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40 2014-05-05 00:59:24 <BlueMatt> it appears they reset their counters, so just ignore the 0 line, but https://blockchain.info/charts/n-orphaned-blocks
41 2014-05-05 00:59:37 <BlueMatt> its a lower bound
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125 2014-05-05 02:41:19 <ganjafarmer> hey does anyone recall any of those new services that offer web services APIs for building bitcoin apps on top of? pretty sure there were a couple of them around now, but i can't find them.
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177 2014-05-05 03:27:43 <jcorgan> no/cl
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251 2014-05-05 05:07:21 <justanotheruser> m not thinking too clearly. It would be a smaller amount of space (counting both the output script and input scriptsig) to act as an oracle by signing the number 0 or 1 (for event happened or didn't) than would to sign the transaction itself?
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253 2014-05-05 05:10:25 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: better to do what relaity keys does and have the oralcle release either an Yes or No private key, since this lets you do the maximally small thing, _and_ it allows you to blind the oracle to your transaction.
254 2014-05-05 05:11:35 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: how does it blind the oracle more than signing 1 or 0?
255 2014-05-05 05:12:07 <gmaxwell> because you sum the oracles public key with user public key(s).
256 2014-05-05 05:12:55 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: what do you mean summing them? Is that related to ECDSA or bitcoin scripting?
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259 2014-05-05 05:15:29 <gmaxwell> The former.
260 2014-05-05 05:17:14 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: how is the public key known if you haven't summed them yet (before the event has happens, but after the tx has been made)?
261 2014-05-05 05:17:52 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: the service tells you what the public keys will be.
262 2014-05-05 05:18:24 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: but isn't the key sum needed for the transaction?
263 2014-05-05 05:18:32 <gmaxwell> Yes.
264 2014-05-05 05:18:47 <justanotheruser> The service can only tell you their public key, not the keysum
265 2014-05-05 05:20:38 <justanotheruser> On a different note, is it just (myPriv +theirPriv) mod maxkeyval?
266 2014-05-05 05:20:54 <gmaxwell> I don't understand where your confusion is coming from... so I'm just going to explain the whole thing. You ask the oracle, "Hey, help us out by telling us later if the bitcoin market price went up." the oracle responds, "Okay, if the price goes up, tomorrow I'll release the private key for pubkey A, otherwise I'll release the private key for pubkey B".
267 2014-05-05 05:21:47 <gmaxwell> Then we can go off and form a transaction which pays to 1 of 2 mypub+A and yourpub+B. The private keys combine like you expect (mod the order of the group).
268 2014-05-05 05:22:22 <gmaxwell> The oracle cannot identify the transaction on the blockchain related to its decision, at least not without someone telling it mypub or yourpub.
269 2014-05-05 05:22:22 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: understood. The confusion is on how you construct a transaction which is pay2pubkeyhash without knowing the public key generated from the privatekeysum if the private key sum isn't known yet
270 2014-05-05 05:22:42 <gmaxwell> You sum the _public keys_ to get the public key sum.
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272 2014-05-05 05:22:48 <gmaxwell> (it's point addition)
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274 2014-05-05 05:23:30 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: will pubkeyA + pubkeyB be the same as the public key for privkeyA + privketB?
275 2014-05-05 05:25:15 <justanotheruser> Never mind, that's a really.dumb questiln
276 2014-05-05 05:25:29 <gmaxwell> Yes. (in the first case it's point addition, in the latter its addition of scalars mod the curve order), because A*G + B*G = (A+B)*G
277 2014-05-05 05:26:18 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: I guess it wasn't a dumb question and the root of my confusion was that I didn't understand that
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282 2014-05-05 05:27:27 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: interesting. So I wouldn't need to communicate with the user for them to use me as an oracle would I?
283 2014-05-05 05:28:51 <gmaxwell> You could just act as a broadcasting party.
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285 2014-05-05 05:29:44 <justanotheruser> Cool, thanks for your help. Interesting how ECDSA adds like that. Is it the same for RSA?
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287 2014-05-05 05:31:46 <gmaxwell> There are related homorphisms in RSA cryptosystem, the EC ones are nicer and generally more usable.
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289 2014-05-05 05:34:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: it's the same mechanism that allows vanity address mining
290 2014-05-05 05:35:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(I think)
291 2014-05-05 05:35:14 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: oh, it isn't just brute forcing all signatures?
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293 2014-05-05 05:35:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: hm?
294 2014-05-05 05:35:39 <justanotheruser> *bruteforcing All keys
295 2014-05-05 05:35:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|By "vanity address mining" I mean having someone else generate a vanity address for you
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297 2014-05-05 05:37:45 <GAit> i'd like to learn more about that
298 2014-05-05 05:37:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I generate a privkey, and give you the pubkey. You brute-force a certain pattern, but rather than generating privkeys and looking at their pubkeyhashes, you look at the hashes of that pubkey plus the pubkey I gave you.
299 2014-05-05 05:38:11 <GAit> oh, got it
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301 2014-05-05 05:38:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|When you find one, you give me the privkey, and I combine that with my privkey, and I have a privkey, known only to me, with that vanity address
302 2014-05-05 05:40:36 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: oh, I thought you were talking about local mining. That's smart
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304 2014-05-05 05:41:56 <GAit> very interesting how this property can be used for privacy in 'oracle' applications.
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306 2014-05-05 05:43:20 <justanotheruser> Yeah, the oracle part seems ridiculously easy to implement
307 2014-05-05 05:45:56 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: kazam: https://www.realitykeys.com/
308 2014-05-05 05:46:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: I've seen the local, search-for-yourself version called "generation" and the search-for-someone-else version called "mining"
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310 2014-05-05 05:47:39 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: aww, its already done
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312 2014-05-05 05:48:23 <gmaxwell> (even more fun than 1 of 2, use 1 of 3 with {userA+OracleA,userB+OracleB,userA+userB} so even if the oracle craps out, the users can cooperate to release without the oracle's help)
313 2014-05-05 05:48:58 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: why aren't all m of n tx compressed like this?
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315 2014-05-05 05:50:11 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: AFAIK no one has done a useful interface for the key addition, so as far as I know, no one is using it that way currently!
316 2014-05-05 05:50:36 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: because you have to actually share a private key to do this, which is usually NOT what you want to do, since you lose all control of it if you do that.
317 2014-05-05 05:51:02 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: well the oracles could sign their one time private key
318 2014-05-05 05:51:09 <justanotheruser> *public
319 2014-05-05 05:51:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|8:46:21 <gmaxwell> (even more fun than 1 of 2, use 1 of 3 with {userA+OracleA,userB+OracleB,userA+userB} so even if the oracle craps out, the users can cooperate to release without the oracle's help) <-- the users need to trust each other, to do that
320 2014-05-05 05:51:27 <gmaxwell> yes its fine for the oracle application, it's useless for virtually every other application.
321 2014-05-05 05:52:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or use a trusted 3rd party
322 2014-05-05 05:52:08 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: trust each other to get the money back to a party, which is better than not getting it at all
323 2014-05-05 05:52:09 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: well not precisely. I mean, if userA won, userB would give him his private key.
324 2014-05-05 05:52:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Er, um.
325 2014-05-05 05:52:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah.
326 2014-05-05 05:52:26 <gmaxwell> UserB has absolutely no reason to demand the other direction except fraud.
327 2014-05-05 05:52:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'll just go away now.
328 2014-05-05 05:52:43 <gmaxwell> it's okay. :) this stuff is tricky.
329 2014-05-05 05:52:44 <justanotheruser> Gmax
330 2014-05-05 05:53:02 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: how is it not useful for m of n?
331 2014-05-05 05:53:36 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
332 2014-05-05 05:53:47 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: because one party has free control of the resulting transaction.
333 2014-05-05 05:53:59 <gmaxwell> It's not a threshold signature, it's just people handing over private keys.
334 2014-05-05 05:54:18 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: ah, youre right
335 2014-05-05 05:55:11 <gmaxwell> It works for a narrow set of usecases where you need a single, one time, binary control. Otherwise you need a multisignature or thresholdsignature.
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380 2014-05-05 06:56:22 <warren> can someone recommend the easiest way to synthetically put bitcoin into safe mode?
381 2014-05-05 06:56:37 <wumpus> there's a commnd line option for that
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383 2014-05-05 07:01:56 <warren> sorry, where?
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414 2014-05-05 07:30:19 <wumpus> src/init.cpp: strUsage += " -testsafemode " + _("Force safe mode (default: 0)") + "\n";
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462 2014-05-05 08:20:56 <damethos> Quick question: Do you need to send a getblocks request to bitcoind every 500 blocks or if you make one getblocks request and wait you will receive future blocks as well?
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464 2014-05-05 08:28:11 <olalonde> i think by default you only receive new blocks
465 2014-05-05 08:28:38 <olalonde> after you received the 500 blocks you should probably make a new request until you are up to sync
466 2014-05-05 08:28:52 <sipa> damethos: you will always see invs for new blocks
467 2014-05-05 08:29:11 <sipa> but you need to use getblocks to get the invs as long as you're not synced
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473 2014-05-05 08:42:22 <damethos> thanks guys, makes sense now
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530 2014-05-05 09:58:31 <WhiteStar> who is Martin Thursby?
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661 2014-05-05 12:39:29 <elichai2> hey
662 2014-05-05 12:40:04 <elichai2> how can i make bitcoin self compiled binary weigh less?
663 2014-05-05 12:40:22 <sipa> strip it?
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667 2014-05-05 12:42:41 <elichai2> yeah
668 2014-05-05 12:42:48 <elichai2> what command?
669 2014-05-05 12:43:00 smash has joined
670 2014-05-05 12:43:02 <null> strip(1)
671 2014-05-05 12:43:09 nsh has joined
672 2014-05-05 12:43:38 <elichai2> null: what?
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674 2014-05-05 12:43:46 <survic> $ strip bitcoind
675 2014-05-05 12:43:50 <sipa> to strip a binary, you use the 'strip' command
676 2014-05-05 12:43:54 <elichai2> ohh ok
677 2014-05-05 12:44:04 <sipa> null's notation means you're supposed to look up the man page for strip in section 1
678 2014-05-05 12:44:27 <sipa> man 1 strip
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683 2014-05-05 12:47:51 <dexX7> is there any transaction type which is not pay-from-pubkey-hash which has a pubkey as second scriptsig parameter?
684 2014-05-05 12:48:31 <sipa> an infinite number of them, but none standard
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686 2014-05-05 12:49:19 <dexX7> ty
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718 2014-05-05 13:24:47 <mantas322> Hi guys
719 2014-05-05 13:25:12 <mantas322> I just watched the MIT videos..
720 2014-05-05 13:25:22 maraoz has joined
721 2014-05-05 13:25:37 <mantas322> Good Job Gavin!
722 2014-05-05 13:27:38 <mantas322> excellent presentation.
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782 2014-05-05 14:16:19 <arjen-jonathan> I want to retrieve the output address from an arbitrary scrypt
783 2014-05-05 14:17:12 pierreat1ork has joined
784 2014-05-05 14:17:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|arjen-jonathan: do you mean a script?
785 2014-05-05 14:18:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And does the script in question fit the form "OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubkeyhash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG"?
786 2014-05-05 14:18:23 <arjen-jonathan> Ah yes I meant a script. And no.
787 2014-05-05 14:18:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well, can you explain what you're trying to do then?
788 2014-05-05 14:18:55 <wumpus> from what programming language?
789 2014-05-05 14:19:07 <arjen-jonathan> c++, original bitcoin implementation.
790 2014-05-05 14:19:29 <wumpus> what you need is a script matcher/recognizer
791 2014-05-05 14:19:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What are you trying to do here?
792 2014-05-05 14:19:35 <arjen-jonathan> I do want to extract the pubkeyhash, but from arbitrary scripts.
793 2014-05-05 14:19:50 <sipa> well only pay-to-pubkeyhash scripts have a pubkeyhash...
794 2014-05-05 14:19:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Zoom out a step, what are you trying to accomplish here?
795 2014-05-05 14:20:09 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
796 2014-05-05 14:20:14 <sipa> we have a hack for extracting a pubkeyhash from a pay-to-pubkey as well, but i consider that an ugly historical artifact
797 2014-05-05 14:20:23 <arjen-jonathan> Hmm
798 2014-05-05 14:20:47 <sipa> addresses are shorthands for specific scripts
799 2014-05-05 14:21:07 <sipa> going back from the script to the address is just matching it against the standard template for that address type
800 2014-05-05 14:21:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_version_1_Bitcoin_addresses
801 2014-05-05 14:21:43 Guest20159 is now known as WKNiGHT
802 2014-05-05 14:21:45 <arjen-jonathan> Oke, stepping back: I want to know from where the coins that are spent in the tx that I'm looking at are coming from.
803 2014-05-05 14:21:53 <sipa> don't
804 2014-05-05 14:21:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|arjen-jonathan: you probably don't
805 2014-05-05 14:22:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|or, can't
806 2014-05-05 14:22:05 <sipa> you sould not care about that
807 2014-05-05 14:22:06 Milanito has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
808 2014-05-05 14:22:09 <arjen-jonathan> Why?
809 2014-05-05 14:22:17 <sipa> unless you sent them yourself, in which case you already know
810 2014-05-05 14:22:18 Milanito has joined
811 2014-05-05 14:22:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why do you want to
812 2014-05-05 14:22:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|?
813 2014-05-05 14:22:30 <sipa> you cannot rely on what scripts some previous person used to maintain its coins
814 2014-05-05 14:22:33 ryanxcharles has joined
815 2014-05-05 14:22:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If we know why you think you want to do this, we can better explain why you don't
816 2014-05-05 14:22:49 <sipa> and your code will break if people start using complex scripts, or coinjoin, ...
817 2014-05-05 14:22:49 Vitalik has joined
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819 2014-05-05 14:23:06 <sipa> see topic: "there is no from address"
820 2014-05-05 14:23:18 <arjen-jonathan> *looking up that topic*
821 2014-05-05 14:23:32 <sipa> no, just the topic of this channel
822 2014-05-05 14:23:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|hm? he means, "as it says in the channel topic"
823 2014-05-05 14:24:02 <sipa> bitcoin transactions spend coins, and those coins may or may not have a recognizable address they were previously sent to
824 2014-05-05 14:24:22 <sipa> but this is not "where the coins come from", it cannot be used to reliably detect who sent it
825 2014-05-05 14:24:31 <sipa> and it cannot be used to reliably send coins back to them
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829 2014-05-05 14:25:43 <mantas322> sipa, you were mentioned in gavin's talk.
830 2014-05-05 14:25:53 <sipa> cool; didn't watch it yet
831 2014-05-05 14:26:07 <mantas322> celebrity status.
832 2014-05-05 14:28:10 <arjen-jonathan> sipa: what do you mean with 'who sent it'? Is is impossible to find out from which wallet they are being moved?
833 2014-05-05 14:28:17 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: yes
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835 2014-05-05 14:28:48 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: if you need to distinuish who sent it, or what it is for: use a different receive address for each payment
836 2014-05-05 14:28:48 <arjen-jonathan> No let me rephrase that. Let's assume I see all blocks coming in. Could I detect transactions that move coins from a specific wallet?
837 2014-05-05 14:28:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You can tell which script an output was previously assigned to
838 2014-05-05 14:29:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes, you could
839 2014-05-05 14:29:03 tjopper has joined
840 2014-05-05 14:29:04 <sipa> you have no concept of what someone's wallet is
841 2014-05-05 14:29:15 <sipa> or how they manage the coins in it
842 2014-05-05 14:29:22 <sipa> and you shouldn't care
843 2014-05-05 14:29:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But a wallet may not be what you think it is
844 2014-05-05 14:29:37 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
845 2014-05-05 14:29:37 <sipa> a wallet is a client-level abstraction
846 2014-05-05 14:29:40 <arjen-jonathan> I'm only caring because I want to understand this.
847 2014-05-05 14:30:03 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: for example, if you have a shared wallet, where multiple users have a balance, but the coins are shared
848 2014-05-05 14:30:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you know all the public keys in a wallet, you can monitor for transactions spending outputs sent to that wallet, yes
849 2014-05-05 14:30:24 <arjen-jonathan> sipa: Yes I understand.
850 2014-05-05 14:30:24 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: sending coins back to the apparent "from address" may result in them being credited to the wrong user
851 2014-05-05 14:30:24 ribasushi has joined
852 2014-05-05 14:30:59 <arjen-jonathan> I'm not really interested in tying tx 'es to people.
853 2014-05-05 14:31:08 <sipa> then how do you define wallet?
854 2014-05-05 14:31:12 <arjen-jonathan> Oke, my nomen clature is a bit rusty.
855 2014-05-05 14:31:44 <sipa> if you can detect two payments as coming from the same wallet, that would be a serious privacy problem
856 2014-05-05 14:32:03 roconnor has joined
857 2014-05-05 14:32:11 <sipa> (if people reuse the same address for multiple payments, they are voluntarily giving up privacy)
858 2014-05-05 14:32:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(and not just their privacy, either)
859 2014-05-05 14:32:24 <arjen-jonathan> Let me rephrase it again: transations move coins from something and to something. In bitcoin those somethings have addresses in the end correct? (leaving out publicly spendable txes for now)
860 2014-05-05 14:32:40 tyrick has joined
861 2014-05-05 14:32:46 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: they do not move them "from" somewhere
862 2014-05-05 14:32:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No
863 2014-05-05 14:33:09 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: they consume coins, and produce new coins, and assign those coins a script which defines under which conditions it can be spent
864 2014-05-05 14:33:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|A transaction, say a coinbase transaction with no inputs, creates one or more outputs
865 2014-05-05 14:33:19 <sipa> that script is sometimes recognizable as an address
866 2014-05-05 14:33:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It defines conditions under which that output may be spent
867 2014-05-05 14:33:37 <sipa> but "who needed to sign to spend a coin" is not "who sent the coin"
868 2014-05-05 14:33:56 travelingTeen is now known as zapsoda
869 2014-05-05 14:34:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|To create new outputs outside of a coinbase transaction, you must spend other outputs
870 2014-05-05 14:34:44 <arjen-jonathan> Yes, so far I understand it.
