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   2 2014-04-29 00:00:51 <sipa> you get the number of confirmations, no?
   3 2014-04-29 00:01:52 <sipa> you should see both the stale branch's version and (if mined again afterwards) in the main chain as well
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   6 2014-04-29 00:04:09 <dexX7> i see the blockhash of the orphaned block and 0 confirmations for those transactions
   7 2014-04-29 00:05:11 <dexX7> just to make sure, we are on the same level: i'm talking about searchrawtransactions which accesses the address index
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  14 2014-04-29 00:08:24 <sipa> and was the transaction confirmed in another branch?
  15 2014-04-29 00:09:40 <dexX7> yes
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  38 2014-04-29 00:35:19 <dexX7> alright. i figured it out: actually both transactions are listed - the confirmed one and the orphaned one
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  46 2014-04-29 00:44:42 <dexX7> (and.. that's what you were saying a few lines earlier - so ty :)
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 125 2014-04-29 02:43:38 <jgarzik> Ubuntu upgrade 13->14 suddenly decided I did not need boost anymore.
 126 2014-04-29 02:43:46 <jgarzik> lovely
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 130 2014-04-29 02:44:46 <shesek> wow, from not having any decent testnet blockexplorer a few months ago, we have 4 now - webbtc, blockr, insight and biteasy
 131 2014-04-29 02:45:00 nsh has joined
 132 2014-04-29 02:45:07 <shesek> and also blockexplorer that had testnet for a long time, but its somewhat broken :\
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 284 2014-04-29 05:28:23 <justanotheruser> Should transactions in the mempool be cleared every week or so (or maybe the time can be determined based on transaction amount)? When we have floating fees, I assume more than a few transactions will need to be rebroadcasted with higher feea
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 291 2014-04-29 05:32:10 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: why?
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 293 2014-04-29 05:32:46 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: because they will pay a fee too low
 294 2014-04-29 05:32:53 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: so just allow them to be replaced?
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 296 2014-04-29 05:33:02 <justanotheruser> Luke
 297 2014-04-29 05:33:21 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: why not?
 298 2014-04-29 05:33:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: he's saying, have replace-by-fee
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 300 2014-04-29 05:33:42 <Luke-Jr> because maybe they have sufficient fee and will be mined, then you have to redownload them\
 301 2014-04-29 05:33:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(I think)
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 303 2014-04-29 05:34:14 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: are you suggesting they push to pool if their tx fails?
 304 2014-04-29 05:34:15 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: there are lots of possible replacement algorithms
 305 2014-04-29 05:34:27 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: no? that doesn't even make sense
 306 2014-04-29 05:34:49 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: there's just zero value to removing transactions from the memorypool based on time
 307 2014-04-29 05:35:20 <Luke-Jr> if you're trying to save memory, then you don't care how long they've been in there (although you might bias toward removing older ones)
 308 2014-04-29 05:35:24 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: okay, well at least allow someone to spend the same inputs after a little time
 309 2014-04-29 05:35:29 <Luke-Jr> exactly
 310 2014-04-29 05:36:04 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: the code for *that* already exists; it's just not enabled by the *default* policy
 311 2014-04-29 05:36:05 <justanotheruser> Okay, so this is something that may be implemented?
 312 2014-04-29 05:36:11 <justanotheruser> Oh, I see
 313 2014-04-29 05:36:12 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: speaking of, did you see my post on how you don't need cpfp for replace-by-fee?
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 316 2014-04-29 05:36:45 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: hey now, you're going a bit too far— since the mempool is currently in memory forgetting them can decrease memory usage. :)
 317 2014-04-29 05:36:46 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: I saw it, I understand it, but instead of CPFP you need some kind of upgraded payment protocol..
 318 2014-04-29 05:36:56 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: [05:33:03] <Luke-Jr> if you're trying to save memory, then you don't care how long they've been in there (although you might bias toward removing older ones)
 319 2014-04-29 05:37:04 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: or simply SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY
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 321 2014-04-29 05:38:46 <Luke-Jr> it's too bad Linux doesn't have some kind of "weak pages" a stdlib could use to implement smarter caching.
 322 2014-04-29 05:38:55 <Luke-Jr> (memory pages the kernel is free to drop at will)
 323 2014-04-29 05:38:56 <Cray-on-> does someone know php?
 324 2014-04-29 05:39:08 <Cray-on-> got a quick question
 325 2014-04-29 05:39:13 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: you sure it doesn't? I think I've seen that before
 326 2014-04-29 05:39:24 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: I've never heard of such a thing before, at least
 327 2014-04-29 05:40:08 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: https://lwn.net/Articles/594847/
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 329 2014-04-29 05:40:37 <Luke-Jr> realistically, it'd probably be better to have some way for the kernel to express "please free up some memory, we're out of spare caching space" so programs can do their own prioritisation algo
 330 2014-04-29 05:41:39 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: hm!
 331 2014-04-29 05:41:54 * Luke-Jr wonders if anything actually uses this
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 337 2014-04-29 05:45:54 <gmaxwell> (see both MADV_FREE and MADV_DONTNEED)
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 353 2014-04-29 05:59:25 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: it's used internally in some allocators, to be able to keep pages of memory with the program if no one else needs them, whether it's used in glibc's I don't know but that would be strange if not
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 360 2014-04-29 06:00:37 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I'm not sure what use that would be? C doesn't expose cache-like functionality O.o
 361 2014-04-29 06:01:12 <gmaxwell> use it for freed memory. "the OS can have it back if it wants it, otherwise I'll reuse this page.
 362 2014-04-29 06:01:15 <gmaxwell> "
 363 2014-04-29 06:02:04 <Luke-Jr> wouldn't reuse (removing the madvise) cost just as much as getting a new page? O.o
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 366 2014-04-29 06:02:22 <wumpus> right; historically it has always been "when I claim this page from the OS, it stays with me forever" under UNIX (*yuck* SunOS), but Linux's software is somewhat smarter there
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 370 2014-04-29 06:04:24 <wumpus> (but the other alternative "give the page back to the OS immediately" results in bad performance due to many syscalls, so that was avoided, madvise provides a compromise)
 371 2014-04-29 06:04:27 tesserajk is now known as Guest46769
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 373 2014-04-29 06:06:08 <wumpus> I'm not sure it's *that* useful for keeping caches, as you'd have to check every time before you access the page
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 380 2014-04-29 06:08:58 <wumpus> that's some paranoid programming *does my buffer still exist? do I need to rebuild/reload it?*
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 382 2014-04-29 06:10:55 <wumpus> it's more common in APIs where memory is limited and precious (such as GPU memory)
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 385 2014-04-29 06:13:23 <wumpus> but I suppose these things are coming back, no one wants swap space anymore
 386 2014-04-29 06:13:47 <Luke-Jr> Linux doesn't work right without swap space :/
 387 2014-04-29 06:13:58 <Luke-Jr> it'll start OOM killing stuff even when there's free space
 388 2014-04-29 06:14:02 <Luke-Jr> free memory*
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 393 2014-04-29 06:15:42 <venzen> i agree - have a laptop with 8GB RAM and without swap it would just go crazy sometimes - despite 2.5GB free mem
 394 2014-04-29 06:16:07 Blxjander has joined
 395 2014-04-29 06:16:21 <venzen> and if you run out of mem - that is a crushing lockup :(
 396 2014-04-29 06:16:21 <Luke-Jr> heh, I have 16 GB RAM and I actually have to *use* swap :x
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 398 2014-04-29 06:16:24 <wumpus> I tried encrypted swap but it was really, really slow and caused the system to hang for minutes at a time when swapping was needed, so now I'm running without swap and getting re-acquainted with the OOM killer
 399 2014-04-29 06:16:29 Blxjander is now known as Belxjander
 400 2014-04-29 06:16:56 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: maybe a swap file on a ramdisk?
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 402 2014-04-29 06:17:08 <gmaxwell> wumpus: hm! I've run w/ encrypted swap for years. Not noticed any issues like that. (also, I use tmpfs— so it's not like my swap doesn't get used).
 403 2014-04-29 06:17:10 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: but a ram disk is in ram... how would that help?
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 405 2014-04-29 06:17:48 <gmaxwell> (unfortunately I just accidentally let my battery go dead in my laptop and restarted so I can't extract any useful numbers about how much swap I'm currently using)
 406 2014-04-29 06:17:59 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it could convince Linux it has swap
 407 2014-04-29 06:18:07 <wumpus> gmaxwell: it worked fine *except* when actual swapping was needed, things became really really slow... and I don't care about slowless in general, but it's really that the mouse cursor hangs like it's 1994
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 412 2014-04-29 06:18:55 <gmaxwell> yea, it might just be that I've basically never had it in that state.  Also— how were you doing the encryption?  Just a plain dmcrypt or did you have some kind of file on an encrypted fs?
 413 2014-04-29 06:18:59 Blxjander has joined
 414 2014-04-29 06:19:02 <venzen> wumpus: sometimes linux just insists on using swap (low level or some app sys calls) and just having _some_ swap in a RAM disk is better than none at all in those cases
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 418 2014-04-29 06:19:54 <Luke-Jr> once upon a time, I had Eligius running without swap. it'd get random stuff OOM killed all the time with several GBs RAM available
 419 2014-04-29 06:20:01 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I've also experimented with different kernel modules that impemet encryption (aes_x86_64 and such) but it didn't help either; but it still may be that more modern CPUs cope better as they have encryption instruction support
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 421 2014-04-29 06:20:47 <wumpus> gmaxwell: using an entry in crypttabl (so that's dmcrypt, I suppose)
 422 2014-04-29 06:21:42 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: it very predictably kills my IRC client always :-)
 423 2014-04-29 06:21:51 <venzen> i just upgraded to lubuntu 14.04 and the system resource usage is a great improvement on vanailla 12.04, btw
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 425 2014-04-29 06:22:00 <gmaxwell> wumpus: even without the encryption instructions it should still be much faster than the disk itself. (doesn't mean the kernel is handling it well though).
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 428 2014-04-29 06:23:47 <wumpus> gmaxwell: agreed; i mostly wonder why the entire machine seems to wait for the swap operation, more than the slowness (I can live with a slower compile, but not if I can't do anything else in the meantime)
 429 2014-04-29 06:24:50 <Belxjander> wumpus: because the whole machine has MultiTasking waiting on the memory swap exception to complete
 430 2014-04-29 06:25:04 <Belxjander> wumpus: honestly no idea if that blocks SMP systems or not however
 431 2014-04-29 06:25:05 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: probably GTK's fault :P
 432 2014-04-29 06:25:05 <wumpus> and man, g++ sure uses a lot of memory while compiling... I probably should get a machine specifically for compling
 433 2014-04-29 06:25:33 <Luke-Jr> oh, my system slows to a crawl compiling LLVM..
