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  43 2014-04-23 01:15:07 <arowser> arowser tinage
  44 2014-04-23 01:15:21 <arowser> arowser tiange
  45 2014-04-23 01:16:21 <arowser> arowser tiange
  46 2014-04-23 01:16:39 fsx_ has joined
  47 2014-04-23 01:16:46 <fsx_> hey everyone
  48 2014-04-23 01:16:51 wallet42 has joined
  49 2014-04-23 01:17:10 <fsx_> im looking forward to a possibility to load 20 wallets at the same time into bitcoind
  50 2014-04-23 01:17:20 <fsx_> any idea how i could archive this change?
  51 2014-04-23 01:17:32 <fsx_> or is there something like this done already?
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  59 2014-04-23 01:28:17 <gmaxwell> fsx_: what are you actually trying to accomplish?
  60 2014-04-23 01:29:18 austinhill has joined
  61 2014-04-23 01:29:31 <fsx_> i want to get multiple wallets maintainable via rpc, without having to run bitcoind multiple times and spend diskspace and bandwidth multiple times
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  64 2014-04-23 01:30:12 <gmaxwell> Where does the 20 come from? why not 200?
  65 2014-04-23 01:30:30 <fsx_> it was just an example, nothing specific
  66 2014-04-23 01:30:47 <gmaxwell> Codeshark had a set of multiwallet patches from a while back that he dropped working on. I'd like to see that work completed.
  67 2014-04-23 01:31:01 <Luke-Jr> +1
  68 2014-04-23 01:31:15 <fsx_> maybe there is a way in doing so
  69 2014-04-23 01:31:30 <fsx_> im a c++ developer but havent done anything with bitcoind yet
  70 2014-04-23 01:31:40 chainey has joined
  71 2014-04-23 01:31:44 <fsx_> so maybe now i have a reason to do so :)
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  74 2014-04-23 01:33:59 <warren> his patch allowed simultaneous use?
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  77 2014-04-23 01:34:23 <fsx_> this multiwallet would help to archieve something like an bitcoin bank, even if i dont plan to do such things
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  79 2014-04-23 01:36:44 <Luke-Jr> fsx_: a bitcoin bank shouldn't have multiple wallets
  80 2014-04-23 01:36:55 <Luke-Jr> not in that form anyhow
  81 2014-04-23 01:37:09 <fsx_> why not?
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  83 2014-04-23 01:37:56 <Luke-Jr> because it's unnecessary and bad for security
  84 2014-04-23 01:38:17 <fsx_> not sure why this is bad for security
  85 2014-04-23 01:38:34 <fsx_> if the master wallet is stolen, the whole bank is bankrupt
  86 2014-04-23 01:38:42 <fsx_> nice security
  87 2014-04-23 01:38:43 <fsx_> :D
  88 2014-04-23 01:39:06 <Luke-Jr> …
  89 2014-04-23 01:39:24 <fsx_> the only bad thing about that is, that you cant see all transactions of the bank at once
  90 2014-04-23 01:39:25 <Luke-Jr> because you're *more likely* to have *all* the wallets stolen
  91 2014-04-23 01:40:05 <fsx_> but a bank has normally multiple people working with the money
  92 2014-04-23 01:40:22 <fsx_> and you dont want to give all of them access about all the money the bank owns
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  94 2014-04-23 01:41:13 <Luke-Jr> best security practices for bitcoin mean that no one person has access to the money
  95 2014-04-23 01:41:52 <arowser> Hi, the issue "Build errors with GCC 4.7" https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1116 have been fixed before 2011, but I still got that in master branch, My build env: ubuntu 12.04 gcc 4.7.3 boost 1.48
  96 2014-04-23 01:41:57 <fsx_> then i could give a f... about banks and avoid them..
  97 2014-04-23 01:42:43 <fsx_> whatever
  98 2014-04-23 01:42:56 <fsx_> thats not part of my question and doesnt need to be discussed
  99 2014-04-23 01:43:21 <fsx_> thanks for the answers and i guess i have to implement the multiwallet feature myself
 100 2014-04-23 01:43:27 <fsx_> good night everyone
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 233 2014-04-23 05:14:31 <warren> gmaxwell: no, I left master running overnight, but the server went down today with hardware failure.  I'm hoping you, sipa or wumpus downloaded the tarball before it went down.
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 254 2014-04-23 05:40:49 <arowser> There are some empty lines like https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.h#L244, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/net.cpp#L419, and more. Its seems unnecessary, if we should remove it?
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 266 2014-04-23 05:55:40 <wumpus> arowser: don't bother; you'd help the project a lot more by focusing on fixing one of the zillion actual issues on github
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 288 2014-04-23 06:24:52 <robonerd> hitler in argentina?
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 290 2014-04-23 06:26:30 <wumpus> robonerd: not here please
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 296 2014-04-23 06:38:44 <nell> has anyone here used armory?
 297 2014-04-23 06:38:51 <nell> it's buggy D:
 298 2014-04-23 06:39:10 <nell> when it comes to storing it on an offline liveusb
 299 2014-04-23 06:39:20 <nell> doesn't like ubuntu 12.04
 300 2014-04-23 06:39:24 <nell> 14.04*
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 303 2014-04-23 06:45:46 <_andares> hi, is there any way to restrict the output that an input can be sent to?
 304 2014-04-23 06:50:48 <Emcy> what
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 308 2014-04-23 06:52:52 <_andares> is there a way that the script of an input can determine how it will be spent; e.g. require that tx script match a certain pattern?
 309 2014-04-23 06:53:18 <gmaxwell> _andares: No. Not in Bitcoin today.
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 311 2014-04-23 06:53:38 <gmaxwell> (That kind of functionality results in 'covenants' so its actually potentially a little ecosystem-risky)
 312 2014-04-23 06:53:47 <_andares> what is a covenant?
 313 2014-04-23 06:53:56 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278122.0
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 315 2014-04-23 06:54:45 <_andares> neat, thanks
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 347 2014-04-23 07:33:51 <wumpus> <arowser> Hi, the issue "Build errors with GCC 4.7" https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1116 have been fixed before 2011, but I still got that in master branch, My build env: ubuntu 12.04 gcc 4.7.3 boost 1.48  <- caused by a boost incompatiblity, I've seen it reported more times
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 374 2014-04-23 08:23:31 <soquel> When I try "backupwallet" API call on my testnet bitcoind I get cryptic: error: {"code":-4,"message":"Error: Wallet backup failed!"}  How do I debug this?
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 377 2014-04-23 08:27:37 <sipa> try passing a fully qualified backup file name
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 412 2014-04-23 09:18:41 <warren> gmaxwell: hmm, a new master build from last night allowed it to recover testnet on the main chain
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 414 2014-04-23 09:19:03 <warren> the build from early April completely failed
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 466 2014-04-23 10:55:38 <warren> petertodd: "This is easily fixed too by voting to reallocate funds from any block without proper identification on hand."  eh?  So all miners need permission to receive a subsidy?
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 482 2014-04-23 11:16:01 <lalala> hi! what third party merchant service do you use if you want to develop for mobile?
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 507 2014-04-23 11:35:26 <petertodd> warren: remember that I was actually planning on writing up something very similar to Mike's post 22 days ago...
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 553 2014-04-23 12:19:34 <chichov> what is the "Nulldata" transaction type used for?
 554 2014-04-23 12:20:32 <sipa> link?
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 556 2014-04-23 12:20:47 <petertodd> chichov: oh, you mean op-return?
