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   3 2014-05-09 00:01:35 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: looking very nice. Fast too.  So one issue (currently shared with bitcoind) is that it happly compiles on fedora and fails at runtime due to openssl ec gutting. :)
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   6 2014-05-09 00:03:31 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: its really easy to create a vault without the extension; and then it won't find it.
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  12 2014-05-09 00:07:00 <sipa> we need a startup sanity check
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  40 2014-05-09 00:48:05 <coryfields> sipa: i can handle that in the next few days. Still need to go the libc checks at startup as well, unless I missed someone sneaking that in already
  41 2014-05-09 00:48:49 <coryfields> *need to do
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  99 2014-05-09 01:56:47 <shesek> if someone happens to have tons of extra testnet coins, I'd appreciate to get some at n2t7tyoW5LLndXVrzgmm1zVSEkJ8jnbHWj
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 101 2014-05-09 01:58:29 <shesek> I need a few tens-hundreds of them for some script, and don't want to drain out the faucets :P
 102 2014-05-09 01:58:49 <lianj> why hundreds?
 103 2014-05-09 01:58:56 <arubi> whoa, that's a lot of coins even for testnet
 104 2014-05-09 01:59:04 <arubi> I can send you 3 :)
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 106 2014-05-09 02:00:14 <shesek> I'm sure there are people around holding thousands of them :)
 107 2014-05-09 02:00:26 <shesek> just running a miner on a normal cpu would get you tons of them
 108 2014-05-09 02:00:29 <arubi> I tried asking around a short while ago
 109 2014-05-09 02:00:37 <arubi> you'd be surprised
 110 2014-05-09 02:01:22 <arubi> difficulty is 1.0 now, but i'm guessing there are a few asics on the network
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 112 2014-05-09 02:01:46 <shesek> I'm writing something for Bitrated that'll automatically send coins to users testing out the next version... it might consume a lot of coins
 113 2014-05-09 02:02:16 <shesek> but maybe hundreds is a bit too much, a few tens to one hundred would probably suffice
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 115 2014-05-09 02:02:22 <arubi> you could work with smaller amounts then
 116 2014-05-09 02:02:25 <survic> shesek: most of the faucets have been drained by people using "dark wallet"
 117 2014-05-09 02:02:51 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 118 2014-05-09 02:03:16 <survic> should be easy enough to ask somebody with some miners to nab a few hundred blocks for you though
 119 2014-05-09 02:03:47 <shesek> arubi, I am, I'm usually using 0.001-0.01 per output for my own tests, but I still end up using quite a lot in total
 120 2014-05-09 02:04:07 <arubi> I see.. do you want 3 of my 5 testnet coins?
 121 2014-05-09 02:04:10 <shesek> I wanted to mine myself, but someone just started mining with an ASIC a few days ago
 122 2014-05-09 02:04:53 <shesek> arubi, nah, its okay, keep them. thanks though! :)
 123 2014-05-09 02:05:02 <shesek> I was hoping there's someone around with tons of them to spare
 124 2014-05-09 02:05:41 <arubi> np, good luck with the search. I couldn't find easy coins myself
 125 2014-05-09 02:06:28 <shesek> there's that faucet which is pretty good: http://faucet.xeno-genesis.com/
 126 2014-05-09 02:07:02 <arubi> that's what I used at first, yea
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 129 2014-05-09 02:11:13 <jrick> shesek: I have 100 I can send you
 130 2014-05-09 02:11:40 <jrick> oh you pasted your address nvm
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 135 2014-05-09 02:14:35 <shesek> jrick, got it. Thank you, its much appreciated!
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 140 2014-05-09 02:18:16 <survic> ,,bitcoin-otc
 141 2014-05-09 02:18:16 <gribble> Error: "bitcoin-otc" is not a valid command.
 142 2014-05-09 02:18:21 <survic> ugh.
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 170 2014-05-09 02:56:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: still need coins?
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 471 2014-05-09 09:35:25 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, nope, jrick sent me a 100 of them. thanks though :)
 472 2014-05-09 09:37:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|heh, too late
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 474 2014-05-09 09:40:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(about 4 hours too late, actually)
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 478 2014-05-09 09:48:32 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, oh, wow, that's a lot
 479 2014-05-09 09:48:42 <shesek> I have enough to last for a lifetime :)
 480 2014-05-09 09:48:44 <shesek> thanks!
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 500 2014-05-09 10:29:16 <melvster> 'As a recognition for the help and patience of our supporters we decided to organize a TREZOR Summer Party in Prague, the capital of Czech Republic.' -- woot -- hope some of you guys can come ...
 501 2014-05-09 10:31:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That would be cool
 502 2014-05-09 10:31:48 <melvster> we had the btc conf in prague back in 2011
 503 2014-05-09 10:31:59 <sipa> were you there, melvster?
 504 2014-05-09 10:32:06 <melvster> sipa: I sure was, were you?
 505 2014-05-09 10:32:07 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wonders when those (or a competitor?) will be available to the general public
 506 2014-05-09 10:32:10 <sipa> melvster: yes :)
 507 2014-05-09 10:32:35 psgs is now known as psgs|away
 508 2014-05-09 10:32:40 <melvster> sipa: maybe we met ... were you at the hard rock cafe the day before ... I had dinner with a few of the core devs ...
 509 2014-05-09 10:32:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I see the metal ones shipped yesterday
 510 2014-05-09 10:33:09 <melvster> yeah, cant wait to get mine ...
 511 2014-05-09 10:33:11 <hearn> s/shipped/are shipping/
 512 2014-05-09 10:33:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I hope once they're available for sale they are cheaper...
 513 2014-05-09 10:34:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It'd be a cool thing to have, but for that money I could buy a couple smartphones
 514 2014-05-09 10:34:14 <hearn> hard to know, isn’t it, given the rocky road they had
 515 2014-05-09 10:34:28 <hearn> beating smartphone prices won’t happen any time soon, i bet.
 516 2014-05-09 10:34:35 <hearn> economies of scale are hard to beat
 517 2014-05-09 10:34:47 <sipa> melvster: i was the only core dev in prague, afaik :)
 518 2014-05-09 10:34:49 <hearn> i’m hoping that they start to sell TREZOR outside of the bitcoin community, for corporate security and other purposes
 519 2014-05-09 10:35:08 <hearn> so they can ramp up production volumes. LOTS of industries need a secure display and two buttons that fits on a keyring
 520 2014-05-09 10:35:09 <sipa> melvster: and i was at the hard rock cafe too
 521 2014-05-09 10:35:30 jaromil has joined
 522 2014-05-09 10:36:19 <melvster> sipa: i might have bought you dinner :)  there was a group of about 6 of us on the right ... was a cool event ...
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 524 2014-05-09 10:36:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|hearn: When were the 1 and 3 BTC prices set?
 525 2014-05-09 10:36:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(do you know?)
 526 2014-05-09 10:36:58 <melvster> loooong time ago
 527 2014-05-09 10:37:04 <melvster> when btc was about 100 ish i think
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 532 2014-05-09 10:40:01 <melvster> sipa: funnily enough, amir, who organized that conf, found out about bitcoin thru me ... at first he was a sceptic after looking at bitcointalk, but I managed to persuade him it was a cool project
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 534 2014-05-09 10:40:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|http://satoshilabs.com/news/2013-06-14-trezor-pre-sales-launched/
 535 2014-05-09 10:41:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So yeah, hovering around 100
 536 2014-05-09 10:41:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|13:31:54 <hearn> beating smartphone prices won’t happen any time soon, i bet. <-- In other words, that already happened
 537 2014-05-09 10:41:56 <melvster> i used to sit next to marek in the office back then ... and I promised to support the project and ordered a few ... tho technically hearn was the first 'official' pre order :)
 538 2014-05-09 10:42:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Cool, didn't know that
 539 2014-05-09 10:42:28 banghouse has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 541 2014-05-09 10:42:38 <jouke> Bought some trezors as Christmas gifts for our employees.
 542 2014-05-09 10:43:02 <melvster> anyway I live in prague now ... so if any of you guys are coming for the party, maybe I can help out, or would be cool to meet ...
 543 2014-05-09 10:43:17 <sipa> melvster: i was sitting at a table with gary rowe and jim burton
 544 2014-05-09 10:43:40 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wonders if any major Bitcoin event will happen in Israel any time soon
 545 2014-05-09 10:43:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(one attended internationally, I mean)
 546 2014-05-09 10:43:55 <melvster> sipa: im terrible with names ... but rings a bell ... so maybe we met already :)
 547 2014-05-09 10:44:11 <sipa> hehe
 548 2014-05-09 10:44:31 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: meni has been trying to invite me for a conference there
 549 2014-05-09 10:45:19 <SomeoneWeird> how about one that somebody pays me to attend
 550 2014-05-09 10:45:21 <SomeoneWeird> that would be awesome
 551 2014-05-09 10:45:34 <SomeoneWeird> c_c
 552 2014-05-09 10:45:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If someone were to pay someone to attend, it would probably be someone normal :P
 553 2014-05-09 10:46:06 <SomeoneWeird> aw
 554 2014-05-09 10:46:20 <hearn> michagogo|cloud: eh, smartphones cost <$100 now
 555 2014-05-09 10:46:20 <SomeoneWeird>  /topic Only non-normal people allowed in here.
 556 2014-05-09 10:46:34 <hearn> michagogo|cloud: and that was the pre-order. they didn’t know their own dev costs back then. so. …. we’ll see
 557 2014-05-09 10:46:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|hearn: huh?
 558 2014-05-09 10:47:04 <hearn> you said it’d already happened?
 559 2014-05-09 10:47:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|hearn: oh, on a 2-year contract?
 560 2014-05-09 10:47:10 <hearn> o
 561 2014-05-09 10:47:12 <hearn> no
 562 2014-05-09 10:47:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|o_O
 563 2014-05-09 10:47:29 <hearn> where do you live, btw? the usa?
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 565 2014-05-09 10:47:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Israel
 566 2014-05-09 10:47:46 <hearn> you can buy $80 or $50 cheap android smartphones with no contract for some time already
 567 2014-05-09 10:47:55 <hearn> they used to be low end gingerbreads but now they’re actually kitkats
 568 2014-05-09 10:48:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, cheap android smartphones
 569 2014-05-09 10:48:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Not exactly what I had in mind
 570 2014-05-09 10:48:23 * sipa currently actually uses one of those
 571 2014-05-09 10:48:31 <hearn> well, i say “cheap” because they are, but they have all the functionality of the high end phones, pretty much
 572 2014-05-09 10:48:34 <SomeoneWeird> you monster, sipa
 573 2014-05-09 10:48:34 <hearn> the differences are not what you’d expect
 574 2014-05-09 10:48:38 <sipa> (because i forgot my nexus 5 in belgium)
 575 2014-05-09 10:48:48 <SomeoneWeird> how did you manage that?
 576 2014-05-09 10:48:53 <hearn> china + free software + massive economies of scale from selling to the third world + brutal competition == amazing prices
 577 2014-05-09 10:49:03 <sipa> by putting it somewhere, and not picking it up again?
 578 2014-05-09 10:49:13 <hearn> michagogo|cloud: what did you have in mind when i said “smartphone"?
 579 2014-05-09 10:49:23 eristisk has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 580 2014-05-09 10:49:40 <sipa> tbh, the statement "smartphones cost <$100" seems to imply that all smartphones are that cheap ;)
 581 2014-05-09 10:50:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well, my first thought is an iPhone, perhaps one of Samsung's Galaxy line
 582 2014-05-09 10:50:29 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|slaps Luke-Jr around a bit with a large trout
 583 2014-05-09 10:50:32 <hearn> the markup on iPhone’s is insane, nobody uses their prices for calibration anymore. the nexus 5 beats it in every way and costs like $290 or something like that, instead of $700
 584 2014-05-09 10:50:43 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|disagrees
 585 2014-05-09 10:50:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I've tried Android, and I dislike it
 586 2014-05-09 10:51:02 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: now now, you're the one going off-topic in here promoting a group of armed illegal aliens :P
 587 2014-05-09 10:51:17 <hearn> sucks for you - you’re paying >2x for phones that do less. but anyway, there is no debating that these phones are smart  …. check this one
 588 2014-05-09 10:51:18 <hearn> http://www.zdnet.com/sub-50-android-smartphone-hits-south-africa-as-mtn-launches-steppa-7000025828/
 589 2014-05-09 10:51:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...armed illegal aliens?
