1 2014-05-12 00:00:03 <GAit> it's a good argument
   2 2014-05-12 00:00:35 <sipa> i really hope we can modularize the code further now, and split off parts that are separately usable
   3 2014-05-12 00:00:40 <sipa> script evaluation, for example
   4 2014-05-12 00:00:59 CoinHeavy has quit (Quit: CoinHeavy)
   5 2014-05-12 00:01:15 <GAit> i hope to bring some help to that
   6 2014-05-12 00:01:19 <sipa> cool!
   7 2014-05-12 00:01:38 <GAit> not sure if personally as well but definitely from one of the guys i'm hoping will join us in a month or so
   8 2014-05-12 00:02:10 <sipa> C++ can easily have unexpected runtime complexities though (for example, some assignment can cause a huge nested object structure to be copied in the heap)
   9 2014-05-12 00:02:26 <sipa> for which C would be better... but it's so annoyingly verbose
  10 2014-05-12 00:02:39 <sipa> and much harder to forget things due to no RAII
  11 2014-05-12 00:02:41 <GAit> yeah and imho it's easier to find someone bad at C++ than python or java
  12 2014-05-12 00:03:50 darwin_ has quit ()
  13 2014-05-12 00:04:02 <GAit> i've seen and worked at nightmareish C++ codebases (as well as with neat nicely designed projects but few of these and more of the nightmare ones)
  14 2014-05-12 00:04:28 <sipa> yeah, c++ has so many features that based on which ones you favor, you tend to get very different coding styles
  15 2014-05-12 00:04:37 <sipa> which is a bad thing, imho
  16 2014-05-12 00:04:54 Application has joined
  17 2014-05-12 00:05:04 <GAit> and refactoring takes more time imho than with other langs
  18 2014-05-12 00:05:19 <sipa> ever tried refactoring perl? :p
  19 2014-05-12 00:05:25 <GAit> gdb can be flacky too
  20 2014-05-12 00:05:27 <GAit> yes, and i failed
  21 2014-05-12 00:05:32 <sipa> haha!
  22 2014-05-12 00:05:44 AndyOfiesh has joined
  23 2014-05-12 00:06:34 <GAit> i was given a job to refactor some perloid or reimplement it in java because it was leaking like mad. I eneded up splitting and creating an new process regularly so it would clear the memory on exit. I just couldn't understand what it did. Lots of regexes and shifts and implicit perl stuff from a non programmer
  24 2014-05-12 00:06:56 <GAit> grown over 5 years at some company
  25 2014-05-12 00:07:03 <GAit> oh yeah it was a log parser
  26 2014-05-12 00:07:17 * sipa -> zZzZ
  27 2014-05-12 00:07:20 <AndyOfiesh> I heard that there is a way to disable difficulty checks on an Testnet in a Box. What's the trick?
  28 2014-05-12 00:07:35 <sipa> you mean -regtest
  29 2014-05-12 00:08:48 <AndyOfiesh> perhaps, I'm just trying to generate enough blocks to write some tests against without wating a day
  30 2014-05-12 00:08:57 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  31 2014-05-12 00:09:22 <GAit> AndyOfiesh: yeah you want to run regtest and setgenerate true
  32 2014-05-12 00:09:40 <AndyOfiesh> Thanks for the tip, I will try that
  33 2014-05-12 00:09:41 ericmuyser has joined
  34 2014-05-12 00:13:38 Vitalik_ has joined
  35 2014-05-12 00:14:19 Application has joined
  36 2014-05-12 00:14:20 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  37 2014-05-12 00:16:58 lalopalo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  38 2014-05-12 00:17:27 Vitalik__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  39 2014-05-12 00:20:19 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
  40 2014-05-12 00:26:17 Forex has joined
  41 2014-05-12 00:26:38 AnoAnon has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  42 2014-05-12 00:26:59 grau has joined
  43 2014-05-12 00:27:13 AnoAnon has joined
  44 2014-05-12 00:27:33 <Forex> hello
  45 2014-05-12 00:28:14 sidneyz has joined
  46 2014-05-12 00:28:35 oPen_syLar has joined
  47 2014-05-12 00:36:29 oPen_syLar has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  48 2014-05-12 00:40:22 throckmortonsign has joined
  49 2014-05-12 00:41:05 hmsimha has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  50 2014-05-12 00:41:35 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  51 2014-05-12 00:42:34 akstunt600 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  52 2014-05-12 00:42:36 throckmortonsign has quit (Client Quit)
  53 2014-05-12 00:44:43 slug23_____ has joined
  54 2014-05-12 00:44:44 slug23____ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  55 2014-05-12 00:45:05 phantomspark has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  56 2014-05-12 00:45:59 MolokoDeck has joined
  57 2014-05-12 00:46:03 anarchystar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  58 2014-05-12 00:46:04 kiddouk_ has joined
  59 2014-05-12 00:46:05 kiddouk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  60 2014-05-12 00:46:05 ebfull has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  61 2014-05-12 00:46:15 phantomspark has joined
  62 2014-05-12 00:46:24 ebfull has joined
  63 2014-05-12 00:46:34 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  64 2014-05-12 00:46:37 Insti has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  65 2014-05-12 00:46:56 anarchystar has joined
  66 2014-05-12 00:46:56 Insti has joined
  67 2014-05-12 00:46:57 liori has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  68 2014-05-12 00:46:57 phantomcircuit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  69 2014-05-12 00:47:20 anarchystar is now known as Guest46078
  70 2014-05-12 00:47:40 fun has joined
  71 2014-05-12 00:47:57 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  72 2014-05-12 00:48:16 <fun> hi, where I can find formula to derive diff from hashrate ? :)
  73 2014-05-12 00:48:19 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  74 2014-05-12 00:48:38 tonikt has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  75 2014-05-12 00:48:49 liori has joined
  76 2014-05-12 00:48:55 tonikt has joined
  77 2014-05-12 00:49:03 amiller has joined
  78 2014-05-12 00:49:17 Guest33406 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  79 2014-05-12 00:49:24 <fun> so far i found formula to calc nr of hashesh needed to solve 1 block at diff D  D *2**32 / 600
  80 2014-05-12 00:49:26 <fun> :)
  81 2014-05-12 00:50:01 phantomcircuit has joined
  82 2014-05-12 00:50:36 abossard__ has joined
  83 2014-05-12 00:51:03 Guest82387 has joined
  84 2014-05-12 00:51:08 wereHamster has joined
  85 2014-05-12 00:51:20 abrkn has joined
  86 2014-05-12 00:51:52 wereHams1er has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  87 2014-05-12 00:52:30 n0g4n0o has joined
  88 2014-05-12 00:52:33 n0g4n0o has quit (Excess Flood)
  89 2014-05-12 00:52:43 n0g4n0o has joined
  90 2014-05-12 00:53:04 saracen_ has joined
  91 2014-05-12 00:53:14 dugo_ has joined
  92 2014-05-12 00:53:24 pjorrit has joined
  93 2014-05-12 00:53:38 clopez has quit (Disconnected by services)
  94 2014-05-12 00:53:55 saracen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  95 2014-05-12 00:53:56 dugo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  96 2014-05-12 00:53:56 nba_btchip has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  97 2014-05-12 00:53:56 abossard_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  98 2014-05-12 00:53:56 pjorrit_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  99 2014-05-12 00:53:56 haigent has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 100 2014-05-12 00:53:56 nirvashz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 101 2014-05-12 00:53:57 BGL has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 102 2014-05-12 00:53:57 ArthurNumba3 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 103 2014-05-12 00:53:57 Fistful_of_Coins has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 104 2014-05-12 00:53:57 nba_btchip has joined
 105 2014-05-12 00:53:58 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 106 2014-05-12 00:53:58 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 107 2014-05-12 00:53:58 mhanne has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 108 2014-05-12 00:54:23 clopez_ has joined
 109 2014-05-12 00:54:33 ArthurNumba3 has joined
 110 2014-05-12 00:54:37 johnsoft has joined
 111 2014-05-12 00:54:43 digitalmagus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 112 2014-05-12 00:54:44 nsh has joined
 113 2014-05-12 00:54:55 mhanne has joined
 114 2014-05-12 00:54:57 implr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 115 2014-05-12 00:54:57 lalopalo has joined
 116 2014-05-12 00:55:02 digitalmagus has joined
 117 2014-05-12 00:55:03 Fistful_of_Coins has joined
 118 2014-05-12 00:55:24 haigent has joined
 119 2014-05-12 00:55:46 implr has joined
 120 2014-05-12 00:57:28 jokosh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 121 2014-05-12 00:57:41 jokosh has joined
 122 2014-05-12 00:57:42 <fun> ok got it
 123 2014-05-12 00:57:42 <fun> ty
 124 2014-05-12 00:57:43 <fun> :d
 125 2014-05-12 00:57:45 fun has left ()
 126 2014-05-12 00:58:46 zzyzx has joined
 127 2014-05-12 00:59:16 eoss has joined
 128 2014-05-12 00:59:59 akstunt600 has joined
 129 2014-05-12 01:01:44 roidster has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 130 2014-05-12 01:01:57 zzyzx is now known as roidster
 131 2014-05-12 01:02:27 roidster is now known as Guest24978
 132 2014-05-12 01:06:54 rdbell has quit (Quit: rdbell)
 133 2014-05-12 01:08:08 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 134 2014-05-12 01:08:55 AnoAnon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 135 2014-05-12 01:10:14 brson has joined
 136 2014-05-12 01:10:18 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 137 2014-05-12 01:11:36 Belkaar_ has joined
 138 2014-05-12 01:11:48 JackH has quit (Quit: JackH)
 139 2014-05-12 01:12:33 non2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 140 2014-05-12 01:13:39 Krellan has joined
 141 2014-05-12 01:13:44 jeewee1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 142 2014-05-12 01:14:22 JStoker has quit (Killed (hobana.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
 143 2014-05-12 01:14:40 JStoker has joined
 144 2014-05-12 01:15:11 Eglerion has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
 145 2014-05-12 01:15:42 not_aceat64 has joined
 146 2014-05-12 01:17:05 77CAAJM9X has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 147 2014-05-12 01:17:05 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 148 2014-05-12 01:17:05 phedny has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 149 2014-05-12 01:17:05 aceat64 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 150 2014-05-12 01:17:05 peddy has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 151 2014-05-12 01:17:19 phedny has joined
 152 2014-05-12 01:17:25 Wrenuld has joined
 153 2014-05-12 01:18:13 jeewee has joined
 154 2014-05-12 01:18:46 Jamesz is now known as JZavala
 155 2014-05-12 01:21:18 peddy has joined
 156 2014-05-12 01:22:56 saizai has joined
 157 2014-05-12 01:24:53 BGL has joined
 158 2014-05-12 01:25:13 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 159 2014-05-12 01:26:38 <saizai> do BF people hang out here?
 160 2014-05-12 01:27:48 <gwillen> saizai: I don't think they do regularly, but it's possible some are lurking
 161 2014-05-12 01:27:57 <saizai> gwillen: *nod*
 162 2014-05-12 01:28:17 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 163 2014-05-12 01:28:19 <saizai> I sent gavin, jon, & peter an email, but it’d be nice to talk to them directly
 164 2014-05-12 01:29:12 ConvivialMatt has joined
 165 2014-05-12 01:29:25 <gwillen> saizai: gavin appears on IRC periodically though he doesn't appear to be here now
 166 2014-05-12 01:29:33 * saizai nods
 167 2014-05-12 01:29:38 <saizai> I’ve talked with him before
 168 2014-05-12 01:29:40 <gwillen> saizai: the others probably not as much, as far as I know
 169 2014-05-12 01:29:41 * gwillen nods
 170 2014-05-12 01:30:11 <saizai> well, hopefully they read their email
 171 2014-05-12 01:42:52 Guest46078 is now known as anarchystar
 172 2014-05-12 01:42:59 anarchystar has quit (Changing host)
 173 2014-05-12 01:42:59 anarchystar has joined
 174 2014-05-12 01:42:59 anarchystar has quit (Changing host)
 175 2014-05-12 01:43:00 anarchystar has joined
 176 2014-05-12 01:43:50 <GAit> what do you guys think about http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.bitcoin.devel/5352 , amending bip0070 to add Access control allow origin ?
 177 2014-05-12 01:44:59 <GAit> guys or girls of course
 178 2014-05-12 01:45:25 lalopalo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 179 2014-05-12 01:46:59 rdbell has joined
 180 2014-05-12 01:47:21 Ogig has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
 181 2014-05-12 01:48:04 Ogig has joined
 182 2014-05-12 01:49:15 KawalGrover has joined
 183 2014-05-12 01:50:30 zcopley has joined
 184 2014-05-12 01:50:33 CodeShar_ has joined
 185 2014-05-12 01:51:02 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 186 2014-05-12 01:51:21 roybadam1 has joined
 187 2014-05-12 01:51:25 ItSANgo_ has joined
 188 2014-05-12 01:51:29 one_zero has joined
 189 2014-05-12 01:51:31 dfletcher_ has joined
 190 2014-05-12 01:51:35 saizai_ has joined
 191 2014-05-12 01:51:39 nOgAnOo has joined
 192 2014-05-12 01:51:46 gribble has quit (Disconnected by services)
 193 2014-05-12 01:51:46 Forex1 has joined
 194 2014-05-12 01:51:59 Clown has joined
 195 2014-05-12 01:51:59 Clown has quit (Changing host)
 196 2014-05-12 01:51:59 Clown has joined
 197 2014-05-12 01:51:59  has quit (Clown|!Clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Killed (wilhelm.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
 198 2014-05-12 01:51:59 Clown is now known as |Clown|
 199 2014-05-12 01:51:59 richcollins_ has joined
 200 2014-05-12 01:52:00 legerde has joined
 201 2014-05-12 01:52:01 roconnor_ has joined
 202 2014-05-12 01:52:06 Forex1 has left ()
 203 2014-05-12 01:52:07 posita1 has joined
 204 2014-05-12 01:52:56 brson has joined
 205 2014-05-12 01:53:04 postpre has joined
 206 2014-05-12 01:53:09 yeshuah_ has joined
 207 2014-05-12 01:53:22 clopez has joined
 208 2014-05-12 01:53:55 richcollins has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 209 2014-05-12 01:53:56 wizkid057 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 210 2014-05-12 01:53:56 haigent has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 211 2014-05-12 01:53:57 ClarusCogitatio has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 212 2014-05-12 01:53:57 boldfield has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 213 2014-05-12 01:53:57 jaakkos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 214 2014-05-12 01:53:57 saizai has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 215 2014-05-12 01:53:57 joedoe- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 216 2014-05-12 01:53:57 coingenuity has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 217 2014-05-12 01:53:57 CodeShark has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 218 2014-05-12 01:53:58 pierce has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 219 2014-05-12 01:53:58 jeffj has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 220 2014-05-12 01:53:58 roybadami has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 221 2014-05-12 01:53:58 donvino has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 222 2014-05-12 01:53:59 Ogig has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 223 2014-05-12 01:53:59 MKCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 224 2014-05-12 01:53:59 prepost has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 225 2014-05-12 01:53:59 napedia has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 226 2014-05-12 01:54:00 jouke has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 227 2014-05-12 01:54:00 davec has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 228 2014-05-12 01:54:01 richcollins_ is now known as richcollins
 229 2014-05-12 01:54:01 saizai_ is now known as saizai
 230 2014-05-12 01:54:10 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 231 2014-05-12 01:54:10 berndj-blackout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 232 2014-05-12 01:54:29 justanotheruser1 has joined
 233 2014-05-12 01:54:33 haigent has joined
 234 2014-05-12 01:54:37 nowan_ has joined
 235 2014-05-12 01:54:46 pierce has joined
 236 2014-05-12 01:55:07 Forex has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 237 2014-05-12 01:55:07 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 238 2014-05-12 01:55:07 posita has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 239 2014-05-12 01:55:07 n0g4n0o has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 240 2014-05-12 01:55:08 indy has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 241 2014-05-12 01:55:08 cris has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 242 2014-05-12 01:55:08 ivan\ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 243 2014-05-12 01:55:08 donpillou has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 244 2014-05-12 01:55:08 elichai2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 245 2014-05-12 01:55:09 nowan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 246 2014-05-12 01:55:09 epscy has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 247 2014-05-12 01:55:09 ItSAN____ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 248 2014-05-12 01:55:09 yeshuah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 249 2014-05-12 01:55:10 JyZyXEL has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 250 2014-05-12 01:55:10 clopez_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 251 2014-05-12 01:55:10 Aido has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 252 2014-05-12 01:55:10 dfletcher has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 253 2014-05-12 01:55:10 justanotheruser has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 254 2014-05-12 01:55:11 digitalmagus8 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 255 2014-05-12 01:55:11 rboyd_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 256 2014-05-12 01:55:11 lady_awk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 257 2014-05-12 01:55:12 jaakkos_ has joined
 258 2014-05-12 01:55:12 Traubert has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 259 2014-05-12 01:55:13 Aido_ has joined
 260 2014-05-12 01:55:13 jeffj has joined
 261 2014-05-12 01:55:13 dfletcher_ is now known as dfletcher
 262 2014-05-12 01:55:13 Traubert_ has joined
 263 2014-05-12 01:55:16 jouke has joined
 264 2014-05-12 01:55:17 rboyd has joined
 265 2014-05-12 01:55:26 davec has joined
 266 2014-05-12 01:55:34 JyZyXEL has joined
 267 2014-05-12 01:56:06 digitalmagus8 has joined
 268 2014-05-12 01:56:31 gribble has joined
 269 2014-05-12 01:56:38 lalopalo has joined
 270 2014-05-12 01:57:48 yeshuah_ is now known as yeshuah
 271 2014-05-12 01:57:53 cris has joined
 272 2014-05-12 01:58:23 ClarusCogitatio has joined
 273 2014-05-12 01:58:37 ebfull has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 274 2014-05-12 01:58:38 coingenuity has joined
 275 2014-05-12 01:58:38 coingenuity has quit (Changing host)
 276 2014-05-12 01:58:38 coingenuity has joined
 277 2014-05-12 01:58:56 ivan\ has joined
 278 2014-05-12 01:59:01 elichai2 has joined
 279 2014-05-12 01:59:07 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 280 2014-05-12 01:59:13 boldfield has joined
 281 2014-05-12 01:59:13 berndj-blackout has joined
 282 2014-05-12 01:59:41 AndyOfiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 283 2014-05-12 02:00:05 akstunt600 has joined
 284 2014-05-12 02:00:49 indy has joined
 285 2014-05-12 02:02:46 greenspa has joined
 286 2014-05-12 02:03:25 wizkid057 has joined
 287 2014-05-12 02:05:29 epscy has joined
 288 2014-05-12 02:05:43 donvino has joined
 289 2014-05-12 02:05:55 joedoe- has joined
 290 2014-05-12 02:06:04 Ogig has joined
 291 2014-05-12 02:06:37 greenspa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 292 2014-05-12 02:06:46 lady_awk has joined
 293 2014-05-12 02:07:10 saizai has quit (Quit: saizai)
 294 2014-05-12 02:07:10 KawalGrover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 295 2014-05-12 02:07:12 MKCoin has joined
 296 2014-05-12 02:10:58 nsh has joined
 297 2014-05-12 02:16:21 zcopley has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 298 2014-05-12 02:17:06 mpmcsleep has joined
 299 2014-05-12 02:17:09 hmsimha has joined
 300 2014-05-12 02:17:54 <legerde> Im reading about the payment protocol.   I was pointed to look at this earlier today if I wanted to have refund addresses.  My question is the status of the payment protocol.  I see that bitcoin-qt supposedly supports/will support this.
 301 2014-05-12 02:18:18 <legerde> What kind of merchant support exists for the payment protocol?
 302 2014-05-12 02:19:06 sidneyz has quit (Quit: sidneyz)
 303 2014-05-12 02:19:09 <legerde> I guess I am hoping for a pre-existing python library to jump start this support for me.
 304 2014-05-12 02:19:26 <survic> bitpay supports it, as does bitcoin core
 305 2014-05-12 02:19:29 grau has joined
 306 2014-05-12 02:19:59 <legerde> By bitcoin core I assume you are talking about bitcoind daemon with json-rpc?
 307 2014-05-12 02:19:59 mpmcsleep is now known as mpmc_
 308 2014-05-12 02:21:11 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 309 2014-05-12 02:22:12 mpmc_ has quit ()
 310 2014-05-12 02:22:23 <survic> bitcoin core is the GUI (previously Bitcoin-QT)
 311 2014-05-12 02:23:10 sidneyz has joined
 312 2014-05-12 02:23:13 <legerde> Thank you.   Ill go look into that.  I am hoping to figure out how to make a payment request from python.
 313 2014-05-12 02:24:04 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 314 2014-05-12 02:24:54 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
 315 2014-05-12 02:26:47 LjL-Tablet has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 316 2014-05-12 02:27:38 phantomspark has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 317 2014-05-12 02:27:39 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
 318 2014-05-12 02:28:40 <uiop> "bitcoin core" is the gui?! (?)
 319 2014-05-12 02:30:59 hmsimha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 320 2014-05-12 02:31:25 cadaver has joined
 321 2014-05-12 02:31:28 Subo1977 has joined
 322 2014-05-12 02:32:30 pooler has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
 323 2014-05-12 02:33:46 <survic> that was my understanding. QT was rebranded to Core, bitcoind stays bitcoind
 324 2014-05-12 02:34:01 <uiop> ah, gotcha.
 325 2014-05-12 02:35:18 da2ce7 has joined
 326 2014-05-12 02:36:03 Subo1977_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 327 2014-05-12 02:45:44 LjL-Tablet has joined
 328 2014-05-12 02:49:25 pooler has joined
 329 2014-05-12 02:51:30 legerde has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 330 2014-05-12 02:51:36 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 331 2014-05-12 02:52:39 akstunt600 has joined
 332 2014-05-12 02:52:44 Namworld has joined
 333 2014-05-12 02:54:56 greenspa has joined
 334 2014-05-12 02:55:37 greenspa has left ()
 335 2014-05-12 02:55:55 stapler is now known as zzz!stapler117@c-98-222-54-185.hsd1.il.comcast.net|stapler117
 336 2014-05-12 02:55:57 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 337 2014-05-12 02:56:13 johnsoft has joined
 338 2014-05-12 02:57:24 coryfields has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 339 2014-05-12 02:57:39 roconnor_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 340 2014-05-12 02:58:43 adam3us has joined
 341 2014-05-12 02:59:33 coryfields has joined
 342 2014-05-12 02:59:53 <survic> has there ever been a push by the core developers to hide key importing and exporting tools from user view a bit more?
 343 2014-05-12 03:00:42 <gwillen> survic: I definitely recall it being discussed.
 344 2014-05-12 03:00:48 <survic> this is the second time today that I've had to help somebody out with disaster recovery due to the bitcoin core wallet and blockchain.info making the tools a little bit too user friendly.
 345 2014-05-12 03:00:58 <survic> total loss, around 26BTC.
 346 2014-05-12 03:01:17 <gwillen> This comes up periodically, and I think a number of people agree that it would be good to hide that behind an 'advanced' setting.
