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   8 2014-06-06 00:08:54 <cfields> sipa: PASS: test/test_bitcoin
   9 2014-06-06 00:09:05 <cfields> looks like your rebase held up
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  11 2014-06-06 00:09:34 <cfields> sipa: want me to pull that into my branch?
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  26 2014-06-06 00:20:25 <sipa> cfields: go ahead
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  28 2014-06-06 00:21:15 <cfields> ok. will get it cleaned up and pushed out tomorrow. thanks for the quick rebase
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 256 2014-06-06 04:42:31 <petertodd> ooh! I found another varient of the OP_RETURN bug! so in early bitcoin the scriptSig and scriptPubKey were concatenated bytewise, rather than as opcodes, which meant the scriptSig could end with a PUSHDATA opcode that encompassed all or part of the scriptPubKey. if all in most cases you could trivially return true. then as is now there's nothing that actually checks that either scriptSig or scriptPubKey is well formed except EvalScript()
 257 2014-06-06 04:43:19 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 258 2014-06-06 04:44:18 * petertodd wonders if LukeJr's CHECKHASHVERIFY made that same mistake...
 259 2014-06-06 04:50:14 <petertodd> ...and no, too bad
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 261 2014-06-06 04:52:28 <Belxjander> Heya petertodd
 262 2014-06-06 04:52:34 <petertodd> hi
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 267 2014-06-06 05:00:11 <jgarzik> petertodd, yet another data point in favor of my desire to make sure scripts are well formed.  Sadly, byte-wise is what OP_IF and friends want
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 269 2014-06-06 05:01:35 <justanotheruser> petertodd: what are the arguments for BIP16 over 17?
 270 2014-06-06 05:03:10 <petertodd> jgarzik: what do you mean by "what OP_IF and friends want"? pushdata's are evaluated inside unevaluated OP_IF branches; a >520byte pushdata in such a branch makes the whole script invalid
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 276 2014-06-06 05:07:02 <petertodd> justanotheruser: bip16 was argued to be dead simple, bip17 would have avoided some nasty limits, like the 520byte redeemscript limit, and could have let you specify multiple possible redeemscripts
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 281 2014-06-06 05:07:29 <justanotheruser> petertodd: dead simple to interact with right? Implementation ignored
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 786 2014-06-06 07:18:20 <maaku> justanotheruser: question doesn't make sense
 787 2014-06-06 07:18:54 <michagogo> justanotheruser: huh?
 788 2014-06-06 07:19:23 <justanotheruser> h(tx1, h(tx2, h(tx3)))
 789 2014-06-06 07:19:26 <michagogo> In the merkle trees, if any step has an odd number of elements, you hash the odd element out with itself
 790 2014-06-06 07:19:35 <justanotheruser> oh...
 791 2014-06-06 07:19:58 <justanotheruser> I thought it was just hashed with the hash of its brother node
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 793 2014-06-06 07:20:07 <justanotheruser> which might have children
 794 2014-06-06 07:20:38 <maaku> merkle trees in general can be arbitrarily complex
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 796 2014-06-06 07:20:45 <maaku> merkle trees as used in bitcoin are really merkle lists
 797 2014-06-06 07:20:52 <maaku> there is no concept of an unbalanced tree
 798 2014-06-06 07:21:02 <maaku> all transactions are at the same depth
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 801 2014-06-06 07:21:08 <michagogo> So if you have 3 transactions, their root is H(H(H(TX1)|H(TX2))|H(H(TX3)|H(TX3)))
 802 2014-06-06 07:21:12 <michagogo> (I think)
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 809 2014-06-06 07:29:16 <justanotheruser> michagogo: oh I see. Makes sense
 810 2014-06-06 07:29:23 <justanotheruser> thanks maaku too
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 823 2014-06-06 07:44:35 <shadowbroker> is there a summary of the bitcoin core roadmap i can read?
 824 2014-06-06 07:44:42 <shadowbroker> or does such a thing even exist? lol
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 826 2014-06-06 07:49:06 <wumpus> shadowbroker: closest would be looking at the unmerged pulls on github
 827 2014-06-06 07:49:30 <shadowbroker> heh i thought that might be the case
 828 2014-06-06 07:49:35 <shadowbroker> it just seems that there would be a more...
 829 2014-06-06 07:49:41 <shadowbroker> coordinated effort? lol
 830 2014-06-06 07:49:58 <wumpus> I'm sure there is, in the minds of the people that contribute
 831 2014-06-06 07:50:31 <wumpus> I mean you could do a mailing list post "what are you working on or intend to work on"
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 833 2014-06-06 07:51:11 <shadowbroker> people still use mailing lists? jeez
 834 2014-06-06 07:53:07 <wumpus> everyone serious about bitcoin development should at least follow the bitcoin development list
 835 2014-06-06 07:53:17 <wumpus> long-term proposals are posted there, too
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 837 2014-06-06 07:54:00 <shadowbroker> link please?
 838 2014-06-06 07:54:56 <Jouke> people still use irc?
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 840 2014-06-06 07:55:15 <maaku> shadowbroker: this isn't the type of project that has a roadmap
 841 2014-06-06 07:55:19 <dsnrk> shadowbroker: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bitcoin+mailing+list&l=1
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 844 2014-06-06 07:56:12 <wumpus> if you want to browse the archives, http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.bitcoin.devel  is more convenient than the sourceforge interface
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 959 2014-06-06 10:10:28 <gdm85> devrandom: it turns out SendEnv= doesn't really do what it advertizes. see also https://bugzilla.mindrot.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1285
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 972 2014-06-06 10:27:47 <gdm85> for now in those docker container templates I maintain I unset the LC_* variables in .bash_profile, it's the easiest workaround for newbies
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 991 2014-06-06 10:49:50 <Hasimir> decisions, decisions ... do I try 0.9.2rc1 or not?  Guys, how flakey is this thing compared to 0.9.1?
 992 2014-06-06 10:50:51 <sipa> what do you plan to use it for?
 993 2014-06-06 10:51:43 <Hasimir> well, I was going to see how it went with my little linux vm setup ...
 994 2014-06-06 10:52:09 <Hasimir> but with a question like that, my guess is the answer is don't use it near a live wallet ...
 995 2014-06-06 10:53:19 <sipa> testnet is fine :)
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 997 2014-06-06 10:54:11 <Hasimir> ah-ha, does it whinge if there's another active qt instance running at the same time?
 998 2014-06-06 10:54:36 <sipa> if you want to run two bitcoind/bitcoin-qt's, they need a separate p2p port, separate rpc port, separate datadir
 999 2014-06-06 10:55:21 <Hasimir> separate datadir ... yes, that's the catch I overlooked, the rest is all default config
1000 2014-06-06 10:55:35 <Hasimir> ok, I'll play with it later.
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1022 2014-06-06 11:31:15 <gdm85> devrandom: also another improvement I added is that I verify md5 hashes of the downloaded source inputs before calling any gbuild
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1024 2014-06-06 11:32:04 <gdm85> wumpus: also in your guide: in theory a MiTM'ed input file could do something nasty during the build process..like overriding PATH. thus I think it's a good improvement
1025 2014-06-06 11:32:19 <gdm85> (but again: probably in the domain of gitian-builder)
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1027 2014-06-06 11:33:23 <Hasimir> gdm85, why md5 and not one of the sha variants?
1028 2014-06-06 11:33:36 <Hasimir> surely that's not all there is ...
