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  37 2014-05-06 00:39:10 * dgenr8 wonders how it is possible for 2 transactions to differ by "just fees"
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  42 2014-05-06 00:42:12 <petertodd> dgenr8: the outputs can be the same with additional inputs
  43 2014-05-06 00:42:18 <dgenr8> child-pays-for-parent seems an excellent way to bump fees.  it's not a respend, and it would still work if 1st xactn is confirmed
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  46 2014-05-06 00:43:28 <petertodd> it's also more expensive and to make it work well you need fairly complex network changes
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  48 2014-05-06 00:45:13 <dgenr8> more expensive how?
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  55 2014-05-06 00:45:46 <petertodd> dgenr8: work out the total fees needed to pay for a child-pays-for-parent vs. a replacement
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  60 2014-05-06 00:53:39 <olalonde> 23
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  63 2014-05-06 00:54:41 <petertodd> olalonde: with anyonecanpay, if you can change txouts significantly less
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  66 2014-05-06 01:03:08 <dgenr8> looking at your changes to AcceptToMemoryPool.  all mempool txes that have at least one of the same inputs as tx are replaced.  i don't see an attempt to figure out if the overall output set is the same.
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  68 2014-05-06 01:04:40 <petertodd> dgenr8: there is no attempt to do that at all
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  70 2014-05-06 01:06:02 <dgenr8> sounds like i could double-spend somebody pretty good then
  71 2014-05-06 01:06:39 <petertodd> dgenr8: see https://github.com/petertodd/replace-by-fee-tools/blob/master/doublespend.py
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  79 2014-05-06 01:09:54 <dgenr8> is that a demonstration of how to double-spend the changes to AcceptToMemoryPool?  i don't follow
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  82 2014-05-06 01:10:35 <petertodd> dgenr8: try it out and see; you'll need a local node running https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/replace-by-fee-v0.9.1
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  85 2014-05-06 01:11:20 <mr_burdell> is transaction signing and message signing done the same way?
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  87 2014-05-06 01:12:03 <mr_burdell> and why do transactions require the pubkey to be included, however signed messages can be used to calculate the pubkey?
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  92 2014-05-06 01:17:16 <sipa> mr_burdell: message signing uses different technology, that was presumably unknown when satoshi designed bitcoin's scripting language
  93 2014-05-06 01:17:35 <mr_burdell> ah, ok... that makes sense
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  95 2014-05-06 01:18:20 <mr_burdell> are there any altcoins that have tried to implement that?
  96 2014-05-06 01:18:28 <sipa> lol
  97 2014-05-06 01:18:58 <mr_burdell> no actual crypto devs working on altcoins i guess
  98 2014-05-06 01:19:08 <gmaxwell> Pretty much.
  99 2014-05-06 01:19:10 <petertodd> mr_burdell: there's hardly any actual crypto devs on bitcoin...
 100 2014-05-06 01:19:53 <gmaxwell> (though not entirely; there is an altcoin that uses a rather clever ring signature system for anonymity; ... amusingly, it's not one of the altcoins you've probably heard of)
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 104 2014-05-06 01:24:43 <dgenr8> petertodd: i'm flummoxed.  you allow a tx to replace all others with 1+ matching utxo, as long as the fees are more, but it doesn't have to pay anyone who was being paid before? smells like free coffee
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 106 2014-05-06 01:25:18 <petertodd> dgenr8: unconfirmed transactions are unsafe, deal with it
 107 2014-05-06 01:25:33 <petertodd> dgenr8: did you try the doublespend tool out? note how well it works even without miner support
 108 2014-05-06 01:26:00 <dgenr8> the status quo is much safer than this change
 109 2014-05-06 01:26:26 <petertodd> dgenr8: like I said, did you actually try it?
 110 2014-05-06 01:28:36 <dgenr8> i think i can stipulate to the claim that your doublespend.py tool creates successful doublespends against the AcceptToMempool changes
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 113 2014-05-06 01:29:01 <petertodd> no, I mean, try it out and see if the double-spend gets mined, you may be surprised
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 115 2014-05-06 01:29:19 <petertodd> fwiw I'm running just four nodes with that patch applied - nothing special
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 118 2014-05-06 01:33:37 <dgenr8> petertodd: why are you running nodes with that patch applied?
 119 2014-05-06 01:36:10 <petertodd> dgenr8: because I believe bitcoin would be better if we stop pretending that zeroconf is secure, and secondly on a technical level replace-by-fee behavior is extremely useful
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 121 2014-05-06 01:36:27 <petertodd> dgenr8: again, have you actually tried my script? like I keep saying, double-spending is already very easy
 122 2014-05-06 01:37:57 <dgenr8> nobody is pretending 0-conf is secure.  respends are happening and costing people money as we speak. and i don't see why you need to make it worse to prove it.
 123 2014-05-06 01:38:41 <petertodd> well, if it's not secure, then we might as well bite the bullet and do something else to get the same effects...
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 127 2014-05-06 01:41:47 <petertodd> dgenr8: I notice you still haven't actually tried said tool...
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 131 2014-05-06 01:43:02 <dgenr8> petertodd: I'll try it.  Also I would really appreciate your thoughts on whether we could reduce the insecure period in 0-conf by 10 - 100x with a consensus rule arount tx receipt time differences
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 133 2014-05-06 01:44:24 <petertodd> dgenr8: consensus doesn't work that way - you need a "detect and punish" system, which is what replace-by-fee scorched-earth intends to do, similarly fidelity bond schemes. also trusted third-parties possible, and they don't have to be very trusted. and finally, there's micropayment schemes and pre-signing schemes like the one I wrote up for mycelium wallet
 134 2014-05-06 01:44:40 <petertodd> or you can stick your head in the sand and wish bitcoin was more like paypal...
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 189 2014-05-06 02:41:54 <efynn> Hi... Could you point me a full list of rpc json calls to interact with the blockchain? I want, for instance, list all transactions done in some address
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 191 2014-05-06 02:47:03 <pigeons> bitcoin-cli help
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 200 2014-05-06 02:59:33 <efynn> pigeons: I read those, do you know of any method to get a list of transactions that aren't mine?
