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 111 2014-05-21 01:35:01 <kostaz> hi guys
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 173 2014-05-21 02:17:58 <legerde> ryan-c: Im new around here, so if my answer is wrong, I am sorry.   But in order to get latest transactions, I use jsonrpc from python to get transactions, like this:
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 175 2014-05-21 02:18:10 <legerde> ryan-c: from jsonrpc import ServiceProxy ryan-c: access = ServiceProxy("http://<user>:<pass>@127.0.0.1:8332"); access.getinfo(); ryan-c: latest_block = access.getblockcount(); ryan-c: block = access.getblock(access.getblockhash(access.getblockcount())) ryan-c: transaction = access.getrawtransaction(block['tx'][0]) ryan-c: decoded = access.decoderawtransaction(transaction)
 176 2014-05-21 02:19:13 <legerde> ryan-c: I assume that style of access gives me verified transactions as they show up.   I watch for the blockcount to change and then parse the transactions in the new block
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 179 2014-05-21 02:19:44 <legerde> I am hoping someone can nod that this is a good method for getting the latest "verified" transactions.
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 236 2014-05-21 03:06:28 <ryan-c> legerde: I'm looking for something where i don't have to poll, and i wan unconfirmed transactions. i figured out how to do it with bitcore
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 241 2014-05-21 03:08:07 <legerde> Ok.  Just attempting to be helpful. :)  Cheers.
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 263 2014-05-21 03:28:00 <jcrubino> is nlock time reinstated into the standard client protocol?
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 356 2014-05-21 04:26:02 <shadowbroker> so i want my server to generate some key pairs. as i understand it, i dont need to run bitcoind. i can just randomly generate a 51-character string that starts with a '5' and i'm golden... is this true?
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 360 2014-05-21 04:28:40 <Belxjander> shadowbroker: totally crap afaik
 361 2014-05-21 04:28:48 <shadowbroker> explain?
 362 2014-05-21 04:29:02 <Belxjander> shadowbroker: you need to start from a crypto key pair and then the addresses are generated from the key afaik
 363 2014-05-21 04:29:42 <shadowbroker> but you should be able to generate the public key from the private key, no?
 364 2014-05-21 04:30:44 <[\\\]> shadowbroker, do you know how pub/priv key stuff works?
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 366 2014-05-21 04:31:00 <shadowbroker> only a conceptual understanding
 367 2014-05-21 04:31:08 ajweiss has joined
 368 2014-05-21 04:31:12 <[\\\]> shadowbroker, there are a few js libraries available that will generate what you're looking for without having to run anything bitcoind
 369 2014-05-21 04:31:16 mappum has joined
 370 2014-05-21 04:31:24 <shadowbroker> any suggestions?
 371 2014-05-21 04:31:53 jps_ has joined
 372 2014-05-21 04:32:08 <[\\\]> shadowbroker, you can run a local instance of this: https://github.com/brainwallet/brainwallet.github.com
 373 2014-05-21 04:32:13 <[\\\]> strip off the web stuff
 374 2014-05-21 04:32:28 <shadowbroker> it seems like i could just ssh-keygen XD any reason this wouldnt work?
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 376 2014-05-21 04:32:35 <[\\\]> yes
 377 2014-05-21 04:32:46 <[\\\]> you really need to do more reading
 378 2014-05-21 04:32:49 <jrick> shadowbroker: WIF private keys also have the network identifier (which must match mainnet or testnet) and a checksum
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 381 2014-05-21 04:32:55 <jrick> so you can't have just random crap in there
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 383 2014-05-21 04:34:33 <shadowbroker> im not talking about generating a WIF, im saying generate the private key on its own
 384 2014-05-21 04:34:48 <shadowbroker> a WIF should be 52 characters i believe
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 386 2014-05-21 04:35:41 <jrick> a private key is just a 256-bit number
 387 2014-05-21 04:35:52 <shadowbroker> exactly
 388 2014-05-21 04:36:01 <shadowbroker> so i dont see the problem? :/
 389 2014-05-21 04:36:06 <jrick> that's not the 5... string
 390 2014-05-21 04:36:23 ajweiss has joined
 391 2014-05-21 04:36:45 <shadowbroker> "For private keys associated with uncompressed public keys, they are 51 characters and always start with the number 5"
 392 2014-05-21 04:36:51 <shadowbroker> am i not understanding this correctly?
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 394 2014-05-21 04:37:28 <jrick> that's referring to wif and the length is dependant on whether it's representing a public key serilzied compressed or not
 395 2014-05-21 04:37:37 <shadowbroker> hm
 396 2014-05-21 04:37:43 <[\\\]> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Elliptic_Curve_Digital_Signature_Algorithm
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 403 2014-05-21 04:42:58 <shadowbroker> i still dont get the problem though. what about this signing algorithm prevents me from generating private keys? :/
 404 2014-05-21 04:43:48 <jrick> shadowbroker: I don't have links to bitcoind code but if you can read go, here is what I've been working on in my free time (a better WIF api for btcutil, the old one is on github but isn't very pretty) http://sprunge.us/YiRZ
 405 2014-05-21 04:43:52 <Luke-Jr> shadowbroker: why would you be prevented from generating private keys?
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 408 2014-05-21 04:44:25 <jrick> hoping that can be merged in tomorrow after some oks
 409 2014-05-21 04:44:33 <shadowbroker> no idea
 410 2014-05-21 04:45:39 <Luke-Jr> shadowbroker: maybe you're misunderstanding the WIF format?
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 412 2014-05-21 04:45:50 <Luke-Jr> shadowbroker: private keys do *not* "start with a '5'"
 413 2014-05-21 04:46:00 <shadowbroker> ya, i misunderstood the article i was reading
 414 2014-05-21 04:46:01 <jrick> wif is just a string encoding that's used for easy import and export
 415 2014-05-21 04:46:04 <Luke-Jr> ok
 416 2014-05-21 04:46:04 <shadowbroker> so if we back up a second
 417 2014-05-21 04:46:11 <shadowbroker> i can generate a random 256 bit number
 418 2014-05-21 04:46:16 <shadowbroker> and bam, thats a new private key
 419 2014-05-21 04:46:19 <Luke-Jr> sure
 420 2014-05-21 04:46:24 ajweiss has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 421 2014-05-21 04:46:28 <Luke-Jr> note, in practice it's not the ideal way to do it.
 422 2014-05-21 04:46:38 <shadowbroker> of course. its cryptographically insecure :P
 423 2014-05-21 04:46:52 ajweiss has joined
 424 2014-05-21 04:46:56 <Luke-Jr> well, it's secure as long as you use a secure random and only use the keypair once
 425 2014-05-21 04:47:05 <Luke-Jr> but you have to do it for every transaction
 426 2014-05-21 04:47:08 <Luke-Jr> and maintain backups
 427 2014-05-21 04:47:09 <Luke-Jr> etc
 428 2014-05-21 04:47:15 <shadowbroker> aye i understand that
 429 2014-05-21 04:47:37 zcopley has joined
 430 2014-05-21 04:47:48 <shadowbroker> but what i dont understand is why everyone is advocating the use of libs when i could just set ssh-keygen to generate a keypair using ECDSA
 431 2014-05-21 04:48:22 <Luke-Jr> because like I said, that method isn't ideal
 432 2014-05-21 04:48:38 <Luke-Jr> what is better, is generating a random *seed* once, then making private keys deterministically from that
 433 2014-05-21 04:49:09 <Luke-Jr> then you can backup that seed once, and your bitcoins are safe no matter how many transactions you do
 434 2014-05-21 04:49:14 <Luke-Jr> (https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki for the standard spec)
 435 2014-05-21 04:50:08 <shadowbroker> and if your seed gets compromised? :/ that sounds less secure than generating each key pair individually
 436 2014-05-21 04:50:24 <Luke-Jr> well, obviously you don't want your seed to get compromised!
 437 2014-05-21 04:50:34 <[\\\]> if 1 seed is compromised, then most likely many are compromised
 438 2014-05-21 04:50:42 <[\\\]> at least with 1 seed, its much easier to backup
 439 2014-05-21 04:50:48 <shadowbroker> true
 440 2014-05-21 04:50:48 <[\\\]> you could even print it out for safe keeping.
 441 2014-05-21 04:50:49 <Luke-Jr> right, that's no more likely than all your random keypairs beign compromised
 442 2014-05-21 04:51:15 <Luke-Jr> shadowbroker: furthermore, you can generate a neutered copy of the seed which cannot sign
 443 2014-05-21 04:51:24 <Belxjander> What is stopping you from generating a seed, generating a block of keys from it...generating a 2nd seed, and generating a seperate set of keys
 444 2014-05-21 04:51:33 <[\\\]> nothing.