 347 2014-05-12 03:01:37 <survic> it's maddening because I can't help any of these people
 348 2014-05-12 03:01:42 eristisk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 349 2014-05-12 03:01:51 <survic> yeah sorry, you just fucked up and lost $10,000
 350 2014-05-12 03:01:51 <gwillen> :-(
 351 2014-05-12 03:02:03 <gwillen> survic: are these "paper wallet" cases?
 352 2014-05-12 03:02:03 <survic> why was the tool there for me to use then?
 353 2014-05-12 03:02:09 <gwillen> survic: import, transfer, destroy?
 354 2014-05-12 03:02:44 <survic> gwillen: no, people wanting to micro manage funds. there's probably some guide or tutorial telling people that if they export the private key that it's safe forever.
 355 2014-05-12 03:02:45 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 356 2014-05-12 03:03:18 <gwillen> huh, that one's new to me.... usually this comes up because people put all their funds in a paper wallet, import it, send something, and then assume the rest is still 'in' the original address (not understanding change addresses) and destroy the wallet that did the import
 357 2014-05-12 03:03:39 <survic> I know that one, I've done one of those too.
 358 2014-05-12 03:03:42 <gwillen> :-(
 359 2014-05-12 03:03:45 <buZz> ppl dont get the difference between accounts and addresses
 360 2014-05-12 03:03:59 <gwillen> I think removal of 'accounts' has also been discussed
 361 2014-05-12 03:04:04 <survic> 6BTC today was somebody misunderstanding which key is the private key and importing it as a watch only wallet into blockchain.info.
 362 2014-05-12 03:04:04 johnsoft has joined
 363 2014-05-12 03:04:15 <gwillen> because they are purely an account tool, and do not correspond to addresses in any way, and this confuses the shit out of people
 364 2014-05-12 03:04:19 <gwillen> accounting tool*
 365 2014-05-12 03:04:21 ConvivialMatt has quit (Quit: ConvivialMatt)
 366 2014-05-12 03:04:21 Aido has joined
 367 2014-05-12 03:04:29 <gmaxwell> survic: they're pretty hidden now, there is no GUI for them! :(
 368 2014-05-12 03:04:36 <survic> no sorry, you can see your funds there but you'll never be able to spend them again. that's $3000 and all of your money down the hole.
 369 2014-05-12 03:04:46 <buZz> gwillen: but i like them as accounting tool :(
 370 2014-05-12 03:04:53 <gwillen> survic: hm, per gmaxwell's comment, is it possible they were using an old version of the client?
 371 2014-05-12 03:05:09 <gwillen> buZz: but as you say, people don't understand them at all
 372 2014-05-12 03:05:23 <buZz> yeah ..
 373 2014-05-12 03:05:27 <gwillen> buZz: people assume that you put an address in an account, and when you spend from that account you spend from that address
 374 2014-05-12 03:05:46 <gmaxwell> we've never exposed import/export in the GUI, except by opening the debugging console, specifically because its such a footgun.
 375 2014-05-12 03:05:54 <survic> gmaxwell: no, there's the developer console and that's enough. people will follow instructions from bitcointalk and lose their funds through that. I know it's useful to have it there for the developers, but make a switch for it at compile time or something?
 376 2014-05-12 03:06:14 <buZz> its hard to explain to ppl how you dont have the same 'from' address everytime
 377 2014-05-12 03:06:15 <gmaxwell> maybe if it gave you more of a warning that it was dangerous?
 378 2014-05-12 03:06:24 Aido_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 379 2014-05-12 03:06:31 <survic> please.
 380 2014-05-12 03:07:09 <gmaxwell> buZz: it's mostly hard because of things like blockexplorer presenting things as though there were from addresses at all. If they didn't it's pretty easy to accept "bitcoin transactions don't have a from field".
 381 2014-05-12 03:07:17 <gmaxwell> survic: Hm. Not quite sure how to do that. :-/
 382 2014-05-12 03:08:26 <survic> gmaxwell: big red letters in the console. USING THIS COMMAND WILL CAUSE YOU TO LOSE YOUR FUNDS IF OPERATED INCORRECTLY. type "yes I want to shoot myself in the ass" to enable this command.
 383 2014-05-12 03:08:35 <gwillen> survic: you know people will do it anyway
 384 2014-05-12 03:08:47 <gwillen> survic: although I agree with making them type out "I am aware that etc."
 385 2014-05-12 03:08:50 <survic> it'll stop people from thinking it's a normal action to be doing.
 386 2014-05-12 03:08:53 * gwillen nods
 387 2014-05-12 03:09:14 <survic> people think this is some causal action. aw yeah just moving this key. they don't know how dangerous it is.
 388 2014-05-12 03:09:19 * gwillen nods
 389 2014-05-12 03:09:35 <gmaxwell> They even follow instructions for this stuff, written by people who are also invinciple educatiors of spherical infinitely attentive genuises.
 390 2014-05-12 03:09:43 <gwillen> survic: where does the actual loss come in (other than for the watch-only guy, which I understand) -- export a key, then delete the rest of the wallet?
 391 2014-05-12 03:10:15 <gwillen> gmaxwell: it's like the git tutorials that throw around "reset --hard" as though it was a totally normal thing to be doing
 392 2014-05-12 03:10:18 <gwillen> gmaxwell: drives me insane
 393 2014-05-12 03:10:59 <survic> gwillen: yep. export the private keys, make a backup of one of them after being told that wallets only need one private key, then blast the wallet from the face of the earth
 394 2014-05-12 03:11:12 <buZz> maybe the gui could just show the amount of keys the wallet holds
 395 2014-05-12 03:11:48 <gwillen> survic: so perhaps it would _specifically_ help to have the developer console make you type out "I understand that it is always a bad idea to delete a wallet even if I think it has no funds in it, even if someone on the Internet told me to" :-P
 396 2014-05-12 03:12:04 <gwillen> survic: that seems to be the specific common failure mode in most or all of these
 397 2014-05-12 03:12:31 <survic> no, that's not enough. it needs to say that messing with private keys is dangerous no matter what the situation.
 398 2014-05-12 03:12:43 <gmaxwell> there really should be some wallet surrender service or something where you don't delete your wallet, you surrender it... and then you can get it back for N hours (and after that any other funds go to the service). :)
 399 2014-05-12 03:12:44 <gwillen> well, the problem is, if your warning is too generic people will ignore it
 400 2014-05-12 03:12:48 <buZz> if ppl just see in the status bar that it has 893742 keys, it would make them secondguess if they exported the right one
 401 2014-05-12 03:13:01 <uiop> survic: wow, 26btc. that sucks. how did the user do it? thought he exported private key, erased data, realized had not in fact exported private key?
 402 2014-05-12 03:13:02 <gwillen> your warning needs to be specific enough that people think it applies to them
 403 2014-05-12 03:13:06 <survic> this is a $13,000 lesson. it had better be a fucking good message.
 404 2014-05-12 03:13:10 cadaver has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 405 2014-05-12 03:13:13 <gwillen> if they think they know better they'll just click through
 406 2014-05-12 03:13:22 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 407 2014-05-12 03:13:29 <gwillen> but if the warning specifically mentions something they're about to do, and the reason they're about to do it, they might pause
 408 2014-05-12 03:13:34 <survic> uiop: two different incidents. that, and messing up with watch only addresses.
 409 2014-05-12 03:14:03 johnsoft has joined
 410 2014-05-12 03:14:33 <gwillen> survic: I think one possible good message amounts to "you should not ever delete a wallet; if you think you want to delete a wallet, you are wrong; here is a wiki page about why you should never delete a wallet, even if you think it's empty"
 411 2014-05-12 03:14:43 <gmaxwell> I've seen pepole make the watch only mistake before.  Though in that case they copy and pasted the address out of the address book into a bc.i wallet, saw the funds show up... and deleted their qt wallet. No privkey import/export involved.
 412 2014-05-12 03:14:55 <gwillen> I mean, some people you just can't help
 413 2014-05-12 03:15:03 <jcorgan> meh.  ultimately you can't save determined people from themselves.
 414 2014-05-12 03:15:06 <gwillen> and if they never open the console it's hard to imagine how you could warn them
 415 2014-05-12 03:15:27 <survic> eh. why have we got a culture where people ever see the private keys? it's ridiulous
 416 2014-05-12 03:15:28 <gmaxwell> well it's not the indiviugal people, in general this stuff is more of a hazard than it could be; and importantly way more of a hazard than anything in traditional banking is.
 417 2014-05-12 03:15:32 <gwillen> I do think that making someone type out a message is one of the few ways to ACTUALLY get them to think about your warning before they use the console
 418 2014-05-12 03:15:41 <gwillen> any message you SHOW them will go in one ear and out the other
 419 2014-05-12 03:15:50 <gwillen> but if you make them type it out, you have one chance to actually reach them
 420 2014-05-12 03:15:54 <andytoshi> will the payment protocol require x509 keys and stuff, or will normal people be able to send money to each other with it?
 421 2014-05-12 03:15:59 <gwillen> so I think that's probably a good gate to put on the dev console
 422 2014-05-12 03:16:05 <andytoshi> i.e. can we move toward a situation where nobod ever sees addresses
 423 2014-05-12 03:16:09 <gmaxwell> gwillen: I mean people try to do things I think are really inadvisable so agressively that they write software to do it... dunno that harder warning messages help.
 424 2014-05-12 03:16:19 <survic> gwillen: agreed. it needs a situation where they have to type out the footgun line.
 425 2014-05-12 03:16:37 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: they aren't required. But you can't really use it to recieve payments without a webserver and the skill to use it.
 426 2014-05-12 03:16:42 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I mean, for reference, I have -- in scripts I wrote _for myself_ to use -- done the "make the user type a message" trick
 427 2014-05-12 03:16:46 <andytoshi> every time i've had to type a footgun line, i've typo'd it and then i was extra careful :)
 428 2014-05-12 03:16:48 <gwillen> it really does force you to stop and think about what your'e doing
 429 2014-05-12 03:16:50 <survic> if you want me to have a shot at your other wallet with the forgotten password, we can do that but only under the following conditions.
 430 2014-05-12 03:16:53 <survic> uh
 431 2014-05-12 03:16:58 <gwillen> I like the phrase "footgun line" for this technique
 432 2014-05-12 03:17:00 <gmaxwell> (well I suppose you can carry around payment requests as files, but none of the software sets it up to make that easy right now)
 433 2014-05-12 03:17:01 <survic> wrong window.
 434 2014-05-12 03:17:12 <midnightmagic> well. one more reason not to bother using the gui :)
 435 2014-05-12 03:17:27 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: would PRs to the effect of making bitcoin core be such a server be considered?
 436 2014-05-12 03:17:33 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 437 2014-05-12 03:17:49 <gwillen> survic: anyway, I'd encourage you to write a patch adding a footgun prompt to the dev console; I'm not a bitcoin dev but I'd help you push for inclusion, and tune the wording of the message
 438 2014-05-12 03:17:54 <gmaxwell> make it be a public facing webserver errrr... uh. fork() one, perhaps.
 439 2014-05-12 03:18:42 <andytoshi> actually scrap that, i think this is one of those things where we want alternate wallets to do it first so we can learn the UI stuff
 440 2014-05-12 03:18:56 <gmaxwell> gwillen: you can make them think but they think they understand. In any case, I'm fine with adding more warnings but there isn't an obvious clean way to do it here. I don't really want to put a nasty warning over the whole debug console, as its how you get to things like getinfo. And beyond that its just an RPC interface.
 441 2014-05-12 03:19:07 <survic> gwillen: I'll out some thought into it.
 442 2014-05-12 03:19:26 <gwillen> gmaxwell: *sigh*, yeah... hmm.
 443 2014-05-12 03:19:38 <gwillen> Perhaps an extra prompt for import/export? Not sure. :-\
 444 2014-05-12 03:19:39 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: you also have to consider the MITM vulnerability.
 445 2014-05-12 03:19:47 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: yeah :/
 446 2014-05-12 03:20:02 * uiop is reminded of the classic "sudo rm -rf /<SPACE>etc/blah.txt"  #oh shit!
 447 2014-05-12 03:20:07 <gwillen> gmaxwell: thinking they understand is not a binary thing... the more you can reach the better
 448 2014-05-12 03:20:20 <gwillen> gmaxwell: but I understand about not making safe operations require you to jump through hoops
 449 2014-05-12 03:20:36 <andytoshi> gwillen: maybe there should be a hidden field in the RPC interface to indicate that the debug window is being used, and this would enable more agressive help text and extra required footgun texts
 450 2014-05-12 03:21:27 <gwillen> andytoshi: well, but now that the RPC interface has been mentioned, I realize that that is a whole _other_ footgun people can use, with no prompting
 451 2014-05-12 03:21:36 <gwillen> andytoshi: it's not really any harder than using the console
 452 2014-05-12 03:21:53 <andytoshi> i think it's harder
 453 2014-05-12 03:22:07 <gwillen> so I guess we have one thing going for us here, which is that the tutorials are not adversairal
 454 2014-05-12 03:22:09 <gmaxwell> the problem is that the risk with the private key handling is a bit abstract. It's not like a nice concrete risk like "showing this data on your screen will enable nsa brainwave monitors to see it"... it's more that "in our expirence, people, even expirenced, ones make boneheaded moves that start out with this step. Statistically, doom is likely in your future if you continue." To which the user thinks "okay, I won't make any boneheaded ...
 455 2014-05-12 03:22:09 <andytoshi> you have to open a command shell for one, figure out where the bitcoind binary is for another
 456 2014-05-12 03:22:15 <gmaxwell> ... moves."
 457 2014-05-12 03:22:33 <gmaxwell> we have the console because using the rpc was basically impossibly hard for a lot of windows and mac users. :)
 458 2014-05-12 03:22:34 <gwillen> gmaxwell: so this is why I was focusing on warning against the specific act of deleting a wallet, and asserting that it is never a correct operation
 459 2014-05-12 03:22:40 <andytoshi> uiop: i remember coming home from school one day and my dad said, "i think i broke your computer... i accidentally deleted /usr/share/..."
 460 2014-05-12 03:22:50 <andytoshi> and he said it as though he thought the computer might still work :)
 461 2014-05-12 03:22:52 <gwillen> gmaxwell: because as far as I know it's not, AND it's a very concrete action, which people can _see_ why it would be dangerous
 462 2014-05-12 03:23:01 <gwillen> gmaxwell: all in contrast to key import/export, which is harder to see the risk of
 463 2014-05-12 03:23:08 <gmaxwell> yes, I agree with that. Though survic points out that the risk isn't limited to that.
 464 2014-05-12 03:23:17 zcopley has joined
 465 2014-05-12 03:23:21 <gwillen> what was the other risk that didn't involve deleting a wallet?
 466 2014-05-12 03:23:44 <gwillen> I think both of survic's cases were wallet deletions, it's just that the means by which the user convinced themselves it was ok was different in each case
 467 2014-05-12 03:23:46 <gmaxwell> There are a bunch, A fun one from an expirenced user around here was that they _imported_ a private key from some random source. Then later picked an address from the address book to have someone else send funds to... and the funds vanished.
 468 2014-05-12 03:23:55 <gwillen> .... D:
 469 2014-05-12 03:24:00 <survic> gmaxwell: importing an address as watch-only is one.
 470 2014-05-12 03:24:00 <gwillen> okay, _that_ is a footgun I had forgotten about
 471 2014-05-12 03:24:07 <gmaxwell> (we've reduced that risk by making it harder to reuse addresses in the UI)
 472 2014-05-12 03:24:38 <gwillen> you could treat showing the address of an imported key as a dangerous action that requires a warning
 473 2014-05-12 03:24:41 <gwillen> but that one's really abstract :-\
 474 2014-05-12 03:25:08 <survic> (anybody reading the logs and saw my /window mess up before, I decided not to help the user out with the password, I redirected them to walletrecoveryservices.com rather than take on any personal risk)
 475 2014-05-12 03:25:12 <gmaxwell> really depends on where that came from, I think we've mostly done enough there... and mostly surrived the complaints for making the address reuse workflow harder.
 476 2014-05-12 03:25:15 <uiop> andytoshi: at least it wasn't /home
 477 2014-05-12 03:25:30 <andytoshi> uiop: yeah, that was exactly my thought
 478 2014-05-12 03:25:50 ryanxcharles has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 479 2014-05-12 03:26:07 <gmaxwell> gwillen: I've seen people get robbed by exporting private keys and pasting them in evil websites. ("turn your private key into a QR code! encrypted!")
 480 2014-05-12 03:26:26 <ganjafarmer> is there a bootstrap.dat for testnet3?
 481 2014-05-12 03:26:28 <survic> gmaxwell: now that's a footgun.
 482 2014-05-12 03:26:33 <gwillen> uiop: I once accidentally did a recursive chown of /home on a multiuser system
 483 2014-05-12 03:26:36 <gwillen> uiop: that was a bad day
 484 2014-05-12 03:26:54 <gmaxwell> ganjafarmer: why would there be? the testnet data weighs in at about 2gb or so.
 485 2014-05-12 03:26:54 <gwillen> that was the day I learned that you never operate on .*
 486 2014-05-12 03:27:15 <gwillen> gmaxwell: sigh :-\
 487 2014-05-12 03:27:27 <ganjafarmer> gmaxwell: im about 2 hours into syncing and have 50 more weeks to go. just hoping to speed it up.
 488 2014-05-12 03:27:29 <andytoshi> here's an analogy that i like (though i'm very tired) "your wallet is a cup of rice. you have to keep every rice secret and you can't ever lose any. don't take the lid of the damn rice"
 489 2014-05-12 03:27:30 <gmaxwell> hehe .foo .bar . .. .baz. :P
 490 2014-05-12 03:27:32 <survic> can you show me a screenshot / the text near where you are asked for this?
 491 2014-05-12 03:27:32 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I feel like "never share your private keys with anybody is another _relatively_ concrete thing to warn about
 492 2014-05-12 03:27:34 <survic> ahhh
 493 2014-05-12 03:27:36 <gwillen> gmaxwell: yep!
 494 2014-05-12 03:27:40 <survic> I really need to fix my bindings.
 495 2014-05-12 03:27:55 <gwillen> survic: heh!
 496 2014-05-12 03:28:00 <gmaxwell> gwillen: "I totally didn't give it to a person, I put it in this QR generator app"
 497 2014-05-12 03:28:06 <gwillen> gmaxwell: yeah, I know, I know
 498 2014-05-12 03:28:16 <gwillen> gmaxwell: people are idiots, news at 10
 499 2014-05-12 03:28:26 <uiop> gwillen: ouch. did you just "chmod 777 -R /home" and pretend it never happened? :)
 500 2014-05-12 03:28:29 <survic> I keep hitting an old shortcut for window changes which does nothing and then I spurt irrelevant crap into the wrong channel
 501 2014-05-12 03:28:33 venzen has joined
 502 2014-05-12 03:28:44 <gmaxwell> not idiots; rationally ignorant, but with hurestics which are ill fit for bitcoin at its current state of maturity.
 503 2014-05-12 03:28:44 <gwillen> uiop: haha, no, I was a student network admin... I was tasked with fixing them one by one
 504 2014-05-12 03:28:53 <gwillen> uiop: there were only dozens of users in total and I stopped it pretty fast
 505 2014-05-12 03:29:26 <gmaxwell> the real idiots have not yet, for the most part, found bitcoin. god help us.
 506 2014-05-12 03:29:28 <gwillen> uiop: some of them may have ended up with wrong-owner files, but since you can't chown-away files on Solaris, I assumed that in general all the contents of someone's homedir should be owned by them, and chowned it all back
 507 2014-05-12 03:29:36 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
 508 2014-05-12 03:29:44 <survic> gmaxwell: private keys should NEVER be shown to a user.
 509 2014-05-12 03:29:47 ConvivialMatt has joined
 510 2014-05-12 03:30:10 <gwillen> survic: this is the import/export feature in the console, though -- unless you take it away entirely, people will find it
 511 2014-05-12 03:30:13 <gmaxwell> survic: there are important recovery tasks where we need to get to them. They're not in the regular UI for a reason.
 512 2014-05-12 03:30:20 <gwillen> and this is actually a case where the tutorial IS adversarial, right
 513 2014-05-12 03:30:36 <gwillen> in the bitcointalk case where the tutorial writer is just stupid, making it hard enough will make it stop
 514 2014-05-12 03:30:42 <gwillen> but when the tutorial writer is actually malicious...
 515 2014-05-12 03:30:44 <gmaxwell> all handcapping it further will do is drive people to software will less socially responsible authors who won't care about this stuff at all.
 516 2014-05-12 03:30:57 <gwillen> gmaxwell: now _that_ I don't htink is true
 517 2014-05-12 03:31:02 <survic> gmaxwell: that's not what I mean. brainwallt.org/blockchain.org/bitaddress.org all show private keys and expect users to micro manage them. it's shown as a common thing to want to do.
 518 2014-05-12 03:31:04 <uiop> gwillen: ah yeah, chown on /home wouldn't be that bad
 519 2014-05-12 03:31:13 copumpkin is now known as ubiquipumpkin
 520 2014-05-12 03:31:15 <gwillen> for better or for worse, people do not pick software based on whether obscure features are good or easy to use, they pick based on whether it's shiny
 521 2014-05-12 03:31:23 <gwillen> taking away key import/export will not change the distribution of wallet software at all
 522 2014-05-12 03:31:27 <gmaxwell> Right, but ... well, you know my opinions there.
 523 2014-05-12 03:31:48 <gmaxwell> (to survic)
 524 2014-05-12 03:31:51 * gwillen ndo
 525 2014-05-12 03:32:01 <gwillen> uiop: yeah, it was not nearly as bad as it could have been
 526 2014-05-12 03:32:06 <survic> gmaxwell: I do.
 527 2014-05-12 03:32:14 <gwillen> uiop: I have only unix-footgunned badly about three times in my life, which honestly I'm pleased with how low that is
 528 2014-05-12 03:32:37 <survic> gwillen: bet one was with 'dd'
 529 2014-05-12 03:32:49 justanotheruser1 is now known as justanotheruser
 530 2014-05-12 03:32:51 <gwillen> ha, no, I have never footgunned with dd, because I would never run a dd without checking it thrice
 531 2014-05-12 03:33:02 justanotheruser has quit (Changing host)
 532 2014-05-12 03:33:02 justanotheruser has joined
 533 2014-05-12 03:33:41 <gwillen> the other two were an 'rm' that I mistyped at a stupid hour ("let's see, I want to remove the class files from my java project before I hand it in... rm *.java") and a truncated mv ("mv file1 file2 <ENTER>"... oops I forgot the destination dir.)
 534 2014-05-12 03:34:36 <survic> I did sudo rm -rf --no-preseve-root / on a production server because I got the wrong shell. that's probably my worst, but no where near $13k in damages. just red faces all around and a quick restore from backup.
 535 2014-05-12 03:34:39 GMP has joined
 536 2014-05-12 03:34:58 <gmaxwell> oh I've done the "destination directory omitted" thing before. Also the cat input | long pipeline | > input  ... why is the result zero bytes?
 537 2014-05-12 03:35:26 <uiop> gmaxwell: i hate that one.
