1 2014-05-01 00:00:13 <SoftwareMechanic> Ya, there's too much info.  It's hard to know what's reliable.
   2 2014-05-01 00:00:23 <kadoban> SoftwareMechanic: Are you trying to generate random numbers once?  Use a bunch of dice. If you're trying to do it quickly and repeatably, use some decent software.
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   4 2014-05-01 00:01:09 <SoftwareMechanic> just once
   5 2014-05-01 00:01:34 <SoftwareMechanic> but I'm using it to seed my bip39 mnemonic, so I want it to be solid
   6 2014-05-01 00:02:04 <SoftwareMechanic> I'm blending it with another source, but I'm wondering if I really just need a hardware RNG
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  10 2014-05-01 00:04:47 <SoftwareMechanic> ANSI X9.17 Looks promising
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  15 2014-05-01 00:09:11 <SoftwareMechanic> https://www.schneier.com/paper-prngs.pdf
  16 2014-05-01 00:09:16 <SoftwareMechanic> Looks like it has some issues though
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  83 2014-05-01 01:32:46 <akstunt600> hey anyone else have problems with GPA on ubuntu/debian
  84 2014-05-01 01:33:00 <akstunt600> its buggy as all hell anymore
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  95 2014-05-01 01:41:29 <cpacia> ya it doesn't work right on trusty tahr
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 110 2014-05-01 01:55:26 <akstunt600> cpacia, Thanks
 111 2014-05-01 01:55:36 <akstunt600> Ill just do it the ole fashion way
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 317 2014-05-01 06:09:24 <rccola> Hey, anyone around?
 318 2014-05-01 06:09:50 benrcole has joined
 319 2014-05-01 06:10:14 <sipa> no
 320 2014-05-01 06:10:22 <sipa> sorry, you're all alone
 321 2014-05-01 06:10:54 <rccola> foreveralone
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 323 2014-05-01 06:12:32 <rccola> I'm trying to build an online wallet with Rails on Heroku... was wondering the best route to take.  Would this typically be communicating through the JSON-RPC on a seperate server running bitcoind or using something like bitcoin-ruby?
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 332 2014-05-01 06:17:53 <Dizzle> rccola: I'd say a good start is that it depends on the number of transactions you expect to be making and if you'll be having to track separate "balance"s for this app/site's users.
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 336 2014-05-01 06:20:11 <rccola> Dizzle: How so?  Sorry for the ignorance.
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 338 2014-05-01 06:22:11 <rccola> better to have a separate server running bitcoind for higher volume?  does that create issues with balance tracking for multiple users?
 339 2014-05-01 06:23:04 <survic> you'll struggle scaling anything with bitcoind. it's not designed for anything like that.
 340 2014-05-01 06:26:04 <rccola> why's that?
 341 2014-05-01 06:26:13 <Dizzle> So, bitcoind's balance tracking in general is best not to rely upon, even for one person, so if you're tracking balances, already you want to be using a custom solution. It does an OK job of scaling simple HTTP back and forths, but scaling anything else, not so great. For example, the decision making process for which unspent outputs to aggregate as inputs for a new transaction... the algorithm is built for a personal wallet user, not for
 342 2014-05-01 06:26:13 <Dizzle> a multi-user application or automated spender.
 343 2014-05-01 06:26:58 <rccola> Cool. Thanks.
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 345 2014-05-01 06:27:06 <Dizzle> i.e. it will start to take longer and longer to figure out a combinations of unspent outputs to use as input.
 346 2014-05-01 06:27:36 <gmaxwell> Dizzle: it won't— what generally, but for unspent its slow and basically intentionally so.
 347 2014-05-01 06:28:24 _andares has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 348 2014-05-01 06:28:28 <gmaxwell> the normal coin selection is reasonable fast even with many tens of thousands of inputs to choose form.
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 350 2014-05-01 06:29:17 <Dizzle> gmaxwell: is it when it gets to the change outputs that it has a bottleneck?
 351 2014-05-01 06:29:48 <gmaxwell> Dizzle: unconfirmed change in particular.
 352 2014-05-01 06:30:00 <Dizzle> ahh, thanks for the clarification
 353 2014-05-01 06:30:25 <gmaxwell> (change itself is fine, but when its unconfirmed it does a rather sillyly constructed traversal to see if the parents are also change or confirmed.
 354 2014-05-01 06:30:39 <gmaxwell> And that is something like O(n!))
 355 2014-05-01 06:30:59 <sipa> gmaxwell: not since 0.9 afaik
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 357 2014-05-01 06:31:23 <gmaxwell> oh did that get fixed? ... hm yea it would be.
 358 2014-05-01 06:31:58 <sipa> it uses isconfirmed or (isinmempool and isfromme) afaik
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 363 2014-05-01 06:36:04 <rccola> So, what are the big sites like Coinbase/Bitpay using for the wallet?  I read somewhere bitcoin-ruby.  Got it running.  But, am trying to wrap my head around what it actually does.
 364 2014-05-01 06:36:30 <rccola> Looks like it connects directly to the network, right?
