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   4 2014-05-29 00:01:34 <dazedhead> Hi gwillen, thanks for your reply... Can you show me an example of a coinbase transactions? what i need to take care of?
   5 2014-05-29 00:02:03 <gwillen> dazedhead: take a look at the latest block: https://blockchain.info/block-index/417706/0000000000000000198e2be180b1541adc1e7be30237892194b58b8d2f5c49c4
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   7 2014-05-29 00:02:18 <gwillen> dazedhead: the first listed transaction says "no inputs (newly generated coins)". That is a coinbase.
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  16 2014-05-29 00:14:17 <dazedhead> gwillen: so i have a key coinbase and sequence in "vin" right? (https://github.com/conformal/btcd/wiki/JSON-RPC-API)
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  18 2014-05-29 00:15:02 <dazedhead> gwillen: so i only i need to ignore this "vin" and to add the values of "vout" right?
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  20 2014-05-29 00:15:24 <gwillen> dazedhead: that all sounds about right, yeah
  21 2014-05-29 00:15:36 <dazedhead> hm... i think im doing this alraedy...
  22 2014-05-29 00:15:44 <dazedhead> " Are you accounting for transactions that are to or from complex addresses that aren't just a single key? "
  23 2014-05-29 00:15:54 <dazedhead> can you explain me this more detailled please?
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  25 2014-05-29 00:15:57 <gwillen> so honestly if you're just counting vins and vouts
  26 2014-05-29 00:16:07 <gwillen> I'm not actually sure if it matters what type of address it is
  27 2014-05-29 00:16:26 <gwillen> it seems like that should just work
  28 2014-05-29 00:16:30 <gwillen> so perhaps you have a bug somewhere
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  30 2014-05-29 00:18:03 <dazedhead> can you show me a example of a complex address? maybe i know what you mean.... i already saw that the "addresses" key is an array, so its possible that there are more 1 address in the "addresses" key of "scriptPubKey"
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  32 2014-05-29 00:18:15 <dazedhead> ?
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  34 2014-05-29 00:20:26 <gwillen> dazedhead: let me look
  35 2014-05-29 00:21:27 <gwillen> dazedhead: when you are working with a vout, do you do anything with the addresses? Or do you just note the bitcoins at that vout, waiting to see a corresponding vin later?
  36 2014-05-29 00:21:36 <gwillen> (And the at the end, total up the vouts at each address?)
  37 2014-05-29 00:22:05 <gwillen> If you don't worry about the addresses until the end, you should get a correct accounting for the vouts that only have one address, I think
  38 2014-05-29 00:22:27 <gwillen> you could have multiple addresses in the case of multisig transactions, I think, where multiple people have to sign to get the coins
  39 2014-05-29 00:22:44 <gwillen> but to know what the array of addresses means, you would have to understand the associated script
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  48 2014-05-29 00:36:02 <dazedhead> can you take a look on http://pastebin.com/ZkNcd75F
  49 2014-05-29 00:36:03 <dazedhead> ?
  50 2014-05-29 00:36:07 <dazedhead> gwillen:
  51 2014-05-29 00:36:50 <dazedhead> i know its not btc but im testing on a small coin because there it is easy to parse the complete block chain in small time and to verify if the list is calculated correctly
  52 2014-05-29 00:36:53 <gwillen> dazedhead: yeah?
  53 2014-05-29 00:36:56 * gwillen nods
  54 2014-05-29 00:37:05 <gwillen> dazedhead: you could also try BTC testnet, that's probably smaller than BTC mainnet
  55 2014-05-29 00:37:27 <dazedhead> ah nice to know thanks :-)
  56 2014-05-29 00:38:03 <dazedhead> i wrote you for vout and vin the list of steps im doing to calculate the address balance
  57 2014-05-29 00:38:15 <dazedhead> under each example
  58 2014-05-29 00:38:41 <gwillen> let me look, hold on
  59 2014-05-29 00:38:51 <kiddouk> dazedhead: sounds good  to me
  60 2014-05-29 00:39:13 <gwillen> dazedhead: I would not use addresses at all in the main process
  61 2014-05-29 00:39:39 <gwillen> dazedhead: I would just store balances indexed by transaction id and vout number
  62 2014-05-29 00:39:52 <gwillen> and then remove when it's spent to a vin in another transaction
  63 2014-05-29 00:40:00 <gwillen> then at the very end you should have a list of vouts with balances
  64 2014-05-29 00:40:04 <gwillen> THEN tally up the addresses
  65 2014-05-29 00:40:24 <gwillen> this will prevent errors when dealing with types of scripts that have multiple addresses or do other odd thigns
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  68 2014-05-29 00:43:51 <warren> bitcoind: /home/ubuntu/install/include/boost/thread/pthread/condition_variable_fwd.hpp:81: boost::condition_variable::~condition_variable(): Assertion `!ret' failed.
  69 2014-05-29 00:44:17 <warren> 0.9.2 branch bitcoind can crash if you use too many RPC's quickly.
  70 2014-05-29 00:44:24 <warren> trying to narrow it down
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  87 2014-05-29 01:12:18 <dazedhead> gwillen: kiddouk thank you both for your nice help... it already 3am here maybe i should continue tomorrow :-\ thanks for your tips !
  88 2014-05-29 01:12:27 <gwillen> dazedhead: no problem, good luck
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 120 2014-05-29 01:51:40 <jgarzik> fscking spammers
 121 2014-05-29 01:51:44 * jgarzik deletes some github spam
 122 2014-05-29 01:51:59 <jgarzik> I cannot believe github lacks a "block asshole from project" feature
 123 2014-05-29 01:52:20 <jgarzik> I can _individually_ block a spammer, but that doesn't turn them away from spamming your project
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 125 2014-05-29 01:52:56 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, I deleted a bunch of that guys spam an also 'report user'ed him.
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 159 2014-05-29 02:42:03 <lechuga_> when a node is initially syncing and after it sends its first getblocks message what prompts it to send another
 160 2014-05-29 02:42:20 <lechuga_> it looks like only when it sees a block get relayed with no parent
 161 2014-05-29 02:43:00 <lechuga_> unless im missing it
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 242 2014-05-29 04:24:59 <G_Qu> can anyone help? i absolutely cannot sync my wallet. been days. tried bootstrap, still nothing.
 243 2014-05-29 04:25:31 <w1zman> firewall ?
 244 2014-05-29 04:25:39 <G_Qu> nope
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 246 2014-05-29 04:28:18 <G_Qu> have also updated to latest version, no change
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 352 2014-05-29 07:08:33 <wumpus> hmm... I just ran bitcoind with --checkblocks=0 and --checklevel=2 and got the following error
 353 2014-05-29 07:08:34 <wumpus> 2014-05-29 06:53:38 ERROR: CheckBlockHeader() : block with timestamp before last checkpoint
 354 2014-05-29 07:08:34 <wumpus> 2014-05-29 06:53:38 ERROR: VerifyDB() : *** found bad block at 278999, hash=0000000000000001ed51db67f98e83ac76209fe00dabc2a42c80cbc9a4ef6c45
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 357 2014-05-29 07:12:44 <wumpus> could be db corruption, though it's strange to get the "block with timestamp before last checkpoint" when retroactively validating
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 363 2014-05-29 07:15:57 <gmaxwell> Did you suspect corruption before doing that?
 364 2014-05-29 07:16:06 * gmaxwell checks his laptop
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 366 2014-05-29 07:16:20 <wumpus> no, I was just goofing around a bit to test a patch that adds a progress bar
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 368 2014-05-29 07:17:25 <wumpus> "time" : 1389046538, for that block
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 371 2014-05-29 07:19:10 <gmaxwell> Reproduces here.
 372 2014-05-29 07:20:16 <gmaxwell> 279000 is at     "time" : 1389047471,
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 374 2014-05-29 07:21:57 <wumpus> I get the same time for 279000
 375 2014-05-29 07:22:13 <wumpus> so 279000 should never have been made a checkpoint
 376 2014-05-29 07:22:13 <gmaxwell> but the prior checkpoint is 250000, which is 1375533383
 377 2014-05-29 07:22:54 <wumpus> hm, right
 378 2014-05-29 07:23:24 <gmaxwell> must be the checkblock logic is using the current node's height for picking the checkpoints.
 379 2014-05-29 07:23:35 <wumpus> 'last checkpoint' for block 278999 should be 250000, not 279000
 380 2014-05-29 07:23:36 <gmaxwell> or something like that?
 381 2014-05-29 07:23:41 <gmaxwell> right.
 382 2014-05-29 07:24:28 * gmaxwell really looks forward to headers first so we can reduce the role of the kludgy and confusing checkpoint stuff.
 383 2014-05-29 07:24:53 <gmaxwell> I've done --checkblocks=0 and --checklevel=X a bunch of times, so I suspect we've probably broken this recently.
 384 2014-05-29 07:25:12 <wumpus> it gets triggered here https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L2345  -- may have to do with the CheckBlockHeader split recently
 385 2014-05-29 07:25:14 <gmaxwell> weird that it only fails at that height, using the wrong checkpoint should have made it fail right away.
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 387 2014-05-29 07:25:30 <gmaxwell> oh right that check runs backwards.
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 389 2014-05-29 07:25:59 <gmaxwell> (from current best towards 0, so it makes sense that it would fail between the last two checkpoints.)
 390 2014-05-29 07:26:35 <wumpus> right, makes perfect sense
 391 2014-05-29 07:26:42 <wumpus> I'm going to try with the 0.9.2 branch to see if it happens there
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 403 2014-05-29 07:47:56 <wumpus> no problems there
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 560 2014-05-29 10:19:40 <dcousens> anyone have any testnet peers? My client can't seem to find any :/, no problems with mainnet
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 570 2014-05-29 10:30:14 <Jouke> dcousens: 190.242.69.77 is a peer I am connected to
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 577 2014-05-29 10:41:51 <wumpus> there have been on-off problems with the testnet DNS seeds, best to add some known testnet node with -addnode and let it find peers from there
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 597 2014-05-29 11:17:19 <michagogo> dcousens: still need peers?
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 606 2014-05-29 11:34:12 <Diapolo> wumpus: I guess we have a problem with ordering of settings processing in the GUI.
 607 2014-05-29 11:35:18 <Diapolo> wumpus: It seems we create the optionsmodel now before getting to AppInit2() which covers parameter interactions and stuff. This seems to cause problems as GUI settings are processed before these.
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 611 2014-05-29 11:40:38 <aschildbach> Is it possible that bitcoind testnet inherits some config value from .bitcoin/bitcoin.conf rather than only using .bitcoin/testnet3/bitcoin.conf?
 612 2014-05-29 11:41:05 <aschildbach> I'm talking specifically about the maxconnections config parameter.
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 629 2014-05-29 11:55:31 <Diapolo> aschildbach: GetDataDir(false) / pathConfigFile seems to me the config file is not net specific, which would mean .bitcoin/bitcoin.conf is used even for testnet.
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 635 2014-05-29 12:06:37 <aschildbach> Diapolo: thanks, that would explain
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 637 2014-05-29 12:07:54 <Diapolo> aschildbach: No problem.
 638 2014-05-29 12:07:54 <Diapolo> wumpus: Any thoughts on what I wrote above?
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 647 2014-05-29 12:17:59 <chichov> under which circumstances does settxfee return false?
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 649 2014-05-29 12:26:12 <skinnkavaj> What is the sorcery behind blockchain.info fast rescan of blockchain with adding privkeys in seconds. Why is this not possible with bitcoin-qt why is blockchain.info faster
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 653 2014-05-29 12:28:07 <tommygunner> you can use a light client like electrum and it will be faster as well
 654 2014-05-29 12:28:20 <tommygunner> and you dont have to give some random website your private key
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 658 2014-05-29 12:37:01 <skinnkavaj> tommygunner: Is it possible to import electrum into an exchange? I am building a bitcoin exchange for spain and thought it would be a great idea to have import privkey
 659 2014-05-29 12:37:52 <kiddouk> skinnkavaj: nope. And before asking for private key, you should be aware of the risk of theft you are exposing yourself to.
 660 2014-05-29 12:38:10 <skinnkavaj> kiddouk: If blockchain.info can do it in seconds and sweep key
 661 2014-05-29 12:38:14 <skinnkavaj> Why shouldnt an exchange be able to do it
 662 2014-05-29 12:38:41 <tommygunner> make people send the coins instead of giving you the private key
 663 2014-05-29 12:38:52 <kiddouk> It doesn't prevent you to be exposed to the risk of theft. It exposes you a lower amount of time, but it exposes you anyway.
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 669 2014-05-29 12:46:12 <wumpus> aschildbach: there is no specific configuration file for testnet
 670 2014-05-29 12:46:21 <wumpus> aschildbach: that's always been the case
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 676 2014-05-29 12:51:08 <dcousens> michagogo: nup, thanks :)
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 679 2014-05-29 12:53:04 <wumpus> (you can specify one with -conf=..., of course)
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 686 2014-05-29 13:01:19 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: importing privkeys is not safe. you want to sweep.
