1 2014-06-09 00:00:08 <sipa> i think we almost never do utxo queries for non-existing entries
   2 2014-06-09 00:00:17 <phantomcircuit> 2014-06-08 23:46:04 UpdateTip: new best=000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f  height=0  log2_work=32.000022  tx=1  date=2009-01-03 18:15:05 progress=0.000000
   3 2014-06-09 00:00:18 <phantomcircuit> 2014-06-08 23:53:33 UpdateTip: new best=000000000000034a7dedef4a161fa058a2d67a173a90155f3a2fe6fc132e0ebf  height=200000  log2_work=68.741562  tx=7316696  date=2012-09-22 10:45:59 progress=0.095684
   4 2014-06-09 00:00:22 <phantomcircuit> w/o patch
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   6 2014-06-09 00:01:31 <Hasimir> why on earth was bdb chosen for the blockchain in the first place?
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   8 2014-06-09 00:01:41 <sipa> Hasimir: ask satoshi
   9 2014-06-09 00:01:52 <phantomcircuit> sipa, oh yeah right the vast majority of lookups for for valid transactions
  10 2014-06-09 00:01:53 <phantomcircuit> derp
  11 2014-06-09 00:01:55 <Hasimir> oh ...
  12 2014-06-09 00:01:57 <sipa> Hasimir: note that we don't use bdb for the blockchain data
  13 2014-06-09 00:02:01 llllllllll has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  14 2014-06-09 00:02:08 <sipa> Hasimir: but satoshi's code did until 0.7.x
  15 2014-06-09 00:02:16 <Hasimir> ok
  16 2014-06-09 00:02:24 <sipa> also, the blockchain itself is just raw data; it's the index that is stored in databases
  17 2014-06-09 00:02:34 <Hasimir> ah
  18 2014-06-09 00:02:37 brianhoffman_ has joined
  19 2014-06-09 00:02:53 <sipa> (and since 0.8, those are leveldb)
  20 2014-06-09 00:02:59 fuc has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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  23 2014-06-09 00:03:27 <phantomcircuit> sipa, is there a format version marker in leveldb?
  24 2014-06-09 00:03:34 <phantomcircuit> iirc it's CURRENT but im not sure
  25 2014-06-09 00:03:47 <phantomcircuit> wait no it's not that
  26 2014-06-09 00:03:50 <sipa> i don't think so
  27 2014-06-09 00:04:03 <phantomcircuit> fun
  28 2014-06-09 00:04:03 <sipa> but we can always introduce extra keys to indicate a particular version
  29 2014-06-09 00:04:27 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i was thinking about adding things like sequence numbers and proper checksums
  30 2014-06-09 00:04:37 <phantomcircuit> but that changes the journal format and probably the sorted tables format
  31 2014-06-09 00:04:48 <sipa> i don't want to change leveldb
  32 2014-06-09 00:04:53 <phantomcircuit> so there would need to be an indicator of whther to use them or not
  33 2014-06-09 00:05:02 <phantomcircuit> sipa, no?
  34 2014-06-09 00:05:05 <sipa> no
  35 2014-06-09 00:05:08 <btc123> ls
  36 2014-06-09 00:05:16 <sipa> i thought you were talking about what we're storing inside leveldb
  37 2014-06-09 00:05:17 <phantomcircuit> hehe @ btc123
  38 2014-06-09 00:05:23 <phantomcircuit> sipa, oh no
  39 2014-06-09 00:05:29 <sipa> i'm sure leveldb itself has version markers
  40 2014-06-09 00:05:38 <phantomcircuit> im talking about fixing the durability and consistency issues with leveldb
  41 2014-06-09 00:05:55 <phantomcircuit> they've been largely solved by fixes to handling under os x
  42 2014-06-09 00:05:59 <sipa> we don't need durability
  43 2014-06-09 00:06:18 <sipa> we do need consistency and integrity though
  44 2014-06-09 00:06:21 <phantomcircuit> sipa, no but we at least need to be able to detect when entries have gone missing
  45 2014-06-09 00:06:22 <phantomcircuit> :P
  46 2014-06-09 00:06:30 <sipa> no
  47 2014-06-09 00:06:44 <sipa> when the last changes are undone, you're just returning to a previous validation state
  48 2014-06-09 00:06:52 <sipa> and will redo whatever validation was done since then
  49 2014-06-09 00:07:03 <phantomcircuit> right im talking about entries already in a sorted table being screwed up
  50 2014-06-09 00:07:07 <gmaxwell> wumpus: thanks for tracking down the leveldb binary incompatiblity w/ arm.
  51 2014-06-09 00:07:10 <phantomcircuit> not the journal
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  53 2014-06-09 00:08:09 <phantomcircuit> 23:53:33-23:46:04 = (53-46)*60 + (33-4) = 449 seconds
  54 2014-06-09 00:08:27 <phantomcircuit> 2014-06-09 00:04:54 UpdateTip: new best=000000000000034a7dedef4a161fa058a2d67a173a90155f3a2fe6fc132e0ebf  height=200000  log2_work=68.741562  tx=7316696  date=2012-09-22 10:45:59 progress=0.095681
  55 2014-06-09 00:08:35 <phantomcircuit> 2014-06-09 00:04:54 UpdateTip: new best=000000000000034a7dedef4a161fa058a2d67a173a90155f3a2fe6fc132e0ebf  height=200000  log2_work=68.741562  tx=7316696  date=2012-09-22 10:45:59 progress=0.095681
  56 2014-06-09 00:08:47 <phantomcircuit> er
  57 2014-06-09 00:08:51 <phantomcircuit> 2014-06-08 23:58:45 UpdateTip: new best=000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f  height=0  log2_work=32.000022  tx=1  date=2009-01-03 18:15:05 progress=0.000000
  58 2014-06-09 00:09:36 <phantomcircuit> 351 seconds
  59 2014-06-09 00:10:00 <phantomcircuit> sipa, 21% reduction in reindex runtime to block 200k
  60 2014-06-09 00:10:02 <phantomcircuit> neat
  61 2014-06-09 00:10:12 <sipa> that's way more than i would have expected
  62 2014-06-09 00:10:29 <goosoodude> Ok, so. 1 thing to remember about the entire project I'm about to work on: I'm 14, and need to study this a lot. It's 98% thinking and brainstorming, and 2% coding. I will get it done, though!