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 435 2014-04-29 06:25:52 <Luke-Jr> I think I had to give up on debug symbols for WebKit-based code too
 436 2014-04-29 06:26:00 <wumpus> Belxjander: hehe, swapping out the scheduler :)
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 438 2014-04-29 06:26:30 <Belxjander> wumpus: I've actually HAD to change scheduler algorythms on a running multitasking system :)
 439 2014-04-29 06:27:13 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: whoa, does it use more memory if you want debug symbols? you'd say a compiler *always* needs those symbols
 440 2014-04-29 06:27:23 * Belxjander was lucky as hell that it was all based on a shared memory system and the whole OS was based on a single pointer at a fixed location being readable for access to the kernel library... beyond that things would have gotten more complicated
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 443 2014-04-29 06:28:14 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yes
 444 2014-04-29 06:28:34 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it uses a huge amount more, in fact - Gentoo advises NOT building WebKit/LLVM/etc with -g options
 445 2014-04-29 06:28:47 <_andares> jcorgan: what's the future of pull request #3652?
 446 2014-04-29 06:28:47 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: IIRC it's mostly the linker
 447 2014-04-29 06:28:49 ClarusCogitatio has joined
 448 2014-04-29 06:28:51 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: but I like my debug data :(
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 450 2014-04-29 06:29:02 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: me too, and I tolerate it for LLVM :p
 451 2014-04-29 06:29:13 <Luke-Jr> mainly because LLVM is responsible for BFGMiner crashing :/
 452 2014-04-29 06:29:23 xdotcommer has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 453 2014-04-29 06:30:11 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: ... so you're building a compiler from source? do you need the latest and greatest C++11 features, or some weird platform?
 454 2014-04-29 06:30:16 <Luke-Jr> (free software OpenCL is implemented with LLVM targetting the GPU…)
 455 2014-04-29 06:30:22 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: Gentoo builds everything from source
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 459 2014-04-29 06:31:44 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes, Mesa uses LLVM to compile shaders for some newer GPUs, pretty cool, although writing a LLVM backend is much more work than the old TGSI framework, but GPUs have become thus advanced that they need a real compiler
 460 2014-04-29 06:32:05 <wumpus> _andares: not going to be merged
 461 2014-04-29 06:32:22 <wumpus> _andares: an address-based index doesn't belong at the level of bitcoind
 462 2014-04-29 06:32:38 dfletcher has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 463 2014-04-29 06:32:45 <wumpus> _andares: there have been ideas floating around about adding a UTXO query by address, but not the spent stuff
 464 2014-04-29 06:33:19 <_andares> hm. I'm writing a program that needs to get a provably complete tx history for an address
 465 2014-04-29 06:33:27 <wumpus> _andares: (comparatively spoken, a UTXO index by output would be pretty small, whereas indexing the whole block chain by address is crazy)
 466 2014-04-29 06:33:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|9:28:31 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: Gentoo builds everything from source <-- Chicken-and-egg issue there, no?
 467 2014-04-29 06:33:50 <_andares> wumpus: what's UTXO?
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 469 2014-04-29 06:34:21 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: the initial install has a tarball with just the compiler and package manager basically, which are rebuilt first
 470 2014-04-29 06:34:25 <wumpus> too much extra code and it's only useful for block chain forensics, something that can be done exellently in a seperate tool (as a few do, like insight...)
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 475 2014-04-29 06:35:04 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: the olde bootstrapping problem :)
 476 2014-04-29 06:35:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: does "everything" include GNU/Linux?
 477 2014-04-29 06:35:22 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: I'm not sure what you mean by that question.
 478 2014-04-29 06:35:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(I think I'm using the right name there)
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 480 2014-04-29 06:35:43 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: yes, everything, every single tool, and the kernel as well
 481 2014-04-29 06:35:45 <Luke-Jr> _andares: keep in mind that an address should only ever be used by 1 transaction
 482 2014-04-29 06:36:00 <Luke-Jr> actually, Gentoo makes you build your own kernel. a bit annoying :/
 483 2014-04-29 06:36:24 <_andares> Luke-Jr: I'm trying to build a reputation system, I have to make the anonymity tradeoff.
 484 2014-04-29 06:36:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So it's not just the compiler and package manager that the initial installer needs to give you
 485 2014-04-29 06:36:29 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: it's pretty elegant, and in a purist sense it's how open source is supposed to work, but I'm not patient enough anymore to run it
 486 2014-04-29 06:37:06 <Luke-Jr> _andares: sounds like a bad idea. and it's security too, not just "anonymity" (which is actually "privacy", in the sense that making it a "tradeoff" is probably illegal under consumer protection laws..).
 487 2014-04-29 06:37:18 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: hm?
 488 2014-04-29 06:37:33 <_andares> Luke-Jr: fine, propose a better alternative or leave me alone.
 489 2014-04-29 06:37:35 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: except for the memory-hungry builds, I just let it run in the background :p
 490 2014-04-29 06:37:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|9:32:30 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: the initial install has a tarball with just the compiler and package manager basically, which are rebuilt first
 491 2014-04-29 06:37:44 <Luke-Jr> _andares: PGP has one
 492 2014-04-29 06:37:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Sounds like it also needs to include the kernel and tools
 493 2014-04-29 06:38:10 <_andares> Luke-Jr: I'm not aiming for web of trust, I want a seller feedback thing like amazon has for purchases.
 494 2014-04-29 06:38:16 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: there's a livecd, but I usually just boot Kubuntu for that
 495 2014-04-29 06:38:23 <Luke-Jr> _andares: that's a web of trust.
 496 2014-04-29 06:38:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Writing the first compiler can't have been fun
 497 2014-04-29 06:39:02 <_andares> Luke-Jr: it is not, because I am only interested in cases where the transaction went badly.
 498 2014-04-29 06:39:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|_andares: ...why?
 499 2014-04-29 06:39:18 <jcorgan> wumpus: i understand #3652 isn't planned to be merged, but I'll keep it fresh with ongoing changes in current master if you ever change your mind :)
 500 2014-04-29 06:39:19 <Luke-Jr> _andares: good luck getting a scammer to cooperate
 501 2014-04-29 06:39:23 <_andares> anyway, this is getting off topic
 502 2014-04-29 06:39:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Positive feedback is also important
 503 2014-04-29 06:39:33 <_andares> I'd be happy to continue the conversation but in a different channel
 504 2014-04-29 06:39:34 <wumpus> jcorgan: yes, I don't mind; I wish bitcoind was more modular
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 506 2014-04-29 06:40:15 ClarusCogitatio has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 507 2014-04-29 06:40:17 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: I'm still amazed that my father disassembled his entire compiler in order to merely customise its output format. and he can't handle Python..
 508 2014-04-29 06:41:13 splix has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 509 2014-04-29 06:41:18 <SomeoneWeird> wat
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 513 2014-04-29 06:43:48 <Luke-Jr> (this was back when assembly was basically the only language)
 514 2014-04-29 06:44:18 <arubi> there's a pun somewhere there ^^
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 518 2014-04-29 06:48:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: the question is, could he still do it today
 519 2014-04-29 06:48:57 <wumpus> jcorgan: I proposed something once (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3440) to make it possible to have seperate modules that expose additional functionality, then the 'address based index' could just be a module that we pretend to not know about :)
 520 2014-04-29 06:50:02 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: maybe you should show him the python bytecode :-)
 521 2014-04-29 06:50:21 ClarusCogitatio has joined
 522 2014-04-29 06:50:42 <jcorgan> i have read that PR in detail, and have much to say about it, but haven't been able to put my thoughts into a coherent post.  TL;DR--modularity good, message passing concurrency even better.
 523 2014-04-29 06:51:00 <wumpus> 'look, this is almost like assembly too!'
 524 2014-04-29 06:51:02 <jcorgan> s/PR/issue/
 525 2014-04-29 06:51:34 <wumpus> jcorgan: well it is already possible to do the indexing in a seperate process; not even message-passing concurrency needed
 526 2014-04-29 06:51:43 <wumpus> jcorgan: but there seems to be a demand to do things in-process
 527 2014-04-29 06:51:54 <wumpus> jcorgan: (probably for performance reasons)
 528 2014-04-29 06:51:57 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I think he can't handle abstractions like OO
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 539 2014-04-29 06:56:23 <jcorgan> i can think of lots of ways to make bitcoind more modular, by breaking it into a number of smaller (but in process) concurrent servers, but we're at a point right now where the smallest changes bear enormous scrutiny.  this is not conducive to major refactoring :)
 540 2014-04-29 06:56:45 <wumpus> jcorgan: major refactoring really isn't an option, we have to work organically here
 541 2014-04-29 06:57:05 <wumpus> jcorgan: the only major refactoring that would make me really happy is splitting off the wallet
 542 2014-04-29 06:57:49 <jcorgan> agree that organic growth is the only thing possible given the burden of multi-billion dollar economies :)
 543 2014-04-29 06:57:59 <maaku> michagogo|cloud: writing the first compiler was a monumental project involving iirc decades of man-years and a significant portion of the entire nascent software industry
 544 2014-04-29 06:58:23 <maaku> kinda mind blowing that a decent compiler for a far more powerful language can be written by a CS undergrad student in a semester course
 545 2014-04-29 06:59:22 <jcorgan> i wasn't around back then, but i imagine the split off of bitcoin-qt was difficult
 546 2014-04-29 06:59:31 <wumpus> jcorgan: once the wallet is split off to another project, and the consensus stuff is nicely isolated in a KEEP OUT directory, more things would be possible
 547 2014-04-29 06:59:45 <maaku> jcorgan: not really -- bitcoin-qt was never part of bitcoind
 548 2014-04-29 07:00:29 <wumpus> jcorgan: it went the other way around: I wrote bitcoin-qt as a seperate project
 549 2014-04-29 07:00:47 <jcorgan> oh
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 551 2014-04-29 07:00:50 <wumpus> in the beginning I wasn't even sure whether I would use [what is now] bitcoin core as backend
 552 2014-04-29 07:01:14 BoyGR has joined
 553 2014-04-29 07:01:45 <wumpus> but there were no real wallet backend alternatives back in the day, and if you restrict to C/C++ there still isn't much... bitc is the only thing that comes close
 554 2014-04-29 07:02:13 <jcorgan> well, splitting out the wallet will indeed enable some more rapid changes.  but the "internal architecture" of bitcoind seems rather baked-in for the forseeable future.
