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53 2014-05-26 01:28:41 <brandond> Anyone know the technical reason why we store blkXXXXX.dat files in a network format and then keep a LevelDB to index the individual block locations within? I understand the need to index the transactions within the blocks (which is also done in the LevelDB).
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61 2014-05-26 01:35:57 <brandondahler> Anyone know the technical reason why we store blkXXXXX.dat files in a network format and then keep a LevelDB to index the individual block locations within? I understand the need to index the transactions within the blocks (which is also done in the LevelDB). [Not sure if this sent a few minutes ago because I was not registered.]
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64 2014-05-26 01:38:11 <scottansan> I suppose the leveldb is just for indexing and caching?
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66 2014-05-26 01:40:00 <brandondahler> It indexes location of the block inside blkXXXXX.dat files and what block transactions are located within, if I remember from the code I looked at.
67 2014-05-26 01:43:25 <scottansan> I guess that the requirement to perform lookups on transactions was not intended to be solved as part of the wire format
68 2014-05-26 01:44:54 <scottansan> but if the leveldb stores offsets then its fast enough to seek the .dat file and read the data into memory... thereby saving space
69 2014-05-26 01:44:57 <scottansan> something like that?
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73 2014-05-26 01:47:38 <brandondahler> I understand that, but I am considering implications behind flipping the storage from network, order-recieved files to a folder-file structure of storing the blocks in a meaningful way.
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79 2014-05-26 01:55:59 <harding> brandondahler: creating separate files for 200,000+ blocks will use up a lot of inodes on Unix-like filesystems. That's probably not a problem as long as the average block size stays significantly larger than the typical size-to-inode ratio used by modern *nixes.
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99 2014-05-26 02:27:29 <brandondahler> harding: considered that, storing 1:1 blocks to files would be inefficient file-wise, but clustering them in chain order (explicit instead of implicit as it is now) or by hash?
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103 2014-05-26 02:36:56 <harding> brandondahler: that seems potentially fragile and resource intensive to rewrite files if you switch chains during/after a fork.
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106 2014-05-26 02:41:42 <harding> For current mainnet block sizes, one file per block is fine, and I don't mean to imply otherwise. Only for testnet or regtests would you be majorly wasting inodes and maybe directory overhead.
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113 2014-05-26 02:49:24 <brandondahler> how are forks handled now?
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118 2014-05-26 03:03:52 <justanotheruser> brandondahler: with reorgs?
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127 2014-05-26 03:18:18 <brandondahler> justanotheruser: i mean in the blk files, are the forked blocks left in our blk files forever or are the automatically pruned in some way
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129 2014-05-26 03:19:37 <justanotheruser> brandondahler: I'm not 100% sure, but I think they're there forever. I would wait for someone else to answer though.
130 2014-05-26 03:19:37 <fun> :)
131 2014-05-26 03:19:48 <jcorgan> they are there forever
132 2014-05-26 03:20:01 <fun> when someone solved the block what are the other nodes checking for, before accepting it?
133 2014-05-26 03:20:14 <jcorgan> the blockchain files are an append only data structure
134 2014-05-26 03:20:36 <jcorgan> fun: there is a long list of things that are checked by nodes, there is a wiki page on it
135 2014-05-26 03:20:53 <fun> jcorgan: would u have a link to it?
136 2014-05-26 03:21:07 <jcorgan> not off the top of my head, but you could google it
137 2014-05-26 03:21:20 <brandondahler> i sort of figured that, do nodes distribute the forked (orphaned?) blocks anyway?
138 2014-05-26 03:22:12 <jcorgan> not sure what you are asking
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140 2014-05-26 03:25:09 <brandondahler> So a block is solved twice, causing a fork. Some nodes get each one (A and B), eventually the next is solved on A, making B the orphan (i understand it is not as straightforward). After all of this, someone new to bitcoin starts syncing their blockchain. Would this new person be guarenteed to recieve block B or not?
141 2014-05-26 03:26:16 <fun> its longest chain wins
142 2014-05-26 03:26:20 <jcorgan> it's unlikely they'd get B, and if they did, when they received A elsewhere their node would orphan B in the same way the other's did
143 2014-05-26 03:27:40 <jcorgan> a new node coming up will not get the hisorical forks
144 2014-05-26 03:27:42 <brandondahler> so part of the change I'm thinking of would aim to make the blocks recieved and the indexes upon those blocks stateless -- everyone (eventually) has the exact same state
145 2014-05-26 03:28:00 <andytoshi> :D 2014-05-26 03:24:39 receive version message: bitcoinrust v0.1: version 70001, blocks=0, us=127.0.0.1:36128, them=127.0.0.1:15301, peer=127.0.0.1:50491
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161 2014-05-26 03:28:31 <andytoshi> (all it does is send version messages, but it's a start)
162 2014-05-26 03:28:47 <jcorgan> everyone does converge on the same state in terms of valid blocks and transactions and their order
163 2014-05-26 03:29:20 <jcorgan> their blockchain files may have differences, but their indexes won't have any entries pointing to those blocks
164 2014-05-26 03:30:08 <fun> jcorgan: and how is merge mining works, how come btc solution can also be solution on coin b?
