1 2014-04-26 00:00:12 <maaku> very good point
   2 2014-04-26 00:00:26 <maaku> also it could much with hardfork serialization changes (which are sensitive to nVersion+nHeight)
   3 2014-04-26 00:00:31 <maaku> *muck
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  24 2014-04-26 00:22:45 <heffner> is the secp256k1 java to native wrapper still being developed?
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  27 2014-04-26 00:24:50 <heffner> @sipa that was your work right?
  28 2014-04-26 00:25:30 <heffner> ah no.. it was BlueMatt
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  35 2014-04-26 00:29:16 <heffner> anybody else here familliar with NativeSecp256k1 ?
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  40 2014-04-26 00:36:41 <sipa> heffner: BlueMatt wrote the wrapper, i wrote the native implementation
  41 2014-04-26 00:37:20 <heffner> the wrapper only has verify sofar.... any plans to expand it?
  42 2014-04-26 00:37:35 <sipa> patches welcome
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  57 2014-04-26 00:54:45 <modyn> i cant use my rcpserver for bitcoind. why?
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  60 2014-04-26 00:57:40 <heffner> is there a build instruction for secp256k1 on ubuntu? first running autoconf and them ./configure results in:            configure: error: cannot find install-sh, install.sh, or shtool in src/build-aux "."/src/build-aux
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  73 2014-04-26 01:07:57 <modyn> must the bitcoind be synced to blocks? before i could use rpcserver?
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  82 2014-04-26 01:25:13 <warren> anone happen to be aware of a txid of a double-spent transaction on testnet3?
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 117 2014-04-26 02:19:39 <warren> anyone have the 1st generation USB mining sticks?
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 166 2014-04-26 03:23:35 <saizai> I’ve got bitcoind running on my server, and its data files sshfs’d onto my laptop. I’d like to run Armory so that it runs against the server’s bitcoind (and so only the server has to run bitcoind/qt), but it seems to insist on having bitcoinqt running locally, and bitcoinqt local + bitcoind on the server don’t seem happy running at the same time. Any suggestions?
 167 2014-04-26 03:25:03 <saizai> (also fwiw, my laptop is osx, server’s ubuntu)
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 172 2014-04-26 03:28:05 <phantomcircuit> saizai, #armory
 173 2014-04-26 03:28:13 <saizai> phantomcircuit: thanks
 174 2014-04-26 03:28:30 <saizai> … though nobody there?
 175 2014-04-26 03:28:46 <saizai> ‘cept TheSeven
 176 2014-04-26 03:29:01 <phantomcircuit> that sounds about right
 177 2014-04-26 03:29:06 <phantomcircuit> (hint: dont use armory)
 178 2014-04-26 03:29:44 <saizai> (reason?
 179 2014-04-26 03:30:05 <Luke-Jr> …
 180 2014-04-26 03:30:16 <phantomcircuit> surely you're not serious
 181 2014-04-26 03:30:48 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: Armory is currently the best wallet software on the "market"…
 182 2014-04-26 03:31:01 <Luke-Jr> other than being Python <.<
 183 2014-04-26 03:32:14 <saizai> ideally I’d like to have bitcoind on my server handling all the big files, and something on my laptop that’s secure and can work against my server’s (trusted) bitcoind for the big stuff so I don’t have to have any of that locally
 184 2014-04-26 03:32:29 <saizai> armory seemed to fit the bill, though I may be mistaken.
 185 2014-04-26 03:32:31 <Luke-Jr> saizai: that's not Armory
 186 2014-04-26 03:32:44 <saizai> Luke-Jr: what is?
 187 2014-04-26 03:32:54 <phantomcircuit> an spv client
 188 2014-04-26 03:33:05 <phantomcircuit> multibit maybe
 189 2014-04-26 03:33:15 <phantomcircuit> but honestly multibit makes me a bit nervous
 190 2014-04-26 03:33:17 <phantomcircuit> (har har)
 191 2014-04-26 03:33:45 <Luke-Jr> Electrum sounds like a closer match, but I don't like to recommend Electrum since they promote "from address" bogus nonsense
 192 2014-04-26 03:33:56 <saizai> howso?
 193 2014-04-26 03:34:58 <saizai> (explaining that ‘from address’ issue to the FEC was … interesting. came up in a random issue w/ their reporting proposal too, wanting to tie sale of bitcoin to a particular receipt; had to explain that’s not quite possible)
 194 2014-04-26 03:35:39 <Luke-Jr> saizai: they added some stupid thing where you can right-click an address to "send from" it
 195 2014-04-26 03:36:16 <saizai> i.e. have outputs to it be the only inputs to the new tx?
