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  19 2014-05-04 00:36:31 <amiller-> what are the nodes with empty version strings?
  20 2014-05-04 00:36:39 <amiller-> that don't relay anything?
  21 2014-05-04 00:36:53 <amiller-> is that a well known thing
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  27 2014-05-04 00:39:27 <gmaxwell> amiller-: I wasn't aware of them. Do they make outbound connections?
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  29 2014-05-04 00:39:59 <amiller-> i'm not sure
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  32 2014-05-04 00:47:30 <amiller-> nvm i'm doing something wrong
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  35 2014-05-04 00:48:05 <t3ssa> any debian users here?
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  46 2014-05-04 01:04:54 <amiller-> meh, 193.14.106.80 is one
  47 2014-05-04 01:05:08 <amiller-> version number = 32300 hrm
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  51 2014-05-04 01:06:17 <amiller-> it shows up as unreachable in getaddr.bitnodes.io which i guess makes sense because of the old version number
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  53 2014-05-04 01:12:42 <amiller-> there aren't very many of them, so never mind
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  90 2014-05-04 02:12:03 <dexX7> gmaxwell, sipa: problem of too many open files fixed by deleting the leveldb iterator after usage in ReadAddrIndex :)
  91 2014-05-04 02:13:44 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  92 2014-05-04 02:14:01 <maaku> dexX7: pull request please :)
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  94 2014-05-04 02:15:09 <dexX7> this is related to the addr indexed branch
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 101 2014-05-04 02:26:37 <jcorgan> dexX7: are you using #3652?
 102 2014-05-04 02:27:31 ConvivialMatt has joined
 103 2014-05-04 02:27:56 <jcorgan> if so, send me a pull request, i'll take care of it and update the PR.  I need to do work on the branch anyway, a very recent update on master in txdb.cpp breaks it so i'll be digging around and rebasing anyway.
 104 2014-05-04 02:28:39 FastOb has joined
 105 2014-05-04 02:28:41 <FastOb> Bitcoin going to fall hard today to around 350$ or less look at CoinDesk signals app wtf is going...  http://bit.ly/1hnHeso
 106 2014-05-04 02:30:51 <gmaxwell> (and probably a malware link)
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 200 2014-05-04 04:38:06 <amiller-> uh, how do i compile my node to never prune
 201 2014-05-04 04:38:10 <amiller-> so that getrawtransaction always works
 202 2014-05-04 04:39:31 <Luke-Jr> amiller-: txindex=1 bitcoin.conf
 203 2014-05-04 04:39:46 <amiller-> i see
 204 2014-05-04 04:39:49 <amiller-> thanks
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 242 2014-05-04 06:06:53 <sipa> amiller-: the utxo set is always a utxo set and not an index (it is just a copy of all unspent outputs, it never has full transactions, and it doesn't know where on disk to find a transaction)
 243 2014-05-04 06:07:10 <amiller-> oh.
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 245 2014-05-04 06:07:40 <sipa> amiller-: txindex=1 just adds an additional transaction index to the block chain database (not to the utxo set)
 246 2014-05-04 06:08:02 <amiller-> got it
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 250 2014-05-04 06:15:45 <jgarzik> amiller-, if you are running queries, http://insight.is/ might be useful to you
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 252 2014-05-04 06:16:07 <jgarzik> amiller-, but yes, at the end of the day, txindex=1 makes getrawtransaction work for all transactions, spent or not
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 257 2014-05-04 06:23:08 <wumpus> sipa: it would be possible to compile a module without stack checking, if performance is really important, AFAIK it's not possible to disable it for single functions
 258 2014-05-04 06:31:29 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it should be using pragma push_options, though I've never tried.
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 260 2014-05-04 06:32:28 <wumpus> gmaxwell: okay
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 271 2014-05-04 06:39:53 <wumpus> gmaxwell: btw about non-contiguous ip ranges, we could map the ips to a space-filling curve in 2D or 3D then do range queries :p
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 274 2014-05-04 06:43:05 <wumpus> something like https://xkcd.com/195/
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 283 2014-05-04 06:56:59 <gmaxwell> wumpus: hah, well it was a dump question the calling code already takes multiple options.
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 288 2014-05-04 07:04:29 <gmaxwell> wumpus: you might have missed it earlier: 14:48 < gmaxwell> wumpus: sorry about the misclick on 4102 (I accidentally closed it, I instantly reopened it... I started to ask a question then went and read the  code and realized the question was stupid and clicked the wrong button to cancel)
 289 2014-05-04 07:07:01 <wumpus> gmaxwell: ah, yes I missed that
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 292 2014-05-04 07:11:41 <gmaxwell> (interestingly, if you type a comment and hit close instead of submit it both submits and closes)
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 296 2014-05-04 07:17:18 <wumpus> I've noticed, it's quite easy to accidentally close an issue
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 307 2014-05-04 07:39:49 <sipa> wumpus: not worth it probably, but if we do need that at some point, it's useful that all the crypto code ends up in a separate subdir too
 308 2014-05-04 07:40:07 <wumpus> sipa: yep!
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 314 2014-05-04 07:52:11 <HaltingState> wumpus, dont worry about stack checking
 315 2014-05-04 07:52:15 <HaltingState> 10% performance is not big deal
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 319 2014-05-04 07:59:46 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: if it really were 10% performance, you're talking about adding say 20 minutes to a sync. That would be a big deal. But fortunately its not 10% there.
 320 2014-05-04 08:00:02 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, less?