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 558 2014-04-23 12:20:56 <chichov> petertodd: yep, that one
 559 2014-04-23 12:21:32 <petertodd> chichov: that's to do one of two things: spend all inputs to fees, or publish some data in a transaction
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 561 2014-04-23 12:21:38 <sipa> op_return is an opcode that can be used in a transaction output to make it always fail
 562 2014-04-23 12:22:03 <petertodd> chichov: right, and since it is guaranteed to always fail, it can never be spent, and thus doesn't need to be added to the UTXO set - it can be pruned immediately
 563 2014-04-23 12:22:04 <sipa> that way, it doesn't end up in the utxo set (as it can be marked "spent" immediately, nobody can spend it anyway afterwards)
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 567 2014-04-23 12:22:32 <chichov> was the utxo set the database of unspent transactions?
 568 2014-04-23 12:22:37 <petertodd> chichov: yup
 569 2014-04-23 12:22:57 <sipa> well, the utxo set is just the set of all unspent transaction outputs
 570 2014-04-23 12:23:06 <sipa> the reference client keeps this indeed in a database
 571 2014-04-23 12:23:27 <sipa> (soory for nitpick on abstract concept vs implementation)
 572 2014-04-23 12:23:43 <chichov> that's fine, I like to be precise
 573 2014-04-23 12:24:19 <chichov> I'm still struggling with the motivation
 574 2014-04-23 12:24:28 <sipa> for OP_RETURN?
 575 2014-04-23 12:24:45 <chichov> why would someone want to create a transaction spending all his money on fees?
 576 2014-04-23 12:25:03 <petertodd> chichov: to get rid of dust is one example
 577 2014-04-23 12:25:51 <chichov> I also see a template of OP_RETURN OP_SMALLDATA
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 579 2014-04-23 12:26:10 <sipa> people seem to have an unsatiable need for putting data in the blockchain, and tend to do so via ways that result in it ending up in the UTXO set too (which is way more performance critical, and not limited in growth like the blockchain is)... op_return is like giving drug addicts a clean needle, so it causes just a bit less damage
 580 2014-04-23 12:26:14 <petertodd> chichov: right, the second form is if you want to publish data
 581 2014-04-23 12:26:24 <petertodd> chichov: which gets into a very complex topic...
 582 2014-04-23 12:26:59 <chichov> petertodd: that's a topic I'm extensively working on right now, so I'm open to anything you know
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 584 2014-04-23 12:28:20 <sipa> chichov: what are you trying to do?
 585 2014-04-23 12:28:50 <chichov> sipa: to understand how data can be published in the bitcoin join without making it too messy
 586 2014-04-23 12:29:13 <petertodd> chichov: I'm a little biased for obvious reasons, but I recommend people trying to understand that stuff read this first: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg03307.html
 587 2014-04-23 12:29:16 <sipa> imho, all data publishing in the blockchain is abuse, but that's a controversial opinion
 588 2014-04-23 12:29:17 <chichov> bitcoin chain* bleh
 589 2014-04-23 12:29:48 <sipa> chichov: what do you need it for?
 590 2014-04-23 12:30:12 <sipa> (for many cases where people want it, there are better alternatives)
 591 2014-04-23 12:31:18 <chichov> sipa: I'm working on a theoretical idea of using the blockchain for anti-censorship messaging
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 593 2014-04-23 12:32:46 <chichov> I understand that this is a rather controversial topic to many bitcoin purists
 594 2014-04-23 12:32:50 <hearn> chichov: spending all money to fees has utility in various proof of sacrifice protocols, and other exotica
 595 2014-04-23 12:33:12 <hearn> chichov: people have tried it before. i think they are likely to be disappointed in the long run, especially once chain pruning starts
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 597 2014-04-23 12:33:42 <petertodd> chichov: that's a very good application actually, regardless of what purists think
 598 2014-04-23 12:34:04 <chichov> petertodd: yea, it's the topic for my thesis
 599 2014-04-23 12:34:21 <petertodd> chichov: basically when you think about it, bitcoin provides a way to spend money to provably publish a transaction to a well-defined audience - the hashing power who mine
 600 2014-04-23 12:34:33 <chichov> petertodd: the idea is that there is strong censorship in many countries, e.g. china, where bitcoin is still allowed
 601 2014-04-23 12:35:06 <petertodd> chichov: yup, and I think part of what makes people so uncomfortable about the fact that you can use the blockchain for publication is that it'll likely lead to censorship of bitcoin on that basis
 602 2014-04-23 12:35:27 <chichov> petertodd: binding a message to bitcoin would force a government to work against bitcoin aswell
 603 2014-04-23 12:35:40 <petertodd> chichov: indeed - it's an "all the eggs in one basket" scenario
 604 2014-04-23 12:35:45 <petertodd> but this belongs in #bitcoin-wizards
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 606 2014-04-23 12:36:13 <chichov> alright, lets not diverge too far then
 607 2014-04-23 12:36:28 <chichov> could you elaborate on chain pruning?
 608 2014-04-23 12:36:46 <chichov> I haven't had the opportunity to read about it yet, do you have any resources by any chance?
 609 2014-04-23 12:37:04 <petertodd> chichov: so basically the UTXO set is a subset of all possible blockchain data - modulo reorganizations you only need unspent transactions to fully verify going forward
 610 2014-04-23 12:37:51 <chichov> exactly, else you'd go through the unnecessary work of constant look-ups through the complete chain
 611 2014-04-23 12:38:07 <petertodd> ?
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 613 2014-04-23 12:38:36 <chichov> well, without a set of unspent transaction, how else would you verify a transaction?
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 615 2014-04-23 12:39:14 <chichov> for each transaction input you'd have to go through the blockchain and look for the transaction output in question
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 617 2014-04-23 12:39:44 <chichov> and it is my understanding that a simple set of unspent transaction is kept to keep it efficient
 618 2014-04-23 12:39:47 <petertodd> ah, right, yeah, so right now all nodes have a UTXO data base, and *also* store all blocks, even though they don't use those blocks to actually verify new transactions
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 621 2014-04-23 12:40:38 <chichov> and where does pruning come into play?
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 623 2014-04-23 12:41:39 <petertodd> pruning is where the node throws away some or (almost) all of those blocks, which means it can't serve up prior blocks to other nodes
 624 2014-04-23 12:42:12 <petertodd> problem is if you want to sync your node up in a trust free manner, you have to have all those blocks to validate the blockchain history (at least currently)
 625 2014-04-23 12:43:12 <chichov> indeed, you have to compute the UTXO set bottom-up from the raw blockchain
 626 2014-04-23 12:44:23 <chichov> so, in the coming future, nodes will start discarding most (or the complete?) blockchain?
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 629 2014-04-23 12:45:36 <petertodd> probably, but that does raise a *lot* of issues
 630 2014-04-23 12:46:06 <petertodd> re: censorship what's interesting is that pruning doesn't change the usecase of using the blockchain to publish censored data - pruning can only happen after the data has been published
 631 2014-04-23 12:47:22 <chichov> how will new nodes build up the UTXO set if nodes start discarding their blockchain?
 632 2014-04-23 12:48:04 <petertodd> one option is they just trust someone else's copy is valid, other options are with things like UTXO/TXO commitments
 633 2014-04-23 12:49:41 <chichov> do you have any resources on UTXO/TXO commitments?
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 635 2014-04-23 12:49:52 <chichov> I'm not aware of this construct and would like to read up on it
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 637 2014-04-23 12:51:10 <drizztbsd> hi, why is multibit the suggested wallet (https://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet) and not electrum?
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 639 2014-04-23 12:51:41 <drizztbsd> multibit has the retarted "feature" to do not allow zero-fee
 640 2014-04-23 12:51:45 <petertodd> chichov: http://utxo.tumblr.com/
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 642 2014-04-23 12:53:07 <chichov> petertodd: one more question - I don't see OP_SMALLDATA anywhere in the Script-wiki description. Are there any other resources where I can read up on how to use it?