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 220 2014-04-26 04:24:07 <saizai> oy, armory fucks up when attempting to install on a gui-less server
 221 2014-04-26 04:24:10 <saizai> soooo fuck that
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 267 2014-04-26 06:39:32 <ibwbtc_> Free bitcoin with each bet!  I've been nothing but ahead!!  https://satoshibet.com/?r=82d1ca24f92d63565e3a4ecba596c057
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 271 2014-04-26 06:41:11 <gmaxwell> you are nothing bit a scamspammer
 272 2014-04-26 06:41:32 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lold
 273 2014-04-26 06:42:57 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, fun piece of trivia
 274 2014-04-26 06:43:06 <phantomcircuit> im porting an ancient bitcoin exploit to dogecoin
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 283 2014-04-26 07:01:03 <sipa> saizai: sharing datadir between two bitcoin core instances is not supported (they need read write access), and it would very much surprise me if a datadir mounted over sshfs would work
 284 2014-04-26 07:01:21 <saizai> sipa: pity :/
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 286 2014-04-26 07:01:50 <saizai> or that a bitcoind can’t use another bitcoind as its data source
 287 2014-04-26 07:01:54 <saizai> via rpc eg
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 289 2014-04-26 07:03:12 <sipa> once we separate the wallet from the full node there will be little reason for that
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 291 2014-04-26 07:08:10 * saizai nods
 292 2014-04-26 07:08:16 <saizai> that seems like a good separation to make
 293 2014-04-26 07:08:43 <saizai> the daemon can just keep the chain and transmit whatever on command
 294 2014-04-26 07:08:55 <sipa> indeed
 295 2014-04-26 07:09:10 <saizai> and have the wallet totally separate, asking the daemon for info about what outputs own eg
 296 2014-04-26 07:09:23 <sipa> eh no, the wallet tracks that
 297 2014-04-26 07:09:33 <saizai> 3rd party outputs
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 299 2014-04-26 07:09:56 <sipa> hmm?
 300 2014-04-26 07:10:03 <saizai> it’d need to know somehow about outputs to addresses it has pks for
 301 2014-04-26 07:10:15 <sipa> yes, spv synchronyzation
 302 2014-04-26 07:10:19 * saizai nods
 303 2014-04-26 07:10:39 <saizai> but then the normal wallet can be tiny
 304 2014-04-26 07:10:49 <saizai> and btcd remote
 305 2014-04-26 07:11:03 <saizai> and not tied to anything personal in particular
 306 2014-04-26 07:11:17 <saizai> makes sense
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 368 2014-04-26 09:46:39 <TheSeven> phantomcircuit: hint: I've only grabbed that #armory channel just to keep the trolls from doing so, I've never seen any official armory people in there.
 369 2014-04-26 09:50:40 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 370 2014-04-26 09:54:31 <GAit> are people in general supportive of projects like btcd? mixed feelings?
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 377 2014-04-26 10:01:41 <TravelingTeen> I'm hopeing to making it so my app will allow people to schedual a withdrawl and then at certain times I would go and generate a unsigned coinJoin transaction of all those withdrawls combined, Firstly is it even possible to create a "CoinJoin" transaction (I think thats what you call combining the withdrawls) yet using the default bitcoind and json rpc and secondly how in the world would I do it, I've tried researc
 378 2014-04-26 10:01:41 <TravelingTeen> hing
 379 2014-04-26 10:01:49 <TravelingTeen>  online but haven't found anything useful, If im missing something obvious feel free to call me a idiot lol
 380 2014-04-26 10:01:57 <TravelingTeen> Coin join isnt really needed even, I just want to create the unsigned transactions so I can move it to a offline wallet and sign it, The advantage to coinJoin would be only having one transaction to save on fees and number of transactions I would need to sign, Rather then paying a fee and signing/sending for each withdrawl 
 381 2014-04-26 10:02:05 <TravelingTeen> (Yes I copied from #bitcoin)
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 383 2014-04-26 10:05:09 <jurov> hi all.
 384 2014-04-26 10:05:14 <jurov> is it possible that transaction is visible in listtransactions, but get(raw)transaction fails
 385 2014-04-26 10:05:21 rnicoll has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 386 2014-04-26 10:05:38 <jurov> with Invalid or non-wallet transaction id or No information available about transaction?
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 389 2014-04-26 10:09:05 <wao> hello, I'm running bitcoind 0.9.1 with txindex=1 and when I do bitcoin gettransaction 1f4cc9174229486061e782e2d1f6b29946f1a533528b92fec6a1e72a24595551 I get response error: {"code":-5,"message":"Invalid or non-wallet transaction id"}, I also previously ran -reindex, any ideas?
 390 2014-04-26 10:10:40 <TravelingTeen> wao, Are you sure its done downloading?