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 204 2014-05-06 03:03:58 <pigeons> not a list. if you have the transactionid you get getrawtransaction to see one that isnt yours. you might need txindex enabled
 205 2014-05-06 03:04:57 <pigeons> i guess i would look at a watch-only patch and add the address
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 213 2014-05-06 03:16:03 <efynn> What I need is like a listtransactions with an address parameter, so I can list all transactions involved with the address
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 258 2014-05-06 03:45:24 <efynn> https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/14170/is-there-a-json-rpc-method-for-retrieving-all-transactions-for-a-given-address
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 260 2014-05-06 03:45:40 <efynn> so there isn't any, I would have to implement my own =/
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 263 2014-05-06 03:47:34 <mr_burdell> efynn: depends what you're trying to do, but there are other tools that implement that feature
 264 2014-05-06 03:47:48 <mr_burdell> electrum, bitcore, sx/obelisk
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 267 2014-05-06 03:48:57 <gmaxwell> efynn: generally that sort of thing should be avoided if at all possible, its inherently non-scalable, and requires gigabytes of additional indexes. (as well as being incompatible with pruning, meaning another 16gigabytes currently over the baseline requirements for block validation)
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 272 2014-05-06 03:54:17 <mr_burdell> gmaxwell: does txindex=1 turn off the pruning you're talking about or is that something else?
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 276 2014-05-06 03:56:36 <gmaxwell> mr_burdell: No, because we don't yet expose an option to turn it on. But depending on being able to do those kinds of lookups mean you could never have pruning.
 277 2014-05-06 03:56:57 <gmaxwell> (so the marginal cost of using your node in that way is currently not obvious)
 278 2014-05-06 03:58:18 <efynn> gmaxwell: The system I'm creating requires that to be secure, I can't blindly trust in blockchain.info, can I?!
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 280 2014-05-06 03:58:42 <mr_burdell> efynn: you can use other tools on top of bitcoind and still get that functionality
 281 2014-05-06 03:58:52 <gmaxwell> efynn: I'm not sure where you extracted the idea that I'd ever suggest bc.i.
 282 2014-05-06 03:58:55 <mr_burdell> without trusting anything but your own node
 283 2014-05-06 03:59:08 <gmaxwell> efynn: rather you should think about what you're doing and consider if you really need that functionality.
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 285 2014-05-06 04:00:23 <dgenr8> petertodd: thank you for your thoughts, although I wish you were more specific.
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 287 2014-05-06 04:03:16 <efynn> thanks mr_burdell, I'll check other tools
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 290 2014-05-06 04:08:23 <efynn> gmaxwell: sorry about my misinterpretation, I'll rethink the system.
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 443 2014-05-06 06:59:16 <lalala> hello?
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 445 2014-05-06 07:00:13 <lalala> hello?
 446 2014-05-06 07:00:31 smash has joined
 447 2014-05-06 07:00:49 <lalala> hi @smash?
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 449 2014-05-06 07:01:19 <smash> hi - am I in trouble?
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 452 2014-05-06 07:06:05 <lalala> @smash, no i'm just checking if people are active here
 453 2014-05-06 07:06:31 sploush has joined
 454 2014-05-06 07:06:46 <lalala> just wanna ask those having experience with bitcoin development
 455 2014-05-06 07:07:42 <smash> oic, I'm no developer. just lurking
 456 2014-05-06 07:08:39 kdomanski has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 457 2014-05-06 07:08:47 <smash> I only come here to live vicariously :)
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 460 2014-05-06 07:11:06 <justanotheruser> lalala: don't ask to ask, just ask
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 477 2014-05-06 07:25:41 <lalala> is there an available api so i can implement a mobile app that uses bitcoin?
 478 2014-05-06 07:26:16 <Luke-Jr> lalala: uh, you realise bitcoin is p2p, right?
 479 2014-05-06 07:26:18 <sipa> if you want to rely on a centralized service, sure
 480 2014-05-06 07:26:27 <sipa> but that's sort-of against bitcoin's spirit
 481 2014-05-06 07:26:48 <sipa> (also, i doubt you'll get help for doing that here)
 482 2014-05-06 07:26:55 <Luke-Jr> or maybe he wants BitcoinJ
 483 2014-05-06 07:27:07 btcxpert has quit (Quit: btcxpert)
 484 2014-05-06 07:27:13 <Luke-Jr> guess he didn't say web api
 485 2014-05-06 07:28:13 Grouver has joined
 486 2014-05-06 07:28:39 <lalala> i'm still researching about bitcoin. still a noob, actually.
 487 2014-05-06 07:29:08 <lalala>  i found third parties like coinbase.com who has available web api, but as much as possible we don't want to be dependent on third parties
 488 2014-05-06 07:29:35 <sipa> if you don't want to depend on third parties, you'll need to speak the p2p protocol yourself
 489 2014-05-06 07:29:48 <sipa> one way to do so on mobile is using BitcoinJ
 490 2014-05-06 07:30:02 <lalala> oh i see
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 495 2014-05-06 07:30:56 <lalala> but looks like BitcoinJ is for java only. we're trying on obj-c/ios
 496 2014-05-06 07:31:08 <Luke-Jr> lalala: Apple doesn't allow Bitcoin
 497 2014-05-06 07:32:09 <lalala> yeah, i've read about the news. we're still experimenting though. maybe useful in the future
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 637 2014-05-06 10:25:30 <survic> will there be another Bitcoin release updating past openssl 1.0.1g?
 638 2014-05-06 10:25:48 <wumpus> that's what 0.9.1 did
 639 2014-05-06 10:26:10 <survic> I thought 0.9.1 updated *to* 1.0.1g?
 640 2014-05-06 10:26:15 <wumpus> right
 641 2014-05-06 10:26:26 <survic> CVE-2014-0198 affects 1.0.1g
 642 2014-05-06 10:26:32 <wumpus> don't tell me that there was another critical issue with openssl?