871 2014-05-05 14:34:58 <sipa> do you know coinjoin?
872 2014-05-05 14:35:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You do that by fulfilling the conditions on one or more existing outputs, with a value equal to or greater than the new outputs you're creating
873 2014-05-05 14:35:05 <arjen-jonathan> sipa: no.
874 2014-05-05 14:35:26 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: it means you jointly construct a transaction... with inputs coming from both people's wallets, and outputs going to both people's payees
875 2014-05-05 14:35:41 <arjen-jonathan> michagogo|cloud: yes. and in most cases that means your hash must match the "to" correct?
876 2014-05-05 14:35:44 <sipa> so such a transaction does not even have a single "sender"
877 2014-05-05 14:35:52 smash has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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879 2014-05-05 14:36:00 <sipa> and it's still not distinguishable from a "normal" transaction
880 2014-05-05 14:36:12 ericmuyser has joined
881 2014-05-05 14:36:23 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: that makes no sense
882 2014-05-05 14:36:28 eristisk has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
883 2014-05-05 14:36:28 <sipa> what hash?
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885 2014-05-05 14:36:47 <arjen-jonathan> sipa: yes, I understand, but I could still see that some address/identifier (not of a person obviously) is contributing then?
886 2014-05-05 14:36:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|arjen-jonathan: An address, such as 1MichakGVx5GeKMKw12aWg66CEuqTGrBB9, is shorthand for the set of conditions that is: a public key that hashes to this value must be presented, and the transaction must be signed by that key
887 2014-05-05 14:37:02 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: yes, but that's utterly meaningless
888 2014-05-05 14:37:18 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: what would you use that information for?
889 2014-05-05 14:37:24 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: plus it's confusing to people
890 2014-05-05 14:37:29 <arjen-jonathan> I see
891 2014-05-05 14:37:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And in many cases, the script a coin was previously assigned to isn't able to be spent from by the originator of the transaction
892 2014-05-05 14:38:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|For example, if you use webwallets that use a shared wallet
893 2014-05-05 14:38:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|For example, coinbase.com
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895 2014-05-05 14:39:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|When you tell coinbase,com that you want to spend bitcoins from your online wallet there, they won't send the same bitcoins that you deposited
896 2014-05-05 14:39:29 Diablo-D3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
897 2014-05-05 14:39:38 <sipa> they just maintain one pile of coins
898 2014-05-05 14:39:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|When you send them bitcoins, they just go into the massive pool, and your balance is incremented
899 2014-05-05 14:39:48 <sipa> and remember how much of each customer owns
900 2014-05-05 14:39:51 <sipa> not which coins they own
901 2014-05-05 14:40:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|When you tell them to send coins, they just send any coins from that pool
902 2014-05-05 14:40:09 Diablo-D3 has joined
903 2014-05-05 14:40:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And the address that the coins previously belonged to isn't yours
904 2014-05-05 14:41:19 <sipa> as luke likes to say: once a coin is in a wallet, it doesn't matter anymore to what address it was sent
905 2014-05-05 14:41:29 <sipa> only the knowledge on how to spend it
906 2014-05-05 14:41:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So if some unwise merchant erroneously thinks that they can send you coins back to the address that they were previously sent to, they'll send your refund back to coinbase.com
907 2014-05-05 14:42:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It may get credited to some random user, or it may just vanish into the void and become profit for them
908 2014-05-05 14:42:34 Emzy has joined
909 2014-05-05 14:42:36 <arjen-jonathan> Yes, I see how that works
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911 2014-05-05 14:44:26 <sipa> it's not that you can't define "which addresses contributed to this transaction", it's that it is useless information
912 2014-05-05 14:45:01 <survic> unless it's a blockchain.info wallet making the transactions, then that information is all revealing.
913 2014-05-05 14:45:37 <sipa> that means you're relying on particular properties of the software creating the transaction
914 2014-05-05 14:45:57 banghouse has joined
915 2014-05-05 14:46:06 <sipa> which is unnecesarily restricting
916 2014-05-05 14:46:15 <arjen-jonathan> So basically: unless I have the PRIVATE key, there is no way to know from what entity money is coming from
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918 2014-05-05 14:46:44 <lianj> michagogo|cloud: fyi, for coinbase.com sending back to that address works and will end up in your account again.
919 2014-05-05 14:46:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Uh?
920 2014-05-05 14:47:15 <survic> sipa: blockchain.info wallets make up most of the transactions on the network I would think. not using change addresses is a huge giveaway.
921 2014-05-05 14:47:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So they actually keep their users' wallets separated?
922 2014-05-05 14:47:28 <sipa> survic: yes
923 2014-05-05 14:47:29 <survic> they're also tagged as such.
924 2014-05-05 14:47:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|survic: huh?
925 2014-05-05 14:47:43 <survic> michagogo|cloud: no they're not. they use hot/cold wallets.
926 2014-05-05 14:47:44 <lianj> michagogo|cloud: yes
927 2014-05-05 14:47:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No they're not
928 2014-05-05 14:47:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Tagged how?
929 2014-05-05 14:48:20 <arjen-jonathan> Let me ask something stupid: what DOES a public key represent then?
930 2014-05-05 14:48:25 eristisk has joined
931 2014-05-05 14:48:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|arjen-jonathan: a pubkey is a pubkey
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933 2014-05-05 14:48:53 <arjen-jonathan> But is is tied to any coins in any way?
934 2014-05-05 14:48:53 <lianj> the relation between a user sending from that address doesn't break. if someone refunds to those address they end up back in your account.
935 2014-05-05 14:49:08 <accelerate> [10:43:51] <arjen-jonathan> So basically: unless I have the PRIVATE key, there is no way to know from what entity money is coming from
936 2014-05-05 14:49:10 <accelerate> This isn't true
937 2014-05-05 14:49:23 <sipa> you may have a watch-only wallet with just public keys
938 2014-05-05 14:49:31 <survic> michagogo|cloud: blockchain.info shows "sent by" IP addresses. for blockchain.info wallets that's localhost/loopback. all web wallet transactions have this, but not all transactions with loopback IP addresses are web wallet transactions. you can use other tells, like their signature encoding and use of change addresses as well.
939 2014-05-05 14:49:37 <sipa> but know that those keys are managed together by particular software in a particular way
940 2014-05-05 14:49:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|arjen-jonathan: if you want to know where a payment is coming from, you give them a unique address
941 2014-05-05 14:49:56 HANTI is now known as hanti
942 2014-05-05 14:50:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|When a payment comes to that address, you know it's from whoever you gave the address to
943 2014-05-05 14:50:20 ajweiss has joined
944 2014-05-05 14:50:29 <accelerate> unless someone's spying on you, michagogo|cloud. ;)
945 2014-05-05 14:50:40 <sipa> it means you track what is being paid for
946 2014-05-05 14:50:43 <sipa> not who is paying
947 2014-05-05 14:50:43 <dgenr8> someday I hope to see a wallet called "keybag" that exposes the controlled UTXO's unapologetically and intuitively
948 2014-05-05 14:50:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you know all the pubkeys of a wallet, you can identify transactions in and out of that wallet
949 2014-05-05 14:50:49 Ashaman has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
950 2014-05-05 14:50:52 <sipa> which is almost always what you actually care about
951 2014-05-05 14:51:21 <sipa> dgenr8: it would be a scriptbag, not a keybah
952 2014-05-05 14:51:31 <sipa> dgenr8: you only need the keys to actually create transactions to spend them
953 2014-05-05 14:51:31 <dgenr8> private key bag
954 2014-05-05 14:51:39 <dgenr8> bag of private keys
955 2014-05-05 14:51:45 <sipa> and that may be more complex than just tracking the balance of the bag
956 2014-05-05 14:51:48 <survic> a wallet?
957 2014-05-05 14:51:52 <dgenr8> UI challenge
958 2014-05-05 14:51:53 <survic> that's a bag of private keys.
959 2014-05-05 14:52:09 CoinHeavy has joined
960 2014-05-05 14:52:33 <tyrick> In the first Satoshi client, would the wallet allow you to easily spend an amount that wasn't some combination of previous received coins?
961 2014-05-05 14:52:49 <CoinHeavy> To store the blockchain on a separate drive from the binary, is best practice simply a symlink for ~/.bitcoin ?
962 2014-05-05 14:52:56 <survic> tyrick: of course.
963 2014-05-05 14:53:05 <survic> tyrick: that's described in the whitepaper.
964 2014-05-05 14:53:18 <tyrick> I should really reread that paper
965 2014-05-05 14:53:29 <CoinHeavy> http://nakamotoinstitute.org/bitcoin/
966 2014-05-05 14:53:31 <CoinHeavy> clean html version
967 2014-05-05 14:53:39 <tyrick> thx
968 2014-05-05 14:53:50 <sipa> dgenr8: in case of multisig or other complex scripts, it's more than just a bag of private keys
969 2014-05-05 14:53:59 <sipa> dgenr8: you also need to know how to interact with others
970 2014-05-05 14:54:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|CoinHeavy: erm, or just put the binary elsewhere
971 2014-05-05 14:54:15 <sipa> dgenr8: it's easier to see the watch-only part and the transaction construction part separately
972 2014-05-05 14:54:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|or use the -datadir option
973 2014-05-05 14:54:23 <sipa> dgenr8: so it's a bag of scripts to watch a wallet
974 2014-05-05 14:54:29 xdotcommer has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
975 2014-05-05 14:54:43 <sipa> dgenr8: and then some knowledge on how to construct transactions that are sent to those scripts (optionally)
976 2014-05-05 14:54:49 <CoinHeavy> michagogo: thanks, both good ideas
977 2014-05-05 14:55:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(I think the symlink thing also works, though)
978 2014-05-05 14:55:28 tjopper has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
979 2014-05-05 14:55:45 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
980 2014-05-05 14:55:47 <CoinHeavy> cool. your alternatives feel more robust. Iâll experiment
981 2014-05-05 14:56:04 <arjen-jonathan> sipa: I still don't quite understand: Say I have two people, A and B. Let's say that A has some money, previously sent to his pubkey. If B has A's pubkey, can A then spent this money without B finding out?
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984 2014-05-05 14:56:14 <dgenr8> sipa: sure, you need software. but also, salvagewallet works because the essence of wallet.dat is a bag of keys
985 2014-05-05 14:56:42 <arjen-jonathan> sipa: and if so: how?
986 2014-05-05 14:56:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|arjen-jonathan: no
987 2014-05-05 14:56:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|To spend, you need the privkey
988 2014-05-05 14:57:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, sorry
989 2014-05-05 14:57:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I misread
990 2014-05-05 14:57:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If B knows that a pubkey belongs to A, then if A spends the output B can see that
991 2014-05-05 14:57:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|B can't tell where it's going, though...
992 2014-05-05 14:58:31 koolhaas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
993 2014-05-05 14:58:32 <arjen-jonathan> Oke, so how would B reliably detect this?
994 2014-05-05 14:58:42 jurov is now known as bitcoinfag
995 2014-05-05 14:58:45 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: no
996 2014-05-05 14:58:54 kermit has joined
997 2014-05-05 14:59:00 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: the point is that you don't reveal how public keys relate to identities
998 2014-05-05 14:59:18 <sipa> dgenr8: salvagewallet does not work with multisig :)
999 2014-05-05 14:59:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|arjen-jonathan: ...by watching for transactions that are signed with the pubkey
1000 2014-05-05 14:59:24 bitcoinfag has left ()
1001 2014-05-05 14:59:45 kill\switch has joined
1002 2014-05-05 14:59:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(that is, transactions spending coins sent to that pubkey or its hash)
1003 2014-05-05 15:00:24 <dgenr8> sipa: mempool is not a good place for working on transactions-in-progress
1004 2014-05-05 15:00:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No, it's not
1005 2014-05-05 15:00:44 <sipa> dgenr8: of course not
1006 2014-05-05 15:00:53 <sipa> dgenr8: the mempool only contains valid transactions
1007 2014-05-05 15:01:00 <arjen-jonathan> Oke, now we are at exactly the spot where I started out :P because this confirms how I thought it worked; sorry that I misphrased it!
1008 2014-05-05 15:01:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The mempool is valid transactions. A pool of transactions available to include in a block.
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1010 2014-05-05 15:02:09 <arjen-jonathan> michagogo|cloud: so now the question remains: how do I parse the "sent to" address from a script reliably?
1011 2014-05-05 15:02:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|arjen-jonathan: not every script has a corresponding address
1012 2014-05-05 15:02:28 smash has joined
1013 2014-05-05 15:02:33 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: is it for detecting transactions to yourself?
1014 2014-05-05 15:02:46 mpmcsweeney has joined
1015 2014-05-05 15:02:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: he said it's not a DUP HASH160 <hash> EQUALVERIFY CHECKSIG
1016 2014-05-05 15:03:02 <arjen-jonathan> no, to a pubkey that I know, but not necessarily mine.
1017 2014-05-05 15:03:15 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: may i ask why you need that?
1018 2014-05-05 15:03:24 <sipa> what are you trying to do?
1019 2014-05-05 15:03:27 <dgenr8> sipa: software does more than watch balances and needs persistent data to support those other functions
1020 2014-05-05 15:03:33 christophe has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1021 2014-05-05 15:03:33 <arjen-jonathan> michagogo|cloud: yes, because I worried that there might be other scripts that do essentially the same, but are not identical.
1022 2014-05-05 15:03:48 <dgenr8> sipa: my point is, just because situation is complex does not mean UI has to hide details
1023 2014-05-05 15:03:55 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: the wallet owner defines transactions to which output he considers payments to him
1024 2014-05-05 15:04:14 <dgenr8> I keep forgetting we have coin control now
1025 2014-05-05 15:04:23 christophe has joined
1026 2014-05-05 15:04:52 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: i still don't know what you're trying to achieve
1027 2014-05-05 15:06:24 <arjen-jonathan> I have a pubkey associated with person A, assuming I see every tx in the network, I want to detect payments from that pubkey.
1028 2014-05-05 15:06:48 <survic> why bother using BTC then?
1029 2014-05-05 15:06:52 <survic> ugh, sorry.
1030 2014-05-05 15:07:09 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: to accomplish what?
1031 2014-05-05 15:07:23 <arjen-jonathan> And I want it to be reliable: i.e. A cannot circumvent detecting it.
1032 2014-05-05 15:07:33 <arjen-jonathan> I just want to know if it's possible.
1033 2014-05-05 15:07:37 <thrownull> dgenr8: coin control?
1034 2014-05-05 15:07:47 <arjen-jonathan> I'm trying to grasp how anonymous bitcoin is.
1035 2014-05-05 15:08:01 <thrownull> arjen-jonathan: mostly not anonymous
1036 2014-05-05 15:08:05 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: bitcoin is not anonymous at all; it is pseudonymous
1037 2014-05-05 15:08:15 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: privacy relies on it being hard to link ideitites to keys
1038 2014-05-05 15:08:47 <thrownull> arjen-jonathan: it is easy to be connected to other ID (of you or your business partner), from there to another and another untill connection to you or someone who knows you is found
1039 2014-05-05 15:08:50 <arjen-jonathan> Yes, but now I happen to know the pubkey. Is all anonimity lost?
1040 2014-05-05 15:09:14 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: there is not "the" public key
1041 2014-05-05 15:09:21 <dgenr8> thrownull: when creating transactions you can see controlled outputs and select which to use
1042 2014-05-05 15:09:26 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: you're supposed to use a different key for every incoming transaction
1043 2014-05-05 15:09:37 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: otherwise knowing one key reveals all your transactions
1044 2014-05-05 15:09:44 <thrownull> dgenr8: nice, in the qt gui? in released version? I didn't test for long time
1045 2014-05-05 15:09:44 <arjen-jonathan> sipa: but money associated with the known pubkey would ned to b moved to regain anonimity
1046 2014-05-05 15:09:52 <arjen-jonathan> which would be detected
1047 2014-05-05 15:09:57 <sipa> stop using the word anonymity
1048 2014-05-05 15:09:59 <sipa> it does not exist
1049 2014-05-05 15:10:07 <sipa> all transactions are public
1050 2014-05-05 15:10:09 <dgenr8> thrownull: 0.9.0
1051 2014-05-05 15:10:11 <arjen-jonathan> *regain pseudonimity
1052 2014-05-05 15:10:15 <sipa> there is privacy though
1053 2014-05-05 15:10:40 <thrownull> you could pay from 1foobar address and no one on ther internet knows you're a dog
1054 2014-05-05 15:10:56 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: so if you paid entity E by sending coins to address A, you know that A belongs to E
1055 2014-05-05 15:11:05 <thrownull> unless they recognized addresses who given you the money (or to which you paid) and ask them from where it come
1056 2014-05-05 15:11:09 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: some time later, E will use those coins to move them elsewhere
1057 2014-05-05 15:11:21 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: when that happens, ideally, you have no idea where they're going
1058 2014-05-05 15:11:22 <thrownull> or unless you exchange to Doges like a Doge and the exchange has your ip/email/etc
1059 2014-05-05 15:11:30 <dgenr8> Not for nothing, but satoshibones is being ruthlessly double-spent by one of those autonomous agents we keep hearing about
1060 2014-05-05 15:12:15 <arjen-jonathan> sipa:but moving it cannot be done silently. He needs to use the same pubkey that was used to sent him the coins in the first place.