 555 2014-04-29 07:02:15 <maaku> wumpus: but why restrict to C/C++ (ugh)
 556 2014-04-29 07:03:01 <maaku> jcorgan: modularizing and splitting off compents of bitcoin core is very much the near term development goal
 557 2014-04-29 07:03:15 <wumpus> jcorgan: now we have *what if it allows stealing keys!* and *what if it affects the consensus!* screaming inour minds at every change
 558 2014-04-29 07:03:19 ClarusCogitatio has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 559 2014-04-29 07:03:32 <jcorgan> but that's a good thing
 560 2014-04-29 07:04:04 <wumpus> without wallet, the first would be less of an issue, and when the consensus stuff would be wrapped up in a library, the second would at least be contained
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 562 2014-04-29 07:05:23 <wumpus> maaku: because, like it or not, C/C++, is pretty much the common ground in 'lower level' software
 563 2014-04-29 07:05:53 <jcorgan> based on a brief discussion of it with gmaxwell a few days ago, i was looking today at what it would take to add authenticated connections between nodes.  while the idea was simple, i really couldn't make heads or tails of what all in the code would need to be touched, and what sort potential impacts it would have.  this is the sort of thing that would be made easier by modularization/concurrency.
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 566 2014-04-29 07:06:34 <wumpus> maaku: stray from it and you get either into languages that prefer a certain platform or vendor, that are too high-level for system-level programming languages, or that only very few people know about or can program in
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 570 2014-04-29 07:07:51 <maaku> wumpus: I would disagree -- the stringent requirements of this sort of financial software make C++ a very unoptimal choice
 571 2014-04-29 07:08:08 <wumpus> maaku: the other option would be java
 572 2014-04-29 07:08:14 <maaku> ugh
 573 2014-04-29 07:08:17 <maaku> try Haskell
 574 2014-04-29 07:08:26 <warren> I was drinking when he said java.
 575 2014-04-29 07:08:29 <warren> almost went up my nose
 576 2014-04-29 07:09:15 <wumpus> maaku: try writing real software in haskell.... I've tried, it's 10 times as much effort as anything else, only spent in thinking about abstractions, not about the problem domain
 577 2014-04-29 07:09:38 <wumpus> warren: at least it helps in discouraging people that want to switch the programming languages... 'the alternative is ... HELL'
 578 2014-04-29 07:09:52 ClarusCogitatio has joined
 579 2014-04-29 07:10:19 <maaku> wumpus: but the result is code that works, performs to spec, and is free of errors. i'd say that is more important (and yes I have used haskell in production)
 580 2014-04-29 07:10:35 <wumpus> maaku: in an open source project it is also important that people can contribute
 581 2014-04-29 07:10:41 <maaku> but there are other alternatives too: rust, go
 582 2014-04-29 07:10:54 <wumpus> rust is another almost-unknown, experimental, new language
 583 2014-04-29 07:10:58 ClarusCogitatio has quit (Excess Flood)
 584 2014-04-29 07:11:03 * jcorgan has been drinking the go koolaid recently
 585 2014-04-29 07:11:05 <wumpus> it looks nice in theory but it's too much in flux to even consider using it
 586 2014-04-29 07:11:18 <maaku> wumpus: I'd prioratize that last. for software securing a $6 billion economy, working according to spec is priority #1
 587 2014-04-29 07:11:24 ClarusCogitatio has joined
 588 2014-04-29 07:11:31 <wumpus> maaku: what spec?
 589 2014-04-29 07:11:42 <wumpus> maaku: the current consensus code *is* the spec
 590 2014-04-29 07:11:49 <wumpus> and it's in C++
 591 2014-04-29 07:12:28 <maaku> wumpus: see, it's what we're stuck with. if a better language had been used the spec *would be* the code, and the code would behave to spec, and we'd have no surprises
 592 2014-04-29 07:12:49 <wumpus> maaku: there is no use in thinking about could have beens
 593 2014-04-29 07:13:12 <maaku> for consensus code that ship has sailed and the best we can do is contain it, modularize, and maybe one day move to a very strict, non-implementation defined subset of C or C++
 594 2014-04-29 07:13:23 <maaku> but for new code? i see no reason to use C++
 595 2014-04-29 07:13:55 Grouver has joined
 596 2014-04-29 07:13:57 <wumpus> maaku: hence wrapping up the consensus code in a library
 597 2014-04-29 07:14:16 <maaku> yes, which we should be doing and people like sipa are working towards
 598 2014-04-29 07:14:25 <wumpus> maaku: you could use it from python even (I think that's petertodd's plan with python-bitcoin)
 599 2014-04-29 07:14:29 <maaku> and people doing new and innovative stuff on top of that consensus code should not be using C++
 600 2014-04-29 07:14:40 <wumpus> maaku: for the rest of the code it really doesn't matter as much
 601 2014-04-29 07:14:40 <_andares> in SPV mode, when a bloom filter is installed on a session and the SPV client requests a block, will the transactions returned be filtered so that only the txs matching the bloom filter are returned?
 602 2014-04-29 07:15:00 ClarusCogitatio has quit (Excess Flood)
 603 2014-04-29 07:15:29 <maaku> wumpus: it still matters, just not global catastrophy if you get it wrong
 604 2014-04-29 07:15:55 ClarusCogitatio has joined
 605 2014-04-29 07:15:55 digitalmagus8 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 606 2014-04-29 07:15:57 <wumpus> maaku: anyhow, let's agree to never agree here
 607 2014-04-29 07:16:04 yubrew has joined
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 609 2014-04-29 07:20:15 <jcorgan> in any case, i'll also be reviewing the zmq work that was done some time ago, with the idea of adding some optional pub sockets that would allow notify wallet/block to be a little more granular. i know this was mentioned as an item in #3440
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 617 2014-04-29 07:22:55 <wumpus> yes, notification support using ZMQ would be nice, if you want to avoid the authentication issues that plagued the original pull it makes sense to split that part off
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 621 2014-04-29 07:26:23 <jcorgan> not familiar with the auth issues you reference, but i was just thinking that a zmq pub socket could be treated like a relay destination, possibly filtered with a bloom filter
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 624 2014-04-29 07:27:40 <wumpus> well, that pull also allowed sending JSON RPC commands through ZMQ, without any form of authentication, which isn't an option (at least as long as there is still the wallet; read-only queries would be fine...)
 625 2014-04-29 07:27:50 randy-waterhouse has left ()
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 627 2014-04-29 07:27:53 <jcorgan> ah ok
 628 2014-04-29 07:28:37 jtimon has joined
 629 2014-04-29 07:28:45 <jcorgan> my thoughts are really just around adding an event driven interface that external software can listen to, rather than to poll.  but there would still be an acl issue.
 630 2014-04-29 07:29:36 <wumpus> that's why I mentioned splitting off the notification part; it makes more sense, and suffers much less from authentication issues (it's not a secret that a new block came in...)
 631 2014-04-29 07:30:12 <jcorgan> right
 632 2014-04-29 07:31:06 <wumpus> for read-only access to the block and transaction data, jgarzik's http rest interface (#2844) makes more sense
 633 2014-04-29 07:31:14 splix has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 634 2014-04-29 07:31:45 <jcorgan> i assume that is still polled
 635 2014-04-29 07:31:54 <wumpus> then json-rpc can be left for management/control tasks
 636 2014-04-29 07:32:06 <wumpus> jcorgan: it's just a way to query data, it has no notifications
 637 2014-04-29 07:32:09 <jcorgan> there is much to be said about just being told when something happens, rather than constantly querying whether it did
 638 2014-04-29 07:32:43 <wumpus> jcorgan: some other mechanism (like -blocknotify, or zmq) would be used to know when events happen
 639 2014-04-29 07:32:45 <wumpus> pulling is stupid
 640 2014-04-29 07:32:49 <wumpus> polling*
 641 2014-04-29 07:33:59 <jcorgan> right. i conceive of a bitcoind with a queryable RPC and event driven ZMQ, then external software has everything it needs.
 642 2014-04-29 07:34:12 <wumpus> (well it makes sense for one thing: data that you want to collect periodically, like statistics)
 643 2014-04-29 07:34:23 <arubi> first time using the coin control feature on 0.9.1, I've selected the tx I want to use, pressed OK, now how do I send that exact tx? should I copy the "after fee" field to the "amount" field below?
 644 2014-04-29 07:35:37 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 645 2014-04-29 07:36:22 UTB has joined
 646 2014-04-29 07:36:59 <jcorgan> (of course it seems the web guys want websocket for event driven stuff, though I know almost nothing about that world :)
 647 2014-04-29 07:37:15 <Alina-malina> how can i convert BTC to satoshis in right way?
 648 2014-04-29 07:37:23 <gjs278> move the decimal place
 649 2014-04-29 07:37:59 <wumpus> Alina-malina: just store it in satoshis in the first place :)
 650 2014-04-29 07:38:37 <wumpus> jcorgan: yes, that's where pluggable notification backends would be useful
 651 2014-04-29 07:39:22 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 652 2014-04-29 07:39:26 <wumpus> Alina-malina: inside bitcoin core we only use 'BTC' values when formatting and parsing, internally everything uses 64-bit integers with the number of satoshis
 653 2014-04-29 07:40:13 <arubi> what's the purpose of coin control in 0.9.1?
 654 2014-04-29 07:40:15 <wumpus> but whatever you do, never use floating point values for monetary values
 655 2014-04-29 07:40:25 <wumpus> arubi: education
 656 2014-04-29 07:40:43 <arubi> so I can't use a tx as an input for a transaction using coin control?
 657 2014-04-29 07:40:45 <wumpus> arubi: and a little bit of privacy, if used consistently
 658 2014-04-29 07:41:17 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 659 2014-04-29 07:41:32 <wumpus> arubi: you can, just select the output from that transaction from the list, if it isn't spent yet
 660 2014-04-29 07:41:38 CryptoBuck has joined
 661 2014-04-29 07:42:02 <arubi> wumpus, yes, but now how do I actually use that unspent tx as an input for my new tx?
 662 2014-04-29 07:42:48 <Alina-malina> wumpus, well i want to store the values in mysql database, so i am not sure if i should store those in decimal btcs or  satoshis
 663 2014-04-29 07:42:49 <jcorgan> well, g'night folks
 664 2014-04-29 07:43:06 <wumpus> arubi: select it from the list, it will be labeled with your receiving address, and the size of the output, which should be enough to recognize it
 665 2014-04-29 07:43:16 tesserajk has joined
 666 2014-04-29 07:43:40 tesserajk is now known as Guest45509
 667 2014-04-29 07:44:06 <wumpus> Alina-malina: using a SQL decimal type is also fine, although you have to make sure that neither you or the underlying SQL API goes through floating point and uses fixed-point arithmetic only
 668 2014-04-29 07:44:45 <arubi> wumpus, sure, I've done that, now where should I put the "pay to" address? If I put it in the "pay to" field and click send, I have the "Amount" field light up in red
 669 2014-04-29 07:44:55 <arubi> (since it's empty)
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 671 2014-04-29 07:46:21 <wumpus> arubi: you need to fill in an amount
 672 2014-04-29 07:46:51 <arubi> so should I copy+paste the "After Fee" amount into the "Amount" field below?
