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 138 2014-05-31 02:10:22 <rabbits> hi. i'm trying to compile a win qt using gitian. but i seem to have a snag where it's not succesfully connecting to update repositorys.
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 144 2014-05-31 02:17:03 <rabbits> when running  the compile in the vm, i'm get a "could not connect to 10.0.2.2:3142"
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 146 2014-05-31 02:18:17 <rabbits> i've precompiled the appropriate boost/bticoin deps/ qt zips already. so am currently attemptgin the actual gitian.yml
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 183 2014-05-31 03:07:40 <justanotheruser> Does sendfrom actually effect which outputs are used, or is it just for recordkeeping?
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 293 2014-05-31 04:37:35 <im_hiring> hello all
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 311 2014-05-31 04:57:50 <im_hiring> anyone alive inhere?
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 334 2014-05-31 05:32:15 * xk002 guys im gonna leave all channels.. due to lack of attention at 20 irc networks atsame time. <3 to all i met. and thanks for everything
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 337 2014-05-31 05:33:42 * xk002 time to reconfigure autojoin to the less possible #'s
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 339 2014-05-31 05:35:34 <sipa> justanotheruser: just record keeping
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 376 2014-05-31 06:13:42 <fanquake> ;;blocks
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 429 2014-05-31 07:33:10 <Krellan> Question about the RNG in bitcoind: How good is it, for rolling up wallets?
 430 2014-05-31 07:33:30 <Krellan> I noticed bitcoind doesn't have the "move your mouse and type random keys for a few seconds" screen, that a lot of other crypto programs do.
 431 2014-05-31 07:33:37 sirk390 has joined
 432 2014-05-31 07:33:52 <Krellan> Does it fully trust OpenSSL to always provide good RNG?
 433 2014-05-31 07:34:24 <Krellan> Reason is, the "ping" feature I added, it uses the RNG also, I don't want to exhaust the pool of entropy by something fairly frivolous like "ping".
 434 2014-05-31 07:34:44 <Krellan> Would like to have wallet use something like /dev/random and ping use /dev/urandom.
 435 2014-05-31 07:35:03 <Krellan> Then we save the high quality entropy for important stuff like wallet.
 436 2014-05-31 07:35:42 <gmaxwell> Krellan: it uses the system random source already.
 437 2014-05-31 07:37:02 <Krellan> Which is the system random source?
 438 2014-05-31 07:37:14 <gmaxwell> /dev/(u)random.
 439 2014-05-31 07:37:23 <Krellan> Is there a way to distinguish between the two?
 440 2014-05-31 07:37:26 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 441 2014-05-31 07:37:31 <gmaxwell> (and /dev/urandom is also a high quality entropy source, the only significant distinction is bypassing the more or less worthless entropy estimator, and thus doesn't block, which is good because the blocking is pretty much devistating to software usability)
 442 2014-05-31 07:37:47 spinza has joined
 443 2014-05-31 07:38:06 <Krellan> I thought /dev/random was supposed to be the best randomness.
 444 2014-05-31 07:38:19 <Krellan> The ping feature clearly needs fast randomness (not necessarily good)
 445 2014-05-31 07:38:32 <gmaxwell> It's purely a certificational distinction. They're both the same— a pool of data processed by sha1.
 446 2014-05-31 07:38:50 <gmaxwell> and the ping randomness does need to be cryptographic, if we want to use it for reliable latency testing.
 447 2014-05-31 07:38:57 <gmaxwell> (otherwise the far end can forge responses)
 448 2014-05-31 07:39:02 <Krellan> True.
 449 2014-05-31 07:39:28 <Krellan> So there's no real difference between /dev/random and /dev/urandom?
 450 2014-05-31 07:39:36 <Krellan> I always thought there was a quality difference.
 451 2014-05-31 07:40:29 <gmaxwell> /dev/random blocks, thats pretty much it. No, they're both the same CSPRNGs type with (hopefully random) system input. The distinction is that /dev/random has a entropy estimator that makes it block.