 643 2014-05-06 10:26:55 <t7> heh
 644 2014-05-06 10:26:59 <survic> null pointer dereference > crash.
 645 2014-05-06 10:27:05 <t7> lovely DOS attack
 646 2014-05-06 10:27:31 <Apocalyptic> openssl is starting to look like sendmail back in the days
 647 2014-05-06 10:27:32 <wumpus> looks pretty pointless in the case of bitcoin, only hosts already in rpcallow could do it *if* you have rpcssl enabled
 648 2014-05-06 10:28:00 <survic> not unreasonable to think that there's nodes with * allowip
 649 2014-05-06 10:28:07 <wumpus> if your host is not in the rpcallow list it slams the door on you before even calling OpenSSL
 650 2014-05-06 10:28:14 <t7> survic: thats really bad practice
 651 2014-05-06 10:28:21 <survic> not an emergency scramble thing like 0.9.1, but nice to update to that for 0.9.2
 652 2014-05-06 10:28:39 <wumpus> it would make sense to upgrade openssl for next release, but it is not reason enough to do an urgent release
 653 2014-05-06 10:28:43 Raziel has joined
 654 2014-05-06 10:28:56 <survic> t7: so are brain wallets, but they're in common use. people do stupid thing to "get stuff working". I bet there's solo miners that have done that.
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 662 2014-05-06 10:32:40 <survic> google: site:pastebin.com "rpcallowip=" "rpcssl=1"
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 666 2014-05-06 10:34:27 <survic> oh that's nice, there's bits of malware in those results for finding and emptying people's wallet.dat.
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 682 2014-05-06 10:51:41 <sipa> wumpus: i almost have a PR ready that breaks the huge cs_main lock during validation (which causes the huge delays in shutdown and others when processing orphans)
 683 2014-05-06 10:52:31 <sipa> it's on top of #3884, but i may be able to do it on top of master too if wanted
 684 2014-05-06 10:54:16 <sipa> wumpus: for 0.9.2
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 689 2014-05-06 10:58:28 <warren> has 0.9.2 forked from master?
 690 2014-05-06 10:58:32 <sipa> no
 691 2014-05-06 10:58:39 <warren> ok, need to know for the nightly builder
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 719 2014-05-06 11:30:26 <wumpus> sipa: okay great!
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 724 2014-05-06 11:35:05 <wumpus> sipa: I think on top of master would make most sense, at least unless we move #3884 to 0.9.2 but I dunno...
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 734 2014-05-06 11:44:15 <wumpus> warren: I'll let you know when I do that
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 826 2014-05-06 12:45:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I thought BC wouldn't create dust outputs and would instead just tack them onto the fee?
 827 2014-05-06 12:45:33 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|now has an output of ~4500 satoshis :-/
 828 2014-05-06 12:45:54 <survic> michagogo|cloud: the definition of "dust" changed recently.
 829 2014-05-06 12:46:04 <survic> it's now 10x less.
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 831 2014-05-06 12:46:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Gah. So it's only outputs of ~<600 satoshis that it refrains from creating? :-/
 832 2014-05-06 12:47:04 <survic> not sure of the exact value, but it's something like that
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 835 2014-05-06 12:47:30 <survic> 546 satoshi
 836 2014-05-06 12:47:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I think it was 546 or so, if it's 10x less
 837 2014-05-06 12:47:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah
 838 2014-05-06 12:47:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I guess I'll just stick it on next time I create a tx :-/
 839 2014-05-06 12:48:03 <survic> set by CTransaction::nMinRelayTxFee, which was lowered recently
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 859 2014-05-06 13:12:59 <kdomanski> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4129#issuecomment-42299562
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 882 2014-05-06 13:45:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: it's impossible because everyone who's using Multibit is using bitcoinj, while there are other things that use bitcoinj.
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 884 2014-05-06 13:45:36 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: ?
 885 2014-05-06 13:46:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: that's why there can't be more Multibit users than bitcoinj users
 886 2014-05-06 13:46:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You asked the question, and I didn't see it answered
 887 2014-05-06 13:46:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Same reason there can't be more squares than rectangles
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 890 2014-05-06 13:47:19 <justanotheruser> Oh, thanks. What do you think of bitcoinj? If I make a utility for bitcoin, should I make it for bitcoinj too since it is the most used SPV client?
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 892 2014-05-06 13:48:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: it's not a client exactly
 893 2014-05-06 13:48:39 <helo> sounds reasonable to use bitcoinj to make your utility
 894 2014-05-06 13:48:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"Library" is a better word, I think
 895 2014-05-06 13:48:52 <helo> it is regarded well around here from what i can tell
 896 2014-05-06 13:49:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah -- very widely used
 897 2014-05-06 13:49:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The two biggest examples are Multibit and aschildbach
 898 2014-05-06 13:49:57 <hearn> parts are actually used by blockchain.info too. i don’t recall how much.
 899 2014-05-06 13:50:14 <hearn> and hive but i don’t have any user numbers for that at the moment
 900 2014-05-06 13:50:26 <justanotheruser> What SPV client has the best RPC?
 901 2014-05-06 13:50:40 <justanotheruser> And is stable
 902 2014-05-06 13:50:52 <aschildbach> hi everyone!
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 904 2014-05-06 13:50:55 <hearn> none of them are compatible with the bitcoind JSON-RPC API
 905 2014-05-06 13:50:55 <aschildbach> heard my name...
 906 2014-05-06 13:50:57 <hearn> hey andreas
 907 2014-05-06 13:51:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, I wonder how hard, theoretically, it would be to librarize Bitcoin Core
 908 2014-05-06 13:51:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|aschildbach: hey, was just mentioning you as a bitcoinj user
 909 2014-05-06 13:51:24 <hearn> it’s been done before. libcoin
 910 2014-05-06 13:51:24 <helo> Hard
 911 2014-05-06 13:51:38 <helo> at least hard to do it so well that Bitcoin Core wallet/node uses it
 912 2014-05-06 13:51:38 <aschildbach> just about everyone is bitcoinj user.... (-:
 913 2014-05-06 13:52:16 <hearn> implementing the JSON-RPC API with bitcoinj underneath would be a lot easier
 914 2014-05-06 13:52:19 <hearn> there’s actually an open issue for it
 915 2014-05-06 13:52:28 <hearn> grrrr. my bitcoind got OOM killed
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 917 2014-05-06 13:53:37 <helo> is OOM kill a sig 9, or would it have a second to fire off an alert?