 391 2014-04-26 10:11:19 <wao>     "blocks" : 297787,
 392 2014-04-26 10:11:22 <wao> from getinfo
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 396 2014-04-26 10:12:44 <Apocalyptic> wao, bc.i haven't seen your tx either
 397 2014-04-26 10:16:30 <sipa> jurov: you have -txindex enabled?
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 399 2014-04-26 10:17:56 <TravelingTeen> wangbus, Apocalyptic is right: https://blockchain.info/search?search=1f4cc9174229486061e782e2d1f6b29946f1a533528b92fec6a1e72a24595551
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 401 2014-04-26 10:18:10 <Apocalyptic> sipa, should it matter since he's talking about a tx visible in listtransactions, thus obviously wallet-related
 402 2014-04-26 10:18:11 <TravelingTeen> fuck, wao* sorry
 403 2014-04-26 10:18:40 <sipa> Apocalyptic: yes, listtransaction queries the wallet and only the wallet
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 406 2014-04-26 10:19:07 <sipa> Apocalyptic: getrawtransaction only queries the validation database
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 408 2014-04-26 10:19:26 <Apocalyptic> I see
 409 2014-04-26 10:19:52 <sipa> since 0.9 i think gettransaction also shows the raw form
 410 2014-04-26 10:20:04 <sipa> and doesn't need txindex
 411 2014-04-26 10:23:30 <jurov> sipa we have same case with wao, txindex is enabled
 412 2014-04-26 10:24:13 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
 413 2014-04-26 10:24:53 <jurov> we determined that in case of mutated txs, if it is wallet tx, gettransaction works (with confirmations = -1 as it should) but getrawtransaction not
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 416 2014-04-26 10:25:14 <jurov> and if it's nonwallet tx, neither works
 417 2014-04-26 10:25:18 <Apocalyptic> well it looks like 1f4cc9174229486061e782e2d1f6b29946f1a533528b92fec6a1e72a24595551 is not known to the network
 418 2014-04-26 10:25:52 <TravelingTeen> I concure :p
 419 2014-04-26 10:26:18 <Apocalyptic> <jurov> we determined that in case of mutated txs // define mutated tx
 420 2014-04-26 10:26:49 <jurov> conflicts with already confirmed tx
 421 2014-04-26 10:27:09 <jurov> the other tx shows in walletconflicts
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 423 2014-04-26 10:28:24 <sipa> jurov: getrawtransaction queries the validation database
 424 2014-04-26 10:28:48 <sipa> jurov: if it's not in the mempool and not in the blockchain, it won't find it
 425 2014-04-26 10:29:11 <jurov> anyway, that's not the point.. the point is we should deprecate getrawtransaction and instead use "hex" field from gettransaction if we want to learn more about it
 426 2014-04-26 10:29:15 <TravelingTeen> is coin join with PHP using the JSONrpc possible yet?
 427 2014-04-26 10:29:24 <sipa> jurov: yup
 428 2014-04-26 10:30:20 <jurov> alternatively, iterate walletconflicts, find confirmed tx and use that instead
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 430 2014-04-26 10:32:25 <sipa> just looking at confirmed transactions shoukd suffice, no?
 431 2014-04-26 10:32:42 <sipa> what do you need the conflicts for?
 432 2014-04-26 10:33:04 <jurov> well, we have a dice game that accepts zeroconf
 433 2014-04-26 10:33:24 <jurov> after update it croaked, so we're analyzing what does it do
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 505 2014-04-26 12:21:22 <Diablo-D3> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/1308572
 506 2014-04-26 12:24:12 <GAit> ouch
 507 2014-04-26 12:24:51 <airbreather> jurov: "we hage a dice game that accepts zeroconf" -- sounds like a really good way to lose money.
 508 2014-04-26 12:24:52 <GAit> that reminds me of ctrl+alt+canc -> task manager, kill screen saver (win 95 bug?)
 509 2014-04-26 12:24:59 <airbreather> s/hage/have/
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 515 2014-04-26 12:31:42 <TravelingTeen> is coin join with PHP using the JSONrpc possible yet?
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 519 2014-04-26 12:39:38 <sipa> coinjoin is not implemented in the reference client
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 549 2014-04-26 13:25:41 <modyn> who have a bitcoind rpcserver i could try to use?
 550 2014-04-26 13:26:20 <SomeoneWeird> uh, nobody in their right mind? :)
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 578 2014-04-26 13:50:29 <modyn> anybody who could help me install bitcoind for debian 7? i offer bitcoin as thanks /msg me
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 582 2014-04-26 13:51:41 <reipr> Im trying to weed out orphan blocks in my block notify script. Currently I am only checking if the block has 0 confirmations.
 583 2014-04-26 13:51:55 <reipr> What are the other signs that I am processing an orphan?
 584 2014-04-26 13:52:18 <sipa> you should never be notified of an orphan
 585 2014-04-26 13:52:26 <reipr> Wouldnt I be safe not processing any blocks that had 0 confirms.
