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  28 2014-04-22 00:35:51 <sipa> maaku: what are those encode/decodedouble functions?
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  36 2014-04-22 00:38:45 <maaku> I explained it better on github : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4067#discussion_r11791855
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  38 2014-04-22 00:39:12 <maaku> but basically, converts a double to a uint64_t in such a way that for two doubles a,b if a<b then Encode(a)<Encode(b)
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  48 2014-04-22 00:48:41 <saizai> whee, https://makeyourlaws.org/fec/bitcoin/pacs updated. >< re posting your address publicly and yet saying you need to collect certain info to obey the law (cf Abbott’s site)
  49 2014-04-22 00:50:46 <saizai> still think that http://docquery.fec.gov/pdf/038/13031070038/13031070038.pdf is the most entertaining bit tho
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  53 2014-04-22 00:52:30 <midnightmagic> saizai: Hey whatever happened to those recommendations you were making anyway? Did that end up having a good impact?
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  55 2014-04-22 00:52:47 <saizai> midnightmagic: https://makeyourlaws.org/fec/bitcoin
  56 2014-04-22 00:52:54 <saizai> 2 draft AOs up
  57 2014-04-22 00:52:59 <saizai> meeting is wed am
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  59 2014-04-22 00:53:11 <saizai> will livestream, you can join after the meeting part’s over
  60 2014-04-22 00:53:12 <midnightmagic> oh!
  61 2014-04-22 00:53:35 <saizai> and thanks for y’all’s help in making sure it was precise ;-)
  62 2014-04-22 00:53:49 <saizai> balancing that w/ understandable was tricky
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  67 2014-04-22 00:56:11 <saizai> midnightmagic: IOW yes I actually was serious :P
  68 2014-04-22 00:56:59 <midnightmagic> saizai: I believed you fwiw.
  69 2014-04-22 00:57:05 <saizai> ;-)
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  81 2014-04-22 01:09:59 <saizai> midnightmagic: btw there’s still time to submit comments of your own if you want to
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  88 2014-04-22 01:14:01 <midnightmagic> saizai: I'm Canadian, I'm not sure I have the moral right to.
  89 2014-04-22 01:14:08 <midnightmagic> :)
  90 2014-04-22 01:14:14 <saizai> morals I won’t comment on
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  92 2014-04-22 01:14:16 <saizai> legally you do
  93 2014-04-22 01:14:23 <saizai> anyone’s allowed to comment.
  94 2014-04-22 01:14:39 <saizai> and you don’t have to disclose your citizenship
  95 2014-04-22 01:15:10 <midnightmagic> Okay then.
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 102 2014-04-22 01:21:49 * saizai shrugs
 103 2014-04-22 01:21:57 <saizai> no pressure etc. just being informative :p
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 129 2014-04-22 01:46:09 <maaku> saizai: I hope that you can get bitcoin treated as in-kind
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 133 2014-04-22 01:51:15 <saizai> maaku: ditto
 134 2014-04-22 01:51:22 <saizai> it’d be pretty bad if not
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 368 2014-04-22 06:07:14 <robonerd> roast beef is delicious
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 401 2014-04-22 06:29:24 <warren> devrandom: in gitian if a "files:" is missing, why doesn't it error out immediately instead of try to start the builder?
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 422 2014-04-22 06:45:24 <_andares> is https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification the best place to learn about the structure of the P2P network used for relaying transactions?
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 426 2014-04-22 06:47:58 <gmaxwell> _andares: probably; there isn't much to learn. It's a flooding network with a lightweight inventory/response structure.
 427 2014-04-22 06:48:47 ThomasV has joined
 428 2014-04-22 06:48:58 <_andares> I was interested in how peer discovery works
 429 2014-04-22 06:49:10 Andymeows has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 430 2014-04-22 06:49:13 <_andares> I have much to learn about P2P networks
 431 2014-04-22 06:50:25 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 432 2014-04-22 06:51:02 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 433 2014-04-22 06:51:13 <gmaxwell> In bitcoin peer discovery also works via flooding
 434 2014-04-22 06:51:31 johnsoft has joined
 435 2014-04-22 06:52:04 <warren> ping wumpus
 436 2014-04-22 06:52:23 phantomspark has joined
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 438 2014-04-22 06:53:25 <_andares> gmaxwell: so there's some starting peers, and it sends a message asking for everyone within X hops to return their friends?
 439 2014-04-22 06:53:43 discoffee has joined
 440 2014-04-22 06:53:48 <gmaxwell> _andares: it asks ever peer it talks to to tell it about some peers that peer knows about.
 441 2014-04-22 06:54:16 <sipa> peers are found through: the command line, a hardcoded list, dns seeds, a peer database and peer gossiping
 442 2014-04-22 06:54:34 <sipa> well, all of them just add entries to the peer database
 443 2014-04-22 06:54:38 <gmaxwell> sipa: also addr.txt if available.
 444 2014-04-22 06:54:46 <sipa> still?
 445 2014-04-22 06:55:00 <sipa> i haven't encountered the code for that in a long time
 446 2014-04-22 06:55:02 <gmaxwell> hm. I guess we lost that feature. :)
 447 2014-04-22 06:55:08 <_andares> and when a transction is sent, it's sent to all the peers that the client knows about, and it asks the peers to forward it as well?
 448 2014-04-22 06:55:28 Milanito has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 449 2014-04-22 06:55:30 <sipa> you only notify peers of a new transaction
 450 2014-04-22 06:55:40 <sipa> they'll query it from you if they are interested
 451 2014-04-22 06:55:51 <sipa> (mostly: don't know about it yet)
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 453 2014-04-22 06:56:04 <sipa> and if they learn a new transaction that way, they forward it too
 454 2014-04-22 06:56:31 <_andares> like you advertise the hash of the transaction, and if it doesn't know about it, it asks you for it?
 455 2014-04-22 06:56:41 <sipa> technically: an 'inv' message is sent to announce the hash of the transaction
 456 2014-04-22 06:56:53 <sipa> they send a 'getdata' if they want to know about it
 457 2014-04-22 06:57:01 sneak has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 458 2014-04-22 06:57:08 <sipa> you reply with a 'tx' message in that case
 459 2014-04-22 06:57:11 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 460 2014-04-22 06:57:24 <sipa> (or, since recently, potentially a 'notfound' message)
 461 2014-04-22 06:57:53 <wumpus> warren: pong
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 463 2014-04-22 06:59:42 <_andares> what will my neighbors be if I'm a node in the bitcoin network?
 464 2014-04-22 06:59:59 <_andares> (is there a distance metric, or just whomever I happen to know about?)
 465 2014-04-22 07:00:12 Milanito has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 466 2014-04-22 07:00:13 <Emcy_> its random
 467 2014-04-22 07:00:15 <gmaxwell> the network is randomly wired.
 468 2014-04-22 07:00:22 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 469 2014-04-22 07:00:25 <gmaxwell> (which generally has good and important properties)
 470 2014-04-22 07:00:34 <_andares> the way hash distance is used in a DHT?
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 472 2014-04-22 07:00:42 <Emcy_> well there is the backbone thing. not quite random no more
 473 2014-04-22 07:01:06 <gmaxwell> Emcy_: that isn't part of the network, its just _additional_ peerings people have manually configured.
 474 2014-04-22 07:01:19 <sipa> _andares: bitcoin does not use any kind of DHT
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 476 2014-04-22 07:01:27 <_andares> I understand that.
 477 2014-04-22 07:01:31 <gmaxwell> _andares: No, not the way hash distance is used in a DHT. There is no locality in bitcoin and no need for any locality. There is no routing.
 478 2014-04-22 07:01:52 <sipa> distance is since hops
 479 2014-04-22 07:01:56 <sipa> *simply
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 481 2014-04-22 07:02:42 <_andares> do I consider all nodes I found about in my getaddr() requests as my peers?
