1 2014-04-28 00:00:12 <jgarzik> getwork probably still exists in various fallback modes of modern software
   2 2014-04-28 00:00:36 <jgarzik> so the most likely case is nothing changes, until a fallback mode is needed
   3 2014-04-28 00:00:51 <jgarzik> (on the miner side)
   4 2014-04-28 00:01:01 <jgarzik> cpuminer is obsoleted alas
   5 2014-04-28 00:01:08 <jgarzik> no more using it on testnet, without mods
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   9 2014-04-28 00:02:05 <sipa> jgarzik: my PR keeps getwork, but drops the deprecated fields (they're more work to port)
  10 2014-04-28 00:02:20 <jgarzik> sipa, yeah, I think that's pointless
  11 2014-04-28 00:02:35 <sipa> ndak: it means you built from a non-release source
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  14 2014-04-28 00:02:51 <jgarzik> sipa, anybody who's using getwork is using ancient software unlikely to survive such a change
  15 2014-04-28 00:02:53 <sipa> ndak: so it warns you that the code may be insufficiently tested
  16 2014-04-28 00:02:59 <jgarzik> sipa, so it is functionally equivalent to deleting it
  17 2014-04-28 00:03:07 <sipa> jgarzik: i doubt that, actually
  18 2014-04-28 00:03:53 <jgarzik> sipa, a lot of miners based off of cpuminer required those fields, and failed without them (== bfgminer, cgminer).  It did not _use_ those field, but nonetheless triggered a failure if they were missing.
  19 2014-04-28 00:04:26 <sipa> oh
  20 2014-04-28 00:04:39 <jgarzik> Hopefully that was fixed long ago in modern miner software, but the point remains:  ancient software unlikely to change is the most likely to die
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  34 2014-04-28 00:16:00 <gmaxwell> if jeff supports removing getwork then I think we're ready to og
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  59 2014-04-28 01:07:08 <warren> anyone know if bitcoind will gracefully handle debug.log rotating with logrotate?
  60 2014-04-28 01:07:23 <sipa> yes
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  62 2014-04-28 01:07:41 <warren> michagogo|cloud: I ended up buying two useless USB sticks to mine testnet when needed
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  86 2014-04-28 01:46:00 <HaltingState> jcorgan, his code is fine; i try to keep it up to date
  87 2014-04-28 01:47:18 <HaltingState> jcorgan, i tested sipa 's library and fuzzed it and the changes that will be made in future wont change binary; mostly just bug fixes, updates, but its robust for inputs and matches openssl for all known inputs; i tried 10^6 random inputs for each function and is fine
  88 2014-04-28 01:47:58 <HaltingState> sipa, i think your library is at the right level
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  90 2014-04-28 01:48:49 <HaltingState> the gmp dependency has caused some issues on OSX however
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 107 2014-04-28 02:19:00 <HaltingState> sipa, if you make library more complex or change interface, can cause problems in terms of success/failure conditions varying between libraries ; its already very clean, but some things return error code that should not be allowed to fail
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 112 2014-04-28 02:20:57 <HaltingState> you input 32 bytes and you get private key and its just base raised to that power; but if you add check and failure condition, suddenly some inputs fail and you have to handle condition, it affects deterministic wallet implementations that are generating sequences of keys through iteration
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 151 2014-04-28 03:14:48 <jcorgan> HaltingState: As a learning exercise for Go, I'm replicating my Python BIP32 library and generator.  It will be nice to base that off a fast EC library rather than the pure Python stuff it uses now.
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 187 2014-04-28 03:48:40 <HaltingState> jcorgan, i used python alot; like go now
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 190 2014-04-28 03:51:51 <jcorgan> i'm finding the concurrency really attractive; similar to erlang without the functional religion.  haven't quite grokked the choice of no-shared libraries, but i'm sure i'll understand eventually.
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 203 2014-04-28 04:06:31 <uiop> jcorgan: i'd bet it's less a choice than a shared-libraries-and-language-abis-are-hard-lets-go-shopping thing
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 205 2014-04-28 04:10:27 <jcorgan> sure, one step at a time
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 225 2014-04-28 05:02:42 <jcorgan> question--incoming Tor hidden nodes always connect as 127.0.0.1, yet bitcoind specifically exempts this address from ban disconnects since it thinks it's local.  Is this intended?
 226 2014-04-28 05:02:57 <wumpus> yes
 227 2014-04-28 05:03:25 <wumpus> otherwise it would ban all nodes connecting from tor
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 230 2014-04-28 05:04:26 <jcorgan> ah, i thought once the threshold was exceeded on a connection, it would just disconnect, i didn't realize it also prevented future connections
 231 2014-04-28 05:04:40 <gmaxwell> We have no way to distinguish tor peers from each other, to make it costly to attack that way. A way to do that is desirable, and I've given it some thought but there isn't a nice compact way to do it.
 232 2014-04-28 05:04:45 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: yes for 24 hours.
 233 2014-04-28 05:05:04 <gmaxwell> disconnecting in this case might still be good— won't stop an attack but might clear off some brokenness.
 234 2014-04-28 05:05:27 <wumpus> right, I was not aware that disconnection was also prevented, just banning
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 236 2014-04-28 05:06:01 <gmaxwell> yea, disconnection is prevented— which is good when the peer is— say— a local p2pool node, you don't want it getting disconnected since it might not get a connection slot on reconnect.
 237 2014-04-28 05:06:34 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: here is an example where I was working on grinding out some ideas that would help for making it expensive to attack a HS listening node: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=310323.0
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 240 2014-04-28 05:08:33 <wumpus> as there is no (portable) way to distinguish localhost connections, the way to avoid that would be to add a local-bound 'whitelist port' to which local p2pool nodes and such would connect, but not TOR
 241 2014-04-28 05:08:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well, the node knows whether a connection is tor or actual-local, doesn't it?
 242 2014-04-28 05:08:53 <wumpus> no
 243 2014-04-28 05:09:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Huh?
 244 2014-04-28 05:09:09 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yup thats precisely what I think we should do (you could also allow access to that port to other 'trusted peers')
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 246 2014-04-28 05:09:17 <wumpus> tor just connects to localhost like any other local connection
 247 2014-04-28 05:09:20 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: it's _is_ a local connection at the tcp level.
 248 2014-04-28 05:09:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What's addrlocal?
 249 2014-04-28 05:09:31 <gmaxwell> 127.0.0.1 of course. it's a socket out of the tor process.
 250 2014-04-28 05:09:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: ...I see my onion address in getpeerinfo for each tor peer
 251 2014-04-28 05:10:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why can't it use that?
 252 2014-04-28 05:10:38 <jcorgan> was just digging through my logs, i see a 'not banning local node' every 2-3 hours
 253 2014-04-28 05:10:45 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: because most tor peers are not sending anything there (they aren't themselves HS listeners) and they can send anything they want there.
 254 2014-04-28 05:11:11 <gmaxwell> which is precisely what an attacker wouldn't do, so it's pointless to ban on it.
 255 2014-04-28 05:11:15 <gmaxwell> er would do
 256 2014-04-28 05:11:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: yes, but as someone just said it's useful for removing brokenness
 257 2014-04-28 05:11:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Even if it won't stop an attack
 258 2014-04-28 05:12:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(It was you, actually)
 259 2014-04-28 05:12:02 <wumpus> tor works like a reverse proxy, it accepts connections on the tor network and redirects them to a ip/port pair, distinguishing them would require specific integration with the tor software (and it's not like they export a library....) 
 260 2014-04-28 05:12:14 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: yes, but hanging up is probably good enough for that.
 261 2014-04-28 05:12:27 <gmaxwell> wumpus: tor has no idea where an inbound connection came from.
 262 2014-04-28 05:12:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: uh?
 263 2014-04-28 05:12:33 <gmaxwell> so there is nothing to integrate with there.
 264 2014-04-28 05:12:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's what I'm talking about
 265 2014-04-28 05:12:43 <wumpus> gmaxwell: but we would know that it came from tor
 266 2014-04-28 05:12:51 <gmaxwell> oh I see what you're saying.
 267 2014-04-28 05:12:53 <jcorgan> i'd be happy with a hangup only
 268 2014-04-28 05:13:02 <gmaxwell> well I think that the seperate port thing is probably the best general tool.
 269 2014-04-28 05:13:08 <wumpus> agreed
 270 2014-04-28 05:13:09 <gmaxwell> and doesn't require adding functionality to tor.
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 272 2014-04-28 05:13:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Can't we check what the process is on the other side of the socket?
 273 2014-04-28 05:13:53 <wumpus> no
 274 2014-04-28 05:13:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or does that require root?
 275 2014-04-28 05:14:07 <wumpus> it's OS specific
 276 2014-04-28 05:14:38 <wumpus> on linux you can see what process is on the other side of a localhost socket, if it belongs to the same user AFAIK
 277 2014-04-28 05:14:49 <wumpus> but that would get very messy and really isn't an option
 278 2014-04-28 05:15:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Fair enough.