1061 2014-05-05 15:12:33 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: so you know the coin is being moved
1062 2014-05-05 15:12:34 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: so what?
1063 2014-05-05 15:12:36 <thrownull> arjen-jonathan: to break this connections 1) use coinjoin 2) use zerocoin when it is out and working 3) use various exchange via many transactions in big delays and using various amounts of money (e.g. not moving 2.5815 btc to A then to B then to C then do D but spread it)
1064 2014-05-05 15:12:53 <arjen-jonathan> Thanks, all I needed to know.
1065 2014-05-05 15:13:00 <thrownull> over-the-counter transactions done on private internet (darknets) and/or using alt coins can help too, arjen-jonathan
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1068 2014-05-05 15:13:09 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: you don't know whether it is moving to a different address in the same owner's wallet, or being used for payment
1069 2014-05-05 15:13:27 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1070 2014-05-05 15:13:31 <thrownull> arjen-jonathan: for darknet exchanges try #bitcoin and #anoncoin on irc2p (i2p2.de - it's like tor but better imo). though be very, very patient
1071 2014-05-05 15:13:32 <arjen-jonathan> I don't care.
1072 2014-05-05 15:14:04 <arjen-jonathan> I just wanted to know if A can move his money silently.
1073 2014-05-05 15:14:07 <sipa> all it reveals is that someone has the private key associated to that public key
1074 2014-05-05 15:14:09 <thrownull> freenode sucks for anonymity/pseudonimity and yet #bitcoin still is here primarly instead OFTC or irc2p.
1075 2014-05-05 15:14:16 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: yes
1076 2014-05-05 15:14:24 <sipa> arjen-jonathan: he can give the private key to someone else
1077 2014-05-05 15:14:31 MiningBuddy has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1078 2014-05-05 15:14:43 <sipa> (which has trust issues, but it is possible)
1079 2014-05-05 15:15:06 <sipa> or if the key belongs to a shared wallet, balance can just be transferred without moving any coins
1080 2014-05-05 15:15:10 pierreat1ork has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1081 2014-05-05 15:15:15 <dgenr8> you know ... the agents that can pay for their own compute power. a single node can only see glimpses of the crime though
1082 2014-05-05 15:16:46 <justanotheruser> What is the best way to get a set of inputs adding to value X? Make a transaction and just copy the inputs And trash the output?
1083 2014-05-05 15:17:11 <sipa> justanotheruser: run a coin selection algorithm?
1084 2014-05-05 15:17:47 <justanotheruser> sipa: isn't that what bitcoind is doing when it constructs the transaction?
1085 2014-05-05 15:17:50 <sipa> yes
1086 2014-05-05 15:18:27 <justanotheruser> So wouldn't that method work best? Or is bitcoinds coin selection algorithm not optimal?
1087 2014-05-05 15:18:35 <sipa> it's far from optimal
1088 2014-05-05 15:18:40 <sipa> but it is decent, i think
1089 2014-05-05 15:18:55 <sipa> but there's no reason why you need to use bitcoind's implementation
1090 2014-05-05 15:18:58 pierreatwork has joined
1091 2014-05-05 15:19:08 <sipa> if you just want the selection, and not an actual transaction
1092 2014-05-05 15:19:21 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1093 2014-05-05 15:19:31 davout_ has joined
1094 2014-05-05 15:19:42 <survic> justanotheruser: gavin found a nice bug in it recently where adding an input increases the fees, so it adds another input to cover the fees, so it increases the fees, and so forth.
1095 2014-05-05 15:20:10 <survic> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4082
1096 2014-05-05 15:20:30 <justanotheruser> sipa: is there a reason I shouldn't do it? Its two RPC calls and another line of code to extract the inputs
1097 2014-05-05 15:20:49 <sipa> justanotheruser: it would unnecessarily create a transaction, which costs fees...
1098 2014-05-05 15:21:16 <justanotheruser> sipa: i wouldn't broadcast it though?
1099 2014-05-05 15:21:23 <sipa> justanotheruser: yes it would
1100 2014-05-05 15:21:44 <sipa> bitcoind has no raw transaction API for doing coin selection
1101 2014-05-05 15:21:58 <justanotheruser> sipa: I could have sworn there was...
1102 2014-05-05 15:22:02 <justanotheruser> Sipa
1103 2014-05-05 15:22:13 <sipa> and if you use sendtoaddress & friends, they do output creation, coin selection, wallet commitment, validation and broadcasting
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1105 2014-05-05 15:22:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|survic: um? That should only happen if you have a ton of dust
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1108 2014-05-05 15:22:49 <justanotheruser> So the most efficient algorithm is to add up the largest outputs until I get above my desired amount?
1109 2014-05-05 15:22:52 <survic> michagogo|cloud: of course, but it's still interesting that it exists.
1110 2014-05-05 15:22:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: not necessarily
1111 2014-05-05 15:23:03 <sipa> justanotheruser: it's a bit more complex than that :)
1112 2014-05-05 15:23:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You need to decide what your goals are
1113 2014-05-05 15:23:22 <GAit> privacy vs efficiency
1114 2014-05-05 15:23:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|For example, you may want to minimize the change
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1116 2014-05-05 15:23:31 <sipa> justanotheruser: all depends on your priorities (byte size, fees, privacy, efficiency of selection, ...)
1117 2014-05-05 15:23:36 <justanotheruser> Wouldn't that optimize for tx size though?
1118 2014-05-05 15:23:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or maybe increase the change to be as close as possible to the real payment
1119 2014-05-05 15:24:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or maybe have multiple change outputs?
1120 2014-05-05 15:24:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Perhaps you'd like to suck up dust, while you're making a transaction anyway?
1121 2014-05-05 15:24:51 <GAit> i was talking with hearn about this, your wallet my learn what your most common purchases are and prepare for it with predefaults for privacy or minimal fee amount
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1123 2014-05-05 15:25:01 <GAit> s/my/may
1124 2014-05-05 15:25:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah, there's another example
1125 2014-05-05 15:25:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Basically, if you're designing such an algorithm, there are dozens and dozens of factors you may want to consider
1126 2014-05-05 15:25:50 Belxjander has joined
1127 2014-05-05 15:26:15 <GAit> it would be good to collect somewhere the various strategies
1128 2014-05-05 15:26:16 <justanotheruser> I see. Perhaps I should just copy bitcoinds algorithm
1129 2014-05-05 15:26:22 hearn has quit (Quit: hearn)
1130 2014-05-05 15:27:00 <justanotheruser> I do trust bitcoind to be more stable than what I write after all
1131 2014-05-05 15:27:01 ndak has quit (Client Quit)
1132 2014-05-05 15:27:13 <dgenr8> a random selection algorithm would have some benefits
1133 2014-05-05 15:27:42 <CoinHeavy> it doesnât look like the block reward is available from bitcoind getinfo. Is there a best practice for calculating/polling this from bitcoind? (getlastblockreward kind of thing)
1134 2014-05-05 15:28:26 <justanotheruser> BTW, is there a list anywhere of the factors one would want to consider in input selection?
1135 2014-05-05 15:29:49 <ajweiss> hey folks, has anyone had any luck reproducing the rpc close_wait bug (#3968)?
1136 2014-05-05 15:31:14 <ajweiss> i wrote a regression test that spawns a ton of clients and makes them bang on bitcoind with random kills, but i don't seem to be able to reproduce the stuck sockets
1137 2014-05-05 15:31:15 <tyrick> I just read the white paper and actually understood it. The past 2 weeks of studying bitcoin has actually paid off.
1138 2014-05-05 15:32:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: you could always start by reading BC's code and then either going with that or tweaking it it whatever
1139 2014-05-05 15:33:24 <wumpus> ajweiss: nope, never been able to reproduce it; that test sounds welcome, though!
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1144 2014-05-05 15:33:54 <justanotheruser> CoinHeavy: you could calculate the block reward based on getblockcount
1145 2014-05-05 15:34:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|CoinHeavy: yeah, that's the best way to do it
1146 2014-05-05 15:34:17 <justanotheruser> Michq
1147 2014-05-05 15:34:37 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: yeah that's a good idea.
1148 2014-05-05 15:34:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I mean, you could in theory look at blocks and see what they have in the coinbase transaction, and figure it out based on that :-P
1149 2014-05-05 15:35:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But that's annoying, and can give you a wrong number if a miner doesn't claim all they're entitled to
1150 2014-05-05 15:35:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So it's easiest to just look at the block count
1151 2014-05-05 15:35:51 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: I was going to say that, but it stops working after a hundred some years and what you just said
1152 2014-05-05 15:36:34 <tyrick> How are people, like Satoshi, putting messages in tx?
1153 2014-05-05 15:37:05 <belcher> tyrick satoshi's message is in the coinbase transaction
1154 2014-05-05 15:37:10 <belcher> since that isnt checked
1155 2014-05-05 15:37:23 yubrew has joined
1156 2014-05-05 15:37:34 <justanotheruser> tyrick: also, users spam the network with opreturn
1157 2014-05-05 15:37:45 GMP has joined
1158 2014-05-05 15:37:52 <survic> belcher: part of the coinbase is now
1159 2014-05-05 15:38:04 Subo1977_ has joined
1160 2014-05-05 15:38:11 <belcher> well yeah it checks the subsidy isnt more than 50btc + fees and stuff like that
1161 2014-05-05 15:38:17 rottenchris has joined
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1163 2014-05-05 15:38:44 <survic> belcher: BIP0034
1164 2014-05-05 15:39:02 <belcher> ill read
1165 2014-05-05 15:39:05 <survic> the block height is also in the coinbase, and is checked for validity.
1166 2014-05-05 15:39:31 <tyrick> op_return?
1167 2014-05-05 15:39:49 <survic> tyrick: returns false.
1168 2014-05-05 15:40:21 <tyrick> I am looking at valentine's day messages. Hm, I supposed that don't see how that would enable a coded message
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1170 2014-05-05 15:40:23 <survic> that is, it can never be spent. we can not bother storing it in the UXTO because it will never be spent.
1171 2014-05-05 15:40:24 <justanotheruser> What did adding the block height to the coin base do? Is it for SPV?
1172 2014-05-05 15:40:45 <survic> justanotheruser: makes them all unique for starters.
1173 2014-05-05 15:40:56 <tyrick> I see. But what piece of the tx is carrying the info?
1174 2014-05-05 15:41:07 <tyrick> and why is it not hashed?
1175 2014-05-05 15:41:19 <justanotheruser> survic: they already have the hash of the previous block which makes it unique?
1176 2014-05-05 15:41:26 <survic> justanotheruser: also helps you if you get a block with no parent or child to link it to, you know roughly where it goes.
1177 2014-05-05 15:41:36 <ajweiss> wumpus: ok cool, i think i've reproduced it in 0.9.0.. i'm gonna bisect to find the exact commit that fixes it, clean up the test, get it submitted and report it in the issue tracker
1178 2014-05-05 15:42:01 <survic> justanotheruser: the coinbase transaction needs a unique TXID. some legacy ones are duplicate, which can't happen now.
1179 2014-05-05 15:42:17 Zarutian has joined
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1181 2014-05-05 15:42:21 <justanotheruser> Ah
1182 2014-05-05 15:42:47 <survic> I think the unique TXID coinbases are just invalid now, not sure if they can be spent or not.
1183 2014-05-05 15:42:54 <survic> *non unique
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1187 2014-05-05 15:44:10 <wumpus> ajweiss: great!
1188 2014-05-05 15:44:56 <tyrick> looks like 19 ASCII characters is the max length of the message you can embed?
1189 2014-05-05 15:45:51 <survic> it's meant to be a hash, not a "message"
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1191 2014-05-05 15:46:21 <survic> the block chain isn't your private messaging system. OP_RETURN has a large impact for it's cost.
1192 2014-05-05 15:47:41 <tyrick> private messaging system?
1193 2014-05-05 15:48:04 <tyrick> the private keys?
1194 2014-05-05 15:48:13 arjen-jonathan has joined
1195 2014-05-05 15:48:39 <survic> no, OP_RETURN. it's not made for storing text.
1196 2014-05-05 15:49:18 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1197 2014-05-05 15:49:24 <tyrick> Is that where messages are being stored?
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1201 2014-05-05 15:49:42 <sipa> which messages?
1202 2014-05-05 15:50:00 chill has joined
1203 2014-05-05 15:50:00 <tyrick> http://bitcoinstrings.com/blk00115.txt
1204 2014-05-05 15:50:06 <chill> howdy
1205 2014-05-05 15:50:10 <survic> the block chain doesn't store messages. some people shove them in, but they're not meant to be there.
1206 2014-05-05 15:50:24 <tyrick> I am reading all this from http://www.righto.com/2014/02/ascii-bernanke-wikileaks-photographs.html
1207 2014-05-05 15:50:36 <tyrick> survic: I am not asking if they are meant to be in there or not
1208 2014-05-05 15:50:49 <tyrick> survic: I am trying to understand how they got in there
1209 2014-05-05 15:50:53 <sipa> there are various ways to do so
1210 2014-05-05 15:50:54 <kinlo> survic: most of those are from coinbase, not from OP_RETURN
1211 2014-05-05 15:51:05 debiantoruser has joined
1212 2014-05-05 15:51:06 <kinlo> most pools mark their blocks
1213 2014-05-05 15:51:09 <survic> coinbase messages are fine, they're just used to advertise pools.
1214 2014-05-05 15:51:18 <survic> or quote the bible.
1215 2014-05-05 15:51:19 <sipa> most just use fake pubkey hashes
1216 2014-05-05 15:51:26 <sipa> burning coins
1217 2014-05-05 15:51:50 <tyrick> But wouldn't you need to 'dehash' the key to retrieve the original message?
1218 2014-05-05 15:51:56 <sipa> no
1219 2014-05-05 15:52:04 <survic> hex encoded ascii.
1220 2014-05-05 15:52:12 <sipa> the point is that these are not actual hashes
1221 2014-05-05 15:52:14 <tyrick> oh, wow. I see
1222 2014-05-05 15:52:19 <sipa> they are messages
1223 2014-05-05 15:52:20 <tyrick> so it isn't a real address at all
1224 2014-05-05 15:52:25 <sipa> indeed
1225 2014-05-05 15:52:27 <chill> Can anyone recommend some reading to learn about best practices for integrating bitcoin with a web application (nodejs)?
1226 2014-05-05 15:52:34 <kinlo> depends on your definition of a real address :p
1227 2014-05-05 15:52:36 <survic> nope. the funds can't be spent and just clog up the UXTO
1228 2014-05-05 15:52:45 <tyrick> weird
1229 2014-05-05 15:52:47 <sipa> most likely :)
1230 2014-05-05 15:53:04 <kinlo> should you be able to find a private key that generates a public key that happens to hash to a value that is exactly those letters...
1231 2014-05-05 15:53:19 <survic> then we have bigger problems than the UXTO set.
1232 2014-05-05 15:53:28 <kinlo> so theoretically it is possible, but chances are much higher that I'd win the lottery every week from now on
1233 2014-05-05 15:53:29 <archrs> lol!
1234 2014-05-05 15:53:44 koolhaas has joined
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1240 2014-05-05 15:57:47 <chill> Has anyone had experience setting up a VPS with bitcoind? Is that what I should be doing if I want my web application to send/receive funds programmatically?
1241 2014-05-05 15:58:41 <justanotheruser> chill: are you running a VPS service?
1242 2014-05-05 15:58:48 <ajweiss> chill: look into bitcore
1243 2014-05-05 15:58:48 <justanotheruser> Or paying for one
1244 2014-05-05 15:58:54 nsh has joined
1245 2014-05-05 15:59:15 <sipa> ajweiss: what does bitcore have to do with bitcoind?
1246 2014-05-05 15:59:35 <justanotheruser> chill: bitcore or just good old fashioned RPC
1247 2014-05-05 16:00:09 <chill> RPC to what?
1248 2014-05-05 16:00:16 <ajweiss> he was asking questions about building webapps with bitcoin with node.js and all the rest... it would make more sense to use something like bitcore than to run bitcoind (other than to have a few running to support the network)
1249 2014-05-05 16:00:17 <chill> a bitcoind instance that I set up on a server?
1250 2014-05-05 16:00:37 <chill> ok, i'll check out bitcore
1251 2014-05-05 16:00:38 <chill> thanks
1252 2014-05-05 16:00:41 <justanotheruser> chill: ya
1253 2014-05-05 16:01:17 <chill> i've been having a hard time finding non-sketchy looking information about best practices for integrating bitcoin with web apps
1254 2014-05-05 16:01:19 Belxjander has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1255 2014-05-05 16:02:07 <archrs> "best practices"
1256 2014-05-05 16:02:50 <chill> right... that's just a jargony way of saying... what's the recommended way of doing this stuff
1257 2014-05-05 16:03:07 <ajweiss> chill: ultimately what are you looking to do?
1258 2014-05-05 16:03:12 <archrs> "Monitoring blocks and transactions. For this example you need a running bitcoind instance with RPC enabled."