 673 2014-04-29 07:47:16 <wumpus> yes
 674 2014-04-29 07:47:41 <arubi> Alright. Thanks.
 675 2014-04-29 07:47:53 digitalmagus8 has joined
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 677 2014-04-29 07:47:56 digitalmagus8 has joined
 678 2014-04-29 07:48:43 <arubi> Oh now I see :) sorry, can't understand how I missed it
 679 2014-04-29 07:48:50 <wumpus> would be useful to have a 'send everything' button some day
 680 2014-04-29 07:48:55 joebaker has joined
 681 2014-04-29 07:49:01 trippysalmon has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 682 2014-04-29 07:49:45 <arubi> Yea, that's what I wanted to do, was "blinded" by the lack of it :)
 683 2014-04-29 07:49:57 Guest45509 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 684 2014-04-29 07:49:57 trippysalmon has joined
 685 2014-04-29 07:50:09 <wumpus> (so if someone is looking for a suggestion for a useful GUI change they could implement, there is one ^^)
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 689 2014-04-29 07:55:17 <arowser> Hi, I see the code "scriptSigRet << OP_0; // workaround CHECKMULTISIG bug" in script.cpp, What's the bug?
 690 2014-04-29 07:57:34 dfletcher has joined
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 692 2014-04-29 08:01:05 <gmaxwell> arowser: It pops an extra element off the stack— though intended or not it may someday be handy as an extension mechenism.
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 713 2014-04-29 08:23:43 <arowser> I found a example in http://webbtc.com/script/854e8bc9a14d2b4a23cc886c36dbf5f9a67d5513422073a641aa7f3543016c2a:0, its seems the OP_0 its a empty action, and the stack is no change after execute OP_0.
 714 2014-04-29 08:24:59 runeks has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 715 2014-04-29 08:25:09 <gmaxwell> No, that isn't correct.
 716 2014-04-29 08:25:12 <gmaxwell> even the page says, "An empty array of bytes _is pushed onto the stack_."   (but if it didn't say that, it would just be wrong)
 717 2014-04-29 08:25:15 <gmaxwell> it's showing the stack incorrectly in step 2.
 718 2014-04-29 08:25:26 runeks has joined
 719 2014-04-29 08:25:43 <gmaxwell> A "0" in script is a length zero array.
 720 2014-04-29 08:27:03 UTB has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 725 2014-04-29 08:29:20 <arowser> I'm confused, what's the different between "An empty array" with "a length zero array"?
 726 2014-04-29 08:30:05 <gmaxwell> It's an array with nothing in it. like the empty string "".
 727 2014-04-29 08:30:14 <gmaxwell> This is still an object on the stack.
 728 2014-04-29 08:33:47 <arowser> so the OP_0 push a empty array obj to stack.
 729 2014-04-29 08:35:58 <gmaxwell> All objects on the stack are arrays of bytes. OP_0 (and generally zeros in Stack) is zero-length object.
 730 2014-04-29 08:37:40 kobayashi_ has joined
 731 2014-04-29 08:38:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell, arowser: note the blank line on each Stack listing there
 732 2014-04-29 08:39:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It *is* showing, literally, ""
 733 2014-04-29 08:39:33 JackH has joined
 734 2014-04-29 08:39:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Though idk why there isn't a blank line on the second entry, that's weird
 735 2014-04-29 08:40:30 non2_ has joined
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 738 2014-04-29 08:42:43 <joebaker> http://pastebin.com/PftrTNdA   I'm running bitcoind  - and I'm getting these errors about memory.  The system is only using 4GB of 16GB available and there is 67GB  of hard disk space available.  Ubuntu 14.04
 739 2014-04-29 08:43:35 non2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 740 2014-04-29 08:44:28 <wumpus> joebaker: you are using the 64-bit bitcoind?
 741 2014-04-29 08:44:34 jeewee has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 742 2014-04-29 08:44:55 damethos has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 743 2014-04-29 08:44:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And what version are you using?
 744 2014-04-29 08:45:03 <arowser> gmaxwell, its seems the site use blank line to express empty array.
 745 2014-04-29 08:45:13 <joebaker> wumpus - yes  I think so - I'll check.  9.1 I'm pretty sure.
 746 2014-04-29 08:45:28 jeewee1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 747 2014-04-29 08:45:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;blocks
 748 2014-04-29 08:45:50 <gribble> 298265
 749 2014-04-29 08:45:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;help blocks
 750 2014-04-29 08:45:53 <gribble> (blocks takes no arguments) -- Get current block count.
 751 2014-04-29 08:45:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;list
 752 2014-04-29 08:45:56 <gribble> Admin, Alias, Anonymous, AutoMode, BadWords, BitcoinData, Channel, ChannelLogger, ChannelStats, Conditional, Config, Debug, Dict, Dunno, Factoids, Filter, Format, GPG, Games, Gatekeeper, Google, Herald, Internet, Later, Market, Math, MessageParser, Misc, Network, OTCOrderBook, Owner, Plugin, RSS, RatingSystem, Reply, Scheduler, Seen, Services, Status, String, Time, Topic, URL, Unix, (1 more message)
 753 2014-04-29 08:46:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;list bitcoindata
 754 2014-04-29 08:46:02 <gribble> bcstats, blockdiff, blocks, bounty, diff, diffchange, estimate, genprob, genrate, gentime, halfreward, hextarget, interval, nethash, nextretarget, prevdiff, prevdiffchange, tblb, timetonext, totalbc, and tslb
 755 2014-04-29 08:46:19 <sipa> _andares: sounds like you are trying to use addresses as an identity system; that's a really bad idea for privacy, as the linking between them is public
 756 2014-04-29 08:46:25 <joebaker> ii  bitcoind                               0.3.24~dfsg-1   - this is wht dpkg -l shows.
 757 2014-04-29 08:46:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|joebaker: ah, yeah, that's ancient
 758 2014-04-29 08:46:41 <wumpus> ?!?!?!?!?!??! 0.3.24?
 759 2014-04-29 08:46:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No surprise that it doesn't work
 760 2014-04-29 08:46:47 <wumpus> get rid of it, quickly
 761 2014-04-29 08:46:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|joebaker: did you upgrade from precise, by any chance?
 762 2014-04-29 08:47:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|joebaker: `sudo add-apt-repository ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin;sudo apt-get update;sudo apt-get dist-upgrade`
 763 2014-04-29 08:47:31 <joebaker> hmmm.. wait this isn't ubuntu 14.04 - this is an older ubuntu.  Forgive me.
 764 2014-04-29 08:47:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|joebaker: I suspect you're on precise (12.04)
 765 2014-04-29 08:47:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|precise ships bitcoind 0.3.24 in its repos
 766 2014-04-29 08:47:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Either way
 767 2014-04-29 08:48:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|11:45:08 <michagogo|cloud> joebaker: `sudo add-apt-repository ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin;sudo apt-get update;sudo apt-get dist-upgrade`
 768 2014-04-29 08:48:41 <joebaker> Yes, it is an older distro.  Happy to upgrade.  I'm working on getting 100 bitcoin nodes up for the Nodeshares project.
 769 2014-04-29 08:48:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That should get you 0.9.1 as long as you're on lucid, precise, saucy, or trusty
 770 2014-04-29 08:48:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|joebaker: no need to upgrade Ubuntu
 771 2014-04-29 08:49:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just run those 3 commands
 772 2014-04-29 08:49:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|that will gice you 0.9.1
 773 2014-04-29 08:49:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|give*
 774 2014-04-29 08:49:12 <joebaker> ok...
 775 2014-04-29 08:49:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: d'you know any Ubuntu packaging
 776 2014-04-29 08:49:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|?
 777 2014-04-29 08:49:44 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: no
 778 2014-04-29 08:49:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|k
 779 2014-04-29 08:50:05 <sipa> maaku: if you're talking about (full) node implementation, i believe c++ is currently the best choice (evwn for more than just consensus critical code), because of resource control. if you use a language with garbage collection for example, it becomes very hard to limit how much memory every node will waste on one transaction/block/...
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 782 2014-04-29 08:50:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I've been told that there's no way to remove 0.3.24 from the repos, nor to put a modern version there
 783 2014-04-29 08:50:41 <sipa> maaku: plenty of (academic) experience with haskell, and i love it, but not for large scale engineering efforts
 784 2014-04-29 08:51:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But a dummy package could be made and submitted as an "update" that effectively removes it
 785 2014-04-29 08:53:44 <joebaker> should I wipe my blockchain data and start over with the bootstrap.dat file?
 786 2014-04-29 08:53:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|joebaker: no need
 787 2014-04-29 08:53:57 <joebaker> OK thanks!
 788 2014-04-29 08:54:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just run the new version
 789 2014-04-29 08:54:13 <wumpus> shouldn't be necessary, though with such an old version, I'm not sure
 790 2014-04-29 08:54:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|joebaker: can you pastebin an ls of your .bitcoin?
 791 2014-04-29 08:54:58 <wumpus> sipa: that's another great point for using c/c++
 792 2014-04-29 08:55:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(ls -al ~/.bitcoin | pastebinit)
 793 2014-04-29 08:55:25 <joebaker> After the reboot I'll pastebin it.  Yes...(kernel upgrade)
 794 2014-04-29 08:55:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(I'm assuming that the bitcoind package did get upgraded, right?)
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 800 2014-04-29 08:59:05 <joebaker> Yes bitcoind did upgrade.  And now here's the listing  earnesto@jbtest:~$ ls -al ~/.bitcoin
 801 2014-04-29 08:59:05 <joebaker> total 14057664
 802 2014-04-29 08:59:05 <joebaker> drwxrwxr-x  3 earnesto earnesto       4096 Apr 29 01:24 .
 803 2014-04-29 08:59:06 <joebaker> drwxr-xr-x 34 earnesto earnesto       4096 Apr 29 00:52 ..
