1 2014-04-16 00:00:08 <sipa> wait, it's not a chrome extension?
   2 2014-04-16 00:00:23 <GAit> it's a chrome app with a manifest and isolation
   3 2014-04-16 00:00:36 <gmaxwell> GAit: an illustrative question: Does it use mlock to keep the keys out of swap?
   4 2014-04-16 00:00:41 <sipa> it's still a huge attack surface
   5 2014-04-16 00:00:54 <sipa> millions of lines of code
   6 2014-04-16 00:01:17 <sipa> interacts with pretty much everything in your os
   7 2014-04-16 00:01:20 <melvster> private keys already live in browsers in the form of x.509 client cert, which are very widely deployed in the enterprise, when the web crypto API is finished this year, there will be more options ... of course it's probably still dangerous
   8 2014-04-16 00:01:20 <GAit> sipa: fair enough. We'll try to get working on a full native app based on bitcoinj
   9 2014-04-16 00:01:32 <GAit> or multibit plugin
  10 2014-04-16 00:01:56 <gmaxwell> melvster: so show me where x509 client certs are in chrome. :P
  11 2014-04-16 00:02:08 <vetch> GAit: wait. you said the 2FA requests show the user what they are agreeing to. how does that work with Google Authenticator?
  12 2014-04-16 00:02:23 <gmaxwell> melvster: and regardless, the browsers _own_ facilties are not the same thing as JS apps running on top of them.
  13 2014-04-16 00:02:36 <GAit> vetch: it doesn't with GA. but GA is the only one that can be offline and really anonymous
  14 2014-04-16 00:02:44 <sipa> GAit: appreciate it that you listened :)
  15 2014-04-16 00:03:01 <GAit> gmaxwell: you are right, we don't and we should.
  16 2014-04-16 00:03:25 <sipa> GAit: independently, i like the idea of usimg multisig for securimg tramsactions
  17 2014-04-16 00:03:30 <vetch> GAit: I think it's the one most users will choose, I don't imagine most people would give up their SMS address. in that model it's definitely easy for a compromise of the CRX to end up draining a users wallet, right?
  18 2014-04-16 00:03:46 <vetch> GAit: in line with sipa, I like that you're willing to discuss this.
  19 2014-04-16 00:03:55 <melvster> gmaxwell: somewhere in the security tab, you can import a cert of generate one with the <KEYGEN> tag, I use x.509 client certs *constantly* I've probably used them 100+ times in chrome today alone for auth ... sadly there's not ECDSA sepc256ka support yet tho
  20 2014-04-16 00:04:18 <melvster> k1
  21 2014-04-16 00:04:39 <GAit> vetch: i was thinking a while back to add a 2fa based on pgp
  22 2014-04-16 00:04:44 <GAit> with tx info signed by the server
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  24 2014-04-16 00:05:07 <GAit> but boy is it a hard core / advanced  feature not for inexperienced users
  25 2014-04-16 00:05:13 <gmaxwell> melvster: ah it didn't used to, I actually had to remove client cert auth from a site because of chrome a couple years ago. I'm glad they've fixed that.
  26 2014-04-16 00:05:30 <vetch> GAit: is anything in Bitcoin easy to explain to users?
  27 2014-04-16 00:05:31 <melvster> yeah took a while!
  28 2014-04-16 00:05:36 <melvster> faster than mozilla at least
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  34 2014-04-16 00:06:01 <GAit> vetch: no .. anyway i'm hoping with a hardware wallet most of these issues will disappear
  35 2014-04-16 00:06:23 <GAit> we're looking to integrate with two so far
  36 2014-04-16 00:06:35 <vetch> trezor and what else?
  37 2014-04-16 00:06:44 <vetch> if you can disclose that.
  38 2014-04-16 00:07:09 <GAit> no i can't, it may get announced before or at the conference
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  40 2014-04-16 00:07:33 <vetch> understandable
  41 2014-04-16 00:07:37 <GAit> for all i know they may not get around the final stages or may be ready for mass production, no idea
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  44 2014-04-16 00:08:14 <melvster> they'll do it ... i got 16 trezors on order ...
  45 2014-04-16 00:08:30 <melvster> i live in the same town as the trezor team
  46 2014-04-16 00:08:41 <GAit> trezor is cool. i had no idea it was this small
  47 2014-04-16 00:08:53 <GAit> oh really?
  48 2014-04-16 00:08:59 <Apocalyptic> melvster, did you see a prototype ?
  49 2014-04-16 00:09:14 <vetch> GAit: I can pitch my idea for a hardware wallet to you if you want. it's basically like the trezor set in an enormous clear acrylic cube with a solid lead centre. so big and heavy that stealing it becomes completely ridiculous.
  50 2014-04-16 00:09:15 <GAit> man i wish i could go around slush lab and have a beer with the boys :)
  51 2014-04-16 00:09:29 <melvster> yeah I saw mike's review ... looks great ... I used to be in the same co working space as them, before they got the office, used to chat a lot, trezor will be awesome, trust me
  52 2014-04-16 00:09:55 <melvster> and they run the hacker space too
  53 2014-04-16 00:10:04 <GAit> i used to love the one in london
  54 2014-04-16 00:10:15 <GAit> very cool atmosphere
  55 2014-04-16 00:10:32 <vetch> thankfully there's not much to the trezor's hardware. they should be cheap and plentiful.
  56 2014-04-16 00:10:33 <GAit> account registration without human contact, all bank account and then NFC tag to open the door
  57 2014-04-16 00:11:30 <GAit> vetch: what is the use of a such a hardware wallet? data center?
  58 2014-04-16 00:11:53 <WOODMAN> http://bitcoinmacroeconomics.com/2014/04/13/hard-lesson-i-want-to-share-with-others-wallet-qt-encryption/
  59 2014-04-16 00:11:59 <vetch> GAit: nah, it's something you keep in your house. nobody can steal what they can't get through the door.
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  61 2014-04-16 00:12:01 <WOODMAN> help!
  62 2014-04-16 00:12:25 <shesek> I saw a trezor about a week ago
  63 2014-04-16 00:12:29 <GAit> can't i get it to sign away the funds
  64 2014-04-16 00:12:37 <shesek> they sent a few out to beta testers
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  66 2014-04-16 00:12:51 <shesek> I didn't get to play much with it though :\
  67 2014-04-16 00:13:05 <GAit> from mikes review i saw that you can pick the mnemonic length
  68 2014-04-16 00:13:25 <GAit> i would love a definitive answer as to what we should default for users (and not even offer choice)
  69 2014-04-16 00:13:49 <melvster> just count up the entroyp
  70 2014-04-16 00:13:51 <vetch> GAit: nah, it'd have a passcode.. or something. I haven't put thought into that bit. I liked someone's idea for a separate project; making it radioactive so that nobody would want to hang around trying to crack it. might be a hard sell though.
  71 2014-04-16 00:14:39 <shesek> yeah, I don't think the entropy should be user configurable either
  72 2014-04-16 00:14:48 <GAit> melvster: that's the point, 12 words or 24 words. Mike always says 12 words in the videos, electrum is 12 words, trezor offers options, we went for 24 (but we should be able to move easily)
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  74 2014-04-16 00:15:28 <GAit> 128 vs 256
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  76 2014-04-16 00:16:27 <melvster> 128  bits seems plenty
  77 2014-04-16 00:16:35 <vetch> GAit: don't bitcoin keys have an effective security of 128bits anyway?
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  79 2014-04-16 00:17:13 <GAit> so maybe the standard should be changed to not support 256 for mnemonics?
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  82 2014-04-16 00:17:25 <sipa> my reason for recommending 256 in bip32 is because i don't understand well enough how the ecdlp's 1/2 bits security factor interacts with key entropy
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  84 2014-04-16 00:17:52 <sipa> ie, i'm not comvinced thr resulting security is min(ec algorithm,key entropy)... it may be less
  85 2014-04-16 00:18:05 <GAit> i certainly can't claim I do
  86 2014-04-16 00:18:08 <vetch> sort of related related, a service called "carbon wallet" implemented bip32 as a web wallet. rather than use the randomly chosen words, people decided to use their own. because the words weren't in the bip32 dictionary the javascript returned false, so people used wallets like 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0. whoops.
  87 2014-04-16 00:18:37 <GAit> oh, wallet sharing
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  90 2014-04-16 00:19:15 <vetch> accidental wallet sharing, or just very weak seeds that were mostly null
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  93 2014-04-16 00:19:41 <GAit> sipa we still have to document them but we have some alpha api exposed (the same used by the clients), fancy reviewing them?
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  98 2014-04-16 00:20:30 <melvster> GAit: any views on warp wallet? http://maxtaco.github.io/bitcoin/2014/01/16/how-jason-bourne-stores-his-bitcoin/
  99 2014-04-16 00:20:34 <gmaxwell> vetch: damnit, give me a forehead impact warning before telling me about things like that; reeling from the concussion.
 100 2014-04-16 00:21:01 <GAit> gmaxwell: :)
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 102 2014-04-16 00:22:13 <sipa> GAit: no time now
 103 2014-04-16 00:22:53 <vetch> melvster: when the price was around $1200 I considered that the last "challenge" was actually profitable. the scrypt implementation they use is portable to an FPGA, and the PBKDF2 is so weak that it's hardly even a factor.
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 107 2014-04-16 00:24:03 <GAit> melvster: does it reuse addresses?
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 109 2014-04-16 00:24:09 <gmaxwell> melvster: I am disappointed with that design, ignoring the whole space being very dangerous, its lame in a couple of silly ways, like it's not securely delegatable.
 110 2014-04-16 00:24:13 <vetch> GAit: yes, it's just more brain wallet stuff.
 111 2014-04-16 00:24:17 <gmaxwell> and doesnt encode a wallet, just a single key.
 112 2014-04-16 00:24:41 <melvster> ah interesting, i have been thru all the details yet
 113 2014-04-16 00:25:09 <vetch> if the price gets above $1500 it might actually be worthwhile cracking the last warp wallet challenge.
 114 2014-04-16 00:25:23 <gmaxwell> also the lack of delegatability and use in JS means they had to pick fairly weak strenghtening.
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 116 2014-04-16 00:25:43 <vetch> gmaxwell: well, the PBKDF2 is pretty much instant on any CPU out there.
 117 2014-04-16 00:26:05 <gmaxwell> yea, its much less than even bitcoin-qt uses for it regular password kdf... much less a brainwallet.
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 119 2014-04-16 00:26:45 <vetch> the scrypt they chose sadly isn't very FPGA sensible
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 121 2014-04-16 00:27:36 <GAit> gmaxwell: are you self employed?
 122 2014-04-16 00:27:52 <vetch> I worked it out when they originally announced it, but fitting a quarter of a megabyte of memory on chip probably isn't easy
 123 2014-04-16 00:27:53 <coingenuity> GAit: that's kind of a random question
 124 2014-04-16 00:28:10 <stqism> coingenuity: Have you ever pet a sheep?
 125 2014-04-16 00:28:28 <coingenuity> stqism: probably
 126 2014-04-16 00:28:36 <GAit> coingenuity: true, is it a bad question?
 127 2014-04-16 00:28:37 <sipa> stqism: if the moon is green, do you prefer apples over sunlight?
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 130 2014-04-16 00:28:53 <coingenuity> its just a bit out of the blue
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 132 2014-04-16 00:28:59 <stqism> sipa: On weekends during spring, otherwise I'm more of a pear guy
 133 2014-04-16 00:29:08 <sipa> thx
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 137 2014-04-16 00:30:49 <GAit> and the other thing i was wondering is whether should all businesses even outside the states register with the bitcoin-foundation
 138 2014-04-16 00:31:24 <stqism> GAit: No one should have any need to register with them
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 142 2014-04-16 00:32:50 <sipa> if they want to, they can
 143 2014-04-16 00:32:58 <sipa> if they don't, they don't
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 146 2014-04-16 00:34:03 <GAit> all i can say is that i can see many if not all of the btc services i know there registered and that we haven't done it yet and i'm evaluating it
 147 2014-04-16 00:34:07 <vetch> basically to crack that Warp Wallet challenge you'd need to do ~80k attempts a second for the next year and a half to have a 50% chance of cracking it.
 148 2014-04-16 00:34:08 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 149 2014-04-16 00:34:53 <sipa> what does one attempt entail?
 150 2014-04-16 00:35:11 <vetch> scrypt(key=(passphrase||0x1), salt=(salt||0x1), N=218, r=8, p=1, dkLen=32)
 151 2014-04-16 00:35:14 <vetch> pbkdf2(key=(passphrase||0x2), salt=(salt||0x2), c=216, dkLen=32, prf=HMAC_SHA256)
 152 2014-04-16 00:35:21 <sipa> ok
 153 2014-04-16 00:35:30 <vetch> then XOR the results, ECDSA, compare with a given key
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 163 2014-04-16 00:48:23 <gmaxwell> s/ECDSA/multiple with the generator/
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 367 2014-04-16 05:15:18 <warren> wumpus: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=571414.0  anything you want changed before I post this to the dev list?
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 405 2014-04-16 06:24:40 <wumpus> warren: ok great
 406 2014-04-16 06:25:08 <wumpus> so it's working, congratulations :)
 407 2014-04-16 06:25:29 <warren> wumpus: if someone (not me) automates gitian on the same tags then they can be verified and you don't need to trust the nightly builds
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 410 2014-04-16 06:27:01 <wumpus> that's nice about deterministic builds
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 425 2014-04-16 06:53:44 <wumpus> is the script/system that you use to automate the gitian builds open source?
 426 2014-04-16 06:54:50 <wumpus> (well, it's probably a crontab script that launches gbuild, gsign and does an upload, or is there more involved?)
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 444 2014-04-16 07:18:35 <wumpus> I could run a second build server that only validates the nightly builds
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 457 2014-04-16 07:30:08 <warren> wumpus: that would be great
 458 2014-04-16 07:30:25 <warren> wumpus: it's a shell script run from cron
 459 2014-04-16 07:32:47 <warren> wumpus: regarding https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4049#issuecomment-40568703
 460 2014-04-16 07:33:32 <warren> wumpus: can you reproduce the exact git repo where you saw that failure, then show me the output of git rev-list -1 $(git describe --abbrev=0)?
