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  76 2014-04-24 01:55:45 <warren> sipa: btw, is it feasible to have secp256k1 (disabled by default) in 0.9.2?
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 103 2014-04-24 02:15:28 <petertodd> killerstorm: fwiw my replace-by-fee code seems to be quite reliable in bumping tx fees to get them into blocks if it's taking awhile; tx pressure is quite real and really does prevent txs from getting mined quickly if you pay absolute minimum for relaying
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 108 2014-04-24 02:25:02 <robonerd> hm
 109 2014-04-24 02:25:14 <robonerd> digitalmagus magus as in magus and fungii?
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 126 2014-04-24 02:51:29 <pZombie> is it possible to lock an address(indefinitely) in such a way, that it would allow only for timed transactions to be declared 7 days (for example) ahead of time? So if i was to run a bitcoin bank, i would be able to see ahead of time which transactions are going to happen in the future, and in case of a hacker doing a transaction, i would be able to clear the hacker transactions.
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 129 2014-04-24 02:53:19 <ThickAsThieves> hearn will make any absurd idea possible if you pay him enough
 130 2014-04-24 02:54:03 <pZombie> i would then be able to issue an emergency transaction which cannot be cleared by either me or the hacker, to a priorly declared cold storage address
 131 2014-04-24 02:54:14 <gmaxwell> pZombie: No, not without some extra infrastructure, but ignoring that — it's not quite clear to me how you'd disambiguate between the hacker and the proper owner, since the hacker has the owners private keys.
 132 2014-04-24 02:54:22 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 133 2014-04-24 02:54:33 <gmaxwell> (and if you have some private keys that are hacker proof, just use those in the first place :) )
 134 2014-04-24 02:55:29 <petertodd> ThickAsThieves: no need to start accusing people of malice
 135 2014-04-24 02:55:39 <pZombie> gmaxwell - correct, both hacker and owner of the hot wallet that requires to issue transactions 7 days in advance can issue transactions. I would see it got hacked by seeing transactions being issued that were not intended. I would then issue the emergency transaction
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 140 2014-04-24 02:56:42 <pZombie> gmaxwell the hacker can also issue the emergency transaction, but that would be a paper wallet i created that never touched the internet. It would not help him at all and the funds would be secured
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 144 2014-04-24 02:57:29 <pZombie> this system would help exchanges that got their hot wallets hacked. It would be inconvenient for the users having to wait 7 days, but that was just an example. Any time delay would help
 145 2014-04-24 02:57:44 <ThickAsThieves> <petertodd> ThickAsThieves: no need to start accusing people of malice  /// such diplomacy
 146 2014-04-24 02:58:03 <ThickAsThieves> petertodd is now my favorite dev
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 148 2014-04-24 02:59:03 <petertodd> pZombie: you can do this right now with nLockTime by putting funds in an offline wallet with a nLockTime'd transaction moving them back to the hot wallet
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 154 2014-04-24 03:01:51 <pZombie> petertodd if a hacker hacks my hot wallet in the meantime, is there any way to prevent the funds from getting stolen once the lock is done?
 155 2014-04-24 03:02:29 <pZombie> because that is not the full functionality i described above
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 159 2014-04-24 03:03:39 <petertodd> pZombie: ah right, I think your best bet there is to just use something off-line and be done with it - an attacker can also hack your computer to restrict your ability to see upcoming transactions you know
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 163 2014-04-24 03:05:02 <pZombie> i won't just have one computer. I will have several computers that keep an eye on the blockchain, and list the 7 days ahead tranactions in a spreadsheet, so i can see which transactions are legit and if there are some non-legit, in which case i would issue the emergency transaction
 164 2014-04-24 03:05:42 <pZombie> the only way a hacker could steal from me if i was able to see all transactions 7 days ahead, as listed in the chain, would be if he had access to my cold storage emergency address
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 166 2014-04-24 03:06:07 <pZombie> which would be close to impossible if i created it offline in a faraday caged computer
 167 2014-04-24 03:06:12 <petertodd> it's a lot easier than you'd expect for an attacker to attack multiple machines; if it isn't, then just use multiple machines to authorize spends w/ multisig
 168 2014-04-24 03:06:25 <petertodd> anyway, short answere is no, bitcoin can't do that :)
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 173 2014-04-24 03:08:44 <pZombie> well, i came here to post this idea, in case it might be possible to have this in the future. Addresses which can issue transactions that will be executed 7 days (or any other priorly declared timeframe) in the future without the ability to switch that off
 174 2014-04-24 03:09:33 <petertodd> a more advanced scripting system could definitely allow that, but who knows if that'll be implemented on bitcoin
 175 2014-04-24 03:09:41 <petertodd> ethereum could definitely do it
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 177 2014-04-24 03:10:52 <coryfields> wumpus: for backlog: I'm headed out of town until ~tues, but when I get back, I'm going to spend some time getting the osx cross build ready for release
 178 2014-04-24 03:10:58 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 179 2014-04-24 03:11:01 <pZombie> I am sure if the devs think it is a good idea, it will be implemented at some point. Bitcoin can and will evolve
 180 2014-04-24 03:11:10 <coryfields> warren once again used his super nagging powers on me :)
 181 2014-04-24 03:11:23 chainey has joined
 182 2014-04-24 03:11:52 <coryfields> wumpus: i'll try to have something ready for testing by the end of next week
 183 2014-04-24 03:11:57 <petertodd> pZombie: it's not that easy; upgrading bitcoin is very hard and risky
 184 2014-04-24 03:12:26 <pZombie> petertodd: sure, but bitcoin also has the best devs working behind it
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 187 2014-04-24 03:16:23 <petertodd> pZombie: when I say very hard, I'm speaking from the perspective of those devs
 188 2014-04-24 03:19:12 <pZombie> petertodd: yes, but i think it is an important feature if it is feasible to implement it. It adds a lot of security. Combined with an exchange that allows for users to lock their payout address, a script could search through the list of pre-determined transactions to happen in X days or even X minutes, and see if any transaction has been issued to an address not listed.
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 190 2014-04-24 03:19:36 <pZombie> Should this be the case, it would clear all transactions and or issue the emergency transaction
 191 2014-04-24 03:19:55 <pZombie> an exchange hot wallet could not be robbed anymore
 192 2014-04-24 03:21:39 <pZombie> even if the whole exchange gets compromised, it could have some "outside" pcs browse the blockchain on different lines, not known to the hacker, which would issue it
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 201 2014-04-24 03:30:48 <pZombie> As for running a bitcoin bank, i would want to split the private addresses (cold storages) into 3 different ( or more ) physical locations in well guarded tresor rooms. I would want to not have to ever access those physical locations. I would want for there being a function which allows for my cold storage wallet to keep filling up my hot wallet periodically with a set amount of coins daily. In the worst case scenario i would have to wa
 202 2014-04-24 03:31:41 <pZombie> in case of my hot wallet getting compromised i would need a function to blacklist my hot wallet address which the cold storage filling it periodically would notice, and would stop
 203 2014-04-24 03:32:32 <pZombie> how else would it be possible to run a bitcoin bank, without having to trust anyone with the private keys, yet if i died, others would need to have access to them still
 204 2014-04-24 03:33:22 <pZombie> if i was the only one with the keys in one location, i could be abducted and blackmailed
 205 2014-04-24 03:33:37 <petertodd> you know about multisig right?
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 208 2014-04-24 03:35:13 <pZombie> petertodd: how would multisig help with automagically filling up the hot wallet periodically, and no one having to access any private keys to fill the hot wallet?
 209 2014-04-24 03:35:45 <petertodd> by spreading out approval of those actions across multiple, independent, actors
 210 2014-04-24 03:36:12 <pZombie> petertodd what happens if some of those actors die in a plane crash?
 211 2014-04-24 03:36:33 <petertodd> I'm consulting for an exchange right now on security; long term everything will be multi-system/party approval with multiple means of authenticating customer intent
 212 2014-04-24 03:37:02 <petertodd> multisig can be done in a n-of-m system, only if everyone dies do you have a problem, and even then providing last ditch backups for stuff like that isn't a big deal
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 217 2014-04-24 03:38:55 <pZombie> can you elaborate on the last ditch backup part?
 218 2014-04-24 03:39:27 <pZombie> what would happen if all parties involved get abducted
 219 2014-04-24 03:39:43 <petertodd> e.g. leave a copy of the seed in a bank vault under the control of the lawyers
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 223 2014-04-24 03:43:42 <pZombie> hm, that could actually work, but i do not feel comfortable knowing how easy the funds could be seized that way
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 226 2014-04-24 03:44:40 <petertodd> yeah, it'll be interesting watching best practices for this stuff develop
 227 2014-04-24 03:44:56 <petertodd> in the meantime, you should accept that bitcoin is to a first approximation fixed in stone :)
 228 2014-04-24 03:51:43 <pZombie> anyway, i just wanted to throw some ideas in. Time for a break. See you guys later
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 234 2014-04-24 04:04:30 <ThickAsThieves> who runs bitundo?
 235 2014-04-24 04:04:35 <ThickAsThieves> hearn, and who else?
 236 2014-04-24 04:05:17 <Emcy> if bitundo is that pay4doublespend thing
 237 2014-04-24 04:05:24 <Emcy> i dont think mike hearn runs that
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 239 2014-04-24 04:08:07 <petertodd> ThickAsThieves: http://www.coindesk.com/double-spending-unconfirmed-transactions-concern-bitcoin/ says Eric Springer
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 241 2014-04-24 04:09:52 <justanotheruser> I like how much denial there was about double spending 0conf tx before someone made a website saying they could double spend for you was made
 242 2014-04-24 04:10:11 <petertodd> indeed, or how I showed you don't even need a fancy website
 243 2014-04-24 04:10:55 <justanotheruser> "Just have well connected nodes" forget about push to pool, that's not possible you dummy!
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 245 2014-04-24 04:12:06 <petertodd> yeah, well, lots of ignorance around there; not many people really understand how bitcoin works
 246 2014-04-24 04:12:10 <ThickAsThieves> “Fact is, unconfirmed transactions aren’t safe.”
 247 2014-04-24 04:12:16 <ThickAsThieves> fukn newsflash!
 248 2014-04-24 04:13:13 <ThickAsThieves> "e says that ideas such as replace-by-fee could solve the possible implications of double spending unconfirmed transactions on-block by enforcing the replacement of an existing transaction only with another that has a higher fee."
 249 2014-04-24 04:13:18 <ThickAsThieves> christ...
 250 2014-04-24 04:13:51 <ThickAsThieves> can we apply this to breathing rights?
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 252 2014-04-24 04:14:02 <petertodd> heh, that article could have been a bit more technical and clear :)
 253 2014-04-24 04:15:18 <ThickAsThieves> i wish bitcoin had a way to confirm transactions to prevent doublespending
 254 2014-04-24 04:15:23 <ThickAsThieves> wtf are we to do?
 255 2014-04-24 04:15:26 <justanotheruser> What is the best option for pos? I was thinking either pay the story X btc, then when you checkout they refund you the leftover amount. You also could make a 2 of 2 tx with a 3rd party the merchant trusts not to doublespend
 256 2014-04-24 04:15:38 <justanotheruser> s/story/store
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 258 2014-04-24 04:17:47 <petertodd> justanotheruser: I expect we'll find that replace-by-fee scorched-earth works pretty well. It doesn't protect you from sybil attacks like real confirmations do however.
 259 2014-04-24 04:18:19 <petertodd> but I gotta finish up my replace-by-fee implementation to actually try that out for real!
 260 2014-04-24 04:18:34 <justanotheruser> petertodd: could you explain how this works?
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 262 2014-04-24 04:20:06 <petertodd> justanotheruser: really simple: I pay you 100mBTC with a transaction paying 1mBTC fee, I double-spend that tx with a 10mBTC fee, sending the funds back to me. You say "Fuck you!" and spend all 100mBTC to fees. Miners are incentivized to mine the "scorched-earth" transaction, so I still lose all the money with high probability, removing the incentive to try to screw you over.
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 265 2014-04-24 04:21:06 <petertodd> e.g. if I'm buying a coffee from you, your marginal lose for the coffee is quite low, and it turns what was profitable fraud into simple vandalism
 266 2014-04-24 04:21:14 <justanotheruser> petertodd: how can I spend the 100mBTC tx if its unconfirmed?
 267 2014-04-24 04:21:44 <petertodd> justanotheruser: you can spend unconfirmed transactions; that just means a miner who includes both in their block gets 100mBTC of fees
 268 2014-04-24 04:22:09 <justanotheruser> Ohh, so its child pays for parent to screw you over?