 445 2014-05-21 04:51:37 <Belxjander> and then making a multi-signature setup requiring both sets of keys ?
 446 2014-05-21 04:51:40 <Luke-Jr> shadowbroker: so, you can have your wallet online and readily visible, but keep your private seed completely offline
 447 2014-05-21 04:51:43 <[\\\]> each seed could be used for say 10k addresses.
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 449 2014-05-21 04:51:53 <Luke-Jr> Belxjander: nothing, that's the idea
 450 2014-05-21 04:51:53 <[\\\]> and by addresses, I mean pubkeys
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 452 2014-05-21 04:52:03 <shadowbroker> alright...
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 455 2014-05-21 04:52:13 <shadowbroker> that sounds fine and dandy, but what's your point?
 456 2014-05-21 04:52:19 <[\\\]> lol
 457 2014-05-21 04:52:35 <Luke-Jr> shadowbroker: point is pure random ECDSA keys are lacking :P
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 460 2014-05-21 04:53:22 <shadowbroker> lacking for use? maybe. im talking about implementation here >.>
 461 2014-05-21 04:53:43 <Luke-Jr> lacking in security.
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 463 2014-05-21 04:53:53 <shadowbroker> alright
 464 2014-05-21 04:53:57 <Luke-Jr> or safety, if you prefer
 465 2014-05-21 04:54:13 <Luke-Jr> but you can do multisig tricks like Belxjander suggested for even higher security too
 466 2014-05-21 04:54:22 <shadowbroker> yes
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 468 2014-05-21 04:55:23 <shadowbroker> can this deterministic function be just about anything i want, or are there crypto libs that will do this for me, given a seed?
 469 2014-05-21 04:55:58 impulse has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 470 2014-05-21 04:56:33 <Luke-Jr> shadowbroker: the latter. BIP 32 specifies the algorithms to use
 471 2014-05-21 04:56:35 <shadowbroker> or is that the link you provided earlier?
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 479 2014-05-21 04:58:38 <Luke-Jr> yes
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 522 2014-05-21 05:55:21 <shadowbroker> it seems like someone would have bothered linking this: https://github.com/bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib
 523 2014-05-21 05:55:30 <shadowbroker> just sayin'...
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 558 2014-05-21 06:26:34 <Codder7> Would anyone know how to compile the mobile bitcoin wallet ?
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 600 2014-05-21 07:04:15 <mus1cb0x> is all crypto currencies operate with a blockchain?
 601 2014-05-21 07:04:20 <mus1cb0x> s/is/do
 602 2014-05-21 07:04:53 <wumpus> all *decentralized* cryptocurrencies do
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 604 2014-05-21 07:05:24 <mus1cb0x> so then is the variance between them their format and protocol of interaction?
 605 2014-05-21 07:05:42 <mus1cb0x> (assuming there is variance. i know a lot of alt coins are just bitcoin code ripoffs)
 606 2014-05-21 07:06:37 <wumpus> the variance is mostly minor parameter and UI tweaking and change of the PoW algorithm
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 610 2014-05-21 07:08:33 <mus1cb0x> ok. ty for clearing that up for me
 611 2014-05-21 07:08:39 <mus1cb0x> i wasn't sure how commonplace blockchains were
 612 2014-05-21 07:09:04 <wumpus> some have also modified the network code to run over other overlay networks like I2P, but that's hardly a difference to the coin itself and will probably make it into bitcoind as well at some point
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 616 2014-05-21 07:10:45 <Luke-Jr> mus1cb0x: Bitcoin is really the only decentralised cryptocurrency once you ignore forks and scams
 617 2014-05-21 07:10:58 <wumpus> blockchains are the single invention that brought us decentralized cryptocurrencies
 618 2014-05-21 07:11:36 <mus1cb0x> what about ethereum? (i'm not here advocating, but it genuinely seems different enough to not be shamware)
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 620 2014-05-21 07:11:45 <wumpus> how those blockchains are structured and which signing/crypto is used could be wildly different (although in practice it is not)
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 622 2014-05-21 07:12:41 <Luke-Jr> mus1cb0x: Ethereum isn't really all that different in theory; mostly it's just smoke and mirrors fundraising. Also, this stuff is kind off-topic here..
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 626 2014-05-21 07:13:26 <mus1cb0x> well ty again for clarifying
 627 2014-05-21 07:13:40 <wumpus> ethereum also uses a blockchain, but has a different scripting language and POW
 628 2014-05-21 07:14:04 <mus1cb0x> so with ppl trying to use the blockchain for 'app persistent state', message passing etc, are there any plans for how to handle blockchain growth/pruning?
 629 2014-05-21 07:15:16 <wumpus> the scripting language is there to add programmability to the logic to determine whether a transaction is allowed to send funds on
 630 2014-05-21 07:17:12 <wumpus> I think the most promising idea there is commit-to-UTXO (chain state), it would allow nodes to fetch and verify parts of the chain with SPV-level security
 631 2014-05-21 07:17:21 <mus1cb0x> my question is more about the growth of the blockchain. if ppl start to use the bitcoin blockchain for much more than transaction ledger, its size could get onerous for nodes. any ideas in place for handling that?
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 633 2014-05-21 07:17:48 <wumpus> bitcoin will likely at some point also switch to a different scripting system, although time will have to tell what is really useful there, experiments like ethereum are useful there
 634 2014-05-21 07:17:50 <mus1cb0x> ah so partial blockchain representation while preserving integrity?
 635 2014-05-21 07:18:05 <Belxjander> mus1cb0x: indexing and storage considerations?
 636 2014-05-21 07:18:10 <mus1cb0x> yea
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 638 2014-05-21 07:18:32 <mus1cb0x> let's say bitcoin takes off in every way, could we have a 100GB blockchain in a few years?
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 640 2014-05-21 07:18:39 <mus1cb0x> that could cut out a lot of nodes
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 642 2014-05-21 07:19:38 <Belxjander> price of storage vs bandwidth?
 643 2014-05-21 07:21:06 <wumpus> in preactice it seems that bandwidth is a larger issue than storage
 644 2014-05-21 07:21:09 <Belxjander> I see no problem with a 100GB blockchain if given  a means of RAID or other continuious block storage being available
 645 2014-05-21 07:21:33 <wumpus> bandwidth is expensive in some part of the world
 646 2014-05-21 07:21:36 <mus1cb0x> any idea how many GB of bw hosting a full blockchain node currently consumes per month?
 647 2014-05-21 07:21:49 * warren looks
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 649 2014-05-21 07:21:59 <wumpus> storage is cheap and easy to import/export between countries so much more homogeneous
 650 2014-05-21 07:22:17 <warren> hmm
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 654 2014-05-21 07:24:00 <warren> wumpus: #4185 (after squash) and #4205 are ready.  I'm eager to get them into nightly builds soon.
 655 2014-05-21 07:24:12 <wumpus> warren: yeah
 656 2014-05-21 07:24:35 <coryfields> wumpus: i'm afraid we might've underestimated the complications due to signing
 657 2014-05-21 07:25:08 <wumpus> coryfields: well it sounded very complicated to me already
 658 2014-05-21 07:25:20 <coryfields> i think i can put together a POC in a day or two, but it's going to get nasty
 659 2014-05-21 07:25:27 <wumpus> coryfields: are you going to merge #4205 into your pull?
 660 2014-05-21 07:25:34 <warren> wumpus: he wanted it separate
 661 2014-05-21 07:25:47 <warren> coryfields: signing what in particular?
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 663 2014-05-21 07:26:10 <coryfields> i just wanted the PRs separate so that one wouldn't block another
 664 2014-05-21 07:26:36 <coryfields> (i didn't click, i assume it's the win32 bump)
 665 2014-05-21 07:26:38 <warren> I've extensively tested both, no reason to delay merging
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 667 2014-05-21 07:26:52 <wumpus> coryfields: it's the macosx bump 
 668 2014-05-21 07:27:00 <wumpus> oh wait it's not
 669 2014-05-21 07:27:07 <wumpus> ok I understand now why they're seperate, sorry
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 671 2014-05-21 07:27:47 <wumpus> I thought warren created a pull on top of yours to upgrade the macosx qt version :-)
 672 2014-05-21 07:27:58 <warren> I closed it
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 674 2014-05-21 07:28:10 <coryfields> he did at one point, i pulled that change into my branch
 675 2014-05-21 07:28:13 <wumpus> windows should definitely be separate
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 678 2014-05-21 07:29:27 <coryfields> wumpus: do you have a copy of the osx signing key as well?
 679 2014-05-21 07:29:30 <coryfields> or just gavin?