 590 2014-05-09 10:51:27 <hearn> it’s gingerbread but it’s actually less than $50
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 592 2014-05-09 10:52:54 <hearn> hmm from searching it seems the current rumour is the next nexus phone will be $100 or less. not sure if that’s true. nexus devices are usually competitive/better than iphones
 593 2014-05-09 10:53:16 <hearn> anyway here’s one that runs jellybean for $83 .. http://www.amazon.com/BLU-Advance-Unlocked-Phone-White/dp/B00HPTMCRI/ref=sr_1_1?s=wireless&ie=UTF8&qid=1399632597&sr=1-1
 594 2014-05-09 10:53:29 <hearn> so yeah. TREZOR is probably going to cost more than a good smartphone
 595 2014-05-09 10:53:38 <hearn> but that’s OK. you pay for the security not the features
 596 2014-05-09 10:54:54 <sipa> hearn: the majority of people doesn't pay for security :)
 597 2014-05-09 10:55:00 <sipa> +want to
 598 2014-05-09 10:55:13 <hearn> right :) i guess most bitcoin users (the long tail) will be using risk analysis services that SMS you details of the tx
 599 2014-05-09 10:55:22 ralphtheninja has quit (Quit: leaving)
 600 2014-05-09 10:55:45 <hearn> and then heavy users will want to save money on the RA services and buy the hardware. *assuming*, that is, that RA services don’t get flooded with money from silicon valley and simply give away their services for free for years which is something i’m a bit concerned about
 601 2014-05-09 10:55:55 <hearn> VC has a nasty habit of totally distorting and breaking markets
 602 2014-05-09 10:56:02 <dexX7> hearn: did http://www.bitcoinj.org/working-with-micropayments move?
 603 2014-05-09 10:56:22 <hearn> dexX7: DNS is fudged at the moment. use this url: http://bitcoinj.github.io/working-with-micropayments
 604 2014-05-09 10:56:34 <dexX7> ah, ty
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 608 2014-05-09 11:00:46 <hearn> the other thing that could happen is RA services cross-subsidise their consumer service with some other revenue stream, which would also make it hard for trezor to compete
 609 2014-05-09 11:01:16 <hearn> i really like the trezor and the guys doing it, but i do worry that it just won’t be competitive in the long run against cheaper less decentralised services
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 653 2014-05-09 12:19:38 <hearn_> dexX7: bitcoinj.org should be fixed now - sorry for the hassle
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 655 2014-05-09 12:20:30 <dexX7> no worries, thanks! :)
 656 2014-05-09 12:21:07 <hearn_> dexX7: are you planning on doing a micropayment app?
 657 2014-05-09 12:21:09 <sipa> hearn_: i have been thinking about an extension to the payment protocol to make the backchannel more reliable
 658 2014-05-09 12:21:18 hearn_ is now known as hearn
 659 2014-05-09 12:21:25 * hearn is listening
 660 2014-05-09 12:21:38 <sipa> hearn_: namely, allowing the payment message to contain a transaction without txins
 661 2014-05-09 12:22:13 <sipa> without scriptSigs, sorry
 662 2014-05-09 12:22:20 <sipa> hearn: so the payment request would get an extra boolean saying "i will ack payments without scriptSigs"
 663 2014-05-09 12:22:43 <sipa> and a paymentACK on a scriptsiglesstx + an accepted tx in the blockchain matching it would be a proof of payment
 664 2014-05-09 12:23:02 <sipa> this means you can safely request the ack before actually risking losing money
 665 2014-05-09 12:23:23 <sipa> it's even compatible with multiple payments in one bitcoin transaction
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 667 2014-05-09 12:23:43 <hearn> hmm
 668 2014-05-09 12:24:00 <dexX7> hearn: would be really nice, but this was actually only for educational purposes
 669 2014-05-09 12:24:03 <hearn> the PaymentACK message is supposed to mean that the merchant actually got the money and is satisfied enough to render the service/provide the goods
 670 2014-05-09 12:24:03 <sipa> and since the ack is signed, the memo/refund and any other extra backchannel data is signed by the payee
 671 2014-05-09 12:24:12 <hearn> so this would change the meaning of the ACK.
 672 2014-05-09 12:24:32 <sipa> ack means "this valid to me"
 673 2014-05-09 12:24:48 <sipa> if you double spend it, it's not a valid payment
 674 2014-05-09 12:25:28 <sipa> and if something goes wrong on the path from payer to payee, and the memo gets dropped (or modified, or the payee changes it), it means you don't pay them
 675 2014-05-09 12:25:31 <hearn> hmm. seems the ACK doesn’t actually have a defined meaning in BIP 70. oops.
 676 2014-05-09 12:25:42 <sipa> this would give it a clear meaning
 677 2014-05-09 12:26:07 <sipa> "i consider this a valid transaction for the requested payment, assuming it goes through"
 678 2014-05-09 12:26:10 <hearn> one of the reasons for the ACK with the memo was to get things like dice sites away from using micropayments as an “answer”
 679 2014-05-09 12:26:12 <jouke> But don't you need the scriptsigs to determine if the fee is high enough?
 680 2014-05-09 12:26:22 <hearn> this would not work for that.
 681 2014-05-09 12:26:42 <sipa> hearn: well then they don't use this functionality
 682 2014-05-09 12:27:03 <sipa> i consider having a reliable and uncheatable backchannel pretty essential
 683 2014-05-09 12:27:20 <hearn> besides, how does this increase reliability? you still need to communicate with the payment_url. at that point submitting the signed tx doesn’t change anything. once the merchant has sent you the ACK it means you’re getting what you wanted. at that point it’s up to the merchant to ensure they use the tx to actually get paid/confirmed. for instance by broadcasting it, or submitting directly to some miners, or whatever
 684 2014-05-09 12:27:21 <sipa> jouke: good point!
 685 2014-05-09 12:27:46 <hearn> it seems all this does is move responsibility for broadcast from receipient to sender?
 686 2014-05-09 12:27:46 <sipa> hearn: the merchant can broadcast the transaction without acking
 687 2014-05-09 12:28:04 <sipa> with this proposal, he can't
 688 2014-05-09 12:28:15 <sipa> you can still send the full transaction to them
 689 2014-05-09 12:28:21 <sipa> to have them broadcast it
 690 2014-05-09 12:28:25 <sipa> in a second phase
 691 2014-05-09 12:28:32 <hearn> yes, but does it matter? the ack doesn’t have much meaning, indeed. both sides can still prove the payment happened without the ack. it’s really just there as a messaging system
 692 2014-05-09 12:28:40 <sipa> this gives the ack meaning
 693 2014-05-09 12:28:47 <sipa> it means you get to disagree with it
 694 2014-05-09 12:29:00 <sipa> without risking losing money
 695 2014-05-09 12:29:13 <hearn> what kind of disagreement would happen at ACK time that cannot happen when you first read the Payment message
 696 2014-05-09 12:29:50 <sipa> the problem i want to solve is make it *impossible* for the bitcoin transaction to go through without both parties agreeing
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 698 2014-05-09 12:30:12 <sipa> agreeing on the amount, on the scripts used, on the memo used, on the refund used, on the timestamp not being expired, ...
 699 2014-05-09 12:30:31 <hearn> i thought that’s what bip 70 already did :) the merchant requests payment for a specific thing, with terms possibly outlined in the memo field, and a signature to prove they wrote it. the upload of a signed transaction signals agreement
 700 2014-05-09 12:31:00 tocks has joined
 701 2014-05-09 12:31:02 <jouke> But the receiver sets the terms and agrees on it beforehand.
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 703 2014-05-09 12:31:17 <sipa> the merchant can refuse to give you an ack, but still broadcast the transaction
 704 2014-05-09 12:31:40 <jouke> and later claim the transaction was not done on time
 705 2014-05-09 12:31:49 <hearn> yes but an ACK doesn’t change the nature of the agreement. it’s just a way to display a message on the screen saying “Thanks for your purchase! Have a nice day!” or for dice sites “you won/you lost”. it doesn’t have much value beyond that today.
 706 2014-05-09 12:32:04 <sipa> this would give it more meaning
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 708 2014-05-09 12:32:17 <sipa> namely the ability to disagree with it, and not go through with the transaction
 709 2014-05-09 12:32:25 <hearn> i know that’s what you want to do, but i still don’t understand why. it’s meaningless on purpose. you want bip 70 to turn into a multi-step negotiation protocol?
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 712 2014-05-09 12:32:41 <hearn> surely the right place to do a business negotiation is out of band, with the payment request just representing the final agreement
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 714 2014-05-09 12:32:46 <sipa> it adds a step, yes
 715 2014-05-09 12:33:19 <sipa> for example, anyone on the network who sees the payment message can broadcast the transaction
 716 2014-05-09 12:33:24 <sipa> even if the merchant doesn't get it
 717 2014-05-09 12:33:52 <hearn> the payment message is only sent to the merchant, so how does that happen?
 718 2014-05-09 12:34:02 <jouke> merchant could use https for the payment protocol
 719 2014-05-09 12:34:08 <sipa> yes, and he should
 720 2014-05-09 12:34:18 <sipa> but https isn't the only supported transport
 721 2014-05-09 12:34:18 <hearn> and i think all of the existing ones do
 722 2014-05-09 12:34:43 <Grouver> Did anyone already take a look at this? :(   https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3665
 723 2014-05-09 12:35:05 <sipa> basically, when sending a payment message, you must be completely final in your decision that you're ready to send money
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 725 2014-05-09 12:35:16 <sipa> there is no guaranteed way of cancelling anymore
 726 2014-05-09 12:35:20 <jouke> The only usecase I can think of is that the receiver can claim that the transaction was not done in time, but your proposal doesn't really solve that issue I believe?
 727 2014-05-09 12:35:45 <jouke> Grouver: I believe I saw a commit on it recently.
 728 2014-05-09 12:36:10 <Grouver> jouke, nice. okay.
 729 2014-05-09 12:36:21 <sipa> yet the merchant may (for legitimate or illegitimate reasons) not accept the payment
 730 2014-05-09 12:36:51 <sipa> this extra step makes sure both parties fully agree on both the payment request and the payment
 731 2014-05-09 12:37:01 <sipa> before the actual money has a chance to move
 732 2014-05-09 12:37:26 <jouke> But he can still disagree when the scriptsigs are added
 733 2014-05-09 12:37:58 <sipa> no, as paymentack + matching confirmed transaction would be a valid payment proof
 734 2014-05-09 12:38:11 <sipa> the receiver doesn't care about the scriptsigs
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 736 2014-05-09 12:38:31 <jouke> The scriptsigs might be unreasonable large?
 737 2014-05-09 12:38:46 <sipa> regarding the size they add: good point; it can be avoided by also putting a total max tx size in the payment message
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 739 2014-05-09 12:39:06 <jouke> True. But what about the time-issue?
 740 2014-05-09 12:39:17 <hearn> but the payment is crafted as the merchant requested
 741 2014-05-09 12:39:31 <hearn> so the merchant agrees to it by definition, when they formatted the Payment message
 742 2014-05-09 12:39:42 <hearn> and by uploading a signed tx that satisfies those outputs, the buyer signals agreement too
 743 2014-05-09 12:39:54 <hearn> so i’m still not sure what exact real world scenario this addresses
 744 2014-05-09 12:40:10 <hearn> i mean, other payment methods don’t have anything like this AFAICT
 745 2014-05-09 12:40:20 <sipa> ... removing the risk that a transaction confirms but the payment isn't accepted
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 747 2014-05-09 12:40:51 <sipa> + it gives the sender the guarantee that the receiver saw the refund address
 748 2014-05-09 12:41:10 <sipa> (or whatever other fields we want to add to the return channel)
 749 2014-05-09 12:41:51 <hearn> a confirmed tx that pays the merchants requested outputs is complete and must be accepted, otherwise it’s just plain old fraud. in what circumstance would a tx that pays the outputs the merchant requested, that is confirmed on the block chain, somehow be legitimately unacceptable as payment?
 750 2014-05-09 12:42:18 <hearn> the only one i can think of is if the payment came much, much later than requested. but the block chain timestamps things and the payment request has an expiry time in
 751 2014-05-09 12:42:25 <sipa> what if the merchant never saw the refund address?
