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 102 2014-05-11 02:32:38 <Gerendon> Looking for a proficient PHP coder for developing the back-end of a site interface. PM for more details.
 103 2014-05-11 02:33:23 <teward> try craigslist
 104 2014-05-11 02:33:34 <teward> or a job hunting site
 105 2014-05-11 02:33:36 <Gerendon> It's bitcoin related
 106 2014-05-11 02:34:01 <Gerendon> I'd rather find help here, I try not to be annoying but just list that here incase anyone is interested
 107 2014-05-11 02:34:52 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
 108 2014-05-11 02:36:29 <Luke-Jr> Gerendon: does it help accomplish your goals if you get banned here for not following the rules?
 109 2014-05-11 02:36:52 <Luke-Jr> if not, please be respectful of them
 110 2014-05-11 02:37:23 <Gerendon> Luke-Jr I was told earlier this was allowed as long it's never spammed and I am respectful. I apologize to you then
 111 2014-05-11 02:41:16 <justanotheruser> Gerendon: #bitcoin-otc
 112 2014-05-11 02:42:53 <Gerendon> justanotheruser: thanks
 113 2014-05-11 02:43:33 weilu has joined
 114 2014-05-11 02:43:36 <akstunt600> Hey, im having a p2pool issue here and #p2pool is dead right now
 115 2014-05-11 02:44:12 <akstunt600> I am no noob to p2pool, and have been mining on it for over a year
 116 2014-05-11 02:44:23 <akstunt600> I have my own public pool http://liberty-miners.com
 117 2014-05-11 02:44:49 <akstunt600> I made an identical pool for a friend of mine on EC2 AWS and it nothing but work restarts
 118 2014-05-11 02:45:04 <akstunt600> Where my pool runs perfectly with many acceted shares
 119 2014-05-11 02:45:19 <akstunt600> Both are same versions of p2pool and wallets daemons
 120 2014-05-11 02:45:43 <akstunt600> My server is hosted at home however and is out performing the large ec2 instance with ease
 121 2014-05-11 02:45:46 <akstunt600> What gives?
 122 2014-05-11 02:47:33 <akstunt600> other instance on ec2 here http://54.85.60.102:9555/static/
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 155 2014-05-11 03:26:57 <owowo> !roulette
 156 2014-05-11 03:26:58 * gribble reloads and spins the chambers.
 157 2014-05-11 03:27:07 owowo has joined
 158 2014-05-11 03:27:21 <robonerd> !pingpong
 159 2014-05-11 03:27:21 <gribble> Error: "pingpong" is not a valid command.
 160 2014-05-11 03:27:27 <robonerd> hm
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 165 2014-05-11 03:33:49 <akstunt600> !roulette
 166 2014-05-11 03:33:50 * gribble reloads and spins the chambers.
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 168 2014-05-11 03:34:16 <akstunt600> hey that isnt how roulette is supposed to be coded
 169 2014-05-11 03:34:26 <akstunt600> WTF, and no p2pool help
 170 2014-05-11 03:34:28 <akstunt600> thanks guys
 171 2014-05-11 03:34:30 weilu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 173 2014-05-11 03:35:30 <akstunt600> this pool has the same problems with the btc node btw
 174 2014-05-11 03:35:39 <survic> akstunt600: it's not really the right channel for roulette or p2pool.
 175 2014-05-11 03:35:54 <akstunt600> I know, those channels are dead and its quiet in here
 176 2014-05-11 03:36:02 <akstunt600> So, i dont see the issue
 177 2014-05-11 03:36:21 <akstunt600> Its as simple question are there issues running p2pool on ec2.
 178 2014-05-11 03:36:51 <akstunt600> I know that many complain about iops on ec2... could that be my issue?
 179 2014-05-11 03:37:00 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 180 2014-05-11 03:37:16 <akstunt600> I have btc and 9 other nodes running on the instance
 181 2014-05-11 03:37:27 <akstunt600> All had p2pool running
 182 2014-05-11 03:37:45 <akstunt600> i reduced it to just btc ltc and doge and issues still persist
 183 2014-05-11 03:37:51 wingsuit has joined
 184 2014-05-11 03:38:06 <akstunt600> Has anyone has performance issues with btc nodes on ec2?
 185 2014-05-11 03:38:40 weilu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 186 2014-05-11 03:38:43 <teward> it's an ec2, it's not built for BTC nodes.
 187 2014-05-11 03:38:53 <akstunt600> Thanks, i figured
 188 2014-05-11 03:39:03 <teward> you're always gonna see performance issues with EC2s on pretty much anything large like BTC nodes, IMO.
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 193 2014-05-11 03:43:09 <akstunt600> thanks a lot teward. I really appreciate it. Thats the only conclusion i was able to come up with
 194 2014-05-11 03:43:25 Guest7901 is now known as Shiftos
 195 2014-05-11 03:43:46 <akstunt600> Ofc the ubuntu instance reports its running quickly im now going to bench it and see just how bad
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 198 2014-05-11 03:44:10 <akstunt600> Ughh what a pain. Im starting to think they are pretty over sunbscribed
 199 2014-05-11 03:44:40 <survic> ec2 is pretty overpriced for what it is
 200 2014-05-11 03:45:43 <akstunt600> Yeah, i always thought it was decently priced. Not any more. Digital ocean here i come. :-)
 201 2014-05-11 03:45:55 <akstunt600> Thanks for your help too survic
 202 2014-05-11 03:46:08 <survic> sorry I couldn't be more of it. best of luck.
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 213 2014-05-11 03:53:50 <akstunt600> I think you guys are spot on. iotop confirms
 214 2014-05-11 03:53:50 zcopley has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 215 2014-05-11 03:53:54 <akstunt600> thanks
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 222 2014-05-11 03:59:38 <flound1129> akstunt600: you could try instance storage.  It's supposed to be a little faster than the persistent storage
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 224 2014-05-11 03:59:48 <flound1129> only problem is, if the machine ever stops, it goes away
 225 2014-05-11 04:00:38 <flound1129> but yeah DO is way better
 226 2014-05-11 04:00:38 <flound1129> imo
 227 2014-05-11 04:00:43 <flound1129> ssd ftw
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 254 2014-05-11 04:39:32 <akstunt600> thnks flound1129
 255 2014-05-11 04:39:58 <akstunt600> I will give that a try before i decide to move over to digital ocean
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 350 2014-05-11 07:17:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|10:21:55 <gmaxwell> since when was 300000 a bitcoin interesting number of blocks? wake me at 420,000 <-- or 314159
 351 2014-05-11 07:21:08 ganjafarmer has joined
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 353 2014-05-11 07:22:18 <ganjafarmer> question about debug.log.  where it says log2_work=75.802945, does that number refer to the total expected number of hashes in the whole chain?
 354 2014-05-11 07:27:53 otimie has joined
 355 2014-05-11 07:28:35 <sipa> indeed
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 358 2014-05-11 07:31:30 <ganjafarmer> thanks
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 362 2014-05-11 07:34:19 <sipa> ;;calc 2**75.802945
 363 2014-05-11 07:34:20 <gribble> 65911349649659469496320
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 366 2014-05-11 07:36:54 <ganjafarmer> that was 20,000 blocks ago too.  im still syncing up.
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 376 2014-05-11 07:49:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|66 sextillion hashes? Wow.
 377 2014-05-11 07:50:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What's the equivalent difficulty?
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 379 2014-05-11 07:53:21 <sipa> no such thing
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 381 2014-05-11 07:53:42 <sipa> difficulty ~ hashes per second
 382 2014-05-11 07:53:49 <sipa> work ~ hashes
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 384 2014-05-11 07:54:00 <CodeShark> difficulty is a normalized reciprocal
 385 2014-05-11 07:54:09 <CodeShark> so there is a corresponding difficulty
 386 2014-05-11 07:54:16 <sipa> eh no
 387 2014-05-11 07:54:21 <sipa> it's the wrong unit
 388 2014-05-11 07:55:00 <sipa> it's like asking how muvh water you can boil with 100W
 389 2014-05-11 07:55:07 <CodeShark> or rather, difficulty only considers the expected number of hashes for a particular block
 390 2014-05-11 07:55:12 <CodeShark> not the total for the entire chain
 391 2014-05-11 07:55:24 <sipa> oh, per block
 392 2014-05-11 07:55:43 <sipa> well, that doesn't make much sense, but you could calculate that
 393 2014-05-11 07:56:49 <sipa> ;;calc 2**78.52 * 65535 / 2**32
 394 2014-05-11 07:56:49 <gribble> 6612850462695141376
 395 2014-05-11 07:57:24 <sipa> ^ what the difficulty would have to be to have the same amount of work as the entire chain in one block
 396 2014-05-11 07:57:58 <sipa> ;;diff
 397 2014-05-11 07:57:59 <gribble> 8.0008721359681635E9
 398 2014-05-11 07:58:29 <sipa> ;;calc 2**78.52 * 65535 / 2**32 / [diff]
 399 2014-05-11 07:58:30 <gribble> Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
 400 2014-05-11 07:58:39 <CodeShark> it would be more useful if we consider the difficulty of replacing the last n blocks
 401 2014-05-11 07:59:12 <sipa> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/powdays-50k.png
 402 2014-05-11 07:59:20 <sipa> that's a related notion
 403 2014-05-11 07:59:49 <sipa> how much hashing at the current network speed it would need to do the same amount of work as the entire chain
 404 2014-05-11 08:01:34 <CodeShark> when it drops presumably it's because a large amount of hashing power joins the network
 405 2014-05-11 08:01:41 <CodeShark> suddenly
 406 2014-05-11 08:02:16 <CodeShark> then if the hash rate remains constant, the graph slowly rises
 407 2014-05-11 08:02:27 <CodeShark> linearly
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 415 2014-05-11 08:04:20 <CodeShark> the drop in that graph seems to be around the point of inflection of this graph: https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate?showDataPoints=false&show_header=true&daysAverageString=1&timespan=&scale=1&address=
 416 2014-05-11 08:04:47 <CodeShark> it's accelerating up until about november, then it decelerates
 417 2014-05-11 08:04:59 <sipa> oh, that's just an artefact of using the maximum hashrate observed in a window
 418 2014-05-11 08:05:08 <sipa> it's too variable otherwise
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 420 2014-05-11 08:06:45 <CodeShark> variable because of people joining and leaving? or because of the inherent variance and the fact we cannot really measure hashrate?
 421 2014-05-11 08:06:52 <sipa> and do you really have tomrefer to b.i? :p
 422 2014-05-11 08:07:07 <sipa> bitcoin.sipa.be has more accurate graphs :)
 423 2014-05-11 08:07:32 <CodeShark> sorry - just did a quick search :p
 424 2014-05-11 08:07:40 <CodeShark> you need to do some more search engine optimization
 425 2014-05-11 08:07:58 <sipa> haha
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 428 2014-05-11 08:09:59 <CodeShark> anyhow, the dip is clearly the china incident :p
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 433 2014-05-11 08:14:26 <CodeShark> sipa, are you presenting anything at bitcoin 2014?
 434 2014-05-11 08:14:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: right, let me rephrase -- what difficulty single block would 66 sextillion hashes be expected to produce?
 435 2014-05-11 08:15:14 weilu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 436 2014-05-11 08:15:36 <CodeShark> michagogo|cloud: you mean, what's the expected value of the smallest hash if you were to do 66 sextillion hashes?
 437 2014-05-11 08:15:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I think so.
 438 2014-05-11 08:15:51 weilu has joined
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 440 2014-05-11 08:18:45 <CodeShark> if N is the size of the space (2^256), the probability of getting a hash value larger than n for a single hash is (N-n)/N, right?
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 442 2014-05-11 08:19:31 <CodeShark> so the probability of not getting a hash smaller than n for k hashes is [(N-n)/N]^k
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 444 2014-05-11 08:19:57 <CodeShark> the probability of the smallest hash being n is therefore the complement
 445 2014-05-11 08:20:06 <CodeShark> 1 - [(N-n)/N]^k
 446 2014-05-11 08:20:17 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 447 2014-05-11 08:21:00 <CodeShark> so sum [n: 0..N] n {1 - [(N-n)/N]^k}
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 449 2014-05-11 08:22:38 <CodeShark> or no, sorry :p
 450 2014-05-11 08:23:14 <sipa> CodeShark: i'll be there, but not presenting
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 452 2014-05-11 08:23:32 <sipa> CodeShark: no, that's not the same thing
 453 2014-05-11 08:23:52 <sipa> oh, wait
 454 2014-05-11 08:24:07 <CodeShark> 1 - [(N-n)/N]^k is the probability of getting at least one hash smaller than n
 455 2014-05-11 08:24:17 <CodeShark> out of k hashes
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 457 2014-05-11 08:25:52 <CodeShark> but we're actually after the probability of n being the smallest hash
 458 2014-05-11 08:26:10 <CodeShark> or n-1, if you will
 459 2014-05-11 08:26:25 <sipa> you're making it way too hard
 460 2014-05-11 08:26:42 <sipa> work is defined as 2^256 / target
 461 2014-05-11 08:27:06 <sipa> so you're expected to beat a target of 2^256 / 66 sextillion
 462 2014-05-11 08:27:33 <CodeShark> oh, right :p
 463 2014-05-11 08:27:35 <sipa> ;;calc 2**75.802945 * 65535 / 2**32
 464 2014-05-11 08:27:36 <gribble> 1005712034946874112
 465 2014-05-11 08:27:49 <sipa> ^- that difficulty corresponds to 66 sextillion
 466 2014-05-11 08:27:57 <sipa> (though the total work now is already higher)
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 489 2014-05-11 09:09:41 <ganjafarmer> is there some way i can speed up my build process?  i make a small change to main.cpp then run 'make' and it spends minutes re-building multiple objects.
 490 2014-05-11 09:11:40 <sipa> not really, modularizing the source code is a slow but ongoing process
 491 2014-05-11 09:12:26 <CodeShark> advice: do most of your work in separate source files and only add minimal hooks in files like main.h or main.cpp
 492 2014-05-11 09:12:56 <CodeShark> editing main.h in particular is especially costly
 493 2014-05-11 09:13:16 <benten> ganjafarmer: you could try to run your compiler on a faster machine it might cut down a bit.
 494 2014-05-11 09:13:34 McMont has joined
 495 2014-05-11 09:13:52 <ganjafarmer> is it normal that 'make' recompiles ALL objects even when i only touch main.cpp?
