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   4 2014-05-10 00:01:56 <roybadami> OTOH, there's the important change, which is jsut C code, in qt/bitconunits.cpp - easy enough to review although does require a little thought..... everything else is jsut Qt stuff
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 151 2014-05-10 03:03:03 <awa> Need help creating my own alt-coin willing to pay
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 153 2014-05-10 03:03:48 <justanotheruser> awa: coingen.io, this is offtopic
 154 2014-05-10 03:03:59 <awa> I want to learn how to do it
 155 2014-05-10 03:04:02 <awa> I dont want to do it
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 157 2014-05-10 03:04:16 <awa> then suggest a better channel
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 159 2014-05-10 03:05:23 <justanotheruser> awa: nothing with #bitcoin in front of it
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 286 2014-05-10 06:40:55 <fanquake> ;;blocks
 287 2014-05-10 06:40:56 <gribble> 299999
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 290 2014-05-10 06:49:48 <psgs> ;;blocks
 291 2014-05-10 06:49:49 <gribble> 300000
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 297 2014-05-10 06:55:28 <Sepmeister> block 300,000.  yay.
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 300 2014-05-10 06:58:24 <psgs> :P
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 308 2014-05-10 07:12:53 <dabura667> HAPPY BIRTHDAY BITCOIN!!!! :D
 309 2014-05-10 07:13:09 <dabura667> ;;blocks
 310 2014-05-10 07:13:10 <gribble> 300004
 311 2014-05-10 07:14:01 <FManTX> heh
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 313 2014-05-10 07:16:31 <Luke-Jr> birth..block?
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 318 2014-05-10 07:22:05 <wumpus> woohoo!
 319 2014-05-10 07:24:08 <gmaxwell> since when was 300000 a bitcoin interesting number of blocks? wake me at 420,000
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 324 2014-05-10 07:29:04 <wumpus> but that still takes so long :p
 325 2014-05-10 07:31:19 <dabura667> I wonder if in a future society reliant on bitcoin there will be a Y2K bug esque media scare that will be completely unfounded and just be some 1 line fix.
 326 2014-05-10 07:31:56 <dabura667> Fox News: OMG THE BLOCKCHAIN WILL FORK EVERYBODY BUY INTO FOXCOIN!
 327 2014-05-10 07:33:10 <wumpus> 420 000 *still trying to get used to thin spaces as thousands seperators*
 328 2014-05-10 07:33:14 <dabura667> MSNBC: We have an "expert" on the blockchain in the studio. (Some guy:) Yeah, we're screwed, the bitcoin will collapse and the coming of satan will occur, everyone buy MSNBCoin to stay safe.
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 343 2014-05-10 07:43:22 <stonecoldpat> +1 happy birthday
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 349 2014-05-10 07:45:07 <wumpus> roybadami: I'm still not really sure about a visual representation that cannot be used for copy/pasting directly; for example, people do select the balance on the overview page and copy it
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 351 2014-05-10 07:46:24 <wumpus> so the amount widgets should be able to cope with this
 352 2014-05-10 07:46:48 <wumpus> or do they already strip spaces?
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 465 2014-05-10 10:38:50 <rebroad> I would welcome feedback on this issue I just raised: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4168
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 469 2014-05-10 10:45:53 <wumpus> rebroad: that's mailing list material
 470 2014-05-10 10:46:05 <wumpus> github is too small in scope for it
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 474 2014-05-10 10:48:41 <rebroad> wumpus, it's passed the stage where it's a subject for discussion I think. it's now a rather urgent issue.
 475 2014-05-10 10:48:49 <sipa> the 350K limit is jusy a policy
 476 2014-05-10 10:49:02 <sipa> miners can easily (and have) create larger blocks
 477 2014-05-10 10:49:04 <wumpus> rebroad: still, it needs to be discussed
 478 2014-05-10 10:49:12 <rebroad> wumpus, I totally agree
 479 2014-05-10 10:49:16 <wumpus> and in a forum as broad as possible, so that's the mailing list
 480 2014-05-10 10:49:20 <sipa> the protocol allows up to 1M
 481 2014-05-10 10:49:34 <rebroad> sipa, what is the difference between a protocol and a policy?