 804 2014-04-29 08:59:06 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto    9625600 Apr 29 01:49 addr.dat
 805 2014-04-29 08:59:07 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto         48 Apr 29 00:52 bitcoin.conf
 806 2014-04-29 08:59:10 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto 2097361271 Apr 27 08:30 blk0001.dat
 807 2014-04-29 08:59:12 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto 2097295438 Apr 27 12:46 blk0002.dat
 808 2014-04-29 08:59:14 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto 2097179300 Apr 27 17:33 blk0003.dat
 809 2014-04-29 08:59:16 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto 2097222364 Apr 27 22:40 blk0004.dat
 810 2014-04-29 08:59:18 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto 2097222566 Apr 28 03:56 blk0005.dat
 811 2014-04-29 08:59:21 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto  510829910 Apr 29 01:48 blk0006.dat
 812 2014-04-29 08:59:23 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto 3381325824 Apr 29 01:50 blkindex.dat
 813 2014-04-29 08:59:25 <joebaker> drwx------  2 earnesto earnesto       4096 Apr 29 01:46 database
 814 2014-04-29 08:59:27 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto      24576 Apr 29 01:50 __db.001
 815 2014-04-29 08:59:29 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto     221184 Apr 29 01:50 __db.002
 816 2014-04-29 08:59:32 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto     270336 Apr 29 01:50 __db.003
 817 2014-04-29 08:59:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...I asked for a pastebin :-/
 818 2014-04-29 08:59:34 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto     163840 Apr 29 01:50 __db.004
 819 2014-04-29 08:59:36 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto    6324224 Apr 29 01:50 __db.005
 820 2014-04-29 08:59:38 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto      49152 Apr 29 01:50 __db.006
 821 2014-04-29 08:59:40 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto         28 Apr 27 03:59 DB_CONFIG
 822 2014-04-29 08:59:43 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto      21956 Apr 29 01:49 db.log
 823 2014-04-29 08:59:45 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto    2329083 Apr 29 01:50 debug.log
 824 2014-04-29 08:59:47 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto          0 Apr 27 03:59 .lock
 825 2014-04-29 08:59:49 <joebaker> -rw-------  1 earnesto earnesto      98304 Apr 29 01:50 wallet.dat
 826 2014-04-29 08:59:54 <joebaker> sorry!
 827 2014-04-29 08:59:55 <Apocalyptic> dafuq
 828 2014-04-29 08:59:56 <joebaker> http://pastebin.com/f7DatKY4
 829 2014-04-29 09:00:00 <joebaker> Wrong copy buffer :(
 830 2014-04-29 09:00:05 <joebaker> me hangs my head in shame.
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 833 2014-04-29 09:00:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You can delete blkindex.dat
 834 2014-04-29 09:01:06 <sipa> maaku: if i could write bitcoin from scratch, i think i would try writing the consensus critical part in two languages at once, just to force yourself to think aout exactly what will be accepted and what won't (like haskell for specification, and c++ for the actually deployable scalable version with dos protections)... but even then, what gets deployed is what defines the network rules, and even though you could say that in that cxase deviations...
 835 2014-04-29 09:01:11 <sipa> from the specification would be bugs, it would still be the specification that is wrong for not describing the network correctly
 836 2014-04-29 09:01:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Then start bitcoind with -loadblock=blk0001.dat -loadblock=blk0002.dat -loadblock=blk0003.dat etc
 837 2014-04-29 09:01:35 Milanito has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 838 2014-04-29 09:02:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(er, wait, I think you could also just create a dir called blocks/ and move blk0*.dat in there)
 839 2014-04-29 09:02:18 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: you would need to rename them
 840 2014-04-29 09:02:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, right -- extra 0
 841 2014-04-29 09:02:36 <sipa> bitcoind will automatically hardlink them to their new names at first run in 0.8
 842 2014-04-29 09:02:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, will it?
 843 2014-04-29 09:02:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right, forgot about that
 844 2014-04-29 09:02:45 <sipa> yes
 845 2014-04-29 09:03:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|joebaker: so don't move anything
 846 2014-04-29 09:03:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just run bitcoind
 847 2014-04-29 09:03:26 <joebaker> sorry, I started bitcoind
 848 2014-04-29 09:03:47 <joebaker> It seems to be working very well.  Lots of traffic.
 849 2014-04-29 09:03:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Great.
 850 2014-04-29 09:04:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Once you've run it once and it's created blocks/ and linked the files there, you can delete the blk000?.dat links in .bitcoin
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 853 2014-04-29 09:04:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(or just leave them there, they don't hurt anything)
 854 2014-04-29 09:04:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What you can delete to save space, though, is blkindex.dat
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 860 2014-04-29 09:06:52 <joebaker> Great advice - Thanks! - I was amazed how fast I was able to download the 17GB bootstrap.dat file.  How often is that file regenerated for distribution?
 861 2014-04-29 09:07:42 <sipa> every few releases
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 866 2014-04-29 09:10:01 <sipa> wumpus: so, regarding headersfirst and some of the locking issues now, what i want to do is move the calls that activate the best chain out of processlock
 867 2014-04-29 09:10:42 <sipa> wumpus: so receiving a block will first call processblock to verify pow, do basic checks, yadda yadda, and just store it in the database
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 869 2014-04-29 09:11:28 <sipa> wumpus: then release cs_main, and call activatebestchain, which iterates until the best known block is either found to be invalid, or is active
 870 2014-04-29 09:11:52 <sipa> wumpus: but that can be done with one cs_main lock release every time a new best block is found
 871 2014-04-29 09:12:47 <sipa> s/new/better/
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 874 2014-04-29 09:16:50 <joebaker> Bitcoind appears to only be using one cpu core.  Is there any benefit to having lots of cores on a full node?
 875 2014-04-29 09:17:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|joebaker: you don't need bootstrap.dat, you have the blk000?.dat files already
 876 2014-04-29 09:18:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bootstrap.dat is the same data that's in blk0*.dat
 877 2014-04-29 09:18:26 <sipa> joebaker: yes, once you pass the last checkpoint, signature validation is performed fully
 878 2014-04-29 09:18:36 <sipa> joebaker: and that will use as many cores as it can get
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 881 2014-04-29 09:20:39 <joebaker> yes.  I removed the symbolic link to bootstrap.dat in my torrent dir  from the .bitcoin directory.  I figure it is useful to run bittorrent for others who want to download it as I did.
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 883 2014-04-29 09:21:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|True.
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 942 2014-04-29 10:42:54 <wumpus> sipa: sounds good
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1047 2014-04-29 13:00:06 <lt_cmdr_lore> iis this a bug that I see values in listunspend that do not match listaccounts
1048 2014-04-29 13:00:23 <lt_cmdr_lore> could 2 accounts share funds of one unspent transaction?
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1050 2014-04-29 13:00:49 <sipa> yes
1051 2014-04-29 13:01:02 <sipa> accounts have *nothing* to do with actual unspent outputs
1052 2014-04-29 13:01:05 <sipa> they're just numbers
1053 2014-04-29 13:02:16 <sipa> accounts can go negative too, for example
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1055 2014-04-29 13:02:34 <lt_cmdr_lore> this is so bad for privacy
1056 2014-04-29 13:02:43 <wallet42> is the accounting system threadsafe?
1057 2014-04-29 13:02:53 <sipa> wallet42: within bitcoind, sure
1058 2014-04-29 13:03:00 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: don't use accounts for privacy
1059 2014-04-29 13:03:04 <lt_cmdr_lore> what is then a proper way to isolate several accounts X,Y,Z so that will have nothing in common? other then run 3 nodes
1060 2014-04-29 13:03:11 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: use separate wallets
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1063 2014-04-29 13:03:41 <sipa> as bitcoind currently doesn't support multiple wallets, that does mean using separate nodes, or swapping wallets
1064 2014-04-29 13:03:42 <lt_cmdr_lore> but you have to stop node and swap wallet? or was multi-wallet implemented yet in bitcoind
1065 2014-04-29 13:03:48 <lt_cmdr_lore> oh.
1066 2014-04-29 13:03:50 <sipa> there are other wallet implementations though
1067 2014-04-29 13:04:01 <lt_cmdr_lore> but I <3 bitcoind
1068 2014-04-29 13:04:07 <lt_cmdr_lore> it's child of satoshi
1069 2014-04-29 13:04:26 <lt_cmdr_lore> which implementation does good isolation? armory?
1070 2014-04-29 13:05:28 <sipa> anything that supports multiple wallets has isolation
1071 2014-04-29 13:05:54 <lt_cmdr_lore> is there work progressing in direction of multi wallet? maybe there are fundings for someone to develop it (if e.g. I would like to) - or perhaps I could micro donate someone to implement this
1072 2014-04-29 13:05:59 <lt_cmdr_lore> * in bitcoind
1073 2014-04-29 13:07:34 <lt_cmdr_lore> the help is not fully clear, after swapping wallet which is needed rescan, reindex, both?
1074 2014-04-29 13:08:11 <sipa> neither
1075 2014-04-29 13:08:25 <sipa> -reindex is for rebuilding the validation database, and is independent of the wallet
1076 2014-04-29 13:08:34 <sipa> -rescan is only if you manually modify the wallet.dat file
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1078 2014-04-29 13:08:54 <sipa> since 0.4 or so, bitcoind automatically detects that a wallet.dat is outdated, and rescans whatever part of the chain is necessary
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1094 2014-04-29 13:22:32 <wumpus> armory supports multi-wallet and builds on top of bitcoind, so it's probably what you want
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1103 2014-04-29 13:28:16 <wumpus> it even has a preliminary RPC daemon, though I haven't tested it myself: https://github.com/etotheipi/BitcoinArmory/blob/master/armoryd.py 
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1186 2014-04-29 14:32:30 <hearn> jgarzik: paging jgarzik :)
1187 2014-04-29 14:32:37 <hearn> jgarzik: is bitpay.com/checkout supposed to exist?
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1326 2014-04-29 16:20:41 <jgarzik> hearn, is there a link to that URL somewhere?
1327 2014-04-29 16:21:06 <hearn> i guess they bookmarked it
1328 2014-04-29 16:21:08 <hearn> ttyl
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1331 2014-04-29 16:22:45 <planet23> hey
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1378 2014-04-29 17:07:47 <GAit> i seem to find how many orphan blocks we had historically but i can't find much about reorgs and height, does anyone have a pointer?
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1380 2014-04-29 17:10:42 <gmaxwell> about 1% of blocks are orphaned. I don't have a precise number or a easy way to count them.
1381 2014-04-29 17:13:04 <GAit> gmaxwell: was the height ever higher than 1 ?
1382 2014-04-29 17:13:15 <GAit> the delta between the soft fork
1383 2014-04-29 17:13:37 <GAit> actually, i don't mean the delta
1384 2014-04-29 17:13:48 <GAit> i mean height since the soft fork
1385 2014-04-29 17:13:57 <sipa> 2 happens
1386 2014-04-29 17:14:23 <GAit> where did 6 come from for reasonably safe?
1387 2014-04-29 17:14:52 <GAit> is anything using higher than 6 confirms to operate (other than newly mined blocks) ?
1388 2014-04-29 17:16:07 <GAit> has anyone attempted a formula between amount moved and confirmations required that would give a reasonable level of security or is that a wrong thing to do?