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 644 2014-04-23 12:53:45 <petertodd> chichov: here's some example tx's using it http://webbtc.com/scripts/op_return
 645 2014-04-23 12:54:18 <petertodd> chichov: I can send you a quick timestamping app with it that I wrote for the python-bitcoinlib library
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 647 2014-04-23 12:54:47 <hearn> chichov: the idea is that if you’re stuffing data into blocks, eventually most nodes will throw it away and the ones that don’t might charge for it
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 649 2014-04-23 12:55:13 <chichov> petertodd: I'd gladly take a look
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 651 2014-04-23 12:55:17 <hearn> chichov: if you put data into the UTXO set then that doesn’t apply, but everyone is incentivised to not let you do that as it hurts bitcoin overall. if your outputs can be identified in any way, and proved to be unspendable, they might also be deleted
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 653 2014-04-23 12:55:26 <hearn> that’s what OP_RETURN is about. making it easy to prove that.
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 655 2014-04-23 12:56:28 <chichov> hearn: indeed, as sipa already said, it's a clean needle
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 657 2014-04-23 12:57:20 <petertodd> chichov: https://github.com/petertodd/python-bitcoinlib/blob/master/examples/timestamp-op-ret.py
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 659 2014-04-23 12:57:46 <petertodd> chichov: you familiar with mastercoin/counterparty, or the term "embedded consensus system"?
 660 2014-04-23 12:57:55 <hearn> chichov: right. theoretically we could schedule an upgrade that deletes a bunch of ASCII art outputs and stuff from the UTXO set, as we know they can never be spent anyway. if you want to go even more extreme then outputs which are both spendable and storing data could also simply be deleted or reallocated. that’d be more controversial as it’d be effectively stealing peoples bitcoins, but if there’s a very strong consensus that sto
 661 2014-04-23 12:57:55 <hearn> the UTXO set is bad for everyone, it’s imaginable
 662 2014-04-23 12:58:16 <hearn> chichov: so these are the issues with storing data in bitcoin. if you want anti-censorship systems, you may wish to look at Tor insted
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 664 2014-04-23 12:58:41 <chichov> petertodd: I'm aware of how consensus is reached in bitcoin, but I haven't heard the term "embedded consensus system"
 665 2014-04-23 12:59:20 <petertodd> chichov: right - read my "disentangling mining" paper I linked a few minutes ago
 666 2014-04-23 12:59:48 <petertodd> chichov: also, note that censoring data in the blockchain is very difficult, perhaps not realisticly possible to implement
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 668 2014-04-23 13:00:47 <chichov> petertodd: how can I find that paper?
 669 2014-04-23 13:01:20 <petertodd> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg03307.html
 670 2014-04-23 13:01:22 agricocb has joined
 671 2014-04-23 13:01:39 <chichov> hearn: that's why I'm trying to find a painless way. OP_RETURN seems promising
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 673 2014-04-23 13:02:00 <chichov> ah yes, this one
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 675 2014-04-23 13:02:38 <petertodd> chichov: on my todo list is actually to write up a general-purpose library that publishes data in the chain via all available methods with as strong censorship resistance as possible
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 677 2014-04-23 13:03:12 <hearn> chichov: it’s not exactly “painless”. nodes still have to store and process your transactions. it reduces the cost somewhat but it’s still not free. what problem exactly are you trying to solve? did you ever look at Freenet
 678 2014-04-23 13:03:23 <hearn> bitcoin wasn’t actually designed for arbitrary file storage. things like Freenet are.
 679 2014-04-23 13:03:28 <chichov> petertodd: this sounds like there is great overlap with my plans
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 681 2014-04-23 13:04:24 <chichov> hearn: it's not about filestorage, it's about publishing messages in countries with strong censorship
 682 2014-04-23 13:04:30 <petertodd> chichov: quite likely! there's also a lot of interesting hybrid things you can do, where, for instance, you use a Freenet-like DHT in the general case, and fall back to the bitcoin blockchain for data publishing if anyone tries to censor the data
 683 2014-04-23 13:06:28 <hearn> chichov: right, but a “message” can be quite long, right? or are videos not messages now :) freenet was designed to solve thi.
 684 2014-04-23 13:06:28 <hearn> *this
 685 2014-04-23 13:06:28 <GAit> hearn: but as long as there is no way to prevent that isn't it better to just assume someone will do it and work against it by pruning? and maybe build some WOT inside SPV?
 686 2014-04-23 13:06:28 <chichov> petertodd: I believe we'll have long discussions on that very soon
 687 2014-04-23 13:06:28 <hearn> chichov: bear in mind, bitcoin is very easy for countries to ban entirely. so i’m not sure it’s quite what you are looking for.
 688 2014-04-23 13:06:28 <chichov> hearn: I'll keep your advice in mind and take a look at Freenode as well
 689 2014-04-23 13:06:28 <petertodd> chichov: pure publishing is a particularly good use-case for that kind of hybrid system as usually delaying when things are actually succesfully published doesn't do much harm - quite different than financial applications like mastercoin
 690 2014-04-23 13:06:28 <hearn> freenet :) freenode is this irc network
 691 2014-04-23 13:06:30 <chichov> my bad, freenet
 692 2014-04-23 13:06:31 <hearn> freenet is an old project. accessing “freesites” was very slow because of how it worked, and they couldn’t be interactive. but it tried hard to be censorship proof.
 693 2014-04-23 13:06:47 <hearn> of course it got a lot of flak in the day for hosting child porn sites etc. so you have to be ready for that.
 694 2014-04-23 13:06:56 <petertodd> chichov: keep in mind that non-proof-of-publication tech like Freenet is really easy to sybil attack, and what's worse, you're users will never know. The #1 thing bitcoin does is makes a jam free network where you can *detect* the fact that you are being jammed.
 695 2014-04-23 13:07:10 <chichov> hearn: in principal, the messages are not supposed to be videos
 696 2014-04-23 13:07:12 <petertodd> chichov: Freenet and similar tech just can't do that
 697 2014-04-23 13:07:29 <GAit> petertodd: interesting.
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 699 2014-04-23 13:07:51 <hearn> he’s talking about things like mastercoin.
 700 2014-04-23 13:08:10 <petertodd> chichov: also, re: scalability, see http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04388.html
 701 2014-04-23 13:08:54 <chichov> I very much appreciate this discussion, but I have a doctor's appointment shortly and have to leave
 702 2014-04-23 13:09:13 <petertodd> chichov: np, looking forward to chatting
 703 2014-04-23 13:09:13 <hearn> good luck!
 704 2014-04-23 13:09:31 <chichov> petertodd: I'll come back to you shortly!