 269 2014-04-24 04:22:15 <petertodd> exactly!
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 272 2014-04-24 04:22:52 <justanotheruser> Smart. Isn't that vulnerable to Finney attacks?
 273 2014-04-24 04:22:58 <petertodd> it works *really* well for gambling sites, as my possible profit for the double-spend is a small % of the money I'll lose if the scorched earth tx goes through
 274 2014-04-24 04:23:12 <petertodd> justanotheruser: you mean sybil attacks, and absolutely yes it is vulnerable, just like zeroconf is right now
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 276 2014-04-24 04:23:48 <petertodd> justanotheruser: basically every real confirm is very good evidence that you aren't being sybil attacked; any unconfirmed tx just can't give you that guarantee
 277 2014-04-24 04:24:01 <justanotheruser> petertodd: I don't mean finney? Isn't there still incentive for a pool to double spend because they get hash rate*100mBTC of that?
 278 2014-04-24 04:24:29 koolhaas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 279 2014-04-24 04:24:48 <justanotheruser> I mean as an expected value, obviously it isn't consistently hash%*100
 280 2014-04-24 04:25:03 koolhaas has joined
 281 2014-04-24 04:25:13 <petertodd> justanotheruser: well one way to think about it is that replace-by-fee lets you pay someone to do a finney attack, and as it turns out, the merchant being screwed over is the party who can afford to pay the most!
 282 2014-04-24 04:28:25 <justanotheruser> Well the merchant can afford 99mBTC, but if they pay that, then a mining pool has incentive to perform this attack because they get their product plus some fees some of the time right?
 283 2014-04-24 04:29:06 koolhaas has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 284 2014-04-24 04:29:11 <petertodd> ah, yeah, if you're assuming the mining pool is in on it sure, but that's just Yet Another example of why mining centralization is very dangerous - without large mining pools the chance of any one miner finding a block at the right time is really low
 285 2014-04-24 04:30:11 nova907767 has joined
 286 2014-04-24 04:30:39 <justanotheruser> Gregory's UTXO querying PoW isn't SPV-able is it? Because that's the only way I could see mining pool centralization being stopped
 287 2014-04-24 04:30:41 <petertodd> after all, lets be clear, it's *not* perfectly secure, but it does get you to at least the level of security people think zeroconf has right now, but with incentive compatibility. replace-by-fee is also useful for a lot of other applications, e.g. fee bumping, coinjoin, etc.
 288 2014-04-24 04:30:58 dgenr8 has joined
 289 2014-04-24 04:31:35 <petertodd> justanotheruser: nah, it's SPV-compatible: you can include SPV-proofs that the UTXO queried was the right one for instance
 290 2014-04-24 04:32:17 <justanotheruser> How is an SPV client to prove a block header is valid without the UTXO?
 291 2014-04-24 04:32:43 <dgenr8> petertodd: pretty well, unless you care that the money is thrown away to miners and you have to start all over
 292 2014-04-24 04:32:44 <petertodd> well whatever UTXO was queried as part of the mining process is simply proven via a compact merkle path proof
 293 2014-04-24 04:32:48 austinhill has joined
 294 2014-04-24 04:33:37 <justanotheruser> I see. Are there any reasons not to include that in the next hard fork other than temporary network insecurity?
 295 2014-04-24 04:33:37 nova90 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 296 2014-04-24 04:34:09 <petertodd> justanotheruser: it's not even a hard-fork actually; doing it would be a political fight I'm sure
 297 2014-04-24 04:35:17 banghouse has joined
 298 2014-04-24 04:35:32 <petertodd> hmm... come to think of it, the politics of doing that on dogecoin are probably tractable...
 299 2014-04-24 04:36:34 <justanotheruser> petertodd: how would that not be a hard fork? You're changing the PoW
 300 2014-04-24 04:37:27 <petertodd> justanotheruser: no, I'm adding additional conditions to the PoW - blocks valid under the system still look valid to old nodes
 301 2014-04-24 04:38:09 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 302 2014-04-24 04:38:33 <justanotheruser> petertodd: how? Wouldn't the target have to be changed significantly?
 303 2014-04-24 04:38:35 johnsoft has joined
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 305 2014-04-24 04:39:14 <justanotheruser> Wouldnt the transition involve 1month blocks? (If not more)
 306 2014-04-24 04:40:09 banghouse has joined
 307 2014-04-24 04:42:35 <petertodd> nope. So, the rule would still be H(blockheader) < target, but in addition there would be a new rule that, say, forced you to extract a random UTXO derived from the rest of the block such incrementing the extraNonce required a new UTXO extraction
 308 2014-04-24 04:43:05 <gmaxwell> next hard fork? as if there had ever been a prior one?  (what we had with 0.8 vs older version wasn't really a hard fork— old nodes still run fine, they're just non-determinstically unreliable; most important all alternative implementations were wrong wrt 0.7 and the fixing of the database bug made them right)
 309 2014-04-24 04:44:14 go1111111 has joined
 310 2014-04-24 04:45:04 <justanotheruser> petertodd: wouldn't the bottleneck be on CPUs then?
 311 2014-04-24 04:45:40 <justanotheruser> Or hard drives, more generally, non-asic hardware
 312 2014-04-24 04:46:02 <petertodd> justanotheruser: not CPU's, disk storage. Basically you want the PoW to now prove not only that you had access to hashing power, but also some small, but not trivial, amount of IO bandwidth. The idea is the IO bandwidth is still a small part of the total cost of the PoW, but high enough that outsourcing it over a network is infeasible.
 313 2014-04-24 04:47:09 liori has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 314 2014-04-24 04:47:17 koolhaas has joined
 315 2014-04-24 04:47:42 <Belxjander> petertodd: along the order of requiring X amount of IO bandwidth through local means? as a scale difference from memory access? compared to block transfer over a network device with network traffic inconsistencies differentiating the network vs local-storage difference in timing?
 316 2014-04-24 04:48:09 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 318 2014-04-24 04:49:18 <petertodd> Belxjander: so cache->ram->ssd->disk->internet are something like an order of magnitude slower and higher latency each time, so forcing the UTXO set to be held locally without requiring custom hardware for it is quite possible
 319 2014-04-24 04:49:23 <justanotheruser> petertodd: so what is controversial about this?
 320 2014-04-24 04:49:33 splix has joined
 321 2014-04-24 04:49:58 <dgenr8> all the horsing around with scorched earth, fee bump, etc comes to a screeching halt at a random time, when next block is found
 322 2014-04-24 04:49:59 <petertodd> Belxjander: basically one way of looking at it is to make low-latency access to the UTXO set a requirement to mine - speed of light ensures that access is local to the hashing power
 323 2014-04-24 04:50:13 <Belxjander> petertodd: well...not exactly...how do you differentiate a dedicated local network or FibreChannel Storage unit which is networked compared to local disk storage that is actually attached ?
 324 2014-04-24 04:50:26 <dgenr8> a predictable time, such as t=0, would be saner
 325 2014-04-24 04:50:41 <petertodd> justanotheruser: lots of miners have rasberry pi's controlling their hashing power for starters, and secondly there are interests who would rather mining become more, rather than less, centralized
 326 2014-04-24 04:50:52 <petertodd> Belxjander: latency is one way
 327 2014-04-24 04:51:21 <petertodd> dgenr8: you have to work within the limitations of the system - decentralized consensus just can't come to consensus reliably in a short period of time and still be decentralized
 328 2014-04-24 04:51:34 <Belxjander> petertodd: I've seen HDD and SSD storage times that have exceeded LAN storage times for specific use-cases and that was a local dedicated network setup for the storage caching
 329 2014-04-24 04:51:43 <justanotheruser> Well its nice to know that's not a hard fork in case its ever necessary
 330 2014-04-24 04:52:07 <petertodd> Belxjander: so what? that's a *local* area network
 331 2014-04-24 04:52:35 * Belxjander is also using a machine that right now has a latency time for hard-disks that is actually *slower* than the latency time for the dual-ethernet ports on the motherboard
 332 2014-04-24 04:52:37 <petertodd> Belxjander: if some miner wants to borrow someone elses UTXO set in the same neighborhood, I don't really care much
 333 2014-04-24 04:53:18 <Belxjander> petertodd: I'm considering on the same machine but yes...the Local vs InterNET latency times will screw with the prioritization scheme you gave above
 334 2014-04-24 04:53:18 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 335 2014-04-24 04:53:51 <justanotheruser> Belxjander: then there is an incentive for miners to have decent non-asic hardware aswell
 336 2014-04-24 04:53:58 <petertodd> Belxjander: but like I said, you can build a system where the UTXO set *must* be within, say, 50km of the miner by simple speed of light calculations, that's fine and still a big improvement over what we have right now
 337 2014-04-24 04:54:34 <petertodd> Belxjander: in reality, because network bandwidth isn't free, they'll probably have it locally, even better
 338 2014-04-24 04:54:37 misterzik has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 339 2014-04-24 04:54:41 <Belxjander> petertodd: so you just want to limit the distance to reasonably local...
 340 2014-04-24 04:54:45 <petertodd> yup
 341 2014-04-24 04:55:04 liori has joined
 342 2014-04-24 04:55:16 <Belxjander> petertodd: sorry...I was reading what you said as "more immediate" based on CPU->memory CPU->serialized-transfer-to-another-machine latency differences
 343 2014-04-24 04:55:34 <Belxjander> hrmmm]
 344 2014-04-24 04:56:03 <Belxjander> then it would actually be practical for me to setup a whole raspi stack and dedicatedly have them mine to a "node" controller on this machine which gates it to the Internet
 345 2014-04-24 04:56:16 <Belxjander> but then I still have the pre-requirement of portation to a PowerPC host
 346 2014-04-24 04:56:24 <dgenr8> petertodd: I agree with that statement but don't know why you made it
 347 2014-04-24 04:56:59 <petertodd> Belxjander: indeed, end goal is only to ensure that the UTXO set is widely distributed after all
 348 2014-04-24 04:57:05 <Belxjander> anything with a latency less than 1 whole second?
 349 2014-04-24 04:57:20 paveljanik has joined
 350 2014-04-24 04:57:35 <petertodd> Belxjander: well, as a side effect that also ensures that miners have to actually have it to mine - you can mine without validating or even having blockchain data right now
 351 2014-04-24 04:57:51 <Belxjander> then again I can feed out the blockchain to SATA+2xEthernet-TX+Dedicated-Local-Hardware attached to a Geekport within a 1second timeframe
 352 2014-04-24 04:58:02 yubrew has joined
 353 2014-04-24 04:58:05 <justanotheruser> petertodd: so would the utxo need to be queried every time you tried to hash the block?
 354 2014-04-24 04:58:25 <petertodd> Belxjander: probably more like milliseconds - speed of light * 1ms is 300km
 355 2014-04-24 04:58:38 <Belxjander> petertodd: I would personally insist on a full blockchain and have a SHA512 sum of the blockchain per-block key as an additional index for validation purposes
 356 2014-04-24 04:58:40 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 357 2014-04-24 04:58:41 <petertodd> Belxjander: note too that what I said above doesn't actually directly prove latency... it's a bit more involved
 358 2014-04-24 04:58:53 <Belxjander> so you have to have at least 1 local copy of that index AND the blockchain to generate it
 359 2014-04-24 04:59:15 <dgenr8> petertodd: the vandalism analogy is not apropos.  from merchant's point of view, scorched earth or not, he got ripped off 1 latte
 360 2014-04-24 04:59:17 <petertodd> Belxjander: there's some interesting tradeoffs re: validation there
 361 2014-04-24 05:00:05 <petertodd> dgenr8: right, and 1 latte isn't worth much, so eating the cost due to vandals isn't a big deal so long as it there's no direct incentive to do it. of course, with gambling sites, that's not an issue as the fraudster actively loses a bunch of money
 362 2014-04-24 05:00:43 <petertodd> justanotheruser: basically, querying proves bandwidth, querying *twice* can be used to prove low-latency
 363 2014-04-24 05:01:26 <dgenr8> petertodd: fraudster has nonzero chance of success and worst case is he pays for his purchase
 364 2014-04-24 05:01:51 koolhaas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 365 2014-04-24 05:02:25 koolhaas has joined
 366 2014-04-24 05:02:43 <justanotheruser> petertodd: I don't understand your answer? Is it H(H(Block header)|UTXO decided from H(block header))?