 321 2014-05-04 08:00:26 <HaltingState> signature checks and other things can probably be threaded
 322 2014-05-04 08:00:52 <wumpus> HaltingState: I'm not worrying about it; it's just that having the stack smashing protection throw a spanner into the works of a tighly, manually optimized inner loop would be a pity
 323 2014-05-04 08:02:23 <wumpus> although in that case the inner function should probably be force-inlined instead, that would also avoid stack-smashing detection (I'd hope...)
 324 2014-05-04 08:02:25 <HaltingState> i would enable all security flags and stack smashing protection and non-write to executable pages and just have that as baseline and default'
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 326 2014-05-04 08:02:36 <wumpus> HaltingState: that's already the case
 327 2014-05-04 08:02:49 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: they already were threaded a long time ago, and it's already the case that the hardening stuff is all enable.d
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 332 2014-05-04 08:03:09 <HaltingState> that is what i would do and what seems most sensible; the risk of a buffer overflow attack or other attack is greater than performance issue
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 334 2014-05-04 08:04:02 <gmaxwell> The only thing being addressed here is that some assembly code was replaced in a library with straight C which is slightly slower, and sipa mentioned that since it has an additional function call there may be a new stack check. There is no risk of buffer overflow in the sha256 compression function. There are no dynamic indexes in it at all.
 335 2014-05-04 08:04:10 <wumpus> but in inner crypto code working with fixed buffers there is very little worry about a buffer overflow
 336 2014-05-04 08:04:22 <wumpus> right
 337 2014-05-04 08:04:29 <gmaxwell> (which might even cause the compiler to not emit the stack checking there at all, if its sufficiently smart)
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 339 2014-05-04 08:04:46 <wumpus> 'sufficiently smart' compilers, hah
 340 2014-05-04 08:06:07 <gmaxwell> hey, they're often quite smart! (at finding ways to make things fail in surprising ways…)
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 342 2014-05-04 08:07:16 <wumpus> they're incredibly smart these days, compiler code is some of the craziest code I've seen
 343 2014-05-04 08:08:01 <aburan28> random question but if one were to acquire a large block of ipv6 addresses could they potentially perform a sybil attack?
 344 2014-05-04 08:08:46 <gmaxwell> aburan28: Bitcoin does not trust its peers, generally doing things like that are only DOS attacks.
 345 2014-05-04 08:09:32 <gmaxwell> wumpus: wrt your comment on the memory usage issue: the huge memory spikes were worked around by sipa's change to limit orphan blocks. Most of the spiking was storing orphan blocks in memory.
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 347 2014-05-04 08:09:39 <wumpus> aburan28: the network code does some grouping of addresses by subnet ranges to avoid that, though indeed at most it could result in a DoS attack
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 349 2014-05-04 08:11:07 <gmaxwell> well, not quite at most. since if you really have a huge number of nodes relative to the honest network you could potentially partition new nodes, and if you managed to get a large miner in your partitioning network you could have some fun beyond dos attacks.
 350 2014-05-04 08:11:31 <gmaxwell> But Bitcoin is not trivally insecure to sybil attacks like most p2p systems are.
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 352 2014-05-04 08:12:42 <wumpus> gmaxwell: right, it looks like limiting the orphans (as well as the earlier changes in leveldb to not mmap everything) indeed helped
 353 2014-05-04 08:15:33 <wumpus> partitioning the network is possible, although it only takes one non-coorporating node to 'bridge' the partition
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 359 2014-05-04 08:19:58 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yea, its the sort of thing where if you somehow manage to have an apparent 500,000 nodes to the honest network's 10,000 reachable nodes, then— with those figures— there is a 85% chance ((500k/510k)^8) a new peer with that view of the network will pick all 8 nodes as from the attacker. This is usually just a dos attack and kinda boring.
 360 2014-05-04 08:20:30 <gmaxwell> But if the attacker nabbed a new big miner it would be somewhat interesting... though large miners tend to also have manually configured peering
 361 2014-05-04 08:20:44 <gmaxwell> (thus making any such attack completely impossible against them)
 362 2014-05-04 08:21:24 <gmaxwell> also, as wumpus noted earlier the peer selection avoids picking multiple hosts from the same netgroup (/32 for IPv6 IIRC). So just a single block doesn't help you.
 363 2014-05-04 08:21:30 ItSAN____ has joined
 364 2014-05-04 08:22:04 <gmaxwell> (e.g. you need to have at least 8 blocks, and then split your zillion fake hosts across them)
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 367 2014-05-04 08:22:58 <gmaxwell> and then you end up with much lower odds for a given number of fake hosts.
 368 2014-05-04 08:24:19 <gmaxwell> If we someday add authenticated peers and addr messages in coinbases partitioning will become even harder, not to mention Jgarzik's bitcoinsat project.
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 374 2014-05-04 08:33:33 <sipa> gmaxwell, jgarzik: will the sattelite relay full blocks?
 375 2014-05-04 08:35:50 <aburan28> another question i have is whether or not there are any plans to try and change the p2p network in a way to try and obfuscate the ip address of initial node that broadcasts a tx
 376 2014-05-04 08:36:26 <gmaxwell> aburan28: uh? Why do you believe it isn't already?
