no simple way of giving them that as an output
1205 2014-04-15 16:26:27 <sipa> well you'll have to give them the actual script
1206 2014-04-15 16:26:31 <dcousens> aka, as I said before, a 20byte hash isn't really feasible
1207 2014-04-15 16:26:34 <sipa> and he'll need a client that supports that
1208 2014-04-15 16:26:43 <sipa> well, sure it is... that's P2SH :p
1209 2014-04-15 16:26:48 <dcousens> haha exactly
1210 2014-04-15 16:27:00 <sipa> only it's a 20-byte hash of the entire script, rather than of just the pubkeys
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1212 2014-04-15 16:29:53 <dcousens> sipa: if you know, how does the reference client show the user they have a partial stake in a pubkey output? (by stake, I mean someone used a pubkey they own)
1213 2014-04-15 16:30:13 <sipa> 'partial'?
1214 2014-04-15 16:30:37 <sipa> the reference client will only consider a coin yours if you have _all_ private keys involved, as it can't deal with spendability from different locations
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1216 2014-04-15 16:31:13 <sipa> if it's to a normal single-pubkey script, it's considered to be identical to a pubkeyhash output
1217 2014-04-15 16:31:44 <dcousens> say you had tx with output 2 pkA pkB 2 OPCMS, and you own the private key for pkB, does the reference client notify you of this tx at all?
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1219 2014-04-15 16:33:25 <dcousens> given what you just said, it sounds like it wouldn't
1220 2014-04-15 16:33:29 <sipa> no
1221 2014-04-15 16:33:39 <sipa> it'll just ignore it
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1224 2014-04-15 16:35:44 <dcousens> interesting, cheers :)
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1228 2014-04-15 16:37:41 <dcousens> sipa: though, all this hardly matters since it appears as though raw multisig is pretty much just used for data at the moment haha
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1244 2014-04-15 17:01:17 <GAit> just to avoid making mistakes _again_, is it best practise to ask some on the chan before msg'ing them privately? in which case, sipa when you have a second can I disturb you privately?
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1247 2014-04-15 17:03:35 <daemon> GAit, yes always best practise on freenode
1248 2014-04-15 17:03:40 <daemon> people get annoyed VERY quickly if you don't ;)
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1252 2014-04-15 17:04:19 <GAit> daemon: thanks, at first I just thought it was the individual preference but fair enough
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1254 2014-04-15 17:04:35 <megaworm> I am starting a new pool similar to blackcoinpool.com. Â I am looking for experienced pool operators who would like to partner with me. Â I am a designer/frontend developer with experience in branding and marketing. Â Please contact me via PM or email wearesatoshifoundation@gmail.com for more details.
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1275 2014-04-15 17:21:57 <megaworm> any pool operators in here?
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1328 2014-04-15 17:57:01 <megaworm> any pool operators in here?
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1339 2014-04-15 18:02:19 <MaxSan> megaworm Luke-Jr
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1341 2014-04-15 18:02:44 <Apocalyptic> wizkid057 is now in charge of Eligius I heard
1342 2014-04-15 18:03:09 <MaxSan> ah
1343 2014-04-15 18:04:24 benrcole1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1344 2014-04-15 18:06:16 <megaworm> thx MaxSan
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1347 2014-04-15 18:10:34 <justanot1eruser> megaworm: what pool?
1348 2014-04-15 18:11:27 <megaworm> justanot1eruser: any pool
1349 2014-04-15 18:11:39 <megaworm> preferably a good one with an experienced operator / dev
1350 2014-04-15 18:12:25 <justanot1eruser> oh, I misunderstood, I thought he was saying you were a pool operator. Luke-Jr Eligius]
1351 2014-04-15 18:12:36 rudrigorc2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1352 2014-04-15 18:12:40 <justanot1eruser> s/Eligius/runs Eligius
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1356 2014-04-15 18:15:20 <jgarzik> justanot1eruser, wizkid057 runs Eligius
1357 2014-04-15 18:17:02 <justanot1eruser> jgarzik: what? What does Luke-Jr do then?
1358 2014-04-15 18:17:24 <jgarzik> justanot1eruser, hacks in eloipool and bfgminer
1359 2014-04-15 18:17:53 <justanot1eruser> jgarzik: what do you mean by "hacks in"?
1360 2014-04-15 18:19:35 btcquant has joined
1361 2014-04-15 18:20:08 <jgarzik> justanot1eruser, maintains software
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1364 2014-04-15 18:21:06 <justanot1eruser> jgarzik: Did he at least start Eligius?