 367 2014-04-24 05:02:45 <petertodd> dgenr8: yes, and like I said, there's real-world costs involved here in the physical example, and if that's not enough you can do things like require your customer to pay some % extra, then refund them after the confirmation goes through. fidelity bonds can be used as well
 368 2014-04-24 05:03:01 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 369 2014-04-24 05:03:25 <petertodd> justanotheruser: you're trying to force the UTXO set to be queried often as part of the mining process - that's what proves bandwidth
 370 2014-04-24 05:03:58 <petertodd> justanotheruser: proving latency is a bit more tricky, but essentially you need two queries that are dependent in the right way
 371 2014-04-24 05:04:53 <justanotheruser> petertodd: is the order of how the block would be set and how the tx would be selected concrete?
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 375 2014-04-24 05:05:06 <dgenr8> petertodd: if merchants like a world where fraud is deterred by commonplace scorched-earth, they will like a world where first spends are final much better
 376 2014-04-24 05:05:16 <justanotheruser> *block would be hashed
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 379 2014-04-24 05:05:57 <petertodd> justanotheruser: yes, it has to be carefully designed and deterministic to ensure shortcuts aren't possible
 380 2014-04-24 05:06:19 <petertodd> dgenr8: I'm sure they would, but they're asking for somehting impossible in a decentralized system, so we're going to have to give them the next best thing
 381 2014-04-24 05:06:32 benrcole has joined
 382 2014-04-24 05:07:05 <dgenr8> petertodd: the next best thing is a world where respend success probability diminishes with time, on a time horizon much shorter than inter-block time
 383 2014-04-24 05:07:13 randomwalker has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 384 2014-04-24 05:07:18 koolhaas has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 385 2014-04-24 05:07:35 <petertodd> dgenr8: I know that; I'm sorry, but that's just not possible
 386 2014-04-24 05:08:23 <dgenr8> petertodd: actually we're not that far from it now.  there is eligius' self-defeating behavior.  but he will come around
 387 2014-04-24 05:08:34 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: uh thats not correct at all.
 388 2014-04-24 05:08:40 <gmaxwell> really this bitcoin 101 stuff does not belong here.
 389 2014-04-24 05:09:30 <gmaxwell> please move it to #bitcoin
 390 2014-04-24 05:09:39 <petertodd> dgenr8: I'm sure in five years this bitcoin 101 stuff will be better understood by the non-academics, but in the meantime, keep in mind that there's a lot of people with really basic misunderstandings of the technology around
 391 2014-04-24 05:10:10 hsmiths_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 392 2014-04-24 05:10:10 * gmaxwell pushes people towards #bitcoin
 393 2014-04-24 05:10:16 <Belxjander> I know there is a lot about cryptocurrencies that I simply have no knowledge of
 394 2014-04-24 05:10:23 <robonerd> who can haz help me mine bit coins with my game boy!?
 395 2014-04-24 05:10:47 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 396 2014-04-24 05:11:00 <Belxjander> obonerd: not me
 397 2014-04-24 05:11:41 robonerd is now known as windwood
 398 2014-04-24 05:11:49 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: after putting many hours in #3883 including code specifically at yours and petertodd's request, that just seems a bit harsh
 399 2014-04-24 05:12:07 ValicekB has quit ()
 400 2014-04-24 05:12:29 windwood is now known as robonerd
 401 2014-04-24 05:12:32 <petertodd> dgenr8: it took me about one year of part-time study to understand bitcoin competently
 402 2014-04-24 05:12:46 <justanotheruser> petertodd: I'm confused how you can have a UTXO querying PoW where your bottleneck isn't the hard disk?
 403 2014-04-24 05:13:17 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: You're saying things which are _physically_ precluded, I wasn't attempting to be harsh.
 404 2014-04-24 05:13:19 <Belxjander> petertodd: any recommendable guide for the bitcoin client sources as to what the layout entails or is it all just digging in and getting familiar with the layout?
 405 2014-04-24 05:13:26 <petertodd> justanotheruser: it's not that your bottleneck isn't your hard disk, it's that the *cost* of *sufficient* io bandwidth is a small % of the total cost of your mining setup
 406 2014-04-24 05:13:59 <Belxjander> petertodd: damm...I definitely need to talk with you more properly about this
 407 2014-04-24 05:14:32 <petertodd> Belxjander: yeah, just dig in IMO. I'd suggest tracing what happens when a block is received for instance. you might find reading my python-bitcoinlib sources helpful too - easier to directly experiment with w/ regard to scripting functionality
 408 2014-04-24 05:14:32 koolhaas has joined
 409 2014-04-24 05:14:34 <Belxjander> as I know of at least two physical devices where the IO latency is very very small and they are both independently network capable seperate from the host
 410 2014-04-24 05:14:49 <Belxjander> petertodd: what version of python is essential for those?
 411 2014-04-24 05:15:13 * Belxjander can't actually compile or build the original bitcoin-qt as-is without needing to get to grips with it...
 412 2014-04-24 05:15:17 <petertodd> Belxjander: works on 2.7 and 3.3 (3.4 apparently has some issues right now, pull-reqs much appreciated!)
 413 2014-04-24 05:15:29 <Belxjander> I lack qt AND recent boost libraries with the proper build requirements
 414 2014-04-24 05:15:37 <petertodd> Belxjander: install a copy of ubuntu in a VM
 415 2014-04-24 05:15:49 <petertodd> Belxjander: quite seriously for security reasons I do my development in VM's
 416 2014-04-24 05:15:59 <Belxjander> petertodd: no VM software on this machine...so any kind of assumption that will work falls flat :)
 417 2014-04-24 05:16:20 <Belxjander> petertodd: I have an AmigaOS desktop and an Android tablet for my own personal use
 418 2014-04-24 05:16:21 ValicekB has joined
 419 2014-04-24 05:16:29 <petertodd> Belxjander: crazy nutter :P
 420 2014-04-24 05:16:33 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: a person with private key A gives pays for a latte in LA, another person with the same private key A pays for dinner in new zealand, both at the same moment with the same coin. At that instant they are both outside of each others light cones. Both reciepents believe they have valid spends. But only one can. The first spend cannot be guaranteed to be valid instantly. The whole defintion of 'first' doesn't even have a well formed ...
 421 2014-04-24 05:16:37 <Belxjander> AMCC440EP processor in the AmigaOS desktop
 422 2014-04-24 05:16:40 <gmaxwell> ... meaning in a fully decenteralized system.
 423 2014-04-24 05:16:55 <Belxjander> petertodd: well... PPC and ARM,... nothing Intel in sight here
 424 2014-04-24 05:17:14 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: you can do better or worse, but the claim you made about it being close is really untrue, regardless of any miners.
 425 2014-04-24 05:17:19 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: perfectly understood.  now relax "instantly"
 426 2014-04-24 05:17:28 * Belxjander will probably have to dig up some kind of box and stick the AMD64 board in the closet into it with a HDD and PSU to use that over a network link then
 427 2014-04-24 05:17:32 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: and eligius' policy is absolutely irrelevant to this discussion.
 428 2014-04-24 05:18:18 <petertodd> dgenr8: not how re: gmaxwell's great example, the only reason replace-by-fee scorched-earth works is because it's *reactive* Same idea roughly as coinbase reallocation really, but done in a way that only harms the double-spender rather than quite possibly innocent third-parties.
 429 2014-04-24 05:18:48 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: in a well formed decentralized system there is no "first..." anything... there is only "point of event" and the "radius of knowledge" as a waveform from that point with anything within the raduis from the event consolidating the event occurance afaik
 430 2014-04-24 05:19:24 <Belxjander> stones in a pond...watch the ripples in the water
 431 2014-04-24 05:19:38 <dgenr8> as the time between the first and second spends grows, the probability of observers forming different opinions of which was first diminishes
 432 2014-04-24 05:20:00 <Belxjander> two stones with seperate ripples in the water...do the waves negate or modify ?
 433 2014-04-24 05:20:19 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: Consider, those conflicting transactions announced concurrently to differing parties— some are going to consider one first, some are going to consider the other first. No special difference in forwarding policy is required to result in a difference in mempool, just a difference in location from which you view the rest of the universe.
 434 2014-04-24 05:20:59 <dgenr8> at inter-transaction time of 1 minute, it's quite unlikely that any observers will have a different opinion
 435 2014-04-24 05:21:07 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: what time between? the attacker is free to choose any offset he wants. (or even absent an attacker, chance is free to choose any offset)
 436 2014-04-24 05:21:17 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: time-of-day and timezones comes to mind as a question of seperation based on location there ... would that have any kind of effect?
 437 2014-04-24 05:22:25 <dgenr8> merchant waits 1 minute before handing over goods.  any double spend that follows will be seen as such by vast majority of observers.
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 442 2014-04-24 05:23:56 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: there is no requirement that the double spend ever be relayed outside of a block.
 443 2014-04-24 05:24:10 ItSANgo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 444 2014-04-24 05:24:23 HaltingState has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 445 2014-04-24 05:24:25 <gmaxwell> (also,fwiw, we frequently see 90th percentile network saturation times for transactions over one minute)
 446 2014-04-24 05:24:30 <Belxjander> dgenr8: to me that would be walking into the store and swiping to make a purchase with my wallet and then swiping the item through the register to clear it and waiting for the register to confirm/deny the transaction for the item,  Japanese style of swiping out on the same floor of the shopping center as the item is f
 447 2014-04-24 05:24:30 <Belxjander> ound to buy it...and then having an extra step of swiping the item out of inventory at the main doors ?
 448 2014-04-24 05:25:02 <dgenr8> gmaxwell i admit to holding the belief that reference client has actual sway over network behavior
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 452 2014-04-24 05:25:11 <Belxjander> hang-on... what is the time-delay required for the majority of the network to actively see a transaction before it is "mined"?
 453 2014-04-24 05:25:19 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yup! replace-by-fee-using double-spends work occasionally even when both tx's have high fees due to imperfect network relaying
 454 2014-04-24 05:25:29 <petertodd> Belxjander: 0s
 455 2014-04-24 05:25:50 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: I don't believe most hashpower is currently directly running the github.com/bitcoin  reference client.
 456 2014-04-24 05:26:05 <Belxjander> petertodd: the whole network see's every spend immediately?... what about your latency where 1s = 300km of network travel distance?
 457 2014-04-24 05:26:12 <sipa> dgenr8: and the reference client does not relay double spends
 458 2014-04-24 05:26:13 <petertodd> dgenr8: note how I've been able to greatly improve the chances of double-spends getting mined by running just *four* replace-by-fee nodes
 459 2014-04-24 05:26:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: he's been working on a pull req for that.
 460 2014-04-24 05:26:26 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 461 2014-04-24 05:26:32 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: if true, and I don't doubt you, doesn't necessarily invalidate my naive belief
 462 2014-04-24 05:26:46 <gmaxwell> no, I was just adding some extra data.
 463 2014-04-24 05:26:52 <Belxjander> petertodd: I definitely have to talk with you about how the bitcoin client works
 464 2014-04-24 05:26:59 <petertodd> Belxjander: all it takes is one miner seeing the tx and finding a block with it, so yes, ~0s is your lowerbound
 465 2014-04-24 05:27:11 <gmaxwell> I'm not quite sure it's greater than 50% but a large portion (certantly over a third) runs luke's fork.
 466 2014-04-24 05:27:20 <sipa> dgenr8: and even if it did, the second transaction would not relay well if it did not follow standardness rules (but was perhaps sent tonsome miners that are known not to follow those directly)
 467 2014-04-24 05:27:51 <gmaxwell> Standardness rules by their nature aren't consistent, they're not even consistent in the reference implementation when we upgrade them.
 468 2014-04-24 05:27:53 koolhaas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 469 2014-04-24 05:27:54 <Belxjander> petertodd: well I will need to have a list of "core functions" that are in whatever core library the default client uses...and then work out what is essential from after that point
 470 2014-04-24 05:28:04 <gmaxwell> Wrt transaction propagation times, this is the kind of data I was referring to: http://bitcoinstats.com/network/propagation/2014/01/25
 471 2014-04-24 05:28:14 <dgenr8> sipa: i understand that issue and agree it is a big concern
 472 2014-04-24 05:28:25 koolhaas has joined
 473 2014-04-24 05:28:51 <sipa> dgenr8: i think it completely undermines the abilityg to reliably detect double spends
 474 2014-04-24 05:29:46 <dgenr8> sipa: ask it the other way .. why do 92% of miners mine first spend?