 482 2014-05-10 10:49:35 <sipa> going above that is the only thing that needs a hardfork
 483 2014-05-10 10:49:38 <wumpus> if needed, this is not something that can be sneaked through the back door
 484 2014-05-10 10:49:57 <rebroad> sipa, ah, it's ok, i think i know the answer already
 485 2014-05-10 10:50:04 <sipa> rebroad: protocol changes will cause a fork if not everyone upgrades
 486 2014-05-10 10:50:12 <rebroad> sipa, but maybe i don't... i'm not sure..
 487 2014-05-10 10:50:22 <wumpus> and yeah, miners can already produce 1MB blocks 
 488 2014-05-10 10:50:29 <sipa> abd do
 489 2014-05-10 10:50:33 <sipa> *and do
 490 2014-05-10 10:50:58 <rebroad> ok, so... when was the protocol changed to allow 1MB?
 491 2014-05-10 10:51:00 <wumpus> increasing it even further would require a hard fork, and buy-in from anyone, literally anyone
 492 2014-05-10 10:51:09 <sipa> it has been 1M since day 1
 493 2014-05-10 10:51:28 <wumpus> yes
 494 2014-05-10 10:51:30 <rebroad> sipa. if that's the case, what caused the fork last year?
 495 2014-05-10 10:51:35 <sipa> a bug
 496 2014-05-10 10:51:44 <sipa> triggered by a large block
 497 2014-05-10 10:51:56 <sipa> but the size of the block itself was not the problem
 498 2014-05-10 10:52:09 <sipa> just a bug in the 0.7 code
 499 2014-05-10 10:52:10 <rebroad> sipa. ah, ok.. but didn't the bug get fixed by introducing a limit less than the white paper limit?
 500 2014-05-10 10:52:16 <sipa> no
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 502 2014-05-10 10:52:30 <wumpus> no, it was fixed by stopping mining with 0.7 until it was fixed in the implementation
 503 2014-05-10 10:52:30 <rebroad> if the bug was in 0.7 code then why was it the 0.8 fork that was halted and not the 0.7 fork?
 504 2014-05-10 10:52:50 <sipa> rebroad: because going back was backward conpatible
 505 2014-05-10 10:53:01 <sipa> 0.7 was more restrictice than 0.8
 506 2014-05-10 10:53:13 <sipa> so blocks created by 0.7 were accepted by everyone
 507 2014-05-10 10:53:17 <rebroad> ok, but what you are calling a bug, is what bitcoin was from day 1
 508 2014-05-10 10:53:22 <sipa> no
 509 2014-05-10 10:53:26 <rebroad> oh..
 510 2014-05-10 10:53:42 <rebroad> ah, so it was introduced in 0.7?
 511 2014-05-10 10:53:51 <sipa> it was just a setting in bdb that was set by default too low
 512 2014-05-10 10:54:05 <sipa> you can run 0.7 today if you increase that setting
 513 2014-05-10 10:54:17 <rebroad> so when was the bug introduced? day 1? 0.7, or somewhere in between?
 514 2014-05-10 10:54:44 <sipa> but at the time of the fork we could not each and every single node on the network to upgrade to 0.8 or change the setting
 515 2014-05-10 10:54:57 <sipa> so we just asked that miners revert to 0.7 temporarily
 516 2014-05-10 10:55:27 <rebroad> you say it has been 1M since day 1, but didn't the bug make it less than 1M?
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 518 2014-05-10 10:55:34 <sipa> and added a very temporary rule that made 0.8 reject things that 0.7 would trip over
 519 2014-05-10 10:55:46 <sipa> which was removed 3 months later
 520 2014-05-10 10:56:03 <sipa> and *that* removing was the first and only hard fork we ever did
 521 2014-05-10 10:56:08 <wumpus> yes, the bug made it less than 1MB, but the bug is fixed. The hard limit was always *meant* to be 1MB
 522 2014-05-10 10:56:28 <sipa> the bug didn't have anything to do with size...