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 693 2014-05-29 13:11:25 <kjj> I would say that the unsafe part is accepting a private key as payment
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 696 2014-05-29 13:13:51 <hearn> skinnkavaj: it requires giant databases that are expensive to build and maintain
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 700 2014-05-29 13:14:58 <wumpus> right, it would need output-based indexes, which is not rocket science but importing privkeys is just not a use-case to be optimized for bitcoin-qt
 701 2014-05-29 13:15:12 <sipa> nor should it be, imho
 702 2014-05-29 13:15:15 <wumpus> right
 703 2014-05-29 13:15:31 <wumpus> I'm sure there is other software for you if you really need to do that
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 709 2014-05-29 13:19:16 <sipa> wumpus: have't had the time to check, but the checkheaders failure... are we sure the checkpoint's timestamp is later than any of its predecessor blocks?
 710 2014-05-29 13:19:28 <sipa> if it isn't, that eould explain the error
 711 2014-05-29 13:21:21 <wumpus> sipa: well it got added in this pull, a few people including you checked it before it was merged https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3551 :)
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 714 2014-05-29 13:21:50 <sipa> yes, i believe i did check it
 715 2014-05-29 13:22:40 <wumpus> also the error doesn't happen in 0.9.2, just master, so it is caused by a more recent change
 716 2014-05-29 13:22:45 <sipa> ok
 717 2014-05-29 13:22:52 <wumpus> (although it could have been that it became stricter...)
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 719 2014-05-29 13:23:09 <sipa> the logic shouldn't have changed
 720 2014-05-29 13:23:16 <sipa> if it did, that's a bug
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 821 2014-05-29 15:18:45 <coryfields> sipa / wumpus: around?
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 823 2014-05-29 15:18:55 <sipa> yes
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 825 2014-05-29 15:19:27 <wumpus> yes
 826 2014-05-29 15:19:37 <coryfields> sipa: i'm PR'ing my gpg key for gitian signing. I see some are ascii, some are binary. Any preference?
 827 2014-05-29 15:20:10 <sipa> dontcare :)
 828 2014-05-29 15:20:14 <wumpus> I don't mind either
 829 2014-05-29 15:20:19 <coryfields> roger
 830 2014-05-29 15:20:35 <coryfields> wasn't sure if any of the scripts prefered one form over another
 831 2014-05-29 15:20:58 <wumpus> the scripts don't import the keys for you
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 839 2014-05-29 15:26:10 <embicoin> Hello, I realized that the bitcoin core qt wallet has a bad cosmetic behaviour into mac osx systems, when you click on the bitcoin icon in the dock, it is expected that the bitcoin window comes to foreground, but currently this is not working as expected...
 840 2014-05-29 15:26:14 xenog has joined
 841 2014-05-29 15:26:17 <embicoin> you click on the dock icon and it does nothing
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 843 2014-05-29 15:26:23 moarrr_bitcoins is now known as moarrr_darkcoins
 844 2014-05-29 15:26:58 <embicoin> i looked for some info, i found a blog commenting about this problem, it seems common in qt software
 845 2014-05-29 15:26:59 <embicoin> http://th30z.blogspot.com.es/2008/08/qt4-mac-dock-icon-click_2711.html
 846 2014-05-29 15:27:42 <embicoin> is just a cosmetic bug, but I would like to fix it, so, where do you recommend to do the tests? into the macdockiconhandler.mm???
 847 2014-05-29 15:27:58 aquarat2 has joined
 848 2014-05-29 15:28:03 <embicoin> or directly into bitcoingui file?
 849 2014-05-29 15:28:15 <minium> where can I see the comments attached in e.g. move and sendtoaddress commands?
 850 2014-05-29 15:28:41 <sipa> in their implementation
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 852 2014-05-29 15:30:31 <embicoin> it seems that the fixing code is this:
 853 2014-05-29 15:30:32 <embicoin> #ifdef Q_WS_MAC     // Install Reopen Application Event (Dock Clicked)     m_appleEventProcessorUPP = AEEventHandlerUPP(appleEventProcessor);     AEInstallEventHandler(kCoreEventClass, kAEReopenApplication,                           m_appleEventProcessorUPP, (long) this, true); #endif
 854 2014-05-29 15:30:50 <embicoin> obviously adapted to the bitcoin code...
 855 2014-05-29 15:31:16 <sipa> embicoin: patches welcome :)
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 857 2014-05-29 15:31:54 <embicoin> np sipa, this is not very important, but sometimes can be a hassle to mac users...
 858 2014-05-29 15:32:30 <embicoin> i will try to work in a patch, but my knowledge is limited somehow :P
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 873 2014-05-29 15:41:45 <skinnkavaj> kjj: If you let users import priv key but have to wait an hour before balance is credited to the exchange account shouldnt it be safe?
 874 2014-05-29 15:41:56 <skinnkavaj> hearn: Why do you need a large database?
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 876 2014-05-29 15:42:55 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: So there must be a way to import a privkey to an exchange account if the users wait until we sweep the key.
 877 2014-05-29 15:43:32 w1zman has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 878 2014-05-29 15:43:39 <sipa> skinnkavaj: to find transaction outputs that credit that key
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 880 2014-05-29 15:44:05 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: what? why?
 881 2014-05-29 15:44:17 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: private keys are NOT a reasonable medium of exchange.
 882 2014-05-29 15:44:26 <jcorgan> skinnkavaj: the node must scan the entire blockchain for transactions outputs that match the address corresponding to the private key.  This can take a long time unless the blockchain is already indexed on addresses.
 883 2014-05-29 15:45:02 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: and merely waiting an hour is not sufficient; you'd need to send it to a new secure key (this is what sweeping means)
 884 2014-05-29 15:45:03 <skinnkavaj> jcorgan: So blockchain.info is very heavy and expensive to run?
 885 2014-05-29 15:45:08 aegis has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 886 2014-05-29 15:45:12 <jcorgan> yes
 887 2014-05-29 15:45:13 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: Why not use green addresses?
 888 2014-05-29 15:45:17 <lianj> also if you and the exchange have the privkey now, then the exchange cant trust it and has to move the funds anyway
 889 2014-05-29 15:45:19 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: ………
 890 2014-05-29 15:45:24 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: you just love bad ideas today? :D
 891 2014-05-29 15:45:50 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: I just really want to import a privkey to an exchange, when I import from cold storage I have to first import to bitcoin-qt and then send to an exchange
 892 2014-05-29 15:45:54 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: I believe https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Green_address#Criticism covers most of that topic
 893 2014-05-29 15:45:54 <skinnkavaj> Think it should be built in
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 895 2014-05-29 15:46:15 <wumpus> Luke-Jr, skinnkavaj, please move this discussion to #bitcoin, it seems to revolve around misconceptions about bitcoin itself
 896 2014-05-29 15:46:16 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: private keys should not be used for cold storage.
 897 2014-05-29 15:46:21 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: +1
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 901 2014-05-29 15:46:43 <dazedhead> Does anybody know some documentation links about how to implement "Proof of Stake"?
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 903 2014-05-29 15:46:58 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: you are too paranoid, is it really possibe that storing on a single address and private key is dangerous? Is there any documentation that support it?
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 906 2014-05-29 15:47:16 <dazedhead> in relation to calculate the balance of each address of a coin
 907 2014-05-29 15:47:19 <sipa> skinnkavaj: the exchange can't know you won't move the funds from under them
 908 2014-05-29 15:47:35 <sipa> skinnkavaj: it does not guarantee they become the sole owner
 909 2014-05-29 15:47:53 <skinnkavaj> sipa: The exchange could sweep the key and the user would have to wait
 910 2014-05-29 15:47:56 <skinnkavaj> I see no problem with that
 911 2014-05-29 15:48:07 <sipa> that's exactly what people are telling you here
 912 2014-05-29 15:48:16 <sipa> only bitcoin-qt is not the right tool for it
 913 2014-05-29 15:48:34 <skinnkavaj> sipa: But it's better to do with electrum?
 914 2014-05-29 15:48:42 <sipa> no clue
 915 2014-05-29 15:48:51 <lianj> its best not to do at all
 916 2014-05-29 15:48:57 <skinnkavaj> Someone here must be familiar with electrum
 917 2014-05-29 15:49:11 <jcorgan> skinnkavaj: the "proper" way to move funds out of cold storage is the create a signed transaction to a new address in a hot wallet, or in your case, to a deposit address for the exchange
 918 2014-05-29 15:49:12 <sipa> i wouldn't encourage direct-private-key expose to end users
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 920 2014-05-29 15:49:37 <jcorgan> skinnkavaj: but let's take this to #bitcoin
 921 2014-05-29 15:50:52 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: "is it really possibe that storing on a single … private key is dangerous? Is there any documentation that support it?" <-- there have been 2 possible ways to exploit this discovered to date; I would not be shocked if there were more discovered going forward
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 924 2014-05-29 15:51:47 <sipa> dazedhead: PoS as replacement for PoW is considered broken... it may be useful in combination with it, though
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 926 2014-05-29 15:56:17 <Belxjander> sipa: Proof Of Stake?
 927 2014-05-29 15:56:26 <sipa> yes
 928 2014-05-29 15:56:44 <Apocalyptic> it's beyond considered, it really is
 929 2014-05-29 15:58:07 <helo> there are still plenty of believers... it will be nice once one of them launches an implementation
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 931 2014-05-29 15:58:44 <sipa> it works as long as everyone in the system plays by the rules
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 936 2014-05-29 16:02:37 <tyr1ck> what does the scriptSig depend on in a tx?
 937 2014-05-29 16:02:46 <lifty> Hi folks, does anyone know of an open source piece of software that maintains an index of the blockchain based on addresses? My goal is to be able to make queries and return all the transactions for a specific address. Cant find anything that does this besides services like blockchain.info
 938 2014-05-29 16:03:02 <tyr1ck> or rather what processes take place before arriving at the scriptSig
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 941 2014-05-29 16:03:38 <sipa> tyr1ck: in typical transactions, it's a script that pushes onto the stack the public key and signature
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 943 2014-05-29 16:03:55 <tyr1ck> ahhh sorry
 944 2014-05-29 16:03:57 <tyr1ck> I see that
 945 2014-05-29 16:04:00 <tyr1ck> I meant the signature
 946 2014-05-29 16:04:16 <sipa> the signature signs a special hash of the spending transaction (excluding the scriptSig itself, of course), which also includes parts of the transaction being spent
 947 2014-05-29 16:04:29 <tyr1ck> gotcha
 948 2014-05-29 16:04:48 <tyr1ck> and the special hash is?
 949 2014-05-29 16:05:14 <tyr1ck> double sha256?
 950 2014-05-29 16:05:33 <tyr1ck> or is it simple the hash of the spending transaction?
 951 2014-05-29 16:05:35 <sipa> yes, but the hard part is what is hashed :)
 952 2014-05-29 16:05:36 <tyr1ck> simply*
 953 2014-05-29 16:05:50 <tyr1ck> If it is just the hash of the tx, then I am good
 954 2014-05-29 16:05:55 <sipa> no, it can't be
 955 2014-05-29 16:05:59 <tyr1ck> I see
 956 2014-05-29 16:06:07 <sipa> you'd need to know the scriptSig before you could compute the signature in that case
 957 2014-05-29 16:06:24 <sipa> there are several modifications made to the signing transaction before being fed to the hashfunction
 958 2014-05-29 16:06:48 <sipa> including replacing some parts with pieces of the transactions whose outputs are being spent
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 960 2014-05-29 16:06:53 <tyr1ck> I have tons of questions =/
 961 2014-05-29 16:06:58 <tyr1ck> maybe I'll skip to another
 962 2014-05-29 16:07:02 <tyr1ck> looking at : OP_DUP OP_HASH160 c812a297b8e0e778d7a22bb2cd6d23c3e789472b OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG
 963 2014-05-29 16:07:12 <andytoshi> lifty: i don't think there's anything out there, sorry
 964 2014-05-29 16:07:19 <tyr1ck> c812a297b8e0e778d7a22bb2cd6d23c3e789472b  is the recipient's public key correct?
 965 2014-05-29 16:07:27 <sipa> tyr1ck: no, its hash
 966 2014-05-29 16:07:33 <tyr1ck> right
 967 2014-05-29 16:07:35 <sipa> lifty: abe does that afaik, but is very resource heavy
 968 2014-05-29 16:07:41 <tyr1ck> but it isn't the bitcoin public address
 969 2014-05-29 16:07:47 <sipa> it is
 970 2014-05-29 16:07:48 <tyr1ck> do how does one get that?
 971 2014-05-29 16:07:58 <tyr1ck> I thought bitcoin addresses start with a 1
 972 2014-05-29 16:07:58 <sipa> it's the raw data encoded inside the address
 973 2014-05-29 16:08:06 <sipa> which is base58 encoded with version number and checksum
 974 2014-05-29 16:08:11 <tyr1ck> ahhh
 975 2014-05-29 16:08:12 <lifty> ok cool, thx guys
 976 2014-05-29 16:08:26 <tyr1ck> I see, so I can always base58 decode after stripping the checksum
 977 2014-05-29 16:08:33 <tyr1ck> and get that value
 978 2014-05-29 16:08:39 <lifty> I might have to implement something like that myself
 979 2014-05-29 16:08:44 <sipa> assuming it's a v1 transaction, yes
 980 2014-05-29 16:08:50 <tyr1ck> great!