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 378 2014-05-04 08:37:45 <aburan28> because if someone were to place nodes at certain vantage points in the network they could observe propagation patterns
 379 2014-05-04 08:37:55 <sipa> only your direct peers can reasonably guess that you are the original author
 380 2014-05-04 08:38:04 <sipa> if you don't want even that, use tor
 381 2014-05-04 08:39:04 <aburan28> even with tor its not a guarantee because there are only a few thousand ip addresses running the tor network
 382 2014-05-04 08:40:23 <sipa> yup
 383 2014-05-04 08:40:45 <sipa> you can always sign the transaction offline, and broadcast it from elseahere
 384 2014-05-04 08:41:04 <sipa> there are probably a dozen interfaces/websites where you can paste a transaction
 385 2014-05-04 08:42:11 <gmaxwell> aburan28: okay, sometimes people showing up thinking transactions contain IP addresses and I couldn't tell if thats what you were thinking from what you initially said. :)
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 406 2014-05-04 09:15:23 <wumpus> aburan28: at least with tor your traffic gets mixed with non-bitcoin traffic
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 409 2014-05-04 09:21:17 <wumpus> and the tor entry node doesn't know what you're connecting to or what you're sending, so it makes timing correlation difficult (not impossible, but that's inherent in a low-latency anonymity network)
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 412 2014-05-04 09:26:23 <wumpus> ie, an observer watching the entire internet may see you submitting a bitcoin-transaction-sized packet to TOR just before it appears on the P2P network
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 424 2014-05-04 09:34:00 <wumpus> a high-latency onion/mix network would be more suited than tor, but, it would have to have other uses than bitcoin, otherwise there is nothing to 'hide in'
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 429 2014-05-04 09:37:21 <wumpus> anyway, people can get creative with submitting, forwarding, grouping, ungrouping, dead-dropping and picking up transactions in all kinds of ways like any other data, there is no reason to 'plan any changes to the p2p network'
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 432 2014-05-04 09:39:44 <survic> wumpus: that could be extended in a way, not having some forms of transactions relayed in standard ways. a "shell" message around a normal transaction that instructs the peer to wait, or send some junk data back as a fake response, that sort of thing. stripped off at that hop it wouldn't have any effect on the rest of the network. not sure how well that would work, and even if it's desirable though.
 433 2014-05-04 09:40:18 <wumpus> survic: there's just no motivation to make it part of the bitcoin P2P network... it's *better* to hide among other data and messages
 434 2014-05-04 09:42:46 penny has joined
 435 2014-05-04 09:43:04 <wumpus> I'm not very much at home in the matter, or whether any high-latency mixing networks are in common use
 436 2014-05-04 09:43:26 <penny> anyone seen the testnet blockchain, it's getting loads of confirmations, haven't seen that kind of thing before
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 438 2014-05-04 09:44:10 <survic> I seem to remember there was a Usenet one that pretty much failed entirely because people used extremely bad crypto. passwords instead of gpg keys, weak gpg keys, almost all of it was broken in some way.
 439 2014-05-04 09:44:19 [7] has joined
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 441 2014-05-04 09:45:30 <wumpus> if one exists, it'd only need a forwarder to the bitcoin network
 442 2014-05-04 09:45:33 <wumpus> survic: hah
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 445 2014-05-04 09:46:47 <survic> wumpus: it was alt.anonymous. the interesting crypto stuff comes around page 20 and onwards. http://ritter.vg/p/AAM-defcon13.pdf
 446 2014-05-04 09:47:43 <wumpus> anyhow, for those that don't pick fights against omnipotent adversaries, tor works well enough for actual usable transaction privacy
 447 2014-05-04 09:49:04 <survic> I don't plan to pick any fights with any adversaries, but it's an interesting problem to think about.
 448 2014-05-04 09:49:15 <survic> and those defcon slides are extremely interesting.
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 458 2014-05-04 10:15:01 <shesek> did someone just point an ASIC at testnet?
 459 2014-05-04 10:15:41 <shesek> 13:12:50 2014-05-04 [INF] BMGR: Processed 12 blocks in the last 10.34s
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 461 2014-05-04 10:16:13 <penny> I was wondering about that on testnet
 462 2014-05-04 10:16:26 <penny> seems to have stopped now
 463 2014-05-04 10:16:58 <penny> seems to be identical 25BTC transactions as well
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 465 2014-05-04 10:17:36 <shesek> seems like almost all of them are blocks with nothing but the block reward
 466 2014-05-04 10:17:40 <shesek> and I'm still seeing those here
 467 2014-05-04 10:19:53 <shesek> I'm also getting some forks, probably someone running some experiment?
 468 2014-05-04 10:20:19 <penny> oh yeah true.. I'm still getting them although the block explorer seems to have stopped
 469 2014-05-04 10:20:30 <penny> annoying I'm trying to test something and it's going nuts
 470 2014-05-04 10:20:53 <penny> maybe someone wants a lot of testnet coins
 471 2014-05-04 10:20:59 <shesek> its quite okay for me, my transactions are getting confirmed faster :P
 472 2014-05-04 10:21:12 <shesek> and I get a chance to test my code for handling reorgs
 473 2014-05-04 10:21:41 <penny> haha true
 474 2014-05-04 10:21:43 <shesek> though those blocks are sent so fast that the forks don't really cause a reorg
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 478 2014-05-04 10:22:59 <shesek> the annoying part is that after the difficulty adjustment we'll be stuck with blocks 20 minutes apart
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 481 2014-05-04 10:26:47 <wumpus> penny: testnet is usually a very wild and unpredictable environment (whichi is good for testing) but if you want reliable testing, use a local regtest network
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 483 2014-05-04 10:28:52 <shesek> looks like someone is definitely testing out forking the network
 484 2014-05-04 10:29:17 <shesek> they're causing a fork every 10-30 blocks (which is roughly ever 10-30 seconds)
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 501 2014-05-04 10:43:33 <penny> wumpus: thanks for the info
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 542 2014-05-04 11:34:47 <timmit> I am running bitcoind (full) on my vserver. its running and has downloaded the complete blockchain, also says it has ~10 connections. however getaddr.bitnodes.io claims its not reachable. is there any other way to test my node?
