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  31 2014-05-07 00:30:11 <seldegav1o> Hi, is anyone able to help me understand raw transactions, specifically how to parse Script?
  32 2014-05-07 00:33:01 <seldegav1o> I'm trying to figure out what the input script does for this transaction (https://blockchain.info/tx/14be6fff8c6014f7c9493b4a6e4a741699173f39d74431b6b844fcb41ebb9984) and see that it starts with a 30. is the 30 an opcode or another value?
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 148 2014-05-07 03:00:33 <dabura667> Hi all, can anyone help me calculate the Y value for a compressed pubkey in python?
 149 2014-05-07 03:00:44 <dabura667> I tried math.sqrt(x*x*x + 7) % P but it gives me 0.0
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 151 2014-05-07 03:02:49 <dabura667> for my test case I am using the following compressed pubkey 0x023cbf5edf6a8477b40e0ee9892b808b91b36247f03812f38b1b549c297a02bd8c
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 225 2014-05-07 03:57:04 <mappum> will any pools accept nonstandard transactions that have a sufficiently large fee?
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 227 2014-05-07 03:57:59 <Luke-Jr> mappum: Eligius generally, though there are still some rules to prevent spam etc
 228 2014-05-07 03:58:50 <mappum> that's it? they are only 9% of the hashrate
 229 2014-05-07 03:59:14 <mappum> i mean, if i just put txs out there with a 0.01+ fee will anyone automatically pick it up?
 230 2014-05-07 03:59:50 <mappum> or do i need to manually negotiate it with pools
 231 2014-05-07 03:59:57 <petertodd> mappum: non-standard transactions aren't relayed, so you need to manually negotiate
 232 2014-05-07 04:00:36 <mappum> ah, so is the real approach to make a BIP and get it in core?
 233 2014-05-07 04:00:45 <petertodd> that
 234 2014-05-07 04:00:48 <petertodd> that's one approach
 235 2014-05-07 04:01:04 <petertodd> what are you trying to do exactly?
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 237 2014-05-07 04:01:49 <mappum> p2p trade
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 239 2014-05-07 04:02:02 <petertodd> ah, what does your script look like?
 240 2014-05-07 04:02:40 <mappum> well i haven't started developing anything, just thinking about it, but it would look like this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Atomic_cross-chain_trading
 241 2014-05-07 04:03:21 <petertodd> I'd suggest making the application first on testnet; mainnet support can be arranged
 242 2014-05-07 04:03:39 <mappum> hmm, but i would have to be able to get it accepted on altcoin chains, too
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 246 2014-05-07 04:04:09 <petertodd> mainnet_testnet:altcoin_testnet is possible - most alts have their own testnets without IsStandard()
 247 2014-05-07 04:04:18 <petertodd> also last I checked namecoin doesn't actually have an IsStandard() rule
 248 2014-05-07 04:04:23 <mappum> awesome, good to know
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 250 2014-05-07 04:05:52 <petertodd> the thing with IsStandard() is you only need a pool or two to change the rules to make formerly non-standard tx's useful
 251 2014-05-07 04:07:49 <mappum> right, but right now it will take Eligius almost 2 hours per block
 252 2014-05-07 04:07:55 <mappum> i guess that's not terrible
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 259 2014-05-07 04:12:29 <Luke-Jr> mappum: BIPs don't necessarily get anything in bitcoind; but they're a prerequisite in most cases
 260 2014-05-07 04:12:50 <Luke-Jr> mappum: have you followed the cross-chain trading BIP discussions on the dev ML?
 261 2014-05-07 04:13:13 <mappum> Luke-Jr: nope, is that recent?
 262 2014-05-07 04:13:14 <petertodd> mappum: I suggested a safe way to remove the IsStandard() limits on scripts pretty much entirely there
 263 2014-05-07 04:14:13 <Luke-Jr> mappum: somewhat recent, yes
 264 2014-05-07 04:15:53 <petertodd> mappum: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg05153.html
 265 2014-05-07 04:16:46 <mappum> thanks
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 299 2014-05-07 04:43:40 <btcgjk> anyone need a hardware programmer?
 300 2014-05-07 04:45:35 <petertodd> mappum: speaking of how easy it is to get strange tx's mined, here's 500uBTC for free: 26bde88051cbe283b68c5130f4e14c86e750e7eba79c3405ec7afb09bb924b95
 301 2014-05-07 04:45:54 <petertodd> mappum: (writing some checkmultisig tests and wanted a starting point)
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 303 2014-05-07 04:48:21 <mappum> it's just OP_CHECKMULTISIG?
 304 2014-05-07 04:48:44 <petertodd> yup, and the input that was spent is just OP_CHECKMULTISIG encoded as a p2sh tx
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 306 2014-05-07 04:50:11 <petertodd> (note that blockchain.info's display of the transaction is screwed up, displaying OP_CHECKMULTISIG for the p2sh redeemScript instead of displaying it as a pushdata op)
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 339 2014-05-07 05:51:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|seldegav1o: the input script consists of two data pushes. First the signature and then the public key. 30 is the first byte of the signature. Blockchain.info doesn't show it, but before the signature and before the pubkey (the one starting with 04) are data push opcodes.
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 344 2014-05-07 05:56:27 <zone117x> why is it that sometimes when checking the status of a block's coinbase tx, the results of gettransaction are odd?
 345 2014-05-07 05:56:45 <zone117x> odd as in they contain all the usual fields except the blockhash and the details array is empty
 346 2014-05-07 05:56:50 <zone117x> and the confirmatoins field is -1
 347 2014-05-07 05:57:11 <zone117x> I'm assuming it means the block was orphaned in just weird way?
 348 2014-05-07 05:57:48 <phantomcircuit> i would not advice assuming anything there
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 359 2014-05-07 06:13:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|petertodd: what's -46?
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 363 2014-05-07 06:21:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, I see -- it's op_checkmultisig. Where did -46 come from?
 364 2014-05-07 06:22:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, can checkmultisig do a 0-of-n?
 365 2014-05-07 06:22:27 <mapppum> michagogo|cloud: that's what i'm trying to do, it appears not
 366 2014-05-07 06:22:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or do we need to figure out how to sign the tx with an arbitrary key?
 367 2014-05-07 06:22:47 <justanotheruser> mapppum: invalid?
 368 2014-05-07 06:22:54 <mapppum> yep
 369 2014-05-07 06:23:24 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: I would assume with an 0 of n (if it was valid) the scriptsig wouldn't contain any keys
 370 2014-05-07 06:23:36 <mapppum> i'm trying to peer with a node that accepts nonstandard txs, but maybe i'm doing that wrong
 371 2014-05-07 06:23:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: it would contain n keys
 372 2014-05-07 06:23:55 <justanotheruser> mapppum: testnet or mainnet
 373 2014-05-07 06:24:02 <mapppum> mainnet
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 375 2014-05-07 06:24:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No keys would be 0-of-0
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 377 2014-05-07 06:24:06 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: I mean signatures
 378 2014-05-07 06:24:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right
 379 2014-05-07 06:24:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If 0-of-n is possible, which i'd assume is not the case, that would be no-sigs
 380 2014-05-07 06:24:53 <justanotheruser> I wonder if 2 of 1 is valid
 381 2014-05-07 06:25:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No
 382 2014-05-07 06:25:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Pretty sure it's not
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 384 2014-05-07 06:25:31 <mapppum> eyeballing the code it looks like 0-of-0 should work
 385 2014-05-07 06:25:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Unfortunately, I'm not at my computer atm, and I'll have a meeting soon
 386 2014-05-07 06:25:46 <justanotheruser> I wonder what other transactions have questionable validity
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 388 2014-05-07 06:25:57 <mapppum> the scriptsig should just be 0001000100, right?
 389 2014-05-07 06:26:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So I probably won't be the it's to get it
 390 2014-05-07 06:26:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The first*
 391 2014-05-07 06:26:15 <mapppum> *OP_0 0x00 0x00
 392 2014-05-07 06:26:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|GL
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 396 2014-05-07 06:33:04 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: yes it can: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3860
 397 2014-05-07 06:33:56 <justanotheruser> petertodd: what about 2 of 1? Any idea?
 398 2014-05-07 06:34:16 <petertodd> justanotheruser: that's supposed to fail immediately
 399 2014-05-07 06:34:27 <petertodd> I'm actually writing some unit tests right now to verify that
 400 2014-05-07 06:36:06 <mapppum> so 0 0 0 is supposed to work, why is it getting rejected? :(
 401 2014-05-07 06:36:07 <justanotheruser> petertodd: cool. Be sure to include -1 of 1 :p
 402 2014-05-07 06:36:15 <petertodd> yeah, I'm doing that too
 403 2014-05-07 06:36:27 <justanotheruser> Unless it automatically evaluates m of n to unsigned ints
 404 2014-05-07 06:36:51 <justanotheruser> mapppum: on the testnet or main net?
 405 2014-05-07 06:37:08 <mapppum> main
 406 2014-05-07 06:37:16 <petertodd> justanotheruser: the n and m args are converted from bytes to ints via CastToBigNum(), so they are evaluated as signed
 407 2014-05-07 06:37:25 <mapppum> i'm supposedly peering with a node that accepts everything
 408 2014-05-07 06:37:27 <petertodd> justanotheruser: that'd be a fun bug in an alt-implementation though...
 409 2014-05-07 06:37:38 <petertodd> mappum: the one from the wiki?
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 411 2014-05-07 06:37:44 <mapppum> yeah
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 413 2014-05-07 06:37:52 <petertodd> mappum: I'm not sure that one actually ever gets to eligius
 414 2014-05-07 06:38:04 <justanotheruser> petertodd: are you implying alts would make a change that big?
 415 2014-05-07 06:38:12 <petertodd> justanotheruser: accidentally, sure
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 417 2014-05-07 06:38:45 <mapppum> well how does the send-to-network logic work? bitcoind says "TX Rejected", idk if it tries every peer
 418 2014-05-07 06:39:05 <petertodd> mappum: oh, then it's being rejected locally - you need to disable IsStandard() locally too
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 421 2014-05-07 06:39:42 <justanotheruser> mapppum: you should try this on the test net, but if you don't want to, use the free relay policy node
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 423 2014-05-07 06:40:58 <mapppum> so i just rebuild with isstandard disabled?
 424 2014-05-07 06:41:04 <petertodd> yup
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 426 2014-05-07 06:41:55 <justanotheruser> Is eligius still the only node connected to the free relay policy node?
 427 2014-05-07 06:42:02 <justanotheruser> *miner node
 428 2014-05-07 06:42:09 <petertodd> probably
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 432 2014-05-07 06:46:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|As an experiment, I tried manually putting this together: 0100000001954b92bb09fb7aec05349ca7ebe750e7864ce1f430518cb683e2cb5180e8bd2600000000050001000100ffffffff010000000000000000016a00000000
 433 2014-05-07 06:46:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|eligius duesn't seem to like it
 434 2014-05-07 06:46:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|doesn't*
 435 2014-05-07 06:47:20 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: I already spent it :)
 436 2014-05-07 06:47:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ah
 437 2014-05-07 06:47:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|that'll do it :P
 438 2014-05-07 06:47:37 <justanotheruser> michagogo|cloud: how do you know they don't like it (out of curiosity)
 439 2014-05-07 06:47:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|justanotheruser: the transaction was rejected when I sent it to them
 440 2014-05-07 06:47:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|g2g
 441 2014-05-07 06:48:00 <mapppum> damn, i wanted to grab that, i lost because my own node betrayed me
 442 2014-05-07 06:48:13 <justanotheruser> How much was it?
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 444 2014-05-07 06:48:32 <petertodd> mapppum: here's another: eef973bd1d44384cec01e91727b783bd58b4eac6efe318d0db4dd0fd678ae8a3
 445 2014-05-07 06:48:45 <petertodd> mapppum: (p2sh version of OP_CHECKMULTISIG)
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 449 2014-05-07 06:56:20 <mapppum> petertodd: wait, so what hashes to that?
 450 2014-05-07 06:56:44 <petertodd> mapppum: bitcoind decodescript ae
 451 2014-05-07 06:57:07 <petertodd> mapppum: this might be useful: https://github.com/petertodd/python-bitcoinlib/blob/master/examples/spend-p2sh-txout.py
 452 2014-05-07 06:59:02 <mapppum> ah, i see. i though HASH160 was just ripemd160
 453 2014-05-07 06:59:11 <petertodd> yup
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 455 2014-05-07 07:00:11 <petertodd> unrelated: if satoshi had included a SIGHASH_DONT_SIGN_TXID then OP_CODESEPARATOR would actually be quite useful for gait's key signing stuff, among other things
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 502 2014-05-07 08:06:23 <survic> petertodd: must be anoying being Satoshi. you'd be kicking yourself for not adding feature X, or silently screaming at the current developers for not doing things your way.
 503 2014-05-07 08:07:46 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 504 2014-05-07 08:07:50 <jcorgan> or marveling at how your "fun" escaped to become what it is today :)
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 508 2014-05-07 08:11:48 <proxy1> is there any documentation available on cross compiling the windows qt binary in linux using mingw?
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 510 2014-05-07 08:13:31 <wumpus> proxy1: I'd suggest using gitian, which is the system used to build the release binaries
 511 2014-05-07 08:13:49 <wumpus> proxy1: it does exactly that, but automates all the steps like building dependencies
 512 2014-05-07 08:14:10 <proxy1> thanks very much ill check it out
 513 2014-05-07 08:15:49 <wumpus> see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/contrib/gitian-descriptors/README.md  and doc/release-process.md
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 598 2014-05-07 10:30:50 <sipa> dabura667: you need a modular square root, not a real one
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 601 2014-05-07 10:33:27 <dabura667> sipa: thanks. I figured it out with help from someone on #darkwallet
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 618 2014-05-07 10:53:05 <kdomanski_> sipa: what do you think about replacing every ambiguous type (int, unsigned int) with unambiguous type wherever it makes sense and replacing every C-style cast with static_cast/reinterpret_cast ?