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 984 2014-05-29 16:08:57 <sipa> eh, v1 address
 985 2014-05-29 16:09:15 <tyr1ck> hm
 986 2014-05-29 16:09:20 <tyr1ck> I thought all tx were v1?
 987 2014-05-29 16:09:23 <tyr1ck> as of now
 988 2014-05-29 16:09:28 <sipa> v1 address
 989 2014-05-29 16:09:32 <tyr1ck> okay
 990 2014-05-29 16:09:33 <tyr1ck> I see
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 993 2014-05-29 16:11:35 <tyr1ck> So in the case of having the above scriptPubKey, my scriptSig will require the public key and a signature, which is magic...
 994 2014-05-29 16:12:06 <sipa> there's plenty of documentation out there on how to compute the signature hash
 995 2014-05-29 16:12:53 banghouse has joined
 996 2014-05-29 16:13:12 <michagogo> sipa: v0 address, no?
 997 2014-05-29 16:13:39 grandmaster has joined
 998 2014-05-29 16:13:39 <michagogo> The address version byte is 0
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1000 2014-05-29 16:13:53 <tyr1ck> I guess I am also interested in the OP_CHECKSIG script
1001 2014-05-29 16:14:17 <tyr1ck> off the top of your head, you know where it is in the code?
1002 2014-05-29 16:14:59 <sipa> script.cpp, CTransactionSignatureSerializer
1003 2014-05-29 16:15:09 <tyr1ck> thx thx th
1004 2014-05-29 16:15:21 <sipa> michagogo: right
1005 2014-05-29 16:15:28 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1006 2014-05-29 16:15:36 <jrick> with latest git: http://sprunge.us/OPaW
1007 2014-05-29 16:15:42 <jrick> is that really necessary?
1008 2014-05-29 16:16:35 <sipa> wth, how did that get in?
1009 2014-05-29 16:16:37 GM0127 has joined
1010 2014-05-29 16:16:41 <michagogo> jrick: some context?
1011 2014-05-29 16:16:49 <michagogo> Line numbers? Git blame?
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1013 2014-05-29 16:17:17 <michagogo> -nC10 or so passed to grep?
1014 2014-05-29 16:17:38 <jrick> that's in the rpc help text
1015 2014-05-29 16:17:56 <michagogo> (But yeah, what sipa said)
1016 2014-05-29 16:18:02 * sipa fixes
1017 2014-05-29 16:18:05 DougieBot5000 has joined
1018 2014-05-29 16:18:17 <michagogo> sipa: what's the git-blame?
1019 2014-05-29 16:18:20 Belxjander has quit (Quit: System rebootingExec.Library/ColdReboot())
1020 2014-05-29 16:18:28 <sipa> a6099ef3
1021 2014-05-29 16:18:31 * michagogo isn't at a computer atm
1022 2014-05-29 16:18:34 YoY has joined
1023 2014-05-29 16:18:35 <jrick> a6099ef3 (sje                      2013-10-29 22:29:44 +1100 1450)
1024 2014-05-29 16:19:07 * michagogo hopes github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/a6099ef3 is the right link
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1028 2014-05-29 16:24:34 <michagogo> Er, are you sure that's the commit that added it?
1029 2014-05-29 16:24:41 tombtc has joined
1030 2014-05-29 16:24:57 <jrick> no, could be moved from somewhere else
1031 2014-05-29 16:25:02 <michagogo> I tried searching that commit and the PR's changes tab for blockchain.info
1032 2014-05-29 16:25:06 <sipa> yes
1033 2014-05-29 16:25:07 <michagogo> It's not there
1034 2014-05-29 16:25:12 <sipa> it's not moved
1035 2014-05-29 16:25:31 * michagogo is confused
1036 2014-05-29 16:26:02 <sipa> the diff of that commit shows the string blockchain.info only in added lines, and not in deleted lines
1037 2014-05-29 16:26:24 <michagogo> I searched for "blockchain" and for "info" on the page I linked myself to above
1038 2014-05-29 16:26:38 <michagogo> Didn't seem to be there
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1040 2014-05-29 16:26:47 <harding> michagogo: I searched that page you linked and found them.
1041 2014-05-29 16:26:55 <michagogo> Odd.
1042 2014-05-29 16:27:02 <michagogo> Mobile interface being weird?
1043 2014-05-29 16:27:07 MrWDunne has left ()
1044 2014-05-29 16:27:28 <michagogo> Anyway, looks like the blame target is wumpus here
1045 2014-05-29 16:28:02 <sipa> it was added in #3246, which is a rebase of #3184
1046 2014-05-29 16:29:04 <sipa> bah, that's even in 0.9.1
1047 2014-05-29 16:29:40 * michagogo hands wumpus a conical hat
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1053 2014-05-29 16:35:36 <jrick> there appears to be another reference to bc.i in doc/bootstrap.md, but not sure if that falls under the same category of speedy purging
1054 2014-05-29 16:36:10 <wumpus> huh/
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1059 2014-05-29 16:40:05 <wumpus> I haven't added them, but yes the references to bc.i should probably be removed
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1074 2014-05-29 16:50:57 <michagogo> wumpus: you appear to have rebased and merged them in
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1085 2014-05-29 16:54:45 <wumpus> michagogo: yes...
1086 2014-05-29 16:55:05 <wumpus> like 95% of the stuff that makes it into bitcoin core
1087 2014-05-29 16:55:58 <michagogo> wumpus: isn't review expected before merging? :P
1088 2014-05-29 16:57:17 <wumpus> not only by me
1089 2014-05-29 16:57:28 crunk-ju_ has joined
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1091 2014-05-29 16:57:56 <wumpus> and yes, I reviewed it, but it's not necessarily wrong
1092 2014-05-29 16:58:22 <wumpus> it's not nice to refer to a centralized service, but I'm sure the submitter of that pull meant no harm with it
1093 2014-05-29 16:59:01 <wumpus> anyhow, it's gone now
1094 2014-05-29 16:59:07 <wumpus> thanks sipa
1095 2014-05-29 16:59:10 <michagogo> Great
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1098 2014-05-29 17:01:13 <michagogo> (If it wasn't clear: I was just kidding with the whole blame and hat thing. I didn't intend any offense or insult or anything and I hope you didn't take it that way... If you did, I'm sorry.)
1099 2014-05-29 17:02:29 <coryfields> michagogo: are you able to do the osx gitian build?
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1107 2014-05-29 17:07:02 <michagogo> coryfields: not near my computer tonight
1108 2014-05-29 17:07:14 digitalmagus has joined
1109 2014-05-29 17:07:25 <michagogo> Sorry
1110 2014-05-29 17:08:06 <coryfields> ok, np
1111 2014-05-29 17:08:10 lolstate has joined
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1113 2014-05-29 17:09:10 <michagogo> Did we end up switching the afk?
1114 2014-05-29 17:09:12 <michagogo> SSL?
1115 2014-05-29 17:09:16 <michagogo> SDK?
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1119 2014-05-29 17:13:01 <wumpus> michagogo: oh you were trolling! :p
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1122 2014-05-29 17:13:29 <michagogo> wumpus: maybe :P
1123 2014-05-29 17:15:00 <wumpus> yes, we switched the SDK
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1125 2014-05-29 17:15:21 <wumpus> it's based on the 10.7 SDK now
1126 2014-05-29 17:16:50 <wumpus> and we don't have a platform independent way to extract the SDK from the xcode package yet, so if you don't have access to a mac you'll need to convince someone to send it to you
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1128 2014-05-29 17:17:22 <michagogo> wumpus: I think I do have access to a Mac
1129 2014-05-29 17:17:33 <coryfields> i'm confident that there's a way to handle that, i just didn't want to focus on that part until the new SDK build actually worked
1130 2014-05-29 17:17:41 <wumpus> (which is no problem, I'm willing to send it)
1131 2014-05-29 17:17:44 <michagogo> Not too happy about the (assumed) several-GB download, though
1132 2014-05-29 17:17:45 <coryfields> hopefully we'll have all the wrinkles taken care of for the next release
1133 2014-05-29 17:17:54 <coryfields> michagogo: iirc it's ~1.1
1134 2014-05-29 17:18:05 <michagogo> Ah, smaller than the other one?
1135 2014-05-29 17:19:07 <wumpus> there is also a version of the 10.7 SDK someone put on github, but alas it doesn't work with the qt build, I've tried (see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4229)
1136 2014-05-29 17:19:58 <coryfields> wumpus: i've thought about it some, and i'm not sure how any of the sdk could be non-redistributable
1137 2014-05-29 17:20:09 <coryfields> considering that its purpose is to end up in released binaries
1138 2014-05-29 17:20:15 <coryfields> worth looking into, imo
1139 2014-05-29 17:20:38 <wumpus> coryfields: I'm not sure either, wouldn't mind distributing it in some form either way, the only issue is trust
1140 2014-05-29 17:21:04 <coryfields> wumpus: well if it's redistributable, i can create a relocatable toolchain and try to get it pushed up to debian/ubuntu
1141 2014-05-29 17:21:20 <wumpus> only if you download from apple and extract it yourself you can be sure it's the real one
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1143 2014-05-29 17:23:07 <coryfields> sure, but you can say the same about linux's glibc
1144 2014-05-29 17:23:52 <coryfields> (my point being that the headers/libs have to come from somewhere initially)
1145 2014-05-29 17:24:01 <wumpus> right, if you can get it in ubuntu/debian upstream, then it's implicitly trusted
1146 2014-05-29 17:24:22 <coryfields> i suppose that's what i was trying to say, yea :)
1147 2014-05-29 17:24:27 <wumpus> we implicitly trust the rest of ubuntu for the gitian build already, same could indeed be said for the w32 sdk in mingw
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1149 2014-05-29 17:26:58 <gavinandresen> jgarzik sipa: RE: save/restore memory pool being dangerous:  ideas on how to mitigate? Could just not save transactions that have been hanging around more than 25 blocks....
1150 2014-05-29 17:27:30 <gavinandresen> (25 blocks is the limit for how far the estimate code records history)
1151 2014-05-29 17:28:03 <wumpus> gavinandresen: sounds sensible, especially if those transactions aren't used for the estimation anyway
1152 2014-05-29 17:28:19 bbrian has joined
1153 2014-05-29 17:28:57 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: meh, even for centralised services, bc.i is especially bad since it sews misinformation everywhere
1154 2014-05-29 17:28:58 <gavinandresen> What's that status of the mempool janitor pull?  That's relevant, too....
1155 2014-05-29 17:29:29 <sipa> i like the general idea of a janitor but not its current implementation
1156 2014-05-29 17:30:19 <sipa> the problem is that it's an unenforcable policy... people may keep resubmitting their transactions
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1158 2014-05-29 17:30:38 <wumpus> but if people resubmit their transaction there isn't a problem is there?
1159 2014-05-29 17:30:51 <wumpus> I thought it's there to clean up tranactions no one cares about anymore
1160 2014-05-29 17:31:00 <sipa> not necessary the people who might want to see them expire
1161 2014-05-29 17:31:06 <sipa> so providing any guarantees on mempool lifetime (in either direction) is very hard
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1163 2014-05-29 17:31:18 <wumpus> no guarantees are possible
1164 2014-05-29 17:31:18 <denisx> Iam running a bitcoin in ipv6 only mode, but it tests only two ipv6 adresses after start per second. is there a way to speed that up?
1165 2014-05-29 17:31:23 <denisx> node
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1167 2014-05-29 17:31:29 <gmaxwell> e.g. coinbase for a while was agressively retransmitting every txn in their mempool every time there was a block on the network.
1168 2014-05-29 17:31:42 <gmaxwell> (they may still be)
1169 2014-05-29 17:31:57 <wumpus> a miner may still take the transaction privately and mine it into a block, even after it has expired from the mempool for long
1170 2014-05-29 17:32:20 <sipa> ultimately, the mempool and many other non-normative resources should just be resource-limit (set a memory usage limit)
1171 2014-05-29 17:32:43 <wumpus> a resource limit makes sense
1172 2014-05-29 17:33:12 <sipa> but before that point becomes relevant/possible/implemented, i prefer not to extend the current implicit behaviour of essentially infinite mempool transactions
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1176 2014-05-29 17:36:18 <gavinandresen> sipa: ACK on a memory-limited mempool.  But "better is better"
1177 2014-05-29 17:36:33 pooler has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1178 2014-05-29 17:36:36 <wumpus> although the eviction order in that case has to be chosen carefully, if , to not make it predictably possible to flood all transactions from the mempool
1179 2014-05-29 17:37:55 <gavinandresen> I'll make three changes to the mempool save/restore code after lunch:  1) limit recursion for unconfirmed (to… uh… three? eleven?)  2) only save transactions we received in the last 25 blocks.  3) sanity-check data as it comes in (belt-and-suspenders for a corrupt mempool.dat)
1180 2014-05-29 17:38:42 <gavinandresen> ("comes in" meaning when restoring from disk)
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1182 2014-05-29 17:39:08 <sipa> gavinandresen: with the current low ratio between fee-needed-for-relay / fee-needed-for-reasonably-fast-inclusion-in-block, i think there's some decent risk of making mempools grow too fast, and removing the ability to restart your node to fix it sounds bad
1183 2014-05-29 17:39:15 <sipa> gavinandresen: ack on only saving recent transactions
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1186 2014-05-29 17:39:35 <gavinandresen> sipa: recovery is easy: rm mempool.dat and restart.