1259 2014-05-05 16:03:15 <archrs> says bitcore
1260 2014-05-05 16:03:29 <chill> receive bitcoins as "withdrawals" to unique addresses per user
1261 2014-05-05 16:03:29 <archrs> still need bitcoind
1262 2014-05-05 16:03:36 <chill> errr "deposits"
1263 2014-05-05 16:03:40 <chill> and then the opposite
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1265 2014-05-05 16:03:51 <chill> as securely / sanely as possible
1266 2014-05-05 16:03:51 <archrs> you've seen django bitcoin, rite? that's mostly serverside
1267 2014-05-05 16:03:59 <chill> i use nodejs
1268 2014-05-05 16:04:13 <chill> for this web app
1269 2014-05-05 16:04:23 <chill> and have very limited experience with django/python
1270 2014-05-05 16:04:37 <archrs> well
1271 2014-05-05 16:04:41 <archrs> client side
1272 2014-05-05 16:04:50 <archrs> you're going to have to open your bitcoin up if you try to use it like bitcore
1273 2014-05-05 16:04:57 <archrs> and that's not desired, i'm guessing
1274 2014-05-05 16:05:00 <chill> right
1275 2014-05-05 16:05:07 <archrs> so an api that interfaces w/ rpc
1276 2014-05-05 16:05:11 <chill> ideally it'd not be accessible remotely
1277 2014-05-05 16:05:12 <archrs> seems the node way to go
1278 2014-05-05 16:05:14 <chill> but via an SSH tunnel
1279 2014-05-05 16:05:21 <archrs> well
1280 2014-05-05 16:05:22 <chill> from the web app server
1281 2014-05-05 16:05:23 <archrs> ok
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1283 2014-05-05 16:05:40 <chill> i don't need or want the client side to do anything with bitcoin directly
1284 2014-05-05 16:05:46 <archrs> then
1285 2014-05-05 16:05:47 <archrs> use an api
1286 2014-05-05 16:06:00 <chill> what does that mean
1287 2014-05-05 16:06:04 <chill> an API for what
1288 2014-05-05 16:06:08 <archrs> make an api
1289 2014-05-05 16:06:12 <chill> bitcoind, bitcore, something else?
1290 2014-05-05 16:06:14 <archrs> and make ur api on the serverside use your vpn'd bitcoin rpcd
1291 2014-05-05 16:06:19 <chill> the web app is already done
1292 2014-05-05 16:06:20 <archrs> node.js api
1293 2014-05-05 16:06:29 <chill> i am merely asking about the bitcoin integration itself
1294 2014-05-05 16:06:56 <archrs> you dont want to code? >:)
1295 2014-05-05 16:07:19 <chill> if necessary sure... but i'd imagine I'd screw something else if I tried to write wallet software
1296 2014-05-05 16:07:28 <chill> this has to be a solved problem
1297 2014-05-05 16:07:30 <survic> bitcoind isn't really suitable on it's own for integration.
1298 2014-05-05 16:07:37 <archrs> you dont need to write wallet
1299 2014-05-05 16:07:42 <archrs> you need to USE rpc to access the wallet
1300 2014-05-05 16:08:04 Belxjander has joined
1301 2014-05-05 16:08:05 <chill> right
1302 2014-05-05 16:08:15 <survic> the built in wallet won't serve you for more than a couple of users. it doesn't scale.
1303 2014-05-05 16:08:18 <chill> survic, if not bitcoind, then what should I use?
1304 2014-05-05 16:08:19 tyrick has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
1305 2014-05-05 16:08:24 <chill> ok
1306 2014-05-05 16:08:30 <chill> what should I use then?
1307 2014-05-05 16:08:33 <archrs> web browser > node js client > node js api > node js server > bitcoind RPC interface > bitcoind wallet
1308 2014-05-05 16:08:39 <survic> there'a django-bitcoin, which is a wallet system on top of bitcoind.
1309 2014-05-05 16:08:48 <survic> it's used and developed by localbitcoins.
1310 2014-05-05 16:08:54 <chill> i see
1311 2014-05-05 16:09:09 <chill> and I assume since it has django in the name , it is written in python?
1312 2014-05-05 16:09:13 <survic> that way you're not slamming bitcoind with requests and having it lag out.
1313 2014-05-05 16:09:16 <survic> that's corect
1314 2014-05-05 16:09:33 <chill> I'll check it out
1315 2014-05-05 16:09:35 <chill> thanks
1316 2014-05-05 16:09:51 <survic> https://github.com/kangasbros/django-bitcoin
1317 2014-05-05 16:09:56 <archrs> that's the one
1318 2014-05-05 16:10:10 <chill> great, thanks
1319 2014-05-05 16:10:14 <archrs> but
1320 2014-05-05 16:10:17 <archrs> it's not a python wallet
1321 2014-05-05 16:10:21 <archrs> it's another interface to bitcoin rpc
1322 2014-05-05 16:10:26 Belxjander has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1323 2014-05-05 16:10:32 <archrs> just fyi
1324 2014-05-05 16:10:41 <chill> right, the interface itself is written as an abstraction / interface to bitcoind, right?
1325 2014-05-05 16:10:47 <survic> I was given the impression that it was an external wallet
1326 2014-05-05 16:11:03 <survic> I could very much have been mistaken
1327 2014-05-05 16:11:06 <archrs> well ok survic
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1329 2014-05-05 16:11:20 <archrs> youre not mistaken
1330 2014-05-05 16:11:29 <archrs> imo
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1333 2014-05-05 16:12:12 <chill> i also found https://github.com/freewil/node-bitcoin
1334 2014-05-05 16:12:19 <chill> which is a node interface to bitcoind it looks like
1335 2014-05-05 16:12:25 CoinHeavy_ has joined
1336 2014-05-05 16:12:33 <chill> in either case it looks like I have to set up and manage a bitcoind instance
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1339 2014-05-05 16:12:54 <survic> indeed. using an external service like blockchain.info's API is risky.
1340 2014-05-05 16:13:02 <chill> gotcha
1341 2014-05-05 16:13:15 <chill> so I'll definitely want to / have to download the full blockchain with bitcoind?
1342 2014-05-05 16:13:18 <maraoz> thoughts on this stealth address implementation via BIP32 idea? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/24s8hr/bitcoin_extended_addresses_merge_avoidance_and/cha4nqw
1343 2014-05-05 16:13:25 <survic> it's down more often than not, and it doesn't seem to be very reliable in it's information even when it is up.
1344 2014-05-05 16:13:54 <maaku> guys take this to #bitcoin -- keep the channel clear for developers
1345 2014-05-05 16:14:14 <survic> chill: you'll want to download the bootstrap.dat file and the bitcoin daemon to get started quickly. 20GB of space for the blockchain, at least 1GB of memory, an extra 20GB for temp storage if you use the bootstrap.
1346 2014-05-05 16:14:22 <survic> chill: lets take this to #bitcoin.
1347 2014-05-05 16:14:38 mantas322 has left ()
1348 2014-05-05 16:15:03 <chill> survic: And I thought this channel was for talking about development relating to bitcoin apps too
1349 2014-05-05 16:15:09 <chill> survic: *shrug*
1350 2014-05-05 16:15:11 <survic> you thought wrong.
1351 2014-05-05 16:16:01 tyrick has joined
1352 2014-05-05 16:16:06 <archrs> and your bitcoind w/ need to have transaction listing enabled
1353 2014-05-05 16:16:17 hearn has joined
1354 2014-05-05 16:16:29 <tyrick> In https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script, it says that the sender must provide "a public key that, when hashed, yields destination address D embedded in the script"
1355 2014-05-05 16:16:36 <tyrick> If so, it sounds more difficult than mining a block
1356 2014-05-05 16:17:18 <survic> tyrick: very much so if they don't have the private key. significantly more difficult.
1357 2014-05-05 16:18:54 hotsyk has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
1358 2014-05-05 16:20:11 <tyrick> How does the private key help?
1359 2014-05-05 16:20:21 chill has left ("Leaving")
1360 2014-05-05 16:21:09 <survic> well, if you own the address coins were sent to, you can use your private key to make the public key, and sign for the output with the script asking for H(public).
1361 2014-05-05 16:21:52 <survic> proving that you own it. if you don't own it you need to brute force the keys with a probability of 2^160 to one of getting it each time.
1362 2014-05-05 16:21:53 pierreatwork has joined
1363 2014-05-05 16:22:43 <tyrick> Oh sure! but this says the SENDER must provide the public key?
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1366 2014-05-05 16:23:53 <survic> shouldn't do. the recipient must prove ownership, the sender has nothing to do with the output after it has been created. there's nothing they can do to recall it or modify it after that point (and it has confirmed).
1367 2014-05-05 16:24:24 <tyrick> typo in doc?
1368 2014-05-05 16:24:53 <survic> oh I misread
1369 2014-05-05 16:25:03 Milanito has joined
1370 2014-05-05 16:25:12 <maraoz> tyrick: the sender must provide the public key hash (i.e. the address)
1371 2014-05-05 16:25:16 <survic> to spend an output, you need to provide the public key that matches H(public), sure.
1372 2014-05-05 16:25:42 <survic> the sender just needs to provide H(public), they usually don't even know the public key of the address they are sending to.
1373 2014-05-05 16:25:42 <tyrick> Oh, I misread it too then
1374 2014-05-05 16:26:03 <tyrick> I was wondering. I never know it >.>
1375 2014-05-05 16:26:11 <tyrick> That line could be cleaned up. It is confusing
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1377 2014-05-05 16:26:37 <survic> the public key of a bitcoin address is only revealed when you spend (it's part of the transaction itself).
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1379 2014-05-05 16:27:35 <tyrick> Oh! I didn't know that. I thought the network only cared about H(public)
1380 2014-05-05 16:28:25 <survic> it only cares about it until it's time to spend. without the public key it would be impossible to verify the signature matches
1381 2014-05-05 16:28:30 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
1382 2014-05-05 16:28:39 <tyrick> I see
1383 2014-05-05 16:29:10 <survic> (there's actually ways around that, but we don't use them for anything except for signed messages. given a plaintext and a signature we can recover the public key in some cases)
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1399 2014-05-05 16:43:12 <mr_burdell> BIP0070 question: if I try to validate a certificate, am I only validating that it's signed, or validate that it matches the server domain?
1400 2014-05-05 16:43:23 <mr_burdell> when I get an email signed cert, it won't match anything
1401 2014-05-05 16:43:26 Blxjander has joined
1402 2014-05-05 16:43:43 <mr_burdell> so is the idea to display the CN or SAN to the user and let them determine if it's correct?
1403 2014-05-05 16:44:14 Belxjander has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1404 2014-05-05 16:44:16 <lianj> mr_burdell: don't match the server domain.
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1407 2014-05-05 16:44:37 <lianj> the cn name is just for displaying it
1408 2014-05-05 16:44:38 <mr_burdell> so the only check is to verify that it's signed by a CA verified cert?
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1412 2014-05-05 16:44:48 <lianj> mr_burdell: right
1413 2014-05-05 16:45:40 <mr_burdell> also, it doesn't appear that a payment request with no expiration is defined in the BIP
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1415 2014-05-05 16:45:48 <mr_burdell> only in the protobuf spec
1416 2014-05-05 16:46:34 <lianj> yes. and?
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1418 2014-05-05 16:46:46 <hearn> mr_burdell: what wallet/site are you implementing the spec for?
1419 2014-05-05 16:47:06 <mr_burdell> electrum
1420 2014-05-05 16:47:13 <hearn> ah yeah, sorry, you told me that
1421 2014-05-05 16:47:15 <hearn> my apologies
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1423 2014-05-05 16:47:40 <hearn> mr_burdell: you canât assume you got a payment request from a website - e.g. the user might have opened a file they obtained elsewhere. so you canât match the server name normally
1424 2014-05-05 16:47:41 <mr_burdell> it appears that python takes an undefined variable from the protobuf as 0
1425 2014-05-05 16:48:15 <hearn> if itâs an optional field, reading it yields the default value for that type
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1427 2014-05-05 16:48:18 <mr_burdell> hmmm... I was assuming it would always come from a bitcoin: URI, which would have a https URL in it
1428 2014-05-05 16:48:29 <hearn> eg âoptional int32 foo = 1;â proto.get_foo() == 0
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1431 2014-05-05 16:48:37 <hearn> mr_burdell: no. payment requests are just files
1432 2014-05-05 16:48:43 <hearn> they can (and will) come from anywhere
1433 2014-05-05 16:49:02 CoinHeavy has quit (Quit: CoinHeavy)
1434 2014-05-05 16:49:09 <hearn> consider the case of someone who attaches a payment request to an email, or sends it via a chat program, or makes it available via mDNS/bonjour
1435 2014-05-05 16:49:11 <mr_burdell> and it's just a protobuf encoded file?
1436 2014-05-05 16:49:15 <hearn> yes
1437 2014-05-05 16:49:16 domiwoe_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1438 2014-05-05 16:49:34 <hearn> triggering a fetch via a URI is super convenient for the common case where youâre buying something online
1439 2014-05-05 16:49:36 <mr_burdell> hmmm... well, that definitely isn't implemented on my side yet... but I'll work on it
1440 2014-05-05 16:49:53 <hearn> but the vision is much larger - people should be able to use it too. btw, would appreciate your feedback on this article i wrote: https://medium.com/p/cb2f81962c1b
1441 2014-05-05 16:49:59 smash has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1443 2014-05-05 16:50:08 <hearn> itâs about stealth addresses in BIP70 and talks at the end for how I want to make person to person payments work really well
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1449 2014-05-05 16:52:33 <mr_burdell> ok... I'll read through it
1450 2014-05-05 16:52:48 <mr_burdell> although pretty sure stealth addresses won't work in electrum assuming I understand them right
1451 2014-05-05 16:53:01 <mr_burdell> since you'd have to give the server your secret part
1452 2014-05-05 16:53:43 <hearn> they would with what i propose in the article
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1463 2014-05-05 17:01:44 <Will> If I wanted to begin reading and understanding the entire source code, how long do you guys think this would take and where would you recommend I start?
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1465 2014-05-05 17:02:11 <justanotheruser> Will: in the process of doing the same. Try starting in bitcoind.cpp
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1468 2014-05-05 17:04:51 <mr_burdell> hearn: would the idea be that the payment message would contain any specific address so the user would know which address to look for?
1469 2014-05-05 17:05:57 <mr_burdell> also, I'm still unclear on if transactions should be broadcast by the sender, however in P2P payments, where it could take longer periods of time between sending the payment message and the user receiving it, I think it makes sense for the sender to broadcast to the network
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1471 2014-05-05 17:07:22 <mr_burdell> I think you could get these guys to implement a service that does what you're proposing: https://onename.io/
1472 2014-05-05 17:07:26 <mr_burdell> they already do half of it
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1474 2014-05-05 17:10:45 <hearn> mr_burdell: if thereâs a submit URL then yes
1475 2014-05-05 17:10:47 <ajweiss> is there a specific reason why protobufs are used in bip70 instead of something like json-rpc?
1476 2014-05-05 17:10:54 <hearn> i mean, sorry, no :) if thereâs a submit URL submit via that and donât broadcast
1477 2014-05-05 17:10:57 <hearn> if there isnât, broadcast
1478 2014-05-05 17:11:11 <hearn> mr_burdell: the idea is the Payment message contains the data that stealth address usage currently stuffs into an OP_RETURN output.
1479 2014-05-05 17:11:37 <hearn> mr_burdell: yeah a white pages like that is the sort of thing i have in mind. but more decentralised.
1480 2014-05-05 17:12:09 <mr_burdell> their system uses namecoin for the data...
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1482 2014-05-05 17:13:21 <mr_burdell> I don't like not broadcasting the transaction though... because if a payment processor responds with something that they don't like about the transaction and then you go send them a second one, they still have a valid signed transaction they could broadcast
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1485 2014-05-05 17:13:48 <mr_burdell> so in that case you'd have to ensure you double spent any outputs on the second transaction
1486 2014-05-05 17:14:03 <mr_burdell> to invalidate the first
1487 2014-05-05 17:14:34 <mr_burdell> and in the case of p2p, if the transaction won't be broadcasted for a day, you might accidentally invalidate it before they can broadcast it
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1490 2014-05-05 17:17:26 <_biO_> does "cryptographically unique" make any sense when describing bitcoin? could be an excuse to use "cubits" instead of "bits" (yes, I'm a huge BSG fan) :P
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1493 2014-05-05 17:18:39 <maaku> _biO_: i don't know what cryptographically unique means
1494 2014-05-05 17:18:44 <_biO_> me neither!
1495 2014-05-05 17:18:45 <_biO_> :D
1496 2014-05-05 17:18:56 <_biO_> well i figured every bitcoin is unique
1497 2014-05-05 17:18:59 <_biO_> every satoshi really
1498 2014-05-05 17:19:06 <petertodd> hearn: if you are going to assume payment protocol support and a semi-reliable store-and-forward network just reuse a pubkey from a txin, mix it with H(txin.outpoint) to ensure uniqueness, and transmit that nonce/tx info to the payee via out-of-band. It's just as reliable as op-return stealth in terms of "something failed, lets recover the funds", although of course the effort to recover said funds in the worst case is higher. (note that this was ...
1499 2014-05-05 17:19:12 <_biO_> and that's ensured through cryptography
1500 2014-05-05 17:19:12 <petertodd> ... my original design after Amir and I decided we wouldn't implement something without worst-case atomic fund recovery)
1501 2014-05-05 17:20:01 <_biO_> hence "cryptographically unique bits" or cubits
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1503 2014-05-05 17:20:12 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I'm unsure about that numblocksofpeers... there really isn't a good way to indicate in the output "This figure is not authenticated in any way and you shouldn't depend on it for anythingâ it can display complete rubbish, and troublemakers have screwed with it in the past."
1504 2014-05-05 17:20:23 <petertodd> hearn: er, I mean, what you designed was Amir and I's thoughts - he was thinking bitmessage etc.
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1512 2014-05-05 17:22:23 <hearn> bitmessage is the wrong design for this
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1515 2014-05-05 17:22:41 <sipa> Will: have a goal; choose a particular thing you want to change
1516 2014-05-05 17:22:53 <sipa> Will: nothing teaches you a codebase as well as trying to tinker with it
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1521 2014-05-05 17:23:22 <petertodd> hearn: huh? that's not my point
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1532 2014-05-05 17:25:32 <hearn> your point appears to be that you considered an out of band design but discarded it - yes, i know. you said that in your email. so what?