 279 2014-04-28 05:15:56 <gmaxwell> besides, there are more cases where you don't want hangupgs happening.
 280 2014-04-28 05:16:13 <wumpus> (there are also quite a few race conditions and security considerations in doing it, as I remember)
 281 2014-04-28 05:16:18 <gmaxwell> listening on a second port is easy, and you can tell which one the connections came in on.
 282 2014-04-28 05:16:27 <gmaxwell> oh the days of ident.
 283 2014-04-28 05:16:30 <wumpus> right, it's the best solution
 284 2014-04-28 05:16:51 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: and finger
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 286 2014-04-28 05:17:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Maybe make that localhost-only, or like rpcallowip?
 287 2014-04-28 05:17:35 <wumpus> localhost only would be obvious
 288 2014-04-28 05:17:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: the days of ident? That's still around...
 289 2014-04-28 05:18:01 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: yes but it used to matter a lot more when multiuser shells were common.
 290 2014-04-28 05:18:03 <wumpus> if you really need to expose it to the network, you could set up some redirect
 291 2014-04-28 05:18:20 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I think the bind should be configurable and should just default to localhost.
 292 2014-04-28 05:18:32 <gmaxwell> (we already have configurable binds for other stuff)
 293 2014-04-28 05:18:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: why not just add a -wlallowip=
 294 2014-04-28 05:18:37 <wumpus> gmaxwell: but if you allow a bind, you'd need something like rpcallowip, and that rabbit hole goes deep
 295 2014-04-28 05:18:53 <wumpus> before you know it you're implementing a firewall
 296 2014-04-28 05:19:04 Guest49840 has joined
 297 2014-04-28 05:19:08 <wumpus> I really believe such functionality belongs outside of bitcoind
 298 2014-04-28 05:19:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So are you against having rpcallowip?
 299 2014-04-28 05:19:44 <wumpus> yes
 300 2014-04-28 05:19:47 ahbritto has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 301 2014-04-28 05:19:51 <wumpus> RPC should have been localhost-only as well
 302 2014-04-28 05:20:03 ahbritto_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 303 2014-04-28 05:20:37 <wumpus> (also wouldn't have needed rpcssl in that cast)
 304 2014-04-28 05:20:41 <wumpus> case*
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 306 2014-04-28 05:21:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|IMHO, if we add a whitelist port, we should either drop rpcallowip or have a wlallowip
 307 2014-04-28 05:22:01 ClarusCogitatio has joined
 308 2014-04-28 05:22:09 <gmaxwell> wumpus: we still don't need rpcssl.  Running an extra process to just proxy connections is ugly and failure prone, your bind might be connecting you to vpns and filtered by firewalls, etc. I can't think of any other daemon which is localhost only off the top of my head. Even ntp and dns administration, also databases, all work fine across the network if you enable them.
 309 2014-04-28 05:22:22 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: p2p whitelist is distinct from rpc in any case.
 310 2014-04-28 05:22:49 <wumpus> gmaxwell: bitcoin is  a*lot* more senstive though
 311 2014-04-28 05:22:59 <wumpus> gmaxwell: at least, if built with wallet
 312 2014-04-28 05:23:44 <gmaxwell> There are systems handling more dollars in value than the whole bitcoin network running in software like oracle which does allow network administration, if enabled. :)
 313 2014-04-28 05:24:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: of course it's distinct, but I do think we should have a wlallowip
 314 2014-04-28 05:24:17 Krellan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 315 2014-04-28 05:24:49 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: our allowip functionality is really cruddy. I mean ... wildcard and not cidr? 0_o.   Though I don't disagree with you. I just thought you were saying they should be the same setting and I strongly disagree.
 316 2014-04-28 05:25:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Either we do fooallowip or we don't, IMO -- unless you want to remove rpcallowip...
 317 2014-04-28 05:25:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: ah, yeah, of course not
 318 2014-04-28 05:25:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Heh, we don't do cidr? :-/
 319 2014-04-28 05:25:53 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wishes he could C++
 320 2014-04-28 05:27:05 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: nope, no cidr, see WildcardMatch in util.cpp. It's boggling.
 321 2014-04-28 05:27:19 <wumpus> gmaxwell: that's what I meant; you'll start implementing 'firewall' functionality
 322 2014-04-28 05:28:05 <wumpus> of course a wildcard match is not good enough
 323 2014-04-28 05:28:08 <gmaxwell> wumpus: sure, and ntp, bind, postgres, etc. do. At least basic functionality. Though many things only implement a controllable bind.
 324 2014-04-28 05:28:27 Guest49840 has quit (Quit: Guest49840)
 325 2014-04-28 05:28:27 <gmaxwell> The reason you often want it in the application is when it's more than just port access you want to control.
 326 2014-04-28 05:28:36 <wumpus> gmaxwell: that they do it doesn't mean that we have to; it grates me that there is so much duplication of functionality
 327 2014-04-28 05:28:36 <gmaxwell> e.g. only these features, only these users.
 328 2014-04-28 05:29:12 <wumpus> many different implementations of the same thing, usually an afterthought, some are probably buggy in one way or another
 329 2014-04-28 05:29:12 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 330 2014-04-28 05:29:40 <gmaxwell> There is usually a right level of duplication that makes things loosely coupled, so that you're not having to learn how everything in the universe works just to setup a simple thing.
 331 2014-04-28 05:30:11 rdbell has quit (Quit: rdbell)
 332 2014-04-28 05:31:06 <wumpus> hehe
 333 2014-04-28 05:32:31 ahbritto has joined
 334 2014-04-28 05:32:40 <wumpus> it starts harmless but people want more and more duplication, until you have to integrate the entire universe
 335 2014-04-28 05:32:45 ahbritto_ has joined
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 337 2014-04-28 05:33:19 <wumpus> and then you are at the same point, it's no longer a simple thing but an entire universe :p
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 341 2014-04-28 05:34:02 <wumpus> in any case I'd be ok with configurable bind functionality
 342 2014-04-28 05:34:16 <wumpus> but adding all kinds of ACLs seems like a step too far
 343 2014-04-28 05:34:21 ClarusCogitatio has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 344 2014-04-28 05:34:23 <gmaxwell> Sure and navigating the tensions and tradeoffs of conflicting requirements is at the core of engineering. :) I think it's okay, we can just work these things out.
 345 2014-04-28 05:34:40 <gmaxwell> Sounds okay to me.
 346 2014-04-28 05:35:01 <gmaxwell> bind is enough that it makes it easy to use external acl functionality (e.g. firewalls) without excessive complexity.
 347 2014-04-28 05:35:15 <wumpus> right
 348 2014-04-28 05:36:37 <gmaxwell> the other place where internal 'acl' functionality comes into play is with things like banning, where the application itself is making these decisions, — we wouldn't want to be making callouts to firewalls. :)
 349 2014-04-28 05:37:07 banghouse has joined
 350 2014-04-28 05:37:08 <gmaxwell> but at least today we don't do too much there.
 351 2014-04-28 05:37:51 <wumpus> hey, callouts to firewalls would make sense, if you really want to blackhole an IP instead of just banning it *ducks*
 352 2014-04-28 05:38:11 <wumpus> sure if the decision is with the application it's really something unique to that and it makes sense
 353 2014-04-28 05:38:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: so should we drop rpcallowip?
 354 2014-04-28 05:38:37 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: that wouldn't be nice would it
 355 2014-04-28 05:39:03 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: I'd love to drop it, but once you give something people hate it if you take it back :p
 356 2014-04-28 05:39:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If anything, I'd think wlallowip would be more useful/good to have than rpcallowip
 357 2014-04-28 05:40:09 <wumpus> I think we need a port to send allowip requests and then add a allowipallowip
 358 2014-04-28 05:40:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Since if you need to make rpc calls from a remote machine, you should know how to set up a firewall and access rules
 359 2014-04-28 05:40:41 <wumpus> or a turing complete allowip language
 360 2014-04-28 05:40:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But a wlallowip can be useful even to people who don't necessarily know how to do that
 361 2014-04-28 05:41:10 <wumpus> or a neural network to train which IP patterns to allow
 362 2014-04-28 05:41:50 banghouse has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 363 2014-04-28 05:41:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|e.g. If someone wants to use p2pool, getting into access rules, firewall settings, etc may be too complicated for them
 364 2014-04-28 05:42:02 <wumpus> I'm not denying that it can be useful michagogo|cloud...
 365 2014-04-28 05:42:39 <wumpus> if it listens by default on localhost, they already can use p2pool without configuring anything
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 367 2014-04-28 05:43:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I suspect that, if they both existed, wlallowip would get more use than rpcallowip
 368 2014-04-28 05:43:48 <gmaxwell> wumpus: there is a lot of software that just suports a lost of cidr masks, thats hardly skynet level complexity. :)
 369 2014-04-28 05:43:58 da2ce7 has joined
 370 2014-04-28 05:44:05 <gmaxwell> s/lost/list/
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 372 2014-04-28 05:44:24 ClarusCogitatio has joined
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 374 2014-04-28 05:44:34 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I agree
 375 2014-04-28 05:45:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is this easy for a user without much technical knowledge to set up on all supported OSes?