1187 2014-05-29 17:40:06 <gavinandresen> sipa: I thought of adding a command-line switch, but that seems like overkill when you can just 'rm' with no ill effects (except you lose fee estimation history)
1188 2014-05-29 17:40:36 <gavinandresen> mmm… I could save fee estimate data separately from mempool.dat… that is probably the right thing to do
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1192 2014-05-29 17:47:08 <wumpus> hmm, would it be possible to make the fee estimate data so that you don't need the actual saved mempool?
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1196 2014-05-29 17:49:27 <wumpus> I suppose not, as you don't know when the data can be discarded (when the transaction or a conflicting one makes it into a block) when you don't have the transaction itself anymore...
1197 2014-05-29 17:49:42 <sipa> wumpus: syntax error
1198 2014-05-29 17:50:04 <wumpus> huh?
1199 2014-05-29 17:50:13 <sipa> well, no, it makes sense gramatically, but i have no idea what you want to make it
1200 2014-05-29 17:50:45 <wumpus> well I mean storing data for fee computation separately from the mempool
1201 2014-05-29 17:51:02 <sipa> ah, for storing locally
1202 2014-05-29 17:51:07 <wumpus> restore some historical statistics but not the mempol itself
1203 2014-05-29 17:51:08 <wumpus> yes
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1221 2014-05-29 18:06:35 <hearn> hey there
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1223 2014-05-29 18:07:55 <hearn> sipa: i was looking at the disparity between what relays and what mines yesterday. seems most miners haven't upgraded to  0.9 because they simply aren't paying attention. there's no features in there for them, and 0.8.x works, so why change things?
1224 2014-05-29 18:08:02 <hearn> at least that's the answer i got from the one pool operator i asked :)
1225 2014-05-29 18:08:34 <hearn> i think a lot of people have a mindset that the only reason to upgrade bitcoin is for new features. other things that are done don't seem to register
1226 2014-05-29 18:08:45 <hearn> perhaps we need more of a splash around releases with more marketing. like a landing page on the website.
1227 2014-05-29 18:09:11 <sipa> but iirc the fee for decent fast inclusion is even more than the default relay fee in 0.8
1228 2014-05-29 18:09:19 <gmaxwell> The website may not be the best tool for marketing to an audience of ~3 people.
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1230 2014-05-29 18:10:20 <wumpus> even in features miners seem hardly interested, most pull requests aimed at miners hardly get any review/testing reports
1231 2014-05-29 18:10:32 <hearn> sipa: nah. the old default fee always works fine. but some people pay more in fees anyway, not sure why.
1232 2014-05-29 18:10:44 <hearn> sipa: some just haven't upgraded. they still pay the fees that were default >1 year ago.
1233 2014-05-29 18:11:02 <sipa> wumpus: yeah, to them, upgrading is just a burden often
1234 2014-05-29 18:11:13 <hearn> pools don't even list their policies on their web pages
1235 2014-05-29 18:11:31 <hearn> it's really sad, the state of mining. literally the only thing that seems to matter to most is getting the block reward
1236 2014-05-29 18:11:50 <hearn> not much we can do about it though, i guess, short of thinking up cool stuff that miners would want and putting it into releases
1237 2014-05-29 18:11:51 <sipa> well, that's what pays the bill :)
1238 2014-05-29 18:12:21 <gmaxwell> I mean, it took days to get some major pools to deploy a trivial three line patch to block the malleability flooding a few months ago, while the network was being attacked, and that was with me offering personal tech support and backporting to any version they wanted.
1239 2014-05-29 18:13:05 <wumpus> yes :/
1240 2014-05-29 18:13:47 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1241 2014-05-29 18:13:47 <hearn> at least you know how to contact them :) i was stymied by the completely worthless ghash.io front page
1242 2014-05-29 18:13:55 <hearn> not even an  email address
1243 2014-05-29 18:14:03 <hearn> oh well. i guess we have to muddle on through regardless.
1244 2014-05-29 18:15:43 <gavinandresen> Well, if I had infinite time I'd port p2pool to C++, make it really, really, really easy to install and run and then market to miners "DECENTRALIZED MUCH LOWER FEE"
1245 2014-05-29 18:16:19 <hearn> gavinandresen: i thought that too. then i noticed ghash.io has zero fee
1246 2014-05-29 18:16:24 <sipa> i doubt many would use it
1247 2014-05-29 18:16:30 <hearn> i'm not sure how they make money. presumably cross subsidised by cex.io or something else
1248 2014-05-29 18:16:38 <sipa> as it limits the variance decrease significantly if popular
1249 2014-05-29 18:16:41 <hearn> it's probably why they keep getting close to 51%
1250 2014-05-29 18:16:55 <gmaxwell> hearn: I think the model is the public users eat their stale losses (their hardware is super latent)
1251 2014-05-29 18:17:18 <hearn> well, that limits their losses, but they still have some costs, presumably
1252 2014-05-29 18:17:41 <hearn> especially as one other reason for their popularity appears to be that they just have lots of features and are generally appealing as a pool
1253 2014-05-29 18:17:51 moarrr_darkcoins is now known as moarrr
1254 2014-05-29 18:18:06 diesel_ has joined
1255 2014-05-29 18:18:25 <gmaxwell> well, for example if your own hardware results in a stale rate of 10% and you can get on another equal rate of users that are 1% stale and you pay them all equally...
1256 2014-05-29 18:18:32 fmope has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1257 2014-05-29 18:18:38 <maaku> not to mention that a significant subet of miners think choosing the largest pool is an optimal strategy
1258 2014-05-29 18:18:53 fmope has joined
1259 2014-05-29 18:18:57 <gmaxwell> hearn: hm? until somewhat recently it was basically impossible to figure out how to make an account even (you had to go to an unrelated domain and use an undocumented feature…)
1260 2014-05-29 18:19:17 <hearn> oh, ok. i'm just parroting what i read on the interwebs, really i know nothing about the modern mining scene
1261 2014-05-29 18:19:29 <gmaxwell> the largest pool has always had kissing-majority problems, presumably due to what maaku says.
1262 2014-05-29 18:19:47 <hearn> and yes i see what you mean now. they're mining on their own pool with bad (?) hardware and are willing to pay the costs of the extra users to offset their expensive mistake
1263 2014-05-29 18:20:23 <gmaxwell> hearn: yes, — well thats some speculation which apparears to be supported by the limited supporting data available.
1264 2014-05-29 18:20:27 Krellan_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1265 2014-05-29 18:20:31 <gavinandresen> We should crowdfund a lottery reward for people running p2pool.  E.g. p2pool miner that finds the next p2pool block after some date gets an extra 10BTC .....
1266 2014-05-29 18:20:56 <gavinandresen> … but only if they're running 0.9.2...
1267 2014-05-29 18:21:24 <gavinandresen> Anyway, I'm sure we could figure out a way of incentivizing good behavior
1268 2014-05-29 18:21:46 tjopper has joined
1269 2014-05-29 18:22:08 <gmaxwell> p2pool itself even has a lottery thing built in, e.g. load http://127.0.0.1:9332/patron_sendmany/10  and the output is a sendmany commandline to send 10 btc to recent p2pool miners hashpower-proportionally.
1270 2014-05-29 18:22:40 <gavinandresen> I actually think rewarding somebody at random would be a bigger incentive.  Makes it more of a game
1271 2014-05-29 18:22:58 <sipa> ... while pools exactly exist to make mining less of a game
1272 2014-05-29 18:23:20 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1273 2014-05-29 18:23:21 <gavinandresen> good point
1274 2014-05-29 18:24:05 <maaku> when p2pool first started there were significant subsidies given out by random people using the sendmany feature
1275 2014-05-29 18:24:19 <gmaxwell> that particular cgi takes an extra argument which is the minimum amount to pay someone.
1276 2014-05-29 18:24:26 <maaku> iirc ROI on using p2pool was 120% the expected solo mining return
1277 2014-05-29 18:24:33 <hearn> actually i think i started that
1278 2014-05-29 18:24:38 <hearn> i subsidised p2pool miners for a while
1279 2014-05-29 18:24:49 <hearn> back when it was brand new
1280 2014-05-29 18:24:49 alexykot has joined
1281 2014-05-29 18:24:49 <gmaxwell> It takes all the amounts less than that threshold and makes them into a single output given to one of the owed parties with odds proportional to their hashrate.
1282 2014-05-29 18:24:58 <hearn> but in the end it didn't shift the needle much. they got left behind by the asic race
1283 2014-05-29 18:25:10 moarrr is now known as moarrr_darkcoin
1284 2014-05-29 18:25:15 <gavinandresen> I think I tried to run p2pool once, and gave up because I was in python dependency hell.  Haven't tried recently
1285 2014-05-29 18:25:39 <sipa> i created a block using p2pool :P
1286 2014-05-29 18:25:47 <sipa> (i'm sure gmaxwell has many though...)
1287 2014-05-29 18:25:49 <gmaxwell> hm. on fedora it runs out of the box.
1288 2014-05-29 18:25:53 SpicyShibe is now known as DaQatz
1289 2014-05-29 18:25:58 <hearn> lots of miners are on windows, i guess
1290 2014-05-29 18:26:01 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, one last week, in fact.
1291 2014-05-29 18:26:06 <hearn> python was perhaps not the best choice for ease of deployment
1292 2014-05-29 18:26:07 <gmaxwell> windows p2pool is easy, there is a binary.
1293 2014-05-29 18:26:11 <hearn> (not that java is amazing either :-)
1294 2014-05-29 18:26:14 <hearn> oh, ok. good to know
1295 2014-05-29 18:26:20 <wumpus> on windows it's pretty easy to create an exe from python
1296 2014-05-29 18:26:29 <gmaxwell> There is a tool to 'compile' python to an exe for windows thats used.
1297 2014-05-29 18:26:34 <wumpus> yes
1298 2014-05-29 18:26:37 <hearn> right, that bundles the runtime
1299 2014-05-29 18:26:37 <gavinandresen> mmm.  OSX loses out again....
1300 2014-05-29 18:26:48 <hearn> i doubt many miners use macs
1301 2014-05-29 18:26:54 <wumpus> OSX is the most frustrating platform to distribute software again :p
1302 2014-05-29 18:27:00 <hearn> they're a bit expensive to tie up on feeding work to miners
1303 2014-05-29 18:27:08 <gmaxwell> yea, I think OSX is the confluence of bad there, no magic binary and no all-python-prereqs preinstalled.
1304 2014-05-29 18:27:34 diesel_ is now known as Dizzle
1305 2014-05-29 18:28:04 <gmaxwell> in any case, p2pool suffers from both the belief that the biggest pool pays more _and_ high variance due to being small, the mixture is particular deadly, since if you didn't really believe that you'd make as much and it takes three days to solve a block.. sadness.
1306 2014-05-29 18:28:25 <maaku> py2app?
1307 2014-05-29 18:28:33 <gmaxwell> P2Pool's expected time to a block now is about 18 hours, so three day runs without blocks happen.
1308 2014-05-29 18:28:56 <hearn> i used to think asics would make people worry about variance less, because you're in it for the long term
1309 2014-05-29 18:29:07 <hearn> i guess the upgrade cycles are still short enough that people don't think that way
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1311 2014-05-29 18:29:44 <gmaxwell> hearn: people are just weird, I've seen plenty of people complaining about variance, and then an hour later say something else that made it clear that they took their mining income and put played it on a gambling site as soon as they got it.
1312 2014-05-29 18:30:02 <hearn> hah, brilliant
1313 2014-05-29 18:30:32 <gmaxwell> p2pool lets you turn _up_ your share difficulty, so if you want to gamble, it's built in! :P but seems people don't think that way.
1314 2014-05-29 18:30:36 <maaku> well, they want to gamble every day not every 3 days :P
1315 2014-05-29 18:31:11 <sipa> we should relabel p2pool as "Ultimate Bitcoin Mining Casino"
1316 2014-05-29 18:31:21 <hearn> PoolDice
1317 2014-05-29 18:31:34 <sipa> The Dice Pool!
1318 2014-05-29 18:31:37 <hearn> JustSatoshiPoolDiceBones
1319 2014-05-29 18:31:51 <hearn> sipa: ooh the logo just draws itself :)
1320 2014-05-29 18:31:55 <gmaxwell> I'd commented before that it would be nice if mining software did some fun stuff to show you your best share found so far, perhaps let you commit some vanity string in it and output a little certificate text file.
