1 2014-04-21 00:00:29 <Emcy_> what even happened with neobee
   2 2014-04-21 00:00:43 <Emcy_> i think the principal did a runner or somthin
   3 2014-04-21 00:01:01 <jcorgan> yep
   4 2014-04-21 00:01:23 <Emcy_> but they had suits and everything
   5 2014-04-21 00:01:26 <Emcy_> how could this happen
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   7 2014-04-21 00:01:50 <jakov> and a great youtube video
   8 2014-04-21 00:01:55 <jakov> yeah wrong chan, #bitcoin
   9 2014-04-21 00:02:09 <Emcy_> actually the floor staff probably got fucked over just as hard, so i shouldnt joke
  10 2014-04-21 00:02:51 <Emcy_> that live btc txn world map in the ceiling was REALLY cool though
  11 2014-04-21 00:03:05 <Emcy_> if theres one lesson that should be taken from all of this, its that
  12 2014-04-21 00:03:17 <Emcy_> more nifty txn maps with blu leds
  13 2014-04-21 00:03:22 <jakov> stop funding stupid ventures
  14 2014-04-21 00:04:04 <gmaxwell> this is all offtopic here.
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 142 2014-04-21 03:50:01 <ProfMac> I apologize for my off topic post.  It was intended for #bitcoin-otc.
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 151 2014-04-21 04:03:39 <ranger420> are there any good open source bitcoin market maker bots?
 152 2014-04-21 04:03:52 <ranger420> I would like to help provide stability to the market
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 154 2014-04-21 04:04:10 <ranger420> PS. Happy 420 ^^
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 156 2014-04-21 04:04:43 <sipa> #bitcoin-pricetalk :)
 157 2014-04-21 04:05:10 <ranger420> price talk is dead :P sorry to interrupt dev
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 168 2014-04-21 04:23:43 <Dizzle> ranger420: doubt there are any open source ones. If it's making dat money, why inspire competition?
 169 2014-04-21 04:24:26 <ranger420> stabilizing bitcoin
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 173 2014-04-21 04:29:32 <Dizzle> Well, a noble cause I suppose, though it's really just stabilizing Bitcoin and USD if you're talking about market-making on an exchange. Looks like some people got started and gave up: https://github.com/search?q=bitcoin+market+maker&type=Repositories&ref=searchresults
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 218 2014-04-21 05:32:07 <btc123> hi
 219 2014-04-21 05:32:53 <btc123> i'm trying to do some research on Proof-of-Stake, I was wondering if any of you can point me to a open-source implementation of a 100% PoS coin that was fully mined in the genesis block and then distributed
 220 2014-04-21 05:33:30 <btc123> NXT isn'y fully open-sourced
 221 2014-04-21 05:33:34 <btc123> *isn't
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 228 2014-04-21 05:43:41 <justanotheruser> btc123: blackcoin, but it has automatic checkpoints
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 230 2014-04-21 05:44:51 <sipa> btc123: 100% propf of state doea not work as a consensus algorithm
 231 2014-04-21 05:45:23 <btc123> sipa: how is NXT functioning then?
 232 2014-04-21 05:45:24 <sipa> *proof, *does
 233 2014-04-21 05:45:39 <sipa> btc123: openssl also works, despite heartbleed
 234 2014-04-21 05:46:00 <btc123> justanotheruser: blackcoin was PoW for early blocks, can i just take that to an extreme and be PoW for say the first 10 blocks?
 235 2014-04-21 05:46:00 <sipa> but every 100% posmcoin suffers from the nothingf-at-stake problem
 236 2014-04-21 05:46:16 <btc123> sipa: the argument is that the 'value of their coins' are at stake
 237 2014-04-21 05:46:26 <btc123> so why would they 51% attack their own value
 238 2014-04-21 05:46:48 <justanotheruser> btc123: 0.001 coins aren't very valuable, but trying to win based on that is easy
 239 2014-04-21 05:46:49 <btc123> the incentive structure seems to make sense, unless i'm missing something
 240 2014-04-21 05:46:49 <sipa> btc123: if you consider that a good argument, nobody would ever steal bitcoin either
 241 2014-04-21 05:47:21 <btc123> sipa: a large holder of bitcoin wouldn't want the block chain to be attacked
 242 2014-04-21 05:47:43 <sipa> unless it's sufficiently profitable or undetectable
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 244 2014-04-21 05:48:09 <btc123> sipa, so in your opinion NXT will have a critical failure at some point?
 245 2014-04-21 05:48:15 <sipa> yes
 246 2014-04-21 05:48:25 <sipa> i think it will die well before that point, though
 247 2014-04-21 05:48:37 <btc123> thats too bad, your opinion carries a lot of weight ;)
 248 2014-04-21 05:48:55 <btc123> are there any other core devs who would disagree with you?