 680 2014-05-21 07:29:38 <wumpus> I don't
 681 2014-05-21 07:29:51 <coryfields> ok
 682 2014-05-21 07:30:09 <coryfields> i've got a few crazy ideas brewing, i'm gonna sleep on em
 683 2014-05-21 07:30:16 <warren> signing the dmg from linux?
 684 2014-05-21 07:30:27 <wumpus> so uhm... I'm going to merge #4185, anyone against?
 685 2014-05-21 07:30:28 <coryfields> warren: will squash tomorrow if wumpus is ok with the current status
 686 2014-05-21 07:30:44 <warren> wumpus: just needs squash
 687 2014-05-21 07:30:51 <wumpus> ok
 688 2014-05-21 07:31:06 <coryfields> warren: at this point, i'd be ok with any deterministic sig as a first step
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 690 2014-05-21 07:31:35 <warren> coryfields: eh?  surely this is outside of gitian right?  (others can't reproduce it)
 691 2014-05-21 07:31:41 <coryfields> basically we need a way to sign with the private key, detach the payload, and inject it with gitian
 692 2014-05-21 07:31:50 <warren> why within gitian?
 693 2014-05-21 07:32:08 <wumpus> no need to do it within gitian, otherwise everyone needs a signing key right?
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 696 2014-05-21 07:32:21 <coryfields> wumpus: re-read the above
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 698 2014-05-21 07:33:05 <warren> Not sure what the "inject it with gitian" part means.
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 700 2014-05-21 07:33:17 <mus1cb0x> what do ppl think of chain.com?
 701 2014-05-21 07:33:30 <wumpus> anyhow if there is a way to go back from the signed executable to the unsigned one that matches gitian, that'd be already great
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 703 2014-05-21 07:33:48 <warren> (especially in a cross-platform way)
 704 2014-05-21 07:33:52 <coryfields> someone (gavin) would have to manually sign and detach. at that point, the private key is no longer needed and the result can be used
 705 2014-05-21 07:34:19 <warren> coryfields: still not clear what exactly that means
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 708 2014-05-21 07:34:35 <wumpus> oh sure a cross-platform way would be nice, but let's get something working before diving into other complications
 709 2014-05-21 07:34:42 <coryfields> wumpus: i've considered that as well. that would likely take the shape of a small script inside the dmg that would strip that stuff out and display the original hash, to be checked against a known value
 710 2014-05-21 07:34:47 <wumpus> this is a deeep rabbit hole
 711 2014-05-21 07:35:06 <warren> you need to execute something in the dmg in order to get a hash?  doesn't sound great
 712 2014-05-21 07:35:36 <warren> coryfields: sounds like we're ok with merging #4185 now, if you're too tired to squash it's ok tomorrow
 713 2014-05-21 07:35:45 <warren> I'd like to get the nightly build testers on it ASAP.
 714 2014-05-21 07:35:54 <coryfields> warren: that's one out of a few options i've come up with so far. i'm very open to ideas, my brain is pretty melted atm
 715 2014-05-21 07:36:06 <wumpus> yeah, a tool that's usable from outside the dmg would be better, but if something inside the dmg is more realistic at first go for that
 716 2014-05-21 07:36:23 <warren> something inside the dmg is no better than what we have now
 717 2014-05-21 07:36:29 <wumpus> anyhow --l et's get 4185 squashed and merged
 718 2014-05-21 07:36:35 <warren> the thing you execute could just lie =)
 719 2014-05-21 07:36:46 <wumpus> warren: .. LOL, true
 720 2014-05-21 07:37:00 <wumpus> print "The hash is 2837abcd"
 721 2014-05-21 07:37:13 <warren> the bitcoin-qt binary within the dmg is what is modified by native signing?
 722 2014-05-21 07:37:15 <coryfields> heh, the "thing you execute" would spit out the original file
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 724 2014-05-21 07:37:47 <wumpus> coryfields: I can do the squashing as well if you want
 725 2014-05-21 07:38:01 <coryfields> i suppose it'd be possible to sneak a few nasties into the padding, but, not the most likely attack :)
 726 2014-05-21 07:38:24 <mus1cb0x> what do ppl think of chain.com?
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 728 2014-05-21 07:38:31 <wumpus> mus1cb0x: take it to #bitcoin please
 729 2014-05-21 07:38:38 <mus1cb0x> oh sorry
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 732 2014-05-21 07:39:06 <coryfields> wumpus: go for it if you'd like, i've got my tools put away for the night
 733 2014-05-21 07:39:14 <coryfields> otherwise i'm happy to do it first thing tomorrow
 734 2014-05-21 07:39:18 <wumpus> coryfields: yes just get some sleep :)
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 736 2014-05-21 07:39:40 <wumpus> I'm going to go through the entire process one, then squash it and merge it
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 738 2014-05-21 07:39:53 <coryfields> i've been reading in circles on apple dev sites for the past few hours :\
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 741 2014-05-21 07:40:06 <coryfields> sounds good, thanks
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 743 2014-05-21 07:41:05 <coryfields> a trend i've noticed: if you google 'how to fix xyz busted part in my macbook', the most common answers tend to be: "it's a few years old anyway, just get a new one"
 744 2014-05-21 07:41:24 <warren> how dare you question the ghost of Jobs?
 745 2014-05-21 07:41:27 <coryfields> likewise, trying to do something non-standard with osx tools tends to result in: "well, don't do that then".
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 747 2014-05-21 07:42:15 <wumpus> coryfields: well that's what rich people with little knowledge of computers tend to do, and that's a big target audience for apple :)
 748 2014-05-21 07:43:06 <wumpus> contrast it with the linux approach where we try to salvage anything that can still do computation and use it in some way hehe
 749 2014-05-21 07:43:37 <coryfields> heh
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 751 2014-05-21 07:44:17 <coryfields> i think a tool to inject the signed payload won't be too bad, just a few days of hackery. We just need to settle on a compromise for 0.9.2.
 752 2014-05-21 07:44:22 <wumpus> but yes I suppose the official sites will be of little help especially when trying to do things in cross-platform ways, or when you want to do something that is a slight bit outside what mainstream users do
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 754 2014-05-21 07:44:26 <coryfields> I'll try to have something to propose tomorrow
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 757 2014-05-21 07:45:35 <coryfields> well at this point i've pretty much ruled out cross-platform. at least for now. I just want determinism back.
 758 2014-05-21 07:45:44 <wumpus> it's the same for microsoft really, the mingw part is what adds most complication, all the docs apply to their own compilers and tool chains
 759 2014-05-21 07:46:27 <coryfields> yep, same thing
 760 2014-05-21 07:46:40 <coryfields> most hacks revolve around xcode
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 762 2014-05-21 07:47:02 <coryfields> luckily, though, xcode basically just wraps the cli tools, which are open-source
 763 2014-05-21 07:47:23 <wumpus> yes that's nice 
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 765 2014-05-21 07:48:44 <coryfields> ok, nnite
 766 2014-05-21 07:48:48 <wumpus> night!
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 812 2014-05-21 08:23:31 <warren> wumpus: so ... 7 day delay for rc was yesterday.  ready for rc tomorrow?
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 818 2014-05-21 08:26:49 <wumpus> warren: as I've told Cory, I want to do the rc this week, doesn't need to be tomorrow
 819 2014-05-21 08:28:12 <wumpus> warren: which tag have people been building in #4185?
 820 2014-05-21 08:28:45 <warren> wumpus: the latest commit in 4185
 821 2014-05-21 08:28:51 <warren> wumpus: all of it should just be squashed into the first
 822 2014-05-21 08:29:01 <warren> wumpus: please see my comments in #4205
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 824 2014-05-21 08:29:23 <warren> stick with 5.2.1 because it's well tested and matching OSX, unless you want to revalidate 5.3.0 on both OSX and Windows
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 826 2014-05-21 08:29:30 <wumpus> yes, but to test determinism we need to target some well-defined tag
 827 2014-05-21 08:29:47 <wumpus> for example 0.9.1 release
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 829 2014-05-21 08:30:08 <wumpus> targeting a random commit is a recipe for confusion
 830 2014-05-21 08:30:09 <warren> oh
 831 2014-05-21 08:30:17 <warren> you mean the master commit that it's on top of?