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 620 2014-05-07 10:53:52 <sipa> kdomanski_: sure
 621 2014-05-07 10:54:08 <sipa> kdomanski_: though i find c++ style casts a bit annoyingly long to read often
 622 2014-05-07 10:54:43 <kdomanski_> yeah, but C-style are difficult to grep for and there's going to be a lot of casts to remove
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 626 2014-05-07 10:55:03 <sipa> but at least all serializable integer fields in classes should be int/uint 8/16/32/64
 627 2014-05-07 10:55:12 <kdomanski_> yeah
 628 2014-05-07 10:55:18 <sipa> char may be an exception...
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 692 2014-05-07 12:23:23 <wumpus> I don't really like all-over-the-place changes that much
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 694 2014-05-07 12:24:07 <wumpus> let's not go over the top with replacing everything
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 696 2014-05-07 12:24:50 <wumpus> if you need to do it in the scope of solving another issue, sure, but changing just for the sake of some stylism, meh
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 701 2014-05-07 12:27:23 <wumpus> replacing int/unsigned int/etc with sized types makes sense for serialization, and network data structures, but please don't change every single one
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 706 2014-05-07 12:29:01 <sipa> wumpus: wild suggestion: introduce new types in serialize.h for the 8 int types, and have only those serializable
 707 2014-05-07 12:29:24 <sipa> and if you need a serializable int, you must use those
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 709 2014-05-07 12:30:48 <wumpus> sipa: I'm not sure; how would that be different than the stdint types?
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 711 2014-05-07 12:31:37 <sipa> it would prevent you from writing an int somewhere and expecting a consistent serialization for it
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 713 2014-05-07 12:32:29 <wumpus> right, but can't we force using the (sized) stdint types?
 714 2014-05-07 12:32:44 <sipa> those are typedefs
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 716 2014-05-07 12:33:46 <wumpus> right, so if you want to serialize an values you'd have to use
 717 2014-05-07 12:33:49 <gavinandresen> Yet Another Integer Definition Just Because We're Very Special seems like a bad idea.
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 719 2014-05-07 12:34:10 <gavinandresen> int64, int64t, long long, qint64 ……..   btc_int64  ???
 720 2014-05-07 12:34:12 <wumpus> so serialization would look like this: out << int16(x) << int32(y) << int64(t)
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 722 2014-05-07 12:34:20 <wumpus> that'd be sort of nice
 723 2014-05-07 12:34:39 <wumpus> not too distant from just using out.writeInt16() out.writeInt32() like in the good old days tho :)
 724 2014-05-07 12:34:44 <sipa> wumpus: that's another way
 725 2014-05-07 12:35:13 <wumpus> because we don't really want type overloading here, we want to be explicit
 726 2014-05-07 12:35:37 <sipa> but i mean like class btc_int64 : public int64 { implement serialize... }
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 729 2014-05-07 12:36:03 <sipa> so fields of structs that have a defined serialization would use those types, and not wrap on serialization
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 731 2014-05-07 12:37:31 <wumpus> when wrapping on serialization (or having specific functions for specific bit sizes) would move the specification to serialization time, instead of having it potentially somewhere else where the field is defined
 732 2014-05-07 12:37:42 <sipa> indeed
 733 2014-05-07 12:38:23 <sipa> we need int58_t
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 735 2014-05-07 12:38:39 <wumpus> having our own integer type dfinitions sounds like a bottomless pit (you'd want to implement all operators too?)
 736 2014-05-07 12:38:44 <wumpus> hehe
 737 2014-05-07 12:38:52 <sipa> no, just derive from the existing ones
 738 2014-05-07 12:39:07 <t7> templated sized types?
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 740 2014-05-07 12:39:16 <t7> Int<58>
 741 2014-05-07 12:39:22 <wumpus> can you derive from base types like int?
 742 2014-05-07 12:39:27 <sipa> i assume so?
 743 2014-05-07 12:40:20 <sipa> but perhaps explicit serializer wrappers is cleaner
 744 2014-05-07 12:40:26 <wumpus> I don't think so
 745 2014-05-07 12:40:29 <wumpus> yes, agreed
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 748 2014-05-07 12:41:54 <sipa> seems you can't, indeed
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 751 2014-05-07 12:46:24 <kdomanski> lol, I found beauties like assert(nSize >= 0) where nSize should be unsigned anyway
 752 2014-05-07 12:46:45 <wumpus> well it doesn't hurt...
 753 2014-05-07 12:47:56 <epscy> sanity check
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 757 2014-05-07 12:48:15 <epscy> it's good to do once in a while at certain points
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 759 2014-05-07 12:48:36 <sipa> assert(sizeof(int) >= 0)
 760 2014-05-07 12:48:45 <epscy> heh
 761 2014-05-07 12:48:47 <survic> assert(1 > 0)
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 763 2014-05-07 12:49:18 <SomeoneWeird> assert(0 == 0) ??
 764 2014-05-07 12:49:21 <wumpus> heh https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4081
 765 2014-05-07 12:50:34 <kdomanski> it makes sense if nSize is int
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 767 2014-05-07 12:50:50 <kdomanski> but if I change it to uint64_t...nope
 768 2014-05-07 12:51:51 <wumpus> be careful with overflows/underflows and such if you change signed to unsigned... indeed, n>=0 is always true for unsigned numbers but it may get veeery large :p
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 771 2014-05-07 12:53:02 <kdomanski> the I would add an assert after every operation that would yield negative size
 772 2014-05-07 12:53:04 <kdomanski> *then
 773 2014-05-07 12:53:58 <kdomanski> not to mention the number of implicit conversions and signed-to-unsigned comparisons in the current codebase that scares the crap out of me
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 777 2014-05-07 12:57:42 <survic> the monsanto of the nasal voles.
 778 2014-05-07 12:57:45 <survic> uh.
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 782 2014-05-07 12:59:13 <sipa> kdomanski: please don't change semantics at the same time
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 784 2014-05-07 12:59:55 <sipa> changing int types for equivalent and less ambiguous ones where it makes sense is one thing
 785 2014-05-07 13:00:02 <wumpus> sipa: agreed
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 787 2014-05-07 13:00:13 <kdomanski> please elaborate
 788 2014-05-07 13:00:22 <CheckDavid> Lol survic
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 791 2014-05-07 13:00:31 <sipa> but changes to signed/unsigned may have far more serious results
 792 2014-05-07 13:00:45 <wumpus> 'equivalent' is the keyword here
 793 2014-05-07 13:00:58 <sipa> and yes, that can be improved too, but that is a semantics change
 794 2014-05-07 13:00:59 <wumpus> we don't actually want the code to change, but we do want to clarify it
 795 2014-05-07 13:01:17 <kdomanski> ok, it's great that you mentioned it
 796 2014-05-07 13:01:43 <kdomanski> because I already changed that in a few instances
 797 2014-05-07 13:01:44 <kdomanski> :P
 798 2014-05-07 13:01:47 <wumpus> (at least concerning the serialization and other sooper serious consensus stuff)
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 804 2014-05-07 13:05:40 <kdomanski> actually, the only places where I wanted to change signedness were functions CDataStream::write CDataStream::ignore and CDataStream::where the parameter is nSize
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 809 2014-05-07 13:09:59 <kdomanski> if think the parameter always takes an unsigned value, most often the result of a sizeof()
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 811 2014-05-07 13:13:00 <wumpus> that can always be changed later
 812 2014-05-07 13:13:11 <wumpus> better to focus on one thing at a time
 813 2014-05-07 13:13:19 <kdomanski> k
 814 2014-05-07 13:15:17 <sipa> a pr "change some types by strictly equivalent types" is easier to review than "change some types
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 817 2014-05-07 13:20:03 <hearn> i hate fees. they make everything so complicated
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 838 2014-05-07 13:39:32 <kdomanski> sooooo...what size is a 'long
 839 2014-05-07 13:39:44 <kdomanski> ' eqivalent to?
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 842 2014-05-07 13:41:20 <kdomanski> lol
 843 2014-05-07 13:42:07 <wumpus> at least: 32 bit on x86, 64 bit on amd64
 844 2014-05-07 13:42:36 <kdomanski> so it's basically an 'int'
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 846 2014-05-07 13:42:42 <sipa> int is 32-bit on both
 847 2014-05-07 13:42:45 <wumpus> it's the type that causes the most problems
 848 2014-05-07 13:42:50 <kdomanski> right
 849 2014-05-07 13:42:54 <sipa> but ehm
 850 2014-05-07 13:43:18 <sipa> that must mean we have no long's anywhere in serializable data structures?
 851 2014-05-07 13:44:54 <kdomanski> probably, yeah
 852 2014-05-07 13:45:52 <wumpus> yeah I don't think so
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 867 2014-05-07 13:59:17 <ematiu> Is there anyway to use SPV with stealth addresses? Is it possible to setup bloom filters to include addresses generated by a stealth address? (or the OP_RETURN for the nounce)
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 877 2014-05-07 14:25:08 <kdomanski> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/serialize.h#L425
 878 2014-05-07 14:25:11 <kdomanski> goddamn satoshi
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 882 2014-05-07 14:26:38 <joedoe-> could you please point me to difficulty retarget settings in source code?
 883 2014-05-07 14:27:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|joedoe-: don't know where it is off the top of my head, but try grepping for 2016
 884 2014-05-07 14:27:50 <joedoe-> ok thanks
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 887 2014-05-07 14:28:37 <sipa> that won't help
 888 2014-05-07 14:29:02 <joedoe-> yeah all I want is GetNetworkHashPS()
 889 2014-05-07 14:29:30 <sipa> joedoe-: that has nothing to do with the difficulty computation...
 890 2014-05-07 14:29:41 <sipa> well, they compute something similar
 891 2014-05-07 14:29:52 <sipa> but the difficulty retargetting is a network rule that can't be changed
 892 2014-05-07 14:30:19 <sipa> getnetworkhashps is a utility function that is intended for human consumption
 893 2014-05-07 14:30:31 <sipa> the protocol internally doesn't have a 'difficulty' concept, only a target
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 895 2014-05-07 14:30:34 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L1228
 896 2014-05-07 14:30:41 <sipa> that's the consensus code
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 899 2014-05-07 14:31:26 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/rpcmining.cpp#L57
 900 2014-05-07 14:31:31 <sipa> that's getnetworkhashps
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 904 2014-05-07 14:34:07 <fun> hey
 905 2014-05-07 14:34:27 <fun> when compiling btc 0.9 is it best to use Berkeley DB 4.8.30.tar.gz, with AES encryption (22M) ?
 906 2014-05-07 14:34:43 <sipa> we don't use bdb's built-in encryption
 907 2014-05-07 14:34:58 <joedoe-> ok static const int64_t nTargetTimespan = 14 * 24 * 60 * 60; // two weeks
 908 2014-05-07 14:35:01 <joedoe-> this is an answer
 909 2014-05-07 14:35:03 <fun> oki then Berkeley DB 4.8.30NC.tar.gz , without encryption (22M) ?
 910 2014-05-07 14:35:09 <sipa> fun: either is fine
 911 2014-05-07 14:35:16 <fun> cool
 912 2014-05-07 14:35:40 <fun> sipa any plans to move to 5.1? also if 5.1 is used what are the issues?
 913 2014-05-07 14:35:53 <fun> maybe there is some url that talks about it
 914 2014-05-07 14:35:58 <sipa> fun: no
 915 2014-05-07 14:36:05 <sipa> fun: use whatever you like
 916 2014-05-07 14:36:20 <sipa> fun: release binaries use 4.8 so that wallet files remain backward compatible
 917 2014-05-07 14:36:26 <fun> I read 5.1 means u cant move wallet to another btc install
 918 2014-05-07 14:36:55 <sipa> if you open the wallet file with a newer bdb version, it is upgraded to the new format, and the old version can't read it anymore
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 920 2014-05-07 14:37:11 <sipa> that's why released binaries always use the same version, but you can use whatever you like
 921 2014-05-07 14:37:31 <fun> ty
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 924 2014-05-07 14:42:30 <fun> sipa then ../dist/configure --enable-cxx and make and install? thing is many people want to use 0.9 but 4.8 is missing on latest linux :D
 925 2014-05-07 14:42:48 <sipa> fun: then use 5.1
 926 2014-05-07 14:42:52 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 927 2014-05-07 14:43:01 <sipa> or install a backport of 4.8
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 929 2014-05-07 14:43:56 <fun> sudo add-apt-repository ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin this?
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 931 2014-05-07 14:44:16 <fun> good idea :)
 932 2014-05-07 14:44:27 <sipa> i personally have used 5.1 for years now
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 935 2014-05-07 14:45:01 <fun> sipa ok using 5.1 have any consequences? like some apps for btc  might still rely on 4.8?
 936 2014-05-07 14:45:11 <fun> i would totally prefer 5`1 :D
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 939 2014-05-07 14:45:39 <sipa> no
 940 2014-05-07 14:45:47 <sipa> just use 5.1
 941 2014-05-07 14:45:47 <fun> ok then :)
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 943 2014-05-07 14:46:01 <sipa> it just means you can't use release binaries anymore
 944 2014-05-07 14:46:07 <sipa> unless you downgrade the wallet file again
 945 2014-05-07 14:46:24 <sipa> (db5.1_dump wallet51.dat | db4.8_load wallet48.dat)
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 948 2014-05-07 14:48:12 <fun> yes thats cool
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 950 2014-05-07 14:50:54 <fun> configure.ac:689: warning: 'INCLUDES' is the old name for 'AM_CPPFLAGS' (or '*_C
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 952 2014-05-07 14:51:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, does pywallet care about 4.8 vs 5.1?