1321 2014-05-29 18:32:31 <gmaxwell> (miners have since added a little best share display)
1322 2014-05-29 18:33:19 Namworld has joined
1323 2014-05-29 18:33:55 <belcher> i guess most people are salaried, rather than running a business where income is are more sporadic
1324 2014-05-29 18:34:15 <belcher> a paycheck on the same date each month feels nice
1325 2014-05-29 18:34:34 <belcher> its not how the world works though
1326 2014-05-29 18:35:41 moarrr_darkcoin is now known as moarrr
1327 2014-05-29 18:35:55 moarrr is now known as moarrr_bitcoin
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1331 2014-05-29 18:40:09 leofidus is now known as afk!~quassel@lionservers.de|leofidus-ger
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1334 2014-05-29 18:44:29 <gmaxwell> heads up, bc.i is erroniously claiming there was a 78 block reorg a few days ago and the internets are starting to freak out without questioning it.
1335 2014-05-29 18:45:13 DaQatz is now known as SpicyShibe
1336 2014-05-29 18:45:57 <hearn> i wonder what's going on over there. has ben left? he used to run a tight ship and it's just been falling to pieces there lately, and i didn't hear much from him lately.
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1341 2014-05-29 18:49:32 <gmaxwell> their stats have always been a bit lossy.
1342 2014-05-29 18:49:52 <gmaxwell> enough that there is a pinned thread in the mining subforum telling people to not believe it when it shows something freaky. :)
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1346 2014-05-29 18:50:21 <waxwing> random question, but has it been considered to put bitcoin core binary signatures,hashes into the blockchain?
1347 2014-05-29 18:51:00 kadoban has joined
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1351 2014-05-29 18:51:54 <denisx> waxwing: anybody can put stuff there, what would it help?
1352 2014-05-29 18:52:35 <waxwing> my thought was that, while pgp signatures are great and all, there is always an issue of trust in where they are posted. e.g. ssl certs of the website and so on.
1353 2014-05-29 18:52:45 <sipa> ...
1354 2014-05-29 18:52:48 Adlai has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1355 2014-05-29 18:52:54 <tyr1ck> for a CTransaction tx, how can I convert a string to the uint256 needed in tx.vin[0].prevout.hash
1356 2014-05-29 18:53:00 zrad has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1357 2014-05-29 18:53:08 <sipa> how is data in the blockchain more trusted than a website?
1358 2014-05-29 18:53:11 <belcher> print out the hashes in huge letters and display them at bitcoin conferences
1359 2014-05-29 18:53:29 <sipa> tyr1ck: ParseHex
1360 2014-05-29 18:53:41 <tyr1ck> that returns a vector of unsigned chars
1361 2014-05-29 18:53:47 <waxwing> sorry i'm not being very careful .. it's really keyserver vs blockchain, isn't it.
1362 2014-05-29 18:53:54 <sipa> actually, uint256 may even have a SetHex
1363 2014-05-29 18:54:13 <sipa> waxwing: no, the signatures would still be pgp signed of course
1364 2014-05-29 18:54:21 <sipa> so it is blockchain vs website
1365 2014-05-29 18:54:45 <tyr1ck> Where is SetHex
1366 2014-05-29 18:54:51 <wumpus> yes, it has a SetHex
1367 2014-05-29 18:54:59 w1zman has joined
1368 2014-05-29 18:54:59 <sipa> in uint256...
1369 2014-05-29 18:55:06 <hearn> waxwing: blockchain timestamps stuff. it doesn't really help establish trust.
1370 2014-05-29 18:55:31 grandmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1371 2014-05-29 18:55:49 chainey has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1372 2014-05-29 18:56:00 <tyr1ck> perfect, thx
1373 2014-05-29 18:56:29 moarrr_bitcoin is now known as moarrr
1374 2014-05-29 18:56:35 moarrr is now known as moarrr_darkcoin
1375 2014-05-29 18:56:46 the_2nd has joined
1376 2014-05-29 18:56:52 <waxwing> hearn, sipa right.
1377 2014-05-29 18:57:45 gonedrk has joined
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1381 2014-05-29 19:00:29 <michagogo> In theory, you could (for example) timestamp the sha256sums file
1382 2014-05-29 19:00:34 chainey has joined
1383 2014-05-29 19:00:35 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1384 2014-05-29 19:01:28 <michagogo> Which would prove Gavin didn't decide to (e.g.) replace the setup.exe with a different one
1385 2014-05-29 19:01:39 YoY has joined
1386 2014-05-29 19:01:45 <sipa> no
1387 2014-05-29 19:02:02 <michagogo> sipa: replace
1388 2014-05-29 19:02:04 MiningBuddy- has joined
1389 2014-05-29 19:02:06 <michagogo> Meaning, later
1390 2014-05-29 19:02:15 <sipa> right
1391 2014-05-29 19:03:04 aquarat2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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1396 2014-05-29 19:05:33 <hearn> it doesn't even do that
1397 2014-05-29 19:05:42 MiningBuddy has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1398 2014-05-29 19:05:43 <hearn> to use a timestamp in the block chain you must be able to find it
1399 2014-05-29 19:05:47 <hearn> that means you have to follow a pointer to the right place
1400 2014-05-29 19:05:51 <hearn> where is that pointer? on the website
1401 2014-05-29 19:06:04 <hearn> timestamping with twitter would be more reliable than putting something in the block chain
1402 2014-05-29 19:06:05 Adlai has joined
1403 2014-05-29 19:06:28 <waxwing> the pointer could be a public address gavin controls?
1404 2014-05-29 19:06:49 <waxwing> (although i'm not sure i understood what michagogo was proposing)
1405 2014-05-29 19:06:50 <hearn> and how do you learn that address?
1406 2014-05-29 19:07:07 <waxwing> hearn, yes you have that prob with pgp keys too
1407 2014-05-29 19:07:18 <hearn> indeed
1408 2014-05-29 19:07:51 <waxwing> i was more interested in the blockchain as a "transport layer" than the nature of the key doing the signing
1409 2014-05-29 19:07:57 grandmaster has joined
1410 2014-05-29 19:08:11 <waxwing> but you're probably right. mainly i'm a bit confused. just a bit suspicious there might be *some* useful trick somewhere.
1411 2014-05-29 19:09:11 <sipa> you seem to suffer from the hammer-and-nail syndromr
1412 2014-05-29 19:09:33 <sipa> blockchains are such cool technology thatnsomehow people assume they can solve every problem on earth
1413 2014-05-29 19:09:44 <waxwing> sipa, probably. or maybe i just think it would be cool if bitcoin was used to increase its own security :)
1414 2014-05-29 19:09:57 <sipa> i don't see how it would add anynsecurity
1415 2014-05-29 19:10:02 <hearn> if i had a bitcoin for every time i heard "... but on the block chain" i'd be a rich guy :)
1416 2014-05-29 19:10:09 ferroh has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1417 2014-05-29 19:10:36 <sipa> except for the case where an attacker could bloxk your ability to access the site, but not block your ability to download the blockchain
1418 2014-05-29 19:11:01 <waxwing> sipa, well, that case is hardly unthinkable, eh
1419 2014-05-29 19:11:56 <sipa> and only for tje case where the keys are already compromised
1420 2014-05-29 19:12:23 <sipa> widespread use of gitian verification would be far more valuable
1421 2014-05-29 19:12:36 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1422 2014-05-29 19:12:40 <waxwing> how many people are doing gitian builds?
1423 2014-05-29 19:12:43 <sipa> as it removes the need in trusting one or a few specific keys much more effectively
1424 2014-05-29 19:12:47 <sipa> too few
1425 2014-05-29 19:12:59 <waxwing> i am doing quite a lot. just not of bitcoin :)
1426 2014-05-29 19:13:23 <sipa> (and i haven't done thrm in a long time, so no finger pointing from me - jusy observation)
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1432 2014-05-29 19:21:22 <michagogo> sipa: did we find a way to strip code signing from Apple/MS deterministically?
1433 2014-05-29 19:21:57 <michagogo> (I mean, strip the signing and recover the original file(s))
1434 2014-05-29 19:22:22 <hearn> gavinandresen: do you remember why bip70 signs the entire PaymentRequest message and not just the PaymentDetails?
1435 2014-05-29 19:24:31 Vitalik_ has joined
1436 2014-05-29 19:25:01 dims has joined
1437 2014-05-29 19:26:02 <denisx> michagogo: the signing is not part of the binary AFAIK
1438 2014-05-29 19:26:21 <michagogo> denisx: it's part of the file
1439 2014-05-29 19:26:36 banghouse has joined
1440 2014-05-29 19:26:49 <michagogo> The setup.exe is produced deterministically from gitian
1441 2014-05-29 19:27:06 <denisx> michagogo: I meant the apple part
1442 2014-05-29 19:27:24 <michagogo> Gavin takes that .exe and signs it with the certificate in the name of the Foundation
1443 2014-05-29 19:27:36 <michagogo> denisx: ah, I have no idea how that works
1444 2014-05-29 19:28:01 <michagogo> (Except for the whole ".apps are actually folders" thing)
1445 2014-05-29 19:28:05 Vitalik__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1446 2014-05-29 19:28:38 andytoshi has joined
1447 2014-05-29 19:28:46 <denisx> michagogo: exactly, and there is another folder insie called “_CodeSignature”
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1456 2014-05-29 19:38:30 azariah_ is now known as azariah4
1457 2014-05-29 19:43:27 <coryfields> michagogo: yes, i have a PR coming up
1458 2014-05-29 19:43:37 <azariah4> Hi, would this testnet output script also be mined on mainnet by most nodes; is it considered standard? http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/866cbe1e7ee2cc38b65f7584a72fcb60e0f41a3b15a0934a72c63c52bee48ef2#o0
1459 2014-05-29 19:43:58 lclc has joined
1460 2014-05-29 19:44:05 <coryfields> michagogo: but it goes the other way around. We sign the binaries, detach the signatures, then pass them to gitian for reattaching for final builds
1461 2014-05-29 19:44:06 eoss has joined
1462 2014-05-29 19:44:43 <coryfields> denisx: the signature is indeed part of the binary
1463 2014-05-29 19:45:07 HaltingState has joined
1464 2014-05-29 19:46:53 <kadoban> azariah4: IIUC that is not standard.  You can kinda do the same thing and have it be standard if you use P2SH though for multisig
1465 2014-05-29 19:46:56 ferroh has joined
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1468 2014-05-29 19:49:59 <denisx> coryfields: on osx?
1469 2014-05-29 19:50:03 <hearn> coryfields!
1470 2014-05-29 19:50:08 <coryfields> yea
1471 2014-05-29 19:50:12 <coryfields> hearn!
1472 2014-05-29 19:50:23 <hearn> coryfields: what's your next project after the osx deterministic builds?
1473 2014-05-29 19:50:41 * sipa mumbles something about libsecp256k1
1474 2014-05-29 19:50:55 <coryfields> hearn: once we get the non-recursive make stuff shoved in, it's libsecp256k1
1475 2014-05-29 19:50:56 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1476 2014-05-29 19:51:02 minium has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1477 2014-05-29 19:51:19 <hearn> ok. more general question:  how do you decide what to work on?
1478 2014-05-29 19:51:30 <hearn> (which is obviously leading somewhere like ..... and how can i influence it :-)
1479 2014-05-29 19:51:38 <coryfields> heh
1480 2014-05-29 19:51:54 <coryfields> hearn: it's basically "what am i the biggest bottleneck for at the moment"
1481 2014-05-29 19:52:04 <coryfields> er.. smallest?
1482 2014-05-29 19:52:06 pierreatwork has joined
1483 2014-05-29 19:52:17 <coryfields> hopefully it won't always be that way, but is for now :)
1484 2014-05-29 19:53:04 lclc has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1485 2014-05-29 19:53:32 <coryfields> what do you have in mind?
1486 2014-05-29 19:53:40 <azariah4> kadoban: interesting, though doesn't this define it as standard? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp#L1215
1487 2014-05-29 19:54:46 <hearn> coryfields: i'm really hoping that someone, either you gavin or wladimir, starts work on resource scheduling this summer
1488 2014-05-29 19:54:59 <hearn> coryfields: this is the anti-DoS work where Core tries to schedule work intelligently inside its constraints.
1489 2014-05-29 19:55:10 <hearn> because right now the network is just so vulnerable to DoS attacks it's scary
1490 2014-05-29 19:55:17 <denisx> coryfields: but every file in the .app folder is code signed, so how do they sign images and stuff?
1491 2014-05-29 19:55:42 <coryfields> hearn: for now at least, that's beyond my scope
1492 2014-05-29 19:55:44 delll_ has joined
1493 2014-05-29 19:55:46 <hearn> so i like libsecp256k1 and think it's a good idea to use it by default, but i worry a lot more about DoS than openssl dependencies or raw performance right now
1494 2014-05-29 19:55:53 <hearn> how so?