 365 2014-05-01 06:37:04 <survic> no, you wouldn't want that. they would be running something custom behind a bitcoind node (or many)
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 367 2014-05-01 06:38:22 <rccola> interesting
 368 2014-05-01 06:38:44 <sipa> rccola: you have to understand that bitcoind provides two separate functions: block and transaction validation on the network, and a wallet implementation
 369 2014-05-01 06:38:57 <sipa> there are many other wallet implementations though
 370 2014-05-01 06:38:58 chainey has quit (Quit: chainey)
 371 2014-05-01 06:39:35 <sipa> and if you connect them to a bitcoind node that you can teust/control, you get the same validation for your wallet
 372 2014-05-01 06:40:07 <survic> you don't really want to be running your own networking code. it's just asking for disaster (bitcoin-ruby has had consensus issues like that in the past)
 373 2014-05-01 06:40:22 <sipa> networking code is fine
 374 2014-05-01 06:40:28 <Belxjander> What are teh essentials for blockchain storage and forwarding?
 375 2014-05-01 06:40:29 the_2nd has joined
 376 2014-05-01 06:40:39 <Belxjander> What are the essentials for the "Wallet" functionality?
 377 2014-05-01 06:40:41 <survic> can't find the post on it, but somebody on bitcointalk managed to fork bitcoin-ruby off the network with an edge rule
 378 2014-05-01 06:40:45 <sipa> reimplementing the consensus rules is asking for trouble
 379 2014-05-01 06:40:50 <Belxjander> is there any "overlap" of operations between the two sets?
 380 2014-05-01 06:41:17 <sipa> Belxjander: well there are enough wallet that do not do any blockchain storage or validation
 381 2014-05-01 06:41:47 <sipa> survic: happened more than once
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 383 2014-05-01 06:42:35 <survic> sipa: can't imagine btcd (bitcoind concensus rules in go) will fare much better unfortunately.
 384 2014-05-01 06:43:07 <Belxjander> sipa: I've been considering what is required just to become present...and run my own blockchain storage mechanism with it deliberately caching upto a 1 hour previous to current timeframe...ignoring validation and consensus rules
 385 2014-05-01 06:43:34 <sipa> Belxjander: what for?
 386 2014-05-01 06:43:56 <Belxjander> sipa: an "AmigaOS" blockchain store and Wallet library
 387 2014-05-01 06:44:17 <gmaxwell> You didn't answer the question.
 388 2014-05-01 06:44:18 <sipa> what do you want the blockchain store for?
 389 2014-05-01 06:44:22 <Belxjander> I would have nothing "base" to work from so would need to start at network level and build up an essential base...and then import what I can from core
 390 2014-05-01 06:44:26 <sipa> it's a means to end an
 391 2014-05-01 06:44:46 <Dizzle> rccola: here's an example multi-user-ready wallet implementation that relies upon bitcoind in the end for realizing the transactions on the bitcoin network. It's what localbitcoins.com uses: https://github.com/kangasbros/django-bitcoin
 392 2014-05-01 06:45:06 <rccola> Dizzle:  Sweet, thanks!
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 394 2014-05-01 06:48:18 <Belxjander> is there anything in the bitcoin-qt or another project with the consensus rules able to be seperated out and used as a link library?
 395 2014-05-01 06:48:47 <sipa> not right now, though there is slow work towards that
 396 2014-05-01 06:49:34 <sipa> but if you just want a wallet, an SPV implementation osn't that hard
 397 2014-05-01 06:49:44 <sipa> or rather, s/hard/critical/
 398 2014-05-01 06:49:47 <Belxjander> sipa: well I have a little bit of spare time and can probably work on Endianness issues along with abstraction and separation though I am still slogging through trying to get to grips with the internal workings of bitcoin-qt without being able to compile it
 399 2014-05-01 06:50:08 <Belxjander> sipa: well I want to start with a Wallet
 400 2014-05-01 06:50:15 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: why would you link that as a library? you really don't want to have a network daemon in the same memory space as your wallet.
 401 2014-05-01 06:50:44 <sipa> yeah, bitcoin core sets a bad example for that
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 403 2014-05-01 06:50:54 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: "shared memory model"...the library would be it's own thing with the daemon embedded there...the Wallet would be the Application using the library
 404 2014-05-01 06:51:32 <sipa> just run an spv wallet and a validation node separately
 405 2014-05-01 06:53:22 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: you really shouldn't have a network node in the same process as a wallet.
 406 2014-05-01 06:53:27 fpx_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 408 2014-05-01 06:53:42 <gmaxwell> Thats a choice I certantly wouldn't emulate.
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 410 2014-05-01 06:54:59 <rccola> I assume blockchain.info uses the Javascript wallet from https://github.com/blockchain/My-Wallet... is that sitting on top of a bitcoind node?
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 414 2014-05-01 06:56:45 <Dizzle> Belxjander: if you simply prefer programming against an imported API vs writing the web service calls to talk to bitcoind, there are plenty of libs to handle that part for ya, like https://github.com/sinisterchipmunk/bitcoin-client (C#), https://github.com/petertodd/python-bitcoinlib (Python), and https://github.com/sinisterchipmunk/bitcoin-client (Ruby) to name a few of many.
 415 2014-05-01 06:58:08 <Dizzle> correction, https://github.com/GeorgeKimionis/BitcoinLib/ (C#)
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 418 2014-05-01 06:59:42 <Belxjander> dizko: and the assumption of a Windows/Linux/Mac OS X host generally gets put on its nose and out the door... which is why I am even considering writing any code for this myself
 419 2014-05-01 07:01:36 <Dizzle> rccola: their's is a little more complicated than that django example. Here's the basics: https://blockchain.info/wallet/how-it-works <- the key being the part where it talks to blockchain's API. At that point, somewhere in the blockchain infrastructure, bitcoind might be responsible for putting a transaction on the bitcoin network, but others in here might be able to speak to the site's backend better than I.