1029 2014-06-06 11:34:07 <gdm85> Hasimir: indeed. but this is just a first approach, improvements can be done. for example I'd go for 2 hashes (md5sum + sha256sum)  TBH
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1031 2014-06-06 11:34:31 <gdm85> but the problem is that whatever approach, is better to implement it in gitian-builder
1032 2014-06-06 11:34:43 <Hasimir> not paranoid enough, I'd go for sha256+ and gpg sig checking
1033 2014-06-06 11:34:51 <sipa> md5 is still preimage secure
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1035 2014-06-06 11:35:33 <gdm85> Hasimir: no. you are validating that no MiTM sources are being used for the gbuild. you are validating *who* has built the same only at the end, last stage (gsign)
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1044 2014-06-06 11:38:19 * Hasimir sighs ...
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1047 2014-06-06 11:41:37 <gdm85> aside from the deterministic VM security, it also prevents you from waiting the whole time of compiling before knowing you had wrong sources
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1049 2014-06-06 11:42:52 <azariah4> what's a good source/example of how to get ElGamal key components from a EC key?
1050 2014-06-06 11:44:24 <sipa> the EC public key is the public key, and the EC private key is the private key...
1051 2014-06-06 11:44:38 <sipa> (assuming you mean EC ElGamal, which i don't know how much is used)
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1054 2014-06-06 11:46:48 <azariah4> hmm, right. what I want to try is to get a pycrypto ElGamal key object from a bitcoin EC key: https://www.dlitz.net/software/pycrypto/api/current/Crypto.PublicKey.ElGamal-module.html
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1056 2014-06-06 11:47:30 <sipa> that doesn't look like it's EC ElGamal, so it's not over the same group
1057 2014-06-06 11:47:33 <sipa> that won't work
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1059 2014-06-06 11:48:04 <sipa> well, you can convert the key of course, but it won't have any advantage over any other piece of secret data
1060 2014-06-06 11:48:13 <sipa> in particular, you won't be able to use the bitcoin public key to verify
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1062 2014-06-06 11:50:02 <azariah4> the use case is asym enc of a message with a bitcoin pubkey; after googling ElGamal seems like a good choice
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1064 2014-06-06 11:50:51 <azariah4> for the particular case I can't use ECIES as there is only a single pubkey, not two keypairs
1065 2014-06-06 11:51:26 <sipa> that won't work
1066 2014-06-06 11:51:39 <sipa> and uh, ECIES only needs a single public key
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1070 2014-06-06 11:52:41 <sipa> the other key is ephemeral, generated at encryption time
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1072 2014-06-06 11:53:18 <azariah4> oh :O
1073 2014-06-06 11:53:42 <azariah4> I thought ECIES needed one privkey and one pubkey to generate the shared secret which then is used to derive the enc key?
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1079 2014-06-06 11:59:49 <azariah4> ah, hmm. so given bob's EC key (d,Q), one can generate a ephemeral key (d2, Q2) and get the secret d2*Q, derive a key from it, encrypt message m with it to get ciphertext c
1080 2014-06-06 12:00:11 <azariah4> then publich c and Q2, so bob can later decrypt using d*Q2 to derive the secret key?
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1142 2014-06-06 13:06:15 <wumpus> gdm85: the gitian descriptors verify all the inputs
1143 2014-06-06 13:06:45 <gdm85> wumpus: ah, didn't notice this
1144 2014-06-06 13:06:46 <wumpus> gdm85: it's not needed to check them at download (though that can be added if you download them using a script, of course)
1145 2014-06-06 13:07:02 <gdm85> yes I added it that way
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1169 2014-06-06 13:35:38 <dgenr8> wumpus: thank you for that gmane link
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1177 2014-06-06 13:52:08 <michagogo> 13:51:23 <sipa> if you want to run two bitcoind/bitcoin-qt's, they need a separate p2p port, separate rpc port, separate datadir <--Well, not strictly true
1178 2014-06-06 13:52:19 <michagogo> Separate datadir, yes.
1179 2014-06-06 13:52:40 <michagogo> But you don't need a separate p2p port if one of them isn't listening
1180 2014-06-06 13:53:08 <michagogo> And you don't need a separate rpc port if one of them is server=0
1181 2014-06-06 13:53:20 <michagogo> (Can bitcoind do server=0?)
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1183 2014-06-06 13:53:53 <michagogo> I know someone talked about making it able to do that at some point, don't remember if it actually happened
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1234 2014-06-06 14:50:02 <gavinandresen> jgarzik wumpus sipa: if pull-tester is happy I’m going to pull the smartfee changes. I’m tired of rebasing them, and they’ve been ready for weeks.
1235 2014-06-06 14:51:29 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, PR#?
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1237 2014-06-06 14:51:49 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: 3959
1238 2014-06-06 14:52:08 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: and 4250
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1245 2014-06-06 14:59:29 <wumpus> gavinandresen: ack on 3959 at least, I think all remarks (such as storing the mempool) have been solved
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1248 2014-06-06 15:00:23 <gavinandresen> great. I’m rebasing 4250 right now (and writing release notes to go along with it)
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1253 2014-06-06 15:05:41 <cfields> sipa: https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/tree/secp256k1-integration
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1257 2014-06-06 15:07:06 <cfields> sipa: I've still got some testing to do, making sure it plays nice with the cross-builds. But afaik if it doesn't, it'll be a bug in libsecp256k1 that we'll address there.
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1262 2014-06-06 15:12:57 <t7> will the deconstructor ever get called if its a static variable?
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1264 2014-06-06 15:14:06 <wumpus> michagogo: yes, that's possible
1265 2014-06-06 15:14:23 <wumpus> t7: when the program exits
1266 2014-06-06 15:15:00 <t7> oh wow
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1268 2014-06-06 15:15:54 <t7> deconstructor = destructor
1269 2014-06-06 15:16:20 <gavinandresen> hearn (et al): I’m in the middle of setting up a web page to track fees over time: http://bitcoincore.org/smartfee/
1270 2014-06-06 15:16:33 <hearn> cool
1271 2014-06-06 15:16:45 <gavinandresen> bitcoind (without a wallet) is running on bitcoincore, re-indexing the blockchain.....
1272 2014-06-06 15:16:45 <hearn> i tried the 0.9 fee level the other day, wrote a program to measure confirmation time
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1274 2014-06-06 15:17:24 <hearn> it took quite a long time. seems most miners didn't upgrade. though from polling one of them (slush) the reason seemed more to be "if it ain't broke don't fix it" rather than any well planned out fee maximisation strategy
1275 2014-06-06 15:17:28 <hearn> 0.9 was not a big release for miners
1276 2014-06-06 15:17:51 <gavinandresen> 0.9.2 has a DoS fix that they should get.
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1278 2014-06-06 15:19:10 <gavinandresen> hearn: any brilliant insights on how SPV clients can get smarter about fees?
1279 2014-06-06 15:19:35 <hearn> i was thinking a two step plan
1280 2014-06-06 15:19:40 <hearn> first step, just poll and average
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1283 2014-06-06 15:20:29 <gavinandresen> poll meaning new “tell me about fees” network messages (and maybe service bit)?
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1285 2014-06-06 15:20:47 <hearn> second step, spv wallets remember bloom filter false positives and track them over time, to measure how fast they confirm. this is hard though because it requires the remote node to be able to tell you what the input values were for a now spent transaction
1286 2014-06-06 15:20:52 <hearn> which is not currently recorded anywhere
1287 2014-06-06 15:20:53 <cfields> wumpus: do you have some conflicting arm/x86 databases you could share with me to save me the trouble (re #2293)? That's my kind of bug :)
1288 2014-06-06 15:21:11 <hearn> yes exactly a getfees message. no service bits please.
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1291 2014-06-06 15:22:02 <hearn> bitcoinj can't use them as it relies on DNS seeds and that is unlikely to change any time soon due to the general churn rate in the network making it hard to bootstrap quickly using just remembered sets of IPs.