 705 2014-04-23 13:09:53 <chichov> and thanks to you too hearn for your input
 706 2014-04-23 13:10:13 <chichov> see you soon
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 708 2014-04-23 13:10:31 <petertodd> GAit: amiller has a great extension to the idea that makes the PoW function prove the miners actually have some known data, and then uses forward error correcting codes to make censorship of specific parts of that data impractical
 709 2014-04-23 13:10:32 <GAit> hearn: you can show child porn in any piece of data with a onetime pad :)
 710 2014-04-23 13:12:07 <GAit> petertodd: I'll have to read it up
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 712 2014-04-23 13:13:34 <GAit> what i meant with the one time pad remark is that it could be already embedded in the blockchain, perhaps encrypted
 713 2014-04-23 13:13:44 <GAit> or encoded in a weird way
 714 2014-04-23 13:14:12 <petertodd> GAit: indeed, note how Mastercoin coerces it's data to look like valid pubkeys
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 716 2014-04-23 13:15:59 <Luke-Jr> sounds like a bad idea
 717 2014-04-23 13:16:30 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: don't forget to look at things from your opponents perspective
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 720 2014-04-23 13:16:54 <GAit> petertodd: that's a great way to improve i agree
 721 2014-04-23 13:16:55 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: I don't really care what attackers and spammers think
 722 2014-04-23 13:17:01 <Luke-Jr> beyond what is necessary to stop them
 723 2014-04-23 13:20:34 <petertodd> GAit: yeah, right now all MSC tx's include a dust payment to the exodus address too, making them easy to detect, but that can be easily changed in the future to something that a bloom/prefix filter matches probabalistically
 724 2014-04-23 13:20:56 <petertodd> GAit: once that's done blocking it becomes a game of colatteral damage
 725 2014-04-23 13:21:12 <GAit> as you'd ban normal users too
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 729 2014-04-23 13:22:19 <Luke-Jr> GAit: anti-censorship is not a goal of Bitcoin, and is pretty much incompatible with it on a fundamental level
 730 2014-04-23 13:23:01 <petertodd> GAit: exactly. of course you can just try having a centralized/semi-centralized blacklist provider who watches the state of the mastercoin chain and gives miners transactions to blacklist, which gets really interesting with a system like coinbase reallocation/coinbase blacklists that essentially let hashing power vote on what blocks/transactions they want to blacklist
 731 2014-04-23 13:23:16 uiop has joined
 732 2014-04-23 13:23:39 <petertodd> used against transactions it's really ugly for how it incentivizes hashing power to quit small pools and join the big pools with the best-maintained blacklists
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 737 2014-04-23 13:26:36 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: proof-of-publication is an excellent anti-censorship tool for its ability to reliably detect whether or not censorship is happening and respond. secondly forcing an attacker to censor a whole range of applications rather than selective ones is often advantageous
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 753 2014-04-23 13:49:37 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: proof-of-publication is not Bitcoin
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 759 2014-04-23 14:00:58 <GAit> is there any advantage in using a satellite bitcoin node compared to using a couple of vpns/vps to have better network visibility ?
 760 2014-04-23 14:01:00 Vitalik_ has joined
 761 2014-04-23 14:01:45 <GAit> it's a great feat and publicity for bitcoin but not more impressive than internet over sat from a tech point of view
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 769 2014-04-23 14:07:16 <octocodercat> Hi, I'm trying to break down a 'version' message that I got from a local copy of bitcoin-qt as a reference, and I'm having some issues
 770 2014-04-23 14:07:33 <octocodercat> "b6 10" Would be a var_int with a value of 16, correct>
 771 2014-04-23 14:07:36 <octocodercat> *?
 772 2014-04-23 14:07:51 ThomasV has joined
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 774 2014-04-23 14:09:29 <octocodercat> There are six bytes between the nonce and the var_int containing the length of the user agent that seem unaccounted for :/
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 776 2014-04-23 14:09:50 <octocodercat> They are b7 5a b9 7f 6e 0f 36
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 791 2014-04-23 14:26:43 <octocodercat> Am I completely off with where I think the var_int is?
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 795 2014-04-23 14:31:11 <btiefert> GAit, created a one-time pad that combines with past published data does not create a proof of publish, anyway, for the very reason you stated earlier.
 796 2014-04-23 14:31:53 <GAit> i know that, tell that to the public when some stupid media, perhaps the same one that found Dorian comes out with it
 797 2014-04-23 14:31:57 DougieBot5000 has joined
 798 2014-04-23 14:32:08 <btiefert> As a general rule, I try not to waste time stopping stupid.
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 800 2014-04-23 14:32:33 <GAit> sounds like good policy
 801 2014-04-23 14:34:08 <octocodercat> b7 5a b9 7f 6e 0f 36 b6 10 Is this whole thing a var_int?
 802 2014-04-23 14:34:33 <octocodercat> Either it's a var_int with the value of 16, or I am horribly confused
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 811 2014-04-23 14:46:52 <ThickAsThieves> i'd like to put a nose in my nose to prevent me from having to smell things i dont like
 812 2014-04-23 14:47:39 <GAit> proxy nose
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 814 2014-04-23 14:48:52 <ThickAsThieves> I was told hearn could help me with this
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 843 2014-04-23 15:13:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|hearn: around?
 844 2014-04-23 15:13:20 <hearn> hi
 845 2014-04-23 15:13:27 <hearn> for a little while. need to head out for a bit soon
 846 2014-04-23 15:13:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|> The idea of discouraging blocks that perform Finney attacks by having honest > miners refuse to build on them has been proposed. But it has a couple of > problems:
 847 2014-04-23 15:13:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|> Miners who want to vote "no" on a block take a big risk, they could be on > the losing side of the fork and end up wasting their work.
 848 2014-04-23 15:13:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Arguably, that's how it should be.
 849 2014-04-23 15:14:46 <hearn> why
 850 2014-04-23 15:14:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Something like voting to seize $,,(calc [tlast] * 25) from someone should be expensive
 851 2014-04-23 15:14:50 <gribble> 12183.25
 852 2014-04-23 15:14:53 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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 854 2014-04-23 15:14:59 <hearn> why
 855 2014-04-23 15:15:00 bbrian has joined
 856 2014-04-23 15:15:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...
 857 2014-04-23 15:15:35 <hearn> do you think people should be charged $10k to vote in regular elections? you can’t simply assert that voting should be expensive and assume that’s obvious
 858 2014-04-23 15:15:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Uh?
 859 2014-04-23 15:16:04 <GAit> wouldn't that proposal cause miner mafia?
 860 2014-04-23 15:16:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Voting to *take $10k away from someone* should be expensive
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 863 2014-04-23 15:17:00 <hearn> you’re simply repeating yourself. justify it.
 864 2014-04-23 15:17:12 <hearn> remember our goal here - stop double spending as effectively as possible
 865 2014-04-23 15:17:29 <hearn> forcing miner majorities to perform giant reorgs stops double spends, but it isn’t as effective as possible
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 867 2014-04-23 15:18:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes, but giving the majority of miners the ability to arbitrarily decide to take away someone's $10k with no cost or risk to do so?
 868 2014-04-23 15:18:30 <GAit> imho a double spend is less important for the greater good than the solution if it involves some corruptable mechanism to do reorgs
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 871 2014-04-23 15:19:12 <hearn> michagogo|cloud: again, you are just repeating yourself endlessly. justify your position. don’t just rephrase “but whaaa” over and over and call it an argument ;)
 872 2014-04-23 15:20:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|hearn: If a couple big miners decide they don't like catholics, they can decide to start setting the "vote to seize" flag for all of Eligius's blocks
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 874 2014-04-23 15:20:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes, this is something that could be done right now by rejecting it
 875 2014-04-23 15:20:58 <hearn> they could also re-org them out. if they know they have a majority via some other mechanism, why not? the solution to that is to have lots of miners, not stick our head in the ground and pretend it can’t happen. remember that a successful 51% attack is “free” for the attackers
 876 2014-04-23 15:21:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But it's risky
 877 2014-04-23 15:21:14 <hearn> if you’re worried about abusive miner cartels, work on p2pool or some other decentralisation project
 878 2014-04-23 15:21:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes, it's "free" for the attackers, iff it's successful
 879 2014-04-23 15:21:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|As long as they don't get unlucky, they can reorg away the block
 880 2014-04-23 15:22:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But if they do, they've lost a lot of money
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 885 2014-04-23 15:22:19 <hearn> if they do what? if they do reorg their target block away they lost nothing. they get all the fees and rewards as per normal
 886 2014-04-23 15:22:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|This would make it completely free for them no matter what
 887 2014-04-23 15:22:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If they do get unlucky
 888 2014-04-23 15:22:39 <hearn> if they have a majority they can keep mining and eventually succeed
 889 2014-04-23 15:23:13 <hearn> the more they have the faster that happens, but if they dominate the network then eventually they will overtake it barring some astonishingly unlikely run of bad luck that means their equipment all dies before they win, or something
 890 2014-04-23 15:23:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...while putting even more on the line with each block, in the event that they fail
 891 2014-04-23 15:23:28 <hearn> the solution is the same as always - don’t have abusive miner cartels.