165 2014-05-26 03:30:17 <fun> since they have diff target i think
166 2014-05-26 03:30:25 <fun> like btc and devcoin for example
167 2014-05-26 03:30:35 <fun> or they would have same target?
168 2014-05-26 03:30:44 <fun> nope unless all btc miners merge mine
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170 2014-05-26 03:32:13 <jcorgan> the very first goodle hit for "merge mining" is a Stack Exchange question with an excellent answer to your question
171 2014-05-26 03:32:18 <jcorgan> *google
172 2014-05-26 03:32:27 <fun> oki
173 2014-05-26 03:33:23 <jcorgan> and the bitcoin wiki has a more formal specification
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186 2014-05-26 03:50:39 <jcrubino> andytoshi: you wrote bitcoinrust ???
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188 2014-05-26 03:51:06 <SubCreative> Anyone know if the keys stored in alert.cpp are pubkeys or how they are generated?
189 2014-05-26 03:51:11 <SubCreative> it's simply an ecdsa key right?
190 2014-05-26 03:51:24 <gmaxwell> it's just an ECDSA key.
191 2014-05-26 03:51:57 <andytoshi> jcrubino: i'm working on a rust SPV wallet so that i have a base to bolt -wizards projects onto
192 2014-05-26 03:52:25 <SubCreative> so are they pubkey's of gavin/satoshi/theymos?
193 2014-05-26 03:52:33 <SubCreative> bitcoin address pubkey?
194 2014-05-26 03:52:53 <jcrubino> I am impressed that 1) a mathematician is learning networking stacks 2) your finding the time
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201 2014-05-26 04:08:20 <andytoshi> jcrubino: i'm a first-year phd student in summer, i have no deadlines. and for now at least i'm coding from the protocol spec, i can do it while my brain is too tired to read :)
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355 2014-05-26 09:41:10 <GAit> sipa: is there any bug/issue on github for bip0062?
356 2014-05-26 09:41:53 <GAit> (i couldn't find one but perhaps my search fu is weak)
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360 2014-05-26 09:48:02 <sipa> nope, no implementation yet
361 2014-05-26 09:48:18 <sipa> we could create an issue for it
362 2014-05-26 09:48:53 <sipa> but i want to make some minor adjustments to bip62 before actually proposing it as a softfork
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364 2014-05-26 10:00:35 <GAit> sipa: we got someone at GreenAddress working on 4-7 right now, do you want to give us pointers as to what you would like done first?
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367 2014-05-26 10:03:13 <GAit> (4-7 as in the source of malleability)
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370 2014-05-26 10:12:41 <Luke-Jr> GAit: GreenAddress works on a full node implementation? O.o
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374 2014-05-26 10:13:22 <GAit> Luke-Jr: no, but can't it submit PR and help bitcoind? It won't be limited to malleability
375 2014-05-26 10:13:38 <Luke-Jr> of course
376 2014-05-26 10:13:43 <Luke-Jr> I was just curious âº
377 2014-05-26 10:14:21 <GAit> a very good friend of mine is helping gait (and bitcoind), one of the guys that contributed heavily to wine
378 2014-05-26 10:18:50 <GAit> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/7a0e84dd63ac98a92fd7aafd2d432f1da71eb8da fortunately the ./configure.ac never sets NDEBUG but arguablyy an error in and of itself, will skip reading the block if assertions are compiled out
379 2014-05-26 10:19:08 <Luke-Jr> GAit: there's a check somewhere
380 2014-05-26 10:19:15 <Luke-Jr> GAit: it will refuse to build if NDEBUG is defined
381 2014-05-26 10:20:52 <GAit> nothing quite like changing the meaning of well known standards :)
382 2014-05-26 10:24:16 <sipa> GAit: cool! contributions very welcome of course
383 2014-05-26 10:24:55 <sipa> i'd start by just adding checks inside the script execution code, guarded by sigcheck flags that are never enabled
384 2014-05-26 10:25:27 <GAit> so im wondering what is and isn't acceptable: e.g. a patch to fix all the catches by value to by ref and by non const ref to const ref ?
385 2014-05-26 10:25:40 <GAit> (was looking at rpc earlier)
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388 2014-05-26 10:27:31 <GAit> sipa: thank you for the pointer
389 2014-05-26 10:28:59 <GAit> sipa: I assume you mean adding a flag a-la script VERIFY STRICTENC
390 2014-05-26 10:29:06 <sipa> yep
391 2014-05-26 10:29:12 <GAit> kk
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393 2014-05-26 10:34:49 <gmaxwell> I guess its good that I also belt-and-suspendered forcing !NDEBUG when I went and fixed all those goofs before. :P
394 2014-05-26 10:35:49 <gmaxwell> It's not acceptable in our codebase to do that, that ought to be fixed. But at the same time it should be harmless since we won't build with NDEBUG. (well I hope, it's only a matter of time before some platform/compiler does something more clever there. :) )
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396 2014-05-26 10:38:01 <GAit> gmaxwell: agreed
397 2014-05-26 10:38:46 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: bool i = false; assert( (i = true) ); if (!i) die();
398 2014-05-26 10:38:47 <Luke-Jr> :P
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553 2014-05-26 14:21:33 <jgarzik> wumpus, gmaxwell: I was thinking that some of the RPCs could move to bitcoin-cli entirely, and removed from bitcoind. e.g. decoderawtransaction or createrawtransaction. Some "RPCs" do not interact with the network or the wallet.