 953 2014-05-07 14:51:43 <fun> compiling on ubuntu 14.04
 954 2014-05-07 14:51:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|fun: warnings are usually ignorable
 955 2014-05-07 14:52:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Unless something's not working
 956 2014-05-07 14:52:23 <fun> what if its something important?
 957 2014-05-07 14:52:34 <sipa> fun: it's not; it's just using an old name...
 958 2014-05-07 14:52:46 <sipa> feel free to fix it, if you understand the problem
 959 2014-05-07 14:52:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|fun: if it's important it'll probably be an error
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 961 2014-05-07 14:53:17 <fun> ok fine however it also stops after it, I installed automake maybe I need something else as well?
 962 2014-05-07 14:53:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And reading the message, sounds like it knows what you mean
 963 2014-05-07 14:53:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|fun: was that autogen.sh?
 964 2014-05-07 14:53:44 <fun> yes
 965 2014-05-07 14:53:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Run configure now.
 966 2014-05-07 14:53:50 <sipa> read doc/build-unix.md please
 967 2014-05-07 14:53:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(With any options you want)
 968 2014-05-07 14:54:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And yeah, read that if you haven't
 969 2014-05-07 14:54:43 <fun> ok I read it and going to fix it
 970 2014-05-07 14:54:44 <fun> :)
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 976 2014-05-07 15:02:35 <fun> what is txindex=1 for?
 977 2014-05-07 15:03:00 <fun> ok I got it
 978 2014-05-07 15:03:07 <fun> it indexes all transactions locally
 979 2014-05-07 15:04:01 <fun> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/10090/how-to-get-an-addresss-balance-with-the-bitcoin-client
 980 2014-05-07 15:04:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|fun: it keeps an index of all transactions and their locations in the blockchain in memory
 981 2014-05-07 15:04:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So it lets you use getrawtransaction on any transaction
 982 2014-05-07 15:04:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Um. s/in memory/by txid/
 983 2014-05-07 15:05:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I have no idea how that happened
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 986 2014-05-07 15:06:10 <fun>  While it is fairly common that people reuse addresses for deposits or donations, doing so is harmful to yourself and others using Bitcoin in a number of ways which are outside the scope of this question.
 987 2014-05-07 15:06:13 <fun> how come?
 988 2014-05-07 15:06:26 <fun> I just read more comments there lol
 989 2014-05-07 15:06:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|fun: short answer: because transactions can be linked together
 990 2014-05-07 15:06:48 <fun> oki privacy
 991 2014-05-07 15:06:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes, privacy
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 993 2014-05-07 15:07:14 <pigeons> privacy leaks and some implementations have problems making key recovery easier with as few as 2 signatures to compare from the same key
 994 2014-05-07 15:07:23 <fun> maybe add privacy button to QT? and that button then deletes all used addresses
 995 2014-05-07 15:07:29 Ducky has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 996 2014-05-07 15:07:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But not just yours. If you reuse addresses, you don't just reduce your privacy, they reduce the privacy of everyone you transact with
 997 2014-05-07 15:07:36 <fun> so once u use it once its deleted :)
 998 2014-05-07 15:07:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And also, yes, there are other reasons
 999 2014-05-07 15:07:55 <fun> that can be handy addition
1000 2014-05-07 15:08:17 <sipa> fun: you don't want to delete keys; you just want to discourage reusing them
1001 2014-05-07 15:08:20 <mr_burdell> fun: we added something like that in electrum and it's very confusing to users
1002 2014-05-07 15:08:25 <sipa> fun: which is what recent bitcoin-qt does
1003 2014-05-07 15:08:56 <mr_burdell> we get a lot of users asking where their addresses went and if they can still spend to them or not
1004 2014-05-07 15:09:10 <mr_burdell> and they're worried that someone could send them money and they won't get it
1005 2014-05-07 15:09:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Like what pigeons just said -- if you have software broken in a certain way, as Android was at one point IIRC, when you spend two sets of funds sent to an address, you could reveal the privkey
1006 2014-05-07 15:09:26 <fun> lol yes cause they think address is safe where money are :D
1007 2014-05-07 15:09:44 <fun> assosiation with post box I think
1008 2014-05-07 15:09:54 <sipa> yeah, calling it an address was a big mistake
1009 2014-05-07 15:10:04 <sipa> it should have been called invoice id or something
1010 2014-05-07 15:10:16 <fun> or address of the wallet
1011 2014-05-07 15:10:20 <sipa> ...
1012 2014-05-07 15:10:22 <fun> something like that
1013 2014-05-07 15:10:34 <sipa> no, not at all
1014 2014-05-07 15:10:40 <fun> why not?
1015 2014-05-07 15:10:40 <mr_burdell> invoice id makes sense
1016 2014-05-07 15:10:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And also, when you spend funds sent to an address, you reveal the public key
1017 2014-05-07 15:10:56 <sipa> the problem is that calling it an address makes people reason in terms of "balance stored on an address"
1018 2014-05-07 15:11:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Which right now isn't a big deal
1019 2014-05-07 15:11:11 <sipa> while it should be balance of a wallet - let the wallet manage which keys are used to proctect the coin
1020 2014-05-07 15:11:34 <fun> sipa well usually say you order pizza to certain address - its like a co ordinates and pizza is then stored in the house
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1022 2014-05-07 15:11:50 <fun> idea is to let people know its wallet that stores keys to the coins
1023 2014-05-07 15:11:57 <fun> not the address lol
1024 2014-05-07 15:12:04 <sipa> such lol
1025 2014-05-07 15:12:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But in the theoretical future, an attack or QC may weaken ECDSA and that will only affect known public keys
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1029 2014-05-07 15:12:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Er, I may not have explained that optimally)
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1031 2014-05-07 15:13:14 <fun> well its seems simple someone can release qt where address is renamed into something else and check the uptake
1032 2014-05-07 15:13:24 <sipa> won't work now
1033 2014-05-07 15:13:37 <sipa> you won't change how people think
1034 2014-05-07 15:13:51 <fun> people say heck its hack no addresses lol
1035 2014-05-07 15:13:52 <fun> haha
1036 2014-05-07 15:14:04 <jgarzik> mr_burdell, is your first name George, perchance?  :)
1037 2014-05-07 15:14:26 <sipa> fun: everything is a joke to you?
1038 2014-05-07 15:14:28 <mr_burdell> jgarzik: I went to gatech
1039 2014-05-07 15:14:34 <fun> sipa lol its funny
1040 2014-05-07 15:14:39 <sipa> k
1041 2014-05-07 15:14:43 <fun> I work with customers alot
1042 2014-05-07 15:14:53 <jgarzik> mr_burdell, as did many :)
1043 2014-05-07 15:14:55 <sipa> my condolences
1044 2014-05-07 15:15:00 <fun> try working in customer service then you might see :)
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1046 2014-05-07 15:15:15 <fun> but ok I believe in human potential
1047 2014-05-07 15:15:25 <fun> so maybe I try to release some new QT soon
1048 2014-05-07 15:15:39 sipa has left ()
1049 2014-05-07 15:16:37 <fun> mr_burdell: have you seen wallet that allows to trade btc from it?
1050 2014-05-07 15:16:53 <fun> I saw something like that on forums recently
1051 2014-05-07 15:17:14 <mr_burdell> fun: in what sense? most exchanges have a "wallet" that you can exchange from
1052 2014-05-07 15:17:30 <fun> its a QT and you can also directly trade from it
1053 2014-05-07 15:17:48 <fun> without having to go to exchanges webpage
1054 2014-05-07 15:19:56 <fun> "This is a pre-release test build - use at your own risk - do not use for mining or merchant applications" hmm
1055 2014-05-07 15:20:05 <fun> I simply used git clone
1056 2014-05-07 15:20:19 <mr_burdell> fun, you have to "checkout v0.9.1"
1057 2014-05-07 15:20:20 <fun> is it simpy an overcautious message?
1058 2014-05-07 15:20:26 <fun> how?
1059 2014-05-07 15:20:32 <mr_burdell> after clone
1060 2014-05-07 15:20:34 <mr_burdell> cd bitcoin
1061 2014-05-07 15:20:41 <mr_burdell> git checkout v0.9.1
1062 2014-05-07 15:22:25 <fun> cool ty
1063 2014-05-07 15:22:49 <fun> mr_burdell: so yes do you also plan to add trading features in the electrum?
1064 2014-05-07 15:22:59 <mr_burdell> no, I don't plan to
1065 2014-05-07 15:23:08 <fun> oki
1066 2014-05-07 15:23:08 <mr_burdell> someone added a coinbase integration though
1067 2014-05-07 15:23:32 <mr_burdell> but it's only buying
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1071 2014-05-07 15:26:51 <fun> oki time to eat, thanks for the tips :D
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1080 2014-05-07 15:41:18 <dabura667> anyone know a website where I can push non-standard raw transactions?
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1083 2014-05-07 15:46:43 <petertodd> dabura667: http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/pushtxn.php
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1085 2014-05-07 15:47:25 <dabura667> rejected...
1086 2014-05-07 15:47:33 <dabura667> weird...
1087 2014-05-07 15:47:34 <petertodd> 0bin it?
1088 2014-05-07 15:47:42 <dabura667> ok
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1090 2014-05-07 15:49:59 <petertodd> dabura667: and by 0bin, I mean pastebin so I can look at it
1091 2014-05-07 15:50:19 <dabura667> http://pastebin.com/pYeNwpUJ
1092 2014-05-07 15:50:39 <petertodd> no, actually I'm interested in the raw hex
1093 2014-05-07 15:50:45 <dabura667> oh ok
1094 2014-05-07 15:51:06 <dabura667> http://pastebin.com/4nqMd8sC
1095 2014-05-07 15:51:08 <petertodd> (0bin.net >> pastebin IMO for being encrypted)
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1097 2014-05-07 15:55:20 <petertodd> I succesfully pushed through the op_return part: 01000000011058c1c7d8a90b2cfd5671f19a62cde4a715fe3ddb878fbfe761c6e721a16d23010000006b483045022100e58e97e627cf305302cd153923070851be7ae612e28c81535d7298f848f93f2a02203790597caa12508bb878d9de633161a2eb4ffb35886ef04c8b51284ad7ae6536012102e5a25e351e95c52abc4851bd03268f8f2869dd4bb33d5b6dd494af4fd470d151ffffffff010000000000000000276a06ceb34443031d1e23b030fb3be4df32e4516fa572294f7af98ff77df89ddc24becc3c53d8 ...
1098 2014-05-07 15:55:26 <petertodd> ... 9500000000
1099 2014-05-07 15:55:47 <dabura667> ok
1100 2014-05-07 15:55:59 <petertodd> you might have had something else wrong with the tx; what tool were you using to create it?
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1105 2014-05-07 16:09:02 <dabura667> http://brainwallet.org/#tx
1106 2014-05-07 16:09:11 <dabura667> I used this to sign my raw tx
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1108 2014-05-07 16:09:20 <dabura667> and it kinda f'ed it up.
1109 2014-05-07 16:09:28 <petertodd> that doesn't surprise me :)
1110 2014-05-07 16:09:40 <petertodd> bitcoind signrawtransaction and/or python-bitcoinlib is what I use msyelf
1111 2014-05-07 16:10:16 <dabura667> http://pastebin.com/utNiAae7
1112 2014-05-07 16:10:36 <dabura667> would bitcoind signrawtransaction work with this?
1113 2014-05-07 16:10:44 <petertodd> no, it works with raw hex only
1114 2014-05-07 16:10:54 <dabura667> ok
1115 2014-05-07 16:11:05 <dabura667> so I would need to import the privkey, correct?
1116 2014-05-07 16:11:51 <petertodd> frankly, if you haven't already, I *really* suggest downloading python-bitcoinlib and looking at the examples/ directory - I've got some step by step and well documented examples of how to create and sign transactions right in there
1117 2014-05-07 16:12:42 <mapppum> dabura667: you can provide the WIF privkey to signrawtransaction without it being imported
1118 2014-05-07 16:12:52 <petertodd> mapppum: good point!
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1121 2014-05-07 16:16:39 <dabura667> SUCCESS!!! haha!
1122 2014-05-07 16:16:45 <petertodd> nice!
1123 2014-05-07 16:16:53 <dabura667> now let's see if it actually goes to my stealth address...
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1125 2014-05-07 16:18:17 <dabura667> https://blockchain.info/tx/97c10ee69e5f445f99ab6edfd5531e7b21d6013ee1487f2d04559ec480e289f6
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1127 2014-05-07 16:18:48 <petertodd> hmm, no op_return there
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1129 2014-05-07 16:21:01 <dabura667> err wait
1130 2014-05-07 16:21:10 <dabura667> that was the output I used haha
1131 2014-05-07 16:21:18 <dabura667> https://blockchain.info/address/1E8oZd5gmfcX5a522eks1VzXfc4X3E1SEG
1132 2014-05-07 16:21:25 <dabura667> This is the addy I sent from
1133 2014-05-07 16:21:39 <dabura667> let's see if it shows up... blockchain rejected it.
1134 2014-05-07 16:21:48 <dabura667> eligius accepted it!