 249 2014-04-21 05:49:25 <sipa> but yes, if it becomes sufficiently profitable, i think people will start buiilding (reverse engineering if necessary) miners that build off multiple branches of a fork
 250 2014-04-21 05:49:57 <sipa> which, if done by enough people will just cause the system to stop converging
 251 2014-04-21 05:50:12 <justanotheruser> sipa: it will probably be pretty profitable as soon as you can short NXT, right?
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 272 2014-04-21 06:40:49 <splitting> anyone here work with the python rpc api?
 273 2014-04-21 06:41:22 <Dizzle> Nope, though may be soon. Mind you, there are a couple of those out there.
 274 2014-04-21 06:42:19 <Dizzle> This seems to be the one ppl are leaning towards: https://github.com/petertodd/python-bitcoinlib
 275 2014-04-21 06:42:21 <splitting> yeah i'm using https://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinrpc
 276 2014-04-21 06:42:40 <Dizzle> k
 277 2014-04-21 06:42:42 <splitting> mostly because my code isnt bitcoin specific
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 325 2014-04-21 07:53:12 <caronmb> banned from #bitcoin!
 326 2014-04-21 07:53:12 <caronmb> haha
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 328 2014-04-21 07:55:22 <sipa> wumpus: ok to merge #4058? i want to rebase #3884 on top of it, and then push down some cs_main locks, so we don't stall everything while connecting orphans
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 392 2014-04-21 09:36:24 <jc__> Excuse me, can anyone tell me something about the transaction fee ?
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 405 2014-04-21 09:43:21 <melvster> jc__: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
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 556 2014-04-21 13:10:30 <ndak> bitcoin gonna die!
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 563 2014-04-21 13:13:18 <ndak> all because of BITCOINS Owner, who own blockchain.info and he doesnt give a fuck about bitcoin.. the blockchain.info are so lazy and laggig, and this is bussnis for several millions, but he doesnt give a shit. he could fix this for some pennys and buy some new servers. the blockchain are fuckt up and gonna make bitcoin die out
 564 2014-04-21 13:13:21 koolhaas has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 565 2014-04-21 13:13:38 <ndak> withou blockchain.info no BITCOINS
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 568 2014-04-21 13:15:14 <sipa> ndak: then don't use it
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 573 2014-04-21 13:16:32 <Luke-Jr> ndak: shut up, this is all off-topic here, and blockchain.info has little to do with Bitcoin (it doesn't even use/represent it correctly)
 574 2014-04-21 13:16:41 <ndak> lol
 575 2014-04-21 13:16:46 <ndak> they have nothing to do
 576 2014-04-21 13:16:55 <ndak> Luke-Jr stfu
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 578 2014-04-21 13:17:22 <SomeoneWeird> too slow ;)
 579 2014-04-21 13:17:25 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird wins the race
 580 2014-04-21 13:17:27 <Luke-Jr> :p
 581 2014-04-21 13:17:36 <sipa> i take off my op for yoy, sir
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 593 2014-04-21 13:22:06 <sdak> Luke-Jr: I join this channel whenever i want JUST SO YOU KNOW. Understood?
 594 2014-04-21 13:22:06 <sdak> :)
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 721 2014-04-21 15:31:56 <amaclin> Luke-Jr, can you answer a question https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=571229.0 Is there a way to connect to Eligius pool with bitcoin ( :8333 ) protocol to send non-standard tx?
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 731 2014-04-21 15:41:12 <justanotheruser> amaclin: ,,(bc,wiki free relay policy)
 732 2014-04-21 15:41:12 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Free_transaction_relay_policy | Nov 8, 2013 ... The original client currently refuses to relay transactions it considers " unacceptable". However, there may be miners that are willing to put these ...
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 737 2014-04-21 15:46:29 <amaclin> I use non-standard client "Satoshi:0.8.99/next-test:20130721" and I can create non-standard transactions, but I can not send it into the network because I do not have Eligius in my peer list
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 739 2014-04-21 15:46:57 <sipa> use -addnode=IP
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 741 2014-04-21 15:47:31 <amaclin> thanks, sipa, but what is Eligius IP? :)
 742 2014-04-21 15:48:19 <kaptah> amaclin: this will not do?`http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/pushtxn.php
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 746 2014-04-21 15:54:22 <amaclin> kaptah, thank you. I know about this web-form. May be it is possible to send non-standard tx with it, but I want to redeem non-standard :) Please read the discussion here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=571229.0 and here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=527237
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 762 2014-04-21 16:11:42 <tyrick> What file does LogPrintf write out to?