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 486 2014-04-22 07:03:01 <Emcy_> you get 8 random nodes by default
 487 2014-04-22 07:03:32 <sipa> there is a background thread that tries to maintain (up to) 8 outgoing connections
 488 2014-04-22 07:03:32 <Emcy_> the randomness is important to mitigate anyone trying to tell fibs to your node
 489 2014-04-22 07:03:45 <sipa> if there are less, a more-or-less-random peer from the peer database is pickec
 490 2014-04-22 07:03:56 <sipa> there are some intentional biases in which are picked
 491 2014-04-22 07:04:07 cadaver has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 492 2014-04-22 07:04:11 <sipa> like not connecting to more than one peer in the same /16 IPv4 block
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 494 2014-04-22 07:05:01 <_andares> how does randomness keep people from telling you fibs? because an attacker can't easily cut off and control a pocket of the network?
 495 2014-04-22 07:06:11 <gmaxwell> _andares: the randomness doesn't prevent lying. Bitcoin nodes validate everything and do not trust their peers.  The topology does, however, make partitioning difficult.
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 499 2014-04-22 07:07:27 <_andares> have there been any serious attacks against the P2P network?
 500 2014-04-22 07:07:54 <warren> sipa: you intend for 4048 and 4076 to be in 0.9.2?
 501 2014-04-22 07:08:37 beachandbytes has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 502 2014-04-22 07:08:52 <gmaxwell> _andares: does serious imply effective?
 503 2014-04-22 07:09:16 phantomspark has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 504 2014-04-22 07:10:05 <_andares> or noteworthy in some other way, such as being ineffective but coordinated
 505 2014-04-22 07:11:06 <gmaxwell> There have been attacks, none have been effective.  Some of them have severely harmed 'altcoins' which forked old bitcoin code and have not kept up with changes.
 506 2014-04-22 07:11:14 <_andares> it seems that Sybil attacks are less effective, due to a flooding architecture rather than a routing protocol like DHTs emply
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 509 2014-04-22 07:12:37 <gmaxwell> DHTs are almost universally completely vulnerable to attacks like that, and I personally believe that if Bitcoin were structured like a common DHT it would have been taken out by attacks a long time ago.
 510 2014-04-22 07:13:09 <_andares> that's why I was curious about the structure of the protocol
 511 2014-04-22 07:13:11 <Emcy_> there were some node crashing attacsk wernt there
 512 2014-04-22 07:13:22 damethos has joined
 513 2014-04-22 07:13:55 <gmaxwell> (and as a result of DHT's being the only kind of distributed system many people have ever heard of they are often invoked as some kind of magical distributed system cure all, much to my own irritation; since in our case they involve vulnerabilities we are structurally immune to)
 514 2014-04-22 07:14:37 djcoin_ has joined
 515 2014-04-22 07:14:52 <_andares> could an attacker with a botnet disrupt the network by spinning up a few thousand uncooperative peers?
 516 2014-04-22 07:15:27 <_andares> I guess all 8 peers the clients would be connected to would have to be malicious
 517 2014-04-22 07:15:34 <gmaxwell> a few thousand? unlikely. With enough, it could disrupt new nodes at least.
 518 2014-04-22 07:15:37 <_andares> and since the selection is random it's very unlikely to occur
 519 2014-04-22 07:15:58 <gmaxwell> though that disruption can be manually avoded by simply adding some known friend peers manually.
 520 2014-04-22 07:16:33 <_andares> hm. it could have when the network was smaller, back when only a few hundred nodes were on the network wouldn't it?
 521 2014-04-22 07:16:42 <Emcy_> good nodes eventually ban shitty ones
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 523 2014-04-22 07:16:44 <_andares> or do the good properties of randomness scale down?
 524 2014-04-22 07:16:45 olalonde has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 525 2014-04-22 07:17:04 <gmaxwell> Emcy_: only if they're detectably bad.
 526 2014-04-22 07:17:19 <gmaxwell> _andares: it's relative, you can compute the propbability of connecting to all bad nodes given a certian proportion of bad nodes in the network.
 527 2014-04-22 07:17:27 <Emcy_> if you suddenly made thousands of bad nodes, you could probably shit things up for a good while? until they got banned out enough
 528 2014-04-22 07:17:37 <Emcy_> then the mother of all reorgs or something
 529 2014-04-22 07:17:48 <sipa> they can just not relay anything
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 531 2014-04-22 07:17:49 <gmaxwell> If you connect to add bad nodes you'll be 'disrupted' by virtue of being isolated, which— in general— isn't terribly harmful, but its a denial of serice.
 532 2014-04-22 07:17:57 <sipa> we won't consider that 'bad'
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 539 2014-04-22 07:19:30 <gmaxwell> (partitioning miners is worse, but it's much harder to partition them as they tend to be long lived nodes, and large ones have manual peerings in addition to the random ones)
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 554 2014-04-22 07:26:58 <Emcy_> does the 8 random outgoing connections really not have any security benefit? I understand your node checks all chain stuff anyway
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 557 2014-04-22 07:27:23 <Emcy_> what about mempool stuff
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 559 2014-04-22 07:28:38 <tg2> oi
 560 2014-04-22 07:28:49 <xdotcommer> tg2: welcome
 561 2014-04-22 07:28:52 <sipa> Emcy_: one good peer is enough
 562 2014-04-22 07:29:03 <tg2> question about high volume transaction processing
 563 2014-04-22 07:29:06 <sipa> Emcy_: that's all the benefit 8 peers has: making it hard for them to be all bad
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 565 2014-04-22 07:29:40 <tg2> if I wanted to listen for potentially 100 transactions in a very short time (say within 5 seconds)
 566 2014-04-22 07:29:45 <tg2> what is the best way to do this with bitcoind?
 567 2014-04-22 07:29:52 <tg2> --walletnotify doesn't seem to scale well in testing
 568 2014-04-22 07:30:17 <sipa> i'd say use something like pynode behind bitcoind
 569 2014-04-22 07:30:30 <tg2> so somethign that is manually parsing the disk blocks?
 570 2014-04-22 07:30:34 <tg2> generated by bitocind?
 571 2014-04-22 07:30:44 gimmetime has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 572 2014-04-22 07:30:46 <sipa> well, 'manually'... there are enough tools for that
 573 2014-04-22 07:30:55 <tg2> worth memory hooking bitcoind to listen for txn receives?
 574 2014-04-22 07:31:05 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 575 2014-04-22 07:31:11 <sipa> memory hooking?
 576 2014-04-22 07:31:25 <tg2> yeah
 577 2014-04-22 07:31:40 <xdotcommer> sipa: pynode seems abandoned
 578 2014-04-22 07:32:25 <tg2> > Script verification is a separate, manual
 579 2014-04-22 07:32:25 <tg2> process (testscript.py).
 580 2014-04-22 07:32:27 <tg2> :\
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 582 2014-04-22 07:32:51 <sipa> you don't need script verification; bitcoind does that for you
 583 2014-04-22 07:33:38 <tg2> does pynode need a running bitcoind instance?
 584 2014-04-22 07:33:49 <tg2> or would that just be used to verify txn confirmations etc
 585 2014-04-22 07:34:08 <sipa> no, it just speaks the p2p protocol
 586 2014-04-22 07:34:32 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 587 2014-04-22 07:34:42 <sipa> (i said "something like pynode"; there are many alternatives)
 588 2014-04-22 07:35:02 <sipa> but whatever you do, you want to run in behind a trusted bitcoind if you're receiving transactions
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 591 2014-04-22 07:36:03 <tg2> know of any alternatives to pynode?