 461 2014-04-16 07:35:33 <wumpus> what I did is `git fetch wtogami`, then `git checkout wtogami/prerelease`, then the usual autogen configure and make stuff
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 463 2014-04-16 07:36:57 <warren> wumpus: ok, I'd like to learn if your git output is different from me
 464 2014-04-16 07:37:01 <wumpus> seems that there is some bash gotcha going on, shell scripting is so brittle
 465 2014-04-16 07:37:38 <wumpus> that command gives me: d6e0e171ab2ca23be33b440d7c007d360de29c48
 466 2014-04-16 07:38:00 <warren> git rev-parse HEAD ?
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 468 2014-04-16 07:38:14 <wumpus> db60debb4a637194cee1b7231921de808bbd8fb7
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 470 2014-04-16 07:39:46 <warren> I wonder if this is a difference between dash and bash
 471 2014-04-16 07:40:07 <warren> i'm trying dash locally
 472 2014-04-16 07:41:36 <warren> wumpus: yup, it's a dash behavior issue
 473 2014-04-16 07:41:47 <wumpus> ok
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 475 2014-04-16 07:41:57 <warren> investigating
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 477 2014-04-16 07:43:14 <wumpus> the statement *looks* like valid bash scripting to me, then again, bash code is very brittle, almost as easy to introduce gotchas and unexpected behavior as PHP
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 479 2014-04-16 07:44:07 <wumpus> that's why I want to port all the tests in qa/rpc-tests to python instead
 480 2014-04-16 07:44:25 <wumpus> but for the build I suppose relying on python wouldn't be nice
 481 2014-04-16 07:46:01 <wumpus> ... it even keeps happening if I first assign left and right to A and B, then leave  if [ "$A" == "$B" ]; then
 482 2014-04-16 07:46:21 <warren> I'm reading dash docs
 483 2014-04-16 07:46:29 <warren> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DashAsBinSh
 484 2014-04-16 07:47:40 <wumpus> replacing the == by = fixes it ...
 485 2014-04-16 07:47:56 <wumpus> well at least: it removes the error, haven't tested functionality
 486 2014-04-16 07:48:20 <wumpus> but according to my bash guide both is valid
 487 2014-04-16 07:48:44 <warren> ugly
 488 2014-04-16 07:48:54 <warren> "The [ command (a.k.a. test) must be used carefully in portable scripts. A very common pitfall is to use the == operator, which is a bashism; use = instead."
 489 2014-04-16 07:49:04 <wumpus> shell script is always ugly, let's make it the goal to make it work
 490 2014-04-16 07:49:19 <warren> by changing it to #!/bin/bash
 491 2014-04-16 07:49:44 <warren> ok, should I repush with = instead of ==?
 492 2014-04-16 07:49:56 <wumpus>  either solution is fine with me
 493 2014-04-16 07:50:26 <warren> I suppose = is more portable than bash
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 496 2014-04-16 07:56:25 <warren> fixing a bug then sending you the nightly builder script
 497 2014-04-16 07:56:34 <warren> I'll open source it after it's matured a bit more
 498 2014-04-16 07:56:56 <wumpus> okay
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 511 2014-04-16 08:09:48 <elichai2> ./bitcoin-qt: /lib/i386-linux-gnu/i686/cmov/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.15' not found (required by ./bitcoin-qt)
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 513 2014-04-16 08:11:09 <wumpus> elichai2: try the builds in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4042
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 515 2014-04-16 08:12:02 <elichai2> any idea?
 516 2014-04-16 08:12:11 <elichai2> debian wheezy, bitcoin-qt 0.9.1
 517 2014-04-16 08:12:39 <wumpus> elichai2: try the builds in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4042
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 521 2014-04-16 08:13:57 <petertodd> Updated my old replace-by-fee patch w/ preferential peering. Works pretty well - even with less than a half-dozen nodes it would find replace-by-fee peers: https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/replace-by-fee-v0.9.1
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 523 2014-04-16 08:14:34 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: does it do CPFP yet?
 524 2014-04-16 08:14:55 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: not yet - wanted to keep it simple enough to be a quick decentralized response to bitundo
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 530 2014-04-16 08:16:17 <petertodd> CPFP will take some time to get implemented anyway, so it's not terribly useful immediately
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 532 2014-04-16 08:16:39 <Luke-Jr> CPFP is already implemented. So it's a regression to not support it :P
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 534 2014-04-16 08:17:19 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: lol, well, actually the patch should be compatible with your CPFP patch
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 583 2014-04-16 08:49:20 <elichai2> wumpus: i tried that, but it's version 0.9.99.0
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 592 2014-04-16 08:52:58 <warren> wumpus: see, the version is confusing =P
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 626 2014-04-16 09:16:34 <splitting> anyone here work with the python rpc api?
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 629 2014-04-16 09:17:08 <splitting> for some reason getbalance() returns nothing
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 645 2014-04-16 09:29:23 <wumpus> elichai2: yes, that's because it is version 0.9.99
 646 2014-04-16 09:29:37 <wumpus> warren: no, it's not confusing, it signals exactly what it should
 647 2014-04-16 09:29:58 <wumpus> elichai2: it would be possible to do a 0.9.1-with-that-patch build though
 648 2014-04-16 09:29:58 <warren> elichai2: just test it, it contains the proposed fix for the issue you were complaining about
 649 2014-04-16 09:30:01 <elichai2> wumpus: and it's equal to 0.9.1
 650 2014-04-16 09:30:11 <elichai2> ok, it's still rescanning
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 654 2014-04-16 09:33:28 <wumpus> elichai2: it's ok for testing, I wouldn't recommend using 0.9.99 in production, if you plan on using it for production it would be better to do a 0.9.1 with just that patch 
 655 2014-04-16 09:34:08 <warren> wumpus: the users who need the binary aren't capable of building it
 656 2014-04-16 09:34:09 <wumpus> if you can wait, we will do a 0.9.2 release some time next month that will include it
 657 2014-04-16 09:34:11 giustoXricordarl has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 658 2014-04-16 09:34:23 <elichai2> A fatal error occured. Bitcoin can no longer continue safley and will quit. EXCEPTION: 13leveldb_error Database curropted bitcoin in Runaway exception
 659 2014-04-16 09:34:36 <wumpus> warren: I know that
 660 2014-04-16 09:34:43 <warren> uh..
 661 2014-04-16 09:35:11 <warren> elichai2: what version were you running before?
 662 2014-04-16 09:36:26 <wumpus> elichai2: can you pastebin the end of debug.log?
 663 2014-04-16 09:37:09 <elichai2> 0.9.0
 664 2014-04-16 09:37:13 <elichai2> (compiled by myself)
 665 2014-04-16 09:37:32 <warren> wumpus: would it be helpful if I commited the gitian.sigs for these nightly builds?  it's a separate repo already: https://github.com/nightlybitcoin/gitian.sigs
 666 2014-04-16 09:38:01 go1111111 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 667 2014-04-16 09:38:23 <wumpus> warren: could be useful; in principle it doesn't matter how you make them available, as long as people can check them, but a git repo is easy to stay in sync with
 668 2014-04-16 09:39:13 <warren> ok adding that
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 671 2014-04-16 09:41:49 <elichai2> warren: http://pastebin.com/R2mJtqR3
 672 2014-04-16 09:41:52 <elichai2> wumpus:
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 675 2014-04-16 09:43:01 <warren> elichai2: did you run out of disk space?
 676 2014-04-16 09:43:19 melvster has joined
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 678 2014-04-16 09:43:23 <warren> elichai2: (write a big file in that directory to check)
 679 2014-04-16 09:44:29 <wumpus> "2014-04-16 09:31:15 Corruption: truncated block read" ... sounds like one of the block files is corrupted
 680 2014-04-16 09:44:31 <elichai2> no
 681 2014-04-16 09:44:38 <warren> oh
 682 2014-04-16 09:44:43 <elichai2> my blockchain are in a seperate partition
 683 2014-04-16 09:44:51 <elichai2> tha has 18GB free
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 685 2014-04-16 09:45:29 <wumpus> did it happen at the same block both times?
 686 2014-04-16 09:45:45 <elichai2> http://pastebin.com/4mrrYiEk
 687 2014-04-16 09:45:51 <elichai2> idk
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 690 2014-04-16 09:46:57 <warren> wumpus: https://github.com/nightlybitcoin/gitian.sigs  auto-commit now working
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 694 2014-04-16 09:49:27 <wumpus> warren: when building #4049, the version appearing as: v0.9.99.0-cab7988-beta . Is this correct?
 695 2014-04-16 09:49:52 <warren> wumpus: yes
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 697 2014-04-16 09:50:13 <elichai2> wumpus: so?
 698 2014-04-16 09:50:15 <warren> wumpus: the count since the tag and g prefix are not useful anymore given it isn't a git identifier
 699 2014-04-16 09:50:17 <sipa> can someone summarize the new rule for version names?
 700 2014-04-16 09:50:50 <wumpus> warren: ah.. I understand why, I merged your pull as a pull request locally, instead of just checking out your branch, hence the different git id
 701 2014-04-16 09:50:59 Emzy has joined
 702 2014-04-16 09:51:34 <warren> sipa: it gets version from configure.ac, adds git short hash and maybe dirty
 703 2014-04-16 09:51:42 <wumpus> sipa: <version>-<gitid>[-dirty], unless the head commit has a tag, then that tag is added instead of the git id
 704 2014-04-16 09:51:44 <warren> sipa: unless the latest commit is tagged, then it uses that instead
 705 2014-04-16 09:51:58 <sipa> and something about branches?
 706 2014-04-16 09:52:04 <warren> nothing about branches
 707 2014-04-16 09:52:15 <elichai2> wumpus: :(
 708 2014-04-16 09:52:28 <sipa> ok, i must have misread
 709 2014-04-16 09:52:49 <wumpus> elichai2: I have a hard time believing that this is caused by the 0.9.99 upgrade
 710 2014-04-16 09:52:51 benrcole has joined
 711 2014-04-16 09:53:02 <wumpus> elichai2: maybe your block files were already corrupted and the rescan made this visible
 712 2014-04-16 09:53:19 <elichai2> :(
 713 2014-04-16 09:53:24 <sipa> elichai2: didn't you previously have bad ram problems?
 714 2014-04-16 09:53:25 <elichai2> so to reindex them?
 715 2014-04-16 09:53:42 <elichai2> i did got that error before upgrading...
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 727 2014-04-16 09:55:45 <elichai2> so i must -reindex?
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 729 2014-04-16 09:56:03 <wumpus> yes
 730 2014-04-16 09:56:11 <elichai2> it is possible that my RAM got correptued because of bitcoin
 731 2014-04-16 09:56:25 <elichai2> i can reindex by bootstrap, right?
 732 2014-04-16 09:58:16 <wumpus> well there are two options, either remove the block data and re-bootstrap, or just -reindex with the current block data (it will just use that part up to the corruption/missing blocks)
 733 2014-04-16 09:58:35 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 734 2014-04-16 09:58:54 <wumpus> ...the first option sounds slightly more predictable
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 736 2014-04-16 09:59:41 <elichai2> ohh -reindex just will reverify the blockchain from hard disk?
 737 2014-04-16 09:59:47 <wumpus> yes
 738 2014-04-16 09:59:48 <sipa> yes
 739 2014-04-16 09:59:57 <elichai2> so, it's better, right?
 740 2014-04-16 10:00:08 <sipa> how do you mean?
 741 2014-04-16 10:00:14 <wumpus> ... better in what way?
 742 2014-04-16 10:00:19 <elichai2> better than bootstrap
 743 2014-04-16 10:00:23 <wumpus> why?
 744 2014-04-16 10:00:27 <wumpus> bootstrap = 100% sure
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 746 2014-04-16 10:00:38 <sipa> it's exactly the same as bootstrap
 747 2014-04-16 10:00:42 <elichai2> yeah but bootstrap is more slow
 748 2014-04-16 10:00:51 <sipa> no, it's exactly thr same
 749 2014-04-16 10:00:52 <elichai2> becuase it's compressed...
 750 2014-04-16 10:01:00 <sipa> it is not compressed in any way
 751 2014-04-16 10:01:15 <elichai2> really?
 752 2014-04-16 10:01:17 <sipa> yes
 753 2014-04-16 10:01:29 <sipa> block data is pretty hard to compress
 754 2014-04-16 10:01:39 <warren> might be slower because it has to copy and write
 755 2014-04-16 10:01:40 <wumpus> sipa: that depends on where the corruption is, if blocks are missing early it will start fetching from the network from there, right?
 756 2014-04-16 10:01:49 <warren> OTOH the blockchain synced from the network might be full of orphans
 757 2014-04-16 10:02:00 <sipa> wumpus: right, but his bootstrap.dat may be corrupted too
 758 2014-04-16 10:02:04 <wumpus> sipa: right
 759 2014-04-16 10:02:25 <elichai2> so -reindex then?
 760 2014-04-16 10:02:39 <sipa> if you still have bootstrap, use that first
 761 2014-04-16 10:02:41 <elichai2> (i don't think it's corrupted because i reviryfied it through toorent)
 762 2014-04-16 10:02:44 <warren> wumpus: i'm going ahead with announcement of nightly builds, ok?
 763 2014-04-16 10:02:51 <wumpus> warren: sure!
 764 2014-04-16 10:02:56 <elichai2> warren: +1
 765 2014-04-16 10:03:02 <elichai2> thats awessome!
 766 2014-04-16 10:03:05 <warren> wumpus: then tomorrow will edit and post the dev roadmap that refers to it
 767 2014-04-16 10:03:15 <elichai2> for the bitcoin-dev?
 768 2014-04-16 10:03:31 Guyver2 has joined
 769 2014-04-16 10:04:01 <elichai2> *bitcoin-qt
 770 2014-04-16 10:04:04 <elichai2> right?
 771 2014-04-16 10:04:36 <sipa> bitcoin core it is called now
 772 2014-04-16 10:05:05 SwampTony has joined
 773 2014-04-16 10:11:05 <elichai2> that cool, but what would you add to the core?
 774 2014-04-16 10:11:15 <elichai2> and it won't make some kind of a fork?
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 776 2014-04-16 10:13:52 <sipa> wth are you talking about?
 777 2014-04-16 10:14:04 <sipa> the project was just renamed
 778 2014-04-16 10:14:27 <elichai2> i'm talking about the nightly brunch
 779 2014-04-16 10:14:47 <sipa> you're not supposed to use it for anything but testing of course
 780 2014-04-16 10:16:01 <elichai2> btw, you ever thought about translating bitcoin core to other languages?