 452 2014-05-31 07:40:46 <Krellan> pv < /dev/urandom > /dev/null
 453 2014-05-31 07:40:52 <Krellan> Plenty fast, I get 4.5 MB/sec on my machine
 454 2014-05-31 07:41:12 <Krellan> Is there ever a danger of getting predictable random numbers by outstripping the entropy?
 455 2014-05-31 07:41:18 <gmaxwell> no.
 456 2014-05-31 07:41:59 <gmaxwell> which is pretty worthless because it's not very good (there is a nice paper tearing it apart), and because it only matters if you assume sha1 is invertable and that the attacker has captured enough of the prior output and all of the future input to recover the 4kbit interior state.
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 458 2014-05-31 07:42:23 <Krellan> Good to know that.
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 460 2014-05-31 07:42:54 <Krellan> I wonder if feeding the RNG with something like the low bit of the microphone audio input would help
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 464 2014-05-31 07:43:32 <Krellan> You're good at cryptography :)
 465 2014-05-31 07:43:37 <gmaxwell> and if that bit is always zero?  ... better to use all the data, this is what cryptographic hashes are for.
 466 2014-05-31 07:43:56 <Krellan> True, you'd have to sample the input for a while, and if bit never changes (microphone unplugged) then can't use it.
 467 2014-05-31 07:43:57 <gmaxwell> Though people tend to get unhappy if their software is 'secretly' recording their mic.
 468 2014-05-31 07:44:21 <Krellan> Dialog box "We need to generate some randomness.  Please blow into microphone for 5 seconds."
 469 2014-05-31 07:44:26 <gmaxwell> Krellan: mic unplugged doesn't produce all zeros input, you get analog noise.
 470 2014-05-31 07:44:43 <gmaxwell> Krellan: I'd rather have the user play a video game. :P
 471 2014-05-31 07:44:55 <gmaxwell> thus no finniky OS specific hardware access. :)
 472 2014-05-31 07:45:01 xenog has joined
 473 2014-05-31 07:45:26 <Krellan> Good enough
 474 2014-05-31 07:46:57 <Krellan> OK, thanks, that puts to rest a worry I had about the ping feature hogging all the RNG
 475 2014-05-31 07:47:47 <gmaxwell> right, with a cryptographic rng there is no limit to the amount of randomness you can get, assuming the cryptographic assumptions hold.
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 696 2014-05-31 11:17:55 <tianrui81317> is there any /r/bitcoin moderator here?
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 699 2014-05-31 11:18:01 <tianrui81317> I was banned
 700 2014-05-31 11:20:57 <tianrui81317> 	I even can't find how to appeal.， Sorry but it's not the atmosphere we are proud of as a libertarian。
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 706 2014-05-31 11:23:08 <petertodd> cornfeedhobo: my "more carefully" comment was quite adequately resolved by sipa's bip
 707 2014-05-31 11:24:14 * cornfeedhobo heads back to github and the wiki for a second look
 708 2014-05-31 11:24:23 <cornfeedhobo> petertodd: thanks for following up :)
 709 2014-05-31 11:24:56 <petertodd> cornfeedhobo: ha, waiting for a plane :)
 710 2014-05-31 11:25:02 <cornfeedhobo> hahaha
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 757 2014-05-31 12:38:22 <chichov> if a comment is not provided in e.g. sendfrom or sendmany, is it then set to an empty string ("") or to a special N/A value?
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 973 2014-05-31 16:50:17 <ProfMac> A small group is practicing with 2 of 3 multisig, with a view of escrow like services, in #bitcoin-bad-buyer  We are using the testnet.  This conversation may interest some developers.
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 979 2014-05-31 16:53:57 <Hasimir> quick query, anyone from the Bitcoin Armory dev team wander through here from time to time?
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1034 2014-05-31 18:12:29 <ProfMac> I have errors on testnet.  error: {"code":-2,"message":"Safe mode: Warning: The network does not appear to fully agree! Some miners appear to be experiencing issues."}  disablesafemode=1 gives a workaround.  version 90100
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1066 2014-05-31 18:48:03 <RichardCMongler> "no altcoin/... support"
1067 2014-05-31 18:48:06 <RichardCMongler> huh
1068 2014-05-31 18:48:07 sahlhoff has joined
1069 2014-05-31 18:48:13 <RichardCMongler> where could I go to get altcoin development help?