 523 2014-05-10 10:56:33 <rebroad> i see... so what is the 350K limit mentioned in the 0.8.6 release notes?
 524 2014-05-10 10:56:50 <wumpus> it is the default limit for miners, it can be bumped with a simple command line option
 525 2014-05-10 10:56:54 <sipa> it was the number of distinct txids affected by a block that was ~4500 due to the bug
 526 2014-05-10 10:57:24 <sipa> most 1MB blocks wouldn't reach that number
 527 2014-05-10 10:57:36 <wumpus> ah, right, it was some other limit
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 529 2014-05-10 10:57:42 <sipa> the block that triggered the bug last year contained very strange transactions
 530 2014-05-10 10:58:07 <rebroad> ok, so the issue I raised isn't quite so urgent then.. we have maybe a year or two before the 1M limit is reached, yes?
 531 2014-05-10 10:58:45 <rebroad> although, why the 350K limit? We are already averaging around 250K per block and the size is doubling every 18 months or so, so 350K will be reached pretty soon
 532 2014-05-10 10:58:51 <sipa> the block size limit should be whatever the technology allows without forcing unnecessary centralization
 533 2014-05-10 10:59:03 <sipa> if that is 1MB, then so be it
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 535 2014-05-10 10:59:18 <sipa> currently we just don't kbow how well the network scales withblarger blocks
 536 2014-05-10 11:00:08 <rebroad> I think it's best if we give the vote to the bitcoin buyers.. the limit will be reached if bitcoins continues to grow, and it will kinda break bitcoin if that happens, especially with so many people touting it as a replacement currency
 537 2014-05-10 11:00:09 <sipa> i don't consider that a problem; we'll only know how well bitcoin deals with growth once competition for block space starts
 538 2014-05-10 11:00:10 <wumpus> there is no 350k limit
 539 2014-05-10 11:00:32 <sipa> you confuse bitcoin the currency with bitcoin the system
 540 2014-05-10 11:00:46 <sipa> there is no way the blockchain can deal with every coffee being bought
 541 2014-05-10 11:00:54 <wumpus> a vote to bitcoin buyers? really? can we move this to #bitcoin?
 542 2014-05-10 11:01:10 <rebroad> sipa... I know that. but there are still a lot of people thinking that is what bitcoin can do
 543 2014-05-10 11:01:21 <sipa> well, too bad for them
 544 2014-05-10 11:01:26 <wumpus> yes, too bad for them
 545 2014-05-10 11:01:36 <wumpus> people think all kinds of weird things, better get used to it
 546 2014-05-10 11:01:47 <sipa> start an awareness campaign then if you think that is a problem
 547 2014-05-10 11:01:50 <rebroad> wumpus, a vote in the sense of exchanges letting people chose which bitcoin they are wanting to buy into.. and a planned date in which a new fork will start
 548 2014-05-10 11:01:59 <sipa> you don't get it
 549 2014-05-10 11:02:23 <sipa> we don't know to which point bitcoin can scale
 550 2014-05-10 11:02:33 <sipa> or what optimizations are needed to get there
 551 2014-05-10 11:02:49 <sipa> it's not a simoke decision "let's allow up to X"
 552 2014-05-10 11:02:54 <sipa> *simole
 553 2014-05-10 11:02:58 <sipa> *simPle
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 556 2014-05-10 11:03:54 <sipa> (and it needs to be done in a coordinated way... splitting the chain means every old coin can be spent twice after the fork; imho that is economic suicide much more than no longer being able to put every coffee in the chain)
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 558 2014-05-10 11:05:24 <rebroad> I've been thinking about it.. is it really economic suicide.. my feeling is that once the network splits, people will still be holding the same amount of value as before it split... it can't be any other way. Newton's first law of thermodynamics.