 586 2014-04-26 13:52:27 <reipr> ok
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 590 2014-04-26 13:58:02 <Luke-Jr> reipr: if you mean stale blocks, you need to consider that they *become stale after the fact*
 591 2014-04-26 13:59:02 <sipa> reipr: to clarify, what the source code calls "orphan blocks" are blocks whose parents haven't been downloaded yet; you will never ever see these, except in log files
 592 2014-04-26 13:59:38 <sipa> reipr: stale blocks (which are often called orphan blocks too), are simply branches of the block tree there were once part of the best known chain, but aren't any longer
 593 2014-04-26 14:00:16 <sipa> i believe you're referring to the second, and indeed as Luke-Jr says, you'd only see them when the are active
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 595 2014-04-26 14:03:01 <reipr> So there is no change that I will process a block as if it is good and then later reprocess the block to fix the original mistake?
 596 2014-04-26 14:03:16 <reipr> chance*
 597 2014-04-26 14:03:36 <sipa> notify is called whenever the tip of the active block chain changes
 598 2014-04-26 14:04:02 <sipa> of course, it is possible that by the time your script to deal with it runs, that is no longer the actual tip
 599 2014-04-26 14:05:54 <reipr> During block processing, I never check the tip, I only refer tot he block that was given to my blocknotify script by the blockhash
 600 2014-04-26 14:06:23 <sipa> that's fine, but be aware that even if a block is once active, it can be reorganized away later
 601 2014-04-26 14:06:27 roboaunt has joined
 602 2014-04-26 14:06:31 <reipr> Im processing the block and storing the vouts that are destined to addressess that I care about.
 603 2014-04-26 14:06:49 <sipa> you need to be able to roll back too
 604 2014-04-26 14:08:17 <reipr> So, 1. Check if the block has confirmations, 2. Check the block has a parent, if not roll back to a previous block that has a parent?
 605 2014-04-26 14:08:35 <sipa> every block has a parent
 606 2014-04-26 14:08:44 <sipa> and no, that's not what i meant
 607 2014-04-26 14:08:55 <sipa> assume the current block chain is a-b
 608 2014-04-26 14:09:12 <sipa> a block c on top of b arrives and you get notified, so you process c
 609 2014-04-26 14:09:35 <sipa> now a fork appears, and a block d and e replace c
 610 2014-04-26 14:09:40 <sipa> so you get a-b-d-e
 611 2014-04-26 14:09:45 <sipa> you'll get notified for e
 612 2014-04-26 14:09:54 <reipr> ah
 613 2014-04-26 14:10:09 <reipr> so I check if I have already processed the parent. If not I roll back
 614 2014-04-26 14:10:12 <sipa> what you do is walk back to the point where you know (b), notice that c has disappeared, undo processing of c, and process d and e
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 617 2014-04-26 14:11:18 <reipr> ok so. Check that I processed blocks parent, if not walk up the chain until I hit a block Ive already processed. Check which children I processed for that block and undo it.
 618 2014-04-26 14:11:34 <sipa> indeed
 619 2014-04-26 14:11:37 <reipr> rinse repeat
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 621 2014-04-26 14:11:55 <reipr> sweet. glad I asked the question, there is alot of bad info out there
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 623 2014-04-26 14:13:35 <reipr> What is the likelyhood that this can happen. I mean is it feasable that I could have already marked a txout as "confrimed" (6 confirmations) and then have to go back?
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 626 2014-04-26 14:15:45 <reipr> nvm I see it.
 627 2014-04-26 14:15:57 <reipr> Once proof of a longer chain exists...
 628 2014-04-26 14:16:16 <reipr> Hence, wait 6 confirms.
 629 2014-04-26 14:18:54 <reipr> I guess the edge case: 1. I've been processing blocks, when I process block c, one of my transactions has received 6 confirmations. So it is possible that I have marked a transaction as confirmed when in fact it is not
 630 2014-04-26 14:19:54 <sipa> yes, confirmations are just a measure for how certain you are it won't be reverted
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 633 2014-04-26 14:20:37 <reipr> I guess even in that case, the chance of the transaction being confirmed in the next block (even if forked) is high considering the first 4 blocks were not stale
 634 2014-04-26 14:21:04 <reipr> ok
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 636 2014-04-26 14:22:37 <reipr> Im going to store the blockchain including stale blocks, it will be interesting to see over time.
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 640 2014-04-26 14:26:04 <reipr> You hear the common "Wait 6 confirmations, since the amount of hashing power to create 6 blocks in a row is so high that it is not feasible" argument. But where is the actual math?