 475 2014-04-24 05:30:14 <petertodd> dgenr8: what makes you think it's 92%
 476 2014-04-24 05:30:25 <dgenr8> petertodd: your 8% number for eligius
 477 2014-04-24 05:30:53 <petertodd> dgenr8: eligius mines first seem modulo what they blacklist
 478 2014-04-24 05:30:57 <petertodd> *seen
 479 2014-04-24 05:31:05 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: I don't think thats a useful question. An attack always picks the boundary.  E.g. you could have 99.9999% of the pixels on your website that do nothing, and one pixel that if you click it sends the clicker 1 btc. The average payment per pixel is very low, 0.000001 btc or whatever. And yet if you deployed that you'd be broke overnight. :)  Attacks and failures care little about the average case.
 480 2014-04-24 05:31:14 Vitalik_ has joined
 481 2014-04-24 05:31:35 <petertodd> dgenr8: here, give me a bitcoin address and I'll show you
 482 2014-04-24 05:31:37 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: huh? eligius mines the first transaction they accept.
 483 2014-04-24 05:31:58 <petertodd> dgenr8: android wallet shows it well
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 485 2014-04-24 05:32:34 <gmaxwell> I'd pointed this out on the pull req. _No_ miners mine the first spend they see, most (we believe) mine the first they accept.
 486 2014-04-24 05:33:25 <gmaxwell> Acceptance rules aren't completely uniform, even without people running different code, bitcoind has commandline flags that influence them and some pool server software influences them too.
 487 2014-04-24 05:33:25 <dgenr8> my main belief is that there is nothing bad about relaying respends, and it may enable good things
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 489 2014-04-24 05:34:38 <gmaxwell> I don't have any issue with relaying respends, so long as its done in a way that doesn't itself form a dos attack vector. Though I do have some concern that people may think it provides security that it does not, and as a result it will make some people at greater risk— but I don't think thats a reason not to do it.
 490 2014-04-24 05:35:12 <petertodd> dgenr8: yes, relaying respends can let miners learn about those respends and mine them...
 491 2014-04-24 05:35:23 <gmaxwell> It will greatly enable 'greedy-rational' behavior by miners, making sure they know about more profitable doublespends.
 492 2014-04-24 05:35:25 Vitalik__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 493 2014-04-24 05:35:30 <gmaxwell> (mixed blessing there!)
 494 2014-04-24 05:35:55 <dgenr8> transparency
 495 2014-04-24 05:36:39 <dgenr8> as I said on the mailing list, I don't believe mining double spends is rational, greedy or not
 496 2014-04-24 05:37:13 <gmaxwell> I think I didn't communicate effectively there by greedy I mean it in the algorithims sense, favoring the immediate benefit.
 497 2014-04-24 05:37:33 <sipa> dgenr8: by greedy-rational we usually mean excluding any reasoning lijke "this will make tge system less valuable, so it is bad for me", as it is very badly quantifiable
 498 2014-04-24 05:37:47 <gmaxwell> in any case I don't care to debate that— I'm just pointing out from a purely technical perspective providing the data enables it.
 499 2014-04-24 05:38:19 <sipa> dgenr8: or in other words: if you include that as an absolute reason, nobody woukld ever steal a bitcoin, because a system where bitcoins aren't ever stolen is more valuable
 500 2014-04-24 05:38:50 <dgenr8> understood.  do private payment processors have private respend relay networks?
 501 2014-04-24 05:39:12 <dgenr8> i also see this as a democratization of that capability
 502 2014-04-24 05:39:18 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: I'd certantly like to take you to the next meeting I have with starry eyed mining business people who have a 24 month plan that (in their figuring) results in them having 75% of the total network hashpower. :)
 503 2014-04-24 05:39:58 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: I've seen no evidence of that, but indeed, I'd rather the network provide it than people try to do crazy things like connect to all nodes— which doesn't scale.
 504 2014-04-24 05:40:03 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: with that, who needs a few extra fees
 505 2014-04-24 05:40:29 <dgenr8> I have a node on mainned relaying respends.  It has seen 125 in the last 4 days
 506 2014-04-24 05:40:32 <dgenr8> mainnet
 507 2014-04-24 05:40:44 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: Yes but its not my point, a single company controlling 75% of the hashpower would _throughly_ undermine the security model and would rightfully erode confidence in bitcoin.
 508 2014-04-24 05:40:51 <petertodd> dgenr8: oh, with my replace-by-fee patch?
 509 2014-04-24 05:41:07 <dgenr8> no, with my respend relay patch
 510 2014-04-24 05:41:14 <petertodd> dgenr8: oh right, that one
 511 2014-04-24 05:41:31 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: I'm surprised you've seen that many. Did you see which peers were giving them to you?
 512 2014-04-24 05:41:43 <dgenr8> next step is to add that logging
 513 2014-04-24 05:41:47 <sipa> dgenr8: reliably detecting double spends only works if you learn about all of them
 514 2014-04-24 05:41:53 <petertodd> gmaxwell: there appears to be people who have already implemented replace-by-fee fee-bumping
 515 2014-04-24 05:42:03 <gmaxwell> are you also comparing conflicts vs the blockchain itself? ... there should be a lot more there.
 516 2014-04-24 05:42:20 <petertodd> dgenr8: to bitcoind getpeerinfo | grep 04000 on that node for me...
 517 2014-04-24 05:42:28 <gmaxwell> petertodd: more likely increased minfee.
 518 2014-04-24 05:42:31 <dgenr8> petertodd: lets examine the txes before reaching that conclusion
 519 2014-04-24 05:42:49 <sipa> dgenr8: please do not assume the current behaviour on the network won't ever change
 520 2014-04-24 05:43:13 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: no .... gavin's code is not reached when conflict is in the chain
 521 2014-04-24 05:43:36 <sipa> dgenr8: if subsidies go down, and fees become more relevant, i am sure that the incentive for wanting highest fee instead of first will go up
 522 2014-04-24 05:43:45 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: ah okay, makes sense to me, so the only ones you should see is when someone has non-default policy of if there is a face.
 523 2014-04-24 05:43:50 <gmaxwell> er, s/face/race/
 524 2014-04-24 05:44:17 <dgenr8> sipa: yes, i hope eveyone sees the wisdom of final-at-submission long before then
 525 2014-04-24 05:44:23 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yup, seen a few that aded 0.1mBTC. Also looks like some wallets double-spend by accident too
 526 2014-04-24 05:44:42 <sipa> dgenr8: and if your patch is widely deployed, people will just do double spends where one of them wikll badly propagate
 527 2014-04-24 05:44:49 <petertodd> dgenr8: I'm asking you to check for me if my replace-by-fee node is connected to your relay node
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 529 2014-04-24 05:45:34 <dgenr8> petertodd: mine is 54.186.233.100
 530 2014-04-24 05:45:51 <petertodd> dgenr8: I've got a few replace-by-fee, easier if you check on your side
 531 2014-04-24 05:46:23 <gmaxwell> sipa: plus you have things like people double spending with greater fees to speed up an non-confirming transaction.
 532 2014-04-24 05:46:30 <sipa> dgenr8: on a private network, where you don't need to trust the sender, you can instead just relay the txins being double-spent (as you don't need proof they are actually do double spend)
 533 2014-04-24 05:46:56 <sipa> dgenr8: which has much lower worst case resource requirements
 534 2014-04-24 05:47:16 killerstorm has joined
 535 2014-04-24 05:48:43 <dgenr8> sipa: yes that is luke-jr's point but at least it may focus attention on the miners that accept those txes ... the first spends are public
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 538 2014-04-24 05:49:13 <gmaxwell> but ... there is no such thing as first. :(
 539 2014-04-24 05:50:09 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: the charts and percentiles don't seem to agree on that page
 540 2014-04-24 05:50:21 <sipa> ...?
 541 2014-04-24 05:51:38 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: they do, it's just a long tail and the end runs off the chart notice the peak of the spike is not very high. (p=0.18 ir so)
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 544 2014-04-24 05:52:29 <sipa> what are you talking about?
 545 2014-04-24 05:52:53 <dgenr8> the pdf of transaction chart seems to be at zero but who am i to judge.
 546 2014-04-24 05:52:54 <gmaxwell> sipa: the cdecker transaction propagation data.
 547 2014-04-24 05:53:16 <sipa> sigh
 548 2014-04-24 05:53:51 <sipa> as i said: if your patchnis widely deployed, and used to detect double spends, it will change attacker's behaviour to avoid it
 549 2014-04-24 05:53:52 <gmaxwell> Though thats not material to there not being a first. There really isn't a first. Even if the prop time was 1 second, transactions can be announced concurrently.
 550 2014-04-24 05:53:55 <dgenr8> an interested merchant will make some attempt to be well-connected
 551 2014-04-24 05:54:08 <gmaxwell> Expirence doesn't support that.
 552 2014-04-24 05:54:11 <gmaxwell> (at least not so far)
 553 2014-04-24 05:54:26 <gmaxwell> The people who try seem to mostly do ignorant things that the network couldn't support in any case.
 554 2014-04-24 05:54:47 <sipa> i think reliable double-spsnd detection is only possible in a network with severaln trusted nodes
 555 2014-04-24 05:54:59 <dgenr8> sipa: i'm sure attackers will try to adapt, yes
 556 2014-04-24 05:55:23 <petertodd> dgenr8: note how double-spend detection can incentivize attackers to attack the network...
 557 2014-04-24 05:55:50 <sipa> and yes, the double spend relays introduce their own resource usage and dos potential
 558 2014-04-24 05:56:08 <dgenr8> #3883 mentions a paper with 3 concrete recommendations: merchants being well connected, a merchant waiting period, and respend alerts
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 561 2014-04-24 05:57:37 <sipa> and, if those have 0 cost on their own, they are certainly good ideas
 562 2014-04-24 05:58:02 <petertodd> dgenr8: paper ≠ good
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 566 2014-04-24 05:58:27 <dgenr8> petertodd: don't put words in my mouth ;)
 567 2014-04-24 05:59:03 <dgenr8> but they did actually test these things
 568 2014-04-24 05:59:10 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: would that be the paper that goes on at length basically blowing up the claims on Bitcoin wiki showing that they don't work, and sort of mocking the bitcoin community? :P
 569 2014-04-24 05:59:30 <sipa> dgenr8: i am only saying that to someone who wants to double spend, your limited double spends provides little proection
 570 2014-04-24 06:00:03 <dgenr8> sipa: alone, no.  piece of the puzzle
 571 2014-04-24 06:00:16 <sipa> what else?
 572 2014-04-24 06:01:08 <dgenr8> i don't see how the network can ever support real-time transactions unless submitters consider txes final at submission
 573 2014-04-24 06:01:56 greenspa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 574 2014-04-24 06:01:57 <dgenr8> and I guess I think that is more important than the use cases for altering transactions
 575 2014-04-24 06:03:02 <sipa> i do not think the network can support reakl time transactions *reliably* at all
 576 2014-04-24 06:03:10 <petertodd> You know, with all the amazing things that Bitcoin makes possible, the fact that people are so incredibly concerned about being able to support fast transactions at the expense of other important goals is bizzare.
 577 2014-04-24 06:04:51 <Belxjander> petertodd: for the same reason that "speed" tumped quality in the choice of what CPU out of all the CPU families became "popular" seems a plausible "speed first, quality later" approach generalyl
 578 2014-04-24 06:04:54 <Belxjander> generally
 579 2014-04-24 06:06:31 benrcole has joined
 580 2014-04-24 06:07:36 <petertodd> Belxjander: indeed, and kinda sad. OTOH, good reason to implement more of those amazing things :)
 581 2014-04-24 06:08:24 <Belxjander> petertodd: well I will just have to finish the AmigaOS IME I am working on...
 582 2014-04-24 06:08:42 <warren> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=582345.0  If you know Bitcoin users who are a native speaker of non-English languages could you please refer them here?
 583 2014-04-24 06:09:04 <Belxjander> right now I need to sort out a Unicode UTF-8 output based on any arbitrary string input giving me a chorded-search-key arrangement
 584 2014-04-24 06:09:29 <Belxjander> warren: I speak English but I am learning Japanese at the moment...
 585 2014-04-24 06:09:55 <warren> technical Japanese is not easy to do if you aren't good at Japanese
 586 2014-04-24 06:10:01 <Belxjander> warren: and no...I don't generally visit the bitcointalk forums for any reason
 587 2014-04-24 06:10:13 <warren> it's written to bitcoin dev list too
 588 2014-04-24 06:10:27 <Belxjander> warren: well I am learning to read Kanji and however technical it gets I seem to have no real issues with it
 589 2014-04-24 06:10:28 benrcole has quit (Read error: No route to host)
 590 2014-04-24 06:10:45 <warren> https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/bitcoin/  Here's the language coverage.  anything less than 100% needs volunteers.