 752 2014-05-09 12:42:26 <hearn> so the merchant can say “yes they paid my addresses. but only 3 months later
 753 2014-05-09 12:42:48 <hearn> so then an arbiter can say ok the payment is not valid because you didn’t fulfil the terms of the contract. avoiding this is the reason for direct submission anyway.
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 755 2014-05-09 12:43:11 <hearn> sipa: how does that happen? the Payment is submitted to the merchant via some protocol, we assume that protocol is reliable. e.g. for HTTPS there is a 200 OK or a 400 Bad Request error
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 757 2014-05-09 12:43:15 <sipa> i know, but gavin doesn't want to require direct submission
 758 2014-05-09 12:43:25 <jouke> which is optional in android wallet btw
 759 2014-05-09 12:43:28 <jouke> exactly.
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 761 2014-05-09 12:43:50 <hearn> it’s not intended to remain optional, actually
 762 2014-05-09 12:44:04 <hearn> andreas just didn’t take it out yet - it’s a holdover from reusing code written for bluetooth back when that was experimental
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 764 2014-05-09 12:44:23 <hearn> but yes this is why i argued for direct submission only and it’s what i think most wallets are implementing.
 765 2014-05-09 12:44:30 <jouke> We consider a refund address a realy realy nice feature to have, but you have to take into consideration that  the direct submission may fail, but the actual transaction might reach the p2p network
 766 2014-05-09 12:44:33 <hearn> it solves a lot of problems
 767 2014-05-09 12:44:45 <sipa> jouke: yes, that is my problem: the backchannel is not reliable
 768 2014-05-09 12:44:48 <hearn> well, if a wallet doesn’t broadcast it, then it can’t reach the p2p network
 769 2014-05-09 12:44:55 <hearn> so there is only the backchannel and that problem doesn’t happen
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 771 2014-05-09 12:45:07 <jouke> I would prefer direct submission only as well
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 773 2014-05-09 12:45:19 <sipa> hearn: gavin wanted support for using one transaction for multiple payments
 774 2014-05-09 12:45:38 <sipa> hearn: which is incompatible with that, as one merchant may broadcast before the others have agreed
 775 2014-05-09 12:45:51 <jouke> Ah. didn't think of that usecase.
 776 2014-05-09 12:45:53 <jouke> Makes sense.
 777 2014-05-09 12:45:54 <hearn> yeah. i think we’re not going to be able to have that feature. it’s not compatible with other things
 778 2014-05-09 12:46:04 <sipa> it is compatible with my proposal
 779 2014-05-09 12:46:23 <jouke> hearn: maybe wallets like coinbase might use it?
 780 2014-05-09 12:47:11 <sipa> i'm not sure that use case is a priority, but it was part of gavin's reasoning against requiring direct submission
 781 2014-05-09 12:47:29 <hearn> people already complain massively about the huge delays coinbase puts on transactions, so i hope they would not do that
 782 2014-05-09 12:47:36 <sipa> requiring direct submission would remove part of my concerns with the reliability of the backchannel, but not as waterproof as my proposal
 783 2014-05-09 12:48:21 <hearn> i’m not sure what you’re proposing changes anything. with direct submission, you provide a Payment message. if you get back 200 OK it means the merchant saw everything in the message, understood it and is fine with it.
 784 2014-05-09 12:48:29 <hearn> their broadcast of the tx indicates acceptance
 785 2014-05-09 12:49:20 <hearn> but if at some point there is something where merchants might legitimately want to reject based on the contents of a Payment message then yes, we could add another round
 786 2014-05-09 12:49:32 <hearn> at the moment i’m not sure there is. transactions that violate the IsStandard rules, perhaps?
 787 2014-05-09 12:49:58 <hearn> but then they can just refuse the Payment message. if they take the money anyway, back to square one - they might have returned 400 Bad Request but they took the money, so the sale is final
 788 2014-05-09 12:50:08 <sipa> they can still broadcast without giving you an ack (=proof of payment), they may disagree that that transaction will confirm in reasonable time, their clock may be off and the address may have expired, they may change the refund address in your payment to something of their own and do a refund a later claim that the transaction was succesfully refunded, ...
 789 2014-05-09 12:50:19 <hearn> the ACK is not the proof of payment
 790 2014-05-09 12:50:26 <hearn> ACK is not signed so it proves nothing, by itself. it’s not auditable.
 791 2014-05-09 12:50:28 <sipa> ACK + transaction is proof of payment
 792 2014-05-09 12:50:36 <hearn> no. PaymentRequest + transaction is proof of payment
 793 2014-05-09 12:50:45 <hearn> it’s the PaymentRequest that’s signed. everything else is forgeable.
 794 2014-05-09 12:50:51 <sipa> what?
 795 2014-05-09 12:50:54 <sipa> seriously?
 796 2014-05-09 12:51:04 <hearn> huh? you did read BIP 70, right?
 797 2014-05-09 12:51:10 <hearn> are we talking about the same protocol? :)
 798 2014-05-09 12:51:38 <jouke> A signed refund-address might be a nice feature
 799 2014-05-09 12:51:48 <sipa> ok, i hereby retract my proposal
 800 2014-05-09 12:51:56 <sipa> it's pointless if the ack isn't signed
 801 2014-05-09 12:51:58 <hearn> yeah. we talked about that at the time. but we wanted to simplify and ship
 802 2014-05-09 12:52:18 <sipa> but it makes the entire backchannel feature very unreliable imho
 803 2014-05-09 12:52:19 <hearn> you’d have to sign the Payment with a key from the transaction, as well, so you end up in a mess with different kinds of script types and stuff like that
 804 2014-05-09 12:52:39 <jouke> With all the bitcoin pkscripts changing mallware.
 805 2014-05-09 12:53:04 <hearn> yeah. again we did discuss this, i remember talking about it with gavin. i don’t recall where exactly.
 806 2014-05-09 12:53:30 <sipa> i very much dislike requiring signatures using the payment tx key
 807 2014-05-09 12:53:35 <sipa> it breaks the transparency
 808 2014-05-09 12:53:35 <hearn> we decided, if MITM changing refund addresses starts to become a problem, we can bite the bullet and define ways to make scriptSigs to keys that can be used to sign the Payment message
 809 2014-05-09 12:53:39 <hearn> yeah
 810 2014-05-09 12:53:48 <sipa> plus it means the sender and payer have to be the same entity
 811 2014-05-09 12:53:49 <hearn> the problem is, most users don’t have any kind of other key that is meaningful.
 812 2014-05-09 12:53:55 <sipa> there's no need
 813 2014-05-09 12:53:59 <hearn> so that’s another reason we didn’t tackle it in v1
 814 2014-05-09 12:54:04 <sipa> a signed ack + my proposal would make it safe regardless
 815 2014-05-09 12:54:22 <sipa> if the signed ack doesn't contain the correct refund address, you don't pay
 816 2014-05-09 12:54:48 <hearn> yes, that also works. i’m not sure how well it plays with the async store-and-forward use case where the recipient may be offline at the time you’re trying to pay them though
 817 2014-05-09 12:55:06 <sipa> yeah, you want some delegation i guess
 818 2014-05-09 12:55:09 <hearn> the nice thing about the current protocol is, you can craft a long term PaymentRequest and then just let Payment messages stream in. the ACK is sort of just a convenience, it’s not realy essential
 819 2014-05-09 12:55:15 <sipa> where the ack may be signed by a different key than the request
 820 2014-05-09 12:55:37 <sipa> the ack is a way to know the backchannel worked
 821 2014-05-09 12:56:25 <hearn> well, *today* it’s just a convenience. the assumption is that the protocol runs over some other protocol that provides request/response semantics, like http.
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 823 2014-05-09 12:56:42 <hearn> so it’s possible for a Payment to be rejected/accepted at a lower level
 824 2014-05-09 12:56:48 <hearn> but it may at some point make sense to change it yes
 825 2014-05-09 12:56:53 <sipa> anyway
 826 2014-05-09 12:56:59 <sipa> it's not a proposal for today
 827 2014-05-09 12:57:05 <sipa> but i'd very much like to see it in a v2 :)
 828 2014-05-09 12:57:37 <hearn> heh ok :) i’m hoping we won’t need a backwards incompatible version for a long time. though it may be useful to have an optionally backwards incompatible version if a wallet wants to force the usage of new features, rather than getting paid in a worse way.
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 830 2014-05-09 12:57:48 <hearn> but a v1.1 or v1.2 or whatever, sure
 831 2014-05-09 12:57:52 <hearn> hi there gavinandresen
 832 2014-05-09 12:57:59 <gavinandresen> howdy
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 848 2014-05-09 13:36:53 <maraoz> would it make sense to have blocks that reference more than one hashPrevBlock, if those pointed to non-conflicting forks?
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 850 2014-05-09 13:38:56 <maraoz> that way we could have part of the network mining on some fork, and then merge the branches later into the "main blockchain", as long as there's no conflicting transactions (i.e only different outputs were spent on the branch)
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 852 2014-05-09 13:42:39 <wumpus> howdy
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 854 2014-05-09 13:43:12 <wumpus> warren: I'm going to split off the 0.9.2 branch now
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 865 2014-05-09 13:44:27 <venzen> wumpus, when is the official release date for 0.9.2?
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 869 2014-05-09 13:44:43 <survic> maraoz: that wouldn't achieve much. stale chains have their transactions returned to the memory pool.
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 881 2014-05-09 13:46:52 <wumpus> venzen: the plan is to release rc1 the 13th, but as you know, no guarantees, it's done when it's done
 882 2014-05-09 13:47:54 <venzen> wumpus: thanks, i won't publish until it's confirmed here
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 884 2014-05-09 13:49:24 <venzen> wumpus: in fact, i prefer to publish after the signing and official announcement so that the facts are straight
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 887 2014-05-09 13:57:08 <wumpus> venzen: great
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 891 2014-05-09 14:05:40 <maraoz> survic: if branches were allowed to be mined (without reward) at a much lower difficulty, you could have local forks of the blockchain to deal with local transactions
 892 2014-05-09 14:07:51 <survic> maraoz: that's not a good idea, just reaching convergence might never happen, then you're stuck with a dinky side chain that's stale. not worth forking the chain for that anyway.
 893 2014-05-09 14:08:03 <Luke-Jr> maraoz: with no value to the forks..
 894 2014-05-09 14:08:09 <Luke-Jr> what survic said :P
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 904 2014-05-09 14:10:13 <maraoz> Luke-Jr, survic: ok let me think about it better :)
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 927 2014-05-09 14:34:13 <CodeShark> sidechains with lower difficulty and lower rewards that could still be used for total difficulty calculation could work (i.e. GHOST and its derivatives)
 928 2014-05-09 14:35:08 <survic> if there's lower reward nobody will mine them.
 929 2014-05-09 14:35:35 <coryfields> wumpus: ping
 930 2014-05-09 14:35:39 <CodeShark> huh? you mine for the higher difficulty - but if you happen to stumble upon a lower difficulty share, you could still submit it
 931 2014-05-09 14:36:06 <survic> so, merge mining?
 932 2014-05-09 14:36:12 <CodeShark> sorta
 933 2014-05-09 14:36:21 <coryfields> wumpus: the deterministic build is ready, i'm going to spend a few hours today getting it all shoved into gitian descriptors. Thing is, it's going to be kinda unruly
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 935 2014-05-09 14:36:30 <coryfields> curious to hear your thoughts.
 936 2014-05-09 14:36:39 <Luke-Jr> unruly?
 937 2014-05-09 14:36:46 <CodeShark> it's not exactly merge mining because in merge mining you're dealing with separate chains entirely
 938 2014-05-09 14:37:02 <survic> you can't mine on two heads at once though
 939 2014-05-09 14:37:03 <coryfields> I'm not sure how I'd like it to look once it's all cleaned up. But for .9.2, about all I can do is shove it all into a handful of descriptors
 940 2014-05-09 14:37:48 <survic> at least not with our current header system. I don't see that changing given the amount of software built into hardware with it.
 941 2014-05-09 14:38:34 <coryfields> Luke-Jr: I wanted to have some cleaner approach before PRing it upstream. But if it's going to make it into the next release, I don't really have time for that. It'll be pretty rough to review.