1365 2014-04-15 18:21:16 <justanot1eruser> It is named after a saint after all
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1370 2014-04-15 18:22:10 <phantomcircuit> justanot1eruser, yeah he did
1371 2014-04-15 18:22:16 <hno> justanot1eruser, he is still involved in Eligius. But not so much day to day operations.
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1397 2014-04-15 18:42:40 <hno> Do getblocks always give you only main-chain blocks? How do thin clients detect if they are on the main chain if getheaders don't?
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1400 2014-04-15 18:44:31 <hno> or do thin clients combine both getblocks and getheaders?
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1431 2014-04-15 19:07:29 <sipa> hno: getblocks and getheaders behave identically, and i believe they only reveal currently active blocks
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1492 2014-04-15 19:59:20 WOODMAN has joined
1493 2014-04-15 19:59:24 <WOODMAN> hello
1494 2014-04-15 19:59:28 Milanito has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1495 2014-04-15 19:59:31 <WOODMAN> may i ask a question
1496 2014-04-15 19:59:43 <WOODMAN> serious serious question
1497 2014-04-15 20:00:00 <Ry4an> DATAJA
1498 2014-04-15 20:00:12 <WOODMAN> is that a yes
1499 2014-04-15 20:00:52 <WOODMAN> got a major headache going on over here and could use some help
1500 2014-04-15 20:01:29 <Ry4an> It means there's no value in asking if you can ask a question. Just ask and someone will let you know if you're off topic.
1501 2014-04-15 20:01:31 wallet42 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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1503 2014-04-15 20:01:40 <WOODMAN> kk
1504 2014-04-15 20:01:46 Milanito has joined
1505 2014-04-15 20:02:37 <WOODMAN> i was meticulous when i set up wallet QT, i set it up in advance of buying or trading in person.......i set up the receiving addresses and then i encyrpted the wallet as i never found any real user friendly manuals other than what was on the main website where wallet download (QT) was
1506 2014-04-15 20:02:51 <WOODMAN> i traded a couple of times as investment, i go to send and wont send
1507 2014-04-15 20:03:11 <WOODMAN> so if i set up receive adddress before encryption can this problem be resovled
1508 2014-04-15 20:03:14 <WOODMAN> ?
1509 2014-04-15 20:03:33 <WOODMAN> again i never read anywhere that i had to set up recieve address AFTER encrption cause it changes the keys
1510 2014-04-15 20:03:42 <WOODMAN> now i wonder can this issue somehow be resolved
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1514 2014-04-15 20:04:20 <vetch> receive addresses stay the same through wallet encryption.
1515 2014-04-15 20:04:36 <WOODMAN> but the keys change
1516 2014-04-15 20:04:44 <WOODMAN> thus the problem i believe
1517 2014-04-15 20:04:46 <vetch> the keypool is erased, but that doesn't effect addresses already in your wallet.
1518 2014-04-15 20:04:58 <WOODMAN> ok
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1520 2014-04-15 20:05:12 <WOODMAN> then why is the not sending?
1521 2014-04-15 20:05:33 <vetch> it effects backups of your wallet, in that your old backups are likely invalid, but doesn't change anything beyond that.
1522 2014-04-15 20:05:35 <WOODMAN> and thanks for the answer
1523 2014-04-15 20:06:14 <vetch> I don't really know, I don't use the Core client.
1524 2014-04-15 20:06:22 nowan has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1525 2014-04-15 20:06:23 <WOODMAN> yah this thing is a joke
1526 2014-04-15 20:06:45 <WOODMAN> the technology may be great, the manuals that go along with it suck
1527 2014-04-15 20:06:51 <WOODMAN> its all over the internet
1528 2014-04-15 20:06:58 <WOODMAN> not on a homepage warning people
1529 2014-04-15 20:07:23 <WOODMAN> i have one hell of a mystery going on
1530 2014-04-15 20:07:34 <WOODMAN> and its not treating me well
1531 2014-04-15 20:08:26 <WOODMAN> its not recognizing the passphrase
1532 2014-04-15 20:08:32 <WOODMAN> i wrote it down
1533 2014-04-15 20:08:39 xlimbonic has joined
1534 2014-04-15 20:08:39 <WOODMAN> tried to crack it or crunch it
1535 2014-04-15 20:08:56 <WOODMAN> was able to tell that it wasnt capitlization or being one character off
1536 2014-04-15 20:09:05 <WOODMAN> but still didnt resolve issue
1537 2014-04-15 20:10:35 <WOODMAN> i would like to offer a big suggestion if i may
1538 2014-04-15 20:11:02 <WOODMAN> that the homepage tell people with bold (since there are a lot of new people) to 1. test wallet before loading with any real amount
1539 2014-04-15 20:11:29 <WOODMAN> 2. get the import key first before loading it in case smeting goes wrong, caues if i had it would be very helpful in this situation
1540 2014-04-15 20:11:50 <WOODMAN> 3. dont add RECEIVE addresses until after encryption
1541 2014-04-15 20:12:06 Lexa has quit (Quit: Quit)
1542 2014-04-15 20:12:14 <WOODMAN> what do you think?