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 893 2014-04-23 15:23:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If they're a narrow majority
 894 2014-04-23 15:24:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|*maybe* if you require a supermajority
 895 2014-04-23 15:24:28 <GAit> saying we should not have drug cartels (or miners) is not enough to stop them from happening. I'm afraid of the incentives and the barrier to entry for small miners.
 896 2014-04-23 15:24:35 mortale has joined
 897 2014-04-23 15:24:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|anyway, g2g -- my grandfather's leaving tonight and we're going out to dinner
 898 2014-04-23 15:24:53 <hearn> enjoy!
 899 2014-04-23 15:24:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|thanks
 900 2014-04-23 15:25:05 <hearn> actually i have to go too
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 911 2014-04-23 15:38:46 <ThickAsThieves> <hearn> remember our goal here - stop double spending as effectively as possible /// a goal already pondered when designing bitcoin, no?
 912 2014-04-23 15:40:22 <AndyOfiesh> I'm contructing an educational bitcoin treasure hunt, and I'm wondering if I gave you the private keys for an m-of-n P2SH/MultiSig txout how hard would it be to spend the txout with just bitcoind?
 913 2014-04-23 15:40:35 <AndyOfiesh> How high can I go with m and n, before it doesn't work?
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 915 2014-04-23 15:41:06 <shesek> AndyOfiesh, if you're using p2sh, its up to 15 total public keys (assuming they're compressed)
 916 2014-04-23 15:41:21 <shesek> and spending with bitcoind's jsonrpc api is not that hard, but requires some understanding
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 919 2014-04-23 15:43:52 <AndyOfiesh> I'm trying to  "require some understanding" while limiting the amount of PITA
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 950 2014-04-23 16:11:04 <maaku> hearn: out-of-band consensus rules. seriously?
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 956 2014-04-23 16:16:49 <hearn> maaku: seriously
 957 2014-04-23 16:16:55 <hearn> (or not, depending on how you define “band")
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 959 2014-04-23 16:17:29 <maaku> if the block chain no longer defines what is valid, it's out of band
 960 2014-04-23 16:18:06 <hearn> the block chain does define what is valid
 961 2014-04-23 16:18:12 <hearn> where did i suggest otherwise?
 962 2014-04-23 16:19:17 <maaku> hearn: when you suggested that looking at the block chain history was not sufficient to determine if the next block is valid
 963 2014-04-23 16:19:26 <hearn> i did not suggest that
 964 2014-04-23 16:19:46 <maaku> if the coinbase amounts are adjusted downward, that invalidates transactions which spend their full amount
 965 2014-04-23 16:20:09 <maaku> have you considered this mechanism can be used to extend control to user transactions, by means of coinbase censorship
 966 2014-04-23 16:21:07 <maaku> whatever this out of band mechnism is had better be damn secure and perfectly incentive compatible
 967 2014-04-23 16:21:13 <petertodd> maaku: +1
 968 2014-04-23 16:21:37 <petertodd> maaku: better yet, just make it a soft-forked share-chain like p2pool has, but with rules to enforce it
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 970 2014-04-23 16:23:01 <hearn> maaku: did you read my email? i said specifically quorum had to be reached within the maturity period (100 blocks currently)
 971 2014-04-23 16:23:14 <hearn> maaku: so your criticism is incorrect. there is no chance of invalidating transactions.
 972 2014-04-23 16:23:20 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: regardless of whether or not proof-of-publication was meant to be something Bitcoin would provide, the fact is that it does provide that mechanism
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 974 2014-04-23 16:23:55 <petertodd> hearn: obviously you use the coinbase censorship to threaten other miners into adopting your chosen blacklists
 975 2014-04-23 16:24:14 <maaku> hearn: uh, no. that doesn't address the issue at all. by design you have to pay attention to and respect this out-of-band voting mechanism
 976 2014-04-23 16:24:41 <hearn> the idea is the votes are in the coinbase scriptSigs, same as existing votes. perhaps i did not make that clear.
 977 2014-04-23 16:24:44 <maaku> this is a forking vs policy distinction
 978 2014-04-23 16:25:01 <hearn> so it’d be a network rule. whether a coinbase survives into maturity could be calculated entirely from chain data.
 979 2014-04-23 16:27:22 <petertodd> which is irrelevant to the problem of how it's a network rule designed to make it much easier for a slim majority to censor a minority
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 982 2014-04-23 16:28:39 <hearn> you should take that argument up with satoshi
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 984 2014-04-23 16:29:08 <petertodd> I about bitcoin the system, not satoshi the figurehead
 985 2014-04-23 16:29:15 <petertodd> *I care about
 986 2014-04-23 16:29:28 <hearn> figurehead? nice
 987 2014-04-23 16:30:05 <petertodd> stick to discussion about software and how it works
 988 2014-04-23 16:30:23 <hearn> my point is that bitcoin has always worked that way. if you don’t like it, don’t get upset about it now.
 989 2014-04-23 16:30:51 <petertodd> no, bitcoin has previously worked in the way where attempting to blacklist a block was expensive, and required a reorg, you want to change that
 990 2014-04-23 16:31:13 <petertodd> it also previously worked in a way where double-spending an unconfirmed transaction was actually pretty easy, as I demonstrated
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1007 2014-04-23 16:43:50 <AndyOfiesh> I have been playing with 2-of-3 multisig example TwoOfThree.sh on github, how hard would it be to do the same thing but with P2SH using bitcoind?
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1023 2014-04-23 17:15:43 <bazil5> Why is everyone talking about dark wallet? what can it do you can't do already?
1024 2014-04-23 17:15:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|AndyOfiesh: link to that script?
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1026 2014-04-23 17:16:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BTW, I'm told my bitcoind segfaulted: 17:31:37 <nyuszika7h> .tell michagogo|cloud [1360663.225120] bitcoind[20405]: segfault at 4 ip 00007f462d40a9b6 sp 00007f461affc080 error 4 in bitcoind[7f462d36c000+45b000]
1027 2014-04-23 17:16:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is this something to worry about?
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1036 2014-04-23 17:24:23 <gavinandresen_> michagogo|cloud: if it segfaulted because it ran out of memory: no.  Any other reason: yes.
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1038 2014-04-23 17:24:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gavinandresen_: Is there an easy way to tell?
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1040 2014-04-23 17:25:22 <AndyOfiesh> michagogo see https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/3966071
1041 2014-04-23 17:25:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Nothing in the log, if it helps -- 2014-04-23 14:30:48 connect() to 83.150.81.129:18333 failed after select(): Connection refused
1042 2014-04-23 17:25:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|then the bunch of empty space
1043 2014-04-23 17:25:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And then 2014-04-23 14:57:33 Bitcoin version v0.9.0rc2-183-g513412f-dirty-beta (2014-04-05 13:26:16 +0200)
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1045 2014-04-23 17:26:01 <gavinandresen_> michagogo|cloud: how much memory on your bitcoind machine?
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1047 2014-04-23 17:26:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|One sec, I'll find out
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1052 2014-04-23 17:27:07 <gavinandresen_> michagogo|cloud: … and I should have said "run out of memory" is a 'maybe worry' -- there are fill-up-memory-DoS attacks that we worry about.