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 596 2014-04-22 07:40:25 <warren> wumpus: Regarding #4042, what he wants to add are pretty much A == A sanity checks and things to automatically watch out for future added symbols.  I personally would just ACK the current commits and ask for the further work to be added in the next PR.
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 601 2014-04-22 07:49:53 <sipa> warren: #4048 should be doable for 0.9.2; for #4076 maybe people will want more thorough review as it's consensus-critical
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 608 2014-04-22 07:53:51 <warren> can we mark the likely PR's with a 0.9.2 milestone?
 609 2014-04-22 07:54:00 <wumpus> has already been done...
 610 2014-04-22 07:54:18 <wumpus> haven't included #4048 there as it doesn't really add any functionality or fix a bug
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 612 2014-04-22 07:54:32 <sipa> yeah, don't care much about it
 613 2014-04-22 07:54:53 <sipa> just a "if it's ready, no reason not to include it", as it seems 0.9.2 will be from master?
 614 2014-04-22 07:55:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: I haven't acked 4076 yet mostly because we don't have a unit test for ComputeMinWork and I wanted to think harder about corner cases there.
 615 2014-04-22 07:55:10 <wumpus> it's nice to have it tested but 0.9.2 is not meant as a release to test stuff
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 617 2014-04-22 07:55:21 <sipa> wumpus: ok
 618 2014-04-22 07:55:41 <wumpus> yes, 0.9.2 will be from master, I sent around a mail about it
 619 2014-04-22 07:56:23 <warren> I'm aborting work on the macosx gitian stuff for today and just finishing the announcement
 620 2014-04-22 07:56:30 <warren> gitian needs a lot more work
 621 2014-04-22 07:56:50 <wumpus> all the 'get rid of openssl' changes can be merged after 0.9.2 is branched
 622 2014-04-22 07:57:21 <sipa> wumpus: ok, so we're now effectively in a 0.9.2 merge window; good to know
 623 2014-04-22 07:57:31 <gmaxwell> I'm fine with merging all of them for master but wouldn't feel comfortable with 0.9.2 without a bit more review.
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 625 2014-04-22 07:58:07 <warren> 3 weeks until feature and string freeze and RC.
 626 2014-04-22 07:58:19 <wumpus> sipa: I thnk it's the easiest way to do it; branching 0.9.2 off now would be possible, too, but then some pulls have to be merged into both branches
 627 2014-04-22 07:58:25 <warren> hopefully 1 week of testing.  can be extended if more changes are needed.
 628 2014-04-22 07:58:43 <gmaxwell> (well the base58 stuff I'm already fine with 0.9.2 as its not consensus critical and was easy to review)
 629 2014-04-22 07:58:44 <sipa> wumpus: ok
 630 2014-04-22 07:59:15 <wumpus> gmaxwell: ok, let's just merge the base58 one then, I'm fine with it too
 631 2014-04-22 07:59:34 <warren> has anyone figured out what was causing testnet nodes to hard fork and fall behind?
 632 2014-04-22 07:59:35 Zifre_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 633 2014-04-22 07:59:42 <sipa> getting rid of openssl entirely will also require: sha1/sha256/sha512/ripemd160 hash implementations, libsecp256k1, and a pseudo RNG
 634 2014-04-22 08:00:20 <archrs> NaCl?
 635 2014-04-22 08:00:27 <gmaxwell> warren: huh?
 636 2014-04-22 08:00:52 <warren> gmaxwell: 2-3 weeks ago testnet nodes fell behind for me and hno
 637 2014-04-22 08:01:04 <warren> gmaxwell: in hno's case it was 0.8.6 and 0.9.0.  in my case it was master
 638 2014-04-22 08:01:06 <gmaxwell> mine didn't.
 639 2014-04-22 08:01:11 <gmaxwell> Any more information?
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 641 2014-04-22 08:01:36 <warren> hmm, I have testnet3/ frozen at that point, let me see if it fails to recover
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 645 2014-04-22 08:03:50 <sipa> heh, seems i got a 2600 uBTC/bit/ubit/xbit/XBT/mike/... tip for a commit
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 647 2014-04-22 08:04:12 <gmaxwell> archrs: doesn't have ripemd160, doesn't have a random pool, I think it doesn't have sha1, basically all it has that we need is bogstandard sha256/sha512 implementations, which is fine but they're only a couple hundred lines of code.   We also need an implementation of the openssl kdf function and aes, though not in a disable wallet build which is I think the first phase goal for no-openssl.
 648 2014-04-22 08:04:45 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea I've gotten those too.  took me a while to figure out what those payments were.
 649 2014-04-22 08:05:07 <wumpus> sipa: I even got some litecoins a while ago for a commit!
 650 2014-04-22 08:05:09 <gmaxwell> esp since they happen at merge time, and other people were merging my patches at random time. Wasn't until I merged one of my own did I figure it out.
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 652 2014-04-22 08:06:04 <wumpus> sipa: at last a small compensation for all the copying of our commits to altcoin repositories :p
 653 2014-04-22 08:06:14 <sipa> ha, on their site you can get a list of commits they were for
 654 2014-04-22 08:06:21 <sipa> wth, i got one for adding some release note lines
 655 2014-04-22 08:06:36 <sipa> and for increasing the default dbcache size
 656 2014-04-22 08:06:47 <wumpus> yes, they reward for any commit, there is no vetting
 657 2014-04-22 08:06:49 <gmaxwell> go go warped incentives.
 658 2014-04-22 08:06:59 <warren> http://togami.com/~warren/temp/fail.txt   Here's the point where testnet failed
 659 2014-04-22 08:07:06 <gmaxwell> warren: I don't see any failure there.
 660 2014-04-22 08:07:41 <gmaxwell> warren: looks like there was a reorg and it should have continued after the next block caused it to link back, or something like that.
 661 2014-04-22 08:08:07 <gmaxwell> Dunno what those super annoying ping messages are all about probably some nussance test node with a misimplemented ping.
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 663 2014-04-22 08:08:48 <sipa> wumpus: i have received a few more significant tips before
 664 2014-04-22 08:09:06 <warren> gmaxwell: I left my other node running for 2 days after this and it remained stuck at this point
 665 2014-04-22 08:09:23 grau has joined
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 667 2014-04-22 08:09:32 <warren> anyone have a fast testnet peer I can connect to?
 668 2014-04-22 08:09:59 <gmaxwell> warren: having logs of the future past that point would be helpful then.
 669 2014-04-22 08:10:05 <gmaxwell> it doesn't appear to be rejecting any blocks.
 670 2014-04-22 08:10:17 <warren> sadly that node is gone now
 671 2014-04-22 08:10:36 <sipa> i always like post-merge pulltester reports
 672 2014-04-22 08:12:37 <wumpus> sipa: always very reassuring
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 674 2014-04-22 08:12:45 <warren> connected to 12 testnet peers and still stuck right now
 675 2014-04-22 08:13:02 <gmaxwell> sipa: I did actually test it again myself before merging it. :) Besides, if it failed you'd get paid for another commit.
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 677 2014-04-22 08:13:30 <gmaxwell> warren: what does "still stuck" mean? has it been on continiously while testnet has recieved new blocks? what is it logging?
 678 2014-04-22 08:13:53 <warren> gmaxwell: only started it again a few minutes ago
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 681 2014-04-22 08:15:03 <olalonde> I've had some trouble connecting to testnet as well recently
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 684 2014-04-22 08:17:09 <sipa> my testnet node is at 00000000ad44071ceeecddb2e9562109f6d876ee018fd6355dab8738b1e0d54c (226004)
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 688 2014-04-22 08:19:36 <gmaxwell> olalonde: connecting is almost always problematic. there aren't really enough reachable testnet nodes.
 689 2014-04-22 08:20:18 <olalonde> right... to be honest, I'm not even sure mine is reachable. I have setup port forwarding right?