 781 2014-04-16 10:16:09 <sipa> no
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 783 2014-04-16 10:16:33 <sipa> we can hardly managed to avoid forking bugs when changing small parts of the consensus-critical code
 784 2014-04-16 10:16:50 <sipa> translating it to another language is totally crazy imho
 785 2014-04-16 10:18:55 <elichai2> it showed that i've disconnected?
 786 2014-04-16 10:19:13 <sipa> ?
 787 2014-04-16 10:19:18 Raziel has joined
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 790 2014-04-16 10:20:00 <elichai2> you saw that i disconnected and then reconnected a minute ago?
 791 2014-04-16 10:20:10 <elichai2> (i have new bnc and want to know that it's working)
 792 2014-04-16 10:20:28 freggles has joined
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 794 2014-04-16 10:22:03 <elichai2> when are you announcing about the nightly builds?
 795 2014-04-16 10:24:38 <sipa> ask warren
 796 2014-04-16 10:24:50 <sipa> i did not see a disconnect/reconnect
 797 2014-04-16 10:25:01 <elichai2> sipa: can you please have a look here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=19296.0
 798 2014-04-16 10:25:03 <elichai2> sipa: thx
 799 2014-04-16 10:26:09 <sipa> that's ancient
 800 2014-04-16 10:26:15 <sipa> look at the date
 801 2014-04-16 10:26:50 <elichai2> ohhh :(
 802 2014-04-16 10:26:59 <elichai2> and all the links there dead...
 803 2014-04-16 10:28:29 hearn has joined
 804 2014-04-16 10:31:15 <sipa> it was also a really bad idea
 805 2014-04-16 10:31:52 <warren> I have a self GPG signed index to use with bootstrap.dat ... but I don't distribute it.
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 811 2014-04-16 10:41:01 <sipa> bootstrap.dat is safe
 812 2014-04-16 10:41:06 <sipa> even unsigned
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 815 2014-04-16 10:42:05 <wumpus> I think he means to say he signs the index, not bootstrap.dat
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 820 2014-04-16 10:43:38 <sipa> oh, right!
 821 2014-04-16 10:43:41 <sipa> i misread
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 834 2014-04-16 11:05:48 <elichai2> warren: when the announcement will be?
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 847 2014-04-16 11:15:48 <warren> elichai2: why does it matter?
 848 2014-04-16 11:16:10 <elichai2> just want to know :)
 849 2014-04-16 11:16:17 <elichai2> maybe the price will go up then lol
 850 2014-04-16 11:16:55 <wumpus> just hoping they won't use nightlies in production...
 851 2014-04-16 11:17:45 <wumpus> luckily the builds will have the big 'do not use for mining and merchant applications' warning
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 853 2014-04-16 11:18:59 <elichai2> yeah
 854 2014-04-16 11:19:13 <elichai2> wumpus: so you saying not to use the beta for normal wallet client?
 855 2014-04-16 11:19:18 <elichai2> (i'm not minning...)
 856 2014-04-16 11:19:25 <sipa> elichai2: every bitcoin release has been beta
 857 2014-04-16 11:19:26 <wumpus> all bitcoin releases are "beta"
 858 2014-04-16 11:19:44 <sipa> elichai2: but no, don't use release candidates or nightlies or anything but a full release for production
 859 2014-04-16 11:19:56 axvf has joined
 860 2014-04-16 11:20:01 <elichai2> sipa: no lol i talked about the nightlies and 0.9.99.0
 861 2014-04-16 11:20:06 <wumpus> I'm saying that you shouldn't use a nightly for normal wallet client *unless you take proper precautions, and are willing to take the risks*
 862 2014-04-16 11:20:28 <elichai2> sipa: and there is diffrence between self compiled client and official binaries?
 863 2014-04-16 11:20:28 <sipa> ^ that
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 865 2014-04-16 11:20:49 <sipa> elichai2: you shouldn't use self compiled code that is not an actual release tag either...
 866 2014-04-16 11:21:41 <elichai2> no, i'll compile the main brunch
 867 2014-04-16 11:21:51 <elichai2> or the 0.9.1 brunch?
 868 2014-04-16 11:21:54 <sipa> the master branch is where all development happens
 869 2014-04-16 11:22:03 <sipa> if you want to build a release, checkout the tag and build that
 870 2014-04-16 11:22:08 <sipa> git checkout v0.9.1
 871 2014-04-16 11:22:10 <sipa> for example
 872 2014-04-16 11:22:12 <elichai2> ok,
 873 2014-04-16 11:22:42 <elichai2> because 0.9.1 official not working in debian wheezy, and i have now 0.9.99
 874 2014-04-16 11:23:11 <wumpus> well, if you compile 0.9.1 yourself it will work fine on debian wheezy
 875 2014-04-16 11:24:21 <wumpus> so check out and build the tag: git checkout v0.9.1 && ./autogen.sh && ./configure ... && make
 876 2014-04-16 11:24:41 <Luke-Jr> may need ./configure --with-incompatible-bdb
 877 2014-04-16 11:25:00 <warren> Personally I'd trust the gitian build more than self-compiled
 878 2014-04-16 11:25:05 <warren> you have no idea what they're building against
 879 2014-04-16 11:25:45 <wumpus> in generally that also doesn't matter
 880 2014-04-16 11:26:08 <wumpus> it's not like the dependencies used by gitian are somehow holy and bug-free
 881 2014-04-16 11:26:22 <warren> they are not? =)
 882 2014-04-16 11:26:28 <elichai2> wumpus: yeah, i compiled 0.9.0 already(before 0.9.1)
 883 2014-04-16 11:26:30 <wumpus> alas
 884 2014-04-16 11:26:30 <warren> they're at least predictable
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 886 2014-04-16 11:26:48 <elichai2> just want to know if there's diffrence between compiling myself and official binary
 887 2014-04-16 11:27:04 <sipa> yes
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 889 2014-04-16 11:27:18 <sipa> if you compile yourself, you'll use whatever dependencies exist on your system
 890 2014-04-16 11:27:36 <sipa> instead of somewhat more controlled specific versions that are used for the release binaries
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 892 2014-04-16 11:28:10 <elichai2> yeah, but someone told me that leveldb error is more rare in official binary than from source
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 894 2014-04-16 11:28:37 <wumpus> elichai2: that'd be strange; we embed leveldb in the repository, we never use the system leveldb
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 896 2014-04-16 11:31:01 <elichai2> wumpus: that means?
 897 2014-04-16 11:31:01 <sipa> some distros patch the bitcoin source to use system leveldb, i think :(
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 901 2014-04-16 11:35:18 <warren> If Bitcoin officially forked leveldb you could bypass that policy in distros ...
 902 2014-04-16 11:35:44 <sipa> you know my opinion on that
 903 2014-04-16 11:35:45 <warren> Chromium has similar reasons for embedding their own libraries, and Fedora refuses to accept it for that reason.
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 905 2014-04-16 11:36:57 <warren> sipa: isn't distro leveldb incompatible now?  the .sst issue
 906 2014-04-16 11:37:23 <sipa> we read from both .ldb and .sst, but use .sst for writing
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 908 2014-04-16 11:37:28 <Luke-Jr> warren: Chromium has zero legitimate reason to embed libraries
 909 2014-04-16 11:37:33 <sipa> so no, we are compatible
 910 2014-04-16 11:37:54 <Luke-Jr> sipa: we should have just wrote .ldb since it's incompatible with 0.8.x anyway <.<
 911 2014-04-16 11:38:14 <sipa> yeah, for 0.9 we could have reverted to the default
 912 2014-04-16 11:38:31 <warren> the incompatible part was committed later
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 915 2014-04-16 11:38:56 <sipa> if 0.10 has headers-first stuff, the database will be backward incompatibly changed anyway, so we'll have a new chance to revert there
 916 2014-04-16 11:39:08 <warren> good point
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 918 2014-04-16 11:39:30 * warren sleep
 919 2014-04-16 11:40:50 <Luke-Jr> why is headers-first changing the index format?
 920 2014-04-16 11:41:42 <elichai2> sipa: so how can i make sure that it won't use leveldb?
 921 2014-04-16 11:42:33 <sipa> Luke-Jr: because the index can now have headers which don't have associated block data
 922 2014-04-16 11:42:57 <sipa> elichai2: if you compile code checkout out from bitcoin's repository, you always use our leveldb
 923 2014-04-16 11:43:25 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it's not technically changing any encoding, but the old implementation code can't deal with that case
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 926 2014-04-16 11:48:10 <elichai2> sipa: ok, so when the 0.9.99 will finish reindexing the blocks i'll compile 0.9.1
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 929 2014-04-16 11:50:23 <GAit> petertodd: your reddit post wasn't very popular
 930 2014-04-16 11:50:45 <GAit> isn't it just Gresham's Law?
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 942 2014-04-16 11:58:02 <vetch> GAit: it's too long. needs to be put into a meme for Reddit users to upvote it.
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 945 2014-04-16 11:59:35 <GAit> imho assuming miners are greedy it's a good argument. They are, they hop on different pools and coins and they have huge investments in mining equipment. If big corporations and mostly $$ oriented why would you expect large miner operations to be any different?
 946 2014-04-16 11:59:58 <GAit> s/big corporations and/big corporations are/
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 949 2014-04-16 12:01:35 <sipa> GAit: here "miners" usually refers to those actually building blocks
 950 2014-04-16 12:01:44 <sipa> GAit: not hashers who just sell their hashrate to a pool
 951 2014-04-16 12:01:52 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I still don't like the idea of "importaddress" not being for addresses. Surely there's a better name (or maybe accept either hex or address format in importscriptpubkey)?
 952 2014-04-16 12:02:05 <GAit> sipa: sure, now is all about pools
 953 2014-04-16 12:02:21 <Luke-Jr> (maybe in the future, we will want "importaddress" to actually have a similar behaviour for the actual address..)
 954 2014-04-16 12:02:31 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it is for addresses
 955 2014-04-16 12:02:40 <sipa> Luke-Jr: an address is a shorthand for a specific scriptpubkey
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 959 2014-04-16 12:03:07 <Luke-Jr> sipa: an address is opaque, and only shorthand for a scriptpubkey when receiving (not controlling)
 960 2014-04-16 12:03:14 <GAit> but the argument that pools wouldn't do it because it would lower overall value doesn't really hold off I think, people choose every day high rewards credit card which make overall value less for everyone, but better for them.
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 963 2014-04-16 12:04:29 <Luke-Jr> sipa: There is a real use case for watching *actual* addresses (and observing receipt, but not the unrelated sends)
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 966 2014-04-16 12:04:45 <Luke-Jr> (independent of your use case, not instead-of)
 967 2014-04-16 12:04:56 <sipa> Luke-Jr: which is perfectly covered by this implementation
 968 2014-04-16 12:05:14 <Luke-Jr> is it? how do I watch the address without getting the unrelated send transactions in the wallet?
 969 2014-04-16 12:05:22 <sipa> by ignoring those
 970 2014-04-16 12:05:35 <sipa> by using getreceivedbyaddress, which is already for that use case
 971 2014-04-16 12:05:51 <Luke-Jr> ignoring those is not something listtransactions/GUI support
 972 2014-04-16 12:06:17 <sipa> well, the RPC is called "importaddress"
 973 2014-04-16 12:06:20 <sipa> not "watchaddress"
 974 2014-04-16 12:06:29 <sipa> it adds that address to what the wallet considers its own
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 976 2014-04-16 12:07:44 <Luke-Jr> it adds the scriptpubkey, not just the address.
 977 2014-04-16 12:07:57 <sipa> an address is a shorthand for a scriptpubkey
 978 2014-04-16 12:08:38 <Luke-Jr> it's supposed to be an opaque identifier, not a shorthand.
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 980 2014-04-16 12:08:51 <sipa> i'm tired of this discussion, sorry
 981 2014-04-16 12:09:00 <melvster> sorry net disconnected ...
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 984 2014-04-16 12:10:56 <melvster> *not sure if this came thru* ... it's not in the log, apologies if it's a repost
 985 2014-04-16 12:10:58 <melvster> in the coinbase of the genesis block it's kind of big endian, yet everything else in the genesis block is little endian, right?
 986 2014-04-16 12:11:52 <sipa> afaik there is nothing big-endian ever, except some cryptography-related things
 987 2014-04-16 12:11:53 <melvster> *the message about the chancellor I mean* in the coinbase
 988 2014-04-16 12:12:05 <sipa> which bitcoin treats as byte arrays, not as numbers
 989 2014-04-16 12:12:12 <sipa> ... text is not a number
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 991 2014-04-16 12:12:19 <melvster> sipa: ah ok thanks, so it's just backward in english
 992 2014-04-16 12:12:27 <sipa> big/litte endian is how you encode numbers
 993 2014-04-16 12:12:33 <melvster> oic
 994 2014-04-16 12:12:39 <sipa> yes, english uses "big endian decimal" to write numbers
 995 2014-04-16 12:13:04 <melvster> interesting thanks
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 997 2014-04-16 12:13:26 <hearn> hello
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1000 2014-04-16 12:14:52 <hearn> GAit: lots of people don’t have/can’t get credit cards, actually.
1001 2014-04-16 12:15:00 <hearn> so “people” is a large generalisation :)
1002 2014-04-16 12:16:24 <GAit> hearn: my reasoning on it is better explained in this blog that talks about credit card and back in the day altered coins, Gresham's law, I think it applies to pools too
1003 2014-04-16 12:16:34 <GAit>  http://jpkoning.blogspot.it/2014/04/greshams-law-and-credit-cards.html
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1007 2014-04-16 12:19:07 <hearn> GAit: the card contracts have been struck down in some parts of the world for that reason
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1009 2014-04-16 12:19:43 <GAit> so regulation is the solution? on bitcoin pools?
1010 2014-04-16 12:20:16 <hearn> what was the question, sorry?
1011 2014-04-16 12:20:20 <hearn> i didn’t see all the prior discussion
1012 2014-04-16 12:21:42 <GAit> the question is whether we can prevent in any distributed way, i.e. without regulation, things like bitundo
1013 2014-04-16 12:22:00 <sipa> no,i don't think so
1014 2014-04-16 12:22:11 <sipa> (and i think it's inevitable)
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1016 2014-04-16 12:22:27 <vetch> I doubt bitundo will ever gain anything approaching a usably large pool
1017 2014-04-16 12:22:50 <hearn> “we” cannot prevent anything, seeing as we developers have little to no power, however “we” can point out to people that it’s an ultimately self defeating strategy that would be unwise to adopt
1018 2014-04-16 12:22:53 <vetch> an API for wallets and merchants to request retractions and block them? come on.