 591 2014-04-24 06:10:48 benrcole has joined
 592 2014-04-24 06:11:56 <sipa> warren: it is not really advisable that people translate to anything but their native language imho
 593 2014-04-24 06:12:03 <warren> sipa: right
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 596 2014-04-24 06:12:43 <warren> Belxjander: native Japanese speakers often can't translate technical things properly
 597 2014-04-24 06:13:06 <sipa> of course, many people have a second language that they are more than proficient in
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 609 2014-04-24 06:43:38 <dgenr8> petertodd: how important can those other goals be, if you can accept them being terminated when a block is found?
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 615 2014-04-24 06:47:25 <dgenr8> sipa: so, you like respend detection, but so far don't believe it should be a capability of the bitcoin network itself?
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 619 2014-04-24 06:51:25 <Emcy> they wont put first DS relaying in
 620 2014-04-24 06:51:37 <Emcy> (some good reasons for that though it seems)
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 623 2014-04-24 06:52:05 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: I'm confused about your last comment to petertodd.
 624 2014-04-24 06:53:53 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: he means goals like decenteralization, trustlessness, autonomy, and things like that. Imposing a lot of attempted behavioral controls and things like blacklists for the coins of naughty people can be seen as not very compatiable with the idea being that the system works because of math and inherent motivations instead of regulations.
 625 2014-04-24 06:54:07 <sipa> dgenr8: i don't think the public network (which has far stronger DoS protection necessities and must function with bad actors participating) _can_ reliably offer double spend detection
 626 2014-04-24 06:54:36 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: i read it as things like ability to bump fees.  At a random moment, you lose that ability.
 627 2014-04-24 06:56:40 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: being able to choose the fees for transactions you include in blocks you create (and also take the orphan risk for) isn't at odd at not being able to choose the fees in blocks other people create. You still speak your mind in your portion of the blocks.  (and its not like we can take away that ability to choose in any case)
 628 2014-04-24 06:58:00 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: i thought replace by fee referred to anyone being able to bump fees on their spends, not just the tiny minority who are miners
 629 2014-04-24 06:59:13 <gmaxwell> By bump fees I thought you meant miners being able to choose the fees they accept. As far as replacement with other fees, well— thats not a minor feature, since thats whats you need to do to pay the lowest fees on the fee market if you don't care about the transaction being fast.
 630 2014-04-24 07:00:09 <sipa> s/minor/miner/ ?
 631 2014-04-24 07:00:09 <gmaxwell> (you pay low fees and then if it doesn't go through in an acceptable time you increase them, like a reverse auction)
 632 2014-04-24 07:00:26 <gmaxwell> hah no minor!
 633 2014-04-24 07:01:17 phantomspark has joined
 634 2014-04-24 07:06:44 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: can a fee bump be accomplished with a child transaction?
 635 2014-04-24 07:07:53 <sipa> dgenr8: in your latest mail, you mean every transaction needs to have a hash of _the_ previous transaction?
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 639 2014-04-24 07:10:31 <dgenr8> sipa: last known transaction on the highest-fee chain of unconfirmed transactions
 640 2014-04-24 07:11:39 <sipa> who puts it there?
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 642 2014-04-24 07:13:21 <dgenr8> sipa: tx creator, or his agent, by inspecting mempool.  please see that as an idealized musing and not some kind of proposal.
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 644 2014-04-24 07:13:49 <sipa> dgenr8: yes, i saw you consider it a bad idea
 645 2014-04-24 07:14:12 <sipa> dgenr8: but there are way worse reasons why that can't work
 646 2014-04-24 07:14:53 <sipa> dgenr8: in particular, if transactions take (let's say) 10s to propagate across the network, you can only do an average of 1 transaction per 10 seconds
 647 2014-04-24 07:15:25 <dgenr8> sipa: yes, that is the big one I am aware of.  others?
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 649 2014-04-24 07:16:15 <sipa> hmm, that was not what i read as your reason
 650 2014-04-24 07:16:21 <sipa> never mind if that is what you meant
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 654 2014-04-24 07:19:10 <sipa> anyway, it also requires every sender to have a consistent view of miner's memory pools
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 656 2014-04-24 07:20:18 <sipa> which really means you need very low latency across the network, otherwise by the time a miner sees your transaction (chain), it will already be far behind on accumulated fees the miner has
 657 2014-04-24 07:20:27 <sipa> in its best chain
 658 2014-04-24 07:20:49 <dgenr8> sipa: although network relay gives bad actors information, it gives everyone information
 659 2014-04-24 07:21:23 <sipa> which, even if you slow transactions down enough to make this not a problem, means you exclude any type of non-full node from producing transactions
 660 2014-04-24 07:21:35 <sipa> in particular, no offline transaction signing
 661 2014-04-24 07:21:37 <dgenr8> sipa: sorry that was not on txchain topic
 662 2014-04-24 07:22:16 <sipa> dgenr8: the information isn't bad
 663 2014-04-24 07:22:29 <sipa> dgenr8: it's the fact that it has costs associated with it, and little guarantees
 664 2014-04-24 07:23:11 <dgenr8> sipa: today a very naive double spend can work
 665 2014-04-24 07:23:15 <sipa> and if you trim it down to have little costs (rate limit, not relay nonstandard doublespends, ...), it becomes trivial to circumvene
 666 2014-04-24 07:23:32 <sipa> dgenr8: it only needs one smart cow to figure out how to circumvene
 667 2014-04-24 07:23:58 <sipa> preventing only against the least technically competent attacker isn't very useful
 668 2014-04-24 07:24:13 <dgenr8> sipa: it currently does not relay nonstandard
 669 2014-04-24 07:24:24 <sipa> i know
 670 2014-04-24 07:24:34 <sipa> which is necessary, otherwise it becomes a dos vector
 671 2014-04-24 07:25:18 <sipa> but with it, the information you get is "nope, i haven't heard about any double spends on this... wait, except if the double spend is nonstandard!"
 672 2014-04-24 07:25:23 <dgenr8> someone asked me how common successful respends are
 673 2014-04-24 07:25:52 <dgenr8> my answer was about as common as real time merchants taking bitcoin
 674 2014-04-24 07:26:03 Grouver has joined
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 676 2014-04-24 07:26:31 <gmaxwell> I don't see why you relate the two?
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 678 2014-04-24 07:27:25 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: could they not be accepting it, because they have analyzed the risks?
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 681 2014-04-24 07:31:04 <dgenr8> sipa: to answer your question, yes, you would need a full-node agent, and oops, i had not thought of offline signing.  thank you for reading it.
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 693 2014-04-24 07:39:06 <brookman32k> Hello. I am experimenting around with the JSON-RPC api in bitcoin-qt. When doing a number of "sendtoaddress" calls in a row (~50 transactions), bitcoin-qt is becoming incredibly slow/hanging. What is the reason for that?
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 767 2014-04-24 09:17:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|warren: hi
 768 2014-04-24 09:17:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(re: 04:27:34 <warren> michagogo|cloud: around?)
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 772 2014-04-24 09:25:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|04:53:37 <warren> sipa: btw, is it feasible to have secp256k1 (disabled by default) in 0.9.2? <-- Uh, it's impossible to *not* have secp256k1 in any release
 773 2014-04-24 09:25:33 Milanito__ has joined
 774 2014-04-24 09:25:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(unless you mean libsecp256k1 :-P)
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 777 2014-04-24 09:28:53 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: you're always very literal
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 786 2014-04-24 09:35:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: I'm aware
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 798 2014-04-24 09:45:06 <GAit> i was reading a pull request for a BIP which also discussed bip32 gap limits. Isn't there any inherit issue with using gaps with risking of reusing addresses?
 799 2014-04-24 09:45:40 <brookman32k> In the rpc api, is it somehow possible to retrieve the unspent coins (i.e. balance) of an arbitrary (non wallet) address?
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 801 2014-04-24 09:46:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|brookman32k: no
 802 2014-04-24 09:46:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You need an index for that, which Bitcoin Core doesn't maintain
 803 2014-04-24 09:46:42 <GAit> brookman32k: you could use electrum server for that
 804 2014-04-24 09:46:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(or a 3rd party)
 805 2014-04-24 09:46:59 <brookman32k> michagogo|cloud: So to do that, I have to crawl every transaction and create my own index?
 806 2014-04-24 09:47:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you want to do it locally, yes
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 811 2014-04-24 09:47:52 <brookman32k> I'll try that... thanks
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 815 2014-04-24 09:49:48 <brookman32k> How many transactions (txids) are there currently? I counted about 1.4M in the testnet.
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 817 2014-04-24 09:50:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|one sec
 818 2014-04-24 09:51:26 <brookman32k> nvm. just found it. about 37M
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 821 2014-04-24 09:53:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|2014-04-24 09:25:16 UpdateTip: new best=00000000000000001f41ede42a5a6504a93d5f62bb4de47d3df1c5415fd4030e  height=297454  log2_work=78.185929  tx=37458163  date=2014-04-24 09:24:24 progress=0.999997
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 838 2014-04-24 10:18:43 <hearn> brookman32k: bitcoinj has a postgres backend that can answer queries of that form
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 842 2014-04-24 10:23:56 <GAit> is it me or is very hard to read a bitcoin dev mailing list thread from the beginning? the interface is brutal
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 844 2014-04-24 10:25:31 <GAit> actually not that bad, i should have used mail archive instead of sourceforge directly
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 851 2014-04-24 10:28:51 <wumpus> yes the gmane interface is better than sourceforge's
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 854 2014-04-24 10:30:53 <hearn> sourceforge sucks badly
 855 2014-04-24 10:31:14 <hearn> it’d be great if we could move to either google groups, or maybe something like the D forum software. it has a nice ultra-fast web UI, mailing list and even NNTP support
 856 2014-04-24 10:31:42 <hearn> but basically anything is better than sf.net at this point
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 859 2014-04-24 10:32:28 <wumpus> did you try the gmane interface? it has NNTP support as well, as well as two ways of showing things, of which one is very similar to google groups'
 860 2014-04-24 10:32:51 <wumpus> http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.bitcoin.devel
 861 2014-04-24 10:33:06 <hearn> yeah gmane is ok too
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 864 2014-04-24 10:33:46 <GAit> wumpus: quite nice thanks :)
 865 2014-04-24 10:33:58 <wumpus> I don't want to move the mailing list for this, it's public subscription and anyone can archive and display the posts in any way they want
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 881 2014-04-24 11:03:44 <bedeho> In getblocks message, is "@block locator hashes" a 32 byte char array? or is it 32*hash_count byte char array?
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 883 2014-04-24 11:06:07 <GAit> do you think a bip for bip0032 based multisignature wallets should be discussed separately from the current bip0032 structure thread?
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 886 2014-04-24 11:07:46 <GAit> maybe there's already a discussion i missed that concentrates on bip0032 multisig wallets
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 893 2014-04-24 11:20:47 <hearn> GAit: no bip yet. “multisig wallets” are complex, as you know :) best to wait for things to settle down before trying to standardise anything
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 896 2014-04-24 11:32:55 <GAit> hearn: i'm not particularly interested in rushing a bip about it but it would be interesting to discuss with a wider audiance the options available. I would like one day to import my multisig wallet anywhere i like by just passing with a metadata file host, master public key together with my mnemonics/seed and being able to change third party or wallet software easily. i.e. decouple them
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 898 2014-04-24 11:33:23 <hearn> divorce them :)
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 901 2014-04-24 11:35:06 <GAit> yeah something like that. some cheating function :D
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 934 2014-04-24 12:15:23 <sirk390> Hi all, I am trying to compile bitcoin 0.9.1 on centos, but have this bug saying " key.cpp:134:  `pkey != __null' failed".  It seems the default openssl doesn't contain the bitcoin ecdsa curve. To solve it, I downloaded and build the last version of open ssl, but after re-building bitcoins still picks up the system openssl. I tried to set the variables SSL_CFLAGS and SSL_CFLAGS, but I couldn't figure out how to use them... Is t
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 936 2014-04-24 12:17:21 <Luke-Jr> sirk390: your IRC client doesn't respect freenode's line limit, so that got cut off at ".. Is t"
 937 2014-04-24 12:17:38 <Luke-Jr> sirk390: I believe warren and/or gmaxwell have fixed OpenSSL RPMs somewhere.