1543 2014-04-15 20:12:34 <WOODMAN> i wouldnt wish this upon anyone else even if i had to take it on the chin
1544 2014-04-15 20:12:43 <WOODMAN> this one hurt bad
1545 2014-04-15 20:13:26 <jcorgan> WOODMAN: sorry to hear about what happened to you, but this channel is primarily for the bitcoin developers to coordinate work on the reference client; you'll probably get more help from #bitcoin
1546 2014-04-15 20:13:51 home_jg is now known as jgarzik
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1555 2014-04-15 20:17:47 <WOODMAN> alright
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1557 2014-04-15 20:18:01 <WOODMAN> thought the devlopers should konw
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1559 2014-04-15 20:18:09 <WOODMAN> fyi
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1598 2014-04-15 20:51:49 <buZz> do change addresses exist because input cant be the same as output?
1599 2014-04-15 20:51:55 <buZz> or is there a different reason
1600 2014-04-15 20:53:06 FastOb has joined
1601 2014-04-15 20:53:09 <FastOb> Bitcoin Huge pump coming lol today to 700$ look at the graphs! http://prorealtime.info/
1602 2014-04-15 20:53:39 <sturles> FastOb: Wrong channel.
1603 2014-04-15 20:54:22 <pjorrit> because you need to spend the complete input, you could spend the change back to the sending address
1604 2014-04-15 20:54:39 <Apocalyptic> it's prolly malware sturles, every channel is good for him
1605 2014-04-15 20:56:14 <sipa> buZz: change addresses don't exist at the protocol level
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1607 2014-04-15 20:56:34 <sipa> buZz: *addresses* don't even exist at the protocol level
1608 2014-04-15 20:56:35 <Apocalyptic> buZz, privacy
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1610 2014-04-15 20:56:54 <sipa> buZz: the reason is indeed privacy, to hide which of the two outputs is the payment
1611 2014-04-15 20:57:00 <sipa> and which is change
1612 2014-04-15 20:57:26 <Apocalyptic> it also enables the 'never reuse address' paradigm
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1615 2014-04-15 20:58:38 <buZz> hmm ok, ty
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1667 2014-04-15 21:34:40 <abrkn> sipa: just listened to ep 100 of lets talk bitcoin. not sure if you follow it. is there any reasonable writeup of this sidechain business?
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1669 2014-04-15 21:37:32 <sipa> abrkn: i'm well aware of the sidechain stuff, but haven't ever listened to lets talk bitcoin
1670 2014-04-15 21:37:39 ralphtheninja has joined
1671 2014-04-15 21:38:45 <abrkn> sipa: where do you stand in the matter?
1672 2014-04-15 21:40:21 spinza has joined
1673 2014-04-15 21:40:45 <abrkn> sipa: ive been trying to understand with no luck. if people want to make alt chains then go ahead. the value of an alt is determined by its utility. why force bitcoin to care about it
1674 2014-04-15 21:41:22 <sipa> because alt chains can bring very useful new features or scalability or just experiments
1675 2014-04-15 21:41:34 <sipa> and bitcoin cannot deal with those on itself
1676 2014-04-15 21:41:50 <abrkn> sipa: well, you can trade btc for doge right now
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1678 2014-04-15 21:42:10 <abrkn> sipa: with no change to the bitcoin protocol
1679 2014-04-15 21:42:11 <sipa> abrkn: with an unknown exchange rate
1680 2014-04-15 21:42:22 <sipa> making it a potential pump and dump
1681 2014-04-15 21:42:32 <sipa> nobody knows how long doge will survive
1682 2014-04-15 21:42:38 <sipa> or bitcoin, for that matter
1683 2014-04-15 21:42:51 <sipa> the problem is that they compete for a market
1684 2014-04-15 21:43:04 <abrkn> so the hashing power is the problem?