 763 2014-04-21 16:11:48 <tyrick> or fprintf even
 764 2014-04-21 16:11:57 <tyrick> trying to find a log file to tail
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 766 2014-04-21 16:12:24 <chichov> in which class do I have to sniff around to create fresh, random keypairs?
 767 2014-04-21 16:12:25 <sipa> debug.log
 768 2014-04-21 16:12:32 <sipa> chichov: CKey
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 770 2014-04-21 16:12:44 <chichov> sipa: alright, I'll take a second look
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 772 2014-04-21 16:12:54 <sipa> tyrick: with -logtostderr it goes to stderr
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 774 2014-04-21 16:15:49 <chichov> sipa: CKey::MakeNewKey generates a private key. The public key is simply derived from the private key?
 775 2014-04-21 16:16:16 <sipa> yes
 776 2014-04-21 16:17:11 <tyrick> sipa: where is it
 777 2014-04-21 16:17:16 <sipa> tyrick: ?
 778 2014-04-21 16:17:26 <tyrick> find . -name *.log only returns config.log
 779 2014-04-21 16:17:34 <chichov> In hindsight, it must be this way. All the curve parameters are set and the public key P is simply P=S*G, where G is the generator and S the secret key.
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 781 2014-04-21 16:17:37 <sipa> tyrick: it's in the data directory
 782 2014-04-21 16:17:49 <sipa> tyrick: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Data_directory
 783 2014-04-21 16:18:20 <tyrick> gotcha
 784 2014-04-21 16:18:25 <tyrick> I didn't even think to look there
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 789 2014-04-21 16:21:22 <chichov> sipa: what is meant with compression in the context of CKey?
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 797 2014-04-21 16:26:26 <tyrick> doesn't seem promising
 798 2014-04-21 16:26:40 <tyrick> tail -f debug.log
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 800 2014-04-21 16:27:28 <tyrick> then in qt/bitcoin.cpp i placed LogPrintf("*************************", "INSIDE MAIN"); in the main() function
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 802 2014-04-21 16:27:45 <tyrick> rebuild project, ran ./bitcoin-qt
 803 2014-04-21 16:27:50 <tyrick> nothing printed out
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 805 2014-04-21 16:30:31 <tyrick> well, for the moment, I take that all back
 806 2014-04-21 16:30:37 <tyrick> I was having build failures I didn't see
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 810 2014-04-21 16:32:24 <tyrick> works great
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 812 2014-04-21 16:34:34 <chichov> any way to directly print out a CKey?
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 817 2014-04-21 16:39:18 <ahf>  /w #roffe
 818 2014-04-21 16:39:38 <ahf> close, but no cigar.
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 822 2014-04-21 16:45:40 <sipa> chichov: the 33-byte format for public keys is called the compressed format (as opposed to the 65 byte format)
 823 2014-04-21 16:46:15 <sipa> chichov: you can use the base58 to convert it to a wip key
 824 2014-04-21 16:46:25 <sipa> chichov: or use HexStr directly on CKey
 825 2014-04-21 16:46:43 <chichov> HexStr seems like the way to go then
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 827 2014-04-21 16:46:49 <chichov> thanks
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 841 2014-04-21 17:05:07 <chichov> sipa: plugging CPrivKey into HexStr gives me a strange output
 842 2014-04-21 17:05:33 <chichov> whereas CPubKey seems to look fine
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 844 2014-04-21 17:06:02 <chichov> 0x04 followed by 128 hex characters (2*32 byte each)
 845 2014-04-21 17:06:12 <sipa> chichov: CPrivKey is an ssl-serialized private key
 846 2014-04-21 17:06:17 <sipa> with tons of metadata
 847 2014-04-21 17:06:23 <sipa> if you just want to private key, use CKey
 848 2014-04-21 17:06:46 <chichov> alright then, I'll keep that in mind
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 863 2014-04-21 17:28:37 <kjj> so, did I miss the meeting where we decided to replicate the forums on the dev mailing list?
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 918 2014-04-21 18:23:17 <exfortuna> What can I do as a non-developer to contribute to the protocol?
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 920 2014-04-21 18:24:09 <sipa> exfortuna: you mean to the reference client?
 921 2014-04-21 18:24:17 <sipa> the protocol very rarely changes
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 924 2014-04-21 18:25:37 <exfortuna> roger!
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 926 2014-04-21 18:26:35 <sipa> you can help test release candidates (or even pull requests)
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 931 2014-04-21 18:29:42 <exfortuna> I'll look into it, thanks!