 420 2014-05-01 07:02:05 <Dizzle> s/their's/theirs/
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 422 2014-05-01 07:03:33 <rccola> interesting
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 425 2014-05-01 07:05:07 <Dizzle> Belxjander: well, the beauty of web services such as bitcoind's RPC calls is just that: just about every platform has a way to make an HTTP request.
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 519 2014-05-01 09:10:14 <survic> you need to compile with ncurses.
 520 2014-05-01 09:11:08 <survic> (really need to fix my bindings)
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 523 2014-05-01 09:22:55 <wumpus> ncurses? are you going oldschool on us? :)
 524 2014-05-01 09:24:13 <survic> wumpus: cgminer/bfgminer needs ncurses for it's pretty interface, I wouldn't be against an ncurses bitcoin client though.
 525 2014-05-01 09:24:37 <wumpus> survic: https://github.com/bit-c/bitc :D
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 527 2014-05-01 09:26:46 <survic> wumpus: that's genuinely impressive
 528 2014-05-01 09:26:49 <wumpus> (can't vouch for its safety or security, but have compiled it and tried it out and it does what it promises)
 529 2014-05-01 09:28:21 <survic> should make a good testnet client
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 532 2014-05-01 09:34:10 <survic> wumpus: amazing. compiled first time, it feels lightning fast and has great features. I'd love to use this on mainnet when it's more mature.
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 535 2014-05-01 09:42:13 <FManTropyx> latest commits 2-3 months ago...
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 538 2014-05-01 09:53:13 <wumpus> it doesn't seem to be actively maintained, which is a pity
 539 2014-05-01 09:55:09 <wumpus> the C code is very readable so it's not like it would be difficult to pick up for someone interested
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 583 2014-05-01 11:21:57 <wumpus> also if you're not sure about the security of the SPV part, you could point it at your own trusted (walletless) bitcoind node
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 586 2014-05-01 11:23:56 <survic> I'd be more worried about a catastrophic failure of private key generation / storage or something like that.
 587 2014-05-01 11:24:00 <wumpus> (though you'd still need to audit that key generation for the wallet is ok)
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 591 2014-05-01 11:26:55 <wumpus> yes, (basic) BIP32 support would be great and would mostly alleviate those concerns
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 595 2014-05-01 11:31:00 <survic> BIP0032 is quite comforting like that actually. as long as the initial seed is strong the RNG is less of an issue. of course you still need a good one for your EC k, but it's one less thing to worry about.
 596 2014-05-01 11:31:04 <wumpus> though, in principle, bitcoin-qt has that same concern - we use OpenSSL for secure randomness
 597 2014-05-01 11:31:36 <SomeoneWeird> "secure"
 598 2014-05-01 11:31:38 <SomeoneWeird> >_>
 599 2014-05-01 11:31:39 <SomeoneWeird> <_<
 600 2014-05-01 11:31:45 * SomeoneWeird ducks
 601 2014-05-01 11:31:45 <survic> you really can't do any worse than Sony.
 602 2014-05-01 11:31:49 <wumpus> should be OK, but bugs happen
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 604 2014-05-01 11:32:29 <survic> if your rng has more than a single possible output, you're better than Sony at EC.
 605 2014-05-01 11:32:37 <wumpus> hehe
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 607 2014-05-01 11:36:00 <wumpus> SomeoneWeird: I think we should switch to using the Intel random instructions ;)
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 609 2014-05-01 11:37:24 <SomeoneWeird> wumpus, absolutely! we still haven't fixed issue #3615 or #3152 either
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 614 2014-05-01 11:40:11 <survic> using a static k while signing would reduce the dependency on OpenSSL and prevent address reuse.
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 620 2014-05-01 11:50:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|survic: AIUI it can't be a static value
 621 2014-05-01 11:50:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Because it needs to be secret, not just unique
 622 2014-05-01 11:51:09 <survic> you could hash your private key and use that as the secret, static value. I was being stupid so I didn't give it much thought as to how it would work.
 623 2014-05-01 11:55:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|survic: not exactly static
 624 2014-05-01 11:56:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, that's a bad idea
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 626 2014-05-01 11:56:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Because it means you couldn't, for example, rebroadcast a transaction with a higher fee
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 629 2014-05-01 11:58:20 <survic> it was meant to be a terrible idea, Sony style
 630 2014-05-01 11:58:32 non2 has joined
 631 2014-05-01 12:01:09 Plarkplark_ has joined
 632 2014-05-01 12:01:13 <Plarkplark_> What is going on here. https://blockchain.info/tx/6ea5c6f1a97f382f87523d13ef9f2ef17b828607107efdbba42a80b8a6555356
 633 2014-05-01 12:01:27 <Plarkplark_> Darkwallet transaction? Does this not break the blockchain
 634 2014-05-01 12:02:43 <sipa> wth is "break the blockchain" ?
 635 2014-05-01 12:02:49 <survic> what do you think is broken about that?
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 637 2014-05-01 12:02:57 <sipa> if it wasn't valid, it wouldn't get into the blockchain
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 648 2014-05-01 12:09:15 <Plarkplark_> I meant: where did the bitcoin go?
 649 2014-05-01 12:10:11 <Plarkplark_> sipa, small question. I have a discussion with a guy really into mining. He says that running a full node 24/7 with 30+ connections does not help the network because it does not mine.