 538 2014-05-12 03:35:41 <uiop> (dest dir omitted)
 539 2014-05-12 03:35:53 <andytoshi> my favorite is doing the up-up-enter dance to switch between vi and make, then i cp template.c real-work.c
 540 2014-05-12 03:36:08 <gmaxwell> in my dos days I'd found some probably malicious com file and set it aside for disassembly.. and then a week later forgot what it was and ran it... disk light went on and after a second I hit the power button.. it apparently had started zeroizing my disk... :-/ got it pretty early though.
 541 2014-05-12 03:36:09 <andytoshi> edit real-work.c, then hit up-up-enter to compile, and overwrite all my work
 542 2014-05-12 03:37:08 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: I have the switch set so that prefacing commands with space keeps them out of my history and I use them a lot to reduce that mistake. though it leads to a fancy version when I up enter and get the command before last and am unhappy with the result.
 543 2014-05-12 03:37:14 <uiop> omg, <up>..<up><enter> is good too
 544 2014-05-12 03:37:40 * uiop 's going to make a list of these, "how to shoot youself in the foot on unix/in sh"
 545 2014-05-12 03:38:06 <survic> anyway, back to the original discussion I might raise an issue on Github if nobody else has already.
 546 2014-05-12 03:38:26 fdi11inger has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 547 2014-05-12 03:38:58 <gwillen> gmaxwell: hahaha, yeah, I've done the > one but never on live valuable data
 548 2014-05-12 03:39:03 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I learned that one early
 549 2014-05-12 03:39:09 <uiop> an easy way to verify privkey exports might go a long way
 550 2014-05-12 03:39:52 <gmaxwell> survic: please do, though I'm not sure exactly what we can do. maybe just special case some the commands in the console to spit out an extra warning.
 551 2014-05-12 03:40:08 <gwillen> I have up-entered the wrong command before, but never yet a dangerous one... it's only a matter of time probably though
 552 2014-05-12 03:40:11 <gmaxwell> uiop: I don't think I've personally encountered a case where that would help.
 553 2014-05-12 03:40:27 <gwillen> survic: gmaxwell: whatever the solution I would encourage an actual prompt and not just a warning, so that people actually read whatever it is you come up with
 554 2014-05-12 03:40:31 LjL-Tablet has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 555 2014-05-12 03:40:35 <gmaxwell> gwillen: I've upentered to a git reset hard and spent a while fixing that. :P
 556 2014-05-12 03:40:40 <gwillen> :-(
 557 2014-05-12 03:41:00 <gwillen> at least there you have the reflog
 558 2014-05-12 03:41:04 <gwillen> so you mostly don't actually loe
 559 2014-05-12 03:41:05 <gmaxwell> yep
 560 2014-05-12 03:41:06 <gwillen> lose*
 561 2014-05-12 03:41:24 <gwillen> it amazes me how cavalier people are about the reflog, though; I kind of try not to rely on it
 562 2014-05-12 03:41:45 <uiop> gmaxwell: one of survic's two recent losses resulted from "thought i exported it but didn't, then deleted orig data" i thought. it'd help there at least
 563 2014-05-12 03:44:00 <survic> what's the export private keys RPC command?
 564 2014-05-12 03:44:01 * uiop is as usual suggesting features he's not offering to code :)
 565 2014-05-12 03:44:37 <survic> dumpprivkey
 566 2014-05-12 03:45:01 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 567 2014-05-12 03:45:23 <gmaxwell> survic: did they even run dumpprivkey in that recent case?
 568 2014-05-12 03:45:40 <gmaxwell> or did they just copy the address from the address book (which is something I've seen people do)
 569 2014-05-12 03:46:05 <survic> gmaxwell: second one did the "watch wallet" thing with the address book
 570 2014-05-12 03:46:05 akstunt600 has joined
 571 2014-05-12 03:46:14 <survic> I think. it's not clear.
 572 2014-05-12 03:47:06 <andytoshi> from an education perspective, should we talk about addresses and key material as though they are not really related?
 573 2014-05-12 03:47:13 <andytoshi> i.e. addresses are just payment identifiers
 574 2014-05-12 03:47:21 olalonde has joined
 575 2014-05-12 03:47:29 <gmaxwell> So thats an exposing users to _addresses_ issue, not privkey issue.
 576 2014-05-12 03:47:37 danielpbarron has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 577 2014-05-12 03:48:29 <survic> gmaxwell: first one was a privkey issue.
 578 2014-05-12 03:48:52 TheSeven has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 579 2014-05-12 03:49:37 danielpbarron has joined
 580 2014-05-12 03:50:21 <survic> oh
 581 2014-05-12 03:50:55 ConvivialMatt has quit (Quit: ConvivialMatt)
 582 2014-05-12 03:50:58 TheSeven has joined
 583 2014-05-12 03:51:26 <gmaxwell> Too bad addresses don't begin with 'Invoice' instead of '1' or '3'. :P
 584 2014-05-12 03:51:45 <gwillen> heh!
 585 2014-05-12 03:53:52 LjL-Tablet2 has joined
 586 2014-05-12 03:54:46 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol
 587 2014-05-12 03:54:52 <phantomcircuit> just change the client to accept that!
 588 2014-05-12 03:54:56 <phantomcircuit> magic
 589 2014-05-12 03:55:10 <[\\\]> We should just do away with private keys, then people can't lose them.
 590 2014-05-12 03:55:21 <survic> gmaxwell: issue raised.
 591 2014-05-12 03:55:47 ebfull has joined
 592 2014-05-12 03:56:23 <sidneyz> I am thinking about distributed identity with a proof of burn
 593 2014-05-12 03:56:26 <sidneyz> wanted to get your thoughts
 594 2014-05-12 03:56:33 <uiop> [\\\]: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/3/31/131
 595 2014-05-12 03:56:33 <sidneyz> https://keybase.io/ looks good
 596 2014-05-12 03:56:42 <sidneyz> but if we add a proof of burn on the blockchain
 597 2014-05-12 03:56:52 <uiop> [\\\]: "In short, for the ultimate in computer-system simplicity, the optimal choice is NR_CPUS=0."
 598 2014-05-12 03:56:58 <uiop> classic
 599 2014-05-12 03:57:10 <sidneyz> plus make the publickey storage embedded in the blockchain via an OP_RETURN
 600 2014-05-12 03:57:17 <sidneyz> in the same transaction as the proof of burn
 601 2014-05-12 03:57:26 <sidneyz> do you think we can have a better system than keybase.io
 602 2014-05-12 03:57:28 <sidneyz> thoughts?
 603 2014-05-12 03:57:59 richcollins has joined
 604 2014-05-12 04:00:27 donpillou has joined
 605 2014-05-12 04:00:29 rdbell has quit (Quit: rdbell)
 606 2014-05-12 04:04:28 ubiquipumpkin is now known as copumpkin
 607 2014-05-12 04:07:45 grau has joined
 608 2014-05-12 04:08:10 <gwillen> sidneyz: what's the need for proof of burn? Why not just sign something with a bitcoin key?
 609 2014-05-12 04:08:27 LjL-Tablet2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 610 2014-05-12 04:08:39 <gwillen> sidneyz: by 'burn' do you mean an actual destruction of coins, or just a visible self-transfer, which would be sufficient to establish ownership of an address?
 611 2014-05-12 04:10:41 Belxjander has joined
 612 2014-05-12 04:12:50 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 613 2014-05-12 04:14:21 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
 614 2014-05-12 04:21:47 Plasmastar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 615 2014-05-12 04:22:05 lmf has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 616 2014-05-12 04:31:20 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Client exiting)
 617 2014-05-12 04:32:39 saizai has joined
 618 2014-05-12 04:32:42 <sidneyz> hey gwillen
 619 2014-05-12 04:32:53 <sidneyz> I was thinking about proof of burn because (actual destruction of coins)
 620 2014-05-12 04:33:04 <sidneyz> because it prevents farming of identity
 621 2014-05-12 04:33:21 <sidneyz> and with a reliable identity system as a base then I can foresee a far more reliable reputation system being built on top of it
 622 2014-05-12 04:33:49 <sidneyz> some ideas that I have been tossing with it, sending coins to an unspendable address and then OP_RETURN chains usename or something like that
 623 2014-05-12 04:35:32 <petertodd> sidneyz: OP_RETURN *is* your unspendable address
 624 2014-05-12 04:35:43 <sidneyz> but that didn’t burn any coins
 625 2014-05-12 04:35:50 <sidneyz> oh well
 626 2014-05-12 04:35:53 <sidneyz> I can attach value to it
 627 2014-05-12 04:35:56 <gwillen> survic: can you explain what you mean by farming, and what coin-burning does for you?
 628 2014-05-12 04:36:04 <petertodd> sidneyz: your OP_RETURN txout can itself have a value
 629 2014-05-12 04:36:08 <sidneyz> right!
 630 2014-05-12 04:36:16 <sidneyz> that’s good.
 631 2014-05-12 04:36:27 <sidneyz> well I was thinking about twitter / ebay etc
 632 2014-05-12 04:36:40 <sidneyz> identity can be farmed pretty cheaply by outsourcing to mechanical turks
 633 2014-05-12 04:36:44 <sidneyz> just sign up lots of accounts
 634 2014-05-12 04:36:53 <sidneyz> when you burn coins, it makes each account pretty expensive
 635 2014-05-12 04:37:04 <petertodd> sidneyz: yeah, that's called a fidelity bond
 636 2014-05-12 04:37:19 <sidneyz> I was looking at keybase.io
 637 2014-05-12 04:37:24 <sidneyz> I was thinking a fidelity bond with that
 638 2014-05-12 04:37:27 <sidneyz> would be perfect
 639 2014-05-12 04:37:31 <gwillen> sidneyz: so let me suggest instead of burning, spending in transaction fees
 640 2014-05-12 04:37:37 <sidneyz> oh right
 641 2014-05-12 04:37:38 <sidneyz> yeah
 642 2014-05-12 04:37:40 <sidneyz> that’s good
 643 2014-05-12 04:37:51 <petertodd> gwillen: no, that's very, very bad
 644 2014-05-12 04:37:54 <gwillen> sidneyz: but otherwise I do see what you mean about making identities expensive, and it's a good idea, although you may want to scale the amount dynamically somehow? But then again maybe not.
 645 2014-05-12 04:37:56 <sidneyz> transaction fee is not better?
 646 2014-05-12 04:37:58 <gwillen> petertodd: oh, why?
 647 2014-05-12 04:38:21 Plasmastar has joined
 648 2014-05-12 04:38:21 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 649 2014-05-12 04:38:46 <petertodd> gwillen: see my announce/commit fidelity bond scheme for the closest you can do to "burn to fees", but frankly even that isn't a good idea because it encourages mining pools to get bigger
 650 2014-05-12 04:39:22 akstunt600 has joined
 651 2014-05-12 04:39:27 <gwillen> petertodd: can you link your scheme here? It sounds like something sidneyz and I would both be interested in reading
 652 2014-05-12 04:39:36 <sidneyz> yes please
 653 2014-05-12 04:39:39 <sidneyz> I would like to read that too
 654 2014-05-12 04:39:46 <petertodd> gwillen: it's on the wiki under fidelity bonds, but really, it's a bad idea, just burn coins
 655 2014-05-12 04:40:39 <sidneyz> attaching OP_RETURN is better because at least it prunable
 656 2014-05-12 04:40:48 <sidneyz> whereasa address is there foreever
 657 2014-05-12 04:41:06 Belxjander has joined
 658 2014-05-12 04:41:30 Chief_Panda has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 659 2014-05-12 04:44:57 phantomspark has joined
 660 2014-05-12 04:44:58 <sidneyz> I want to know maybe it is better to do something else for identity instead of embedding it into the blockchain?
 661 2014-05-12 04:45:07 <sidneyz> I feel fidelity bond is a good idea
 662 2014-05-12 04:45:30 <sidneyz> any examples where this is actually implemented?
 663 2014-05-12 04:45:30 <gwillen> well, you don't actually have to embed it; you can do the fidelity bond with an address, then use that address to sign a proof or something, and put the proof in a sidechain
 664 2014-05-12 04:45:47 <petertodd> well you have to burn coins, so yeah, just do OP_RETURN <Hash(identity)>
 665 2014-05-12 04:45:48 <gwillen> so you don't actually have to put anything into the bitcoin blockchain itself other than the burn
 666 2014-05-12 04:46:19 <sidneyz> do you know any examples where it is implemented? I woud like to study it a bit more
 667 2014-05-12 04:46:21 <gwillen> I mean, what do you put in for 'identity'? If it's a GPG key, why not just use the bitcoin privkey itself as the identity instead?
 668 2014-05-12 04:46:32 <petertodd> sidneyz: it's not implemented anywhere
 669 2014-05-12 04:47:00 <gwillen> If it's a Wallet Name (TM), not a good idea to tie that directly to the bond, since you may want to change it later and it would be annoying and costly to have to rebond
 670 2014-05-12 04:47:06 <petertodd> gwillen: no, please don't, just commit to the GPG fingerprint so standard privkey securing techniques work
 671 2014-05-12 04:47:26 <gwillen> what do you mean by 'standard privkey securing techniques'
 672 2014-05-12 04:47:45 <petertodd> gwillen: e.g. I have a PGP smartcard - using a bitcoin privkey is a severe reduction in security for me
 673 2014-05-12 04:48:05 <gwillen> that's a good approach if you do it, I agree
 674 2014-05-12 04:48:34 <gwillen> and I suppose signing a chained pubkey with the bitcoin key enables you to use a corresponding privkey that was securely generated, in the general case
 675 2014-05-12 04:48:39 <Belxjander> petertodd: could you setup a wallet where that pgp smartcard IS the private key ?
 676 2014-05-12 04:48:40 <gwillen> whereas the bitcoin key almost surely was not
 677 2014-05-12 04:49:05 <petertodd> Belxjander: sure - they're talking about a new PGP smartcard standard w/ bitcoin compatible ecdsa support
 678 2014-05-12 04:49:20 <petertodd> gwillen: there's just no need to involve a bitcoin key at all
 679 2014-05-12 04:49:21 <Belxjander> petertodd: yay
 680 2014-05-12 04:49:47 <gwillen> petertodd: well, if you're bonding by destroying coins, there IS a bitcoin key involved, being the one that held the coins
 681 2014-05-12 04:49:55 <survic> of the other wallet is it just that you don't know the case?
 682 2014-05-12 04:49:57 <survic> arrgh
 683 2014-05-12 04:50:02 <gwillen> petertodd: but I suppose merely putting the pgp pubkey fingerprint in the transaction is sufficient; you don't need any other operations with the bitcoin key
 684 2014-05-12 04:50:06 <survic> !roulette
 685 2014-05-12 04:50:07 * gribble reloads and spins the chambers.
 686 2014-05-12 04:50:19 <petertodd> gwillen: whose to say you were the one who actually paid for it directly?
 687 2014-05-12 04:50:34 <petertodd> gwillen: besides, think about how you actually prove compactly that the fidelity bond exists...
 688 2014-05-12 04:50:35 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
 689 2014-05-12 04:51:32 SwampTony has joined
 690 2014-05-12 04:51:47 da2ce7 has joined
 691 2014-05-12 04:51:51 <gwillen> petertodd: I'm not a cryptographer nor a bitcoin dev, so proving things compactly is usually above my ability level...
 692 2014-05-12 04:51:59 <SomeoneWeird> stahp
 693 2014-05-12 04:52:13 <petertodd> gwillen: I'm a fine arts student, don't underestimate yourself :)
 694 2014-05-12 04:52:17 <gwillen> hahahahah
 695 2014-05-12 04:52:24 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 696 2014-05-12 04:53:03 da2ce7 has quit (Client Quit)
 697 2014-05-12 04:53:09 <gwillen> well, can you sketch for me what you mean? To someone who has a copy of the blockchain on hand, it would seem they don't need a proof because they should already have everything they need to know the key is bonded
 698 2014-05-12 04:53:36 kermit has joined
 699 2014-05-12 04:53:43 paveljanik has joined
 700 2014-05-12 04:53:52 <petertodd> gwillen: basically the key thing you need to know is that a transaction itself only contains what scriptPubKeys it pays - it does *not* contain the scriptPubKeys it *spent*
 701 2014-05-12 04:53:55 rdbell has joined
 702 2014-05-12 04:54:29 <petertodd> gwillen: secondly, you can use the merkle tree to show that a transaction existed in a block via the merkle tree (a merkle path)
 703 2014-05-12 04:58:46 rdbell has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 704 2014-05-12 05:00:36 mappum has joined
 705 2014-05-12 05:05:00 <phantomcircuit> <SomeoneWeird> stahp
 706 2014-05-12 05:05:01 <phantomcircuit> wat
 707 2014-05-12 05:10:09 rdbell has joined
 708 2014-05-12 05:11:02 HaltingState has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 709 2014-05-12 05:11:40 LjL-Tablet2 has joined
 710 2014-05-12 05:11:40 grau has joined
 711 2014-05-12 05:11:49 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 712 2014-05-12 05:12:10 HaltingState has joined
 713 2014-05-12 05:14:18 ericmuyser has joined
 714 2014-05-12 05:14:43 <sidneyz> petertood I am trying to wrap my head around what you said about embedding pgp pubkey footprint
 715 2014-05-12 05:14:53 <sidneyz> does that footprint go into the op_return?
 716 2014-05-12 05:15:01 <petertodd> sidneyz: op_return <pgp fingerprint>
 717 2014-05-12 05:15:17 ericmuys_ has joined
 718 2014-05-12 05:15:27 <sidneyz> yeah
 719 2014-05-12 05:15:28 <sidneyz> right
 720 2014-05-12 05:16:09 LjL-Tablet2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 721 2014-05-12 05:16:21 <sidneyz> last question
 722 2014-05-12 05:16:29 <sidneyz> isn’t it good to have miners to get the fees
 723 2014-05-12 05:16:34 <sidneyz> as oppose to just burning it?
 724 2014-05-12 05:16:38 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 725 2014-05-12 05:16:57 LjL-Tablet2 has joined
 726 2014-05-12 05:17:12 <petertodd> sidneyz: no, because if you have 25% of the hashing power, it's 25% cheaper for you to sell fidelity bonds to someone else, incentivizing your mining pool to get bigger
 727 2014-05-12 05:17:29 rdbell has quit (Read error: No route to host)
 728 2014-05-12 05:17:31 <sidneyz> I see
 729 2014-05-12 05:17:37 <sidneyz> there is a higher incentive to centralize mining
 730 2014-05-12 05:18:08 <petertodd> exactly
 731 2014-05-12 05:18:16 phantomspark has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 732 2014-05-12 05:18:22 <sidneyz> but why would someone be selling fidelity bond?
 733 2014-05-12 05:18:33 <petertodd> because they can do it for 75% cheaper than you can
 734 2014-05-12 05:18:34 <sidneyz> for example, I will just be attaching to a transaction fee?
 735 2014-05-12 05:18:34 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 736 2014-05-12 05:18:51 <petertodd> read my announce/commit sacrifices for the closest thing you can get to make that work
 737 2014-05-12 05:18:54 <sidneyz> but if let’s say I am participant in the pool
 738 2014-05-12 05:19:05 <sidneyz> I see
 739 2014-05-12 05:19:08 <sidneyz> announce/commit sacrifices
 740 2014-05-12 05:19:26 <petertodd> the point is the pool itself creates the bonds, knowing that it'll get the fees back by virtu of the fact that they get 25% of all fees
 741 2014-05-12 05:20:57 LjL-Tablet2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 742 2014-05-12 05:21:35 Elza has joined
 743 2014-05-12 05:22:51 <warren> phantomcircuit: clearly he is displeased with everything that we do
 744 2014-05-12 05:23:56 coeus has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 745 2014-05-12 05:24:27 HaltingState has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 746 2014-05-12 05:25:23 <Eliel_> I think I'm starting to get why some designs divide fees over many blocks (reward averaging)
 747 2014-05-12 05:26:22 <petertodd> Eliel_: that's a really, really old idea, I should know :P it's still not a good idea, nor does it address my centralization concern
 748 2014-05-12 05:26:44 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 749 2014-05-12 05:26:53 grau has joined
 750 2014-05-12 05:27:08 Namworld has quit ()
 751 2014-05-12 05:27:28 wallet42 has joined
 752 2014-05-12 05:30:27 phantomspark has joined
 753 2014-05-12 05:31:42 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 754 2014-05-12 05:32:20 wallet42 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 755 2014-05-12 05:32:56 akstunt600 has joined
 756 2014-05-12 05:38:57 cadaver has joined
 757 2014-05-12 05:39:23 fdi11inger has joined
 758 2014-05-12 05:39:47 LjL-Tablet has joined
 759 2014-05-12 05:41:30 SwampTony has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 760 2014-05-12 05:44:08 fdi11inger has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 761 2014-05-12 05:44:16 LjL-Tablet has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 762 2014-05-12 05:50:37 olalonde has left ()
 763 2014-05-12 05:57:07 weilu has joined
 764 2014-05-12 05:57:14 lalopalo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 765 2014-05-12 06:01:14 SwampTony has joined
 766 2014-05-12 06:01:52 impulse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 767 2014-05-12 06:03:23 go1111111 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 768 2014-05-12 06:03:27 impulse has joined
 769 2014-05-12 06:04:02 robonerd- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 770 2014-05-12 06:04:10 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 771 2014-05-12 06:05:06 ThomasV has joined
 772 2014-05-12 06:05:07 robonerd has joined
 773 2014-05-12 06:05:30 GMP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 774 2014-05-12 06:05:40 psgs is now known as away!~psgs@2001:41d0:1:68a3::39|psgs
 775 2014-05-12 06:05:42 papa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 776 2014-05-12 06:06:04 papa has joined
 777 2014-05-12 06:09:26 ganjafarmer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 778 2014-05-12 06:09:54 ganjafarmer has joined
 779 2014-05-12 06:11:07 pooler has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 28.0/20140317233501])
 780 2014-05-12 06:14:00 samson_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 781 2014-05-12 06:14:06 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Client exiting)
 782 2014-05-12 06:14:15 samson_ has joined
 783 2014-05-12 06:14:53 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 784 2014-05-12 06:17:01 go1111111 has joined
 785 2014-05-12 06:19:08 fpx has joined
 786 2014-05-12 06:20:59 weilu has joined
 787 2014-05-12 06:24:34 Alina-malina has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 788 2014-05-12 06:25:03 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 789 2014-05-12 06:25:26 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 790 2014-05-12 06:26:00 akstunt600 has joined
 791 2014-05-12 06:26:11 msvb-lab has joined
 792 2014-05-12 06:30:39 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 793 2014-05-12 06:31:01 KillYourTV has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 794 2014-05-12 06:31:27 Luke-Jr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 795 2014-05-12 06:31:57 Luke-Jr has joined
 796 2014-05-12 06:32:20 debiantoruser has joined
 797 2014-05-12 06:42:24 Gyps has quit (Quit: Gyps)
 798 2014-05-12 06:44:14 Chief_Panda has joined
 799 2014-05-12 06:44:14 Chief_Panda has quit (Changing host)
 800 2014-05-12 06:44:14 Chief_Panda has joined
 801 2014-05-12 06:44:15 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 802 2014-05-12 06:46:57 <ganjafarmer> can i generate testnet blocks with bitcoin core?
