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  97 2014-05-18 01:24:28 <Guest23221> Hello. I'm going to pass a multisig spend tx to the participants. After each participant signs, he will pass the tx back to me. What can I do to prevent the first participant, who has received the unsigned tx, from altering the outputs?
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 113 2014-05-18 01:37:54 <aegis> ;;ident biggestnaf
 114 2014-05-18 01:37:54 <gribble> Nick 'biggestnaf', with hostmask 'biggestnaf!62e8ce3d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.232.206.61', is identified as user 'biggestnaf', with GPG key id None, key fingerprint None, and bitcoin address 1HCZsTjU7z3sNPjKnCi51vzi9ffM33FkiZ
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 196 2014-05-18 03:02:32 <mikey85> message me if you want to join my channel. IT is for Christians, new Christians, and people interested In learning about Jesus
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 224 2014-05-18 03:28:24 <finway> Hello, can ECDSA verification be accelerated by specific hardware ?  Can we make a professional FULL NODE like CISCO ROUTER ?
 225 2014-05-18 03:29:05 <gmaxwell> finway: certantly but its almost totally uninteresting.
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 228 2014-05-18 03:30:04 <finway> gmaxwell, if block size is lifted to 1GB, it maybe.
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 231 2014-05-18 03:30:25 <gmaxwell> With Sipa's code the E3-1230 (3.2GHz i7) here does over 40k verifies a second. Nodes are bandwidth bottlenecked before signature throughput normally.
 232 2014-05-18 03:31:12 ajweiss has joined
 233 2014-05-18 03:31:49 <gmaxwell> (and if you can afford the multigigabit connectivity blocks that large would require, then having the two E3-1230 cpus required to keep up with blocks of that size isn't much of a barrier)
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 236 2014-05-18 03:33:13 <finway> gmaxwell, ok, i didn't know that.  are you still pro block size limit ?
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 238 2014-05-18 03:34:33 <gmaxwell> finway: without a limit we still have no argument as to what would fund security in the future once subsidy is gone, so seeing as how I'm not crazy and that I think a bitcoin that has lost its decenteralization due to throughputs so high custom hardware is required... uh. yes.
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 241 2014-05-18 03:37:44 <finway> What i'm worried about is off-chain txes would create Fractional Reserved Banks.
 242 2014-05-18 03:37:55 random_user has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 243 2014-05-18 03:38:05 <finway> like Coinbase, Circle, BitReserved.org
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 246 2014-05-18 03:39:57 <Luke-Jr> finway: good thing we have proof-of-reserves?
 247 2014-05-18 03:40:20 <finway> Bitcoin will become too HEAVY liike GOLD, people will switch to use LIGHT PAPER like Coinbase bitcoins, Circle bitcoins,etc.
 248 2014-05-18 03:40:29 <gmaxwell> finway: They can do that regardless of anything going on inside bitcoin, some things like instant confirmations need external system help. Risking the decenteralization in bitcoin itself, as well as the argument for its scurity in the long term, isn't a good answer to some centeralized services doing insecure things that can be avoided.
 249 2014-05-18 03:40:43 ajweiss has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 250 2014-05-18 03:40:57 <Luke-Jr> finway: so the solution is to turn gold into light paper?
 251 2014-05-18 03:41:39 ajweiss has joined
 252 2014-05-18 03:41:57 <gmaxwell> In any case, it's not necessary to make that kind of compromise. It's possible to build scalable transaction without totally cramming everything under the sun into one huge blockchain no one can verify.
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 255 2014-05-18 03:44:56 <finway> gmaxwell, luke-jr,  uhh, i'lll think more.
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 257 2014-05-18 03:45:23 <finway> gmaxwell, luke-jr, but i guess 100MB is better ?
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 259 2014-05-18 03:45:39 <Luke-Jr> finway: 1 MB is fine for now
 260 2014-05-18 03:45:47 <Luke-Jr> finway: we aren't exactly hitting the limit
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 262 2014-05-18 03:46:03 <Luke-Jr> finway: and keep in mind we'll probably have daughter-chains in a while
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 264 2014-05-18 03:46:38 <gmaxwell> finway: certantly you can make an argument that some other limit is reasonable and good. I wouldn't disagree there. It's just the no-limit stuff I think is crazy. :)
 265 2014-05-18 03:46:40 <Luke-Jr> which seems like a pretty solid way to appease people who want blocks of any size
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 268 2014-05-18 03:47:04 <Luke-Jr> you could have a daughter-chain with 1 GB blocks if you liked ;)
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 270 2014-05-18 03:47:54 <finway> luke-jr, you mean side-chains? but it still requires verification and storage ?