 832 2014-05-21 08:30:19 <wumpus> anyhow, I'll just pick something then
 833 2014-05-21 08:30:29 <coryfields> heh
 834 2014-05-21 08:30:36 <coryfields> wumpus: i've been through this once already :)
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 837 2014-05-21 08:32:24 <coryfields> plenty of head-scratching earlier trying to figure out what to build
 838 2014-05-21 08:32:49 <wumpus> hehe
 839 2014-05-21 08:33:19 <wumpus> sigh, I just threw away my built dependency instead of copying it, gbuild should be more forgiving :(
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 841 2014-05-21 08:34:12 <coryfields> i suppose adding an '-o /output/path' would make too much sense? :)
 842 2014-05-21 08:34:15 <wumpus> maybe keep the last N build results instead of throwing them away immediately
 843 2014-05-21 08:34:18 <coryfields> (i constantly do the same thing)
 844 2014-05-21 08:34:22 <wumpus> yes, sounds god
 845 2014-05-21 08:34:25 <wumpus> good*
 846 2014-05-21 08:34:46 * warren looks at gitian source
 847 2014-05-21 08:34:59 <wumpus> better than my solution
 848 2014-05-21 08:35:07 <warren> eh... I don't have time for this
 849 2014-05-21 08:35:19 * warren adds to the list of nice-to-haves.
 850 2014-05-21 08:35:23 <wumpus> on the other hand, outputting directly to the inputs directory is also a recipe for confusion
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 852 2014-05-21 08:35:42 <warren> build/out  build/out.1 build/out.2 ?
 853 2014-05-21 08:35:45 <coryfields> wumpus: ultimately, gitian really needs to learn how to chain inputs->outputs
 854 2014-05-21 08:36:01 <warren> coryfields: perhaps with Makefile? =)
 855 2014-05-21 08:36:05 <wumpus> the gitian source is very simple and straightforward from what I've seen (I've did a few small changes)
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 857 2014-05-21 08:36:16 <wumpus> please don't overdesign, the perfect is the enemy of the good here :p
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 859 2014-05-21 08:36:35 <warren> gitian could also learn to bomb out immediately if a named input is missing
 860 2014-05-21 08:36:44 <wumpus> I think a -o option makes a lot of sense, you'd still do a copy step but at least youd wouldn't lose the result
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 863 2014-05-21 08:37:15 <wumpus> warren: yeah
 864 2014-05-21 08:37:23 <coryfields> fair enough
 865 2014-05-21 08:37:30 <warren> Perhaps we could also save the expected hash of an output in descriptors. It would error out if the output is not what is expected.
 866 2014-05-21 08:37:50 <warren> well, still output, but non-zero return
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 957 2014-05-21 10:08:50 <warren> wumpus: hmm, I guess we skipped each other
 958 2014-05-21 10:09:02 <warren> wumpus: well, windows isn't doing 5.2.1 at all if you want 5.3.0?
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 971 2014-05-21 10:14:21 <wumpus> I just don't see the point on going to 5.2.1 in windows if there is a 5.3.0 out, I mean, as far as I know there are no known issues with 5.2.0 so we can stay with that for 0.9.2, and for 0.10 we can go to 5.3.0
 972 2014-05-21 10:14:55 <wumpus> building the qt dependencies takes a long time, it needs to be tested, new problems could be introduced, so it's just safer to stay with our current qt dependency for windows
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 974 2014-05-21 10:15:33 <wumpus> having multiple versions of qt in use is unavoidable anyway; for Linux we need to stick with 4.6
 975 2014-05-21 10:15:44 <warren> OK, agreed, closing the windows qt upgrade
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 978 2014-05-21 10:16:44 <warren> michagogo: if you want something simple to do, please handle qt-5.3.0 for bitcoin-0.10 windows
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 980 2014-05-21 10:19:35 <warren> adding OSX to the nightly builder now
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 983 2014-05-21 10:20:49 <warren> wumpus: ah, I'm an idiot, i see what you mean now.
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 986 2014-05-21 10:22:50 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: if there weren't any known issues with 5.2.0, there would be no 5.2.1 release o.O
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 988 2014-05-21 10:23:58 <warren> Luke-Jr: we're using a tiny subset of it
 989 2014-05-21 10:24:22 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: so - is there anything in the 5.2.1 changes, on the windows platform, that makes it worth the trouble to do this ?
 990 2014-05-21 10:24:34 <Luke-Jr> probably more trouble to find out, than to do it :P
 991 2014-05-21 10:24:40 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: it's a compromise, something could be said for both upgrading and not upgrading
 992 2014-05-21 10:24:55 <wumpus> heh
 993 2014-05-21 10:25:25 <warren> the reason I upgraded it to 5.2.1 was because coryfields had a note about upgrading both and I wanted to remove one giant tarball from inputs/
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1015 2014-05-21 10:38:46 <warren> nightly builder just got stuck in the perpetual configure loop ...
1016 2014-05-21 10:39:04 <warren> perhaps I need to add "If it's taking too long kill and try again."
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1021 2014-05-21 10:45:39 <wumpus> according to Cory it's not perpetual and will finish eventually
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1025 2014-05-21 10:46:59 <warren> I let it go an hour once
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1047 2014-05-21 11:00:59 <wumpus> this is sort-of nice http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/262vvi/contribute_back_to_the_bitcoin_network_by/
1048 2014-05-21 11:02:09 <warren> there has to be a ton of nodes at Digitalocean already
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1050 2014-05-21 11:02:32 <wumpus> sure, but it allows people with just a bitcoin wallet to fund a full node, instead of having to set it up themselves
1051 2014-05-21 11:03:21 <GAit> sipa: remember the signature i was talking about yesterday passed via protobuf extention as suggested by Gavin? we were discussing internally whtether the signature should be x509 or ecdsa, putting it all down in a document for general review
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1053 2014-05-21 11:04:02 <wumpus> I suppose it could be further automated/decentralized by using something like Mikehearn's lighthouse that uses anyone-can-pay transactions
1054 2014-05-21 11:05:09 <sipa> wumpus: i'd say the ability to run a full node yourself is more important than whether or not one actually runs :)
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1057 2014-05-21 11:05:56 <warren> falling asleep.  I think this master branch run will succeed and upload.  adding 0.9.2 branch when I wake up.
1058 2014-05-21 11:06:05 <wumpus> sipa: sure, it is, but there are many people that are on network connections that simply don't allow running a full node (they get clogged, or it gets too expensive, etc).. or that technically cannot do it
1059 2014-05-21 11:06:12 <sipa> right
1060 2014-05-21 11:06:57 <wumpus> for the second set of users it would be possible to sell simple ARM-based boxes that run a full node automatically, but if your network connection cannot run one then you're out of luck
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1065 2014-05-21 11:09:50 <GAit> do you guys think it matters much if we just keep going with x509 since we are already using the payment protocol or is it smarter to use ecdsa, or both?
1066 2014-05-21 11:09:52 <wumpus> I've been testing it the last few weeks, having quite some success with cubox-i boxes with a USB stick for block chain storage
1067 2014-05-21 11:10:11 <GAit> guys and girls, that is
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1069 2014-05-21 11:10:43 <wumpus> x509 can do ecdsa, right?
1070 2014-05-21 11:11:03 <wumpus> it's meant to be crypto algo independent
1071 2014-05-21 11:11:46 <sipa> ecdsa yes, but i doubt secp256k1 is sufficiently standard
1072 2014-05-21 11:12:03 <GAit> i did't explain myself correctly, what i meant is either x509 certificates or plain ecdsa with no cert chain, no CA etc. This is for an additional signature passed via a protobuf extention to the payment protocol
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1075 2014-05-21 11:13:00 <GAit> the people that will receive the signature already have to know you and trust you, you could pass the plain ecdsa pkey offline or via x509
1076 2014-05-21 11:13:42 <wumpus> well the point of CA chains is that someone otherwise unrelated to you can check your key, if you don't need that, you could roll something of your own
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1078 2014-05-21 11:14:01 <sipa> x509 brings a huge amount of complexity
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1081 2014-05-21 11:14:39 <wumpus> yes that may not be worth it, on the other hand, some complexity exists for a reason and if you end-up reinventing things you may do it badly
1082 2014-05-21 11:14:52 <GAit> right, so maybe plain ecdsa, and the public key/certificate for that can be passed to parties offline or via x509 on a normal ssled page
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1087 2014-05-21 11:20:15 <GAit> thanks for your input sipa  and wumpus
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1089 2014-05-21 11:23:04 <chichov> where can I find the VarInt definition in the code?
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1093 2014-05-21 11:27:31 <chichov> wondering if the code enforces the smallest possible VarInt for a given data size
1094 2014-05-21 11:27:36 <sipa> yes
1095 2014-05-21 11:28:11 <sipa> it's called CompactSize in serialize.h
1096 2014-05-21 11:28:25 <sipa> there's a CVarInt as well there, but that's not used in the protocol
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1100 2014-05-21 11:30:06 <chichov> and if a smaller chunk of data is encoded with a bigger VarInt than intended, then the "non-canonical ReadCompactSize()" error is thrown, right?
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1102 2014-05-21 11:30:58 <sipa> since recently, indeed
1103 2014-05-21 11:31:12 <chichov> when were those changes made?