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 950 2014-04-21 18:57:35 <Jacques__> hey all! Does anyone know what the += 27 in a compact signature is  for? (ref https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/2aed2b30b112aaaf7d46df4fd947648ca8df4e67/src/key.cpp#L415)
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 953 2014-04-21 18:58:17 <sipa> Jacques__: for adding the number 27 :)
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 955 2014-04-21 18:58:41 <sipa> Jacques__: so that the first byte distinguishes it from public keys or addresses
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 959 2014-04-21 18:59:41 <Jacques__> Jacques__: not sure I follow, how would it ever be confused with them?
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 961 2014-04-21 19:00:25 <sipa> public keys are the same length (if uncompressed), and start with 0x04
 962 2014-04-21 19:00:37 <sipa> we just picked some number
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 966 2014-04-21 19:01:33 <sipa> and addresses have data starting with 0x00 or 0x02, and private keys 0x80
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 968 2014-04-21 19:01:52 <sipa> those have a different length, though
 969 2014-04-21 19:02:34 <Jacques__> lol
 970 2014-04-21 19:02:42 <Jacques__> fair enough :)
 971 2014-04-21 19:03:10 <Jacques__> if Bitcoin stands the test of time, in its exact current form... it will be a conspiracy I'm sure
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 973 2014-04-21 19:04:16 <sipa> it may well be that bitcoin stands the test of time, but message signatures don't
 974 2014-04-21 19:04:21 <sipa> they're quite independent
 975 2014-04-21 19:04:40 <Jacques__> Funny part was
 976 2014-04-21 19:04:48 <Jacques__> 'Bitcoin Signed Message:\n' is 27 characters
 977 2014-04-21 19:04:52 <Jacques__> I thought it was related
 978 2014-04-21 19:04:58 <sipa> haha :D
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 980 2014-04-21 19:05:42 <Jacques__> Why that message prefix btw?
 981 2014-04-21 19:06:06 <sipa> to prevent someone giving you a message to sign that happens to be a transaction
 982 2014-04-21 19:06:20 <sipa> so you'd sign their transaction with your key
 983 2014-04-21 19:06:24 <Jacques__> hahaah... wow, never would have thought that
 984 2014-04-21 19:06:48 <gmaxwell> Nor would the users, which is why it must be protected against in the design. :)
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 986 2014-04-21 19:07:52 <Jacques__> THey'd have to sign the binary clump though right?
 987 2014-04-21 19:08:09 <Jacques__> That mistake would only occur in an automation
 988 2014-04-21 19:08:24 <Jacques__> (by binary clump, I mean the transaction hash)
 989 2014-04-21 19:08:25 <sipa> indeed, it's unlikely, but still very easy to prevent
 990 2014-04-21 19:08:41 <sipa> you never know what life technologies start living
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 992 2014-04-21 19:09:50 <Jacques__> tl;dr you basically salted it :S
 993 2014-04-21 19:10:16 <Jacques__> but no, cool, interesting :)
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1040 2014-04-21 20:00:35 <maaku> can we start a #bitcoin-bikeshedding mailing list so we can move certain discussions there?
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1043 2014-04-21 20:04:09 <Luke-Jr> maaku: haha
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1070 2014-04-21 20:38:56 <bitnumus> Hi all, i'm receiving this warning, any cause for concern? > 2014-04-21 20:36:07 CheckForkWarningConditions: Warning: Large valid fork found
1071 2014-04-21 20:39:20 <bitnumus>   forking the chain at height 292839 (00000000000000004f34aacad7008a0affd076bc8b4e7433136ba4538f03e511)
1072 2014-04-21 20:39:25 <bitnumus>   lasting to height 295832 (000000000000000000d188728e375f977b99ee3f36b029c3bd3f5326028d9ce3).
1073 2014-04-21 20:39:27 <bitnumus> Chain state database corruption likely
1074 2014-04-21 20:39:36 <sipa> yes
1075 2014-04-21 20:40:27 <bitnumus> sipa, may have been an unclean shutdown (i'm trying to import from bootstrap.dat)
1076 2014-04-21 20:40:32 <bitnumus> how to rectify ?
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1080 2014-04-21 20:40:50 <sipa> run with -reindex
1081 2014-04-21 20:41:14 <bitnumus> ok ta
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1121 2014-04-21 21:34:33 <theodon7473> i would also love to join the bitcoin development team. Could anyone suggest me from where i should start ?
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1124 2014-04-21 21:35:13 <maaku> theodon7473: there is no 'team'
1125 2014-04-21 21:35:21 <maaku> there are issues on github, pick one
1126 2014-04-21 21:36:28 <theodon7473> maaku: ok. i would check github for further details. thank you.
1127 2014-04-21 21:37:01 <maaku> do you have a particular skillset?
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1129 2014-04-21 21:37:18 <maaku> one thing that is always helpful is writing unit tests, and is a good thing to do as you learn the code base
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1132 2014-04-21 21:39:06 <theodon7473> maaku: yes, i can do python, perl and C
1133 2014-04-21 21:39:41 <daybyter> but no java...