1135 2014-05-07 16:23:34 <dabura667> 2ae22a393045a34ab634788117422607f092d061d39549c9b3e96259a5be0361
1136 2014-05-07 16:23:38 <dabura667> this is the tx hash
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1153 2014-05-07 16:42:44 <dabura667> went through, but not showing up in DW uh ohhhhh lol
1154 2014-05-07 16:42:56 <dabura667> looks like I failed somewhere
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1202 2014-05-07 17:04:38 <kdomanski> in function "Value listlockunspent(const Array& params, bool fHelp)" a certain 'unsigned int' is being cast to 'int' before being pushed_back to an Object
1203 2014-05-07 17:04:46 <kdomanski> is there a reason for that?
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1209 2014-05-07 17:12:13 <Guest4402> Hello. Would it be disruptive to submit the same exact transaction (using sendrawtransaction) from multiple wallets at about the same time?  Thanks.
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1211 2014-05-07 17:13:18 <gwillen> Guest4402: No, that should be fine.
1212 2014-05-07 17:13:25 <gwillen> Guest4402: at worst it will have no effect.
1213 2014-05-07 17:13:46 <gwillen> Guest4402: at best it will speed up propagation somehwat.
1214 2014-05-07 17:13:55 <Guest4402> I want the various parties in the transaction to know that it got submitted.
1215 2014-05-07 17:14:44 <gwillen> Guest4402: Yeah, that's totally a fine thing to do, then. They should be aware that being submitted doesn't guarantee anything. (And typically if they're connected to the network, they'll know within moments that it was submitted, because they will get it from the network.)
1216 2014-05-07 17:15:01 <Guest4402> right
1217 2014-05-07 17:15:25 <Guest4402> gwillen: thanks
1218 2014-05-07 17:15:52 <gwillen> Guest4402: np
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1236 2014-05-07 17:29:40 <ajweiss> can libbitcoin be run as a full node today?
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1238 2014-05-07 17:31:24 <ajweiss> they have an example wrapper program that looks like it might work, but not much documentation...
1239 2014-05-07 17:33:29 <hearn> i think it’s the backend to dark wallet
1240 2014-05-07 17:33:37 <hearn> so presumably …. not sure how much of the protocol it implements though
1241 2014-05-07 17:33:50 <hearn> i noticed a suspicious lack of filed issues when i last looked at their github. i am curious how many users it has.
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1247 2014-05-07 17:39:30 <hearn> wumpus: why not split the 0.9.2 branch now? it looks bad to have pulls hanging around for months and branch management does not require it
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1250 2014-05-07 17:42:08 <Guest4402> what happens to wallet keypairs after a keypair has been spent? would there be a way to purge the keypair from the wallet? I'm asking because a wallet owner may not want to have evidence of previous spending on his computer...
1251 2014-05-07 17:42:52 <hearn> it’s not supported. if someone did try to send you money again, it would be permanently destroye
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1253 2014-05-07 17:43:04 <Guest4402> understood
1254 2014-05-07 17:43:36 <hearn> you can always encrypt the wallet (with pgp or truecrypt) if you want to hide it, or if even that is too much, export the private key/hd seed and stego it into an image of your kids or whatever
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1256 2014-05-07 17:43:53 <Guest4402> so emptying the wallet and creating a new wallet would be the only way?
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1258 2014-05-07 17:44:08 <hearn> indeed, built-in image stego might be a neat way to hide wallets. though it’d need thought.
1259 2014-05-07 17:44:17 <hearn> well it depends what wallet app you use
1260 2014-05-07 17:44:32 <petertodd> dabura667: ah, you're code is very messed up - it's not even encoding pushdata's correctly. secondly stealth uses one pushdata, not two.
1261 2014-05-07 17:44:50 <Guest4402> thing of ladar and lavabit. the government can compel a person to do anything it wants
1262 2014-05-07 17:44:54 <Guest4402> thinking
1263 2014-05-07 17:45:12 <petertodd> dabura667: the working specification is here BTW: https://wiki.unsystem.net/index.php/DarkWallet/Stealth
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1266 2014-05-07 17:46:42 <hearn> Guest33406: *if* they know you have the wallet then you’re out of luck
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1268 2014-05-07 17:47:09 <hearn> Guest33406: if they don’t know that, or merely suspect it, hiding the wallet could be effective. though tricky - if you have zero wallets on your computer, but a wallet app that supports hiding wallets …… well, 2+2 = ?
1269 2014-05-07 17:47:18 soheil has joined
1270 2014-05-07 17:47:39 <hearn> also there’s a very simple workaround for the adversary. seize the whole computer and stop you getting to another one.
1271 2014-05-07 17:48:16 <Guest4402> yes, and that is sometimes a condition od bail/probation/parole
1272 2014-05-07 17:48:38 <Guest4402> but this is the dev forum...
1273 2014-05-07 17:48:41 <hearn> right. though lavabit isn’t a great example btw. levison picked a fight.
1274 2014-05-07 17:48:52 <hearn> better examples would be the american practice of civil forfeiture
1275 2014-05-07 17:49:08 <Guest4402> you're a Brit?
1276 2014-05-07 17:49:34 <hearn> yes. why?
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1281 2014-05-07 17:51:24 <Guest4402> hearn: lived in London for two years, enjoyed the experience.  I'm always comparing the two justice systems.
1282 2014-05-07 17:52:04 <ajweiss> hearn: are there other implementations that are closer to becoming full nodes?  the bitcoinj stuff is headed that way, yeah?
1283 2014-05-07 17:52:07 <hearn> i don’t think the UK has any equivalent to civil forfeiture. plenty of other bad laws though
1284 2014-05-07 17:52:23 <hearn> ajweiss: no. bitcoinj has a fully validating mode but it doesn’t relay and isn’t usable for mining.
1285 2014-05-07 17:52:31 <hearn> ajweiss: why do you want a different full node?
1286 2014-05-07 17:52:54 <ajweiss> personally, i don't.  i am interested to see how this is going to play out though...
1287 2014-05-07 17:53:56 <ajweiss> the idea of multiple implementations, at least during the teeth cutting phase is pretty terrifying if you ask me... but there are no signs to say that it won't happen...
1288 2014-05-07 17:55:23 <dabura667> petertodd: you're talking about this, correct? http://pastebin.com/0MwL1WmY
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1290 2014-05-07 17:56:47 <petertodd> dabura667: yeah, if you run that through bitcoind decoderawtransaction you'll see the op-return script is outright invalid
1291 2014-05-07 17:57:16 <petertodd> dabura667: what tools are you using?
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1295 2014-05-07 17:57:33 <dabura667> I just wrote the bytes directly.
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1297 2014-05-07 17:58:03 <hearn> ajweiss: well, one reason you’re having trouble finding some is that most people don’t do it :) there is one called btcd though that i see in my getpeers sometimes
1298 2014-05-07 17:58:04 <petertodd> dabura667: ah, yeah, that's rather hard to do :)
1299 2014-05-07 17:58:11 <hearn> ajweiss: and there’s a ruby based one coinbase uses (bad idea)
1300 2014-05-07 17:58:12 <dabura667> I guess
1301 2014-05-07 17:58:42 <ajweiss> oh weird btcd is in go
1302 2014-05-07 17:58:51 <petertodd> dabura667: remember that when you write a script to do this stuff, you only need to get it right once...
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1304 2014-05-07 17:59:30 <dabura667> literally, it's just 6a (OP_RETURN) 06 <4byte nonce> <33byte pubkey> all written like s += '6a' etc
1305 2014-05-07 17:59:47 <hearn> ajweiss: yeah it’s written by a company that love Go for some reason
1306 2014-05-07 17:59:49 * hearn does not love Go
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1308 2014-05-07 18:00:09 <petertodd> dabura667: nope - you need a pushdata opcode in there
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1312 2014-05-07 18:00:55 <dabura667> -> RETURN <version:1=6> <nonce:4> <P:33>
1313 2014-05-07 18:01:21 <petertodd> dabura667: that was written with the implicit understanding that all that data would be packaged up in a pushdata operation
1314 2014-05-07 18:01:23 <dabura667> I guess it was common knowledge? This is my first time messing with script.
1315 2014-05-07 18:01:29 <petertodd> dabura667: yup, common knowledge
1316 2014-05-07 18:01:34 <dabura667> doh
1317 2014-05-07 18:01:41 <coryfields> wumpus: I've got 64bit 10.6min osx bitcoin-qt building on linux. probably another day or so to cleanup. Should be no problem for 0.9.2.
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1319 2014-05-07 18:02:20 <petertodd> dabura667: also, you need to do ecdh and ECC key derivation too to get it all correct
1320 2014-05-07 18:02:40 <dabura667> Electrum adds bits like so http://pastebin.com/PBMBG6e9
1321 2014-05-07 18:02:46 <dabura667> this is my altered code
1322 2014-05-07 18:03:29 <dabura667> I got the ECC stuff down ok, I checked against your test cases and the sx python libraries
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1324 2014-05-07 18:04:00 <petertodd> dabura667: ah cool. by "my" test cases you mean my address format test cases right? I don't have ECC test cases yet
1325 2014-05-07 18:04:30 <dabura667> yeah your address format stuff and the sx python libraries
1326 2014-05-07 18:04:54 <dabura667> so what kind of bytes would I need to add before OP_RETURN?
1327 2014-05-07 18:05:30 <ajweiss> hearn: they rolled their own ruby based fullnode?
1328 2014-05-07 18:05:46 <hearn> i think so. or at least, tried …. it has a history of getting forked off the chain.
1329 2014-05-07 18:05:52 <hearn> i’m not sure how compliant it is
1330 2014-05-07 18:06:00 <petertodd> dabura667: see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script#Constants
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1334 2014-05-07 18:08:12 <dabura667> ok
1335 2014-05-07 18:08:16 <petertodd> dabura667: and you know, if you're interested, I'd certainly appreciate some transaction generation code for my stealth addresses reference implementation: https://github.com/petertodd/stealth-addresses-ref-implementation
1336 2014-05-07 18:08:33 <petertodd> dabura667: might be an easier way for you to learn it rather than working on electrum as step #1
1337 2014-05-07 18:08:41 <dabura667> true
1338 2014-05-07 18:08:58 <dabura667> electrum is kinda messy to step around
1339 2014-05-07 18:09:17 <dabura667> so let me see if my understanding is correct.
1340 2014-05-07 18:10:11 <dabura667> So anything that is not an OPcode must have one of the constants less than or equal to 0x4e (OP_PUSHDATA4)
1341 2014-05-07 18:10:27 <dabura667> so if I want to push more than 75 bytes on the stack
1342 2014-05-07 18:10:46 <dabura667> I need a PUSHDATA1 + the byte over 75
1343 2014-05-07 18:10:50 <petertodd> dabura667: yup
1344 2014-05-07 18:10:58 <dabura667> ok sounds good.
1345 2014-05-07 18:11:01 <dabura667> thanks a lot
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1348 2014-05-07 18:12:23 <petertodd> so in python-bitcoinlib, you can see this with b2x(CScript([b'\x00'*n])) <- basically makes a script with a pushdata of n bytes, and b2x just turns the CScript() object, a bytes subclass, into hex for you
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1351 2014-05-07 18:14:57 <dabura667> ok I'll try wedging in 0x26 (38) between OP_RETURN and the version byte.
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1373 2014-05-07 18:45:49 <dabura667> petertodd: should I be doing the PUSHDATA for each separate thing? ie. pushdata <version1byte> PUSHDATA <nonce4bytes> PUSHDATA <P:33bytes>  ?
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1375 2014-05-07 18:46:48 <sipa> you don't need pushdata for pushes up to 76 bytes
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1386 2014-05-07 18:53:04 <dabura667> yes, sorry that's what I meant
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1391 2014-05-07 18:56:23 <dabura667> I checked some of the stealth txes from testnet I made.
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1411 2014-05-07 19:16:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: opcodes 1-76 are pushdata by definition, are they not?
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1413 2014-05-07 19:17:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's pushdata1 that you don't need for up to 76 bytes
1414 2014-05-07 19:18:34 <sipa> oh, are they called that way? ok
1415 2014-05-07 19:18:50 <sipa> opcode 0 too, btw
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1421 2014-05-07 19:22:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: I think they are… may depend on what you're looking at
1422 2014-05-07 19:23:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, it's weird that (as far as I could tell) there isn't a single opcode to push a zero byte onto the stack
1423 2014-05-07 19:23:50 <sipa> that is correct
1424 2014-05-07 19:23:51 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: why?
1425 2014-05-07 19:24:05 <sipa> but the number 0 is the empty vector
1426 2014-05-07 19:24:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There are single-opcode pushes for 1-16, but to push zero requires 0100
1427 2014-05-07 19:24:25 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: no, OP_FALSE pushes the number zero
1428 2014-05-07 19:24:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh?
1429 2014-05-07 19:24:38 <Luke-Jr> as sipa said
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1431 2014-05-07 19:24:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;bc,wiki script
1432 2014-05-07 19:24:47 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script | Mar 11, 2014 ... Bitcoin uses a scripting system for transactions. Forth-like, Script is simple, stack- based, and processed from left to right. It is purposefully not ...
1433 2014-05-07 19:24:49 <sipa> yes, because the numbers 1-16 are represented by a single byte vector
1434 2014-05-07 19:25:03 <sipa> the number 0 is represened by an empty vector
1435 2014-05-07 19:25:16 <sipa> so that is what op_0 pushes
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1439 2014-05-07 19:26:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, really?
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1441 2014-05-07 19:27:21 <sipa> yes
1442 2014-05-07 19:27:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So what does 0100 get you?
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1444 2014-05-07 19:27:34 <sipa> it pushes the single-byte vector 0x00
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1446 2014-05-07 19:27:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And why is OP_0 not contiguous with OP_1-16?