 942 2014-05-09 14:39:03 <sipa> CodeShark: like the p2pool sharechain?
 943 2014-05-09 14:39:14 <CodeShark> sipa - yeah, something similar, perhaps
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 946 2014-05-09 14:41:11 <coryfields> anyway, I'm going to go ahead and start shoving it into some descriptors. If you guys find it too ugly, we can push back to a later release
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 948 2014-05-09 14:42:31 <Luke-Jr> coryfields: I thought this was all done months ago? :/
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 951 2014-05-09 14:43:19 <coryfields> Luke-Jr: it was done, yea, but there were a few TODOs, and some things have changed since
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 953 2014-05-09 14:43:50 <coryfields> Luke-Jr: it now uses qt5, shares the source deps with win32, dmg compression is enabled, etc
 954 2014-05-09 14:44:19 <coryfields> so i'm pushing for mainline inclusion this time around
 955 2014-05-09 14:44:50 <Luke-Jr> ah
 956 2014-05-09 14:45:12 <Luke-Jr> good ideas ☺
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 961 2014-05-09 14:46:14 <coryfields> compression took it from ~57mb to ~18 :)
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 989 2014-05-09 15:14:37 <wumpus> coryfields: poing
 990 2014-05-09 15:15:07 <wumpus> coryfields: as long as there are clear instructions, it doesn't matter if it's going to be a bit unruly
 991 2014-05-09 15:15:20 <wumpus> coryfields: let's just get it to work! :)
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 993 2014-05-09 15:16:39 <wumpus> coryfields: and anyway as the current way of building mac releases sucks completely, it can only improve
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 997 2014-05-09 15:17:14 <coryfields> ok
 998 2014-05-09 15:17:23 <coryfields> will try to get the PR up today
 999 2014-05-09 15:17:51 <coryfields> just be sure to give more weight to the result than the process ;)
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1003 2014-05-09 15:21:18 <coryfields> also, my macbook died (again) yesterday. So I'm kinda flying blind until next week
1004 2014-05-09 15:21:31 <coryfields> I can get it up long enough to verify that bitcoin-qt runs, but that's about it
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1017 2014-05-09 15:30:07 <wumpus> I cannot verify the macosx builds either, but there are enough people that can, building for mac is the hard part
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1029 2014-05-09 15:44:04 <wumpus> can anyone help with upgrading leveldb to 1.17? I always mess up subtree merges, ending up scattering files all through the tree
1030 2014-05-09 15:45:34 <sipa> wumpus: willdo
1031 2014-05-09 15:45:58 <wumpus> sipa: thanks
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1034 2014-05-09 15:48:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: you could always just back up the bitcoin/ dir :P
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1048 2014-05-09 16:10:52 <hearn> wumpus: yeah i found subtrees to be confusing. rebases seem to kill them too
1049 2014-05-09 16:11:07 <sipa> rebases always kill merges
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1051 2014-05-09 16:11:20 <sipa> but agree, they're confusing
1052 2014-05-09 16:12:09 <sipa> anyway, pushed a 1.17 version to the bitcoin/leveldb repo
1053 2014-05-09 16:12:19 <sipa> now running the leveldb unit tests on it
1054 2014-05-09 16:12:24 <sipa> afterwards i'll pullreq
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1059 2014-05-09 16:16:37 <sipa> wumpus: do we want to revert the .sst/.ldb switch?
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1063 2014-05-09 16:17:30 <sipa> wumpus: summary: leveldb 1.14 or so changed the default extension for writing to .ldb instead of the .sst that older versions used; this broke bitcoind's downgrading functionality (as older bitcoind with older leveldb didn't read .ldb at all)
1064 2014-05-09 16:17:53 <sipa> wumpus: since then 0.9 has been released, and presumably 0.10 will break backward compatibility again
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1067 2014-05-09 16:18:53 <hearn> did the name change cooincide with a format change?
1068 2014-05-09 16:19:17 <sipa> at the leveldb side? no
1069 2014-05-09 16:19:25 <hearn> seems like a dick move for them to change the name like that but not the format
1070 2014-05-09 16:19:25 <wumpus> sipa: I think it makes sense to keep that
1071 2014-05-09 16:19:34 <sipa> but 0.9 broke backward compatibility anyway
1072 2014-05-09 16:19:43 <sipa> and 0.10 will presumably do so again
1073 2014-05-09 16:19:51 <sipa> wumpus: which? write to .ldb or to .sst?
1074 2014-05-09 16:19:55 <wumpus> that's true
1075 2014-05-09 16:20:02 <sipa> i prefer staying as close as possible to upstream
1076 2014-05-09 16:20:28 <hearn> why do you say it’ll do so again?
1077 2014-05-09 16:20:31 <wumpus> okay, but I suppose we also want the leveldb upgrade for 0.9.2, and I think it's counter-intuitive to change such a thing in a minor version
1078 2014-05-09 16:20:32 <hearn> because of headers first?
1079 2014-05-09 16:20:40 <sipa> yes
1080 2014-05-09 16:20:56 <sipa> wumpus: 0.9 uses modern leveldb, so there is no problem
1081 2014-05-09 16:21:09 <wumpus> ok
1082 2014-05-09 16:21:10 <sipa> 0.9's leveldb reads both .sst and .ldb, but writes to .sst
1083 2014-05-09 16:21:12 <hearn> ah
1084 2014-05-09 16:21:13 <hearn> i see
1085 2014-05-09 16:21:22 <hearn> seems better to just keep the upstream behaviour then
1086 2014-05-09 16:21:42 <wumpus> yes, let's switch to upstream behaviour then
1087 2014-05-09 16:21:47 <sipa> we temporarily swapped .sst and .ldb for a few versions to retain backwards compatibility, but forward is never a problem
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1089 2014-05-09 16:21:50 <sipa> oki!
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1101 2014-05-09 16:32:25 <gmaxwell> hearn: the prior name was causing windows system restore to corrupt the database.
1102 2014-05-09 16:32:35 <hearn> huh!
1103 2014-05-09 16:32:42 <hearn> that’s ……
1104 2014-05-09 16:32:47 <hearn> i can’t think of an adjective
1105 2014-05-09 16:33:02 <hearn> i guess sst == System reSTore point or somehing
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1108 2014-05-09 16:33:25 <sipa> yes! but .ldb conflicts with the LogDB file format i once wrote as replacement for wallet.dat!
1109 2014-05-09 16:33:43 <hearn> so far my personal file extension is safe.
1110 2014-05-09 16:33:45 <hearn> nobody elses uses .sux
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1112 2014-05-09 16:35:27 <gmaxwell> hearn: we've also recently had a rash of complaints about windows AV software corrupting nodes because of 16 byte malware signatures in the chainstate. Amusingly, we've had testcases in testnet forever, but they were in the blocks not the chainstate, and apparently most (all?) av software ignores files over 32mbytes.
1113 2014-05-09 16:36:21 <hearn> i wonder how easy it is to adjust the file size leveldb uses.
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1115 2014-05-09 16:37:26 <gmaxwell> it doesn't looke like leveldb preallocates— some of the files are smaller than the normal size.
1116 2014-05-09 16:39:03 <hearn> i think mmap on some systems might have once done that
1117 2014-05-09 16:39:08 <hearn> don’t recall
1118 2014-05-09 16:39:21 <hearn> right. home time.
1119 2014-05-09 16:39:28 <sipa> they only use mmap for reading, afaik
1120 2014-05-09 16:39:58 <posita> @hearn: see http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2250551 (re: .sux; NSFW)
1121 2014-05-09 16:40:20 <posita> (Off topic, by the way.)
1122 2014-05-09 16:40:24 <gmaxwell> In any case, the av false positives can be more reliably surpressed by obfuscating the data.
1123 2014-05-09 16:40:33 <hearn> yes indeed
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1176 2014-05-09 17:23:48 <zone117x> sipa you there?
1177 2014-05-09 17:23:56 <zone117x> having troubles getting testnet to stay local
1178 2014-05-09 17:24:06 <zone117x> using listen=0 in conf for main daemon
1179 2014-05-09 17:24:24 <zone117x> then connect=127.0.0.1 in second daemon
1180 2014-05-09 17:24:42 <zone117x> but as soon as I start first deamon it starts connecting to global testnet
1181 2014-05-09 17:24:51 <zone117x> ignoring the listen=0 it seems
1182 2014-05-09 17:25:12 <survic> that's normal behaviour
1183 2014-05-09 17:25:15 <maraoz> are bloom filters already implemented and used in bitcoind?
1184 2014-05-09 17:25:30 <survic> maraoz: yes.
1185 2014-05-09 17:25:53 <survic> bitcoind itself doesn't use them, but it can supply them on request of a peer
1186 2014-05-09 17:25:56 <sipa> -listen=0 doesn't prevent outgoing connections
1187 2014-05-09 17:26:03 <sipa> i told you to pass -connect=0.0.0.0
1188 2014-05-09 17:26:15 <sipa> (or was that someone else, sorry)
1189 2014-05-09 17:26:43 <zone117x> alright so for both local daemons just use -connect to each others ports?
1190 2014-05-09 17:26:49 <maraoz> survic: thanks, that was exactly what I needed to know
1191 2014-05-09 17:27:18 <sipa> zone117x: no
1192 2014-05-09 17:27:21 <survic> maraoz: bitcoinj/multubit uses them as does another SPV client if you want examples
1193 2014-05-09 17:27:37 <sipa> zone117x: one uses -connect=otherip, the other uses -connect=0.0.0.0 -listen=1
1194 2014-05-09 17:28:05 <zone117x> alright which one to start first, or does that not matter?
1195 2014-05-09 17:28:14 <sipa> which do you think?
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1197 2014-05-09 17:28:45 <zone117x> :/ the second one, just making sure
1198 2014-05-09 17:28:56 <sipa> yup
1199 2014-05-09 17:29:01 <sipa> not that it actually matters
1200 2014-05-09 17:29:08 <sipa> but it helps to understand what you're doing
1201 2014-05-09 17:29:55 <zone117x> haha I hope I know what I'm doing - I'm dev of NOMP https://github.com/zone117x/node-open-mining-portal
1202 2014-05-09 17:30:10 dims_ is now known as clueless
1203 2014-05-09 17:30:30 <maraoz> survic: gotcha. I'm interested in understanding how bitcoind provides the "bloom filter service" for now. I'll read the code thanks
1204 2014-05-09 17:30:31 clueless is now known as dims
1205 2014-05-09 17:30:45 <sipa> maraoz: read BIP 37
1206 2014-05-09 17:32:34 Arnavion has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1208 2014-05-09 17:33:23 alumn has joined
1209 2014-05-09 17:34:07 <alumn> hello
1210 2014-05-09 17:34:08 <alumn> in bitcoind
1211 2014-05-09 17:34:15 <alumn> is there a way to verify a transaction hex?
1212 2014-05-09 17:34:38 Arnavion3 has joined
1213 2014-05-09 17:34:42 Arnavion3 is now known as Arnavion
1214 2014-05-09 17:34:44 <alumn> for example, if a hex is incorrect and you use ‘sendrawtransaction’ it will be rejected and if it is correct it will be sent
1215 2014-05-09 17:34:54 <alumn> is there a way to check if the hex is correct without sending it?
1216 2014-05-09 17:35:22 <survic> decoderawtransaction might give errors, not sure.
1217 2014-05-09 17:35:32 <sipa> it will give decoding errors
1218 2014-05-09 17:35:37 <alumn> it will give decoding error
1219 2014-05-09 17:35:44 <alumn> but if let’s say a signature is incorrect
1220 2014-05-09 17:35:52 <alumn> or contains a double spend
1221 2014-05-09 17:35:53 <sipa> i don't think there's a full way to check validity without broadcasting
1222 2014-05-09 17:35:54 grau has joined
1223 2014-05-09 17:35:57 <alumn> I see
1224 2014-05-09 17:35:59 <sipa> maybe submit a feature request?
1225 2014-05-09 17:36:06 <alumn> where should I do that?
1226 2014-05-09 17:36:12 <alumn> on github?
1227 2014-05-09 17:36:13 chichov has joined
1228 2014-05-09 17:36:36 <sipa> github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues yes
1229 2014-05-09 17:36:36 <chichov> could anyone point out some resources explaining the bitcoin networking code?