1134 2014-04-21 21:39:48 <theodon7473> but yes i am an amature not so professional. But i am quite confident i can.
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1137 2014-04-21 21:40:09 <theodon7473> daybyter: nop. i don't know java. Had tried javascript a long time back.
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1201 2014-04-21 22:26:13 <saizai> technical question: approx. how many bitcoin *addresses* can be generated per second?
1202 2014-04-21 22:26:21 <saizai> (not block hashes, addresses)
1203 2014-04-21 22:26:36 <saizai> supposing it’s done on a typical terraminer-grade machine
1204 2014-04-21 22:26:42 koolhaas has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1206 2014-04-21 22:27:11 <sipa> saizai: do you require their corresponding private keys too? :)
1207 2014-04-21 22:27:15 <saizai> yes
1208 2014-04-21 22:27:40 JackH has quit (Quit: JackH)
1209 2014-04-21 22:27:44 <saizai> so no, you don’t get to just enumerate bigints :P
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1211 2014-04-21 22:27:50 <sipa> dang
1212 2014-04-21 22:27:57 <saizai> give me some credit, mon ;)
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1214 2014-04-21 22:28:57 <gmaxwell> done on a typical terraminer-grade machine
1215 2014-04-21 22:29:01 <gmaxwell> zero addresses per second
1216 2014-04-21 22:29:01 <saizai> I’m trying to estimate the difficulty of an address collision attack (both targeted and random)
1217 2014-04-21 22:29:09 <gmaxwell> I like easy questions.
1218 2014-04-21 22:29:17 <saizai> per hour then?
1219 2014-04-21 22:29:32 <gmaxwell> zero per hour too. It can't generate any at all.
1220 2014-04-21 22:29:36 <saizai> or are you cheating by saying it wouldn’t have the code
1221 2014-04-21 22:29:43 <gmaxwell> no, it doesn't have the capability.
1222 2014-04-21 22:29:48 <saizai> yeah, I meant in terms of cpu/gpu power, not code
1223 2014-04-21 22:29:59 <sipa> look up oclvanitygen
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1225 2014-04-21 22:30:18 <gmaxwell> I'm not talking about software
1226 2014-04-21 22:30:21 <saizai> assume it was built to attack addresses rather than blocks :p
1227 2014-04-21 22:30:34 <sipa> that's a very vague question
1228 2014-04-21 22:30:40 <gmaxwell> High speed mining devices are not general circuits, they compute sha256, which is largely unrelated to generating addresses.
1229 2014-04-21 22:30:40 <saizai> ohright, I forgot about vanity gen
1230 2014-04-21 22:30:47 <saizai> that’s a good analogy
1231 2014-04-21 22:30:58 <saizai> gmaxwell: hence stipulating it was built to do this
1232 2014-04-21 22:31:01 <sipa> specialized hardware is specalized, and can't do anything else
1233 2014-04-21 22:31:05 <Happzz> are the criterias to determine an input's spending priority listed in specifics somewhere?
1234 2014-04-21 22:31:19 <sipa> if you're looking for an equivalent... what do you mean? hardware with the same development costs?
1235 2014-04-21 22:31:25 <sipa> the same chip area?
1236 2014-04-21 22:31:29 <Happzz> at least the way bitcoin-qt does it
1237 2014-04-21 22:31:30 <sipa> the same heat consumption?
1238 2014-04-21 22:31:36 phantomspark has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1239 2014-04-21 22:31:39 <saizai> sipa: let’s suppose total cost
1240 2014-04-21 22:31:49 <saizai> it’s necessarily a rough guess
1241 2014-04-21 22:31:59 <saizai> I’m only looking for order of magnitude or so
1242 2014-04-21 22:32:01 <gmaxwell> in any case, the space of private keys is 2^256, the space of addresses is 2^160 with the relevant work to required to find a second preimage out of some set. so you can figure out lower bound for work just assuming that you're incrementing a counter and nothing else.
1243 2014-04-21 22:32:49 <saizai> m, with no ability to target an attack
1244 2014-04-21 22:33:06 <saizai> (unless someone’s broken the crypto)
1245 2014-04-21 22:33:13 <sipa> extrapolating from gpu-based numbers, i'd say that an "equivalent" (in therms of chip area, silicon technology, ...) ASIC to a mining asic would be 10 times slower or so?