1495 2014-05-29 19:56:03 <coryfields> hearn: at least, beyond my current knowledge
1496 2014-05-29 19:56:08 <hearn> ah, right
1497 2014-05-29 19:56:14 delll has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1498 2014-05-29 19:56:16 <sipa> i have some ideas about that
1499 2014-05-29 19:56:30 <hearn> we can guide you. the nice thing is, most of the changes are in parts of the code not many other people are touching
1500 2014-05-29 19:56:35 <hearn> things like the networking code
1501 2014-05-29 19:56:43 <hearn> so you wouldn't be conflicting with things like headers first
1502 2014-05-29 19:57:15 <coryfields> scope was the wrong word, i didn't wish that to mean that i have a line of what i will/won't do. Rather, I have a set of things that I'm good at and need some attention, so that's where I go first
1503 2014-05-29 19:57:32 <ajweiss> where are things at with headers-first/ibd stuff?  do you guys need any help there?
1504 2014-05-29 19:57:44 <coryfields> hearn: sure
1505 2014-05-29 19:57:49 <hearn> coryfields: yeah that's natural and understandable, but i feel there should be some overall prioritisation too
1506 2014-05-29 19:58:03 <hearn> some things are higher impact than others, etc
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1508 2014-05-29 19:58:27 <elichai2> petertodd: here?
1509 2014-05-29 19:58:28 <sipa> ajweiss: i've been working on it one patch at a time
1510 2014-05-29 19:58:35 <kadoban> azariah4: Hmm, maybe it is if I'm reading the code right?  I'm really not sure though
1511 2014-05-29 19:58:55 <coryfields> denisx: to my knowledge, binaries are codesigned, other resources are hashed. those hashes are moved to the Codesign files, and those files are embedded in the binaries
1512 2014-05-29 19:59:14 <ajweiss> are there any bits that can be sectioned off?  i'm looking for something to get my feet wet with the codebase...
1513 2014-05-29 19:59:36 <sipa> i think there are better ways to get started
1514 2014-05-29 20:00:06 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1515 2014-05-29 20:00:12 <ajweiss> sure, i just looked there because it was an obvious area that needs love... what do you suggest?
1516 2014-05-29 20:00:34 weilu has joined
1517 2014-05-29 20:00:44 <denisx> coryfields: no, the hashes are in the file CodeResources which is a plist. e.g. /Applications/Safari.app/Contents/_CodeSignature/CodeResources
1518 2014-05-29 20:00:45 <hearn> ajweiss: maybe hd wallets :)
1519 2014-05-29 20:01:52 <ajweiss> does anybody actually use the wallet code in core?
1520 2014-05-29 20:02:13 <hearn> sure
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1522 2014-05-29 20:02:44 <coryfields> denisx: right. forgot the exact name, but the rest stands.
1523 2014-05-29 20:03:18 <harding> ajweiss: somebody was saying the other day that a really useful way to get started was by writing more unit tests.  I'd like to write a doc on that when I get a chance, but if you're willing to write a test case and briefly document each step you took to write it, that would make my job much easier.
1524 2014-05-29 20:03:20 <denisx> what rest? ;)
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1526 2014-05-29 20:03:53 <hearn> ajweiss: for example bitstamp uses it
1527 2014-05-29 20:04:09 <hearn> ajweiss: probably lots of other places. there aren't a whole lot of great alternatives, actually. very few libraries implement a wallet.
1528 2014-05-29 20:04:50 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1529 2014-05-29 20:05:01 <coryfields> denisx: the rest of what i said. the hashes of those files are present in the binaries that use them. those binaries are signed.
1530 2014-05-29 20:05:06 <ajweiss> what about divorcing the wallet from the core?
1531 2014-05-29 20:05:07 <coryfields> in that sense, the resources are signed
1532 2014-05-29 20:05:17 <sipa> ajweiss: long term.project that nobody objects to
1533 2014-05-29 20:05:28 <sipa> ajweiss: but few seem to make time for as well :)
1534 2014-05-29 20:06:04 <ajweiss> i've largely been ignoring the wallet code, how intertwined is it?  or is it just a matter of expanding the rpc interface?
1535 2014-05-29 20:07:05 <ajweiss> i guess i can just grep through for the preprocessor ifdefs
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1537 2014-05-29 20:07:21 Nothing4You has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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1542 2014-05-29 20:09:41 <sipa> ajweiss: imho the only reasonable way is separating network/block info code out, and use that ad a common library to build both an spv wallet and a full node
1543 2014-05-29 20:09:56 <hearn> however, that is a giant pile of work
1544 2014-05-29 20:09:59 <sipa> using rpc means you're not really separating the validation code out
1545 2014-05-29 20:10:04 <hearn> probably not justifiable just on the grounds of cleanness or whatever
1546 2014-05-29 20:10:34 <sipa> just turning it into a fatter wallet server sysyem, that doesn't do more than moving tje private keys to a different process
1547 2014-05-29 20:10:43 <sipa> whichbis a good thing on itself, but ugly to do
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1549 2014-05-29 20:11:22 <hearn> ajweiss: there are probably smaller, simpler projects to get started with
1550 2014-05-29 20:11:30 <ajweiss> : )
1551 2014-05-29 20:12:59 <elichai2> sipa: any exciting news in the development?
1552 2014-05-29 20:13:05 <denisx> coryfields: ok, youre right, I codesigned a tool by hand and it changed the binary by 10kb
1553 2014-05-29 20:13:15 <ajweiss> i'm all ears for suggestions
1554 2014-05-29 20:13:33 Nothing4You has joined
1555 2014-05-29 20:13:45 <coryfields> denisx: heh, i've spent the past few days reverse-enginnering that process. I can share the details if you'd like.
1556 2014-05-29 20:13:57 <hearn> ajweiss: making Core do something sensible if it crashes or runs out of memory might be good. restarting, for example.
1557 2014-05-29 20:14:13 <sipa> hearn: file an issue :)
1558 2014-05-29 20:14:20 <denisx> coryfields: thanks, but I dont need that info
1559 2014-05-29 20:14:43 <sipa> (not that that will necessarily help, but at least it can be tracked)
1560 2014-05-29 20:15:17 <ajweiss> so a cross platform wrapper/crashreporter?
1561 2014-05-29 20:16:15 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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1564 2014-05-29 20:18:35 <harding> ajweiss: you have any packaging experience?  Fixing this issue could make installs easier and help get the node count back up: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4124
1565 2014-05-29 20:19:03 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1566 2014-05-29 20:19:16 <hearn> dunno about crash reporter, though there are libraries that print stack traces and other useful things. but i'm thinking something like fork(),waitpid()
1567 2014-05-29 20:19:19 <hearn> it doesn't have to be cross platform
1568 2014-05-29 20:19:29 <hearn> realistically most long-term stable nodes are going to run on linux
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1571 2014-05-29 20:20:26 <ajweiss> so these are linked
1572 2014-05-29 20:20:38 <ajweiss> proper packaging involves proper install
1573 2014-05-29 20:21:13 <ajweiss> where you can ask windows to restart services or something like daemontools
1574 2014-05-29 20:21:53 <hearn> lots of linux users don't use packages however. so that's why i'd like to see it be done by the binary itself
1575 2014-05-29 20:22:45 <ajweiss> true, i'm not sure how i feel about an automatically restarting binary though... that's unusual
1576 2014-05-29 20:23:09 <elichai2> any exciting news in developement?
1577 2014-05-29 20:23:11 Starduster has quit (Quit: connection reset by ... buy... bye... apple)
1578 2014-05-29 20:23:40 <ajweiss> the linux distro is pretty bare, how about some sample systemd/init/etc scripts that enable autorespawn features in systemd/upstart/daemontools/etc
1579 2014-05-29 20:25:01 <ajweiss> usually it seems a lot of automatic respawning type stuff is configured locally by the sysadmin
1580 2014-05-29 20:25:34 <coryfields> for linux, that's really not part of the job description for the application
1581 2014-05-29 20:25:47 <coryfields> fore the most part, the distro is responsible for service integration
1582 2014-05-29 20:25:48 <helo> can't really be distro-agnostic and provide integration
1583 2014-05-29 20:25:59 paveljanik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1584 2014-05-29 20:26:05 <hearn> we can forget about distros. they're more harm than help
1585 2014-05-29 20:26:20 <hearn> also it's important that running a node be as brainless as possible
1586 2014-05-29 20:26:31 <hearn> the more configuration that's required, the more hassle it is to run a node and the fewer people will do it
1587 2014-05-29 20:26:31 embicoin has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1588 2014-05-29 20:27:04 <coryfields> hearn: if that's your argument, there's nothing easier than apt-get install bitcoind
1589 2014-05-29 20:27:08 the_2nd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1590 2014-05-29 20:27:13 <coryfields> so imo your statements conflict
1591 2014-05-29 20:27:28 chmod755 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1592 2014-05-29 20:27:32 <hearn> invariably, that command will get you a crappy outdated version of bitcoin that probably has security problems and may have been patched by people with no understanding of the system
1593 2014-05-29 20:27:43 <coryfields> (not arguing for that route, just for the sake of argument)
1594 2014-05-29 20:27:47 <hearn> linux distros are sort of like the apple app store, except infinitely worse
1595 2014-05-29 20:28:04 <helo> the bitcoin ppa on ubuntu makes 'apt-get install bitcoind' work just fine
1596 2014-05-29 20:28:14 <hearn> there's a doc that's pgp signed by lots of us somewhere (i forgot the url) where we ask linux distros to not distribute bitcoin
1597 2014-05-29 20:28:18 <ajweiss> but how about somewhere in between?  like including init scripts and whatnot
1598 2014-05-29 20:28:19 MaxSan has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1599 2014-05-29 20:28:29 <ajweiss> systemd config
1600 2014-05-29 20:28:36 <sipa> i think distros work very well, they're just unfit for software that needs to be state of the art
1601 2014-05-29 20:28:45 <ajweiss> upstart, whatever... that covers a lot of ground and makes things fairly easy
1602 2014-05-29 20:28:52 <harding> yeah, good Linux packaging != being part of a distro
1603 2014-05-29 20:28:56 <sipa> and bitcoin unfortunately still requires frequent updating
1604 2014-05-29 20:29:05 <Ry4an> sipa: you can say that after all the awful things ubuntu has done w/ their mercurial packages over the years?
1605 2014-05-29 20:29:52 <ajweiss> i actually for the first time installed the official binary package today and the first thing i thought was "where's the init script?"
1606 2014-05-29 20:29:53 <hearn> ajweiss: you just named three different systems ... how is it simpler than just having bitcoind do it, itself?
1607 2014-05-29 20:30:05 <coryfields> hearn: and how would bitcoind do that?
1608 2014-05-29 20:30:20 dignork has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1609 2014-05-29 20:30:34 <hearn> fork at startup, monitor the child, if the child doesn't exit with a status code meaning "i was asked politely to exit" wait a few seconds and restart
1610 2014-05-29 20:30:52 <ajweiss> i'm not arguing simpler, it's just unusual and may anger the gods of unix...
1611 2014-05-29 20:30:55 <coryfields> hearn: that's a watchdog, not a startup daemon
1612 2014-05-29 20:30:59 <hearn> unix sux anyway :)
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1614 2014-05-29 20:31:28 <ajweiss> hahahaha
1615 2014-05-29 20:31:49 <ajweiss> yeah things like systemd and upstart have built in watchdog functionality now
1616 2014-05-29 20:33:00 <waxwing> hearn, doubtless you have a copy http://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf
1617 2014-05-29 20:33:08 <hearn> the barf bag?
1618 2014-05-29 20:33:37 eoss has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1619 2014-05-29 20:33:44 <hearn> ah yes
1620 2014-05-29 20:34:06 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1621 2014-05-29 20:35:24 MaxSan has joined
1622 2014-05-29 20:35:34 <ajweiss> (i'm looking at supervise from daemontools now)
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1626 2014-05-29 20:37:15 <wumpus> there are tons of tools that provide watchdog functionality, no need to build anything like that into bitcoind itself, my suggestion would be to integrate better with existing systems (ie, package configurations and scripts and such)
1627 2014-05-29 20:37:56 <comboy>  ee
1628 2014-05-29 20:38:04 <ajweiss> tell you guys what, i'll go out and dig up the right way to write systemd/upstart/etc skeletons and write up what i find in a github issue
1629 2014-05-29 20:38:16 <ajweiss> does that sound helpful?
1630 2014-05-29 20:38:19 <wumpus> yes
1631 2014-05-29 20:39:01 <coryfields> ajweiss: we could ship example configs, but not much more than that. Is that what you're after?
1632 2014-05-29 20:39:09 <wumpus> ajweiss: I could use that as well
1633 2014-05-29 20:39:34 <wumpus> coryfields: yes, example configs for setting up bitcoind as a system service
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1635 2014-05-29 20:40:12 <coryfields> in that case, sure. But they can only be guidelines. Only the distros know what the actual dependencies are
1636 2014-05-29 20:40:29 <wumpus> sure, but what if I want to set it up outside my distro?