 641 2014-04-26 14:26:24 koolhaas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 642 2014-04-26 14:26:28 <belcher> in the whitepaper
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 645 2014-04-26 14:26:54 <belcher> though the whitepaper assumes very good decentralisation of mining
 646 2014-04-26 14:27:00 <belcher> i.e. not what we have today
 647 2014-04-26 14:27:07 <belcher> theres that website where yuo can work out
 648 2014-04-26 14:27:22 <belcher> 40% of hash power can reverse 6 confirms 50% of the time
 649 2014-04-26 14:28:18 <belcher> i can never remember the link
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 652 2014-04-26 14:31:27 <reipr> https://bitcoil.co.il/Doublespend.pdf
 653 2014-04-26 14:31:40 <reipr> I guess my google-fu just got better
 654 2014-04-26 14:32:09 <belcher> no i tried googling, its not that
 655 2014-04-26 14:32:13 <belcher> its a simple javascript website
 656 2014-04-26 14:32:29 <reipr> There is a table there that lists your numbers you referenced
 657 2014-04-26 14:32:32 <belcher> put in hash power proportion and number of confirms, tell you probability of reversing
 658 2014-04-26 14:33:08 <reipr> theres a table in that pdf that lists it, along with the math involved
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 663 2014-04-26 14:40:48 <belcher> im trying to understand tx scripts of p2sh addresses to see if they were multisig or something else
 664 2014-04-26 14:41:01 <shesek> you can't
 665 2014-04-26 14:41:14 <shesek> p2sh addresses are an hash of the script
 666 2014-04-26 14:41:16 <belcher> they are inputs, the p2sh have been spent from
 667 2014-04-26 14:41:39 <shesek> ah - so yeah, in the spending transaction, the inputs contains the original script being spent
 668 2014-04-26 14:41:54 <belcher> so like a914aa2ae7db0b5da26918896cc738e5b858944b1f3187, 0xa9 is OP_HASH160  according to wiki, but 0x14 isnt anything
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 671 2014-04-26 14:44:43 <belcher> it seems short though, thats meant to contain 2 pubkeys within it
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 674 2014-04-26 14:46:47 <shesek> what are you looking into, exactly? you need the scriptSig of the input
 675 2014-04-26 14:46:54 <sipa> belcher: no, it does not contain two pubkeys
 676 2014-04-26 14:47:04 <sipa> belcher: you reveal the actual pubkeys only when spending
 677 2014-04-26 14:47:15 <sipa> including the actual script that contains them
 678 2014-04-26 14:47:19 <belcher> this is the spending tx, the p2sh adderss is being spent from
 679 2014-04-26 14:47:19 <shesek> belcher, look here: https://blockchain.info/tx/4102a51c8a29f901fd1d7489b48cf6cb5ab0bea00cc77d348f848c94d9ce4755
 680 2014-04-26 14:47:44 <belcher> hmm
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 682 2014-04-26 14:47:54 <shesek> the last part of the input script is the p2sh script
 683 2014-04-26 14:48:11 <sipa> it's often called the 'redeemscript'
 684 2014-04-26 14:48:23 <sipa> as input/output script are ambiguous
 685 2014-04-26 14:48:24 <belcher> ok
 686 2014-04-26 14:48:47 <belcher> so what is the 0x30 straight after OP_FALSE, its not an opcode
 687 2014-04-26 14:49:45 <belcher> a pubkey i guess
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 689 2014-04-26 14:50:56 <sipa> no, a signature
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 692 2014-04-26 14:51:29 <modyn> i have been upgraded libc and a bunch of other things, now everything that is not statically linked barely works. Could anybody help me fix this? I offer you payment by paypal or bitcoin /msg me
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 698 2014-04-26 14:51:59 <sipa> modyn: you were warned not to upgrade your c library
 699 2014-04-26 14:52:15 <sipa> and this is not #debian
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 702 2014-04-26 14:53:17 <shesek> belcher, as sipa mentioned, its a signature, not a public key. the public keys are contained in the redeemScript, which is that last part being pushed
 703 2014-04-26 14:53:46 <shesek> and there are also PUSHDATA ops in there that blockchain.info doesn't show
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 705 2014-04-26 14:54:19 <sipa> actually, just one pushdata
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 707 2014-04-26 14:54:35 <belcher> ok
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 752 2014-04-26 16:19:19 <jgarzik> For the nth time, I wish there was a "bitcoin cookbook"
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 754 2014-04-26 16:19:53 <jgarzik> A set of "recipes" which describe certain trust situations, and provide full scripts + TX examples on how to properly handle those situations.
 755 2014-04-26 16:20:30 <jgarzik> You see plenty of these on the forums or mailing list, in English textual form ("1. tx1 does this.  2. tx1_refund looks like this. 3. alice does that.")
 756 2014-04-26 16:21:07 <jgarzik> It would be better to have a computer-parseable set of examples.  Then I could give out these links to other people.