1070 2014-05-31 18:48:25 aquarat2 has joined
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1072 2014-05-31 18:48:52 <moarrr> - /join #idiots
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1075 2014-05-31 18:49:41 <RichardCMongler> no luck
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1079 2014-05-31 18:50:56 <Luke-Jr> RichardCMongler: helping you find altcoin development help is also off-topic here
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1082 2014-05-31 18:54:41 <moarrr> yeh RichardCMongler, even thinking about altcoin development is off-topic :P
1083 2014-05-31 18:54:58 <RichardCMongler> kinda seems like it looking at bitcoinstats.com
1084 2014-05-31 18:55:14 <RichardCMongler> I clicked on about 12 links and didn't even see the term "altcoin" mentioned
1085 2014-05-31 18:55:22 <RichardCMongler> This channel is a bit too creepy for me
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1088 2014-05-31 18:57:20 * Luke-Jr decides to hang out in ##altcoin-dev so there's somewhere to send people before they complain about no alternative
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1091 2014-05-31 18:59:45 <BlueMatt> ;;seen jgarzik
1092 2014-05-31 18:59:45 <gribble> jgarzik was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 15 hours, 9 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <jgarzik> posita, topic just fine for -dev :)
1093 2014-05-31 19:00:57 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: I saw him on twitter only maybe an hour ago
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1115 2014-05-31 19:26:14 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, word
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1140 2014-05-31 20:07:27 <PLM3> Hey bitcoiners. How do regular RHEL/CENTos users install OpenSSL for bitcoin? compile from source?
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1142 2014-05-31 20:13:09 <andytoshi> PLM3: this is what i do. gmaxwell has (had?) an RPM though to avoid this
1143 2014-05-31 20:13:18 <andytoshi> a ssl RPM with the EC stuff compiled in
1144 2014-05-31 20:13:39 <andytoshi> https://people.xiph.org/~greg/openssl/
1145 2014-05-31 20:13:45 <PLM3> Is it in some public repo?
1146 2014-05-31 20:14:18 <andytoshi> not that i know of
1147 2014-05-31 20:14:33 Application has joined
1148 2014-05-31 20:16:48 <PLM3> andytoshi: thanks for the link, but ... openssl-1.0.1e :D
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1152 2014-05-31 20:21:17 <andytoshi> lol! fwiw there is basically no heartbleed exposure in bitcoind.. type !heartbleed in #bitcoin to see. but agreed i wouldn't want that on my system
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1201 2014-05-31 21:11:37 <roybadami> Are there know issues with using BIP70 with Bitcoin Core and BitPay (i.e. payment works, but a delayed timeout error)?
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1203 2014-05-31 21:12:06 <roybadami> (0.9.1)
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1240 2014-05-31 22:02:01 xploder has joined
1241 2014-05-31 22:02:14 <xploder> hi from sunny NZ
1242 2014-05-31 22:03:08 <xploder> any devs available to talk about transport layer improvements to decrease latency accross the network?
1243 2014-05-31 22:05:08 <gmaxwell> What do you want to talk about?
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1245 2014-05-31 22:06:35 <xploder> tcp/nc and derivatives of the same technology that can either half the bandwidth required per transaction or speed up propagation across the network
1246 2014-05-31 22:07:09 <gmaxwell> xploder: you mean like, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/block_network_coding
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1248 2014-05-31 22:08:15 <xploder> i read your link, this is what i was thinking A Bandwidth Breakthrough
1249 2014-05-31 22:08:32 <xploder> http://www.technologyreview.com/news/429722/a-bandwidth-breakthrough/
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1251 2014-05-31 22:09:00 <gmaxwell> That article is a popular press article that says nothing.