554 2014-05-26 14:22:08 <sipa> that increases the (necessary) dependencies for bitcoin-cli very significanylu
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556 2014-05-26 14:22:20 <sipa> i'd rather see them move a common utility library :)
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558 2014-05-26 14:24:12 <sipa> and i don't like encouraging bitcoin-cli as more than a test tool for RPC
559 2014-05-26 14:25:05 <sipa> moving actual implementation code there means it becomes inaccessible for RPC users that use it as intended
560 2014-05-26 14:26:09 <GAit> i agree that bitcoin-cli being as thin as possible is good
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598 2014-05-26 15:25:18 <chichov> does the complete mining subsidy (currently 25BTC) has to be claimed?
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600 2014-05-26 15:25:50 <michagogo> No
601 2014-05-26 15:26:02 <michagogo> The coinbase can be less than the maximum
602 2014-05-26 15:26:26 <chichov> michagogo: so I can also just claim 20BTC from the mining subsidy and it'll be accepted?
603 2014-05-26 15:26:32 <michagogo> yes
604 2014-05-26 15:26:39 <chichov> same goes for the fees?
605 2014-05-26 15:27:13 <chichov> note: mining reward = mining subsidy (25BTC) + transaction fees in my lingo
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607 2014-05-26 15:29:26 <sipa> correct
608 2014-05-26 15:30:12 <harding> chichov: hmm. Sorry I gave you wrong info; I must've misread the code about this.
609 2014-05-26 15:30:18 <chichov> just asking because I got an email from a guy stating that the subsidy has to be claimed completely and the fees can be claimed arbitrarily
610 2014-05-26 15:30:27 <chichov> harding: speaking of the devil :)
611 2014-05-26 15:30:31 <harding> :-)
612 2014-05-26 15:31:05 <chichov> don't worry, I'm always double-checking everything
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614 2014-05-26 15:33:29 <chichov> too bad actually about that
615 2014-05-26 15:33:45 <chichov> then any miner can burn bitcoins once he finds the right block
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622 2014-05-26 15:40:50 <harding> chichov: yeah, but burning bitcoins isn't exactly hard. You can always send them to a script which looks spendable but isn't. Anyway, thanks again for all the work you put on the paper. We just added a link to it on bitcoin.org this morning: https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-documentation (near the bottom).
623 2014-05-26 15:41:27 <chichov> oh, that's cool!
624 2014-05-26 15:41:35 <michagogo> chichov: not exactly once he finds the right block
625 2014-05-26 15:41:45 <michagogo> He needs to be mining with the intention of doing that
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627 2014-05-26 15:42:15 <michagogo> But yes, it is very easy for anyone to burn bitcoins, not just miners
628 2014-05-26 15:42:15 <chichov> true, he needs to set block in advance
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630 2014-05-26 15:43:47 <chichov> harding: I'm also working now on a C++ Bitcoin API for the JSON-RPC communication
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632 2014-05-26 15:44:24 <chichov> I've seen one and inspected it, but not everything is implemented and it's a bit buggy
633 2014-05-26 15:45:01 <chichov> it does seem odd that C++, the language of bitcoin, hasn't been covered properly yet, unlike many others
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638 2014-05-26 16:04:34 <c4p> Sorry for posting here, but curious... is using the bitcoind client safe to use for commercial applications? I hear people keep saying it's reference and not production which makes me curious if it's stability or another issue to be aware of?
639 2014-05-26 16:05:17 <Luke-Jr> c4p: *Bitcoin* is not production, basically.
640 2014-05-26 16:05:31 <Luke-Jr> c4p: anyhow, support is in #bitcoin, not here
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644 2014-05-26 16:07:01 <c4p> ok, thanks Luke. will swap to #bitcoin
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702 2014-05-26 17:30:11 <cheako> Hello, I was just thinking that cron should be aware of new blocks. Is there a best practice for new block detection?
703 2014-05-26 17:30:32 Sub is now known as Zzz!~SubCreati@c-76-121-19-166.hsd1.wa.comcast.net|SubCreaative
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706 2014-05-26 17:33:07 <sipa> use -blocknotify instead of cron...
707 2014-05-26 17:33:12 ThomasV has joined
708 2014-05-26 17:33:26 <cheako> sipa: Not multi-user.
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723 2014-05-26 17:48:42 <Luke-Jr> cheako: it can be
724 2014-05-26 17:49:15 kmels has joined
725 2014-05-26 17:49:27 <Luke-Jr> -blocknotify 'sudo killall -USR1 bitcoin-block-notify-receiver'
726 2014-05-26 17:49:59 _Iriez is now known as Iriez
727 2014-05-26 17:50:11 <cheako> hmm.
728 2014-05-26 17:51:11 <cheako> Everyone has their fav hammer and any thing else just seems like the wrong tool for the job to them.
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730 2014-05-26 17:52:45 <cheako> Though, cron can be made to listen for arbitrary events on a fifo or socket and overall that would be a better addition to cron.