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1294 2014-06-06 15:22:13 <hearn> we'd have to solve the decentralised bootstrap problem first
1295 2014-06-06 15:22:45 <hearn> anyway all nodes with a mempool and watching the block chain should be calculating floating fees
1296 2014-06-06 15:22:48 <hearn> it doesn't take much
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1301 2014-06-06 15:24:11 <petertodd> hearn: if you're going to rely on centralized DNS seeds anyway, why aren't you just running some fee calculating servers that implement an algorithm you control in a trusted way?
1302 2014-06-06 15:24:24 <hearn> the other complication with the second step is that currently input values would be unauthenticated. so it'd require etothepi's suggested change to include input value along with script in the signature calculation
1303 2014-06-06 15:25:28 <hearn> because decentralisation is a journey, petertodd. write more code and you'll understand that. i'm hoping someone smart will figure out a way we can have our cake and eat it, at which point, we can drop it in and benefit. until then making things as decentralised as possible but no more so is the way forward
1304 2014-06-06 15:25:51 <petertodd> hearn: that requires wallet software to upgrade; you'd easily take two years to implement that on a big # of the tx volume
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1306 2014-06-06 15:26:13 <hearn> what does? putting value in sighash?
1307 2014-06-06 15:26:40 <petertodd> yes, lots and lots of users aren't going to touch critical tx creation code if they don't have to
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1310 2014-06-06 15:27:23 <gavinandresen> ummm, lots and lots of transactions come from SPV wallets
1311 2014-06-06 15:27:34 <hearn> yes, though it's not a difficult change. the false positives collected to measure fee levels would have to be filtered to be v2 transactions, i.e. it might have to overcollect for a while
1312 2014-06-06 15:27:36 <gavinandresen> … which have a clear incentive to upgrade if it means better fee estimation
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1314 2014-06-06 15:27:53 <cfields> gavinandresen: while you're rebasing and switching around branches, could you please verify that #3070 is fixed as of this morning?
1315 2014-06-06 15:28:04 <cfields> gavinandresen: clicky: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3070
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1319 2014-06-06 15:28:53 <hearn> but "step 2" is a bigger project. to get authenticated value amounts is a forking change, for example. and we need to figure out a database structure that would allow the node to attach values to the input fields.
1320 2014-06-06 15:28:53 <gavinandresen> cfields: I’ll check…
1321 2014-06-06 15:29:13 <petertodd> gavinandresen: my point is there do exist other proposals that authenticate value amounts without sighash hacks
1322 2014-06-06 15:29:20 <hearn> or maybe v2 transactions actually duplicate the value amount in their data structure. i guess satoshi didn't do that for simplicity and to reduce byte size
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1324 2014-06-06 15:29:26 <cfields> thanks
1325 2014-06-06 15:29:30 <gavinandresen> petertodd: links?
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1327 2014-06-06 15:29:45 <hearn> however if there's a good enough reason we could always adjust the serialization format of v2 to include them
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1330 2014-06-06 15:30:19 <petertodd> gavinandresen: UTXO/TXO commitment proposals do that
1331 2014-06-06 15:30:49 <hearn> i don't see how it helps. are nodes expected to keep every UTXO tree for every block?
1332 2014-06-06 15:31:03 <wumpus> cfields: nah, no need, I'm already working on it
1333 2014-06-06 15:31:03 <gavinandresen> petertodd: links?
1334 2014-06-06 15:31:30 <gavinandresen> petertodd: last I asked, there was no consensus on WHICH UTXO/TXO commitment proposal was best
1335 2014-06-06 15:31:35 <hearn> the step2 idea is: SPV node connects, syncs to the chain, once it's caught up it asks for a filtered mempool. false positives are stored to disk
1336 2014-06-06 15:32:03 <hearn> next time it connects it catches up with the chain again, this time finding where they confirmed
1337 2014-06-06 15:32:10 <hearn> oh, actually, thinking about it, maybe there's no need for db adjustments
1338 2014-06-06 15:32:51 <hearn> the getutxo patch i have written for lighthouse is enough: you get the mempool FPs, request the relevant UTXOs and if we have hard forked to include the value in the sighash, that proves the fee on those txns
1339 2014-06-06 15:32:54 <hearn> then you wait until they confirm
1340 2014-06-06 15:33:53 <petertodd> gavinandresen: no there isn't, although per-block TXO indexes is relatively uncontroversial
1341 2014-06-06 15:33:59 <hearn> in step1.5 the fee values can be unauthenticated. it's still laying the groundwork for full trustlessness: the protocol would be the same, until the txv2 upgrade at which point the remote nodes UTXO answers can be authenticated
1342 2014-06-06 15:34:43 <hearn> gavinandresen: i talked with maaku at the conference a bit. the main question mark is cost:  he is claiming a 20% performance hit. i find it difficult to judge the value of these UTXO commitment proposals, so am not sure if that's worth it or not
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1344 2014-06-06 15:36:07 <petertodd> hearn: what's the alternative to UTXO/TXO commitments if you want authenticated SPV?
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1346 2014-06-06 15:36:28 <hearn> authenticated in what sense
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1348 2014-06-06 15:36:35 <hearn> you mean for mempool transactions?
1349 2014-06-06 15:36:40 <petertodd> no, for blockchain data
1350 2014-06-06 15:36:45 <cfields> gdm85: around?
1351 2014-06-06 15:36:52 <gdm85> cfields: yep
1352 2014-06-06 15:37:00 <petertodd> authenticating mempool transactions is obviously impossible at one level
1353 2014-06-06 15:37:03 <cfields> gdm85: quick chat in #bitcoin-build ?
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1355 2014-06-06 15:37:07 <gdm85> k
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1370 2014-06-06 15:38:45 <hearn> i guess i've forgotten how that is supposed to work. perhaps someone should fork bitcoinj and make it implement these protocols, then it'd be easier to judge the tradeoffs involved.
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1384 2014-06-06 15:41:08 <petertodd> Well, with a miner TXO index commitment miners would build a per-block binary radix tree of every txout indexed by H(scriptPubKey), then SPV clients would query servers by prefix and block and be given proofs from that tree that their queries had been answered honestly and nothing was being hidden from them. Solves the problem that bloom filters are unauthenticated.
1385 2014-06-06 15:41:56 <hearn> ah right, you mean to avoid lying-by-omission in filter queries
1386 2014-06-06 15:42:07 <petertodd> yup
1387 2014-06-06 15:42:50 <hearn> i like the idea in the abstract but as it's not a problem that's been observed, nor is it obvious what such an attack buys the remote nodes, i like it but not at any cost. the cost on the server side is critical. i guess maaku will show up with a deeper analysis at some point
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1390 2014-06-06 15:44:04 <hearn> gavinandresen: so what are your thoughts on the incremental spv smartfees path?
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1393 2014-06-06 15:44:52 <gavinandresen> hearn: seems reasonable.
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1396 2014-06-06 15:46:30 <petertodd> hearn: there's a very large class set of protocols for which that kind of attack is worth pulling off
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1399 2014-06-06 15:48:16 <gavinandresen> hearn:  maybe a step zero is to just update hard-coded fees in new releases, based on http://bitcoincore.org/smartfee/ ….
1400 2014-06-06 15:48:46 <hearn> gavinandresen: is it really so hard to add a getfees message? it should be about 100 lines of code i'd hope. plus a small BIP.