 650 2014-05-01 12:10:35 <survic> it's OP_RETURN, no amount went anythere
 651 2014-05-01 12:11:15 <wumpus> Plarkplark_: not true; you'd still be helping the network by verifying/relaying transactions and blocks, and serving the stored blocks to other nodes
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 654 2014-05-01 12:11:43 <Plarkplark_> Ok. Because I invested a 100 bucks to get a few big ones running to help the network.
 655 2014-05-01 12:12:46 <wumpus> Plarkplark_: great!
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 658 2014-05-01 12:15:02 <FManTropyx> excuse me, is the lack of good nodes the reason why transactions take time to go through?
 659 2014-05-01 12:15:11 <sipa> no
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 661 2014-05-01 12:15:41 <sipa> miners deicde which transactions they put in blocks
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 663 2014-05-01 12:17:14 <FManTropyx> the people sit on their computers pressing Y or N? or does it just depend from the size of the fee?
 664 2014-05-01 12:17:33 <sipa> it's software that makes that decision of course
 665 2014-05-01 12:17:44 <sipa> but they do select transactions with more fee first yes
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 697 2014-05-01 12:59:50 <survic> the "is this breaking bitcoin" question seems to come from people proving that "dark wallet" is anonymous by linking to a transaction with an OP_RETURN output in it. blockchain.info can't display them, and that's seen as proof of it's transactions being private. I see that being asked a lot.
 698 2014-05-01 13:01:10 <hearn> lol
 699 2014-05-01 13:01:37 <arubi> any independent implementation of bitcoin transactions could be seen as private
 700 2014-05-01 13:01:54 <arubi> question is if _anyone_ can decode the tx, or only the sender \ recevier
 701 2014-05-01 13:03:27 <survic> seeing as the wallet in question makes requests to a remote API owned by the author by default, they're not private for the vast majority of people. if they want to or not the remote API knows exactly who they are.
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 707 2014-05-01 13:07:34 <arubi> from what I see on the infographic, payer and payee rely on a shared secret when making a transaction
 708 2014-05-01 13:08:17 <arubi> the dark wallet server should'nt really have to know who they are to provide services to them
 709 2014-05-01 13:09:04 <hearn> stealth addresses do elliptic curve diffie hellman between sender and receiver, effectively
 710 2014-05-01 13:09:12 <hearn> using the data in OP_RETURN
 711 2014-05-01 13:09:19 <arubi> yea, that's what I see
 712 2014-05-01 13:09:21 <survic> it can't help but know it. by requesting balances they naturally give up their addresses. I don't think they're operating with bloom filters or anything actually privacy conscious.
 713 2014-05-01 13:09:23 <hearn> it’s not about remaining private from the server
 714 2014-05-01 13:09:32 <hearn> survic: no they aren’t. they say they want to in future.
 715 2014-05-01 13:10:41 <arubi> it could possibly be that darkwallet server only provides a sane access to OP_RETURN data to be used by a darkwallet client
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 718 2014-05-01 13:11:33 <survic> arubi: you're missing the point. if the client requests balances for all of the source addresses, they can't help but work out the destinations as well.
 719 2014-05-01 13:11:51 <arubi> why would a client need to "ask" for balance?
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 723 2014-05-01 13:12:17 <arubi> how is me asking for a balance of an address, and you asking is different?
 724 2014-05-01 13:12:24 <arubi> i mean, for the same address
 725 2014-05-01 13:12:57 <survic> we have different IP addresses, different time zones when we might be opening the client.
 726 2014-05-01 13:13:46 <arubi> that's really a physical difference. there are ways to circumvent that
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 728 2014-05-01 13:14:26 <hearn> imo the future of “stealth addresses” is they go away in favour of an extension to BIP 70
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 730 2014-05-01 13:14:33 <hearn> but that may be long term
 731 2014-05-01 13:14:33 <arubi> I don't know how the darkwallet server works, it might as well have no privacy
 732 2014-05-01 13:14:42 <hearn> right. it’s basically like blockchain.info
 733 2014-05-01 13:14:46 <hearn> you get no privacy from the server ops
 734 2014-05-01 13:14:50 <hearn> so better hope you trust them!
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 739 2014-05-01 13:15:53 <survic> and whoever else has access to their server.
 740 2014-05-01 13:16:29 <arubi> I'm not sure how much use anyone would have for encrypted transactions without having any private keys
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 742 2014-05-01 13:17:15 <arubi> either that or i'm completely missing some flaw with darkwallet (except that it's currently centralized)
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 744 2014-05-01 13:18:06 <survic> given what it is there's almost no scope for it to become decentralized.
 745 2014-05-01 13:18:45 <hearn> over time i think wallets will all converge on the features where they currently compete
 746 2014-05-01 13:19:04 <hearn> the dark wallet guys decided to focus on privacy features at the cost of decentralisation features. other wallets have done the opposite. eventually they’ll all do both
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 748 2014-05-01 13:19:19 <hearn> decentralisation is a lot of work though. i’m not sure they realise how much.
 749 2014-05-01 13:20:27 <arubi> electrum does pretty well with it's "un"centralized approach to light clients
 750 2014-05-01 13:20:45 <arubi> that could happen with darkwallet, if the service actually works as advertised
 751 2014-05-01 13:22:01 <survic> electrum doesn't scale very well. eventually those that run electrum servers will give up.