1252 2014-05-31 22:09:26 SubCreative is now known as Sub|music
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1254 2014-05-31 22:09:45 <xploder> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1008.0420.pdf
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1256 2014-05-31 22:11:16 <gmaxwell> I haven't done measurements but I would be surprised if our activity were ever loss mediated except during IBD— we don't sustain throughput long enough to really keep the window open.
1257 2014-05-31 22:13:29 <xploder> there is a method of doubling the speed or size of packet data utilizing the same bandwith, effective for wireless in the first instance, but could be modified to simply carry more data for wired connections
1258 2014-05-31 22:13:57 <xploder> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1008.0420.pdf
1259 2014-05-31 22:16:16 ferroh has joined
1260 2014-05-31 22:16:57 <xploder> http://arxiv.org/pdf/0911.5667.pdf
1261 2014-05-31 22:17:27 <gmaxwell> xploder: There is no such method except in loss-limited channels.
1262 2014-05-31 22:17:55 <gmaxwell> xploder: note their figure 4 in the second paper, the bandwidth is substantially higher for plain tcp when the loss is low.
1263 2014-05-31 22:18:24 <arubi> hey, sorry to barge, are there any known attacks against the node network? (I'll rephrase my question if it's not clear)
1264 2014-05-31 22:18:31 <xploder> the same forward error correction channel, rather than carry redundant data can be used to simply carry more data per packet
1265 2014-05-31 22:19:26 <gmaxwell> What I proposed actually does reduce bandwidth usage, by taking advantage of already sent (but unknown to be sent) data, but this can't be done at a very low level.. its just exploiting the inherent redundancy of the flooding network
1266 2014-05-31 22:19:31 <gmaxwell> arubi: Sorry, thats not clear.
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1268 2014-05-31 22:19:58 <gmaxwell> xploder: You cannot send more data than just sending it, in a lossless channel. The pigeonhole principle precludes it.
1269 2014-05-31 22:20:12 <xploder> note their figure 4 in the second paper, the bandwidth is substantially higher for plain tcp when the loss is low.    correct if no loss or congestion is present there is no difference or point in using tcp/nc, but the same channel can be used to carry non redundant data
1270 2014-05-31 22:20:54 <arubi> gmaxwell, I mean, I know about attacks against the hashrate, like a 51% attack. That affects the mining aspect of bitcoin. What about an attacker going after bitcoin core nodes? what can she achieve given huge resources?
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1272 2014-05-31 22:21:33 <sipa> DoS attacks are certainly possible with huge resources
1273 2014-05-31 22:21:37 <sipa> of various types
1274 2014-05-31 22:21:38 <gmaxwell> xploder: yes, thats exactly what you get when you use plain TCP, all the channel capacity is being used for data.
1275 2014-05-31 22:21:52 <gmaxwell> arubi: what precisely do you mean by "bitcoin core nodes"?
1276 2014-05-31 22:21:53 <arubi> what is the service being denied sipa?
1277 2014-05-31 22:22:24 <sipa> arubi: serving other nodes
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1279 2014-05-31 22:22:29 <arubi> gmaxwell, any nodes really, which do what a typical node does on the network, like relaying tx's or blocks (or whatever(
1280 2014-05-31 22:22:31 <gmaxwell> arubi: e.g. someone could flood most of the nodes off the network, so then other people couldn't connect to them and they would take a long time to synchronize with the network, things like that— denial of service.
1281 2014-05-31 22:23:01 <arubi> alright, and is there any mitigation in the protocol  against that?
1282 2014-05-31 22:23:02 <arubi>  code
1283 2014-05-31 22:23:07 <gmaxwell> arubi: okay the use of the word "core" there suggested to me that you thought there were bitcoin servers.
1284 2014-05-31 22:23:10 <arubi> protocol or code
1285 2014-05-31 22:23:39 <sipa> i'd say that the majority of the core code in one way or another tries to protect against DoS attack
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1287 2014-05-31 22:24:02 <sipa> by doing cheap validations first, by rate limiting things, by requiring fees, by setting resource limits, ...