 496 2014-05-11 09:14:05 <sipa> if you only touch main.cpp: no
 497 2014-05-11 09:14:05 <CodeShark> no
 498 2014-05-11 09:14:10 <sipa> if you touch main.h: yes
 499 2014-05-11 09:14:15 <sipa> (not all, but many)
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 501 2014-05-11 09:14:47 <CodeShark> most of the stuff in main.h/main.cpp shouldn't be there and what should be there isn't :p
 502 2014-05-11 09:14:53 <CodeShark> namely, int main
 503 2014-05-11 09:15:03 <sipa> nobody disagrees about that
 504 2014-05-11 09:16:01 <CodeShark> unfortunately, satoshi cultivated a style which largely consists of adding externs to main.h whenever you need a new global state variable
 505 2014-05-11 09:16:51 <sipa> he should have used a style that properly encapsulated things, and didn't need global variables in the first place
 506 2014-05-11 09:16:51 <CodeShark> just moving these externs into separate source files would already go some ways in reducing the problem
 507 2014-05-11 09:17:24 <ganjafarmer> benten: unfortunately i'm building in a really slow vm :(
 508 2014-05-11 09:17:47 <CodeShark> just saying, if you're going to use global variables, keep them in short source files that are easily compiled and linked against :p
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 510 2014-05-11 09:18:22 <CodeShark> don't stick them in the same source files that contain most of your core functionality
 511 2014-05-11 09:19:08 <CodeShark> preferably as members of some singleton object
 512 2014-05-11 09:20:02 <CodeShark> anyhow, I developed a defensive strategy against this when tweaking bitcoind after suffering much
 513 2014-05-11 09:20:22 <CodeShark> it is based on avoiding touching main.h and main.cpp as much as possible :p
 514 2014-05-11 09:21:06 <CodeShark> not only will it dramatically speed up your build times - it will make merging much simpler as well
 515 2014-05-11 09:22:43 <CodeShark> a little bit of effort early on in creating a new source file and adding the includes will save you a bunch of agony as a result of being lazy and figuring everything already includes main.h anyhow
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 592 2014-05-11 11:34:49 <donvino> jg
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 704 2014-05-11 13:37:02 <fastforward> Hi
 705 2014-05-11 13:37:46 <fastforward> i'd appreciate some help please.
 706 2014-05-11 13:38:02 <sipa> that's really hard without knowing what your problem is
 707 2014-05-11 13:39:42 <fastforward> as i am not a developer, i am looking for a easy-way to setup a "automatic" transaction from Bitcoin-QT (bitcoind) wallet to another address. like a batchfile checking transactions on my wallet and "forward" to another wallet
 708 2014-05-11 13:40:23 <fastforward> looking for quite some hours now, found many answers but i cannot "write" that myself
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 710 2014-05-11 13:41:58 <fastforward> can anyone help me pls with that or point me to a link, explaining in detail what to do?
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 714 2014-05-11 13:46:06 <fastforward> ...am i on the right channel for this? =)  and how much of a btc bounty/reward  would be needed to get this done?
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 719 2014-05-11 13:47:57 <fastforward> uhm.... okay :/   thanks.
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 721 2014-05-11 13:48:47 <shesek> fastforward, why do you need to forward transactions?
 722 2014-05-11 13:48:52 <shesek> oh. he left.
 723 2014-05-11 13:49:00 <jcorgan> off-topic anyway
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 792 2014-05-11 14:37:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...fairly simple, though...
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 795 2014-05-11 14:39:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just a matter of a quick script that uses RPC and gets either balance or unspent outputs, and then creates a transaction to the other wallet
 796 2014-05-11 14:40:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(The real question is, why does he think he wants that)
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 855 2014-05-11 16:06:32 <lmf> where can I find bitcoin 0.8.99
 856 2014-05-11 16:06:40 <lmf> the source code
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 866 2014-05-11 16:23:08 <survic> lmf: there is no 0.8.99, the ".99" just denotes that's non-release (from master)
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 869 2014-05-11 16:23:42 <lmf> survic: I am a bit confugsed with the seed node thing
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 871 2014-05-11 16:23:59 <lmf> I don't understand what few lines do, can you explain?
 872 2014-05-11 16:24:21 <lmf> vSeeds.push_back
 873 2014-05-11 16:24:37 <survic> lmf: possibly, if not me somebody else is sure to chime in later. best to link to the line on github.
 874 2014-05-11 16:24:38 <lmf> chainparams.cpp line 143
 875 2014-05-11 16:25:37 <lmf> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/chainparams.cpp#L143
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 877 2014-05-11 16:26:09 <survic> those lines just definte the DNS seeds, special DNS servers which return valid bitcoin nodes in response.
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 881 2014-05-11 16:27:11 <lmf> ok so making an analogy, it is like the the trackers for torrents? that keep the addresses of all active nodes in the p2p network?
 882 2014-05-11 16:28:19 <survic> not quite, they aren't needed unless the node connecting to them can't find anybody else to talk to. usually a node uses it's own database of addresses gained from asking other peers who they know about. the DNS seeds are a fallback position for a new node, or one that has just lost it's way.
 883 2014-05-11 16:29:08 <lmf> and there are so many of them defined in case one of them fails?
 884 2014-05-11 16:29:15 <survic> just above on line 21 is pnSeed[], IPv4 addresses of stable known nodes. this is a fallback for when the node knows no peers, and can't find anything useful from the defined DNS nodes.
 885 2014-05-11 16:29:51 <survic> yes, the multiple nodes are just redundant. even if only one DNS seed returns one valid result, that's enough to bootstrap to the network and not need the seeds anymore.
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 887 2014-05-11 16:30:53 <lmf> so does lets say a different coin than bitcoin use different seed nodes?
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 889 2014-05-11 16:31:31 <lmf> like litecoin
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 891 2014-05-11 16:31:53 <survic> it must, otherwise it will just get useless results. bitcoin seed nodes only return data about bitcoin peers. I assume litecoin has it's own, though I haven't looked.
 892 2014-05-11 16:33:24 <survic> yes, they have their own defined nodes, just not in the same location and Litecoin hasn't kept up with the upstream Bitcoin.
 893 2014-05-11 16:33:31 <lmf> where can I find the source code for seed nodes, and can I potentially set one up and commit a change to the source code
 894 2014-05-11 16:33:58 <survic> altcoin development is off topic for this channel.
 895 2014-05-11 16:33:59 <sipa> you mean the static seed IPs, or the DNS seeds?
 896 2014-05-11 16:34:05 <lmf> like         vSeeds.push_back(CDNSSeedData("129.xxx.x.x.x", "129.xxx.x.x.x"));
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 898 2014-05-11 16:34:23 <sipa> some are just static DNS entries
 899 2014-05-11 16:34:38 <lmf> yeah but they run a seed node server right?
 900 2014-05-11 16:34:51 <sipa> no, those are just DNS entries
 901 2014-05-11 16:35:04 <sipa> pointing to valid bitcoin node IPs
 902 2014-05-11 16:35:20 <sipa> you can run special DNS software to automatically refresh what they point to
 903 2014-05-11 16:35:26 <sipa> some dns seeds run that, but not all
 904 2014-05-11 16:35:49 <lmf> ok so these DNS servers point at different IP every time I would ping them?
 905 2014-05-11 16:35:53 <sipa> maybe
 906 2014-05-11 16:35:54 <lmf> which is the IP of a valid node?
 907 2014-05-11 16:36:04 <sipa> ?
 908 2014-05-11 16:36:15 <sipa> you don't ping a DNS server, you do a lookup
 909 2014-05-11 16:36:15 <survic> sipa: just a funny side note, Google has picked up on your seed node and now indexes websites that have a webserver and bitcoin daemon on the same IP address. you've a heap of weird stuff on your subdomains.
 910 2014-05-11 16:36:24 <survic> ;; QUESTION SECTION
 911 2014-05-11 16:36:26 <gribble> Error: "QUESTION" is not a valid command.
 912 2014-05-11 16:36:27 <survic> ;seed.bitcoin.sipa.be.          IN      A
 913 2014-05-11 16:36:29 <survic> ;; ANSWER SECTION:
 914 2014-05-11 16:36:29 <gribble> Error: "ANSWER" is not a valid command.
 915 2014-05-11 16:36:32 <survic> seed.bitcoin.sipa.be.   59      IN      A       75.73.191.108
 916 2014-05-11 16:36:45 <survic> crap. that didn't work how I intended.
 917 2014-05-11 16:37:11 <survic> lmf: just 'dig seed.bitcoin.sipa.be' and you'll see how it's meant to look.
 918 2014-05-11 16:37:18 <lmf> I see
 919 2014-05-11 16:37:58 <lmf> these nodes in the network are active wallets or miners?
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 921 2014-05-11 16:38:05 <lmf> what is the difference between the two?
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 923 2014-05-11 16:38:17 <survic> there is no difference.
 924 2014-05-11 16:38:34 <sipa> nodes are not wallets
 925 2014-05-11 16:38:36 <survic> nodes are not wallets, nodes might be miners.
 926 2014-05-11 16:38:41 <sipa> the reference client can function as both though
 927 2014-05-11 16:39:04 <lmf> so wallets now, only read the block chain right?
 928 2014-05-11 16:39:12 <lmf> what else could a node be?
 929 2014-05-11 16:39:19 <sipa> a node is simply a node in the network
 930 2014-05-11 16:39:33 <sipa> any entity using the p2p network to connect to other nodes
 931 2014-05-11 16:39:39 <lmf> well how does someone join the network and become a node
 932 2014-05-11 16:39:45 <lmf> for example, mining
 933 2014-05-11 16:39:47 <survic> sipa: actually, one of the results for the seed subdomain of yours is a coin-stealing wallet :)
 934 2014-05-11 16:39:59 <sipa> lmf: by running software that implements it
 935 2014-05-11 16:40:13 <sipa> the reference client is one
 936 2014-05-11 16:40:25 <lmf> sipa what other software do?
 937 2014-05-11 16:40:26 <sipa> but there are lightweight wallets too that are not fully validating nodes
 938 2014-05-11 16:40:36 <lmf> I see
 939 2014-05-11 16:40:39 <sipa> or crawlers like the ones run by dns seeds are nodes too
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 941 2014-05-11 16:41:00 <lmf> so are miners nodes too?
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 943 2014-05-11 16:41:12 <sipa> miners need a full node to build blocks
 944 2014-05-11 16:41:18 <survic> there's no distinction between a "miner" and a "node" really.
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 946 2014-05-11 16:41:25 <sipa> if you're talking about pool mining, it's the pool that runs the node
 947 2014-05-11 16:41:32 <sipa> and the miner only hashes
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 951 2014-05-11 16:43:09 <lmf> sipa, assuming there are no DNS seed nodes, how would a node find other nodes
 952 2014-05-11 16:43:20 <lmf> and no pnSeed
 953 2014-05-11 16:43:31 <survic> lmf: like I said, it uses the hardcoded nodes just above the line you mentioned.
 954 2014-05-11 16:43:42 <survic> if those fail, the node is isolated.
 955 2014-05-11 16:43:57 <lmf> survic: the hardcoded nodes you mean pnSeed?
 956 2014-05-11 16:44:15 <survic> yes
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 960 2014-05-11 16:44:46 <survic> if all three discovery mechanisms fail, there's no way of it finding peers.
 961 2014-05-11 16:45:12 <lmf> survic: so the network is not fully decentralized right?
 962 2014-05-11 16:45:17 <sipa> lmf: 1) by getting nodes specified through -addnode  2) by being told about them by other nodes  3) by reading them from its peer database  4) as a fallback, by using the ones in pnSeed
 963 2014-05-11 16:45:33 <sipa> initial peer discovery can never be fully decentralized
 964 2014-05-11 16:45:49 <survic> lmf: how else do you imagine it's going to work? short of crawling the whole IPv4 space to find peers.
 965 2014-05-11 16:46:03 <sipa> don't forget about the IPv6 space!
 966 2014-05-11 16:46:10 <sipa> and the Tor address space!
 967 2014-05-11 16:46:13 dims has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 968 2014-05-11 16:46:18 <lmf> survic: That is what I thought, but many
 969 2014-05-11 16:46:23 <survic> I'm not sure people would like it if we made IPv4/v6 scanners flooding the internet
 970 2014-05-11 16:46:33 ThomasV has joined
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 972 2014-05-11 16:46:41 <lmf> Agree
 973 2014-05-11 16:47:05 <survic> if you really want manual discovery, you just ask someone on IRC for a single node address to get you bootstrapped. past that point you rely on nobody else.
 974 2014-05-11 16:47:11 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt
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 976 2014-05-11 16:48:55 <lmf> sipa: I found this https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin-seeder
 977 2014-05-11 16:48:59 <lmf> is this a bitcoin seeder?
 978 2014-05-11 16:49:09 <lmf> like a DNS server
 979 2014-05-11 16:49:14 <sipa> that's a crawler + dns server, yes
 980 2014-05-11 16:49:18 <sipa> the one i run
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 982 2014-05-11 16:50:45 <lmf> so if I was to run this on my computer and add my IP to the list of nodes in the bitcoin source code
 983 2014-05-11 16:51:04 <lmf> I would actually help discover nodes?
 984 2014-05-11 16:51:14 <sipa> yes
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 986 2014-05-11 16:51:32 <gmaxwell> Every node helps discover nodes.
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 988 2014-05-11 16:52:37 <lmf> sipa but what if this node, crawler was the first node. In that case where would it start crawling from
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 990 2014-05-11 16:53:27 <sipa> well it needs a starting point
 991 2014-05-11 16:53:31 iomn2l has joined
 992 2014-05-11 16:53:34 <iomn2l> gmaxwell is a dick
 993 2014-05-11 16:53:35 iomn2l has left ()
 994 2014-05-11 16:53:46 <sipa> bitcoin-seeder just has other seeders hardcoded to find one
 995 2014-05-11 16:54:02 <sipa> but that's not a problem: nodes themselves keep a database of known peers
 996 2014-05-11 16:54:18 <sipa> the network itself manages that; all you need is an entry point
 997 2014-05-11 16:54:28 <sipa> crawlers just speed things up a bit
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1022 2014-05-11 17:20:49 <Emzy> It is always talked about that you can't block bitcoin... But as I read hier: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Network "Through this system, everyone has a reasonably clear picture of which IPs are connected to the network at the moment. "
1023 2014-05-11 17:21:29 <Emzy> It seems that china can block bitcoin like they block Tor. By simply block all IP-Adresses that are nodes.
1024 2014-05-11 17:21:42 <Luke-Jr> Emzy: blocking bitcoin would be very trivial, at least today.
1025 2014-05-11 17:21:50 <survic> Emzy: yes, on a clearnet view Bitcoin is trivial to block. just kill connections to port 8333 and you're done.
1026 2014-05-11 17:22:12 <survic> do note that China struggles to block Tor.
1027 2014-05-11 17:22:24 ericmuys_ has joined
1028 2014-05-11 17:22:24 <andytoshi> ..and that you can run bitcoin over tor
1029 2014-05-11 17:22:24 <Emzy> ok, so it has to go the same path as Tor...
1030 2014-05-11 17:22:31 <Emzy> or just use tor
1031 2014-05-11 17:22:43 <Luke-Jr> the latter
1032 2014-05-11 17:22:51 <Emzy> survic: but with secred tor nodes.
1033 2014-05-11 17:22:55 ericmuyser has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1034 2014-05-11 17:22:57 <Emzy> secret
1035 2014-05-11 17:23:02 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin does not aim to be unblockable.
1036 2014-05-11 17:23:06 <Luke-Jr> that's a goal of the tor project
1037 2014-05-11 17:23:17 badhatter_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1038 2014-05-11 17:23:19 robonerd has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1039 2014-05-11 17:23:31 <Luke-Jr> no reason to reinvent the wheel
1040 2014-05-11 17:23:45 <survic> Emzy: the firewall of China is not really as bad as people say. VPN and Tor use in China is pretty universal. when you buy a PC in a store in china you select what evasion service you want to use.
1041 2014-05-11 17:23:52 <Luke-Jr> especially since Bitcoin only functions in a non-hostile environment in any case
1042 2014-05-11 17:24:02 <Luke-Jr> survic: lol!
1043 2014-05-11 17:24:25 <Emzy> Luke-Jr: but it is often over simlifyed that you can't block bitcoin
1044 2014-05-11 17:24:31 <Emcy_> no one ever worries that too much important stuff is reliant on tor?