 803 2014-05-12 06:47:12 Einewton has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 804 2014-05-12 06:47:44 Einewton has joined
 805 2014-05-12 06:48:45 Luke-Jr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 806 2014-05-12 06:49:27 davout has quit (Quit: kthxbye)
 807 2014-05-12 06:50:06 SwampTony has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 808 2014-05-12 06:50:40 Luke-Jr has joined
 809 2014-05-12 06:52:43 grau has joined
 810 2014-05-12 06:52:50 <uiop> petertodd: why do you (they) call this concept a "fidelity bond" (== an insurance policy), when it seems to be (begin simplistic) just "make it expensive to do undesirable things" ?
 811 2014-05-12 06:53:04 <uiop> *s/begin/being/ simplistic
 812 2014-05-12 06:54:53 <uiop> petertodd: i've tried to imagine with the analogy (couldn't find it explicitly stated via google), but can't come up with one that works
 813 2014-05-12 06:55:37 * uiop finds https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fidelity_bonds
 814 2014-05-12 06:56:00 <uiop> petertodd: ok, my question remains
 815 2014-05-12 06:57:08 weilu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 816 2014-05-12 07:02:09 <robonerd> anyone know if there's a problem with eating a bunch of high end chocolate before sleeping?
 817 2014-05-12 07:05:34 Coincidental has joined
 818 2014-05-12 07:07:28 weilu has joined
 819 2014-05-12 07:08:51 <danielpbarron> robonerd, I hope not; I just did exactly that.
 820 2014-05-12 07:09:05 <robonerd> ^5 chocolate brother
 821 2014-05-12 07:09:29 <warren> robonerd: 1) Off-topic for this channel. 2) Chocolate contains caffeine.  Good luck.
 822 2014-05-12 07:09:35 weilu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 823 2014-05-12 07:10:54 <robonerd> oh poo that's right it does. well, it's crazy ass dream time. i'll fill everyone in tomorrow
 824 2014-05-12 07:11:01 <robonerd> night
 825 2014-05-12 07:14:27 <wumpus> warren: can you take a look at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4161  (leveldb 1.17).. it's a very small diff but I'd like some people to look at it
 826 2014-05-12 07:14:38 <warren> ok
 827 2014-05-12 07:15:01 <wumpus> the only significant change is in log_reader.cc
 828 2014-05-12 07:16:28 <warren> "just ignore the entire logical record"
 829 2014-05-12 07:16:32 <warren> what effect will that have on us?
 830 2014-05-12 07:16:48 <wumpus> I suppose it means that the change is rolled back?
 831 2014-05-12 07:16:58 <wumpus> I really don't know much about leveldb internals
 832 2014-05-12 07:17:00 <warren> need to verify that
 833 2014-05-12 07:17:38 <warren> because if it doesn't rollback and instead goes forward ignoring a record, then you could silently fall off the network instead of logs telling you its corrupted
 834 2014-05-12 07:18:04 <warren> well, it won't silently fail, but it won't tell you the cause
 835 2014-05-12 07:18:10 benten has joined
 836 2014-05-12 07:18:28 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 837 2014-05-12 07:19:00 dipendra has joined
 838 2014-05-12 07:19:21 Alina-malina has joined
 839 2014-05-12 07:19:35 akstunt600 has joined
 840 2014-05-12 07:20:20 SwampTony has joined
 841 2014-05-12 07:20:39 bitblender has joined
 842 2014-05-12 07:22:54 fanquake has joined
 843 2014-05-12 07:25:21 Guest24978 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [SeaMonkey 2.22.1/20131113180422])
 844 2014-05-12 07:28:22 gdm85 has joined
 845 2014-05-12 07:28:25 <wumpus> that's a risk, indeed
 846 2014-05-12 07:33:46 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 847 2014-05-12 07:35:34 Raziel has joined
 848 2014-05-12 07:40:19 fdi11inger has joined
 849 2014-05-12 07:41:22 cadaver has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 850 2014-05-12 07:44:05 davout has joined
 851 2014-05-12 07:44:34 fdi11inger has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 852 2014-05-12 07:44:50 Elglobo has joined
 853 2014-05-12 07:48:09 pierreatwork has joined
 854 2014-05-12 07:48:34 Grouver has joined
 855 2014-05-12 07:48:38 ThomasV has joined
 856 2014-05-12 07:48:51 lclc has joined
 857 2014-05-12 07:49:43 KillYourTV has joined
 858 2014-05-12 07:51:46 Naphex has quit (Quit: leaving)
 859 2014-05-12 07:51:53 Naphex has joined
 860 2014-05-12 07:54:44 t7 has joined
 861 2014-05-12 07:55:40 tlrobinson has joined
 862 2014-05-12 07:57:14 W0rmDr1nk has joined
 863 2014-05-12 07:57:43 sidneyz has quit (Quit: sidneyz)
 864 2014-05-12 08:02:47 tarantillo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 865 2014-05-12 08:02:54 paveljanik has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 866 2014-05-12 08:03:08 tarantillo_ has joined
 867 2014-05-12 08:07:16 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 868 2014-05-12 08:09:14 grandmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 869 2014-05-12 08:10:10 <sipa> warren: technically you don't even roll back, as the change is never committed; it's just the last change that never made it through
 870 2014-05-12 08:10:25 <sipa> warren: bht testing would be nice, and should be easy
 871 2014-05-12 08:11:15 jtimon has joined
 872 2014-05-12 08:12:07 psgs is now known as psgs|away
 873 2014-05-12 08:12:44 phantomspark has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 874 2014-05-12 08:19:10 pooler has joined
 875 2014-05-12 08:32:49 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I suppose libsecp256k1 does not support other curves at all? :P
 876 2014-05-12 08:34:33 SwampTony has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 877 2014-05-12 08:35:09 SwampTony has joined
 878 2014-05-12 08:35:27 melvster has joined
 879 2014-05-12 08:37:31 <sipa> Luke-Jr: indeed
 880 2014-05-12 08:37:35 sheepman has joined
 881 2014-05-12 08:38:01 <sipa> you could change some constants in order to support some other curves, but not many
 882 2014-05-12 08:38:32 <sipa> the field code is specifically for orders 2**256 - 64_bit_constant
 883 2014-05-12 08:39:06 <sipa> and the curve equation needs to be y^2 = x^3 + b
 884 2014-05-12 08:39:30 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 885 2014-05-12 08:41:15 YoY_ has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
 886 2014-05-12 08:41:46 phoenix54 has joined
 887 2014-05-12 08:42:47 _yoy_ has joined
 888 2014-05-12 08:44:47 Eagle[TM] has joined
 889 2014-05-12 08:44:52 _yoy_ has quit (Client Quit)
 890 2014-05-12 08:45:41 _yoy_ has joined
 891 2014-05-12 08:46:02 [BNC]dansmith has quit (Changing host)
 892 2014-05-12 08:46:02 [BNC]dansmith has joined
 893 2014-05-12 08:47:23 <Luke-Jr> hrm, I can't seem to find that EC curve quality/comparison website (I think by cjd?)
 894 2014-05-12 08:47:32 <Luke-Jr> anyone have a bookmark? :P
 895 2014-05-12 08:49:09 <sipa> http://safecurves.cr.yp.to/ ?
 896 2014-05-12 08:50:06 sheepman has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
 897 2014-05-12 08:50:28 paveljanik has joined
 898 2014-05-12 08:51:27 sheepman has joined
 899 2014-05-12 08:52:27 GAit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 900 2014-05-12 08:53:02 <Luke-Jr> yeah, thanks
 901 2014-05-12 08:54:08 hearn has joined
 902 2014-05-12 08:58:24 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 903 2014-05-12 08:58:25 benrcole has joined
 904 2014-05-12 09:00:27 debiantoruser has joined
 905 2014-05-12 09:01:31 hexagon53 has joined
 906 2014-05-12 09:04:17 hexagon54 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 907 2014-05-12 09:05:19 psgs is now known as away!~psgs@2001:41d0:1:68a3::39|psgs
 908 2014-05-12 09:06:50 zcopley has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 909 2014-05-12 09:09:08 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 910 2014-05-12 09:12:12 McMont has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 911 2014-05-12 09:14:41 benten has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
 912 2014-05-12 09:15:53 benrcole has joined
 913 2014-05-12 09:23:03 paveljanik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 914 2014-05-12 09:28:19 jokosh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 915 2014-05-12 09:28:31 jokosh has joined
 916 2014-05-12 09:29:21 w1zman has quit ()
 917 2014-05-12 09:29:51 [BNC]dansmith is now known as dansmith_btc
 918 2014-05-12 09:31:32 w1zman has joined
 919 2014-05-12 09:31:44 w1zman has quit (Client Quit)
 920 2014-05-12 09:32:06 Eiii has quit ()
 921 2014-05-12 09:32:20 SwampTony has joined
 922 2014-05-12 09:33:49 grau has joined
 923 2014-05-12 09:38:34 Starduster has joined
 924 2014-05-12 09:41:09 fdi11inger has joined
 925 2014-05-12 09:41:19 MolokoDeck is now known as MolokoDesk
 926 2014-05-12 09:46:09 fdi11inger has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 927 2014-05-12 09:48:54 HaltingState has joined
 928 2014-05-12 09:49:47 JackH has joined
 929 2014-05-12 09:52:21 lolstate has joined
 930 2014-05-12 09:52:58 Anduck is now known as NyanDuck
 931 2014-05-12 09:53:34 NyanDuck is now known as Anduck
 932 2014-05-12 09:55:13 chichov has joined
 933 2014-05-12 09:55:18 stuntkite has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 934 2014-05-12 09:56:02 <chichov> hey guys; I've written a (hopefully) thorough description of the bitcoin protocol. Where can I post it for comments?
 935 2014-05-12 09:57:11 <petertodd> uiop: because inherently you have to specify *what* undesirable things it's meant to make expensive, hence, it's always a type of behavior bond at the most basic
 936 2014-05-12 09:57:37 <petertodd> uiop: if I can reuse the fidelity bond for 100 different purposes, it's 100x cheaper for me to do those undesirable things
 937 2014-05-12 09:57:53 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 938 2014-05-12 09:58:26 eristisk has joined
 939 2014-05-12 10:00:44 <sipa> chichov: wiki page? gist?
 940 2014-05-12 10:00:51 <chichov> sipa: gist?
 941 2014-05-12 10:01:14 <sipa> gist.github.com
 942 2014-05-12 10:01:26 <sipa> what format?
 943 2014-05-12 10:01:33 <chichov> pdf, of course
 944 2014-05-12 10:02:23 <chichov> what would you recommend then?
 945 2014-05-12 10:02:32 JackH has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 946 2014-05-12 10:02:50 <sipa> paste a link here? if you need more comments, mention it on the mailing list?
 947 2014-05-12 10:03:54 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 948 2014-05-12 10:03:59 llllllllll has joined
 949 2014-05-12 10:05:48 JackH has joined
 950 2014-05-12 10:07:18 <chichov> alright, will do
 951 2014-05-12 10:08:06 <uiop> petertodd: ah, hmm. is the right analogy for that an "insurance policy" though? since the utility of a fidelity bond is to give you money if you get sued for negligence or something. (i'm just speaking to how i feel like this analogy doesn't quite fit, and calling it a "fidelity bond" seems misleading/confusing)
 952 2014-05-12 10:08:31 antonwalkerr has joined
 953 2014-05-12 10:08:41 <petertodd> uiop: legally what exactly fidelity bonds do can have a lot of meanings; insurance always means you get money
 954 2014-05-12 10:09:47 <uiop> petertodd: but in the cryptocoin-related fidelity bond, what does the "insurance payout" map to under the analogy?
 955 2014-05-12 10:10:17 <petertodd> uiop: that's my point, insurance payout is *not* the right analogy, which is why the term is "fidelity bond"
 956 2014-05-12 10:12:20 <uiop> petertodd: but a fidelity bond is an insurance policy to protect you against losses incurred via suit against you. i just feel like calling this mechanism a "fidelity bond" is like calling a bitcoin transaction an "auto insurance policy" (if i may use slight hyperbole) :)
 957 2014-05-12 10:13:19 <petertodd> uiop: huh? fidelity bonds are never to protect you, they're to protect others from you
 958 2014-05-12 10:13:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|02:15:09 <shesek> btcd is pretty nice - I'm currently using that for the next version of Bitrated <-- What are you using it for?
 959 2014-05-12 10:13:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|02:38:23 <sipa> did you know you can put a signature in the scriptPubKey? | 02:38:48 <sipa> (knowing that it must sign the transaction that *spends* that output, not the transaction it is put in) <-- I'm not sure I understand how that's possible... doesn't the signature require the input's txid, which changes when you add the signature?
 960 2014-05-12 10:13:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|05:19:45 <survic> bitcoin core is the GUI (previously Bitcoin-QT) | 05:26:01 <uiop> "bitcoin core" is the gui?! (?) | 05:31:07 <survic> that was my understanding. QT was rebranded to Core, bitcoind stays bitcoind <-- Not quite. The project was rebranded from Bitcoin to Bitcoin Core. bitcoind is now Bitcoin Core Daemon. Bitcoin-Qt is now Bitcoin Core GUI.
 961 2014-05-12 10:13:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(the executable names haven't changed, though)
 962 2014-05-12 10:13:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Re: typing the footgun line: if anyone does that, please either make it a compile-time option or at least have a secret way (perhaps an alternative string to type) that triggers a "don't ask me again" (if you don't just put one of those buttons in the open, that is)
 963 2014-05-12 10:13:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ooh, or, how about just making all the key management related (potential footgun) RPCs require a command-line/config file option? And maybe (not entirely serious here) have a special running mode, maybe a -getkeymanagementoption, that makes you type the footgun line to reveal the option?
 964 2014-05-12 10:13:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|06:31:57 <survic> I did sudo rm -rf --no-preseve-root / on a production server because I got the wrong shell. <-- why would you ever run that? :-/
 965 2014-05-12 10:14:12 <uiop> petertodd: the way they protect others from you is to ensure that you can pay up when the other party sues you
 966 2014-05-12 10:14:42 <petertodd> uiop: yes, *sometimes* - there do exist bonds in the legal world where even that mechanism isn't automatic
 967 2014-05-12 10:14:53 <petertodd> uiop: or for that matter, not at all
 968 2014-05-12 10:15:10 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, listening for transactions made to addresses and broadcasting transactions
 969 2014-05-12 10:15:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah, okay -- seems safe enough
 970 2014-05-12 10:15:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(d'you run it behind a bitcoind?)
 971 2014-05-12 10:16:42 <uiop> petertodd: ah
 972 2014-05-12 10:17:14 * uiop has to run
 973 2014-05-12 10:18:03 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 974 2014-05-12 10:18:11 lolstate has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 975 2014-05-12 10:19:31 HaltingState has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 976 2014-05-12 10:21:25 Namworld has joined
 977 2014-05-12 10:21:55 lolstate has joined
 978 2014-05-12 10:21:56 <warren> nightly builds are normally 12 hours from now, but kicked it off now for the leveldb upgrade
 979 2014-05-12 10:24:01 HaltingState has joined
 980 2014-05-12 10:24:12 mkarrer has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 981 2014-05-12 10:25:22 non2 has joined
 982 2014-05-12 10:26:50 mkarrer has joined
 983 2014-05-12 10:27:07 mkarrer has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 984 2014-05-12 10:27:55 mkarrer has joined
 985 2014-05-12 10:27:55 mkarrer has quit (Client Quit)
 986 2014-05-12 10:28:03 tlrobinson has quit (Quit: tlrobinson)
 987 2014-05-12 10:28:07 mkarrer has joined
 988 2014-05-12 10:29:26 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, it doesn't run behind bitcoind, it replaces it
 989 2014-05-12 10:30:22 <shesek> I'm not 100% sure about btcd yet... I might switch over to bitcoind when the watch-only functionality is merged upstream
 990 2014-05-12 10:30:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: Well, I know some people use an alternate implementation, but have it running behind a bitcoind as a "border router"
 991 2014-05-12 10:31:31 <shesek> ah, I see. no, I'm not doing that
 992 2014-05-12 10:31:41 fdi11inger has joined
 993 2014-05-12 10:31:55 <sipa> If only people wouldn't copy bitcoind's silly design of putting the wallet and the node in the same program :(
 994 2014-05-12 10:32:03 <shesek> sipa, they didn't
 995 2014-05-12 10:32:15 <sipa> good!
 996 2014-05-12 10:32:19 <shesek> btcd is not a wallet, they have something separate that operates as a wallet and talks with btcd
 997 2014-05-12 10:32:30 <shesek> btcwallet, I think
 998 2014-05-12 10:32:31 <sipa> well yes, same problem
 999 2014-05-12 10:32:43 <sipa> you should be able to run any wallet with any node :)
1000 2014-05-12 10:33:18 JackH has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1001 2014-05-12 10:33:32 <sipa> now you're forced to use particular validation code because of a feature you want in the wallet
1002 2014-05-12 10:33:40 <shesek> sipa, it uses the btcd's RPC API, which is mostly the same as bitcoind's RPC API
1003 2014-05-12 10:33:48 <wumpus> <sipa> If only people wouldn't copy bitcoind's silly design of putting the wallet and the node in the same program :( <- even though we've said for a long time that we're moving away from that, too
1004 2014-05-12 10:34:00 <shesek> expect for a few extensions they added, they kept the exact same RPC interface
1005 2014-05-12 10:34:18 <sipa> i don't understand
1006 2014-05-12 10:34:35 <sipa> you can't implement a wallet on top of RPC, if the node doesn't already have wallet functionality
1007 2014-05-12 10:35:15 <sipa> unless it does it at a very low level (requesting blocks and mempool, ...)
1008 2014-05-12 10:35:24 HaltingState has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1009 2014-05-12 10:35:37 <sipa> anyway, i don't know the details, so i won't make any more assumptions :)
1010 2014-05-12 10:35:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well, it can be as simple as a "persistant connection, subscribe to these scriptPubKeys"
1011 2014-05-12 10:35:53 <shesek> oh, well, actually, I wasn't quite accurate - they have a bitcoind-like RPC and an WebSocket RPC API
1012 2014-05-12 10:35:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(which I guess could be described as a watch-only wallet on the node...)
1013 2014-05-12 10:36:12 mkarrer has quit ()
1014 2014-05-12 10:36:29 mkarrer has joined
1015 2014-05-12 10:36:38 ThomasV has joined
1016 2014-05-12 10:36:45 <shesek> the WebSocket API allows to get notifications for transactions made to specific addresses, and for spends of specific outputs
1017 2014-05-12 10:36:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: btw, you said something earlier about putting a signature in a scriptPubKey
1018 2014-05-12 10:37:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|How does that work?
1019 2014-05-12 10:37:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|As I said earlier: 13:10:57 <michagogo|cloud> 02:38:23 <sipa> did you know you can put a signature in the scriptPubKey? | 02:38:48 <sipa> (knowing that it must sign the transaction that *spends* that output, not the transaction it is put in) <-- I'm not sure I understand how that's possible... doesn't the signature require the input's txid, which changes
1020 2014-05-12 10:37:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|when you add the signature?
1021 2014-05-12 10:38:00 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: yeah, good point
1022 2014-05-12 10:38:03 <sipa> shesek: i see
1023 2014-05-12 10:38:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's the whole "a signature can't sign itself" thing, at first glance
1024 2014-05-12 10:38:35 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: well, it's *not* that
1025 2014-05-12 10:38:46 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, its not really a watch-only wallet, because it doesn't persist the watched addresses
1026 2014-05-12 10:39:05 <shesek> you connect to the websocket, tell it what addresses you want to watch and get notifications as long as you're connected
1027 2014-05-12 10:39:08 <sipa> shesek: right, so they have a mini wallet-server inside the validation node
1028 2014-05-12 10:39:09 bitwyre has joined
1029 2014-05-12 10:39:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: it's not? The signature signs including the txid of the input
1030 2014-05-12 10:39:12 <shesek> once you disconnect, btcd forgets about it
1031 2014-05-12 10:39:39 <shesek> so the wallet code has to take care of remembering the last block it heard about and rescanning manually when it reconnects (they have a separate command for that)
1032 2014-05-12 10:39:42 <sipa> shesek: can you use that wallet server without having btcd do validation?
1033 2014-05-12 10:39:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If the input contains the signature, is it not signing itself?
1034 2014-05-12 10:40:13 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp#L850
1035 2014-05-12 10:40:29 <sipa> that line applies to the script*PubKey*
1036 2014-05-12 10:41:01 <shesek> sipa, well, you need something that implements the same RPC interface, including their websocket extensions
1037 2014-05-12 10:41:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Huh?
1038 2014-05-12 10:41:10 <shesek> but it seems like they're decoupled other than that
1039 2014-05-12 10:41:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'm not sure I get it
1040 2014-05-12 10:41:39 <shesek> btcwallet is basically just an RPC client to btcd, and an RPC server for the actual wallet GUI (which is also a separate project/process)
1041 2014-05-12 10:42:19 <shesek> you need btcd+btcwallet+btcgui to actually get a running wallet
1042 2014-05-12 10:42:49 <sipa> shesek: what i'm saying is that the wallet-watching thing could be independent from validation, and be simple SPV client
1043 2014-05-12 10:42:59 <sipa> shesek: not saying that bitcoind is any better, btw
1044 2014-05-12 10:43:36 <sipa> shesek: so you can independently choose what wallet features you want, and what validation you want
1045 2014-05-12 10:43:52 <chichov> what's exactly the purpose of the block index?
1046 2014-05-12 10:43:58 <shesek> well, their wallet-watching thing is independent in that it only relies on an RPC interface, so it could work with anything that gives the same API
1047 2014-05-12 10:44:00 <sipa> chichov: finding blocks
1048 2014-05-12 10:44:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: I think I'm confused :-/
1049 2014-05-12 10:44:21 <shesek> but the wallet-watching thing has complete trust over the API it talks to, its not SPV
1050 2014-05-12 10:44:23 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: me too, i'm not actually sure this is usable in any way
1051 2014-05-12 10:44:44 <chichov> sipa: and there is a block number saved in the wallet for ... ?
1052 2014-05-12 10:44:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wait, so it searches, and if it detects a sig in the sPK it deletes it?
1053 2014-05-12 10:45:09 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: yes, which has actual consequences too in some cases
1054 2014-05-12 10:45:12 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: if it detects *the* signature inside the sPK, it deletes it before
1055 2014-05-12 10:45:18 <sipa> petertodd: oh, do tell!
1056 2014-05-12 10:45:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, I see
1057 2014-05-12 10:45:37 <sipa> chichov: the wallet stores a block locator to the best known chain
1058 2014-05-12 10:45:39 <petertodd> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3861
1059 2014-05-12 10:45:45 <petertodd> sipa: which I need to rebase actually...
1060 2014-05-12 10:45:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So `valtype& vchSig    = stacktop(-2);` assigns the signature to vchSig
1061 2014-05-12 10:46:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And then `FindAndDelete(CScript(vchSig));` finds that string and deletes it?