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1686 2014-04-15 21:43:12 <sipa> no, the markrt
1687 2014-04-15 21:43:25 <sipa> both currencies are trying to get adopted
1688 2014-04-15 21:43:34 <sipa> there is no point for them to compete
1689 2014-04-15 21:43:56 <sipa> but they have to, now
1690 2014-04-15 21:44:02 <abrkn> why not? dogecoin tries to solve a non existant problem. it -is- a pump and dump
1691 2014-04-15 21:44:11 <sipa> well doge is a bad example
1692 2014-04-15 21:44:28 <sipa> as it offers no features that bitcoin doesn't have
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1694 2014-04-15 21:45:00 <sipa> but for example more complex scripting features (as ethereum offers to an extreme degree)
1695 2014-04-15 21:45:02 <abrkn> so what is a good example? not trying to argue, just trying to find a use case
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1697 2014-04-15 21:45:29 <sipa> or some of the never-implemented scalability improvements that are described on the hardfork wishlist
1698 2014-04-15 21:45:42 <sipa> those things need to be experimented with
1699 2014-04-15 21:45:58 <abrkn> but if we two-way-peg with another currency, would not a fault in that alt cause problems in bitcoin?
1700 2014-04-15 21:46:08 <sipa> but they are too little understood (and have too little consensus) to be made part of bitcoin directly
1701 2014-04-15 21:46:11 <helo> people become tired of altcoins that are pump-and-dump, and stop even taking notice. a side-chain can't pump-and-dump, so people may take notice.
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1704 2014-04-15 21:46:38 <sipa> if there is a problem with the alt chain, at most its coins can be stolen and moved back to bitcoin
1705 2014-04-15 21:46:47 <sipa> but bitcoin coins itself are never at risk
1706 2014-04-15 21:47:02 <sipa> nor is the currency subsidy ever at risk
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1708 2014-04-15 21:47:04 <abrkn> sipa: i see, so an output into the sidechain will only be that?
1709 2014-04-15 21:47:48 <abrkn> sipa: so its like proof of destruction (mastercoin), but it can come back via a mechanism of the alt?
1710 2014-04-15 21:47:50 <sipa> there will be a special utxo in bitcoin marked as "moved to sidechain x", and it will need a proof of burn inside the sidechain, to use the coin in bitcoin/again
1711 2014-04-15 21:48:23 <abrkn> sipa: how does bitcoin know it's been burnt in the sidechain?
1712 2014-04-15 21:48:39 <sipa> it does not
1713 2014-04-15 21:48:49 <abrkn> sipa: well, for it to come back, there must be some mechanism
1714 2014-04-15 21:49:04 <sipa> you provide the side chain burn proof as input to the transaction that spends the moved coin agaim
1715 2014-04-15 21:49:31 <abrkn> sipa: who decides the mechanism of proof in the side chain?
1716 2014-04-15 21:49:38 <abrkn> *of burn
1717 2014-04-15 21:49:44 <helo> how is such a thing not a hard-fork?
1718 2014-04-15 21:49:50 <abrkn> helo: it certainly is
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1720 2014-04-15 21:49:56 <sipa> it is possible as a soft fork
1721 2014-04-15 21:50:00 <petertodd> awesome: http://www.bitundo.com
1722 2014-04-15 21:50:07 <sipa> but perhaps inefficient
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1725 2014-04-15 21:51:34 <abrkn> petertodd: as far as landing pages go, i, as a pretty expert bitcoin user, do not understand what it is after first read
1726 2014-04-15 21:52:01 <shesek> they help you double spend transactions you sent by mistake
1727 2014-04-15 21:52:15 <petertodd> abrkn: it's a mining pool that doesn't always mine the first transaction they see
1728 2014-04-15 21:52:16 <shesek> by paying 10% of it to them and the miner
1729 2014-04-15 21:52:22 <abrkn> shesek: i think you just became vp of marketing in bitundo ;)
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1731 2014-04-15 21:52:40 <shesek> abrkn, :)
1732 2014-04-15 21:52:44 <abrkn> shesek: because -that- i understand
1733 2014-04-15 21:52:48 <shesek> petertodd, they are a pool? I thought they're working with other pools
1734 2014-04-15 21:53:02 <petertodd> shesek: they are a pool as well as workin with other pools (I think?)