1045 2014-05-11 17:24:51 <survic> what relies on Tor?
1046 2014-05-11 17:25:09 <sipa> it would be better if more important stuff relied on Tor!
1047 2014-05-11 17:25:16 <sipa> that meant that blocking it would be harder
1048 2014-05-11 17:25:19 <Luke-Jr> Emzy: to claim you can't block bitcoin is an outright lie IMO
1049 2014-05-11 17:25:43 <Luke-Jr> Emzy: even if you couldn't block Bitcoin technically, you could easily block it socially
1050 2014-05-11 17:25:44 <Emzy> ok
1051 2014-05-11 17:25:49 <Emcy_> never claimed that?
1052 2014-05-11 17:26:01 <Luke-Jr> also, Emcy_ and Emzy are confusing.
1053 2014-05-11 17:26:02 <Emzy> hi Emcy_ :)
1054 2014-05-11 17:26:02 <Emcy_> oh its that guy
1055 2014-05-11 17:26:07 <Emcy_> lol
1056 2014-05-11 17:26:14 <survic> oh wow, they're different people.
1057 2014-05-11 17:26:19 <Luke-Jr> especially since my IRC client gives them the same colour
1058 2014-05-11 17:26:19 <shesek> at least one of them has an "_", so its not the same length
1059 2014-05-11 17:26:19 <Emzy> yes
1060 2014-05-11 17:26:21 <survic> I didn't even notice, sorry.
1061 2014-05-11 17:26:21 <sipa> i never knew :o
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1063 2014-05-11 17:26:51 robonerd is now known as Guest526
1064 2014-05-11 17:26:58 <gmaxwell> it's pretty trivial to block bitcoin by itself, I dunno why someone would say that it wasn't.
1065 2014-05-11 17:27:01 <Emcy_> wow am i that generic an irc person....
1066 2014-05-11 17:27:16 <Luke-Jr> Emcy_: Emzy: maybe you ought to adopt a nick with your surname in it :P
1067 2014-05-11 17:27:19 <survic> Emcy_: you're that IRC person that's very hard to tab complete
1068 2014-05-11 17:27:31 <gmaxwell> blocking the software may not prevent you from using it— but thats true of all internet services, due to the existance of circumvention tools.
1069 2014-05-11 17:27:45 <Emzy> Luke-Jr: have that nick for over 10 years... so..
1070 2014-05-11 17:27:49 <Luke-Jr> XD
1071 2014-05-11 17:28:19 ganjafarmer has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1072 2014-05-11 17:28:43 <Emcy_> he uses a z so he must be my evil universe alter ego
1073 2014-05-11 17:29:33 <Emcy_> anyway, china could rub out bitcoin if it wanted to
1074 2014-05-11 17:29:36 <Luke-Jr> z is evil?
1075 2014-05-11 17:29:44 <Emcy_> its the US spelling
1076 2014-05-11 17:29:45 <Emcy_> so yes
1077 2014-05-11 17:29:45 <Luke-Jr> I took z to imply dozenal units
1078 2014-05-11 17:30:04 <Emzy> gmaxwell: so after all the idea with the satelit is a good one.
1079 2014-05-11 17:30:14 <Emzy> gmaxwell: to prevent blocking.
1080 2014-05-11 17:30:15 <Luke-Jr> Emzy: it won't stop blocking
1081 2014-05-11 17:30:28 pfallenop has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1082 2014-05-11 17:30:29 <Emcy_> china is even kicking tors ass, really
1083 2014-05-11 17:30:46 <Emcy_> they basically have to trade secret entry nodes on slips of paper
1084 2014-05-11 17:30:56 Guest526 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1085 2014-05-11 17:31:06 <Emcy_> and encapsulate in https
1086 2014-05-11 17:31:06 softwaremechanic has joined
1087 2014-05-11 17:31:15 <Emzy> Emcy_: but that works.
1088 2014-05-11 17:31:23 pfallenop has joined
1089 2014-05-11 17:31:29 <Emcy_> doesnt work if you dont have a hookup
1090 2014-05-11 17:31:38 <Emcy_> just like getting some nice burn
1091 2014-05-11 17:32:16 <survic> Emcy_: how do you think peer discovery works with drug dealers?
1092 2014-05-11 17:32:29 <shesek> Luke-Jr, it could... if equipment that could talk directly to the satellite were affordable and accessible to home users
1093 2014-05-11 17:32:34 <Emcy_> "yo this my boy mike, he cool."
1094 2014-05-11 17:32:36 <Emcy_> "aight"
1095 2014-05-11 17:32:38 jordandotdev has joined
1096 2014-05-11 17:32:40 <shesek> which is currently not
1097 2014-05-11 17:32:48 <Emzy> Luke-Jr: recieving the sattelit can't be blockt. the orher way can be blockt
1098 2014-05-11 17:33:35 robonerd- has joined
1099 2014-05-11 17:33:40 <Emcy_> shesek the sat is broadcast only
1100 2014-05-11 17:33:40 <Emzy> s/blockt/blocked/
1101 2014-05-11 17:33:43 <Emcy_> block hearders
1102 2014-05-11 17:33:58 <Emcy_> its a cubesat for christ sake
1103 2014-05-11 17:34:38 <Emcy_> dont expect telstar 1 or something
1104 2014-05-11 17:34:48 <Luke-Jr> Emzy: if you can get hardware to receive from it.
1105 2014-05-11 17:35:03 <Luke-Jr> Emzy: and again, even if you can TECHNICALLY get to bitcoin's network, you can't avoid social blocking
1106 2014-05-11 17:35:20 <Emzy> sdr are $15 and everyware...
1107 2014-05-11 17:35:37 <Luke-Jr> they are?
1108 2014-05-11 17:35:43 Emcy_ is now known as Emcy
1109 2014-05-11 17:35:48 <Luke-Jr> Emcy: noooooooooo
1110 2014-05-11 17:35:54 <Emcy> trolol
1111 2014-05-11 17:36:07 <Emcy> are we not different colours
1112 2014-05-11 17:36:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Emcy: your color didn't change
1113 2014-05-11 17:36:37 <Emzy> Luke-Jr: dvb sticks work
1114 2014-05-11 17:36:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|At least not here
1115 2014-05-11 17:36:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(With irccloud's algorithm)
1116 2014-05-11 17:36:56 <Emcy> irc nick colours are client side
1117 2014-05-11 17:37:00 softwaremechanic has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1118 2014-05-11 17:37:04 <Luke-Jr> Emcy: nope, you and Emzy have the same colour
1119 2014-05-11 17:37:30 <Emzy> I have them different.
1120 2014-05-11 17:37:57 <Emzy> the nick collision is bad :(
1121 2014-05-11 17:38:16 <Emcy> im not pulling a prince on this one guys....
1122 2014-05-11 17:38:53 <Emcy> everythng is always easier if i just stop talking lol
1123 2014-05-11 17:39:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Emcy: I know that
1124 2014-05-11 17:39:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|IRCCloud's algorithm has Emzy in pink
1125 2014-05-11 17:39:59 robonerd- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1126 2014-05-11 17:40:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And Emcy and Emcy_ both red
1127 2014-05-11 17:41:13 sidneyz has quit (Quit: sidneyz)
1128 2014-05-11 17:41:22 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1129 2014-05-11 17:43:26 ryanxcharles has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1130 2014-05-11 17:44:26 <Emzy> another question. If I connect to a peer, I also send out the blockchain to the peer if he has less blockchain as I?
1131 2014-05-11 17:45:19 <sipa> yes, though in practice that is unlikely
1132 2014-05-11 17:45:25 <gmaxwell> Emzy: the peer may request blocks from you that it doesn't have. It's pull, not push.
1133 2014-05-11 17:46:03 <Emzy> gmaxwell: ok
1134 2014-05-11 17:46:08 ConvivialMatt has quit (Quit: ConvivialMatt)
1135 2014-05-11 17:46:09 <sipa> it's request-what-do-you-have, announce-what-you-have, ask-what-you-need, send-it
1136 2014-05-11 17:46:12 <sipa> :)
1137 2014-05-11 17:46:17 <Emzy> sipa: why unlikely?
1138 2014-05-11 17:46:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: ask-for-what-you-need, you mean?
1139 2014-05-11 17:46:40 <sipa> because nodes don't advertize themselves until they have caught up
1140 2014-05-11 17:46:52 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: ").fixGrammar();
1141 2014-05-11 17:46:52 <Emzy> sipa: ah, ok
1142 2014-05-11 17:47:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: hm?
1143 2014-05-11 17:47:22 <sipa> never mind; you're right
1144 2014-05-11 17:47:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ask-what-you-need implies asking, "what do you need?"
1145 2014-05-11 17:48:52 <legerde> Greetings, I am trying to decode a transaction using json-rpc with bitcoind.   how do I get from a ScriptSig to an account number?
1146 2014-05-11 17:49:21 ryanxcharles has joined
1147 2014-05-11 17:49:21 <Emzy> so we relay for the blockchain on nodes that can be connected..
1148 2014-05-11 17:49:21 <legerde> Each scriptsig has a transaction id..  Do I need to chase that?
1149 2014-05-11 17:49:25 <survic> what's an account number?
1150 2014-05-11 17:49:46 <legerde> an address....
1151 2014-05-11 17:50:01 <sipa> an address is a shorthand for a scriptPubKey
1152 2014-05-11 17:50:16 <sipa> you can't reliably go from scriptSig to address
1153 2014-05-11 17:50:26 <legerde> How do I convert between the two?   If I have a scriptSig, can I get to an addres?
1154 2014-05-11 17:50:41 <gmaxwell> legerde: What are you trying to accomplish?
1155 2014-05-11 17:50:58 <legerde> Hmm...  blockchain.info seems to do it:   Im looking at this transaction with python to increase my understanding:  https://blockchain.info/tx/11e1880ed3c9c864db91dfd28ab1fab97abaada033ace30e31902ada8e751545
1156 2014-05-11 17:51:06 <survic> addresses are ultimately one way. you can go from pubkey to address but not address to pubkey.
1157 2014-05-11 17:51:18 <legerde> It shows 6 addresses feeding 1 address.
1158 2014-05-11 17:51:24 <sipa> blockchain.info confuses people by doing that
1159 2014-05-11 17:51:33 <legerde> Hmm. ok
1160 2014-05-11 17:51:37 <sipa> they show the address the consumed inputs were previously sent to
1161 2014-05-11 17:51:46 <sipa> which is almost always useless information
1162 2014-05-11 17:51:56 <sipa> unless you're the sender yourself
1163 2014-05-11 17:52:13 <legerde> gmaxwell:   I am trying to receive some bitcoin and then return the bitcoin in a second transaction
1164 2014-05-11 17:52:19 <sipa> you cannot
1165 2014-05-11 17:52:26 <sipa> if you need a refund address, ask for one
1166 2014-05-11 17:52:37 <legerde> I am working on an automated situation.
1167 2014-05-11 17:52:41 <sipa> bitcoin has no concept of "from addresses"
1168 2014-05-11 17:52:53 <sipa> then automate asking for a refund address, or use the payment protocol
1169 2014-05-11 17:52:56 lalopalo has joined
1170 2014-05-11 17:53:17 santoscork has joined
1171 2014-05-11 17:53:22 <sipa> which has built-in transmission of refund addresses
1172 2014-05-11 17:53:44 <survic> (sending BACK to a "from" address will cause the person to lose their money fairly often)
1173 2014-05-11 17:54:02 <survic> not always, you can find cases where it won't, but it is not something you want to do.
1174 2014-05-11 17:54:05 <legerde> Well.. .Let me be more explicit. :)   Lets say I have a 50/50 bet system and someone makes a bet, then i want to pay out the winnings.    Can that be automated from received transaction information?
1175 2014-05-11 17:54:12 <sipa> no
1176 2014-05-11 17:54:19 <sipa> not reliably
1177 2014-05-11 17:54:20 <survic> no
1178 2014-05-11 17:54:21 robonerd- has joined
1179 2014-05-11 17:54:24 <legerde> :(
1180 2014-05-11 17:54:32 <sipa> not without making assumptions about what software the sender is using
1181 2014-05-11 17:54:47 <sipa> and it is not compatible with some future developments
1182 2014-05-11 17:54:53 <tommygunner> check the topic :P
1183 2014-05-11 17:55:12 <legerde> How does https://updown.bt/ do it?
1184 2014-05-11 17:55:18 <Luke-Jr> legerde: only if "received transaction information" came over the payment protocol
1185 2014-05-11 17:55:29 <OneMiner> v0.9.1.0-g026a939-beta (64-bit)   doesn't seem to close properly. Windows 7 64 bit. I command the program to close and a small window pops up saying not to shut down until the box goes away, except it never does. This seems to happen every time.
1186 2014-05-11 17:55:36 <survic> legerde: it probably guesses and loses people's money a lot of the time.
1187 2014-05-11 17:55:42 <Luke-Jr> legerde: that's broken by design, and also inherently harmful to bitcoin; don't imitate it
1188 2014-05-11 17:55:43 <sipa> by guessing, and unnecessarily restricting software people can use and making development harder by doing so
1189 2014-05-11 17:56:07 <legerde> I see.. So I would need to explicitly ask for payout addresses.
1190 2014-05-11 17:56:10 <petertodd> legerde: for instance, dark wallet does coinjoin by default on every transaction sent, which means you'll often be sent funds where the sender does not control some of the input private keys. similarly, if anyone on easy wallet or coinbase sends you funds
1191 2014-05-11 17:56:32 <sipa> legerde: or use the payment protocol
1192 2014-05-11 17:56:33 ryanxcharles has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1193 2014-05-11 17:57:01 <sipa> petertodd: unfortunately, coinbase encourages that behaviour by keeping coins separate
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1197 2014-05-11 17:57:28 <Luke-Jr> legerde: generally, you want to ask for a payout address when they go to your website, then give them a deposit address; let them play until they're bored, then send the remaining balance to the payout address they gave
1198 2014-05-11 17:57:28 <legerde> petertodd: thank you.     <everyone>   Thank you..  I learn by diving into the dteails..  this is helping me understand quite a bit.   I will research the payment protocol.   Thank you all so much
1199 2014-05-11 17:57:47 <survic> sipa: does it? how do they do their cold storage then?
1200 2014-05-11 17:57:55 <sipa> survic: no clue
1201 2014-05-11 17:58:02 <sipa> i never used coinbase myself
1202 2014-05-11 17:58:03 <petertodd> sipa: last I checked they changed that in some cases
1203 2014-05-11 17:58:08 <Luke-Jr> legerde: it's improper to use a transaction for every action (bet, game, etc)
1204 2014-05-11 17:58:12 <survic> they say they keep 97% of the coins offline or something like that. they can't be keeping them seperate
1205 2014-05-11 17:58:21 <gmaxwell> survic: you really don't want to know.
1206 2014-05-11 17:58:38 <sipa> survic: if they explicitly move the coins they don't need to remain separate
1207 2014-05-11 17:58:45 <sipa> but i don't really care
1208 2014-05-11 17:58:48 <Luke-Jr> survic: when Coinbase sends a transaction, they first send the funds to an address associated to the account in question..
1209 2014-05-11 17:58:50 <survic> gmaxwell: ...
1210 2014-05-11 17:58:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: uh.
1211 2014-05-11 17:58:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wtf?