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1535 2014-05-05 17:26:29 <petertodd> hearn: my point is you don't need an out-of-band design for worst-case fund recovery - efficient fund-recovery can use an out-of-band mechanism for the common case
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1542 2014-05-05 17:34:02 <wumpus> gmaxwell: right, I just want the same information available in the RPC interface in the GUI
1543 2014-05-05 17:34:15 <wumpus> gmaxwell: if we don't want it on the RPC interface, I'd want to remove it from the GUI too
1544 2014-05-05 17:35:39 <wumpus> gmaxwell: (which isn't too much of an issue as the progress display uses the progress estimate)
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1546 2014-05-05 17:37:04 <gmaxwell> I don't think it's that terribly useful in either (now that we have the progress estimate). Getpeerinfo gives the per peer raw values, which are more useful.
1547 2014-05-05 17:37:25 <wumpus> ok, agreed, let's just remove it then
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1573 2014-05-05 18:08:50 <sipa> gmaxwell, wumpus: ACK
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1577 2014-05-05 18:10:29 <gmaxwell> Hm. Is there any way in the protocol to update that number? Alsoâ is there a way to get the peer's network time?
1578 2014-05-05 18:10:39 <gmaxwell> (er after the connection is up)
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1580 2014-05-05 18:11:13 <sipa> gmaxwell: nope, it's just height at connect time
1581 2014-05-05 18:11:24 <sipa> network time.. same thing i think
1582 2014-05-05 18:11:49 <survic> gmaxwell: wouldn't being able to know the peers clock be an issue for Tor clients?
1583 2014-05-05 18:12:19 <survic> oh network time. time connected to the peer?
1584 2014-05-05 18:12:51 <sipa> network time is your local clock adjusted by the median difference measured between your time and your peer's
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1586 2014-05-05 18:13:24 <survic> got it
1587 2014-05-05 18:13:50 <gmaxwell> survic: Bitcoin needs you to have a roughly accurate clock (well, the needed part is pretty rough, but it cannot be entirely wrong). It's only communicated to 1 second precision, however.
1588 2014-05-05 18:14:04 <sipa> and it can easily be minutes off
1589 2014-05-05 18:14:12 <sipa> *may
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1591 2014-05-05 18:15:22 <survic> I was thinking you could compare skews between IPv4/v6 clients and hidden services. matching skews would idenfity nodes as being the same just listening on the ip / hidden service interfaces.
1592 2014-05-05 18:15:26 <gmaxwell> We probably should have specified that ping messages should carry the time and height, oh well.
1593 2014-05-05 18:15:48 <survic> thinking more a) it doesn't really matter if you can do that b) the memory pool can be more exposing of the same thing
1594 2014-05-05 18:15:55 <gmaxwell> survic: you can tell a dual attached host is the same in many ways. Don't dual attack if you expect to keep the HS private.
1595 2014-05-05 18:15:59 <gmaxwell> right.
1596 2014-05-05 18:16:06 <gmaxwell> s/attack/attach/
1597 2014-05-05 18:17:18 <survic> I don't imagine there's many dual or tri stack nodes either
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1607 2014-05-05 18:21:38 <Someguy123> hey guys, do you know if there's a web or windows version of BitID yet? I'm going to be adding BitID support to a few sites that I maintain
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1623 2014-05-05 18:31:08 <survic> belcher: that would vary a lot between even just ages, let alone countries
1624 2014-05-05 18:31:34 <donvino> survic: wrong channel i suppose
1625 2014-05-05 18:31:38 <belcher> (i havent spoken in this chan in hours)
1626 2014-05-05 18:31:45 <belcher> oh yeah, what i said in #bitcoin
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1667 2014-05-05 19:15:23 <tyrick> I just beat my coworker in pingpong!
1668 2014-05-05 19:15:39 <tyrick> Oh this isn't #i-beat-my-coworker-in-pingpong
1669 2014-05-05 19:15:55 <deego> tyrick: woot! :)
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1737 2014-05-05 20:11:46 <justanotheruser> So what are the biggest flaws in the input selection algorithm?
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1740 2014-05-05 20:12:43 <hearn> justanotheruser: you mean the coin selector?
1741 2014-05-05 20:13:02 <hearn> justanotheruser: it works well enough for most users. it has some degenerate edge cases where it has poor complexity iirc
1742 2014-05-05 20:13:05 <justanotheruser> hearn: yes
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1744 2014-05-05 20:13:18 <hearn> justanotheruser: i think it doesnât always find optimal solutions. a âgoodâ one would probably require a constraint solver or something wacky
1745 2014-05-05 20:13:26 <gmaxwell> It only attempts a single strategy, it also wasn't written anticipating address reuse and needlessly degrades privacy in the face of reuse.
1746 2014-05-05 20:14:24 <justanotheruser> hearn: what is a good solution? One that retains privacy and makes the transaction small?
1747 2014-05-05 20:14:29 <gmaxwell> hearn: optimal solution for the current problem is computationally hard. The current one almost always gives a reasonable result for its current objective, but the objective is kinda dumb (minimize change)... making change a useful value is more interesting.
1748 2014-05-05 20:14:54 <hearn> yeah
1749 2014-05-05 20:15:00 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: making transactions small may not be a good goal in any case, e.g. making today's transaction small at the expense of making future ones larger is often not a win.
1750 2014-05-05 20:15:21 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: is changeOutput = otherOutput the useful value?
1751 2014-05-05 20:15:25 <hearn> justanotheruser: crafting transactions is a subtle area with lots of scope for cleverness. e.g. see merge avoidance for ideas of what can be done with a bit more flexibility in the protocol
1752 2014-05-05 20:16:03 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1753 2014-05-05 20:16:04 <gmaxwell> Yes, I think trying to make the outputs similar in valueâ even, if the values are large, adding two change outputs to do soâ would be a better objective.
1754 2014-05-05 20:16:26 <gmaxwell> (because the output value in your transaction is an estimate of your future output values)
1755 2014-05-05 20:17:28 <hearn> thereâs also performance to consider. iâm not sure what demographic is the primary user of the bitcoin core wallet these days
1756 2014-05-05 20:17:32 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1757 2014-05-05 20:17:36 <justanotheruser> hearn: merge avoidance?
1758 2014-05-05 20:17:39 <hearn> desktop users still? servers? probably various web servers
1759 2014-05-05 20:17:45 <hearn> so there performance with huge wallets may be a big deal
1760 2014-05-05 20:17:57 sytse has joined
1761 2014-05-05 20:17:58 <gmaxwell> hearn: most 'webservers' use commercial services like coinbase and bitstamp.
1762 2014-05-05 20:18:03 <hearn> justanotheruser: https://medium.com/bitcoin-banter/7f95a386692f
1763 2014-05-05 20:18:12 <gmaxwell> er s/bitstamp/blockchain/ ... autotyping.
1764 2014-05-05 20:18:19 <justanotheruser> So what is the time complexity of the current algorithm?
1765 2014-05-05 20:18:41 <justanotheruser> O(n^2)?
1766 2014-05-05 20:18:42 <hearn> gmaxwell: yes but i was pondering the breakdown for Core specifically, not âwhat wallets do all web servers useâ
1767 2014-05-05 20:18:49 <gmaxwell> (in any case the current selection algorithim is fast, though if it needs to add fees it has the ecdsa signature in the loop which is just idiotic.)
1768 2014-05-05 20:19:03 nsh_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1769 2014-05-05 20:19:22 <hearn> i thought âcore makes transactions super slowly with big walletsâ was a real problem?
1770 2014-05-05 20:19:27 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: it's O(N).
1771 2014-05-05 20:19:27 <hearn> iâm sure iâve seen it be reported
1772 2014-05-05 20:19:33 nsh_ has joined
1773 2014-05-05 20:19:49 <gmaxwell> hearn: You've seen it reported but the cause of that wasn't what you think it is.
1774 2014-05-05 20:19:55 <hearn> ah
1775 2014-05-05 20:19:59 Eagle[TM] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1776 2014-05-05 20:20:13 <gmaxwell> (that was due to the factorial complexity in resolving if unconfirmed change had entirely confirmed parents, and that should be fixed now)
1777 2014-05-05 20:20:42 phoenix54 has joined
1778 2014-05-05 20:21:07 davispuh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1779 2014-05-05 20:21:13 <hearn> justanotheruser: are you looking for any tasks in general?
1780 2014-05-05 20:21:18 <hearn> or you want to do something specifically with the coin selector
1781 2014-05-05 20:21:26 stuntkite has quit ()
1782 2014-05-05 20:21:41 <jouke> What is considered to be a big wallet?
1783 2014-05-05 20:21:44 <tyrick> hearn: I don't understand the issue with change outputs?
1784 2014-05-05 20:21:57 <justanotheruser> hearn: no, I was just told it wasn't very good and I want to copy the coin selection code since coin selection isn't an RPC call
1785 2014-05-05 20:22:05 <justanotheruser> Lol RPCC
1786 2014-05-05 20:22:12 <tyrick> In the scenario, the bar tender learns a min balance via a tx, but really, address are public
1787 2014-05-05 20:22:23 luke-jr__ has joined
1788 2014-05-05 20:22:25 <tyrick> addresses are public and the balance can be seen anytime*
1789 2014-05-05 20:22:35 <hearn> tyrick: that article assumes no address reuse
1790 2014-05-05 20:22:44 <hearn> tyrick: so you canât link change outputs together
1791 2014-05-05 20:22:45 <tyrick> gotcha
1792 2014-05-05 20:23:07 coingenuity has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1793 2014-05-05 20:23:09 <hearn> of course not reusing addresse is a whole other barrel of lauhs
1794 2014-05-05 20:23:11 <hearn> laughs
1795 2014-05-05 20:23:27 <hearn> ugh my keyboard. sorry :)
1796 2014-05-05 20:23:54 RoboTeddy has joined
1797 2014-05-05 20:24:03 <hearn> justanotheruser: i think if we made a list of parts of the code that needed improvement, coin selection would not rank especially high right now. so not sure who told you that or what they were thinking of.
1798 2014-05-05 20:24:34 btcdevq has joined
1799 2014-05-05 20:25:00 <btcdevq> Hi, I was wondering if anyone could point me toward any documentation for building bitcoin-qt for windows using linux and mingw... thanks!
1800 2014-05-05 20:25:20 luke-jr__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1801 2014-05-05 20:25:26 <justanotheruser> On another note, are there any plans for a reference SPV client?
1802 2014-05-05 20:25:30 <btcdevq> i have a windows machine available, but since i use linux i'd like to streamline all my builds and do them in one place
1803 2014-05-05 20:25:47 <hearn> justanotheruser: you mean upgrading bitcoin core to support SPV? or a different client? today bitcoinj is pretty much the only SPV client anyone uses.
1804 2014-05-05 20:25:51 <hearn> justanotheruser: so that makes it the reference i guess
1805 2014-05-05 20:26:05 <gmaxwell> I think the coin selection in bitcoin core is better than anything else I've seen, except perhaps armory's. It could be a ton better, esp wrt privacy... but it's not a common source of problems, and I think a bunch of test infrastructure work ought to be done before efforts to improve coinselection could really move forward.
1806 2014-05-05 20:26:17 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1807 2014-05-05 20:26:45 <tyrick> hearn: very interesting article
1808 2014-05-05 20:27:31 <gmaxwell> (on reread perhaps that sounded like I was saying it was good, I wasn't â just other things (excluding the above exception) aren't doing anything smarter, most do something worse)
1809 2014-05-05 20:27:47 <tyrick> I always felt weird about the change in a tx, but never thought about it being a privacy leak
1810 2014-05-05 20:28:36 <gmaxwell> 'weird'?
1811 2014-05-05 20:28:37 eristisk has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1812 2014-05-05 20:28:45 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1813 2014-05-05 20:29:36 <tyrick> sry, eerie
1814 2014-05-05 20:30:07 <hearn> heh. not sure thatâs any different :)
1815 2014-05-05 20:30:18 <hearn> do you get the shivers when you get handed back five bob at the coffees shop too?
1816 2014-05-05 20:30:40 <tyrick> an impending sense of doom
1817 2014-05-05 20:30:55 luke-jr__ has joined
1818 2014-05-05 20:31:01 <gmaxwell> f bitcoin were a balance based system (ignoring the horrible problems that would entail) and there were never change, you'd have an even worse privacy leak in every transaction that didn't spend all the coin. Good change management can reduce the leak by making it less obvious which output(s) were change.
1819 2014-05-05 20:31:17 <btcdevq> would it have been trivial to make bitcoin 100 satoshis from the beginning and just had 21 trillion btw?
1820 2014-05-05 20:32:15 <tyrick> gmaxwell: related to my earlier interest in mining with the qt client, I need coins on testnet
1821 2014-05-05 20:32:16 <btcdevq> was that not done for marketing reasons? because it would have taken too long to hit $1 ?
1822 2014-05-05 20:32:23 <tyrick> How do we get those?
1823 2014-05-05 20:33:24 <hearn> tyrick: http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/
1824 2014-05-05 20:33:37 <hearn> btcdevq: satoshi had no idea bitcoin would ever have any value at all. the choices he made were entirely arbitrary.
1825 2014-05-05 20:33:46 <justanotheruser> hearn: don't a lot of people use electrum?
1826 2014-05-05 20:33:46 CoinHeavy has quit (Quit: CoinHeavy)
1827 2014-05-05 20:33:53 Snyke has joined
1828 2014-05-05 20:33:55 <hearn> tyrick: or use regtest mode and you get blocks and coins whenever you want instantly!
1829 2014-05-05 20:34:00 <tyrick> ohhhh sweeeet
1830 2014-05-05 20:34:05 Snyke is now known as Guest64982
1831 2014-05-05 20:34:06 _biO_ has quit ()
1832 2014-05-05 20:34:16 <justanotheruser> Or is that not real SPV
1833 2014-05-05 20:34:17 <hearn> justanotheruser: depends how you define âa lotâ. last time we compared the numbers multibit was something like 15x the usage, iirc.
1834 2014-05-05 20:34:30 * tyrick feels wealthy
1835 2014-05-05 20:34:34 sytse has joined
1836 2014-05-05 20:34:39 <hearn> itâs sort of pseudo-SPV iâd say. it asks the server for the headers and checks them. but it doesnât go out onto the p2p network to learn about things,thereâs a small number of electrum servers
1837 2014-05-05 20:34:59 <justanotheruser> hearn: is multibit used more than bitcoinj?
1838 2014-05-05 20:35:40 <btcdevq> hearn: it seems unlikely satoshi didn't allow for a possibility that there could have eventually been real value, considering his posts that i've read
1839 2014-05-05 20:35:53 <gmaxwell> multibit 15x electrum? I find that completely unbelievable.
1840 2014-05-05 20:36:00 <hearn> justanotheruser: thatâd be impossible, as multibit is based on bitcoinj
1841 2014-05-05 20:36:19 <btcdevq> multibit is the most popular wallet, for sure
1842 2014-05-05 20:36:21 <hearn> gmaxwell: why?
1843 2014-05-05 20:36:24 eristisk has joined
1844 2014-05-05 20:36:43 <btcdevq> hearn: will you add support for stealth addresses to bitcoinj?
1845 2014-05-05 20:36:45 <hearn> gmaxwell: these are numbers pulled from multibit update pings vs electrum server traffic, stats provided by thomasv.
1846 2014-05-05 20:36:51 <justanotheruser> hearn: how would that make it impossible
1847 2014-05-05 20:36:56 luke-jr__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1848 2014-05-05 20:37:19 Chief_Panda has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1849 2014-05-05 20:37:24 <gmaxwell> hearn: Because it's taken me days in the past to find a single person that uses multibit, but while asking I got lots of electrum response. At a minimum the overlap with IRC is nearly nothing.
1850 2014-05-05 20:37:33 <hearn> gmaxwell: electrum looks sketchy as hell to any normal person. the download page is full of meaningless numbers, there are three different windows downloads and it says theyâre signed by a guy called âAnimazingâ
1851 2014-05-05 20:37:33 <ThomasV> huh?
1852 2014-05-05 20:37:35 <hearn> gmaxwell: yeah
1853 2014-05-05 20:37:44 <hearn> gmaxwell: most multibit users are on windows
1854 2014-05-05 20:37:51 Vitalik_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1855 2014-05-05 20:37:58 <hearn> thereâs an entire universe of bitcoin users out there that have never even heard of IRC. itâs scary as hell :)
1856 2014-05-05 20:38:03 ajweiss has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1857 2014-05-05 20:38:06 <jouke> Most of our customers have questions about Multibit.
1858 2014-05-05 20:38:12 dims has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1859 2014-05-05 20:38:22 <gmaxwell> Well thats scarry.
1860 2014-05-05 20:38:23 <hearn> iâve seen some of their support requests. theyâre the sort of people who use MS Word and find it confusing. completely mainstream
1861 2014-05-05 20:38:24 stuntkite has joined
1862 2014-05-05 20:38:40 <tyrick> Why did IRC get removed anyway?
1863 2014-05-05 20:38:44 <jouke> But maybe that is because electrum might have less bugs :P
1864 2014-05-05 20:38:52 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: no idea what this survey is worth, but still: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-WJ6VTH9/
1865 2014-05-05 20:39:03 Luke-Jr has joined
1866 2014-05-05 20:39:23 <hearn> i think multibit âseemsâ to have a lot of bugs because it has such a crapton of users, virtually all of whom are extremely average in their tech skills
1867 2014-05-05 20:39:31 <hearn> so you just get more reports overall
1868 2014-05-05 20:40:01 <jouke> that could be the case as well :P
1869 2014-05-05 20:40:01 Guest49780 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1870 2014-05-05 20:40:02 <hearn> ThomasV: i think any survey that says most people use Bitcoin Core is highly suspect at this point, given its performance characteristics. i find server pings more useful
1871 2014-05-05 20:40:08 dims has joined
1872 2014-05-05 20:40:11 <jouke> My guess is that multibit just has more users.