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 919 2014-05-06 13:54:15 <helo> it's sigkill :/
 920 2014-05-06 13:55:48 <helo> would be nice if an alertnotify could let one know their node died
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 922 2014-05-06 13:56:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I guess you'd need a second process for that
 923 2014-05-06 13:57:04 <hearn> Tor emails you if your node goes down or gets too old, etc
 924 2014-05-06 13:57:08 <hearn> it’d be cool to have something like that
 925 2014-05-06 13:57:14 <hearn> maybe an extension of getaddr.bitnodes.io
 926 2014-05-06 13:57:22 <hearn> sipa: we need bitcoin-sre :)
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 928 2014-05-06 13:58:16 <sipa> ha
 929 2014-05-06 13:59:39 * hearn is semi-serious
 930 2014-05-06 13:59:53 <hearn> Tor has a tor-ops@torproject.org address where people help out run the network, i think
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 933 2014-05-06 14:00:58 <sipa> bitcoin-ops = bitcops?
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 937 2014-05-06 14:02:00 <hearn> i like it!
 938 2014-05-06 14:02:02 <hearn> :)
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 943 2014-05-06 14:06:25 <Ry4an> that's totally not going to feed into the "core devs are an authoritarian cabal" loon ball's world view. ;)
 944 2014-05-06 14:06:59 <wumpus> in torrc you can optionally set a Nickname for your node as well as ContactInfo, could be useful for bitcoind too, at least for public nodes
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 947 2014-05-06 14:09:10 <hearn> yeah
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 949 2014-05-06 14:10:02 <wumpus> though that would need a P2P extension to be able to query the information
 950 2014-05-06 14:10:28 <sipa> i look forward to people setting their node name to "MyNode'; DROP TABLE Nodes;--"
 951 2014-05-06 14:10:50 <wumpus> :-)
 952 2014-05-06 14:11:37 <survic> interestingly, a lot of nodes have an HTTP status page already
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 956 2014-05-06 14:13:26 <wumpus> interesting, can you give an example?
 957 2014-05-06 14:13:40 <survic> hold on, I have a list somewhere.
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 959 2014-05-06 14:14:13 <survic> http://199.58.210.124/
 960 2014-05-06 14:14:38 <survic> http://www.releasemeusa.com/
 961 2014-05-06 14:14:44 <survic> http://192.227.139.229/
 962 2014-05-06 14:14:57 <survic> you get the drift.
 963 2014-05-06 14:15:30 <wumpus> thanks
 964 2014-05-06 14:16:00 <wumpus> seems that they even have some standard format?
 965 2014-05-06 14:16:20 <survic> https://github.com/krusherpt/bitcoin-node-status-script
 966 2014-05-06 14:16:37 <survic> there's ones that don't use that which I've seen, but they're not as easy to find with Google.
 967 2014-05-06 14:17:07 <survic> wait maybe that's not it. it's on Github somewhere though.
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 971 2014-05-06 14:19:27 <hearn> that’s cool. a useful status page would tell you other things though
 972 2014-05-06 14:19:32 <hearn> like memory usage, load, etc
 973 2014-05-06 14:19:46 <hearn> maybe some aggregate stats about connections
 974 2014-05-06 14:20:00 <survic> definitely. you could graphs peers and uptime and things.
 975 2014-05-06 14:20:10 <sipa> a basic http server would be trivial to integrate, but if it's intended to be exposed to the public internet, you need dos protection on it & co
 976 2014-05-06 14:20:44 <wumpus> that definitely shouldn't be integrated into bitcoind imo
 977 2014-05-06 14:21:37 <survic> no, but an external daemon might be nice.
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 979 2014-05-06 14:22:02 <wumpus> there's no reason to do it internally to the process, all the information can be polled/requested through RPC
 980 2014-05-06 14:22:04 <wumpus> sure!
 981 2014-05-06 14:22:25 <survic> you also need root permissions to open port 80, which is undesirable
 982 2014-05-06 14:22:49 <sipa> the only reason to integrate it, is because it may encourage people to run nodes (humans *love* webpages with graphs & statistics :p)
 983 2014-05-06 14:23:04 <wumpus> sipa: it could always not be integrated but still packaged with the node install
 984 2014-05-06 14:23:20 datagutt has joined
 985 2014-05-06 14:23:21 <survic> status page on 8334 with some graphs and traffic statistics?
 986 2014-05-06 14:23:46 <survic> oh 8334 is namecoin.
 987 2014-05-06 14:23:52 WishBoy- has joined
 988 2014-05-06 14:25:09 <survic> 8331 then.
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 995 2014-05-06 14:29:08 <sipa> wumpus: yeah, some tiny python script that functions as a webserver would be nice
 996 2014-05-06 14:29:16 <wumpus> I think it's a great idea, I just don't like the let's-throw-everything-into-bitcoind approach
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 999 2014-05-06 14:29:32 <sipa> and queries stuff, gathers and stores statistics, shows graphs of connections/bandwidth/memory/cpu/... over time
1000 2014-05-06 14:30:19 <wumpus> that sounds very useful
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1002 2014-05-06 14:30:53 Eiii has joined
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1007 2014-05-06 14:31:42 <hearn> sipa: it should re-export the data in varz format too, so people can do aggregate monitoring
1008 2014-05-06 14:32:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: isn't there a library for that that e.g. Pywallet uses?
1009 2014-05-06 14:33:01 <sipa> hearn: haha
1010 2014-05-06 14:33:14 <sipa> /coinz
1011 2014-05-06 14:33:24 soulblade738 has joined
1012 2014-05-06 14:33:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Twister, was it?