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1402 2014-06-06 15:49:20 <gavinandresen> no, not hard.  Speaking of small BIPs, I still have writing up the ‘reject’ message on my TODO
1403 2014-06-06 15:49:22 <hearn> but sure
1404 2014-06-06 15:49:42 <hearn> as long as fees are relatively stable, we can do hard-coded updates until querying is moved into the protocol
1405 2014-06-06 15:49:53 <petertodd> there's no reason to add more unauthenticated features to the protocol for clients that depend on central servers anyway...
1406 2014-06-06 15:50:34 <hearn> gavinandresen: and i still have to plumb it through to the API instead of just logging it :)
1407 2014-06-06 15:50:40 <hearn> so much to do, so much to do ....
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1412 2014-06-06 15:55:05 <hearn> the good news is there's been a step-change in the number of contributions i'm getting. averaging multiple pull requests per day, at the moment
1413 2014-06-06 15:55:50 <hearn> so hopefully someone else will implement getfees and stuff :)
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1415 2014-06-06 15:57:37 <sipa> gavinandresen, hearn: i dont think the spv querying problem for fees is worse than it querying for exchange rates
1416 2014-06-06 15:58:39 <gavinandresen> sipa: good point
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1418 2014-06-06 15:59:33 <hearn> worse in what sense?
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1421 2014-06-06 15:59:54 <gavinandresen> If you’re querying one or more exchange servers to show the user “you’re sending $11” … querying one or more ‘give me fee estimates’ servers makes sense
1422 2014-06-06 16:00:35 <hearn> and what's wrong with querying the 8000 servers that are already calculating it?
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1424 2014-06-06 16:00:51 <gmaxwell> Because they're all the same server, giving you a cooked result. :)
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1428 2014-06-06 16:01:20 <gmaxwell> would be pretty reasonable to ask exchange data sources to also provide fee suggestions, perhaps?
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1430 2014-06-06 16:01:45 <hearn> but i can't meaningfully verify the identities and ownerships and independence of more than say, two or three servers. and even that takes ongoing effort. i'd rather solve the "bad internet connection" problem by just using Tor, the work for which is mostly already done
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1432 2014-06-06 16:02:04 <hearn> for exchange rates, there isn't much choice because exchange rates are all calculated based on centralised services already
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1437 2014-06-06 16:07:47 <petertodd> in any case, worth reminding people that with replace-by-fee you can afford to bias your initial fee estimates on the low side and bump them as needed - much less need for hour to hour estimates anyway. additionally estimates by definition can't see into the future, unless gavin was onto something with that satoshi costume...
1438 2014-06-06 16:08:10 <hearn> http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=217984
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1440 2014-06-06 16:08:47 <petertodd> permacoin + tree chains is a very interesting, and scalable, model
1441 2014-06-06 16:10:02 <hearn> gmaxwell:
1442 2014-06-06 16:10:04 <hearn> oops
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1571 2014-06-06 17:37:03 <wumpus> I'm going to tag 0.9.2rc2 with #4282 (cwallet init fix) #4295 (upgrade OpenSSL to 1.0.1h) #4261 (Use pnode->nLastRecv as sync score directly) and translation update
1572 2014-06-06 17:37:21 <gmaxwell> wumpus: ack
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1576 2014-06-06 17:39:24 <gavinandresen> wumpus: ack
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1580 2014-06-06 17:42:11 <wumpus> ok
1581 2014-06-06 17:42:47 <wumpus>  * [new tag]         v0.9.2rc2 -> v0.9.2rc2
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1583 2014-06-06 17:43:51 <torokun> can someone give me a basic idea or link to info about how the network operates?  e.g. how a node connects to a first node, what verification there is, how data is exchanged...
1584 2014-06-06 17:44:01 <Luke-Jr> torokun: #bitcoin
1585 2014-06-06 17:44:13 <torokun> i mean in the code
1586 2014-06-06 17:44:21 <torokun> e.g., is a first node hard coded?
1587 2014-06-06 17:44:29 <torokun> how does the networking protocol work
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1592 2014-06-06 17:45:57 <justanotheruser> torokun: ,,(bc,wiki node discovery)
1593 2014-06-06 17:45:58 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Satoshi_Client_Node_Discovery | Mar 13, 2014 ... Overview. The Satoshi client discovers the IP address and port of nodes in several different ways. Nodes discover their own external address ...
1594 2014-06-06 17:46:49 <torokun> awesome.  thanks.
1595 2014-06-06 17:47:28 <torokun> btw, i looked at the web docs on gribble and haven't seen anything like what you just did.
1596 2014-06-06 17:47:54 <torokun> is there somewhere i missed where that's documented?
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1607 2014-06-06 17:58:53 <Hasimir> torokun, there's a lot buried in the supybot/gribble docs .. the code base is massive for an irc bot
1608 2014-06-06 17:59:53 <Luke-Jr> Hasimir: well, obviously bc,* isn't stock supybot :P
1609 2014-06-06 18:00:24 <Hasimir> true, but even so ...
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1611 2014-06-06 18:00:42 <Hasimir> you've seen the size of that codebase, surely
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1613 2014-06-06 18:01:17 <Hasimir> it's bigger than bitcoin
1614 2014-06-06 18:01:36 <justanotheruser> wow, I wasn't aware
1615 2014-06-06 18:01:43 <Hasimir> iirc it'd give bitcoinarmory a run for its money on comparative size
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1618 2014-06-06 18:03:04 <Hasimir> well, I'm probably exaggerating slightly with the BA thing
1619 2014-06-06 18:03:10 <Hasimir> BA is a monster
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1622 2014-06-06 18:04:31 <Hasimir> supy's core (before any byte compiling or modification) is a few meg, and the gribble extension is a couple more
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1625 2014-06-06 18:04:55 <Hasimir> compile what needs to be compiled and it gets a bit bigger
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1647 2014-06-06 18:25:35 <justanotheruser> Are there any python implementations of input selection?
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1652 2014-06-06 18:30:22 <kadoban> justanotheruser: There must be one in Electrum if nowhere else
1653 2014-06-06 18:31:55 <justanotheruser> kadoban: good suggestion
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1657 2014-06-06 18:35:58 <justanotheruser> kadoban: kindof off topic, but if they're GNU License and I use their code, my entire project has to be GNU and can't be MIT right?
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1659 2014-06-06 18:36:51 <kadoban> justanotheruser: Basically, yes. You could ask the author if you can use part under a different license if it's important I suppose.
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1662 2014-06-06 18:37:18 <justanotheruser> it really isn't, I just don't like restrictive licenses
1663 2014-06-06 18:37:37 <justanotheruser> and I consider restricting users from using my code to restrict users to be restrictive :P
1664 2014-06-06 18:37:44 <kadoban> XD
1665 2014-06-06 18:38:06 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: GNU licenses don't restrict users at all.
1666 2014-06-06 18:38:58 <Luke-Jr> also, GNU has multiple licenses.
1667 2014-06-06 18:39:00 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: oh? So I could take a GNU licensed project, modify it, compile and obfuscate it and release it?
1668 2014-06-06 18:39:08 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: referring to GPL I guess
1669 2014-06-06 18:39:14 <Luke-Jr> using LGPL libraries don't restrict your code in any way.