 271 2014-05-18 03:47:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well do take care that that isn't a magic bullet, that extreme might be a bit inadvisable for the same reasons its problematic in bitcoin— but at least being able to hit multiple design tradeoffs at once is good.
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 273 2014-05-18 03:48:09 <Luke-Jr> finway: of course it does
 274 2014-05-18 03:48:43 <gmaxwell> finway: yes, by interested parties, which could be just the parties who are interested in that subsystem— so not everyone. "Have your cake, and eat it too" to some extent at least.
 275 2014-05-18 03:48:44 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: sure, but it'd work fine as a "big blocks blockchain" to the same extent making the main chain would
 276 2014-05-18 03:49:05 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: ::nods::
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 278 2014-05-18 03:49:25 <gmaxwell> I'm still disappointed that no altchain has tested these boundaries yet.
 279 2014-05-18 03:49:41 <finway> gmaxwell, luke-jr, doing some experiment on side-chains is a good idea.
 280 2014-05-18 03:49:44 <jcorgan> that would require something besides pump and dump
 281 2014-05-18 03:49:56 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: I'm sure they could spin it to pump :p[
 282 2014-05-18 03:50:07 <Luke-Jr> "more transactions per second than bitcoin!"
 283 2014-05-18 03:50:22 <Luke-Jr> otoh, yesterday I saw a scamcoin which just defines "confirmation blocks: 4"
 284 2014-05-18 03:50:23 <Luke-Jr> lol
 285 2014-05-18 03:50:28 <gmaxwell> hard to spin that as an advantage when most have basically no transaction load. :)
 286 2014-05-18 03:50:31 <Luke-Jr> "it's faster because we say it is"
 287 2014-05-18 03:50:39 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea lol they are almost all doing that now.
 288 2014-05-18 03:50:56 <gmaxwell> Giving some random number for "confirmation blocks" as if that were a system parameter.
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 291 2014-05-18 03:53:15 <jcorgan> i haven't followed zerocoin/zerocash lately, though i guess they are getting ready to release sometime soon.  I do wonder if the original zerocoin protocol would work better on a side chain than the new stuff they are doing on an independent chain.
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 300 2014-05-18 03:59:10 <Evilmax> hi all
 301 2014-05-18 03:59:27 <Evilmax> where i can read real time blocks chain?
 302 2014-05-18 03:59:47 <Evilmax> i mean all signle transactions
 303 2014-05-18 04:01:18 <Luke-Jr> p2p network
 304 2014-05-18 04:01:43 <Evilmax> what you mean?
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 307 2014-05-18 04:01:55 <Evilmax> i use qt
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 310 2014-05-18 04:02:42 <Luke-Jr> this is not an end-user channel
 311 2014-05-18 04:02:47 <Evilmax> because now it seem not working on bitcoin-watch
 312 2014-05-18 04:03:02 <Luke-Jr> yes, too much traffic. if you want to figure out a solution, I'd be glad to fix it :/
 313 2014-05-18 04:03:34 <Evilmax> but it will be restored on that chan?
 314 2014-05-18 04:03:36 <Evilmax> you knoe?
 315 2014-05-18 04:03:40 <Evilmax> know*
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 317 2014-05-18 04:05:31 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you can ask for an excemption from freenode.
 318 2014-05-18 04:05:37 <gmaxwell> otherwise— setup a seperate IRC server.
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 321 2014-05-18 04:07:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't think they have the ability to make exceptions :/
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 323 2014-05-18 04:08:26 <Evilmax> Luke-Jr: there is another place where i can find the same service that once used on bitcoin-watch? sorry my english
 324 2014-05-18 04:08:28 <gmaxwell> they did at one point in the past... perhaps not anymore.
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 402 2014-05-18 05:45:32 <nanotube> Luke-Jr: use several bots in a round robin. :)
 403 2014-05-18 05:45:44 <Luke-Jr> nanotube: yeah, but that takes time which I don't have :<
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 405 2014-05-18 05:46:02 <nanotube> ah
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 408 2014-05-18 05:47:45 <sipa> time is an illusion
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 982 2014-05-18 16:21:23 <Guest34124> Bitcoin-Qt. Since the RPC password and the wallet passphrase are in place, is there any reason not to supply CORS headers back to a browser?