1230 2014-05-09 17:36:56 <sipa> chichov: the only resource explaining the network _code_ is the code i'm afraid
1231 2014-05-09 17:37:10 <sipa> there may be documents that explain part of the networking protocol though
1232 2014-05-09 17:37:11 <chichov> sipa: I already feared that
1233 2014-05-09 17:37:16 davout has joined
1234 2014-05-09 17:37:33 <chichov> that might be helpful, do you have any links on that?
1235 2014-05-09 17:37:53 davout_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1236 2014-05-09 17:38:30 kermit has joined
1237 2014-05-09 17:38:53 <sipa> chichov: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41718.0
1238 2014-05-09 17:39:01 <sipa> may be outdated, though
1239 2014-05-09 17:39:02 <chichov> I also have another question - if I create a raw transaction object (CTx), how can I pass it to be sent over the network?
1240 2014-05-09 17:39:22 <sipa> sendrawtransaction ?
1241 2014-05-09 17:39:37 <chichov> sounds like what I'm looking for, I'll dig into that
1242 2014-05-09 17:40:11 <sipa> if you mean via P2P, you'd first broadcast an inv message to announce the transaction's existence, and then answer getdata requests for it using 'tx' messages with the full transaction
1243 2014-05-09 17:40:20 <sipa> ugh, that document is indeed very outdated
1244 2014-05-09 17:40:27 <sipa> it mentioned IRC discovery :)
1245 2014-05-09 17:40:58 soheil has joined
1246 2014-05-09 17:41:08 <chichov> what's an "inv" message?
1247 2014-05-09 17:41:35 <sipa> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#inv
1248 2014-05-09 17:42:51 <chichov> alright, so if I plan on sending a Tx via P2P then I first have to announce the existence of the message (via message) and then other nodes will request it for me?
1249 2014-05-09 17:42:55 ThomasV has joined
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1251 2014-05-09 17:43:23 <sipa> yes
1252 2014-05-09 17:43:33 <chichov> alright, thanks for the help
1253 2014-05-09 17:43:35 msvb-lab has joined
1254 2014-05-09 17:43:45 <chichov> I'll read the wiki + code and try to put the pieces together then
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1260 2014-05-09 17:46:16 <Einewton> chichov, I've been going throguh that stuff myself over the last few months going back throgh older clients and comparting with new code to really understand the changes... It's a journey for sure.
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1270 2014-05-09 17:50:13 <sipa> Hmm, which rules in BIP62 could be made outright illegal in a softfork?
1271 2014-05-09 17:50:22 <sipa> 2, 4, 5, 6 for sure.
1272 2014-05-09 17:50:29 austinhill has joined
1273 2014-05-09 17:50:52 <sipa> 1 requires a modification to wallets that isn't currently widely deployed, so probably not.
1274 2014-05-09 17:51:09 hearn has joined
1275 2014-05-09 17:51:51 <sipa> 3 and 7... may in theory restrict the usefulness of the script languages
1276 2014-05-09 17:52:11 viic has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3)
1277 2014-05-09 17:52:32 <sipa> so i'd say 2,4,5,6 can be made non-standard immediately, and illegal in a softfork
1278 2014-05-09 17:52:40 <gmaxwell> 1 ought to be measured, I've been prodding people to fix their signing code, it might be interesting to see how much further we have to go.
1279 2014-05-09 17:52:49 <sipa> 1,3,7 are only enforced in v3 transactions
1280 2014-05-09 17:52:52 <gmaxwell> (I don't think it could be done immediately, of course)
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1283 2014-05-09 17:53:25 <gmaxwell> before we do anything with transaction versions we need to uncorrupt the chainstates.
1284 2014-05-09 17:53:40 <sipa> i mostly want rule #2 as a softfork, so we can use non-OpenSSL signature parsing...
1285 2014-05-09 17:54:05 <gmaxwell> Ah.
1286 2014-05-09 17:54:08 <sipa> idea: make the chainstate store the *effective* transaction version
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1292 2014-05-09 17:56:30 <sipa> on the other hand, there could be a GetTxVersion on CCoins, which compares the height with flipover heights, and cramp the result
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1299 2014-05-09 18:04:54 <maaku> sipa: or do both
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1307 2014-05-09 18:14:22 <coryfields> sipa: are the bignum tests still needed just to be doubly sure that we don't deviate from any accidental legacy behavior?
1308 2014-05-09 18:14:41 fdi11inger has joined
1309 2014-05-09 18:15:10 <sipa> coryfields: well, i want some tests on scriptnum behaviour - whether they're based on bignum or not
1310 2014-05-09 18:15:17 <coryfields> i assumed the scriptnum checks would switch to using uint256.h or so for those checks
1311 2014-05-09 18:15:37 <sipa> uint256.h doesn't have signs or the getvch encoding
1312 2014-05-09 18:15:58 <sipa> so what you're left testing would really just be int64_t semantics
1313 2014-05-09 18:16:05 <coryfields> hmm, right
1314 2014-05-09 18:16:15 <sipa> i think we'll want some data driven tests
1315 2014-05-09 18:16:30 <sipa> just a bunch of numbers, their operations, and known getvch and getint results for them
1316 2014-05-09 18:17:13 <sipa> i should have considered the deprecation of bignum.h when i suggested writing bignum-based tests
1317 2014-05-09 18:17:16 <coryfields> yea, agreed
1318 2014-05-09 18:17:18 JackH has joined
1319 2014-05-09 18:17:28 <coryfields> well, it was necessary for sure
1320 2014-05-09 18:17:30 SoftwareMechanic has joined
1321 2014-05-09 18:17:34 <SoftwareMechanic> If I'm developing a client, does it make sense to have someone recognized as a bitcoin expert "validate" it?
1322 2014-05-09 18:18:13 <coryfields> i can adapt the tests to hard-code the data pretty easily, i think. There are 2 arrays in scriptnum_tests that attempt to hit the most interesting values
1323 2014-05-09 18:18:15 <sipa> so: what type of client?
1324 2014-05-09 18:18:33 <sipa> SoftwareMechanic:
1325 2014-05-09 18:18:42 <SoftwareMechanic> Either a hardware wallet or a pc-based wallet
1326 2014-05-09 18:18:53 <sipa> SPV?
1327 2014-05-09 18:18:55 <SoftwareMechanic> It would be a proprietary closed-source product
1328 2014-05-09 18:19:24 <sipa> then go ask elsewhere
1329 2014-05-09 18:19:36 <SoftwareMechanic> ok
1330 2014-05-09 18:19:39 BenderCoin has joined
1331 2014-05-09 18:20:11 <sipa> coryfields: that'd be cool
1332 2014-05-09 18:20:30 <coryfields> sipa: ok, adding to my list
1333 2014-05-09 18:20:36 <gmaxwell> SoftwareMechanic: most people will strongly recommend no one use your software. Its simply too easy to embed kleptographic features in a closed source program.
1334 2014-05-09 18:20:43 davout has joined
1335 2014-05-09 18:20:58 <SoftwareMechanic> gmaxwell: ya, that's my concern as well
1336 2014-05-09 18:21:34 davout_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1337 2014-05-09 18:21:50 <SoftwareMechanic> It's kind of a strange area.  You want to encourage people to develop new bitcoin products, but they usually want close source to maintain some business advantage
1338 2014-05-09 18:22:03 brson has joined
1339 2014-05-09 18:22:04 <MCM-Mike> into which channel is my bitcoind node connected on "irc://pelican.heliacal.net" ?
1340 2014-05-09 18:22:07 <sipa> so: charge for support or serviced features
1341 2014-05-09 18:22:09 <maaku> SoftwareMechanic: there is no reason to close-source the relevant parts of the wallet
1342 2014-05-09 18:22:14 <sipa> SoftwareMechanic: charge for support or serviced features
1343 2014-05-09 18:22:37 <sipa> MCM-Mike: irc bootstrapping was removed in bitcoin 0.6
1344 2014-05-09 18:23:00 <MCM-Mike> I know but it seems that my node is still connecting to this irc server
1345 2014-05-09 18:23:27 <sipa> what node are you running?
1346 2014-05-09 18:23:32 <sipa> what software?
1347 2014-05-09 18:24:18 msvb-lab has quit (Quit: msvb-lab)
1348 2014-05-09 18:24:23 Guest88410 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1349 2014-05-09 18:24:39 <MCM-Mike> sorry ma bad, was an old netstat output I was looking at
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1351 2014-05-09 18:25:49 <SoftwareMechanic> Say the essential parts of the software for a hardware wallet was to be open sourced, seems like it would make sense to have it reviewed before releasing it.
1352 2014-05-09 18:27:06 <SoftwareMechanic> What's the best route to go to get it reviewed?
1353 2014-05-09 18:27:13 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1354 2014-05-09 18:28:22 <sipa> open source it
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1356 2014-05-09 18:30:43 davout_ has joined
1357 2014-05-09 18:31:40 <SoftwareMechanic> I don't know, I'd like to have it at least vetted by and second person first.
1358 2014-05-09 18:31:54 davout has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1359 2014-05-09 18:31:57 <SoftwareMechanic> I'm accustomed to Independent verification for critical systems
1360 2014-05-09 18:32:03 <SoftwareMechanic> Maybe I'm missing something
1361 2014-05-09 18:32:35 <SoftwareMechanic> Could also be I haven't had enough coffee today yet
1362 2014-05-09 18:32:46 <sipa> well, if you find someone who's willing to review it, go ahead
1363 2014-05-09 18:32:57 <midnightmagic> SoftwareMechanic: If nobody is using it, then there is no risk of anything being lost. Open source it, and either the vetting happens (because of interest or you paid someone), or it doesn't, because nobody likes the product and thinks it's a bad idea.
1364 2014-05-09 18:33:01 <sipa> but i doubt you'll find anyone here interested in reviewing things that aren't open source
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1375 2014-05-09 18:40:31 <SoftwareMechanic> So here's the dilemma, say you have a Trezor like device and you want to sell N units.  Obviously you want the firmware well reviewed and vetted before you sell those units.  Open sourcing it is a step on that path, but doesn't get you all the way there.
1376 2014-05-09 18:41:14 <SoftwareMechanic> Obviously you start small, but you want to make sure you have a product before you start cranking out units.  Trezor didn't release their firmware on day 1.  It took them awhile.
1377 2014-05-09 18:41:29 <SoftwareMechanic> I'm presuming they had folks look at it.
1378 2014-05-09 18:42:21 <gmaxwell> Releasing the firmware for something like that isn't really sufficient. Instead something like the trezor can be designed so that it has no side channel from which to screw you.
1379 2014-05-09 18:42:27 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
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1383 2014-05-09 18:43:34 <SoftwareMechanic> I don't think they've open sourced their schematics and layout.
1384 2014-05-09 18:44:45 <SoftwareMechanic> How would you make a determination that there is no side channel?  I suppose you could pop it open and inspect it, download the flash and verify the dissassembly.
1385 2014-05-09 18:46:06 llllllllll has joined
1386 2014-05-09 18:46:28 <gmaxwell> SoftwareMechanic: because you can use a signature process which is completely determinstic, so there is no place for the signer to add extra data. If there were a sidechannel it would have to be very infrequent to have a chance of not being easily detectable.
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1390 2014-05-09 18:47:16 <survic> ideally the Trezor would be 100% deterministic and just supply dice and a lookup table
1391 2014-05-09 18:47:31 <survic> no RNG, no messing around
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1393 2014-05-09 18:54:07 robonerd has joined
1394 2014-05-09 18:54:32 <robonerd> is the correct case for mentioning bitcoin in documentation "Bitcoin" or "bitcoin"
1395 2014-05-09 18:55:16 <sipa> Bitcoin the system, bitcoin the currency.
1396 2014-05-09 18:55:30 <robonerd> what's the difference please?
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1399 2014-05-09 18:57:54 <SoftwareMechanic> gmaxwell: ya, that is true.  I was thinking you meant side channel as providing a rogue bootloader or something.
1400 2014-05-09 18:59:28 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1401 2014-05-09 19:00:29 <sipa> robonerd:
1402 2014-05-09 19:00:36 rlifchitz has quit (Quit: "I never worry about action, but only about inaction" (W. Churchill))
1403 2014-05-09 19:00:41 <sipa> * I downloaded the Bitcoin reference client.