1670 2014-06-06 18:39:25 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: no, GNU licenses DO restrict distribution
1671 2014-06-06 18:39:31 <Luke-Jr> but they don't restrict USE
1672 2014-06-06 18:39:32 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: yes
1673 2014-06-06 18:39:34 <justanotheruser> I know
1674 2014-06-06 18:39:37 <justanotheruser> 14:33 < justanotheruser> and I consider restricting users from using my code to restrict users to be restrictive :P
1675 2014-06-06 18:39:47 <Luke-Jr> users are not restricted at all
1676 2014-06-06 18:39:53 <Luke-Jr> distributors are
1677 2014-06-06 18:40:05 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: I care about restricting anyone
1678 2014-06-06 18:40:29 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: the MIT license is also restrictive then
1679 2014-06-06 18:40:34 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: I suppose
1680 2014-06-06 18:40:46 <Luke-Jr> and we're way off-topic <.<
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1683 2014-06-06 18:41:08 <justanotheruser> I care about restricting users from doing what they want with my source. I want to restrict users from suing me :P
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1686 2014-06-06 18:41:26 <kadoban> justanotheruser: tyrant ;)
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1691 2014-06-06 18:44:30 <Hasimir> justanotheruser, sounds like you want the WTFNMF license
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1694 2014-06-06 18:45:40 <Luke-Jr> Hasimir: uh, no such thing? :P
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1696 2014-06-06 18:46:01 <justanotheruser> Hasimir: it seems like a profane version of the MIT license :P
1697 2014-06-06 18:46:06 <Hasimir> you want the original link or the github one?
1698 2014-06-06 18:46:17 <Luke-Jr> do you mean WTFPL?
1699 2014-06-06 18:46:22 <Luke-Jr> WTFPL is too restrictive for me.
1700 2014-06-06 18:46:31 <Hasimir> actually it's a derivative of the WTFPL, but with a very special extra clause
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1702 2014-06-06 18:46:46 <Hasimir> I'll get you the original link
1703 2014-06-06 18:46:46 <Luke-Jr> Hasimir: link?
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1705 2014-06-06 18:47:01 <Luke-Jr> WTFPL requires you to act on your desires. I don't like that.
1706 2014-06-06 18:47:06 <Luke-Jr> I would be tied up forever.
1707 2014-06-06 18:47:19 <Hasimir> http://www.adversary.org/wp/2013/10/14/do-what-the-fuck-you-want-but-its-not-my-fault/
1708 2014-06-06 18:47:26 <torokun> who runs it?  I mean, is there some altruistic fellow who got a server just to run gribble?
1709 2014-06-06 18:47:35 <Luke-Jr> nanotube
1710 2014-06-06 18:47:47 <Hasimir> and it's semi-altruistic
1711 2014-06-06 18:48:05 <Hasimir> he's an economics professor, so we make a brilliant microcosm to study
1712 2014-06-06 18:48:13 <Luke-Jr> Hasimir: that has the same requirement
1713 2014-06-06 18:48:13 <justanotheruser> There was some license that said you couldn't use their product for evil. It was open source but made for IBM employees IIRC. Stallman got upset about this, so the license was changed so only IBM employees could use their product for evil. :P
1714 2014-06-06 18:48:30 <torokun> heh
1715 2014-06-06 18:48:32 <Hasimir> heh
1716 2014-06-06 18:48:35 <kadoban> haha
1717 2014-06-06 18:48:51 <Hasimir> there's a child in melbourne who is the property of a friend of mine
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1719 2014-06-06 18:49:16 <Hasimir> to prove that noone reads licenses he inserted a clause about a client's first born some years ago ...
1720 2014-06-06 18:49:24 <Hasimir> he never claimed
1721 2014-06-06 18:49:35 <Luke-Jr> children aren't property, n00b
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1723 2014-06-06 18:50:32 <Hasimir> you do recall you're talking to someone whose country was founded on doing horrible shit to ppl, beginning with boats ...
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1726 2014-06-06 18:51:55 <Hasimir> but anyway, getting back to the license I wrote ... I like the WTFPL, but there wasn't enough of a CYA clause for devs/authors/etc. so I added one ...
1727 2014-06-06 18:52:02 <torokun> which major civilization didn't do that?
1728 2014-06-06 18:52:22 <Hasimir> yeah, I realised that just as I hit enter, but screw it
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1749 2014-06-06 19:05:39 <Luke-Jr> Hasimir: I don't like requirement 0
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1751 2014-06-06 19:05:57 <Hasimir> then it is clearly not for you
1752 2014-06-06 19:06:23 <Hasimir> true to the license you can decide not the F to use it ... ;)
1753 2014-06-06 19:06:48 <Hasimir> this is really just for WTFPL fans who don't want the blame when something goes wrong
1754 2014-06-06 19:07:18 <Hasimir> 'cause you know that sooner or later it will ... probably sooner
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1775 2014-06-06 19:25:40 <justanotheruser> How do I make a raw transaction with custom scripts? createrawtransaction seems to only support p2pkh createrawtransaction [{"txid":txid,"vout":n},...] {address:amount,...}
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1780 2014-06-06 19:29:31 <andytoshi> justanotheruser: you need to do it yourself, createrawtransaction will only make transactions that signrawtransaction can handle
1781 2014-06-06 19:30:09 <justanotheruser> andytoshi: I need to create the encoded string and add signatures myself?
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1783 2014-06-06 19:30:56 <andytoshi> yes. if you're doing something simple you can modify the bitcoind source, which is maybe easier
1784 2014-06-06 19:31:30 <justanotheruser> I am making a python script to interact with bitcoind
1785 2014-06-06 19:31:52 <justanotheruser> I am really surprised you can't turn a JSON string into an encoded tx
1786 2014-06-06 19:32:05 <justanotheruser> I mean with arbitrary script
1787 2014-06-06 19:32:30 <andytoshi> well, you wouldn't be able to sign an arbitrary script..
1788 2014-06-06 19:33:01 <justanotheruser> andytoshi: well signrawtransaction is only for P2PKH inputs anyways right?
1789 2014-06-06 19:33:24 <andytoshi> it might also be able to handle multisig
1790 2014-06-06 19:34:05 <justanotheruser> yeah, but I'm more worried about the outputs than inputs. :P
1791 2014-06-06 19:34:32 <justanotheruser> andytoshi: maybe bitcoind can do this. I want one output to be 1 of 2 and the other 2 outputs to be change.
1792 2014-06-06 19:34:40 <justanotheruser> Is that possible?
1793 2014-06-06 19:35:18 <andytoshi> the 1-of-2 output will appear as an address starting with 3 (indicated p2sh) so you should be able to do this with createrawtransaction
1794 2014-06-06 19:35:27 Zarutian has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1795 2014-06-06 19:36:45 <justanotheruser> andytoshi: oh, that's right.
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1797 2014-06-06 19:37:00 <justanotheruser> I still think bitcoind should handle arbitrary scripts
1798 2014-06-06 19:37:14 <justanotheruser> Maybe when I become more familiar with the codebase I will patch it
1799 2014-06-06 19:37:33 <andytoshi> i don't, that sounds dangerous and if you are familiar with the script you shouldn't have trouble encoding your own transactions
1800 2014-06-06 19:38:05 <cfields> wumpus: when you disabled that, you were able to read data from another machine?
1801 2014-06-06 19:38:13 <cfields> wumpus: or you had to disable on both, regen, then you could share?
1802 2014-06-06 19:38:34 <andytoshi> justanotheruser: but it might be worthwhile to float a patch out there, i'm sure people would use it even if it wasn't merged into the main codebase
1803 2014-06-06 19:38:56 <justanotheruser> andytoshi: I'm confused. Why would it be a bad thing to let people pay to whatever script they want. It would allow for smarter contracts
1804 2014-06-06 19:39:14 <justanotheruser> like 2 of 3 of buyer, seller and 3 of 5 voting pool
1805 2014-06-06 19:39:27 <andytoshi> multisig is already supported
1806 2014-06-06 19:39:44 <justanotheruser> andytoshi: but you can't do that with multisig, can you?