1288 2014-05-31 22:24:22 <xploder> using normal TCP any loss is attributed to congestion, causing congestion controll to kick in even in wired connections. tcp/nc can "mask" the losses with redundant data or simply carry more data without congestion control "slowdowns
1289 2014-05-31 22:24:31 <arubi> so is that a sane attack vector at all currently sipa ?
1290 2014-05-31 22:24:50 <sipa> but if 'huge resources' means 'arbitrarily high resources', you can probably knock out any node you can connect to
1291 2014-05-31 22:24:59 <xploder> slow downs from miss atributed conjestion are mittigated
1292 2014-05-31 22:25:06 <gmaxwell> arubi: it wouldn't achieve much.
1293 2014-05-31 22:26:19 <arubi> that's good to hear, so there's no reason no not trust the "view" of the network as seen be my node. Correct?
1294 2014-05-31 22:26:28 <gmaxwell> xploder: Yes, if you break congestion control you can get higher speed, but you will _severely_ piss off other users of the network. Even with congestion control bitcoin manages to irritate some users today.
1295 2014-05-31 22:26:31 <xploder> tcp/nc subverts the stack and allows for much higher bandwidth utilization
1296 2014-05-31 22:27:07 <sipa> arubi: if your node is sybilled for a long time (hours, days, ...), a sub-51% attacker can probably make you believe transactions confirmed that didn't
1297 2014-05-31 22:27:10 <gmaxwell> arubi: well trust it for what?
1298 2014-05-31 22:27:33 <sipa> that's probably the worst attack (barring 51%) you can suffer
1299 2014-05-31 22:28:07 <arubi> sipa, wow.. gmaxwell , trust that I'm seeing what any other random node does (hight, mempool state etc.)
1300 2014-05-31 22:28:28 <xploder> im not talking about ignoring congestion, i am talking about being able to attribute loss correctly so that the congestion algorithm correctly attributes and deals with loss
1301 2014-05-31 22:28:30 <sipa> there is no guaranteed consensus for the mempool
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1303 2014-05-31 22:28:49 <arubi> exactly what I was trying to understand
1304 2014-05-31 22:28:56 <sipa> arubi: so now we're talking about data you'd extract from your trusted node
1305 2014-05-31 22:29:05 <arubi> no trust
1306 2014-05-31 22:29:20 <sipa> well obviously you trust your own node
1307 2014-05-31 22:29:31 <arubi> I was trying to figure out if bitcoin's mempool /is/ a consensus
1308 2014-05-31 22:29:34 <sipa> no
1309 2014-05-31 22:29:41 <sipa> doesn't try to be
1310 2014-05-31 22:29:44 <sipa> and can't be
1311 2014-05-31 22:29:48 <gmaxwell> xploder: it's likely that most nodes expirence ~0 non-congestion related loss.
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1313 2014-05-31 22:30:18 <arubi> well, wow.
1314 2014-05-31 22:30:24 <sipa> arubi: the contents of your mempool depends on how long your node has been running, for example
1315 2014-05-31 22:30:42 <sipa> and in case of a (0-conf) double spend, the version you see first will end up in your mempool
1316 2014-05-31 22:30:48 <sipa> others may see the other version first
1317 2014-05-31 22:30:59 <arubi> sipa, true, but if it's been running for more than 30 seconds, wouldn't mempool sync?
1318 2014-05-31 22:31:03 <sipa> no
1319 2014-05-31 22:31:30 <sipa> if it's running for a few hours, it very likely matches *mostly* that of other nodes
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1321 2014-05-31 22:32:04 <arubi> I understand there's the edge case of an extremely new node, but a few hours is a lot more than I had in mind for a full "mempool state" sync.
1322 2014-05-31 22:32:28 <sipa> well, some transactions take more than a few blocks to end up in a block
1323 2014-05-31 22:32:36 <sipa> those transactions remain in the mempool until they're mined
1324 2014-05-31 22:32:49 <sipa> if you haven't seen them when they were announced, you don't have them
1325 2014-05-31 22:32:52 <arubi> are those tx's designed to do that?