 690 2014-04-22 08:20:27 <warren> 2014-04-22 08:15:22 ProcessBlock: ORPHAN BLOCK 0, prev=00000000ad44071ceeecddb2e9562109f6d876ee018fd6355dab8738b1e0d54c
 691 2014-04-22 08:20:30 <gmaxwell> mine is now at 000000000000821fb5b632b433454fb95830dd5e11b73a69ac6f1310a5e91df3 226005 but my 226004 is the same as sipas.
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 693 2014-04-22 08:22:06 <olalonde> gmaxwell: btw, seems Vault of Satoshi is the first exchange to implement proof of solvency in a standard way http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/23m1de/vault_of_satoshi_launches_full_public_proof_of/ (in case you didn't get that news yet)
 694 2014-04-22 08:22:31 <warren> gmaxwell: is 000000000001bf838a2364dd6598d0b3331f87416024f1c321cc59e153d8e01d in your chain?
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 696 2014-04-22 08:23:22 <devrandom> warren: because it's non-perfect... pull requests solicited
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 698 2014-04-22 08:28:01 <warren> 2014-04-22 08:21:33 ProcessBlock: ORPHAN BLOCK 321, prev=000000000000889284f25cea00e8ef7bfaef2dc95bf725904f60f8ce03aea6a7
 699 2014-04-22 08:28:08 <warren> I'll leave this running for another day
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 701 2014-04-22 08:31:02 <maaku> thanks for the review sipa
 702 2014-04-22 08:33:27 <gmaxwell> warren: no, it's an orphan.
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 704 2014-04-22 08:34:09 <warren> this node is on     "blocks" : 224679,
 705 2014-04-22 08:34:33 <warren> gmaxwell: is it a bug that it's stuck on a shorter chain?
 706 2014-04-22 08:35:59 Milanito has joined
 707 2014-04-22 08:36:39 <gmaxwell> yes.
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 709 2014-04-22 08:36:53 <gmaxwell> assuming its not just due to your peers having no better.
 710 2014-04-22 08:37:06 <warren> I'm connected to my local peer which is equal to you and sipa
 711 2014-04-22 08:37:50 <gmaxwell> I traced that fork back, and the first block on the losing side of the fork is 000000000001ec136896f4d0b554e991394973ee6e070a21b44b809a4bea1d0a
 712 2014-04-22 08:38:04 <gmaxwell> 1876 blocks ago from the perspective of my node.
 713 2014-04-22 08:38:21 <gmaxwell> warren: what code are you running?
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 719 2014-04-22 08:39:33 <warren> gmaxwell: fecda6853d9bbc3b6df13e48cb0283e7c8ab7d52.  should I upgrade to master and try again?
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 721 2014-04-22 08:40:06 <gmaxwell> no. whatever do don't lose the state of your current node.
 722 2014-04-22 08:40:26 <gmaxwell> fecda6853d9bbc3b6df13e48cb0283e7c8ab7d52. isn't in my git tree here so I don't know what that is.
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 724 2014-04-22 08:40:49 <gmaxwell> (the git describe version number might be helpful! :P)
 725 2014-04-22 08:40:49 <warren> commit fecda6853d9bbc3b6df13e48cb0283e7c8ab7d52
 726 2014-04-22 08:40:49 <warren> Merge: 952bf97 4c35366
 727 2014-04-22 08:40:49 <warren> Author: Wladimir J. van der Laan <laanwj@gmail.com>
 728 2014-04-22 08:40:49 <warren> Date:   Thu Apr 3 13:50:44 2014 +0200
 729 2014-04-22 08:40:50 <warren>     Merge pull request #3929
 730 2014-04-22 08:41:21 <warren> it's in master
 731 2014-04-22 08:41:29 <gmaxwell> oh my error, its past my bedtime, the search I did included the .
 732 2014-04-22 08:41:50 <warren> ok, stop the node and make a backup copy?
 733 2014-04-22 08:41:59 <gmaxwell> can you please?
 734 2014-04-22 08:42:01 <warren> ok
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 736 2014-04-22 08:42:27 <gmaxwell> I don't recall any changes which would have impacted the sync logic.
 737 2014-04-22 08:42:46 <warren> wumpus mentioned there was a sipa change recently?
 738 2014-04-22 08:43:29 <gmaxwell> in any case, get a backup ... I'll research more later, perhaps try search to see if there is anything odd about that hash I gave you which was the first in that long fork you can't seem to reorg off of.
 739 2014-04-22 08:43:44 <gmaxwell> warren: ah, perhaps, in that case, feel free to backup and try master.
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 741 2014-04-22 08:43:57 <warren> making backup copy
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 767 2014-04-22 09:07:54 <fanquake> ;;blocks
 768 2014-04-22 09:07:54 <gribble> 297118
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 798 2014-04-22 09:43:29 <wallet42> what happens if a p2sh script containing a 2/3 multsisig with 2 valid and 1 invalid public key is tried to get spend?
 799 2014-04-22 09:44:24 <wallet42> and is it a difference if the bad pubkey is first or last
 800 2014-04-22 09:45:48 <sipa> i think it is allowed
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 814 2014-04-22 10:01:46 <warren> anyone else want the backup of testnet3 datadir that is unable to recover?
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 822 2014-04-22 10:07:30 <warren> gmaxwell: restarted with master ... still failing to recover
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 843 2014-04-22 10:13:51 <warren> wumpus: sorry I lost notes from earlier, how do I generate the source strings again?  lupdate normally work with a .pro file
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 854 2014-04-22 10:22:25 <wumpus> warren: man, why do you ask this every day?
 855 2014-04-22 10:22:39 <wumpus> warren: just read the translation process
 856 2014-04-22 10:22:46 <warren> ah crap, sorry
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 881 2014-04-22 10:48:04 <hilostitch> Hi all. Very interested in Bitcoin programming. What do i need to know, programming wise, to be able to be useful in bitcoin development? what programming languages and libraries do i need to perfect out first? Please, help if you can
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 885 2014-04-22 10:51:40 <SomeoneWeird> hilostitch, the reference client is C++
 886 2014-04-22 10:51:59 <SomeoneWeird> but you can develop bitcoin applications in any language
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 896 2014-04-22 10:58:51 <hilostitch> SomeoneWeird: So i just need to have a very deep knowledge in c++?
 897 2014-04-22 10:59:00 <SomeoneWeird> basically
 898 2014-04-22 10:59:14 <hilostitch> what about QT and boost?
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 900 2014-04-22 11:01:46 <phoenix521> ±±±±±±±±±±±±±
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 915 2014-04-22 11:19:54 <cdecker> BlueMatt: ping
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 944 2014-04-22 11:48:44 <warren> wumpus: should I kick off the nightly builder, you done merging?
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 947 2014-04-22 11:51:12 <warren> devrandom: http://www.gitian.com/  wow.
 948 2014-04-22 11:51:24 <wumpus> warren: I'm never done merging
 949 2014-04-22 11:51:54 <wumpus> warren: why not set a fixed time to kick off the nightly builder
 950 2014-04-22 11:52:24 <warren> wumpus: it does have a fixed time, it skipped most of it because nothing changed from the previous build
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 961 2014-04-22 12:01:48 <wumpus> well in that case feel free to kick it off, I don't intend to merge anything immediately right now
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 964 2014-04-22 12:04:36 <fanquake> wumpus gitian is .org no?