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1016 2014-05-06 14:34:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google twister
1017 2014-05-06 14:34:01 <gribble> Twister (1996) - IMDb: <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117998/>; Twister (1996 film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twister_(1996_film)>; Twister (game) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twister_(game)>
1018 2014-05-06 14:34:03 <survic> twisted
1019 2014-05-06 14:34:03 <dgenr8> i thought of exposing debug.log, or at least some extraction of it
1020 2014-05-06 14:34:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Uh
1021 2014-05-06 14:34:07 MolokoDeck has joined
1022 2014-05-06 14:34:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google twister library
1023 2014-05-06 14:34:13 <gribble> dajobe/libmtwist · GitHub: <https://github.com/dajobe/libmtwist>; Mersenne twister - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersenne_twister>; How to implement Mersenne Twister random number generation in ...: <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18550656/how-to-implement-mersenne-twister-random-number-generation-in-c>
1024 2014-05-06 14:34:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google python twister
1025 2014-05-06 14:34:25 <gribble> Twisted: <https://twistedmatrix.com/>; Twisted (software) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twisted_(software)>; python - What's so cool about Twisted? - Stack Overflow: <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5458631/whats-so-cool-about-twisted>
1026 2014-05-06 14:34:28 <sipa> dgenr8: has privacy implications
1027 2014-05-06 14:34:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, Twisted.
1028 2014-05-06 14:35:09 <dgenr8> sipa: yeah, just the bits i want to share then
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1033 2014-05-06 14:37:05 <dgenr8> sipa: i want to share respend script hex, since the ones I see usually don't make it elsewhere (and vice versa)
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1036 2014-05-06 14:38:35 <sipa> dgenr8: ?
1037 2014-05-06 14:39:02 <dgenr8> double-spend transactions.  a node sees 50 or so a day
1038 2014-05-06 14:39:19 <survic> you don't really want to do that
1039 2014-05-06 14:39:25 <dgenr8> why not?
1040 2014-05-06 14:39:45 <survic> people will try to rely on it to make zero confirmation transactions "work"
1041 2014-05-06 14:40:01 <dgenr8> sigh
1042 2014-05-06 14:40:41 <survic> it's not really interesting information anyway
1043 2014-05-06 14:40:45 <sipa> sharing them privately with whomever is interested in it is fine
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1045 2014-05-06 14:41:51 <dgenr8> satoshibones will be interested since they are being relentlessly and successfully double-spent.  i don't have time to identify them all though
1046 2014-05-06 14:41:57 Eiii has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1047 2014-05-06 14:42:02 <sipa> well, bad business model :)
1048 2014-05-06 14:42:08 <dgenr8> and of course i only see a tiny fraction
1049 2014-05-06 14:42:14 <survic> wouldn't that be an indication that they should stop doing that?
1050 2014-05-06 14:42:29 <survic> if you put your hand in a fire and it burns, you stop doing it
1051 2014-05-06 14:42:34 <dgenr8> they should not pay out immediately in today's environment, thats for sure
1052 2014-05-06 14:42:46 <sipa> if you need to see double spends, you need a network of detector nodes
1053 2014-05-06 14:42:54 <sipa> that can be trusted
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1057 2014-05-06 14:43:04 <survic> and even then anybody can just mine alternate blocks
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1059 2014-05-06 14:43:14 <sipa> yup
1060 2014-05-06 14:44:07 <survic> tl;dr: you can't do zero confirmations without risk, end of story.
1061 2014-05-06 14:44:17 <dgenr8> i'm sorry, is this the open-source bitcoin development channel?
1062 2014-05-06 14:45:01 <survic> I get the feeling that's not a serious question.
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1064 2014-05-06 14:45:39 <sipa> i think that - as long as the network aims to provide best-effort zero-conf security - wanting to detect double spends is fine
1065 2014-05-06 14:45:53 <dgenr8> thank you, agreed
1066 2014-05-06 14:46:16 <sipa> as it improves the ability to assess the risk associated with 0-conf, which will always exist
1067 2014-05-06 14:46:26 <sipa> i dount however that that situation can be maintained for long
1068 2014-05-06 14:46:39 <survic> as you can't ever promise that it will be secure, it's best ot just assume everybody will try it, and act accordingly. no matter what you do people will always be able to double spend with a finney attack.
1069 2014-05-06 14:47:02 <sipa> credit cards aren't security either for a merchant, but the risks can be assessed
1070 2014-05-06 14:47:26 <sipa> the network today aims to provide some protection against 0-conf doublespends, but without guarantees
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1074 2014-05-06 14:47:59 <sipa> that is useful functionality, but once significantly players in the network drop that mechanism, it's probably meaningless to keep providing it at all
1075 2014-05-06 14:48:11 <survic> trying it will always end in tears.
1076 2014-05-06 14:48:19 <sipa> i have no idea what timeframe we're looking at
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1078 2014-05-06 14:49:06 <dgenr8> sirvic: leave some room for successful innovation.  that's why you're here isn't it?
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1080 2014-05-06 14:49:42 <dgenr8> survic: sorry to misspell
1081 2014-05-06 14:49:49 <sipa> i think it's a losing fight
1082 2014-05-06 14:49:58 <sipa> but for now, there may be value in trying to keep it
1083 2014-05-06 14:50:38 <survic> dgenr8: no matter how much positive thought and yellow daisies are thrown at the problem, there's just no way of preventing double spends. that's why the block chain exists in the first place. I'm all for improvements, but implimenting fragile detection systems is just asking for trouble.
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1087 2014-05-06 14:54:48 <dgenr8> poor yelp.  they thought it was interesting that local merchants accept bitcoin, and started advertising it
1088 2014-05-06 14:55:06 <dgenr8> do they need to be taught a lesson, like satoshibones?
1089 2014-05-06 14:57:00 <dgenr8> i appreciate the skepticism.  clearly the onus is on anyone who thinks they can improve resistance to these attacks, to prove it with a test network
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1124 2014-05-06 15:45:56 <Someguy123> aschildbach ?