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 941 2014-04-24 12:20:01 <sirk390> Luke-Jr: I was saying I was trying to point bitcoin to my local version of openssl using SL_CFLAGS and SSL_CFLAGS
 942 2014-04-24 12:20:46 <sirk390> Luke-Jr: but i couldn't figure out exactly how to do it. When I was setting those flags, bitcoin would find no ssl at all anymore
 943 2014-04-24 12:21:03 <Luke-Jr> usually to control what libraries are linked at runtime, you need to run with LD_LIBRARY_FLAGS
 944 2014-04-24 12:21:33 <Luke-Jr> what were you setting them to?
 945 2014-04-24 12:22:14 <sirk390> Luke-Jr: I was setting  SSL_LIBS=-L/usr/local/lib64/ SSL_CFLAGS=-I/usr/local/include/
 946 2014-04-24 12:23:22 <Luke-Jr> try SSL_LIBS='-L/usr/local/lib64/ -Wl,-rpath,/usr/local/lib64/ -lssl' SSL_CFLAGS='-I/usr/local/include/'
 947 2014-04-24 12:23:45 <Luke-Jr> (the -rpath means you shouldn't need LD_LIBRARY_FLAGS at runtime)
 948 2014-04-24 12:24:23 <Luke-Jr> also be sure you're setting these as configure options
 949 2014-04-24 12:24:29 <Luke-Jr> eg, by running: ./configure SSL_LIBS='-L/usr/local/lib64/ -Wl,-rpath,/usr/local/lib64/ -lssl' SSL_CFLAGS='-I/usr/local/include/'
 950 2014-04-24 12:24:34 <sirk390> Luke-Jr: Ok, thanks a lot, I will try
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1040 2014-04-24 14:22:32 <tyrick> anyone awake in here?
1041 2014-04-24 14:22:47 <dhill> 5 more minutes mom
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1058 2014-04-24 14:44:39 <fanquake> ;;blocks
1059 2014-04-24 14:44:40 <gribble> 297493
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1067 2014-04-24 14:57:05 <nezZario> Nothing like waking up in the morning and reading my bitcoin-dev
1068 2014-04-24 14:57:29 <tyrick> ya
1069 2014-04-24 14:57:31 <tyrick> devs
1070 2014-04-24 14:57:47 <tyrick> yay. wake up, all
1071 2014-04-24 14:57:54 <sipa> glad i slept through most of it :)
1072 2014-04-24 14:58:13 * tyrick so happy
1073 2014-04-24 14:58:46 <fanquake> speaking of sleep. It's about that time.
1074 2014-04-24 14:58:52 agricocb has joined
1075 2014-04-24 14:59:08 <jgarzik> hearn, what wiki page has that old bond market stuff on which I based pybond?  my search-fu is failing me.
1076 2014-04-24 14:59:13 <sipa> fanquake.sleep(28800);
1077 2014-04-24 14:59:17 _yoy_ has joined
1078 2014-04-24 14:59:17 <hearn> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Distributed_markets
1079 2014-04-24 14:59:24 <sipa> jgarzik: will you be in amsterdam?
1080 2014-04-24 14:59:30 <jgarzik> sipa, yes
1081 2014-04-24 14:59:32 <sipa> cool
1082 2014-04-24 15:00:08 <tyrick> Although bitcoind.cpp has a main(), running bitcoind seems to not start at that main() function
1083 2014-04-24 15:00:23 <tyrick> Where does this program start?
1084 2014-04-24 15:00:35 <sipa> there
1085 2014-04-24 15:00:38 <kinlo> tyrick: it does start at main(), why do you assume it doesn't?
1086 2014-04-24 15:00:53 llllllllll has joined
1087 2014-04-24 15:01:11 <tyrick> If I print out to a log on the first line of main, it isn't the first thing that prints out to the log file
1088 2014-04-24 15:01:27 <fanquake> sipa No work tomorrow, can probably do without it tonight.
1089 2014-04-24 15:01:29 <sipa> tyrick: constructors of global objects can be invoked before main()
1090 2014-04-24 15:01:58 <hearn> openssl writeup - http://www.tedunangst.com/flak/post/worst-common-denominator-programming
1091 2014-04-24 15:02:01 <kinlo> tyrick: you did print out correctly, coz opening the same file twice, with different buffers might mess up order
1092 2014-04-24 15:02:09 <hearn> i think it must be the first time ever that anyone has actually looked at the code with a critical eye
1093 2014-04-24 15:02:34 <tyrick> sipa: I see
1094 2014-04-24 15:02:41 <sipa> hearn: i suddenly find a lot more support for work to remove our openssl dependency :)
1095 2014-04-24 15:02:47 <hearn> indeed
1096 2014-04-24 15:03:05 <hearn> i wish android didn’t use it to implement the java ssl api. sigh.
1097 2014-04-24 15:03:09 <sipa> "i hated openssl before it was uncool"
1098 2014-04-24 15:03:16 <nezZario> haha
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1100 2014-04-24 15:03:45 <hearn> lol
1101 2014-04-24 15:03:47 <nezZario> sipa, what is to come of a replacement?
1102 2014-04-24 15:03:48 <hearn> http://opensslrampage.org/
1103 2014-04-24 15:03:55 <hearn> http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/lib/libssl/src/crypto/bn/bn_mont.c.diff?r1=1.17;r2=1.18
1104 2014-04-24 15:03:57 <hearn> hilarious
1105 2014-04-24 15:04:02 <hearn> tandem machines!
1106 2014-04-24 15:04:37 <hearn> there are so many double free’s they’re fixing
1107 2014-04-24 15:05:07 <jgarzik> sipa, lol
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1111 2014-04-24 15:05:37 <jgarzik> RE replacement, there is PolarSSL, which some people want me to use with my C library (picocoin / libccoin)
1112 2014-04-24 15:06:28 <hearn> i bet all ssl libraries written in C suck and are full of bugs
1113 2014-04-24 15:06:51 <hearn> also polarssl has cert parsing bugs: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~shmat/shmat_oak14.pdf
1114 2014-04-24 15:07:04 <Diablo-D3> someone is writing a wrapper for nss to do the openssl api
1115 2014-04-24 15:07:23 <nezZario> I don't fully understand what openbsd guys are doing to openssl.. I know they're not going to try to move the changs upstreame not going to move the changes upstream, so they're going tto just have a "openbsd version of openssl", right?
1116 2014-04-24 15:07:31 <nezZario> OpenOpenSSL
1117 2014-04-24 15:07:36 <Diablo-D3> nezZario: libressl
1118 2014-04-24 15:07:44 <Diablo-D3> they're basically trolling the openssl guys
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1121 2014-04-24 15:07:55 <nezZario> I like openopenssl better :)
1122 2014-04-24 15:07:59 <sipa> nezZario: for everything but ssl, easily
1123 2014-04-24 15:08:13 <sipa> we use openssl mostly for bignum and base crypto stuff
1124 2014-04-24 15:08:23 <sipa> ssl itself is another beast :(
1125 2014-04-24 15:08:40 <sipa> but not necessary for just bitcoind (unless you need rpcssl)
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1129 2014-04-24 15:13:26 <nezZario> btw
1130 2014-04-24 15:13:32 <nezZario> what was the pay to IP thing all about anyway?
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1132 2014-04-24 15:14:39 <hearn> you mean the feature in v0.1?
1133 2014-04-24 15:15:00 <nezZario> yeah, did it ever even work?
1134 2014-04-24 15:15:45 <Diablo-D3> I dont think it did
1135 2014-04-24 15:15:47 <Diablo-D3> and it never made sense
1136 2014-04-24 15:15:57 <hearn> i can’t recall if i tried it or not
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1138 2014-04-24 15:16:17 <hearn> i think it did work at least in 2009, but it didn’t get used much because back then bitcoin users were hardly online simultaneously
1139 2014-04-24 15:17:09 <Diablo-D3> I don't remember it working
1140 2014-04-24 15:17:18 * Diablo-D3 was actually around back then
1141 2014-04-24 15:17:33 <hearn> did you try it?
1142 2014-04-24 15:18:23 <Diablo-D3> You know, I can't remember
1143 2014-04-24 15:18:55 <hearn> let’s assume satoshi did try it at least once and possibly nobody else did :)
1144 2014-04-24 15:19:03 <hearn> it actually did have some advantages over pay to address
1145 2014-04-24 15:19:11 <hearn> that’s why we brought it back in a more modern form
1146 2014-04-24 15:19:35 <nezZario> hearn: brought it back as?
1147 2014-04-24 15:19:37 <GAit> payment protocol
1148 2014-04-24 15:20:04 <hearn> BIP 70
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1154 2014-04-24 15:28:08 <hearn> sipa: where was the discussion of your attempts to use merkleblocks for relaying by default/
1155 2014-04-24 15:28:14 <hearn> i can’t find it anymore. it’s not a pull req?
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1170 2014-04-24 15:45:44 <octocodercat> Is it possible to send a message in the script of a transaction?
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1173 2014-04-24 15:49:14 <hearn> “possible”, yes. a good idea? no
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1177 2014-04-24 15:57:11 <sipa> hearn: an a gisttr by gavin
1178 2014-04-24 15:57:22 <sipa> hearn: on a gist by gavinandresen
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1181 2014-04-24 15:58:35 <tyrick> send a message in the script of a transation?
1182 2014-04-24 15:58:51 <tyrick> transaction*  * * ***       *
1183 2014-04-24 15:59:27 <sipa> octocodercat: why would you want to do that? it's horrible for privacy, and puts unnecessary burden on the network (which has to keep your data around forever)
1184 2014-04-24 15:59:48 <sipa> octocodercat: it's private date between the sender and the receiver; just send it directly to them (through the payment protocol for example)
1185 2014-04-24 16:00:19 <tyrick> wait, you can send massages to receivers?
1186 2014-04-24 16:00:31 Milanito has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1187 2014-04-24 16:00:32 <tyrick> through the payment protocol?
1188 2014-04-24 16:00:35 <sipa> using the payment protocol, yes
1189 2014-04-24 16:00:39 <sipa> and refund addresses
1190 2014-04-24 16:01:03 <Luke-Jr> octocodercat: there is no standard for that, no
1191 2014-04-24 16:05:15 dims has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1192 2014-04-24 16:05:59 <tyrick> I don't see a refund address option?
1193 2014-04-24 16:06:11 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1194 2014-04-24 16:06:38 <octocodercat> Hmm
1195 2014-04-24 16:06:42 <tyrick> also, looking at transactions in a block, I don't see anything there either
1196 2014-04-24 16:07:25 <sipa> tyrick: see BIP 70-72
1197 2014-04-24 16:07:33 <sipa> tyrick: the payment protocol is not the bitcoin P2P protocol
1198 2014-04-24 16:08:01 <sipa> tyrick: the only data that belongs on the P2P network is data necessary for the world to validate your transaction; anything else is private communication between the sender and the receiver
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1201 2014-04-24 16:08:50 <sipa> tyrick: the payment protocol introduces payment requests and payment messages that are exchanged between sender and receiver to negotiate the bitcoin transaction before it is broadcast on the network
1202 2014-04-24 16:09:00 <tyrick> have these been implemented?
1203 2014-04-24 16:09:02 <sipa> yes
1204 2014-04-24 16:09:20 <sipa> by bitcoin core, bitcoinj, bitcoin wallet for android, bitpay
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1206 2014-04-24 16:11:01 <tyrick> why isn't this in the core gui?
1207 2014-04-24 16:11:06 <sipa> it is
1208 2014-04-24 16:11:15 <sipa> since 0.8.0
1209 2014-04-24 16:11:18 <tyrick> seems like the only fields are Pay To, Label, and Amount
1210 2014-04-24 16:11:20 <sipa> sorry, since 0.9.0
1211 2014-04-24 16:11:44 <sipa> you can load a payment request file, and the protocol handler for bitcoin: links with a payment protocol URI in them work
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1213 2014-04-24 16:12:54 <tyrick> Hm, so the message can only be sent if a payment request has been ... requested
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1215 2014-04-24 16:13:38 <sipa> yes, otherwise you don't where to send it
1216 2014-04-24 16:13:41 <sipa> *know
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1218 2014-04-24 16:14:05 <tyrick> what about just sending the message to any public bitcoin address
1219 2014-04-24 16:14:10 <tyrick> just as I can send coins
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1222 2014-04-24 16:15:31 <sipa> that would require broadcasting it on the network, as you don't know which IP to send it to
1223 2014-04-24 16:15:38 Imuabil has joined
1224 2014-04-24 16:15:41 <sipa> which means you lose privacy, and burden the network
1225 2014-04-24 16:15:42 <tyrick> I see
1226 2014-04-24 16:15:48 <tyrick> so it would become public at that point
1227 2014-04-24 16:16:02 <tyrick> makes sense now
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1236 2014-04-24 16:24:09 <hearn> sipa: hive is also working on implementing it
1237 2014-04-24 16:24:13 <hearn> and coinbase
1238 2014-04-24 16:24:17 <hearn> not sure they launched yet tho
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1243 2014-04-24 16:28:54 <tyrick> doesn't blockchain implement messages with transactions?