1735 2014-04-15 21:53:04 <shesek> abrkn, I think they're trying to avoid using the phrase "double spend"
1736 2014-04-15 21:53:20 <shesek> its not mentioned anywhere on their site, and its the most standard way of describing what they're doing...
1737 2014-04-15 21:53:32 <petertodd> shesek: indeed, nice marketting trick
1738 2014-04-15 21:53:58 <petertodd> shesek: I especially like the secret option - good to remind the likes of mycelium that unconfirmed txs are insecure...
1739 2014-04-15 21:54:03 <shesek> petertodd, I just re-read - yeah, they are a pool, and also provide other pools with a patched bitcoind that supports that
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1741 2014-04-15 21:55:14 <petertodd> good time for me to rebase my replace-by-fee patch too :)
1742 2014-04-15 21:55:18 <shesek> petertodd, I don't quite get why they're needed, and what's the incentive for other pools to work with them (and give them a cut of it)
1743 2014-04-15 21:55:39 <shesek> it could just be a local utility that sends another transaction with higher fees
1744 2014-04-15 21:56:00 <petertodd> well, they aren't needed with replace-by-fee... and on the backend they might be doing something clever with p2pool so that their varience starts off low
1745 2014-04-15 21:56:01 <shesek> (assuming that miners starts prioritizing based on that - which I guess is the primary thing they're doing)
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1748 2014-04-15 21:56:56 <shesek> abrkn, your nickname seems very familiar to me - did I meet you somewhere or something? (I'm Nadav from Bitrated)
1749 2014-04-15 21:57:29 <abrkn> shesek: no, ive never attended any confs. i am a co founder of justcoin.com
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1756 2014-04-15 22:00:08 <abrkn> shesek: we're pretty small. we do bitcoin (litecoin) and ripple
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1762 2014-04-15 22:01:26 <shesek> abrkn, I'm not sure... I tried searching my email for your nickname/name, can't find anything
1763 2014-04-15 22:01:39 <shesek> but it does seem very familiar to me for some reason
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1765 2014-04-15 22:02:00 <abrkn> shesek: and you?
1766 2014-04-15 22:02:50 <abrkn> haha, we share so many channels. postgres, node, bitcoin-dev. looking for a job?
1767 2014-04-15 22:03:17 <shesek> I'm working on Bitrated, a web interface that allows using multisig for arbitration ("escrow-like") and provides a marketplace for arbitration services
1768 2014-04-15 22:03:37 <abrkn> shesek: is it your site?
1769 2014-04-15 22:03:37 <shesek> and no, my hands are quite full with that :)
1770 2014-04-15 22:03:43 <shesek> yes
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1773 2014-04-15 22:04:43 <abrkn> shesek: ok, i'll check it out now
1774 2014-04-15 22:05:17 <abrkn> shesek: holy shit that's complex
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1776 2014-04-15 22:06:28 <shesek> abrkn, heh, really? I was hoping for it to be quite simple :)
1777 2014-04-15 22:06:57 <shesek> there are quite a lot of improvements to do on the ux/accessibility, which I'm hoping to address in the next version
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1781 2014-04-15 22:07:30 <abrkn> shesek: we're all in a really new space. i say if it works, then go with it. ux will follow
1782 2014-04-15 22:08:16 <abrkn> look at blockchain.info. it's a pain in the ass, but it does the job. i'd recommend it to anyone
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1785 2014-04-15 22:11:48 <GAit> has anyone seen bitundo? if it picks up it may make double spend much easier
1786 2014-04-15 22:12:12 <petertodd> GAit: trying it out right now - interface looks nice and easy
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1789 2014-04-15 22:13:02 <GAit> petertodd: yeah, classic bootstrap
1790 2014-04-15 22:13:27 <petertodd> GAit: could do the same thing w/ replace-by-fee too
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1792 2014-04-15 22:13:42 <GAit> yeah petertodd but this makes it easier
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1794 2014-04-15 22:13:48 <GAit> for avg user
1795 2014-04-15 22:14:01 <petertodd> oh, I mean, I should have made a nice javascript website to do what bitundo is doing w/ replace-by-fee
1796 2014-04-15 22:14:25 <GAit> oh
1797 2014-04-15 22:14:27 <GAit> yeah
1798 2014-04-15 22:14:28 <sipa> is bitundo not just replace by fee?
1799 2014-04-15 22:14:44 <petertodd> sipa: no, they have you pay to their address
1800 2014-04-15 22:15:13 <sipa> ha
1801 2014-04-15 22:15:22 <sipa> that's smart, if it works :D
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1808 2014-04-15 22:22:08 <GAit> petertodd: are you actually testing it with a tx or just playing around with the UX ?