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 764 2014-04-26 16:29:07 <petertodd> jgarzik: I've got a few of those in python-bitcoinlib now
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 800 2014-04-26 16:56:57 <jgarzik> Thought bubble
 801 2014-04-26 16:57:08 <jgarzik> What would be the impact of requiring a simply PoW on each transaction?
 802 2014-04-26 16:57:15 <jgarzik> *simple
 803 2014-04-26 16:57:42 <jgarzik> to relay, before it is confirmed in a block.
 804 2014-04-26 17:00:06 <sipa> jgarzik: PoW == money; requiring PoW for a transactions == fee
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 806 2014-04-26 17:00:37 <jgarzik> Or more broadly "economic friction"
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 808 2014-04-26 17:00:57 <sipa> it would essentially be hashcash on top of reusable-hashcash :p
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 814 2014-04-26 17:02:22 * jgarzik is just thinking in the direction of relaying having a cost that's difficult to translate into real terms
 815 2014-04-26 17:02:41 <jgarzik> a PoW might eliminate unknown DoS vectors, by not presuming that relaying is free
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 819 2014-04-26 17:03:58 <jgarzik> OTOH, if mempool superblock works as idealized, that becomes essentially a rolling forecast of transactions likely to be confirmed in the next N blocks
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 821 2014-04-26 17:04:21 <jgarzik> If we are good at guessing what is likely to be confirmed, then relaying should succeed or fail naturally via that avenue
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 829 2014-04-26 17:17:11 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: fee is just stored POW in a transaction; with the added benefit that there are more ways to get it that only via computation... which is particularly useful on mobile devices.
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 873 2014-04-26 18:28:16 <bawse> Is it easy to program api's
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 879 2014-04-26 18:35:41 <Genitrust> where does Bitcoin's "nonce" come from?
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 883 2014-04-26 18:36:16 <sipa> you mean the word?
 884 2014-04-26 18:36:27 <sipa> or the value of block header nonces?
 885 2014-04-26 18:36:37 <sipa> or the extranonce inside the coinbase?
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 889 2014-04-26 18:38:57 <Genitrust> sipa i'm looking to learn more about this "nonce" thing. it appears to be an entirely random number... but i wonder a lot of things
 890 2014-04-26 18:39:05 <Genitrust> so let me re-phrase that question for ya :)
 891 2014-04-26 18:39:34 <sipa> nonce just means "number used only once"
 892 2014-04-26 18:39:59 <sipa> the one in block headers just there to have a variable in it, so its hash can vary
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 895 2014-04-26 18:41:14 <Genitrust> referring to this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Block_Headers
 896 2014-04-26 18:41:21 <Genitrust> who supplies that nonce?
 897 2014-04-26 18:41:24 <Genitrust> where does it come from?
 898 2014-04-26 18:41:27 <Genitrust> (the block header)
 899 2014-04-26 18:42:45 <sipa> the miner chooses it
 900 2014-04-26 18:42:54 <sipa> its value is irrelevant
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 902 2014-04-26 18:43:06 <Genitrust> ah ok, is this the miner who "solved" the block?
 903 2014-04-26 18:43:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does anyone know of a network-protocol-level Bitcoin client?
 904 2014-04-26 18:43:17 <sipa> Genitrust: yes
 905 2014-04-26 18:43:28 <Genitrust> awesome, thanks sipa
 906 2014-04-26 18:43:39 <Genitrust> and is that miner's address saved on that block header?
 907 2014-04-26 18:43:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(in other words, something that I can use to connect to a node and arbitrarily send network messages)
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 909 2014-04-26 18:43:56 <sipa> Genitrust: well, evidently... the miner choses the nonce; if he choses badly, the result just isn't valid, and he has to try a new nonce
 910 2014-04-26 18:44:11 <sipa> Genitrust: no, the payout is done by the furst transaction in a block
 911 2014-04-26 18:44:38 <Genitrust> ahh, so the payout (which goes to who solved the block) becomes the first transaction of that ?
 912 2014-04-26 18:44:40 <Genitrust> of that block* ?
 913 2014-04-26 18:44:51 <sipa> #bitcoin please
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 915 2014-04-26 18:45:56 <Genitrust> as in, i should ask #bitcoin that?
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 920 2014-04-26 18:46:43 <Genitrust> i think i'm gunna read these specifications...this is pretty cool :P)
 921 2014-04-26 18:46:44 <Genitrust> :) *
 922 2014-04-26 18:46:47 <Genitrust> have a good day!
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 976 2014-04-26 20:15:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4094/
 977 2014-04-26 20:15:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...yet another Qt build? :-/
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 986 2014-04-26 20:23:52 <rnicoll> hearn, sorry, being lazy, but this probably isn't worth a whole new email; fairly certain IANA would take a vendor registration from Bitcoin if people wanted to do that, but more asking to have asked than anything else, given it's been implemented as-is.