1873 2014-05-05 20:40:17 <hearn> also that says more people use paper wallets than any other wallet?
1874 2014-05-05 20:40:25 <hearn> i find myself being highly skeptical
1875 2014-05-05 20:40:28 <ThomasV> hearn: yeah, I agree
1876 2014-05-05 20:40:37 <gmaxwell> hearn: I don't know anything about reports, but multibit is almost unusably flaky for me personally. I've hoped that its just some "doesn't work well on linux"ness. Hard to say if the large numbers of squrrily private key loss reports are a product of the userbase or the software.
1877 2014-05-05 20:41:08 abossard_ has joined
1878 2014-05-05 20:41:17 <gmaxwell> hearn: I think people like to claim they use a paper wallet. :) (hopefully they don't since it's so easy to footgun while handling private keysâ¦).
1879 2014-05-05 20:41:23 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: was that survey on reddit?
1880 2014-05-05 20:41:25 <hearn> gmaxwell: all the ones iâve investigated boiled down to people trying to be clever with private key import/export and failing. like the people who imported a paper wallet, send a tx, then destroyed the wallet â¦â¦ now it sends money back to the last imported key if you have one.
1881 2014-05-05 20:41:26 <jouke> When I give a presentation on some meeting I always ask about wallet usage. Bitcoin-qt is hardly used, even at those people attending bitcoin meetings.
1882 2014-05-05 20:41:33 <tyrick> A wallet shouldn't lose your private keys
1883 2014-05-05 20:41:34 <mr_burdell> http://electrum.thwg.org/
1884 2014-05-05 20:41:42 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: I think so..
1885 2014-05-05 20:41:49 <hearn> gmaxwell: i donât recall seeing any case of private key loss with ânormalâ usage (though in fairness multibit does support key import - they take it out for multibit HD)
1886 2014-05-05 20:42:00 <mr_burdell> I consistently have 100-200 connections... which is 15-30 simultaneous users
1887 2014-05-05 20:42:29 <gmaxwell> hearn: I've personally brought you users who had wallet corruption in multibit who hadn't been doing anything funky (at least that they claimed to me)
1888 2014-05-05 20:42:39 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1889 2014-05-05 20:43:00 <hearn> yes, they often claim that. then we get the logs and it turns out they were lying/misremembering. the wetseals guy was like that.
1890 2014-05-05 20:43:07 nsh_ is now known as nsh
1891 2014-05-05 20:43:11 Malakai33 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1892 2014-05-05 20:43:19 <jouke> hehe
1893 2014-05-05 20:43:51 <hearn> he said he did nothing unusual and multibit just ate his money. turned out he had imported some kind of corrupted keys from blockchain.info and forgotten. and unfortunately also lost the wallet export file he used. so we could not debug that any further :(
1894 2014-05-05 20:44:14 Malakai33 has joined
1895 2014-05-05 20:44:17 <hearn> jim deleted the blockchain.info import code because of that. though i sort of wish heâd just tried to make it more robust instead. ben wrote it and it was sort of neglected.
1896 2014-05-05 20:44:58 <hearn> still, HD wallets will definitely make things more robust
1897 2014-05-05 20:45:42 <jouke> I am waiting on bip70 in multibit
1898 2014-05-05 20:45:50 Luke-Jr has joined
1899 2014-05-05 20:46:05 <hearn> i really wish they had not decided to do a groundup rewrite
1900 2014-05-05 20:46:24 <hearn> abandoning a successful product to start from scratch is rarely the right course :/
1901 2014-05-05 20:46:27 <ThomasV> hearn: since multibit uses a bloom filter, I don't think it is more SPV-ish than electrum. both lack a proof of completeness, and have to trust full nodes.
1902 2014-05-05 20:46:58 <hearn> ThomasV: i guess it depends how you define it. i always defined it to mean using the p2p network.
1903 2014-05-05 20:47:10 <jouke> I really whish I could find a programmer to help on projects like multibit
1904 2014-05-05 20:47:17 <hearn> but itâs true that electrum does check merkle branches
1905 2014-05-05 20:47:18 <gmaxwell> hearn: does bitcoinj support listening to addr messages yet?
1906 2014-05-05 20:47:37 <ThomasV> but the security model of electrum can still be improved. I plan to add fraud proofs (if a server lies about the root hash)
1907 2014-05-05 20:47:47 <hearn> gmaxwell: matt did some work on that. itâs not fast enough and not merged yet.
1908 2014-05-05 20:47:57 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1909 2014-05-05 20:47:58 <BlueMatt> ;;seen gavinandresen
1910 2014-05-05 20:47:58 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 days, 5 hours, 31 minutes, and 39 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> yeah, I was the troll in this one. Apologies.
1911 2014-05-05 20:48:00 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1912 2014-05-05 20:48:27 <hearn> speak of the devil
1913 2014-05-05 20:48:30 ryanxcha_ is now known as ryanxcharles
1914 2014-05-05 20:48:41 <BlueMatt> hmm?
1915 2014-05-05 20:48:48 <BlueMatt> did I break something else?
1916 2014-05-05 20:49:02 <hearn> no :) was just mentioning your work on getaddr based peer discovery for bitcoinj
1917 2014-05-05 20:49:14 <BlueMatt> oh, I still need to fix that up, right?
1918 2014-05-05 20:49:18 <BlueMatt> or did that happen magically?
1919 2014-05-05 20:49:24 <ThomasV> hearn: well, electrum could also fetch block headers directly from the network; the only reason why it does not is that I have been lazy about it. but I don't think it's a big issue.
1920 2014-05-05 20:49:26 <hearn> no. iâve been working on HD wallets mostly
1921 2014-05-05 20:49:30 <BlueMatt> ok, willdo
1922 2014-05-05 20:50:08 <hearn> BlueMatt: the code needs work but more importantly itâs not clear weâre going to get clean/stable enough lists of IPs using getaddr.
1923 2014-05-05 20:50:19 <hearn> BlueMatt: so that needs proper investigation before we move forward with polishing the code
1924 2014-05-05 20:50:31 <hearn> i talked about it with sipa a while ago, he had some ideas for tweaks to Core to improve things
1925 2014-05-05 20:50:34 daybyter has joined
1926 2014-05-05 20:50:55 <BlueMatt> hmm?
1927 2014-05-05 20:50:59 <hearn> ThomasV: yes itâs true that itâs a spectrum and electrum is very close to being the same thing these days
1928 2014-05-05 20:50:59 <BlueMatt> they dont need to be clean
1929 2014-05-05 20:51:02 <BlueMatt> thats kinda the point
1930 2014-05-05 20:51:57 wallet42 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1931 2014-05-05 20:52:01 <hearn> BlueMatt: they need to be clean. we have ~1-2 seconds to get connected, remember? if we store lots of crap addresses we found via getaddr and waste ages trying them and timing out, thatâs not good. right now nodes donât really try and give good fresh but stable lists of nodes
1932 2014-05-05 20:52:34 <BlueMatt> well, open 50 connections per second until you get one connection
1933 2014-05-05 20:52:38 coingenuity has joined
1934 2014-05-05 20:52:40 <BlueMatt> its not all that expensive to send 100 syns
1935 2014-05-05 20:54:23 <hearn> and if we got lucky and most do work? weâd end up with too many peers and have to immediately drop a lot. nodes would see tons of clients connect and immediately disconnect. not awesome. thereâs also an issue that unfortunately some bogus wifi routers kill your internet connection if you SYN too fast. though i wonder if thatâs still a problem these days. it was a big issue about 4 years ago
1936 2014-05-05 20:54:29 <hearn> but yes perhaps brute force can solve it
1937 2014-05-05 20:54:46 sdaftuar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1938 2014-05-05 20:55:14 <BlueMatt> hmm, wonder if theres a way to not finish the connection after the first few connect
1939 2014-05-05 20:55:20 <BlueMatt> probably cant reach that far into the kernel
1940 2014-05-05 20:55:22 <hearn> i think the other issue we identified was that the getaddr results donât necessarily get turned over
1941 2014-05-05 20:55:36 Guest49780 has joined
1942 2014-05-05 20:55:38 <BlueMatt> oh? that sucks
1943 2014-05-05 20:55:40 <hearn> like, once Core has found a bunch of connections, it wonât go looking for more to keep the results fresh. so you could end up with weird hotspotting or something like that. donât recall the details
1944 2014-05-05 20:55:42 <hearn> sipa knows them
1945 2014-05-05 20:55:59 <hearn> the DNS seeds have a lot of logic in them to give good results and Core doesnât really match that
1946 2014-05-05 20:56:25 <gmaxwell> Its not intended to behave the same way at all... The p2p behavior is intended to prevent partitioning attacks.
1947 2014-05-05 20:56:40 <gmaxwell> It's not intended for acheiving the fastest time to first connection.
1948 2014-05-05 20:56:43 <sipa> hearn: how about you reserve 2 connections for addr-learnt peers?
1949 2014-05-05 20:56:55 <BlueMatt> imho the dns seeds are over engineered
1950 2014-05-05 20:56:56 <hearn> you mean use both dns seeds and getaddr in parallel?
1951 2014-05-05 20:56:58 <sipa> make some connecions quickly
1952 2014-05-05 20:57:04 <sipa> yes
1953 2014-05-05 20:57:09 <gmaxwell> hearn: thats what we do in bitcoin core.
1954 2014-05-05 20:57:10 Matt_von_Mises has joined
1955 2014-05-05 20:57:15 <BlueMatt> just returning a set that are likely to work that constantly turns over works just as well, if not better for the network
1956 2014-05-05 20:57:18 <hearn> well, itâd probably end up biased towards fetching data from the seed provided peers. as theyâre more likely to be stable/fast
1957 2014-05-05 20:57:21 <BlueMatt> and helps with partitioning issues somewhat too
1958 2014-05-05 20:57:35 <hearn> but sure it does insulate somewhat from dns seed outages
1959 2014-05-05 20:57:47 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I don't know what the turns over comment is about. The state in bitcoin core is continually evolving.
1960 2014-05-05 20:58:18 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: my dnsseed returns the set of most recently checked nodes
1961 2014-05-05 20:58:31 <hearn> thereâs a pull req thatâs nearly ready to merge that loads a seeds.txt as provided by sipaâs software. so weâll be packaging that.
1962 2014-05-05 20:58:33 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: others put in a lot of effort to pick ones that have been up for a while
1963 2014-05-05 20:58:38 <Matt_von_Mises> When trying to build 0.9.1 on Mac, it produces an executable in src/qt but not an app package, following the instructions in release-process.md
1964 2014-05-05 20:58:38 <BlueMatt> which is more effort than its worth, imo
1965 2014-05-05 20:59:15 <BlueMatt> in fact, I prefer to return nodes that just came online instead of only ones that we've seen for a bit
1966 2014-05-05 20:59:28 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: that most recently checked is likely to cause some pretty nasty hotspotting. But in any case, management for anti-partitioning and load balancing is likely very different than for time to connect.
1967 2014-05-05 20:59:35 wallet42 has joined
1968 2014-05-05 20:59:41 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, for a minute until it turns over...
1969 2014-05-05 21:00:02 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1970 2014-05-05 21:00:31 <hearn> sipa: that does sound like a reasonable step forward at least. use a mix of dns and getaddr recorded ips. boosts reliability. not sure if it makes much difference to decentralisation. an experience that works but is sort of sucky/slow if the central helper goes down - does it count? :)
1971 2014-05-05 21:00:58 <gmaxwell> sure it counts, since you can just leave the software running.
1972 2014-05-05 21:00:59 <hearn> or heck maybe iâm wrong about the performance. the lists of IPs i was getting were pretty sketchy last time i tried but it might be that just ramping up the volume as matt suggests resolves that and then in practice it works
1973 2014-05-05 21:01:11 <hearn> ah, well, not on android
1974 2014-05-05 21:01:27 <hearn> android apps have short, harsh lives ...
1975 2014-05-05 21:01:33 <gmaxwell> hearn: you should also remember ones that worked for you recently and try those.
1976 2014-05-05 21:01:44 CoinHeavy has joined
1977 2014-05-05 21:01:54 <hearn> right yes thatâs inherent in doing getaddr i think. thatâs what mattâs code implements iirc. basically itâs an addrman.cpp reimplementation
1978 2014-05-05 21:02:10 <hearn> complete with ad hoc anti-hurricane electric rules :)
1979 2014-05-05 21:02:28 eristisk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1980 2014-05-05 21:02:44 <BlueMatt> hearn: ehhh, thats not so great, you end up connecting to a single node from the dnsseed and lose incentive to fix the getaddr code
1981 2014-05-05 21:02:58 eristisk has joined
1982 2014-05-05 21:03:18 <sipa> adhoc rules are best rules
1983 2014-05-05 21:03:19 <hearn> weâre already incentivised to fix it and it didnât happen yet :) iâm not a big believer in keeping software deliberately sucky to incentivise the perfect fix
1984 2014-05-05 21:03:25 <BlueMatt> and always doing that since you only are alive for a brief period
1985 2014-05-05 21:03:46 wallet42 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1986 2014-05-05 21:03:51 <BlueMatt> well my point is it doesnt change anything doing it that way but adds complexity
1987 2014-05-05 21:03:57 <BlueMatt> and, in fact, decreases connection count
1988 2014-05-05 21:04:24 <hearn> we can weight it. 2 attempted connections from dns and 10 from addrman or whatever. if dns ips are 5x better quality ...
1989 2014-05-05 21:04:39 <gmaxwell> In any case, when I'd looked previously someone who controlled a single dns seed could completely partition bitcoinj nodes with reasonably high probablity... electrum currently has a much better security model than that.
1990 2014-05-05 21:04:39 <hearn> anyway itâd boost reliability. weâre quite exposed to some kind of dns seed outage or DoS attack at the moment
1991 2014-05-05 21:05:06 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1992 2014-05-05 21:05:07 <hearn> gmaxwell: it queries a mix of seeds in parallel so i think it might be harder than it seems
1993 2014-05-05 21:05:22 nsh has joined
1994 2014-05-05 21:05:29 cheetah2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1995 2014-05-05 21:05:30 <gmaxwell> hearn: at one point it was taking a result from a single seed. (I did actually attempt this, not just theory)
1996 2014-05-05 21:06:18 <hearn> itâs been a while since i worked on that code, but i think itâs done parallel queries to all of them for quite a long time. but at some point it may have just picked one and used only that. donât recall.
1997 2014-05-05 21:06:58 Tonykai33 has joined
1998 2014-05-05 21:07:06 <gmaxwell> Right, my expirence here is probably outdated. Good that its at least querying multiple ones, though that does mean that controlling an upstream dns server gives the same result.
1999 2014-05-05 21:07:31 <hearn> *shrug* controlling the electrum servers lets you partition electrum clients.
2000 2014-05-05 21:07:34 Malakai33 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2001 2014-05-05 21:07:44 Tonykai33 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2002 2014-05-05 21:07:45 <gmaxwell> hearn: yes, though they connect to multiple servers now.
2003 2014-05-05 21:07:48 go1111111 has joined
2004 2014-05-05 21:07:59 <hearn> i think in the long run all these different wallet models will end up converging, i guess
2005 2014-05-05 21:08:15 <hearn> iâm not sure what electrum needs to end up using only the p2p network but it canât be far off now.
2006 2014-05-05 21:08:40 <hearn> i guess itâs still requiring an indexed block chain and then verifying the branches async?
2007 2014-05-05 21:08:45 Guest49780 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2008 2014-05-05 21:09:49 <gmaxwell> electrum distinguishes servers that basically have the utxo vs ones that have the history. So if there were scriptpubkey indexing of the utxo then it could use normal nodes for most of its operation.
2009 2014-05-05 21:09:57 <hearn> gmaxwell: actually we landed the integrated Tor client last week. so that changes things a bit, for wallet authors that enable it. dns seeds are resolved via exit nodes
2010 2014-05-05 21:10:04 <hearn> not sure if that is terrifying or awesome :)
2011 2014-05-05 21:10:30 <BlueMatt> someone wanna parse the end of this for me: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/ws/linux-build/.bitcoin/regtest/debug.log ?
2012 2014-05-05 21:11:15 ConvivialMatt has quit (Quit: ConvivialMatt)
2013 2014-05-05 21:11:23 <BlueMatt> it seems to be reorg'ing off of a chain (height going down in UpdateTip's) after which it disconnects a node for socket inactivity
2014 2014-05-05 21:11:24 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: well, all electrum servers have both utxo and history atm, although the length of history that they keep varies.
2015 2014-05-05 21:11:31 <hearn> BlueMatt: a regtest gone crazy?
2016 2014-05-05 21:11:34 <BlueMatt> even though the socket is being used
2017 2014-05-05 21:11:46 <BlueMatt> hearn: test cases have been failing for like months
2018 2014-05-05 21:11:48 <BlueMatt> and no one noticed
2019 2014-05-05 21:12:03 <hearn> hmm i saw gavin talk about and fix the pull tester just recently
2020 2014-05-05 21:12:12 <BlueMatt> so..seems like ProcessMessage got stuck reorging, let a socket timeout, which disconnected it?
2021 2014-05-05 21:12:18 <BlueMatt> maybe we should disconnect on ProcessMessage
2022 2014-05-05 21:12:31 <BlueMatt> heakins: pull-tester runns slimmed-down test-cases that only jenkins runs the full one
2023 2014-05-05 21:12:42 <hearn> ah
2024 2014-05-05 21:12:46 <hearn> i didnât know that
2025 2014-05-05 21:12:56 <hearn> yeah that interpretation seems reasonable
2026 2014-05-05 21:12:59 * jgarzik listens
2027 2014-05-05 21:13:05 <hearn> ThomasV: so it sort of does chain pruning already?