1809 2014-04-15 22:22:19 <petertodd> GAit: real txs
1810 2014-04-15 22:22:32 <GAit> cool, if you don't mind keep us posted :)
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1814 2014-04-15 22:23:47 <petertodd> GAit: ha, well, they didn't mine the two tx's I tried out, but that doesn't mean much
1815 2014-04-15 22:23:55 <GAit> thing is even if bitundo catches on and gets some decent % of the network this is still a russian roulette really
1816 2014-04-15 22:23:57 <GAit> yeah i figured
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1819 2014-04-15 22:27:16 <petertodd> oh sure, but there's lots of cases where being able to undo just %1 of tx's is very valuable
1820 2014-04-15 22:28:15 <GAit> yeah i can imagine
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1822 2014-04-15 22:31:14 <maraoz> last testnet block was 20 hours ago?
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1850 2014-04-15 22:59:01 <netg_> wtf
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1856 2014-04-15 23:03:15 <jcv> maraoz: I saw a testnet block just a few minutes ago
1857 2014-04-15 23:03:22 <jcv> block 225166
1858 2014-04-15 23:03:28 one_zero has joined
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1860 2014-04-15 23:04:29 <vetch> maraoz: you're behind. the block explorers are behind.
1861 2014-04-15 23:04:59 Coincidental has joined
1862 2014-04-15 23:05:34 <vetch> something funky in #224679 is stopping them from going further.. though I don't know what
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1866 2014-04-15 23:10:45 <GAit> gmaxwell: sipa : https://github.com/richardkiss/pycoin/pull/24 , hopefully pushing a patch to bitcoinjs tomorrow too.
1867 2014-04-15 23:12:03 <vetch> yeah. the block explorers are on a different chain. at height 22369 I'm seeing "00000000000319937fa60d78dd6582aeef9ec27e79cc12e7cee88ea80a7097a9" but they show "000000000001bf838a2364dd6598d0b3331f87416024f1c321cc59e153d8e01d"
1868 2014-04-15 23:12:18 <gmaxwell> GAit: awesome.
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1878 2014-04-15 23:18:51 <melvster> bitundo is kind of an insane idea, but maybe it will help people realize that zero confs are not safe for high value tx ... and will maybe teach miners to become more decentralized
1879 2014-04-15 23:19:07 <GAit> just like coingen in some ways :)
1880 2014-04-15 23:19:39 <GAit> forces the issue
1881 2014-04-15 23:19:47 <melvster> yeah
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1885 2014-04-15 23:21:24 Emmanuel has joined
1886 2014-04-15 23:21:43 btcnerd has joined
1887 2014-04-15 23:21:51 <btcnerd> Howdy
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1890 2014-04-15 23:23:18 <gmaxwell> melvster: as a company its crazy; but some people (e.g. PeterTodd most notably) have been promoting a greedy default policy for miners for some time. There are actually some pretty good arguments in favor of it, including that it appears like its what we'll eventually have due to fee competition, and if it works consistently there are some different safe ways of doing 0conf which may be safer than what we have when miners are being ...
1891 2014-04-15 23:23:19 nsh_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1892 2014-04-15 23:23:25 <gmaxwell> ... 'alturistic'.
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1895 2014-04-15 23:24:55 <melvster> gmaxwell: yeah that actually makes sense, but personally id never promote such a thing
1896 2014-04-15 23:25:39 <gmaxwell> my thinking is that eventually someone would do it at a noticable scale, and once they do the best thing will be to make it the norm... because inconsistent behavior is the worst of all worlds.
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1901 2014-04-15 23:27:55 <melvster> gmaxwell: that's a good argument, but getting to noticeable scale may or may not be an inevitable, but having contingencies can only make btc more robust
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1903 2014-04-15 23:28:45 <melvster> maybe they'll find btc hashing power too high, and go and attack some alts :D
1904 2014-04-15 23:29:08 <vetch> I doubt you'll find a single alt coin with any meaningful uses
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1907 2014-04-15 23:30:01 <melvster> vetch: testnet3 is the king ;)
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1914 2014-04-15 23:33:55 <vetch> melvster: once it sorts out it's little forking issues
1915 2014-04-15 23:34:51 <melvster> oh yeah, i saw that ... longest chain wins tho ... im almost done writing my testnet explorer which ill integrate into brainwallet so that we can finally send tx over the web
1916 2014-04-15 23:35:32 <sipa> brainwallet :(
1917 2014-04-15 23:36:01 <melvster> sipa: why the :( ?