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741 2014-05-26 18:00:40 <lechuga_> is implementing a stealth address spv wallet impossible? seems so if i'm understanding the design properly
742 2014-05-26 18:01:41 <lechuga_> i guess it could give a trusted helper full node the scan key
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760 2014-05-26 18:14:39 <sipa> lechuga_: which means giving up your privacy to that node
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763 2014-05-26 18:16:24 <lechuga_> sipa: yeah i guess it has to be your own secured node
764 2014-05-26 18:17:34 <lechuga_> sipa: what's the name of your experimental block downloading optimization branch?
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772 2014-05-26 18:21:53 <gokudev> does bitcoin core support deterministic wallets?
773 2014-05-26 18:22:08 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
774 2014-05-26 18:22:15 <hearn> no gokudev
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776 2014-05-26 18:22:52 <hearn> lechuga_: right, stealth and spv don't really mix
777 2014-05-26 18:22:52 <sipa> lechuga_: a very old and insecure version: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commits/headersfirst
778 2014-05-26 18:23:04 <gokudev> hmm how about hd wallets?
779 2014-05-26 18:23:14 <gokudev> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki
780 2014-05-26 18:23:15 <sipa> gokudev: the d stands for deterministic
781 2014-05-26 18:23:15 <hearn> lechuga_: there is a thread on bitcoin-development where i talk about how to integrate with bip70 to try and fix it
782 2014-05-26 18:23:36 <lechuga_> hearn: interesting, integrate stealth w/bip70?
783 2014-05-26 18:23:38 <sipa> gokudev: so given that it doesn't have deterministic wallets, it certainly doesn't have hd wallets :)
784 2014-05-26 18:23:46 <sipa> hearn: i don't understand the purpose
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786 2014-05-26 18:23:52 <gokudev> sipa i know! there are hierarchical deterministic wallets
787 2014-05-26 18:23:58 <lechuga_> sipa: thx
788 2014-05-26 18:24:17 <sipa> hearn: if you're using bip70, you're communicating with the receiver... why do you need stealth addresses?
789 2014-05-26 18:24:26 AnoAnon has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
790 2014-05-26 18:24:50 <hearn> sipa: for the case when you're not communicating with the receiver (e.g. they are offline)
791 2014-05-26 18:25:00 <sipa> well then you can't use the payment protocol...
792 2014-05-26 18:25:18 <sipa> please don't make the same mistake as satoshi, by providing a backup option around a receiver being offline :)
793 2014-05-26 18:25:48 <gokudev> hmm so is somebody working on deterministic wallets in bitcoin core ?
794 2014-05-26 18:25:54 <sipa> i was
795 2014-05-26 18:25:59 <sipa> but i have too many other things to do
796 2014-05-26 18:26:11 <gokudev> crap
797 2014-05-26 18:26:27 <gokudev> ok does bitcoin core offer offline wallets like armory does ?
798 2014-05-26 18:26:31 <sipa> no
799 2014-05-26 18:26:34 <gokudev> lol
800 2014-05-26 18:26:35 <sipa> you don't have to use bitcoin core...
801 2014-05-26 18:26:39 <gokudev> im told it does offer offline wallets
802 2014-05-26 18:26:43 <sipa> it does not
803 2014-05-26 18:26:44 <hearn> sipa: the idea is, you should be able to. did you read the thread? the point is to have some server store the Payment message for when you come back online
804 2014-05-26 18:26:54 <sipa> you'll shoot yourself in the foot if you try to it for that
805 2014-05-26 18:27:02 <hearn> gokudev: Core has a very basic wallet implementation
806 2014-05-26 18:27:38 <gokudev> im building an freakin exchange and i need to decide to go the armory route or use bitcoin core
807 2014-05-26 18:27:53 <gokudev> the problem with armory is it only works with bitcoin and i want support altcoins
808 2014-05-26 18:28:04 <sipa> hearn: why do you need stealth addresses for that? have a known public key, let the payment server choose a random number to add to it, and store the result?
809 2014-05-26 18:28:04 <gokudev> armory require major work to support altcoins without even going into details
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813 2014-05-26 18:29:30 <sipa> or let the sender choose a random number - that doesn't require a roundtrip time, and is safer
814 2014-05-26 18:29:55 <hearn> sipa: that's almost what my proposal is. the sender picks the nonce and it's combined with the constant public key in the payment request, to produce the new public key via ecdh
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816 2014-05-26 18:30:14 <hearn> sipa: the payment server records the Payment message which contains the sender selected nonce. it's forwarded to the users wallet when they become available and download it.
817 2014-05-26 18:30:19 <sipa> oh sure
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819 2014-05-26 18:30:24 <sipa> ut that's not a stealth address
820 2014-05-26 18:30:53 <sipa> at least not the existing proposal with that name, which stores the nonce data inside the transaction
821 2014-05-26 18:31:08 <sipa> but if that is not what you mean by it, sure!