1807 2014-06-06 19:39:46 <andytoshi> most scripts are impossible to sign
1808 2014-06-06 19:39:57 <shesek> not all scripts even require signing
1809 2014-06-06 19:40:16 <justanotheruser> andytoshi: if they're impossible to sign, that should have been determined on the testnet
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1811 2014-06-06 19:40:34 <andytoshi> huh? you can determine it by looking at them.
1812 2014-06-06 19:40:48 <justanotheruser> andytoshi: I'm confused what your concern is
1813 2014-06-06 19:41:08 <andytoshi> my concern is, there is no way we can spend general outputs, so making it easy to create general outputs means that people will lose money
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1815 2014-06-06 19:42:30 <justanotheruser> andytoshi: huh? You just make an input that can redeem the output? They should test it on the testnet like I said to make sure they won't lose money.
1816 2014-06-06 19:43:20 <justanotheruser> I don't think making it harder to do something is the best way to stop people from losing money
1817 2014-06-06 19:44:16 <andytoshi> what if i make an output which is p2pkhash with an extra OP_NOP. how do i spend that?
1818 2014-06-06 19:45:01 <justanotheruser> andytoshi: an extra OP_NOP in the output?
1819 2014-06-06 19:45:17 <andytoshi> yeah. so signrawtransaction won't recognize it but i still need to get an ECDSA sig somehow
1820 2014-06-06 19:45:37 <justanotheruser> andytoshi: you redeem it using the same script you used to make the tx
1821 2014-06-06 19:46:09 <justanotheruser> I don't expect bitcoind to support signing all these weird tx, only allow people to define their scripts and scriptsigs
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1823 2014-06-06 19:47:22 <andytoshi> i don't get how you'd define a scriptsig for that
1824 2014-06-06 19:48:44 <justanotheruser> andytoshi: OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <h> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG?
1825 2014-06-06 19:48:48 <justanotheruser> oops
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1827 2014-06-06 19:48:59 <justanotheruser> the output
1828 2014-06-06 19:49:52 <andytoshi> my point is if you allow arbitrary outputs it's really easy to make trivial-seeming changes but if you make -any- change at all then you're in a position where you can't create an input
1829 2014-06-06 19:50:21 <andytoshi> you say, just try on testnet. well, literally every signature type you can create on testnet has an output which can be created with the existing rpc
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1831 2014-06-06 19:50:59 <justanotheruser> andytoshi: I don't see why you couldn't find an input?
1832 2014-06-06 19:51:23 <justanotheruser> Ignoring signatures, what if I want my script to 2 2 OP_ADD OP_EQUALVERIFY?
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1835 2014-06-06 19:52:37 <andytoshi> then a signature is OP_4. (if i ignore the signature then i can't say anything at all.)
1836 2014-06-06 19:53:24 <justanotheruser> andytoshi: indeed, and the signature can be created from the program that made the script
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1838 2014-06-06 19:53:51 <justanotheruser> I am not understanding why bitcoind being able to generate the signature is a necessity
1839 2014-06-06 19:53:53 <andytoshi> ok, then that program can make the transaction. there is no need for bitcoind to be involved
1840 2014-06-06 19:53:59 <andytoshi> because you want bitcoind to be able to create the output
1841 2014-06-06 19:54:07 <justanotheruser> andytoshi: it is useful to have an API for encoding a tx
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1843 2014-06-06 19:54:27 <andytoshi> why? it's dead simple, you could probably guess the encoding if you knew all the fields
1844 2014-06-06 19:54:37 <petertodd> justanotheruser: did you see my examples/ directory in python-bitcoinlib? it's pretty easy to use it to do non-standard txs, including signatures
1845 2014-06-06 19:54:51 <justanotheruser> petertodd: I will check that out
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1847 2014-06-06 19:55:55 <petertodd> justanotheruser: there's code in there that does a step-by-step signing of a p2sh multisig for instance, and a standard p2pkh txout - easy to take that and modify it to sign anything you want
1848 2014-06-06 19:56:23 <justanotheruser> petertodd: very useful. i was looking for something that would do that in Vitalik's python tool
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1851 2014-06-06 19:56:59 <petertodd> justanotheruser: thanks! yeah, vitaliks library and my one have very different goals - I essentially wanted a python interface to make it easy to do crazy low level hacks :)
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1853 2014-06-06 19:57:32 * justanotheruser imports bitcoinlib
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1940 2014-06-06 20:44:57 <roybadami> Is there an explantion anywhere of why fee sniping is an issue?
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1942 2014-06-06 20:45:36 <roybadami> I'm obviously missing something because it seems to me that the sniper is doing two blocks of work for less than two blocks of reward (plus a significant change that the work will be wasted)
1943 2014-06-06 20:45:55 <roybadami> s/change/chance/
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1949 2014-06-06 20:51:22 <maaku> i'm not sure how the pull request does anything to affect fee sniping
1950 2014-06-06 20:51:55 <maaku> if you are going to try to reorg the last block, you'll have to do two blocks anyway
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1955 2014-06-06 20:53:48 <roybadami> Well, AIUI the sniper is mining two blocks starting one block back..... so they get the longest chain
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1957 2014-06-06 20:54:22 <roybadami> So, the sniper gets to use the transactions in the mempool plus the ones from the orphaned block....
1958 2014-06-06 20:54:48 <maaku> the PR makes new transactions have the next block's height as their nLockTime
1959 2014-06-06 20:55:04 <maaku> which means they'd make it into the 2nd block
1960 2014-06-06 20:55:11 <maaku> so yeah, not really seeing the connection
1961 2014-06-06 20:55:22 <roybadami> What the idea is, _I think_ is ultimately that nLockTime is set to the expected block height of the next block, so that the sniper can't stick transactions currently in the mempool into an earlier block than they would otherwise be in
1962 2014-06-06 20:55:49 <roybadami> So without nLockTime, the sniper can backfill transactions into an earlier block.
1963 2014-06-06 20:56:02 <sipa> the pr sets it to 10 blocks ago
1964 2014-06-06 20:56:09 <sipa> which is far less powerful
1965 2014-06-06 20:56:24 <sipa> but does prevent against incentives to rewrote the whole chain thing
1966 2014-06-06 20:57:10 <roybadami> It's the incentives to ever conduct this attack in the firt place that I'm having trouble understanding
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1968 2014-06-06 20:58:29 <roybadami> You have to mine two blocks and you're going to collect fees from two blocks.  Sure, you might be able to ensure that those blocks are very marginally fuller than average, but surely assuming you have <50% then the very real possibility you'll waste your effort more than counterbalances that
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1974 2014-06-06 20:59:42 <roybadami> As for a 10-block reoorg - if anyone has the mining power to conduct those at will then bitcoin is dead and buried (but that's not the point of the pul request, is it?)
1975 2014-06-06 21:00:12 <gmaxwell> at 10 blocks ago the advantage is mostly just keeping the function working well, setting it some blocks in the future is helpful for sniping,
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1977 2014-06-06 21:00:59 <maaku> roybadami: ghash.io had 6 in a row a few days ago...
1978 2014-06-06 21:01:03 <roybadami> But my question is back a step - why would anyone snipe?  Surely you'll probalby lose?  I'm missing the incentive for anyone to do it?
1979 2014-06-06 21:01:13 <gmaxwell> roybadami: a 10 block reorg isn't that big a deal considering the degree of pool consolidation today, ghash.io would have a 17% success rate at a 10 block reorg.
1980 2014-06-06 21:01:33 <roybadami> really?  that's counterintuitive.... I'll have to think about that
1981 2014-06-06 21:01:49 <maaku> roybadami: it's a rather network-harmless 51% attack
1982 2014-06-06 21:02:25 <gmaxwell> thats the other point, a short reorg that just fee sniped would be 'harmless', e.g. wouldn't be so sure to undermine the value of the recieved coins.