1447 2014-05-07 19:28:04 <sipa> which is also interpreted as the number 0, but redundant
1448 2014-05-07 19:28:26 <sipa> because op_0 is continupus with the other direct pushes
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1450 2014-05-07 19:28:51 <sipa> it just happens to push somethimg that also is the canonical representation of 0
1451 2014-05-07 19:28:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, I get it
1452 2014-05-07 19:29:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's in the category of "push the next n bytes"
1453 2014-05-07 19:29:16 <sipa> bingo
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1456 2014-05-07 19:30:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If it pushed 00, the equivalent of 0100, it would make sense as, say, 0x50
1457 2014-05-07 19:31:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So to create, say, a 0-of-0 multisig, you would just make it 00 00 00?
1458 2014-05-07 19:31:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(The use case would be to spend a transaction with a scriptPubKey of ae)
1459 2014-05-07 19:32:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or an output, rather
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1481 2014-05-07 19:55:39 <flound1129> is there any negative effect of changing the geblocks limit in main.cpp?
1482 2014-05-07 19:55:43 <flound1129> *getblocks
1483 2014-05-07 19:56:01 <flound1129> the default is 500
1484 2014-05-07 19:56:06 <flound1129> can it be lowered safely?
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1487 2014-05-07 19:58:52 <gmaxwell> y'all realize that Lopp's post on bitcoin-development shows that he's running a socket sucker, right? http://coinchomp.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/totalconnections.png
1488 2014-05-07 19:59:06 <gmaxwell> Thats something that is agressively making outbound connections, you can't get that many inbound.
1489 2014-05-07 20:00:27 roconnor has joined
1490 2014-05-07 20:00:41 <gmaxwell> (and certantly not that quickly)
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1493 2014-05-07 20:05:15 <kdomanski> :( bitcoin wiki spies on people with google analytics
1494 2014-05-07 20:06:26 <gmaxwell> kdomanski: #bitcoin-wiki
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1499 2014-05-07 20:17:14 <petertodd> dabura667: it's a single pushdata for everything - look at how succesful stealth sends work and you'll see what I mean
1500 2014-05-07 20:18:03 <petertodd> gmaxwell: sigh, wish I had the time to implement some proper 'useless peer' disconnection rules
1501 2014-05-07 20:19:10 <hearn> i’ve had a peer connecting to my node and disconnecting every second or so for a while now
1502 2014-05-07 20:19:16 <hearn> some vps in germany. not sure why. it claims to be 0.8.1
1503 2014-05-07 20:19:39 <hearn> it doesn’t seem to be doing anything harmful other than cluttering up the logs though so i assume buggy software
1504 2014-05-07 20:19:42 <gmaxwell> hearn: it's fun to search bitcoin-dev log for those peers IPs, they've often been mentioned before.
1505 2014-05-07 20:20:17 <Luke-Jr> btw, I happened to notice when my DSL was acting up, my bitcoind flooding some poor peer with 50 pings in a few seconds; like 7 per packet
1506 2014-05-07 20:20:28 <Luke-Jr> not the latest code though
1507 2014-05-07 20:20:37 <gmaxwell> eek ?!
1508 2014-05-07 20:20:58 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1509 2014-05-07 20:21:05 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, useless + frequent reconnects + that storage proof that I posted on bitcoin talk to prevent connection soaking, but it's all just not a huge priority.
1510 2014-05-07 20:21:14 <Luke-Jr> yeah, I'm hoping it was just because of the network issues
1511 2014-05-07 20:21:54 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: we should send a ping if there is some long span of no traffic, but it sounds like you're saying that code is busted... I don't recall it being fixed lately, so it's probably still busted.
1512 2014-05-07 20:22:13 <Luke-Jr> well, network issues = TCP congestion = no traffic..
1513 2014-05-07 20:22:17 <gmaxwell> "don't send me anything and I'll ping flood you, that'll show you!"
1514 2014-05-07 20:22:19 BNCatDIGISHELL has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1515 2014-05-07 20:22:31 <Luke-Jr> and quite possible the ping it thought it sent got kernel buffered too..
1516 2014-05-07 20:22:33 Raccoon has quit (Excess Flood)
1517 2014-05-07 20:22:55 Raccoon has joined
1518 2014-05-07 20:23:21 <Luke-Jr> (my observation was in wireshark)
1519 2014-05-07 20:23:30 belcher has joined
1520 2014-05-07 20:23:30 <gmaxwell> right, might have been a backlog. probably good to not have more than one outstanding.
1521 2014-05-07 20:24:01 <jgarzik> my code:    DEBUG: raw_valstr '0.00001', raw_val 0.000010000000000000
1522 2014-05-07 20:24:09 <jgarzik> jansson:             "value": 1.0000000000000001e-5
1523 2014-05-07 20:24:17 * jgarzik fires jansson into orbit
1524 2014-05-07 20:24:23 <Luke-Jr> LOL
1525 2014-05-07 20:24:25 <gmaxwell> ::sigh::
1526 2014-05-07 20:24:34 <jgarzik> jansson: Getting basic math wrong in 2005.
1527 2014-05-07 20:24:51 <gmaxwell> (considering the source: please do not fire jansson into orbit!)
1528 2014-05-07 20:24:57 BNCatDIGISHELL has joined
1529 2014-05-07 20:24:57 <jgarzik> hah
1530 2014-05-07 20:24:58 <petertodd> lol
1531 2014-05-07 20:25:17 <Luke-Jr> ☺
1532 2014-05-07 20:25:29 <petertodd> it's low earth, it'll come back sooner or later... maybe in more than one piece
1533 2014-05-07 20:25:29 <jgarzik> well, I guess I will render JSON the old-fashioned way:  printf()
1534 2014-05-07 20:25:32 cbeams has quit ()
1535 2014-05-07 20:25:50 <jgarzik> fscking json and its strict commas
1536 2014-05-07 20:26:43 cbeams has joined
1537 2014-05-07 20:28:43 daybyter has joined
1538 2014-05-07 20:29:46 <wumpus> we should really merge this patch to be able to use strings for monetary amounts some time
1539 2014-05-07 20:29:50 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: looks like if the socket is backlogged we'll keep spamming pings into the backlog. :)
1540 2014-05-07 20:29:54 <ajweiss> i once had the not so bright idea to store svm parameters in json datafiles using jansson...  it did not go well.
1541 2014-05-07 20:29:57 <jgarzik> wumpus, +1
1542 2014-05-07 20:30:14 <jgarzik> sadly strings + satoshis seems safest
1543 2014-05-07 20:30:15 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: ugly, should just be integers
1544 2014-05-07 20:30:20 <wumpus> using floats is simply fail
1545 2014-05-07 20:30:24 <hearn> jgarzik: JSON is the devil
1546 2014-05-07 20:30:27 fdi11inger has joined
1547 2014-05-07 20:30:27 <hearn> protobufs++
1548 2014-05-07 20:30:33 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, note keyword "should"
1549 2014-05-07 20:30:36 <Luke-Jr> getting rid of JSON ++
1550 2014-05-07 20:30:37 <jgarzik> hearn, indeed
1551 2014-05-07 20:31:00 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: if only json had an 'integer type'
1552 2014-05-07 20:31:12 <wumpus> but no, it's up to the implementation how to interpret numbers
1553 2014-05-07 20:31:21 <jgarzik> hearn, https://github.com/jgarzik/picocoin/blob/master/src/rawtx.c is basically a C, standalone, command line version of bitcoind's raw transaction API.
1554 2014-05-07 20:31:26 <wumpus> so strings is the only safe choice
1555 2014-05-07 20:31:34 <jgarzik> hearn, implementing 'decoderawtransaction' as JSON sadly makes sense
1556 2014-05-07 20:31:36 <ajweiss> protobufs are neat, but can be annoying when you want a super open api
1557 2014-05-07 20:31:41 <hearn> why?
1558 2014-05-07 20:31:52 <hearn> it’s not like anyone telnets to the RPC port anyway. you use bitcoin-cli or a library
1559 2014-05-07 20:31:59 <ajweiss> cos you need a protobuf compiler for every environment you want to talk to
1560 2014-05-07 20:32:11 <wumpus> ajweiss: yes, it's not ideal either for a simple-to-use API
1561 2014-05-07 20:32:16 <hearn> arguably you don’t “need” a compiler, it’s just highly convenient to have one. you can printf() a protobuf too, if you want :)
1562 2014-05-07 20:32:22 <jgarzik> protobufs are great for software<->software.  Not so great when humans need to read it.
1563 2014-05-07 20:32:24 <ajweiss> protobuf is cool when you have control over both endpoints
1564 2014-05-07 20:32:26 <wumpus> ajweiss: no discoverablility
1565 2014-05-07 20:32:33 <jgarzik> i.e. JSON configuration files
1566 2014-05-07 20:32:47 <hearn> protobufs have a text format that can be read/written actually
1567 2014-05-07 20:32:48 <jgarzik> or decoderawtransaction
1568 2014-05-07 20:32:50 <hearn> though it’s kind of weird and ugly
1569 2014-05-07 20:32:59 <warren> wumpus: you going to push new english strings to transifex?
1570 2014-05-07 20:33:03 <wumpus> yaml is nicer for human readbility
1571 2014-05-07 20:33:10 <hearn> it’s used a lot for config files inside of google. don’t recall how good the open source support is for the text format
1572 2014-05-07 20:33:10 <jgarzik> yuck
1573 2014-05-07 20:33:13 <Luke-Jr> protobuf is just annoying because of the compiler thing IMO; and the protobuf source format doesn't allow ad-hoc extensions :x
1574 2014-05-07 20:33:14 <wumpus> at least for config files
1575 2014-05-07 20:33:19 <jgarzik> yaml < json, for human readability
1576 2014-05-07 20:33:28 <wumpus> json is too noisy
1577 2014-05-07 20:33:28 <ajweiss> i'm surprised bip70 is protobuf though... i would have thought internal protocol stuff would be moved to that... and bip70 would be a good application for json
1578 2014-05-07 20:33:41 <hearn> bip70 mostly encodes large random numbers
1579 2014-05-07 20:34:02 <hearn> the first proposals _were_ for json and it’s protobuf now because i argued quite strongly against that. it’s worked out OK. bip70 is easy to implement in any reasonable language
1580 2014-05-07 20:34:15 <jgarzik> ajweiss, json is annoying to hash and pass binary structures.  you have to write marshalling/validation code from scratch.
1581 2014-05-07 20:34:18 <hearn> i mean, if your data is fundamentally binary, representing them using text makes no sense
1582 2014-05-07 20:34:26 <ajweiss> yeah but people are gonna want to generate bip70 payment packets from all sorts of weird stuff
1583 2014-05-07 20:34:34 <jgarzik> hearn, indeed
1584 2014-05-07 20:34:48 <ajweiss> i mean, yeah i guess you have to sign it or whatever
1585 2014-05-07 20:35:03 <gwillen> hearn: ajweiss: For any application where one might use protobufs, I would suggest considering Cap'n Proto instead
1586 2014-05-07 20:35:07 <wumpus> warren: huh?
1587 2014-05-07 20:35:12 <hearn> there’s protobufs for basically everything
1588 2014-05-07 20:35:13 <hearn> https://code.google.com/p/protobuf/wiki/ThirdPartyAddOns
1589 2014-05-07 20:35:14 <gwillen> it's by the same guy, Kenton Varda, after he left Google; it's the spiritual sucessor
1590 2014-05-07 20:35:23 <warren> wumpus: there was at least one string change
1591 2014-05-07 20:35:33 <wumpus> warren: that happens automatically doesn't it?
1592 2014-05-07 20:35:34 <warren> and is it just me or is https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/13d3adb651cc78e24e12dd2a8f55631b25681abf blank?
1593 2014-05-07 20:35:53 <warren> wumpus: I highly doubt it the way our project works
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1595 2014-05-07 20:36:08 <wumpus> warren: transifex simply pulls the bitcoin_en.ts from master
1596 2014-05-07 20:36:16 <hearn> gwillen: it’s not as well supported and the encoding speed improvements are probably not worth the tradeoff for many use cases. but yes it’s a neat thing
1597 2014-05-07 20:36:16 <wumpus> at least, that's how it always worked in the past...
1598 2014-05-07 20:36:18 <warren> wumpus: bitcoin_en.ts wasn't updated
1599 2014-05-07 20:36:24 <wumpus> warren: it was
1600 2014-05-07 20:36:27 <wumpus> today, even
1601 2014-05-07 20:36:48 <Luke-Jr> hearn: you don't consider C a reasonable language?
1602 2014-05-07 20:37:05 <warren> wumpus: please pardon me, I'm apparently crazy.