1244 2014-04-24 16:28:58 austinhill has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1245 2014-04-24 16:29:39 <tyrick> This seems more like a 3rd party solution for apps built around btc
1246 2014-04-24 16:30:28 <sipa> b.i does it through their own centralized database
1247 2014-04-24 16:30:41 <sipa> which makes it unacceptable for decentralized applications
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1254 2014-04-24 16:38:59 <maaku> any objection to adding operator bool() to uint256?
1255 2014-04-24 16:39:09 <maaku> it already supports operator!()
1256 2014-04-24 16:39:41 <sipa> maaku: sgtm
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1261 2014-04-24 16:42:15 * maaku will actually try it next time before asking ... tons of ambiguous conversion errors
1262 2014-04-24 16:42:22 <maaku> i guess that's why it wasn't there in the first place!
1263 2014-04-24 16:42:47 <sipa> you can always use !! :)
1264 2014-04-24 16:42:56 <maaku> yeah i think that's what i'll do
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1267 2014-04-24 16:44:35 <wumpus> I remember that's usually a problem with bool() operators on types in c++, it's very easy to introduce ambiguity or unintended conversions, better to use explicit conversions
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1280 2014-04-24 17:03:04 <yoyoceramic> Is there a proof of assets scheme whereby multisig addresses can be checked for soluability?
1281 2014-04-24 17:04:00 <yoyoceramic> Particularly if the addresses were created from a combination of xpub keys in a BIP32 heirarchy?
1282 2014-04-24 17:04:43 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1283 2014-04-24 17:05:06 <sipa> you can always reveal the redeemscript + signatures by the necessary keys
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1289 2014-04-24 17:07:07 <gmaxwell> or even signatures by less than necessary to spend might be interesting. e.g. if 3/4 are needed to spend, showing two shows at least that those keys could block the spend. Might have some useful implications wrt keeping keys online
1290 2014-04-24 17:07:51 <yoyoceramic> gmaxwell That's an interesting way to think about it.
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1295 2014-04-24 17:12:35 <yoyoceramic> So the xpriv at the same depth in a bip32 could verify a P2SH addresses created from a combination of the xpub keys.  Are there any implementations of this done on a bulk level?  For example, if you prevenerated several P2SH addresses to store them in a databse
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1307 2014-04-24 17:24:01 <gmaxwell> yoyoceramic: there is some multisig brainwallet genrating webpage that is setup for that, I'm not aware of any released real wallets that do. Codeshark was working on a wallet.
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1310 2014-04-24 17:26:57 <yoyoceramic> gmaxwell Thanks.  I have been playing around with it.
1311 2014-04-24 17:26:59 <gmaxwell> ::sigh:: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=582744.0
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1316 2014-04-24 17:30:40 <midnightmagic> holy micropayment fail
1317 2014-04-24 17:31:17 <btiefert> "sigh" is right
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1323 2014-04-24 17:37:31 <wallet42> 1 hour no block?
1324 2014-04-24 17:38:08 <gmaxwell> ;;tblb 3600
1325 2014-04-24 17:38:09 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 1 hour and 0 seconds to generate is 1 week, 0 days, 4 hours, 18 minutes, and 15 seconds
1326 2014-04-24 17:38:30 <gmaxwell> wallet42: a reasonable and expected event which should happen about once a week.
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1328 2014-04-24 17:38:47 <wallet42> whats the formula? tblb?
1329 2014-04-24 17:38:49 <shesek> nice, didn't know gribble can do that
1330 2014-04-24 17:39:21 <nedot> hi anybody know where i could found bitcoin bet casino script?
1331 2014-04-24 17:39:22 <nedot> .
1332 2014-04-24 17:39:25 <wallet42> ;;tblb 7200
1333 2014-04-24 17:39:26 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 2 hours and 0 seconds to generate is 24 years, 5 weeks, 1 day, 5 hours, 39 minutes, and 17 seconds
1334 2014-04-24 17:39:39 <gmaxwell> it can't go too high before it runs out of precision.
1335 2014-04-24 17:39:53 <gmaxwell> nedot: entirely wrong channel for that question, and no I don't.
1336 2014-04-24 17:40:09 <nedot> gmaxwell: i need something easy
1337 2014-04-24 17:40:20 <nedot> just for research
1338 2014-04-24 17:41:26 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1339 2014-04-24 17:41:26 <shesek> nedot, as he mentioned, that's not the right channel for that
1340 2014-04-24 17:41:41 <nedot> shesek could u recommend anywhere else?
1341 2014-04-24 17:41:45 <nedot> where?
1342 2014-04-24 17:43:12 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1343 2014-04-24 17:43:39 <rnicoll> have you tried Googling?
1344 2014-04-24 17:44:03 <nedot> rnicoll: nop, i didnt find anything
1345 2014-04-24 17:44:07 <nedot> there
1346 2014-04-24 17:44:10 <nedot> here
1347 2014-04-24 17:44:10 <nedot> :P
1348 2014-04-24 17:44:31 <wallet42> gmaxwell: but the script does not include the current diff increase?
1349 2014-04-24 17:44:42 <nedot> why does nobody solve the blockchain? last solved 10 min and then 1 hour ago?
1350 2014-04-24 17:44:49 <nedot> why delay?
1351 2014-04-24 17:45:00 <wallet42> nedot: nobody wants the reward
1352 2014-04-24 17:45:20 <nedot> wallet42: is that a joke?
1353 2014-04-24 17:45:27 <wallet42> nedot: yes
1354 2014-04-24 17:45:37 <nedot> then he should not minner :)
1355 2014-04-24 17:45:38 <wallet42> its called variance
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1358 2014-04-24 17:46:05 <nedot> no its called delay :)
1359 2014-04-24 17:46:16 <nedot> you remember? "bitcoin fast easy"
1360 2014-04-24 17:46:22 <nedot> i just say..
1361 2014-04-24 17:46:24 <sipa> nedot: #bitcoin please
1362 2014-04-24 17:46:37 <nedot> dont take it personally
1363 2014-04-24 17:46:49 jordandotdev has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
1364 2014-04-24 17:47:01 <nedot> but its not the first time
1365 2014-04-24 17:47:58 Burrito has joined
1366 2014-04-24 17:48:04 <nedot> gmaxwell: should it be easy to build a portable wallet? if i upload the blockchain to a webserver /FTP and let it use that data?
1367 2014-04-24 17:48:28 <nedot> with encryption ofc
1368 2014-04-24 17:49:50 <sipa> nedot: if you're going to trust a webserver to serve correct data about the world's finances, why do you use a full client at all?
1369 2014-04-24 17:50:03 <sipa> nedot: use a webclient if you're fine with that level of trust; much faster
1370 2014-04-24 17:50:18 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1371 2014-04-24 17:50:24 <nedot> sipa: sorry, is there any easy script for build own webclient?
1372 2014-04-24 17:50:24 grau has joined
1373 2014-04-24 17:50:28 <Burrito> See CoinPunk. But you'd have be solidly trusting yourself and the host with security.
1374 2014-04-24 17:50:37 pierreat1ork has joined
1375 2014-04-24 17:52:17 venzen has joined
1376 2014-04-24 17:53:09 <Burrito> (and the software, but the CoinPunk project has a bounty program for bug/exploit hunting)
1377 2014-04-24 17:54:00 <nedot> ty
1378 2014-04-24 17:56:06 <Emcy> 100 million inputs
1379 2014-04-24 17:56:14 <Emcy> are you fuckin kiddin
1380 2014-04-24 17:56:35 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
1381 2014-04-24 17:56:44 <Luke-Jr> Burrito: and the browser, and any third-party scripts used, and the JS engine..
1382 2014-04-24 17:56:48 <wallet42> does bitcoind coin selection favors change?
1383 2014-04-24 17:56:58 mrkent has joined
1384 2014-04-24 17:57:07 <sipa> wallet42: more specific?
1385 2014-04-24 17:57:11 <Burrito> Favours old coins, I believe?
1386 2014-04-24 17:57:53 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1389 2014-04-24 18:00:08 <Luke-Jr> favours exact matches mainly, IIRC
1390 2014-04-24 18:00:56 <nedot> CoinPunk
1391 2014-04-24 18:01:04 <Luke-Jr> is off-topic here
1392 2014-04-24 18:01:07 <nedot> does not Blockchain using this software?
1393 2014-04-24 18:01:16 <nedot> blockchain.info
1394 2014-04-24 18:01:26 <Luke-Jr> nedot: CoinPunk, Blockchain.info, and other such things, are off-topic here
1395 2014-04-24 18:01:56 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1398 2014-04-24 18:03:39 <tyrick> What is CoinPunk?
1399 2014-04-24 18:04:10 * tyrick giggles
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1406 2014-04-24 18:13:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: instead of a slow back and forth on github; about about here.  I don't see how your latest comment doesn't create an incentive for a miner to relay their header and then sit on the block content for as long as they think they can get away with (and once they're doing that— for other miners to start mining on headers whos content they haven't seen).
1407 2014-04-24 18:14:55 <sipa> gmaxwell: if you reveal a header without the block, you risk it getting orphaned (the early header has only an effect on the network once the block is revealed)
1408 2014-04-24 18:15:10 <sipa> dang, now i start using that terminology myself :(
1409 2014-04-24 18:15:16 <gmaxwell> good.
1410 2014-04-24 18:15:20 <gmaxwell> :-)
1411 2014-04-24 18:16:39 <gmaxwell> sipa: why would I continue mining on the prior block when I have the next header already? my new block— if found— would just be very likely to get orphaned.
1412 2014-04-24 18:17:17 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1413 2014-04-24 18:17:40 * Luke-Jr sighs at IEEE paper giving the same recommendation he's been making for years
1414 2014-04-24 18:17:58 <Luke-Jr> I guess that's 6 month old news <.<
1415 2014-04-24 18:18:14 <sipa> gmaxwell: unless you have reason to assume that if you don't have the block data, nobody does
1416 2014-04-24 18:19:15 <sipa> but yes, i do see the problem
1417 2014-04-24 18:19:33 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: IEEE paper... recommending tonal?
1418 2014-04-24 18:19:54 <sipa> you basically get a "header mining" ecosystem, next to block mining, and it may try to get ahead
1419 2014-04-24 18:20:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: relay blocks early
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1421 2014-04-24 18:20:24 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: can you add a link to your old patch to the discussion where I just mentioned it?
1422 2014-04-24 18:20:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: although I'd be happy with them recommending tonal independently :P
1423 2014-04-24 18:21:15 * Luke-Jr wonders how long git is going to take to list his bitcoind branches..
1424 2014-04-24 18:21:21 <Luke-Jr> real    0m6.284s
1425 2014-04-24 18:21:23 <Luke-Jr> woo
1426 2014-04-24 18:21:37 <gmaxwell> sipa: worse, that header mining ecosystem already exists.
1427 2014-04-24 18:23:07 <gmaxwell> (see the issue where someone complained that he lost a block in his header mining setup because bitcoind rejected the block)
1428 2014-04-24 18:23:14 <sipa> right
1429 2014-04-24 18:24:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: if someone shows up who wants a science project ... I still like the idea of a parallel protocol who uses forward error correction to take advantage of the transaction the peer already knows ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/block_network_coding )
1430 2014-04-24 18:24:30 <Luke-Jr> sipa: #1586
1431 2014-04-24 18:25:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: what if we have UTXO set commitments?
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1434 2014-04-24 18:25:41 <sipa> you couldn't mine a valid block with just the parent header then
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1436 2014-04-24 18:26:42 <wallet42> is there an rpc for calculating the priority of a mempool tx?
1437 2014-04-24 18:28:59 <gmaxwell> sipa: indeed or even just some other token that required having the whole prior block. But I think it's still broken. I find a block and transmit the header, I can mine on it, but no one else can. If someone else finds a block I announce the rest, and I win unless two blocks were found very fast.