1019 2014-04-16 12:23:17 <hearn> ultimately if the bitcoin community wants to self destruct, nobody can stop it from doing so
1020 2014-04-16 12:23:24 <hearn> it would of course be very sad if that were to happen
1021 2014-04-16 12:23:52 <GAit> hearn: i don't it would self destruct
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1024 2014-04-16 12:24:01 <sipa> as fees become more important income sources for miners, i believe that at some point miners will want more competion on that market
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1026 2014-04-16 12:24:35 <GAit> just like you need third parties for escrow you may need third parties for speed, or otherwise you just wait your confirmations. This has no impact on most ecommerce, is just a in shop or person to person friction point
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1029 2014-04-16 12:24:56 <hearn> bitundo could of course also charge for undoing txns that already appeared in blocks
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1031 2014-04-16 12:25:09 <hearn> there’s nothing special about pending txns in that regard. it’s just a matter of price.
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1033 2014-04-16 12:25:16 <GAit> that is a much harder thing to do
1034 2014-04-16 12:25:25 <vetch> if the price is right
1035 2014-04-16 12:25:28 <sipa> there they have at least the subsidy to compete against
1036 2014-04-16 12:25:38 <hearn> and obviously if you end up needing third parties for common classes of transactions, bitcoin loses its raison d’etre, doesn’t it?
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1038 2014-04-16 12:25:41 <vetch> if there's more than 25BTC of incentive to reverse a block, then it will happen
1039 2014-04-16 12:25:43 <GAit> and would self destroy bitcoin, so the price has to be huge and you would already make tons of money in fees/blocks
1040 2014-04-16 12:25:46 <hearn> the entire point of bitcoin is to allow direct payments between people with no third parties
1041 2014-04-16 12:26:01 <GAit> hearn: can you do an escrow without third parties?
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1044 2014-04-16 12:26:18 <GAit> it allows it, but instead of being seconds is hours or use a third party
1045 2014-04-16 12:26:36 <GAit> or 10 minutes on avg if one block is deemed ok
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1047 2014-04-16 12:26:58 <hearn> you mean a dispute mediated transaction? by definition, no, but for many transactions you don’t need mediation and when you do, that’s not because of any issue with bitcoin. heck we manage an entire economy with none whatsoever today, although that’s hardly a great place to be
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1049 2014-04-16 12:28:02 <hearn> if you end up needing third parties because of some inherent issue with bitcoin, and not the seller in question, then that’s rather different and much worse
1050 2014-04-16 12:28:02 <GAit> hearn: ok so not escrow as per definition but some sort of safety net in case the counterparty doesn't deliver, some sort of funds locking mechanism/auto destruction thing. As far as I know that still requires a third party
1051 2014-04-16 12:28:17 <vetch> you need a mediator.
1052 2014-04-16 12:28:28 <vetch> the blockchain can't make decisions for itself.
1053 2014-04-16 12:28:52 <hearn> sort of
1054 2014-04-16 12:29:01 <hearn> the people making the block chain obviously can set any rules they want
1055 2014-04-16 12:29:23 <hearn> for instance, you could have a transaction type that requires a PDF digitally signed by FedEx to be attached to it. this would be a bizarre and wrong-headed design, but it could be done.
1056 2014-04-16 12:29:53 <vetch> I've read about people's ideas for making a distributed mediation, but it always completely falls apart when you get to the decision making. they usually involve a lot of participants, but there's no way of preventing sybil attacks.
1057 2014-04-16 12:29:58 <hearn> then you wouldn’t need any third party mediator to decide if a package had been delivered, just the proof from the delivery company. in practice it’s probably better to use a third party in that case. but it’s always worth looking for ways to optimise them out
1058 2014-04-16 12:30:21 <vetch> hearn: that doesn't cover all of the use cases of the mediator. what if the seller sent a box of bricks?
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1060 2014-04-16 12:31:09 <GAit> if we use regulation for this, what stops regualtor from adding white listing?
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1062 2014-04-16 12:31:12 <hearn> sure. but most existing dispute mediation systems (in paypal etc) don’t handle that case well either. i’m not saying we don’t need third party mediators, we clearly do, just pointing out that for some of the things they would be used for, it could be integrated into bitcoin
1063 2014-04-16 12:31:43 <hearn> GAit: “regulation” just means rules, doesn’t it. it’s quite possible for private sector systems to “regulate” themselves though that’s not normally what people think of when they hear the word
1064 2014-04-16 12:31:52 <hearn> in a sense miners regulate the system and each other today
1065 2014-04-16 12:32:01 <hearn> bitundo is attempting to bribe the regulators, in effect
1066 2014-04-16 12:32:01 <GAit> i can see the private corporations regulating them selves just great
1067 2014-04-16 12:32:48 <GAit> they get beaten up by their boards and investors if they don't take advantage of every possible legal and para legal thing
1068 2014-04-16 12:32:52 <vetch> hearn: you'd also need some way of getting the PDF proof to everybody who needs to verify the block. else you've got a trusted oracle doing the verification.
1069 2014-04-16 12:33:14 <hearn> vetch: yes. that’s why i said “attach”. it’d go into the block chain. obviously not a scheme that’s really affordable with current technology.
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1071 2014-04-16 12:33:31 <hearn> vetch: one can imagine a far more tightly defined specialised format that could be affordable though
1072 2014-04-16 12:33:49 <vetch> hearn: right, sorry, I interpreted "attach" as "post a hash"
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1076 2014-04-16 12:34:18 <hearn> ah nope. i meant literally attach :) satoshi designed the p2p protocol to allow for this kind of thing actually. you could add extra data to the end of a tx message and it’d be relayed. it got taken out though
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1083 2014-04-16 12:35:00 <hearn> GAit: there are plenty of examples of it working. the CA system is one such example.
1084 2014-04-16 12:35:08 <hearn> in that world the “regulators” are the browser and OS makers
1085 2014-04-16 12:35:16 <hearn> though we don’t tend to think of them as such
1086 2014-04-16 12:35:38 <GAit> hearn: the CA system is not a good example, as they will lose all business immediately if found out, with the pool miners know what they are doing
1087 2014-04-16 12:36:20 <hearn> it was an example of private sector regulation rather than a direct analogy to our situation. for it to apply to bitcoin, node/wallet developers would have to contain lists of trusted miners
1088 2014-04-16 12:36:24 <hearn> or something like that
1089 2014-04-16 12:36:49 <hearn> obviously the super-lightweight / anonymous mining design is highly convenient and useful in many ways, it’s something we definitely want to keep
1090 2014-04-16 12:36:51 <GAit> yeah then it would be comparable
1091 2014-04-16 12:37:15 <hearn> but if miners stop running the system in the way other stakeholders want, then we might end up losing it
1092 2014-04-16 12:37:19 <hearn> hopefully it never comes to that
1093 2014-04-16 12:37:46 <GAit> but then is also not decentralized in the same way
1094 2014-04-16 12:37:47 banghouse has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1095 2014-04-16 12:37:51 <GAit> it can be corrupted
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1098 2014-04-16 12:39:15 <hearn> decentralisation is a spectrum. yes it’d be less decentralised, of course. i was only pointing out that if the system is already corrupted, there isn’t much alternative but to either change it or abandon it
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1106 2014-04-16 12:47:20 <GAit> hearn: i don't think double spend was ever considered impossible and current miners can easily do this as a low marginal cost (although they may lose on reputation) even for small tx value. I don't know for sure how it will play out but i  have always thought that as long as there is sufficiently large incentive to do it people will do it,
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1109 2014-04-16 12:47:54 <GAit> i don't think there is enough incentive to do block rewrite consistently but double spend like bitundo, yeah, easy
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1112 2014-04-16 12:49:06 <hearn> miners don’t have reputation - they are anonymous
1113 2014-04-16 12:49:15 <GAit> pools are not
1114 2014-04-16 12:49:21 <vetch> pools can be
1115 2014-04-16 12:49:32 <hearn> pools are just collections of miners
1116 2014-04-16 12:49:34 <GAit> yeah they can be anonymous but also have a reputation
1117 2014-04-16 12:49:40 <hearn> plus, you can’t reliably identify who mined a block
1118 2014-04-16 12:50:45 <vetch> you can false attribute them too
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1120 2014-04-16 12:51:18 <hearn> in practice bitundo type double spending is not likely to become a serious issue for most sellers
1121 2014-04-16 12:51:53 <GAit> what do you base this on? the fact that they wait for confirmations or the fact that no wallet has integrated bitundo yet?
1122 2014-04-16 12:51:56 <hearn> because you need to be informed when the pool has found a block, and then “auto buy” from the seller. every seconds delay between solving a block and resolving the purchase is a second in which some other miner can find a block at the same height and broadcast it, losing you your work
1123 2014-04-16 12:52:31 <hearn> this “auto buying” is in practice something that requires a program to do, and it requires a seller that automatically sells something of value quickly and irreversibly
1124 2014-04-16 12:52:44 <hearn> most sellers do not wait for any confirmations, in fact i’d say the vast majority do not
1125 2014-04-16 12:52:53 <hearn> which is why it’s important to try and keep unconfirmed transactions useful
1126 2014-04-16 12:52:53 <GAit> if it works even once out of 10 is still good and i don't see why people won't exploit it, they expoit CC issues don't they?
1127 2014-04-16 12:53:11 <hearn> GAit: only if you are OK with actually purchasing 9 of the things
1128 2014-04-16 12:53:35 <GAit> if it's stuff easy to resell on a small loss then it can easily make up for it
1129 2014-04-16 12:54:01 <hearn> if you’re constantly buying things over and over again AND the merchant does not require you to ID yourself AND the merchant is on auto pilot and sells within seconds AND you have a software setup that’s all integrated with this THEN it can earn you some money, sometimes, assuming you don’t get dragged to court for fraud
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1131 2014-04-16 12:54:46 <hearn> in practice merchants that get whacked by this kind of thing will just end up requiring ID verification of buyers
1132 2014-04-16 12:55:18 <hearn> which is annoying and painful, but it will push wallet authors to make automatic IDV easier for people. of course we lose some of the nice privacy aspects then, so it’s not ideal and is better if miners don’t do it
1133 2014-04-16 12:55:24 <hearn> basically bitundo just means bitcoin gets worse in various aspects
1134 2014-04-16 12:55:36 <GAit> agreed it can't be used in all circumstances however people tend to find a way and will take advantage of it. Just like we reccomend to never reuse key pairs we should reccomend to not trust 0 confirmation, IMHO
1135 2014-04-16 12:55:43 <hearn> if it gets sufficiently worse, of course, then it won’t be competitive with banking any more and people will lose interest. this is what i meant by “self destruct"
1136 2014-04-16 12:55:47 <vetch> hearn: and the bitundo guy makes bank doing it.
1137 2014-04-16 12:56:01 <hearn> well there are lots of ways to make money by trashing bitcoin
1138 2014-04-16 12:56:20 <hearn> e.g. find a way to do a large short sell (anyone who allows short selling of bitcoin has no clue what they’re doing, imo) and then DoS the network
1139 2014-04-16 12:56:29 <hearn> it’s a very vulnerable thing that can easily be damaged for profit
1140 2014-04-16 12:57:34 <GAit> hearn: but that improves as the network becomes stronger and bigger and more people adopt bitcoin
1141 2014-04-16 12:58:26 <hearn> er, no
1142 2014-04-16 12:58:48 <hearn> it disrupts bitcoin for days, weeks or months then everyone sells when they realise that what they thought was a honey badger is more like a glass vase
1143 2014-04-16 12:59:10 <hearn> it’s not like someone shorting bitcoin and attacking it magically makes skilled C++ developers who can work full time show up and start producing quality code
1144 2014-04-16 12:59:16 melvster has joined
1145 2014-04-16 12:59:20 <hearn> at least, nowhere near fast enough to react
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1147 2014-04-16 13:00:56 <GAit> maybe i was clear, i can see this being a problem now but i have hope that in time this will be less of an issue
1148 2014-04-16 13:01:00 <GAit> wasn't*
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1150 2014-04-16 13:02:20 <hearn> yes in theory, but i am skeptical we can ever make bitcoin invincible
1151 2014-04-16 13:02:27 <hearn> there will always be ways to attack the infrastructure
1152 2014-04-16 13:02:43 <hearn> especially because nobody owns it and it’s not clear that anyone could really be prosecuted for attacking it, as such
1153 2014-04-16 13:02:52 <vetch> Bitcoin has a massive bus factor.
1154 2014-04-16 13:03:03 <vetch> yeah sure, other people can pick up the slack, but there's a lot of learning involved before you can
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1159 2014-04-16 13:04:25 <hno> what are we talking about exactly?
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1161 2014-04-16 13:04:27 <hearn> good day gavinandresen
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1163 2014-04-16 13:04:41 <gavinandresen> howdy hearn
1164 2014-04-16 13:04:53 <hearn> hno: bitundo
1165 2014-04-16 13:05:06 agricocb has joined
1166 2014-04-16 13:05:48 <hno> sorry, missing the piece on what bitundo is.
1167 2014-04-16 13:05:59 <GAit> double spend service, or undo tx service
1168 2014-04-16 13:06:00 <vetch> tl;dr: a pool and service designed to mine conflicting transactions for a fee.
1169 2014-04-16 13:06:21 <hearn> yeah. finney attack for a 10% fee, essentially. not sure how much hash power they have. the creator only just announced it
1170 2014-04-16 13:06:45 <vetch> negligible hash power. they're wanting pools and wallet software to cooperate.
1171 2014-04-16 13:06:51 <GAit> double fee if you don't want your attempt to be seen on the network (if it doesn't work that is, because when it does it will be seen)
1172 2014-04-16 13:06:56 Adrao has joined
1173 2014-04-16 13:07:42 <vetch> they're using Eoipool and not showing their stats, so who knows how big they are really.
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1175 2014-04-16 13:08:53 <vetch> Do you only support stratum?
1176 2014-04-16 13:09:02 <vetch> Yes. Getwork is too inefficient, and GBT leaks information about attempted undos, that users have asked us not to share.