1062 2014-05-12 10:46:24 ahmed_sleep is now known as ahmed_college
1063 2014-05-12 10:46:41 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: yup, same deal in checkmultisig, but then there can be more than one sig deleted
1064 2014-05-12 10:47:08 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: which reminds me that my pull-req doesn't actually test *that* case too, gah
1065 2014-05-12 10:47:13 <sipa> petertodd: ehm, it's merged :)
1066 2014-05-12 10:47:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Huh? No, it's not
1067 2014-05-12 10:47:33 <chichov> sipa: that's an odd thing in my eyes; why would one make it dependent on the wallet? they can be exchanged
1068 2014-05-12 10:47:35 <sipa> oh, no, the other one!
1069 2014-05-12 10:47:45 <sipa> chichov: i don't understand?
1070 2014-05-12 10:47:59 <sipa> chichov: the block index is used for much more than the wallet
1071 2014-05-12 10:48:14 HaltingState has joined
1072 2014-05-12 10:48:15 <chichov> sipa: you could remove the wallet and replace it with another one
1073 2014-05-12 10:48:15 <sipa> it stores all information we have about particular blocks
1074 2014-05-12 10:48:19 <sipa> chichov: yes
1075 2014-05-12 10:48:25 <sipa> chichov: or with multiple ones
1076 2014-05-12 10:48:38 <chichov> sipa: however, this wouldn't change the block index nor the locator to the best known chain
1077 2014-05-12 10:48:55 <sipa> chichov: i think you're confused
1078 2014-05-12 10:49:05 <chichov> sipa: possible
1079 2014-05-12 10:49:19 <sipa> there are two independent parts, the node and the wallet
1080 2014-05-12 10:49:23 <chichov> sipa: maybe I miss the purpose of the locator?
1081 2014-05-12 10:49:49 <sipa> chichov: if you bring a wallet online with a node that has seen blocks in between, you need to know you missed something
1082 2014-05-12 10:50:18 <chichov> sipa: alright, that's the part I was missing
1083 2014-05-12 10:50:32 pierreatwork has joined
1084 2014-05-12 10:50:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But you still have a situation where you can't have a simple CHECKSIG signature in the sPK, I think, because you can't sign the tx because you need to know the txid it's spending which changes when you add the signature
1085 2014-05-12 10:50:37 <chichov> sipa: thanks
1086 2014-05-12 10:51:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's not the signature directly signing itself, sure
1087 2014-05-12 10:51:06 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: SIGHASH_SINGLE bug is the way to get around that problem - you can even trigger the case in a standard transaction
1088 2014-05-12 10:51:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ahhh.
1089 2014-05-12 10:51:28 JackH has joined
1090 2014-05-12 10:51:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|er, wait
1091 2014-05-12 10:51:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What was that again?
1092 2014-05-12 10:51:38 <petertodd> s/Anhh./Aaaarrggggeeeeeee/
1093 2014-05-12 10:51:51 <sipa> petertodd: but with the SIGHASH_SINGLE bug, the sighash becomes entirely independent of anything
1094 2014-05-12 10:52:04 <sipa> petertodd: so how can the signature removal matter?
1095 2014-05-12 10:52:11 <sipa> you're just signing uint256(1)
1096 2014-05-12 10:52:34 <sipa> the only way the signature removal matters is through it being replaced inside the scriptSig being signed
1097 2014-05-12 10:52:36 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: SIGHASH_SINGLE will return 0x01 instead of the hash if the index is wrong
1098 2014-05-12 10:52:43 <petertodd> sipa: CHECKMULTISIG deletes all signatures
1099 2014-05-12 10:52:54 <sipa> ah!
1100 2014-05-12 10:53:06 <sipa> that's what i missed
1101 2014-05-12 10:53:19 <sipa> but for single signature checks, i don't think it can be exploited
1102 2014-05-12 10:53:33 <petertodd> sipa: ...assuming the implementation is correct!
1103 2014-05-12 10:53:44 <sipa> of course
1104 2014-05-12 10:54:02 <petertodd> sipa: at one point I had a bug in python-bitcoinlib where you could have caused an assertion failure
1105 2014-05-12 10:56:00 badhatter^ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1106 2014-05-12 10:56:45 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1107 2014-05-12 10:57:34 JackH has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1108 2014-05-12 11:00:25 W0rmDr1nk has joined
1109 2014-05-12 11:00:52 JackH has joined
1110 2014-05-12 11:06:54 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1111 2014-05-12 11:08:08 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1112 2014-05-12 11:09:21 GAit has joined
1113 2014-05-12 11:11:44 psgs is now known as psgs|away
1114 2014-05-12 11:11:57 Zarutian has joined
1115 2014-05-12 11:13:39 W0rmDr1nk has joined
1116 2014-05-12 11:13:44 KuDeTa_ has joined
1117 2014-05-12 11:14:07 CheckDavid has joined
1118 2014-05-12 11:15:21 KuDeTa has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1119 2014-05-12 11:15:21 KuDeTa_ is now known as KuDeTa
1120 2014-05-12 11:17:54 one_zero has quit ()
1121 2014-05-12 11:18:47 gidze has joined
1122 2014-05-12 11:20:26 ConvivialMatt has joined
1123 2014-05-12 11:20:48 gst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1124 2014-05-12 11:21:31 paveljanik has joined
1125 2014-05-12 11:22:28 WormDr1nk has joined
1126 2014-05-12 11:23:10 Chief_Panda has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1127 2014-05-12 11:24:29 bitwyre has quit ()
1128 2014-05-12 11:25:44 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1129 2014-05-12 11:26:29 gst has joined
1130 2014-05-12 11:28:52 paveljanik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1131 2014-05-12 11:29:04 pierreatwork has joined
1132 2014-05-12 11:35:25 gidze has quit (Quit: gidze)
1133 2014-05-12 11:39:23 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1134 2014-05-12 11:39:57 SwampTony has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1135 2014-05-12 11:40:42 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1136 2014-05-12 11:41:01 benrcole has joined
1137 2014-05-12 11:42:47 phrackage has joined
1138 2014-05-12 11:43:23 fanquake has quit (Quit: fanquake)
1139 2014-05-12 11:43:32 fdi11inger has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1140 2014-05-12 11:45:39 Elglobo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1141 2014-05-12 11:48:42 W0rmDr1nk has joined
1142 2014-05-12 11:49:07 bedeho has joined
1143 2014-05-12 11:49:15 WormDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1144 2014-05-12 11:52:03 HANTI is now known as hanti
1145 2014-05-12 11:54:51 paveljanik has joined
1146 2014-05-12 11:56:40 fdi11inger has joined
1147 2014-05-12 11:57:18 phrackage has quit (Quit: phrackage)
1148 2014-05-12 11:58:13 paveljanik has quit (Client Quit)
1149 2014-05-12 12:04:59 LjL-Tablet has joined
1150 2014-05-12 12:07:31 jokosh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1151 2014-05-12 12:08:20 non2 has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1152 2014-05-12 12:09:12 Elglobo has joined
1153 2014-05-12 12:09:17 Elglobonoob has joined
1154 2014-05-12 12:10:53 SwampTony has joined
1155 2014-05-12 12:11:56 jokosh has joined
1156 2014-05-12 12:12:50 SwampTon_ has joined
1157 2014-05-12 12:15:08 maraoz has joined
1158 2014-05-12 12:15:21 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1159 2014-05-12 12:17:38 SwampTon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1160 2014-05-12 12:22:09 maaku has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1161 2014-05-12 12:26:20 papa has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1162 2014-05-12 12:30:03 WormDr1nk has joined
1163 2014-05-12 12:32:06 SwampTony has joined
1164 2014-05-12 12:32:23 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1165 2014-05-12 12:34:45 mr_burdell has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1166 2014-05-12 12:42:19 papa has joined
1167 2014-05-12 12:42:43 AndyOfiesh has joined
1168 2014-05-12 12:46:33 gsdgdfs has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1169 2014-05-12 12:46:48 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1170 2014-05-12 12:48:05 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1171 2014-05-12 12:50:53 ryanxcharles has joined
1172 2014-05-12 12:51:08 ryanxcharles has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1173 2014-05-12 12:51:45 ryanxcharles has joined
1174 2014-05-12 12:52:53 KawalGrover has joined
1175 2014-05-12 12:53:27 maraoz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1176 2014-05-12 12:55:47 SwampTony has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1177 2014-05-12 12:56:25 SwampTony has joined
1178 2014-05-12 12:58:01 GMP has joined
1179 2014-05-12 13:00:51 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1180 2014-05-12 13:01:17 wallet42 has joined
1181 2014-05-12 13:01:21 wallet42 has quit (Changing host)
1182 2014-05-12 13:01:21 wallet42 has joined
1183 2014-05-12 13:02:37 GMP has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1184 2014-05-12 13:06:40 W0rmDr1nk has joined
1185 2014-05-12 13:07:24 maraoz has joined
1186 2014-05-12 13:07:35 Cryo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1187 2014-05-12 13:08:11 mpmcsweeney has joined
1188 2014-05-12 13:08:11 WormDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1189 2014-05-12 13:12:13 wei__ has joined
1190 2014-05-12 13:12:39 JackH has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1191 2014-05-12 13:14:23 CodeShark has joined
1192 2014-05-12 13:15:07 CodeShar_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1193 2014-05-12 13:16:58 Cryo has joined
1194 2014-05-12 13:16:58 Cryo has quit (Changing host)
1195 2014-05-12 13:16:58 Cryo has joined
1196 2014-05-12 13:18:28 JackH has joined
1197 2014-05-12 13:20:33 mkarrer has quit ()
1198 2014-05-12 13:20:48 dabura667 has joined
1199 2014-05-12 13:20:49 mkarrer has joined
1200 2014-05-12 13:24:01 WormDr1nk has joined
1201 2014-05-12 13:25:47 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1202 2014-05-12 13:26:19 mkarrer has quit ()
1203 2014-05-12 13:26:32 pierreatwork has joined
1204 2014-05-12 13:26:53 agricocb has joined
1205 2014-05-12 13:28:15 mkarrer has joined
1206 2014-05-12 13:29:24 paveljanik has joined
1207 2014-05-12 13:30:46 bedeho has quit ()
1208 2014-05-12 13:30:59 wallet42 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1209 2014-05-12 13:31:59 wallet42 has joined
1210 2014-05-12 13:33:05 badhatter has joined
1211 2014-05-12 13:33:05 badhatter has quit (Changing host)
1212 2014-05-12 13:33:05 badhatter has joined
1213 2014-05-12 13:34:40 altoz has joined
1214 2014-05-12 13:35:51 AndyOfiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1215 2014-05-12 13:37:06 HaltingState has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1216 2014-05-12 13:38:14 <jgarzik> wumpus, sipa: did anyone ever create a 'buildtransaction' RPC along the lines of earlier discussion?  ie. a smarter createrawtransaction that selects coins from a set, picks fees, etc.
1217 2014-05-12 13:38:20 <jgarzik> if not, I might look at that
1218 2014-05-12 13:39:16 <sipa> i haven't
1219 2014-05-12 13:39:58 cagedwisdom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1220 2014-05-12 13:40:01 <venzen> yes, and i ran into a naming issue - the C++ code had an issue with having a number in the name so it's called OUone in this test client
1221 2014-05-12 13:40:06 <venzen> sorry
1222 2014-05-12 13:40:37 gavinandresen has joined
1223 2014-05-12 13:41:47 wallet42 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1224 2014-05-12 13:42:45 KawalGrover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1225 2014-05-12 13:43:52 Pullphinger has joined
1226 2014-05-12 13:44:43 Zarutian has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1227 2014-05-12 13:53:15 wallet42 has joined
1228 2014-05-12 13:53:56 KawalGrover has joined
1229 2014-05-12 13:56:40 SwampTony has joined
1230 2014-05-12 13:57:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jgarzik: the one that's a cross between createrawtransaction and sendtoaddress?
1231 2014-05-12 13:57:31 MiningBuddy- has joined
1232 2014-05-12 13:57:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(/sendmany)
1233 2014-05-12 13:57:57 MiningBuddy has quit (Disconnected by services)
1234 2014-05-12 13:58:00 MiningBuddy- is now known as MiningBuddy
1235 2014-05-12 13:58:01 MiningBuddy has quit (Changing host)
1236 2014-05-12 13:58:01 MiningBuddy has joined
1237 2014-05-12 13:58:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If it weren't for backwards compatibility, I'd suggest renaming createrawtransaction to, I don't know, manualrawtransaction, and using the createrawtransaction command for the semi-automatic one
1238 2014-05-12 13:59:00 <sipa> i'd just have a completerawtransaction
1239 2014-05-12 13:59:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|complete?
1240 2014-05-12 13:59:23 <sipa> that takes the output from createrawtransaction and adds inputs and change as necessary
1241 2014-05-12 13:59:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Interesting
1242 2014-05-12 13:59:43 <sipa> which means it could be used for manually created outputs with weird scriots too
1243 2014-05-12 13:59:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You'd need to make the "inputs" in createRT be allowed to be null
1244 2014-05-12 14:00:22 <sipa> just empty
1245 2014-05-12 14:00:41 <sipa> and it means you could also force particular inputs to be used already
1246 2014-05-12 14:00:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right. Interesting idea
1247 2014-05-12 14:00:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|.
1248 2014-05-12 14:01:06 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1249 2014-05-12 14:01:50 athan has joined
1250 2014-05-12 14:02:11 <GAit> jgarzik: do you have an opinion on http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.bitcoin.devel/5352 ?
1251 2014-05-12 14:03:55 WormDr1nk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1252 2014-05-12 14:04:23 W0rmDr1nk has joined
1253 2014-05-12 14:07:44 <wumpus> jgarzik: not that I know of, that issue's still open
1254 2014-05-12 14:08:49 <wumpus> jgarzik: see for example https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3794
1255 2014-05-12 14:09:38 <wumpus> also https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1637 seems relate
1256 2014-05-12 14:09:39 <wumpus> d
1257 2014-05-12 14:10:22 <wumpus> as I suppose the inputs would have to be locked until the transaction is completed
1258 2014-05-12 14:10:33 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1259 2014-05-12 14:10:55 <sipa> well, that could just be the caller's responsability
1260 2014-05-12 14:10:55 SwampTony has joined
1261 2014-05-12 14:11:07 <sipa> which is not unreasonable for raw api things
1262 2014-05-12 14:11:18 rdymac has joined
1263 2014-05-12 14:12:03 <wumpus> well that's fair as long as there are no races
1264 2014-05-12 14:12:33 <sipa> if the caller knows he's not going to do simultaneous transaction, there is no problem
1265 2014-05-12 14:12:43 <sipa> if he does, he can lockinputs himself
1266 2014-05-12 14:12:43 <jgarzik> ideally it is 100% raw IMO
1267 2014-05-12 14:12:52 <jgarzik> correct, that's my preference
1268 2014-05-12 14:13:01 <jgarzik> related: lockinputs should be persistent
1269 2014-05-12 14:13:06 <sipa> and not automatically locking also means you can do things like double spends with it should you want to
1270 2014-05-12 14:13:12 <wumpus> ok, in that case you probably don't want to link it to the wallet at all
1271 2014-05-12 14:13:16 hearn has quit (Quit: hearn)
1272 2014-05-12 14:13:21 <wumpus> pass in a list of inputs to do selection from
1273 2014-05-12 14:13:24 <jgarzik> wumpus, yep
1274 2014-05-12 14:13:30 <jgarzik> wumpus, like createrawtransaction
1275 2014-05-12 14:13:36 <sipa> yeah, there are various combinations for that
1276 2014-05-12 14:13:47 <sipa> either make it pull inputs from a wallet or pass them yourself
1277 2014-05-12 14:13:54 <sipa> which is ugly in terms of dependencies
1278 2014-05-12 14:14:03 benrcole has joined
1279 2014-05-12 14:14:09 AndyOfiesh has joined
1280 2014-05-12 14:14:15 <wumpus> I don't like such functions that have optional wallet dependency
1281 2014-05-12 14:14:45 <jgarzik> createrawtransactions is a simple, workable approach: take set of inputs
1282 2014-05-12 14:14:53 hearn has joined
1283 2014-05-12 14:14:55 <wumpus> makes it harder to split off the wallet, where would it end up?
1284 2014-05-12 14:14:55 <jgarzik> listunspent provides the set, then edited/filtered as desired
1285 2014-05-12 14:14:57 <wumpus> right
1286 2014-05-12 14:15:00 <sipa> wumpus: neither do i
1287 2014-05-12 14:15:12 <sipa> ideally we just have wallet versions and non-wallet versions
1288 2014-05-12 14:15:23 <sipa> one can just be a convenience wrapper on top of the other
1289 2014-05-12 14:15:46 <wumpus> having a wallet-specific function sounds good to me
1290 2014-05-12 14:15:52 <sipa> signrawtransactiin already has the same problem
1291 2014-05-12 14:15:58 <jgarzik> I'll build the low-level one first, and then see if there is demand for another RPC that auto-pulls from wallet
1292 2014-05-12 14:16:04 <jgarzik> sipa, agree
1293 2014-05-12 14:16:05 <sipa> indeed
1294 2014-05-12 14:16:17 <wumpus> yes, signrawtransaction has the same problem, we have to resolve that at some point
1295 2014-05-12 14:16:34 christop1e has joined
1296 2014-05-12 14:16:44 <sipa> but the non-wallet specific version of sign and of complete could just be implement in a client library too
1297 2014-05-12 14:16:48 <sipa> instead of as rpc
1298 2014-05-12 14:16:50 <jgarzik> the nitpick engineer in me would like to break signraw* compat, and have signraw* not talk to wallet
1299 2014-05-12 14:17:08 <sipa> raw seems to imply to do things manually :)
1300 2014-05-12 14:17:31 <sipa> and the optional passing of inputs, keys, redeemscripts, ... confuses the hell out of people
1301 2014-05-12 14:17:31 <wumpus> jgarzik: yeah - that already happens when compiling without wallet anyway :)
1302 2014-05-12 14:17:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|17:11:37 <wumpus> I don't like such functions that have optional wallet dependency <-- that's why sipa's completerawtransaction may be useful
1303 2014-05-12 14:17:53 <sipa> well completerawtransaction could have a wallet and nonwallet version too
1304 2014-05-12 14:18:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: huh?
1305 2014-05-12 14:18:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|How would complete work for non-wallet?
1306 2014-05-12 14:18:17 <wumpus> you pass your own list of inputs
1307 2014-05-12 14:18:18 <jgarzik> wumpus, point..
1308 2014-05-12 14:18:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Give it a bunch of utxos to choose from?
1309 2014-05-12 14:18:21 <sipa> by passing inputs manually
1310 2014-05-12 14:18:43 <wumpus> yes
1311 2014-05-12 14:18:45 <sipa> and keys
1312 2014-05-12 14:18:51 <sipa> (for change...)
1313 2014-05-12 14:18:52 <sipa> ugly
1314 2014-05-12 14:18:59 Elza has quit (K-Lined)
1315 2014-05-12 14:19:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah, I think if you're manually managing your utxos you can probably do your own selection
1316 2014-05-12 14:19:25 bkbk has joined
1317 2014-05-12 14:19:37 <sipa> or just pass a list of scriptPubKey outputs that may or may not be used for change
1318 2014-05-12 14:19:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, a bool for whether or not to automatically lock the inputs on complete might be good
1319 2014-05-12 14:19:48 <sipa> don't overengineer
1320 2014-05-12 14:20:07 <sipa> i don't like rpcs thatbhave stateful effects
1321 2014-05-12 14:20:13 <sipa> if you need them, call them explicitly
1322 2014-05-12 14:20:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah, for that reason I wouldn't suggest doing that for createraw
1323 2014-05-12 14:20:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But with complete, you're telling it to do its own selection
1324 2014-05-12 14:21:08 <wumpus> yes, doing the locking automatically was a bad idea, let's leave it at that
1325 2014-05-12 14:21:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Seems like it would be annoying to have to go out of your way to decode the completed tx and then go back and lock those utxos
1326 2014-05-12 14:21:41 <wumpus> especially if lockunspent becomes persistent it's a good way to get your wallet into a weird state
1327 2014-05-12 14:21:58 <wumpus> "...why are these inputs locked again?"
1328 2014-05-12 14:22:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: I'm not so sure that autolocking is bad for a theoretical completeRT
1329 2014-05-12 14:22:15 LjL-Tablet has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1330 2014-05-12 14:22:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: well, if you're working with completert, you'd expect locks
1331 2014-05-12 14:22:33 <wumpus> you'd need some kind of transactionality to do that well
1332 2014-05-12 14:22:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or, you should
1333 2014-05-12 14:22:43 <wumpus> which is a very scary rabbit hole
1334 2014-05-12 14:23:28 <sipa> it may mean you end up with weird selections because some coins don't get unlocked
1335 2014-05-12 14:23:47 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: yeah, but what if an operation fails...
1336 2014-05-12 14:23:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3794#issue-28712936 <-- do you mean or at a low level?
1337 2014-05-12 14:23:57 <sipa> "why is it using unconfirmed coins when i have 100000+ confirmed oned"?