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 753 2014-05-01 13:22:27 <wumpus> electrum was sort of a predecessor to bloom-filter based SPV clients
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 755 2014-05-01 13:22:47 <hearn> arubi: well it’s got a handful of servers vs 8500
 756 2014-05-01 13:22:48 * arubi has to read up on bloom-filters
 757 2014-05-01 13:23:07 <arubi> 8500 what? clients?
 758 2014-05-01 13:23:09 <hearn> i mean we worry about the falling number of nodes, rightfully so, but it’s still way better than a handful of people with no business model bleeding money
 759 2014-05-01 13:23:13 <hearn> p2p nodes
 760 2014-05-01 13:23:16 <hearn> SPV clients use the p2p nodes as their servers
 761 2014-05-01 13:23:18 <arubi> ah
 762 2014-05-01 13:24:09 <hearn> bloom filters are basically a garbled set of addresses/keys. the node that receives the filter can’t extract addresses directly, just test the filter against transactions. the filter can have false positives - the rate is chosen by the client
 763 2014-05-01 13:24:26 <hearn> so nodes can end up sending back useless tx data, but, the idea is, the node doesn’t know which transactions are real hits vs the fakes
 764 2014-05-01 13:24:45 <hearn> now in practice the only client that uses these is bitcoinj and we don’t garble the filters very much currently. volunteers wanted :)
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 767 2014-05-01 13:25:28 <arubi> sounds interesting! so genuine tx's get mixed with "noise" tx's?
 768 2014-05-01 13:25:30 <wumpus> bitc also uses bloom filters, although I doubt it garbles any better than bitcoinj
 769 2014-05-01 13:25:37 <hearn> ah yes. bitc
 770 2014-05-01 13:25:39 <hearn> arubi: right
 771 2014-05-01 13:25:52 <hearn> wumpus: well it might do. i mean we could make bitcoinj garble like crazy with a one line change.
 772 2014-05-01 13:26:09 <hearn> wumpus: but then we’d break the mobile experience. that’s why it’s not done yet. bitc probably does not care about moble phones
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 774 2014-05-01 13:27:13 <arubi> and how do other p2p nodes react to noise tx's?
 775 2014-05-01 13:27:17 <wumpus> hearn: hm yes, it might; but I mean seeing that the rest of the code is still a bit in the early stages, I don't know whether it has been given very deep thought
 776 2014-05-01 13:27:39 <hearn> arubi: p2p nodes don’t request bloom filtering, only lightweight clients.
 777 2014-05-01 13:27:48 <hearn> arubi: but those lightweight clients ignore them
 778 2014-05-01 13:27:55 <hearn> wumpus: indeed
 779 2014-05-01 13:28:03 <arubi> Oh I see, so it's up to the client to request that
 780 2014-05-01 13:28:09 <survic> arubi: the noise is just transactions the SPV client doesn't want. they can just be ignored. they're valid but not interesting.
 781 2014-05-01 13:28:22 <hearn> in future we will probably use them actually
 782 2014-05-01 13:28:28 <hearn> arubi: right
 783 2014-05-01 13:29:05 <arubi> cool, thanks
 784 2014-05-01 13:29:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|hearn: for what?
 785 2014-05-01 13:30:12 <hearn> estimating fees. for the first stage of floating fees i guess we’ll just poll p2p nodes and ask them what they think. that’s easy to implement and we need to do the damn launch :)
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 788 2014-05-01 13:30:38 <hearn> later on, we can keep FPs that are broadcast after we set up the connection, and then see how long they take to confirm
 789 2014-05-01 13:30:58 <hearn> we need some protocol extensions to make this scheme really work, but they’re fairly simple
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 814 2014-05-01 13:59:48 <maaku> sipa gmaxwell: I'm considering eliding balance summations from the utxo tree network serialization when they can be fully calculated from the data provided (no pruned branches)
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 816 2014-05-01 14:01:40 <maaku> this would save some space, but you'd have to process a whole proof before you can know the overall balance summation and/or verify the hash of an inner node (which covers the balance-sum)
 817 2014-05-01 14:01:52 <maaku> do you think this is a bad tradeoff?
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 871 2014-05-01 14:58:49 <r0sc0e> whats the correct command for allowing more than 8 connections at the current bitcoinqt client
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 874 2014-05-01 14:59:37 <helo> it does by default, but upnp must be enabled if you're behind a firewall/router
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 877 2014-05-01 15:00:35 <arubi> r0sc0e, try running with '-upnp=1' flag
 878 2014-05-01 15:00:59 <helo> (your router must support it as well)
 879 2014-05-01 15:01:06 <Joric> soo what's very new and exciting in the bitcoin world now
 880 2014-05-01 15:01:09 <arubi> true
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 975 2014-05-01 16:44:34 <tyrick> What is the benefit of using signals2 for the nodeSignals?
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1045 2014-05-01 17:55:50 <helo> yes that is true
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1052 2014-05-01 17:59:56 <tyrick> oh?
1053 2014-05-01 18:00:04 <tyrick> the benefit of using signals2 for the nodeSignals?