1104 2014-05-21 11:31:16 <sipa> 0.9 maybe
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1106 2014-05-21 11:31:48 <chichov> either way, then the VarInt definition I have in my spec is out-of-date and has to be corrected
1107 2014-05-21 11:32:11 <sipa> because it doesn't mention the requirement of minimum length encoding?
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1109 2014-05-21 11:32:54 <chichov> yes, it states that a 9-byte VarInt can encode anything that is smaller-equal than an uint64_t
1110 2014-05-21 11:33:04 <sipa> right, that's indeed wrong
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1112 2014-05-21 11:33:24 <chichov> noted, will include it soon
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1175 2014-05-21 12:39:10 <netg_> whats cory fields bitcointalk.org account?
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1181 2014-05-21 12:45:19 <wumpus> cfields
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1183 2014-05-21 12:46:40 <kinlo> so isn't there a good definition on the bitcoin protocol now?
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1185 2014-05-21 12:47:45 <kinlo> there was this guy on the mailinglist, it made me smile, as gavin/jeff said there would be sattelites doing bitcoin in space long before there would be a formal spec of the protocol
1186 2014-05-21 12:47:48 <wumpus> kinlo: http://bitcoindev.us.to/en/developer-documentation
1187 2014-05-21 12:48:16 <wumpus> there are also various other documents, but it depends on what you want to know
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1189 2014-05-21 12:48:29 <kinlo> formal specs :p
1190 2014-05-21 12:48:41 <wumpus> see the source code
1191 2014-05-21 12:49:16 <kinlo> see, that's what that pdf on the mailinglist was supposed to solve, at least that is how I see it
1192 2014-05-21 12:49:24 <kinlo> to not receive that answer anymore :)
1193 2014-05-21 12:49:27 <wumpus> but what is the issue?
1194 2014-05-21 12:49:35 <dexX7> kinlo: which one?
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1196 2014-05-21 12:49:39 <pigeons> also there is a satelite coming pretty soon
1197 2014-05-21 12:50:01 <wumpus> anyhow, if you like better documentation, write it, that's how it works here :p
1198 2014-05-21 12:50:09 <kinlo> wumpus: no real issue :)
1199 2014-05-21 12:50:17 <dexX7> http://enetium.com/resources/Bitcoin.pdf ?
1200 2014-05-21 12:50:22 <kinlo> it just made me smile when I saw it
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1202 2014-05-21 12:50:35 <kinlo> dexX7: that's the one
1203 2014-05-21 12:51:00 <wumpus> Saivann and David can always use help with their developer documentation project
1204 2014-05-21 12:51:05 <kinlo> altough I doubt it is complete
1205 2014-05-21 12:51:59 <cbeams> kinlo: care to share what you're up to? there are various efforts underway, but their relevance depends on what you specifically need.
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1207 2014-05-21 12:52:35 <kinlo> cbeams: nothing, was just commenting on a conversation which is now offscreen
1208 2014-05-21 12:52:56 <wumpus> also 'protocol' is very wide, it could be about the network protocol, or the blockchain, or the payment protocol, etc etc :p
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1211 2014-05-21 12:53:40 <wumpus> that pdf is interesting
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1213 2014-05-21 12:55:15 <wumpus> cbeams: we should really get those efforts linked on the bitcoin.org site
1214 2014-05-21 12:55:31 <wumpus> there is actually a lot of documentation out there, but it's hard to find
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1216 2014-05-21 12:56:19 <cbeams> yeah, the root page of the new developer-guide aims to be a kind of portal to that effect: http://bitcoindev.us.to/en/developer-documentation
1217 2014-05-21 12:56:40 <cbeams> you'll notice that some of those links are marked as external.
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1219 2014-05-21 12:56:42 <wumpus> I linked that too a few lines before
1220 2014-05-21 12:57:02 <cbeams> ah, I missed that.
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1223 2014-05-21 12:57:28 <wumpus> but yes, it's getting there
1224 2014-05-21 12:57:35 <cbeams> did you have something different in mind? or do you just mean that we ought to add (more) links to that doc as appropriate?
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1229 2014-05-21 12:58:26 <wumpus> well for example that PDF linked above is interesting, someone writes it, but almost no one knows about it
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1231 2014-05-21 12:58:58 <cbeams> yeah. just ends up buried in the forum at some point.
1232 2014-05-21 12:59:39 <cbeams> could consider adding a section, perhaps below what you see now at /developer-documentation, that links to some of these more esoteric or in-development, yet valuable resources.
1233 2014-05-21 13:00:08 <cbeams> "Additional Resources" or some such
1234 2014-05-21 13:00:34 <wumpus> yes that sounds like a good plan
1235 2014-05-21 13:00:39 <wumpus> so people know what is underway
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1237 2014-05-21 13:00:47 <cbeams> I'll mention to the Saivann & David.
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1239 2014-05-21 13:00:59 <cbeams> *to Saivann & David
1240 2014-05-21 13:01:02 <netg_> wumpus: thank you
1241 2014-05-21 13:01:10 <wumpus> and don't start writing their own but cooporate on current projects
1242 2014-05-21 13:01:18 <wumpus> cbeams: thanks
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1244 2014-05-21 13:02:07 <wumpus> I intend to update the 'Satoshi client operation' series on the forums to the new codebase at some point
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1253 2014-05-21 13:13:24 <ThomasV> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script says that OP_RETURN marks transaction as invalid. why?
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1258 2014-05-21 13:15:49 <cbeams> wumpus, kinlo: https://github.com/saivann/bitcoin.org/issues/131
1259 2014-05-21 13:16:50 <wumpus> ThomasV: that's what makes OP_RETURN outputs unspendable
1260 2014-05-21 13:18:29 <michagogo> 13:14:08 <warren> michagogo: if you want something simple to do, please handle qt-5.3.0 for bitcoin-0.10 windows <-- "handle"?
1261 2014-05-21 13:18:55 <ThomasV> wumpus: thanks
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1267 2014-05-21 13:21:28 <maaku> ThomasV: because of a bug where OP_RETURN was able to be used to claim any output
1268 2014-05-21 13:21:45 <maaku> the heavy-handed approach was taken of just making its presence invalidate the transaction
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1270 2014-05-21 13:21:51 <maaku> *script
1271 2014-05-21 13:21:58 <michagogo> Well
1272 2014-05-21 13:22:18 <michagogo> OP_RETURN was originally "return true"
1273 2014-05-21 13:22:23 <michagogo> It was changed to "return false"
1274 2014-05-21 13:22:31 <maaku> no, it was return top of stack iirc
1275 2014-05-21 13:22:37 <ThomasV> that must have been quite early
1276 2014-05-21 13:22:45 <michagogo> Ah
1277 2014-05-21 13:23:00 <michagogo> ThomasV: of course
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1279 2014-05-21 13:23:06 <michagogo> By definition, something like that had to have been early
1280 2014-05-21 13:23:18 <michagogo> Because fixing it was a hardfork
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1284 2014-05-21 13:24:00 <michagogo> Erm, actually, maybe not
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1286 2014-05-21 13:24:21 <michagogo> Hmm
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1291 2014-05-21 13:27:06 <wumpus> that must have been really early indeed, I don't remember it either
1292 2014-05-21 13:27:32 <wumpus> I always assumed it was on purpose this way
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1296 2014-05-21 13:27:52 <ThomasV> I'm thinking about a serialization format for unsigned or partially signed transactions, that would also include data needed for offline signing, such as bip32 derivations. Would it make sense to write that data in place of the input script?
1297 2014-05-21 13:28:05 <anton000> other than polling getrawmempool , any other way to get notfied of new seen transactions?
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1303 2014-05-21 13:29:57 <maaku> early 2010 i think, and soft-fork change
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1305 2014-05-21 13:30:44 <maaku> ThomasV: etotheipi (alan reiner) has basically done this and deployed it for Armory
1306 2014-05-21 13:30:56 <maaku> I asked him to document it as it is more generally useful..
1307 2014-05-21 13:31:17 <maaku> anton000: watching the logs
1308 2014-05-21 13:31:17 <ThomasV> maaku: do you know how he has done it?
1309 2014-05-21 13:31:27 <maaku> no, hence my request ;)
1310 2014-05-21 13:31:37 <maaku> armory is open source of course
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1312 2014-05-21 13:32:21 <GAit> we submitted the PR for the bip70 aka payment protocol protobuf extention, https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/65, keen on feedback :)
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1315 2014-05-21 13:32:44 <anton000> lol was looking for something much more elegant like... blocknotify lol
1316 2014-05-21 13:33:03 <maaku> he was demoing the user interface for it at the conference and I had to stop him --- "wait wait what are those strings you're copying around?"