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1178 2014-04-16 13:10:01 <hearn> hah
1179 2014-04-16 13:10:10 <hearn> the “undo service” thing is so paper thin
1180 2014-04-16 13:10:28 <vetch> it's basically a hacking tool. there's no other reason for "hiding" the undos.
1181 2014-04-16 13:10:54 <GAit> as true at that may be once it moves to tor (if it does) there is no way of stopping it, is there?
1182 2014-04-16 13:11:04 <GAit> there is an incetive for people to ALWAYS attempt it when leaving a shop that accepts 0 confirmation, especially if the shop is not likely to remember you and it can be trivially implemented as a button in the wallet unconfirmed tx page.
1183 2014-04-16 13:11:41 <hearn> the incentive is not getting arrested
1184 2014-04-16 13:11:43 <vetch> no wallet is going to implement that centralised API
1185 2014-04-16 13:11:52 <vetch> it's suicidal.
1186 2014-04-16 13:12:00 <hearn> i think a good lawyer could convince a judge that doing that is analogous to paying with forged notes
1187 2014-04-16 13:12:14 <epscy> just to be clear bitundo only works for unconfirmed txes?
1188 2014-04-16 13:12:18 <GAit> if it can be proven that nobody else had access to the keys
1189 2014-04-16 13:12:21 <hearn> vetch: bitundo could easily provide a forked version of a popular wallet that has the button
1190 2014-04-16 13:12:23 <epscy> s/works/may work/
1191 2014-04-16 13:12:23 <vetch> epscy: indeed.
1192 2014-04-16 13:12:38 <epscy> i just can't get worked up about it then
1193 2014-04-16 13:12:38 <GAit> hearn: exactly, bitundo could patch all wallets and provide them as foss packages
1194 2014-04-16 13:12:40 <vetch> hearn: they are providing a fork of Bitcoin Core for mining with.
1195 2014-04-16 13:13:01 <vetch> who would trust a binary from someone running a hacking service?
1196 2014-04-16 13:13:11 <hearn> right. they’re basically promoting a forked version of bitcoin, which uses a different rule set, but the same block chain
1197 2014-04-16 13:13:14 <GAit> you are talking about this as if credit card fraud doesn't exist, it exist and it is a huge issue
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1199 2014-04-16 13:13:30 <GAit> even if illegal
1200 2014-04-16 13:13:41 <hearn> GAit: no, EMV basically wiped that out for in person transactions. don’t believe the “EMV is broken” hype, the stats speak for themselves
1201 2014-04-16 13:13:55 <hearn> you can’t walk out of a shop (at least not in most parts of the world now) and simply take back your money.
1202 2014-04-16 13:14:01 eristisk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1203 2014-04-16 13:14:02 <epscy> EMV?
1204 2014-04-16 13:14:07 <vetch> chip and pin.
1205 2014-04-16 13:14:11 <epscy> oh right
1206 2014-04-16 13:14:14 <hearn> even with weak-ass magstripe CCs you couldn’t do that anyway, banks don’t let you reverse arbitrary transactions for a fee
1207 2014-04-16 13:14:22 <GAit> chip and pin has hacks as far as i know
1208 2014-04-16 13:14:26 <hearn> merchants win about 40% of chargeback claims, iirc
1209 2014-04-16 13:14:28 eristisk has joined
1210 2014-04-16 13:14:38 <vetch> speaking from experience there's a ridiculous amount of paperwork needed to chargeback
1211 2014-04-16 13:14:52 <GAit> basically the hack is to use the card as if it was on a flight, disconnected and use signature
1212 2014-04-16 13:15:10 <vetch> it took me a month and four trips to my bank to reverse a clearly bad transaction. I had screenshots of the merchant admitting they never shipped a product.
1213 2014-04-16 13:15:13 <GAit> but tell the server it was PIN, or something like that. It was published by a university researcher i think
1214 2014-04-16 13:15:22 <epscy> i just don't think we should be encouraging acceptance of zero conf txes in the first place, problem solved
1215 2014-04-16 13:15:34 <GAit> epscy: yep agreed
1216 2014-04-16 13:15:43 <vetch> GAit: different difficulty to a hacked up tape recorder to swipe the data from a credit card strip.
1217 2014-04-16 13:15:56 <hearn> GAit: there have been a bunch of clever protocol attacks, but they all have patches available (or were impractical to begin with)
1218 2014-04-16 13:16:10 <GAit> yes. but as long as some country issues signature cards you can still fraud people
1219 2014-04-16 13:16:22 <hearn> epscy: do you actually use bitcoin, though? you’re saying you want to discourage a huge number of actual transactions today
1220 2014-04-16 13:16:36 <epscy> hearn: yeah i do
1221 2014-04-16 13:16:52 <GAit> I use bitcoin and generally unless i trust the person I wait at least one confirm before leaving.
1222 2014-04-16 13:16:59 <hearn> most of the transactions i make, clear instantly because there is no waiting for a transaction
1223 2014-04-16 13:17:16 ConvivialMatt has joined
1224 2014-04-16 13:17:30 <epscy> hearn: i think bitcoin is most suitable for transacting over the internet and it's rare that you can't wait for a confirm
1225 2014-04-16 13:17:35 <hearn> GAit: some merchants reject magstripe-only cards, actually. this is a common problem for americans travelling abroad
1226 2014-04-16 13:17:44 <epscy> for physical in person txes, cash and credit cards work well
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1228 2014-04-16 13:18:15 <GAit> ok i'm just suggesting that as long as CC have holes they will be used and i have no reason to doubt the same about bitcoin
1229 2014-04-16 13:18:23 <hearn> epscy: hardly. i routinely order pizza online with bitcoin. i’d simply not do that if variance meant i might have to wait an hour or two before the pizza place even dispatched the courier.
1230 2014-04-16 13:18:46 <GAit> hearn: by the time the ship the pizza usually there's a confirmation
1231 2014-04-16 13:18:51 <GAit> so is this a good example?
1232 2014-04-16 13:19:04 <epscy> hearn: also they know your address
1233 2014-04-16 13:19:13 <kinlo> it makes some dangerous pizza from time to time
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1238 2014-04-16 13:19:24 <epscy> they can come and knock on your door if the tx doesn't get confirmed
1239 2014-04-16 13:19:30 <GAit> they may still deliver the pizza and put poison in it!
1240 2014-04-16 13:19:31 <hearn> “usually” isn’t good enough. i want to eat ASAP, damnit, and not risk that natural chance means there’s no block for 90 minutes or that one appears after 60 and my tx wasn’t included for some reason
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1242 2014-04-16 13:19:54 <GAit> hearn: if you double spend on them as epscy said they can come to your door with some money recovery guy :)
1243 2014-04-16 13:19:59 <vetch> hearn: sounds like it's time for sub-block chains then.
1244 2014-04-16 13:20:03 <hearn> look at it this way. if i can pay with cash or CC and be assured my pizza will be delivered ASAP, no screwing around, or bitcoin and encounter arbitrary delays, i’ll go with CCs
1245 2014-04-16 13:20:07 <vetch> or a man with a mallet.
1246 2014-04-16 13:20:13 <epscy> but i still think a service on top of bitcoin would be a better solution, but there is basically no difference between such service and a credit card company QED
1247 2014-04-16 13:20:15 <hearn> yesterday i spent bitcoins at a cafe
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1249 2014-04-16 13:20:22 <kinlo> but in pizzaland you have to think differently, those are small amounts, if you miss out on one, it's perfectly manageable...
1250 2014-04-16 13:20:28 <hearn> i quite enjoyed doing that. i would like to keep doing it. that requires instant payment.
1251 2014-04-16 13:20:34 <sipa> i think such use cases will eventually require a payment processor anyway
1252 2014-04-16 13:20:47 sserrano44 has joined
1253 2014-04-16 13:20:52 <sipa> bitcoin cannot give the necessary guarantees, so someone will need to take the risk
1254 2014-04-16 13:21:05 <sipa> bitcoin is just a technology/currency
1255 2014-04-16 13:21:11 <sipa> credit cards are payment systems
1256 2014-04-16 13:21:14 <GAit> hearn:  just because people have been uncareful with btc doesn't mean we should going forward. There are mechanism for instant tx anyway. Initially credit cards were using carbon copy weren't they?
1257 2014-04-16 13:21:36 <kinlo> I still think bitcoin should be seen as a method for storing your own coins, and some overlay network should do day-to-day transactions
1258 2014-04-16 13:21:41 <hearn> they’re hardly uncareful. the system works, today. the bitundo guys want to stop it working.
1259 2014-04-16 13:21:42 <vetch> GAit: yep. the checksum is designed for mechanical computation.
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1261 2014-04-16 13:21:59 <GAit> hearn: is not those guys the problem, is the incentive
1262 2014-04-16 13:22:03 <epscy> hearn: the protocol never guaranteed zero confs would work
1263 2014-04-16 13:22:18 <kinlo> ie, a shop owner would get 1 bitcoin transaction per month from the "credit card company" with their revenue, and each customer would charge their "credit card company" once ever x time in advance
1264 2014-04-16 13:22:19 <hearn> a protocol can’t guarantee anything, obviously, if people don’t follow it
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1266 2014-04-16 13:22:31 <vetch> bitcoin takes that out as an issue.
1267 2014-04-16 13:22:33 <kinlo> so even if you sell 100 beers, only 1 bitcoin transaction should be seen on the bitcoin network
1268 2014-04-16 13:22:34 <epscy> hearn: if we are to rely upon people acting nicely, why do we need the blockchain at all?
1269 2014-04-16 13:22:42 <GAit> hearn: bitcoin works on incetives
1270 2014-04-16 13:22:45 <sipa> the system, as designed, has some best-effort 0-conf security
1271 2014-04-16 13:22:57 <sipa> once people start competing for fees, that cannot remain
1272 2014-04-16 13:22:58 <hearn> and sure, you can just shrug and say, actually kind of sucks as a payment system and in future it’ll hardly be used for that.
1273 2014-04-16 13:23:05 <hearn> but then why would anyone care about a payment system that sucks?
1274 2014-04-16 13:23:08 <sipa> bitcoin simply is not a payment system
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1276 2014-04-16 13:23:31 <epscy> hearn: bitcoin is a great payment system, it's just not a great instant payment system
1277 2014-04-16 13:23:31 <GAit> you can built a payment system on top easily, without any extra primitives
1278 2014-04-16 13:23:33 <hearn> epscy: bitcoin _does_ rely on people acting nicely and the block chain is not a solution to that.
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1280 2014-04-16 13:23:43 <sipa> bitcoin is a value transfer system
1281 2014-04-16 13:23:45 <epscy> bitcoin is like cash with a slight delay basically
1282 2014-04-16 13:23:46 <hearn> epscy: re-read the white paper. it talks about the majority being honest in several places
1283 2014-04-16 13:23:50 <gavinandresen> anybody calculated the increased orphan costs of finney attacks recently?  Did the bitundo people?  If they did not, then miners would be idiots to join their pool.
1284 2014-04-16 13:24:05 <GAit> hearn:  but Finnely is not about majority is it?
1285 2014-04-16 13:24:24 <GAit> gavinandresen: why orphans?
1286 2014-04-16 13:24:33 <GAit> they don't do rewrite as far as I know
1287 2014-04-16 13:24:47 <epscy> hearn: yeah mining centralization concerns me too
1288 2014-04-16 13:24:50 <gavinandresen> …. hmm…. do the bitundo people have a minimum undo amount?  DoS'ing them with tons of small-value transactions to make their orphan rate higher might work....
1289 2014-04-16 13:24:52 <hearn> the bitundo people have a proposition - that bitcoin should work differently than it does. that is, unconfirmed txns should not mean anything. there is nothing in their model that suggests they wish to always be a minority - they want as much mining as possible
1290 2014-04-16 13:24:53 <sipa> finney attacks don't require large blocks, as far as i know?
1291 2014-04-16 13:25:13 <epscy> hearn: difference is waiting for 1 conf almost completely solves the zero conf issue
1292 2014-04-16 13:25:18 <vetch> hearn: I don't think they're saying anything. they're in it to make a profit, not a statement.
1293 2014-04-16 13:25:20 <gavinandresen> sipa:  equivalent-sized block will take longer to verify if the transactions haven't been broadcast
1294 2014-04-16 13:25:26 <GAit> hearn: and gavinandresen this attack is already possibly every day today for marginal cost by any pool operator.
1295 2014-04-16 13:25:29 <epscy> hearn: miner centralization is something i feel i have little control over
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1297 2014-04-16 13:25:34 <hearn> no it doesn’t. if there is a significant amount of mining power that wishes to double spend, they can replace your block with some probability (check the maths at the end of the paper)
1298 2014-04-16 13:25:35 <sipa> gavinandresen: it only requires 1 non-broadcast transactions
1299 2014-04-16 13:25:43 <sipa> gavinandresen: i don't think that effect is below noise level
1300 2014-04-16 13:25:47 <sipa> *above
1301 2014-04-16 13:25:53 <sipa> (but i have no numbers)
1302 2014-04-16 13:26:06 <hearn> vetch: actually the guy is posting on reddit/hacker news that his site makes bitcoin better/that it makes double spending “legitimate” and other nonsense
1303 2014-04-16 13:26:09 <hearn> vetch: so they are saying that
1304 2014-04-16 13:26:16 <epscy> hearn: if that starts happening then that would damage bitcoin significantly
1305 2014-04-16 13:26:22 <GAit> hearn: isn't that the same argument of Peter Todd ?
1306 2014-04-16 13:26:35 <gavinandresen> sipa:  … right, but one transaction with thousands of (tiny-value) inputs will still be thousands of time longer to verify than a block with normal, already-broadcast-and-signatures-checked transactions
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1308 2014-04-16 13:26:58 <vetch> hearn: he acted like that on IRC too, but it still comes across as defending something intended to be used maliciously.
1309 2014-04-16 13:26:59 <GAit> gavinandresen: couldn't they ignore some tx?
1310 2014-04-16 13:27:06 <hearn> epscy: double spending damages bitcoin. doesn’t matter much if it’s unconfirmed, one confirm, two confirms, etc. there’s nothing special about that.
1311 2014-04-16 13:27:09 <vetch> hearn: wink wink not for criminals.