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1057 2014-05-01 18:05:33 <hearn> saivann__: the new video is cool
1058 2014-05-01 18:05:47 <hearn> somehow even though it’s the same voiceover guy, he sounds a little less enthusiastic. not sure …. might just be in my mind
1059 2014-05-01 18:07:21 <saivann__> hearn: Funny that you'are saying that, I had the same impression. But the content is better regardless I think :)
1060 2014-05-01 18:09:47 <hearn> perhaps he is not a bitcoin fan :)
1061 2014-05-01 18:10:12 <hearn> i guess someone paid for it now, but i wonder if stephanie murphy would be willing to do a voiceover too. she is a pro voiceover artist and also big bitcoiner
1062 2014-05-01 18:10:25 <hearn> anyway yes content is definitely better. it’s a really nice refresh
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1070 2014-05-01 18:18:00 <saivann__> hearn: Sounded to me like he was just tired the wrong day. Anyway, I just helped the weusecoins guys a little bit with the script, they did mostly all the good work.
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1074 2014-05-01 18:18:32 <hearn> yeah that could also be
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1077 2014-05-01 18:19:14 <hearn> i should ask stefan if we have the soundtrack independent of the voiceover still. maybe if stephanie is at the conference i can grab her and ask her to try it out
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1130 2014-05-01 19:24:50 <rccola> what are the pros/cons of using Redis to store the blockchain for faster lookups in a Rails/Heroku app?
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1133 2014-05-01 19:26:53 <tyrick> faster lookups sounds like a pro
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1135 2014-05-01 19:29:57 <freewil> i dont think redis would be a good storage solution for the blockchain since it stores all the data in memory
1136 2014-05-01 19:31:14 <rccola> why's that? expensive in $$$ terms?
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1144 2014-05-01 19:40:40 <Ry4an> redis's win isn't really speed -- it's flexibility.  set-operations, multi-key commands, filering, etc. are what make developing in redis and some query workloads fast
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1148 2014-05-01 19:41:38 <Ry4an> but if you're just doing key/value lookup you'd be much faster w/ an embedded key-value store that ruby talks to via a C extension rather than over a network (as it does with redis)
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1150 2014-05-01 19:44:05 <rccola> Interesting.  Thanks Ry4an.  What do you think the best way to do balance checking/creating transactions through a Rails app?  Just have it make service calls to a server running bitcoind?
1151 2014-05-01 19:44:32 <Ry4an> almost certainly.  It won't be faster, but it'll be correct and that's more important.
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1157 2014-05-01 19:46:30 <rccola> gracias
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1167 2014-05-01 20:07:55 <maaku> but don't actually have any private keys in that bitcoind instance
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1205 2014-05-01 20:42:17 <skinnkavaj> When is this going to be added?
1206 2014-05-01 20:42:18 <skinnkavaj> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Sweepprivkey_proposal
1207 2014-05-01 20:42:29 <skinnkavaj> And why is it not already?
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1210 2014-05-01 20:43:05 <wumpus> skinnkavaj: never, if no one adds it...
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1212 2014-05-01 20:46:21 <wumpus> proposals are one thing, but to merge it we'd really need an implementation
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1217 2014-05-01 20:53:47 <gmaxwell> I've never seen that.
1218 2014-05-01 20:54:16 <Luke-Jr> me either..
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1220 2014-05-01 20:54:19 <gmaxwell> Mike Caldwell made a bunch of things like that that he never got public attention to; some of it because he kept sending mail to bitcoin development without subscribing.
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1225 2014-05-01 20:56:05 <gmaxwell> That should probably have an exponentially distributed delay so if multiple wallets are running they don't all create transactions at once. (and also to give it a bit of time to batch multiple payments)
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1229 2014-05-01 20:57:59 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: why would you sweep the same privkey to multiple wallets?
1230 2014-05-01 20:58:52 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you have the same sweep loaded into multiple wallets because you're a user and users eat suppositories when given a chance.
1231 2014-05-01 20:59:30 <tyrick> I want a suppository
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1246 2014-05-01 21:05:55 * Luke-Jr sanitises the page.
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1251 2014-05-01 21:09:21 <coinmaster> anyone here know how to generate a merkel root hash for a new coin?
1252 2014-05-01 21:09:31 <coinmaster> or if anyone knows what channel is more suited for this queston
1253 2014-05-01 21:10:50 <justanotheruser> coinmaster: the wiki for merkle root has a picture that pretty much explains it
1254 2014-05-01 21:11:26 <ndak> hi how do i autostart bitcoind (reboot) in linux?
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1257 2014-05-01 21:12:27 <tyrick> for a new block?
1258 2014-05-01 21:12:31 <tyrick> are blocks called coins?
1259 2014-05-01 21:12:39 <coinmaster> justanotheruser: could you point me to the page? and tyrick, no for a fork
1260 2014-05-01 21:12:49 <coinmaster> the genesis block rather
1261 2014-05-01 21:12:56 <tyrick> ah
1262 2014-05-01 21:12:57 <coinmaster> sorry should have specified that
1263 2014-05-01 21:13:35 <justanotheruser> coinmaster: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkle_tree
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1266 2014-05-01 21:14:16 <coinmaster> yeah im learning as i go along, im stuck on generating the genesis block. I've got my epoch time, timestamp and genesis markel hash i'm trying to assert but after that it fails
1267 2014-05-01 21:15:01 <justanotheruser> coinmaster: that's off topic, but you can look at the bitcoind source, it includes the defined genesis block
1268 2014-05-01 21:15:10 <coinmaster> alright thanks
1269 2014-05-01 21:15:19 <coinmaster> is there a channel more suited for this?