1246 2014-04-21 22:33:15 <gmaxwell> and you end up with unfathomably large numbers even on a physical basis (assuming non-adiabatic computing)
1247 2014-04-21 22:33:36 <sipa> so a 1 GH/s chip could do 100Maddr/s
1248 2014-04-21 22:33:50 <sipa> may be off by an order of magnitude
1249 2014-04-21 22:33:58 <saizai> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Vanitygen guesstimates 20Mkey/s for a good gpu
1250 2014-04-21 22:34:04 <saizai> albeit not ASIC
1251 2014-04-21 22:34:17 <sipa> ;;nethash
1252 2014-04-21 22:34:17 <gribble> 60780569.0432
1253 2014-04-21 22:34:49 <sipa> so if all mining hardware were instead address mining hardware, we'd do some 6 Taddr/s
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1255 2014-04-21 22:35:26 <saizai> which’d result in a random collision… /me calculates
1256 2014-04-21 22:35:33 <sipa> or 2^67 addresses per year
1257 2014-04-21 22:35:49 <gmaxwell> saizai: uh a "random collision" is completely useless.
1258 2014-04-21 22:35:50 <sipa> you need 2^80 to have a reasonable chance for any collision
1259 2014-04-21 22:35:54 <sipa> but collisions are useless
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1261 2014-04-21 22:36:01 <sipa> you need a preimage with an address that actually has coins
1262 2014-04-21 22:36:09 <saizai> gmaxwell: not 100% useless, just mostly
1263 2014-04-21 22:36:19 <saizai> it’d have two signing keys, which could be interesting
1264 2014-04-21 22:36:25 <saizai> (it certainly would be for tor)
1265 2014-04-21 22:36:31 <sipa> they wouldn't know it about eachother
1266 2014-04-21 22:36:34 <saizai> but yes, preimage is better
1267 2014-04-21 22:36:38 <sipa> and probably never would
1268 2014-04-21 22:36:45 <gmaxwell> saizai: It would not be interesting in the context of bitcoin.
1269 2014-04-21 22:36:47 <sipa> look at it this way
1270 2014-04-21 22:37:00 <sipa> if all satoshi's were assigned to a different address each
1271 2014-04-21 22:37:07 <gmaxwell> (also collission searches end up memory bandwidth bound, so thats a whole different anaylsis)
1272 2014-04-21 22:37:21 <sipa> that's 2^51 UTXOs
1273 2014-04-21 22:37:24 <saizai> (I know, hence my saying it’s totally ballpark)
1274 2014-04-21 22:37:27 <sipa> you'd need to match one of those
1275 2014-04-21 22:37:41 * saizai nods
1276 2014-04-21 22:37:42 <gmaxwell> you'd ge a hit in approximately 22053424868613687174649119 years assuming maximum address usage.
1277 2014-04-21 22:37:49 <saizai> heh
1278 2014-04-21 22:38:04 <gmaxwell> (and 6Ta/s)
1279 2014-04-21 22:38:15 * saizai checks what the word for that order of magnitude is
1280 2014-04-21 22:38:25 <saizai> septillion
1281 2014-04-21 22:38:54 <saizai> perfect, that’s about what I needed
1282 2014-04-21 22:38:55 <sipa> gmaxwell: how can you end up with *exactly* the same number as i do?
1283 2014-04-21 22:39:10 <sipa> the next digits are .806266, right?
1284 2014-04-21 22:39:24 <gmaxwell> .80626631966182370895149247875690951210002
1285 2014-04-21 22:39:40 <saizai> (I’m responding to an FEC comment saying that it’s “mathematically unlikely” to get an address collision by saying no actually it’s statistically impossible)
1286 2014-04-21 22:39:41 <sipa> of course, we don't actually have a julian calendar anymore
1287 2014-04-21 22:39:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: because we both mishandled leapyears in exactly the same ways.
1288 2014-04-21 22:40:10 <saizai> (and anticipating a possible “just how impossible do you mean” type question from one of the commissioners)
1289 2014-04-21 22:40:12 <gmaxwell> since years congruent to 1 mod 100 are not leapyears.
1290 2014-04-21 22:40:42 <saizai> somehow I doubt that makes much difference at this scale :p
1291 2014-04-21 22:40:57 <gmaxwell> saizai: any such thing would come either via a cryptosystem break or via broken hardware/sofware (bad rngs) not through a 'brute force' attack.
1292 2014-04-21 22:41:00 <saizai> O(20 septillion)
1293 2014-04-21 22:41:04 * saizai nods
1294 2014-04-21 22:41:19 <saizai> text I have now: “A targeted Bitcoin address collision is not merely "mathematically unlikely"; it's statistically impossible, short of a cryptographic attack on the Bitcoin algorithm sophisticated enough to completely break Bitcoin. “
1295 2014-04-21 22:41:21 <sipa> 2.2 * 10^25
1296 2014-04-21 22:42:00 <sipa> gmaxwell: better use the astronomical time of a year, which calendars approximate
1297 2014-04-21 22:42:21 <gmaxwell> sipa: have to account for the tidal braking.