1312 2014-04-16 13:27:14 <sipa> i'd say it will just change bitcoin, and i'm in favor of keeping the old way as long as possible (as it has better usability in the short term), but i think it's inevitable that at some point competition for fees will drive this away
1313 2014-04-16 13:27:17 <epscy> hearn: i'm not saying it can't happen, but a lot of the theory behind bitcoin is predicated on people behaving rationally, and intentionally and repeatedly overwriting blocks to undo transactions would lower the value of bitcoin overall
1314 2014-04-16 13:27:17 <gavinandresen> … which is why I'm pondering the effect of flooding the bitundo people with a bunch of tiny spends-to-self.
1315 2014-04-16 13:27:36 <hearn> epscy: so does leaving behind the first-seen rule! they don’t care about lowering the value of bitcoin, clearly
1316 2014-04-16 13:27:36 <GAit> is publishing wireshark maliscious? is publishing a memory scanner for private keys maliscious? is it the tool or how it is used?
1317 2014-04-16 13:28:01 <vetch> GAit: there's a difference been a tool that can be used for malice and one who designed for it.
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1319 2014-04-16 13:28:11 <hearn> the former is not malicious because packet dumpers have lots of legitimate uses (i’ve used wireshark for debugging loads of times). writing malware that steals private keys clearly is.
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1321 2014-04-16 13:28:35 <epscy> hearn: the first seen rule can't be enforced by consensus, confirmation of a tx can though
1322 2014-04-16 13:28:37 <hearn> gavinandresen: i think we should just wait and see if real merchants start complaining about being finney attacked. the bitpay guys will notice if this is happening
1323 2014-04-16 13:28:38 <GAit> if it doesn't steal them is it ok? just shows how vulnerable you are. But then someone else can take it and make it a virus
1324 2014-04-16 13:28:41 <sipa> double spending also has legitimate use cases (sending with more fee, for example)
1325 2014-04-16 13:28:56 <GAit> sipa: or in case i've been robbed
1326 2014-04-16 13:28:59 <vetch> sipa: that's taken care of by child pays for parent.
1327 2014-04-16 13:29:16 <sipa> it would, yes
1328 2014-04-16 13:29:29 <hearn> epscy: no. gah. this is the mental block we seem to have
1329 2014-04-16 13:29:38 <hearn> the block chain quantises the consensus
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1331 2014-04-16 13:29:53 <hearn> if there are miners who are trying to interfere with that consensus by running different rules, they can interfere with the block chain too
1332 2014-04-16 13:29:56 <hno> ok. I don't see bitundo as a real threat. Only awareness riser. Accepting 0-confurmation transactions for any serious amount without knowing the customer is asking for being fooled. And very unlikely they will succeed in forking the chain to undo even 1 confirmation transactions at a rate that makes it useful.
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1334 2014-04-16 13:30:18 <vetch> hno: they aren't trying to fork at all. they're only touching unconfirmed transactions.
1335 2014-04-16 13:30:28 <hearn> remember that you can still fork the chain even with much less than 50% of the hash power. it’s probabilistic.
1336 2014-04-16 13:30:31 <hearn> just like finney attacks are
1337 2014-04-16 13:30:40 <hno> vetch, I understand, but reading back the log here there is talk about forking..
1338 2014-04-16 13:31:24 <hno> unconfirmed transactions are what they are called. A notification about intent, not really a transfe.r
1339 2014-04-16 13:31:32 <vetch> hno: oh yeah, if the service is paid more than the block reward it becomes profitable to attempt a fork
1340 2014-04-16 13:31:34 <epscy> hearn: ultimately i believe to do that would be self defeating and counter productive, but i guess we aren't going to agree
1341 2014-04-16 13:32:46 <hearn> the area where we disagree is that you see unconfirmed and confirmed txns as somehow very different, and i don’t. we both agree that miners double spending is self defeating and counterproductive :)
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1343 2014-04-16 13:33:41 <epscy> i get what you are saying about honest miners required to make consensus work
1344 2014-04-16 13:33:42 <hno> vetch, you need quite significant hashing power to do that today as you need to successfully mine n+1 blocks ahead of the rest of the network. Anyone having that amount of hashing power at their hands are very unlikely to want to touch this business as it risks the viability of bitoin.
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1346 2014-04-16 13:34:20 <epscy> however i think it is unrealistic to assume anything other than miners will mine txes with the highest fees
1347 2014-04-16 13:34:42 <vetch> hno: while true, as the block reward drops it becomes more likely
1348 2014-04-16 13:34:47 <GAit> this can be a huge pain in the ass not only for bitpay but potentially for satoshidice too
1349 2014-04-16 13:35:03 <vetch> satoshidice require confirmations now
1350 2014-04-16 13:35:12 <epscy> if we did enter a situation where were regularly seeing 1 or 2 block chain reorgs, that would just make people wait for more confirms
1351 2014-04-16 13:35:14 <GAit> oh, sorry, i wasn't up to date on that
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1355 2014-04-16 13:35:29 <vetch> yeah, because people kept attacking them :P
1356 2014-04-16 13:35:52 <epscy> but would lower the value of bitcoin in the interim
1357 2014-04-16 13:36:02 <vetch> hno: the interesting thing is that it was against ghash.io's best interest to attack betting sites, but they did anyway.
1358 2014-04-16 13:36:13 <GAit> vetch: i thought they could have used the same as bitpay, just listen on the network for long enough and accept specific standard tx with fee and good prevout
1359 2014-04-16 13:36:26 <GAit> oh i see
1360 2014-04-16 13:36:31 <GAit> so it was a pool that attacked them
1361 2014-04-16 13:37:02 <hearn> lol. satoshidice has a eula these days too!
1362 2014-04-16 13:37:04 <vetch> GAit: that's trivial to get around. push TX1 to pools, push TX2 to the majority simultaneously. you might lose a portion of the time, but attempts are free.
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1364 2014-04-16 13:37:23 <vetch> it's just a classic race.
1365 2014-04-16 13:37:27 <hearn> vetch: yeah but the seller can detect that
1366 2014-04-16 13:37:40 <GAit> yeah if it listens on enough parts of the network it can
1367 2014-04-16 13:37:52 <vetch> not if the attacker times it right
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1370 2014-04-16 13:38:17 <GAit> vetch: i used bitpay a few days ago for quite a bit, less than 30 secs and it said all good to go
1371 2014-04-16 13:38:23 <hearn> that’s hard and anyway, there’s a desire to add double spend alerts to the p2p protocol
1372 2014-04-16 13:38:30 <vetch> timing it so the supermajority get and process the TX exactly as the pool processes it work
1373 2014-04-16 13:38:32 posita has joined
1374 2014-04-16 13:38:47 <vetch> I obviously haven't attempted it, but there's no reason it wouldn't work
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1382 2014-04-16 13:59:16 <helo> if only there was some mechanism to deal with deciding definitively which tx will become permanent
1383 2014-04-16 14:01:39 <hearn> ask a bank :)
1384 2014-04-16 14:02:33 <hearn> it may be that ultimately proof of work, doesn't
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1387 2014-04-16 14:03:38 <GAit> even if there was such a bank the rest of the world may decide that what you transacted has no more value.
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1389 2014-04-16 14:04:34 <hearn> yes, money is ultimately a social construct, not a natural one. so a strong enough consensus can always change the rules whilst the game is in progress. which is as it should be. doesn’t mean we have to like the new rules, of course.
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1391 2014-04-16 14:05:29 <vetch> ultimately the "problem" that the bit undo site has fabricated is one of usability.
1392 2014-04-16 14:05:51 <GAit> vetch: the problem was always there, it was limited to pools operators and now it is exposed to people
1393 2014-04-16 14:05:53 <vetch> as maxwell stipulated before, all you need is a delay in the clients broadcast of a transaction and a soft "undo" button.
1394 2014-04-16 14:06:08 <GAit> a bit like the bitcoin code was available to people to make clones from day one but coingen and other services made it trivial
1395 2014-04-16 14:06:32 <vetch> I'm speaking more of the stated use case more than the technology behind it
1396 2014-04-16 14:07:12 <GAit> oh yes, got it. We're working on that feature actually
1397 2014-04-16 14:07:33 <GAit> have you seen bitundo? :) just kidding, i'm talking about soft undo and delay
1398 2014-04-16 14:08:05 <vetch> gmail has that function in their lab. it's very useful.
1399 2014-04-16 14:08:13 <GAit> i use it 10 times a day
1400 2014-04-16 14:08:16 <GAit> in gmail
1401 2014-04-16 14:08:16 <vetch> it's perfect for the "crap I forgot to mention X" moments.
1402 2014-04-16 14:08:36 <GAit> or crap i didn't remove that guy from the forward
1403 2014-04-16 14:08:45 <GAit> or reply all
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1405 2014-04-16 14:08:58 <vetch> I don't have that problem, but I can imagine
1406 2014-04-16 14:09:29 <hearn> it’s a lot easier to screw up an email than a payment, though
1407 2014-04-16 14:09:38 <GAit> well i mostly use it for the same use case as you vetch, but that happened too
1408 2014-04-16 14:09:40 <hearn> but yes obviously wallets can just delay payments. actually my e-banking does that by default
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1410 2014-04-16 14:09:53 <hearn> if you want it to go through on the same day, you have to tick a box asking for that
1411 2014-04-16 14:10:00 <vetch> as does mine.
1412 2014-04-16 14:10:11 <GAit> my bank doesn't
1413 2014-04-16 14:10:40 <GAit> my bank also apparently likes to work with mexican cartels
1414 2014-04-16 14:10:59 <vetch> that's handy, might get you a bulk discount
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1416 2014-04-16 14:11:16 <GAit> no, i'm too small for them, they only deal with big people with big accounts
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1418 2014-04-16 14:11:31 <GAit> i mean discounts wise
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1422 2014-04-16 14:12:39 <JyZyXEL> ä
1423 2014-04-16 14:12:40 <GAit> anyhow, if the service markets itself as a generic tool (not for illegal activity) and it can't know about illegal activity, aren't user going to want it in their wallets? its a competitive advantage
1424 2014-04-16 14:12:57 <GAit> talking about bitundo again
1425 2014-04-16 14:13:15 <GAit> last resort option
1426 2014-04-16 14:13:24 <JyZyXEL> does the undo button exist already?
1427 2014-04-16 14:13:46 <GAit> as far as i know not in any wallet but the bitundo offers it
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1430 2014-04-16 14:14:30 <hearn> i don’t think a button that mostly does not work is good user interface design, regardless of how it operates under the hood
1431 2014-04-16 14:14:36 <GAit> a few people have tried it, i don't think it has the hash rate but that's just yet and with big numbers even if it works sometimes i can see it being used
1432 2014-04-16 14:14:40 <hearn> you don’t want to be accused of making defective software
1433 2014-04-16 14:14:45 <GAit> true
1434 2014-04-16 14:15:09 <vetch> if it doesn't work right when people expect it to, it'll be decreed useless and ignored
1435 2014-04-16 14:15:27 <GAit> but then tx are not instant sometimes to appear on the other side of the counterparty wallet and sometimes wallets don't support P2SH and our wallet looks like it's defective but there's not much we can do about these
1436 2014-04-16 14:15:58 <vetch> just bullshit then
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1438 2014-04-16 14:16:10 <vetch> "preparing transaction" and a pretty spinner with a cancel button
1439 2014-04-16 14:16:15 <buZz> anyone here tried https://darkwallet.unsystem.net/ ?
1440 2014-04-16 14:16:40 <GAit> vetch: the point is that as soon as a wallet implements it if people move to that wallet in any considerable number other wallets will implement it too
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1443 2014-04-16 14:16:48 <vetch> GAit: I read a study where they found that people perceived online banks to be more secure the slower their pages loaded
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1445 2014-04-16 14:16:57 <vetch> could work in the wallet's favour.
1446 2014-04-16 14:16:58 <Luke-Jr> lol
1447 2014-04-16 14:16:59 <GAit> because if it is makret properly as just an 'attempt' it will be considered a valueable tool
1448 2014-04-16 14:17:16 <GAit> vetch: :D
1449 2014-04-16 14:17:35 <Luke-Jr> GAit: if anything is added to the wallet, it should use the standard method, not bitundo's centralised mess
1450 2014-04-16 14:18:02 <GAit> Luke-Jr: I agree but by standard method you mean pay by child?
1451 2014-04-16 14:18:15 <Luke-Jr> GAit: no, if you want to cancel a transaction you need to double spend
1452 2014-04-16 14:18:25 <Luke-Jr> there's nothing stopping you from putting a higher fee on that double spend
1453 2014-04-16 14:18:30 <Luke-Jr> and nothing stopping miners from preferring it
1454 2014-04-16 14:19:00 <GAit> true, this service just centralizes this service
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1456 2014-04-16 14:19:43 <GAit> but this service offers one more thing: do not distribute the TX, is there any legitimate use for that?
1457 2014-04-16 14:19:49 <Luke-Jr> GAit: no
1458 2014-04-16 14:19:52 <vetch> nope
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1460 2014-04-16 14:19:59 <vetch> wink wink it's for privacy
1461 2014-04-16 14:20:03 <Luke-Jr> that's essentially "I'm trying to rip someone off"
1462 2014-04-16 14:20:10 <GAit> what if you are in a dangerous situation
1463 2014-04-16 14:20:19 <vetch> Luke-Jr: stops their mining pool from allowing GBT too :(
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1467 2014-04-16 14:21:01 <Luke-Jr> GAit: if you're in a dangerous situation, you don't want to risk a miner mining the double-spend and getting you killed
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1470 2014-04-16 14:22:27 <Luke-Jr> if you've left the dangerous situation, then broadcasting the double-spend is safe
1471 2014-04-16 14:22:34 <GAit> i can see that, i was thinking out loud. My view remains that if it possible to do we should be cater/assume for it. Luke-Jr, with your pool you couldn't hide a double spend attack correct?
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1473 2014-04-16 14:22:53 <Luke-Jr> GAit: correct; or at least it wouldn't be easy
1474 2014-04-16 14:22:59 <GAit> miners in the pool would see it at the very least
1475 2014-04-16 14:23:18 <GAit> even if you don't pass it around in mempool
1476 2014-04-16 14:23:24 <Luke-Jr> I can think of a way to possibly do it, but I'd rather not disclose it
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1479 2014-04-16 14:23:46 <GAit> well, maybe yes you should not disclose it but if it's possible then more so reason to handle it as centralization corrupts
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1481 2014-04-16 14:24:51 <GAit> someone else will have your same idea sooner or later
1482 2014-04-16 14:25:33 <GAit> security by obscurity thing
1483 2014-04-16 14:26:27 <GAit> Luke-Jr: kudos to you if you don't take advantage of it and disclose it in a responsable manner
1484 2014-04-16 14:27:41 <Luke-Jr> GAit: hopefully before these problems hit in a significant way, we'll have decentralised mining everywhere… hopefully
1485 2014-04-16 14:27:50 <GAit> p2pool ?