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1020 2014-05-18 16:57:17 <devthink> Bitcoin-Qt: Since the RPC password and the wallet passphrase are in place, is there any reason Bitcoin-Qt can't return CORS headers to a browser?
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1023 2014-05-18 17:00:01 <michagogo> devthink: huh?
1024 2014-05-18 17:00:18 <michagogo> Could you elaborate, and explain hat you're trying to do?
1025 2014-05-18 17:00:47 <devthink> michagogo: to allow a page script to send RPC commands to the wallet
1026 2014-05-18 17:01:04 <michagogo> Ah, interesting.
1027 2014-05-18 17:01:24 <devthink> the browsers have a "same origin" policy that precludes access outside the domain
1028 2014-05-18 17:01:55 <devthink> the CORS headers from the destination site (the wallet) tells the browser it's ok
1029 2014-05-18 17:02:00 <michagogo> That's a good question. You could create a PR, if you want, and see where the discussion on that goes
1030 2014-05-18 17:02:25 <michagogo> Or if you can't, you can create an issue for discussion and maybe someone'll add it
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1033 2014-05-18 17:04:22 <sipa> i don't see how it could hurt, but RPC isn't exactly designed to be accessed from a browser either
1034 2014-05-18 17:05:45 <michagogo> Does anyone know if Jerry Felix is in here?
1035 2014-05-18 17:06:02 <michagogo> Related question: Does anyone know what the story is with the bananas in his photos?
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1038 2014-05-18 17:08:30 <devthink> sipa: typlically it would be a page script, downloaded from a Bitcoin site, that access the wallet at localhost:8332.
1039 2014-05-18 17:08:41 <devthink> accesses
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1041 2014-05-18 17:09:11 <Skirmant> i keep getting this: #error missing boost sleep implementation
1042 2014-05-18 17:09:26 <Skirmant> any ideas how to solve it?
1043 2014-05-18 17:10:08 <michagogo> Skirmant: what system are you on?
1044 2014-05-18 17:10:12 <michagogo> What are you trying to build?
1045 2014-05-18 17:10:15 <Skirmant> win7
1046 2014-05-18 17:10:20 <Skirmant> the bitcoin client
1047 2014-05-18 17:10:22 <michagogo> What version, which tag, which git commit?
1048 2014-05-18 17:10:42 <michagogo> What build system / compiler?
1049 2014-05-18 17:10:43 <sipa> what compiler, what boost version?
1050 2014-05-18 17:11:09 <Skirmant> git: v0.9.1
1051 2014-05-18 17:11:16 <Skirmant> compiler: mingw
1052 2014-05-18 17:11:35 <Skirmant> boost: 1.55.0
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1058 2014-05-18 17:13:47 <michagogo> Hm, I don't know if we actually support building on Windows
1059 2014-05-18 17:13:54 <michagogo> Does anyone actually do it?
1060 2014-05-18 17:14:14 <sipa> Diapolo does
1061 2014-05-18 17:14:19 <michagogo> Recently?
1062 2014-05-18 17:14:37 <sipa> no idea
1063 2014-05-18 17:14:54 <michagogo> Is it considered supported?
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1068 2014-05-18 17:18:37 <sipa> i would say no
1069 2014-05-18 17:19:04 <sipa> breaking it wouldn't be detected, so there's no guarantee that releases are buildable
1070 2014-05-18 17:19:57 <Skirmant> you've got to be fucking kidding me
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1072 2014-05-18 17:20:19 <Skirmant> a big project like bitcoin and i can't even compile it on windows?
1073 2014-05-18 17:20:20 <sipa> all releases are built using a deterministic environment, which runs in linux
1074 2014-05-18 17:20:35 <sipa> so for windows it's crosscompiled
1075 2014-05-18 17:21:12 <sipa> as none of the core developers use windows, it's hard to do otherwise
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1077 2014-05-18 17:22:18 <Skirmant> well, thanks for the info. I'll try to compile it on linux
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1079 2014-05-18 17:22:34 <michagogo> Skirmant: you can read the gitian descriptors to get an idea of how it's done
1080 2014-05-18 17:22:39 <michagogo> (or just use gitian)
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1082 2014-05-18 17:23:54 <Skirmant> michagogo: i'll look into it
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1102 2014-05-18 17:47:56 <azariah> Hi, where can one find a list of testnet DNS hosts? testnet-seed.bitcoin.petertodd.org times out for me atm
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1105 2014-05-18 17:49:02 <mr_burdell> azariah: these worked for me... not sure which one was active:
1106 2014-05-18 17:49:04 <mr_burdell> seednode=54.243.211.176:18333
1107 2014-05-18 17:49:04 <mr_burdell> seednode=148.251.6.214:18333
1108 2014-05-18 17:49:04 <mr_burdell> seednode=188.226.139.138:18333
1109 2014-05-18 17:49:10 <dhill> testnet-seed.bluematt.me
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1118 2014-05-18 17:54:53 <azariah> cool, thanks
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1151 2014-05-18 18:25:51 <devthink> For a multisig 2of4 tx where only one of #3 or #4 gets signed, would it be disruptive to the miners to receive a tx that was incorrectly signed?