1338 2014-05-12 14:24:24 <wumpus> people would start to expect it to auto-unlock the inputs again in that case, and so on,
1339 2014-05-12 14:24:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If an operation fails, you can detect that and unlock them
1340 2014-05-12 14:24:43 <wumpus> requiring it to be done manually is the sane way
1341 2014-05-12 14:24:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's what I meant
1342 2014-05-12 14:24:54 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1343 2014-05-12 14:25:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You the user, not you the coder
1344 2014-05-12 14:25:06 <wumpus> you may not need locking at all at the input level if you only submit one transaction at a time, serially
1345 2014-05-12 14:25:13 <sipa> they are low level utility functions
1346 2014-05-12 14:25:22 <sipa> don't give them too much magic behaviour
1347 2014-05-12 14:25:26 <wumpus> yep
1348 2014-05-12 14:25:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: I'd argue that completerawtransaction is a higher level function
1349 2014-05-12 14:26:47 <sipa> createrawtransaction is the address part of transactions, conoleterawtransaction is the utxo-interaction part, signrawtransaction is the key-interaction part, sendrawtransaction is the p2p-interaction part
1350 2014-05-12 14:27:07 <helo> *cannoli
1351 2014-05-12 14:27:14 <sipa> canneloni
1352 2014-05-12 14:33:54 WishBoy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1353 2014-05-12 14:34:11 WishBoy has joined
1354 2014-05-12 14:35:02 <jrick> sipa, shesek: re btcd and btcwallet, the point was to not be an spv wallet, so in sitatuions where you do run the full node (web services come to mind), you maintain complete control over what txs wallet sees as valid and don't have to rely on other nodes you don't control giving you incorrect info
1355 2014-05-12 14:35:18 <jrick> now we do realize that does cause issues for users who don't want to run the full node
1356 2014-05-12 14:35:37 <jrick> it's actually less private then, because the full node has knowledge of all your addresses and spendable outputs
1357 2014-05-12 14:37:45 <jrick> we probably end up doing an svp wallet at some point
1358 2014-05-12 14:37:49 <jrick> *we'll
1359 2014-05-12 14:37:56 <jrick> ugh *spv
1360 2014-05-12 14:38:01 <jrick> can't type
1361 2014-05-12 14:38:46 gidze has joined
1362 2014-05-12 14:40:03 DougieBot5000 has joined
1363 2014-05-12 14:40:03 <wumpus> you can always have a SPV wallet connect only to a full node that you control, too
1364 2014-05-12 14:40:14 <jrick> yeah
1365 2014-05-12 14:40:22 <jrick> it was probably shortsightness on our part
1366 2014-05-12 14:40:35 <jrick> but it does work pretty well for us writing services on top of
1367 2014-05-12 14:41:38 SwampTony has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1368 2014-05-12 14:42:29 christop1e has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1369 2014-05-12 14:42:44 <sipa> yeah, that's what i mean: have a full node and a wallet server that itself uses spv, so it can run against your own validation node (which can become super ootimized for just one purpose), or to any other nodes on the network, or to other full node implementations
1370 2014-05-12 14:44:33 christophe has joined
1371 2014-05-12 14:44:41 <jrick> davec and I had this discussion a while back and now I'm pretty much convinced we will need to either add SPV to btcwallet as a mode, or pull out all the common components and reuse them for a new SPV wallet
1372 2014-05-12 14:44:56 <jrick> probably the latter
1373 2014-05-12 14:46:04 <jrick> idealy both would keep the same external interface though, so clients can be compatible with both
1374 2014-05-12 14:48:44 Subo1977_ has joined
1375 2014-05-12 14:50:51 gidze has quit (Quit: gidze)
1376 2014-05-12 14:52:00 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1377 2014-05-12 14:52:29 posita1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1378 2014-05-12 14:54:32 gavinandresen has left ()
1379 2014-05-12 14:55:03 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1380 2014-05-12 14:55:45 paveljanik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1381 2014-05-12 14:56:30 roidster has joined
1382 2014-05-12 14:56:31 kermit has joined
1383 2014-05-12 14:56:51 gavinandresen has joined
1384 2014-05-12 14:59:04 davout has quit (Quit: kthxbye)
1385 2014-05-12 14:59:12 fdi11inger has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1386 2014-05-12 15:00:40 kermit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1387 2014-05-12 15:01:35 <hearn> hey gavinandresen
1388 2014-05-12 15:01:50 <gavinandresen> hey mike
1389 2014-05-12 15:02:41 badhatter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1390 2014-05-12 15:04:28 * sipa -> Amsterdam
1391 2014-05-12 15:05:19 <hearn> sipa: enjoy! don’t booze too hard
1392 2014-05-12 15:05:24 <hearn> gavinandresen: how are floating fees coming along?
1393 2014-05-12 15:06:06 <gavinandresen> hearn: the estimating part is done, waiting in the 0.10 queue.
1394 2014-05-12 15:06:39 <gavinandresen> hearn: the use-the-estimates-in-the-wallet-code part is still in the middle of testing/debugging, I plan to get back to it after the conference
1395 2014-05-12 15:06:46 <hearn> ah ok.
1396 2014-05-12 15:07:05 <gavinandresen> I've been a busy boy the last month with travel and interviews, it's been hard to block off time to write code
1397 2014-05-12 15:07:33 <hearn> i’ve been wondering how to make it stable - people are incentivised to set a fee as low as possible, but then transactions will often be right on the edge of the estimates and some nodes with slightly higher estimates will reject. i wonder if the estimates should be heavily quantised.
1398 2014-05-12 15:07:38 <hearn> yes, i saw!
1399 2014-05-12 15:07:52 <hearn> i hope all the advocacy is working
1400 2014-05-12 15:07:59 <gavinandresen> i hope so too
1401 2014-05-12 15:08:20 lalopalo has joined
1402 2014-05-12 15:08:31 <jcorgan> hearn: not familiar with what has been done so far.  is there enough information to extrapolate a "fee vs. probability of inclusion in the next block" type distribution?
1403 2014-05-12 15:08:49 <gavinandresen> re: stable:  given the increasing diversity of wallets and applications, each of which will do fees differently, I think it will all work out OK
1404 2014-05-12 15:08:50 <hearn> yes that’s what it does
1405 2014-05-12 15:09:43 <gavinandresen> hearn: making the wallet use the fee estimation code turned into a big "unravel the whole sweater by pulling on one little string" kind of thing
1406 2014-05-12 15:09:57 <hearn> yes. i’m a bit worried it’ll be the same for bitcoinj
1407 2014-05-12 15:10:00 <gavinandresen> I'm still trying to decide if I'll rewrite the coin selection algorithm from scratch or not.....
1408 2014-05-12 15:10:08 <hearn> oh dear.
1409 2014-05-12 15:10:11 <gavinandresen> mmm
1410 2014-05-12 15:10:32 <hearn> andreas has been telling me that for some reason it’s harder to drop the hard coded fee by 10x than he was expecting, and now he wants me to write the patch (for bitcoinj)
1411 2014-05-12 15:10:42 <hearn> fees …. so damn complicated!
1412 2014-05-12 15:10:51 <gavinandresen> simple in theory….
1413 2014-05-12 15:11:00 <sipa> if only bitcoin was worthless
1414 2014-05-12 15:11:07 <hearn> the other thing that’s complicated - if fees float above the current hard coded limits then it’s effectively a backwards incompatible protocol change that will render old wallets unusable
1415 2014-05-12 15:11:11 <sipa> nobody would bother trying to minize those damn fees!
1416 2014-05-12 15:11:13 <hearn> i am wondering if we need a fee cap
1417 2014-05-12 15:11:37 <gavinandresen> is that like a dunce cap?
1418 2014-05-12 15:11:45 <hearn> i prefer to think of it as a wizard ca
1419 2014-05-12 15:11:48 <hearn> *cap
1420 2014-05-12 15:12:05 * hearn never managed to get used to these darn apple keyboards
1421 2014-05-12 15:12:35 * gavinandresen is typing on an old Microsoft Natural Keyboard Elite....
1422 2014-05-12 15:12:46 <gavinandresen> (on a mac)
1423 2014-05-12 15:13:22 <gavinandresen> hearn: fee cap, meaning what?  Fees need to be a market, and rise or fall based on supply and demand for block space
1424 2014-05-12 15:13:25 <hearn> yeah. i need to get that set up.
1425 2014-05-12 15:13:35 * sipa is typing on a nexus 5 touchscreen
1426 2014-05-12 15:13:38 <hearn> gavinandresen: i mean temporarily prevent them rising above the current fee level for a while. until we’re OK breaking old wallets
1427 2014-05-12 15:14:11 <hearn> gavinandresen: otherwise if the network decides the fee should actually be something higher, old wallets will produce transactions with insufficiently large fees and their transactions will get dropped
1428 2014-05-12 15:14:12 <jcorgan> i don't understand what you mean by "current fee level".  It's a market.
1429 2014-05-12 15:14:23 <sipa> currently it's not much of a market
1430 2014-05-12 15:14:23 <hearn> the hard coded fees we use at present
1431 2014-05-12 15:14:27 <sipa> it certainly will be
1432 2014-05-12 15:14:30 <gavinandresen> I don't see how we prevent them rising; the 0.9 release defaults were supposed to drive fees down, but I'm not sure it did (going to try to look at that data today)
1433 2014-05-12 15:14:36 <hearn> it’s a market in which all prices are set by central committee :-)
1434 2014-05-12 15:14:46 <Apocalyptic> "It's a market." not really, given the relay fee policy
1435 2014-05-12 15:14:50 <uiop> hearn: why would that break new wallets? somehow the wallet data depends on a fee-level used at some prev time?
1436 2014-05-12 15:14:55 <hearn> gavinandresen: i doubt it’s made any difference yet, at least bitcoinj still sets the old fees. we had to wait for people to upgrade before it’s possible to use the new fee level
1437 2014-05-12 15:15:00 <Apocalyptic> and the fact you probably can't connect directly to a miner
1438 2014-05-12 15:15:18 <uiop> hearn: err, i meant break *old* wallets
1439 2014-05-12 15:15:20 <hearn> i’ve been wanting to write a little app that measures the success rate of transactions at the new fee level to see how well it works
1440 2014-05-12 15:15:25 <hearn> but i didn’t do it yet
1441 2014-05-12 15:15:41 <gavinandresen> hearn: I don't think it has made a difference, either-- not sure if that is because not enough miners have upgraded or because miners are insisting on fees to mostly cover the cost of larger blocks
1442 2014-05-12 15:15:48 ConvivialMatt has quit (Quit: ConvivialMatt)
1443 2014-05-12 15:16:04 <hearn> it’s because no wallets followed the fee drop yet
1444 2014-05-12 15:16:08 Grouver has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1445 2014-05-12 15:16:10 <hearn> users don’t set fees manually in most wallets, right?
1446 2014-05-12 15:16:26 <uiop> hearn: (oh (reading along), the wallets stores a "default fee" or something i gather)
1447 2014-05-12 15:16:36 <uiop> ah
1448 2014-05-12 15:16:43 <hearn> so they have to wait until their wallet updates and the new fee level becomes the default .and wallet authors won’t do that until the success rate is high enough. currently 0.9+ is 45% of the network. that’s probably good enough but AFAIK nobody has measured it
1449 2014-05-12 15:16:47 <jcorgan> i'd be wary of top-down engineering this
1450 2014-05-12 15:17:19 <hearn> my plan is to work on the fee drop after the conference, along with finishing hd wallets and other projects
1451 2014-05-12 15:17:23 <jcorgan> giving people more information to make tx fee "bids" can only help
1452 2014-05-12 15:17:30 bitblender has quit ()
1453 2014-05-12 15:17:44 <uiop> hearn: barring a centralized "market" fee data source, the user would have to incrementally update the fee manually
1454 2014-05-12 15:17:50 <hearn> as part of that i’ll write a little tool that just makes a spend every day at the new low fee and see how long it takes for them to confirm
1455 2014-05-12 15:17:58 <jcorgan> but "fee caps", etc., scare me
1456 2014-05-12 15:18:05 <gavinandresen> hearn: according to the estimatefee code, you need a HIGHER than old-default-fee to get confirmed quickly.  So I think fees are already being squeeze upward, because miners a limiting supply of block space, because, I assume, they want to keep their blocks small.
1457 2014-05-12 15:18:12 <hearn> uiop: this is about the floating fee work that’s already being done, please see the pull reqs on github for details
1458 2014-05-12 15:18:44 <uiop> hearn: ah, thx
1459 2014-05-12 15:19:00 <hearn> gavinandresen: i think we looked at this before didn’t we? most people are setting the default fee and hardly anyone sets lower, because no wallets let you do that anymore. then you have a few outliers who pay higher fees for no discernable reason.
1460 2014-05-12 15:19:09 <sipa> fee to get s transaction relayed is much lower than to get it mined quickly, i believe
1461 2014-05-12 15:19:15 <hearn> gavinandresen: given how fees work today i’m not sure trying to read any kind of rational behaviour into it is going to work
1462 2014-05-12 15:19:27 ConvivialMatt has joined
1463 2014-05-12 15:19:32 <gavinandresen> hearn: I'm saying there IS a discernable reason: if you want confirmation in the next two or three blocks, you need to set a higher fee
1464 2014-05-12 15:19:45 dfletcher has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1465 2014-05-12 15:19:45 banghouse has joined
1466 2014-05-12 15:19:56 <hearn> that’s not been my experience. _all_ my transactions have the default fee and all confirm within one block, that i remember
1467 2014-05-12 15:19:57 <uiop> you're essentially placing a limit order at the "top of the book"
1468 2014-05-12 15:20:13 gidze has joined
1469 2014-05-12 15:20:16 <hearn> there are no bitcoinj users that ever change away from the default fee. yet, we get no complaints about transactions being slow.
1470 2014-05-12 15:20:21 <hearn> so i think that reading of the data can’t be quite right
1471 2014-05-12 15:21:00 <sipa> gavin's data may be based on a wider selection of transactions than yours
1472 2014-05-12 15:21:13 <sipa> perhaps some that are larger or smaller amounts
1473 2014-05-12 15:21:35 <gavinandresen> hearn: all of my transactions go through quickly, too, but that is because they are high-priority: fairly large BTC value (I'm typically spending a 0.5-or-larger inputs) that has been in my wallet a long time.
1474 2014-05-12 15:21:44 <jcorgan> if there is a uniformity of fees because most people use the defaults, how many of those people would change their behavior if they had actual information about the current state of the fee market?
1475 2014-05-12 15:22:15 <hearn> well, at any rate, the situation i’m thinking about is what if the min relay fee rises to a level where old wallets make unrelayable transactions
1476 2014-05-12 15:22:20 <hearn> same for dust limit
1477 2014-05-12 15:22:28 <hearn> old wallets would just silently break - not good
1478 2014-05-12 15:23:06 <jcorgan> oh, i should familiarize myself with the work you've already done--i was unaware this would affect min relay fee
1479 2014-05-12 15:23:17 <hearn> jcorgan: the way it’ll be exposed to users is (most likely) a slider that lets them pick how quickly they want their transactions to confirm.
1480 2014-05-12 15:23:19 <gavinandresen> hearn: right; replacing the min relay fee and dust limit with some kind of "active queue management" transaction-dropping policy would be the right thing to do
1481 2014-05-12 15:23:34 kermit has joined
1482 2014-05-12 15:24:02 <hearn> jcorgan: and then they can slide it further along and be told what lower fee they’d pay, with a time estimate for confirmation. the UI is crap but it’s inherent in the way we are trying to use fees as a load control mechanism. my hope is that fees most users pay will simply fall to zero
1483 2014-05-12 15:24:15 <jcorgan> hearn: agree that is the right "metric" to expose to users.  perhaps even making low/normal/high priority choice rather than a slider, but that could be overriden by someone who knows what they are doing
1484 2014-05-12 15:24:20 <gavinandresen> hearn: I've backed away from using the fee estimation code to set those
1485 2014-05-12 15:24:24 <hearn> gavinandresen: ah ok
1486 2014-05-12 15:24:32 <hearn> gavinandresen: so the min relay fee and dust limits would still be hard coded?
1487 2014-05-12 15:24:59 <gavinandresen> hearn: … until somebody writes code to relay all transactions until your CPU or bandwidth is saturated....
1488 2014-05-12 15:25:30 dipendra has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1489 2014-05-12 15:25:47 <uiop> it'd be interesting to compute a statistic list (#blocks-to-wait)/(%-of-moving-avg-of-txn-fee)
1490 2014-05-12 15:26:08 <uiop> i guess that'd be a prereq for being able to calibrate a slider for "how long you want to wait"
1491 2014-05-12 15:26:19 <gavinandresen> hearn: I agree with you, the default should be "relay everything, unless we get saturated, in which case start dropping smelly stuff we don't like"
1492 2014-05-12 15:26:26 <hearn> uiop: we already wrote code to do that.
1493 2014-05-12 15:26:32 saulimus has joined
1494 2014-05-12 15:26:33 <hearn> uiop: gavin and i worked on this at the end of last year/start of this year.
1495 2014-05-12 15:26:34 <uiop> that stat would/might also drift at non-slow rate, requiring constant updates (?)
1496 2014-05-12 15:26:37 <uiop> hearn: oh cool
1497 2014-05-12 15:26:42 <hearn> uiop: it’s not merged yet though
1498 2014-05-12 15:26:53 <jcorgan> so, fee estimation to allow users to more intelligently select TX fees seems intuitively obviously a good thing.  Using this same real-time info to set dust and relay limits, hard for me to guess the possible unintended effects
1499 2014-05-12 15:27:47 ThomasV has joined
1500 2014-05-12 15:27:50 <hearn> i’m not sure it’s so intuitive or obvious, actually. i see it as a titantic pain in the ass for everyone, that makes bitcoin far harder for everyone to use and reason about. for example, for the case where people are trying to buy some pizza or a coffee and they pay with a zero fee low priority transaction, the merchant may justifiably be annoyed about that
1501 2014-05-12 15:27:58 <hearn> basically bitcoins are not at all fungible and fees are a big part of the reason why
1502 2014-05-12 15:28:06 posita has joined
1503 2014-05-12 15:28:06 <hearn> however, we have no other choice at the moment
1504 2014-05-12 15:28:41 <sipa> i think we'll need to go through a period of floating fees that may increase inconvenience for a while
1505 2014-05-12 15:28:49 <hearn> the floating fee framework _is_ the right way to go. i’m just hoping that we get another nice 10x increase in value :) and then the fee would end up being like 100 satoshis or something,and at that point i hope as a community we can just say “screw it, let’s just go back to the old days when all txns were free and only priority mattered"
1506 2014-05-12 15:29:02 <sipa> because i don't think we can correctly predict how everything in the rcosystem will react
1507 2014-05-12 15:29:07 <hearn> right
1508 2014-05-12 15:29:33 <hearn> the flexibility is important, even though it complicates the user model and programming model signficantly. however if the hard-coded relay limits don’t flex, that does simplify matters a lot
1509 2014-05-12 15:30:05 <jcorgan> adding information to allow users to make choices--don't see how that can hurt.  changing behavior of the node consensus might need to come later, after a period of adjustment
1510 2014-05-12 15:30:42 tjopper1 has joined
1511 2014-05-12 15:30:45 <hearn> more choices aren’t always good. sometimes it’s just complexity that people would be better off without
1512 2014-05-12 15:30:47 <sipa> an intermediate stage may be making the relay fee something thay is a small multiple of what confirms in a reasonably long time
1513 2014-05-12 15:31:08 <sipa> rather than "relay until you're saturatrd"
1514 2014-05-12 15:32:15 <hearn> sipa: i was thinking more about your signed paymentack idea. the more i think about it, the more it seems like it might be unfortunately needed. with floating fees it is always possible to try and pay bitcoins in a way the merchant does not accept (without CPFP)
1515 2014-05-12 15:32:28 <jcorgan> well, if most users just use the default, then having a the low/normal/high selector, with a default of normal, could then be tuned to use the fee estimation in an intelligent way, without overloading them with too many choices.
1516 2014-05-12 15:32:31 t7 has quit (Quit: home)
1517 2014-05-12 15:32:35 <gavinandresen> sipa: mmm.  my original estimatefees pull request did something like that, but with randomness thrown in so the boundary between "is relayed" and "not relayed" was fuzzy and decayed.
1518 2014-05-12 15:32:51 <posita> Not to stick my $1.05 where it doesn't belong, but hard coding limits (e.g., minimum output size, fee size, etc.) does not reduce complexity. It only reduces complications in the software. It likely has unintended consequences which increases market complexity. In other words, it takes something complicated but tractable and trades it for something complex, the cost of which is born by others.
1519 2014-05-12 15:33:08 <sipa> gavinandresen: right
1520 2014-05-12 15:33:22 <posita> ^… consequences which increase market complexity … .
1521 2014-05-12 15:33:23 <sipa> gavinandresen: we don't need to solve the min relay fee problem immediately though
1522 2014-05-12 15:33:57 A has quit (an!~Alan@173.216.85.78|Quit: ::www.allclassical.org::)
1523 2014-05-12 15:34:13 <sipa> hearn: it's unfortunate that it needs an extra communicatiin step, but i really like how it makes several "should not hapoen but we can't really prevent it" cases bulletproof
1524 2014-05-12 15:34:16 <hearn> posita: quite possibly yes, but reducing complexity in the software is rather important too
1525 2014-05-12 15:34:23 <gavinandresen> sipa: yes, convincing miners to make bigger blocks is much more urgent
1526 2014-05-12 15:35:24 <sipa> the min relay fee should eventually just be an anti-dos mechanism (and as such may be replaced by measurijg your mempool performance and tweaking based on it)
1527 2014-05-12 15:36:02 <hearn> sipa: and i think peter is right also. for the case where the merchant broadcasts immediately like today direct submission only is fine. but if the recipient might not do that, then you have to broadcast for them, and they end up stuck with whatever form of payment you gave. so i am wondering if bip70 needs an “optional boolean maybe_delayed_broadcast” flag for static stealth requests etc
1528 2014-05-12 15:36:14 <hearn> so you can get the change when sending to a static/“slow” payment request
1529 2014-05-12 15:36:39 <hearn> actually i have a whole shopping list of upgrades to bip70 that are queuing up
1530 2014-05-12 15:36:41 <posita> hearn: Of course. I understand the importance of reducing the potential for error in software that handles money (or money-esque things). My intention was to respectfully caution that one should not overestimate one's ability to set prices. Getting it wrong is destructive, and they're very easy to get wrong.
1531 2014-05-12 15:36:44 <sipa> hearn: imho the merchant should always take the responsability of broadcasting
1532 2014-05-12 15:36:47 <hearn> (small upgrades)
1533 2014-05-12 15:36:50 paveljanik has joined
1534 2014-05-12 15:37:06 <sipa> hearn: the only reason for broadcasting yourself is because they would be malicious and not do so
1535 2014-05-12 15:37:16 <hearn> posita: yes absolutely. we’re not talking about fixing certain prices because we think we’re awesome at planned economies. these are just engineering tradeoffs.
1536 2014-05-12 15:37:30 <hearn> sipa: well or because it’s a person to person payment and that person may be offline for a while.
1537 2014-05-12 15:37:36 <sipa> which signed acks does make safe
1538 2014-05-12 15:37:41 <sipa> anyway
1539 2014-05-12 15:37:44 * sipa off
1540 2014-05-12 15:39:15 <posita> hearn: Understood. :-) Now that I've cautioned against planning hubris, let me break my own rules and ask if anyone has considered correlating a "recommended" fee to difficulty (as a proxy for traffic as a proxy for network value)?
1541 2014-05-12 15:39:32 <posita> (You guys have probably already thought of that. I'll be quiet now.) :-)
1542 2014-05-12 15:39:57 <hearn> the way fees are going they’re just used for load control, and to slightly incentivise checking by miners.
1543 2014-05-12 15:40:02 ConvivialMatt has quit (Quit: ConvivialMatt)
1544 2014-05-12 15:40:09 <hearn> how to best incentivise mining in future is a different matter
1545 2014-05-12 15:44:30 lalopalo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1546 2014-05-12 15:45:43 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1547 2014-05-12 15:49:07 <posita> Meaning you're worried that mining fees aren't a good enough mechanism?
1548 2014-05-12 15:50:15 LjL-Tablet has joined
1549 2014-05-12 15:50:21 MolokoDesk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1550 2014-05-12 15:51:28 dfletcher has joined
1551 2014-05-12 15:51:49 melvster has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1552 2014-05-12 15:52:45 melvster has joined
1553 2014-05-12 15:53:04 <hearn> posita: by themselves they should (according to theory) trend to zero or slightly above zero assuming sufficient network capacity
1554 2014-05-12 15:53:13 <hearn> posita: so that won’t be enough to fund lots of mining
1555 2014-05-12 15:54:11 LjL-Tablet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1556 2014-05-12 15:54:51 tombtc has joined
1557 2014-05-12 15:55:46 Gokuson has left ()
1558 2014-05-12 15:56:35 dfletcher has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1559 2014-05-12 15:57:18 roconnor has joined
1560 2014-05-12 15:57:37 <posita> hearn: Respectfully, I'm not sure that's quite accurate. Assuming mining fees are not fixed, assuming blocks behave like a commodities, and assuming sufficient demand, over time mining fees should approach the marginal cost of mining (less any mining reward).