1404 2014-05-09 19:00:48 <sipa> * This system uses the Bitcoin protocol.
1405 2014-05-09 19:00:58 <sipa> * The Bitcoin network is growing every day.
1406 2014-05-09 19:01:04 <sipa> * I paid him 0.5 bitcoin.
1407 2014-05-09 19:01:20 <SoftwareMechanic> gmaxwell:  Why do you say that releasing the software/firmware would not be sufficient?
1408 2014-05-09 19:01:22 <robonerd> why is there a difference?
1409 2014-05-09 19:01:33 <dabura667> Quick question for anyone who can answer, can you "break off" branches of an HD BIP 32 wallet seed? ie store master seed in safe, store master private key of ONLY branch 1 on one device, 2 on another device, and master public of ONLY branch 1 on this, 2 on that... etc.?
1410 2014-05-09 19:01:35 <sipa> robonerd: because we don't capitalize "dollar" either
1411 2014-05-09 19:01:49 <SoftwareMechanic> bitcoin is a currency, Bitcoin is a proper noun referring to the system and protocol
1412 2014-05-09 19:02:05 <survic> SoftwareMechanic: how do you know your device is running it?
1413 2014-05-09 19:02:24 <sipa> I'm unsure about "the Bitcoin economy is growing" or "the bitcoin economy is growing"
1414 2014-05-09 19:02:36 <SoftwareMechanic> You have a bootloader running in a locked flash section that reports it's checksum at boot.
1415 2014-05-09 19:02:52 <SoftwareMechanic> It's about as good as you can get without flashing the device yourself with a JTAG
1416 2014-05-09 19:02:52 <sipa> dabura667: i don't understand the question
1417 2014-05-09 19:03:20 <survic> SoftwareMechanic: that's just it. how do you know if the bootloader is genuine? difficult.
1418 2014-05-09 19:03:40 <SoftwareMechanic> It is.  it's a fundamental issue with hardware wallets I think
1419 2014-05-09 19:04:37 <survic> they're ultimately trust based
1420 2014-05-09 19:04:41 <dabura667> what I mean is. The benefit of HD wallets is being able to restore everything from one seed, your master private key, then derive branches from it.
1421 2014-05-09 19:04:49 <SoftwareMechanic> There is always an element of trust of the factory.  Same way you trust that your hard drive vendor isn't stealing your keys.
1422 2014-05-09 19:04:52 <sipa> dabura667: if you only plan to use keys from a particular subtree/branch, you only need the private root of that subtree.
1423 2014-05-09 19:05:03 <dabura667> The advantage to P2SH multisig is being able to keep private keys separately safe.
1424 2014-05-09 19:05:12 <dabura667> ok
1425 2014-05-09 19:05:19 <dabura667> so it's possible then, thank you.
1426 2014-05-09 19:05:35 <gmaxwell> SoftwareMechanic: I pointed out above that that risk can be substantially elimianted by making the behavior determinstic, so that the device has no side channel.
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1429 2014-05-09 19:07:08 <dabura667> sipa: my idea was Branch 1, 2, and 3 being used to create sequential 2 of 3 P2SH addresses. Then storing the master private key in a safe place, but on my devices only keep the ability to generate their "1 / 3" of the privkeys.
1430 2014-05-09 19:07:15 <dabura667> Thanks for the answer.
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1432 2014-05-09 19:07:20 <survic> gmaxwell: still not perfect though, it could randomly sign with a k that's known to the author only. just as dangerous because I doubt people would be verifying every single signature.
1433 2014-05-09 19:07:30 <sipa> dabura667: i would use completely separate trees
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1435 2014-05-09 19:08:12 <survic> even if one in every 2048 signatures was backdoored, it would be very hard to detect but very nasty
1436 2014-05-09 19:08:12 LjL-Laplet has joined
1437 2014-05-09 19:08:39 <dabura667> hmmmmm
1438 2014-05-09 19:09:02 mpmcswee_ has joined
1439 2014-05-09 19:09:18 <dabura667> so using separate trees obfuscates that type of weakness more than using the same tree would?
1440 2014-05-09 19:09:39 <dabura667> oh nvm
1441 2014-05-09 19:09:48 <dabura667> different person was talking, I understand
1442 2014-05-09 19:09:53 rlifchitz has joined
1443 2014-05-09 19:10:04 <dabura667> sipa: thanks for your opinion / help
1444 2014-05-09 19:10:13 dabura667 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1446 2014-05-09 19:12:25 <gmaxwell> survic: Yes, but you have to do that very rarely for it to be unlikely to be caught. Better still can be done: I pushed for devices like trezor to use multisignature, but they said they didn't have time. (which sounded a lot more credible a year ago…)
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1448 2014-05-09 19:13:04 <SoftwareMechanic> yes, multisig is ideal
1449 2014-05-09 19:13:18 <SoftwareMechanic> Kind of what I'm working on actually
1450 2014-05-09 19:13:23 <gmaxwell> Blindsigning can be also used to destroy a covert channel, but then having the device approve what its signing is hard.
1451 2014-05-09 19:13:45 <SoftwareMechanic> it gets around any backdoor issues with the hardware wallet.
1452 2014-05-09 19:14:52 <SoftwareMechanic> It looked like there was some P2SH code in the Trezor, so I don't think they are far off
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1458 2014-05-09 19:17:14 <SoftwareMechanic> The problem I run into is that all of the reference implementations are implemented in either c++ with alot of dependencies that can't be cross compiled, or something like python, which is not embeddable in small devices.
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1461 2014-05-09 19:19:41 <gmaxwell> Funny that you come in talking about wanting to create a closed commercal product and now you're complaining that people doing free work for you through their open source efforts haven't done precisely the work you need...
1462 2014-05-09 19:19:45 <gmaxwell> :P
1463 2014-05-09 19:20:17 <SoftwareMechanic> I know it
1464 2014-05-09 19:21:12 <SoftwareMechanic> I'm actually a huge open source advocate, so doing closed work like this is new for me.
1465 2014-05-09 19:21:19 <gmaxwell> (and fwiw, while the software in bitcoin core isn't sutable for a microcontroller, it's all cross compilable; thats how we do releases for non-linux platforms)
1466 2014-05-09 19:21:25 <SoftwareMechanic> But I still reserve the right to bitch
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1468 2014-05-09 19:22:56 <SoftwareMechanic> the core code itself is pretty embeddable, it's just the dependencies that are trouble.  Things like boost are just a pita on small micros.
1469 2014-05-09 19:23:31 <sipa> it's also completely unusable
1470 2014-05-09 19:23:52 <sipa> you're not going to run a node on a trezor-like device; just a signing module and maybe a wallet
1471 2014-05-09 19:23:52 <SoftwareMechanic> I thought that was just me not understanding it
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1473 2014-05-09 19:23:58 <sipa> much less a full node
1474 2014-05-09 19:24:20 <sipa> (which needs gigabytes of storage and network volume, and 100s of MB of RAM)
1475 2014-05-09 19:24:23 <SoftwareMechanic> I was originally hoping to reuse the bitcoind wallet.  I abandoned that effort early.
1476 2014-05-09 19:24:37 <sipa> that's the right decision imho :)
1477 2014-05-09 19:24:52 <SoftwareMechanic> :)
1478 2014-05-09 19:25:06 <sipa> (regardless of its programming language or dependencies - it's just too integrated with the bitcoin core node)
1479 2014-05-09 19:25:41 <SoftwareMechanic> I think I'd like to work on a hardware wallet library, which takes the test harness structure and protocol from trezor, and implements a generic transaction processing component
1480 2014-05-09 19:25:58 <sipa> wallets don't process transactions
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1482 2014-05-09 19:26:23 <sipa> well, apart from computing the effect on their internal state
1483 2014-05-09 19:26:24 <SoftwareMechanic> I don't think we'll have alot of hardware wallets unless there is a general wallet interface clients can leverage to support them.  No one wants to implement a new interface for every wallet
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1485 2014-05-09 19:26:53 <sipa> the P2P protocol works pretty well if you're willing to implement an SPV node
1486 2014-05-09 19:27:11 <sipa> if you don't, you'll always rely on some trusted external service or device to supply transaction information
1487 2014-05-09 19:27:16 <SoftwareMechanic> I'm not familiar with SPV.  I'll check it out.
1488 2014-05-09 19:27:52 <SoftwareMechanic> Ya, right now hardware wallets trust the transactions coming from the client.
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1492 2014-05-09 19:28:30 <posita1> Special Purpose Vehicle? <http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/spv.asp> ;-)
1493 2014-05-09 19:29:00 <sipa> simplified payment verification, section 8 of the bitcoin whitepaper
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1575 2014-05-09 21:09:04 <flound1129> is it ok to decrease the default getblocks limit?
1576 2014-05-09 21:10:34 <Luke-Jr> might break things
1577 2014-05-09 21:11:03 <sipa> why do you want to decrease it?
1578 2014-05-09 21:11:23 <flound1129> because I'm getting spammed with requests
1579 2014-05-09 21:11:27 <flound1129> same blocks over and over again
1580 2014-05-09 21:11:32 <flound1129> it fills the logs and cpu spikes
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1582 2014-05-09 21:11:40 <flound1129> it's some kind of denial of service
1583 2014-05-09 21:12:01 <sipa> i'd be surprised if decreasing the getblocks limit helped for that
1584 2014-05-09 21:12:13 <sipa> you'll just slow peers a bit down as they'll need more roundtrips
1585 2014-05-09 21:12:26 <sipa> if you don't want to serve block data, use -nolisten
1586 2014-05-09 21:12:53 <Luke-Jr> hm
1587 2014-05-09 21:12:56 <flound1129> well I can't exactly use -nolisten on mining nodes
1588 2014-05-09 21:13:02 <sipa> of course you can
1589 2014-05-09 21:13:06 <flound1129> I want to serve block data, I just don't want to be dos'd
1590 2014-05-09 21:13:09 <gmaxwell> certantly you can. 0_o
1591 2014-05-09 21:13:19 <sipa> i'd even advise you to
1592 2014-05-09 21:13:27 <flound1129> doesn't nolisten turn off the p2p port?
1593 2014-05-09 21:13:29 <gmaxwell> flound1129: you don't expose a mining node directly to the public internet! are you crazy?!
1594 2014-05-09 21:13:32 <Luke-Jr> I wonder if deleting blk*.dat is safe with -nolisten, assuming no hostile outgoing peers
1595 2014-05-09 21:13:39 <sipa> no, it means it just won't accept incoming connections
1596 2014-05-09 21:13:43 <sipa> you'll still make outgoing ones
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1598 2014-05-09 21:14:03 <flound1129> gmaxwell:  why not?  I would think a mining node would need the best possible connectivity
1599 2014-05-09 21:14:17 <sipa> so use a separate node that is connected to the internet, and -addnode it
1600 2014-05-09 21:14:19 <Luke-Jr> flound1129: that isn't had by accepting arbitrary incoming connections
1601 2014-05-09 21:14:39 andjo327 has joined
1602 2014-05-09 21:14:40 <Luke-Jr> flound1129: BlueMatt runs a mining node relay network, you want to addnode that
1603 2014-05-09 21:14:42 <gmaxwell> Best possible doesn't mean inviting anyone who wants to dos attack you. All your links from a mining node should be to trusted peers, some you're running yourself, and some of those can connect to the whole network.
1604 2014-05-09 21:14:43 <flound1129> yeah but it'll pretty much connect to any node it discovers anyway?
1605 2014-05-09 21:14:54 <sipa> no, just 8
1606 2014-05-09 21:14:56 <flound1129> so what's the difference really?
1607 2014-05-09 21:14:58 <survic> Luke-Jr: hostile? there's nothing stopping you from connecting back to you and asking you to be a syncnode as far as I am aware
1608 2014-05-09 21:15:00 <sipa> plus the ones you addnode
1609 2014-05-09 21:15:08 <Luke-Jr> flound1129: actually, use -connect will stop automatic connections
1610 2014-05-09 21:15:16 <Luke-Jr> then you can -connect=one-peer-you-trust
1611 2014-05-09 21:15:27 <sipa> flound1129: because peers don't advertize themselves until they have caught up
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1613 2014-05-09 21:15:37 <Luke-Jr> survic: nolisten = you can't connect to me
1614 2014-05-09 21:15:42 <sipa> flound1129: if you connect to them, they're unlikely to need a ton of blocks from you
1615 2014-05-09 21:15:44 <flound1129> sipa: you're assuming non-evil peers
1616 2014-05-09 21:15:52 <survic> Luke-Jr: sipa just answered my question
1617 2014-05-09 21:16:10 <sipa> flound1129: the chance that peers _you_ connect to are evil is significantly lower than the ones that directly connect to you
1618 2014-05-09 21:16:14 <gmaxwell> flound1129: there are a great many ways peers can dos attack you, your inventory size basically has nothing to do with them being malicious or not.