1125 2014-05-06 15:46:06 <aschildbach> yo
1126 2014-05-06 15:46:11 <Someguy123> oh awesome you're here
1127 2014-05-06 15:46:22 <Someguy123> can you tell me why main-net requires JDK 1.7 but testnet plays nicely with 1.8?
1128 2014-05-06 15:46:41 Milanito has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1129 2014-05-06 15:46:58 <Someguy123> I only just finished downloading all the android SDK stuff to get android wallet to compile, but then I found out that main-net bitcoin wallet refuses to compile on JDK 1.8, but testnet compiles and works fine
1130 2014-05-06 15:46:58 <aschildbach> They should all compile with 1.6 -- in fact I never used 1.7 or 1.8
1131 2014-05-06 15:47:19 <aschildbach> What's happening on 1.8?
1132 2014-05-06 15:47:39 <Someguy123> hang on, I'll pastebin
1133 2014-05-06 15:48:00 <Someguy123> aschildbach, http://pastebin.com/wApj4KR8
1134 2014-05-06 15:48:07 bonks_ is now known as bonks
1135 2014-05-06 15:48:17 <Someguy123> for whatever reason, with -Prelease it refuses to compile. but the testnet version works fine on JDK 1.8 for some strange reason
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1138 2014-05-06 15:48:56 <Someguy123> note: this is the BitID version, but I believe they haven't made too many changes to the core of bitcoinwallet itself
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1140 2014-05-06 15:49:42 <aschildbach> Urgs this is Windows...
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1145 2014-05-06 15:50:06 <Someguy123> yeah... I don't feel like setting up a java dev environment on my ubuntu VM after doing all of this
1146 2014-05-06 15:50:13 <aschildbach> Which maven version are you using? (mvn -version)
1147 2014-05-06 15:50:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Someguy123: that paste is flagged as the wrong language
1148 2014-05-06 15:50:30 <Someguy123> aschildbach, 3.0.5
1149 2014-05-06 15:50:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It thinks it's Java
1150 2014-05-06 15:50:35 <Someguy123> I had to downgrade it because of the dependancies
1151 2014-05-06 15:51:05 <aschildbach> Yeah that's right, I could not upgrade to 3.1 because Ubuntu still ships with 3.0.5
1152 2014-05-06 15:51:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|fixed: http://pastebin.com/6Cu9gQZD
1153 2014-05-06 15:51:38 <Someguy123> yeah, with 3.1+ it refuses to install without changing a bunch of things, so I downgraded to 3.0.5
1154 2014-05-06 15:52:06 <aschildbach> Guess I need to have a look at the bitid source and the prod branch in particular.
1155 2014-05-06 15:52:20 <Someguy123> aschildbach, https://github.com/bitid/bitcoin-wallet
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1157 2014-05-06 15:52:51 <Someguy123> hmm wait, the prod branch? pretty sure I'm on master...
1158 2014-05-06 15:53:15 <Someguy123> yeah, they never touched your prod branch
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1160 2014-05-06 15:53:37 <aschildbach> Yeah the prod branch contains a number of commits I rebase on master for a release
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1163 2014-05-06 15:54:12 <Someguy123> i'm not a java dev btw, I'm trying to implement BitID, but the android walet is the only option right now -_-
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1165 2014-05-06 15:55:46 <aschildbach> Ok their master branch looks like it should compile without changes
1166 2014-05-06 15:56:16 <aschildbach> They are not using the prod branch
1167 2014-05-06 15:56:28 <Someguy123> hmmm
1168 2014-05-06 15:56:34 <aschildbach> How did you switch to mainnet?
1169 2014-05-06 15:56:52 <Someguy123> all I did was add -Prelease to the mvn clean install
1170 2014-05-06 15:57:07 <Someguy123> without -Prelease it compiles for testnet and runs just fine in my bluestacks
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1172 2014-05-06 15:57:12 <aschildbach> That doesn't switch to Mainnet
1173 2014-05-06 15:57:31 <Someguy123> "The productive version uses Mainnet"
1174 2014-05-06 15:57:46 <aschildbach> I suggest these commands:
1175 2014-05-06 15:57:53 <aschildbach> git checkout prod
1176 2014-05-06 15:57:56 <aschildbach> git rebase master
1177 2014-05-06 15:58:05 <aschildbach> mvn clean install
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1179 2014-05-06 15:58:41 <Someguy123> okay and without -Prelease?
1180 2014-05-06 15:58:42 <aschildbach> The prod branch has the 4 commits necessary to switch from testnet to mainnet
1181 2014-05-06 15:58:59 <aschildbach> All the -Prelease does is optimize with proguard
1182 2014-05-06 15:59:06 <Someguy123> oh -_-
1183 2014-05-06 15:59:14 <Someguy123> well it looks like it's compiling now, thanks aschildbach
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1185 2014-05-06 15:59:53 <aschildbach> Bit frankly, since bitid is an experiment, why don't you stay with testnet for now?
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1193 2014-05-06 16:06:58 <Someguy123> aschildbach, BitID doesn't involve coin movement, so it's not exactly a problem
1194 2014-05-06 16:07:07 <Someguy123> i'll be doing it with empty addresses either way
1195 2014-05-06 16:08:07 <survic> Someguy123: if the signatures are generated badly you'll expose the private key of that address, and in some wallets that'll reveal the private keys of every other address.
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1197 2014-05-06 16:10:42 <Someguy123> survic, well I suppose I just won't put any of my real keys in it.
1198 2014-05-06 16:10:56 <Someguy123> I'll be testing it in bluestacks (an android emulator) anyway.
1199 2014-05-06 16:11:14 <survic> Someguy123: sure, just pointing out that you can expose more than one keys with a mistake like that
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1201 2014-05-06 16:13:14 <petertodd> dgenr8: the big issue w/ trying to prevent doublespending is many of the solutions, e.g. block blacklists, have the side-effect of centralizing the underlying bitcoin network. that's ultimately why I'm so in favor of replace-by-fee: accept that unconfirmed tx's don't work, and get people onto solutions that don't mess with bitcoin itself
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1213 2014-05-06 16:21:00 <waxwing> noob question, is "replace by fee" already possible for miners? i presume so? they just have to patch the code, is that it?