822 2014-05-26 18:31:09 <hearn> right. sorry. i was using the term "stealth address" to mean "that proposal where someone can publish a static piece of data and the senders pay to random addresses"
823 2014-05-26 18:31:23 <hearn> because that's how people are now learning about the idea, via this name
824 2014-05-26 18:31:29 <gokudev> sipa what is the alternative to not using bitcoin core
825 2014-05-26 18:31:36 <gokudev> armory is posing too much work
826 2014-05-26 18:31:41 <gokudev> maybe electrum ?
827 2014-05-26 18:31:41 * hearn was just wanting to point lechuga_ in the right direction rather than being fussy over naming
828 2014-05-26 18:31:47 <hearn> "ecdh in bip70" is not quite as catchy :)
829 2014-05-26 18:31:54 <lechuga_> got it just read the intro to the design on thread
830 2014-05-26 18:32:04 <hearn> gokudev: for running an exchange? bitstamp does use Core directly, actually. they just make regular wallet backups.
831 2014-05-26 18:32:51 <sipa> hearn: i like to keep the terminology separated: stealth addresses (the nonce-in-transaction proposal) are imho only useful for cases where the sender has an anonimity requirement... for almost every other case you're somehow communicating between sender and payment server anyway, and you get all the benefits from that (OOB messaging, ...)
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833 2014-05-26 18:33:08 <sipa> hearn: what you're proposal is basically just a means of delegating key generation in a safe way in BIP70
834 2014-05-26 18:33:32 <hearn> right
835 2014-05-26 18:33:38 <sipa> sorry, i should read your mails first :)
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837 2014-05-26 18:33:49 <hearn> it could equally be specified in the payment request, however, it would need to be added to the outer PaymentRequest message because otherwise the payment server would break the signature
838 2014-05-26 18:34:15 <hearn> sipa: btw is there any way to permanently adjust the size of the keypool? or do you have to manually use the keypoolresize rpc repeatedly
839 2014-05-26 18:34:26 <hearn> i thought there was an RPC to change the size
840 2014-05-26 18:34:51 <sipa> hearn: set keypoolsize=X in bitcoin.config :)
841 2014-05-26 18:35:00 <sipa> there is an ROPC to topup it once
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843 2014-05-26 18:36:52 <hearn> ah ha
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845 2014-05-26 18:37:44 <gokudev> sipa/hearn can the bitcoin core do offline signing of transactions like armory?
846 2014-05-26 18:37:54 <sipa> gokudev: if you do things very manually
847 2014-05-26 18:38:04 <sipa> gokudev: like create the entire transaction yourself
848 2014-05-26 18:38:17 <sipa> but the wallet implementation in bitcoin is not state of the art
849 2014-05-26 18:38:33 <hearn> gokudev: not really.
850 2014-05-26 18:38:34 stalled has joined
851 2014-05-26 18:38:43 <hearn> gokudev: you're looking for a cold wallet implementation, yes/
852 2014-05-26 18:39:31 <lechuga_> seems liek one danger with stealth-bip70 is only the relevant parties r going to make active requests for related payments so they leak identity info via HTTP and IP layers
853 2014-05-26 18:39:37 <gokudev> hearn yes i am looking for coldstorage/offline storage, i know i can set maxconnections=0
854 2014-05-26 18:39:41 <hearn> gokudev: right now IMHO there is no good tool for this. However it would be easy to make one, at least with bitcoinj.
855 2014-05-26 18:39:44 <lechuga_> related payments / payment requests
856 2014-05-26 18:40:22 <gokudev> i rather use bitcoin core, i can live with the basic bitcoin wallets, but i cant get around offline storage/cold stroage and watchonly wallets
857 2014-05-26 18:40:29 <hearn> lechuga_: bitcoinj has a bundled Tor client at least, and payment servers can use SSL. so it should be possible to scramble things quite effectively, if wanted.
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859 2014-05-26 18:41:12 <lechuga_> sure but then you're trusting other systems to maintain the same anonymity properties true stea;th addresses provide
860 2014-05-26 18:41:20 <hearn> gokudev: are you willing to pay for a solution?
861 2014-05-26 18:41:58 <gokudev> maybe how much will it cost?
862 2014-05-26 18:42:06 <hearn> lechuga_: against which adversaries? i don't think the current floodfill system provides much privacy against e.g. the NSA or GCHQ, if that's what you're thinking about. they can quite easily watch for the injection of a tx into the network and record the origin IP.
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864 2014-05-26 18:42:57 <gokudev> im looking for 2 things, offline wallets and watchonly wallets
865 2014-05-26 18:43:07 <lechuga_> that's fair i guess
866 2014-05-26 18:43:09 <hearn> gokudev: good question. depends on the exact requirements. however i know some other places have the same issue, with the cold wallet solutions available not being that great. so the cost could potentially be split. if you're interested in this idea, email hearn@vinumeris.com - it's a new company i created to solve problems like this
867 2014-05-26 18:43:23 <hearn> (where multiple bitcoin users/companies have infrastructure they need, but don't want to pay for all of it themselves)
868 2014-05-26 18:43:29 <sipa> gokudev: watchonly wallet support will probably be merged in bitcoin core in the near future
869 2014-05-26 18:43:44 <sipa> cold wallets are really not doably before wallets are deterministic
870 2014-05-26 18:43:50 <gokudev> sipa, im actually a dev testing the build as well :)
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872 2014-05-26 18:44:44 <hearn> lechuga_: "stealth addresses" as implemented are not quite as strong as you might imagine, given that the only real users of it today are DarkWallet and they have a almost entirely centralised model. if the DarkWallet private SSL key were to be obtained, the observer would be able to un-stealth all the addresses, is my understanding.