1317 2014-05-21 13:33:10 <maaku> that was more interesting than what he was demoing lol
1318 2014-05-21 13:33:25 <ThomasV> maaku: I didn't meet him at the conf, but I met with other developers and we talked about a BIP for that
1319 2014-05-21 13:33:54 <GAit> do you think i should submit the PR to the dev mailing list or is this sufficient?
1320 2014-05-21 13:34:02 <ThomasV> I also have my own format for electrum
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1322 2014-05-21 13:35:04 <ThomasV> but I guess something universal would be good
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1324 2014-05-21 13:35:57 <maaku> yes and I have my own format for the coinjoin stuff i've been messing with
1325 2014-05-21 13:36:11 <wumpus> GAit: I think it makes sense to point to it on the mailing list, at least for non-trivial stuff
1326 2014-05-21 13:36:12 <maaku> and hearn has his own format for the lighthouse app he is working on
1327 2014-05-21 13:36:23 <maaku> a universal format would be very good
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1329 2014-05-21 13:37:49 <GAit> wumpus: i guess if i do it's probably best if I prepare some background context
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1331 2014-05-21 13:38:56 <ThomasV> the need to copy strings around is precisely the reason why I would like to see if we could extend the transaction serialization format, instead of messing with extra json fields
1332 2014-05-21 13:39:06 <wumpus> GAit: that's always good
1333 2014-05-21 13:39:22 <GAit> uh uh my first bitcoin-dev mailing list post
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1336 2014-05-21 13:40:11 <hearn> maaku: the format I use is just BIP70 wrapping the partial transactions. it’s nothing special
1337 2014-05-21 13:40:27 <hearn> i’m not sure we need a general format for “partial txns”. normally there would be some more app-specific logic on top, no?
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1339 2014-05-21 13:40:54 <dhill> anyone know what Dain is?
1340 2014-05-21 13:41:38 <jcrubino> is nlock time reinstated into the standard client protocol?
1341 2014-05-21 13:42:23 <ThomasV> hearn: the idea was (again) to provide inter-wallet compatibility, this time for tx cosigning
1342 2014-05-21 13:43:03 <GAit> hearn: when you get a chance could let me know what do you think about the extention PR? I remember you saying yesterday you were going to use it too  https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/65 so it would be good to hear your thoughts (i'll try to wrap it up and submit it to the dev mailing list for more general view as suggested by wumpus)
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1345 2014-05-21 13:45:31 <hearn> GAit: hmm I don’t see your mail?
1346 2014-05-21 13:45:35 <hearn> oh ok
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1350 2014-05-21 13:46:19 <hearn> GAit: yeah i just looked now. I think we may need to work on the process for BIP70 extensions a bit. like, it should be a new BIP, but then we probably should have a “living document” that accumulates all the BIPs into one coherent proto definition. i’m not sure we should use the extends mechanism in protobufs, even though it’s tempting
1351 2014-05-21 13:46:22 <maaku> hearn: you are currently not doing anything requiring a special format, but you could benefit (e.g. by having co-signed pledges)
1352 2014-05-21 13:46:50 <GAit> hearn: that's what gavin suggested yesterday. I was going to originally use the memo field and overload it with some encoded data
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1354 2014-05-21 13:47:08 <hearn> GAit: extending the protocol with new fields is the right way to go! the only question is which files they go in :)
1355 2014-05-21 13:47:16 <jcrubino> hearn:  nlock time...   I read a btc stack exchange post of yours from 2011 saying nlock time is not part of the standard protocol, any changes?
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1357 2014-05-21 13:47:43 <hearn> jcrubino: yes it works. the meaning changed somewhat but it still works
1358 2014-05-21 13:48:05 <GAit> jcrubino: it works and it is used by some services
1359 2014-05-21 13:48:08 <maaku> jcrubino: nlocktime has always worked
1360 2014-05-21 13:48:25 <hearn> GAit: it seems under specified. e.g. this “domain -> key” mapping business. why not just reuse certs like elsewhere? otherwise if the instant-confirmation-provider wants to ever change their keys, they have to track down everyone using them. no change of this ever working!
1361 2014-05-21 13:48:29 <jcrubino> thanks
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1363 2014-05-21 13:49:22 <hearn> GAit: Also I think it’s not correct to sign the Payment message. Just sign the tx bytes. Because otherwise the user has to provide you with the memo they’re submitting and any other detail, even though it’s only really the txins that you’re attesting to
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1368 2014-05-21 13:50:05 <GAit> hearn: using x509 complicates things, we actually discussed that a few hours ago in the chan. I was of the impression that cert revoking doesn't really work well anyway and that this maybe simpler to implement, afterall the people requesting it need to know you in advance and can find that over https or offline
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1371 2014-05-21 13:50:53 <GAit> hearn: i thought of that but i also felt it could be useful to sign the refund address
1372 2014-05-21 13:51:05 <GAit> but originally i was going to sign the txid
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1374 2014-05-21 13:51:11 <hearn> GAit: so I think …. separate BIP that embeds the new fields into BIP70, gives a rationale for them, etc like a “real” BIP would and then we can create a new page that just has the unified proto definition. also i’d suggest just picking the next available tag numbers rather than starting from 1000
1375 2014-05-21 13:51:29 <hearn> GAit: what does signing the refund address solve?
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1377 2014-05-21 13:52:29 <GAit> it doesn't solve anything perhaps, sounds like it should go
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1383 2014-05-21 13:58:26 <GAit> hearn: thanks for the feedback. Not sure about the starting point, the BIP cleaerly says extenstions should be in that page starting from 1000 althogh i understand it is still a draft. I'm happy to adopt any updated process. In the meantime I'll update the spec based on the feedback on what to sign as i think you are right
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1414 2014-05-21 14:18:42 <hearn> GAit: sorry, went for lunch :)
1415 2014-05-21 14:18:51 <hearn> GAit: let’s discuss the proposal further on the mailing list
1416 2014-05-21 14:19:38 <GAit> no worries, we submitted an update to it to fix some of the things you already mentioned
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1418 2014-05-21 14:20:26 <GAit> do you think the context on github is enough for the mailing list? i posted a reply to schildbach which explains it a bit
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1420 2014-05-21 14:21:47 <hearn> all context should be in the BIP so future readers can benefit
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1428 2014-05-21 14:23:16 <GAit> hearn: BIP70 states it should not be a separate BIP but it should be a PR to the ext page
1429 2014-05-21 14:23:45 <GAit> or you mean a referenced BIP for the whole multisig greenaddress out of band ?
1430 2014-05-21 14:24:03 <hearn> yeah. it’s probably wrong :) i think that process works OK for private extensions and the like but we could do better for real public extensions
1431 2014-05-21 14:24:09 <hearn> the purpose of the page is just to stop people accidentally colliding
1432 2014-05-21 14:24:33 <sipa> i dislike encouraging modifying BIPs
1433 2014-05-21 14:24:41 <sipa> BIPs exist to assign a unique identifier to an idea
1434 2014-05-21 14:25:02 <sipa> if we're going to continually update things, you'll need "BIP70 as of april 2014" or something
1435 2014-05-21 14:25:17 <maaku> GAit: depends on what you are doing. For Freicoin I am adding a "reference height" field as a BIP 70 extension. I doubt the bitcoin community cares about that
1436 2014-05-21 14:25:37 <maaku> But if it is something of general interest to bitcoin developerrs, write a bip
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1438 2014-05-21 14:25:52 <maaku> Actually, write a post to the mailing list, get feedback, then write a bip
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1442 2014-05-21 14:26:36 <GAit> i think the BIP is a much longer thing than this extention, which we are implementing for things like lamassu integration for btc to cash
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1444 2014-05-21 14:26:58 <GAit> that is not to say there shouldn't be a BIP about it
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1447 2014-05-21 14:28:13 <GAit> I'll prepare somehting and submit the general idea to the mailing list, in terms of process perhaps it can be updates to i don't go blind on this one
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1449 2014-05-21 14:28:25 <GAit> s/updates/updated
1450 2014-05-21 14:28:39 <hearn> sure. i’m writing some feedback now
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1547 2014-05-21 15:58:33 <skinnkavaj> So gavin wants to increase block size
1548 2014-05-21 15:58:39 <skinnkavaj> When is this going to happen?
1549 2014-05-21 15:58:48 <skinnkavaj> Sooner the better I guess..
1550 2014-05-21 15:59:50 <michagogo> skinnkavaj: not in the immediate future
1551 2014-05-21 16:00:06 <michagogo> It would need to be seriously widely discussed
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1553 2014-05-21 16:00:30 <michagogo> And eventually scheduled probably months and months on advance, if it were to happen
1554 2014-05-21 16:00:36 <michagogo> In*
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1561 2014-05-21 16:06:14 <michagogo> (And while we were hardforking we would presumably also make other changes)
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1566 2014-05-21 16:07:26 <chichov> hm, how would 0xFD (253) be encoded in VarInt?