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1215 2014-05-06 16:21:21 <petertodd> waxwing: yup, I'm running it locally myself w/ p2pool
1216 2014-05-06 16:21:27 <survic> eligius allows child pays for parent as well.
1217 2014-05-06 16:21:56 <waxwing> ah interesting idea. to unstuck-ify a tx
1218 2014-05-06 16:22:05 <survic> a child transaction with a large fee will cover a zero fee transaction it depends on. eligius evaluates chains of transactions.
1219 2014-05-06 16:22:47 <petertodd> waxwing: and something I didn't realize until I actually tried it was that tx propagation is sufficiently unreliable that replace-by-fee double-spends works ~1% of the time even without miner support. it also works well for bumping fees to get a struck tx unstuck, and it looks like some clients are out there that already do that
1220 2014-05-06 16:23:53 <petertodd> survic: though note that cpfp only works if the parent tx got to the miner; without changes to the way tx's are relayed around the network it can't, for instance, be used to reliably get a zero-fee/zero-priority tx mined
1221 2014-05-06 16:24:32 <waxwing> it's a weird tension, the anarchic free market of transaction acceptance seems  philosophically sound, but it could easily make for very confusing user experiences
1222 2014-05-06 16:25:19 <petertodd> meh, better to accept that the underlying system is an anarchic free market and focus on making the UI better at higher layers
1223 2014-05-06 16:25:27 <survic> petertodd: right.
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1225 2014-05-06 16:25:55 <waxwing> agreement all round :)
1226 2014-05-06 16:26:19 <waxwing> but those building the second layer up have to solve some interesting technical problems
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1228 2014-05-06 16:26:56 <petertodd> waxwing: yes, otoh I've found even my own success rate at solving those technical problems to be remarkably high
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1380 2014-05-06 18:44:42 <lechuga_> people with interest in bip70, could you please review: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/60
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1382 2014-05-06 18:46:13 <lechuga_> i feel like it's a reasonable one line change but i've been surprised before
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1384 2014-05-06 18:51:02 <lechuga_> jgarzik: has implications for bitpay
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1507 2014-05-06 20:55:16 <CoinHeavy> How can calls to bitcoind be used to calculate block times and hashrate?  Are there good standard practices for these two?
1508 2014-05-06 20:55:38 <sipa> block times? you mean block timestamps?
1509 2014-05-06 20:55:48 <sipa> those aren't calculated; they're stored in the block headers
1510 2014-05-06 20:55:49 <CoinHeavy> how long the last block took to be found
1511 2014-05-06 20:56:02 <CoinHeavy> so i would do something like, getinfo, note block number
1512 2014-05-06 20:56:08 <CoinHeavy> lookup that block’s hash
1513 2014-05-06 20:56:13 <CoinHeavy> get info about that block via hash
1514 2014-05-06 20:56:19 <sipa> you compare the block's timestamp with that of its parent
1515 2014-05-06 20:56:32 <sipa> but timestamps are not accurate
1516 2014-05-06 20:56:39 <sipa> they can go back in time to a certain extent even
1517 2014-05-06 20:57:04 <CoinHeavy> so I should use a rolling average to smooth the inaccuracy?
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1519 2014-05-06 20:57:51 <gmaxwell> CoinHeavy: you haven't said what you're trying to accomplish, so no one can help you
1520 2014-05-06 20:58:19 <CoinHeavy> my apologies for not being clearer.  I’m looking to regularly calculate how long it is actually taking blocks to be discovered.
1521 2014-05-06 20:58:27 <CoinHeavy> I know the target is 10 minutes but the reality varies from this
1522 2014-05-06 20:58:36 <sipa> the reality is even expected to vary from that
1523 2014-05-06 20:58:44 <sipa> even on average, as long as the hashrate is increasing
1524 2014-05-06 20:58:57 <CoinHeavy> using calls to bitcoind, I’m curious if there is a good standard way to go about tracking time between blocks
1525 2014-05-06 20:59:03 <sipa> anyway, bitcoind has a gethashespersec RPC call
1526 2014-05-06 20:59:15 <CoinHeavy> that is the network hash rate?
1527 2014-05-06 20:59:20 <sipa> wait, that's for the internal miner
1528 2014-05-06 20:59:23 <CoinHeavy> right
1529 2014-05-06 20:59:33 <sipa> there is one for the network hashrate too
1530 2014-05-06 20:59:44 <CoinHeavy> hash_rate = (blocks_found/expected_blocks*difficulty * 2**32 / 600)
1531 2014-05-06 20:59:46 <sipa> getnetworkhashps
1532 2014-05-06 20:59:49 <CoinHeavy> as per http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/11139/how-is-the-network-hash-rate-calculated
1533 2014-05-06 21:00:06 <CoinHeavy> oh nice! there is an rpc call.  excellent.
1534 2014-05-06 21:00:10 <CoinHeavy> sipa: thank you
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1536 2014-05-06 21:00:56 <sipa> it takes difficulty changes in the window into account etc
1537 2014-05-06 21:01:03 <sipa> it does not extrapolate though
1538 2014-05-06 21:01:18 <sipa> so it's expected that it will always result in a too low number, while hashrate is growing
1539 2014-05-06 21:01:36 <CoinHeavy> I’m sorry, I don’t follow that distinction.  Could you please elaborate?
1540 2014-05-06 21:01:54 <sipa> if you look at a window of 2 weeks to determine the hashrate
1541 2014-05-06 21:02:03 <sipa> 2 weeks ago, the true hashrate was lower than today
1542 2014-05-06 21:02:09 <gmaxwell> sipa: is there a reason https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3637 hasn't been merged.
1543 2014-05-06 21:02:22 <sipa> CoinHeavy: so looking at the average will not tell you today's hashrate
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1545 2014-05-06 21:02:30 <sipa> CoinHeavy: only the average hashrate of the past two weeks, which is lower
1546 2014-05-06 21:03:17 <sipa> gmaxwell: not really, but there's no actual effect of it either
1547 2014-05-06 21:03:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: i think wumpus wants to merge it for 0.10
1548 2014-05-06 21:03:58 <gmaxwell> I also thought https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2784 was merged already and was surprised it wasn't.