 543 2014-05-04 11:36:02 <survic> timmit: having more than 10 connections means you're accepting at least 2 incoming peers, I assume your listening port is fine in that case. would you like me to connect back to you just to be sure?
 544 2014-05-04 11:36:27 <survic> (the client only makes a maximum of 8 outgoing connections by itself, this isn't an option that can be changed)
 545 2014-05-04 11:36:40 <timmit> 178.254.9.135:8333
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 547 2014-05-04 11:37:39 <survic> timmit: yes, I can see that port is listening.
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 549 2014-05-04 11:38:30 <survic> you'll gain more incoming peers over time as your address is distributed to more peers in need of connections.
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 552 2014-05-04 11:39:43 <timmit> ok but why does bitnodes.io claim its not reachable?
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 556 2014-05-04 11:43:06 <survic> timmit: bug on their end? who knows. it's not an authoritative source of information at any rate.
 557 2014-05-04 11:43:20 <timmit> ok
 558 2014-05-04 11:43:39 <survic> I can connect and handshake, so it's a false negative.
 559 2014-05-04 11:44:06 <timmit> can i see somehow that its doing actual work?
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 561 2014-05-04 11:44:45 <timmit> getinfo gives me the same output all the time
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 564 2014-05-04 11:45:01 <survic> work?
 565 2014-05-04 11:45:10 <survic> what do you expect it to be doing?
 566 2014-05-04 11:46:15 <timmit> uhm stuff that a full node should be ding. isnt it supposed to check signatures in the blockchain?
 567 2014-05-04 11:46:27 <timmit> validating transactions?
 568 2014-05-04 11:46:41 <timmit> or am i misled here?
 569 2014-05-04 11:47:46 <survic> no, it'll be doing that all behind the scenes. you won't see any output of this.
 570 2014-05-04 11:48:55 <survic> you'll be validating blocks, relaying them, all the good stuff. your incoming connections are good.
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 639 2014-05-04 13:24:06 <jgarzik> sipa, gmaxwell:  Yes, my BitSat project will receive full blocks from authenticated, hardened ground stations, and broadcast worldwide for free.  You always get the latest block(s) from the sat.
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 643 2014-05-04 13:45:10 <skinnkavaj> Testnet block explorer?
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 695 2014-05-04 15:04:24 <tyrick> When you connect to one of the DNS seeds in chainparams.cpp, is your ip added to the lest of known nodes?
 696 2014-05-04 15:04:33 <tyrick> list*
 697 2014-05-04 15:05:17 <jgarzik> tyrick, no
 698 2014-05-04 15:06:30 <tyrick> jgarzik, hm, so how would the network learn about my node?
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 700 2014-05-04 15:08:25 <jgarzik> sipa, gmaxwell: the specific BitSat algorithm endlessly transmits a buffer.  The buffer contains N latest blocks (and transactions too, if budget/tech permits, which is unlikely).  Buffer is transmitted in chrono order, with most recent block first, as you would expect.
 701 2014-05-04 15:09:02 bbrian has joined
 702 2014-05-04 15:09:25 <jgarzik> I am open to other algorithm suggestions, though.  The hardware is basically a buffer.  Uplink sends data.  Cubesat authenticates data via public key auth, then adds to buffer.  gmaxwell has suggested performing header verification on sat, which seems possible.
 703 2014-05-04 15:10:29 <jgarzik> The transmitter transmits the parts of the buffer software tells it to transmit.  (current algo for broadcast-to-earth just described)
 704 2014-05-04 15:11:28 <jgarzik> So you have RAM sufficient for software + several 1MB blocks buffers, and a sub-1Ghz RISC processor (let's say 400 Mhz)
 705 2014-05-04 15:12:26 <jgarzik> still trying to nail down uplink and downlink speeds -- that's one of the deliverables of the current design contract with builder Deep Space Industries
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 707 2014-05-04 15:13:01 <tyrick> Excuse my interrupt, but is the sat really happening?
 708 2014-05-04 15:13:03 <jgarzik> Picking a frequency/radio impacts the entire system design, from cubesat hardware & power to uplink/downlink costs and complexity
 709 2014-05-04 15:13:09 <jgarzik> tyrick, yes
 710 2014-05-04 15:13:47 <jgarzik> tyrick, RE "how would the network learn about my node?" <<---  to use bittorrent language, peer exchange.  the DNS seeds independently crawl the network.
 711 2014-05-04 15:14:21 <jgarzik> tyrick, your bitcoin node's address will be shared among peers, and eventually discovered by a DNS seed, if the bitcoin node is up long enough
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 716 2014-05-04 15:21:53 <tyrick> jgarzik, is the software going to be open source as well?  Shoot me as much info on this as your can.  I am pretty interested
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 744 2014-05-04 15:40:49 <jgarzik> tyrick, "default: open source"
 745 2014-05-04 15:41:11 <jgarzik> tyrick, US ITAR regulations impose some pretty stupid limitations, even if your project is open source.
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 747 2014-05-04 15:41:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ITAR?
 748 2014-05-04 15:41:55 <jgarzik> tyrick, software, I would _think_, would be OK to open source, but that's one of many things gotta run by the ITAR advisor :/
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 750 2014-05-04 15:43:03 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, technology-transfer-outside-the-US regulations.  Initially targeting people exporting US military tech to foreign nations (ok), but "dual use" technology which has both benign and military technology, can be restricted too.