1212 2014-05-11 17:58:59 <gmaxwell> (okay, maybe you do... hint: why use a single transaction to make a payment when you can use a minimum of two, four if you count in and out again)
1213 2014-05-11 17:59:02 <Luke-Jr> yeah, it's totally stupid
1214 2014-05-11 17:59:04 <survic> gmaxwell: don't tell me, they're doing something ridiculously stupid?
1215 2014-05-11 17:59:23 <sipa> w00t privacy
1216 2014-05-11 17:59:25 ThomasV has joined
1217 2014-05-11 17:59:26 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|checks the date
1218 2014-05-11 17:59:26 <petertodd> survic: reimplementing bitcoin core in ruby was just the start
1219 2014-05-11 17:59:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, about 41 days too late
1220 2014-05-11 17:59:58 <survic> gmaxwell: so they "fill" the "from" address every time you want to make an outgoing transaction?
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1222 2014-05-11 18:00:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Do they really do that?
1223 2014-05-11 18:00:18 <petertodd> survic: last I checked they seemed to have stopped doing that, but yeah, for awhile they were
1224 2014-05-11 18:00:33 <survic> wow that's fucking stupid. who gave them that idea?
1225 2014-05-11 18:00:46 <petertodd> survic: probably to bend over backwards and make satoshidice work...
1226 2014-05-11 18:00:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(And friends)
1227 2014-05-11 18:00:59 <survic> ...
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1229 2014-05-11 18:01:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|They must have made it a more general refund address thing
1230 2014-05-11 18:01:38 <survic> that's mind blowing. bet it does wonders for the privacy of the users.
1231 2014-05-11 18:01:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If it were specific to SatoshiDice, there are several better ways
1232 2014-05-11 18:02:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|One, they could just notice transactions to SD
1233 2014-05-11 18:02:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And automatically credit the spend of that transaction to the orginator
1234 2014-05-11 18:02:17 <petertodd> survic: indeed, but I doubt privacy is high on their priorities
1235 2014-05-11 18:02:20 <survic> or just blacklist known coin addresses.
1236 2014-05-11 18:02:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Originator*
1237 2014-05-11 18:02:24 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: you forget SD aims to flood bitcoin out of existence
1238 2014-05-11 18:02:41 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: they have no reason to adopt things to be more efficient
1239 2014-05-11 18:02:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or, they could use the fact that SD lets you designate a payout address
1240 2014-05-11 18:02:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: not SD
1241 2014-05-11 18:02:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Coinbase
1242 2014-05-11 18:03:20 <survic> petertodd: bitcoin ruby is the one with the consensus probems right?
1243 2014-05-11 18:03:39 <petertodd> survic: horrible, horrible, consensus problems
1244 2014-05-11 18:03:50 <survic> figures.
1245 2014-05-11 18:03:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Coinbase could notice SD transactions and track them, or add an output to a new address of (IIRC) 0.00012345 or something, if they were specifically trying to be SD-friendly
1246 2014-05-11 18:04:23 <sipa> i'm sure they just want to be broken-auto-refunding-site-compatible
1247 2014-05-11 18:04:31 <survic> so betwen blockchain.info and coinbase, the vast majority of user wallets are stored in completely fucked up systems that are broken to the core?
1248 2014-05-11 18:04:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So it's probably not *just* SD, but rather SD and friends
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1251 2014-05-11 18:04:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|survic: well, bc.i isn't _all_ bad
1252 2014-05-11 18:05:09 <survic> michagogo|cloud: name a good thing about it.
1253 2014-05-11 18:05:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It can be useful iff you know what you're looking at
1254 2014-05-11 18:05:43 <survic> michagogo|cloud: their web wallet service is anything but useful. where's the change addresses? what's with the coinjoin clone that isn't actually coinjoin at all?
1255 2014-05-11 18:05:56 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1256 2014-05-11 18:06:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|survic: oh, I know nothing about their webwallet
1257 2014-05-11 18:06:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I don't use that
1258 2014-05-11 18:06:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is it that bad?
1259 2014-05-11 18:06:45 <petertodd> survic: coinjoin clone? huh?
1260 2014-05-11 18:06:49 <survic> michagogo|cloud: it's the web wallet that broke their RNG completely and exposed users private keys :)
1261 2014-05-11 18:07:25 <survic> michagogo|cloud: didn't realise webworkers didn't have a function they checked for, so the RNG was essentially turned off for signing.
1262 2014-05-11 18:07:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|survic: -_-
1263 2014-05-11 18:08:29 <survic> petertodd: sharedcoin.com is blockchain.info's sort-of coinjoin. it's a bit like coinjoin, but only really mixes funds with blockchain.info's own wallets because there's not enough volume to make it instant.
1264 2014-05-11 18:08:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I mean, I've only used the bc.i wallet for one thing
1265 2014-05-11 18:09:03 <petertodd> survic: actually piuk has told me that ~1/4 or something of cj's done on their platform involve more than one user
1266 2014-05-11 18:09:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Logging into to export the privkey to sweep elsewhere when I got given a bc.i wallet identifier and password as payment
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1268 2014-05-11 18:09:28 <petertodd> survic: anyway, mixing funds with bc.i's own wallets is perfectly fine so long as the volume of user's mixing with it is high (and they aren't selling logs!)
1269 2014-05-11 18:09:37 Eglerion has joined
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1272 2014-05-11 18:11:03 <shesek> ... or getting (secret) subpoenas
1273 2014-05-11 18:11:10 <survic> petertodd: it's pontless anyway, if you find a sharedcoin transaction you'll notice that the values give away which party is which. the log thing is another matter, it's all behind cloudflare so many parties have the logs anyway.
1274 2014-05-11 18:11:36 <shesek> survic, they aren't using fixed values or something?
1275 2014-05-11 18:12:05 <petertodd> survic: I've looked at that; I don't see how the values give away anything. bc.i delibrately includes values identical to the ones you use
1276 2014-05-11 18:12:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: I guess they don't have a warrant canary?
1277 2014-05-11 18:12:39 <petertodd> survic: it's a slightly more sophisticated version of how dark wallet's coinjoin works
1278 2014-05-11 18:12:54 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, not that I know of.... and the legality of doing that is somewhat questioned
1279 2014-05-11 18:13:02 <gmaxwell> petertodd: wrt isforksafe, if you do that patch set it up as a split not a replace, so we can take the patch without the debate if its a good idea to go ahead and remove IsStandard.
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1281 2014-05-11 18:13:09 <survic> petertodd: it's possible they've changed things from when I first tried it out, but for me it just used random values that had nothing to do with my inputs. it was easy to see which were theirs and mine just from the blockchain.
1282 2014-05-11 18:13:13 <shesek> at least that's what my lawyer told me
1283 2014-05-11 18:13:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: well, it all boils down to, can you be legally compelled to lie
1284 2014-05-11 18:13:27 KawalGrover has joined
1285 2014-05-11 18:13:38 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: Yes.
1286 2014-05-11 18:13:49 <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh, you mean have IsForkSafe() as a separate function? that's what I was thinking too, as I'd make it apply to only P2SH, at least at first
1287 2014-05-11 18:14:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: :-/
1288 2014-05-11 18:14:30 <petertodd> survic: try it out again; I've looked into it a lot and see no issues beyond the obvious one that they could be keeping logs.
1289 2014-05-11 18:14:47 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, gmaxwell, I dunno... forcing you not to remove a permanent message saying "we never got any secret subpoena" is one thing
1290 2014-05-11 18:14:56 <survic> michagogo|cloud: gmaxwell: shesek: they sort of have made a statement about that. I'd have to find it, but ver or piuk mentioned at one point that they would "shut down" rather than comply with a backdoor request.
1291 2014-05-11 18:14:57 <shesek> forcing you to actively lie is a different matter
1292 2014-05-11 18:15:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well, you wouldn't make it a permanent message
1293 2014-05-11 18:15:17 Einewton has joined
1294 2014-05-11 18:15:23 <shesek> a weekly tweet or something?
1295 2014-05-11 18:15:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You'd post every week (or day, or hour, or month, or whatever)
1296 2014-05-11 18:16:14 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, even if they can't force you to lie, they can claim that getting yourself into that position is obstructions of justice
1297 2014-05-11 18:16:23 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I believe all current IsStandard would pass IsForkSafe no?  So what I was thinking was just making the test call one than the other. (thus things like luke's modifcations which replace IsStandard would just leave IsForkSafe alone)
1298 2014-05-11 18:16:23 <shesek> (well, maybe... I dunno)
1299 2014-05-11 18:16:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I mean, even if you can be forced to lie, I guess you could theoretically get around it by making each one different, with a secret marker that you distribute to a bunch of trusted people to blow the whistle
1300 2014-05-11 18:16:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But that could get you in trouble
1301 2014-05-11 18:17:04 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, they should, or at least, where they don't it's planned additions to IsStandard() anyway
1302 2014-05-11 18:17:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: well, I mean, is there any justice to obstruct before they do something?
1303 2014-05-11 18:17:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Probably kinda off topic here...)
1304 2014-05-11 18:17:41 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, I dunno... but I feel like we're a little off-topic and gmaxwell and petertodd are trying to have an on-topic conversation
1305 2014-05-11 18:17:52 <shesek> right... was just going to write that ^
1306 2014-05-11 18:18:37 <survic> petertodd: guess I'll have to give it a go again, but if they are enforcing same-size outputs I find the 1/4 number a bit hard to believe. last time I checked it was just a field you could type the output size into.
1307 2014-05-11 18:18:39 <petertodd> shesek: anyway, the on-topic thing is that neither send shared or darkwallet are yet decentralized, but that's just an indication that they are still alpha software, not that they're bad
1308 2014-05-11 18:19:42 <shesek> the jump from a centralized service to a decentralized one is non-trivial at all
1309 2014-05-11 18:19:58 <petertodd> survic: remember that change is an output - darkwallet has a notion of opportunistic mixers, so usually you'll be paired with someone just sitting around with coins that they want mixed. similarly with bc.i's shared send, that "opportunistic mixer" is bc.i themselves, and other users by proxy
1310 2014-05-11 18:19:59 <shesek> and I don't think that they're "bad", never said that
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1317 2014-05-11 18:21:12 <petertodd> shesek: it's actually more incremental than you'd expect: centralized services still need anti-dos strategies, and the best ones are the same strategies that apply to decentralized services, so you get central-easy-to-dos -> centralized not easy to dos -> decentralized
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1322 2014-05-11 18:22:13 <shesek> the anti-dos strategies for a centralized service are much easier though... you have better data to work with
1323 2014-05-11 18:22:24 <shesek> you get a full view of everything going on
1324 2014-05-11 18:22:38 <petertodd> I'm told darkwallet is actually pretty far down that line; the central servers are used as a communications channel rather than as an active arranger of transactions
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1326 2014-05-11 18:23:02 dub has joined
1327 2014-05-11 18:23:12 <survic> petertodd: I'm not convinced by it, but I'll give it a fresh go at some point.
1328 2014-05-11 18:23:29 <petertodd> shesek: yes, but those advanced strategies are actually pretty complex! strategies based on simpler coin age and what not are a lot less work
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1334 2014-05-11 18:25:49 <petertodd> gmaxwell: thought: NODE_NONSTANDARD service bit?
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1338 2014-05-11 18:29:14 dub has joined
1339 2014-05-11 18:29:51 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: define NODE_NONSTANDARD
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1343 2014-05-11 18:30:39 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: consider that every node should have its own policy under ideal conditions
1344 2014-05-11 18:30:54 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: does not apply IsStandard(), does apply IsSoftForkSafe()
1345 2014-05-11 18:31:07 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: that's a policy matter
1346 2014-05-11 18:31:17 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: going to far with that means transactions don't actually propagate reliably
1347 2014-05-11 18:31:44 <petertodd> note that NODE_NONSTANDARD does *not* preclude changing your local miner acceptance policy
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1349 2014-05-11 18:32:07 <sipa> i don't see why you need to indicate to peers that you're using some different policy?
1350 2014-05-11 18:32:34 <gmaxwell> yuck
1351 2014-05-11 18:33:26 <gmaxwell> I worry that would just increase the misconception that the bitcoin core default policy (of what version) were actually unform in the network already or that it ought to be.
1352 2014-05-11 18:33:28 <petertodd> sipa: so that peering can be done preferentially and the anti-dos theory of "tx fees get paid" actually works because non-std accepting nodes get their tx's to miners who are similarly accepting
1353 2014-05-11 18:33:32 <Luke-Jr> reject messages should be sufficient
1354 2014-05-11 18:33:57 <petertodd> sipa: same thinging that lead to NODE_REPLACEBYFEE, which technically is highly succesfull
1355 2014-05-11 18:34:00 <petertodd> *thinking
1356 2014-05-11 18:34:23 <Luke-Jr> if all your current peers reject your transaction, connect to more, and keep track of which ones accept the most of yours
1357 2014-05-11 18:34:58 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: I've seen no BIP for a NODE_REPLACEBYFEE
1358 2014-05-11 18:35:31 <sipa> i have never heard about it
1359 2014-05-11 18:35:51 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: I just semi-arbitrarily picked a bit range in the high part of the service bits thing and said "here be experimental stuff" - it's not meant to be a bip or anything formal yet
1360 2014-05-11 18:36:19 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: what I should do is write a bip defining how to do experimental service bits more than anything
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1362 2014-05-11 18:37:11 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: anyway, re: "try nodes until your tx goes through" - that still doesn't capture the spirit of it, if any of those nodes aren't miners, you're tx still gets stuck. softforksafe is meant to be a lowest common denominator of what people might accept
1363 2014-05-11 18:37:15 <petertodd> s/accept/mine/
1364 2014-05-11 18:37:58 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: oh well, that's what replacement is for
1365 2014-05-11 18:38:30 mappum has joined
1366 2014-05-11 18:38:35 <Luke-Jr> (and yes, we do have "replacement" universally today in the case of transactions that were rejected from the mempool..)
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1368 2014-05-11 18:39:14 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: huh? what do you mean? I'm saying "I want to do a non-standard transaction, and I want to get it mined", replacement doesn't cover that use-case
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1371 2014-05-11 18:40:19 <gmaxwell> but accepts non-standard does not mean "accepts any and all conceivable nonstandard" ... so it's not really that useful, and just furthers the misconception that there is, can be, or should be a singular defintion of non-standard.
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1373 2014-05-11 18:40:54 <petertodd> gmaxwell: like I say, soft-fork-safe can probably be pretty close to that singular definition
1374 2014-05-11 18:41:02 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: keep in mind we have the free relay network since 2011
1375 2014-05-11 18:41:23 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: during which 30 minute periods has it actually worked. :P
1376 2014-05-11 18:41:24 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: yes, and it's unusable because it's a manual thing - notably the free relay network doesn't get tx's to eligius
1377 2014-05-11 18:41:43 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: it should; if not, pester wizkid057 ;P
1378 2014-05-11 18:41:45 <sipa> petertodd: we can encourage converging to soft-fork-safe as standardness, but still i think nodes should be free to add any policy they like
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1380 2014-05-11 18:42:26 <sipa> there's no way you're going to capture that in service bits, plus nodes who do probably have good reason not to adverize it anyway
1381 2014-05-11 18:42:42 <petertodd> sipa: yes they should, I'm proposing a service bit which is meant to tell people "I don't have anything beyond lowest-common-denominator policy, so you can use me to get to the people with policy that is closer to what you want"
1382 2014-05-11 18:43:00 <gmaxwell> lets just worry about converging to softforksafe as standardness and not gunk up stuff with more misconception fuel.