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1604 2014-05-07 20:37:08 <Luke-Jr> gwillen: Cap'n Proto is evil though :P
1605 2014-05-07 20:37:11 <hearn> Luke-Jr: there are two C libraries for it listed on that page. but no not really :)
1606 2014-05-07 20:37:19 <hearn> not unless you’re writing a bootloader or the TREZOR firmware
1607 2014-05-07 20:37:20 Namworld has joined
1608 2014-05-07 20:37:30 <wumpus> warren: you're too quick to comment without carefully checking sometimes :)
1609 2014-05-07 20:37:37 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: C is a reasonable language for situations where you don't need malloc() <ducks>
1610 2014-05-07 20:38:01 <ajweiss> protobufs for internode communication could bring a big win though
1611 2014-05-07 20:38:11 <hearn> i proposed it to satoshi once, actually
1612 2014-05-07 20:38:23 <hearn> or more accurately i asked why he didn’t use protobufs
1613 2014-05-07 20:38:28 cbeams has joined
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1615 2014-05-07 20:38:31 <warren> yeah, transifex is set to auto-pull from https://raw.github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/master/src/qt/locale/bitcoin_en.ts
1616 2014-05-07 20:38:37 <ajweiss> i think i saw the mailing list bit on it
1617 2014-05-07 20:38:44 <wumpus> hearn: yes, he has a forum post about that
1618 2014-05-07 20:38:46 <ajweiss> he didn't want to read all its source or smth
1619 2014-05-07 20:39:03 <wumpus> hearn: that was about the P2P protocol though, not the RPC one
1620 2014-05-07 20:39:03 <hearn> does he? iirc i asked him over email
1621 2014-05-07 20:39:16 ConvivialMatt has joined
1622 2014-05-07 20:39:41 <hearn> ah yes so he did
1623 2014-05-07 20:39:44 non2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1624 2014-05-07 20:39:50 <hearn> and there was me thinking i’d read all his posts
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1627 2014-05-07 20:41:13 <wumpus> anyhow, the reason that we still don't have a solution for the numbers-as-json-floats issue is because every time someone comes with a solution, everyone wants something else (up to switching the RPC protocol), and of course in the end nothing is done
1628 2014-05-07 20:41:16 <gwillen> Luke-Jr: what is evil about cap'n proto
1629 2014-05-07 20:41:37 <hearn> wumpus: i thought it was inherent to json?
1630 2014-05-07 20:41:39 <Luke-Jr> gwillen: little endian, memcpy assuming x86 data types, etc
1631 2014-05-07 20:41:48 <wumpus> hearn: hence using strings
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1633 2014-05-07 20:42:03 <gmaxwell> Protobufs would have been a massive failure to use as normative datastructures in bitcoin, it would create noncanonical encoding problems which are much worse and harder to resolve (e.g. making it impossible to use a normal protobuf library) than we currently have.
1634 2014-05-07 20:42:09 <ajweiss> but i dunno, i don't really have any standing to argue considering i haven't contributed much of anything yet... i would be wary of going protobuf with the paymentrequest protocol.  i once worked on an early streaming media client that was launched by downloading a binary packet...  everyone hated life until we switched it to a simpler text format...
1635 2014-05-07 20:42:34 <gwillen> gmaxwell: kenton has been convinced-ish of the importance of canonical encodings in cap'n proto
1636 2014-05-07 20:42:57 <hearn> yeah. that was satoshi’s reasoning, sort of. no unnecessary degrees of freedom
1637 2014-05-07 20:42:58 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I don't think he has plans to do this himself, but andrew lutomirski is working on a canonical format and a canonicalizer
1638 2014-05-07 20:43:00 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3759
1639 2014-05-07 20:43:07 chainey has joined
1640 2014-05-07 20:43:25 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: it even supports satoshis-as-integers, though giving so many choices is probably over the top
1641 2014-05-07 20:43:28 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yes, saw and commented a while ago
1642 2014-05-07 20:43:47 <wumpus> oh right
1643 2014-05-07 20:43:48 <gwillen> gmaxwell: the example that convinced him was a merkle tree with proto messages for the nodes, and the need to have the hashes match even if you have to reconstruct the tree yourself.
1644 2014-05-07 20:44:07 <wumpus> so even there no one agreed so we ended up with four alternatives...
1645 2014-05-07 20:44:17 <gmaxwell> integers are nice as a machine interface, just because they encourage good handling practice...
1646 2014-05-07 20:44:30 <paveljanik> BTW - why should bitcoind actively send statistics data somewhere (see the list)? Isn't it better to aggregate stats locally per node and extend the protocol to be able to send the stats when asked by the other daemon/application/crawler and process them elsewhere?
1647 2014-05-07 20:44:37 adam3us has joined
1648 2014-05-07 20:44:49 <wumpus> paveljanik: no, it will not be part of the protocol
1649 2014-05-07 20:45:28 hotsyk has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1650 2014-05-07 20:45:28 <wumpus> paveljanik: no need to burden it with application specific stuff like that
1651 2014-05-07 20:45:30 <gmaxwell> The network is largely uniform and randomly wired, anything global you can't detect from some small number of nodes is probably not worth knowing.
1652 2014-05-07 20:46:07 <coryfields> hmm, are you guys speaking of some sort of unified wire format handling?
1653 2014-05-07 20:46:21 <coryfields> if so, i've been working on exactly that for months now, just haven't cleaned up and pushed it out yet
1654 2014-05-07 20:46:28 <Luke-Jr> coryfields: ?
1655 2014-05-07 20:46:29 cagedwisdom has joined
1656 2014-05-07 20:46:34 <gmaxwell> coryfields: no, it's just griping about json.
1657 2014-05-07 20:46:47 <coryfields> oh, ok
1658 2014-05-07 20:46:49 <gmaxwell> and mike pushing borg technology in response. :P
1659 2014-05-07 20:46:56 <hearn> haha
1660 2014-05-07 20:46:58 GM0127 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1661 2014-05-07 20:47:11 <coryfields> sounds like i should probably push my stuff towards mike, then :)
1662 2014-05-07 20:47:21 <hearn> is that some cunning deployment of insider knowledge or did you just pick the word borg because google is big?
1663 2014-05-07 20:47:28 <gmaxwell> (lest there be some misunderstanding; I like protobuf a lot more than json. :) )
1664 2014-05-07 20:47:59 <coryfields> my project translates an xml spec to cpp headers, then wraps it in a clean interface
1665 2014-05-07 20:48:11 <coryfields> so it's basically protobuf for bitcoin's internal formats
1666 2014-05-07 20:48:19 <Luke-Jr> I prefer protobuf over JSON, except that there's poor C support. OTOH, from reading the protocol, I think writing C code to handle protobuf isn't too bad.
1667 2014-05-07 20:48:23 <jgarzik> xml????????
1668 2014-05-07 20:48:27 <jgarzik> in this decade?
1669 2014-05-07 20:48:38 <coryfields> jgarzik: ugh, i shouldn't have mentioned that part. the format is not at all relevant
1670 2014-05-07 20:48:50 <upb> oh, so you reinvented asn1?
1671 2014-05-07 20:48:52 <coryfields> it's just a spec. it'd take half a day to switch it to $markup-of-choice
1672 2014-05-07 20:48:53 <upb> again?
1673 2014-05-07 20:49:19 <wumpus> coryfields: yeah, never mind the reflex reactions, it's only used for description :)
1674 2014-05-07 20:49:24 <jgarzik> I prefer XDR myself.  I dunno why Google insisted on reinventing the wheel.
1675 2014-05-07 20:49:25 * jgarzik runs
1676 2014-05-07 20:49:44 <jgarzik> NFS did protobufs before protobufs were cool.
1677 2014-05-07 20:50:22 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, libprotobuf-c is quite usable
1678 2014-05-07 20:50:22 <coryfields> wumpus: you see the ping above about osx?
1679 2014-05-07 20:50:45 <coryfields> (way above)
1680 2014-05-07 20:50:50 <wumpus> upb: well the point is that it describes the bitcoin protocol packets in a clear and complete way, as we don't use asn1 that can't be done using asn1.
1681 2014-05-07 20:50:54 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, I would certainly prefer protobuf-based proto to stratum
1682 2014-05-07 20:50:57 <hearn> Luke-Jr: TREZOR protocol is protobuf based and that doesn’t even have an operating system. it’s straight plain C
1683 2014-05-07 20:50:57 <wumpus> coryfields: no, haven't seen that
1684 2014-05-07 20:51:00 <jgarzik> but some people like stratum's readability
1685 2014-05-07 20:51:01 <hearn> no mallocator even
1686 2014-05-07 20:51:39 <coryfields> wumpus: osx x64 for 10.6 builds and runs cleanly. in the cleanup process now, should be at RFC stage tomorrow
1687 2014-05-07 20:51:48 paveljanik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1688 2014-05-07 20:51:48 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I did make some protobuf-like ideas for GBT2 a few months ago
1689 2014-05-07 20:51:49 non2 has joined
1690 2014-05-07 20:51:50 <wumpus> coryfields: I see now, great work!
1691 2014-05-07 20:51:52 <coryfields> would you like me to try to push to have it ready for .9.2 ?
1692 2014-05-07 20:52:27 <wumpus> coryfields: sure
1693 2014-05-07 20:53:11 <wumpus> coryfields: then we can build *all* releases using gitian
1694 2014-05-07 20:53:23 <coryfields> ok. any cutoff date I should be aware of? It'll likely just be updating some gitian descriptors, or moving these into tree
1695 2014-05-07 20:53:26 <coryfields> yea
1696 2014-05-07 20:53:36 <wumpus> it's really a hack to build for macosx currently
1697 2014-05-07 20:54:13 <coryfields> i think i've found a solution for the deterministic signing issue as well, i'm looking into that after i get this cleaned up
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1702 2014-05-07 20:56:18 <wumpus> coryfields: may 13 has been communicated as feature freeze for 0.9.2 and for building the first rc
1703 2014-05-07 20:56:51 <coryfields> ok, that should be no problem
1704 2014-05-07 20:57:14 <wumpus> coryfields: well the signing can be done manually, we do the same for the windows installer
1705 2014-05-07 20:57:52 <warren> is there a way to verify that the gitian output was what was signed?
1706 2014-05-07 20:58:16 <coryfields> wumpus: i was afraid that signing would break the determinism irreparably
1707 2014-05-07 20:58:18 <wumpus> warren: yes, you can strip off the signature
1708 2014-05-07 20:58:25 <coryfields> er, s/wumpus/warren/
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1729 2014-05-07 21:10:51 <gmaxwell> hearn: his code breaks the bloom filter implementation by allowing it to become size zero, exposing bluematt's bug.
1730 2014-05-07 21:11:04 <hearn> ah
1731 2014-05-07 21:11:10 non2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1732 2014-05-07 21:11:13 <hearn> you just noticed that now?
1733 2014-05-07 21:11:17 gst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1734 2014-05-07 21:11:30 <gmaxwell> I hadn't reviewed the code previously.
1735 2014-05-07 21:11:34 gst has joined
1736 2014-05-07 21:11:35 <sipa> which code?
1737 2014-05-07 21:11:45 <hearn> right, i haven’t reviewed it either
1738 2014-05-07 21:11:49 <hearn> sipa: double spend relaying
1739 2014-05-07 21:11:54 <sipa> ah
1740 2014-05-07 21:11:54 <gmaxwell> sipa: dgenr8's double spend stuff.
1741 2014-05-07 21:11:55 <sipa> meh
1742 2014-05-07 21:11:58 <hearn> i switched my node to that branch and am peering with it
1743 2014-05-07 21:12:09 <gmaxwell> Every discussion I've had with him has suggested to me that this patch is unlikely to make it into production.
1744 2014-05-07 21:12:52 <hearn> why?
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1747 2014-05-07 21:13:17 <hearn> his code is buggy?
1748 2014-05-07 21:13:44 <hearn> well, i mean, obviously there’s at least one bug
1749 2014-05-07 21:13:54 <gmaxwell> you can go look at the discussion in here mostly between him and sipa.
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1753 2014-05-07 21:15:56 <sipa> i just don't think this responsability can be pushed onto the p2p network without large costs (to do it faithfully, you also need to relay non-standard or too-large double spending transactions)
1754 2014-05-07 21:16:38 ConvivialMatt has joined
1755 2014-05-07 21:17:15 <hearn> yes, and? i think we all agree we’d like IsStandard to die, right
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1757 2014-05-07 21:17:32 <sipa> there will always be some limitations to what a node relays
1758 2014-05-07 21:17:42 <sipa> and those limitations will differ between nodes
1759 2014-05-07 21:18:01 <sipa> double-spend relaying can easily be avoided by making something on the edge of relayability
1760 2014-05-07 21:18:27 <gmaxwell> No. Widened enormously ... sure, but to preserve forward compatiblity some thing (like wacked out versions or NO_OP op codes need to get rejected), or to avoid memory exhaustion attacks super large transactions need to get dropped.
1761 2014-05-07 21:19:03 EmLeX has joined
1762 2014-05-07 21:19:16 <uiop> you mean super large transactions need to not be read into memory in the first place?
1763 2014-05-07 21:19:23 <gmaxwell> hearn: the relay first behavior also has a problem where you make the first conflict an innocent one, e.g. a boring mutant... and then make later ones nasty. And if it isn't limited the bandwith usage is unbounded. :(
1764 2014-05-07 21:19:36 <hearn> there is no good reason for skew in those aspects though. the only reasons things differ today is “cheap” fee change rollouts and because luke doesn’t like script limits :)
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1766 2014-05-07 21:20:05 <sipa> you can't assume the network will have consistent and non-changing rules about which transactions are valid to relay and mine
1767 2014-05-07 21:20:29 <hearn> gmaxwell: yes but we already want to restrict mutability. so that would get fixed at some point anyway
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1771 2014-05-07 21:20:34 <gmaxwell> uiop: e.g. when verifying a transaction you go read their inputs to extract data. If a transaction has 100, 200kb inputs you are very unhappy very fast.
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1773 2014-05-07 21:20:56 <hearn> sipa: what nodes choose to mine doesn’t have to be the same as what they relay
1774 2014-05-07 21:21:10 <sipa> hearn: sure it does; otherwise i just send my double-spend directly to a miner
1775 2014-05-07 21:21:13 <uiop> gmaxwell: ah, gotcha
1776 2014-05-07 21:21:19 <gmaxwell> hearn: I couldn't parse what you said above with "the only reasons things differ today" differe from what to what?
1777 2014-05-07 21:21:23 <hearn> and the miner accepts it into their mempool,and does not include it into their blocks
1778 2014-05-07 21:21:33 <hearn> gmaxwell: what nodes relay.