1983 2014-06-06 21:02:29 <petertodd> sipa: FWIW the 10 block back thing is only because we don't re-relay transactions, so in theory a tx right at the margin might get bad propagation. also, shakes out remaining bugs
1984 2014-06-06 21:03:24 <maaku> you're not doing anything really bad like censoring transactions ... just making sure all the fees go to you
1985 2014-06-06 21:03:34 Vitalik_ has joined
1986 2014-06-06 21:03:37 <roybadami> gmaxwell: I'd like to understand your' 17% success of 10 block reorg figure.  That would imply that six confirmations is no longer safe?
1987 2014-06-06 21:03:48 <maaku> roybadami: six confirmations is already not safe
1988 2014-06-06 21:04:02 <maaku> and hasn't been for some time (six months?)
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1991 2014-06-06 21:04:46 <gmaxwell> much longer than that,
1992 2014-06-06 21:05:03 <roybadami> Why does the wallet still claim it is then?
1993 2014-06-06 21:05:03 <gmaxwell> roybadami: go see bitcoin.pdf the formula is at the bottom.
1994 2014-06-06 21:05:18 <maaku> roybadami: ignorance? laziness?
1995 2014-06-06 21:05:34 bbrian has joined
1996 2014-06-06 21:05:34 <gmaxwell> roybadami: it doesn't claim anything is "safe" it shows the number of confirmations.
1997 2014-06-06 21:06:16 <gmaxwell> And "safe" depends on your threat model, 6 is probably perfetly safe so long as you trust no one will hack ghash.io again or that ghash.io won't attack you like they did w/ betcoin dice. :)
1998 2014-06-06 21:06:27 Soligor has quit (Quit: Soligor)
1999 2014-06-06 21:06:32 <roybadami> Yes, but it promulgates the accepted wisdom that six confirmations is the gold standard
2000 2014-06-06 21:06:51 <gmaxwell> roybadami: I don't know how it does.
2001 2014-06-06 21:07:07 <petertodd> roybadami: 304549 confirmations is the gold standard, and the standard keeps rising
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2003 2014-06-06 21:08:22 <gmaxwell> In any case, to get numbers which are strongly safe, with liberal threat assumptions— like that every txn in each block is a low overhead doublespend and the attacker controls the largest pool and can control it for days— you need really high numbers like 20-30 range.
2004 2014-06-06 21:08:26 <roybadami> YOu have to admit that the six confirmations is what you have to wait for to be safe is pretty deeply ingrained int eh bitcoin community.  (If yo're not overly cautions most people still rely on 0 or 1)
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2006 2014-06-06 21:08:58 <gmaxwell> roybadami: most people in my expirence act on 0 or 1, which is kinda nuts considering that small forks happen naturally.
2007 2014-06-06 21:09:08 leofidus is now known as afk!~quassel@lionservers.de|leofidus-ger
2008 2014-06-06 21:09:34 <roybadami> Small forks are safe in the adsense of double spends - the tx will make it int ot eh blockchain eventually
2009 2014-06-06 21:10:13 Soligor has joined
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2011 2014-06-06 21:11:54 <gmaxwell> roybadami: not waiting for a transaction at all is safe absent misconduct. :P
2012 2014-06-06 21:12:19 <roybadami> True :)
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2015 2014-06-06 21:16:19 <roybadami> But anyway going back to what I said before.  6 transactions is deeply engrained in the community, and Bitcoin Core reinforces that by displaying a transaction as 'confirmed' after 6 blocks....  I'd never looked at the actual probabilities before (and OK it's not so counteruntuitive now I think about it) but I'd just trusted that the value in the reference client was conservative
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2020 2014-06-06 21:18:10 <roybadami> If 20-30 is what's needed given the level of centralisation, Is there a good reason why the reference client shouldn't wait that long before showing a transaction as confirmed?
2021 2014-06-06 21:18:19 <petertodd> roybadami: you know, the little clock face thing should really count down in a geometric series, getting closer and closer to midnight but never actually reaching it
2022 2014-06-06 21:19:27 <roybadami> Well, yes... that would be great, except eventually you need to change to a tick.  From a usability pov you need to tell people what's safe, not expect people to do the maths themselves
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2025 2014-06-06 21:21:33 <petertodd> ...which is probably better handled with insurance, and experts who study the problem
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2029 2014-06-06 21:22:16 <roybadami> Sadly the core dev team doesn't offer insurance though :-(
2030 2014-06-06 21:22:53 <roybadami> But yeah, you're right
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2032 2014-06-06 21:23:27 <roybadami> In the long term there will be intermediaries that will take care of this stuff, in the same way that they will take care of disputes with merchantes.
2033 2014-06-06 21:24:02 <petertodd> yup
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2035 2014-06-06 21:26:04 <justanotheruser> petertodd: Do you know of a python library that does input selection?
2036 2014-06-06 21:26:15 <roybadami> But anyway (although thanks for the education, as always :)
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2039 2014-06-06 21:27:12 <roybadami> My actual question was: why is it beneficial for someone to attempt to force a one block reoorg?  I don't get how it's worhtwhile (at least in terms of fees rather than as a double spend attempt)
2040 2014-06-06 21:27:52 mr_burdell has joined
2041 2014-06-06 21:27:57 <maaku> justanotheruser: it's a knapsack problem. i'd be surprised if there isn't a ton of python libraries to solve that genericly and efficiently
2042 2014-06-06 21:28:40 <justanotheruser> maaku: I am not too concerned with effeciency. I don't want to implement an inverted knapsack solver in python though.
2043 2014-06-06 21:29:09 <petertodd> justanotheruser: nope - I've always written my stuff to just pick at random, or from a sorted by size list, but I've never had any reason to try to be efficient about it
2044 2014-06-06 21:29:17 <justanotheruser> I'm probably either allow coincontrol (which is actually not very useful in my case, but easier for me) or reimplement the bitcoin method
2045 2014-06-06 21:30:27 <petertodd> justanotheruser: what are you making?
2046 2014-06-06 21:30:32 kermit has joined
2047 2014-06-06 21:30:59 <justanotheruser> petertodd: script to organize bets interfacing with realitykeys
2048 2014-06-06 21:31:08 <maaku> justanotheruser: the point was you shouldn't have to. Python is heavily used in the scientific world for solving NP hard problems. put "python knapsack solver" in google and you'll find something i'm sure
2049 2014-06-06 21:31:18 <petertodd> justanotheruser: nifty!
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2051 2014-06-06 21:31:44 <justanotheruser> lol thanks.
2052 2014-06-06 21:31:57 <justanotheruser> maaku: it is an "inverted" knapsack problem right?
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2054 2014-06-06 21:33:23 <maaku> justanotheruser: i don't think so?
2055 2014-06-06 21:33:38 <justanotheruser> oh
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2058 2014-06-06 21:33:54 <maaku> but maybe someone else can correct me
2059 2014-06-06 21:34:05 <justanotheruser> I may just steal electrums code
2060 2014-06-06 21:34:15 <justanotheruser> someone suggested that earlier
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2062 2014-06-06 21:35:02 <maaku> i think it's a 0-1 knapsack problem, although to work with an existing solver you might want to think about what counts as "value"
2063 2014-06-06 21:35:06 <petertodd> justanotheruser: fwiw python-bitcoinlib could certainly use a generic coin selection thing in the bitcoin.wallet module
2064 2014-06-06 21:36:04 <justanotheruser> petertodd: If I convert bitcoinds c++ to python I'll add it.