1383 2014-05-11 18:43:29 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: nobody should ever have nothing beyond lowest-common-denominator policy.
1384 2014-05-11 18:43:41 <petertodd> sipa: that they have reason *not* to advertise it is exactly the point of the service bit - e.g. with replace-by-fee there's a bit of hashing power mining it, not advertising it for dos reasons, and letting the people who are willing to advertise it deal with that
1385 2014-05-11 18:43:51 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: we're talking about relaying here, not mining
1386 2014-05-11 18:43:55 <Luke-Jr> ok
1387 2014-05-11 18:44:29 <Luke-Jr> so what happens when LCD changes? :>
1388 2014-05-11 18:44:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ok, compromise, add in node_nonstandard as a temporary thing
1389 2014-05-11 18:44:52 <Luke-Jr> actually
1390 2014-05-11 18:44:56 <Luke-Jr> this LCD thing won't help
1391 2014-05-11 18:45:02 <Luke-Jr> because as you say, miners won't be LCD
1392 2014-05-11 18:45:11 <Luke-Jr> so they won't necessarily peer with LCD nodes
1393 2014-05-11 18:45:19 <sipa> either we agree that LCD should be standardness, and change to it
1394 2014-05-11 18:45:50 <sipa> or not, and don't
1395 2014-05-11 18:46:19 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: point is they can choose to do so easily without any central authorities running things like relay networks (particularly given how easy it is to attack those things)
1396 2014-05-11 18:46:20 <sipa> i really dislike using service bits to indicate policy
1397 2014-05-11 18:46:46 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: as if attackign bitcoin is hard ;p
1398 2014-05-11 18:47:40 <gmaxwell> would be better to have a more flexible mechenism to communicate relay policy... would reduce wasted bandwidth in realying stuff peers won't accept.
1399 2014-05-11 18:48:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, which is quite tricky given the huge varieties of policy possible
1400 2014-05-11 18:48:09 <robonerd-> mechanism
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1403 2014-05-11 18:53:29 <Eliel_> yes, it'd be neat if you could share a function that the other node can use to check if it's worth the effort of sending a transaction to you at all.
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1406 2014-05-11 18:54:36 <Eliel_> (not to mention a PITA to make secure)
1407 2014-05-11 18:55:16 <sipa> just send something with the complexity of the ackermann function
1408 2014-05-11 18:55:56 <sipa> certainly more geeky than just sending an infinite loop
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1411 2014-05-11 18:56:00 <gmaxwell> some way to communicate thresholds on priority/fees below which you're not interested, may be interesting.
1412 2014-05-11 18:56:28 Adrao has joined
1413 2014-05-11 18:56:49 Horus__ has joined
1414 2014-05-11 18:57:05 <Horus__> Woah, this place does exist lol, hows everyone?
1415 2014-05-11 18:58:07 <sipa> such lol
1416 2014-05-11 18:58:13 <Luke-Jr> Horus__: it does exist, but it isn't a small-talk discussion channel; strictly for bitcoin development (many read the logs, and don't want to sift through small talk)
1417 2014-05-11 18:58:38 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: the very definition of "priority" is policy ;)
1418 2014-05-11 18:59:02 <Luke-Jr> [18:50:50] <Eliel_> yes, it'd be neat if you could share a function that the other node can use to check if it's worth the effort of sending a transaction to you at all. <-- well, we DO already have a scripting language <.<
1419 2014-05-11 18:59:15 <Horus__> Security ever discussed here? Im a cryptsy security admin.
1420 2014-05-11 18:59:20 <Horus__> if not, sorry, ill bugger off lol
1421 2014-05-11 18:59:31 <Luke-Jr> Horus__: only if it's directly related to bitcoin
1422 2014-05-11 18:59:59 <Horus__> Awesome :) Thanks for heads up and giving me run down of rules ;)
1423 2014-05-11 19:00:30 <Eliel_> Luke-Jr: yes, scripting language with most features turned off to avoid security issues :P
1424 2014-05-11 19:00:55 <Luke-Jr> let's make Script 2.0 be an embedded Perl interpreter!
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1426 2014-05-11 19:01:18 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: prior to quiting comp-sci and going to art school I had a summer job as a Perl programmer
1427 2014-05-11 19:01:33 <sipa> write-only languages are fun
1428 2014-05-11 19:01:49 <sipa> at least you never have the illusion to be doing something worthwhile
1429 2014-05-11 19:02:15 <Luke-Jr> sipa: Perl is readable, as long as you understand it.
1430 2014-05-11 19:02:25 <Eliel_> Luke-Jr: My vote would be haskell with the standard libraries replaced with a bitcoin specific library ;)
1431 2014-05-11 19:02:30 <Luke-Jr> but now we're confusing Horus__ by being totally off-topic
1432 2014-05-11 19:02:31 <Luke-Jr> lol
1433 2014-05-11 19:02:41 <Horus__> tsall good ;)
1434 2014-05-11 19:03:23 <Horus__> Im gonna pop out and pop back in later. Thanks for the dev work on btc guys ;)  keep on rockin
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1444 2014-05-11 19:14:00 <indutny> hey people!
1445 2014-05-11 19:14:16 <indutny> Just shared it on #bitcoin and people recommended me to post it here as well
1446 2014-05-11 19:14:17 <indutny> https://github.com/indutny/bthread
1447 2014-05-11 19:14:25 <indutny> Thread messaging and block posting via bitcoin blockchain
1448 2014-05-11 19:14:39 <indutny> does commenting through money transfer to post authors
1449 2014-05-11 19:14:45 <indutny> what do you think?
1450 2014-05-11 19:14:56 <sipa> i consider it abuse
1451 2014-05-11 19:15:06 <Emcy> i think youre trying to sink bitcoin
1452 2014-05-11 19:15:31 <indutny> quite friendly response
1453 2014-05-11 19:15:40 <indutny> but I think it is appropriate use of it
1454 2014-05-11 19:15:48 <sipa> what makes you think the bitcoin protocol (a very expensive, unreliable, slow transport system) is appropriate?
1455 2014-05-11 19:16:06 <Emcy> fuck it, time to raise the dust limit again
1456 2014-05-11 19:16:14 <survic> it's really not. the expense of storing your messages until the end of times is much greater than any value gained.
1457 2014-05-11 19:16:42 <indutny> Emcy: that doesn't matter
1458 2014-05-11 19:16:45 <gwillen> indutny: the advice to come to bitcoin-dev with that was not serious, it was a joke at your expense by survic. Sorry.
1459 2014-05-11 19:16:47 <sipa> by _every_ full node
1460 2014-05-11 19:17:12 <sipa> _forever_
1461 2014-05-11 19:17:14 <Emcy> hopefully all this crap goes away if/when txn fee get super expensive proportionally
1462 2014-05-11 19:17:14 <survic> gwillen: joke? it was a prompt to prove that I'm not alone in thinking it was a bad idea.
1463 2014-05-11 19:17:16 <gwillen> indutny: It is generally understood that there is a consensus on not storing large amounts of information in the blockchain
1464 2014-05-11 19:17:31 <indutny> who said that I'm going to store a lot of info
1465 2014-05-11 19:17:36 <indutny> I'm using gzip compressed data
1466 2014-05-11 19:17:44 <indutny> and it is generally 100-200 bytes per post
1467 2014-05-11 19:17:51 <indutny> in rare cases it goes up to 1kb
1468 2014-05-11 19:17:53 <sipa> i consider 1 byte a byte too much
1469 2014-05-11 19:18:05 <indutny> sipa: ok, you better not allow people to send money at all then
1470 2014-05-11 19:18:10 <sipa> the bitcoin blockchain is not a general-prupose data storage system
1471 2014-05-11 19:18:12 <survic> indutny: that's huge. we have a system built around seqqzing as much data as we can in a few bytes.
1472 2014-05-11 19:18:17 <indutny> I think that eventually block chain compaction will be needed
1473 2014-05-11 19:18:23 <petertodd> indutny: I've got nothing against what you're doing myself, but fwiw if all you want is censorship resistance, and it's ok if detecting and circumventing censorship can take some time, hybrid models work better
1474 2014-05-11 19:18:34 <Emcy> why dont you jsut use a sidechain for this?
1475 2014-05-11 19:18:47 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1476 2014-05-11 19:18:58 <indutny> Emcy: I could, and perhaps I would eventually
1477 2014-05-11 19:19:05 <indutny> it is just a PoC
1478 2014-05-11 19:19:07 <sipa> no point in using a side-chain even - you don't need globally consistent ordering
1479 2014-05-11 19:19:10 <indutny> to see if it works for people
1480 2014-05-11 19:19:21 <sipa> use a DHT for all i care
1481 2014-05-11 19:19:26 <Emcy> so just......bitmessage then
1482 2014-05-11 19:19:28 <indutny> its just a matter of giving money to post authors
1483 2014-05-11 19:19:34 <petertodd> indutny: basically it's much cheaper to usually put the messages on a sidechain, occasionally commit on the blockchain, and fall back to the blockchain when/if censorship is being detected. (DHT's aren't censorship resistant remember)
1484 2014-05-11 19:19:52 <survic> indutny: there's no reason for storing it in the block chain then. make a clone of tumblr and add bitcoin addresses at the bottom of the posts.
1485 2014-05-11 19:19:58 <petertodd> sipa: blockchains do more than just globally consistent ordering
1486 2014-05-11 19:20:02 <sipa> petertodd: i know
1487 2014-05-11 19:20:05 MiningBuddy has joined
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1489 2014-05-11 19:20:05 MiningBuddy has joined
1490 2014-05-11 19:20:15 <petertodd> sipa: other people reading this chat log don't
1491 2014-05-11 19:20:28 <sipa> but i don't think that what indutny is after
1492 2014-05-11 19:20:48 <sipa> like so many before, he falls to the "blockchains are awesome, let's use them for everything" trap
1493 2014-05-11 19:21:12 <petertodd> sipa: he don't quite know what he is after, but I know what he should be after, and blockchains make a lot of sense in that application space
1494 2014-05-11 19:21:28 <sipa> i will still consider it abuse
1495 2014-05-11 19:21:28 <indutny> :)
1496 2014-05-11 19:21:47 <indutny> it is absolutely looking like a normal transaction
1497 2014-05-11 19:21:52 <petertodd> indutny: anyway, yeah, define your attackers and think through what they can do. a good start is to ask what happens when someone sybil attacks the bitmessage network - can you detect that at all?
1498 2014-05-11 19:21:53 <sipa> that's even worse
1499 2014-05-11 19:21:54 <indutny> if you wish to limit number of bytes stored - raise the fee
1500 2014-05-11 19:22:18 <indutny> it wouldn't make sense to store blog posts if the fee will be 1000000 satoshi
1501 2014-05-11 19:22:20 <indutny> but who will pay it?
1502 2014-05-11 19:22:23 <petertodd> indutny: the *minimum* fee is currently set in bitcoin core, actual fees to get mined are already a supply/demand marketplace
1503 2014-05-11 19:22:49 <sipa> indutny: fees will eventually be set by miners, which are unfortunately not necessarily those who care about the utility of the blockchain as currency
1504 2014-05-11 19:23:03 <sipa> imho the largest incentive flaw in bitcoin
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1506 2014-05-11 19:23:17 <indutny> ok, so as far as this is accepted by miners
1507 2014-05-11 19:23:24 <indutny> I consider my actions absolutely correct
1508 2014-05-11 19:23:31 <sipa> i consider bitcoin doomed in that case
1509 2014-05-11 19:23:39 <indutny> especially taking in account that my app won't be used by much people
1510 2014-05-11 19:23:42 sipa has left ()
1511 2014-05-11 19:23:43 <indutny> I'm quite sure
1512 2014-05-11 19:26:11 <CheckDavid> Why is it a flaw?
1513 2014-05-11 19:26:15 <Emcy> interesting sometimes to watch a tragedy of the commons play out before youre very eyes
1514 2014-05-11 19:26:34 <indutny> anyone wants to try it anyway?
1515 2014-05-11 19:26:46 <petertodd> indutny: I gotta run, but I'll give it a try later on a VM
1516 2014-05-11 19:27:06 <petertodd> indutny: does it work in conjunction with a local bitcoind?
1517 2014-05-11 19:27:47 <indutny> petertodd: nope
1518 2014-05-11 19:27:52 <petertodd> indutny: oh good, even better
1519 2014-05-11 19:27:54 <indutny> petertodd: it connects to directly to network
1520 2014-05-11 19:28:04 <indutny> you'll need to have node.js
1521 2014-05-11 19:28:34 <petertodd> indutny: you using bloom filters to find posts easily?
1522 2014-05-11 19:28:40 <indutny> yep
1523 2014-05-11 19:28:58 <indutny> going to write chrome app using the same core js library
1524 2014-05-11 19:29:06 <indutny> it is already in works
1525 2014-05-11 19:29:40 <petertodd> indutny: smart - you might want to consider fuzzy brute-forced near matches too for censorship resistance, see my closely related prefix-filter ideas for stealth addresses
1526 2014-05-11 19:29:43 <petertodd> indutny: later
1527 2014-05-11 19:29:58 <indutny> petertodd: yeah, may be later
1528 2014-05-11 19:30:01 <indutny> petertodd: thanks
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1530 2014-05-11 19:32:11 <Emcy> any one else a bit confused why peter would not think this is a bad thing
1531 2014-05-11 19:32:19 <Emcy> the guy who made the keep bitcoin decentralised video
1532 2014-05-11 19:32:31 <survic> Emcy: isn't he the one paid not care?
1533 2014-05-11 19:32:36 <survic> *not to
1534 2014-05-11 19:32:53 <Emcy> paid? i dont know?
1535 2014-05-11 19:33:09 <petertodd> Emcy: it is a bad thing, but it deserves better solutions than top-down "don't do that!" bs
1536 2014-05-11 19:33:17 <petertodd> Emcy: which is what I'm getting paid to solve
1537 2014-05-11 19:33:23 <petertodd> Emcy: e.g. tree-chains work
1538 2014-05-11 19:33:27 sidneyz has quit (Quit: sidneyz)
1539 2014-05-11 19:33:30 <survic> Emcy: yeah, the mastercoin people pay for it.
1540 2014-05-11 19:33:42 <Emcy> dont know much about mastercoin
1541 2014-05-11 19:33:52 <petertodd> Emcy: it's an embedded consensus system
1542 2014-05-11 19:33:54 <Emcy> agree that telling people dont do that will just make them go and do it.....
1543 2014-05-11 19:34:26 <petertodd> Emcy: exactly, and we need to realize that sooner rather than later and implement real solutions based on incentives rather than censorship
1544 2014-05-11 19:34:35 <Emcy> embedded in what?
1545 2014-05-11 19:34:39 <petertodd> Emcy: google it
1546 2014-05-11 19:34:55 <Emcy> ok
1547 2014-05-11 19:34:57 <survic> Emcy: no, the more rational of people actually listen when they're told they're doing something bad for the network.
1548 2014-05-11 19:35:03 benten has joined
1549 2014-05-11 19:35:20 <petertodd> survic: yes, just like all coal power plants have shutdown... oh wait
1550 2014-05-11 19:35:35 <Emcy> survic you cannot rely on rationality
1551 2014-05-11 19:35:38 <petertodd> survic: anyway, better to develop genuinely scalable blockchain infrastructure
1552 2014-05-11 19:35:53 <survic> petertodd: that's completely different.