 376 2014-04-28 05:46:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Without having to go out and find a tool that does it?
 377 2014-04-28 05:47:05 <uiop> just train a neural net until either it learns how to implem the whole software itself or the sun burns out, whichever first
 378 2014-04-28 05:47:19 <uiop> *grr, was scrolled up)
 379 2014-04-28 05:47:23 <wumpus> uiop: ah yes I forgot self-modifying
 380 2014-04-28 05:48:20 <uiop> best to implem it in selfmod pdp11 asm for good measure
 381 2014-04-28 05:49:18 <wumpus> so there are two pulls that implement whitelisting, but neither adds a seperate port
 382 2014-04-28 05:49:20 <uiop> (with callout to system("sudo iptables ..."))
 383 2014-04-28 05:49:45 ClarusCogitatio has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 384 2014-04-28 05:49:57 <wumpus> they do have on-the-fly configurability, for if your static ACLs aren't good enough :-)
 385 2014-04-28 05:50:43 <wumpus> uiop: sudo? no way, we'd just make it part of the kernel
 386 2014-04-28 05:52:25 benrcole has joined
 387 2014-04-28 05:53:58 <uiop> theuniverse.ko
 388 2014-04-28 05:54:33 ClarusCogitatio has joined
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 390 2014-04-28 05:55:45 da2ce7 has joined
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 392 2014-04-28 05:55:57 <wumpus> gmaxwell: why do you want to remove getblock?
 393 2014-04-28 05:56:00 ClarusCogitatio has quit (Excess Flood)
 394 2014-04-28 05:57:13 <wumpus> gmaxwell: oh, you probably mean getwork :)
 395 2014-04-28 05:57:13 <jcorgan> gee, all i asked about was hanging up on misbehaving onion nodes; but the conversation since has been very interesting :)
 396 2014-04-28 05:57:23 <uiop> on a serious note though, i can see it being a *very* fine line between "just enough" (implem of selected parts of existing non-portable subsytems in bitcoin*) and having a "half-working reimplem of solved systems that might have egregious bugs, i'm not sure"
 397 2014-04-28 05:58:39 <uiop> especially/for-example with the acls exploitability probably increases much faster than acl-language complexity
 398 2014-04-28 05:59:01 <wumpus> uiop: a very fine line indeed, and it's easy to overstep it just trying to be 'user friendly'
 399 2014-04-28 05:59:03 ClarusCogitatio has joined
 400 2014-04-28 05:59:09 <gmaxwell> erp
 401 2014-04-28 05:59:52 <gmaxwell> I think uniformity should be the tie breaker, other infrastructure daemons implement bind and basic cidr style acls, bugs in them seem fairly infrequently.
 402 2014-04-28 06:00:11 <gmaxwell> and if we don't have a wallet we're functionally similar to bind or ntp.
 403 2014-04-28 06:00:31 <wumpus> without a wallet things would be so much easier
 404 2014-04-28 06:00:35 <gmaxwell> a somewhat security sensitive, reliability sentitive, public network service.
 405 2014-04-28 06:00:42 ralphtheninja has joined
 406 2014-04-28 06:01:34 <wumpus> it could even be mostly unauthenticated in that case, except for control RPCs
 407 2014-04-28 06:02:03 <wumpus> well ok there's ddos risk
 408 2014-04-28 06:02:17 impulse has joined
 409 2014-04-28 06:02:30 <wumpus> but all in all, things would be much prettier
 410 2014-04-28 06:04:26 <wumpus> CIDR seems simpler than the crazy wildcard matching that we use now
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 418 2014-04-28 06:09:36 <wumpus> and it can be matched directly without converting the address to a string, making it less expensive than the (recursive) string matching, yes I think it would be a good thing
 419 2014-04-28 06:11:06 <wumpus> I wonder if there really are users using strange wildcards like *.1
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 429 2014-04-28 06:14:35 ClarusCogitatio has joined
 430 2014-04-28 06:16:14 <uiop> wumpus: BUG REPORT: "before i did *.1, not you're telling me i've got to enumerate all 16777216 ip addr explicitly!?!"
 431 2014-04-28 06:16:32 <uiop> no no, it would be:
 432 2014-04-28 06:17:20 <uiop> wumpus: BUG REPORT: "bitcoind is exhausting all my memory and swap trying to read my config file, it's 314G because i had to enumerate ..."
 433 2014-04-28 06:18:27 <wumpus> uiop: yes that would be typical, first the bug report would just contain 'bitcoind is exhausting all my memory !', then after much prodding they reveal their config file (what, am I not supposed to put 16 million IPs in there? YOU DON'T SCALE)
 434 2014-04-28 06:18:59 felipelalli has joined
 435 2014-04-28 06:19:03 <uiop> hehe
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 438 2014-04-28 06:22:24 rdbell has quit (Quit: rdbell)
 439 2014-04-28 06:22:27 <wumpus> just like Qt becomes slow if you paste >32000 characters into a line edit. Not much of a use case, until bitcoin came along, and people started pasting raw hex transactions > 16k
 440 2014-04-28 06:24:19 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 441 2014-04-28 06:27:15 <wumpus> hm even the *.1 case could be handled by allowing the use of netmasks
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 449 2014-04-28 06:35:36 Milanito has joined
 450 2014-04-28 06:36:08 _andares has joined
 451 2014-04-28 06:36:27 <_andares> hey, what is the most appropriate library for inspecting blockchain history in java?
 452 2014-04-28 06:36:32 <_andares> bitcoinj seems to run in SPV mode only
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 456 2014-04-28 06:41:53 grau has joined
 457 2014-04-28 06:41:59 <wumpus> connecting to a bitcoind instance using RPC and using getblock is simplest, although it can be slow if you need lots of block data
 458 2014-04-28 06:43:13 <_andares> are there RPC libraries for bitcoind written in Java?
 459 2014-04-28 06:43:51 <_andares> oh, regular JSON-RPC
 460 2014-04-28 06:43:51 <wumpus> in that case I suppose bitcoinj has a way to request whole blocks from your node through the P2P port, not using bloom filtering
 461 2014-04-28 06:44:57 <_andares> it gets worse than that.
 462 2014-04-28 06:45:07 <_andares> I want to look up every transaction a given address has been a party to.
 463 2014-04-28 06:45:37 <wumpus> right, then you will have to scan over all blocks, or make an index
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 467 2014-04-28 06:46:51 <jcorgan> patch your bitcoind with pull request #3652, set addrindex=1 in your bitcoin.conf, re-run with -reindex, then you'll have what you need
 468 2014-04-28 06:47:10 paveljanik has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 469 2014-04-28 06:47:10 <_andares> wow, awesome. thanks jcorgan
 470 2014-04-28 06:47:48 <jcorgan> sipa hates me about now :)
 471 2014-04-28 06:49:29 <_andares> I should use the "listtransactions" API on bitcoind, I guess
 472 2014-04-28 06:49:57 <jcorgan> well, after than reindex you can do:
 473 2014-04-28 06:50:00 <jcorgan> ./bitcoin-cli searchrawtransactions 1KwDYMJMS4xq3ZEWYfdBRwYG2fHwhZsipa
 474 2014-04-28 06:50:11 <jcorgan> and get what you want out as json
 475 2014-04-28 06:50:35 <jcorgan> downside: the blockchain+txindex+addrindex is now 26G
 476 2014-04-28 06:51:03 grau has joined
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 478 2014-04-28 06:52:33 <_andares> that is... pretty heavy
 479 2014-04-28 06:53:08 <jcorgan> price you pay for having those indexes at your beck and call
 480 2014-04-28 06:53:39 <_andares> and I guess there's no way that I could verify that a web service gave me the full tx history for an address
 481 2014-04-28 06:54:17 Belxjander has joined
 482 2014-04-28 06:55:58 Milanito has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 483 2014-04-28 06:56:27 <uiop> oh nice
 484 2014-04-28 06:56:30 Milanito has joined
 485 2014-04-28 06:56:32 * uiop gets bitcoin-cli
 486 2014-04-28 06:57:31 arowser has joined
 487 2014-04-28 06:58:13 <arowser> arowser tiange
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 491 2014-04-28 07:00:36 <_andares> I'm in a situation where I want a bunch of essentially thin clients, but I need this search functionality. if my clients could verify that the history returned for an address was complete, they could rely on a central server like blockchain to do the lookup without trusting it.
 492 2014-04-28 07:01:20 Milanito has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 494 2014-04-28 07:02:01 <Belxjander> _andares: do you mean all the ThinClients are on a LAN setup with a central "HUB" for that LAN also acting as the Internet Gateway + BlockChain Service providing machine?