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1568 2014-05-21 16:08:10 <sipa> 0xFD 0xFD 0x00
1569 2014-05-21 16:08:23 <chichov> okay, already suspected that
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1571 2014-05-21 16:08:54 <chichov> little-endian notation for the uint16_t?
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1575 2014-05-21 16:09:21 <sipa> yes, everything in bitcoin is little-endian (except for some cryptographic stuff, which it considers at byte arrays)
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1578 2014-05-21 16:11:01 <Jouke> chichov: are you the one that posted the bitcoin summary on bitcoin-development?
1579 2014-05-21 16:11:09 <chichov> Jouke: yep
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1581 2014-05-21 16:11:18 <chichov> working out the VarInt ranges correctly now
1582 2014-05-21 16:11:46 <Jouke> I was mentioning compressed keys as the address-creation for addresses of compressed keys is slightly different.
1583 2014-05-21 16:11:52 <Jouke> But it was just a sugestion.
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1590 2014-05-21 16:13:50 <michagogo> ;;bc,wiki varint
1591 2014-05-21 16:13:51 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification | Common standards. Hashes. Usually, when a hash is computed within bitcoin, it is computed twice. Most of the time SHA-256 hashes are used, however ...
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1593 2014-05-21 16:14:48 <chichov> maybe I miss what you mean, but bitcoin addresses are created from an uncompressed key
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1596 2014-05-21 16:15:38 <chichov> see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_Bitcoin_addresses
1597 2014-05-21 16:16:15 <chichov> unless you mean a compressed pubkey as a payment destination, then you can use both compressed and uncompressed public keys
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1602 2014-05-21 16:18:03 <michagogo> Why doesn't varint have a 1-byte variant?
1603 2014-05-21 16:18:12 <chichov> michagogo: it does?
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1606 2014-05-21 16:18:31 <michagogo> No, I mean a byte that says "use one byte"
1607 2014-05-21 16:18:40 <jcorgan> chichov: while addresses generated from uncompressed public keys are of course valid and still used, compressed keys are encouraged, as they take up less space in the blockchain. AFAIK, bitcoin core only generates new compressed keys, for example
1608 2014-05-21 16:18:42 <chichov> for values between 0 and 252 you simply use uint_8
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1611 2014-05-21 16:19:36 <jcorgan> that link, btw, is very outdated
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1613 2014-05-21 16:19:40 <michagogo> I guess having a byte that said "use the next byte" would only be relevant to 5 values
1614 2014-05-21 16:19:45 <chichov> jcorgan: do you have a reference for that?
1615 2014-05-21 16:19:53 <jcorgan> for which
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1617 2014-05-21 16:20:01 <chichov> the compressed keys use
1618 2014-05-21 16:20:39 <jcorgan> quick google: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3059/what-is-a-compressed-bitcoin-key
1619 2014-05-21 16:20:43 <chichov> I think it's odd that length is an argument, as a bitcoin address takes 20 bytes and a compressed pubkey 33 bytes
1620 2014-05-21 16:21:00 <jcorgan> when you spend the bitcoin, you have to put the pubkey in the scriptSig
1621 2014-05-21 16:21:12 <Jouke> the sigscript provides de pubkey as well
1622 2014-05-21 16:21:13 <jcorgan> that would be either the 33 byte compressed or 65 byte uncompressed
1623 2014-05-21 16:21:20 <chichov> oh, true
1624 2014-05-21 16:21:31 <chichov> so you save these 20 bytes overall
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1626 2014-05-21 16:21:49 <chichov> and the 32 bytes from the compression
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1628 2014-05-21 16:22:25 <Jouke> A public key as a payment destination is mostly formed as a bitcoin adres, to use a compressed key as a payment destination, you need a very slightly different bitcoin adres as you would have used in a normal bitcoin adres.
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1631 2014-05-21 16:24:18 <michagogo> Jouke: not quite
1632 2014-05-21 16:24:28 <Jouke> Am I remembering things wrong?
1633 2014-05-21 16:24:34 <michagogo> The address is indistinguishable
1634 2014-05-21 16:24:50 <michagogo> The pubkey that you hash to get the address is either 33 or 65 bytes
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1636 2014-05-21 16:25:21 <chichov> Jouke: take a look at the pay-to-pubkey and the pay-to-pubkeyhash in my protocol spec
1637 2014-05-21 16:25:22 <jcorgan> the scriptPubkey always uses the base58check encoded version of the HASH160 of the pubkey.  That hash and address is different if the starting pubkey is compressed or uncompressed.
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1639 2014-05-21 16:26:01 <Jouke> But to form an address you need to append a version by to the public key doesn't it?
1640 2014-05-21 16:26:02 <chichov> maybe that will clear things up
1641 2014-05-21 16:26:13 <Jouke> chichov: this is not script-related.
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1643 2014-05-21 16:26:41 <jcorgan> uncompressed: 0x80 + 32 bytes
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1645 2014-05-21 16:27:46 <jcorgan> explained here, ugly link:
1646 2014-05-21 16:27:48 <jcorgan> http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/thread/CAPg+sBhDFCjAn1tRRQhaudtqwsh4vcVbxzm+AA2OuFxN71fwUA@mail.gmail.com/
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1648 2014-05-21 16:28:21 <jcorgan> ack, no
1649 2014-05-21 16:28:30 <jcorgan> that's wallet import format,
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1654 2014-05-21 16:36:32 <jcorgan> the uncompressed form of the pubkey is 0x04 + 64 bytes pubkey (x,y)
1655 2014-05-21 16:36:44 <jcorgan> that is what you see on the page you linked
1656 2014-05-21 16:37:02 <jcorgan> the compressed form of the same pubkey is 0x03 (or 0x02) + 32 bytes pubkey X only
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1660 2014-05-21 16:37:48 <maaku> michagogo: we would *hopefully* make other hard-fork changes at that time
1661 2014-05-21 16:37:57 <maaku> imho we should be starting on that now if it is to be ready in time
1662 2014-05-21 16:38:15 <jcorgan> the choice of prefix depends on the last bit of the Y value
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1664 2014-05-21 16:38:58 <Jouke> jcorgan: thanks for clearing that up, I was really questioning myself :P
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1675 2014-05-21 16:49:19 <waxwing> in the gitian build process, do you embed the git commit hash into the binaries?
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1680 2014-05-21 16:57:53 <coryfields> no, the regular build process does that
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1682 2014-05-21 16:58:45 <waxwing> and the gitian doesn't?
1683 2014-05-21 16:59:21 <coryfields> gitian incorporates the regular build process
1684 2014-05-21 16:59:42 <coryfields> the hash is present in gitian-compiled binaries, yes. but it's nothing gitian-specific
1685 2014-05-21 16:59:46 <waxwing> ok, thanks.
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1778 2014-05-21 18:17:43 <stephenreed> I am using NetBeans to perform development on bitcoin core. In main.h I get CCoinsDB as an unresolved forward declaration. I suppose that this is cruft, as the project builds OK.
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1780 2014-05-21 18:20:44 <sipa> unresolved, or unused?
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1797 2014-05-21 18:28:46 <stephenreed> It only appears in main.h according to a grep of the source tree.
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1799 2014-05-21 18:31:09 <sipa> heh, it may be a typo
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1801 2014-05-21 18:31:16 <sipa> it should be CCoinsViewDB
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1807 2014-05-21 18:38:59 <stephenreed> sipa: the build is OK so far with that change. I am new to this. I will run the regression tests and get back to you.
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1873 2014-05-21 19:31:55 <wumpus> there's indeed a forward declaration for CCoinsDB in main.h, must be a leftover
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1875 2014-05-21 19:33:59 <sipa> i doubt such a class ever existed
1876 2014-05-21 19:34:14 <gmaxwell> rebroad arguing that else { if(){} } is the same as else if. :(
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1880 2014-05-21 19:39:23 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I already closed that pull once, he doesn't learn :(
1881 2014-05-21 19:41:36 <wumpus> back then my point was that we don't have time for 'code style' pulls that are controversial, they either just fix identation or something is wrong, seemingly he sees that as an invite to try the same again
1882 2014-05-21 19:42:12 <wumpus> along with his zillions of pull that change one line of logging or so, it almost seems like a DOS attack :p
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1889 2014-05-21 19:46:08 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I think he's trying to farm the small tips people give people who make commits. :(
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1894 2014-05-21 19:48:10 <wumpus> ugh
1895 2014-05-21 19:49:35 <Jouke> >_<
1896 2014-05-21 19:50:09 <Ry4an> "easy" way to buy prestiege I guess.  WHo knows maybe someone will use the commit history to distribute wealth someday, like redhat did w/ the LKML in 1999.