 987 2014-04-26 20:24:20 <hearn> yeah. i mean, i’m not sure how much it really matters
 988 2014-04-26 20:24:29 <hearn> mime types are pretty ad hoc in practice
 989 2014-04-26 20:25:45 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i'd swear python-bitcoinlib used to have a filterload message type
 990 2014-04-26 20:25:48 <phantomcircuit> amicrazy
 991 2014-04-26 20:26:24 <Luke-Jr> rnicoll: what vendor?
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 994 2014-04-26 20:31:20 <rnicoll> Luke-Jr, "Bitcoin". IANA uses the term "vendor" fairly... well incorrectly. Mostly to mean "responsible organisation"
 995 2014-04-26 20:31:56 <rnicoll> hearn, only real thing to think about is whether it's worth it for enabling lookup from MIME type back to standard
 996 2014-04-26 20:32:35 <Luke-Jr> rnicoll: my point is that there is no Bitcoin organisation
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1000 2014-04-26 20:33:30 <hearn> i think they’d probably just roll with it in our case
1001 2014-04-26 20:34:15 <rnicoll> Luke-Jr, the Github organisation would probably be given the responsibility, I think
1002 2014-04-26 20:35:36 <rnicoll> Luke-Jr, could put a recognised MIME types list in amongst the BIPS repo. I may have over thought this..
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1010 2014-04-26 20:51:14 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: which python-bitcoinlib?
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1013 2014-04-26 20:52:57 <petertodd> hmm, git log -p |grep -i filterload turns up nothing
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1017 2014-04-26 20:56:38 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, guess not
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1046 2014-04-26 21:47:55 <_alp_> Anyone around?  Trying to figure out why I can't get RPC to work with regtest
1047 2014-04-26 21:49:18 <sipa> what fails?
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1049 2014-04-26 21:49:51 <_alp_> connection failure.  can  use it with testnet or mainnet no problem
1050 2014-04-26 21:49:55 Application has joined
1051 2014-04-26 21:50:07 <_alp_> socket hang up
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1055 2014-04-26 21:52:29 <_alp_> sipa: was trying python before, bitcore now.
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1059 2014-04-26 21:59:07 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, I certainly coded that, once upon a time
1060 2014-04-26 21:59:19 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, don't see it now ;p
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1062 2014-04-26 22:01:32 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i can distinctly remember using it at somepoint
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1066 2014-04-26 22:06:46 <hearn> _alp_: does debug.log say much?
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1071 2014-04-26 22:14:26 <_alp_> hearn: let me check
1072 2014-04-26 22:16:26 <_alp_> hearn: appears that nothing is in the log since it started up
1073 2014-04-26 22:18:35 <hearn> odd
1074 2014-04-26 22:18:45 <hearn> you’re doing ./bitcoind -regtest getinfo ?
1075 2014-04-26 22:19:28 <_alp_> that works like a charm, its just RPC thats failing
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1078 2014-04-26 22:21:38 <sipa> well if getinfo works, then RPC works...
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1080 2014-04-26 22:23:15 <_alp_> sipa: sorry, I might be phrasing this wrong then.  Just trying a simple python program it doesn't respond.
1081 2014-04-26 22:23:36 <_alp_> httplib.BadStatusLine: ''
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1083 2014-04-26 22:24:57 <_alp_> ihavenoideawhatimdoingdog.jpg
1084 2014-04-26 22:26:48 <richcollins> Will nodes hold/relay a transaction that references an output that they don't know about yet?
1085 2014-04-26 22:26:54 <richcollins> I'm trying to minimize the amount of time that the user has to wait for 2 transactions (one dependent on the other) to be included in a block.
1086 2014-04-26 22:26:59 <richcollins> I was hoping to broadcast them both at the same time.
1087 2014-04-26 22:27:27 <richcollins> or do I have to wait until the first is confirmed before broadcasting the second
1088 2014-04-26 22:28:42 <sipa> richcollins: the mempool holds unconfirmed transactions that have been verified, and when new transaactions arrive that spend their outputs, they can go in the memory pool too
1089 2014-04-26 22:28:58 <sipa> there is also an orphan pool, for transactions whose inputs are unknown
1090 2014-04-26 22:29:10 <richcollins> Right but is there a chance that they will receive tx B before A and reject it?
1091 2014-04-26 22:29:13 <richcollins> ah ok
1092 2014-04-26 22:29:30 <sipa> the orphan pool is smaller and has stricter rules to prevent abuse, and transactions are randomly removed from it
1093 2014-04-26 22:29:32 <richcollins> So will the tx be moved from the orphan pool to the mempool when its depedency arrives?