1553 2014-05-11 19:35:57 <robonerd-> uhm, coal technology has progressed to allowing plants which emit zero
1554 2014-05-11 19:36:03 <petertodd> Emcy: even worse, survic is relying on *alturism*, not rationality. putting stuff on the blockchian has *very* good security that other solutions don't
1555 2014-05-11 19:36:04 <robonerd-> just like clean nuclear
1556 2014-05-11 19:36:09 arubi has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1557 2014-05-11 19:36:10 <robonerd-> can we not parrot talking points?
1558 2014-05-11 19:36:16 <Emcy> well, you can rely on very small scale rationality but thats about it
1559 2014-05-11 19:36:34 <robonerd-> (high temp pebble bed gen 5 nuclear plants are safe)
1560 2014-05-11 19:36:37 <petertodd> robonerd-: that's an even better point: that tech is being fought against by coal companies because of the extra cost to them
1561 2014-05-11 19:36:47 <petertodd> Emcy: +1
1562 2014-05-11 19:36:52 <robonerd-> well that should be the issue, not "coal"
1563 2014-05-11 19:36:54 arubi has joined
1564 2014-05-11 19:37:10 <Emcy> petertodd i kina hope altruism might be able to pick up enough slack eventually, if the chain doent get much fatter much quicker than now
1565 2014-05-11 19:37:13 <robonerd-> just like toxins should be the issue, not "carbon"
1566 2014-05-11 19:37:16 <petertodd> robonerd-: point still stands: people are small scale rational, not alturistic
1567 2014-05-11 19:37:28 <robonerd-> i can make a mfg plant that trades in very little carbon, but is highly polluting
1568 2014-05-11 19:37:33 <survic> petertodd: there's some problems that we can't solve. there's no way of stopping idiots from embedding things in our blockchain that we don't want, ie you can't prove that a hash is really a hash and not data in itself. getting people to not attempt in the first place is a better solution than dealing with the piles of crap that they leave when they do.
1569 2014-05-11 19:37:33 <petertodd> robonerd-: don't get global warming into this
1570 2014-05-11 19:37:36 <robonerd-> yea, sure seems like it
1571 2014-05-11 19:37:40 <Emcy> probably naive as shit but w/e
1572 2014-05-11 19:37:46 <robonerd-> sorry to offend your religion
1573 2014-05-11 19:38:02 <petertodd>  /ignore robonerd- <- off topic
1574 2014-05-11 19:38:09 <Emcy> what the fuck is this about coal
1575 2014-05-11 19:38:43 <Emcy> irrelevant
1576 2014-05-11 19:38:46 <petertodd> survic: define "we" when you say don't want... anyway, the "getting people to not do it" has obviously failed, and will fail even more in the future
1577 2014-05-11 19:38:48 <Eliel_> also, people respond better to being interested in what they're doing and suggesting improvements rather than hostilely telling them they're killing bitcoin.
1578 2014-05-11 19:38:59 <Emcy> i thought op_return was supposed to keep everyone happy for a while anyway
1579 2014-05-11 19:39:36 <petertodd> Eliel_: indeed, which is why I gave indutny the honest advice that what he wants to do can probably be done just as securely, and cheaper, with a sidechain that uses the blockchain has a backup publishing mechanism.
1580 2014-05-11 19:40:18 <petertodd> Eliel_: which *is* different than how mastercoin/counterparty work and trades off less resistance to detecting/cirvumventing censorship quickly
1581 2014-05-11 19:40:20 <Emcy> oh god not the d word - diplomacy
1582 2014-05-11 19:40:58 <survic> petertodd: we as in, the people that are forced to store all of this stuff. mastercoin has forced OP_RETURN to allow hashes that aren't really as harmful as other methods, sure. in this case the author doesn't even *need* to be storing stuff anywhere near the block chain, there's no reasoning for it to happen at all.
1583 2014-05-11 19:41:17 <petertodd> survic: mastercoin doesn't store hashes, it stores data
1584 2014-05-11 19:41:45 <survic> petertodd: wasn't the point of OP_RETURN for you to stop doing that?
1585 2014-05-11 19:42:13 <survic> you can build a merkle tree and commit it with only 40 bytes of crap that we don't need to store anymore.
1586 2014-05-11 19:42:20 <petertodd> survic: op-return does not and can-not determine if what you are publishing is a hash or not; stealth addresses depends on the ability to publish data
1587 2014-05-11 19:42:50 <survic> I know.
1588 2014-05-11 19:42:55 <petertodd> survic: see my paper on why committing to merkle trees isn't enough: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg03307.html
1589 2014-05-11 19:43:18 <petertodd> anyway, if I don't leave now a nice girl is going to be mad at me :P
1590 2014-05-11 19:43:19 <petertodd> later
1591 2014-05-11 19:43:21 <petertodd> (for real)
1592 2014-05-11 19:43:22 Aido has joined
1593 2014-05-11 19:45:35 <Emcy> neat libbittorrent 1.0 imminent
1594 2014-05-11 19:45:47 Emzy has joined
1595 2014-05-11 19:45:48 <Emcy> is it not a nice thing when important foss libraries reach 1.0
1596 2014-05-11 19:46:11 <Emcy> like a star settling down onto the main sequence
1597 2014-05-11 19:46:20 <Emcy> and other overly poetic shit
1598 2014-05-11 19:46:30 <survic> bitcoin has reached the point already where the next two versions are going to drive us into stupid version numbers
1599 2014-05-11 19:46:32 <Luke-Jr> does anything use libbittorrent? <.<  anyhow, totally off-topic
1600 2014-05-11 19:46:37 <survic> 0.9, then what?
1601 2014-05-11 19:46:41 <Luke-Jr> survic: 0.10 and 0.11 of course
1602 2014-05-11 19:46:44 <robonerd-> .9.1
1603 2014-05-11 19:46:45 <Luke-Jr> survic: nothing stupid about it
1604 2014-05-11 19:46:59 MoALTz has quit (Quit: bbl)
1605 2014-05-11 19:47:04 <Emcy> bitcoin core is not gonna hit 1.0 gold for a long time
1606 2014-05-11 19:47:14 <robonerd-> 1.0 "gold" haha
1607 2014-05-11 19:47:25 <survic> Luke-Jr: hope people can handle the version numbers. OSX tried that and broke all of their update and compatibility detection by not expecting non-single digit versions.
1608 2014-05-11 19:47:27 <Luke-Jr> Emcy: libktorrent is at 1.3.1
1609 2014-05-11 19:47:28 * robonerd- thinks back to magus & fungii
1610 2014-05-11 19:47:48 sidneyz has joined
1611 2014-05-11 19:47:49 <Luke-Jr> survic: well, that's Apple incompetence for you. sane OSs know how to handle versions.
1612 2014-05-11 19:47:51 sidneyz has quit (Client Quit)
1613 2014-05-11 19:48:20 <robonerd-> yea, apple sucks
1614 2014-05-11 19:48:36 <robonerd-> if they bring in dr dre corp won't be all that sucks
1615 2014-05-11 19:48:37 <survic> Luke-Jr: hardly a problem for you I suppose, you've got a few more characters before you hit double digits.
1616 2014-05-11 19:48:53 <Luke-Jr> survic: me?
1617 2014-05-11 19:49:17 <survic> Luke-Jr: you are the base 16 person right?
1618 2014-05-11 19:49:26 <Luke-Jr> survic: so?
1619 2014-05-11 19:49:30 <Luke-Jr> double digits is not a problem, period.
1620 2014-05-11 19:49:46 <survic> it was sort of meant to be a joke, but never mind
1621 2014-05-11 19:50:23 <Emcy> tell i smiled
1622 2014-05-11 19:50:26 * Luke-Jr notes BFGMiner is currently at 3.10.0
1623 2014-05-11 19:50:27 <Emcy> well*
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1625 2014-05-11 19:51:10 <robonerd-> .0 seemed odd, but then i thought of 1.0, so i guess it has precedence
1626 2014-05-11 19:51:55 <Emcy> Mastercoin is a digital currency and communications protocol built on the Bitcoin block chain. It is one of several prominent efforts to enable complex financial functions in a cryptocurrency.[1]
1627 2014-05-11 19:52:10 <Emcy> thats as far as i am so far, but isnt that what script is for
1628 2014-05-11 19:52:26 <survic> yup.
1629 2014-05-11 19:52:37 <Emcy> sooo..
1630 2014-05-11 19:52:39 <survic> not for mastercoin, not for bloody blog posts.
1631 2014-05-11 19:53:26 <Emcy> well, he mightbe/probably right about bitcoin ending up as a substrate for myriad other shit long term
1632 2014-05-11 19:53:42 <Emcy> thats not even a negative, if it means the chain can be pervasive
1633 2014-05-11 19:53:56 <indutny> ok guys, leaving you
1634 2014-05-11 19:54:04 <indutny> please PM me if you need to know anything
1635 2014-05-11 19:54:05 <indutny> ttyl
1636 2014-05-11 19:54:09 indutny has left ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
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1638 2014-05-11 19:56:04 <Emcy> e.......exodus address
1639 2014-05-11 19:56:10 <Emcy> lol ive missed some shit havent i
1640 2014-05-11 19:56:17 <robonerd-> your meds
1641 2014-05-11 19:56:19 <survic> Emcy: make sure you read the "second satoshi paper" too
1642 2014-05-11 19:56:37 Aido_ has joined
1643 2014-05-11 19:56:56 <Emcy> didnt you get booted for trying to troll me before robonerd
1644 2014-05-11 19:57:31 <Emcy> survic satoshi never wrote a second paper
1645 2014-05-11 19:58:16 <survic> Emcy: that's what the mastercoin person called his "whitepaper". exodus address, second satoshi paper. get the picture?
1646 2014-05-11 19:58:45 <Emcy> seems a bit grandiose but ok
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1650 2014-05-11 20:00:59 <survic> to say the least.
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1656 2014-05-11 20:08:10 <GAit> petertodd: heya
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1681 2014-05-11 20:56:33 <gui77> is it normal for bitcoin-qt to take seemingly forever to start up, after the splash screen but before the window pops up? (I am *not* referring to syncing times)
1682 2014-05-11 21:00:55 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1684 2014-05-11 21:02:11 <gmaxwell> No.
1685 2014-05-11 21:03:00 <gmaxwell> Here with a cold cache it takes 15 seconds.
1686 2014-05-11 21:03:14 <gmaxwell> (on a SSD)
1687 2014-05-11 21:03:56 <gmaxwell> there has been at least one other person that has reported insane multiminute times, they were on windows with and older system.  Maybe due to crazy AV or hdd driver bugs or failing media.
1688 2014-05-11 21:04:24 Ogig has joined
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1695 2014-05-11 21:20:45 <waxwing> when is bitcoin  moving to gamma?
1696 2014-05-11 21:21:36 christoph_ has joined
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1698 2014-05-11 21:23:41 <Emcy> gamma?
1699 2014-05-11 21:24:12 <survic> alpha, beta, gamma?
1700 2014-05-11 21:24:18 <teward> no such thing as 'gamma'
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1705 2014-05-11 21:29:20 <waxwing> it was a joke, sorry. i will not give up my day job :)
1706 2014-05-11 21:29:30 <waxwing> well, i wouldn't, if i had one.
1707 2014-05-11 21:29:47 <hearn> heh
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1709 2014-05-11 21:30:46 <shesek> can coinprism even call itself colored coins, now that they're using that open assets protocol?
1710 2014-05-11 21:31:19 <gui77> gmaxwell: yeah, I'm on windows. my hdd is slow but not THAT slow. mostly it happens after a big sync the previous run, then the few after that are much faster. 10 minutes happens often
1711 2014-05-11 21:31:36 <shesek> it uses its own metadata protocol on top of the blockchain, seems pretty similar to mastercoin and counterparty
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1735 2014-05-11 22:02:58 <GAit> shesek: i don't think it can
1736 2014-05-11 22:03:01 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1737 2014-05-11 22:03:38 <GAit> shesek: you mean this yes ? https://github.com/OpenAssets/open-assets-protocol/blob/master/specification.mediawiki
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1743 2014-05-11 22:05:16 <shesek> GAit, yes
1744 2014-05-11 22:06:37 <GAit> i prefer pure colored coin and so far i plan to implement that
1745 2014-05-11 22:09:26 Jamesz has joined
1746 2014-05-11 22:10:20 <shesek> I also find pure colored coins (now we need a new term to describe what colored coins should be about?) much more elegant
1747 2014-05-11 22:10:44 <gmaxwell> yuck. :P
1748 2014-05-11 22:11:10 <shesek> but it is quite problematic due to small outputs and the dust rules
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1750 2014-05-11 22:12:06 <shesek> miners don't really care about the special colored value you gave it... for them its just small outputs that aren't worthy of inclusion, at least not without ridiculous fees
1751 2014-05-11 22:12:25 <gmaxwell> Most of that stuff is problematic due to pointlessness, not dust rules (for dust rules you just make your increment enough to pass them, and then you don't end up with issues like creating zillion utxo that no one ever has any incentive to clean up)
1752 2014-05-11 22:12:55 <GAit> gmaxwell: once you use above dust, is that still yucky you think?
1753 2014-05-11 22:13:07 <gmaxwell> pointlessness because some external force needs to give the colored coin meaning and for most applications people talk about you can just skip the colored coin part and ask the self same force to keep a ledger with basically no impact on the security model.
1754 2014-05-11 22:13:35 ElectRo` has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1755 2014-05-11 22:13:41 <GAit> gmaxwell: well there is a difference between managing issuance and managing issuance and trading
1756 2014-05-11 22:13:43 <shesek> gmaxwell, well, with colored coins, you'd just trust them to honor the value they said they gave to those coins
1757 2014-05-11 22:13:55 <shesek> and you can publicly prove to the world if they're cheating
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1759 2014-05-11 22:14:10 <gmaxwell> it's the same kind of yuck I give to the coinbase transaction bouncing. It's a costly but low value indirection in order to fit something in a particular cognative model.
1760 2014-05-11 22:14:19 <shesek> trusting them to also keep track of issuance and ownerships is a different kind of trust
1761 2014-05-11 22:14:21 <gmaxwell> shesek: you can do this with a publically visble ledger.
1762 2014-05-11 22:14:38 <gmaxwell> And if an asset won't be honored, do you still own it?
1763 2014-05-11 22:14:57 <shesek> gmaxwell, at least I can hurt their reputation if they don't honor it
1764 2014-05-11 22:15:07 <shesek> which gives them an incentive to honor it in the first place
1765 2014-05-11 22:15:10 <gmaxwell> but thats the same even if they operate the entire ledger.
1766 2014-05-11 22:15:41 <shesek> how do you mean exactly? what kind of publicly visible ledger?
1767 2014-05-11 22:15:41 <GAit> one thing is honoring, one thing is getting hacked at the ledger
1768 2014-05-11 22:16:05 <gmaxwell> GAit: whats to hack? you use the same cryptographic controls on it you use in bitcoin.
1769 2014-05-11 22:16:11 danielpbarron has joined
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1771 2014-05-11 22:16:24 <gmaxwell> e.g. it can be as simple as a copy of bitcoin with it's own chain pow replaced by the issuer signing blocks, and the issuer's key being able to summon coins into existance.
1772 2014-05-11 22:16:49 <shesek> and what prevents them from altering the order of events?
1773 2014-05-11 22:17:15 <GAit> and how is this pow protected? via hashing? i.e. a bitcoin miner can take over in no time?