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1441 2014-04-24 18:30:13 <sipa> gmaxwell: good point
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1444 2014-04-24 18:34:02 <gmaxwell> maybe this all works fine with a slight tweak, use the time max(block-recieved, min(block-recieved,header-recieved + ε seconds))  for some small ε  if  ε is compariable to network jitter its pretty hard to use strategically.
1445 2014-04-24 18:34:25 <gmaxwell> and perhaps ε should be O(blocksize) or O(bitcoins days destroyed)
1446 2014-04-24 18:35:12 <gmaxwell> the former reflecting the expected relay time, the latter reflecting something that is hard to forge and incentivizes mining real transactions.
1447 2014-04-24 18:35:28 <sipa> i believe your formula simplifies to block-received
1448 2014-04-24 18:35:55 <gmaxwell> er the outer should have been min not max.
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1450 2014-04-24 18:36:20 <sipa> in that case it simplifies to min(block-receiver, header-received + epsilon)
1451 2014-04-24 18:36:51 <gmaxwell> yep. okay can't multitask min/max algebra. Thats right.
1452 2014-04-24 18:37:09 Dizzle has joined
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1454 2014-04-24 18:37:11 <gmaxwell> gah.
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1459 2014-04-24 18:41:26 <gmaxwell> mah, no the whole idea is stupid.
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1462 2014-04-24 18:42:51 <gmaxwell> what I was trying to get was something where the earlier header had a finite advantage (perhaps proportional to some block cost).
1463 2014-04-24 18:43:02 <gmaxwell> But it still leaves the parallel ecosystem problem.
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1472 2014-04-24 18:51:41 <gmaxwell> I guess what I was actually thinking was really max(recieved_time-ε, header_time). With ε proportional to some block property.
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1536 2014-04-24 19:45:59 <waxwing> does anyone know, has anyone started putting together a threshold sig implementation?
1537 2014-04-24 19:48:35 da2ce7 has joined
1538 2014-04-24 19:49:08 <GAit> no that i know of but i intend to use it once it is considered stable and happy to contribute to it where possible
1539 2014-04-24 19:50:09 <waxwing> GAit, i suppose same here ... i was looking at it a couple of weeks back and got a bit disheartened by the interactivity required.
1540 2014-04-24 19:50:38 <sipa> iirc interactivity is only required if m<n
1541 2014-04-24 19:50:40 joesmoe has joined
1542 2014-04-24 19:51:47 <waxwing> sipa, oh so if 3 of 3 it's OK? I didn't spot that
1543 2014-04-24 19:52:09 <GAit> for datacenter stuff interactivity should not be an issue. you'd think m<n is better in case you lose connectivity to a  datacenter
1544 2014-04-24 19:52:10 Persopolis has joined
1545 2014-04-24 19:52:10 <waxwing> interesting detail. i guess mostly people want small m and large n
1546 2014-04-24 19:52:31 <GAit> or did i get confused on what m and n are
1547 2014-04-24 19:52:43 <waxwing> i mean mostly people want 2 of 3 or 2 of 2, but for that p2sh is fine
1548 2014-04-24 19:53:02 <waxwing> GAit, usually m of n is what's meant.
1549 2014-04-24 19:53:10 <GAit> ok then i understood correctly
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1551 2014-04-24 19:53:40 <GAit> and although you can do p2sh, threshold works quite nicely and trasparently from the network
1552 2014-04-24 19:53:50 <GAit> cheaper too no?
1553 2014-04-24 19:55:58 <sipa> cheaper in bandwidth, storage and cpu
1554 2014-04-24 19:56:30 <GAit> yeah i think i was thinking of classic multisig and higher fees
1555 2014-04-24 19:57:02 <shesek> you also get a bigger anonymity set
1556 2014-04-24 19:57:32 <waxwing> yes. it is wonderful from that point of view. we just need to get it to actually work :)
1557 2014-04-24 19:57:35 <shesek> as long as multisig is not widely used, its somewhat easier to relate services/users that use multisig to transactions
1558 2014-04-24 19:58:11 <Dizzle> Pretty widely used in the darknet marketplaces now.
1559 2014-04-24 19:58:24 <waxwing> threshold sigs? don't think so Dizzle
1560 2014-04-24 19:58:29 <GAit> no p2sh
1561 2014-04-24 19:58:36 <Dizzle> meant multisig
1562 2014-04-24 19:58:50 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1563 2014-04-24 19:58:55 <shesek> Dizzle, exactly - right now, you can be 90% sure that a multisig transactions on the network is coming from a darknet
1564 2014-04-24 19:59:04 <GAit> shesek: or greenaddress or gitgo or
1565 2014-04-24 19:59:08 <waxwing> actually i was looking into that yesterday, seems a lot of darknets are trying to get it working, but i'm not sure how many actually have it working.
1566 2014-04-24 19:59:20 <GAit> or bitrated :)
1567 2014-04-24 19:59:27 <GAit> or not yet?
1568 2014-04-24 19:59:27 <shesek> GAit, right, but still, darknet marketplaces are a large part of that
1569 2014-04-24 19:59:30 <waxwing> one problem is outside of bitcoind, not many wallets have it integrated in an easy to use way
1570 2014-04-24 19:59:51 <waxwing> that means quite a lot of work for the darknet market operators to get it usable.
1571 2014-04-24 19:59:53 <GAit> waxwing: are you worried about alt coins not using bitcoin features?
1572 2014-04-24 19:59:54 <sipa> even in bitcoind it is mostly send only
1573 2014-04-24 19:59:59 <shesek> darknet marketplace transactions are "hiding" in a smaller anonymity set relatively to if they were using regular transactions
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1575 2014-04-24 20:00:32 <GAit> i don't know, i assume that the tx from p2sh wallets is higher than traffic on dark markets
1576 2014-04-24 20:00:35 <GAit> but maybe i'm naive
1577 2014-04-24 20:00:42 <waxwing> sipa, yes signing has to be on command line right
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1580 2014-04-24 20:02:49 <GAit> and even once  ecdsa threshold signatures are implemented  they can't be swapped for all p2sh use cases if i understand correctly. I intended to use ecdsa threshold signature on top of p2sh (or below so to speak)
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1582 2014-04-24 20:03:37 <waxwing> GAit, i guess that's true in as much as p2sh != multisig
1583 2014-04-24 20:04:01 <GAit> i mean p2sh multisig uses cases as opposed to generci p2sh, sorry
1584 2014-04-24 20:04:59 <Dizzle> waxwing: sorry to keep the off-topic topic going, but if you are curious on the count of multisig support, here's a recent breakdown (probably NSFW): http://i.imgur.com/9um1bHD.png
1585 2014-04-24 20:05:53 <GAit> Dizzle: i had no idea there were so many
1586 2014-04-24 20:06:53 <waxwing> yeah it's been exploding recently. Dizzle , I was doing some research yesterday to try and find out how it's being used. Some are claiming to use it but not really using it as intended I think.
1587 2014-04-24 20:07:13 <waxwing> By which I just mean the situation is a bit complicated.
1588 2014-04-24 20:07:22 <GAit> i hope they are using some deterministic mechanism and rotate keys in the p2sh
1589 2014-04-24 20:07:25 <Dizzle> GAit: Yea, a lot of basement PHP entrepreneurs popping up thinking they can do it better than the last big news-worthy fail, or thinking they can scam better.
1590 2014-04-24 20:07:27 <zedong> the marketplace definitely uses it, they were the first DNM to do it, they coded an electrum plugin for it
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1592 2014-04-24 20:09:12 <waxwing> zedong, an electrum plugin? oh that's cool. is the code githubbed?
1593 2014-04-24 20:09:12 <shesek> waxwing, a few of them go about it all wrong
1594 2014-04-24 20:09:26 <shesek> like asking the user for his private key, and sending it to their servers to sign it with bitcoind
1595 2014-04-24 20:09:40 <GAit> shesek: fantastic
1596 2014-04-24 20:09:46 <shesek> it just delays the moment the funds are under their control to when you release it instead of when you deposit
1597 2014-04-24 20:09:51 <zedong> waxwing lol no, the only way you can access it is by installing i2p and making an account on their site
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1599 2014-04-24 20:10:15 <zedong> iv got it though if you want it, they might've updated since then
1600 2014-04-24 20:10:16 <waxwing> oh they're on i2p? ok.
1601 2014-04-24 20:10:42 <waxwing> no it's not really important, i just vaguely remembered the electrum plugin functionality and it'd be interesting to see how someone used it
1602 2014-04-24 20:10:42 <zedong> it doesnt do much, creates a lot of public keys ready for upload, signs a tx if the customer wants a refund
1603 2014-04-24 20:10:58 <tyrick> is fprintf redefined in this project?
1604 2014-04-24 20:11:50 <zedong> http://pastebin.com/FknASXyk <- themarketplace.py
1605 2014-04-24 20:12:03 <waxwing> zedong, but isn't the plugin giving users the ability to sign in electrum?
1606 2014-04-24 20:12:12 <waxwing> i mean i think it's on the electrum command line anyway iirc
1607 2014-04-24 20:12:16 <waxwing> oh thx.
1608 2014-04-24 20:12:24 <waxwing> sorry for probably off-topic guys
1609 2014-04-24 20:12:39 <zedong> is it offtopic? multisig is very much in development
1610 2014-04-24 20:12:41 <Dizzle> Maybe off-topic, but interesting.
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1612 2014-04-24 20:12:51 <waxwing> it is really OT, this is for core client dev
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1621 2014-04-24 20:29:13 <zedong> Dizzle where did you get that image breaking down all the markets, iv looked on /r/darknetmarkets and cant seem to find it
1622 2014-04-24 20:29:51 <Dizzle> They keep it on the right sidebar.
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1626 2014-04-24 20:31:09 <zedong> oh yeah, that was silly of me to not see
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1695 2014-04-24 21:45:08 <robonerd> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/maintain-true-net-neutrality-protect-freedom-information-united-states/9sxxdBgy
1696 2014-04-24 21:45:24 <robonerd> hopefully we blow the top off of the 100k requirement
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1757 2014-04-24 22:35:25 <modyn> hi anybody how could help me install bitcoin wallet on linux debian?
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1767 2014-04-24 22:41:14 <maaku> modyn: #bitcoin
1768 2014-04-24 22:41:36 <maaku> robonerd: also off topic
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1777 2014-04-24 22:51:41 <robonerd> pretty sure net neutrality is on topic to bitcoin given its highly decentralized, network-necessary operation
1778 2014-04-24 22:52:24 <robonerd> or, 'hey let's give transit preference to * corps and leave 128kbps high packet loss service for bitcoin transaction propagation'... may not be good.
1779 2014-04-24 22:52:33 <sipa> #bitcoin please
1780 2014-04-24 22:52:41 <sipa> i fully agree with you, but not here
1781 2014-04-24 22:53:32 <robonerd> ok, can you help me understand why this isn't on topic in -dev? (not argumentative, genuinely don't understand)
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1790 2014-04-24 22:56:54 <gmaxwell> robonerd: Because its of general interest to bitcoin interested people, and not something that contributes directly to developing bitcoin implementations or operating the bitcoin network.  The defintion of whats on topic here is narrow because we'd like the logs to be readable by people trying to track critical technical developments in bitcoin-space. See also: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin-dev (further discussion can go into ...
1791 2014-04-24 22:57:00 <gmaxwell> ... #bitcoin or PM, I will quite people who continue to debate this here)
1792 2014-04-24 22:57:19 <Luke-Jr> quiet*
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1794 2014-04-24 22:57:25 <robonerd> ahh, that makes sense
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1796 2014-04-24 22:57:34 <robonerd> (the quieting threat however was unnecessary)
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1799 2014-04-24 22:58:02 <sipa> quitting was also unneccesary :)
1800 2014-04-24 22:58:14 <Luke-Jr> he didn't actually quit, though he's not in any channels I am now
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1883 2014-04-24 23:52:03 <xtalmath> have formal models / simplifications (think SPIN verification) of blockchains / bitcoin been made?
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1885 2014-04-24 23:53:46 <sipa> i doubt it
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1887 2014-04-24 23:54:22 <xtalmath> not even extremely simple ones?
1888 2014-04-24 23:55:02 <xtalmath> I want to better understand how to think about blockchains
1889 2014-04-24 23:56:30 <xtalmath> this does not make sense, with the huge amount of papers on bitcoin, but none actually building a formal model?
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