1298 2014-04-21 22:42:23 <saizai> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fROdNRFL8BEqVN-6rdZeNZyN8WD2vBMYCHP4P12pxKE/edit if you want to read it
1299 2014-04-21 22:42:33 <saizai> won’t be posted until ~noon Eastern tomorrow
1300 2014-04-21 22:42:48 <saizai> and it’s responding to http://saos.fec.gov/aodocs/1255510.pdf
1301 2014-04-21 22:43:05 <edcba> as mathematically sure as statistically unlikely ?
1302 2014-04-21 22:43:31 <sipa> i think that any practical break would go in steps
1303 2014-04-21 22:43:40 <saizai> sipa: almost always does
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1305 2014-04-21 22:43:57 <sipa> where someone finds some attack on ECDSA, which reduces it some bit, but far from enough to be worrisome
1306 2014-04-21 22:44:05 <saizai> keyspace reduction attacks are the usual, not total breakage, at least for anything non-naïve in the first place
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1308 2014-04-21 22:44:56 <edcba> anyway instead of counting how many keys you can generate by seconds you should try with enumerating bigints...
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1313 2014-04-21 22:46:50 <sipa> in other words: at maximum utxo distribution, 1s of the world's current total hash power (converted to equivalent address mining) would gain you .000000000000000000000000000086 BTC
1314 2014-04-21 22:46:54 <sipa> on average
1315 2014-04-21 22:47:33 <saizai> lol
1316 2014-04-21 22:48:00 <edcba> but imagine if 1 BTC is worth $1T !!!
1317 2014-04-21 22:48:03 <sipa> 10 minutes of it earns you 483300805995668954432435460 times less than the block subsidy you would have got with it
1318 2014-04-21 22:48:08 <saizai> I like the ‘you could do this in about 22 septillion years” answer
1319 2014-04-21 22:48:24 <saizai> it’s just in case I get asked about that line
1320 2014-04-21 22:48:48 <saizai> I never know what kind of questions I’ll get; I try to be prepared for such quips
1321 2014-04-21 22:48:48 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1323 2014-04-21 22:50:00 <sipa> there are almost as many addresses as there as atoms on earth
1324 2014-04-21 22:50:02 <edcba> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ohwvu/bitcoin_your_money_is_secured_by_the_laws_of_the/ccs83kx
1325 2014-04-21 22:50:06 <edcba> damn we aren't safe !
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1327 2014-04-21 22:51:08 <saizai> right
1328 2014-04-21 22:51:14 <saizai> just need to build a Dyson sphere first.
1329 2014-04-21 22:51:17 <gmaxwell> edcba: I'm really not so keen on that poster people keep linking to, physics as we understand them do not preclude things like adabatic computing which only need energy to reject errors. We don't know how to build such things but physics appears to permit it.
1330 2014-04-21 22:51:18 <saizai> no biggie
1331 2014-04-21 22:51:29 ryanxcha_ has joined
1332 2014-04-21 22:51:54 <saizai> but anyway, a crack of that order would break pretty much all crypto everywhere anyway
1333 2014-04-21 22:52:00 adam3us has joined
1334 2014-04-21 22:52:15 <sipa> of course, there could just be a bug in OpenSSL's EC implementation :p
1335 2014-04-21 22:52:21 <edcba> bitcoin is still safer than credit cards...
1336 2014-04-21 22:52:44 <edcba> millions of them being "cracked" a month
1337 2014-04-21 22:53:03 <saizai> yeah
1338 2014-04-21 22:53:19 <saizai> + stolen + you can just buy one in cash at your local no-camera convenience store
1339 2014-04-21 22:53:24 aschildbach has joined
1340 2014-04-21 22:53:47 <maaku> saizai: that's the bigger argument - just note how the same crypto secures pretty much every financial and governmental protocol in existence
1341 2014-04-21 22:53:56 * saizai nods
1342 2014-04-21 22:54:03 <Luke-Jr> if bitcoin had as much use as credit cards, I bet you'd see stolen wallets all over
1343 2014-04-21 22:54:25 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i'm glad we don't use this "handwritten signature" cryptosystem indeed
1344 2014-04-21 22:54:38 tesserajk_ has joined
1345 2014-04-21 22:54:45 <saizai> maaku: I’m not sure which ones use ECDSA etc
1346 2014-04-21 22:55:04 <sipa> saizai: 256 ECDSA is approximately equivalent to 3000 bit RSA
1347 2014-04-21 22:55:06 <saizai> so it’s easier to just say ‘break Bitcoin’ than be more grandiose
1348 2014-04-21 22:55:46 <sipa> i believe 512-bit RSA is still used?