 965 2014-04-22 12:06:09 <warren> gitian.com has flash =)
 966 2014-04-22 12:06:38 <fanquake> gitian.com made my browser cry
 967 2014-04-22 12:06:42 <kinlo> it's .org yes
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 969 2014-04-22 12:07:36 <sipa> gitian.com says 404 here
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 986 2014-04-22 12:14:48 <kinlo> sipa: you need to prepend www. to get all the sad stuff :)
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 993 2014-04-22 12:21:01 <warren> wumpus: please review draft one more time
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1000 2014-04-22 12:24:43 <warren> wumpus: nightly includes only 4042 now
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1008 2014-04-22 12:32:56 <wumpus> looks fine to me
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1065 2014-04-22 13:47:51 <fluffypony> I have a question about accounts (I'm probably missing a clue somewhere here) - the wiki says inter-account moves are not broadcast and never incur a fee, but then surely the current balance on an address found by traversing the blockchain could be incorrect if the balance was moved to a different account (and thus a different address)?
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1067 2014-04-22 13:48:32 <sipa> fluffypony: accounts are not addresses
1068 2014-04-22 13:48:35 <wumpus> accounts are internal bookkeeping, they are indeed never broadcast (and don't need to be)
1069 2014-04-22 13:48:57 <sipa> they're just been counter ("how much of my wallet balance belongs to X")
1070 2014-04-22 13:49:02 <sipa> *bean counters
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1072 2014-04-22 13:49:10 <fluffypony> ah
1073 2014-04-22 13:49:23 <sipa> and not related at all to which coins you have, or which addresses those are assigned to
1074 2014-04-22 13:49:32 <Luke-Jr> fluffypony: addresses don't have balances either
1075 2014-04-22 13:49:40 <fluffypony> so "Each account is associated with zero or more receiving addresses, and every receiving address is associated with exactly one account." - what about moving between accounts when those accounts are associated with different balances
1076 2014-04-22 13:50:11 <Luke-Jr> fluffypony: that's not phrased the best
1077 2014-04-22 13:50:15 <wumpus> the addresses associated to accounts are only used for one thing: to add the incoming amount on that address to the balance of that account
1078 2014-04-22 13:50:17 <Apocalyptic> you shouldn't rely on accounts anyway
1079 2014-04-22 13:50:21 <Luke-Jr> addresses are associated to accounts, but the inverse is not true
1080 2014-04-22 13:50:22 <sipa> fluffypony: so, if an address X is associated with account A, it means that payments to address X increment A's balance
1081 2014-04-22 13:50:27 <Apocalyptic> and they are to be removed soon I heard
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1083 2014-04-22 13:50:36 <sipa> fluffypony: but there are other things that can modify their balance
1084 2014-04-22 13:50:48 <wumpus> after the coins have come in on an address they don't have any assoiciation to the account anymore
1085 2014-04-22 13:50:55 <fluffypony> ok got it
1086 2014-04-22 13:51:00 <wumpus> Apocalyptic: yes
1087 2014-04-22 13:51:02 <Luke-Jr> yeah, what wumpus and Apocalyptic said - accounts are going away anyhow
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1089 2014-04-22 13:51:06 <Luke-Jr> so don't use them :P
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1091 2014-04-22 13:51:12 <fluffypony> I wasn't going to
1092 2014-04-22 13:51:19 <wumpus> Apocalyptic: and because of this kind of confusing
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1094 2014-04-22 13:52:46 <Luke-Jr> well, it's confusing because of stupid websites like blockchain.info
1095 2014-04-22 13:52:56 <sturles> Luke-Jr: This will mean large changes to the RPC interface.  Is there an overview?  Many calls require an account parameter.  And I find accounts very useful, and will miss the feature. :-(
1096 2014-04-22 13:53:00 <Luke-Jr> which make people think addresses are wallets/accounts and have balances
1097 2014-04-22 13:53:17 <Luke-Jr> sturles: there's no safe way to use them right now, unfortunately.
1098 2014-04-22 13:53:24 <Luke-Jr> sturles: and they conflict with Bitcoin-Qt's labels
1099 2014-04-22 13:53:33 <sturles> Oh.
1100 2014-04-22 13:53:38 <wumpus> sturles: current plan is for a RPC interface 2.0, that removes the account functionality (as well as cleans up other things)
1101 2014-04-22 13:53:40 <Luke-Jr> sturles: maybe after they're removed, someone will add them back in a new form that is safe
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1103 2014-04-22 13:53:58 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: but probably not; they belong at a level above bitcoind
1104 2014-04-22 13:54:07 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: a level above bitcoind cannot do it as well
1105 2014-04-22 13:54:18 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: then that should be facilitated
1106 2014-04-22 13:54:21 <Luke-Jr> agreed
1107 2014-04-22 13:54:52 <wumpus> everyone that wants to use the account system wants something else, or thinks it's something else, and it's a burden to maintain (has some of the worst code in bitcoind)
1108 2014-04-22 13:55:11 <Luke-Jr> yeah, I wouldn't dare suggest use the existing code in any case :P
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1110 2014-04-22 13:55:24 <wumpus> (or: least understood/tested)
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1113 2014-04-22 13:56:06 <sturles> I use them for escrow accounts (make sure I don't touch escrow funds by accident), for various accounting purposes, and to keep coins for an intended purpose separate from the rest.  Makes it very easy to stay in control, since more than one wallet on the same computer is impossible.
1114 2014-04-22 13:56:26 <Luke-Jr>  (make sure I don't touch escrow funds by accident), <-- this doesn't make sense for bitcoind accounts
1115 2014-04-22 13:56:29 <sipa> sturles: you know accounts have nothing to do with coin control right?
1116 2014-04-22 13:56:42 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind WILL let you bring other accounts negative, so you still end up "touching" the funds
1117 2014-04-22 13:56:43 <sipa> it doesn't keep coins separate by any means
1118 2014-04-22 13:56:51 <wumpus> sturles: multiple wallets should be possible at some point
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1120 2014-04-22 13:57:16 <Luke-Jr> … since more than one wallet on the same computer is impossible. <-- not impossible
1121 2014-04-22 13:57:28 <sipa> pretty hard, right now, though
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1123 2014-04-22 13:57:33 <sturles> Luke-Jr: Yes, if you use sendtoaddress instead of sendfrom, so I don't.
1124 2014-04-22 13:57:34 <wumpus> it's certainly possible if you run SPV wallets against one bitcoind process
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1126 2014-04-22 13:57:41 <wumpus> but not with the bitcoin core wallet...
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1128 2014-04-22 13:57:48 <sturles> sipa: Yesm I know that.
1129 2014-04-22 13:58:07 <sipa> sturles: i don't understand
1130 2014-04-22 13:58:10 <Luke-Jr> sipa: he's talking about a high-level view.
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1132 2014-04-22 13:58:21 <Luke-Jr> sipa: his coins aren't UTXOs, just bitcoin quantities
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1134 2014-04-22 13:58:28 <chairman_meow> has there ever been stolen bitcoins but were reversed by the devs via a hard fork on the block chain?
1135 2014-04-22 13:58:34 <wumpus> chairman_meow: no
1136 2014-04-22 13:58:38 <sturles> sipa: The purpose is not to avoid using the actual output, just to make sure I have the coins in reserve.
1137 2014-04-22 13:58:42 <Luke-Jr> chairman_meow: sortof, but not really
1138 2014-04-22 13:59:02 <Luke-Jr> chairman_meow: closest was https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/CVEs#CVE-2010-5139
1139 2014-04-22 13:59:25 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: that's a strange definition of 'stolen'
1140 2014-04-22 13:59:29 <sipa> chairman_meow: doing so would require cooperation of at least a majority of mining power
1141 2014-04-22 13:59:31 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: hence "not really" :D
1142 2014-04-22 13:59:55 <sipa> chairman_meow: and if it's returning funds without rolling back the entire blockchain, it would require cooperation of *everyone*
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1144 2014-04-22 14:00:21 <Luke-Jr> [13:57:24] <sipa> chairman_meow: doing so would require cooperation of at least a majority of mining power <-- and that mining power accepting a huge loss of their own income..