 495 2014-04-28 07:02:06 <jcorgan> you could have a single, local bitcoind that manages that data and acts as an RPC server for all the thin clients
 496 2014-04-28 07:02:23 <jcorgan> assuming the thin clients were on a fast local network
 497 2014-04-28 07:02:32 <wumpus> verifying completeness is hard; not even SPV clients have this guarantee (although they can improve reliablity by asking multiple peers)
 498 2014-04-28 07:02:40 ADHD has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 499 2014-04-28 07:03:06 lclc has joined
 500 2014-04-28 07:03:50 <_andares> Belxjander: no, it's a decentralized P2P network. but one of the features of the nodes requires looking up the entire history of an address
 501 2014-04-28 07:04:28 <jcorgan> unless each node maintains its own database, it will require trusting another node that does
 502 2014-04-28 07:04:33 c0rw has joined
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 504 2014-04-28 07:05:32 <_andares> without the indexes you mentioned, how efficient is listtransactions?
 505 2014-04-28 07:06:11 <jcorgan> i think that still requires one of those indexes (txindex)
 506 2014-04-28 07:06:35 <jcorgan> (not sure on that last)
 507 2014-04-28 07:06:40 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 508 2014-04-28 07:06:45 c0rw has quit (sle_!~c0rw1n@227.106-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be|Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 513 2014-04-28 07:09:36 <_andares> how much space without the indexes does the blockchain take up?
 514 2014-04-28 07:11:30 <wumpus> about 17GB
 515 2014-04-28 07:12:09 <_andares> and about how large is each block?
 516 2014-04-28 07:12:24 <wumpus> up to 1MB
 517 2014-04-28 07:12:36 Grouver has joined
 518 2014-04-28 07:13:17 <anton000> hey wumps
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 521 2014-04-28 07:16:56 <wumpus> hello
 522 2014-04-28 07:19:51 <sipa> _andares: listtransactions has nothing to do with those indexes
 523 2014-04-28 07:20:09 <sipa> _andares: listtransactions queries the wallet
 524 2014-04-28 07:20:26 <sipa> _andares: searchrawtransactions queries the blockchain
 525 2014-04-28 07:21:16 viajero has left ()
 526 2014-04-28 07:22:47 <_andares> ah, thanks for the clarification. I was wondering why it returned a null set.
 527 2014-04-28 07:23:36 <sipa> it also does not actually list transactions, ilists their effect on the wallet
 528 2014-04-28 07:24:28 <gmaxwell> 00:01 < _andares> Belxjander: no, it's a decentralized P2P network. but one of the features of the nodes requires looking up the entire history of an address
 529 2014-04-28 07:24:43 <gmaxwell> nodes have no such facility in general (a wallet knows only about its own transactions)
 530 2014-04-28 07:25:01 kobayashi_ has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
 531 2014-04-28 07:25:06 <gmaxwell> oh you're saying you want it. sorry.
 532 2014-04-28 07:27:06 <_andares> ah yes. I am wondering if I can make do in SPV mode somehow
 533 2014-04-28 07:27:31 <sipa> no
 534 2014-04-28 07:27:59 Lexa has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 535 2014-04-28 07:28:00 <sipa> there is no way to query for all transactions related to an address
 536 2014-04-28 07:28:16 <sipa> there is not even a way to query a specific transaction by txid
 537 2014-04-28 07:28:27 <_andares> right, you can only request blocks
 538 2014-04-28 07:28:38 soulblade738 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 539 2014-04-28 07:28:38 <sipa> because nodes should not be burdened by needing to index all that
 540 2014-04-28 07:28:52 <_andares> agreed.
 541 2014-04-28 07:28:52 <sipa> as ot is no requirement for a functioning network
 542 2014-04-28 07:29:20 <sipa> can anyone do a 32-bit build of #4100?
 543 2014-04-28 07:29:34 <sipa> i can't reproduce pulltester's failure
 544 2014-04-28 07:30:13 <_andares> but an SPV client can ask a peer for a transaction from its memory pool, can't it?
 545 2014-04-28 07:30:16 Malakai33 has joined
 546 2014-04-28 07:30:18 <_andares> I seet hat in the bitcoinj source code
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 551 2014-04-28 07:34:02 <sipa> _andares: yes
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 561 2014-04-28 07:46:13 <coder123> if i build bitcoind in ubuntu and use testnet will it still try to download the main chain in the background?
 562 2014-04-28 07:46:37 <coder123> i'm trying to start coding but don't want to wait 2-3 days for the block chain to sync ;(
 563 2014-04-28 07:46:50 <coder123> just want to start testing my code with bitcoind
 564 2014-04-28 07:46:58 <buZz> a) you can use bootstrap.dat, b) this is not a topic for #bitcoin-dev
 565 2014-04-28 07:47:11 <coder123> buZz: which channel would be better to dicsuss this?
 566 2014-04-28 07:47:16 <buZz> #bitcoin ;)
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 570 2014-04-28 07:47:48 <coder123> thanks i'll post there... does the test net chain take days to sync as well?
 571 2014-04-28 07:47:57 <sipa> if you run bitcoind in testnet mode, it will obviously only sync the testnet network
 572 2014-04-28 07:51:11 <coder123> thanks sips, any idea how many hrs it takes to sync testnet?
 573 2014-04-28 07:51:13 <_andares> are transactions being pruned off the Merkle tree today?
 574 2014-04-28 07:51:15 <coder123> sipa*
 575 2014-04-28 07:54:03 <sipa> coder123: maybe one
 576 2014-04-28 07:54:11 <coder123> great, thanks!
 577 2014-04-28 07:55:02 <sipa> _andares: spv nodes downloaded filtered blocks, with just the one relevant to them in it
 578 2014-04-28 07:55:48 <sipa> _andares: and receive a partial merkle tree with it to prove that those transactions actually belong to the downloaded blkck
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 580 2014-04-28 07:57:17 <sipa> but that is only on the network
 581 2014-04-28 07:57:25 <sipa> they are always stored in full
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 583 2014-04-28 08:00:50 <_andares> sipa: so if an SPV node's 8 peers (somehow) lied to it and returned zero block headers, the node would conclude it had 0 BTC in its wallet?
 584 2014-04-28 08:01:08 <_andares> assuming it had no cached blockchain data
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 589 2014-04-28 08:04:41 <sipa> _andares: correct
 590 2014-04-28 08:05:00 <_andares> how do the spv nodes ask for all transactions their wallet has been in?
 591 2014-04-28 08:05:09 <sipa> _andares: read bip 37
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 604 2014-04-28 08:17:05 <_andares> so my client could set a bloom filter for the accounts it's interested in, and then start requesting block headers from the peers
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 607 2014-04-28 08:17:27 <_andares> I guess I have to query 210k blocks though
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 612 2014-04-28 08:20:12 <maaku> _andares: wallet birthdays
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 614 2014-04-28 08:21:10 <sipa> not block headers; blocks
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 623 2014-04-28 08:36:56 <coder123> interestingly, SPV wallets leak privacy, -- by only asking for headers to blocks of relevant transactions -- attackers can connect to all nodes and then see who's asking for what, and try to deduce which addresses are controlled by the wallets of each node
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 628 2014-04-28 08:44:16 <_andares> sipa: you're right, blocks. but only the blocks participating in a transaction with that account will be returned to me
 629 2014-04-28 08:44:19 <_andares> which may not be too many
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 631 2014-04-28 08:45:24 * ndak [A MESSAGE] BRB
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 633 2014-04-28 08:47:43 <kinlo> coder123: bloom filters should obscure that
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 637 2014-04-28 08:51:23 <coder123> kinlo:  does multi bit use bloom filters?
 638 2014-04-28 08:51:47 <kinlo> coder123: either it does, or it downloads entire blocks and filters locally
 639 2014-04-28 08:52:01 <kinlo> the bitcoin protocol doesn't allow to query for 1 address
 640 2014-04-28 08:52:11 <kinlo> so in both cases your privacy is guaranteed
 641 2014-04-28 08:52:41 <coder123> seems like some data would still be leaked -- but i'll do some further reading
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 673 2014-04-28 09:36:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why is undo data in blocks/ and not in chainstate/?
 674 2014-04-28 09:36:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Or do I misunderstand what that data is?)
 675 2014-04-28 09:37:08 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: I always wonder about that too
 676 2014-04-28 09:37:36 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: might because of the access pattern (rarely accessed, big files)
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 684 2014-04-28 09:46:43 <sipa> because it is per-block data
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 686 2014-04-28 09:47:21 <sipa> and it is referenced by blocks/index
 687 2014-04-28 09:47:38 <sipa> the blocks directory and chainstate directory are independent from eachother
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 689 2014-04-28 09:47:49 <sipa> you can copy one without copying the other
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 697 2014-04-28 09:51:37 <sipa> or another way of seeing it: blocks are forward patches to the chainstate
 698 2014-04-28 09:51:47 <sipa> undo data are reverse patches
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 700 2014-04-28 09:52:03 <sipa> michagogo|cloud, wumpus: does that make sense?