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1638 2014-05-29 20:41:03 elichai2 has left ()
1639 2014-05-29 20:41:05 <hearn> i bet most people wouldn't use them, and then we'd still have the problem that a memory bloat attack or crash bug could be used to take out the entire network until people manually restart their nodes
1640 2014-05-29 20:41:06 <wumpus> you can't relay on distributions packaging it
1641 2014-05-29 20:41:11 <hearn> basically anything distro related - barf :)
1642 2014-05-29 20:41:18 <hearn> we're much better doing things ourselves
1643 2014-05-29 20:41:32 <wumpus> no, we're not better off doing things ourselves, that's very arrogant and wrong
1644 2014-05-29 20:41:33 dazedhead has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
1645 2014-05-29 20:41:39 <coryfields> wumpus: then you could use it as a guideline. But a base config won't account for things that a distro version could.
1646 2014-05-29 20:41:44 <coryfields> wumpus: agreed.
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1648 2014-05-29 20:42:19 <harding> coryfields: don't we already have a contrib/debian directory with everything needed to build an Ubuntu package?
1649 2014-05-29 20:42:24 <coryfields> distros serve a purpose. This is their _exact_ purpose. You can write them off and not use them, sure, but it's not reasonable to say that we're better at integrating with a user's system than them
1650 2014-05-29 20:42:38 <hearn> my view was formed from long experience with linux distributors constantly finding unique and painful ways to screw over a previous open source project i worked on
1651 2014-05-29 20:42:46 <wumpus> also we don't want to add responsibility to bitcoin core for things that are outside our direct scope
1652 2014-05-29 20:42:51 <ajweiss> if there had been a systemd unit file or a sample init script in the binary distribution i downloaded, i would have been appreciative
1653 2014-05-29 20:43:01 <ajweiss> i forgot i could look in the source
1654 2014-05-29 20:43:05 <hearn> they are _not_ reliable or trustworthy. that project stopped supporting distro-bundled stuff as well. but linux is so fragmented that relying on system services without distro bundling is a huge timesink
1655 2014-05-29 20:43:07 <wumpus> if it can be handled by something else it must be handled by something else
1656 2014-05-29 20:43:30 <hearn> really, linux is best seen as a kernel that supports a bunch of syscalls and not much else, for max reliability
1657 2014-05-29 20:43:32 <wumpus> of course if you want to make a user-friendly installer that sets up things for the user, like the tor bundle, that's great
1658 2014-05-29 20:43:48 <wumpus> but it won't be part of the bitcoind executable
1659 2014-05-29 20:43:58 <coryfields> hearn: you're not making any suggestions to improve the situation
1660 2014-05-29 20:44:07 <wumpus> no you're not being constructive hearn
1661 2014-05-29 20:44:17 <hearn> sure i did, this whole conversation was started by one - i suggested we integrate watchdogging into bitcoind
1662 2014-05-29 20:44:29 <coryfields> hearn: and that's not the discussion that we're having
1663 2014-05-29 20:44:32 <hearn> that's a constructive suggestion based on prior experience of linux software development
1664 2014-05-29 20:44:39 <coryfields> hearn: a watchdog launch script would be perfectly reasonable, i agree
1665 2014-05-29 20:44:57 <coryfields> but that does not help with the goal of launching at startup
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1667 2014-05-29 20:45:20 <ajweiss> watchdogging in bitcoind -> systemd/upstart do watchdogging -> job of distro -> distros are annoying -> ...
1668 2014-05-29 20:45:22 <hearn> hmm, where did that come into the picture? i didn't realise we were discussing that. yes obviously it's impossible for bitcoind to start itself on OS boot
1669 2014-05-29 20:45:46 <wumpus> you could start it from a crontab, that'd be the ghetto way :)
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1672 2014-05-29 20:46:06 <coryfields> hearn: from the linked bug, that was my take-away
1673 2014-05-29 20:46:22 <hearn> which linked bug?
1674 2014-05-29 20:46:28 <wumpus> but no, I want real integration into the operating system as services, not a bag of hacks
1675 2014-05-29 20:46:33 <hearn> ah, 4124?
1676 2014-05-29 20:46:33 <coryfields> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4124
1677 2014-05-29 20:46:51 <sipa> wumpus: +1
1678 2014-05-29 20:47:58 <coryfields> wumpus: agreed. ajweiss's suggestion to ship some example initd configs sounds like the most reasonable approach imo
1679 2014-05-29 20:48:20 <ajweiss> i'm looking at what apache does now
1680 2014-05-29 20:48:21 <coryfields> along with an example watchdog launcher
1681 2014-05-29 20:48:24 <hearn> if linux had some kind of usefully consistent API beyond what UNIX laid out in the '70s, i'd agree, but pragmatically it just doesn't.  so whether people would get this feature or not would be very spotty and probably they'd lose other features, like version updates and using reproducible binaries
1682 2014-05-29 20:48:28 <wumpus> coryfields: yes, for linux I think that's the most effective option, the best way would be to build PPA-like packages for all distros
1683 2014-05-29 20:48:35 <hearn> (For the auto setup case)
1684 2014-05-29 20:48:42 <wumpus> coryfields: but that'd need a lot of volunteers to maintain
1685 2014-05-29 20:49:11 <coryfields> wumpus: eh? why not just ship sysv/upstart/systemd configs and call it a day?
1686 2014-05-29 20:49:22 <hearn> (and if it's not auto, i guess lots of users won't configure it)
1687 2014-05-29 20:49:24 <coryfields> i was arguing that it wouldn't be _as_ integrated as a distro would, but it would work
1688 2014-05-29 20:49:42 <wumpus> coryfields: because it's easier if it's automatically set up
1689 2014-05-29 20:50:06 <wumpus> coryfields: for ubuntu it'd be pretty easy to make a PPA that automatically sets up a service, like apache
1690 2014-05-29 20:50:21 <coryfields> wumpus: in that case, opensuse has a rather universal builder that they've created for this purpose
1691 2014-05-29 20:50:38 <coryfields> *build-service
1692 2014-05-29 20:50:54 <wumpus> coryfields: then again *at this point* I'd be happy with example configs for upstart and al, the rest can follow from that
1693 2014-05-29 20:51:14 <warren> wumpus: does this mean you would also ship something to auto-generate rpcuser and rpcpassword?
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1695 2014-05-29 20:51:33 <wumpus> warren: yes
1696 2014-05-29 20:51:51 <coryfields> wumpus: or (outside the box suggestion) we could create packages for distros that launch a dummy at startup
1697 2014-05-29 20:52:01 <coryfields> with instructions for a user to grab the official binaries
1698 2014-05-29 20:52:14 <coryfields> apt-get install bitcoin-system-integration
1699 2014-05-29 20:52:15 <ajweiss> the distros would never accept that
1700 2014-05-29 20:52:21 <wumpus> warren: but it would be a walletless build, so it wouldn't be a big deal
1701 2014-05-29 20:52:30 <harding> ajweiss: they already do for proprietary software like flash.
1702 2014-05-29 20:52:40 <wumpus> ajweiss: no problem as the packages would be maintained outside the distribution repos
1703 2014-05-29 20:52:41 <helo> (that is a good point)
1704 2014-05-29 20:52:43 <ajweiss> yeah but nobody likes it
1705 2014-05-29 20:52:45 <wumpus> ajweiss: the the ppas already are
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1707 2014-05-29 20:53:04 <harding> ajweiss: yeah, well, what wumpus said about it being walletless makes more sense anyway.
1708 2014-05-29 20:53:30 <ajweiss> debian already ships bitcoin-qt and bitcoind separately
1709 2014-05-29 20:53:39 <wumpus> wallets should be private to users, but the node can run server-wide
1710 2014-05-29 20:53:43 <helo> cue discussion about whether we want auto-update distros to automatically update node versions
1711 2014-05-29 20:54:08 <ajweiss> hahahahahaha nothing is ever simple!
1712 2014-05-29 20:54:35 <wumpus> helo: almost all distributions already have a way to freeze packages
1713 2014-05-29 20:54:47 <coryfields> heh, that's enough for me for one day. I'm going to go hack on something
1714 2014-05-29 20:54:51 <ajweiss> i guess ultimately it comes down to a balance of making things easy to get the node counts up, or making things harder and requiring more competent sysadmins
1715 2014-05-29 20:55:29 <ajweiss> making things easy involves full packaging and all the rest, but then distros have control over distribution
1716 2014-05-29 20:55:38 <wumpus> ajweiss: right, we aren't there yet anyway, so no need to worry about it
1717 2014-05-29 20:56:34 <wumpus> ajweiss: not necessarily, almost all distributions allow adding third-party repositories which the vendor can maintain themselves
1718 2014-05-29 20:56:37 <ajweiss> so assuming that things are rougher and require more competent sysadmins, providing skeleton service definition files might be nice
1719 2014-05-29 20:57:36 <ajweiss> and having them use watchdog features of systemd and upstart by default would move more twoards the goal that hearn originally suggested
1720 2014-05-29 20:58:53 Skirmant has joined
1721 2014-05-29 20:58:55 <ajweiss> or maybe this is the wrong place to jump in. :)
1722 2014-05-29 20:59:23 <wumpus> well I have a few debian boxes that I run bitcoind on, and it'd be useful to have upstart/systemd config files for turning those into system services
1723 2014-05-29 21:00:33 <wumpus> I'm knowledgeable enough to install the configuration files myself, but don't have time to find out how they work in detail and write the scripts
1724 2014-05-29 21:00:35 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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1726 2014-05-29 21:01:29 weilu has joined
1727 2014-05-29 21:01:56 <tyr1ck> can anyone tell me why the hash of the following transaction is not correct
1728 2014-05-29 21:01:57 <tyr1ck> http://pastebin.com/PxMxX3KG
1729 2014-05-29 21:02:15 <tyr1ck> I was modeling the following http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/3152f2b037474abfea33f97a041d9efef287c80cce20a5dc859103c91c714dd6
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1732 2014-05-29 21:03:11 <warren> wumpus: should they auto-restart upon crash as shipped?
1733 2014-05-29 21:04:35 <wumpus> warren: yes
1734 2014-05-29 21:05:02 hearn has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1735 2014-05-29 21:05:18 <wumpus> warren: the point is to keep them running
1736 2014-05-29 21:05:59 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1737 2014-05-29 21:06:42 <ajweiss> so the idea would be a friendlier binary package with some sample startup scripts and suggested install instructions
1738 2014-05-29 21:07:44 <ajweiss> (put this in /usr/local, create a user, drop this in /etc/systemd/...)
1739 2014-05-29 21:07:52 <wumpus> right
1740 2014-05-29 21:08:06 <ajweiss> ok i can throw something together for that
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1742 2014-05-29 21:12:12 <kiddouk> wumpus: I think that provided a .deb and .yum package would be more benefitial for everyone. It would ease the adoption/installation and help spread the new releases. + Less work for the admin sys.
1743 2014-05-29 21:12:27 da2ce7_laptop has joined
1744 2014-05-29 21:13:00 <wumpus> kiddouk: please read a bit back
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1747 2014-05-29 21:15:21 <wumpus> kiddouk: as I said, having ready-made packages for all major distributions that can be installed would be the most useful, but that would require an army of volunteers to maintain
1748 2014-05-29 21:15:38 <wumpus> kiddouk: and the first step anyway would be what ajweiss proposes
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1750 2014-05-29 21:17:42 <wumpus> from that it'd be a matter of packaging the gitian executables (no need to even build per distribution specifically) + the system scripts/configs + adapt that for each distribution, and put it into packages
1751 2014-05-29 21:18:57 <kiddouk> agreed.
1752 2014-05-29 21:19:06 <wumpus> it can be done but will require a lot more people to cooporate, which I don't see happening yet
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1759 2014-05-29 21:25:30 <tyr1ck> Hm, I just figure out my issue
1760 2014-05-29 21:25:57 <tyr1ck> in the following tx : http://blockexplorer.com/tx/3152f2b037474abfea33f97a041d9efef287c80cce20a5dc859103c91c714dd6 why is the sigScript two different entries?
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1762 2014-05-29 21:27:20 <kiddouk> tyr1ck: it's not. blockexplorer separates the signature from the public key
1763 2014-05-29 21:27:27 <kiddouk> I am looking at the raw transaction.