1389 2014-04-29 17:16:14 <sipa> from the bitcoin whitepaper
1390 2014-04-29 17:16:56 <GAit> sipa: sorry for that, i didn't realize, should have known better
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1392 2014-04-29 17:17:35 <sipa> and such a formula is hard... it depends more on the total expected benefit an attacker could get from reorganizing a block (which may mean attacking several transactions at the same time)
1393 2014-04-29 17:17:50 <sipa> satoshi's formula is based on the assumed hashrate% of the attacker
1394 2014-04-29 17:18:13 <sipa> unfortunately, with the high degree of mining centralization now, that formula's probably not actually all that meaningful anymore
1395 2014-04-29 17:19:45 <GAit> yeah i think gmaxwell  or jgarzik was saying not even 6 is good enough for some amounts
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1401 2014-04-29 17:24:54 <gmaxwell> It's hard to comment on security because it depends on your risk tolerances and attack assumptions. Right now someone hacking or taking over the single largest pool (er, or just their operators without any takeover...) would be successful 5% of the time. If that can be profitable for them depends on how many attacks they could pull off at once and what they yielded.
1402 2014-04-29 17:25:10 <gmaxwell> (also depends on who takes the orphan risk)
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1425 2014-04-29 17:51:28 <mr_burdell> is there any instance where bitcoind will reorganize the blocks without a longer chain?
1426 2014-04-29 17:51:41 <mr_burdell> if it has another chain where the difficulty is higher will it pick that one?
1427 2014-04-29 17:52:28 <jgarzik> a lot of the attacks that can succeed right now are burst/flash attacks, but not ongoing ones.  e.g. someone can usually get away with a double-spend or finney attack once or twice, but not succeed in sustaining the attack over time.
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1430 2014-04-29 17:52:55 <jgarzik> As a result, you need to make your ROI back in that one initial attack, to recover costs
1431 2014-04-29 17:53:16 <kadoban> mr_burdell: it chooses based on difficulty-wise longest, which just means the one with the most work in it
1432 2014-04-29 17:53:30 <jgarzik> the union of sets "possible attacks" and "returns ROI" are luckily small AFAWK
1433 2014-04-29 17:53:49 <mr_burdell> so even if there are two with the same block height, it may choose another chain if the difficulty was higher
1434 2014-04-29 17:54:12 <kadoban> yes
1435 2014-04-29 17:54:39 <jgarzik> IOW, stealing small amounts of value is probably doable once.  To make it lucrative, you must either steal a lot of small values at once, or steal small values over time.  Given above logic, the latter avenue is unlikely.
1436 2014-04-29 17:54:53 <mr_burdell> ok... trying to find a cause of a race condition... and I think that must be it
1437 2014-04-29 17:54:57 <mr_burdell> thanks
1438 2014-04-29 17:55:11 <jgarzik> Personally I would wait 24 hours before settling a > $100k transaction
1439 2014-04-29 17:55:18 <jgarzik> but I'm paranoid
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1454 2014-04-29 18:04:53 <phantomcircuit> <jgarzik> As a result, you need to make your ROI back in that one initial attack, to recover costs
1455 2014-04-29 18:05:07 <phantomcircuit> not to mention those attacks all require significant mining power
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1457 2014-04-29 18:05:27 <phantomcircuit> a sustained attack like that would make bitcoin worth much less
1458 2014-04-29 18:05:36 <phantomcircuit> and by proxy would make all that mining hardware worth much less
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1464 2014-04-29 18:08:59 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, and make the pool that did the attacking worth less
1465 2014-04-29 18:09:08 <jgarzik> if a pool is assisting
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1468 2014-04-29 18:10:01 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, well, a basic network-race double-spend is doable today without mining collusion
1469 2014-04-29 18:10:08 Milanito__ has joined
1470 2014-04-29 18:10:15 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, it is nonetheless a difficult avenue to sustain
1471 2014-04-29 18:10:15 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, if miners would run bfgminer that wouldn't be an issue :P
1472 2014-04-29 18:10:52 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, network-race double-spend for unconfirmed or 1 confirm transactions yes
1473 2014-04-29 18:11:14 <phantomcircuit> 2 confirms? the reward has to be > 25btc
1474 2014-04-29 18:11:39 <phantomcircuit> for 25 btc you're gonna wait 6 confirms
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1486 2014-04-29 18:21:53 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, yep
1487 2014-04-29 18:22:13 <jgarzik> so, you will see isolated teenagers stealing isolated bitcoin pizzas
1488 2014-04-29 18:24:30 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, shrug, it's easy enough to setup off blockchain payment systems for small amounts
1489 2014-04-29 18:25:22 <phantomcircuit> and afaict it's legal to operate such a service in certain jurisdictions over tor (ie you have no idea where your customers are)
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1491 2014-04-29 18:26:24 s7r_g is now known as s7r
1492 2014-04-29 18:26:26 <maaku> phantomcircuit: it's not illegal to operate a service behind tor
1493 2014-04-29 18:26:40 <maaku> you may need to KYC your customers, but that doesn't mean they can't use tor
1494 2014-04-29 18:26:51 <phantomcircuit> maaku, no but it's likely illegal to operate an off blockchain payments system in the us without mt licenses
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1497 2014-04-29 18:28:02 <phantomcircuit> bitcoin apparently counts as "money" under the law (which isn't super surprising if you actually read the definition of money used all over the place)
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1506 2014-04-29 18:44:39 <ndak> hi i need to setup a openvpn server with PEM. Do you have time? I gonna pay you /msg me
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1508 2014-04-29 18:46:00 <sipa> ndak: not here; second warning
1509 2014-04-29 18:46:42 <ndak> sipa ok bro
1510 2014-04-29 18:47:00 <ndak> sipa you are the owner here right?
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1521 2014-04-29 18:55:55 <lt_cmdr_lore> we do not see a bitcoind command like sendfromaddresstoaddress ?
1522 2014-04-29 18:56:23 <Luke-Jr> lt_cmdr_lore: because there is no such thing as a from address
1523 2014-04-29 18:56:28 <Luke-Jr> addresses only receive, not send
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1525 2014-04-29 18:57:16 <lt_cmdr_lore> Luke-Jr: hm? if I received funds to address 1abcd that I controll, what would be the command to send exactly and only from 1abcd to address 1foobar?
1526 2014-04-29 18:57:33 <Luke-Jr> lt_cmdr_lore: addresses do not hold funds, they only receive them
1527 2014-04-29 18:57:39 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: build the transaction yourself using the raw transaction api
1528 2014-04-29 18:57:41 <ndak> Luke-Jr +1
1529 2014-04-29 18:57:47 <Luke-Jr> once received, the funds are no longer associated to the address
1530 2014-04-29 18:58:04 <ndak> they are
1531 2014-04-29 18:58:06 <Luke-Jr> (please ignore websites that do poor forensics and make false claims like "from address xyz")
1532 2014-04-29 18:58:10 <lt_cmdr_lore> Luke-Jr: what on earth?
1533 2014-04-29 18:58:14 <ndak> input and output
1534 2014-04-29 18:58:29 <sipa> transaction inputs are previous transaction outputs, not addresses
1535 2014-04-29 18:58:50 <ndak> sipa but you could find connection between them
1536 2014-04-29 18:59:01 <sipa> thinking of it as sending "from" an address is confusing, as it makes people think that bitcoin works internally using address balances, which is not the case
1537 2014-04-29 18:59:01 <Luke-Jr> ndak: you can find connections between entirely unrelated transactions
1538 2014-04-29 18:59:08 <sipa> it's just coins being created and consumed
1539 2014-04-29 18:59:17 <ndak> Luke-Jr: yes, but thats is not relevant.
1540 2014-04-29 18:59:21 <Luke-Jr> ndak: it is relevant
1541 2014-04-29 18:59:24 <lt_cmdr_lore> yeah technicalyly it operates on key pairs but in short the address represents the pubkey that represents private key that actually holds the funds, right?
1542 2014-04-29 18:59:40 <Luke-Jr> lt_cmdr_lore: that's breaking down abstractions that exist for a reason
1543 2014-04-29 18:59:41 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: the point is that the transaction spends coins, not from addresses
1544 2014-04-29 18:59:57 WishBoy has joined
1545 2014-04-29 18:59:57 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: using the raw transaction api you can choose exactly the coins you want if you want that level of control
1546 2014-04-29 19:00:10 <lt_cmdr_lore> oh right, I can have multiply coins "on" given address, big ones, and dust and so on
1547 2014-04-29 19:00:11 <sipa> but generally it's advised to consider wallets as one pile of coins without distinction
1548 2014-04-29 19:00:16 <lt_cmdr_lore> indeed
1549 2014-04-29 19:00:22 <sipa> also, it's advised to not reuse addresses
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1551 2014-04-29 19:00:47 <lt_cmdr_lore> ok so I ment, could we have a very precise  sendfromcointoaddress  and a bit more general sendfromaddresstoadress (that will pick any coins that are on that 1st address)
1552 2014-04-29 19:00:55 <lt_cmdr_lore> both being more detailed then current sendfromaccount
1553 2014-04-29 19:00:56 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: no
1554 2014-04-29 19:01:06 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: if you need that level of control, use the raw transaction api
1555 2014-04-29 19:01:20 <Luke-Jr> lt_cmdr_lore: to ever make a decision based on the input coins used in a transaction, is inherently broken; therefore, selecting input coins is encouraging broken behaviour (ignoring trying to foil forensics)
1556 2014-04-29 19:01:31 <sipa> but the abstraction provided by the bitcoin wallet is per-wallet balances
1557 2014-04-29 19:01:32 <lt_cmdr_lore> why not make that a normal part of bitcoind commands sipa? it seems handy
1558 2014-04-29 19:01:42 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: it encourages micromanagement
1559 2014-04-29 19:01:44 <Luke-Jr> lt_cmdr_lore: it is useless
1560 2014-04-29 19:02:02 <sipa> and if you don't reuse addresses, there is no point
1561 2014-04-29 19:02:20 <lt_cmdr_lore> sipa: taking donations to 1ltcmdl0r58913... seems the usuall usecase
1562 2014-04-29 19:02:29 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: unfortunately, yes
1563 2014-04-29 19:02:36 <sipa> there is a separate problem, namely that bitcoin doesn't support multiple wallets
1564 2014-04-29 19:02:37 <lt_cmdr_lore> what would be a downside to this?
1565 2014-04-29 19:02:40 <Luke-Jr> lt_cmdr_lore: it's still bad practice, and not to be encouraged.
1566 2014-04-29 19:03:04 <sipa> many of the reason why people want that level of control is just to keep funds separate
1567 2014-04-29 19:03:17 <uiop> what's the deal with vanity addresses, is the algo the generate one essentially brute-force search?