1918 2014-04-15 23:36:33 <GAit> melvster: because brain wallets are generally insecure?
1919 2014-04-15 23:36:38 <vetch> melvster: none of the other block explorers except btclook seems to have handled the reorganisations recently. lets hope yours can do better.
1920 2014-04-15 23:37:27 <melvster> will try! sure brainwallet isnt 100% best practice, but for the testnet it's more to build up functionality than get coins, if you lose your coins just ask someone or go to the faucet
1921 2014-04-15 23:37:42 nsh__ has joined
1922 2014-04-15 23:37:58 <GAit> sometimes tools built for test are used in production by _other_ people
1923 2014-04-15 23:38:20 <melvster> true
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1925 2014-04-15 23:39:09 <sipa> really, please don't even give that word any publicity
1926 2014-04-15 23:39:18 <sipa> unless to educate people
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1930 2014-04-15 23:40:01 <vetch> it's definitely one of the worst services to befoul bitcoin, up there with blockchain.info.
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1932 2014-04-15 23:43:05 <GAit> vetch: imho the bitcoin.org page doesn't help too much the user with making the choice. bitcoin-qt is not user friendly, and it's not clear the difference between all the wallets. Multisignature wallets, even when with apps are under web wallet for example
1933 2014-04-15 23:43:53 <GAit> but there's some work going on to improve it i understand
1934 2014-04-15 23:44:00 <GAit> or at least some discussion
1935 2014-04-15 23:44:07 Emmanuel has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1936 2014-04-15 23:44:33 <vetch> GAit: that's more for lack of choice than lack of documenting it.
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1939 2014-04-15 23:45:00 <vetch> every wallet currently available has palpable flaws.
1940 2014-04-15 23:45:06 nsh__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1941 2014-04-15 23:45:10 <GAit> vetch: lack? there are a dozen wallet or so or am I wrong?
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1945 2014-04-15 23:45:30 <vetch> Electrum, Multibit, Bitcoin Core, Armory
1946 2014-04-15 23:46:15 <GAit> I counted 12 on the wallet selection page
1947 2014-04-15 23:46:49 <vetch> Hive is OSX only, and I'm not counting web wallets.
1948 2014-04-15 23:47:06 <GAit> vetch: the desktop selection doesn't include all local open source apps (like multisig wallets, which depend on the server for it)
1949 2014-04-15 23:47:30 <GAit> but those are clearly not the same as webwallet, there's more colores than black and white
1950 2014-04-15 23:48:09 <vetch> blockchain.info has an application wrapper for their wallet, but it's still ridiculously insecure and not private to say the least.
1951 2014-04-15 23:48:09 <sipa> anything that requires executing code loaded from a remote site is only marginally better at most than a pure webwallet
1952 2014-04-15 23:48:19 <vetch> it all comes down to where you draw your line in the sand.
1953 2014-04-15 23:48:30 <sipa> and imho mostly a false sense of security
1954 2014-04-15 23:48:46 <GAit> sipa: our app chrome app is isolated and local and unminified and foss and doesn't execute anything from a remote server
1955 2014-04-15 23:48:58 <GAit> talks via wss for the data/multisign
1956 2014-04-15 23:49:07 <vetch> chrome apps can have updates pushed silently. that's not really comforting.
1957 2014-04-15 23:49:08 disident has joined
1958 2014-04-15 23:49:17 <sipa> as you can't rely on community inspection of the code (they could be serving different code to everyone)
1959 2014-04-15 23:49:19 <GAit> they can but you can also easily run them straight from the github repo
1960 2014-04-15 23:49:25 <vetch> if you are compromised a bad update can be pushed to your users.
1961 2014-04-15 23:49:28 <gmaxwell> chrome autoupdate can't be disabled either, and can't be threshold signed on the side of the publish too.
1962 2014-04-15 23:49:30 <melvster> GAit: which app is that, do you have a link?
1963 2014-04-15 23:49:32 <gmaxwell> er publisher.
1964 2014-04-15 23:49:46 <vetch> GAit: I don't see that happening. anybody who is going to that sort of length wouldn't be using a web wallet.
1965 2014-04-15 23:49:54 <GAit> melvster: https://github.com/greenaddress/WalletCrx
1966 2014-04-15 23:50:01 <melvster> ah thanks!