 559 2014-05-10 11:05:43 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 560 2014-05-10 11:06:06 <rebroad> since money is energy.. or so my spiritual friends in Bali say
 561 2014-05-10 11:06:29 <sipa> sorry, this has nothing to do with texhnology anymore
 562 2014-05-10 11:06:33 <sipa> #bitcoin please
 563 2014-05-10 11:07:09 <rebroad> ok
 564 2014-05-10 11:08:41 <rebroad> on a tech side.. can the nodes be changed to allow download of blocks from multiple nodes. and i mean, the same block, but different parts of that block from several nodes
 565 2014-05-10 11:09:40 <sipa> in theory, yes, but it needs some protocol changes (not the hardforking type though)
 566 2014-05-10 11:09:47 <rebroad> would require a protocol change i realise, but just to allow parts of blocks to be downloaded.. or perhaps a move to using http get request for example
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 568 2014-05-10 11:10:06 <sipa> but with the current block sizes, there is no need for that
 569 2014-05-10 11:10:45 <sipa> downloading different blocks from different nodes would be good enough
 570 2014-05-10 11:11:23 <rebroad> when i was using a GPRS connection, 200K was pretty slow to download... sometimes took a few minutes per block
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 573 2014-05-10 11:11:46 <rebroad> well, ok, a few seconds i mean
 574 2014-05-10 11:11:51 <sipa> then doing one blocm from multiple peers won't help
 575 2014-05-10 11:13:19 <rebroad> sipa, are you on #bitcoin currently?
 576 2014-05-10 11:13:50 <rebroad> i think it is a discussion for the core developers to be involved in really..
 577 2014-05-10 11:14:30 <sipa> then do it on the mailing list
 578 2014-05-10 11:14:43 <rebroad> i think a hardfork in place is better than no hardfork in place and the rapid escalation of miner fees that could ensue without a hardfork in place
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 580 2014-05-10 11:15:28 <sipa> i think a hardfork in place without knowing how well the technology scales is crazy
 581 2014-05-10 11:15:29 <rebroad> sipa, ok. although i do prefer irc
 582 2014-05-10 11:15:49 <rebroad> sipa, you might be right. but how can we know before it's too late?
 583 2014-05-10 11:16:06 <sipa> stop being so fatalistic
 584 2014-05-10 11:16:29 <rebroad> sipa, at least we know that the block limit will be too short soon at current growth rates, so why keep that bottleneck with the argument that there may be others?
 585 2014-05-10 11:17:10 <rebroad> i'm sure people would have said that to me if I was travelling with them on the Titanic
 586 2014-05-10 11:17:27 <sipa> and they would be right; the odds were tiny
 587 2014-05-10 11:18:18 <sipa> given the fact that the blockchain cannot scale to every transaction on earth, there will at some point be a selection
 588 2014-05-10 11:18:21 <rebroad> i don't think the odds can actually be defined other than by the results which was that they sunk
 589 2014-05-10 11:18:33 <sipa> some transactions will need to happen off chain
 590 2014-05-10 11:18:42 <sipa> there is no way around that, and that is fine
 591 2014-05-10 11:19:01 <sipa> not every transaction requires the trustfreeness the blockchain offers
 592 2014-05-10 11:19:04 <rebroad> ok, i agree.. off-chain transactions... is there some development being done around that?
 593 2014-05-10 11:19:19 <sipa> there are various ideas yes
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 595 2014-05-10 11:19:26 <rebroad> i do think an awareness campaign is long overdue..
 596 2014-05-10 11:20:00 <sipa> from a technical point of view, i want to see that "limit" being hit
 597 2014-05-10 11:20:05 <rebroad> sorry to start this conversation and then leave.. but i do have to dash now.. thank you sipa for your input and candid responses.
 598 2014-05-10 11:20:12 <sipa> as we can't avoid it
 599 2014-05-10 11:20:27 <sipa> *then* we can see how to raise it
 600 2014-05-10 11:20:45 <rebroad> ok, i can see the potential wisdom in that..