1486 2014-04-16 14:28:17 <Luke-Jr> ideally not just any one pool..
1487 2014-04-16 14:28:32 <vetch> GAit: I'm sure there's lots of nasty bugs not being disclosed for the sake of the network
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1489 2014-04-16 14:28:57 <GAit> yeah that's scary.
1490 2014-04-16 14:29:28 <vetch> I was surprised the bloom filter bug was actually made mention of so early
1491 2014-04-16 14:30:21 <vetch> as far as I can tell a reasonably portion of network is still vulnerable to that
1492 2014-04-16 14:30:38 <vetch> wait, no, that's just bitnodes.io having stupid colours
1493 2014-04-16 14:31:06 <vetch> ~12%
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1496 2014-04-16 14:32:26 <vetch> they seriously need to fix their graphs. impossible to read any information when the key is all almost completely identical colours.
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1525 2014-04-16 15:00:06 <llowrey> Guys - hope you're all having a good day. - Where do I go if I have a bitcoin website idea that may be quite revolutionary, but don't have technical skills to implement it... ?
1526 2014-04-16 15:00:43 <vetch> llowrey: #bitcoin is your best bet. this channel is for discussions about the core client.
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1529 2014-04-16 15:02:44 <llowrey> thanks
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1538 2014-04-16 15:08:29 <Ry4an> http://whartoniteseekscodemonkey.tumblr.com/ ;)
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1555 2014-04-16 15:23:25 <GAit> i was reading an article on lwn about silent port knocking, do you think it could help at all reducing bitcoin network ddos or would silent port knocking be expensive enough to be even more ddos prone? article: http://lwn.net/Articles/577164/
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1559 2014-04-16 15:26:47 <vetch> how would that help?
1560 2014-04-16 15:26:53 <chichov> is https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/key.h#L130 correct? It appears that only the pubkey and not its serialization is hashed
1561 2014-04-16 15:27:16 <vetch> GAit: port knocking generally requires root permissions, which is undesirable. usually the daemons use pcap to capture the knocks.
1562 2014-04-16 15:28:06 <GAit> yeah the article did mention this can be more easily integrated on the hurd
1563 2014-04-16 15:28:20 <vetch> not sure what it would achieve anyway
1564 2014-04-16 15:28:29 <edcba> hurd ?
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1566 2014-04-16 15:28:41 <vetch> no, port knocking
1567 2014-04-16 15:28:45 <edcba> ok
1568 2014-04-16 15:29:01 <vetch> port knocking is a shared secret thing, which you can't have in an unauthenticated network
1569 2014-04-16 15:29:16 <Ry4an> the knock implentation in that article doesn't (it's in-kernel and triggered by a user-space flag), but it still feels like a gimmick.  It also requires a pre-shared secret and a linux kernel for interop.
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1574 2014-04-16 15:30:12 <GAit> vetch: the shared secret could be information about the blockchain and this may help prioritizing strong nodes over new nodes sinchronizing when network load is high
1575 2014-04-16 15:30:59 <GAit> of course it may have lots of issues too, i just found it somewhat interesting and started considering if it has any other application
1576 2014-04-16 15:31:22 <vetch> it's really good for locking you out of your server when the daemon crashes < learnt that one the hard way
1577 2014-04-16 15:32:05 <GAit> er, i meant between bitcoin nodes not for accessing your server
1578 2014-04-16 15:32:15 <vetch> I'm aware.
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1634 2014-04-16 16:07:50 <petertodd> GAit, vetch: I'm not at all surprised that it wasn't popular because it was so long and not a meme. :)
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1636 2014-04-16 16:08:27 <GAit> petertodd: did you post the same exact phrase on reddit? i swear i just had a dejavuu
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1638 2014-04-16 16:12:05 <petertodd> GAit: lol, what phrase exactly?
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1641 2014-04-16 16:14:00 <GAit> petertodd: wasn't reddit actually, was here
1642 2014-04-16 16:14:03 <GAit> [11:56] <vetch> GAit: it's too long. needs to be put into a meme for Reddit users to upvote it.
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1644 2014-04-16 16:14:26 <petertodd> GAit: ah, yeah, I was delibrately echoing vetch's comment :)
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1654 2014-04-16 16:19:00 <petertodd> GAit, Luke-Jr: oh, and actually Luke-Jr suggested a fairly simple way of doing replace-by-fee child-pays-for-parent, so I should make the next step to implement CPFP replacement and then do up a replace-by-fee scorched earth demo - much more likely to get the reddit masses attention if the claim is "One weird trick to make unconfirmed transactions safe"
1655 2014-04-16 16:20:45 <GAit> petertodd: where has he suggested it? is there a link?
1656 2014-04-16 16:21:52 <vetch> petertodd: ugh. trying to make an image macro that fits the sentence. how do people ever enjoy these things?
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1658 2014-04-16 16:22:28 <petertodd> GAit: it's on #bitcoin-wizards somewhere; basically he just pointed out that I can easily make a second, "shadow", mempool for the replaced transactions and keep them around until some timeout. When a transaction comes in that is orphaned, also check it against the shadow mempool to see if it's parents should be resurrected.
1659 2014-04-16 16:23:03 <petertodd> I didn't implement that because I wanted a response to BitUndo's centralized service ASAP - trying to profit off this stuff is kinda silly.
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1661 2014-04-16 16:23:41 <vetch> I'm sure you can fit all of that into an image macro somehow.
1662 2014-04-16 16:23:59 <petertodd> vetch: lol, "One does not simply replace-by-fee double-spend..." something something scorched earth?
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1667 2014-04-16 16:25:39 <GAit> until other pools implemnt replace by fee bitundo has a competitive advantage and its worst cause it offers nonbroadcasested double spend attempts
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1669 2014-04-16 16:26:21 <vetch> petertodd: everything I type over an image instantly becomes stupid.
1670 2014-04-16 16:26:22 <petertodd> GAit: Also, bitundo can make their public undo's - which pay themselves - more likely to get mined by bumping up the transaction fees a bit.
1671 2014-04-16 16:26:41 <petertodd> vetch: same problem here :)
1672 2014-04-16 16:27:39 <vetch> petertodd: maybe a description of fee replacement just isn't suitable for two lines of text overlaid over a common image.
1673 2014-04-16 16:28:45 <petertodd> vetch: I suspect focusing on the economic irrationality of not doing fee replacment - e.g. in the face of a 1BTC fee - makes sense.
1674 2014-04-16 16:28:57 <GAit> petertodd: child pays for fee, is that something you see handle commonly in wallets or something that payment processors will deal with
1675 2014-04-16 16:29:52 <petertodd> GAit: re: scorched earth? probably both, although the online requirement makes it easiest for payment processors to do
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1781 2014-04-16 18:00:06 <petertodd> interesting: someone is doing tx replacement to bump fees: https://blockchain.info/tx/6139952fef41e8bbc2b771c801149da440447f26ca0f683978c2bb2c98d00f38 vs. https://blockchain.info/tx/bcf372b36e8e437aae798d15ce35706b567d923e82307f78052d2aba1b01ee05
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1783 2014-04-16 18:01:18 <Happzz> "to bump fees"?
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1785 2014-04-16 18:02:05 <petertodd> Happzz: yeah, the replacement pays 5mBTC in fees while the original paid nothing
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1787 2014-04-16 18:02:52 <Happzz> and it confirmed
1788 2014-04-16 18:03:01 <Happzz> smart move. saved the money.
1789 2014-04-16 18:03:02 <petertodd> yes actually, the replacement did
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1791 2014-04-16 18:03:22 <Happzz> i should learn how to do that
1792 2014-04-16 18:03:26 <Apocalyptic> petertodd, you will notice the outputs are almost identical
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1794 2014-04-16 18:03:59 <petertodd> interestingly since not all miners/nodes have the same fee structure the replace-by-fee nodes make it easy to get your new higher fee txs to miners - that old tx had been sitting around for a few hours
1795 2014-04-16 18:04:26 <petertodd> Apocalyptic: exactly - it's probably not trying to rip off anyone, it only just reduced the amount of change
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1797 2014-04-16 18:06:09 <jouke> probably mined by a miner that doesn't accept feeless transactions in mempool?
1798 2014-04-16 18:06:31 <petertodd> jouke: quite possibly
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1801 2014-04-16 18:07:58 <GAit> petertodd: does it mean that miner will happily do a Finnely attack for you as it can't know you double spent with a 0 fee tx not entering mempool?
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1804 2014-04-16 18:08:36 <petertodd> GAit: in a sense, yes, that's part of why zero-conf txs are so unsafe - applies equally well to *any* change in what txs a miner accepts to their mempool
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1807 2014-04-16 18:09:06 <GAit> petertodd: yeah as long as you can find some conflicting tx you can improve a lot your chances
1808 2014-04-16 18:09:15 <GAit> conflicting in terms of miners mempool
1809 2014-04-16 18:09:33 <petertodd> for instance eligius blocks txs paying the correst-horse address, as well as betting sites, as spam, which means you can easily double-spend by paying someone with a tx paying any of those addresses, then respending with a tx that doesn't
1810 2014-04-16 18:10:21 <GAit> petertodd: these betting guys could easily use newly generated addresses to avoid the spam filter
1811 2014-04-16 18:10:36 <GAit> but yeah, i can see how you could double spend against them because of spam filters
1812 2014-04-16 18:10:45 <petertodd> GAit: indeed they could - one of the reasons why address reuse is dumb
1813 2014-04-16 18:11:11 <GAit> petertodd: agreed
1814 2014-04-16 18:11:23 <archrs> affirmative
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1850 2014-04-16 18:43:20 <Luke-Jr> [16:17:06] <petertodd> GAit, Luke-Jr: oh, and actually Luke-Jr suggested a fairly simple way of doing replace-by-fee child-pays-for-parent, so I should make the next step to implement CPFP replacement and then do up a replace-by-fee scorched earth demo - much more likely to get the reddit masses attention if the claim is "One weird trick to make unconfirmed transactions safe" <-- ?
1851 2014-04-16 18:43:35 <Luke-Jr> oh that
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1853 2014-04-16 18:44:52 <petertodd> yup
1854 2014-04-16 18:45:28 <vetch> it's unfortunate that you have to do that to your ideas.
1855 2014-04-16 18:45:40 <Luke-Jr> ?
1856 2014-04-16 18:45:44 <vetch> great idea, but will reddit's attention span hold for long enough?
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1859 2014-04-16 18:46:22 <petertodd> well, that's just step #1 - anyway pr is always important
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1865 2014-04-16 18:50:24 <gavinandresen> Bah, it has been a pull-on-a-thread-unravel-the-whole-sweater kind of day….
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1869 2014-04-16 18:52:00 <gavinandresen> sipa wumpus: I want to implement a 'getarg' RPC call, to return a command-line argument.  But that doesn't play well with our GetArg("foo", default_value) convention. Which I know sipa hates, anyway...
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1906 2014-04-16 19:34:58 <wumpus> gavinandresen: I don't like it either; I'd prefer to do argument parsing at one point at the beginning, and do the assigning of defaults there, instead of distributing it all over the place with GetArg()  
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1909 2014-04-16 19:35:33 <wumpus> gavinandresen: that'd also allow better error reporting: report non-existent options, extraneous data, invalid values
1910 2014-04-16 19:35:33 <gmaxwell> I tried to remove the defaults peppered throught the code at one point, but we actually change the defaults based on other options... in some reasonably useful ways.
1911 2014-04-16 19:35:35 <Luke-Jr> I thought we did now, with SoftSetArg?
1912 2014-04-16 19:35:53 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes, it's used usefully
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1914 2014-04-16 19:36:29 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: that's only used in a few places (for example by the GUI), not for general defaults
1915 2014-04-16 19:36:42 <Luke-Jr> :/
1916 2014-04-16 19:37:10 <wumpus> also for the reason that gmaxwell says, many defaults are not constants but depend on other settings
1917 2014-04-16 19:38:00 <wumpus> then again, we could enforce that all arguments should be set with SoftSetArg at least once, and remove the 'default' arguments from Get*Arg (in favor of failing)
1918 2014-04-16 19:38:29 <wumpus> that would allow implementing a getarg RPC
1919 2014-04-16 19:38:44 <Luke-Jr> could we make the opts a variant such that the default could be a function pointer? :P
1920 2014-04-16 19:39:05 <gmaxwell> die
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1922 2014-04-16 19:39:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ☹
1923 2014-04-16 19:39:45 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: that should not be needed, defaults can be evaluated at some earlier time during initialization
1924 2014-04-16 19:40:03 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I'm not a fan of 'lazy evaluation on the fly' of command line arguments at all
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1926 2014-04-16 19:40:37 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: (but you were probably trolling anyway :p)
1927 2014-04-16 19:40:59 <Luke-Jr> I can think of cases it'd be useful, but I'm not sure any apply to Bitcoin Core
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1936 2014-04-16 19:42:15 <wumpus> well if you want to allow changing arguments at runtime, and some arguments affect the default setting of other arguments, you'd have to build a dependency graph at some point and evaluate it when an argument changes :-)
1937 2014-04-16 19:42:36 <wumpus> </troll>
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1952 2014-04-16 19:50:25 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: turing complete argument parser!
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1960 2014-04-16 19:59:22 <warren> wumpus: when is the last time you pulled translations into core?
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1978 2014-04-16 20:27:57 <wumpus> warren: a month ago; probably time to do it again
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1982 2014-04-16 20:28:42 <warren> wumpus: do the source strings match?
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1984 2014-04-16 20:29:00 <warren> wumpus: how do you regenerate source strings in this tree?