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1155 2014-05-18 18:28:20 <sipa> the network (miners included) will just ignore any invalid transaction
1156 2014-05-18 18:28:23 <sipa> and drop in on the floor
1157 2014-05-18 18:28:38 <devthink> but would it be disruptive?
1158 2014-05-18 18:29:12 <devthink> or do they handle this as a matter of course
1159 2014-05-18 18:29:23 <sipa> what do you mean by disruptive?
1160 2014-05-18 18:29:26 <Apocalyptic> not really, as it wouldn't even be relayed
1161 2014-05-18 18:29:36 <Apocalyptic> it would just cause some wastefull CPU-cycles
1162 2014-05-18 18:29:37 <sipa> it's simply illegal, and they would likely disconnect you for sending invalid data
1163 2014-05-18 18:30:12 <devthink> ok, that's what I meant
1164 2014-05-18 18:30:37 <devthink> so I shouldn't rely on miners to make a payout decision for me...
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1166 2014-05-18 18:31:19 <sipa> can you explain what you're trying to do?
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1168 2014-05-18 18:32:08 <devthink> trying to determine how to payout a contract to participant #1 or #2 based on keys supplied by an oracle
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1170 2014-05-18 18:33:57 <poutine> How does bitcoind determine whether a tranasaction goes towards you?
1171 2014-05-18 18:34:25 <poutine> does it check every tx that appears on the chain?
1172 2014-05-18 18:34:29 <sipa> if one of the outputs matches a script that the wallet recognizes
1173 2014-05-18 18:34:31 <sipa> yes
1174 2014-05-18 18:34:48 <poutine> So what if it's ambiguous though, like say I include another condition in the script that makes it spendable?
1175 2014-05-18 18:35:21 <sipa> the receiver determines which scripts he acceps, by giving you an address that corresponds to them
1176 2014-05-18 18:35:29 <shesek> devthink, using both keys from the oracle isn't a good way to do this. the oracle fully controls the funds that way.
1177 2014-05-18 18:35:32 <sipa> if you use another, that's no a payment to him, and you're being silly
1178 2014-05-18 18:35:58 <poutine> https://blockchain.info/tx/9f17f3ce43019c24baa6d679edfdddeada856f617cd9c1f6008d49be4542b768 <- Ok I submitted this tx, it's redeemable by any 1 of 2 inputs
1179 2014-05-18 18:36:08 <sipa> it's like saying "how do you mean you didn't get my money? i dug a hole in your garden and hid it there. it's your garden, so you got it"
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1181 2014-05-18 18:36:14 <sipa> poutine: irrelevant
1182 2014-05-18 18:36:30 <sipa> poutine: the receiver must know about the multisig script and how to redeem it
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1184 2014-05-18 18:36:47 <sipa> if they didn't tell you to pay to it, there's no expectation for them to get it
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1186 2014-05-18 18:37:07 <poutine> hmm
1187 2014-05-18 18:37:13 <devthink> shesek: the oracle will publish one of two keys, whether the event occurred or not.  but the key itself does not indicate the outcome, so both participants sign theit contrat with the key and broadcasts.  One will succeed and the other will not.
1188 2014-05-18 18:37:26 <devthink> *their
1189 2014-05-18 18:37:34 <sipa> poutine: and apparently it even contains some message too
1190 2014-05-18 18:37:48 <sipa> poutine: so it's by no means a standard transaction output that you'd expect anyone to recognize
1191 2014-05-18 18:38:02 <shesek> devrandom, they publish one of the two keys, but controls both of them
1192 2014-05-18 18:38:26 <shesek> the oracle can sign an 2-of-4 transactions on its own, without any of the other keys
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1194 2014-05-18 18:38:27 <poutine> but couldn't I make it so you running your ScriptVerify with your sig and pubkey would result in a spendable output for you, but also I could spend it with a different input?