 701 2014-04-28 09:52:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: maybe...
 702 2014-04-28 09:53:11 <sipa> the reason is chainstate and blocks being independent
 703 2014-04-28 09:53:32 <sipa> so you can copy the chainstate without blocks, or the other way around
 704 2014-04-28 09:53:50 <sipa> everything in blocks/ is about the block tree, not the active chain
 705 2014-04-28 09:54:08 <sipa> chainstate/ is about the active chain only and not the blocks
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 710 2014-04-28 09:56:35 <sipa> kinlo, coder123: in practice bloom filters gain you very little privacy
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 713 2014-04-28 09:57:55 <sipa> as the false positive rate goes up very rapidly if you don't reset the filter from time to time
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 721 2014-04-28 10:02:29 <hearn> sipa: that’s a quirk of the current implementation though, right? we could fix it by tracking hits on outpoints outside the filter and making them non probabilistic
 722 2014-04-28 10:02:43 <hearn> or at least make the problem less severe
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 731 2014-04-28 10:13:22 <sipa> hearn: yeah, it can certainly be improved i think
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 752 2014-04-28 10:38:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: ah, I see what you're saying
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 754 2014-04-28 10:39:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The information in chainstate/ is only what's current and being used
 755 2014-04-28 10:39:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Erm, maybe I don't
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 758 2014-04-28 10:40:05 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: chainstate/ contains data per-txout, blocks/ contains data per-block
 759 2014-04-28 10:40:07 <ndak> hi. i want to install a Openvpnserver + PEM for my VPS. I am new and i need this asap, I want use my own VPN because its cheaper. :) I am using Debian 7 and I will pay you for the work /msg me
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 761 2014-04-28 10:40:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Are the rev*.dat files not chainstate-specific?
 762 2014-04-28 10:40:22 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: no
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 764 2014-04-28 10:40:42 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: not more than blk*.dat are chainstate-specific
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 766 2014-04-28 10:41:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What is in rev?
 767 2014-04-28 10:41:14 <sipa> how to unapply the effects done by a block to the chainstate
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 769 2014-04-28 10:41:36 <sipa> but they're not specific to *your* chainstate directory
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 771 2014-04-28 10:41:52 <sipa> everyone has byte-for-byte the same undo data for each block
 772 2014-04-28 10:42:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why are they needed?
 773 2014-04-28 10:42:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Can't you use the block data?
 774 2014-04-28 10:42:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, wait
 775 2014-04-28 10:42:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You'd need txindex
 776 2014-04-28 10:42:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Because a transaction deletes outputs from the chainstate
 777 2014-04-28 10:43:11 <sipa> you'd need to find the earlier block that added them
 778 2014-04-28 10:43:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So is it: when a transaction in a block is processed, it's inputs are deleted from chainstate and added to rev*.dat?
 779 2014-04-28 10:43:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The STXO set, as it were?
 780 2014-04-28 10:44:27 <sipa> indeed, it's a list of the TXOs spent by a particular block
 781 2014-04-28 10:44:44 <sipa> and it's small, because it has no signatures
 782 2014-04-28 10:44:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why is- Ahhhh
 783 2014-04-28 10:45:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You anticipated my question
 784 2014-04-28 10:45:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And the scriptSig is a big part of transactions
 785 2014-04-28 10:46:00 CheckDavid has joined
 786 2014-04-28 10:46:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Since it's a signature and a pubkey
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 788 2014-04-28 10:46:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, I think I understand now :)
 789 2014-04-28 10:46:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So the rev*.dats are append-only like blk*.dat are?
 790 2014-04-28 10:46:42 <sipa> indeed
 791 2014-04-28 10:46:54 <sipa> and they contain corresponding data
 792 2014-04-28 10:47:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So it's just more data about each block
 793 2014-04-28 10:47:09 <sipa> correct
 794 2014-04-28 10:47:17 <sipa> everything in blocks/ is block-specific data
 795 2014-04-28 10:47:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Aha.
 796 2014-04-28 10:47:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why isn't it just in blk*.dat?
 797 2014-04-28 10:47:58 <sipa> backwards compatibility, i guess
 798 2014-04-28 10:48:07 <sipa> with tools that expected block files in a particular format
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 800 2014-04-28 10:48:39 <wumpus> sipa: yes, makes sense
 801 2014-04-28 10:48:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, was it not always there?
 802 2014-04-28 10:49:04 <wumpus> I think it's nice that the blkXXX files contain just the block data received from the network, nothing more
 803 2014-04-28 10:50:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm. Is rev*.dat trusted data?
 804 2014-04-28 10:50:27 <sipa> yes
 805 2014-04-28 10:50:44 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: until 0.7, we only had blk*.dat and blkindex.dat
 806 2014-04-28 10:50:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No utxo db?
 807 2014-04-28 10:51:01 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: and blkindex.dat contained for each transaction output where it was spent (if spent at all)
 808 2014-04-28 10:51:05 <sipa> no
 809 2014-04-28 10:51:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ahhh
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 812 2014-04-28 10:51:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, interesting
 813 2014-04-28 10:51:33 <sipa> i wonder how long 0.7 would take to sync today :)
 814 2014-04-28 10:51:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wait, so blkindex.dat was a txindex?
 815 2014-04-28 10:51:54 <sipa> yes
 816 2014-04-28 10:52:00 <sipa> and more than that
 817 2014-04-28 10:52:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Interesting
 818 2014-04-28 10:52:13 <sipa> it took 12 bytes per txout ever created
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 821 2014-04-28 10:54:31 <sipa> it would be a database of several GB today, i think
 822 2014-04-28 10:54:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So with the introduction of the utxo set, the txindex became optional and off-by-default, I assume?
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 824 2014-04-28 10:55:38 <sipa> indeed
 825 2014-04-28 10:56:00 <sipa> blkindex.dat functioned as UTXO set, txindex, and block undo data
 826 2014-04-28 10:56:09 <sipa> in 0.8, those 3 functions were split up
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 828 2014-04-28 10:56:27 <sipa> so that the UTXO set (which is vastly more frequently accessed than the others) could be optimized
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 832 2014-04-28 10:59:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So right now, by default, is there a record of which block a given utxo is in?
 833 2014-04-28 10:59:12 <sipa> indirectly
 834 2014-04-28 10:59:19 <sipa> the UTXO encodes the height at which it was created
 835 2014-04-28 10:59:28 <sipa> which uniquely identifies a block in the chai
 836 2014-04-28 10:59:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay. So, how come undo data includes the whole txin?
 837 2014-04-28 11:00:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why not just hash, vout, and height?
 838 2014-04-28 11:00:27 <sipa> because it's about utxo entries that were deleted
 839 2014-04-28 11:00:37 <sipa> the undo data is necessary to recreate them
 840 2014-04-28 11:01:01 <sipa> ah, wait
 841 2014-04-28 11:01:16 <ndak> hi. i want to install a Openvpnserver + PEM for my VPS. I am new and i need this asap, I want use my own VPN because its cheaper. :) I am using Debian 7 and I will pay you for the work /msg me
 842 2014-04-28 11:01:22 <sipa> ndak: not here
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 844 2014-04-28 11:02:09 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: that'd require seeking through perhaps hundreds of block files to undo one block
 845 2014-04-28 11:02:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: ah, right.
 846 2014-04-28 11:03:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|When that thought came to me, I missed the fact that the utxos would need to be recovered in large batches
 847 2014-04-28 11:04:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, how about storing the full txo for the past n blocks and beyond that just storing the block pointer?
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 849 2014-04-28 11:05:11 <wumpus> that'd imply a lot of copying
 850 2014-04-28 11:05:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, right. Copying or fragmentation
 851 2014-04-28 11:05:53 d34th has joined
 852 2014-04-28 11:06:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Or empty blocks, which defeats the purpose)
 853 2014-04-28 11:06:10 <wumpus> 'reverse patches' only contain what is changed, so that's the more efficient way given the access pattern (ie, almost write-only)
 854 2014-04-28 11:06:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Er, wait, why?