2028 2014-05-05 21:13:18 <ThomasV> hearn: yes
2029 2014-05-05 21:13:43 <hearn> ThomasV: to what extent is the indexed UTXO set really necessary? seeing as you are sending down the tx branches anyway
2030 2014-05-05 21:13:55 <BlueMatt> the pull-tester interpreted getting disconnected as test failure as the bitcoind failed to reorg
2031 2014-05-05 21:14:12 <jgarzik> picocoin avoids DNS seeds, if it has an address database, in the name of decentralization. Finding a peer is painfully slow ;p
2032 2014-05-05 21:14:21 <jgarzik> Even if the address database is only 24 hr old
2033 2014-05-05 21:14:41 <hearn> jgarzik: when did you last test it? i hypothesise that the network is becoming more stable / churning less over time.
2034 2014-05-05 21:14:47 <jgarzik> I'm changing it to use DNS seeds always like Bitcoin Core, but still, it's annoying
2035 2014-05-05 21:14:53 <jgarzik> getaddr returns 95% junk
2036 2014-05-05 21:15:01 <ThomasV> hearn: I don't understand your question. which branches?
2037 2014-05-05 21:15:07 <tyrick> When did DNS seeding enter into BTC?
2038 2014-05-05 21:15:09 <hearn> ThomasV: sorry, i was vague. the merkle branches.
2039 2014-05-05 21:15:13 <jgarzik> tyrick, years ago
2040 2014-05-05 21:15:22 <hearn> ThomasV: i guess the primary feature the electrum servers provide that p2p nodes canât is the instant key import?
2041 2014-05-05 21:15:24 <sipa> 0.4 iirc
2042 2014-05-05 21:15:31 <tyrick> isn't this a potential vulnerability?
2043 2014-05-05 21:15:35 <ThomasV> hearn: which merkle branches? relative to block or to utxo tree?
2044 2014-05-05 21:15:40 <hearn> tyrick: bitcoin always had seeding. it must do, by definition. before DNS it used IRC
2045 2014-05-05 21:15:43 <jgarzik> tyrick, less so than IRC seeding :)
2046 2014-05-05 21:15:45 <hearn> ThomasV: block
2047 2014-05-05 21:15:54 <tyrick> IRC is p2p
2048 2014-05-05 21:15:59 <sipa> lol
2049 2014-05-05 21:16:04 <jgarzik> wrong
2050 2014-05-05 21:16:20 unyo has joined
2051 2014-05-05 21:16:21 <hearn> tyrick: this one wasnât. it was an irc server run by lazlo, i think. anyway it didnât scale and sucked in many other ways. the only truly decentralised seeding system is nmap the internet :)
2052 2014-05-05 21:16:57 kermit has joined
2053 2014-05-05 21:17:00 pierreatwork has joined
2054 2014-05-05 21:17:03 <ThomasV> hearn: in the future, the indexed utxo will be used to send merkle branches relative to the utxo tree. that is not enabled at this point.
2055 2014-05-05 21:17:03 <sipa> ThomasV: but there is nothing that commits your utxo tree to the chain?
2056 2014-05-05 21:17:11 <gmaxwell> It hardly worked and it was a big vulnerability since a single server operator could trivially partition new nodes via it.
2057 2014-05-05 21:17:11 giustoXricordarl has joined
2058 2014-05-05 21:17:29 <ThomasV> sipa: indeed. but we can detect servers that are lying, with fraud proofs
2059 2014-05-05 21:17:40 <sipa> hmm
2060 2014-05-05 21:17:46 <hearn> ThomasV: sometimes i wonder if electrum and the p2p network could merge somehow. like if electrum servers advertised themselves via addr with new service bits, and electrum clients mostly just synced right off the p2p network like bitcoinj does, then all wallets could have all features. or something like that.
2061 2014-05-05 21:17:59 <hearn> so the big electrum databases would be used only when someone wanted âinstant restore from seedâ
2062 2014-05-05 21:18:16 <sipa> hearn: if the p2p network has a ommited and.validated.utxo tree, es
2063 2014-05-05 21:18:20 dhill has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2064 2014-05-05 21:18:26 <sipa> bah, tiny phone
2065 2014-05-05 21:18:32 <ThomasV> sipa: of course I would love to see the root hash commited to the chain :)
2066 2014-05-05 21:18:34 <hearn> sipa: well electrum doesnât have one of those at the moment anyway.
2067 2014-05-05 21:18:36 dhill has joined
2068 2014-05-05 21:18:44 <sipa> committed and indexed utxo tree
2069 2014-05-05 21:18:57 <hearn> ThomasV: whatâs the feature that this provides again? instant key import with more security?
2070 2014-05-05 21:19:15 <gmaxwell> what electrum needs, however, is useless for validation... so I am not in favor of requiring a comment to it.
2071 2014-05-05 21:19:20 <gmaxwell> :(
2072 2014-05-05 21:19:32 <sipa> commit, you mean?
2073 2014-05-05 21:19:43 <gmaxwell> yes. and I don't even have the phone excuse.
2074 2014-05-05 21:20:24 <tyrick> I still don't understand how nodes can discover others outside of the DNS seeds and getaddr
2075 2014-05-05 21:20:24 danielpbarron is now known as danielpbarron``
2076 2014-05-05 21:20:25 <ThomasV> hearn: well, I really know nothing about the p2p protocol, but I guess that would be possible
2077 2014-05-05 21:20:29 danielpbarron`` is now known as danielpbarron
2078 2014-05-05 21:20:41 <sipa> yeah, txid indexed utxo is.far more useful
2079 2014-05-05 21:20:49 <ThomasV> hearn: but it would be better if the utxo index was performed directly by bitcoind
2080 2014-05-05 21:20:56 <sipa> but useless for electrum like clients
2081 2014-05-05 21:21:11 GMP has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2082 2014-05-05 21:21:13 Guest49780 has joined
2083 2014-05-05 21:21:19 imton_ has joined
2084 2014-05-05 21:21:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: well not useless, since you can still freely do the lookups with a non-normative data structure.
2085 2014-05-05 21:21:26 <gmaxwell> and still prove membership.
2086 2014-05-05 21:21:30 <hearn> ThomasV: p2p protocol has no way to look up anything keyed by address. you can only scan the chain forward. however, it turns out this works fine for it seems lots and lots of users. itâs painful if you need to restore a wallet from just a seed or import a key, but these operations are rare
2087 2014-05-05 21:21:31 <sipa> hmm?
2088 2014-05-05 21:21:58 <sipa> gmaxwell: i don't.understand
2089 2014-05-05 21:22:02 <gmaxwell> sipa: you can say "these txid:vout are yours, here is proof they are in the utxo"
2090 2014-05-05 21:22:05 <hearn> ThomasV: for everyday usage of ârun my wallet, see my balance, receive/spend some coinsâ it works fine though and it is cheap for the remote node. no db is needed beyond the utxo set
2091 2014-05-05 21:22:31 <sipa> gmaxwell: right but.you can't prove you did not.omit anything
2092 2014-05-05 21:22:35 <gmaxwell> Correct.
2093 2014-05-05 21:22:50 imton has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2094 2014-05-05 21:22:50 imton_ is now known as imton
2095 2014-05-05 21:22:55 <sipa> which spv can't either now
2096 2014-05-05 21:22:59 <gmaxwell> Right.
2097 2014-05-05 21:23:12 SimonTower has joined
2098 2014-05-05 21:23:13 <ThomasV> hearn: the problem is, restore from seed is something electrum users tend to do quite often
2099 2014-05-05 21:23:18 <hearn> why?
2100 2014-05-05 21:23:24 <ThomasV> at least some of them
2101 2014-05-05 21:23:30 <sipa> i don't like p2p features.that require trust in the peer
2102 2014-05-05 21:23:39 <hearn> paper wallet users or something?
2103 2014-05-05 21:23:55 <gmaxwell> Addrindex immediately raises problems of needing to handle unbalanced trees, kinda lame to have to make a self balancing structure normative. Also encourages reuse by making locality... and it ~doubles the state space required for a minimum storage verifying node.
2104 2014-05-05 21:24:02 <jouke> one wallet on more devices?
2105 2014-05-05 21:24:03 <ThomasV> hearn: well, they run it from a live cd with linux tail+ electrum, and type their seed
2106 2014-05-05 21:24:20 <ThomasV> hearn: and nothing is written to disk
2107 2014-05-05 21:24:37 imton has quit (Client Quit)
2108 2014-05-05 21:25:05 <hearn> electrum users are rather special arenât they :) this is fine today for our kinds of very basic usage. but wallet metadata can only become more important with time. that kind of thing could be supported just as well via encrypted usb keys, i guess
2109 2014-05-05 21:25:05 <ThomasV> and for everything non-bitcoin, they use windows, of course :)
2110 2014-05-05 21:25:40 <sipa> gmaxwell: you can have privateindeximg ervers that.do the lokup and provide txid-utxo-tree proofs in.return
2111 2014-05-05 21:25:45 <hearn> still. if we have a p2p network with a mix of nodes of different powers, we can have our cake and eat our cake
2112 2014-05-05 21:25:50 <mr_burdell> hearn: setting up an encrypted usb key isn't a trivial task for most users
2113 2014-05-05 21:25:57 <hearn> so itâs not like we have to pick one or the other
2114 2014-05-05 21:26:07 <gmaxwell> sipa: yes, I agree.
2115 2014-05-05 21:26:09 xdotcomm_ has joined
2116 2014-05-05 21:26:16 <hearn> mr_burdell: theyâre running tails! theyâre not most users already. besides that kind of thing is what tails is all about right, making it super easy.
2117 2014-05-05 21:26:41 <mr_burdell> burning a CD and restarting your computer is easier than properly securing a USB drive
2118 2014-05-05 21:27:01 <mr_burdell> and ensuring that your data is only being written to encrypted locations
2119 2014-05-05 21:27:07 <sipa> using a hardware wallet to protect your keys will be even easier
2120 2014-05-05 21:27:12 <gmaxwell> It still leaves open the risk of exclusion, but you can address that by hitting multiple servers or, if you are feeling snazzy, PIR techniques.
2121 2014-05-05 21:27:19 <sipa> and not require.even a secire qindows
2122 2014-05-05 21:27:24 <jouke> hearn: when most users think of a wallet, they mostly think of a place where private keys are stored, not about tx info.
2123 2014-05-05 21:27:28 <hearn> gmaxwell: are there *any* PIR techniques that actually work?
2124 2014-05-05 21:27:37 <hearn> jouke: today yes. but i hope that will change as we add more features.
2125 2014-05-05 21:27:44 <gmaxwell> hearn: oh absolutely, the multiserver ones are pratical.
2126 2014-05-05 21:28:00 <gmaxwell> hearn: (e.g. as implemented http://percy.sourceforge.net/ )
2127 2014-05-05 21:28:02 dims has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2128 2014-05-05 21:28:04 <sipa> jouke: imho a strong misconception :)
2129 2014-05-05 21:28:17 xdotcommer has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2130 2014-05-05 21:28:17 <hearn> for what kind of db sizes? iâve mostly looked at PIR in the context of intersecting a small set with a huge one
2131 2014-05-05 21:28:18 MolokoDeck has joined
2132 2014-05-05 21:28:21 <hearn> e.g. for textsecure
2133 2014-05-05 21:28:29 <ThomasV> hearn: but everything that is not your private keys can be in the cloud
2134 2014-05-05 21:28:31 maraoz has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2135 2014-05-05 21:28:38 <hearn> ThomasV: right, modulo brute forcing attacks
2136 2014-05-05 21:28:48 <hearn> ThomasV: but that includes your tx data :)
2137 2014-05-05 21:29:01 <sipa> and by giving up privacy to the cloud
2138 2014-05-05 21:29:01 <roybadam1> Just as an aside.... I really wish wallets would be better at capturing tx info
2139 2014-05-05 21:29:17 <sipa> such as?
2140 2014-05-05 21:29:30 <ThomasV> sipa: if you are using electrum, you are already giving up some privacy
2141 2014-05-05 21:29:38 <sipa> ThomasV: yup
2142 2014-05-05 21:29:44 KillYourTV has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2143 2014-05-05 21:29:44 s7r has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2144 2014-05-05 21:29:44 Adlai has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2145 2014-05-05 21:29:44 mortale has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2146 2014-05-05 21:29:44 gst_ has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2147 2014-05-05 21:29:45 <sipa> spv too
2148 2014-05-05 21:29:45 dignork has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2149 2014-05-05 21:29:56 <hearn> one of my old managers at google is a bit bitcoin fan. but last time i talked to him he pointed out how pathetic it is that most wallets donât even let you attach notes to transactions
2150 2014-05-05 21:30:00 gst has joined
2151 2014-05-05 21:30:07 <hearn> itâs like â¦. we donât even get the A B Cs of financial software right today
2152 2014-05-05 21:30:08 <gmaxwell> hearn: it just ends up disk bandwidth limited. Since a query has to be processed against all the data in the privacy set. I've tested that percy library against a multigigabyte database.
2153 2014-05-05 21:30:10 s7r has joined
2154 2014-05-05 21:30:13 dignork has joined
2155 2014-05-05 21:30:31 Adlai has joined
2156 2014-05-05 21:30:31 <roybadam1> e.g. one POS merchant I use puts the fiat amount into the message field of the BIP21 URL.... and my wallet displays it, but then throws it away. If the wallet would actually record this information it would make doing my taxes easier.
2157 2014-05-05 21:30:46 <hearn> gmaxwell: ok thatâs what i thought. i guess i was excluding âread the entire dbâ with âactually worksâ :) probably it is not possible to have everything though, with pir
2158 2014-05-05 21:30:52 KillYourTV has joined
2159 2014-05-05 21:30:58 <sipa> roybadam1: payment protocol lalalalala
2160 2014-05-05 21:31:19 <jouke> payment protocol ftw :)
2161 2014-05-05 21:31:27 <roybadam1> sipa: yes, and I don't think bitcoin core saves the memo, does it?
2162 2014-05-05 21:31:27 <hearn> sipa: you can store encrypted wallets in âthe cloudâ so then thereâs little privacy issue
2163 2014-05-05 21:31:30 <mr_burdell> roybadam1: that's kept with the tx details in electrum... do other wallets not keep it?
2164 2014-05-05 21:31:34 <hearn> you can reuse the wallet seed as the decryption key
2165 2014-05-05 21:31:40 <sipa> roybadam1: i hope it does :o
2166 2014-05-05 21:31:43 <hearn> no server? ok, you get your money back but no metadata. server? you get back everything
2167 2014-05-05 21:31:50 <tyrick> I don't see why btc couldn't have included messages anyway?
2168 2014-05-05 21:32:13 <roybadam1> mr_burdell: well, the BIP21 transaction was with the android wallet (and the merchant is planning to support the payment protocol)
2169 2014-05-05 21:32:19 <hearn> mr_burdell: most donât keep any tx metadata at all :(
2170 2014-05-05 21:32:23 <sipa> tyrick: becauae it is private dat that the world doesnt need to validate your transaction
2171 2014-05-05 21:32:38 <jouke> I am contemplating to remove all addresses and only use payment protocol. When people want to use addresses, the have to specify that they are still using "old" wallets :)
2172 2014-05-05 21:32:47 <hearn> jouke: hardcore!
2173 2014-05-05 21:32:50 <sipa> tyrick: it unnecwessarily burdens everyone
2174 2014-05-05 21:33:03 <tyrick> the additional hash in the merkle root?
2175 2014-05-05 21:33:09 <tyrick> is that so much of a burden?
2176 2014-05-05 21:33:14 <roybadam1> sipa: But, if Bitcoin Core is saving the memo field of my bitpay transactions, then I don't see it anywhere obvious - how do I view it?
2177 2014-05-05 21:33:16 <gmaxwell> hearn: If you preprocess the DB then there is no read the entire DB requirement... really the catch is that you have to retrieve the data from as as many servers as you need to be robust against. Percy is mostly not setup for preprocessing so that the client can pick its security parameters.
2178 2014-05-05 21:33:31 <sipa> please learn the protocol first
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2180 2014-05-05 21:33:42 roybadam1 is now known as roybadami
2181 2014-05-05 21:33:47 <sipa> tyrick: every byte that is unnecessary is unnecessary
2182 2014-05-05 21:33:50 <hearn> roybadami: i think itâs unsaved.
2183 2014-05-05 21:34:01 <sipa> tyrick: as only sendwr and receiver care about it
2184 2014-05-05 21:34:20 <gmaxwell> and what a privacy nightmare that would be too.. yeech.
2185 2014-05-05 21:34:28 <hearn> roybadami: bitcoinj throws the data away too. itâs dumb â¦. i never fixed it. basically the code needs a good hard refactoring so the wallet operates in terms of âpaymentsâ and not wire transactions
2186 2014-05-05 21:34:37 <tyrick> sipa: agreed. It's a trade off for easy merchant adoption
2187 2014-05-05 21:34:51 <tyrick> gmaxwell: since it is an optional message, privacy isn't an issue.
2188 2014-05-05 21:34:58 <gmaxwell> tyrick: it absolutely is an issue.
2189 2014-05-05 21:35:00 <sipa> two people storing a kilobyte extra is better than requiring every single full node forver to stor
2190 2014-05-05 21:35:02 <hearn> roybadami: but actually most wallet devs have invented their own backup formats too so getting them to use the regular format (or both) is a requirement to make such data survive backup/restore
2191 2014-05-05 21:35:12 <sipa> e one byte extra
2192 2014-05-05 21:35:13 Namworld has joined
2193 2014-05-05 21:35:23 <hearn> tyrick: Bitcoin 0.1 did allow messages
2194 2014-05-05 21:35:24 <gmaxwell> tyrick: a lack of privacy on your coins makes everyone you transact with less private, recursively, regardless of if they agree with your practices or not.