1053 2014-04-23 17:27:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|6 GB
1054 2014-04-23 17:27:33 <gavinandresen_> 6GB should be plenty.
1055 2014-04-23 17:28:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Might that happen if it's killed by the system for hitting a limit, or would that look like something else?
1056 2014-04-23 17:29:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(this is a testnet node running on a shared machine where I have a shell, with the permission of the admins)
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1059 2014-04-23 17:29:24 <gavinandresen_> michagogo|cloud: dunno-- you running on Linux?  Any linux experts here know if kill-a-process always writes to syslog?
1060 2014-04-23 17:29:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gavinandresen_: yep, debian iirc
1061 2014-04-23 17:30:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|AndyOfiesh: erm, that gist does use p2sh
1062 2014-04-23 17:30:31 <gavinandresen_> michagogo|cloud: if you can compile yourself --enable-debug and then run under gdb and get a backtrace if it crashes again that'd be helpful.
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1064 2014-04-23 17:31:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gavinandresen_: I updated it to v0.9.1. If the crash happens again anytime soon I'll do that
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1066 2014-04-23 17:32:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(It had been running for a long time)
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1070 2014-04-23 17:37:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/hdAAAyGV
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1072 2014-04-23 17:38:37 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|afk for a bit
1073 2014-04-23 17:39:07 <hearn> gavinandresen: one thing i’d like to do at some point is run bitcoind under a supervisor process (i.e. that forks at startup) which can restart the server if it crashes or goes over a memory limit
1074 2014-04-23 17:39:29 <hearn> gavinandresen: right now if anyone finds a crash bug we’re hosed. if the node immediately restarts upon crashing, it converts it into a much less severe DoS
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1078 2014-04-23 17:40:13 <gmaxwell> hearn: but then also makes a "gives you a local code execution 0.1% of the time, crashes 99.9% of the time" much more severe.
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1080 2014-04-23 17:40:48 <hearn> on platforms that support it the supervisor could sandbox the child, i’d hope
1081 2014-04-23 17:40:54 <hearn> though that ups the complexity a fair bit
1082 2014-04-23 17:41:27 <petertodd> gmaxwell: note too how DDoS attacks can be made much more severe if affected nodes recover rather than crash and stop attacking other nodes
1083 2014-04-23 17:41:40 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I'm not convinced by that.
1084 2014-04-23 17:41:47 <gmaxwell> You also get things like "corrupts memory, mostly crashes, sometimes generates unrecoverable public keys" going undetected.
1085 2014-04-23 17:42:12 <gmaxwell> (which is not just a theoretical problem)
1086 2014-04-23 17:42:13 <petertodd> gmaxwell: wait, I think we're in agreement here :)
1087 2014-04-23 17:42:56 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I think the space of transitive dos attacks that crash witless participating nodes is small enough that I wouldn't rate it as a high priority.
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1089 2014-04-23 17:44:00 <petertodd> gmaxwell: sure, not compared to local code exec, but it is something we've seen in the past
1090 2014-04-23 17:44:59 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I'm not sure where we've seen any that relayed and then crashed. e.g. where coming back up would be bad.  (though the AT&T network wide crash in the early 90s would be an example of that kind of behavior)
1091 2014-04-23 17:45:29 <hearn> i was thinking if there were 3 crashes in quick succession it’d stay down, to avoid infinite crash loops
1092 2014-04-23 17:45:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: mempool flood attacks work that way - that we don't reload mempools after crashes is especially useful there
1093 2014-04-23 17:45:40 <hearn> this stuff is hardly rocket science though. all servers have to deal with this
1094 2014-04-23 17:45:48 <petertodd> gmaxwell: that I've personally seen in experiments
1095 2014-04-23 17:47:06 <gmaxwell> hearn: then I think its pretty easy to just keep everything down, just do your crash three times and they all stay down.
1096 2014-04-23 17:47:52 <hearn> right, during startup is different to post-listening
1097 2014-04-23 17:48:00 <hearn> also there can be crashes that aren’t DoS attacks
1098 2014-04-23 17:51:32 <petertodd> if they're not attacks, they're probably randomly distributed enough that it doesn't matter all that much for the health of the network
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1106 2014-04-23 18:02:00 <lechuga_> probably a dumb question but why is SetBestChain called here only when height % 144 == 0?
1107 2014-04-23 18:02:03 <lechuga_> http://pastebin.com/Ph674J1c
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1112 2014-04-23 18:07:42 <AndyOfiesh> michagogo I see now that it does use P2SH.  Now I'm wondering...Is it possible to not use P2SH? It seems that createmultisig always returns a P2SH address. Correct?
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1114 2014-04-23 18:08:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|AndyOfiesh: yep
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1116 2014-04-23 18:08:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Since there's no such thing as a non-p2sh multisig address
1117 2014-04-23 18:09:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Afaik bitcoind doesn't do non-p2sh multisig
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1119 2014-04-23 18:10:10 <AndyOfiesh> Ah, yes, so using multisig without P2SH means you are sending bitcoin to the actual multisig script so that whole step would be skipped. Makes sense now.
1120 2014-04-23 18:10:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Though it might recognize them as part of the wallet if it has all the keys, and it might sign them in signrawtransaction, but if it does, I'm unaware.
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1123 2014-04-23 18:13:04 <baldur> my debug log is showing return error("Non-canonical public key: compressed nor uncompressed"), is this on my side or something from another node?
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1127 2014-04-23 18:15:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|baldur: did you do anything?
1128 2014-04-23 18:15:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If not, probably from another node
1129 2014-04-23 18:15:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That sounds like a tx IsStandard fail or something
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1144 2014-04-23 18:30:41 <baldur> thanks, found http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/30725525/ which is discussing making signatures strictly DER (as an initial move away from OpenSSL?)
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1156 2014-04-23 18:40:32 <hearn> baldur: as a way to lock down various forms of malleability
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1164 2014-04-23 18:47:27 <GAit> is anyone interested in a techy pint on the 14th before the expo?
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1166 2014-04-23 18:47:50 <GAit> if you manage to get past the coffee shops, that is :D
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1169 2014-04-23 18:50:57 <hearn> i won’t be there until the 15th
1170 2014-04-23 18:51:01 <hearn> but definitely interested in beers!
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1175 2014-04-23 18:51:51 <GAit> hearn:  we may disagree on some stuff but i'm not going to disagree on this
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1178 2014-04-23 18:53:47 <GAit> i have  a feeling this can't be organized before hand, it wiil just be people pouring after the expo into bars and pubs
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1189 2014-04-23 19:05:13 <sipa> GAit: i'll be there the 14th
1190 2014-04-23 19:05:37 <GAit> sipa: dangerous :D
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1196 2014-04-23 19:07:26 <kenrestivo> i'm trying to create a link where people can pay via bitcoin. i'm using the BIP for bitcoin:1XXXXX url's, but the problem is what if they don't have a program installed? i'd like to as a backup link them to a website somewhere instead
1197 2014-04-23 19:07:57 <kenrestivo> this is for android in particular, and i can try/catch for the case where there's no wallet app installed.
1198 2014-04-23 19:08:11 <GAit> kenrestivo: as far as I know you can't even check if there's already a bitcoin: uri handler in a browser
1199 2014-04-23 19:08:22 <GAit> which makes for terrible UI's
1200 2014-04-23 19:08:30 <kenrestivo> right, but i'm not in a browser, i'm in an Intent
1201 2014-04-23 19:08:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|kenrestivo: what do you expect to happen if there isn't a handler?