1145 2014-04-22 14:00:21 <sipa> (and i hope that such a thing would be so controversial that it's impossible to convince 100%)
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1188 2014-04-22 14:56:45 <BlueMatt> cdecker: pong
1189 2014-04-22 14:56:56 <cdecker> Hi BlueMatt
1190 2014-04-22 14:57:11 <cdecker> Just noticed your DNS seed isn't doing so well
1191 2014-04-22 14:58:22 <BlueMatt> hmm, willfix
1192 2014-04-22 14:58:48 <cdecker> Just thought I'd mention it since I still haven't implemented automatic notifications
1193 2014-04-22 14:58:49 <cdecker> :D
1194 2014-04-22 14:59:36 <BlueMatt> thanks
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1212 2014-04-22 15:11:10 <gpmnlxdw> hi Guys, sorry to ask for help again .....
1213 2014-04-22 15:11:12 <gpmnlxdw> bitcoind decoderawtransaction 77794362d66918f7b6b7d949e4e04f8e2de3809eb3a2a32afc114c5560015c59
1214 2014-04-22 15:11:13 <gpmnlxdw> error: {"code":-22,"message":"TX decode failed"}
1215 2014-04-22 15:11:33 <gpmnlxdw> but I promise I have tested it several days before in my pc
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1217 2014-04-22 15:12:03 <sipa> that is certainly not a valid transaction
1218 2014-04-22 15:12:04 Subo1977_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1219 2014-04-22 15:12:20 <gpmnlxdw> https://blockchain.info/tx/77794362d66918f7b6b7d949e4e04f8e2de3809eb3a2a32afc114c5560015c59
1220 2014-04-22 15:12:26 <gpmnlxdw> here I can see it
1221 2014-04-22 15:12:35 <cdecker> Was just about to post the link myself
1222 2014-04-22 15:12:35 <sipa> that is a transaction id
1223 2014-04-22 15:12:38 <sipa> not a transaction
1224 2014-04-22 15:12:41 <cdecker> Ah right :D
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1226 2014-04-22 15:13:28 <gpmnlxdw> ok, I see .... I'd check my code now
1227 2014-04-22 15:14:04 <gpmnlxdw> so wired, I did not change any piece of related code in recent days
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1247 2014-04-22 15:32:50 <gpmnlxdw> it is because this command failed: bitcoind getrawtransaction 77794362d66918f7b6b7d949e4e04f8e2de3809eb3a2a32afc114c5560015c59
1248 2014-04-22 15:32:50 <gpmnlxdw> error: {"code":-5,"message":"No information available about transaction"}
1249 2014-04-22 15:33:04 ericmuyser has joined
1250 2014-04-22 15:33:07 <gpmnlxdw> is it because my bitcoin.conf do not have txindex=1?
1251 2014-04-22 15:33:20 t7 has quit (Quit: home)
1252 2014-04-22 15:36:10 <sipa> yes
1253 2014-04-22 15:36:44 <gpmnlxdw> I'm using bitcoind -daemon, and I have set txindex=1 in bitcoin.conf
1254 2014-04-22 15:37:22 <gpmnlxdw> is there anything need to do to change from bitcoin-qt to bitcoind?
1255 2014-04-22 15:37:39 <sipa> no
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1263 2014-04-22 15:43:16 <gpmnlxdw> maybe it is because I disabled 8332 port in iptables .....
1264 2014-04-22 15:43:29 <gpmnlxdw> only 8332 required, is it?
1265 2014-04-22 15:43:50 <sipa> 332 for RPC, 8333 for P2P
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1267 2014-04-22 15:44:24 <gpmnlxdw> 8332, right?
1268 2014-04-22 15:44:40 <gpmnlxdw> 8332 rpc , 8333 p2p
1269 2014-04-22 15:44:44 <gpmnlxdw> right？
1270 2014-04-22 15:45:10 <gpmnlxdw> ok, I get it by netstat -nap, thanks !
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1279 2014-04-22 16:04:05 <gpmnlxdw> reindexing .....
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1322 2014-04-22 16:58:12 <giustoXricordarl> imparami sto ballo per la prossima sett. http://youtu.be/RjG-podqbl8
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1330 2014-04-22 17:06:34 <maaku> sipa: should I move CompressAmount and DecompressAmount into util.cpp if CCompressedMoney will be using them too?
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1387 2014-04-22 18:12:41 <sipa> maaku: i would move them into CCompressedMoney, and only use CCompressedMoney (but maybe not immediately)
1388 2014-04-22 18:13:57 <maaku> ah of course
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1405 2014-04-22 18:35:12 <fedora-newbie_> Hello
1406 2014-04-22 18:35:13 adam3us1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1407 2014-04-22 18:35:23 <fedora-newbie_> Anyone knows if I can run any wallet on Fedora systems?
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1413 2014-04-22 18:41:30 <Ry4an> wrong channel.  User help goes in #bitcoin.
1414 2014-04-22 18:42:07 chichov has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1415 2014-04-22 18:42:08 <fedora-newbie_> thanks (:
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1450 2014-04-22 19:30:51 <Newyorkadam> hey, does anyone here experienced with the blockchain?
1451 2014-04-22 19:31:00 <Newyorkadam> is my thinking correct here?
1452 2014-04-22 19:31:01 <Newyorkadam> Think about it — probably about .1% (or 1/1000) of people in the world use bitcoin. In just 3 years, the blockchain is already at 16 gigabytes and takes a week to load (approximations). Now, that means every year, 5.33 gigabytes and 2.3 days of waiting time are added. But that's if just .1% of people; imagine if 50% of the population were using it. That would mean 500 times as many people would be making transactions, so
1453 2014-04-22 19:31:02 <Newyorkadam> that's 2665 gigabytes per day and 1,150 days of waiting time added per day.
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1455 2014-04-22 19:31:55 <maaku> Newyorkadam: (a) there are software-enforced scaling limits, (b) current bitcoind performance does not reflect theoretically possible
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1457 2014-04-22 19:32:15 <Newyorkadam> maaku: I get a, why b?
1458 2014-04-22 19:32:28 <maaku> Newyorkadam: because bitcoind is not as efficient as it could be?
1459 2014-04-22 19:32:49 <Newyorkadam> ok
1460 2014-04-22 19:32:52 <Newyorkadam> thanks :)
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1463 2014-04-22 19:34:21 <gmaxwell> Newyorkadam: it's really rude to multicast these questions in multiple channels.
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1465 2014-04-22 19:34:50 <edcba> yeah that's why things don't scale !
1466 2014-04-22 19:35:21 <gmaxwell> With just the synchronization stalls corrected the current codebase syncs the whole chain in 150 minutes, on a quad core i7 desktop.
1467 2014-04-22 19:35:24 <gmaxwell> FWIW
1468 2014-04-22 19:35:29 <Newyorkadam> sorry
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1471 2014-04-22 19:36:12 <edcba> 150 minutes for 16 GB ?
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1473 2014-04-22 19:36:43 <gmaxwell> edcba: to sync over the network from 0, yes.
1474 2014-04-22 19:37:07 <edcba> ok so bandwidth may be more problematic for most
1475 2014-04-22 19:39:12 <jcorgan> hmm, maybe i have fast machines, my clone-over-GbE only takes 1-1.5 hours
1476 2014-04-22 19:39:33 <jcorgan> but i haven't done that too recently
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1479 2014-04-22 19:45:37 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: I was surprised by how long it took, I started looking for regressions.
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1481 2014-04-22 19:46:00 <gmaxwell> I tried benchmarking again but lost power in the middle of it (blew a breaker, doh)
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1591 2014-04-22 21:20:53 <hearn> yay, more SSL bugs
1592 2014-04-22 21:20:57 <hearn> this time it’s apple’s turn again
1593 2014-04-22 21:21:37 * hearn reconsidering SSL between nodes as a good idea
1594 2014-04-22 21:21:50 <rnicoll> hearn, link?