1270 2014-05-01 21:16:06 <justanotheruser> Never been to either of these, but #altcoin or #cryptocurrency may exist
1271 2014-05-01 21:16:33 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: #altcoin is run by the Altcoin scamcoin
1272 2014-05-01 21:16:49 pierreatwork has joined
1273 2014-05-01 21:16:52 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: like an altcoin named altcoin?
1274 2014-05-01 21:17:00 <justanotheruser> Weird
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1276 2014-05-01 21:17:38 <tyrick> Is this an altcoin question?
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1278 2014-05-01 21:18:09 <coinmaster> yes because im making a fork
1279 2014-05-01 21:18:11 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: right
1280 2014-05-01 21:18:21 <coinmaster> im wondering if there is a development channel for forks
1281 2014-05-01 21:18:23 <coinmaster> i guess
1282 2014-05-01 21:18:27 <Luke-Jr> coinmaster: #scams maybe
1283 2014-05-01 21:18:36 <coinmaster> hue
1284 2014-05-01 21:18:57 <coinmaster> i dont see how creating a fork for fun is a scam
1285 2014-05-01 21:19:01 <coinmaster> i'm doing it to learn lol
1286 2014-05-01 21:19:08 <tyrick> if you fork it, you will die
1287 2014-05-01 21:19:10 <coinmaster> but apparently thats not allowed by Luke-Jr
1288 2014-05-01 21:19:20 <Luke-Jr> coinmaster: because scammers will use it as a scam
1289 2014-05-01 21:19:31 <sipa> if you do it to learn, no need to do it publically
1290 2014-05-01 21:19:35 <Luke-Jr> ^
1291 2014-05-01 21:19:37 <coinmaster> yeah but i'm seeking help
1292 2014-05-01 21:19:41 <coinmaster> not advertising it
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1294 2014-05-01 21:19:52 <sipa> i will gladly explain how things in bitcoin work here
1295 2014-05-01 21:19:53 <Luke-Jr> coinmaster: there are channels for experimenting in *bitcoin* testnets and the like
1296 2014-05-01 21:20:04 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1297 2014-05-01 21:20:10 <tyrick> sipa, I have a question in that case
1298 2014-05-01 21:20:13 Milanito has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1299 2014-05-01 21:20:18 <sipa> shoot
1300 2014-05-01 21:20:57 <justanotheruser> If a coredevs wife wrote "I love you" in a script hash and added it to the blockchain, would the coredev be upset?
1301 2014-05-01 21:21:06 agricocb has joined
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1303 2014-05-01 21:22:00 <Ry4an> likely.  They understand precedent perfectly well.
1304 2014-05-01 21:22:15 <tyrick> Thanks, let me dig through some of my notes
1305 2014-05-01 21:23:02 <sipa> justanotheruser: glad i'm not married :p
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1307 2014-05-01 21:23:24 <tyrick> AptInit() in bitcoind.cpp;  a thread called detectShutdownThread is created within threadGroup
1308 2014-05-01 21:23:27 <maaku> justanotheruser: who was the transaction sent to ;)
1309 2014-05-01 21:23:40 <justanotheruser> maaku: the coredev
1310 2014-05-01 21:24:18 <hearn> justanotheruser: i’d be upset!
1311 2014-05-01 21:24:20 <tyrick> Then threadGroup is passed to AppInit2, and various threads are added via create_thread()
1312 2014-05-01 21:24:34 <hearn> because i’d discover i had a wife i didn’t know about!
1313 2014-05-01 21:24:35 <sipa> tyrick: it's the main thread group
1314 2014-05-01 21:24:47 <justanotheruser> hearn: are you a coredev?
1315 2014-05-01 21:24:48 <hearn> although it’d be nice to know she loved me anyway :)
1316 2014-05-01 21:24:53 <tyrick> sure, but why two different ways to create threads?
1317 2014-05-01 21:24:59 <hearn> dunno. find another core dev and ask them :)
1318 2014-05-01 21:25:02 <ndak> hi i am stuck in my openvpnserver install with ERROR: Linux route add command failed: external program exited with error status: 7.. if you know how to fix it please msg me. i gonna pay you /msg me
1319 2014-05-01 21:25:08 <justanotheruser> What is your github?
1320 2014-05-01 21:25:16 <sipa> ndak: 3rd time i ask you: not here
1321 2014-05-01 21:25:41 <justanotheruser> Please ban, he posted on #bitcoin too
1322 2014-05-01 21:25:45 <gmaxwell> weird chanserv delay.
1323 2014-05-01 21:25:49 <tyrick> why not use new boost::thread() everytime?
1324 2014-05-01 21:25:51 <ndak> sipa: ok i am sorry
1325 2014-05-01 21:25:53 <hearn> justanotheruser: mikehearn. but i don’t write much code for bitcoin core. i’ve done some protocol design work. mostly i write bitcoinj
1326 2014-05-01 21:25:56 <ndak> amessage
1327 2014-05-01 21:26:03 <tyrick> this way a variable for each thread can be assigned?