 751 2014-05-04 15:43:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well
 752 2014-05-04 15:43:39 <jgarzik> The latter ropes in a lot of (IMO) collateral damage, especially to firms and projects that prefer open source / open hardware.
 753 2014-05-04 15:43:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I guess space is out of the is
 754 2014-05-04 15:43:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|US*
 755 2014-05-04 15:44:14 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, Sure.  It's the getting-to-space part that roadblocks you :)
 756 2014-05-04 15:44:15 gues has joined
 757 2014-05-04 15:44:35 <jgarzik> michagogo|cloud, Getting to space requires the capability to launch an ICBM
 758 2014-05-04 15:44:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Can't you ship the hardware blank, and then give them the link to download the software? :P
 759 2014-05-04 15:44:53 <jgarzik> and that capability is necessarily restricted...
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 764 2014-05-04 15:45:59 <jgarzik> Like I said, I am pretty sure software in general is OK to open source, but e.g. there might be certain software techniques (missile guidance?) that gets restricted for odd reasons.
 765 2014-05-04 15:46:09 <jgarzik> ITAR is mainly on the hardware side these days
 766 2014-05-04 15:46:22 <jgarzik> Restricting PlayStation 2's to Saddam Hussein, that sort of thing.
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 772 2014-05-04 15:55:51 <Einewton> HI
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 810 2014-05-04 16:49:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|14:34:26 <survic> (the client only makes a maximum of 8 outgoing connections by itself, this isn't an option that can be changed) <-- it's not that it's impossible to change
 811 2014-05-04 16:50:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You just need to manually change a line in (I think) net.cpp and recompile
 812 2014-05-04 16:50:22 <maaku> jgarzik: open-source or not doesn't affect ITAR rules ... which make absolutely no sense at all
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 817 2014-05-04 16:54:21 <tf2honeybadger> Hey, quick question. Will using the noatime mount option break the bitcoin daemon at all?
 818 2014-05-04 16:54:38 <tf2honeybadger> Does it need to use last access time for anything?
 819 2014-05-04 16:55:09 <maaku> tf2honeybadger: no
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 821 2014-05-04 16:55:19 <tf2honeybadger> excellent, thank you.
 822 2014-05-04 16:55:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tf2honeybadger: not that I can think of, no
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 824 2014-05-04 16:55:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I can't tell you it won't break anything, but I can't think of any possible reason it would
 825 2014-05-04 16:56:03 <tf2honeybadger> I'll test it before putting it into productoin
 826 2014-05-04 16:56:05 <maaku> i run all my servers with noatime, never experienced anything out of the ordinary
 827 2014-05-04 16:56:11 <tf2honeybadger> oh, great maaku
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 832 2014-05-04 17:06:14 <maaku> tf2honeybadger: i'm not sure anyone except backup services use atime for anything
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 861 2014-05-04 17:34:41 <tyrick> can you mine using the QT client?
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 864 2014-05-04 17:37:05 <gmaxwell> yes, though you need some additional things too.
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 867 2014-05-04 17:39:31 <tyrick> additional parameters?
 868 2014-05-04 17:40:43 <gmaxwell> tyrick: e.g. it's not interesting or economical to mine without specialized hardware.
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 870 2014-05-04 17:42:35 <tyrick> gmaxwell, agreed, but I just swapped out the genesis block and was going to play around on this new chain
 871 2014-05-04 17:42:53 <tyrick> I just thought there was a miner within QT, though I don't see it
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 874 2014-05-04 17:43:40 <PK> iirc, you can start it over the built in console?
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 876 2014-05-04 17:43:55 <PK> something like /setgenerate true or so
 877 2014-05-04 17:44:13 <PK> maybe without the slash.
 878 2014-05-04 17:44:28 * PK only remember vaguely.
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 880 2014-05-04 17:46:11 <gmaxwell> tyrick: please don't ask any further altcoin questions in here.
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 884 2014-05-04 17:51:01 <PK> gmaxwell: btw, you were quoted in a local newspaper about two months ago. I was reading the paper printed version and was surprised to see your name there. :) Here's the online version if you care: http://www.20min.ch/finance/news/story/Dubioses-Geschaeft-mit-Bitcoin-Rechnern-18031481
 885 2014-05-04 17:52:37 <tyrick> gmaxwell: I'm not making an alt; thought technically it is,  I have bitcoin in mind.
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 893 2014-05-04 18:01:44 <donvino> hi swiss friends!
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 927 2014-05-04 18:33:47 <jgarzik> maaku, Somewhat.  ITAR rules were updated in the 1990s so that crypto software was no longer classified as weapons grade munitions, in part because of open source + Internet making borders irrelevant (and as a result, jobs and crypto work started moving outside the US)
 928 2014-05-04 18:34:28 <jgarzik> No direct connection.  Ideally, ITAR rules should take into account open licensed hardware and software, but it doesn't
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 937 2014-05-04 18:48:21 <hearn> hello
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 999 2014-05-04 19:55:36 <aburan28> Has anyone seen this new paper regarding sybil attack defense in p2p networks? http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/econcs/pubs/Seuken_aamas14.pdf
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1002 2014-05-04 20:01:42 <gmaxwell> I've not seen it, the title doesn't inspire me with confidence though (transitive trust has been an orgy of failure in reputation systems; usually it elimiates one attack mode while making the system extremely vulnerable to others).  We generally don't want to be connected to our peers peers (the bitcoin network should approximately be an expander graph).