1568 2014-04-29 19:03:17 <lt_cmdr_lore> sipa: I would find it usefull when I store money for my friends on "accounts" A, B, C, D
1569 2014-04-29 19:03:21 <sipa> the right solution for that is having multiple wallets
1570 2014-04-29 19:03:26 <lt_cmdr_lore> I do not want to spend "their" coins on my own transactions
1571 2014-04-29 19:03:27 <kadoban> uiop: yes
1572 2014-04-29 19:03:27 <Luke-Jr> lt_cmdr_lore: bitcoin was designed on the assumption that doesn't happen. you lose even basic privacy (to the point of possibly breaking consumer protection laws in some cases), and even security to an extent.
1573 2014-04-29 19:03:30 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: accounts are not transactions
1574 2014-04-29 19:03:35 <lt_cmdr_lore> multiply wallets require 20 GB each, best of ssd
1575 2014-04-29 19:03:37 <Luke-Jr> uiop: yes
1576 2014-04-29 19:03:47 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: yes, as i said, it's a flaw that we don't support multiple wallets
1577 2014-04-29 19:03:54 <uiop> ah
1578 2014-04-29 19:04:06 <lt_cmdr_lore> after hacks I stored coins from many friends as they didnt knew how to do it correctly
1579 2014-04-29 19:04:06 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: but that is the right solution; breaking the wallet abstraction
1580 2014-04-29 19:04:19 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I agree multi-wallet is a nice feature, but I'd personally much prefer bitcoind-accounts that work properly with the GUI and can be backed up sanely. :P
1581 2014-04-29 19:04:32 <lt_cmdr_lore> I would rather not spend their coins. dunno maybe they are connected with recreational substances that part of the world go crazy about or anything
1582 2014-04-29 19:04:46 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: sure, that's a very good reason
1583 2014-04-29 19:04:51 <lt_cmdr_lore> and I do not do that enough to write a personal web wallet thing, or a scripting tool
1584 2014-04-29 19:04:55 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: but it's still the wrong solution to it
1585 2014-04-29 19:04:56 <lt_cmdr_lore> well I could but no time
1586 2014-04-29 19:05:07 <Luke-Jr> lt_cmdr_lore: coins are not owned, just controlled. what your friends own is title to "X bitcoins" in your wallet.
1587 2014-04-29 19:05:14 <lt_cmdr_lore> is it not better to offer such tool, then to have other people in my position each write own tool to switch wallets.
1588 2014-04-29 19:05:31 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: i'd rather see someone contribute to multiwallet support :)
1589 2014-04-29 19:05:58 <lt_cmdr_lore> ok
1590 2014-04-29 19:06:08 <lt_cmdr_lore> sipa: I asked before, not sure if anyone replied
1591 2014-04-29 19:06:24 <lt_cmdr_lore> are there any fundings for development or this
1592 2014-04-29 19:06:33 <Luke-Jr> lt_cmdr_lore: you're confusing the currency abstraction layer, with the technical implementation. Coins (UTXOs) exist on the technical layer. Ownership is on the currency layer.
1593 2014-04-29 19:06:50 <lt_cmdr_lore> I probably know people who would implement this for some funds ;  other idea, I could onate (a bit) towards a bounty to have that developed quickly by someone else too :)
1594 2014-04-29 19:06:52 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: someone still has to write it, test it, get it reviewed, ...
1595 2014-04-29 19:06:56 <Luke-Jr> lt_cmdr_lore: CodeShark has implemented multiwallet before, but abandoned it before cleanup to merge it .. might be able to bribe him ;)
1596 2014-04-29 19:07:18 <lt_cmdr_lore> CodeShark: sup
1597 2014-04-29 19:07:38 <sipa> right now, he will probably point you to his own wallet implementation, which he wrote afterwards
1598 2014-04-29 19:07:50 <lt_cmdr_lore> if CodeShark would be not willing to, are there fundings for this or not?
1599 2014-04-29 19:08:13 <lt_cmdr_lore> I would imagine bitcoin development should be swimming in half million donations.  is this not the acse?
1600 2014-04-29 19:08:19 <sipa> lol
1601 2014-04-29 19:08:25 <lt_cmdr_lore> or at least several thousands
1602 2014-04-29 19:08:27 <kadoban> Hah
1603 2014-04-29 19:08:34 <lt_cmdr_lore> I mean usd not btc, to clarify :)
1604 2014-04-29 19:08:35 <Luke-Jr> lol
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1606 2014-04-29 19:08:59 <Luke-Jr> if the Foundation has had that much donations, they're holding back on the devteam ;)
1607 2014-04-29 19:09:12 <lt_cmdr_lore> well I would donate 100 usd
1608 2014-04-29 19:09:32 <lt_cmdr_lore> si there a bounties program?
1609 2014-04-29 19:09:41 <Luke-Jr> lt_cmdr_lore: not really
1610 2014-04-29 19:09:51 <lt_cmdr_lore> this is astounding
1611 2014-04-29 19:10:09 <lt_cmdr_lore> bitcoin development is number #1 world in the world imo to run on crypto donations
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1613 2014-04-29 19:11:40 <lt_cmdr_lore> ok, while interested in btc, I must admit I did not looked into tech things for a long time, could anyone tell me exactly how to move given "coin" to new address
1614 2014-04-29 19:12:05 <lt_cmdr_lore> so with listunspent I see the actuall coins I own right?  scriptPubKey is the important thing right?
1615 2014-04-29 19:12:24 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: scriptPubKey defines the condition under which it can be spent
1616 2014-04-29 19:12:35 <sipa> and indeed, listunspent lists the coin your wallet has access to
1617 2014-04-29 19:12:47 <sipa> whether you own them is a legal question :)
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1621 2014-04-29 19:14:29 <lt_cmdr_lore> is there a ready to use good FOSS tool to list my coins and send them individually, or is that something to be coded yet
1622 2014-04-29 19:14:56 <sipa> a bash oneliner would do
1623 2014-04-29 19:15:12 <sipa> actually, i think there is a python script for that in the contrib directory
1624 2014-04-29 19:15:18 <lt_cmdr_lore> where listunspends lists the unique identifier of my coin actually?
1625 2014-04-29 19:16:08 <sipa> txid + vout is the unique identifier
1626 2014-04-29 19:16:18 <lt_cmdr_lore> isn't txid meallable
1627 2014-04-29 19:16:24 <sipa> not after it's confirmed
1628 2014-04-29 19:16:51 <lt_cmdr_lore> also the script has pubkey in it obviously right?
1629 2014-04-29 19:16:59 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1630 2014-04-29 19:17:02 <sipa> actually, no :)
1631 2014-04-29 19:17:12 <lt_cmdr_lore> but that is just again the addresse's pub key right?
1632 2014-04-29 19:17:14 <sipa> it has the pubkey hash, isueally
1633 2014-04-29 19:17:28 Luke-Jr has joined
1634 2014-04-29 19:17:39 <lt_cmdr_lore> yeah hash
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1638 2014-04-29 19:18:33 <lt_cmdr_lore> so the actuall identifier of a coin is number of txid (which is embbed in some block after time) plus which exactly vout (because you can sendtomany) right?
1639 2014-04-29 19:18:59 Luke-Jr has quit (Client Quit)
1640 2014-04-29 19:19:16 <lt_cmdr_lore> and btw joining works to remove the connection by oddly taking multiply inputs (from possibly not related people/wallets) into one tx (and then sending back to many, on various vouts)?
1641 2014-04-29 19:19:51 <sipa> not sure how that removes a connection
1642 2014-04-29 19:20:01 <kadoban> Are you talking about mixing?
1643 2014-04-29 19:20:03 <sipa> but yes, a transaction consumes some coins, and produces new coins from it
1644 2014-04-29 19:20:07 <lt_cmdr_lore> coin join
1645 2014-04-29 19:20:34 <sipa> what people often call "from address" is the address the consumed coins were previously sent to
1646 2014-04-29 19:20:39 chainey has quit (Quit: chainey)
1647 2014-04-29 19:20:49 <sipa> but that 1) isn't always possible (not every scriptPubKey is an address)
1648 2014-04-29 19:21:06 <sipa> 2) there is no guarantee that sending coins to such an address makes them end up with the sender
1649 2014-04-29 19:21:14 <sipa> (for example shared wallets, or coinjoin)
1650 2014-04-29 19:21:19 belcher has joined
1651 2014-04-29 19:21:31 <sipa> 3) it gives a bad understanding of how wallets work
1652 2014-04-29 19:21:39 <lt_cmdr_lore> cool
1653 2014-04-29 19:21:53 <lt_cmdr_lore> I'm looking forward to refreshing my memory on all this crypto if I have time :)
1654 2014-04-29 19:22:05 <sipa> coinjoin is indeed taking inputs and outputs from several people's transactions, and combining them into one
1655 2014-04-29 19:22:14 Luke-Jr has joined
1656 2014-04-29 19:22:16 <sipa> so you don't know who is the owner of the resulting keys
1657 2014-04-29 19:22:40 <sipa> *coins
1658 2014-04-29 19:22:43 <lt_cmdr_lore> sipa: so to make it clear, we do not really have funds to give to people to work on bitcoind, entither we don't have any bounty program running?
1659 2014-04-29 19:23:04 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: wumpus and gavin are paid by the bitcoin foundation
1660 2014-04-29 19:23:29 <lt_cmdr_lore> I mean bounties to enable to libertarian spirit of people in a kick-starter way
1661 2014-04-29 19:23:47 <lt_cmdr_lore> I guess such a thing would be good, e.g. ther are things to do for long (like multiwallet)
1662 2014-04-29 19:24:07 <sipa> i'd rather see the wallet split off from the core project :)
1663 2014-04-29 19:24:21 <lt_cmdr_lore> btw sipa after switching wallet.dat how node should be restarted to work correctly (assuming it was in consistent state when sutting down with previous wallet)?
1664 2014-04-29 19:24:43 <sipa> shutdown; swap wallet; start
1665 2014-04-29 19:24:45 <sipa> that's it
1666 2014-04-29 19:24:56 <lt_cmdr_lore> sipa: it could be actually a separate process even.  blockchain-db, to which bitcoind would taking via simple api like getblock / putblock
1667 2014-04-29 19:25:07 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: yes
1668 2014-04-29 19:25:11 <sipa> that's the idea
1669 2014-04-29 19:25:30 <lt_cmdr_lore> sipa: there is no need for rescan nor for reindex to recognize payments done to me (or done by my private keys) during given key was offline?