 855 2014-04-28 11:06:38 <wumpus> (more efficient than writing the whole UTXO set to disk for each block)
 856 2014-04-28 11:06:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why not jus-oh, wait
 857 2014-04-28 11:06:42 <sipa> to disconnect a block, all you need to read is the block and its undo data
 858 2014-04-28 11:06:48 <sipa> and apply that to the UTXO set
 859 2014-04-28 11:06:53 <sipa> no seeking whatsoever
 860 2014-04-28 11:06:55 <wumpus> right, I think it's quite ingenious
 861 2014-04-28 11:07:03 <sipa> :)
 862 2014-04-28 11:07:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I was kinda thinking in terms of disk space
 863 2014-04-28 11:07:26 <sipa> if we care about that, we should implement pruning
 864 2014-04-28 11:07:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right
 865 2014-04-28 11:08:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|By the time it gets to the point that changing full txouts for block pointers will make a big difference, we should already have pruning
 866 2014-04-28 11:08:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Or put it in)
 867 2014-04-28 11:08:48 <wumpus> I suppose you could remove the undo files for more than 1000 blocks ago, and do a full reindex in case a reorganization that big happens, but it would be disastrous if *everyone* had to do that
 868 2014-04-28 11:08:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And in the meantime this is better for performance
 869 2014-04-28 11:09:54 <sipa> so, when designing the undo data stuff, there were two choices: either make it standalone (so you don't need the actual block to undo a block), or make it complementary
 870 2014-04-28 11:10:12 <sipa> i tried both in disk usage, and the standalone was around 1/3 of the size of actual blocks
 871 2014-04-28 11:10:32 <sipa> the other (which is what is used now) is around 1/10
 872 2014-04-28 11:10:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why do you need the actual block again?
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 874 2014-04-28 11:10:56 <sipa> to know which txouts were created by the block, so you can remove them
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 876 2014-04-28 11:11:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, of course.
 877 2014-04-28 11:11:07 <churchill2> i downloaded the client but the sha256sum isn't as in the signature
 878 2014-04-28 11:11:09 <sipa> really just the txids of the block
 879 2014-04-28 11:11:37 <wumpus> churchill2: what file did you download?
 880 2014-04-28 11:11:49 <churchill2> wumpus, bitcoin-0.9.1-linux.tar.gz
 881 2014-04-28 11:11:54 <sipa> from where?
 882 2014-04-28 11:12:23 <churchill2> https://bitcoin.org/en/download
 883 2014-04-28 11:12:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What hash did you get?
 884 2014-04-28 11:13:01 <wumpus> whoa
 885 2014-04-28 11:13:16 <churchill2> michagogo|cloud, 4e0d202d6b14a....
 886 2014-04-28 11:13:32 <wumpus> mine matches the signature
 887 2014-04-28 11:13:32 <uiop> dwarf's CFI (call frame information) system for unwinding the callstack (which uses a little stack machine language too) is nicely done imo, and is kind of related at idea level. reading about it if full of thoroughly debugged and honed ideas
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 889 2014-04-28 11:13:48 <wumpus> just downloaded and got the sha256sum 3fabc1c629007b465a278525883663d41a2ba62699f2773536a8bf59ca210425  bitcoin-0.9.1-linux.tar.gz.1
 890 2014-04-28 11:14:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I match as well
 891 2014-04-28 11:14:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Try redownload ong
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 893 2014-04-28 11:14:18 <churchill2> my file size is 35,667,653 bytes
 894 2014-04-28 11:14:19 <wumpus> can you upload your 'corrupted' file somewhere?
 895 2014-04-28 11:14:22 <wumpus> I'd like to compare it
 896 2014-04-28 11:14:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Redownloading*
 897 2014-04-28 11:14:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yep, too small
 898 2014-04-28 11:14:34 <uiop> (re: undo-trails, and (second-order-relatedness) a special-purpose stack vm bytecode lang)
 899 2014-04-28 11:14:36 <wumpus> -rw-rw-r-- 1 orion orion 45665893 Apr  8 20:47 bitcoin-0.9.1-linux.tar.gz.1
 900 2014-04-28 11:14:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I have 45665893
 901 2014-04-28 11:14:48 <wumpus> ok, probably just got cut off
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 903 2014-04-28 11:14:57 <churchill2> michagogo|cloud, strange, it didn't happen before. thanks
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 906 2014-04-28 11:15:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: try chopping off the end?
 907 2014-04-28 11:15:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Not on a machine with Linux or Cygwin)
 908 2014-04-28 11:16:21 <wumpus> 4e0d202d6b14ad8ec1a2f90be623ffdb4a787472e6972e0f3cb04c85a67dce46  bitcoin-0.9.1-linux.tar.gz.2
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 910 2014-04-28 11:16:26 <wumpus> yep... chopped off it matches
 911 2014-04-28 11:16:27 <wumpus> phew
 912 2014-04-28 11:16:57 <wumpus> we can breathe again :)
 913 2014-04-28 11:16:59 <uiop> heh, those short moments of dread when you think the hash doesn't match
 914 2014-04-28 11:17:07 <sipa> i'm happy to see that people actually check that hash
 915 2014-04-28 11:17:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Indeed!
 916 2014-04-28 11:17:22 <stonecoldpat> +1
 917 2014-04-28 11:17:36 <stonecoldpat> +1
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 920 2014-04-28 11:18:14 <uiop> the dread is so huge when it takes 30 minutes an attempt to compute the hash (i just backed up my hdd and upgrades laptop yesterday, the horror)
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 923 2014-04-28 11:23:48 <uiop> here's the enum for DW_OP dwarf cfi opcodes http://gcc.gnu.org/git/?p=gcc.git;a=blob;f=include/dwarf2.def;h=71a37b30c9f87b429bab08a4a420caa9a6385503;hb=HEAD#l411
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 927 2014-04-28 11:26:13 <uiop> also, i'm a big fan of the {.def,.h} system thing going on here too (for things like this) http://gcc.gnu.org/git/?p=gcc.git;a=blob;f=include/dwarf2.h;h=120e2c16b4820f823c75ab8b2aa7c00bab6291fa;hb=HEAD#l77
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 932 2014-04-28 11:29:35 <uiop> (DW_OP_form_tls_address,DW_OP_call_frame_cfa,DW_OP_GNU_push_tls_address) are some of the analogous insns to the crypto/sig/verification macro-opcodes in bitcoin script
 933 2014-04-28 11:31:13 Neozonz has quit (Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 934 2014-04-28 11:34:00 <wumpus> uiop: yes, dwarf is pretty crazy, it's a hell of a lot of work to interpret (and there have been exploits in some versions of the interpreters), but it's like that for a good reason
 935 2014-04-28 11:34:54 <uiop>  how it works is: the stack vm opcode script computes the values that each register needs to be restored with, along with the address of the next callframe. run script on curr call frame, now your simulated (registers,retaddr) machine state is unwound one frame, locate cfi program associated with callframe you just computed, loop.
 936 2014-04-28 11:34:57 <wumpus> it's a hard problem so it really needs a complex solution like this
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 938 2014-04-28 11:37:09 <wumpus> the same language is used to reconstruct values of parameters and variables at arbitrary locations of the source code, even sometimes if optimized out
 939 2014-04-28 11:37:23 <uiop> wumpus: i read this one paper that talked about the possibility to write malicious cfi programs, but in practice all the dwarf interpreters in the actual std toolchain(s) won't, for instance, execute loops of subroutine calls
 940 2014-04-28 11:37:24 <wumpus> (though, even with all this C++ debugging manages to suck a lot of the time)
 941 2014-04-28 11:37:40 <uiop> *exec loops _or_ subroutine calls
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 943 2014-04-28 11:38:23 <churchill2> hi
 944 2014-04-28 11:38:45 <uiop> wumpus: right, it also can reconstruct the (conceptual, never fully computed at once) line number table...
 945 2014-04-28 11:38:55 <uiop> dwarf does so much stuff it's crazy
 946 2014-04-28 11:39:20 <churchill2> i'm trying to run the client but i get: bitcoin-qt: Syntax error: "(" unexpected
 947 2014-04-28 11:40:21 <sipa> run? you're not compiling it, are you?
 948 2014-04-28 11:40:38 <churchill2> no
 949 2014-04-28 11:41:55 <sipa> you're not accidentally typing ". bitcoin-qt" rather than "./bitcoin-qt" ?
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 951 2014-04-28 11:42:32 <churchill2> sipa, all's good now
 952 2014-04-28 11:42:40 <uiop> wumpus: totally, a complicated multiobjective problem that doesn't have a simple solution
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 955 2014-04-28 11:43:15 <churchill2> sipa, what's the difference between ./ and sh ?