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1005 2014-05-04 20:01:54 <gmaxwell> Have you read it? is it worth reading?
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1008 2014-05-04 20:03:31 <Eliel_> I thought I'd upgrade to bitcoin core 9.1 and decided to finally try to verify it too before installing. However, I hit a wall at figuring out how to get the public key you'd need to verify the signed sha256sums.asc file. What ways are there to get it and how would I know it's the real one?
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1013 2014-05-04 20:06:50 <gmaxwell> Eliel_: it's signed by gavin's code signing key which is on the bitcoin.org site and in the pgp key servers, I believe. This key is connected to the larger pgp web of trust. If you've ever validated some strongly connected pgp keys you can find a path to it.
1014 2014-05-04 20:06:58 <gmaxwell> e.g. http://pgp.cs.uu.nl/mk_path.cgi?FROM=B0413BFA&TO=1FC730C1&PATHS=trust+paths
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1017 2014-05-04 20:08:33 <gmaxwell> (or better to use the longer fingerprint, 32 bits is too easy to forge: http://pgp.cs.uu.nl/mk_path.cgi?FROM=B0413BFA&TO=26646D99CBAEC9B81982EF6029D9EE6B1FC730C1&PATHS=trust+paths )
1018 2014-05-04 20:09:24 <gmaxwell> hearn: Hey, I was told that someone sometime sent you code implementing threshold RSA signing.  Do you still have it?
1019 2014-05-04 20:09:36 <hearn> let me rummage around and check
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1021 2014-05-04 20:10:13 <gmaxwell> (I'd like to move us to using threshold RSA for the pgp signing key for releases)
1022 2014-05-04 20:10:14 <hearn> yeah i do
1023 2014-05-04 20:10:17 <hearn> hmmm
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1025 2014-05-04 20:10:31 <hearn> why? is it worth the complexity? i got it for Android where we can’t upgrade the OS to just count signatures
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1027 2014-05-04 20:11:02 <hearn> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4t9VJLm_PWhX2ZralFGR2dJVXM/edit?usp=sharing
1028 2014-05-04 20:11:07 <hearn> it can be downloaded there
1029 2014-05-04 20:11:14 <hearn> it’s in the opentc subfolder
1030 2014-05-04 20:11:58 <gmaxwell> Becuase of norms mostly. We could implement our own signing thing for releases or tell people they must look for multiple keys, but already few enough people check the signatures. I have some friends who want an openpgp project and I thought I'd give a shot at getting them to go integrate it.
1031 2014-05-04 20:12:17 <hearn> ok. the code is pretty ugly and rather academic, and i never got around to trying it
1032 2014-05-04 20:12:24 <hearn> if they can whip it into shape that’d be fantastic
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1034 2014-05-04 20:12:46 <gmaxwell> for the android signing what format are the signatures? Is it x509?
1035 2014-05-04 20:13:08 <Eliel_> if you want more people to do it, it needs to be made somewhat easier to figure out how to do it.
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1037 2014-05-04 20:13:38 <Eliel_> if I could use the previous release to verify the new release somehow, it'd make it much simpler.
1038 2014-05-04 20:14:02 <gmaxwell> Eliel_: I know. There are a bunch of annoying things about it. Part of it is just documentation, but since the whole process needs to be improved I haven't thought it was important write good docs yet.
1039 2014-05-04 20:14:43 <hearn> i am not sure. i haven’t looked. but the signatures the library creates are regular RSA so it should be irrelevant
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1041 2014-05-04 20:15:14 <Eliel_> for example, if could do something like "bitcoind verifyupgrade /tmp/bitcoin-0.9.1-linux.tar.gz", I'd most likely use it.
1042 2014-05-04 20:15:34 <hearn> BlueMatt once implemented auto update for bitcoin core
1043 2014-05-04 20:15:39 <hearn> but it was never merged
1044 2014-05-04 20:16:01 <gmaxwell> It wasn't mergable.
1045 2014-05-04 20:16:08 <gmaxwell> (and matt will tell you this too)
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1050 2014-05-04 20:18:25 <gmaxwell> Eliel_: this is what gitian downloader is ultimately to do. Needs work. we wouldn't merge it into the bitcoin(d) binary itself, but we could certantly ship an update checker.
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1053 2014-05-04 20:20:08 <Eliel_> gmaxwell: just make sure "bitcoind help" has information on how to use it. I'd expect most people working with bitcoind to read that at some point.
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1057 2014-05-04 20:27:49 <hearn> gmaxwell: yeah i know. was just observing for Eliel_
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1065 2014-05-04 20:34:58 <BlueMatt> essentially the issue was how to ship the update checker
1066 2014-05-04 20:35:07 <BlueMatt> (its a python program, but you want to ship it for windows as well)
1067 2014-05-04 20:35:31 <BlueMatt> so you need to ship a compiled-to-binary python program and any necessary interpreters, etc as well as eg a gpg binary
1068 2014-05-04 20:35:41 <BlueMatt> so it gets gross to try to build it deterministically
1069 2014-05-04 20:36:08 <BlueMatt> but someone should totally solve this problem
1070 2014-05-04 20:36:12 <BlueMatt> its probably only a few weeks of work
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1072 2014-05-04 20:36:42 <BlueMatt> still, could be easily shipped for linux in a day of work, essentially
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1076 2014-05-04 20:39:54 <sipa> jgarzik: so how are frequency available to such sattelites allocated?