1779 2014-05-07 21:21:43 <sipa> hearn: assuming the miner heard that one first, of course
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1782 2014-05-07 21:22:34 <hearn> sipa: no, why does ordering matter? it sees two txns, it broadcasts a double spend alert. whether it chooses to mine either of them is irrelevant. it has to keep them around in order to create such an alert, but ok, no big deal. it’ll have to process the tx eventually anyway when another miner includes it.
1783 2014-05-07 21:22:34 <gmaxwell> hearn: uh, no, nodes differe in what they relay because there is no centeral authoriry forcing everyone to run the same code... and because people have different resource preferences (e.g. bitcoinj nodes don't relay at all— as a kind of silly example)
1784 2014-05-07 21:23:07 <hearn> there’s no central authority forcing people to run the same code indeed. however in practice other than upgrade skew, most people do, because there’s no reason not to and benefits from doing so.
1785 2014-05-07 21:23:09 <sipa> hearn: and the network will not relay the double spend
1786 2014-05-07 21:23:20 <sipa> hearn: as it's something the miner accepts, but most relay nodes don't
1787 2014-05-07 21:23:36 <sipa> hearn: thus you've succesfully created a double-spend potential without alerting the network
1788 2014-05-07 21:24:09 <sipa> _if_ we would have constant-size double-spend proofs, things could be different
1789 2014-05-07 21:24:22 <sipa> but the current transaction signing structure doesn't allow that
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1793 2014-05-07 21:25:05 <gmaxwell> hearn: You shouldn't assume the world tomorrow will look like the one today; there are other full node implementations that people are already running. At least one large and very well known service uses something other than the reference implementation pointed at the network.   Even today its not completely consistent, and I can't see it becoming more consistent in the future.
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1795 2014-05-07 21:25:26 <hearn> i can see it becoming more consistent. anyway, double spend alerts are hugely valuable. perfect is the enemy of the good, etc.
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1797 2014-05-07 21:25:45 <gmaxwell> hearn: uh adding vulnerabilities into the software is also the enemy of good.
1798 2014-05-07 21:25:47 <sipa> i think they're almost-useless if they can be circumvened trivially
1799 2014-05-07 21:25:55 <hearn> lack of alerts IS a vulnerability in the software
1800 2014-05-07 21:26:02 <sipa> if they can't be circumvened, they have huge dos potential
1801 2014-05-07 21:26:06 <hearn> sipa: so the goal is to stop them being trivially circumvented.
1802 2014-05-07 21:26:12 <gmaxwell> As it stands the code can be trivially circumevnted and the author appears to be unable to understand how.
1803 2014-05-07 21:26:26 <sipa> hearn: ok, so relay each and every double-spend, ignoring all dos limits
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1807 2014-05-07 21:27:12 <hearn> as discussed before, you only need the first one if a tx is not mutable. and yes nodes should relay as many as they can within their bandwidth limits. our current DoS code is crap, you know that ;)
1808 2014-05-07 21:27:36 <jgarzik> Major fork or bug events tend to weed out a lot of software in one big swath.  Many parties move from a wide set of softwares and versions to a more narrow set.
1809 2014-05-07 21:27:41 <sipa> hearn: no, they need to relay each double spend that _any_ other node might relay or mine
1810 2014-05-07 21:28:01 <sipa> hearn: and yes, i agree fully with that approach to dos protection
1811 2014-05-07 21:28:13 <jgarzik> i.e. pools tend to prefer an upstream bitcoind or close to it.  They cannot afford a devel team to maintain too-divergent a codebase.
1812 2014-05-07 21:28:15 <hearn> yes. which is why consistency is so useful and important.
1813 2014-05-07 21:28:15 <sipa> but it's not compatible with reliable double-spend relaying
1814 2014-05-07 21:28:23 <sipa> consistency is a dream
1815 2014-05-07 21:28:34 <sipa> and the world evolves
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1818 2014-05-07 21:29:09 <hearn> bitcoin is a dream!
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1823 2014-05-07 21:29:45 <hearn> IsStandard can be deleted at some point and the remaining small rules be made hard rules
1824 2014-05-07 21:29:59 <sipa> hearn: assuming we have some magic setting to bitcoind that sets how much ram/cpu/disk/network it can use, and it works perfectly... shedding/disconnecting when it would exceed those rules
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1826 2014-05-07 21:30:24 <sipa> hearn: and IsStandard is gone, apart from some very basic things (no unknown versions, no unknown opcodes reserved for future expansion)
1827 2014-05-07 21:30:34 <sipa> hearn: and every single node on the network runs that software
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1830 2014-05-07 21:30:40 <hearn> yep
1831 2014-05-07 21:30:44 <jgarzik> indeed.. ultimately it is a kernel-inside-a-kernel problem, scheduling resources among various peers and background processing
1832 2014-05-07 21:30:48 <hearn> (or software that implements the same rules and features)
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1834 2014-05-07 21:31:01 <hearn> floating fees poses some special problems :)
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1836 2014-05-07 21:31:26 <sipa> hearn: as a merchant in such a world, wanting to detect double spends, you must run a node that is 1) fatter than any miner would run  2) hope you're connected to all such miners using nodes that are each at least as beefy
1837 2014-05-07 21:31:44 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: (nitpick) s/can't affort/won't pay/ in many cases E.g. one top fee charging pool had revenue of ~$280k in the last 30 days.
1838 2014-05-07 21:31:46 <sipa> hearn: otherwise you just wouldn't see the double-spends if they exceed any of the resource limits
1839 2014-05-07 21:31:54 <hearn> but i think the notion of a dust limit can go away at some point too. once nodes schedule resources it’s irrelevant. they drop transactions they can’t fit anymore. but assuming nodes have to at least keep up with the chain, that should keep them somewhat in sync hardware capabilities wise
1840 2014-05-07 21:32:37 <sipa> hearn: that leads me to believe that if double-spend relaying is useful (which it may be), you really need a private network with trusted peers that just tell you which inputs they see being spent
1841 2014-05-07 21:32:46 <hearn> sipa: ultimately miners and merchants have to process the same set of txns in the chain anyway, so they can’t differ in hardware too much.
1842 2014-05-07 21:32:58 <gmaxwell> hearn: even ignoring the dust limit stuff (elimiating which requires maintaining a standing backlog...), if my mempool is 10g and yours is 50g, then we will have a different idea of which transactions are elegible for relay.
1843 2014-05-07 21:33:01 <sipa> hearn: miners need to do so much faster
1844 2014-05-07 21:33:05 <jgarzik> sipa, Yes.  I've predicted that would evolve, in a more mature market.
1845 2014-05-07 21:33:09 <jgarzik> Incentives are there.
1846 2014-05-07 21:33:35 <sipa> and what gmaxwell says
1847 2014-05-07 21:33:37 <hearn> sipa: why? if miners are handling a solid 10tps then as a merchant you *must* be able to keep up, otherwise you won’t be able to process blocks fast enough and will fall behind
1848 2014-05-07 21:33:55 <gmaxwell> hearn: you can take ten minutes approx to process them.
1849 2014-05-07 21:33:58 <sipa> hearn: as a miner you want to be able to process a new block in seconds or so
1850 2014-05-07 21:34:02 <sipa> hearn: relay nodes have 10 minutes
1851 2014-05-07 21:34:02 <gmaxwell> but if you're a miner doing that you'll be constantly orphaned.
1852 2014-05-07 21:34:13 <hearn> gmaxwell: yes but txns that fall into the long tail where the network is fragmented and partly ignoring them can also just be ignored by merchants that want to accept unconfirmed txns.
1853 2014-05-07 21:34:20 <gmaxwell> (or having to produce empty blocks and praying they're on the right chain)
1854 2014-05-07 21:34:37 <gmaxwell> hearn: but you can exploit that by making your double spend look like one of those.
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1856 2014-05-07 21:35:41 <sipa> let's go work on an altcoin with constant size double-spend proofs *ducks*
1857 2014-05-07 21:36:25 <sipa> putting txins and txouts in merkle trees should already get you log(n)
1858 2014-05-07 21:36:32 <hearn> gmaxwell: miners sort by fee too when formatting blocks. so even if your tx got into a miners mempool and not a merchants mempool because the miner was beefier, it’d only matter if those transactions were showing up in blocks. and for merchants that care, they can say “huh lots of blocks show up with transactions i couldn’t fit into my mempool - time to upgrade"
1859 2014-05-07 21:37:00 <sipa> so you make it even a worse race for the best hardware
1860 2014-05-07 21:37:11 <hearn> (or the mempool can spill onto disk)
1861 2014-05-07 21:37:21 <gmaxwell> hearn: the incentives are pretty different... having a huge mempool is important if you're trying to collect the most fees. If you're just verifying transactions you don't need a mempool at all.
1862 2014-05-07 21:37:29 <sipa> also: what if you make a highfee transaction that depends on a lowfee one which would fall outside of most people's mempools?
1863 2014-05-07 21:37:35 * jgarzik ponders a txget(1) util, which would Figure Out where to find a transaction (bitcoind rpc, p2p mempool, insight api, blockchain.info api, ?)
1864 2014-05-07 21:37:36 <sipa> the miner might still mine both
1865 2014-05-07 21:37:48 <gmaxwell> hearn: I was already assuming it was on disk— 10g and 50g are not common memory sizes for applications in the real world. :)
1866 2014-05-07 21:37:57 <hearn> oh right. i don’t work at google anymore :)
1867 2014-05-07 21:38:23 <sipa> didn't you know? google switched to a beowolf cluster of raspberry pi's
1868 2014-05-07 21:38:42 <hearn> sipa: merchants can certainly prioritise transaction chains that involve their own keys for their own mempools
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1870 2014-05-07 21:38:59 <sipa> hearn: they don't know that in advance when the start of the chain appears
1871 2014-05-07 21:39:14 <hearn> sipa: it doesn’t matter. they can download the chain once they find the tip. bitcoinj already does/did do that
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1874 2014-05-07 21:39:30 <sipa> that assumes peers have larger mempools than you
1875 2014-05-07 21:39:41 <hearn> that’s the assumption that led us down that path, yes
1876 2014-05-07 21:39:56 <hearn> if you have a larger mempool than your peer then there’s no need for fancy prioritisation and chain downloading. you can just keep everything your peers send
1877 2014-05-07 21:40:07 <gmaxwell> the assumption was that there are miners with larger mempools than you.
1878 2014-05-07 21:40:12 <gmaxwell> Not that your own local peers do.
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1881 2014-05-07 21:41:43 <hearn> what was the problem we’re trying to solve again? double spend alerts don’t enter the mempool, do they. they just need to get checked and relayed.
1882 2014-05-07 21:41:48 <gmaxwell> I think we're getting to abstracted here, really the point is that reliable doublespending notices can't work if an attacker can choose to make their doublespends one that won't propagate well... And you get into fun things like the attacker makes a low propagation double spend then spends it with a high fee paying child and then miners with fancier non-greedy prioritization will happily take it but it doesn't propagate.
1883 2014-05-07 21:42:34 <gmaxwell> hearn: you need to do something more than "jurst relay", otherwise you can just trivially saturate the whole network by just constantly issuing more doublespends. (bittorrent over bitcoin hurrah)
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1886 2014-05-07 21:43:14 <hearn> you can just set a mark bit on the output
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1888 2014-05-07 21:43:23 <hearn> i feel like we’re going round in circles
1889 2014-05-07 21:43:24 <jgarzik> evil bit
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1891 2014-05-07 21:43:50 <sipa> and everything with such a bit gets relayed?
1892 2014-05-07 21:44:06 indy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1893 2014-05-07 21:44:07 <sipa> sounds like an evil bit indeed
1894 2014-05-07 21:44:29 <hearn> no. in the mempool each coin has a mark bit and the first double spend relay trips it so the others don’t. i thought that was discussed before?
1895 2014-05-07 21:44:36 <hearn> only relaying the first?
1896 2014-05-07 21:44:42 <sipa> ok, only the first
1897 2014-05-07 21:44:57 <sipa> but regardless of size
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1899 2014-05-07 21:45:22 <hearn> with tx version=3 the only reason you’d see a double spend alert is maliciousness on the part of the sender. so once received it can be thrown away. as long as it propagated
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1904 2014-05-07 21:45:44 <sipa> (also, i'm unconvined whether just the first is enough)
1905 2014-05-07 21:45:58 <gmaxwell> hearn: hm? doublespends don't always mean malicious. Consider what happens when you revise fees.
1906 2014-05-07 21:46:19 <warren> or spending an unconfirmed input
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1909 2014-05-07 21:46:44 <hearn> warren: huh? you spend outputs, not inputs.
1910 2014-05-07 21:46:53 <warren> yeah
1911 2014-05-07 21:46:55 <jgarzik> alas, I wish there was some way to query unspent outputs via P2P protocol.
1912 2014-05-07 21:47:01 <hearn> jgarzik: i have a patch that does that, actually
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1914 2014-05-07 21:47:08 <jgarzik> eliminate bitcoind for some of my apps.
1915 2014-05-07 21:47:09 <hearn> jgarzik: i’d like to submit it soon. it’s for an app i’m writing.
1916 2014-05-07 21:47:13 <jgarzik> +1
1917 2014-05-07 21:47:16 <sipa> NACK
1918 2014-05-07 21:47:23 <sipa> unless with committed UTXOs
1919 2014-05-07 21:47:27 <gmaxwell> hearn: so the existing patch gives no alert on a varrious mixture of boring doublespends, meaning— I believe— someone can just make their first doublespend a boring one.. then the network won't relay any others.
1920 2014-05-07 21:47:38 <hearn> sipa: no no no. you’re making perfect enemy of the good again. there are apps that don’t need it.