1967 2014-04-15 23:50:15 <GAit> vetch: well you can download the zip from github and load it as easily as you would install the app
1968 2014-04-15 23:50:27 <GAit> so we can put a link to that instead by default on our home/support/faq page
1969 2014-04-15 23:50:39 <vetch> doesn't chrome block the installation of anything that's not from their store now?
1970 2014-04-15 23:50:43 <GAit> no
1971 2014-04-15 23:51:33 <GAit> there's also a manifest file that limits what the app can do and isolates it. The app verifies the server doesn't lie by looking at blockchain data on the electrum network before signing
1972 2014-04-15 23:52:10 <vetch> in the context of people installing from the chrome store, there's absolutely nothing stopping a hacker on your server from pushing a bad update that bypasses any local restriction.
1973 2014-04-15 23:52:14 <GAit> i'll try to find a way to make a non updatable executable but it may be a lot more support work for different platforms
1974 2014-04-15 23:52:36 <GAit> the hacker can't do much to your 2FA device and the transaction information sent within tx
1975 2014-04-15 23:52:54 <GAit> s/within tx/within 2fa message
1976 2014-04-15 23:53:06 <sipa> he can send any private keys to him?
1977 2014-04-15 23:53:13 <GAit> yeah won't doo much
1978 2014-04-15 23:53:18 <GAit> what about the other side?
1979 2014-04-15 23:53:42 <GAit> they have to separately hack our server and google or our server and their device or our server and our offline chrome signing keys
1980 2014-04-15 23:53:43 <vetch> if a hacker has control of your server and the clients indirectly though a pushed update, doesn't that mean your security model is broken?
1981 2014-04-15 23:54:03 <GAit> not if they use the chrome app, no keys signing the chrome app are on the prod box
1982 2014-04-15 23:54:15 <GAit> they have two hack two different things at the same time
1983 2014-04-15 23:54:27 <vetch> oh that's even easier actually. compromising the chrome extension just means the hacker can silently swap out addresses in the client with their own. no need to compromise your production server.
1984 2014-04-15 23:54:29 <GAit> but, i could be malicious
1985 2014-04-15 23:54:34 <GAit> no
1986 2014-04-15 23:54:35 <GAit> they can't
1987 2014-04-15 23:54:38 <GAit> because the client verifies
1988 2014-04-15 23:54:52 <GAit> oh
1989 2014-04-15 23:54:52 <GAit> wait
1990 2014-04-15 23:54:56 <GAit> then the 2fa?
1991 2014-04-15 23:54:59 <vetch> we're assuming a malicious CRX pushed via the chrome store.
1992 2014-04-15 23:55:03 <GAit> has information about the addresses
1993 2014-04-15 23:55:06 <GAit> yeah i reread that
1994 2014-04-15 23:55:51 <GAit> so malware does some MITM or something. Unless they also hack greenaddresses servers they can't go around your 2FA, which also conveniently contains tx info
1995 2014-04-15 23:56:33 <GAit> anyway installing a zip from github on chrome seems easier for a user than installing and waiting on bitcoin-qt
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1997 2014-04-15 23:57:06 <sipa> given the inevitable extra conveniemce web methods seem to have, and the tons of users doing that, it's certain good to see people thinking about to improve security within that model
1998 2014-04-15 23:57:20 <sipa> but i still feel like it's mostly a false semse
1999 2014-04-15 23:57:38 <sipa> well, there's no comparisom with a full node these days
2000 2014-04-15 23:57:52 <vetch> I can't immediately think of a method for compromise, but I still wouldn't feel comfortable recommending this to anybody
2001 2014-04-15 23:57:56 <sipa> bitcoin core won't compete with that markrt until it has an spv mode
2002 2014-04-15 23:58:32 <GAit> do we have to disable the app from the chrome store and remove web access to not call it web anymore?
2003 2014-04-15 23:58:52 <GAit> we want to educate the user a bit before registration so he uses the best client
2004 2014-04-15 23:58:58 <vetch> you can't have a secure application with automatic, silent remote updates
2005 2014-04-15 23:59:07 <GAit> but at the end of the day some users just want to try bitcoin and have an iPhone
2006 2014-04-15 23:59:18 <sipa> i just dislike the idea of having private keys in a browser, but that's perhaps just me (and technically, independent from the argument i made before)
2007 2014-04-15 23:59:49 <GAit> sipa: browser? if it's a local app and doesn;t load anything remotely how is it a browser?