1549 2014-05-06 21:04:28 <sipa> ugh, that's long been outdated
1550 2014-05-06 21:05:01 <gmaxwell> It's still a good thing we should be doing.
1551 2014-05-06 21:05:05 <sipa> yeah
1552 2014-05-06 21:05:55 <sipa> i never investigated why it caused many disconnects
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1554 2014-05-06 21:06:19 <ajweiss> i'm looking to familiarize myself with the core code a bit... any annoying bugs you guys feel like suggesting?
1555 2014-05-06 21:06:37 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think we actually have a lot of bad peers out there and that it's being helpful, but it's hard to be completely sure.
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1581 2014-05-06 21:28:28 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, there's a lot of "client" nodes on the network that dont respond to ping with pong
1582 2014-05-06 21:29:40 <gmaxwell> 'client' or DOS attacking / spynode weirdness...  bitcoinj responds, sooo.
1583 2014-05-06 21:30:04 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i think it's mostly spynodes
1584 2014-05-06 21:30:21 <phantomcircuit> afaict there's some researchers doing silly things
1585 2014-05-06 21:30:45 <phantomcircuit> their results will likely be entirely useless though since there's other researchers doing equally silly things
1586 2014-05-06 21:31:01 <phantomcircuit> ie least controlled experiment ever
1587 2014-05-06 21:32:15 <gmaxwell> in general researching on the public network is a bad idea.
1588 2014-05-06 21:32:18 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/inbound_connection_management
1589 2014-05-06 21:33:03 <gmaxwell> I note that I don't see that crap on tor, which was one of the reasons I moved my nodes to all be onion plus addnode only.
1590 2014-05-06 21:33:14 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i think they're all trying to write papers on how easy it is to trace bitcoin transactions on the public network
1591 2014-05-06 21:33:30 <phantomcircuit> i suspect they will mostly be seeing each others weird txs though
1592 2014-05-06 21:34:26 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah i had a patch at somepoint which accepted the new connection and then applied some simple rules to determine which peer to disconnect
1593 2014-05-06 21:34:42 <phantomcircuit> it basically amounted to disconnecting peers in the same subnet though
1594 2014-05-06 21:35:59 <gmaxwell> yea, I propose instead to have a couple criterias of connections to protect (some which only allow one connect per address or netgroup)— things like low latency, longest connection time, random netgroup preferences, etc, and then the rest are kicked off by chance.
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1597 2014-05-06 21:37:21 <phantomcircuit> yeah looks like i rebased the patch out on accident
1598 2014-05-06 21:37:26 <phantomcircuit> shrug
1599 2014-05-06 21:37:32 <gmaxwell> e.g. if the attackers strategy is to suddenly connect a bunch and kick off all your peers, the fact that you're protecting a few of the longest connected kills the strategy. but if the attackers strategy was to open lots of long standing connections to fill you up, then the fact that only some of your peers are selected by longest prevents that.
1600 2014-05-06 21:38:20 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah that's pretty close to what i was proposing in 2011 :P
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1602 2014-05-06 21:39:11 <sipa> instead of proposing, implement it :)
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1605 2014-05-06 21:39:44 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i have actually several times
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1607 2014-05-06 21:39:52 <phantomcircuit> never quite works right though
1608 2014-05-06 21:39:56 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you never submitted a pull. :)
1609 2014-05-06 21:39:58 <gmaxwell> ah
1610 2014-05-06 21:40:13 <phantomcircuit> i couldn't ever get the interaction with the initial block sync right
1611 2014-05-06 21:40:32 <phantomcircuit> so i'd disconnect the peer being used and then stall out for like 20 minutes
1612 2014-05-06 21:40:33 <gmaxwell> oh well thats easy, protect the syncnode.
1613 2014-05-06 21:40:53 * gmaxwell adds that to the list
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1698 2014-05-06 22:59:16 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: you talked to amiller about researchers researching researchers?
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1702 2014-05-06 23:00:12 <petertodd> or as gmaxwell would say it "have you reached out regarding researchers researching researchers, regards?"
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1704 2014-05-06 23:01:19 <gmaxwell> Ah, someone saw that post.
1705 2014-05-06 23:01:53 <petertodd> heh, well I did post it to twitter
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1709 2014-05-06 23:04:07 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, yo dawg
1710 2014-05-06 23:04:35 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: sup
1711 2014-05-06 23:04:38 <phantomcircuit> no im unfortunately busy taking a giant pull request and breaking it into smaller commits/pr's with git add -i
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1713 2014-05-06 23:04:39 <phantomcircuit> :(
1714 2014-05-06 23:04:56 <petertodd> haha, hey, at least you can do that on git...
1715 2014-05-06 23:05:11 * petertodd used to use CVS in the dark ages
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1717 2014-05-06 23:05:57 <phantomcircuit> yeah could be worse...
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1719 2014-05-06 23:06:32 <phantomcircuit> 22 files changed, 1166 insertions(+), 1619 deletions(-)
1720 2014-05-06 23:06:34 <phantomcircuit> >.>
1721 2014-05-06 23:06:35 <phantomcircuit> <.<
1722 2014-05-06 23:06:39 <petertodd> ha, good job
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1724 2014-05-06 23:08:08 <phantomcircuit> 21 files changed, 1165 insertions(+), 1617 deletions(-)
1725 2014-05-06 23:08:11 <phantomcircuit> only forever to go
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1727 2014-05-06 23:08:15 <petertodd> lol
1728 2014-05-06 23:08:46 <petertodd> people forget that the main purpose of revision control systems is to act as a communication medium, not to control revisions
1729 2014-05-06 23:09:34 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, that file literally had a single line of whitespace added
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1737 2014-05-06 23:12:31 <gmaxwell> petertodd: pfft, next you're going to say that source code is a dialog between programmers.
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1739 2014-05-06 23:13:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: the electrical engineering equivalent, circuit diagrams, is modulo EDA software...
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