 601 2014-05-10 11:20:45 <sipa> yw
 602 2014-05-10 11:21:49 <rebroad> so the 350K limit is in part to allow the limit to be reached sooner so that we can better assess the impact..?
 603 2014-05-10 11:22:10 <sipa> there is no 350K limit
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 605 2014-05-10 11:22:16 <sipa> it's just a default setting
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 607 2014-05-10 11:23:03 <sipa> if miners feel they're missing out because of missed fees, and can cope with the slowest block propagation of larger blocks, they are free to increase it
 608 2014-05-10 11:23:11 <sipa> *slower
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 610 2014-05-10 11:23:22 <rebroad> yes, default limit I meant. http://tradeblock.com/research/bitcoin-0-8-6-released-updates-block-size-limits-free-transactions-osx-bugs/
 611 2014-05-10 11:23:29 <sipa> it's just a setting
 612 2014-05-10 11:23:55 <rebroad> what is the logic for the default limit being 350K rather than 1M?
 613 2014-05-10 11:24:34 <rebroad> ah.. faster block propagation.. yes?
 614 2014-05-10 11:24:49 <sipa> so part of it is just "suggestion"
 615 2014-05-10 11:25:04 <sipa> as many miners don't care or kbow about what settings they can change
 616 2014-05-10 11:25:25 <sipa> and larger blocks may hurt them to an extent (slower propagation)
 617 2014-05-10 11:25:47 <sipa> another is to prevent unnecessarily fast growth of the block chain
 618 2014-05-10 11:25:49 <rebroad> ok, there are many other factors at play it seems and various incentives to reduce the size from 1M anyway..  it does seem it's best to wait it out and see what happens... sorry for being fatalistic.
 619 2014-05-10 11:26:01 <sipa> and ibguess another is to have some minimal fee incentive
 620 2014-05-10 11:26:25 <sipa> as without a limit that is in reach, there is no competition gor space
 621 2014-05-10 11:26:25 <rebroad> ok.. I'm off... thanks and ttfn
 622 2014-05-10 11:26:40 <sipa> and the ecosysyem needs to deal with such competition sooner or later
 623 2014-05-10 11:26:41 <sipa> cya
 624 2014-05-10 11:29:16 <Eliel_> as long as we're not hitting the limit but are reasonably close, the biggest problem is that if we get a huge burst of transactions, user experience is going to get hit and people will start complaining about slow transactions.
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 629 2014-05-10 11:40:39 <sipa> Eliel_: and that's when a fee market will appear :)
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 636 2014-05-10 11:46:28 <Eliel_> sipa: It has happened a few times. I don't see a fee market yet.
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 640 2014-05-10 11:52:07 <sipa> well we don't have floating fees
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 703 2014-05-10 13:41:23 <sipa> wut:
 704 2014-05-10 13:41:26 <sipa> 2014-05-10 13:38:16 receive version message: .4: version 31402, blocks=297871, us=178.18.90.41:8333, them=0.0.0.0:0, peer=192.157.56.162:46014
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 707 2014-05-10 13:42:58 <hearn> someone just got back from a loooooooooooong time living in a cave, and discovered their old wallet might be worth something :)
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 711 2014-05-10 13:51:07 <sipa> i'm very surprised they got to 297k blocks!
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 749 2014-05-10 14:41:57 <survic> sipa: I honestly don't think they could have, even 0.7 versions that don't have the berkeleydb configuration change have been left behind
 750 2014-05-10 14:43:12 <sipa> maybe they did do the bdb config change?
 751 2014-05-10 14:43:29 <sipa> or maybe 0.3.14 wasn't vulnerable to that yet...
 752 2014-05-10 14:46:03 <survic> don't think so, bitnodes.io doesn't have a single record of a node < 0.8
 753 2014-05-10 14:46:33 <survic> someone's spoofing their user agent badly maybe?
 754 2014-05-10 14:47:33 <sipa> perhaps
 755 2014-05-10 14:47:38 <sipa> it's easy enough
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