873 2014-05-26 18:45:12 <gokudev> cold wallet is just an offline system that has an airgap between an online system, it is completely offline
874 2014-05-26 18:45:25 <hearn> gokudev: I think an HD cold wallet system would not be too hard to build with the latest bitcoinj. it has nearly finished support for HD wallets.
875 2014-05-26 18:45:57 <hearn> gokudev: so putting a simple GUI or command line tool on that to create a transaction on the main "online" watching wallet, and then having the keys be in a cold wallet that sign the incomplete transaction, would be not very hard
876 2014-05-26 18:45:59 <gokudev> hmm
877 2014-05-26 18:46:45 <hearn> basically it means definining a file format to hold the unsigned transaction, then having the tool with the keys know how to decrypt those keys, load the unsigned tx, sign for them, and spit the newly finished tx back out to a new file where it can then be shipped back to the online wallet e.g. via USB key for broadcast
878 2014-05-26 18:48:03 <gokudev> yup that makes sense
879 2014-05-26 18:48:22 <gokudev> im a C# programmer actually but i can code in C++ too
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882 2014-05-26 18:48:48 <lechuga_> hearn: didn't realize. i thought they were shipping enduser software
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887 2014-05-26 18:50:10 <hearn> lechuga_: it's a chrome "app" that relies on a server they run, AFAIK. the server software is open source but it's sort of like electrum, it's basically a block explorer so is rather expensive to run one. it's probably not very hard for governments to penetrate: they managed to seize the Silk Road servers without DPR even noticing, for example.
888 2014-05-26 18:51:06 <hearn> of course, in fairness, currently SPV wallets don't set very garbled Bloom filters at all, so there the NSA doesn't even have to crack any servers. they can just slurp the filters off the wire.
889 2014-05-26 18:51:27 <hearn> i'm hoping someone will appear and help improve bitcoinj so it garbles the filters as much as possible. right now i'm too busy with HD to do that.
890 2014-05-26 18:51:37 <lechuga_> so the server must have the users' scan keys right?
891 2014-05-26 18:51:49 <hearn> that's my understanding. but you could as well ask them
892 2014-05-26 18:52:44 <lechuga_> this design seems directly opposed to their ideology
893 2014-05-26 18:52:58 <gokudev> hearn ok fair enough bitcoinj i can checkout, but what about watchonly wallets, does it implement them too ?
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895 2014-05-26 18:53:55 <hearn> gokudev: yes. the HD wallets support is currently on a branch, hdw-alpha. i'll be merging it into master in the coming 2-3 weeks i expect, just got a few more things to finish off (like figuring out the BIP44 stuff). on that branch Wallet has a static method that creates a watching wallet from an "account key" exported by another wallet (which is basically an xpub BIP32 key).
896 2014-05-26 18:54:12 <hearn> lechuga_: well ........
897 2014-05-26 18:54:25 <lechuga_> heh
898 2014-05-26 18:54:34 <hearn> lechuga_: their ideology is IMHO not really about decentralisation. they care more about anonymity/anarchism than decentralisation
899 2014-05-26 18:55:33 <hearn> i suspect the real reason they have this design though is that many years ago, amir assumed making SPV wallets perform well was impossible. their website for a long time (maybe still does) said something like "block chain servers are obviously the future so that's what we use"
900 2014-05-26 18:55:35 <gokudev> hearn wondering which is smarter way to go either wait for bitcoin core to finish up with their watchonly wallets and then bring in hd wallets from bitcoinj or maybe even get both functionality from bitcoinj!
901 2014-05-26 18:55:57 <hearn> gokudev: don't know! but the watchonly wallets in Core won't solve your cold wallet problem.
902 2014-05-26 18:56:33 <gokudev> hearn right because coldwallets and determistic wallets go hand in hand
903 2014-05-26 18:56:58 <lechuga_> ic
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905 2014-05-26 18:57:10 <hearn> lechuga_: ah yes. https://darkwallet.unsystem.net/old_index.html
906 2014-05-26 18:57:17 <hearn> lechuga_: How will you ensure privacy of blockchain queries?
907 2014-05-26 18:57:17 <hearn> New versions of ZeroMQ support encryption between endpoints. We can go further too, but this will require more research. What is clear however, is that blockchain servers are the future of usable Bitcoin wallets where the user owns their keys. We have to innovate around the reality.
908 2014-05-26 18:57:56 <hearn> i would rather disagree with their "reality" given the number of ordinary users who are successfully syncing from the P2P network without problems
909 2014-05-26 18:58:02 <hearn> but that's why it's designed the way it is
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911 2014-05-26 18:58:14 <hearn> gokudev: actually there's no particular reason that has to be the case
912 2014-05-26 18:58:23 <hearn> gokudev: you can have a cold wallet that has, say, 500 keys pre-generated, and then you just keep reusing them
913 2014-05-26 18:58:46 <gokudev> well the keys have to be generated in advance with the non deterministic wallets
914 2014-05-26 18:58:53 <gokudev> which means more trips to the coldstroage
915 2014-05-26 18:59:51 <hearn> hmm, no. it is only a privacy feature. when you set up the cold storage wallet, you just generate the 500 or 1000 keys or whatever. then you make the neutered watching wallet and copy it to your live machine so it can broadcast transactions and see inbound payments from the hot wallet.