1202 2014-04-23 19:08:53 <GAit> oh android, sorry i don't know enough to say
1203 2014-04-23 19:09:05 <kenrestivo> i'd like to link them to a website, i.e. coinbase or similar, where they can open an account or otherwise transfer money via some other means (handwave here) to bitcoin
1204 2014-04-23 19:10:25 <kenrestivo> so, imaginging something totally pulled-from-ass, if there were a http://someservice.com/pay/1XXXXXXXXX service, which'd helpfully give people the opporunity to create their own wallet
1205 2014-04-23 19:10:36 saizai has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1206 2014-04-23 19:11:26 <kenrestivo> otherwise, sadly, people will click on these bitcoin:1xxxx links, get a message that there's no app, and then they go away, and say, bleh, i don't know what to do, no way to pay, too bad
1207 2014-04-23 19:11:36 viperhr has joined
1208 2014-04-23 19:12:13 <kenrestivo> apologies if what i'm asking for here is still a few years out in bitcoin's ecosystem development
1209 2014-04-23 19:13:44 <kenrestivo> coinbase has something *almost* there, i.e. https://coinbase.com/api/doc/1.0/buttons/create.html
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1212 2014-04-23 19:15:36 <GAit> kenrestivo: is there no way in android to check if there's an installed handler for an intent? there must be. Then you can see if the list returned is zero just offer some new wallet thing and if not just allow the actual handler to be called.
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1214 2014-04-23 19:16:21 <GAit> kenrestivo: what about queryIntentActivities
1215 2014-04-23 19:16:39 <kenrestivo> right, the "some new wallet thing" is the missing peice: i'd like to basically have an url that will start them down the road to opening their own wallet somewhere
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1217 2014-04-23 19:17:06 <kenrestivo> i know how to check to see if there's a handler. that part's easy (try/catch, in the crudest form).
1218 2014-04-23 19:17:14 <GAit> just send them to /en/choose-your-wallet
1219 2014-04-23 19:17:34 <kenrestivo> with the address already filled in, much like https://coinbase.com/checkouts/4d4b84bbad4508b64b61d372ea394dad
1220 2014-04-23 19:18:25 <kenrestivo> anyways, i'm getting the impression that no such thing exists, so thanks, i'll just leave it as it is
1221 2014-04-23 19:18:36 <GAit> i fear soon someone will say this is not the appropriate channel for the discussion. Anyway, perhaps you can wait until thei 'webview' is closed and then ask the user if they are ready to repeat the previous action (assuming the new wallet just installed a handler for the bitcoin uri:)
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1224 2014-04-23 19:21:31 <kenrestivo> i'm not in a webview, but i guess as a hack i could open one
1225 2014-04-23 19:21:49 <kenrestivo> and then just use the coinbase javascript button stuff.
1226 2014-04-23 19:22:14 <GAit> kenrestivo: in some ways the user will have to open the wallet. If you get a callback when they are done you may have a chance to continue your previous process which i believe is the entire reason of this exercise
1227 2014-04-23 19:22:34 <kenrestivo> it's easier than that, it's just a donation, so i don't even care about the callback
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1229 2014-04-23 19:23:03 <kenrestivo> just trying to make it as frictionless as possible, since if it's a hassle people will just not bother
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1231 2014-04-23 19:23:32 <GAit> callback or stack card, again, i don't know android too well but what i meant is continue what you intended to do in first palce
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1237 2014-04-23 19:29:53 <hearn> kenrestivo: andreas’ app has a small integration library that handles installation of a wallet app for you
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1239 2014-04-23 19:30:04 <hearn> kenrestivo: it automatically checks if an intent handler is available and opens the market if not
1240 2014-04-23 19:30:26 <hearn> kenrestivo: https://code.google.com/p/bitcoin-wallet/wiki/InAppPayments
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1243 2014-04-23 19:31:25 <GAit> hearn: interesting.
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1246 2014-04-23 19:31:47 <hearn> kenrestivo: ideally this sort of thing will appear in the new dev guide at some oint
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1248 2014-04-23 19:32:29 <kenrestivo> hearn: thanks!
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1253 2014-04-23 19:36:22 <kenrestivo> oh, i see, he just redirects to "market://details?id=de.schildbach.wallet" if it's not there
1254 2014-04-23 19:36:32 <hearn> yeah
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1256 2014-04-23 19:36:49 <hearn> i dunno if the play store supports “show me every app that handles intent X”. i had a feeling it could actually but it might be poorly documented
1257 2014-04-23 19:39:07 <hearn> hmmmm
1258 2014-04-23 19:39:12 <hearn> you can do a search for “file:pdf"
1259 2014-04-23 19:39:17 <hearn> i guess that’s a kind of intent filter
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1266 2014-04-23 19:42:03 <kenrestivo> supports bip70 too, if i'm reading this right. nice
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1269 2014-04-23 19:42:55 <kenrestivo> ok, for now i'm going with this as a first approximation then. as things evolve i can always update it later.
1270 2014-04-23 19:43:24 <hearn> cool
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1293 2014-04-23 20:07:05 <hearn> lol
1294 2014-04-23 20:07:06 <hearn> http://engineering.zenpayroll.com/how-ach-works-a-developer-perspective-part-1/
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1301 2014-04-23 20:10:01 <kenrestivo> btw, https://www.refheap.com/79395 compile fails
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1303 2014-04-23 20:10:14 <saizai> blah, crappy connection
1304 2014-04-23 20:10:52 <kenrestivo> compiling bitcoinj take like 2 seconds, but running the tests takes 2 minutes.... and one of them is failing.
1305 2014-04-23 20:10:56 Beef has quit ()
1306 2014-04-23 20:11:12 <kenrestivo> don't have time at the moment to chase it down, but if anyone's interested the paste is above
1307 2014-04-23 20:11:15 <hearn> kenrestivo: there is a #bitcoinj channel. you can do “mvn install -DskipTests"
1308 2014-04-23 20:11:24 <kenrestivo> thk
1309 2014-04-23 20:11:33 <hearn> kenrestivo: which version is that?
1310 2014-04-23 20:11:48 <hearn> this failure is old, iirc. very old. unless it’s flaky and i just forgot, as i never see that, but i remember others reporting
1311 2014-04-23 20:11:50 cybersly has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1312 2014-04-23 20:11:51 <kenrestivo> v0.11.1
1313 2014-04-23 20:12:06 <hearn> kenrestivo: hmm. if you still see it in git master let me know.
1314 2014-04-23 20:12:10 <kenrestivo> i'm trying to build a release version since bitcoinj does not appear to be in maven
1315 2014-04-23 20:12:29 <hearn> it’s in maven central. v0.11.1 is at least. v0.11.2 isn’t there yet
1316 2014-04-23 20:12:38 <Luke-Jr> sipa: is this BIP trying to redefine accounts as some kind of sub-wallet? O.o
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1318 2014-04-23 20:13:03 <hearn> ah ha
1319 2014-04-23 20:13:04 <hearn> https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/issues/detail?id=520
1320 2014-04-23 20:13:19 <hearn> seems like none of us can reproduce it.
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1323 2014-04-23 20:16:51 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that is how bip32 intended them
1324 2014-04-23 20:17:06 <Luke-Jr> sipa: BIP 32 deals with accounts?
1325 2014-04-23 20:17:29 <sipa> what bip32 calls accounts has nothing to do with bitcoind accounts
1326 2014-04-23 20:17:37 <sipa> poor terminology choice probably
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1329 2014-04-23 20:19:11 <hearn> bitcoinj is not implementing accounts, fwiw
1330 2014-04-23 20:19:17 <Luke-Jr> sigh
1331 2014-04-23 20:19:25 Beef has joined
1332 2014-04-23 20:19:58 <Luke-Jr> wait, BIP 32 defines the same things as BIP 64? O.o
1333 2014-04-23 20:20:22 <sipa> bip32 only has a suggested wallet structure
1334 2014-04-23 20:20:37 <sipa> bip64 makes it a requirement
1335 2014-04-23 20:21:29 <hearn> there are reasons i’m not implementing accounts :)
1336 2014-04-23 20:21:31 <hearn> beyond complexity
1337 2014-04-23 20:21:50 <hearn> mainly, the use cases it supports are rather exotic and i am skeptical anyone will use them anytime soon.