1595 2014-04-22 21:22:03 <hearn> https://threatpost.com/apple-fixes-serious-ssl-issue-in-osx-and-ios/105631
1596 2014-04-22 21:22:13 * rnicoll is glad that HTTP 2.0 doesn't mandate SSL for security. Okay, it doesn't but damn we fought long to get it made optional.
1597 2014-04-22 21:22:15 <hearn> http://seclists.org/bugtraq/2014/Apr/135
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1599 2014-04-22 21:22:21 <rnicoll> cheers
1600 2014-04-22 21:22:32 <hearn> it doesn’t? SPDY always used to require SSL
1601 2014-04-22 21:22:39 <hearn> what was the rationale behind making it optional? software is hard?
1602 2014-04-22 21:22:48 <sipa> SSL is hard
1603 2014-04-22 21:22:51 <Luke-Jr> hearn: because it should be optional :P
1604 2014-04-22 21:22:57 <hearn> yeah but so is HTTP :)
1605 2014-04-22 21:23:01 <rnicoll> heakins, last time I read the spec, there was a way of opting out, although please don't ask me details right now, there may have been wine
1606 2014-04-22 21:23:06 <Luke-Jr> HTTP is far easier than SPDY :p
1607 2014-04-22 21:23:11 <hearn> one of the other bugs in that patch set is something like, you can terminate a connection before a header line is complete and it’ll still be processed
1608 2014-04-22 21:23:12 <rnicoll> sorry, hearn, not heakins :)
1609 2014-04-22 21:23:25 <hearn> so you can remove security properties from the Set-Cookie line, as they come at the end
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1613 2014-04-22 21:23:48 <Luke-Jr> ew
1614 2014-04-22 21:23:49 <rnicoll> hearn, sipa, I think mostly that if we required SSL blindly, everyone would start using snakeoil certificates, and then people get used to just blindly clicking accept. Also low power applications
1615 2014-04-22 21:24:11 <sipa> also huge attack surface and ugly dependency
1616 2014-04-22 21:24:18 <robonerd> http 2 does not excite me
1617 2014-04-22 21:24:28 <hearn> HTTP is normally implemented in web browsers, which are the definition of huge attack surface :)
1618 2014-04-22 21:24:41 <hearn> also unencrypted data is itself a huge attack surface
1619 2014-04-22 21:24:48 <rnicoll> robonerd, it should be a hell of a lot faster than HTTP, from what they tell me
1620 2014-04-22 21:24:53 <robonerd> your face is an attack surface!
1621 2014-04-22 21:24:57 <sipa> hearn: at least its risks are very well understood :)
1622 2014-04-22 21:25:05 <robonerd> meh, text compression is easy/fast
1623 2014-04-22 21:25:16 <robonerd> binary protocols are 'teh hassle' to debug
1624 2014-04-22 21:25:38 <gmaxwell> rnicoll: HTTP2 does require it, but it only authenticates (requires a certificate) if you https.
1625 2014-04-22 21:25:48 <hearn> ah
1626 2014-04-22 21:25:52 <hearn> that sounds sensible
1627 2014-04-22 21:26:09 <Luke-Jr> "normally" - HTTP is implemented in everything anymore
1628 2014-04-22 21:26:44 <hearn> and http 1.1 won’t stop working. other apps can continue to use it, if they want
1629 2014-04-22 21:26:56 <gmaxwell> It was a major victory against global passive surveillance getting that through too. It's not like people are deploying http on the public internet without https so its not like there is a meaningful attack surface reduction... and indeed, http 1.1 still exists.
1630 2014-04-22 21:26:57 <hearn> though the wisdom of shovelling everything through port 80 has always been questionable
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1632 2014-04-22 21:27:19 <robonerd> the internet as the web, is questionable
1633 2014-04-22 21:27:19 <gmaxwell> hearn: gets through firewalls. :( The internet has been broken for a long time.
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1635 2014-04-22 21:27:27 <robonerd> it's an open standards aol, of sorts
1636 2014-04-22 21:27:53 <rnicoll> hearn, I will state, unequivably, it's not questionable, it's just a terrible idea.
1637 2014-04-22 21:28:11 <gmaxwell> I had to use tor last week to read a PDF... was trying to fetch specs for a part I needed to buy at a surplus store via tethering on my phone, and the pdf kept getting replaced by ads by the ISP.
1638 2014-04-22 21:28:39 <robonerd> omg
1639 2014-04-22 21:28:49 <hearn> if the PDF had been downloaded over port 9876 with SSL, i wonder what would have happened
1640 2014-04-22 21:29:00 <robonerd> that's like trying to order a piece of workout equipment and the telco operator talking dirty to you
1641 2014-04-22 21:29:19 <hearn> the frankencerts paper was interesting
1642 2014-04-22 21:29:33 <hearn> it’s too bad they don’t seem to have open sourced their work
1643 2014-04-22 21:30:07 <gmaxwell> well I'm sure it was a bug that they were totally blocking my document but it was a 'revealing error' as they say,— shows that they're actively intercepting the traffic, which I didn't previously know.
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1647 2014-04-22 21:33:52 <Luke-Jr> [21:26:55] <gmaxwell> rnicoll: HTTP2 does require it, but it only authenticates (requires a certificate) if you https. <-- so, it's encrypted with a session key always, but without https it's totally trivial to MITM?
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1650 2014-04-22 21:34:40 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Yes. Which forces attackers to use a more costly detectable active attack.  HTTPS is still the secure version and HTTP insecure, it's just less completely insecure.
1651 2014-04-22 21:34:52 <Luke-Jr> k, sounds good to me
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1653 2014-04-22 21:35:25 <Luke-Jr> well, except for heartbleed and kin :p
1654 2014-04-22 21:35:38 <hearn> arguably there’s no need/point in waiting for http2 for that. self signed certs + http/1.1 should result in encryption with no padlock icon or https indicator
1655 2014-04-22 21:36:05 <Luke-Jr> hearn: problem is browsers don't try 443/TLS without https
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1657 2014-04-22 21:36:36 <hearn> right, the urls under the hood can still be https, just not shown in the ui
1658 2014-04-22 21:36:58 <hearn> so from the users perspective it’s insecure, but sites can still encrypt with no authentication, if for some reason they want it (not sure many sites do)
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1660 2014-04-22 21:38:11 <hearn> cool. cert transparency support is now integrated into apache trunk
1661 2014-04-22 21:38:24 <gmaxwell> the thing you have to be careful for is that if you actually follow a real https link and the auth fails it shouldn't just silently remove the padlock.
1662 2014-04-22 21:38:55 <gmaxwell> For many years people thinking thats what was being asked for seemed to stop getting encrypt by default deployed.
1663 2014-04-22 21:39:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, then how do you get to a TLS-with-no-CA site at all? :P
1664 2014-04-22 21:40:01 <hearn> gmaxwell: i guess HSTS is good enough to fix that. if you are willing to turn crypto failures into hard failures, it’s easy to opt in
1665 2014-04-22 21:40:21 <gmaxwell> hearn: still have an initilization problem.
1666 2014-04-22 21:40:40 <hearn> that’s true
1667 2014-04-22 21:40:42 <gmaxwell> it should just be negoiated as an accept header or the like, but it isn't. Prior to http2.0 every time those discussions stared somehow it got derailed by a discussion about just hiding the lock icon even when the user loaded a http url. :)
1668 2014-04-22 21:41:01 <Luke-Jr> hearn: HSTS as it is today forces you to honour the CA in question, and doesn't lock out unused-by-the-site CAs :/
1669 2014-04-22 21:41:41 <hearn> well, site operators don’t want to lock themselves into a single CA for very long. you do want some agility there
1670 2014-04-22 21:42:12 <hearn> that’s partly why name constraints haven’t taken off (along with the general stupidity of the spec and its history) - you’d cut a somewhat competitive market down to regional monopolies, more or less
1671 2014-04-22 21:42:13 <Luke-Jr> hearn: I very much do want to see when a site's cert changes for any reason.