1764 2014-05-29 21:27:28 <wumpus> it pushes two things on the stack: the public key and the signature
1765 2014-05-29 21:28:23 <tyr1ck> Then why didn't this tx (The previous) have two http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/7754093d94f0a182bf356074694f3ba4bdcd3342a7e630c2a8f1e0e68aa9330c
1766 2014-05-29 21:29:49 <gwillen> tyr1ck: because the transaction it's spending wasn't a standard pay-one-person transaction
1767 2014-05-29 21:29:59 <gwillen> or rather
1768 2014-05-29 21:30:08 <wumpus> well, different kinds of scripts are possible
1769 2014-05-29 21:30:13 <gwillen> the two transactions were spendg outputs with different scripts
1770 2014-05-29 21:30:18 <gwillen> I don't actually know waht the different scripts do
1771 2014-05-29 21:30:18 <kiddouk> tyr1ck: the answer is in th scriptPubKey in http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/60daddff291bb490421c9d74d94d35842296a56c42ca9d0261924c896523f9e8
1772 2014-05-29 21:30:27 <gwillen> but look at the outputs in ... yes, what kiddouk just linked
1773 2014-05-29 21:30:46 <tyr1ck> There has to be a separation,  People I had to ParseHex() << ParseHex(); the one with two in order to get a proper hash
1774 2014-05-29 21:30:50 <wumpus> the only requirement is that the scriptSig provides the right input to the scriptPubKey
1775 2014-05-29 21:31:01 <tyr1ck> the previous was done with a single ParseHex() call
1776 2014-05-29 21:31:20 <gwillen> it looks like the other one has a whole pubkey in it
1777 2014-05-29 21:31:22 <gwillen> instead of just an address
1778 2014-05-29 21:31:25 <gwillen> which is kind of weird
1779 2014-05-29 21:31:33 <gwillen> I've never seen one like that
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1787 2014-05-29 21:34:29 <wumpus> sending to a pubkey is the most basic and AFAIK oldest type of output
1788 2014-05-29 21:34:43 <gwillen> ahhhh, so it's a very old TX
1789 2014-05-29 21:34:45 <gwillen> that would make sense
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1793 2014-05-29 21:36:50 <wumpus> it was used in coinbases for a long time, no idea if it's still common there
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1795 2014-05-29 21:39:06 <sipa> bitcoind-generated blocks still do
1796 2014-05-29 21:39:15 <sipa> but no blocks are generated by bitcoind anymore
1797 2014-05-29 21:39:16 <gwillen> ahhhh, *nods*
1798 2014-05-29 21:39:34 <sipa> at least not without passing through gbt first, which allows changing the coinbase outputs
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1802 2014-05-29 21:43:54 <kiddouk> wumpus: suprisingly the Debian package is more up to date than the .deb ubuntu (taken from debian and repackaged by MOTU). Chance are that the Debian Bitcoin Package Team would be willing to assist in easing the work down the road.
1803 2014-05-29 21:44:14 <tyr1ck> So even though there was only 1 input, 2 separate scripts were needed?
1804 2014-05-29 21:44:54 <kiddouk> tyr1ck: no. There is only one script. *always*. Sometimes the script can contain 2 input, sometmes it contains only one.
1805 2014-05-29 21:44:56 <wumpus> it is one script with two pushes
1806 2014-05-29 21:44:59 <gwillen> tyr1ck: if you're talking about the "two entries" in scriptsig, that isn't two scripts, that's a script with two instructions
1807 2014-05-29 21:45:14 <gwillen> tyr1ck: each instruction is "push this huge number onto the stack"
1808 2014-05-29 21:45:21 <gwillen> one of them represents a public key, and the other a signature
1809 2014-05-29 21:45:43 <kiddouk> tyr1ck: to complement my answer. It is valid for any 1-to-1 transaction only.
1810 2014-05-29 21:45:56 <tyr1ck> I see.
1811 2014-05-29 21:46:51 <tyr1ck> So given that tx, and the previous one.  I should be able to verify the signature right?
1812 2014-05-29 21:47:17 <wumpus> yes, that is the idea of validation
1813 2014-05-29 21:47:29 <wumpus> (well, one of the steps of it)
1814 2014-05-29 21:47:45 <tyr1ck> I am trying to use VerifyScript()
1815 2014-05-29 21:48:41 <tyr1ck> VerifyScript(txA.vin[0].scriptSig,  txB.vout[1].scriptPubKey, txB, txA.vin[0].prevout.n, STANDARD_SCRIPT_VERIFY_FLAGS, 0);
1816 2014-05-29 21:49:23 <tyr1ck> From what I am reading, it seems the above construction is correct (Where txA is previous to txB)
1817 2014-05-29 21:49:55 <tyr1ck> However, the function is returning false. =/
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1829 2014-05-29 22:02:07 <cornfeedhobo> hello, am i to understand that https://github.com/ditto-b/bitcoin/commit/c5a9d2ca9e3234db9687c8cbec4b5b93ec161190  stops the mining repetition cycle?
1830 2014-05-29 22:02:20 <cornfeedhobo> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3842/commits *
1831 2014-05-29 22:03:09 <maaku> correct
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1833 2014-05-29 22:03:50 <maaku> it fixes the 4 distributions per mibillenium problem
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1835 2014-05-29 22:04:15 <cornfeedhobo> when was it determined to be a "problem"?
1836 2014-05-29 22:04:48 <cornfeedhobo> seems like Peter said it best "We should make use of the ~250 years we have to study this issue more carefully."
1837 2014-05-29 22:05:06 <cornfeedhobo> did it really need to be addressed now?
1838 2014-05-29 22:05:18 <maaku> that was sarcasm. why not address it now?
1839 2014-05-29 22:05:59 aquarat2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1840 2014-05-29 22:06:31 <maaku> the fix was trivially easy and puts bitcoin back in compliance with the social contract
1841 2014-05-29 22:07:02 <cornfeedhobo> i was not aware of a social contract...
1842 2014-05-29 22:07:10 <cornfeedhobo> s/was/am/
1843 2014-05-29 22:07:56 <cornfeedhobo> this saddens me
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1845 2014-05-29 22:08:46 <maaku> cornfeedhobo: nonsense. you got involved in bitcoin with an understanding of what it was, no?
1846 2014-05-29 22:08:59 <maaku> that common shared understanding is the social contract
1847 2014-05-29 22:09:24 <gwillen> since the change is already in, I don't think the philosophical ramifications of it are critical
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1849 2014-05-29 22:11:19 <cornfeedhobo> maaku: i got in pretty early, alot of things have occured that i never expected to be apart of a "social contract"
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1851 2014-05-29 22:12:36 <maaku> yes well i've had my disagreements too. but one of the few things there is near-unanimous consent on is that bitcoin is supply limited
1852 2014-05-29 22:12:51 <maaku> (this is coming from the guy who helped write one of the first non-supply limited alts)
1853 2014-05-29 22:13:20 <sipa> oh come on, this is obviously a bug to everyone :)
1854 2014-05-29 22:13:21 <cornfeedhobo> i never thought that was the key selling point
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1856 2014-05-29 22:13:36 <gwillen> cornfeedhobo: I would say it's _a_ key selling point
1857 2014-05-29 22:13:38 <maaku> so if you have some feature which is core to the currency, which everyone assume is true,
1858 2014-05-29 22:13:39 <cornfeedhobo> (limited supply that is)
1859 2014-05-29 22:13:43 <sipa> even if you disagree with the social contract, the code was just undefined
1860 2014-05-29 22:13:48 <gwillen> anyway, given that it's undefined behavior in C, I think fixing it is very clearly correct
1861 2014-05-29 22:13:49 <sipa> it was not well-defined C++ code
1862 2014-05-29 22:13:51 <wumpus> cornfeedhobo: the old behavior is a problem because it is dependent on undefined behavior in the c++ compiler, it is not reliably as described in BIP42, the compiler may also just kill the program
1863 2014-05-29 22:13:51 <gwillen> yes, what sipa said
1864 2014-05-29 22:13:51 <maaku> and then some geeky guy with a copy of the C++ standard comes by and shows you how because of a bug it is not true, of course you fix it
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1866 2014-05-29 22:14:27 <cornfeedhobo> sipa: fair point
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1868 2014-05-29 22:14:46 <cornfeedhobo> sipa: but seems applicable to many other things that have been kept :)
1869 2014-05-29 22:14:54 <sipa> such as?
1870 2014-05-29 22:14:55 <cornfeedhobo> wumpus: indeed
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1873 2014-05-29 22:16:01 <sipa> i know of no undefined behaviour in the current codebase
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1875 2014-05-29 22:16:21 <sipa> and there are certainly bugs present, but none so easily fixable as this one, which would only take effect in 245 years
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1877 2014-05-29 22:16:52 <cornfeedhobo> sipa: i dont think i will be able to make an off the top reference
1878 2014-05-29 22:17:00 <sipa> and given bitcoin's nature, consensus is more important than correctness
1879 2014-05-29 22:17:35 <sipa> of course, if a bug would allow stealing people's money, or allow bypassing the subsidy limits, or double spending, there would be no way around changing it immediately
1880 2014-05-29 22:17:52 <cornfeedhobo> i hear this a lot, but how is it determined? just by those who stay active on the github pull requests?
1881 2014-05-29 22:18:05 <sipa> no, by those who choose the run it
1882 2014-05-29 22:18:30 <cornfeedhobo> run it?
1883 2014-05-29 22:18:33 <sipa> you
1884 2014-05-29 22:19:03 <maaku> cornfeedhobo: changing the github repo doesn't mean a darn thing if no one runs that code
1885 2014-05-29 22:19:04 <cornfeedhobo> i stopped using the ref client some time ago for various reasons
1886 2014-05-29 22:19:05 <sipa> to change a consensus rule in the system, _everyone_ must upgrade/change their bitcoin nodes
1887 2014-05-29 22:19:19 <maaku> don't like how bitcoin is going, fork it and get people to use your fork
1888 2014-05-29 22:19:19 <cornfeedhobo> thats a
1889 2014-05-29 22:19:22 <cornfeedhobo> oops
1890 2014-05-29 22:19:23 <sipa> (not just miners, not just 50%, and not just bitcoind)
1891 2014-05-29 22:19:43 <sipa> if a change is controversial, it simply won't happen, as people wouldn't upgrade
1892 2014-05-29 22:19:52 <sipa> which would result in a hard fork of the chain
1893 2014-05-29 22:20:04 <cornfeedhobo> fair enough. but presupposes people are aware of the changes
1894 2014-05-29 22:20:09 <netg_> 50% of the miners means = the 2 admins of the two biggest pools
1895 2014-05-29 22:20:16 <netg_> not more and not less
1896 2014-05-29 22:20:16 <cornfeedhobo> i dont think anyone using repos to update combs changelogs
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1898 2014-05-29 22:20:24 <sipa> netg_: for a soft forking change, yes
1899 2014-05-29 22:20:24 <maaku> well, an 'economic majority' -- if the people who don't adopt are small enough, they will feel compelled in the end
1900 2014-05-29 22:20:42 <sipa> netg_: but to change the consensus rules, every full node has to be changed, not just miners
1901 2014-05-29 22:21:04 <sipa> cornfeedhobo: you're very welcome to follow changes, and cry out loud if you find a problem
1902 2014-05-29 22:21:16 <maaku> in fact, please do
1903 2014-05-29 22:21:19 <maaku> we need more people doing that
1904 2014-05-29 22:21:40 <sipa> binaries are produced through a deterministic process, so you can even verify yourself that the published binaries match the source code
1905 2014-05-29 22:21:40 <cornfeedhobo> sipa: well, i an not a vocal type. there is a reason you guys dont see me often
1906 2014-05-29 22:21:50 <cornfeedhobo> but maybe you are right, someone should
1907 2014-05-29 22:21:56 <wumpus> yes, more people that review the code would be very welcome
1908 2014-05-29 22:22:15 <sipa> as linus says: many eyes make all bugs shallow
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1910 2014-05-29 22:22:39 * cornfeedhobo looks at heartbleed
1911 2014-05-29 22:22:41 <cornfeedhobo> :-/
1912 2014-05-29 22:22:52 <netg_> bad example
1913 2014-05-29 22:22:58 <netg_> as not many eyes looked at openssl
1914 2014-05-29 22:23:01 <cornfeedhobo> (i know, it was a cheap shot =P)
1915 2014-05-29 22:23:04 <netg_> hehehe
1916 2014-05-29 22:23:17 <sipa> well, if anything, openssl *should* have had many eyes, given how much builds on top of it
1917 2014-05-29 22:23:20 <sipa> ... but it's a mess
1918 2014-05-29 22:23:26 <cornfeedhobo> right?!
1919 2014-05-29 22:23:46 <cornfeedhobo> anyways, well thanks for answering me and not telling me to just screw off :)
1920 2014-05-29 22:23:49 <sipa> (and we're trying to get rid of openssl in bitcoind too...)
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1924 2014-05-29 22:25:37 <cornfeedhobo> when btcd is done, i plan to take a stab at development. maybe then i'll understand more
1925 2014-05-29 22:25:58 <netg_> your the btcd dev?
1926 2014-05-29 22:26:16 <netg_> sorry mixed up with another client ;)
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1928 2014-05-29 22:27:09 <cornfeedhobo> no, i am not
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1930 2014-05-29 22:27:13 <cornfeedhobo> just a devoted fan
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1933 2014-05-29 22:27:27 <netg_> i really like "bitc"
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1935 2014-05-29 22:27:32 <netg_> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=428765.0
1936 2014-05-29 22:27:39 <netg_> but thats offtopic here, i stop, sorry
1937 2014-05-29 22:27:46 <cornfeedhobo> ah, i am talking about conformal's project
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1939 2014-05-29 22:27:53 <netg_> yo
1940 2014-05-29 22:27:54 * cornfeedhobo stops too
1941 2014-05-29 22:28:22 <maaku> many eyes looking at openssl was how heartbleed was eventually found (by the good guys!)
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