1328 2014-05-01 21:26:17 <sipa> tyrick: historical reasons, most likely
1329 2014-05-01 21:26:31 <justanotheruser> hearn: I see. That's cool
1330 2014-05-01 21:26:50 <justanotheruser> I am still trying to understand all of bitcoin source code
1331 2014-05-01 21:27:21 <justanotheruser> *bitcoinds
1332 2014-05-01 21:27:34 <tyrick> okay, you guys have really come a long way in organizing this project
1333 2014-05-01 21:27:54 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1335 2014-05-01 21:28:08 <tyrick> I am comparing the today's code with litecoin (since I assume it represents an earlier fork) and it is much more organized
1336 2014-05-01 21:28:31 <sipa> i thought litecoin kept up pretty well
1337 2014-05-01 21:29:18 <justanotheruser> tyrick: compare it to ixcoin
1338 2014-05-01 21:29:29 <tyrick> It's possible, but I easily get lost when try to navigate through it
1339 2014-05-01 21:29:30 <justanotheruser> IIRC, it is the first fork
1340 2014-05-01 21:29:42 <tyrick> trying*
1341 2014-05-01 21:30:04 postpre is now known as prepost
1342 2014-05-01 21:30:11 <sipa> or namecoin :)
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1345 2014-05-01 21:31:56 <tyrick> Another question
1346 2014-05-01 21:32:18 <tyrick> I haven't started getting into how data is stored in the .bitcoin folder
1347 2014-05-01 21:32:36 <tyrick> If I attempt to cat a block file, nothing but craziness comes out
1348 2014-05-01 21:32:42 spinza_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1349 2014-05-01 21:32:47 <sipa> the block files just contain blocks
1350 2014-05-01 21:32:54 <sipa> in network serialized format
1351 2014-05-01 21:33:04 <sipa> one after the other
1352 2014-05-01 21:33:21 <tyrick> ok, so they are just the block objects serialized?
1353 2014-05-01 21:33:25 <sipa> yes
1354 2014-05-01 21:33:26 <tyrick> that makes sense
1355 2014-05-01 21:33:36 <sipa> with 8 byte prefixes
1356 2014-05-01 21:33:59 <sipa> 4 bytes network magic + 4 bytes length descriptor of the following block
1357 2014-05-01 21:34:17 <tyrick> I guess all of this is in serialize.h
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1361 2014-05-01 21:34:42 <sipa> serialize.h is the generic serialization framework + serializers for common data types
1362 2014-05-01 21:35:04 <sipa> core.h contains the data definitions for blocks/transactions/..., and their serializations
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1364 2014-05-01 21:36:01 <tyrick> Oh wow. I've never looked in that file
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1366 2014-05-01 21:36:22 <tyrick> lots of goodies
1367 2014-05-01 21:37:06 <tyrick> okay, this is more of a C++ question: What is this syntax
1368 2014-05-01 21:37:21 <tyrick> CBlockHeader GetBlockHeader() const { ... }
1369 2014-05-01 21:38:05 <tyrick> I am a Java guy, but 2 C programmers around me are baffled at it as well
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1371 2014-05-01 21:38:22 <sipa> it defines a method named GetBlockHeader, which takes no arguments and returns a CBlockHeader
1372 2014-05-01 21:38:34 <sipa> and does not modify the objext it is called on
1373 2014-05-01 21:38:38 <tyrick> and the const coming after the function name?
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1377 2014-05-01 21:38:51 <sipa> it means it can be called on a const object
1378 2014-05-01 21:39:05 <sipa> as it does not modify the object
1379 2014-05-01 21:40:36 <tyrick> so CBlock would need to be a const object for that function to be called?
1380 2014-05-01 21:41:29 <sipa> yes
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1382 2014-05-01 21:42:02 <sipa> it's often the case that you pass around a pointer to a block, but don't want it to be modified by the callee
1383 2014-05-01 21:42:19 <tyrick> even though the function clearly doesn't modify the original object, I guess const is added as a precaution?
1384 2014-05-01 21:42:25 <sipa> so then it can take a const CBlock* argument
1385 2014-05-01 21:43:00 <sipa> no, without that const modifier, you *cannot* call the method if the CBlock is const
1386 2014-05-01 21:43:05 <tyrick> Makes sense, but in this function's case, a new CBlockHeader is being returned
1387 2014-05-01 21:43:28 <tyrick> ohhh
1388 2014-05-01 21:43:29 <tyrick> I see
1389 2014-05-01 21:43:37 <sipa> yes, so it does not modify the CBlock, so it makes sense to be able to call it on a const CBlock, so it has to be a const method
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1399 2014-05-01 21:46:26 <maaku> tyrick: object references and pointers are automatically converted to be const if needed, so you can freely call a const method from a non-const reference
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1402 2014-05-01 21:47:16 <tyrick> sry, got d/c
1403 2014-05-01 21:47:20 <tyrick> was that a yes?
1404 2014-05-01 21:47:46 <maaku> tyrick: what was the question?
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1407 2014-05-01 21:48:50 <tyrick> Is it the case that SetNull *CANNOT* be called on a const CBlock
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1409 2014-05-01 21:49:43 <maaku> correct
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1411 2014-05-01 21:49:59 <maaku> on a const CBlock you can only call methods that are marked "const"
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1416 2014-05-01 21:50:18 <tyrick> sweet; I just leveled up my C++ skills
1417 2014-05-01 21:50:18 koolhaas has joined
1418 2014-05-01 21:50:22 <tyrick> Thanks
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1445 2014-05-01 22:19:21 <dokan> i want to buy something like this: www.bitrun.net .. if you have anything /msg me
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1471 2014-05-01 22:41:05 <Tiestoale> Hi All
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1516 2014-05-01 23:27:33 <lechuga_> some1 told me recently there was a protocol change to allow relay of partially signed txns
1517 2014-05-01 23:27:38 <lechuga_> is that actually true?
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1521 2014-05-01 23:32:21 <justanotheruser> lechuga_: if they're valid?
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