1985 2014-04-16 20:29:30 <warren> wumpus: should we commit the .tx directory?  it's optional but helpful
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1988 2014-04-16 20:30:52 <wumpus> warren: cd src/qt && make translate
1989 2014-04-16 20:31:43 <wumpus> warren: i suppose it wouldn't hurt; I always assumed the files in .tx contained personal info, but there's only a config file with project-wide information
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1991 2014-04-16 20:34:47 <warren> wumpus: would be good for the nightly build to contain latest translations before a larger call for traslators
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1993 2014-04-16 20:36:34 <wumpus> agreed; I'll try to do it tomorrow, I've delayed the translation-related updates for some time due to uncertainty related to the releases
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2042 2014-04-16 21:45:07 <maaku> did Kevin (mailing list) just request auto-update for bitcoin core?
2043 2014-04-16 21:45:27 youbetcha has joined
2044 2014-04-16 21:45:47 <petertodd> maaku: you should reply pointing out that a decentralized system isn't so decentralized with an auto-update mechanism...
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2055 2014-04-16 21:49:17 <gmaxwell> I think it's useful to distinguish auto-update from improved-update tools. The latter I think we should have... e.g. stuff that goes and downloads the update and verifies it. ... because users don't.
2056 2014-04-16 21:49:48 <gmaxwell> but what I actually think he was suggesting was that we take up the maintance work of maintaining Windows XP. ;P
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2060 2014-04-16 21:51:20 <youbetcha> Greetings.   I have an idea for a web based voting app.  To vote for a choice, you send a small amount of bitcoin to an address.   Then the website watches the blockchain updates in order to count votes...  Before I hurt myself, I figured I would ask the group about the best way to monitor transactions to an address from python...   Anyone have any high level pointers?
2061 2014-04-16 21:51:21 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2062 2014-04-16 21:51:23 <gmaxwell> wumpus: probably the thing to do for windows XP is that the wallet should not create a wallet when it doesn't have one at started (multiwallet would likely have that as an effect).. instead you should tell it to create a wallet, and if it tell it you're not creating a HSM-wallet (e.g. trezor) and it detects you're on an insecure system it should whine.  At least thats my opinion.
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2065 2014-04-16 21:53:13 <gmaxwell> youbetcha: thats a really bad idea, bitcoin is not a jam free communications channel, miners can freely pick the outcome of your vote; not to mention the lack of privacy and the fact that people can just buy out the vote, which is usually not what you want.  People have done what you're describing in the past just as an attempted scam to get people to send them coins... meh.   Onto the technical part of your question, the bitcoin system ...
2066 2014-04-16 21:53:19 <gmaxwell> ... doesn't have balances at all. Balances are a fiction created by wallets. Presumably such an app would talk to a wallet.
2067 2014-04-16 21:54:02 dims has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2068 2014-04-16 21:54:40 <maaku> youbetcha: not to mention you don't actually have to move coin. just sign a vote message using the key holding the coins and submit to the server
2069 2014-04-16 21:55:19 <warren> wumpus: https://blog.goeswhere.com/2010/12/git-set-commit-id/  perhaps those short hashes aren't so good
2070 2014-04-16 21:55:37 <youbetcha> well..  my app is "kinda like voting", but has nothing to do with voting. :/   I just want a way to monitor lots of address for deposits.     Is there a python interface for grep'ing the block chain by date?
2071 2014-04-16 21:56:11 <gmaxwell> Where are you getting the addresses from?
2072 2014-04-16 21:56:20 <youbetcha> Im constructing the addresses.
2073 2014-04-16 21:56:36 <gmaxwell> How many is lots?
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2075 2014-04-16 21:56:50 <youbetcha> hmm....   16*2 per week.
2076 2014-04-16 21:57:18 <gmaxwell> in any case, what you probably want is some kind of watching wallet functionality, but none is easily available that I'm aware of.
2077 2014-04-16 21:57:26 sipa has joined
2078 2014-04-16 21:58:10 <youbetcha> Ok.. Thats basically my question...  A wallet watching function..    Ok.
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2086 2014-04-16 22:06:26 <dfletcher> youbetcha, bitcoind and the -qt client can both be started up with -waletnotify and -blocknotify options (there are corresponding .conf options as well). here you put a program to run when transactions that concern your wallet come in. so just use the same bitcoind or bitcoin-qt that will call your script to generate the addresses. wallet scripts get called with the txid, which you can then use the JSON RPC API to look up the details.
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2089 2014-04-16 22:07:13 * dfletcher used it for making his desktop play a CHA-CHING! sound and also as the basis of an ecommerce solution =)
2090 2014-04-16 22:07:49 <youbetcha> dfletcher:   Great!   Thank you for the pointers.  Thats basically what I am looking for.
2091 2014-04-16 22:08:15 Benjamin_ has joined
2092 2014-04-16 22:08:22 <dfletcher> youbetcha, no prob! you know about testnet right?
2093 2014-04-16 22:08:25 <dfletcher> use it :)
2094 2014-04-16 22:08:52 <youbetcha> I dont.  testnet?
2095 2014-04-16 22:09:15 <dfletcher> yes you can start the client in a test mode. there's a separate blockchain and you get coins for it free from http://faucet.xeno-genesis.com/
2096 2014-04-16 22:09:17 <youbetcha> I see testnet now.. makes sense
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2098 2014-04-16 22:10:55 <vetch> youbetcha: be warning that although there are numerous testnet3 block explorers, some are not up to date
2099 2014-04-16 22:11:04 <vetch> be warned, rather.
2100 2014-04-16 22:11:05 Hans-Martin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2101 2014-04-16 22:11:57 <vetch> you'll be scratching your head for a while otherwise.
2102 2014-04-16 22:12:06 <youbetcha> Thank you everyone for the directions.  I really appreciate pointing my head in a generally correct direction. :)
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2107 2014-04-16 22:17:49 <real-or-random> Hi guys... It would be great to hear your feedback on our proposal "CoinShuffle": https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=567625.0 :)
2108 2014-04-16 22:17:49 <real-or-random> CoinShuffle is a protocol for decentralized mixing, i.e., without a server that learns
2109 2014-04-16 22:17:49 <real-or-random> which coins belong to which users. It provides some robustness against DoS by malicious participants, too.
2110 2014-04-16 22:18:05 <vetch> ping gmaxwell.
2111 2014-04-16 22:18:28 <gmaxwell> real-or-random: it's in my reading queue!
2112 2014-04-16 22:18:59 <real-or-random> thanks for letting me know :) don't want to bug you
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2116 2014-04-16 22:24:46 hanti is now known as HANTI
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2119 2014-04-16 22:25:46 <hno> anyone here who uses protocoin? Looks very promising for prototyping bitcoin clients.
2120 2014-04-16 22:27:05 <gmaxwell> never heard of it. it looks like it implements a lot less than the pynode, more like the original 'half client'.
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2123 2014-04-16 22:30:42 <hno> it tries to be a framework, not a full client. Main focus is to parse/produce messages, not the client as such.
2124 2014-04-16 22:31:45 <splitting> hello
2125 2014-04-16 22:31:53 <splitting> anyone here work with the rpc api?
2126 2014-04-16 22:32:03 <splitting> im having a confusing issue
2127 2014-04-16 22:32:07 <hno> splitting, tries to...
2128 2014-04-16 22:32:20 <splitting> im able to query the dogecoin server daemon with my code just fine
2129 2014-04-16 22:32:24 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2130 2014-04-16 22:32:38 <hno> and?
2131 2014-04-16 22:32:38 <splitting> let me paste it
2132 2014-04-16 22:32:45 <splitting> bitcoin doesnt return anything
2133 2014-04-16 22:32:46 roidster has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2134 2014-04-16 22:33:00 <splitting> my code is on a loop that runs each coiin daemon and queries it
2135 2014-04-16 22:33:01 zzyzx is now known as roidster
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2137 2014-04-16 22:33:30 roidster is now known as Guest95887
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2140 2014-04-16 22:34:44 <splitting> http://pastie.org/private/zoycssc4jwpng6febnpkq hno
2141 2014-04-16 22:34:56 <hno> splitting, what do your rpc message sent to bitcoind look like?
2142 2014-04-16 22:34:57 <splitting> code works fine for dogecoin but not for the bitcoin daemon
2143 2014-04-16 22:35:05 <splitting> getbalance
2144 2014-04-16 22:35:08 _flow_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2146 2014-04-16 22:35:53 <splitting> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC)#Python
2147 2014-04-16 22:35:54 <splitting> using this
2148 2014-04-16 22:36:11 <splitting> im just confused as to why it works fine with the dogecoin daemon but not with the bitcoin one
2149 2014-04-16 22:36:23 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2151 2014-04-16 22:37:56 <hno> splitting, works for me.
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2153 2014-04-16 22:38:07 <splitting> hmmm
2154 2014-04-16 22:38:16 <splitting> i've compiled the latest bitcoin daemon from source
2155 2014-04-16 22:38:18 <hno> well, not your paste but getbalance.
2156 2014-04-16 22:38:29 <splitting> debian 7, same with dogecoin
2157 2014-04-16 22:38:53 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2158 2014-04-16 22:38:57 <daemon> splitting, do me a massive favour and stop spamming the word daemon :)
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2163 2014-04-16 22:40:05 <splitting> lol you're the one that decided to register a username that is a widely used term in any technology irc server :p
2164 2014-04-16 22:40:09 <hno> splitting, http://paste.fedoraproject.org/94812/39768787 is what I tested.
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2166 2014-04-16 22:40:35 <splitting> alright i'll try the authproxy class
2167 2014-04-16 22:40:35 <daemon> splitting, I chose the nickname when freenode or rather openprojects was a room on efnet ;-)
2168 2014-04-16 22:40:46 <splitting> haha alright
2169 2014-04-16 22:41:04 <splitting> wasnt on purpose though, just talking about my issue
2170 2014-04-16 22:41:17 <daemon> christ thats kinda depressing
2171 2014-04-16 22:41:18 <daemon> -NickServ- User reg.  : Dec 04 21:43:10 2002 (11 years, 19 weeks, 3 days, 00:56:05 ago)
2172 2014-04-16 22:41:21 <daemon> -_-"
2173 2014-04-16 22:41:25 <daemon> anyway back to coding
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2175 2014-04-16 22:41:47 <hno> daemon, damn, you beat me with one year.
2176 2014-04-16 22:42:10 one_zero has joined
2177 2014-04-16 22:42:20 <daemon> hno, before my user reg date there was services reset there are very few higher :P
2178 2014-04-16 22:42:55 <daemon> I think that was when they changed from openprojects to freenode
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2181 2014-04-16 22:44:34 <splitting> ohhhhh
2182 2014-04-16 22:44:46 <splitting> does bitcoin compile with ipv6 by default?
2183 2014-04-16 22:44:57 <splitting> because netstat only shows the rpc port up on ::
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2185 2014-04-16 22:45:51 <daemon> splitting, it should do
2186 2014-04-16 22:46:04 <daemon> its probably detected by autoconf if ipv6 is availible or not
2187 2014-04-16 22:46:25 <daemon> but if your using a package based system, it will depend on wether or not the compiler has IPV6 availible
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2189 2014-04-16 22:46:41 <splitting> yeah but isnt my proxy call to 127.0.0.1?
2190 2014-04-16 22:46:43 <splitting> not ::
2191 2014-04-16 22:46:54 <vetch> just hit localhost?
2192 2014-04-16 22:46:59 <daemon> it does not really matter
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2196 2014-04-16 22:47:29 <daemon> if the client is ipv6 capable it will goto ::1 (if the server is also) if not, it will use 127.0.0.1
2197 2014-04-16 22:47:39 <daemon> localhost returns an A and AAAA now days ;)
2198 2014-04-16 22:47:51 <vetch> but if you they to talk to ::1 on a system without ipv6 it will fail
2199 2014-04-16 22:48:00 <vetch> ugh. can't english today.
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2201 2014-04-16 22:48:18 <daemon> if the system has no IPV6 the resolv system should not be returning it for localhost afaik
2202 2014-04-16 22:49:31 <sipa> bitcoin has been doing ipv6 since 0.5 or 0.6 i think
2203 2014-04-16 22:49:36 <sipa> for p2p
2204 2014-04-16 22:49:46 <sipa> for rpc, a bit later
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2218 2014-04-16 22:55:50 <wc-> hi all, anyone know if it is possible for armory to have blockchain data / leveldb data in one directory, and a wallet in another?
2219 2014-04-16 22:56:00 <wc-> i can use the --satoshi-datadir for the blockchain, but armory duplicates the blockchain in its datadir (where the wallet is)
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2222 2014-04-16 22:57:08 <sipa> i doubt people here will know
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2246 2014-04-16 23:18:34 <splitting> hmm
2247 2014-04-16 23:18:43 <splitting> why is it only binding to tcp6 and not tcp?
2248 2014-04-16 23:18:57 <sipa> rpc or p20?
2249 2014-04-16 23:19:03 <sipa> *p2p
2250 2014-04-16 23:19:06 <splitting> tcp6       0      0 :::8332                 :::*                    LISTEN      3068/bitcoin
2251 2014-04-16 23:19:08 <splitting> rpc
2252 2014-04-16 23:19:22 <sipa> no clue, in that case :)
2253 2014-04-16 23:19:27 <splitting> yeah
2254 2014-04-16 23:19:40 <splitting> ive disabled ipv6 in the blacklist and systcl.conf
2255 2014-04-16 23:19:50 <sipa> blacklist?
2256 2014-04-16 23:19:58 <splitting> kernel module blacklist
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2280 2014-04-16 23:32:21 <Dagger> splitting: if you leave net.ipv6.bindv6only set to 0, then v6 sockets can accept v4 connections too
2281 2014-04-16 23:32:34 <Dagger> (which saves you from rewriting your program to listen on multiple ports)
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2285 2014-04-16 23:37:08 <splitting> alright Dagger i'll try that
2286 2014-04-16 23:37:10 <splitting> thanks :)
2287 2014-04-16 23:37:14 <splitting> rebooting my vm now
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2295 2014-04-16 23:46:44 <airbreather> so if I were to get my alternative full-node implementation to the point where I think it's compatible with bitcoind, how much work would it be to get the pulltester thing pointing at it, and how would one go about doing so?
2296 2014-04-16 23:47:09 <warren> get the pulltester source and try it yourself
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2299 2014-04-16 23:47:55 <airbreather> I don't know where the source is, I think I'm Googling wrong
2300 2014-04-16 23:48:02 <vetch> it's called jenkins.
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2305 2014-04-16 23:55:17 <airbreather> Found the main piece of what I was looking for at https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/test-scripts, I think I can work out the rest from here
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