1921 2014-05-07 21:47:46 <hearn> apparently both jgarzik and i have at least one each
1922 2014-05-07 21:47:48 <gmaxwell> Do not add shit to the protocol where people have no recourse but to trust their peers are honest, it just asked for irritating attacks.
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1925 2014-05-07 21:48:02 <gmaxwell> hearn: then run a seperate protocol for that, like electrum does.
1926 2014-05-07 21:48:02 <sipa> hearn: i don't care; i don't want to force responsabilities on full nodes that cannot be used in a trustless way
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1928 2014-05-07 21:48:22 <hearn> gmaxwell: because centralisation is so great? no, why. it’s a super cheap patch.
1929 2014-05-07 21:48:35 <sipa> and it will encourage infrastructure to rely on unverifiable data
1930 2014-05-07 21:48:58 <hearn> like addr packets, like tx packets, like merkleblocks ....
1931 2014-05-07 21:49:14 <sipa> addr packets are ugly; the rest is verifiable
1932 2014-05-07 21:49:20 <sipa> (except for omitting things)
1933 2014-05-07 21:49:24 <gmaxwell> hearn: It isn't a super cheap patch at all. Its one that has a long term cost of dealing with "oh no, how do we stop the untrustworthy nodes" (/me waits for the "Oh I know lets just have an informal vote and seize their bitcoins!")
1934 2014-05-07 21:49:29 <hearn> but heck, how about, we add a utxo query message, and then you can upgrade it later with a fancy confirmation scheme if/when it becomes available
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1936 2014-05-07 21:49:48 <hearn> sipa: so it’s verifiable except for the parts that aren’t
1937 2014-05-07 21:49:51 <hearn> oops.
1938 2014-05-07 21:50:33 <hearn> gmaxwell: the “oh no how do we stop untrustworthy nodes” debate already happens even in the absence of such nodes, people who wish to make UTXO commitments work will continue to do so. however there are real apps _today_ that can benefit from this.
1939 2014-05-07 21:50:45 <gmaxwell> hearn: saying that you're unwilling to do the work to make something that isn't vulnerable to the point of being an attractive nussance doesn't make a strong argument that the functionality is all that important.
1940 2014-05-07 21:51:32 WishBoy has joined
1941 2014-05-07 21:51:55 <hearn> ah yes. if you don’t convince every node to create UTXO commitments, check them, do a hard fork to verify them *first* then you’re just lazy and your app is useless? sorry, strongly disagree. there’s nothing wrong with incremental improvement, and this is a good candidate for it
1942 2014-05-07 21:52:28 <hearn> especially because there are non-useless apps that need it. and yes the alternative is people run forked bitcoind nodes that implement the protocol extension and rely on them via some central pool. not a win.
1943 2014-05-07 21:52:39 <gmaxwell> There is no hardfork involved in any of that, as an aside.  And yes, if your answer to hard problems in bitcoin is to go add trusting random peers on the internet, then perhaps you _are_ lazy.
1944 2014-05-07 21:52:44 <gmaxwell> Sorry.
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1946 2014-05-07 21:53:19 <gmaxwell> At least in the case of electrum the severs are enumerated and authenticated. So someone spinning up a bunch of sybils to jam it doesn't easily work.
1947 2014-05-07 21:53:38 <gmaxwell> (it's a different security model, but at least it is a security model... not just a hope no one attacks)
1948 2014-05-07 21:55:02 <gmaxwell> hearn: and interesting you mention addr messages, you don't support them in bitcoinj in part because of the complexity required to make them robust and their relatively lower performance absent making them robust (most addr messages circulated have never run a reachable node, people spam random garbage into addr messages).
1949 2014-05-07 21:55:46 <hearn> what’s your point? there’s no way to make addr messages verifiable in that way.
1950 2014-05-07 21:56:43 <gmaxwell> Yep. And the result is lame. Oh well, we don't know how to do better.  We do know how to do better with the utxo data.
1951 2014-05-07 21:56:46 <hearn> anyway this is stupid. how many lines of code have i written? how many bitcoin users have relied on that code? it’s up to about 1.5 million now, i think. so don’t state i’m lazy because i try to find a good tradeoff between time available and decentralisation obtained, instead of theorizing about wizardly solutions that are years away from implementation at best
1952 2014-05-07 21:57:17 <gmaxwell> This stuff is already implemented in some alternative implementations (e.g. the libbitcoin stuff)
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1954 2014-05-07 21:58:52 <hearn> and nobody runs it, so that doesn’t help. my goal here is to *not* have special servers that someone has to run, unless it can’t be avoided.
1955 2014-05-07 22:00:43 <gmaxwell> Then you need to propose something that can propertly become part of the protocol and doesn't introduce new dependencies on trusting nodes to behave more honestly than we can realistically avoid. This isn't like someone asking for some snazzy zkp that no one knows how to implement pratically- its the same solution used for transaction membership in blocks.
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1957 2014-05-07 22:02:05 <gmaxwell> Otherwise it will work much better if it is using a special server— it could even use the large network of existing ones (the electrum ones, which themselves want to move in a way of being less trusty for that stuff— but they exist today and work, and don't have the issue of creating incentives for people to spin up sybil nodes just to screw things up, since that attack won't work there).
1958 2014-05-07 22:02:18 <wumpus> to get any accuracy for results of queries that you can't verify you're probably stuck with a 'special servers' model like stratum
1959 2014-05-07 22:02:36 <hearn> let’s imagine SCIP is released next week. do all new features in the p2p protocol suddenly get shouted down because “we know how to do SCIP now so if you don’t do it you’re lazy”? it’s silly. the right answer is, we start with a simple implementation. it gets upgraded when the man hours (read: funds) are available.
1960 2014-05-07 22:03:16 tombtc has quit (Quit: Wychodzi)
1961 2014-05-07 22:03:21 <hearn> wumpus: the existence and practicality of SPV clients suggests that point of view is wrong. people made the same arguments last year. bloom filtering can’t work. spv can’t work. what if the remote nodes all start fucking with you just because? but …. for now, they do work. and bitcoin is better off for it.
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1963 2014-05-07 22:03:36 <hearn> would we like something better? sure. but not at the cost of everyone using blockchain.info
1964 2014-05-07 22:03:39 <gmaxwell> hearn: Maybe!  we're not talking about scip here, we already implement the mechenisms being discussed, but for a different datastructure (the blocks instead of the utxo)
1965 2014-05-07 22:03:58 <gmaxwell> hearn: no, so instead you just ask every node to be blockchain.info— this is actually not a big improvement.
1966 2014-05-07 22:04:08 <wumpus> hearn: with bloom filters, nodes can only mess with you in one very limited way, leaving out transactions
1967 2014-05-07 22:04:12 <gmaxwell> At least with bc.i you can reason about the threat model pretty easily.
1968 2014-05-07 22:04:54 <hearn> gmaxwell: well, then go tell everyone to stop using p2p walletsbecause it’s easier to reason about the threat model of services run by trusted companies than a p2p network ….
1969 2014-05-07 22:04:57 <gmaxwell> hearn: I certantly didn't argue that bloom filtering can't work— though it's hard pushed hasty deployment did result in a remotely exploitable crash vulnerability in the whole network.
1970 2014-05-07 22:05:35 <wumpus> hearn: it's exactly the merkle tree that avoids this, for the utxo data you'd need something similar
1971 2014-05-07 22:05:40 <hearn> i didn’t say you made that argument: others certainly did, and it’s a very similar kind of argument
1972 2014-05-07 22:05:42 <gmaxwell> hearn: the distinction there is that the p2p wallets have actually better security, vs "just trust data from your peer" is precisely the bc.i architecture, but without the other factors that increase the security in practice.
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1975 2014-05-07 22:06:45 <gmaxwell> hearn: I suspect it only seems similar to you because we don't actually understand each other's position.
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1980 2014-05-07 22:08:10 <hearn> in fairness, i haven’t publicly discussed the app i’m working on. i don’t know about jgarzik’s use case, but mine is using UTXO queries as a UI hint. it can quite easily tolerate some untrusted nodes. worst case: the UI is misleading until you press the “go” button. unless jgarzik wants it earlier i’ll probably make a pull req for it after i announce the app
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1982 2014-05-07 22:08:49 <hearn> so if someone goes ahead and does all the work to do UTXO commitments, then i will happily use it. but for my use case the “pick some random servers and poll them” is sufficient.
1983 2014-05-07 22:09:05 <hearn> for some other project that needs stronger proofs, sure, then they’d have to do that.
1984 2014-05-07 22:10:00 <gmaxwell> I can certantly believe that in some applications the data doesn't even matter, and thats less of a concern— though we've had problems with things like that in bitcoin. e.g. with starting height, there is some jackassnodes in some russian datacenter that claim crazy starting heights and were causing users to freak out until we changed how progress was reported.   But even ignoring that you have to consider the other ways the facility ...
1985 2014-05-07 22:10:07 <gmaxwell> ... will be used.
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1990 2014-05-07 22:11:01 <gmaxwell> And people writing bitcoin applications are frequently not able to think through all the demands and security implications (I don't believe anyone is, this isn't an insult), especially second order ones like creating incentives to run sybil nodes just to screw with some gratitiously vulnerable service.
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1992 2014-05-07 22:11:46 <gmaxwell> hearn: at least this time petertodd will probably support your proposal, since random utxo access would probably be a huge boon to mastercoin. :)
1993 2014-05-07 22:12:06 <hearn> haha. now wouldn’t that be something.
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1996 2014-05-07 22:14:21 <gmaxwell> considering that people have engaged in starting height griefing already, even when it had basically no effect... I'm pretty skeptical even of simple UI hints. But I suppose thats your own grave to dig there. Ending up having to support for a long time something that encourages misuse in the protocol ... not super exciting.
1997 2014-05-07 22:14:38 <wumpus> there is certainly a place for a standardized protocol for doing 'trusted queries' for blockchain/utxo/mempool data from a node, but the P2P network is not the place for it
1998 2014-05-07 22:15:56 <hearn> wumpus: why would running it on a different port help?
1999 2014-05-07 22:16:24 <wumpus> hearn: not everyone wouldh ave to support it, it could be authenticated, optional, etc
2000 2014-05-07 22:17:37 <hearn> if for some reason optionality made sense that’s what service bits are for. authenticating it (with the imperfect merkleblock type approach) is a larger project - once done, we could bump the protocol version and start including the proofs with the reply. or introduce a new command, etc. lots of ways to do it.
2001 2014-05-07 22:17:40 <wumpus> bloom was an edge case, and I'm happy that it made it in, but that shouldn't be an excuse to lump everything in
2002 2014-05-07 22:17:44 <hearn> but i think this is a relatively minor detail
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2004 2014-05-07 22:18:43 <gmaxwell> At least bloom is not a free for all, the server->client attack is a DOS through omission. (really the client->server resource usage attacks have been a lot more annoying)
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2008 2014-05-07 22:19:05 <hearn> which is the same thing as for the utxo query, right?
2009 2014-05-07 22:19:25 <hearn> at least for my use case the remote node has no way to synthesize a correct answer
2010 2014-05-07 22:19:35 <gmaxwell> hearn: No. It's not, I can freely feed you utxo that don't exist. Perhaps in your UI application it's just a dos attack, its very much not that for other things.
2011 2014-05-07 22:19:42 <hearn> as the queryer has a transaction that hasn’t been relayed
2012 2014-05-07 22:19:49 <hearn> (and the scripts are checked)
2013 2014-05-07 22:20:10 <gmaxwell> E.g. I give you a transaction which spends non-existing parents, I give you non-existing utxo so you believe the transaction is valid.
2014 2014-05-07 22:20:33 <gmaxwell> (non-existing / already spent, etc)
2015 2014-05-07 22:21:11 <gmaxwell> and then you're accepting fradulent payments, or you're relaying invalid things and getting banned, or whatever else you were trusting the integrity of that data for.
2016 2014-05-07 22:21:19 <hearn> “I” in the above sentence is two different entities as the tx being checked is communicated out of band and the sender cannot influence your choice of randomly selected peers (unless they are a MITM on your network)
2017 2014-05-07 22:21:35 <hearn> anyway, i’ll wait until my app is further along and then the precise use cases and attacks will become clearer.
2018 2014-05-07 22:21:42 <gmaxwell> You're displaying "from addresses" (yech) on transactions which match an attacker, and you're refunding payments back to the wrong party.
2019 2014-05-07 22:22:06 <gmaxwell> (not you personally, but hypothetical users of this api)
2020 2014-05-07 22:23:07 <gmaxwell> hearn: just spin up lots of 'peers', 20,000 gives you excellent odds at getting four connections to your nodes. We've had people attack #bitcoin IRC with more IPs than that.
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2022 2014-05-07 22:23:28 <gmaxwell> with no more motivation than the lulz of being a pain in the butt. :)
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2024 2014-05-07 22:25:22 <hearn> scip+e-passports to the rescue. doesn’t get lulzier than that
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2027 2014-05-07 22:27:45 <gmaxwell> I'd rather avoid creating assumptions where we have to use far out solutions (things like zkp or voting to seize people's funds) to rescuse us because our assumptions ('peers will be honest') were hard to guarantee in the first place.  :)
2028 2014-05-07 22:28:00 <gmaxwell> At least to the extent we reasonably can without handicapping too much.
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2078 2014-05-07 23:26:52 <petertodd> gmaxwell: mastercoin works fine with bloom filters; utxo queries are certainly not needed for it
2079 2014-05-07 23:27:50 <petertodd> gmaxwell: opentimestamps is the one where utxo queries are useful, if authenticated, and of course I've been arguing against non-expiring utxo commitments since forever
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