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1775 2014-05-11 22:17:40 <gmaxwell> same thing that prevent them from saying "nope, this other coin is the colored coin" and not honoring transfers they thought they would. Anyone can easily see they signed conflicting blocks.
1776 2014-05-11 22:17:41 dj_jazzy_jeff has joined
1777 2014-05-11 22:17:50 <gmaxwell> GAit: by them sigining them.
1778 2014-05-11 22:18:16 <shesek> gmaxwell, and what prevents them from not letting transactions into the block?
1779 2014-05-11 22:18:19 <gmaxwell> Even better this system cannot be dos attacked or reorged by random parties, so since you're already trusting the issuer in some capacity it has better security.
1780 2014-05-11 22:18:21 <dj_jazzy_jeff> someone told me i can get free bitcoins if i come to dis chanel
1781 2014-05-11 22:18:22 <GAit> ok but now i need two systems, it seems more convenient to have one place for my btc and assets rather than two softwares
1782 2014-05-11 22:18:30 <shesek> i.e. preventing a shareholder of some company stock from selling his shares?
1783 2014-05-11 22:18:58 <sipa> GAit: i prefer long term scalability over inconvenience
1784 2014-05-11 22:19:10 sidneyz has joined
1785 2014-05-11 22:19:19 <gmaxwell> shesek: same thing that prevents them from not honoring the very same sale that happened elsewhere. The colored coin transaction is just a fiction created in the minds of the participants, they're free to ignore it.  You can obviously show everyone the perfectly valid transaction they're refusing to include.
1786 2014-05-11 22:19:38 <shesek> and what you're suggesting is going to require monitoring nodes to keep track of blocks and notice if they're doing something fishy
1787 2014-05-11 22:19:46 <dj_jazzy_jeff> they said " go to the channel, ask for free bitcoins and then wait"
1788 2014-05-11 22:19:47 <shesek> gmaxwell, well, I can't prove I sent it to him prior to that
1789 2014-05-11 22:19:55 <dj_jazzy_jeff> and i was like "that will never work"
1790 2014-05-11 22:20:01 <gmaxwell> GAit: you're basically taking something which is necessarily of interest to only a small community and asking the entire bitcoin using world to undertake costs in maintaining that data... pretty fundimentally inefficient and not scalable.
1791 2014-05-11 22:20:02 <shesek> they could include it the moment I make the transaction public, saying that they never heard of that before
1792 2014-05-11 22:20:02 <dj_jazzy_jeff> and they wer like "no for real, just do it"
1793 2014-05-11 22:20:08 <gmaxwell> shesek: sure but when its still not there a day later?
1794 2014-05-11 22:20:09 <shesek> in which case, they're just making it much harder to sell
1795 2014-05-11 22:20:16 <sipa> dj_jazzy_jeff: sorry, they lied
1796 2014-05-11 22:20:37 ValicekB has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1797 2014-05-11 22:20:45 <GAit> gmaxwell: isn't multisignature only for me yet it occupies more space on the blockchain?
1798 2014-05-11 22:21:00 <dj_jazzy_jeff> sipa: y u no free bitcoin
1799 2014-05-11 22:21:02 <gmaxwell> shesek: and of course anyone running an node on this network could record when they saw the transactions... if you wanted other shareholders could sign, but it seems pointlessly complex unless that kind of DOS attack were common place (and if it were common people would know)
1800 2014-05-11 22:21:14 <dj_jazzy_jeff> sipa your name looks so familiar
1801 2014-05-11 22:21:20 <dj_jazzy_jeff> dont know why..
1802 2014-05-11 22:21:59 <sipa> GAit: everything is a compromise between cost and benefit
1803 2014-05-11 22:22:01 <shesek> gmaxwell, you do raise some valid points - a lot of the guarantees Bitcoin provides are somewhat moot with centralized assets
1804 2014-05-11 22:22:01 <GAit> by no mean i want to bloat the blockchain
1805 2014-05-11 22:22:09 <gmaxwell> GAit: to some extent, but it's also just a small marginal amount, and it's a part of maintaining the integrity of regular transactions, not an entire orthorgonal load.
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1807 2014-05-11 22:22:23 <sipa> GAit: but multisig has huge advantages, and serves the same purpose: a digital currency
1808 2014-05-11 22:22:30 <shesek> how about resistant to censorship and takedown?
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1810 2014-05-11 22:22:50 <GAit> sipa: yes but i am reminded every other day that digital currency is just the first application of the blockchain. And also that other blockchains that bitcoins are insecure
1811 2014-05-11 22:23:04 <GAit> s/that/than/
1812 2014-05-11 22:23:05 <shesek> well, actually, it doesn't really matter of the colored coins are resistant, because the entity operating them still isn't
1813 2014-05-11 22:23:24 <gmaxwell> shesek: And in exchange you get a bunch of other good properties: if the issuer really is honest (you better hope he is!) then you get a kind of instantly perfect security no POW blockchain can offer. You also get much better scalablity.. faster trades.. not having to download data about assets you don't care about...
1814 2014-05-11 22:23:45 <sipa> GAit: i am far from convinced that there are many other use cases for which a blockchain both technically and economically makes sense
1815 2014-05-11 22:23:59 <GAit> sipa: interesting
1816 2014-05-11 22:24:01 <sipa> getting the incentives right seems very delicate
1817 2014-05-11 22:24:16 <sipa> or at least, a PoW-protected blockchain
1818 2014-05-11 22:24:23 <gmaxwell> GAit: people that are using phrases like "first application of the blockchain" are often starry eyed and not thinking carefully about the technology. There are a lot of very thinly justified agressive claims they do not pass a technical sniff test. Not that there aren't other neat things possible, but it's good to be skeptical.
1819 2014-05-11 22:24:37 <robonerd-> aggressive
1820 2014-05-11 22:24:40 <survic> I saw a suggestion that a blockchain would be good for instant messaging earlier. the mind boggles. it's literally the most unsuitable technology imaginable for IM.
1821 2014-05-11 22:24:59 <GAit> gmaxwell: well it seems reasonably good for proof of existance
1822 2014-05-11 22:25:03 <gmaxwell> The PoW Blockchains work withing a narrow range of incentives and will work almost certantly less well for other things.
1823 2014-05-11 22:25:34 <shesek> GAit, more generally, its good as a trustless public digital timestamp service
1824 2014-05-11 22:25:41 <gmaxwell> GAit: hah actually the people doing that are doing it _horribly_ poorly. There is a way to accomplish that which has basically infinite scaling at no cost, and thats not what people do.
1825 2014-05-11 22:25:49 <survic> namecoin is one one of them. it doesn't really act in the way it should because it's main function is only secondary to it being a coin.
1826 2014-05-11 22:25:51 <gmaxwell> (and yes it's good at that when done right)
1827 2014-05-11 22:26:00 <GAit> gmaxwell and sipa, even if what you say is true, there is no way of preventing someone from using the blockchain this way
1828 2014-05-11 22:26:05 <gmaxwell> Sure there is.
1829 2014-05-11 22:26:25 <shesek> gmaxwell, I did see someone using merkle trees for that
1830 2014-05-11 22:26:43 <GAit> gmaxwell: i didn't know there was
1831 2014-05-11 22:26:52 <sipa> shesek: yes, use a merkle tree to convert all commitments to a single hash, and store that in the coinbase
1832 2014-05-11 22:27:06 <gmaxwell> The chain has limited capacity, and this usage is going to be out bid by people using bitcoin as a currency, as advertised... and if the currency users get tired about bidding against HFT users they'll filter them. Bitcoin is not a jamming free network by any means.
1833 2014-05-11 22:27:11 <sipa> shesek: infinite commitments at the cost of at most 32 bytes per 10 minutes
1834 2014-05-11 22:27:31 <shesek> and one of those people doing that horrible poorly is me, I'm afraid :(
1835 2014-05-11 22:27:37 * gmaxwell wags his finger
1836 2014-05-11 22:27:40 <shesek> I should get around to doing something about that someday :\
1837 2014-05-11 22:28:46 <shesek> sipa, well, cost for the network... it also has the added cost of having users store proof of inclusion in the merkle root getting committed
1838 2014-05-11 22:28:58 <sipa> shesek: oh noes!
1839 2014-05-11 22:29:01 <gmaxwell> in any case, certantly there are things which bitcoin itself does better than anything else— but bitcoin's advantages come at some costs— it's probably the most expensive communications medium ever conceived of by man. The security promises it makes are pretty good, given enough time, but they're fairly weak for few confirmations, etc.
1840 2014-05-11 22:29:14 <sipa> shesek: users needing to store a few hashes, instead of everyone storing every hash!
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1843 2014-05-11 22:29:38 <shesek> sipa, I do agree - the cost is definitely tiny compares to everyone having to store everything
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1845 2014-05-11 22:29:54 <shesek> I was just being pedant... there is some extra cost with that
1846 2014-05-11 22:30:09 <sipa> also, you need miner cooperation
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1848 2014-05-11 22:30:21 <sipa> but then again, if your timestamping is valuable, you can pay them for it!
1849 2014-05-11 22:30:23 <GAit> sipa: which is also going to be pricy eventually
1850 2014-05-11 22:30:25 <gmaxwell> if you do worry about that bit of user factor you can also provide a seperate simple network to give people free storage of that stuff... still better than trying to demand all bitcoin users do so. :)
1851 2014-05-11 22:30:30 <richcollins> Is it possible to create 2 transactions, A and B where B depends on A and then broadcast them both at the same time?
1852 2014-05-11 22:30:35 <sipa> richcollins: yes
1853 2014-05-11 22:30:36 <shesek> sipa, you could just have a service do this in an OP_RETURN
1854 2014-05-11 22:30:41 <sipa> shesek: why?
1855 2014-05-11 22:30:42 <shesek> the cost is not much higher than using the coinbase
1856 2014-05-11 22:30:43 <gmaxwell> GAit: why would something with infinite scaling be pricy? there is no limit to the amount of data that can be commited that way.
1857 2014-05-11 22:30:53 <richcollins> sipa: Awesome thanks
1858 2014-05-11 22:31:00 <shesek> sipa, because of what you just said - it doesn't require miner cooperation
1859 2014-05-11 22:31:03 <gmaxwell> shesek: the problem then is multiple people running seperate services.
1860 2014-05-11 22:31:05 <sipa> shesek: so?
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1862 2014-05-11 22:31:23 <sipa> shesek: you can jointly - with a million people all doing commitments if necessary - pay the miner
1863 2014-05-11 22:31:24 <shesek> and if you get only 10% of the hashing power to support that, you'd get a time accuracy of ~1.5 hours
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1865 2014-05-11 22:31:47 <GAit> oh i see now
1866 2014-05-11 22:31:50 <shesek> which might be good enough in some cases, but not in others
1867 2014-05-11 22:31:54 <GAit> there's a time limit but no size limit
1868 2014-05-11 22:31:59 <gmaxwell> shesek: why wouldn't it be 100%? it's not like its costly to do. silly assumption there.
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1870 2014-05-11 22:32:36 <sipa> shesek: an existing implementation (chronobit) used p2pool to do commitments, resulting in better-than-one-block accuracy still with O(1) per block cost
1871 2014-05-11 22:32:38 <gmaxwell> it's worth not turning it off just to avoid people doing the less efficient thing which makes bitcoin less useful as a currency.
1872 2014-05-11 22:32:41 <shesek> gmaxwell, well, it could definitely eventually be at 100%... but until then, its going to require people to setup additional services that aren't part of the reference implementation
1873 2014-05-11 22:32:47 <sipa> (but more data stored by users)
1874 2014-05-11 22:33:10 <gmaxwell> sipa: chronobit really needs the compact SPV proofs. :)
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1876 2014-05-11 22:33:17 <sipa> yes!
1877 2014-05-11 22:33:41 <gmaxwell> shesek: well people have been doing these inefficient things since at least early 2011, they then stop and don't do anything more, so 'until' doesn't seem to work.
1878 2014-05-11 22:34:25 <shesek> all I'm saying, if there's one service that everyone uses (and not a gazillion different ones), the cost is negligible
1879 2014-05-11 22:34:44 <GAit> so looks like some models may even work for a short amount of time but go out of business as friction makes them useless?
1880 2014-05-11 22:35:00 <gmaxwell> GAit: yes.
1881 2014-05-11 22:35:07 <gmaxwell> shesek: or a metaservice that commits to other services.
1882 2014-05-11 22:35:19 <gmaxwell> at a cost of log(services) additional hashes.
1883 2014-05-11 22:35:41 <GAit> i really hope some of this stuff will be mentioned at the conference
1884 2014-05-11 22:36:00 <shesek> right... well, one service that commits to the blockchain, and others that can commit under its merkle
1885 2014-05-11 22:36:23 <shesek> I wonder though about the option of paying for it that you mentioned (or was it sipa?)
1886 2014-05-11 22:36:25 <gmaxwell> GAit: so it's like that with the colored coins stuff to, it can work today, very unclear that it works tomorrow, and to the extent that you can do it without directly using bitcoin for 100% of it, and get some better properties (stronger security against byzantine attackers; faster speed, etc) then thats all gravy.
1887 2014-05-11 22:36:47 <shesek> how is it going to work exactly? the cost for adding another hash to the merkle is very very close to 0
1888 2014-05-11 22:37:04 <shesek> meaning that the cost of the service will go towards zero over time as well
1889 2014-05-11 22:37:26 <shesek> how are users going to pay for it? the cost of adding a transaction making the payment is much larger than the cost of adding the hash
1890 2014-05-11 22:37:27 <GAit> oh noes, a CA business model
1891 2014-05-11 22:37:36 <gmaxwell> Yep. It should be free and just sponsoried by the interest in making bitcoin work better.
1892 2014-05-11 22:37:55 <gmaxwell> shesek: if you were going to pay for it you could pay once and just get chaum tokens to exchange for future timestamps.
1893 2014-05-11 22:38:06 <robonerd-> any solution to the drop off in transaction nodes?
1894 2014-05-11 22:38:28 <gmaxwell> GAit: probably not, the people who are taking the microphone usually have a pecuniary interest in selling people fast time to market solutions.. and they like to pander to surface analysis that doesn't ask questions like "neat, but is it really needed?".
1895 2014-05-11 22:39:04 <shesek> btw, any of you are planning to attend the conference?
1896 2014-05-11 22:39:07 <GAit> me
1897 2014-05-11 22:39:08 <sipa> i will
1898 2014-05-11 22:39:39 <robonerd-> i'm going
1899 2014-05-11 22:40:17 <shesek> I'm still trying to decide whether I should delay some meeting for that
1900 2014-05-11 22:40:50 <GAit> ah, i'm considering it a break from work :D
1901 2014-05-11 22:41:06 <shesek> heh
1902 2014-05-11 22:41:28 <shesek> for you its ":D", for me its time that I really do need to spend on work
1903 2014-05-11 22:41:41 <shesek> its also a consideration... I'll be losing at least 5 days of work for that
1904 2014-05-11 22:42:03 <shesek> I'm so close to an alpha release for Bitrated v2
1905 2014-05-11 22:42:03 <GAit> yeah and short term memory loss
1906 2014-05-11 22:43:00 <shesek> :-)
1907 2014-05-11 22:43:57 <shesek> btw, anyone familiar with any of the organizers? I want to get the student discount, but my uni doesn't give us email addresses :\
1908 2014-05-11 22:44:23 <GAit> martial art student?