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1327 2014-05-31 22:33:05 <sipa> transactions are data
1328 2014-05-31 22:33:19 <sipa> how long it takes to be mined is up to miners and the policies they implement
1329 2014-05-31 22:33:23 <xploder> do you have any conjestion/loss statistics for the network?
1330 2014-05-31 22:33:40 <arubi> to mine, yes, but even to relay to nodes, by other nodes?
1331 2014-05-31 22:33:40 <sipa> xploder: it's pointless to measure that for the internet
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1334 2014-05-31 22:34:09 <sipa> arubi: a transaction (which will take hours to confirm) is broadcast right before you start your node
1335 2014-05-31 22:34:25 <sipa> arubi: until that transaction is mined, your mempool will lack it, while others on the network will have it
1336 2014-05-31 22:34:37 <arubi> ah, true.
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1338 2014-05-31 22:36:23 <xploder> sipa well your right but im trying to understand how to explain that congestion control is still enforced, although loss is correctly attributed and mitigated, and while this system was designed to sort out conjestion/loss on wireless networks it could be retasked to simply carry more data per packet on a wired network
1339 2014-05-31 22:37:11 <arubi> so I'd have to start my node on a somewhat specific time window in order to "miss" some transaction. That's a big enough edge case for me to not trust the information given by my own node completely.
1340 2014-05-31 22:37:20 <xploder> more effective use of bandwidth per packet = reduced latency or more data per packet
1341 2014-05-31 22:39:38 <xploder> the faster the nodes can communicate, the more data can be sent in the same amount of time so larger blocks can be propagated without fear of large block sizes
1342 2014-05-31 22:39:39 <sipa> arubi: the only assumption you can make is that transactions in your mempool are valid wrt your current blockchain state, except for potential double spends
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1344 2014-05-31 22:41:23 <sipa> xploder: that'd only make a difference on lossy networks
1345 2014-05-31 22:41:32 <sipa> xploder: for example when you're on a bad wireless
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1347 2014-05-31 22:41:56 <sipa> most links you're likely to use between full nodes have very low loss
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1350 2014-05-31 22:43:54 <xploder> i agree, but instead of encoding redundant data for FEC you simply encode novel data into the packet = more data per packet
1351 2014-05-31 22:44:32 <sipa> TCP doesn't have any redundant data, apart from some headers
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1353 2014-05-31 22:45:24 <arubi> sipa, yes. So I understand now that a node would not try to tell another node about the state of mempool, nor a node would request that data from another node.
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1355 2014-05-31 22:45:46 <sipa> arubi: indeed
1356 2014-05-31 22:46:12 <sipa> arubi: the protocol supports that, but it's not done (as it would make some non-confirming transactions live forever)
1357 2014-05-31 22:46:31 <arubi> tx's are relayed independently, and if I've missed one, and my node ends up relaying a double spend, it shouldn't be a problem since I'm the minority.
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1359 2014-05-31 22:46:56 <arubi> right, partly because for this ^
1360 2014-05-31 22:47:02 <sipa> there's basically 0 guarantees about how well your mempool corresponds with future blocks
1361 2014-05-31 22:47:05 <sipa> just best effort
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1363 2014-05-31 22:47:55 <arubi> so given 7000 - 8000 (?) nodes on the network, how feasible is a DoS of this kind?
1364 2014-05-31 22:48:26 <Luke-Jr> depends on the strength of the nodes
1365 2014-05-31 22:48:34 <Luke-Jr> probably 99% can be wiped out by a DDoS
1366 2014-05-31 22:48:36 <arubi> how is that measured?