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1078 2014-05-04 20:42:14 <hearn> hey BlueMatt
1079 2014-05-04 20:42:20 <BlueMatt> hi
1080 2014-05-04 20:42:41 * BlueMatt has two more days of exams, then BITCOIN (and graduation, but mostly BITCOIN)
1081 2014-05-04 20:43:06 <sipa> BlueMatt: woohoo!
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1083 2014-05-04 20:43:33 <hearn> woooot
1084 2014-05-04 20:43:49 <hearn> looking forward to having you back
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1088 2014-05-04 20:43:54 <BlueMatt> indeed
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1092 2014-05-04 20:45:34 <jgarzik> sipa, depends on $$ and whether or not the project is non-commercial, transmitter power, and other factors
1093 2014-05-04 20:45:53 <jgarzik> sipa, part of the design phase (ongoing contract, ends in August) is to scope that out precisely
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1097 2014-05-04 20:50:32 <hearn> ye gods. chrome finally implementing origin chips about 3 years after i proposed it
1098 2014-05-04 20:51:37 <BlueMatt> origin chips?
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1102 2014-05-04 20:53:53 <hearn> actually make that 4 years
1103 2014-05-04 20:53:58 <hearn> no sorry. 5 years ago.
1104 2014-05-04 20:53:59 <hearn> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/chromium-dev/ygbwcSE8lZ8
1105 2014-05-04 20:54:06 <hearn> http://jakearchibald.com/2014/improving-the-url-bar/
1106 2014-05-04 20:54:15 <hearn> basically only show domain name in the URL bar
1107 2014-05-04 20:54:31 <BlueMatt> ahh, that stuff
1108 2014-05-04 20:54:48 <hearn> i wrote a longer argument for it somewhere. not sure if it was internal or public though
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1190 2014-05-04 22:20:13 <zone117x> I need to setup a LOCAL testnet. which involves spawning two coin daemons and pointing them at each other
1191 2014-05-04 22:20:24 <zone117x> which lets you start at block height 1
1192 2014-05-04 22:20:35 Luke-Jr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1193 2014-05-04 22:20:35 <zone117x> which is very useful for th testing I'm doing for my software
1194 2014-05-04 22:20:38 <sipa> you probably want regtest :)
1195 2014-05-04 22:20:41 <GAit> zone117x: are you sure you don't want to use regtest?
1196 2014-05-04 22:21:05 <zone117x> the problem is, bitcoin has a testnet network it automatically tries to connect to
1197 2014-05-04 22:21:10 <zone117x> even if I use the "connect" options
1198 2014-05-04 22:21:20 <sipa> it shouldn't
1199 2014-05-04 22:21:21 <zone117x> for both daemons and point them at each other, it creates 0 connections
1200 2014-05-04 22:21:33 <sipa> with -connect, -listen is disabled
1201 2014-05-04 22:21:35 <zone117x> using "addnode" to connect to eachother doesnt work because it ends up connecting to the global testnet
1202 2014-05-04 22:21:52 <sipa> so you need one to use -connect, and the other -listen
1203 2014-05-04 22:22:06 <zone117x> so could some brielfy explain the options I would use with two testnet daemons running local to get them to ONLY connnect to each other?
1204 2014-05-04 22:22:11 <sipa> i just told you
1205 2014-05-04 22:22:20 <zone117x> kk let me try to parse and apply that - thanks sipa
1206 2014-05-04 22:22:23 <sipa> and you still want regtest probably, which is intended for such purposes
1207 2014-05-04 22:22:27 <zone117x> where have I seen your nick before?
1208 2014-05-04 22:22:32 <sipa> here?
1209 2014-05-04 22:22:37 <zone117x> huh maybe
1210 2014-05-04 22:22:45 <zone117x> Im developer of NOMP. heard of it yet?
1211 2014-05-04 22:22:48 <sipa> no
1212 2014-05-04 22:22:59 <zone117x> sipa are you BTC only?
1213 2014-05-04 22:23:01 <zone117x> no altcoin
1214 2014-05-04 22:23:06 <sipa> yes
1215 2014-05-04 22:23:07 <zone117x> or anti-altcoin ?
1216 2014-05-04 22:23:15 <sipa> mostly dontcare-about-altcoin
1217 2014-05-04 22:23:20 <zone117x> makes sense
1218 2014-05-04 22:23:29 <zone117x> I dont think any altcoins so far have long term value
1219 2014-05-04 22:23:46 <zone117x> however I've done a ton of work to support the various altcoins in NOMP because thats what people want right now
1220 2014-05-04 22:23:54 <zone117x> any donations I get in various coins I convert to btc
1221 2014-05-04 22:24:06 <zone117x> https://github.com/zone117x/node-open-mining-portal
1222 2014-05-04 22:24:09 <zone117x> this is NOMP
1223 2014-05-04 22:24:14 <zone117x> it works well for BTC too
1224 2014-05-04 22:24:17 <sipa> k
1225 2014-05-04 22:24:38 <zone117x> whats the most popular startum pool server used for btc?
1226 2014-05-04 22:24:41 <zone117x> eloipool ?
1227 2014-05-04 22:24:49 <sipa> no clue; i don't know anything about mining these days
1228 2014-05-04 22:24:54 <zone117x> ah okay
1229 2014-05-04 22:25:01 <zone117x> well I have yet to do some solid benchmarking
1230 2014-05-04 22:25:22 <zone117x> but I wouldnt be suprised if NOMP was the most efficient/scalable pool server in existence today
1231 2014-05-04 22:25:31 <zone117x> eloipool is great - but its limited to python
1232 2014-05-04 22:25:48 <zone117x> while NOMP uses node.js which is the child of decades long browser wards :p
1233 2014-05-04 22:26:04 <sipa> let's not get into language discussions
1234 2014-05-04 22:26:40 <zone117x> agreed, wrong channel. I digressed.