2195 2014-05-05 21:35:32 <pigeons> i think you used to be able to see a comment the sender put if you were connecting via ip address instead of "bitcoin address"
2196 2014-05-05 21:35:32 <gmaxwell> hearn: yep, and without spamming up the network.
2197 2014-05-05 21:35:36 <sipa> tyrick: the payment protoco wil be dfar easier.in practice
2198 2014-05-05 21:35:42 <hearn> pigeons: correct
2199 2014-05-05 21:35:50 <tyrick> isn't privacy only an issue when you are not allowed to maintain it
2200 2014-05-05 21:35:54 <sipa> tyrick: and it.sends the message.only to the one who cares about it
2201 2014-05-05 21:35:55 <gmaxwell> and they were completely private.
2202 2014-05-05 21:35:57 <hearn> satoshi told me once he spend ages trying to find a way to make it work for the offline case too but couldnât do it
2203 2014-05-05 21:36:12 <tyrick> If someone wishes to publish a message that exposes info, so be it
2204 2014-05-05 21:36:41 <tyrick> sipa: I don't know anything about it
2205 2014-05-05 21:36:46 <gmaxwell> tyrick: No. Privacy is a problem when its expensive and you can't have it unless you make unreasonable consessions. Then honest people don't benefit from it, only criminals do.
2206 2014-05-05 21:36:52 <sipa> tyrick: we have the option to provide technology that makes it easy to send messages without burdening anyone
2207 2014-05-05 21:37:00 napedia has quit ()
2208 2014-05-05 21:37:16 <tyrick> sipa: sounds like a winner then
2209 2014-05-05 21:37:29 <hearn> itâs called â¦â¦ email :)
2210 2014-05-05 21:37:34 <tyrick> haha
2211 2014-05-05 21:37:34 <sipa> so please stop advocating a silly.solution that is only bad for privacy, and only seems.easy now because.of how the system worls
2212 2014-05-05 21:37:35 <gmaxwell> And often you don't know how much privacy you actually need, because a loss of privacy harms you forever and you don't know what the future holds... so its important that privacy be inexpensive so you can afford to have it just in case, even when you're just a boring person.
2213 2014-05-05 21:38:28 <tyrick> just entertaining an idea. I don't want to advocate anything at this point.
2214 2014-05-05 21:38:38 <tyrick> I hardly know what is going on in btc
2215 2014-05-05 21:38:38 <sipa> ok
2216 2014-05-05 21:40:32 <hearn> i sometimes wonder how bitcoin would have looked different if itâd included a small message persistence and download service out of the box in v0.1. probably it wouldnât have worked very well due to the lack of stable nodes back then. but itâs fun to speculate.
2217 2014-05-05 21:40:47 Luke-Jr has joined
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2219 2014-05-05 21:41:18 <gmaxwell> It's a little annoying, I think our community will eventually have to build such things just to keep people from trying to cram that stuff in the blockchain.
2220 2014-05-05 21:41:35 go1111111 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2221 2014-05-05 21:41:55 <sipa> or if paytoip had been the payment protocol from the star, and the only way of sending tranaactions
2222 2014-05-05 21:42:03 <hearn> well then nobody would have used bitcoin
2223 2014-05-05 21:42:07 <tyrick> The blockchain already has issues with size, with or without whatever extra is talk about
2224 2014-05-05 21:42:07 <hearn> addresses won for a reason
2225 2014-05-05 21:42:10 <sipa> maybe
2226 2014-05-05 21:42:37 <hearn> paytoip was a sort of payment protocol. it just used satoshi serialization instead of protobufs, and p2p instead of http. and no signing.
2227 2014-05-05 21:42:41 <tyrick> my friend mentioned he once tried to download bitcoin, but it just kept syncing and syncing for days, so he uninstalled it
2228 2014-05-05 21:42:52 <sipa> hearn: i know very well :)
2229 2014-05-05 21:43:00 <hearn> yes yes but for the children :)
2230 2014-05-05 21:43:13 <gmaxwell> tyrick: thats not really all that related to size.
2231 2014-05-05 21:43:14 <hearn> tyrick: in the early days the block chain didnât take very long to sync.
2232 2014-05-05 21:43:16 btcdevq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2233 2014-05-05 21:43:21 <hearn> tyrick: and weâre going waaaaaay back here
2234 2014-05-05 21:43:23 <tyrick> It already turns people away with the current size. Are there solutions proposed for this?
2235 2014-05-05 21:43:38 <sipa> yes, fixing the sync mechanism
2236 2014-05-05 21:43:50 <sipa> it won't reduce.the.size
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2238 2014-05-05 21:44:03 <sipa> but.it.will make.it not.get stuck
2239 2014-05-05 21:44:27 <hearn> tyrick: your friend should probably not have tried to use bitcoin-qt, if he didnât know what he was getting in for. the website directs people to other wallets now for that reason.
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2241 2014-05-05 21:46:04 <tyrick> I think everyone wants the 'official' version
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2243 2014-05-05 21:46:16 <tyrick> and the ppa bitcoin/bitcoin doesn't help either
2244 2014-05-05 21:47:06 <tyrick> So is the current sync too slow?
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2246 2014-05-05 21:47:20 <sipa> yes
2247 2014-05-05 21:47:55 <tyrick> Ya, if I can torrent the bootstrap in 4 hours, syncing shouldn't take a week
2248 2014-05-05 21:48:15 <hearn> youâre comparing apples and oranges
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2250 2014-05-05 21:48:23 <sipa> not really
2251 2014-05-05 21:48:39 <hearn> even if/when the sync algorithm improves torrenting is _just_ downloading, whereas sync is download+verify+leveldb
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2253 2014-05-05 21:48:50 <sipa> in theory, network can be made into the constraining.factor
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2255 2014-05-05 21:49:29 <sipa> at which point.downloading the torrent.shouldn't be much faster.than validating at the same time
2256 2014-05-05 21:50:06 <tyrick> when I pop the bootstrap file in, it doesn't take a week to verify
2257 2014-05-05 21:50:12 <gmaxwell> hearn: it should be a fair bit faster than the torrent, in fact. since you can overlap the download and verify... and was with sipa's first cut headers first patch under good conditions.
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2260 2014-05-05 21:50:46 <hearn> ah i think tyrick was saying it takes just 4 hours to download only, before bitcoin is started
2261 2014-05-05 21:51:26 <tyrick> >.> perhaps he was
2262 2014-05-05 21:52:01 <sipa> he was
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2266 2014-05-05 21:52:30 <sipa> i assume
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2269 2014-05-05 21:53:31 <tyrick> Work day over. This chat room is the closest thing I have to entertainment while at my desk.
2270 2014-05-05 21:53:41 <sipa> tsss
2271 2014-05-05 21:54:15 <gmaxwell> My point was that headers-first's time should be ~= the download alone (or better due to having more peers available), and thus a couple hours faster than download + verify sequentially.
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2319 2014-05-05 22:20:45 <roybadami> I know this isn't true for syncing the earlier part of the blockchain, where the average block size was much smaller, but for me syncing current stuff is CPU-limited (maxes out both cores on my laptop) so there's really nothing that's going to speed it up except optimizing the verification code. Do I have an unusually slow machine, then?
2320 2014-05-05 22:21:26 <gmaxwell> roybadami: Does your entire synchronization process take under 200 minutes?
2321 2014-05-05 22:21:26 <sipa> is it maxing out the cores _all_ the time?
2322 2014-05-05 22:21:48 <sipa> expected behaviour is that after the last checkpoint it will indeed max out your CPU while it has blocks to process
2323 2014-05-05 22:22:03 <sipa> but it's quite likely to stall for several minutes or longer from time to time
2324 2014-05-05 22:22:15 <roybadami> I mean, when I fire up Bitcoin Core, after not having used it for a couple of days, then it will max out CPU while syncing those blocks.
2325 2014-05-05 22:22:38 <sipa> yeah, that's expected
2326 2014-05-05 22:22:46 <sipa> run with -benchmark
2327 2014-05-05 22:22:57 <roybadami> So, unless I'm misunderstanding what's going on, that must mean that verification is the limiting factor these days rather than actually downloading
2328 2014-05-05 22:22:59 <sipa> it will tell you how much time it is spending in block processing and verification
2329 2014-05-05 22:23:10 <gmaxwell> roybadami: thats fine and expected, but if thats all thats limiting the result is the sync taking about 150 minutes on my quad core i7 here.
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2331 2014-05-05 22:23:12 <sipa> roybadami: no, downloading is the limiting factor on decent hardware
2332 2014-05-05 22:23:22 <gmaxwell> rather than the "week" which was being discussed above.
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2336 2014-05-05 22:25:48 <gmaxwell> roybadami: also, we have not yet deployed code that makes the ecdsa itself something like 6x faster.
2337 2014-05-05 22:25:56 <roybadami> well, it's a while since I've done a full resync, but pretty sure that during the earlier, smaller blocks - first year or two of the blockchain - the CPU utilisation is low - so there's obviously scope to speed up that part of the sync. But once it gets to the more recent blocks and becomes CPU-limited, the only thing that's really nothing that's going to help except optimising the ECDSA implementation.
2338 2014-05-05 22:26:08 <gmaxwell> roybadami: you're incorrect.
2339 2014-05-05 22:26:33 <sipa> roybadami: so, first of all: before the last checkpoint, signature checks are currently disabled
2340 2014-05-05 22:26:43 <sipa> signature checking is the only part that happens multithreaded
2341 2014-05-05 22:26:43 <gmaxwell> roybadami: Yes, there is more cpu work to do later than earlier in the chain. Thats very true, it does not, however follow that the thing making sync slow for people us cpu usage.
2342 2014-05-05 22:27:09 <sipa> so expected behaviour - assuming you have all blocks available already - is 1 fully loaded core before the last checkpoint, all loaded cores afterwards
2343 2014-05-05 22:27:11 <roybadami> Ah, I didn't realise signatures weren't checked before the last checkpoint....
2344 2014-05-05 22:27:25 <roybadami> But that makes sense
2345 2014-05-05 22:27:37 <gmaxwell> roybadami: right now, a full sync on a 3.2ghz quad core i7 system system which encounters no fetching related issues over the network takes 150 minutes. Pulling off the public p2p network takes >12 hours, and sometimes multiple days.
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2352 2014-05-05 22:29:37 <gmaxwell> so the difference between 720-2800 minutes and 150 is all sync fixes, not cpu related. To reduce the 150 minute number further ecdsa needs to be faster, but as mentioned libsecp256k1 is ~6x faster on 64 bits systems.
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2354 2014-05-05 22:30:07 <gmaxwell> Though unless you have >>20mbit/sec of connectivity you still aren't likely to become cpu bottlenecked.
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2358 2014-05-05 22:31:32 <roybadami> I'm CPU-limited on current blocks (i.e. when the signature check is happening) with a 10mbps connection. Three-year-old Macbook Air 11" - Core 2 Duo 1.6GHz
2359 2014-05-05 22:31:49 <roybadami> or even a 10Mbps connection :)
2360 2014-05-05 22:32:04 <gmaxwell> ah, well indeed, thats pretty slow machine by current standards!
2361 2014-05-05 22:32:43 <roybadami> Well, it is for a new machine, but what proportion of people replace their machine anually?
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2364 2014-05-05 22:33:24 <gmaxwell> Well it's not a year old machine you're talking about, penryn was a circa 2007 chip.
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2366 2014-05-05 22:34:09 <roybadami> Well, it's a December 2010 machine - I think Core 2 Duo lasted longer in laptops than it did on the desktop
2367 2014-05-05 22:34:10 <gmaxwell> (and my 3.2ghz i7 is from december 2011.)
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2372 2014-05-05 22:36:03 <gmaxwell> roybadami: in any case, I'm not sure what we're still talking about. Thats an older system, its going to be slow. Nevertheless, I also told you above that we have new ECDSA code which is ~6x faster on x86_64... which may actually move you back to being network bound or not, there is only so much that can be done for older hardware. :)
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2380 2014-05-05 22:40:28 <roybadami> I'm not really sure what my point is :) I think it's that although this would be considered low spec for a development machine, it's really not particularly low spec for a general purpose machine.
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2382 2014-05-05 22:41:14 <roybadami> (That's not quite fair actually, it *does* struggle with HD video playback)
2383 2014-05-05 22:41:26 <gmaxwell> Right.
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2398 2014-05-05 22:47:38 <GAit> gmaxwell: do you still think it is too early to think about blind signatures?
2399 2014-05-05 22:48:08 <GAit> i was reading oleganza's work
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2401 2014-05-05 22:48:40 <gmaxwell> sadily oleganza's signatures are single show... which I fear is too unsafe to use in practice.
2402 2014-05-05 22:48:50 <gmaxwell> (for most applications)
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2405 2014-05-05 22:49:52 <GAit> i would like to reduce how much greenaddress knows about transaction where possible
2406 2014-05-05 22:50:07 <gmaxwell> also, without a seperate ZKP they don't let you verify anything about the thing you're signingâ for applications that can take that, there is always the option of the realitykey style private key disclosure.
2407 2014-05-05 22:50:13 <gmaxwell> GAit: right.
2408 2014-05-05 22:51:59 <petertodd> GAit: an interesting possibility re: private key disclosure would be a public timelock crypto scheme
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2410 2014-05-05 22:55:24 <GAit> petertodd: i'm googling a bit like mad, not sure i'm familiar with it but maybe i read about the concept
2411 2014-05-05 22:56:01 <GAit> is that the oracle releasing information that allows either party a or b to unlock funds ?
2412 2014-05-05 22:56:08 <petertodd> GAit: basically, you publish an encrypted private key, where the encryption is intentionally weak so it's actually feasible to decrypt it in a reasonable amount of time.
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2414 2014-05-05 22:56:20 <GAit> petertodd: oh ok
2415 2014-05-05 22:56:35 <petertodd> GAit: yeah, with some key derivation stuff so that one private key can be used to unlock many different accounts
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2419 2014-05-05 22:57:12 <petertodd> or actually, it'd be enough to just have different private keys, and one master encryption key that can be brute forced (one master per week/month/year or something)
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2422 2014-05-05 22:57:41 <petertodd> more reliable than the nLockTime stuff as releasing private keys is malleability immune
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2424 2014-05-05 22:58:03 <GAit> petertodd: but surely it can't be very precise or account for big tech improvements
2425 2014-05-05 22:59:00 <petertodd> GAit: actually it's not so bad - there are parallel/serial schemes where the timelock crypto algorithm is forced to be a sequential operation, with no parallelization potential, e.g. H(H(H())) type stuff
2426 2014-05-05 22:59:06 <GAit> and i don't understand the scenario or how it can be more secure
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2428 2014-05-05 22:59:48 <petertodd> GAit: basically the advantage with timelock is that you only need a single user who happened to save the encrypted key to unlock your customer's funds, vs. nLockTime + email where any email that gets lost screws it all up
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2430 2014-05-05 23:00:44 <GAit> petertodd: you could also publish the nlocktime tx encrypted on a public repo (halfsigned)
2431 2014-05-05 23:01:45 <petertodd> GAit: actually you'd do it the other way around - the nLockTime mechanism is still used w/ email, and the timelock crypto is set to a very long timeout - say ~1 year - so that usually the nLockTime is good enough, but if that fails you can resort to timelock crypto
2432 2014-05-05 23:01:46 <GAit> but also integration with third parties backup storage (like gdrive or dropbox)
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2439 2014-05-05 23:03:10 <petertodd> GAit: unrelated, but you need to handle double-spends: 350180c68cfba1a94b9ac8e52ed7769a2ac836e47b4f6f6f78286ad8759a8074, doesn't mention it's been double-spent; shows up still as 'unconfirmed'
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2441 2014-05-05 23:03:29 <GAit> is the encrypted key with yet another third party, on a public repo or did miss something?
2442 2014-05-05 23:03:49 <petertodd> GAit: well you publish it somewhere - including a copy in every user's nLockTime email would be fine
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2444 2014-05-05 23:05:05 <GAit> petertodd: thanks, we'll add some big warning when we see a double spend
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2446 2014-05-05 23:05:44 <petertodd> GAit: see https://github.com/petertodd/replace-by-fee-tools and https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/replace-by-fee-v0.9.1 to generate them
2447 2014-05-05 23:06:25 <petertodd> GAit: ideal is to put some logic in so harmless double-spends - like bumping fees - doesn't do anything bad
2448 2014-05-05 23:06:54 <GAit> i guess if the difference is just fees yes, fair enough, 'upgraded'
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2451 2014-05-05 23:07:46 <petertodd> GAit: basically anything the bump-fees.py script does shouldn't be a big deal; so long as the outputs paying you are the same there's nothing to be worried about
2452 2014-05-05 23:08:49 <petertodd> GAit: equally, given that unconfirmed transactions are unreliable, you may want to just make the 'double-spent' case be just to cross out the transaction in question (in the no-replacement case)
2453 2014-05-05 23:10:01 <GAit> yeah something that doesn't confuse too much the user but that gives him/her all the information they need
2454 2014-05-05 23:10:27 <petertodd> yup, just telling them "Transaction was cancelled by the sender" is perfectly accurate, especially given that some wallet software appears to double-spend accidentally
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2476 2014-05-05 23:37:31 <shesek> I dunno who is doing that, but getting a block on testnet every 10-20 seconds is pretty awesome for my tests :)
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2480 2014-05-05 23:38:43 <petertodd> shesek: "Testnet! Now with Dogecoin Speed!â¢"
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2482 2014-05-05 23:38:59 <shesek> haha
2483 2014-05-05 23:39:04 <sipa> wow!
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