1561 2014-05-12 15:58:24 <hearn> what is the cost of mining?
1562 2014-05-12 15:58:31 JackH has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1563 2014-05-12 15:58:38 <posita> Marginal cost may be lowered by faster, and less power hungry processors, but it won't be zero (especially when the mining reward subsidy goes away).
1564 2014-05-12 15:58:40 <hearn> or rather, what is the marginal cost of mining?
1565 2014-05-12 15:58:51 <posita> Meaning a hard figure? I have no idea.
1566 2014-05-12 15:59:08 <hearn> fees don’t pay for mining. fees pay for inclusion in a block. subtle yet important difference
1567 2014-05-12 15:59:16 <hearn> think about it. what’s the marginal cost of adding another transaction to your block?
1568 2014-05-12 15:59:18 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1569 2014-05-12 15:59:37 <hearn> it’s very low. basically the cost of checking the signatures + increased orphan risk cost, which is a function of how good our technology is at quickly spreading block solutions around
1570 2014-05-12 15:59:53 <hearn> it has nothing to do with the “right” amount of mining, which is at any rate a very complex and debatable topic
1571 2014-05-12 15:59:56 <posita> I don't think it's linear.
1572 2014-05-12 16:00:25 dfletcher has joined
1573 2014-05-12 16:00:26 <posita> Right, the interesting thing about this experiment is the variable difficulty (i.e,. fewer miner participants mean any remaining don't have to work as hard).
1574 2014-05-12 16:00:29 <hearn> a miner has no incentive to _not_ include a fee paying transaction. it’s just leaving money on the table. ignoring propagation-related orphaning, it makes sense to include all transactions
1575 2014-05-12 16:00:32 MolokoDeck has joined
1576 2014-05-12 16:00:40 <hearn> and that drives the cost of a tx down to just above zero
1577 2014-05-12 16:00:46 <hearn> the solution may involve network assurance contracts
1578 2014-05-12 16:01:26 stuntkite has joined
1579 2014-05-12 16:01:40 bkbk has quit ()
1580 2014-05-12 16:01:43 copumpkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1581 2014-05-12 16:01:58 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1582 2014-05-12 16:02:29 JackH has joined
1583 2014-05-12 16:02:40 gidze has quit (Quit: gidze)
1584 2014-05-12 16:03:23 <wumpus> it makes sense to include all transactions, as long as blocks are not full
1585 2014-05-12 16:03:49 <posita> Assume no mining reward for the time being. In a market of competitive mining (i.e., high difficulty), the cost of including the first transaction in a block is very high. At some point one reaches break-even (accumulation of fees). After that, perhaps you're right, to a point, that including an additional transaction requires near zero (recalculating Merkle tree and tweaking the block header).
1586 2014-05-12 16:04:00 <posita> Right, blocks are not boundless.
1587 2014-05-12 16:04:04 <wumpus> the limited size of blocks causes there to be upward pressure to the fee
1588 2014-05-12 16:04:33 <posita> So there might be a situation where people are no longer competing for marginal mining fees. What they're competing for is access in a limited block size.
1589 2014-05-12 16:04:36 Eiii has joined
1590 2014-05-12 16:04:36 Eiii has quit (Changing host)
1591 2014-05-12 16:04:36 Eiii has joined
1592 2014-05-12 16:04:39 <hearn> posita: yes right, that’s what i’m talking about, when there’s no mining reward left
1593 2014-05-12 16:05:08 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1594 2014-05-12 16:05:33 wei__ has quit (Quit: wei__)
1595 2014-05-12 16:05:56 <posita> I still think variable fees allows different miners to serve different markets in ways that will over time achieve equilibrium much faster than anything that can be "designed".
1596 2014-05-12 16:06:23 LjL-Tablet2 has joined
1597 2014-05-12 16:06:27 <hearn> we assume a future in which block rewards fall to zero (or close enough nobody cares), and in which the system is not particularly capacity limited
1598 2014-05-12 16:06:32 roshanklissarov has joined
1599 2014-05-12 16:06:44 <hearn> as obviously if eveyone wants to use bitcoin but the system scales so badly they can’t use it, that’s a pretty nasty kind of failure
1600 2014-05-12 16:06:52 <hearn> so then you get this downward spiral in fees
1601 2014-05-12 16:07:05 <wumpus> I think the capacity limit is important, otherwise there is nothing to compete for
1602 2014-05-12 16:07:11 jordandotdev has joined
1603 2014-05-12 16:07:25 <posita> One approach may be to start a mining pool that works off of assurance contracts (kind of a voluntary tax). A competitor might charge higher fees for space in their blocks. Both can coexist, correct?
1604 2014-05-12 16:07:51 maraoz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1605 2014-05-12 16:07:56 ryanxcha_ has joined
1606 2014-05-12 16:07:56 stuntkite has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1607 2014-05-12 16:08:01 roshanklissarov is now known as rk
1608 2014-05-12 16:08:09 ryanxcha_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1609 2014-05-12 16:08:25 christoph_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1610 2014-05-12 16:08:41 ryanxcha_ has joined
1611 2014-05-12 16:09:00 <posita> hearn: Yes, scalability problems lead to volatility. Volatility risks abandonment (but it does not guarantee it).
1612 2014-05-12 16:09:00 lalopalo has joined
1613 2014-05-12 16:09:40 <hearn> posita: special pools are not necessary. we need a minor protocol tweak or so for truly minimal trust but entities who are interested in more mining power can craft an assurance contract that pays all to fees and then release it for whoever finds the next block
1614 2014-05-12 16:09:46 <hearn> it can be automated so there’s one contract formed per block
1615 2014-05-12 16:10:06 W0rmDr1nk has joined
1616 2014-05-12 16:10:10 <hearn> wumpus: well we went around all this last year. there are better ways than trying to engineer artificial shortages (not a great plan for success at the best of times)
1617 2014-05-12 16:10:12 <wumpus> but even in an utopian future without limits where blocks can grow unbounded, there will be a time that transactions give too little fee to be worth the extra work of including them (and the time it takes to broadcast the block)
1618 2014-05-12 16:10:14 <posita> hearn: You may very well be right about a downward spiral in fees, but I'm not so sure. I think it depends on a lot of assumptions that may not end up being true.
1619 2014-05-12 16:10:20 <hearn> and it’s a long way from now. mining reward lasts a looooooong time
1620 2014-05-12 16:10:29 <hearn> sure
1621 2014-05-12 16:10:41 <wumpus> hearn: well, artificial shortages should always mirror real shortages
1622 2014-05-12 16:10:52 <hearn> i expect we will all be happily retired by the time this is really a problem :)
1623 2014-05-12 16:10:59 ryanxcharles has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1624 2014-05-12 16:11:27 <posita> At any rate, like I said, my $1.05 is in the make-fees-variable-and-wait-to-see-where-the-market-clears hat…. :-) (Not that I get a vote.)
1625 2014-05-12 16:12:16 stuntkite has joined
1626 2014-05-12 16:12:20 <posita> wumpus: Then they're not artificial, are they? ;-) Just be careful about preferring imperfect proxies when better information is available.
1627 2014-05-12 16:12:21 <wumpus> if there are no real shortages anymore, we don't need a monetary system anymore, whoohoo
1628 2014-05-12 16:12:35 Vitalik has joined
1629 2014-05-12 16:12:56 <posita> Tell me where to move to where there are no scarce resources, and I'll go.
1630 2014-05-12 16:13:11 <posita> ^ … where resources aren't scarce, and …
1631 2014-05-12 16:13:49 <wumpus> posita: space!
1632 2014-05-12 16:14:18 <posita> Right. Because getting there and staying alive there is free. ;-)
1633 2014-05-12 16:15:08 <posita> hearn: I didn't mean to gloss over the point about special pools. I wasn't suggesting that they were necessary. I'm just suggesting that different miners might compete differently, possibly in ways that no one yet imagines.
1634 2014-05-12 16:16:00 <posita> (Whether or not they're strictly necessary wasn't my point. Just that variable fees afford experimentation.)
1635 2014-05-12 16:16:06 Vitalik_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1636 2014-05-12 16:16:23 <hearn> sure
1637 2014-05-12 16:16:25 richcollins has joined
1638 2014-05-12 16:18:47 Stormeyes has joined
1639 2014-05-12 16:19:19 ryanxcharles has joined
1640 2014-05-12 16:22:59 ryanxcha_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1641 2014-05-12 16:24:32 maraoz has joined
1642 2014-05-12 16:26:13 ConvivialMatt has joined
1643 2014-05-12 16:27:59 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
1644 2014-05-12 16:29:56 LarsLarsen has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1645 2014-05-12 16:30:52 llllllllll has quit ()
1646 2014-05-12 16:32:35 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1647 2014-05-12 16:33:30 <melvster> woo hoo ... trezor arrived! :)
1648 2014-05-12 16:34:37 <hearn> melvster: nice!
1649 2014-05-12 16:34:38 <melvster> BIP32 integration too ... very nice
1650 2014-05-12 16:34:42 <hearn> melvster: the metallics are awesome
1651 2014-05-12 16:34:43 LarsLarsen has joined
1652 2014-05-12 16:34:54 <hearn> it sucks that there’s such a huge delay on the rest though :(
1653 2014-05-12 16:34:59 phoenix54 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1654 2014-05-12 16:35:13 <melvster> hearn: yeah!  there's gonna be a party here in prague to celebrate ... hope you can make it :)
1655 2014-05-12 16:35:29 <hearn> to celebrate what? when?
1656 2014-05-12 16:36:02 abossard__ has quit (Quit: abossard__)
1657 2014-05-12 16:36:09 phoenix52 has joined
1658 2014-05-12 16:37:32 <melvster> hearn: there was an announce on the trezor site, no fixed date yet, but in the summer, will be in prague, at satoshi labs I think
1659 2014-05-12 16:37:32 <melvster> let me get the link
1660 2014-05-12 16:37:41 <hearn> cool
1661 2014-05-12 16:39:34 <hearn> ah yes
1662 2014-05-12 16:39:36 <hearn> in their last blog udpate
1663 2014-05-12 16:40:22 ganjafarmer has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1664 2014-05-12 16:40:47 <melvster> As a recognition for the help and patience of our supporters we decided to organize a TREZOR Summer Party in Prague, the capital of Czech Republic. Prague is a beautiful city especially in summer, so don’t miss this opportunity. We will be sending out invitations with further details to all our early supporters in order to confirm your participation. We’ll be looking to welcome you all!
1665 2014-05-12 16:40:57 banghouse has quit (Quit: g2g bbiab)
1666 2014-05-12 16:41:12 brson has joined
1667 2014-05-12 16:41:20 A has joined
1668 2014-05-12 16:41:51 <melvster> ive actually got 2 metallics and 14 plastics on order
1669 2014-05-12 16:41:58 LjL-Tablet2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1670 2014-05-12 16:42:03 <melvster> kind of got trigger happy with the ordering :)  no idea what ill do with them all
1671 2014-05-12 16:42:31 <melvster> actually just wanted to support the project, but didnt see marek in ages so decided easiest way was to pre order a bunch
1672 2014-05-12 16:42:33 sidneyz has joined
1673 2014-05-12 16:42:35 ericmuys_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1674 2014-05-12 16:43:05 <melvster> it's very slick
1675 2014-05-12 16:44:19 orperelman has joined
1676 2014-05-12 16:44:49 MiningBuddy- has joined
1677 2014-05-12 16:46:46 s7r has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1678 2014-05-12 16:46:57 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1679 2014-05-12 16:46:59 gst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1680 2014-05-12 16:47:16 s7r has joined
1681 2014-05-12 16:47:19 athan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1682 2014-05-12 16:47:20 gst has joined
1683 2014-05-12 16:47:34 ahmed_college is now known as ahmed_
1684 2014-05-12 16:47:52 ryanxcharles has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1685 2014-05-12 16:48:08 SwampTony has joined
1686 2014-05-12 16:48:13 random_cat has joined
1687 2014-05-12 16:48:29 SpicyShibe has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1688 2014-05-12 16:48:33 MiningBuddy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1689 2014-05-12 16:49:21 bitwyre has joined
1690 2014-05-12 16:50:45 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1691 2014-05-12 16:52:32 LjL-Tablet2 has joined
1692 2014-05-12 16:52:39 Gyps has joined
1693 2014-05-12 16:53:03 KawalGrover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1694 2014-05-12 16:55:51 ThomasV has joined
1695 2014-05-12 17:01:35 kermit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1696 2014-05-12 17:02:18 maaku has joined
1697 2014-05-12 17:02:42 maaku is now known as Guest60548
1698 2014-05-12 17:03:27 ryanxcharles has joined
1699 2014-05-12 17:03:46 ryanxcharles has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1700 2014-05-12 17:04:18 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1701 2014-05-12 17:04:21 ryanxcharles has joined
1702 2014-05-12 17:05:22 Chief_Panda has joined
1703 2014-05-12 17:05:22 Chief_Panda has quit (Changing host)
1704 2014-05-12 17:05:22 Chief_Panda has joined
1705 2014-05-12 17:05:56 KawalGrover has joined
1706 2014-05-12 17:06:02 maraoz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1707 2014-05-12 17:07:51 zcopley has joined
1708 2014-05-12 17:08:05 Coincidental has joined
1709 2014-05-12 17:11:12 bbrian has joined
1710 2014-05-12 17:12:56 ThomasV has joined
1711 2014-05-12 17:13:04 <melvster> hearn: do you know what trezor uses as a change address?  (happy to take this discussion to another channel, if there is one -- but is just a one-off)
1712 2014-05-12 17:13:15 <hearn> i do not
1713 2014-05-12 17:14:58 softwaremechanic has joined
1714 2014-05-12 17:15:05 tjopper1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1715 2014-05-12 17:16:55 Guest60548 has left ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.")
1716 2014-05-12 17:17:23 maaku has joined
1717 2014-05-12 17:17:58 spinza has joined
1718 2014-05-12 17:20:14 dfletcher has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1719 2014-05-12 17:20:15 benten has joined
1720 2014-05-12 17:21:43 dfletcher has joined
1721 2014-05-12 17:21:48 lalopalo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1722 2014-05-12 17:22:27 phoenix52 has quit (Quit: phoenix52)
1723 2014-05-12 17:22:30 maraoz has joined
1724 2014-05-12 17:23:53 maaku has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1725 2014-05-12 17:24:54 hearn has quit (Quit: hearn)
1726 2014-05-12 17:25:11 kermit has joined
1727 2014-05-12 17:25:20 DaQatz has joined
1728 2014-05-12 17:25:51 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1729 2014-05-12 17:26:55 ahbritto__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1730 2014-05-12 17:27:20 DaQatz is now known as SpicyShibe
1731 2014-05-12 17:27:42 ahbritto__ has joined
1732 2014-05-12 17:28:45 KawalGrover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1733 2014-05-12 17:33:03 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1734 2014-05-12 17:33:25 Guest3400 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1735 2014-05-12 17:33:25 ahbritto__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1736 2014-05-12 17:33:34 ryanxcharles has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1737 2014-05-12 17:34:01 ryanxcharles has joined
1738 2014-05-12 17:34:36 Guest3400 has joined
1739 2014-05-12 17:34:38 ahbritto has joined
1740 2014-05-12 17:35:09 gdm85 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1741 2014-05-12 17:38:45 llllllllll has joined
1742 2014-05-12 17:39:27 Guest3400 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1743 2014-05-12 17:39:27 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1744 2014-05-12 17:39:36 phoenix54 has joined
1745 2014-05-12 17:40:04 Guest3400 has joined
1746 2014-05-12 17:40:14 ahbritto has joined
1747 2014-05-12 17:40:23 phoenix54 has quit (Client Quit)
1748 2014-05-12 17:40:45 phoenix53 has joined
1749 2014-05-12 17:42:26 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1750 2014-05-12 17:43:09 ahbritto has joined
1751 2014-05-12 17:43:28 <grau> melvster: m/44'/0'/account'/1/n is the nth change address on mainnet bitcoin m is master out of BIP39 seed.
1752 2014-05-12 17:43:51 hoffmabc has joined
1753 2014-05-12 17:45:12 Eiii has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1754 2014-05-12 17:45:21 _rp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1755 2014-05-12 17:46:57 gsdgdfs has joined
1756 2014-05-12 17:46:59 orperelman has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1757 2014-05-12 17:47:07 gdm85 has joined
1758 2014-05-12 17:47:36 orperelman has joined
1759 2014-05-12 17:48:04 MaxSan has joined
1760 2014-05-12 17:52:28 lalopalo has joined
1761 2014-05-12 17:53:33 Gyps has quit (Quit: Gyps)
1762 2014-05-12 17:54:25 davout has joined
1763 2014-05-12 17:55:09 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1764 2014-05-12 17:55:15 gdm85 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1765 2014-05-12 17:55:58 dims has joined
1766 2014-05-12 17:56:03 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1767 2014-05-12 17:57:50 <melvster> grau: ah thanks, that
1768 2014-05-12 17:57:55 <melvster> that
1769 2014-05-12 17:57:58 <melvster> that's smart
1770 2014-05-12 17:58:03 <melvster> oops sorry
1771 2014-05-12 17:59:22 sidneyz has quit (Quit: sidneyz)
1772 2014-05-12 18:00:52 agricocb has joined
1773 2014-05-12 18:00:59 agricocb has quit (Client Quit)
1774 2014-05-12 18:01:04 mrkent2 has joined
1775 2014-05-12 18:01:22 AndyOfiesh has joined
1776 2014-05-12 18:01:42 hoffmabc has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
1777 2014-05-12 18:02:16 agricocb has joined
1778 2014-05-12 18:07:45 venzen has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1779 2014-05-12 18:08:01 maraoz has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1780 2014-05-12 18:08:38 robonerd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1781 2014-05-12 18:10:21 robonerd has joined
1782 2014-05-12 18:14:41 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1783 2014-05-12 18:14:58 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1784 2014-05-12 18:15:10 dabura667 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1785 2014-05-12 18:15:33 hexagon53 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1786 2014-05-12 18:16:07 mrkent2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1787 2014-05-12 18:16:10 random_cat has joined
1788 2014-05-12 18:16:35 orperelman has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1789 2014-05-12 18:16:56 adam3us has joined
1790 2014-05-12 18:17:00 orperelman has joined
1791 2014-05-12 18:18:31 lalopalo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1792 2014-05-12 18:18:34 hexagon53 has joined
1793 2014-05-12 18:21:40 hexagon54 has joined
1794 2014-05-12 18:21:47 hexagon53 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1795 2014-05-12 18:22:58 Guest3400 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1796 2014-05-12 18:22:58 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1797 2014-05-12 18:23:34 Guest3400 has joined
1798 2014-05-12 18:23:36 zcopley has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1799 2014-05-12 18:23:49 ConvivialMatt has quit (Quit: ConvivialMatt)
1800 2014-05-12 18:23:50 ahbritto has joined
1801 2014-05-12 18:23:54 maraoz has joined
1802 2014-05-12 18:24:28 sanders_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1803 2014-05-12 18:25:06 lalopalo has joined
1804 2014-05-12 18:25:42 mappum has joined
1805 2014-05-12 18:26:02 ConvivialMatt has joined
1806 2014-05-12 18:26:36 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1807 2014-05-12 18:26:52 phantomspark has joined
1808 2014-05-12 18:27:42 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1809 2014-05-12 18:28:09 hexagon54 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1810 2014-05-12 18:29:32 mrkent2 has joined
1811 2014-05-12 18:29:43 hexagon53 has joined
1812 2014-05-12 18:29:47 Zarutian has joined
1813 2014-05-12 18:29:47 rdymac has joined
1814 2014-05-12 18:31:31 <chichov> are locally generated transactions gathered and sent out periodically (until included in a new block) as described in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Satoshi_Client_Transaction_Exchange OR is it sent out instantly after being generated and then periodically if necessary?