1235 2014-05-04 22:26:41 kanzure has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1236 2014-05-04 22:26:46 <zone117x> anyway, let me try your suggestions
1237 2014-05-04 22:26:53 <zone117x> for this testnet crap
1238 2014-05-04 22:27:08 <zone117x> what order do you recommend?
1239 2014-05-04 22:27:13 <sipa> -regtest is sort of a testnet that has no actual network, and won't connect out by default
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1241 2014-05-04 22:27:22 <sipa> it's mostly intended for regression tests against bitcoind
1242 2014-05-04 22:27:28 <sipa> but it's fully functional
1243 2014-05-04 22:27:46 <zone117x> when was this implemented in btc?
1244 2014-05-04 22:28:08 <sipa> (and has a base difficulty of 0.000000000466, so mining against it is trivial)
1245 2014-05-04 22:28:11 <sipa> 0.8 or so
1246 2014-05-04 22:28:15 <zone117x> also I need my testing to mimick orphaned blocks
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1248 2014-05-04 22:29:26 <sipa> it was introduced in 0.9, sorry
1249 2014-05-04 22:29:51 <hearn> 0.9
1250 2014-05-04 22:29:59 <hearn> it might feel like 0.8 because i wrote it back in, like, april :)
1251 2014-05-04 22:30:01 <sipa> for testnet: run one with -listen -connect=0.0.0.0, run the other with -connect=IP
1252 2014-05-04 22:30:24 <sipa> yeah. 0.8 is ancient history by now
1253 2014-05-04 22:30:44 <sipa> 1.25 years ago
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1256 2014-05-04 22:34:45 <GAit> do you know if some block/transaction sites (bc.i) are having issues displaying p2sh tx in mempool?
1257 2014-05-04 22:35:22 <sipa> if in doubt whether b.i is correct: yes
1258 2014-05-04 22:36:30 <GAit> yeah, checked against blockr.io, insight.is, few webwallets. but the issue is especially with p2sh transactions
1259 2014-05-04 22:36:47 <GAit> and yes only bc.i
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1261 2014-05-04 22:38:37 <GAit> maybe a stupid question but i'd like to know more about the payment protocol. How do you envision the multioutput to work?Why would a merchant ask to get paid a bit here and a bit there? taxes obligations could be such a case?
1262 2014-05-04 22:39:59 <GAit> is there an obvious use case i'm missing?
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1267 2014-05-04 22:43:06 <sipa> if as a sender if you have some coins you'd rather not see linked
1268 2014-05-04 22:43:14 <sipa> it may be useful to send them separately
1269 2014-05-04 22:43:52 <hearn> GAit: https://medium.com/bitcoin-banter/7f95a386692f
1270 2014-05-04 22:44:08 <hearn> that article explains it
1271 2014-05-04 22:44:50 <hearn> GAit: btw i also wrote one today on BIP70 and stealth addresses. feedback welcome. i didn’t publicise it much yet: https://medium.com/p/cb2f81962c1b
1272 2014-05-04 22:46:05 <GAit> hearn: interesting. I like it. A bit complicated for users to configure but good defaults could split incoming funds in various denominations as best as it matches your spending habits
1273 2014-05-04 22:46:16 <hearn> the idea is wallets do it all automatically
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1275 2014-05-04 22:46:27 <GAit> yeah and can learn to do it better
1276 2014-05-04 22:46:37 <hearn> right. i forsee/hope that wallets compete on this aspect
1277 2014-05-04 22:46:48 <hearn> though to some extent you’re at the mercy of the wallet *sending* you money.
1278 2014-05-04 22:46:58 <hearn> currently no wallets do merge avoidance
1279 2014-05-04 22:46:59 <GAit> thanks for the pointer!
1280 2014-05-04 22:47:51 <GAit> sipa: as a sender yes but then you would need a way to negotiate wit the other side how many in each address
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1282 2014-05-04 22:49:19 <hearn> GAit: that’s the idea of bip70 - the receiver asks for a spread of denominations as it wishes, and the sender then tries to satisfy that with minimal merging
1283 2014-05-04 22:49:25 <hearn> so they work together to preserve privacy
1284 2014-05-04 22:50:23 <GAit> yeah i agree to that but the sender of money can't decide to how many addresses he is going to pay or how much per each address
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1286 2014-05-04 22:51:38 <GAit> the cooperation about non correlation can just be best effort
1287 2014-05-04 22:52:08 <hearn> that’s the idea
1288 2014-05-04 22:52:14 <GAit> you are not guaranteed you won't receive funds on these two or n addresses from one input
1289 2014-05-04 22:52:25 <hearn> i designed this aspect of BIP 70 so it could be developed and rolled out incrementally
1290 2014-05-04 22:52:54 <GAit> ok. i was just windering, the sender has a better idea of how many addresses the funds will come from, so it is in a better capacity to offer or suggest the amount of addresses
1291 2014-05-04 22:53:02 <GAit> s/windering/wondering
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1296 2014-05-04 22:58:02 <hearn> GAit: in v1.0 of the payment protocol you cannot ask the sender to spread value over outputs as it sees fit, but that might be a nice enhancement for future. however the recipient knows what kind of sizes of coins it wants, so i’m also not totally sure it’d be useful
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1330 2014-05-04 23:39:02 <tyrick> How common are Orphan blocks?
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