 956 2014-04-28 11:43:40 <sipa> this is not #unix
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 961 2014-04-28 11:48:05 <uiop> here's a marathon run or 5 http://gcc.gnu.org/git/?p=gcc.git;a=blob;f=gcc/dwarf2out.c;h=12723265e879ce34852e12e284bbbd5aae1490d1;hb=HEAD
 962 2014-04-28 11:48:39 <uiop> 24397 lines gcc /dwarf2out.c
 963 2014-04-28 11:48:45 <uiop> ouch
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 966 2014-04-28 11:49:27 <sipa> fun
 967 2014-04-28 11:51:38 <uiop> iirc there's one DW_OP interpreter in each of gdb, glibc (i think), libffi, it's been a while since i looked
 968 2014-04-28 11:51:50 <uiop> sipa: it hurts so good
 969 2014-04-28 11:51:56 <sipa> in glibc? :o
 970 2014-04-28 11:51:57 <sipa> why
 971 2014-04-28 11:52:11 <uiop> for backtrace*()
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 974 2014-04-28 11:55:03 <wumpus> I think it's the one in glibc that was used for an exploit at some point
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 981 2014-04-28 11:58:54 <uiop> here's execute_stack_op(..) http://repo.or.cz/w/glibc.git/blob/HEAD:/sysdeps/generic/unwind-dw2.c#l326
 982 2014-04-28 11:59:16 <uiop> interp switch(){}
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 985 2014-04-28 12:00:09 <uiop> (the _Unwind_*(..) functions are standardized)
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 988 2014-04-28 12:01:10 <uiop> oh, and exec_cfa_program(..) here http://repo.or.cz/w/glibc.git/blob/HEAD:/sysdeps/generic/unwind-dw2.c#l731
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 990 2014-04-28 12:01:29 <uiop> wumpus: nice, that'd be interesting to see
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 995 2014-04-28 12:05:39 <uiop> fs->regs.reg[reg].loc.offset          /*C is awesome*/
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 999 2014-04-28 12:12:24 <uiop> sipa: (re: why in glibc) backtrace*(..) and the c++ abi runtime support functions make use of a standardized (c interface) lib that glibc provides
1000 2014-04-28 12:12:39 <uiop> sipa: reading that interpreter code made me remember
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1002 2014-04-28 12:13:11 <uiop> (the _Unwind* stuff)
1003 2014-04-28 12:14:06 <uiop> that interpreter gets run every time a C++ exception is thrown!
1004 2014-04-28 12:14:47 <uiop> (every?)
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1036 2014-04-28 12:56:06 <melvster> does anyone know if there's an open source / free software faucet out there?
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1101 2014-04-28 14:22:35 <lclc> Where and how do you (the Bitcoin Core developers) decide e.g. what technologie you want to use for xy?   How to implement something when there are several ways? Who's going to make the decision? do you vote (e.g. each core dev) in a merocratic group like Debian?
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1109 2014-04-28 14:27:08 <Emcy_> consensus
1110 2014-04-28 14:27:13 <Emcy_> common sense
1111 2014-04-28 14:27:33 <Emcy_> vote as a last resort
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1113 2014-04-28 14:28:14 <sipa> lclc: if it's just local implementation (without impact on the network, or protocol changes), it's usually just the one who implements it that decides (of course, with input from others, but the one coding it is often also the one who understands the problem best)
1114 2014-04-28 14:28:41 <sipa> for protocol changes (which are quite rare...), it always after discussion on the bitcoin-development mailinglist
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1117 2014-04-28 14:29:41 <lclc> Ok, but for example you decide to use boost for networking and multithreading instead of ZMQ and c++11. Who decides that?  (I know, that was more historic, but just as an example)
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1120 2014-04-28 14:31:04 <gavinandresen> Satoshi decided that, then inertia (and years of security/peer review that we don't want to throw out) keeps us from changing to the latest&greatest new thing-a-ma-bob
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1122 2014-04-28 14:31:30 <sipa> i don't think you should see it as "decisions"; every step is an increment change
1123 2014-04-28 14:31:43 <sipa> and sometimes someone suggests making a change, because it has certain benefits
1124 2014-04-28 14:31:57 <sipa> and that's either rejected or accepted by consensus
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1128 2014-04-28 14:34:44 <Emcy_> assuming every aspect of bitcoin core was desinged and blueprinted from scratch is wrong
1129 2014-04-28 14:35:07 <sipa> for example, nobody ever decided "against" ZMQ as far as I know... there was an implementation at some point, but it wasn't maintained
1130 2014-04-28 14:35:25 <Emcy_> it has evolved much more organically than that, according to what people wanted/needed to work on at a particular time. Its been interestng to watch
1131 2014-04-28 14:35:30 <lclc> sure, that wasn't the question. It's more about comming decisions about technologies for specific tasks (which might affect later tasks)
1132 2014-04-28 14:36:06 <Emcy_> the project lead?
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1134 2014-04-28 14:36:49 <Emcy_> i think this project operates on what is known in oss as the BDFL model......
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1137 2014-04-28 14:37:16 <lclc> that wouldn't be very FOSS-like IMHO. I expected the core devs to vote on such things
1138 2014-04-28 14:37:28 <sipa> i don't think we've ever needed a vote
1139 2014-04-28 14:37:44 <Emcy_> some things are. coinbase voting has been done
1140 2014-04-28 14:37:53 <sipa> Emcy_: that was about a protocol change
1141 2014-04-28 14:38:03 <sipa> that doesn't seem to be what lclc is asking about
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1143 2014-04-28 14:38:40 <Emcy_> I think if devs cant come to consensus due to fundamental difference of opinion or trolling or w/e, everyone just gets sick of it and puts the issue ont he back burner for a while
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1147 2014-04-28 14:40:19 <Emcy_> lclc there is a dev mailing list you know. Also a lot of things are hammered out right here
1148 2014-04-28 14:40:40 <sipa> very little bitcoin-core-internal implementation stuff though
1149 2014-04-28 14:40:41 <Emcy_> pressing circumstances tend to be handled here
1150 2014-04-28 14:40:44 <sipa> that doesn't belong there
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1153 2014-04-28 14:41:15 <maraoz> gmaxwell: regarding p2sh multisig bip32 structure discussion on mailing list, should I submit a BIP draft to the list, or request a BIP number and issue a pull request to bitcoin/bips?
1154 2014-04-28 14:41:39 <Emcy_> i would say probably the implementation nitty gritty is done on github pull threads right?
1155 2014-04-28 14:41:42 <lclc> ok, so, so far technology decisions in bitcoin have never been a discussion since they were always clear. But they would if needed
1156 2014-04-28 14:41:52 <Luke-Jr> maraoz: read BIP 1
1157 2014-04-28 14:42:01 <sipa> lclc: hell yes there have been discussions
1158 2014-04-28 14:42:09 <sipa> lclc: but if there is no consensus, a change doesn't happen
1159 2014-04-28 14:42:30 <lclc> ok thanks.
1160 2014-04-28 14:42:32 <Luke-Jr> sipa: that's not true..
1161 2014-04-28 14:42:43 <lclc> just wanted to know how BItcoin does it for another FOSS project
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1164 2014-04-28 14:42:56 <sipa> (talking about core implementation stuff here, and consensus among core devs)
1165 2014-04-28 14:43:01 <Emcy_> im not sure i would say bitcoin core has something that could be considered a roadmap.........
1166 2014-04-28 14:43:06 <Emcy_> unles there is something i havent seen
1167 2014-04-28 14:43:10 <sipa> not about network level changes, where far more people are affected and involved
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1169 2014-04-28 14:44:32 <Emcy_> prptocol changes have been put out to vote on the blockchain once or twice, which is a very interesting way to do things for foss
1170 2014-04-28 14:45:07 <Emcy_> and necessary, no other project is quite like this once
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1175 2014-04-28 14:48:21 <Emcy_> apart from perculiarities like that, i dont hink this project operates much differently from any other lively and successful foss project
1176 2014-04-28 14:48:40 <maraoz> Luke-Jr: thanks, found it
1177 2014-04-28 14:48:49 <Emcy_> that is to say getting shit done with a minimum of politics if anyone can help it
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1194 2014-04-28 15:02:52 <tyrick> where are cs_Shutdown and lockShutdown defined in the Shutdown() function within init.cpp
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1196 2014-04-28 15:04:16 <sipa> TRY_LOCK(a, b) tries to lock a, and puts the result in a new variable b
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1198 2014-04-28 15:04:30 <sipa> so b can be tested to see whether locking succeeded
1199 2014-04-28 15:04:37 <sipa> it's defined in sync.h
1200 2014-04-28 15:05:02 <tyrick> Well, I see that TRY_LOCK is defined there
1201 2014-04-28 15:05:17 <tyrick> but where is cs_Shutdown definied
1202 2014-04-28 15:05:26 <sipa> the line above
1203 2014-04-28 15:05:26 <tyrick> the 'a' that is being locked
1204 2014-04-28 15:05:58 <sipa> static CCriticalSection cs_Shutdown;
1205 2014-04-28 15:08:27 <tyrick> Okay, I just explored it a bit more
1206 2014-04-28 15:08:54 <tyrick> So there is a recusive mutex lock on cs_Shutdown
1207 2014-04-28 15:09:30 <sipa> yes
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1209 2014-04-28 15:09:57 <tyrick> Then what? I can not find any other uses of the cs_Shutdown resource in the project
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1211 2014-04-28 15:10:18 <sipa> there can't be, the variable is only defined within Shutdown()
1212 2014-04-28 15:10:37 <sipa> it prevents multiple invocations of that function from operating at the same time
1213 2014-04-28 15:10:49 <tyrick> Ah!