1670 2014-04-29 19:25:43 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: the wallet knows up to which block it is synchronized
1671 2014-04-29 19:26:01 <lt_cmdr_lore> perhasp 1000 block passed "with wallet A activted" during which time some adddresses in B were payed from or payed to
1672 2014-04-29 19:26:02 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: at startup it will detect the blockchain is newer than that, and rescan the added part
1673 2014-04-29 19:26:12 <lt_cmdr_lore> so it keeps sync per wallet or per block?
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1675 2014-04-29 19:26:16 ryanxcharles has joined
1676 2014-04-29 19:26:21 <sipa> i don't understand
1677 2014-04-29 19:26:22 freggles has joined
1678 2014-04-29 19:26:26 <lt_cmdr_lore> sipa: good to know that. afair it was not the case in the past
1679 2014-04-29 19:26:35 Luke-Jr has joined
1680 2014-04-29 19:26:35 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: it's been that way for that past 2 years
1681 2014-04-29 19:26:50 <sipa> but somehow people kept repeating that -rescan was necessary
1682 2014-04-29 19:27:00 <lt_cmdr_lore> sipa: I was wondering what if wallet would be manually manipulated e.g. if it would had private keys added.  would it know to rescan for the new key?  this is concerning wallet repairs... I guess a bit of theorethical question
1683 2014-04-29 19:27:18 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: that is what -rescan is for, if you manually tinker with the wallet file
1684 2014-04-29 19:27:26 <lt_cmdr_lore> and only for that then?
1685 2014-04-29 19:27:30 <sipa> yes
1686 2014-04-29 19:27:34 <lt_cmdr_lore> ok and reindex?
1687 2014-04-29 19:27:51 <lt_cmdr_lore> I glaced at code a bit but that was not all that clear (nor from the help)
1688 2014-04-29 19:27:52 <sipa> that's for when you validation database is corrupted
1689 2014-04-29 19:28:02 <sipa> -reindex has nothing to do with the wallet
1690 2014-04-29 19:28:13 <sipa> it's also interesting for benchmarking validation speed
1691 2014-04-29 19:28:15 <lt_cmdr_lore> perhaps the thing about not needed to be used on switching wallets should go into bitcoind's help
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1693 2014-04-29 19:28:31 <lt_cmdr_lore> sipa: would you want such cosmetic patch? friends can push it later or tomorrow
1694 2014-04-29 19:28:54 <sipa> i don't like bitcoind's help encouraging switching wallets at all
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1696 2014-04-29 19:29:01 <sipa> it's an ugly process
1697 2014-04-29 19:29:16 <lt_cmdr_lore> sipa: but it is the only solution for current time (using just bitcoind) for the task we discussed
1698 2014-04-29 19:29:24 <sipa> unless you use another wallet
1699 2014-04-29 19:29:32 <lt_cmdr_lore> once multiwallet work both can be suggest to NOT switch wallets
1700 2014-04-29 19:30:00 <sipa> currently, there is no support for switching wallets, and i don't want to encourage it
1701 2014-04-29 19:30:05 <sipa> if you do so, you're on your own
1702 2014-04-29 19:30:20 <sipa> if that doesn't suffice for people, they can try to push for multiwallet support
1703 2014-04-29 19:30:29 <sipa> it's the only right solution
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1711 2014-04-29 19:36:11 <lt_cmdr_lore> sipa: uh so right now you would suggest to run two (or several) full nodes (ech using 20 gb) to hold coins for friends or family members?
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1713 2014-04-29 19:36:43 <sipa> lt_cmdr_lore: i wouldn't use bitcoind's wallet
1714 2014-04-29 19:37:00 <wumpus> lt_cmdr_lore: I suggest using a different wallet, for example armory
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1720 2014-04-29 19:42:45 <wumpus> lt_cmdr_lore: it still runs a full node (bitcoind) in the backrground, so has the same level of security, but has more features than bitcoind's wallet, including multiwallet support
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1725 2014-04-29 19:45:16 <wumpus> alternatively, you can run any number of SPV wallets with one bitcoind of your own
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1740 2014-04-29 19:54:03 <hearn> jgarzik: so it turns out there’s a bit of a story there … it’s not a bug with bitpay like it seemed at first
1741 2014-04-29 19:54:05 <hearn> jgarzik: so you can ignore me
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1761 2014-04-29 20:06:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|hearn: yeah, we do that anyway :-P
1762 2014-04-29 20:06:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(jk)
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1835 2014-04-29 20:59:39 <abrkn\> what's a good way to manage a hot wallet where addresses come from bip32? i was hoping to derive addresses and use importprivkey, but that operation takes like 10 min per address. another option is to sweep into a hot wallet, but that leads to the manual key management that gmaxwell has advised against
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1874 2014-04-29 21:28:24 <hearn> sipa: with the current block download algorithm do we end up downloading the block chain from each peer that announces any block?
1875 2014-04-29 21:28:33 <hearn> i.e. with 8 connections we’d try and download the chain 8 times in parallel?
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1890 2014-04-29 21:37:18 <sipa> hearn: no, we don't download any block twice
1891 2014-04-29 21:37:46 <sipa> hearn: but announcements arriving from several peers confuses the download algorithm
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1893 2014-04-29 21:37:48 <hearn> i thought that was the reason for all the duplicate messages during ibd
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1895 2014-04-29 21:38:06 <sipa> you shouldn't see any duplicate messages since 0.9
1896 2014-04-29 21:38:09 <hearn> ah ok
1897 2014-04-29 21:38:14 <hearn> didn’t realise that was fixed
1898 2014-04-29 21:38:33 <hearn> i’m wondering why there’s so many complaints about bandwidth usage, and whether there might be some redundant downloading going on
1899 2014-04-29 21:38:48 <sipa> earlier versions tried to prevent it, but only by not asking for the same block twice within a window of time
1900 2014-04-29 21:39:07 <sipa> since 0.9 we keep track of blocks being rwquested and which peer
1901 2014-04-29 21:39:29 <sipa> however, 0.9 also limits the number of orphans held in memory
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1903 2014-04-29 21:39:42 <sipa> and that does cause some duplicate downloading
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1905 2014-04-29 21:39:56 <hearn> ah
1906 2014-04-29 21:40:02 <hearn> right.
1907 2014-04-29 21:40:15 <hearn> i guess headers first is the one true fix for this
1908 2014-04-29 21:40:27 <hearn> the bandwidth usage numbers people are seeing feels rather out of whack to me
1909 2014-04-29 21:41:06 <sipa> yes, we need headers first & parallel block fetching
1910 2014-04-29 21:41:13 <hearn> we have thousands of nodes and the number is falling. so how is it that nodes are pushing half a terabyte of data per month … seems hard for so many new nodes to create such bandwidth requirement, unless they are all starting, finishing sync and shutting down again
1911 2014-04-29 21:41:26 <sipa> it's embarrassing how badly the sync works now
1912 2014-04-29 21:41:28 <hearn> well right now i’d settle for just no duplicates :) as i guess bandwidth usage is the main reason we’re bleeding nodes atm
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1914 2014-04-29 21:42:12 <sipa> i think there are many nodes that try to sync for a while, and then give up
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1916 2014-04-29 21:42:31 <sipa> causing some gigabytes wasted volume
1917 2014-04-29 21:42:36 <hearn> probably
1918 2014-04-29 21:43:02 <hearn> is there some review i can do to help move things along?
1919 2014-04-29 21:43:10 <hearn> i’ve lost track of where that project is up to
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1921 2014-04-29 21:43:47 <sipa> you reviewed the current last patch i have
1922 2014-04-29 21:43:54 <sipa> but it's not merged yet
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1924 2014-04-29 21:44:09 <hearn> ok
1925 2014-04-29 21:44:17 <sipa> next step is some locking issues, the mutex grabs are too long now
1926 2014-04-29 21:44:29 <sipa> reconnecting an orohan chain can lock cs main for minites
1927 2014-04-29 21:44:30 peper has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1928 2014-04-29 21:44:36 <sipa> *minutes
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1931 2014-04-29 21:45:59 <hearn> does that matter much during ibd? the gui won’t freeze, right
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1934 2014-04-29 21:46:13 <hearn> and i guess most RPC is useless during this time
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1936 2014-04-29 21:46:59 <sipa> anything you try to do in the gui will freeze
1937 2014-04-29 21:47:51 <hearn> oh. i thought the gui mostly wanted cs_wallet
1938 2014-04-29 21:48:12 <sipa> we do mempool checks now to find wallet conflicts
1939 2014-04-29 21:48:21 <hearn> ahh
1940 2014-04-29 21:48:24 <sipa> those don't texhnically need cs main, but right now we do
1941 2014-04-29 21:48:26 <hearn> that makes sense
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1944 2014-04-29 21:49:03 <hearn> so tightening mempool to just require cs_mempool everywhere might be a simple fix for that. if json rpc hangs up during ibd no big deal imo
1945 2014-04-29 21:49:16 <hearn> and wallet contents would not be reliable during this time anyway
1946 2014-04-29 21:49:29 <hearn> then it’d be ok for cs_main to be locked for a while
1947 2014-04-29 21:49:39 <sipa> well, it is easy enough to bring the cs main locks down to much shorter periods
1948 2014-04-29 21:49:49 <sipa> by not doing the whole reorg in one lock
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1951 2014-04-29 21:50:08 <sipa> but release it shortly every time a strictly better valid tip has been found
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1953 2014-04-29 21:50:35 <hearn> “release it shortly” can not always be entirely effective, iirc
1954 2014-04-29 21:50:40 <hearn> OS locks are often not really fair
1955 2014-04-29 21:50:49 <hearn> but it might work
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1957 2014-04-29 21:50:51 <hearn> never tried it
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1959 2014-04-29 21:51:01 <sipa> it needs to happen anyway
1960 2014-04-29 21:51:14 <gmaxwell> I didn't think we were mearging much/anything right now that wouldn't go in 0.9.1?
1961 2014-04-29 21:51:38 <sipa> yeah, all this is likely for later
1962 2014-04-29 21:52:02 <hearn> surely there can be a 0.9.1 branch ? it seems odd to constrain development because a patch release is coming up
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1965 2014-04-29 21:52:36 <sipa> there doesn't exist anytging right now that significantly improves anything
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1967 2014-04-29 21:52:43 <sipa> so the question isn't relevant :)
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1970 2014-04-29 21:53:37 <hearn> right :)
1971 2014-04-29 21:53:37 <gmaxwell> Right now creating a branch means we lose all the ci testing and informal testing on master, so no need to rush to it until there is some cause to break off, I suppose. But wasn't my call to keep master clean of major changes for the moment.
1972 2014-04-29 21:53:57 <sipa> also, you mean 0.9.2
1973 2014-04-29 21:54:00 <hearn> good point
1974 2014-04-29 21:54:30 <gmaxwell> right. sorry, 0.9.1 was a do nothing release. :P
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