1349 2014-04-21 22:56:52 <sipa> hmm, could be cracked for $150, according to a stackexchange answer
1350 2014-04-21 22:57:00 mrkent has joined
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1354 2014-04-21 22:57:13 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1355 2014-04-21 22:57:15 tesserajk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1356 2014-04-21 22:57:16 tesserajk_ is now known as tesserajk
1357 2014-04-21 22:57:29 tesserajk has left ()
1358 2014-04-21 22:58:08 CheckDavid has joined
1359 2014-04-21 22:58:16 <gmaxwell> sipa: yes, I've cracked RSA512.
1360 2014-04-21 22:58:46 <sipa> i will quote you on this
1361 2014-04-21 22:58:52 <sipa> 00:56:12 < gmaxwell> sipa: yes, I've cracked RSA
1362 2014-04-21 22:59:01 <sipa> (some bits lost)
1363 2014-04-21 22:59:01 <saizai> http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/04/21/bitbeat-bitcoin-and-political-donations/?mod=wsj_streaming_stream just got posted
1364 2014-04-21 22:59:02 <gmaxwell> You have a future in journalism I see.
1365 2014-04-21 22:59:12 MoALTz_ has joined
1366 2014-04-21 22:59:13 <saizai> :)
1367 2014-04-21 22:59:34 <sipa> "Bitcoin Core developer admits attacking cryptography used by banks."
1368 2014-04-21 22:59:39 ahmed_ is now known as ahmed_afk
1369 2014-04-21 22:59:44 <Luke-Jr> rofl
1370 2014-04-21 23:00:52 <Luke-Jr> right now some journalist is reading this thinking "holy cow, bitcoin devs are discussing attacking banks"
1371 2014-04-21 23:01:02 agricocb has joined
1372 2014-04-21 23:01:03 * gmaxwell facepalm
1373 2014-04-21 23:01:34 * sipa napalm
1374 2014-04-21 23:01:40 postpre has joined
1375 2014-04-21 23:01:48 austinhill has joined
1376 2014-04-21 23:01:58 <saizai> Luke-Jr: You have a future in politics I see.
1377 2014-04-21 23:02:27 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1378 2014-04-21 23:03:02 <Luke-Jr> saizai: I sure hope not.
1379 2014-04-21 23:03:07 <saizai> :P
1380 2014-04-21 23:06:15 ryanxcha_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1385 2014-04-21 23:11:02 HM is now known as HM2
1386 2014-04-21 23:11:04 * owowo loves the smell of napalm in the morning
1387 2014-04-21 23:11:20 * saracen hates the smell of facepalm in the morning
1388 2014-04-21 23:12:58 <jcorgan> hmm github https authentication failure
1389 2014-04-21 23:14:21 alt123 has joined
1390 2014-04-21 23:14:22 <edcba> credit cards are often used for ingestion of drugs whereas bitcoin never !
1391 2014-04-21 23:14:48 <alt123> hey guys, i was wondering if there is a 'dev' channel for alt-coin related discussion?
1392 2014-04-21 23:15:00 <alt123> i'm trying to generate a genesis block for a chain using X11
1393 2014-04-21 23:15:05 adam3us has joined
1394 2014-04-21 23:15:06 utfib has joined
1395 2014-04-21 23:15:38 <alt123> ^ X11 proof of work algo
1396 2014-04-21 23:15:47 <edcba> X11 ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System ?
1397 2014-04-21 23:15:56 <jcorgan> alt123: not this one
1398 2014-04-21 23:16:42 <sipa> (if only all those altcoin authors would realize that the genesis block isn't actually validated...)
1399 2014-04-21 23:21:40 <jcorgan> anyone else able to get to github via https?  getting HSTS certificate failure on authentication
1400 2014-04-21 23:22:25 GMP has joined
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1405 2014-04-21 23:29:29 <jakov> sipa does that mean the nonce for a genesis block could be anything?
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1412 2014-04-21 23:35:57 <melvster> jakov: genesis block is not special it just has a previous block of 0 ... the nonce can be anything
1413 2014-04-21 23:36:28 <sipa> jakov: yes
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1416 2014-04-21 23:38:42 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: passes here, sounds like you're getting MITMed by someone with a valid cert? :P  can you grab the certificate you're seeing?
1417 2014-04-21 23:39:30 yubrew has joined
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1424 2014-04-21 23:46:06 gjs278 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1425 2014-04-21 23:46:46 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1426 2014-04-21 23:47:26 utfib has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1430 2014-04-21 23:50:26 <jcorgan> http://pastebin.com/cnMD6AUK is what is returned by openssl
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1442 2014-04-21 23:58:32 <jcorgan> works with Firefox.  Maybe my MITM attacker just got my github credentials :)