1338 2014-04-23 20:22:05 <hearn> instead wallet authors will be tempted to try and use it as subwallets, indeed
1339 2014-04-23 20:22:09 <Luke-Jr> sipa: is there some reason one would want to tie UTXOs to the chain they were received with? so transactions from account "foo" only use UTXOs received with addresses for it?
1340 2014-04-23 20:22:10 <hearn> which have all kinds of nasty UI and API design problems
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1342 2014-04-23 20:22:57 <sipa> the purpose of accounts is exactly to be use them as subwallets
1343 2014-04-23 20:25:20 <hearn> i mean, subwallets for consumers, rather than branches of corporate offices and other things described in the bip
1344 2014-04-23 20:26:37 <sipa> hearn: in the contezt of bip64, would you implement scanning all accounts, but without any UI or API way to keep the coins separate afterwards?
1345 2014-04-23 20:26:48 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1346 2014-04-23 20:27:45 <hearn> ui is up to wallet authors, i just provide the api. attempting to scan all branches would be annoying and i’d rather not, given that it’d not show up anywhere. but if it takes that to be compatible with mytrezor, then maybe it’s worth it.
1347 2014-04-23 20:27:59 <hearn> i think any wallet author that wants to use accounts should not do so, however. there’s just no way to make a rational UI with it
1348 2014-04-23 20:28:09 wallet42 has joined
1349 2014-04-23 20:28:31 <Luke-Jr> sipa: in that case, there's a lack of support for traditional accounts :P
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1351 2014-04-23 20:29:19 <hearn>        
1352 2014-04-23 20:29:59 <sipa> i don't think "traditional" accounts (i presume you mean what bitcoind calls accounts) has much to do or should be integrated at that level
1353 2014-04-23 20:30:30 <sipa> it's just what your database layer associatea receive addresses with
1354 2014-04-23 20:30:54 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it'd be handy if third parties could watch a single chain to see what an account received
1355 2014-04-23 20:31:03 Gyps has quit (Quit: Gyps)
1356 2014-04-23 20:31:12 <Luke-Jr> oh well, probably not worth adding at this late point
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1374 2014-04-23 20:44:26 <warren> I started a fresh sync with master yesterday. for three hours it's been stuck at height=159942 with hundreds of orphans after it ...
1375 2014-04-23 20:45:08 Raziel has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1379 2014-04-23 20:45:21 <Luke-Jr> sipa: actually, without traditional-account support, things like exchanges and online banks *can't* give users their own chain of deposit addresses..?
1380 2014-04-23 20:45:27 Raziel has joined
1381 2014-04-23 20:45:58 <killerstorm> hi. I'm trying to figure out minimal fee to get transaction accepted into a block.
1382 2014-04-23 20:46:49 <killerstorm> I thought that it is just 10000 satoshi per 1000 bytes, but this transaction: 30878171592c8ad47fd897a6bd2040a0e8265995108d3c33736b5afd3ae46fdd was confirmed only 1.5 hours after it was published
1383 2014-04-23 20:46:53 <killerstorm> any idea why?
1384 2014-04-23 20:47:00 <killerstorm> https://blockchain.info/tx/30878171592c8ad47fd897a6bd2040a0e8265995108d3c33736b5afd3ae46fdd
1385 2014-04-23 20:47:15 tonokip has joined
1386 2014-04-23 20:47:32 <killerstorm> I know it looks kinda nasty, but I don't see what rules it violates
1387 2014-04-23 20:47:33 <helo> killerstorm: it just depends on what the miner that solved that block required
1388 2014-04-23 20:47:43 <maaku> killerstorm: priority isn't so simple
1389 2014-04-23 20:48:00 <helo> it's simple if you ignore the hard part :)
1390 2014-04-23 20:48:06 MolokoBox has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1391 2014-04-23 20:48:13 <hearn> dust output?
1392 2014-04-23 20:48:18 <hearn> it’d be nice to have a tx doctor. or just simpler rules
1393 2014-04-23 20:48:19 <helo> "a miner accepted it, nbd"
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1395 2014-04-23 20:48:41 <maaku> hearn: doesn't have dust
1396 2014-04-23 20:48:55 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that's a good use case of bip32 accounts
1397 2014-04-23 20:49:06 <maaku> killerstorm: the fee-per-kb just determines if you get relayed or not
1398 2014-04-23 20:49:07 <sipa> Luke-Jr: where you need somehow the ability to selectively reveal
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1401 2014-04-23 20:49:22 <maaku> to make it in a block you need high priority, and that's linear with fee (and age, and other stuff)
1402 2014-04-23 20:49:30 <Luke-Jr> sipa: but if BIP32 accounts are tied to UTXOs, it inhibits cold storage
1403 2014-04-23 20:49:31 <sipa> Luke-Jr: but that's far from the only one, and there is no requirement that what bitcoind calls accounts be implemented in that way either
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1405 2014-04-23 20:50:05 <maaku> and also,as Luke-Jr will piont out, the realm of miner policy, so you shouldn't rely too much on the reference rules
1406 2014-04-23 20:50:42 <killerstorm> if I remember correctly priority is used only for free transactions, after that they are prioritized by fee-per-kb
1407 2014-04-23 20:51:08 <killerstorm> well I'm just trying to write wallet tx construction code which doesn't overpay, but gets transactions into blocks ASAP
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1411 2014-04-23 20:51:53 <maaku> killerstorm: aren't we all
1412 2014-04-23 20:52:03 <maaku> smart fees is the long-term solution to this
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1414 2014-04-23 20:52:08 <Luke-Jr> killerstorm: define "overpay"
1415 2014-04-23 20:52:22 <robonerd> > $35/hr for C# programmers
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1417 2014-04-23 20:52:36 <sipa> robonerd: not here
1418 2014-04-23 20:52:40 <robonerd> k
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1420 2014-04-23 20:53:03 <maaku> killerstorm: you perform some filter over prior block data to determine what minimum fee is currently required
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1424 2014-04-23 20:53:31 <maaku> it is i think an open question as to what filter works best
1425 2014-04-23 20:53:39 <maaku> and how to make it spv compatible
1426 2014-04-23 20:54:17 <killerstorm> well I see that blocks aren't full yet, and 10000 satoshi per 1000 kb was default for quite a while, so that should be satisfactory, in theory
1427 2014-04-23 20:54:26 <killerstorm> although maybe there is some kind of 0.0001 min fee requirement
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1429 2014-04-23 20:55:13 <maaku> killerstorm: you realize that kb calculation is ceil(bytes/1000), yes?
1430 2014-04-23 20:55:32 <killerstorm> no, why?
1431 2014-04-23 20:56:03 <killerstorm> it is how "bitcoin core" creates transaction, but mining code uses floating-point calculations to sort them
1432 2014-04-23 20:56:08 <maaku> so your linked transaction would have been free
1433 2014-04-23 20:56:17 <maaku> hrm really?
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1435 2014-04-23 20:57:33 <killerstorm> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/miner.cpp#L213
1436 2014-04-23 20:57:38 <sipa> yes
1437 2014-04-23 20:57:42 <maaku> yes i just found it too
1438 2014-04-23 20:58:00 <sipa> it does use cutoff to determine free vs paying
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1440 2014-04-23 20:58:10 <sipa> if your fee is below the minimum, it is considered 0
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