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1912 2014-05-11 22:45:25 <shesek> I'm a "taking whatever courses that looks interesting at the beginning of the semester" student
1913 2014-05-11 22:45:55 <robonerd-> your parents footing the bill?
1914 2014-05-11 22:46:18 <shesek> some mix of psychology, linguistics, philosophy, anthropology, math and cs
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1916 2014-05-11 22:46:51 <shesek> mostly introductory courses that I can take without having to take shitload of other required courses first
1917 2014-05-11 22:47:14 <shesek> nope, I'm paying for that
1918 2014-05-11 22:47:16 <GAit> shesek: seems very interesting. I wish i could have picked subjects more freely. Back to the conference: It's my first one and I think it is a great opportuinity to meet a lot of great people and startups
1919 2014-05-11 22:47:40 <GAit> so even if fun it is work afterall :)
1920 2014-05-11 22:47:53 <shesek> yeah, definitely. I had a great time in my last conference (CoinSummit)
1921 2014-05-11 22:48:05 <GAit> please don't make me feel work guilt about going
1922 2014-05-11 22:48:05 <shesek> I also got to present there, so a lot of interesting people approached me
1923 2014-05-11 22:48:13 <GAit> oh, cool
1924 2014-05-11 22:48:17 <GAit> is there a video ?
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1926 2014-05-11 22:48:38 <shesek> there should be somewhere, yeah
1927 2014-05-11 22:49:00 <shesek> though I think I kinda sucked :P
1928 2014-05-11 22:49:12 <shesek> it was my first time doing something like that in English, and I was super nervous
1929 2014-05-11 22:49:41 <sipa> i've done several presentations in english, and i'm still nervous :)
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1931 2014-05-11 22:50:27 <Gokuson> yea no matter how many interviews and presentations I do, I stay nervous. I think if i didnt get nervous something would be wrong.
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1933 2014-05-11 22:50:40 <shesek> it was also my second time doing any presentation at all, the first one being two weeks before that in an Israeli conference
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1935 2014-05-11 22:51:04 <shesek> which was *much* smaller than CoinSummit
1936 2014-05-11 22:51:13 <survic> sipa: is belgium like the netherlands where most people speak a bit/lot of english?
1937 2014-05-11 22:51:21 <sipa> survic: yeah
1938 2014-05-11 22:51:38 <sipa> at least in the flemish part
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1944 2014-05-11 22:56:49 <shesek> GAit, I think I'll go... I'll get myself a flight and tickets tomorrow
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1946 2014-05-11 22:57:34 <shesek> some time off of sitting 17 hours a day in front of vim could be good
1947 2014-05-11 22:57:44 <GAit> at least you use vim
1948 2014-05-11 22:57:48 <GAit> you could have been an emacs guy
1949 2014-05-11 22:58:06 <GAit> it would be great to meet you!
1950 2014-05-11 22:58:22 <sipa> http://teaching.idallen.com/cst8207/13f/notes/data/vi_emacs.png
1951 2014-05-11 22:58:54 <shesek> hehe
1952 2014-05-11 22:59:13 <shesek> I used to be an emacs guy a long time ago :)
1953 2014-05-11 22:59:21 * sipa never used either
1954 2014-05-11 22:59:32 <shesek> for a short period, though
1955 2014-05-11 22:59:34 <GAit> :)  obligatory http://xkcd.com/378/
1956 2014-05-11 22:59:38 <shesek> what are you using, sipa?
1957 2014-05-11 22:59:45 <sipa> mcedit *hides*
1958 2014-05-11 22:59:45 <shesek> and it would be great to meet you too, GAit!
1959 2014-05-11 23:00:19 <GAit> a minecraft word/world editor ?
1960 2014-05-11 23:00:23 <sipa> tssss
1961 2014-05-11 23:00:50 <sipa> just because there is a project on github with that particular name doesn't mean it's the only one!
1962 2014-05-11 23:00:59 <sipa> midnight commander's editor
1963 2014-05-11 23:00:59 <GAit> ohh GNU Midnight Commander.
1964 2014-05-11 23:01:22 <shesek> its not just some project on github, its the whole first page on Google
1965 2014-05-11 23:01:27 <GAit> eh eh
1966 2014-05-11 23:01:41 <shesek> I thought you meant that too
1967 2014-05-11 23:01:45 <GAit> i know some guys like pycharm or all the tools from that software house anyway
1968 2014-05-11 23:02:04 <GAit> i can't stand ides on my way
1969 2014-05-11 23:02:04 Aido_ is now known as Aido
1970 2014-05-11 23:02:40 <shesek> technically... I think I saw someone implementing Game of Life in minecraft, which is turing complete... so it should be possible to get an IDE on top of minecraft :)
1971 2014-05-11 23:03:19 <GAit> well once they got linux booting in JS and unreal with emscripten nothing surprises me
1972 2014-05-11 23:03:22 <sipa> or run midnight commander inside an emulator written using minecraft editor
1973 2014-05-11 23:03:49 <GAit> curiously recurring editor
1974 2014-05-11 23:04:16 <sipa> we're getting a bit off topic here (and i'm to blame with that picture...)
1975 2014-05-11 23:04:37 <GAit> quick, think of somethign bitcoin-dev related. bits!
1976 2014-05-11 23:04:55 <GAit> d'OH
1977 2014-05-11 23:05:45 <shesek> sorry, but one last off-topic link I just remembered - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My8AsV7bA94 (turing machine implemented with game of life - pretty amazing!)
1978 2014-05-11 23:06:17 <venzen> here's an OT watershed for you all: anyone tried out libcoin?
1979 2014-05-11 23:06:42 <GAit> shesek: seems like a big tamagotchi
1980 2014-05-11 23:07:53 ryanxcharles has joined
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1983 2014-05-11 23:10:11 <venzen> sorry i can't stay for all the exuberant liboin chat - gotta get some sleep!
1984 2014-05-11 23:10:45 ebfull has joined
1985 2014-05-11 23:10:52 <GAit> venzen: i haven't used it, seems like a fork minus the wallet and a few other things?
1986 2014-05-11 23:11:24 <sipa> it was a large refactor of a fork of the bitcoind codebase around 0.4 or 0.5
1987 2014-05-11 23:11:43 <sipa> which was really nice, but such a large change at once that reviewing/merging wasn't possible
1988 2014-05-11 23:12:38 <gmaxwell> it also had a lot of scarry bugs initially. e.g. it basically stripped out the locking code without actually making things threadsafe.
1989 2014-05-11 23:12:52 ahbritto__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1991 2014-05-11 23:13:06 <gmaxwell> but thats the sort of things forks are good for... going and making changes that are too risky in production systems
1992 2014-05-11 23:13:09 <shesek> are they still keeping it updated with bitcoin/bitcoin or did they just continue developing it separately?
1993 2014-05-11 23:13:13 <shesek> looks like its still updated
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2000 2014-05-11 23:15:45 <GAit> btcd seems updated quite regularly too, same guys that made my window manager, scrotwm
2001 2014-05-11 23:15:55 zone117x has joined
2002 2014-05-11 23:16:03 <GAit> now called spectrwm unfortunately
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2006 2014-05-11 23:17:47 <shesek> btcd is pretty nice - I'm currently using that for the next version of Bitrated
2007 2014-05-11 23:18:12 <GAit> counting to switch to bitcoind if they don't move from alpha?
2008 2014-05-11 23:18:12 <shesek> the devs are also pretty responsive and helpful
2009 2014-05-11 23:18:47 <shesek> it seems pretty stable as it is right now
2010 2014-05-11 23:19:10 <shesek> I've been running it for some time now and done some stress tests on it
2011 2014-05-11 23:19:12 <survic> it does mean we are dragging them along.
2012 2014-05-11 23:19:31 <survic> in the same sort of mineset of bitcoin-ruby, you really wouldn't want to run anything serious behind it
2013 2014-05-11 23:20:03 <GAit> shesek: well it does pass all the official tests but on the github page (which may not be up to date) they call it an alpha
2014 2014-05-11 23:20:14 <survic> mindset.
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2016 2014-05-11 23:20:30 <sipa> GAit: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/25254/why-dont-developers-switch-from-bitcoin-qt-to-a-cleaner-implementation
2017 2014-05-11 23:20:42 <shesek> survic, dragging them along? in what way?
2018 2014-05-11 23:21:21 <survic> shesek: if we make a concensus altering change they have to as well at peril or being left behind
2019 2014-05-11 23:21:23 <shesek> GAit, they do, but its also used in production by a few of the devs
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2021 2014-05-11 23:22:23 <GAit> sipa: i already read that answer of yours, i can see the point (which you still have with older client versions) but the thing is if something better comes along that may even become the defacto new client
2022 2014-05-11 23:22:45 <sipa> perhaps, but i'm not looking forward to that
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2024 2014-05-11 23:22:57 <shesek> its probably still a bit too early and risky right now... but it does look rather stable
2025 2014-05-11 23:23:30 <GAit> shesek: maybe i can test it a bit on testnet, see how it performs :)
2026 2014-05-11 23:23:36 <shesek> survic, oh, right. well, that's true for all the other implementations... everyone has to follow the reference implementation, its the de-facto protocol standard
2027 2014-05-11 23:23:49 <sipa> no, everyone has to follow what the network does
2028 2014-05-11 23:23:51 <shesek> well, not just the de-facto, its the official standard
2029 2014-05-11 23:23:54 <sipa> and that is the reference client currently
2030 2014-05-11 23:24:01 hanti is now known as HANTI
2031 2014-05-11 23:24:02 <sipa> and there is no standard; read my answer there :)
2032 2014-05-11 23:24:06 gsdgdfs has joined
2033 2014-05-11 23:24:07 <sipa> there even can't be :)
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2035 2014-05-11 23:24:09 <GAit> yeah there is no standard i agree
2036 2014-05-11 23:24:13 <GAit> there's only the current network
2037 2014-05-11 23:24:14 <shesek> isn't the standard defined as what the reference implementation does?
2038 2014-05-11 23:24:16 <GAit> and the implementation
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2041 2014-05-11 23:24:26 <sipa> shesek: read my answer :P
2042 2014-05-11 23:24:26 <GAit> yes shesek but that's an ever moving target
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2045 2014-05-11 23:24:42 <sipa> GAit: hopefully not! :o
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2050 2014-05-11 23:25:00 <GAit> sipa: ok, for the forseenable future. For years at least.
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2059 2014-05-11 23:25:48 <sipa> apart from the 0.7 database bug that caused the may 15 fork (which can be avoided with a setting), and the rules added by BIP16, BIP30 and BIP34, i believe current git head is compatible with bitcoin 0.2.10
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2061 2014-05-11 23:30:08 ahmed_ is now known as ahmed_sleep
2062 2014-05-11 23:30:17 <GAit> i need to re-read twice or more your answer on stackoverflow. Something doesn't convince me yet, i mean, i can see both pros and cons in having multiple implementation (hopefully identical) and only one in circulation (which is never one as people upgrade and bugs are always possible)
2063 2014-05-11 23:30:52 <GAit> maybe less of an issue on the longish term
2064 2014-05-11 23:31:02 <GAit> more problematic today
2065 2014-05-11 23:31:04 <sipa> GAit: more _consensus_ implementations just add risk imho; any combination of two adds risk of incompatibility
2066 2014-05-11 23:31:13 <sipa> more _node_ implementations is certainly a good thing
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2077 2014-05-11 23:39:20 <GAit> sipa: just one argument: isn't modularizing and putting the consensus impl in a library (perhaps without the openssl invalid signature bugs) the equivalent of creating yet a new consensus library?
2078 2014-05-11 23:39:56 <GAit> i admit that refactoring should be easier than a clean room implementation
2079 2014-05-11 23:40:11 <GAit> but, there's still room for consensus misalignments no?
2080 2014-05-11 23:40:12 <sipa> yeah, individual changes are much easier to audit
2081 2014-05-11 23:40:20 <sipa> but of course, there is always risk for bugs
2082 2014-05-11 23:40:25 <GAit> kk
2083 2014-05-11 23:40:31 grau has joined
2084 2014-05-11 23:40:37 <sipa> the openssl thing is just one example of a weirdness, there are many others :)
2085 2014-05-11 23:40:54 <GAit> must be feeling like a surgeon operating with needles
2086 2014-05-11 23:41:01 <sipa> did you know you can put a signature in the scriptPubKey?
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2088 2014-05-11 23:41:17 <GAit> no i didn't
2089 2014-05-11 23:41:26 <sipa> (knowing that it must sign the transaction that *spends* that output, not the transaction it is put in)
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2094 2014-05-11 23:43:53 <sipa> or that if you use SIGHASH_SINGLE, and you have more inputs than outputs, the extra ones must sign the 256-bit value 0000000....000001
2095 2014-05-11 23:44:52 <GAit> hey if you wanted to scare me i'm terrorized
2096 2014-05-11 23:44:58 <dcousens> haha
2097 2014-05-11 23:45:03 * sipa -> sleep
2098 2014-05-11 23:45:05 <sipa> :p
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2100 2014-05-11 23:45:10 <GAit> you win :)
2101 2014-05-11 23:45:53 <GAit> thanks sipa for the valuable lesson
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2103 2014-05-11 23:51:28 <davec> GAit: btcd will be moving to beta on the next release.  It's been running without any issues for >6 months.  We have been extremely conservative and careful due to the nature of consensus
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2105 2014-05-11 23:52:01 <GAit> davec: fair enough, given what sipa told me you are quite brave :)
2106 2014-05-11 23:52:37 lalopalo has joined
2107 2014-05-11 23:53:03 <GAit> davec: were you also involved with spectrwm ?
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2110 2014-05-11 23:54:34 <davec> heh wll I always find the debate interesting.  I come to the opposite conclusion however.  I think it's more dangerous to expect a hopefully de-facto world currency is 100% controlled by a single implementation that only a handful of people hold hte SSH keys for
2111 2014-05-11 23:55:29 <GAit> davec: even if so, writing a consensus implementation is a hugely delicate matter i understand
2112 2014-05-11 23:56:16 <davec> GAit: I didn't personally hack on spectrwn, but I use it and am familiar with the code
2113 2014-05-11 23:56:25 <sipa> davec: you can still fork the code if you disagree with changes made, at massively lower risk than reimplementing it
2114 2014-05-11 23:56:44 <davec> GAit: absolutely true on the delicate matter.  There is no doubt at all - it's _extremely_ difficult - particularly because there is no real spec
2115 2014-05-11 23:56:45 <GAit> well if you know personally who worked on it davec do say that a guy told you he loves it and he is greateful for the work.
2116 2014-05-11 23:57:01 <sipa> i understand why a clean implementation is appealing, but i still find it an unnecessary risk
2117 2014-05-11 23:57:06 <sipa> of course, possibly biased here :)
2118 2014-05-11 23:57:34 <GAit> sipa: as a matter of opinion, should you start from scratch would you go again with C++?
2119 2014-05-11 23:57:40 <sipa> GAit: absolutely
2120 2014-05-11 23:58:05 <sipa> (i'd structure the code quite differently, though...)
2121 2014-05-11 23:58:31 <sipa> best reason in favor of C++ imho is something we're not actually doing now, but i believe we'll need over time
2122 2014-05-11 23:58:48 <sipa> namely accurate resource tracking per peer and block (memory/cpu used)
2123 2014-05-11 23:58:55 <davec> Yeah I've noticed some of that is happening in regards to refactoring, which I'm really happy to see
2124 2014-05-11 23:59:11 <sipa> anything with automatic garbage collection makes that pretty much impossible