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1215 2014-04-28 15:11:06 <tyrick> lol... I was totally making a big deal out of nothing
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1217 2014-04-28 15:14:34 <tyrick> There are better ways of ensuring that a function is only called once
1218 2014-04-28 15:15:08 <tyrick> Is there a reason for this particular way?
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1227 2014-04-28 15:23:50 <sipa> tyrick: for example?
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1230 2014-04-28 15:25:14 <tyrick> A static variable within the function that manages its usage
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1233 2014-04-28 15:26:14 <tyrick> I guess the benefit of using a mutex would be that it is an atomic operation
1234 2014-04-28 15:26:45 <Arnavion> Go read up what a critical section is
1235 2014-04-28 15:26:49 <tyrick> I suppose an interrupt could happen while the program was in the process of checking that functions static variable
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1237 2014-04-28 15:27:03 <sipa> c++11 has atomic variables, which would allow that
1238 2014-04-28 15:27:22 <sipa> but without, just a static variable isn't thread safe for this usage
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1277 2014-04-28 15:51:22 <tyrick> Another question, Shutdown() is called in AppInit(), and unless lockShutdown is false, the program will close.  if TRY_LOCK(a, b) places the result in b, does this mean that a was not able to be locked on startup?
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1281 2014-04-28 15:58:27 <wumpus> the idea is that only one thread can get the shutdown lock (and thus perform the shutdown)
1282 2014-04-28 15:59:20 <wumpus> a try-lock is used so that other threads will fall through and exit so that they're not in the way, instead of waiting for the lock
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1284 2014-04-28 15:59:42 <yoyoceramic> Are there any gists or guides on how to use a proof of assets scheme on a series of multisignature addresses?
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1289 2014-04-28 16:03:57 <tyrick> Thanks for the answers btw.  But the shutdown() that is called in AppInit() is on a single thread right?
1290 2014-04-28 16:04:22 <tyrick> Or rather, AppInit() is on a single thread
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1294 2014-04-28 16:05:26 <tyrick> and is the first function to call Shutdown(), and I would assume the main thread would get the lock
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1308 2014-04-28 16:16:46 <dexx> hey sipa, i'm using a modified version of your address indexed branch and noticed in the case of orphaned blocks some transactions have a reference to the orphan instead of one to the active chain in which they were included nevertheless. i was wondering, if i introduced this somehow or if it was known before
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1345 2014-04-28 16:58:39 <petertodd> dexx: when I tested it ages ago there was some weirdness going on with incorrect indexing that I never figured out; sounds vaguely plausible
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1357 2014-04-28 17:08:41 <dexX7> petertodd: what kind of weirdness?
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1362 2014-04-28 17:10:18 <petertodd> dexX7: IIRC all things missing from the index; my comments should be on github somewhere
1363 2014-04-28 17:11:42 <dexX7> the only problem i faced until now besides the orphaned block references are crashes due to too many open files, but this is probably unrelated to the addrindex branch itself
1364 2014-04-28 17:12:27 <petertodd> interesting, maybe the problems I saw got fixed?
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1366 2014-04-28 17:13:01 <petertodd> like I say, I was testing this right when it came out
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1369 2014-04-28 17:16:19 <dexX7> well, only because i'm not aware of problems doesn't mean there are none
1370 2014-04-28 17:18:07 <dexX7> https://github.com/dexX7/bitcoin/tree/addrindex based on 0.9-ish
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1379 2014-04-28 17:34:29 <maaku> hearn: For a non-bitcoin purpose I need to modify the payment protocol to add an additional field. I'd rather maintain future compatability with upstream, if possible. How should I select the protocol buffer field number for this new field?
1380 2014-04-28 17:34:52 <hearn> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0070.mediawiki#Extensibility
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1382 2014-04-28 17:35:19 <hearn> if your payment requests will go outside your own controlled world, pick a number or range of numbers, and reserve them on that page
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1386 2014-04-28 17:35:54 <hearn> if you want to make an extension that could become a standard, well, i guess just pick the next available numbers after the ones BIP 70 use. as long as nobody else is going to use those numbers, it’s not a big deal
1387 2014-04-28 17:36:10 <hearn> just announce that you’re doing it on the -development list i guess
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1391 2014-04-28 17:37:09 <maaku> well it's a field (reference height) which only has to do with demurrage / interest rates on Freicoin, so it's exceedingly unlikely to ever make it back into bitcoin
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1394 2014-04-28 17:38:20 <hearn> then just grab an extension field by submitting a pull req to that file
1395 2014-04-28 17:38:20 <maaku> but if you're willing to reserve an extension value for that then it's no problem, as that's the best solution
1396 2014-04-28 17:38:27 <hearn> sure, of course. they’re only numbers
1397 2014-04-28 17:38:33 <maaku> thank you
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1400 2014-04-28 17:41:13 <petertodd> maaku: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0070/extensions.mediawiki <- that's specifically the extensions page FWIW
1401 2014-04-28 17:41:24 <maaku> petertodd: thanks
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1403 2014-04-28 17:43:55 <hearn> oops, thought i pasted that. thanks.
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1500 2014-04-28 19:24:26 <jcorgan> dexX7: i forward ported sipa's addrindex patch as PR #3652, it's still fresh against current master, you may want to compare behavior with yours
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1567 2014-04-28 20:31:26 <TravelingTeen> Is it possible to create a raw sendmany transaction without using createrawtransacation because with that I have to specify all the inputs, and change addresses and its really a pita to do lol, I need it to be raw because it will be unsigned and then Ill move it to my offline wallet to sign before sending out on the live wallet
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1576 2014-04-28 20:35:56 <jcorgan> !ops
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1595 2014-04-28 20:45:22 <buellersdayoff> Is there a way to sign a message using several bitcoin private keys?
1596 2014-04-28 20:46:31 <buellersdayoff> The application would be to prove you control m of n signatures on a p2sh address
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1599 2014-04-28 20:49:00 <belcher> buellersdayoff sign the same message with each of the keys?
1600 2014-04-28 20:49:09 <buellersdayoff> Right
1601 2014-04-28 20:49:14 <belcher> and send over all the signatures
1602 2014-04-28 20:49:17 <belcher> along with the message
1603 2014-04-28 20:49:23 <buellersdayoff> Right, is there a way to do that?
1604 2014-04-28 20:49:39 <belcher> yeah loads of clients allow you to sign messages
1605 2014-04-28 20:49:54 <buellersdayoff> You can sign one message with multiple private keys though?
1606 2014-04-28 20:50:05 <belcher> not at the same time
1607 2014-04-28 20:50:12 <belcher> sign it one by one
1608 2014-04-28 20:50:50 <buellersdayoff> So would you end up with one message, able to be verified with different private keys?
1609 2014-04-28 20:51:41 <belcher> probably not, but thats just a formatting issue
1610 2014-04-28 20:52:04 <belcher> you could invent a format that takes multiple signatures, has the - in all the right places
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1612 2014-04-28 20:53:33 <travelingTeen> Not sure if anyone replied to my question about creating raw sendmany transactions but is there any kind of api for making custom raw transactions? The only way to use cold storage is with a raw transactions right?
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1617 2014-04-28 21:00:30 <belcher> idk
1618 2014-04-28 21:00:49 <travelingTeen> lol
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1680 2014-04-28 21:59:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|travelingTeen: With Bitcoin Core, yes. There are the send commands, and the raw transaction commands.
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1682 2014-04-28 21:59:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you want an offline wallet, consider Electrum or Armory
1683 2014-04-28 22:00:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Both of those specifically support an online watch-only copy of an offline wallet
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1777 2014-04-28 23:34:47 <wallet42> fbf2da852a0327d3afb3db27d89f74275b55448fce3c02f0823ec19e145325a4
1778 2014-04-28 23:35:16 <wallet42> someone is using that output to spam hundreds of new outputs
1779 2014-04-28 23:35:33 <wallet42> c50ae46af1d4edf1be7e626d4f19eb053034ce563dfc38faee27cb056507908c is one of those monster txes
1780 2014-04-28 23:35:42 <wallet42> its still unconfirmed
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1794 2014-04-28 23:43:30 <dexX7> ;;later tell jcorgan tested your branch with similar results. still contains the ref to orphaned blocks. i simply swapped bitcoind, but since i did not modify any of the insertion code, i hope this was enough to test?
1795 2014-04-28 23:43:31 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1796 2014-04-28 23:49:39 <jcorgan> dexX7: can you elaborate?  i don't have the backlog handy
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1801 2014-04-28 23:53:16 <dexX7> i'm running an address indexed branch for some time now, but realized earlier that in the case where a transaction was included in an orphaned block and then in a valid block, the transaction still has a reference to orphaned block
1802 2014-04-28 23:54:49 <sipa> that's expectes
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1804 2014-04-28 23:56:58 <jcorgan> yeah, that working as originally implemented
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1806 2014-04-28 23:58:57 <dexX7> but.. shouldn't there be some kind of update to reflect that the tx is in another (valid) block now?
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