1619 2014-05-09 21:16:17 <Luke-Jr> survic: sync node is afaik always an outgoing connection
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1623 2014-05-09 21:16:58 <survic> Luke-Jr: plus new peers don't advertise, so it's all fairly moot. probably not ideal to even suggest that users delete their blocks though. just asking for disaster.
1624 2014-05-09 21:17:07 grau has joined
1625 2014-05-09 21:17:15 <Luke-Jr> survic: yeah, I was just pondering
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1627 2014-05-09 21:17:33 <Luke-Jr> some idiot otu there *is* actually recommending people do that so there are more "full nodes"
1628 2014-05-09 21:17:36 <roybadami> Before I submit a pull request, just wanted to know whether this has already been discussed and rejected: I find long strings of decimals pretty unreadable (and if using uBTC it's even harder to read).  Any good reason not to use thousands separators?  I'd suggest the only sensible option is SI-style (thin spaces as separators, both to the left and to the right of the decimal point)
1629 2014-05-09 21:17:38 <flound1129> so it's not good to run with maxconnections=200 then?
1630 2014-05-09 21:17:42 <Luke-Jr> flound1129: no
1631 2014-05-09 21:17:51 <survic> Luke-Jr: ha, you saw me fighting with him then?
1632 2014-05-09 21:17:56 <flound1129> won't my stale rate increase if I use a lower # of connections?
1633 2014-05-09 21:18:02 <sipa> flound1129: no
1634 2014-05-09 21:18:23 <Luke-Jr> roybadami: BTC uses commas to the left of the decimal point already; I see no reason not to put spaces on the right though
1635 2014-05-09 21:18:24 <flound1129> block stale I mean
1636 2014-05-09 21:18:26 <flound1129> not stale shares
1637 2014-05-09 21:18:33 <sipa> flound1129: quality of peers is much more important than quantity
1638 2014-05-09 21:18:45 <Luke-Jr> roybadami: how is uBTC hard to read? you always get commas then
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1640 2014-05-09 21:19:04 <Luke-Jr> flound1129: quantity of peers just means slower block broadcast
1641 2014-05-09 21:19:12 <roybadami> Luke-Jr: erm, has that changed recent?  Pretty sure in 0.9.1 it doesn't
1642 2014-05-09 21:19:20 <gmaxwell> 0_o
1643 2014-05-09 21:19:26 <gmaxwell> roybadami: it's always been like that.
1644 2014-05-09 21:19:27 <Luke-Jr> roybadami: if it has, it's a regression
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1647 2014-05-09 21:19:39 <roybadami> Oh, OK.....
1648 2014-05-09 21:19:39 <flound1129> ok thanks for the advice
1649 2014-05-09 21:19:43 <Luke-Jr> I do seem to recall wumpus considering merging such a braindead change though :<
1650 2014-05-09 21:19:45 <roybadami> Let me go check again
1651 2014-05-09 21:19:50 <Luke-Jr> not sure if it went in
1652 2014-05-09 21:20:05 <roybadami> Remeber, some countries use dot as thousands separator, and comma as a decial point
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1654 2014-05-09 21:20:34 <Luke-Jr> roybadami: remember, BTC doesn't follow those rules ;)
1655 2014-05-09 21:20:44 <roybadami> Really, using anything other than thin space as thousands separator is *very* dangerous, becuase it can be mistaken for decial point/decimal comma (which is exactly why SI invented the thin space rule)
1656 2014-05-09 21:20:46 <sipa> it should just use whatever your locale-specific number currency formatting is
1657 2014-05-09 21:20:48 <Luke-Jr> in order to be international, it has always used a comma thousands-separator internationally
1658 2014-05-09 21:20:55 <Luke-Jr> sipa: no
1659 2014-05-09 21:21:10 <sipa> i'd expect that that is what it does?
1660 2014-05-09 21:21:21 archrs has quit (Quit: peace)
1661 2014-05-09 21:21:27 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i know you disagree with that, but the world is not a nice uniform place
1662 2014-05-09 21:21:37 <Luke-Jr> sipa: Bitcoin has always used comma-thousands period-fractions format regardless of locale.
1663 2014-05-09 21:21:44 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1664 2014-05-09 21:21:46 <survic> Luke-Jr: from the dude telling people to delete all their blocks, I thought this was hilarious http://reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2465wj/request_to_immediately_kick_gmaxwell_from_the/
1665 2014-05-09 21:21:47 archrs has joined
1666 2014-05-09 21:21:50 <Luke-Jr> unless wumpus changed that recently (which would be worse)
1667 2014-05-09 21:22:01 <Luke-Jr> survic: yes, seen it
1668 2014-05-09 21:22:14 * roybadami fires up stock 0.9.1 again
1669 2014-05-09 21:22:38 <survic> Luke-Jr: best thing I've seen on reddit in a long time.
1670 2014-05-09 21:22:47 <roybadami> 442395.27 μBTC
1671 2014-05-09 21:22:52 <roybadami> no commas
1672 2014-05-09 21:23:02 <roybadami> see BitcoinUnits::format
1673 2014-05-09 21:23:04 <Luke-Jr> survic: I think that's 3 of us who have been requested-fired by trolls now
1674 2014-05-09 21:23:06 gyom has joined
1675 2014-05-09 21:23:08 <roybadami>     // Note: not using straight sprintf here because we do NOT want
1676 2014-05-09 21:23:08 <roybadami>     // localized number formatting.
1677 2014-05-09 21:23:28 <sipa> in bitcoind sure
1678 2014-05-09 21:23:40 <sipa> but i'd expect Qt to use something else
1679 2014-05-09 21:23:41 <sipa> anyway
1680 2014-05-09 21:23:48 * sipa doesn't care enough about GUIs
1681 2014-05-09 21:23:53 <roybadami> erm, that was from qt/bitcoinunits.cpp
1682 2014-05-09 21:23:56 <survic> Luke-Jr: ridiculous arguments in a bubble I'm sure
1683 2014-05-09 21:23:58 <sipa> orly
1684 2014-05-09 21:24:02 <sipa> ok, never mind then :)
1685 2014-05-09 21:24:15 <posita> If you want 100% approval, don't make any decisions.
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1687 2014-05-09 21:24:27 <roybadami> I'm going to submit a pull request - I think thin space is clearly better than nothing (and IMHO thin space is optimal)
1688 2014-05-09 21:24:41 <posita> (Re: firing requests.)
1689 2014-05-09 21:24:47 <roybadami> People can argue in the pull request
1690 2014-05-09 21:24:49 <Luke-Jr> roybadami: I have no objection
1691 2014-05-09 21:25:03 <Luke-Jr> certainyl seems like a good compromise to the locale issues
1692 2014-05-09 21:25:23 <Luke-Jr> ironically, when I went to look at the bitcoinunits code, I remembered mine is 100% rewritten :P
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1694 2014-05-09 21:26:06 <roybadami> But I've disabled the thousands seperator for cut and paste (because otherwise it will drive me mad not being able to past into a spreadsheet as a number :)
1695 2014-05-09 21:26:23 <roybadami> In fact, this was the only hard bit (given before yesterday I knew no Qt :)
1696 2014-05-09 21:27:05 <Luke-Jr> sounds like you've thought it through well :P
1697 2014-05-09 21:28:09 <roybadami> Actually, I suppose I should check trunk first :)  Was hacking against 0.9.1
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1702 2014-05-09 21:31:33 * roybadami doesn't have enough coins to see thousands separators with BTC units, and never played with the units settings before last week - which is why I never saw the comma :)
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1704 2014-05-09 21:32:21 * sipa suggests regtest
1705 2014-05-09 21:32:30 <roybadami> regtest?
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1708 2014-05-09 21:33:25 <sipa> run with -regtest
1709 2014-05-09 21:33:32 <sipa> it's a super testnet, essentially
1710 2014-05-09 21:34:02 <sipa> and do setgenerate true 1000
1711 2014-05-09 21:34:09 <sipa> to mine 1000 blocks in it :p
1712 2014-05-09 21:34:29 <roybadami> I admit I've been lazy and am just testing on my real wallet.
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1714 2014-05-09 21:35:13 <roybadami> Seems safe enough given I'm only messing with GUI code (and have wallet backups, and don't keep much in Core anyway - but have a nice long transaction history)
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1716 2014-05-09 21:35:57 <roybadami> Not really looked at what's needed to set up a proper test environment yet
1717 2014-05-09 21:36:47 <roybadami> If someone wants to sent me 1000 real BTC I'll test and then send them right back :)
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1719 2014-05-09 21:37:53 <Luke-Jr> or just do what sipa said
1720 2014-05-09 21:39:25 <roybadami> Yeah, guess I'll have to.... looking at source and changelog and can't for the life of me see how it ever put commas in
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1723 2014-05-09 21:41:32 <Luke-Jr> it's quite possible the last time it did was wxBitcoin and I just never noticed <.<
1724 2014-05-09 21:41:52 <Luke-Jr> but probably irrelevant anyway
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1727 2014-05-09 21:43:29 <maaku> except for east asian languages which expects groupings of 4 :P
1728 2014-05-09 21:43:35 <maaku> but you can't please everybody
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1730 2014-05-09 21:47:00 <roybadami> maaku: or india, which uses a group of three followed by groupings of 2, e.g. 1 crore (10 million) is written 1,00,00,000
1731 2014-05-09 21:48:01 <Luke-Jr> maaku: really? tonal uses groupings of 4
1732 2014-05-09 21:48:06 <sipa> and after that? 1,000,00,00,000 or 10,00,00,00,000 ?
1733 2014-05-09 21:49:27 <roybadami> the latter
1734 2014-05-09 21:49:52 <roybadami> one lakh is 10^5 written 1,00,000
1735 2014-05-09 21:50:03 <roybadami> one crore is 10^7 writeen 1,00,00,000
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1737 2014-05-09 21:50:24 <roybadami> but aiui if you use that system you then just keep extending in groups of two
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1739 2014-05-09 21:51:43 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i'd have expected groupings of 16 (well, "10") !
1740 2014-05-09 21:51:59 <maaku> chinese (and japanese, korean, ...) uses groups of 10,000 in spoken language
1741 2014-05-09 21:52:11 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it's radix 4*4 and grouped in 4s
1742 2014-05-09 21:52:13 <Luke-Jr> :P
1743 2014-05-09 21:52:38 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1746 2014-05-09 21:53:21 <maaku> just like we have words for thousand, million, billion, they have wan (1,0000) yi (1,0000,0000), etc.
1747 2014-05-09 21:53:27 saulimus has joined
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1749 2014-05-09 21:54:18 <maaku> so reading numbers when using 3-digit grouping is annoying as they often stop and have to count digits
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1752 2014-05-09 21:55:42 <maaku> the only universal in internationalization/localization is that there are no universals :P
1753 2014-05-09 21:56:10 <roybadami> right... and in india they have words for 10^5 (lakh) and 10^7 (crore).  I dont' speak any indian languages but lakh and crore are used by indians even when speaking English
1754 2014-05-09 21:56:29 <sipa> maaku: it's called localization for a reason, not universalization!
1755 2014-05-09 21:56:32 <roybadami> (I assume they're actually hindi words but not sure)
1756 2014-05-09 21:57:11 <survic> can Bitcoin Core be translated into Esperanto? then we wouldn't need to do any localization at all
1757 2014-05-09 21:57:19 <sipa> lol :)
1758 2014-05-09 21:57:20 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1761 2014-05-09 21:57:42 <roybadami> And if you want to be depressed about how many possibilities there are for different combinations of thousands separators and decimal separators, go read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_mark
1762 2014-05-09 21:57:49 <sipa> survic: do your worst: https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/bitcoin/
1763 2014-05-09 21:57:55 kanzure has joined
1764 2014-05-09 21:58:10 <roybadami> You'll rapidly realise that SI had no choice but to invet a new (thin space) system to avoid ambiguity
1765 2014-05-09 21:58:12 <survic> sipa: woak, we already have it
1766 2014-05-09 21:58:13 <sipa> oh, there's an 85% esperanto transaction already
1767 2014-05-09 21:58:27 <survic> sipa: that's insane
1768 2014-05-09 21:59:56 OneFixt has joined
1769 2014-05-09 21:59:59 <survic> Bitmona Kerno!