1367 2014-05-31 22:48:45 <Luke-Jr> DDoSing them? :P
1368 2014-05-31 22:48:49 <Luke-Jr> (it isn't)
1369 2014-05-31 22:49:01 <arubi> we need more nodes :)
1370 2014-05-31 22:49:55 <Luke-Jr> all the nodes in the world can't stop a DoS on a p2p system really. :|
1371 2014-05-31 22:50:14 <arubi> unless relaying information is really expensive
1372 2014-05-31 22:50:18 <Luke-Jr> DoS can always reduce it to strongest2strongest
1373 2014-05-31 22:50:20 <arubi> or wasteful
1374 2014-05-31 22:50:29 <sipa> arubi: if you're talking about your own node being attacked, 1000 or 1000000 nodes on the network makes 0 difference
1375 2014-05-31 22:50:52 <arubi> sipa, I'm talking about the entire network being attacked
1376 2014-05-31 22:50:55 <Luke-Jr> arubi: a few months ago, 50% of a trans-atlantic backbone was wasted DDoSing Eligius
1377 2014-05-31 22:51:06 <Luke-Jr> think of that being put against the peers on the p2p network
1378 2014-05-31 22:51:29 <arubi> that seems like it would be much more destructive
1379 2014-05-31 22:51:36 <sipa> arubi: why would anyone do that against the whole network?
1380 2014-05-31 22:51:42 <xploder>    TCP doesn't have any redundant data, apart from some headers     agreed,           but tcp/nc does  it carries "extra" error correction data encoded "off the back" of the packet data, this "channel" can provide redundant information ie error correction or novel data upto 40%
1381 2014-05-31 22:52:02 <sipa> xploder: i think you need a basic introduction to information theory
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1383 2014-05-31 22:52:48 <sipa> xploder: if you add the error correction data to packets to compensate for losses, and then remove it because there are no losses (replacing it with normal data again), you end up with just tcp
1384 2014-05-31 22:53:00 <arubi> sipa, I'm not sure.. is there no monetary incentive like getting a double spend in a block?
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1386 2014-05-31 22:53:23 <sipa> arubi: there are far more effective ways to do that
1387 2014-05-31 22:53:35 <arubi> there are?
1388 2014-05-31 22:53:41 <sipa> arubi: DDoS'ing nodes will affect propagation of both
1389 2014-05-31 22:53:51 <sipa> arubi: yes, send the conflicting one directly to a few miners
1390 2014-05-31 22:53:59 <arubi> attack a single node to make him think the legit tx is in mempool
1391 2014-05-31 22:54:13 <arubi> attack the rest to propagate the double spend?
1392 2014-05-31 22:54:32 <xploder> i was told you cant send more information in a packet than can fit in the data space, it was believed for a long time, this tcp/nc is actually doing three things differently than standard tcp
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1394 2014-05-31 22:54:55 <sipa> xploder: you're confused
1395 2014-05-31 22:55:44 <sipa> it really doesn't matter what that protocol is doing; you can't send more than the bandwidth of the channel
1396 2014-05-31 22:55:48 <arubi> sipa, you could send it to miners directly, but that's "playing outside the rules". I'm trying to figure out a vector with no hashing power involved
1397 2014-05-31 22:56:05 <sipa> arubi: there is no hashing power involved in sending data directly to miners
1398 2014-05-31 22:56:18 <arubi> not from your end, right
1399 2014-05-31 22:56:29 <sipa> another way is making one of both transaction have a long chain of dependencies
1400 2014-05-31 22:56:33 <xploder> i though so too till i saw a 10x speed up in lossey/noisey wireless networks
1401 2014-05-31 22:56:34 <sipa> so it propagates slower
1402 2014-05-31 22:56:51 <sipa> xploder: yes, i have no doubt that you can gain a ton in lossy networks
1403 2014-05-31 22:57:05 <arubi> oh that's interesting, what can these dependencies be?
1404 2014-05-31 22:57:35 <sipa> arubi: other transactions
1405 2014-05-31 22:57:35 <Luke-Jr> arubi: there is no "the mempool"; there is *your* mempool, *my* mempool, *Joe's* mempool
1406 2014-05-31 22:57:35 <arubi> so many inputs?
1407 2014-05-31 22:57:35 <Luke-Jr> arubi: there is no universality to them
1408 2014-05-31 22:57:37 <sipa> xploder: but you can't send more than the bandwidth of the channel, and in non-lossy situations tcp is very close to optimal
1409 2014-05-31 22:59:12 <arubi> Luke-Jr, yea, I've learned that
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1411 2014-05-31 22:59:12 <Luke-Jr> [22:50:44] <arubi> attack a single node to make him think the legit tx is in mempool <-- this makes no sense, in other words..