1815 2014-05-12 18:32:18 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1816 2014-05-12 18:33:08 viajero has joined
1817 2014-05-12 18:33:27 KawalGrover has joined
1818 2014-05-12 18:37:02 dims has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1819 2014-05-12 18:37:47 ahmed_ is now known as ahmed_ontheshitt
1820 2014-05-12 18:37:58 ahmed_ontheshitt is now known as ahmed_
1821 2014-05-12 18:38:01 cysm has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1822 2014-05-12 18:38:01 Shiftos has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1823 2014-05-12 18:38:18 digitalmagus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1824 2014-05-12 18:38:33 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1825 2014-05-12 18:39:25 Lunixia has joined
1826 2014-05-12 18:40:22 digitalmagus has joined
1827 2014-05-12 18:42:07 phantomspark has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1828 2014-05-12 18:42:35 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1829 2014-05-12 18:42:41 LjL-Tablet2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1830 2014-05-12 18:42:42 cysm has joined
1831 2014-05-12 18:43:23 ahbritto has joined
1832 2014-05-12 18:46:00 Lunixia has quit ()
1833 2014-05-12 18:46:28 Lunixia has joined
1834 2014-05-12 18:46:34 SwampTony has quit ()
1835 2014-05-12 18:47:33 ConvivialMatt has quit (Quit: ConvivialMatt)
1836 2014-05-12 18:47:41 sanders has joined
1837 2014-05-12 18:49:14 dhill has quit (Quit: leaving)
1838 2014-05-12 18:49:28 dhill has joined
1839 2014-05-12 18:49:39 rk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1840 2014-05-12 18:51:29 mrkent2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1841 2014-05-12 18:53:32 Shiftos has joined
1842 2014-05-12 18:53:32 Shiftos is now known as Guest25499
1843 2014-05-12 18:53:52 Pan0ram1x has quit (Quit: quit)
1844 2014-05-12 18:54:08 Pan0ram1x has joined
1845 2014-05-12 18:54:08 Pan0ram1x has quit (Changing host)
1846 2014-05-12 18:54:08 Pan0ram1x has joined
1847 2014-05-12 18:54:43 BCBot` has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1848 2014-05-12 18:55:03 ConvivialMatt has joined
1849 2014-05-12 18:55:03 ConvivialMatt has quit (Client Quit)
1850 2014-05-12 18:55:11 BCBot has joined
1851 2014-05-12 18:55:58 KawalGrover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1852 2014-05-12 18:56:44 nessence has joined
1853 2014-05-12 18:58:53 LjL-Tablet has joined
1854 2014-05-12 18:59:03 bitwyre_ has joined
1855 2014-05-12 19:00:45 bitwyre has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1856 2014-05-12 19:04:20 mrkent2 has joined
1857 2014-05-12 19:06:26 bitwyre_ has quit ()
1858 2014-05-12 19:06:26 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1859 2014-05-12 19:06:30 BenderCoin has joined
1860 2014-05-12 19:06:30 MiningBuddy has joined
1861 2014-05-12 19:06:30 MiningBuddy has quit (Changing host)
1862 2014-05-12 19:06:30 MiningBuddy has joined
1863 2014-05-12 19:07:26 ahbritto has joined
1864 2014-05-12 19:07:45 sidneyz has joined
1865 2014-05-12 19:08:36 Burrito has joined
1866 2014-05-12 19:08:55 locksley has joined
1867 2014-05-12 19:09:47 MiningBuddy- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1868 2014-05-12 19:10:01 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1869 2014-05-12 19:10:11 orperelman has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1870 2014-05-12 19:10:48 ahbritto has joined
1871 2014-05-12 19:11:23 Guest3400 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1872 2014-05-12 19:12:27 sidneyz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1873 2014-05-12 19:12:32 Guest3400 has joined
1874 2014-05-12 19:13:53 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1875 2014-05-12 19:15:20 zcopley has joined
1876 2014-05-12 19:15:25 ericmuyser has joined
1877 2014-05-12 19:15:26 ericmuyser has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
1878 2014-05-12 19:15:47 ericmuyser has joined
1879 2014-05-12 19:16:02 zcopley has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1880 2014-05-12 19:18:12 zcopley has joined
1881 2014-05-12 19:19:06 BenderCoin has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1882 2014-05-12 19:19:16 zcopley has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1883 2014-05-12 19:19:23 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1884 2014-05-12 19:19:40 maaku has joined
1885 2014-05-12 19:19:45 phoenix53 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1886 2014-05-12 19:19:48 Application has joined
1887 2014-05-12 19:20:01 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1888 2014-05-12 19:20:04 maaku is now known as Guest8195
1889 2014-05-12 19:20:20 Guest8195 has left ()
1890 2014-05-12 19:20:23 olalonde has joined
1891 2014-05-12 19:20:42 maaku has joined
1892 2014-05-12 19:20:43 sidneyz has joined
1893 2014-05-12 19:20:48 ahbritto has joined
1894 2014-05-12 19:21:33 zcopley has joined
1895 2014-05-12 19:23:15 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1896 2014-05-12 19:23:58 ahbritto has joined
1897 2014-05-12 19:25:24 orperelman has joined
1898 2014-05-12 19:26:43 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1899 2014-05-12 19:27:27 ahbritto has joined
1900 2014-05-12 19:27:33 phedny has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1901 2014-05-12 19:28:06 grau has joined
1902 2014-05-12 19:28:36 mrkent2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1903 2014-05-12 19:32:44 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1904 2014-05-12 19:32:56 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1905 2014-05-12 19:33:02 kermit has joined
1906 2014-05-12 19:33:32 ahbritto has joined
1907 2014-05-12 19:34:36 KawalGrover has joined
1908 2014-05-12 19:34:36 spinza has quit (Disconnected by services)
1909 2014-05-12 19:34:38 spinza_ has joined
1910 2014-05-12 19:35:54 benten has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1911 2014-05-12 19:36:48 pierreatwork has joined
1912 2014-05-12 19:37:12 phedny has joined
1913 2014-05-12 19:39:03 MaxSan has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1914 2014-05-12 19:39:15 uiop has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1915 2014-05-12 19:41:23 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1916 2014-05-12 19:41:45 KawalGrover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1917 2014-05-12 19:41:53 uiop has joined
1918 2014-05-12 19:42:00 locksley has quit (Quit: locksley)
1919 2014-05-12 19:42:08 sidneyz has quit (Quit: sidneyz)
1920 2014-05-12 19:42:47 dims has joined
1921 2014-05-12 19:43:09 ToaDy_ has joined
1922 2014-05-12 19:43:12 Hans-Martin has joined
1923 2014-05-12 19:43:42 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1924 2014-05-12 19:44:25 ahbritto has joined
1925 2014-05-12 19:44:39 Dizzle has joined
1926 2014-05-12 19:44:43 msvb-lab has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1927 2014-05-12 19:45:18 mrkent2 has joined
1928 2014-05-12 19:45:24 ConvivialMatt has joined
1929 2014-05-12 19:46:13 lclc has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1930 2014-05-12 19:48:31 daybyter has joined
1931 2014-05-12 19:50:59 Eagle[TM] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1932 2014-05-12 19:54:02 msvb-lab has joined
1933 2014-05-12 19:55:35 mrkent2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1934 2014-05-12 19:56:10 bbrian has joined
1935 2014-05-12 19:56:48 Lunixia has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1936 2014-05-12 19:59:45 maaku has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1937 2014-05-12 20:04:00 chichov has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1938 2014-05-12 20:04:20 cadaver has joined
1939 2014-05-12 20:07:43 zcopley has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1940 2014-05-12 20:09:06 Guest3400 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1941 2014-05-12 20:09:18 brson has joined
1942 2014-05-12 20:09:28 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1943 2014-05-12 20:10:06 ahbritto_ has joined
1944 2014-05-12 20:10:12 ahbritto has joined
1945 2014-05-12 20:11:09 maaku has joined
1946 2014-05-12 20:11:33 maaku is now known as Guest26582
1947 2014-05-12 20:11:40 mrkent2 has joined
1948 2014-05-12 20:11:47 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1949 2014-05-12 20:11:57 ahbritto_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1950 2014-05-12 20:11:57 MaxSan has joined
1951 2014-05-12 20:12:52 ahbritto has joined
1952 2014-05-12 20:12:53 ToaDy_ has quit ()
1953 2014-05-12 20:13:42 Guest52656 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1954 2014-05-12 20:15:03 Akima has joined
1955 2014-05-12 20:15:27 ahbritto_ has joined
1956 2014-05-12 20:16:31 lalopalo_ has joined
1957 2014-05-12 20:17:18 lalopalo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1958 2014-05-12 20:19:13 Hans-Martin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1959 2014-05-12 20:20:39 ConvivialMatt has quit (Quit: ConvivialMatt)
1960 2014-05-12 20:22:18 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1961 2014-05-12 20:23:23 shesek has joined
1962 2014-05-12 20:23:34 survic has joined
1963 2014-05-12 20:23:58 ahbritto has joined
1964 2014-05-12 20:24:19 Coincidental has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1965 2014-05-12 20:24:31 ahbritto_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1966 2014-05-12 20:25:20 paveljanik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1967 2014-05-12 20:25:31 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1968 2014-05-12 20:25:58 ericmuyser has joined
1969 2014-05-12 20:26:05 santoscork has joined
1970 2014-05-12 20:26:06 ericmuyser has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1971 2014-05-12 20:26:08 Coincidental has joined
1972 2014-05-12 20:26:14 ahbritto_ has joined
1973 2014-05-12 20:26:25 ericmuyser has joined
1974 2014-05-12 20:27:13 dims has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1975 2014-05-12 20:27:28 CodeShark has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1976 2014-05-12 20:27:55 tombtc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1977 2014-05-12 20:30:21 ConvivialMatt has joined
1978 2014-05-12 20:30:33 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1979 2014-05-12 20:30:33 mrkent2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1980 2014-05-12 20:31:12 grau has joined
1981 2014-05-12 20:32:05 pooler has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1982 2014-05-12 20:32:09 lalopalo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1983 2014-05-12 20:32:23 xabbix has joined
1984 2014-05-12 20:32:49 rnicoll has joined
1985 2014-05-12 20:33:27 rnicoll has left ()
1986 2014-05-12 20:34:27 adam3us has joined
1987 2014-05-12 20:37:25 cagedwisdom has joined
1988 2014-05-12 20:38:03 lachesis has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1989 2014-05-12 20:39:01 Liquid has joined
1990 2014-05-12 20:39:14 non2 has joined
1991 2014-05-12 20:39:25 Liquid is now known as Guest53685
1992 2014-05-12 20:39:39 TheSeven has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1993 2014-05-12 20:40:36 tombtc has joined
1994 2014-05-12 20:40:44 TheSeven has joined
1995 2014-05-12 20:42:21 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1996 2014-05-12 20:42:43 mrkent2 has joined
1997 2014-05-12 20:43:09 ahbritto has joined
1998 2014-05-12 20:45:16 d34th has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1999 2014-05-12 20:45:18 orperelman has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2000 2014-05-12 20:47:23 jordandotdev has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2001 2014-05-12 20:47:33 lachesis has joined
2002 2014-05-12 20:49:06 Chief_Panda has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2003 2014-05-12 20:49:46 pooler has joined
2004 2014-05-12 20:50:39 d34th has joined
2005 2014-05-12 20:50:50 tyrick has joined
2006 2014-05-12 20:50:50 ConvivialMatt has quit (Quit: ConvivialMatt)
2007 2014-05-12 20:51:22 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2008 2014-05-12 20:51:33 ahbritto_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2009 2014-05-12 20:51:53 LjL-Tablet is now known as LjL-Laplet
2010 2014-05-12 20:52:09 ahbritto has joined
2011 2014-05-12 20:52:13 ahbritto_ has joined
2012 2014-05-12 20:52:34 viajero has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2013 2014-05-12 20:52:59 <tyrick> When a node receives a new block from the network, this isn't a message, correct?
2014 2014-05-12 20:53:00 viajero has joined
2015 2014-05-12 20:54:35 Gyps has joined
2016 2014-05-12 20:54:38 ConvivialMatt has joined
2017 2014-05-12 20:55:40 A has quit (an!~Alan@173.218.165.211|Remote host closed the connection)
2018 2014-05-12 20:56:39 Wrenuld has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2019 2014-05-12 20:56:44 Guest26582 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2020 2014-05-12 20:56:44 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021 2014-05-12 20:57:16 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2022 2014-05-12 20:57:55 A has joined
2023 2014-05-12 20:59:09 rnicoll has joined
2024 2014-05-12 21:01:17 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
2025 2014-05-12 21:01:28 msvb-lab has quit (Quit: msvb-lab)
2026 2014-05-12 21:02:08 hexagon54 has joined
2027 2014-05-12 21:02:10 olalonde has joined
2028 2014-05-12 21:04:43 Coincidental has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2029 2014-05-12 21:05:15 Chief_Panda has joined
2030 2014-05-12 21:05:15 Chief_Panda has quit (Changing host)
2031 2014-05-12 21:05:15 Chief_Panda has joined
2032 2014-05-12 21:05:21 hexagon53 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2033 2014-05-12 21:06:16 ThomasV has joined
2034 2014-05-12 21:07:28 ryanxcha_ has joined
2035 2014-05-12 21:07:48 Coincidental has joined
2036 2014-05-12 21:07:51 KawalGrover has joined
2037 2014-05-12 21:08:58 ConvivialMatt has quit (Quit: ConvivialMatt)
2038 2014-05-12 21:10:11 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2039 2014-05-12 21:10:24 ryanxcharles has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2040 2014-05-12 21:10:44 Akima has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3)
2041 2014-05-12 21:12:20 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
2042 2014-05-12 21:13:09 olalonde has joined
2043 2014-05-12 21:13:37 fdi11inger has joined
2044 2014-05-12 21:14:18 bbrian has joined
2045 2014-05-12 21:15:35 KawalGrover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2046 2014-05-12 21:15:38 ryanxcha_ is now known as ryanxcharles
2047 2014-05-12 21:15:58 Dizzle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2048 2014-05-12 21:16:17 adam3us has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2049 2014-05-12 21:16:51 davout has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2050 2014-05-12 21:17:26 davout has joined
2051 2014-05-12 21:17:51 maaku has joined
2052 2014-05-12 21:18:13 maaku is now known as Guest20317
2053 2014-05-12 21:19:18 orperelman has joined
2054 2014-05-12 21:21:09 Wrenuld has joined
2055 2014-05-12 21:22:16 Guest20317 has left ()
2056 2014-05-12 21:23:10 Wrenuld has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2057 2014-05-12 21:23:25 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
2058 2014-05-12 21:23:55 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2059 2014-05-12 21:24:26 olalonde has joined
2060 2014-05-12 21:24:42 ahbritto has joined
2061 2014-05-12 21:24:46 Coincidental has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2062 2014-05-12 21:24:48 b4epoche has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
2063 2014-05-12 21:26:24 ConvivialMatt has joined
2064 2014-05-12 21:26:51 Coincidental has joined
2065 2014-05-12 21:27:26 Wrenuld has joined
2066 2014-05-12 21:28:22 Pullphinger has quit ()
2067 2014-05-12 21:29:23 tombtc has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2068 2014-05-12 21:30:34 joedoe- has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2069 2014-05-12 21:34:22 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
2070 2014-05-12 21:35:01 joedoe- has joined
2071 2014-05-12 21:35:37 olalonde has joined
2072 2014-05-12 21:38:05 sidneyz has joined
2073 2014-05-12 21:38:25 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2074 2014-05-12 21:38:25 locksley has joined
2075 2014-05-12 21:39:27 eristisk has quit (Quit: killall -9 irc)
2076 2014-05-12 21:40:42 Emcy_ has joined
2077 2014-05-12 21:40:42 Emcy_ has quit (Changing host)
2078 2014-05-12 21:40:42 Emcy_ has joined
2079 2014-05-12 21:41:08 Gyps has quit (Quit: Gyps)
2080 2014-05-12 21:42:47 AnoAnon has joined
2081 2014-05-12 21:42:58 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2082 2014-05-12 21:43:17 tyrick has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
2083 2014-05-12 21:44:19 tombtc has joined
2084 2014-05-12 21:44:35 Emcy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2085 2014-05-12 21:44:55 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
2086 2014-05-12 21:45:19 Emcy has joined
2087 2014-05-12 21:45:19 Emcy has quit (Changing host)
2088 2014-05-12 21:45:19 Emcy has joined
2089 2014-05-12 21:45:22 Emcy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2090 2014-05-12 21:45:27 coeus has joined
2091 2014-05-12 21:46:33 <uiop> petertodd: i just undertood what the analogy to "fidelity bond" you (they) mean: the "burned coins" map to "the cost to purchase a fidelity bond". the fidelity bond requirement being viewed as a thing that brings barrier to entry >= const_of_fid_bond, which has the second-order effect of "keeping the riffraff out"
2092 2014-05-12 21:47:12 kermit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2093 2014-05-12 21:47:28 olalonde has joined
2094 2014-05-12 21:48:25 <uiop> strange (to me) way to view a fidelity bond, but i can at see the motivation for that name now
2095 2014-05-12 21:48:33 antonwalkerr has quit (Excess Flood)
2096 2014-05-12 21:48:34 kermit has joined
2097 2014-05-12 21:48:35 maaku has joined
2098 2014-05-12 21:49:45 orperelman has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2099 2014-05-12 21:50:23 nshlike has joined
2100 2014-05-12 21:50:42 orperelman has joined
2101 2014-05-12 21:51:11 freggles has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2102 2014-05-12 21:52:52 antonwalkerr has joined
2103 2014-05-12 21:54:54 raminnoodle has joined
2104 2014-05-12 21:55:27 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
2105 2014-05-12 21:56:24 olalonde has joined
2106 2014-05-12 21:57:10 Coincidental has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2107 2014-05-12 21:57:19 Dizzle has joined
2108 2014-05-12 21:57:57 cadaver has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2109 2014-05-12 21:59:44 Coincidental has joined
2110 2014-05-12 22:02:14 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2111 2014-05-12 22:02:53 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2112 2014-05-12 22:05:41 gidze has joined
2113 2014-05-12 22:06:24 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
2114 2014-05-12 22:06:49 christophe has quit (Quit: leaving)
2115 2014-05-12 22:07:24 olalonde has joined
2116 2014-05-12 22:08:31 Coincide_ has joined
2117 2014-05-12 22:08:36 agricocb has joined
2118 2014-05-12 22:09:38 Jamesz has joined
2119 2014-05-12 22:11:11 rnicoll has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2120 2014-05-12 22:11:25 maaku has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2121 2014-05-12 22:13:25 eristisk has joined
2122 2014-05-12 22:13:25 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2123 2014-05-12 22:14:00 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2124 2014-05-12 22:14:33 maaku has joined
2125 2014-05-12 22:14:57 maaku is now known as Guest51417
2126 2014-05-12 22:17:15 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
2127 2014-05-12 22:18:04 olalonde has joined
2128 2014-05-12 22:22:05 mr_burdell has joined
2129 2014-05-12 22:22:13 grau has joined
2130 2014-05-12 22:22:38 spinza has joined
2131 2014-05-12 22:22:41 Guest51417 has left ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.")
2132 2014-05-12 22:23:28 coingenuity has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2133 2014-05-12 22:23:46 spinza_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2134 2014-05-12 22:23:51 tombtc has quit (Quit: Wychodzi)
2135 2014-05-12 22:24:38 orperelman has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2136 2014-05-12 22:26:45 lalopalo has joined
2137 2014-05-12 22:26:48 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2138 2014-05-12 22:27:42 LjL-Laplet has quit (Changing host)
2139 2014-05-12 22:27:42 LjL-Laplet has joined
2140 2014-05-12 22:27:53 bbrian has joined
2141 2014-05-12 22:27:59 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
2142 2014-05-12 22:28:51 olalonde has joined
2143 2014-05-12 22:30:06 hanti is now known as HANTI
2144 2014-05-12 22:33:23 kdomanski has joined
2145 2014-05-12 22:36:28 _yoy_ has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2146 2014-05-12 22:37:41 _yoy_ has joined
2147 2014-05-12 22:38:07 Gerendon has joined
2148 2014-05-12 22:38:56 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
2149 2014-05-12 22:39:48 olalonde has joined
2150 2014-05-12 22:42:10 hoffmabc has joined
2151 2014-05-12 22:42:47 coingenuity has joined
2152 2014-05-12 22:43:13 go1111111 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2153 2014-05-12 22:45:18 Gyps has joined
2154 2014-05-12 22:46:22 nessence has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2155 2014-05-12 22:46:52 nessence has joined
2156 2014-05-12 22:49:35 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
2157 2014-05-12 22:50:37 olalonde has joined
2158 2014-05-12 22:50:53 fpx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2159 2014-05-12 22:50:57 mpmcsweeney has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2160 2014-05-12 22:51:15 nessence has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2161 2014-05-12 22:51:41 grau has joined
2162 2014-05-12 22:52:37 fpx has joined
2163 2014-05-12 22:52:46 spinza has quit (Disconnected by services)
2164 2014-05-12 22:52:46 spinza_ has joined
2165 2014-05-12 22:53:13 zcopley has joined
2166 2014-05-12 22:53:59 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2167 2014-05-12 22:54:29 maraoz has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2168 2014-05-12 22:54:32 ahbritto has joined
2169 2014-05-12 22:54:32 ahbritto has quit (Changing host)
2170 2014-05-12 22:54:32 ahbritto has joined
2171 2014-05-12 22:54:34 locksley has quit (Quit: locksley)
2172 2014-05-12 22:55:16 llllllllll has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2173 2014-05-12 22:56:40 ahbritto_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2174 2014-05-12 22:56:41 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2175 2014-05-12 22:57:03 bbrian has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2)
2176 2014-05-12 22:57:16 bbrian has joined
2177 2014-05-12 22:57:21 ahbritto_ has joined
2178 2014-05-12 22:57:29 ahbritto has joined
2179 2014-05-12 22:58:03 uiop has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2180 2014-05-12 22:58:53 go1111111 has joined
2181 2014-05-12 22:59:18 uiop has joined
2182 2014-05-12 22:59:29 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2183 2014-05-12 23:00:12 ahbritto has joined
2184 2014-05-12 23:00:54 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
2185 2014-05-12 23:01:05 stuntkite has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2186 2014-05-12 23:01:23 stuntkite has joined
2187 2014-05-12 23:01:42 olalonde has joined
2188 2014-05-12 23:06:41 nshlike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2189 2014-05-12 23:07:14 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
2190 2014-05-12 23:09:22 ahbritto_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2191 2014-05-12 23:09:42 Einewton has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2192 2014-05-12 23:10:04 ahbritto_ has joined
2193 2014-05-12 23:10:57 zcopley has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2194 2014-05-12 23:11:32 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
2195 2014-05-12 23:11:53 fpx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2196 2014-05-12 23:13:39 olalonde has joined
2197 2014-05-12 23:14:58 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2198 2014-05-12 23:18:16 sidneyz has quit (Quit: sidneyz)
2199 2014-05-12 23:18:35 kdomanski has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2200 2014-05-12 23:18:55 kdomanski has joined
2201 2014-05-12 23:19:15 sidneyz has joined
2202 2014-05-12 23:20:16 sidneyz has quit (Client Quit)
2203 2014-05-12 23:22:30 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
2204 2014-05-12 23:22:33 sidneyz has joined
2205 2014-05-12 23:23:19 olalonde has joined
2206 2014-05-12 23:23:26 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
2207 2014-05-12 23:23:41 spinza_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2208 2014-05-12 23:25:19 kdomanski_ has joined
2209 2014-05-12 23:25:39 kdomanski has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2210 2014-05-12 23:27:02 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2211 2014-05-12 23:27:45 ahbritto has joined
2212 2014-05-12 23:27:56 benten has joined
2213 2014-05-12 23:28:42 Krellan_ has joined
2214 2014-05-12 23:29:08 spinza has joined
2215 2014-05-12 23:31:58 nshlike has joined
2216 2014-05-12 23:32:53 ahbritto_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2217 2014-05-12 23:32:59 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
2218 2014-05-12 23:33:36 ahbritto_ has joined
2219 2014-05-12 23:33:48 olalonde has joined
2220 2014-05-12 23:35:11 posita has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2221 2014-05-12 23:35:23 Krellan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2222 2014-05-12 23:36:51 nshlike has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2223 2014-05-12 23:37:25 nshlike has joined
2224 2014-05-12 23:38:12 Jacques_ has joined
2225 2014-05-12 23:39:01 ryanxcharles has quit ()
2226 2014-05-12 23:39:31 <Jacques_> anyone know some good resources for ECDSA, and the implications of point addition/multiplication in regards to security? Trying to get my head around some of the math in BIP32/Stealth addresses
2227 2014-05-12 23:42:04 lalopalo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2228 2014-05-12 23:42:24 sidneyz has quit (Quit: sidneyz)
2229 2014-05-12 23:43:06 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2230 2014-05-12 23:43:33 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
2231 2014-05-12 23:43:38 Krellan_ has joined
2232 2014-05-12 23:43:50 ahbritto has joined
2233 2014-05-12 23:44:11 hoffmabc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2234 2014-05-12 23:44:21 olalonde has joined
2235 2014-05-12 23:46:12 dokk has joined
2236 2014-05-12 23:46:35 Krellan_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2237 2014-05-12 23:46:58 beachandbytes has joined
2238 2014-05-12 23:47:03 beachandbytes has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2239 2014-05-12 23:47:40 ConvivialMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2240 2014-05-12 23:48:26 hoffmabc has joined
2241 2014-05-12 23:51:37 hoffmabc_ has joined
2242 2014-05-12 23:51:45 hoffmabc_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2243 2014-05-12 23:52:03 hoffmabc_ has joined
2244 2014-05-12 23:52:36 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2245 2014-05-12 23:52:40 ConvivialMatt has joined
2246 2014-05-12 23:52:55 hoffmabc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2247 2014-05-12 23:52:55 hoffmabc_ is now known as hoffmabc
2248 2014-05-12 23:54:29 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
2249 2014-05-12 23:54:58 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2250 2014-05-12 23:55:21 olalonde has joined
2251 2014-05-12 23:56:03 fdi11inger has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2252 2014-05-12 23:59:26 posita has joined