1770 2014-05-09 22:00:56 coingenuity has joined
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1775 2014-05-09 22:02:49 <maaku> Lojban is missing :(
1776 2014-05-09 22:03:18 <sipa> Do we have Quenya and Klingon?
1777 2014-05-09 22:03:20 kermit has joined
1778 2014-05-09 22:03:26 <roybadami> maaku: What's wrong with good old-fashioned LOGLAN :)
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1784 2014-05-09 22:05:29 <roybadami> Thanks all for regtest suggestion
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1786 2014-05-09 22:06:06 <survic> Welsh would be nice, though you'd have to double the size of the interface to fit all the "y"s in
1787 2014-05-09 22:06:35 <roybadami> Been very impressed by how easy it's been to set up build and test environments (main thing that's always put me off dabbling was an assumption each would take days -- rather than hours and minutes respectively)
1788 2014-05-09 22:07:40 MaxSan has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1789 2014-05-09 22:07:53 <roybadami> (Where "hours" equals "a couple of hours to get the prereqa installed and be building a working program")
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1813 2014-05-09 22:30:32 <roybadami> survic: you know the story as to why ISO Latin 1 can't do Welsh (lacks w circumflex)?  ISO asked each member country to submit the characters needed to write their national languages, and the British government just submitted the (unaccented) letters a to z
1814 2014-05-09 22:31:21 <survic> roybadami: I didn't know the story. it's not like welsh needs anything else to kill it off anyway, nobody speaks it even today :\
1815 2014-05-09 22:33:00 phish has joined
1816 2014-05-09 22:33:08 <gmaxwell> I mostly only knew welsh still existed when Alan Cox's blog became welsh.
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1820 2014-05-09 22:34:04 <gwillen> gmaxwell: when I tell people my name is 'gwillen', sometimes they ask if it's welsh
1821 2014-05-09 22:34:05 bbrian has joined
1822 2014-05-09 22:34:09 <gwillen> gmaxwell: this has happened maybe three times
1823 2014-05-09 22:35:18 <harveybc> Hello, I have a very large improvement in the process of bitcoin minning:
1824 2014-05-09 22:35:20 <harveybc> http://forum.ethereum.org/discussion/882/congratulations-humanity-you-have-reached-singularity#latest
1825 2014-05-09 22:35:27 <survic> gwillen: it could work as welsh. needs more "y"s though.
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1827 2014-05-09 22:35:46 <harveybc> The objective of the project is use the CPU power Wasted during minning in Bitcoin to a utilizable, shareable, and storable resource called Trained Neural Network also called a IA expert that a low CPU machine like a Cell phone or a Raspberry Pi can use, havin access to advanced IA without having a GPU or a cluster to do the training.
1828 2014-05-09 22:35:51 cyphase has joined
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1830 2014-05-09 22:36:38 <survic> harveybc: unless it produced work that is easily scalable to different arbitrary difficulties and is able to be verified in a simple operation, that's not a PoW.
1831 2014-05-09 22:36:48 <harveybc> Yes)
1832 2014-05-09 22:36:51 <harveybc> it is
1833 2014-05-09 22:36:57 <gwillen> survic: yeah, when people ask that I think they are assuming it's like gwyllyn
1834 2014-05-09 22:37:01 <harveybc> }is the Kolmogorov complexyty
1835 2014-05-09 22:37:07 <survic> (different arbitrary difficulties was a horrible choice of words)
1836 2014-05-09 22:37:18 <harveybc> that is what makes the complexyty of training variable
1837 2014-05-09 22:37:26 <buZz> harveybc: cool idea
1838 2014-05-09 22:37:31 <harveybc> and usable in bitcoin
1839 2014-05-09 22:37:48 <survic> gwillen: yygwyllyyyn sounds more Welsh :P
1840 2014-05-09 22:38:52 <harveybc> The minning process is described in the forum, please if you think yopu can help, write to harveybc@ingeni-us.com
1841 2014-05-09 22:39:11 <harveybc> my homepage is outdated, so you will not find nothing there
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1843 2014-05-09 22:39:45 <harveybc> i only have a distributed NEAT (Neuroevolution of Augmenting topologies) implementacion in C some years ago
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1847 2014-05-09 22:41:07 <harveybc> and i amo rewritting it in C++ using the AI framework Encog
1848 2014-05-09 22:41:41 <harveybc> but cant use etherum, so i think a fork of some altcoin is required
1849 2014-05-09 22:42:10 roconnor has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1850 2014-05-09 22:42:13 <sipa> which by definition means an altcoin on itself :)
1851 2014-05-09 22:42:36 <harveybc> i mean anything with a proof of work
1852 2014-05-09 22:42:39 <Luke-Jr> harveybc: this isn't #altcoins
1853 2014-05-09 22:42:41 <harveybc> concept
1854 2014-05-09 22:42:47 <harveybc> sorry
1855 2014-05-09 22:43:03 <harveybc> it is a general concept
1856 2014-05-09 22:43:09 <harveybc> not for a single coin
1857 2014-05-09 22:43:14 <Luke-Jr> harveybc: also, bitcoin mining is not wasted
1858 2014-05-09 22:43:22 <buZz> this channel is not tolerant for general concepts
1859 2014-05-09 22:43:43 <Luke-Jr> s/tolerant//
1860 2014-05-09 22:43:52 <harveybc> You cannot use the processing power used during minning to anything useful apart from the coin forge itself
1861 2014-05-09 22:44:05 <buZz> s/for general concepts//
1862 2014-05-09 22:44:12 <Luke-Jr> harveybc: it can and is.
1863 2014-05-09 22:44:21 <sipa> not this discussion again please
1864 2014-05-09 22:44:28 <Luke-Jr> ^
1865 2014-05-09 22:44:33 <sipa> bitcoin won't change its PoW unless there is a very good reason
1866 2014-05-09 22:44:34 <harveybc> If you use IA, for minning, you got the trained neural networks that are shareable, storable and usable
1867 2014-05-09 22:44:36 <Luke-Jr> mining usefulness is bitcoin 101, not for here either
1868 2014-05-09 22:44:42 <sipa> i'm eager to hear about the result of your experiment, though
1869 2014-05-09 22:44:43 <harveybc> apart from  forging the coin
1870 2014-05-09 22:44:43 hmsimha has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1871 2014-05-09 22:44:43 <sipa> but not here
1872 2014-05-09 22:45:12 <Luke-Jr> harveybc: I have serious doubts that you can make a PoW replacement, considering you don't even understand how PoW is currently used. Whether you can or cannot, it is off-topic here.
1873 2014-05-09 22:45:32 <harveybc> Solve your doubts looking at:
1874 2014-05-09 22:45:38 <harveybc> http://forum.ethereum.org/categories/projects
1875 2014-05-09 22:45:42 <Apocalyptic> ...
1876 2014-05-09 22:45:58 <Luke-Jr> harveybc: I think you want to be in #ethereum
1877 2014-05-09 22:46:02 <Apocalyptic> which part of off-topic don't you understand ?
1878 2014-05-09 22:46:03 <harveybc> no}
1879 2014-05-09 22:46:15 <harveybc> actually i cannopt use ethereum for this,
1880 2014-05-09 22:46:26 <harveybc> this is why i came here
1881 2014-05-09 22:46:29 <Luke-Jr> nor bitcoin
1882 2014-05-09 22:46:33 <Luke-Jr> which is what this channel is for
1883 2014-05-09 22:46:36 <harveybc> anyway. think and read about it
1884 2014-05-09 22:46:36 spinza has joined
1885 2014-05-09 22:46:41 <harveybc> am leaving
1886 2014-05-09 22:46:42 <harveybc> bye
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1896 2014-05-09 22:56:15 <roybadami> Got I hate git/github.... I know I've done this before, but....
1897 2014-05-09 22:56:54 <roybadami> First step in https://help.github.com/articles/creating-a-pull-request is "Click Compare and Review" and the words "compare and review" don't appear anywhere that I can see to click on
1898 2014-05-09 22:57:30 <arubi> it has a small picture right tehre
1899 2014-05-09 22:57:35 <arubi> there*
1900 2014-05-09 22:57:51 <arubi> green arrows, right next to the branch drop down
1901 2014-05-09 22:57:53 <roybadami> I god it's a completely incomprehensible icon
1902 2014-05-09 22:58:00 <arubi> true
1903 2014-05-09 22:58:10 <roybadami> which means seaching in the page for "compate and review" fails
1904 2014-05-09 22:58:23 <arubi> search the page source :P
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1906 2014-05-09 22:59:31 <roybadami> I'm really not a fan of icons... my brain understands words not weird things designers come up with (this isn't sepcific to git/github - it applies to everthing)
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1908 2014-05-09 22:59:44 <roybadami> arubi: anyway - thanks!
1909 2014-05-09 22:59:58 <arubi> I'm with you on this, no problem!
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1931 2014-05-09 23:27:29 <roybadami> Ok, my first bitcon pull request, please be gentle with me :)
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1933 2014-05-09 23:29:13 <gmaxwell> NAK, didn't pay required bribes
1934 2014-05-09 23:29:44 <roybadami> I have lots of testnet coins now - how much is the bribe?
1935 2014-05-09 23:30:21 <roybadami> Oh... no... I guess regtest coins aren't real testnet coins.... sorry, I have nothing of value
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1941 2014-05-09 23:35:34 <gmaxwell> hm. upgraded the node on my laptop to master (last pull a few days ago) and "Warning: error reading wallet.dat! All keys read correctly, but transaction data or address book entries might be missing or incorrect."
1942 2014-05-09 23:36:19 <gmaxwell> 2014-05-09 23:31:55 ERROR: CBasicKeyStore::AddCScript() : redeemScripts > 520 bytes are invalid
1943 2014-05-09 23:36:25 <gmaxwell> 2014-05-09 23:31:55 Error reading wallet database: LoadCScript failed
1944 2014-05-09 23:36:39 <gmaxwell> well thats one mystery solved.
1945 2014-05-09 23:36:55 ConvivialMatt_ has joined
1946 2014-05-09 23:37:07 <gmaxwell> (and what psycho stuff do I have in my wallet?!)
1947 2014-05-09 23:37:15 <petertodd> gmaxwell:  I'll say, wtf
1948 2014-05-09 23:37:34 <gmaxwell> still, the handling of that is no good. :P
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1950 2014-05-09 23:38:07 <petertodd> gmaxwell: well, you being the only trouble-maker, pull-reqs accepted :P
1951 2014-05-09 23:39:03 <gmaxwell> I presume the reproduction is doing a 20 of 20 addmultisigaddress or something like that.
1952 2014-05-09 23:39:21 <petertodd> ah, yeah, that'd probably be it
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1955 2014-05-09 23:39:37 <gmaxwell> what, you don't intentionally load your system up with all kinds of psycho things like that?
1956 2014-05-09 23:40:10 <petertodd> not on wallets I keep...
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1970 2014-05-09 23:54:00 <gmaxwell> roybadami: FWIW, one thing you did well with your pull is that your request anticipated and answered the question I had ("do these delimiters end up in copies and exports?").
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1973 2014-05-09 23:56:57 <roybadami> I've only really tested cutting and pasting.  Pretty convinced the export code I looked at I fixed right.... But who knows what cases I didn't think of
1974 2014-05-09 23:57:15 <roybadami> or didn't spot in the code, etc
1975 2014-05-09 23:58:12 <gmaxwell> sure sure, I'm also qtclueless, so I didn't review your code. Just remarking, since you said it was your first, that at least on the request you did the kind of stuff we'd hope for a good pull req to do.
1976 2014-05-09 23:58:28 gimmetime has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1977 2014-05-09 23:58:47 <roybadami> cC
1978 2014-05-09 23:59:21 <roybadami> Cool, thanks. I'm qtclueless, but hopefully not *actually* clueless :)
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