916 2014-05-26 19:00:01 <phantomcircuit> hearn, the number of servers isn't growing linearly with the number of users though :P
917 2014-05-26 19:00:05 <hearn> the hot wallet knows the 1000 keys and just sends money to one of them whenever it gets too big
918 2014-05-26 19:00:52 <phantomcircuit> hearn, 1m keys
919 2014-05-26 19:00:53 <hearn> after a while you might end up sending money to keys more than once. but that's how most existing exchanges do it already, AFAIK.
920 2014-05-26 19:00:55 <phantomcircuit> forget about 1k
921 2014-05-26 19:00:56 <phantomcircuit> :P
922 2014-05-26 19:01:08 <lechuga_> their position confuses me i guess. i feel like a true anarchist would almost have to wholly adopt decentralization.
923 2014-05-26 19:01:24 <lechuga_> but maybe anarchism is a spectrum
924 2014-05-26 19:01:31 <lechuga_> we're all a little bit anarchaic
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929 2014-05-26 19:03:07 <hearn> lechuga_: principles don't always map easily to code. i'm sure they'd like decentralisation. but the only implementation of SPV+Bloom filtering that's got any real production usage is the one I wrote, and amir thinks I work for the CIA (because he's an idiot). so he'd prefer to use his own code and not use the P2P network rather than build on bitcoinj (and reimplementing it is a lot of work)
930 2014-05-26 19:03:39 <gokudev> hearn so keys can be resued as well ?
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932 2014-05-26 19:03:48 <lechuga_> lol
933 2014-05-26 19:03:53 <hearn> gokudev: of course keys can be reused! it's just not recommended.
934 2014-05-26 19:04:00 <hearn> gokudev: nothing in the protocol stops you doing it though
935 2014-05-26 19:04:30 <gokudev> hearn so that is where deterministic wallets come because they let you create any number of keys without having to worry about reusing them
936 2014-05-26 19:04:35 <hearn> gokudev: right
937 2014-05-26 19:04:40 <lechuga_> i bet deep down it's just java h8
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939 2014-05-26 19:04:52 <hearn> lechuga_: i'm sure it's lots of things. regardless, DW is what it is.
940 2014-05-26 19:05:19 <lechuga_> thx for all the info
941 2014-05-26 19:05:30 <hearn> and for all their hating on The Man, what it is, is a Chrome app that delegates all heavy lifting to a server they control. It gives you privacy, except from the DW operators.
942 2014-05-26 19:05:46 <hearn> so we'll see how it evolves over time
943 2014-05-26 19:05:57 <lechuga_> lol
944 2014-05-26 19:06:10 <lechuga_> from the DW operators and from Chrome
945 2014-05-26 19:06:23 <gokudev> hearn i need like a minimalistic implementation to get things going really, lets say i am looking for a coldstroage that works with the non deterministic wallets and want watch only wallets - thats it
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948 2014-05-26 19:07:11 <gokudev> and i wont be resuing the keys, just create new ones from hot wallet and then updating my cold storage periodically , that should work albiet lot of leg work to and from coldstorage?
949 2014-05-26 19:07:23 <hearn> gokudev: yes ok well like i said, if you're willing to pay (even if it's not much), email me and we'll see if we can get a bunch of operators to club together. i can write an app that does cold storage without needing Core on all the computers without much difficulty.
950 2014-05-26 19:09:42 <gokudev> uhm can it be general enough to work with altcoins too ?
951 2014-05-26 19:10:12 <hearn> some altcoins have bitcoinj forks. it'd work for them too. for instance dogecoin does.
952 2014-05-26 19:10:16 <hearn> but not all altcoins have that
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957 2014-05-26 19:17:59 <gokudev> carbon wallet seems to offer both deterministic wallets as well as coldstroage solution
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962 2014-05-26 19:20:59 <gokudev> does wallet care about the type of coins it holds? wallets only hold private keys.
963 2014-05-26 19:20:59 <hearn> gokudev: looks nice. though it's yet another web wallet
964 2014-05-26 19:22:24 <hearn> it's a frontend to blockchain.info, it seems
965 2014-05-26 19:23:30 <sipa> gokudev: of course... it needs to kbow how they can be spent
966 2014-05-26 19:23:38 <sipa> which can be arbitrarily complex
967 2014-05-26 19:24:13 <hearn> gokudev: most alt coins don't change the tx format. so they'd probably be compatible in the cold wallet sense. but it's risky and not general. some alt coins are more different than others
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973 2014-05-26 19:27:16 <sipa> in particular, the more interesting they are, the more different they are too usually :)
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976 2014-05-26 19:28:13 <gokudev> hearn it so sense as long as the tx format is the same as that of bitcoin and litecoin, i am able to store the keys in the same wallet
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979 2014-05-26 19:28:52 <gokudev> life would be easier if i could say BitCoin : ICoinTXType or LiteCoin : ICoinTxType
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982 2014-05-26 19:33:26 <gokudev> here is abetter explaination on hdwallets http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1n8yle/finally_someone_will_support_bip32_hierarchical/
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999 2014-05-26 19:50:04 <tcatm> Are there any known bugs that would cause Corruption: block checksum mismatch?