2065 2014-06-06 21:36:09 <maaku> unless by inverted they mean just that in bitcoin you are looking for the smallest "value" that overfits the sack. but iirc you should be able to reformulate the problem to work with a generic solution
2066 2014-06-06 21:36:23 ivan__ has joined
2067 2014-06-06 21:36:58 <petertodd> justanotheruser: thanks! that's the kind of thing where a generic class is nice, along with "pick stuff at random" versions and so on for comparison. of course, python-bitcoinlib is basically entirely lacking in wallet functionality right now
2068 2014-06-06 21:37:02 <justanotheruser> maaku: yes, that is what I was concerned with. What is value? Is value f(amount, daysDestroyed, tx size, etc)?
2069 2014-06-06 21:37:40 <justanotheruser> I think I'm going to try to copy bitcoinds code.
2070 2014-06-06 21:37:52 <justanotheruser> Because I have no ways to evaluate value
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2072 2014-06-06 21:38:08 <maaku> justanotheruser: you get to choose that
2073 2014-06-06 21:38:35 <maaku> but inverted size is a good start
2074 2014-06-06 21:38:50 <maaku> or look at how bitcoind does "priority"
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2076 2014-06-06 21:39:15 <justanotheruser> Thanks for your help guys :)_
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2106 2014-06-06 22:01:34 <trend> hey folks how  I can run two instanced of daemon on diff ip and same p2p ports?
2107 2014-06-06 22:02:11 <trend> so far when both rpc and p2p of instance nr2 is different it kinda works but when p2p port is same it fails to initialise
2108 2014-06-06 22:02:16 <sipa> -port -rpcport -datadir
2109 2014-06-06 22:02:24 <sipa> you have to set all 3 to alternate versiond
2110 2014-06-06 22:02:44 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2111 2014-06-06 22:03:04 <trend> sipa: what if I want to use same p2p port?
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2113 2014-06-06 22:03:26 <sipa> you can't
2114 2014-06-06 22:03:30 <trend> after all they run on diff ips so ports are co existing
2115 2014-06-06 22:03:34 <sipa> unless one of them doesn't lidten of course
2116 2014-06-06 22:03:40 <sipa> ah
2117 2014-06-06 22:03:53 <sipa> you can use -bind to fix them on a particular ip
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2119 2014-06-06 22:04:52 <trend> yes thats was my idea and it says unable to bind probably already running on this computer
2120 2014-06-06 22:05:19 <trend> failure to listen on any port
2121 2014-06-06 22:06:15 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2122 2014-06-06 22:06:52 <trend> also when I use -port (diff port) its saying that it wants to rebuild blocks db but its new datadir - is it normal?
2123 2014-06-06 22:07:45 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2124 2014-06-06 22:08:31 <sipa> did you pass an alternate -datadir?
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2129 2014-06-06 22:11:43 <maaku> does anyone know a low difficulty merged mined coin or testnet? i'm trying to debug some merged mining code and need to find a block..
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2131 2014-06-06 22:12:02 justanotheruser is now known as nikkuts
2132 2014-06-06 22:12:05 <gmaxwell> namecoin has a testnet.
2133 2014-06-06 22:12:20 <Luke-Jr> there's HunterCoin too - I imagine its testnet is low
2134 2014-06-06 22:12:32 <Luke-Jr> …unless it's died off since its lead developer was killed :|
2135 2014-06-06 22:12:39 <Luke-Jr> s/was killed/died/
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2137 2014-06-06 22:12:53  has quit (Clown|!~clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2138 2014-06-06 22:13:27 <gmaxwell> yea, thanks for the correction, you were going to alarm people there! :)
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2141 2014-06-06 22:14:05 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, I had forgotten the cause of death and was thinking more like an auto accident ;p
2142 2014-06-06 22:14:08 <trend> sipa: yes
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2146 2014-06-06 22:14:28 <trend> Luke-Jr: are u sure?
2147 2014-06-06 22:14:31 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: IIRC there *was* a scamcoin developer who got hospitalised though
2148 2014-06-06 22:14:45 <trend> such FUD :P
2149 2014-06-06 22:15:28 rnvk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2150 2014-06-06 22:15:31 <Luke-Jr> the co-developer decided to quit and give the premine to a successor :P
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2154 2014-06-06 22:18:39 <nikkuts> trend: ignore Luke-Jr. Every altcoin ever is great regardless of how unnecessary they are. It's all about the community! Sometimes premines are good! homebrew cryptosystems are the future! STOP FUDING
2155 2014-06-06 22:19:02 <sipa> nikkuts: off topic
2156 2014-06-06 22:19:16 <nikkuts> sipa: sorry
2157 2014-06-06 22:19:21 <trend> nikkuts: I think maybe he talks about his tonal stuff :P
2158 2014-06-06 22:20:12 <gmaxwell> trend: nikkuts: I don't know who either of you are, but if you troll in here you will be removed. The thing luke was talking about isn't even a currency, it's a cryptocoin-game, he made no opinion comment on the premine.
2159 2014-06-06 22:20:37 <nikkuts> gmaxwell: I am being sarcastic regarding trends comment
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2161 2014-06-06 22:20:53 * Luke-Jr stabs text for not conveying sarcasm
2162 2014-06-06 22:21:00 <nikkuts> I thought it was obviouis
2163 2014-06-06 22:21:10 <Luke-Jr> nikkuts: sadly, there are people who REALLY would say that and mean it
2164 2014-06-06 22:21:35 <trend> I was thinking Luke-Jr is serious
2165 2014-06-06 22:21:36 <trend> lol
2166 2014-06-06 22:21:42 <nikkuts> Luke-Jr: I know, I was quoting the worst BS I typically hear from altcoiners
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2168 2014-06-06 22:22:14 <sipa> i honestly didn't notice that it was sarcasm... it's still offtopic though :)
2169 2014-06-06 22:22:40 <nikkuts> sipa: indeed
2170 2014-06-06 22:22:49 <trend> sipa ty :)
2171 2014-06-06 22:23:41 <trend> sipa: so hmm I recheck my setup here and conf file - in debug same message, unable to  bind to bla bla IP
2172 2014-06-06 22:24:15 <sipa> trend: well you need to specify it on both
2173 2014-06-06 22:24:26 <sipa> otherwise the other will bind to the any ip
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2175 2014-06-06 22:24:50 <trend> sipa lol I should write it down, cause of mistake often is the most basic :)
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2178 2014-06-06 22:25:38 <Luke-Jr> FWIW, BatCoin's creator hospitalised story & pics: http://bitcointroll.org/?topic=400753.msg6298413#msg6298413
2179 2014-06-06 22:25:57 <maaku> gmaxwell Luke-Jr thanks!
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2182 2014-06-06 22:26:42 <nikkuts> Luke-Jr: did you make bitcointroll?
2183 2014-06-06 22:27:01 <Luke-Jr> nikkuts: no, off-topic; further discussion on BatCoin etc can be in ##altcoin-dev I guess
2184 2014-06-06 22:27:18 <nikkuts> Luke-Jr: Not really interested in batcoin
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2186 2014-06-06 22:27:30 <Luke-Jr> *etc*
2187 2014-06-06 22:27:31 <sipa> nananana
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2192 2014-06-06 22:29:40 <trend> sipa:  I tried to bind instance 2 to another ips as instance 1 can only use 1 from the 3, so far yet to work
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2202 2014-06-06 22:35:08 <maaku> wrong bat channel
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2263 2014-06-06 23:51:40 psgs is now known as away!~psgs@2001:41d0:1:68a3::39|psgs
2264 2014-06-06 23:51:54 justanotheruser has quit (Quit: Reconnecting)
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2269 2014-06-06 23:55:08 ParanoiaComplex2 has quit (Quit: Bye!)
2270 2014-06-06 23:57:19 weilu has joined