1672 2014-04-22 21:42:24 <hearn> well, yes, but you’re special :) cert patrol++ though
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1676 2014-04-22 21:44:52 <Luke-Jr> I suppose it'd give CAs an edge to implicitly blackmail customers into not going to another CA when it comes time to renew
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1679 2014-04-22 21:46:18 <hearn> it’s a tradeoff. fewer possible CA’s reduces exposure but also increases centralisation and the attendant problems
1680 2014-04-22 21:46:37 <gmaxwell> yea, CAs stink and you don't want to pin people to them. OTOH, CA's stink and taking the sum of all other CA risks is lame.
1681 2014-04-22 21:46:41 <hearn> possibly CT in the long run will let us have our cake and eat it by letting you notice corrupted CA’s without being their customer
1682 2014-04-22 21:46:57 <hearn> but this is multiple years away from being usable
1683 2014-04-22 21:47:02 <sipa> CT?
1684 2014-04-22 21:47:20 <hearn> cert transparency
1685 2014-04-22 21:47:27 <gmaxwell> certificate transparency... basically forcing the CA's to create a jamming proof channel where they publish all the certs they create.
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1687 2014-04-22 21:47:44 <Luke-Jr> I like namecoin's solution to just stick the key fingerprint in the resolver
1688 2014-04-22 21:47:53 <gmaxwell> There were some pre-HSTS proposals that I liked a lot more than HSTS, e.g. there was one where you could pin an additional signing key that had to sign your certs... and you could just keep that key offline.
1689 2014-04-22 21:48:11 LjL-Laplet has joined
1690 2014-04-22 21:49:01 <hearn> a la TACK
1691 2014-04-22 21:49:19 <gmaxwell> So then you're not pinning any CA anything, the CA just becomes an introduction method, and you can keep your long lived keys offline.
1692 2014-04-22 21:49:38 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: how does that work if your own key is compromised?
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1695 2014-04-22 21:50:10 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: or if you let your domain expire and someone else buys it? :p
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1697 2014-04-22 21:50:57 <gmaxwell> the long term key would be kept offline, so its much less likely to get compromised, and if it does so sad— you can still replace the online keys... the loss is that the attacker now can forge you but only if he could have forged for you regardless.
1698 2014-04-22 21:51:51 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I think the proposal had a somewhat low maximum lifetime (30 days? or something like that)
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1700 2014-04-22 21:52:22 <Luke-Jr> hm
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1705 2014-04-22 21:57:56 <gmaxwell> warren: did you figure out anything with that testnet fork?
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1758 2014-04-22 22:44:09 <GAit> first transaction on testnet via bitcoinj dev tip with greenaddress p2sh + multisignature a835c2f09fcc9277a2dce90ecec6e13e1b764a8924beedfc570acd56c325a171 yay!
1759 2014-04-22 22:44:38 <hearn> cool!
1760 2014-04-22 22:45:03 <hearn> what part did bitcoinj play though?
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1762 2014-04-22 22:46:05 <GAit> bip32 for instance
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1766 2014-04-22 22:46:45 <GAit> our authentication requires a signature with a key off a random branch of the user master key
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1768 2014-04-22 22:46:57 <GAit> at the moment we are just implementing a simple library and command line client
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1770 2014-04-22 22:48:16 <GAit> 20% done, 80% left to do. I wonder if there's any point looking into multibit given i've been told (didn't review yet) the code is a bit messy and rewritten in large parte in multibit hd (which is not available yet though)
1771 2014-04-22 22:49:22 <GAit> rewritten/refactored
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1791 2014-04-22 23:05:08 <Luke-Jr> GAit: not sure if there's any sane BitcoinJ-based clients right now
1792 2014-04-22 23:05:31 <maaku> Luke-Jr: multibit is not sane?
1793 2014-04-22 23:05:50 <GAit> maaku: i did not review it personally but i didn't hear too well about the code
1794 2014-04-22 23:05:52 <Luke-Jr> maaku: doesn't it reuse addresses?
1795 2014-04-22 23:05:53 <hearn> multibit hd is a big rewrite
1796 2014-04-22 23:06:01 <hearn> actually a new wallet app entirely
1797 2014-04-22 23:06:27 <GAit> Luke-Jr: no, it doesn't reuse addresses but they are not deterministic and some people claim they got the private keys corrupted or missing and is hard to prove if it was a disk fault or what
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1800 2014-04-22 23:06:50 <tommygunner> electrum > multibit
1801 2014-04-22 23:06:52 <Luke-Jr> hm, I think it used to at least
1802 2014-04-22 23:06:53 <GAit> hearn: do you know when it will be around on github? any developer preview insight?
1803 2014-04-22 23:07:13 <hearn> multibit lets you manually add addresses. it does not generate new addresses by itself
1804 2014-04-22 23:07:25 <maaku> tommygunner: I'm sorry, what?
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1806 2014-04-22 23:07:32 <Luke-Jr> hearn: change addresses?
1807 2014-04-22 23:07:37 <hearn> GAit: nope. you’d have to ask them. they are/were waiting for hd wallets in bcj to land. as that’s making progres, perhaps “soon"
1808 2014-04-22 23:07:44 <maaku> tommygunner: electrum is not by any measure "greater than" an actual SPV client
1809 2014-04-22 23:07:48 <hearn> Luke-Jr: does not generate new change addresses either.
1810 2014-04-22 23:08:04 <Luke-Jr> hearn: so it can only send whole coins?
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1812 2014-04-22 23:08:19 <hearn> er, no. it uses change addresses, obviously. it just doesn’t generate a stream of fresh random ones
1813 2014-04-22 23:08:28 <warren> electrum reuses addresses for change, I think
1814 2014-04-22 23:08:47 <hearn> i forgot multibits exact policy. it’s something “odd” because people were importing keys from paper wallets, “withdrawing” part of them and then blaming multibit when they deleted the wallet file and lost all the change
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1816 2014-04-22 23:09:02 <hearn> so what change address it uses depends on whether you imported keys, and things. mbhd won’t allow key import at all, i think
1817 2014-04-22 23:09:23 <sipa> probably a good thing
1818 2014-04-22 23:09:39 <sipa> importing keys is too confusing to most
1819 2014-04-22 23:09:47 <hearn> basically all the user reports of “argh i lost my money with multibit” boil down to something going wrong with key import
1820 2014-04-22 23:10:34 <hearn> i’ve written the hdw code in bcj to allow imported/random keys alongside hd keys, actually, so it’s a shame multibit won’t be using that feature
1821 2014-04-22 23:10:36 <hearn> it’s for seamless upgrade
1822 2014-04-22 23:10:39 <hearn> but i guess other wallets will
1823 2014-04-22 23:10:45 <maaku> sipa: the downside being that it perpetuates and validates the change-is-left-where-you-spent-from myth
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1825 2014-04-22 23:11:03 <maaku> but yes, not losing clueless user's funds is probably better
1826 2014-04-22 23:11:16 <sipa> maaku: i presume mbhd will have change addresses
1827 2014-04-22 23:11:56 <sipa> anyway, i understand the compromise between backups/confusion and privacy
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1829 2014-04-22 23:12:12 <sipa> but with deterministic wallets, you can have both
1830 2014-04-22 23:12:25 <hearn> right
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1841 2014-04-22 23:24:34 <Newyorkadam> ;;seen Q_qu
1842 2014-04-22 23:24:34 <gribble> I have not seen Q_qu.
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