1412 2014-05-31 22:59:12 <arubi> Luke-Jr, that's what I'm thinking about. someone with 10000 nodes can make your mempool be one way, one affecting everyone else's to be another
1413 2014-05-31 22:59:12 <sipa> with 1 node they can do that too
1414 2014-05-31 22:59:12 <arubi> Luke-Jr, right, should've been more specific
1415 2014-05-31 22:59:12 <Luke-Jr> arubi: even in normal conditions, no two mempools are likely to be the same
1416 2014-05-31 22:59:59 <arubi> sipa, really?!
1417 2014-05-31 22:59:59 <arubi> I really should read more on how nodes exchange information.. I thought I have :(
1418 2014-05-31 22:59:59 <sipa> arubi: yes, send a slow-to-validate transaction to you, and broadcast a fast-to-validate one to everyone else
1419 2014-05-31 23:00:03 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ooooooooooh, there's an interesting approach
1420 2014-05-31 23:01:27 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that's how SD was being attacked...
1421 2014-05-31 23:01:27 <Luke-Jr> sipa: really? I wasn't aware
1422 2014-05-31 23:01:27 <sipa> (is?)
1423 2014-05-31 23:01:27 <xploder> TCP in non lossy/noisy WIRED connections still suffer from congestion window changes that effect  goodput, the re-encoding (network coding) can be used for either redundant data or novel data over the same packet
1424 2014-05-31 23:01:27 <Luke-Jr> too much FUD blaming Eligius for its spamfilters, covered up the truth for me ;)
1425 2014-05-31 23:01:27 <arubi> sipa, I thought SD was attacked by double spending using a strong pool
1426 2014-05-31 23:01:27 <sipa> arubi: they were presumably attacked in every way possible :)
1427 2014-05-31 23:01:27 <arubi> so mining a double spend of a losing SD game
1428 2014-05-31 23:02:10 <arubi> how would your method work then?
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1430 2014-05-31 23:02:10 <Luke-Jr> arubi: make a 10 kB transaction for the bet, and a 0.2 kB transaction to double spend it.
1431 2014-05-31 23:02:17 <Luke-Jr> the 10 kB one takes 50 times longer to validate, and propagates that much slower
1432 2014-05-31 23:04:21 <sipa> xploder: i'm looking forward to your experimental bitcoin tcp/nc protocol then
1433 2014-05-31 23:04:21 <Luke-Jr> exponentially, I think
1434 2014-05-31 23:04:21 <xploder> you can send more data per packet (same size) and keep the congestion window open more for optimal bandwidth useage and "extra data over the same packet
1435 2014-05-31 23:04:21 <arubi> oh, that's what the "to you" meant, I see
1436 2014-05-31 23:04:21 <arubi> that's very interesting.. thanks.
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1438 2014-05-31 23:08:45 <xploder> i had hoped i could supply the relevant information on designs so that a variant specifically taylored to your needs could be developed
1439 2014-05-31 23:09:00 <xploder> with the idea that by increasing goodput over the same bandwidth i could help decrease the network propagation times
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1444 2014-05-31 23:10:56 <xploder> or decrease the amount of time OR bandwidth consumed downloading the blockchain
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1446 2014-05-31 23:15:37 <xploder> sipa thanks for taking the time to talk to me :)
1447 2014-05-31 23:15:37 <xploder> sipa: thanks for taking the time to talk to me
1448 2014-05-31 23:15:37 <sipa> yw :)
1449 2014-05-31 23:15:37 <xploder> tell gaven i said hi :)
1450 2014-05-31 23:17:48 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1451 2014-05-31 23:17:48 <sipa> ;;later tell gavinandresen < xploder> tell gaven i said hi :)
1452 2014-05-31 23:17:48 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1453 2014-05-31 23:17:48 <xploder> thanks
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1456 2014-05-31 23:24:40 <Luke-Jr> you'd think we have an office or something :P
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