1195 2014-05-18 18:38:51 <sipa> hell no
1196 2014-05-18 18:39:06 <sipa> the receiver determines what addresses he accepts transactions on, and nobody else
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1198 2014-05-18 18:39:13 <poutine> but I can spend my posted tx with 2 entirely different inputs sipa
1199 2014-05-18 18:39:13 <sipa> because their software must support it
1200 2014-05-18 18:39:18 <poutine> I just don't get how it'd be any different
1201 2014-05-18 18:39:28 <sipa> look at my example
1202 2014-05-18 18:39:30 <sipa> i gave about
1203 2014-05-18 18:39:33 <sipa> *analogy
1204 2014-05-18 18:39:54 <sipa> if they don't know how to use it, they can't be expected to consider it a payment that credits them
1205 2014-05-18 18:40:24 <poutine> they do know how to use it, via the script
1206 2014-05-18 18:40:31 <poutine> <Sig> <pubkey>
1207 2014-05-18 18:40:42 <poutine> on the stack, execute scriptPubKey
1208 2014-05-18 18:40:53 <sipa> computers aren't intelligent, you know
1209 2014-05-18 18:41:05 <sipa> they can't magically figure out how to satisfy your script
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1211 2014-05-18 18:41:32 <sipa> and even if they did, that's by no means a guarantee that they should accept it
1212 2014-05-18 18:41:59 <sipa> as for example a 1-of-2 multisig means someone else could spend the input out from under them (the other party)
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1215 2014-05-18 18:42:47 <sipa> and please don't use transactions for spamming your messages
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1241 2014-05-18 19:00:42 <nick_devl> Hey, is there anyone available who wants to talk about blockchian.info's receive payment API?
1242 2014-05-18 19:01:00 <nick_devl> I made this post, but maybe is long winded? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=609282.0
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1273 2014-05-18 19:32:25 <michagogo> devthink: I think this came up recently
1274 2014-05-18 19:32:51 <michagogo> The trick, IIRC,  is to make use of the ability to combine ecdsa keys
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1276 2014-05-18 19:33:35 <michagogo> Say I'm betting that the Yankees lose the game they're playing right now.
1277 2014-05-18 19:33:58 <michagogo> The oracle publishes 2 pubkeys. One for if they win, and one for if they lose.
1278 2014-05-18 19:34:19 <michagogo> The person who's betting that they will win and I will each have a pubkey
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1280 2014-05-18 19:35:42 <michagogo> We each pay to a 1-of-2, with one key being my public key combined with the loss public key, and the other public key being his public key combined with the win public key
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1283 2014-05-18 19:36:07 <michagogo> The game ends, the oracle releases the corresponding private key.
1284 2014-05-18 19:36:42 <michagogo> The winner of the bet then has the other half of the private key needed to spend the bet money.
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1287 2014-05-18 19:38:01 <michagogo> And as a backup, we could make the transaction a 1-of-3, where the first two are as described, and the 3rd is the two participants' keys, so if the oracle goes away the two can resolve the bet themselves.
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1350 2014-05-18 20:38:07 <devthink> michagogo: is the 'combine' of the keys additive? multiplicative?
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1364 2014-05-18 20:53:26 <michagogo> devthink: sorry, I don't know...
1365 2014-05-18 20:53:49 <michagogo> I don't really know much about cryptography and ecdsa and all that
1366 2014-05-18 20:54:03 <devthink> can you point me to the original discussion?  Thanks.
1367 2014-05-18 20:54:28 <michagogo> I just know that you can somehow combine two public keys to get a public key, the private key to which is a combination of the two private keys
1368 2014-05-18 20:54:35 <michagogo> I'll see if I can find it in the logs
1369 2014-05-18 20:55:03 <devthink> do you remember the day?
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1372 2014-05-18 20:55:51 <gwillen> devthink: I believe it's addition in the elliptic curve group
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1374 2014-05-18 20:56:22 <gwillen> devthink: you add the two private keys, represented as points, and get a new private key; and perform the same operation on the corresponding public keys
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1376 2014-05-18 20:56:45 <devthink> thanks, i'll give it a try
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1378 2014-05-18 20:57:14 <gwillen> devthink: there's a discussion of it in this talk from bitcoin 2013, as I recall: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwyALGlG33Q
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1380 2014-05-18 20:57:44 <michagogo> devthink: http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2014/05/05
1381 2014-05-18 20:58:00 <michagogo> devthink: I didn't but I just opened all of may in tabs and ctrl-f'd for oracle
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