1094 2014-04-26 22:29:37 <sipa> yes
1095 2014-04-26 22:30:08 <richcollins> OK so this strategy should work with the caveat that the parent tx might be mutated before being included in a block
1096 2014-04-26 22:30:17 <richcollins> rendering the child invalid
1097 2014-04-26 22:30:27 <richcollins> which would require me to recreate / broadcast it?
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1104 2014-04-26 22:34:35 <_alp_> sipa: any idea why command lind rpc would work but json rpc wouldnt?
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1106 2014-04-26 22:35:08 <sipa> no
1107 2014-04-26 22:35:19 <sipa> the command line uses jsonrpc
1108 2014-04-26 22:37:56 <_alp_> seems to be that the server just has no response.  If I use wrong port, it cannot connect, but correct port of 18444 just gives empty response, so strange.
1109 2014-04-26 22:38:09 <_alp_> and everything works great with testnet/mainent
1110 2014-04-26 22:39:28 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_……
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1115 2014-04-26 22:42:00 <sipa> Luke-Jr: ?
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1117 2014-04-26 22:42:51 <Luke-Jr> sipa: hard to get ahold of him :P
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1119 2014-04-26 22:43:59 <richcollins> Hrm how can you estimate fees for a multisig transaction when you don’t know how many inputs / outputs the counterparty will add
1120 2014-04-26 22:44:01 <richcollins> and visa versa
1121 2014-04-26 22:44:18 <richcollins> and if you can’t estimate fees then you don’t know which inputs to select in the first place
1122 2014-04-26 22:44:49 <sipa> that's no different for normal transactions
1123 2014-04-26 22:45:26 <_alp_> sipa: its a bit different in that everything is under your control in a single sig.
1124 2014-04-26 22:45:50 <Luke-Jr> richcollins: you don't know miner policies either
1125 2014-04-26 22:46:16 <richcollins> right I mean given some chosen fee
1126 2014-04-26 22:46:19 <Luke-Jr> just factor in enough that you're certain to have enough (and put whatever is left in change)
1127 2014-04-26 22:46:30 <richcollins> you can choose a fee that you’re confident will lead to acceptance of the tx
1128 2014-04-26 22:46:40 <richcollins> ah I see
1129 2014-04-26 22:46:47 <richcollins> but arent’ fees a fn of the size of the tx
1130 2014-04-26 22:46:56 <sipa> yes
1131 2014-04-26 22:47:18 <_alp_> sipa: where is code  for json-rpc call in bitcoind?  trying to see what might be different in that version.
1132 2014-04-26 22:47:26 <sipa> _alp_: rpcclient.cpp
1133 2014-04-26 22:47:33 <_alp_> sipa: ty sir
1134 2014-04-26 22:47:40 <richcollins> So the counterparty could send you inputs and outputs that cause the tx size to be more than the expected fee would cover
1135 2014-04-26 22:48:04 <sipa> richcollins: i'd say they are responsible for adding enough fee for their part?
1136 2014-04-26 22:48:13 <richcollins> ah good point
1137 2014-04-26 22:48:38 <richcollins> then you could figure out final fees before broadcasting and add some back to output values if needed
1138 2014-04-26 22:48:41 <_alp_> sipa: tough to decide whos part, there are "shared parts", but yeah, you can divide that in half if you wanted to be truly fair.
1139 2014-04-26 22:48:42 <richcollins> that should work
1140 2014-04-26 22:49:04 <richcollins> right it could be shared based on size of each contribution
1141 2014-04-26 22:49:09 <richcollins> sounds good thanks for the idea
1142 2014-04-26 22:49:11 <shesek> if one party has 100 outputs and the other has just one, then an equal split is not really fair
1143 2014-04-26 22:51:47 <PRab> Each party should cover the fee for their own inputs and outputs. Overhead should be split equally.
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1153 2014-04-26 23:18:35 <modyn> hi i want to install bitcoind for debian 7. could anybody help me please? /msg me
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1155 2014-04-26 23:21:03 <shesek> can a child transaction be on the same block as its parent?
1156 2014-04-26 23:21:31  has joined
1157 2014-04-26 23:22:09 <hearn> yes
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1159 2014-04-26 23:23:45 <shesek> thanks
1160 2014-04-26 23:27:56 <Luke-Jr> shesek: it does need to be in the right order though
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1162 2014-04-26 23:29:41 <shesek> yeah, makes sense... when you're validating a block you're going over the transactions in order, so you'd want to see the funding transaction before the one spending it
1163 2014-04-26 23:30:31 <ProfMac> I'm reading more source from the git.  I'm tracing execution flow in the network starting with a submitblock RPC.  I need some help to find where a peer receives the propagated block.  I assume it's just an open connection that gets parsed, but C++ is a foreign language to me and a filename / linenumber would really be appreciated.
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