1897 2014-05-21 19:51:28 btcxpert has joined
1898 2014-05-21 19:51:44 <netg_> or he is going to release a book on good coding practice ;)
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1921 2014-05-21 20:25:19 <maaku> Ry4an: people already are distributing wealth via automated commit tips
1922 2014-05-21 20:25:24 <maaku> which has got to stop for this very reason
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1924 2014-05-21 20:26:23 <helo> gold rush!
1925 2014-05-21 20:26:52 <helo> (more like pitchfork witch hunt time...)
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1936 2014-05-21 20:38:50 <R0b0t1> Bitcoin uses TCP?
1937 2014-05-21 20:39:07 jaekwon has joined
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1939 2014-05-21 20:39:20 <Diablo-D3> no, it uses magic.
1940 2014-05-21 20:39:33 mrkent2 has joined
1941 2014-05-21 20:39:53 <R0b0t1> It was a serious question. I am checking the validity information I found in the FAQ.
1942 2014-05-21 20:40:31 <Diablo-D3> yeah its tcp
1943 2014-05-21 20:40:38 <R0b0t1> It also looks like it from the code, but maybe there's a curveball.
1944 2014-05-21 20:40:40 <R0b0t1> Great. Okay.
1945 2014-05-21 20:41:06 brson has joined
1946 2014-05-21 20:41:22 <netg_> All communications are done over TCP.
1947 2014-05-21 20:41:30 <R0b0t1> Were the parties who suggested https://bitcoin.org/en/alert/2012-02-18-protocol-change aware that TCP guarantees data integrity?
1948 2014-05-21 20:43:33 <netg_> Wat?
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1955 2014-05-21 20:47:48 <maaku> R0b0t1: I think you have a different definition of "guarantees" than I do
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1958 2014-05-21 20:52:31 <posita> I might be confused on this, but I think I saw a block on testnet where my local bitcoind thought it was almost 30 minutes in the future. My local machine date time is (as far as I can tell) accurate within a few seconds.
1959 2014-05-21 20:52:40 <posita> This happened about an hour ago.
1960 2014-05-21 20:52:58 <posita> This might be my own error, but I haven't seen it before or since. Is there any reason why this might happen?
1961 2014-05-21 20:53:17 <maaku> posita: totally normal
1962 2014-05-21 20:53:43 <ProfMac> Does the reference client use NTP to tell time?
1963 2014-05-21 20:54:02 <posita> Really? That is some *FAST* computation! I've heard of quantum computing, but wow…
1964 2014-05-21 20:54:11 <posita> :-)
1965 2014-05-21 20:54:44 <posita> So block time is arbitrary? Why have it all?
1966 2014-05-21 20:54:49 <posita> (Just curious.)
1967 2014-05-21 20:55:35 <netg_> because no better solution is known
1968 2014-05-21 20:56:00 <harding> posita: http://bitcoindev.us.to/en/developer-reference#term-block-time
1969 2014-05-21 20:56:10 <maaku> ProfMac: no
1970 2014-05-21 20:56:24 <posita> Perhaps, but a similar problem is (sort of) addressed by transaction lock time...
1971 2014-05-21 20:56:48 <posita> Ah…I see the same approach is used for block time, but the tolerances are sloppier.
1972 2014-05-21 20:56:52 <maaku> posita: because the block chain itself is the mechanism for constructing global consensus on time and ordering
1973 2014-05-21 20:57:22 <posita> Well, ordering is determined by the parent block, no?
1974 2014-05-21 20:57:31 <maaku> yes?
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1976 2014-05-21 20:57:48 <maaku> i didn't say nTime was used for that
1977 2014-05-21 20:57:54 <posita> Sorry. I misunderstood.
1978 2014-05-21 20:58:05 <maaku> the block chain is used for establishing two things: order of transactions, and (approximate) time of transactions
1979 2014-05-21 20:58:14 <posita> I think I get it. I just didn't realize there was such a wide tolerance. :-)
1980 2014-05-21 20:58:28 <maaku> there has to be
1981 2014-05-21 20:58:28 <posita> (Because I didn't RTFM when it came to block time.)
1982 2014-05-21 20:58:42 <maaku> because there's absolutely no trust free way to know what time it is
1983 2014-05-21 20:59:06 <netg_> which is a pretty obvious answer :)
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1985 2014-05-21 20:59:29 <posita> Right. I understand consensus is not totally trust free.
1986 2014-05-21 21:00:00 <maaku> consensus *is* trust free
1987 2014-05-21 21:00:00 <posita> I'm not saying time has to be precise. I'm just surprised at the current precision on the consensus standard. :-)
1988 2014-05-21 21:00:15 <maaku> in order to make it trust free, no time sources are used
1989 2014-05-21 21:00:19 <maaku> hence the huge tolerances
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1991 2014-05-21 21:00:52 <posita> Sorry…I'm not doing a good job of explaining myself. I accept the explanation given.
1992 2014-05-21 21:01:01 <posita> I'm not arguing.
1993 2014-05-21 21:01:09 <michagogo> posita: these are the rules for timestamps:
1994 2014-05-21 21:01:18 <michagogo> 1. not more than 2 hours in the future
1995 2014-05-21 21:01:34 <michagogo> 2. not before the median timestamp of the last 11 blocks
1996 2014-05-21 21:02:44 <posita> michagogo: Understood. I read harding's link.
1997 2014-05-21 21:02:51 R0b0t1 has left ("Leaving")
1998 2014-05-21 21:03:11 <shadowbroker> anyone using bitcoinjs-lib for nodejs?
1999 2014-05-21 21:03:21 <shadowbroker> their readme example code doesnt work for me :(
2000 2014-05-21 21:04:49 <shadowbroker> strange. it seems their npm package is waaay out of date?
2001 2014-05-21 21:05:09 <netg_> what i can tell you is bitcoinjs-lib isnt broken
2002 2014-05-21 21:05:17 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2003 2014-05-21 21:05:22 <netg_> many project use bitcoinjs-lib and they work
2004 2014-05-21 21:05:46 phoenix53 has quit (Quit: phoenix53)
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2006 2014-05-21 21:06:04 <shadowbroker> ya im looking at the code
2007 2014-05-21 21:06:12 <netg_> shadowbroker: you try orginal or vbuterins fork?
2008 2014-05-21 21:06:15 <shadowbroker> the master should work, but they dont recommend that for production
2009 2014-05-21 21:06:31 <shadowbroker> original i think. bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib
2010 2014-05-21 21:06:40 phoenix53 has joined
2011 2014-05-21 21:06:59 <netg_> maybe check https://github.com/vbuterin/bitcoinjs-lib
2012 2014-05-21 21:07:04 <netg_> many projects use this one
2013 2014-05-21 21:07:06 <netg_> i dont know why
2014 2014-05-21 21:07:18 hexagon53 has joined
2015 2014-05-21 21:07:39 <shadowbroker> ya i dont get that. im confused by seeing all of these forks for apparently no reason
2016 2014-05-21 21:07:42 <shadowbroker> so im using the original
2017 2014-05-21 21:07:49 <shadowbroker> the issue is that npm apparently hasnt updated
2018 2014-05-21 21:07:51 <shadowbroker> i just checked
2019 2014-05-21 21:07:54 <shadowbroker> i have version 1.3
2020 2014-05-21 21:07:59 <shadowbroker> but i should be using 2.0
2021 2014-05-21 21:08:09 <shadowbroker> so i'll have to pull it myself
2022 2014-05-21 21:08:27 beachandbytes has joined
2023 2014-05-21 21:08:33 <shadowbroker> or get in contact with whoever can push it :P
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2029 2014-05-21 21:14:06 <posita> Unless I'm misreading the code, IsFinalTx() looks to the time of the most recently mined block to know whether a transaction with a non-zero nLockTime is final: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/8cd900711c0396ac3a96ffd40f43f0e9ec76fadb/src/main.cpp#L561
2030 2014-05-21 21:14:09 <posita> Is that accurate?
2031 2014-05-21 21:14:31 <posita> So the same tolerances would apply to nLockTime > LOCKTIME_THRESHOLD transactions?
2032 2014-05-21 21:14:41 <posita> (Same tolerances on block time acceptance.)
2033 2014-05-21 21:15:16 skinnkavaj has joined
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2035 2014-05-21 21:15:44 <posita> And I think I remember reading something somewhere (although I can't find it again) that transactions that are not final are considered nonstandard, and are not accepted into the mempool, correct?
2036 2014-05-21 21:15:53 <posita> (I should probably be asking this on #bitcoin.)
2037 2014-05-21 21:16:02 <maaku> #bitcoin
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2039 2014-05-21 21:16:11 <posita> Cool. Thanks.
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