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1006 2014-05-26 19:58:11 <gokudev> https://github.com/NicolasDorier/NBitcoin
1007 2014-05-26 19:58:37 <gokudev> guys nicolas has gone and built hd wallets and also ported bitcoin in C#
1008 2014-05-26 19:58:42 <sipa> tcatm: crashed in the middle of IBD?
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1010 2014-05-26 19:59:08 <gokudev> watch only wallets are simply wallets with no private keys right ?
1011 2014-05-26 19:59:16 <gokudev> just public keys
1012 2014-05-26 19:59:17 <sipa> basically, yes
1013 2014-05-26 19:59:23 <sipa> any script even
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1015 2014-05-26 19:59:30 <sipa> you don't need the key
1016 2014-05-26 19:59:36 <tcatm> sipa: I've wiped the datadirectory after it happening for the first time. No software crash.
1017 2014-05-26 19:59:51 <sipa> what hardwaree?
1018 2014-05-26 19:59:53 <gokudev> so basically all i do is not import the private key in the wallet and just generate a receive address for the hd wallet and im done
1019 2014-05-26 20:00:10 <sipa> for hd wallets its a bit more complicated
1020 2014-05-26 20:00:24 <tcatm> Server with ECC RAM and checksummed filesystem (ZFS, no errors reported).
1021 2014-05-26 20:00:33 <sipa> as you can generate the pubkeys on the fly
1022 2014-05-26 20:00:40 <gokudev> well lets assume i only have 1 branch and one passphrase to generate receive only addresses
1023 2014-05-26 20:00:43 <sipa> tcatm: can you trry on not-ZFS?
1024 2014-05-26 20:00:56 <gokudev> oh i see
1025 2014-05-26 20:01:09 <sipa> gokudev: i would also stay away from reimplementation of the consensus code...
1026 2014-05-26 20:01:47 <tcatm> sipa: It's actually on ext4 running in a ZVOL.
1027 2014-05-26 20:01:50 <gokudev> because of possible bugs and untested nature ?
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1029 2014-05-26 20:02:59 <sipa> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/25254/why-dont-developers-switch-from-bitcoin-qt-to-a-cleaner-implementation/
1030 2014-05-26 20:03:19 <sipa> tcatm: can you try not running on a ZFS stack? :)
1031 2014-05-26 20:03:57 <tcatm> Not on the same hardware.
1032 2014-05-26 20:05:27 <tcatm> When re-indexing I get a lot of orphaned blocks.
1033 2014-05-26 20:05:40 <sipa> ... that's impossible
1034 2014-05-26 20:05:47 <sipa> orphans are ignored during reindex
1035 2014-05-26 20:06:26 <sipa> oh they may still be logged
1036 2014-05-26 20:06:43 <sipa> that means the block data is corrupted... but we already knew that
1037 2014-05-26 20:08:24 <tcatm> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=1kNKXqF8
1038 2014-05-26 20:08:59 <sipa> and after that only more orphan blocls, i guess
1039 2014-05-26 20:09:16 <tcatm> yes
1040 2014-05-26 20:09:32 <sipa> no known bug that causes that, no
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1043 2014-05-26 20:11:36 <gokudev> sipa nice writeup! but then that encourages us to stick with bitcoin core and waiting isnt an option to have hd wallets / watchonly wallets or even offline storage
1044 2014-05-26 20:12:12 <gokudev> but then again having forks due to implementation problems can be disastrous
1045 2014-05-26 20:12:16 <sipa> there is absolutely no reason why core code needs to be even the same program as the wallet
1046 2014-05-26 20:12:30 <sipa> satoshi really gave a bad example that many try to copy
1047 2014-05-26 20:12:50 <sipa> use a program that is designed as a wallet and nothing more
1048 2014-05-26 20:13:07 <gokudev> armory does that i know
1049 2014-05-26 20:13:28 <sipa> yes, and bitcoinj, and bitsofproof, and coinvault
1050 2014-05-26 20:13:37 <gokudev> what about bitcoinlib ?
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1052 2014-05-26 20:13:45 <sipa> never heard about that
1053 2014-05-26 20:14:39 <gokudev> https://github.com/GeorgeKimionis/BitcoinLib
1054 2014-05-26 20:14:53 <gokudev> i think its just a C# wrapper to the bitcoin daemon and makes rpc calls
1055 2014-05-26 20:17:16 <sipa> seems like it
1056 2014-05-26 20:17:57 <gokudev> so nbitcoin is a port to bitcoin core itself as well
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1110 2014-05-26 21:41:39 <ahmed_> hi guys
1111 2014-05-26 21:42:07 <ahmed_> does anyone here know how to sort the output of bitcoin's listsinceblock by confirmations?
1112 2014-05-26 21:42:14 <ahmed_> im using jgarzik's python bitcoin lib
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