  63 2014-06-09 00:10:34 <phantomcircuit> sipa, sha256 is ~20% of the cpu time
  64 2014-06-09 00:10:43 <phantomcircuit> it's a single threaded process
  65 2014-06-09 00:10:48 <sipa> i know
  66 2014-06-09 00:11:01 <phantomcircuit> so i'd have expected less also
  67 2014-06-09 00:11:08 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: how much of the remaining sha256 is merkle tree computation?
  68 2014-06-09 00:11:11 <phantomcircuit> since it didn't eliminate every call to sha256
  69 2014-06-09 00:11:18 <sipa> gmaxwell: half
  70 2014-06-09 00:11:33 <sipa> gmaxwell: as every txhash is computed once, and the merkle tree is computed once :)
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  72 2014-06-09 00:11:45 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=W0vqmQ8V
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  74 2014-06-09 00:11:51 <phantomcircuit> that's with the patch
  75 2014-06-09 00:11:57 <Luke-Jr> goosoodude: btw, please be sure to disclose that in any code you submit. we'll probably need your parents to sign a waiver for legal reasons :/
  76 2014-06-09 00:12:05 <phantomcircuit> it's now almost entirely recalculating block headers
  77 2014-06-09 00:12:17 <sipa> which are computed 10 times apparently
  78 2014-06-09 00:12:18 <gmaxwell> (the reason I ask is because the trees could get a 4-way SIMD implementation which might be a ~2x speedup or so)
  79 2014-06-09 00:12:19 <phantomcircuit> and checking hashes when reading from disk
  80 2014-06-09 00:12:33 <gmaxwell> not worth doing before getting the redundancy out there.
  81 2014-06-09 00:12:35 <gmaxwell> er though.
  82 2014-06-09 00:12:50 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i dont think there is any redundancy in the merkle tree calculations now
  83 2014-06-09 00:13:09 <phantomcircuit> so that would be a nice improvement
  84 2014-06-09 00:13:17 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i count 369 seconds btw
  85 2014-06-09 00:13:29 <phantomcircuit> sipa, is my timestamp math wrong?
  86 2014-06-09 00:13:33 <phantomcircuit> that's entirely possible lol
  87 2014-06-09 00:13:57 <sipa> yes
  88 2014-06-09 00:14:01 <sipa> vs 449s
  89 2014-06-09 00:14:31 <phantomcircuit> 00:04:54-23:58:45 = (64-58) * 60 + (54-45) = 369
  90 2014-06-09 00:14:34 <phantomcircuit> ah yeah you're right
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  92 2014-06-09 00:14:48 <sipa> still neat!
  93 2014-06-09 00:15:05 <phantomcircuit> ~17% reduction
  94 2014-06-09 00:17:23 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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  96 2014-06-09 00:18:24 <sipa> there are on average 133 transactions in a block
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 100 2014-06-09 00:19:32 <sipa> if we can save 8 out of 10 block hash computations, that means saving 8 hashes per block, while we saved 4*133 from transactions per block
 101 2014-06-09 00:20:03 <sipa> which means we would get 0.25% reindex speed gain from that
 102 2014-06-09 00:20:12 <phantomcircuit> heh malloc is looking more and more expensive
 103 2014-06-09 00:20:38 <sipa> we waste dynamic memory all the time
 104 2014-06-09 00:20:52 <gmaxwell> the profiling often underreports the true cost of the heap allocations too.
 105 2014-06-09 00:20:56 robonerd has joined
 106 2014-06-09 00:21:07 <goosoodude> Ite.
 107 2014-06-09 00:21:46 <phantomcircuit> it seems pretty common for profiling tools to report things that just seem completely nonsensical
 108 2014-06-09 00:22:03 <gmaxwell> sipa: in the last 1000 blocks the median number of transactions is 314. ... yea, so this perhaps suggests that using the SIMD sha256 for it might not yet be a worthwhile excercise.
 109 2014-06-09 00:22:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: my 0.25% number was for avoiding duplicate block hash computations, not merkle tree
 110 2014-06-09 00:22:56 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 111 2014-06-09 00:22:59 <sipa> i'm sure with merkle tree hash speed doubling you can gain more
 112 2014-06-09 00:24:02 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 113 2014-06-09 00:25:20 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it definitely seems like it would be worth doing the same thing for CBlock & CBlockHeader (if possible)
 114 2014-06-09 00:25:43 <sipa> for 0.25% gain, imho no
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 116 2014-06-09 00:26:07 <sipa> but we may find some trivial cases to fix, by just passing an extra hash around
 117 2014-06-09 00:26:40 <phantomcircuit> sipa, im guessing it's more than 0.25% though
 118 2014-06-09 00:27:10 <sipa> is my math wrong?
 119 2014-06-09 00:28:13 <phantomcircuit> hmm actually this call graph is only for the first 50k blocks
 120 2014-06-09 00:28:37 <phantomcircuit> i should let this run through a complete reindex before looking at it
 121 2014-06-09 00:28:39 <phantomcircuit> impatience :P
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 123 2014-06-09 00:30:19 <phantomcircuit> sipa, http://i.imgur.com/vDhdzH5.png
 124 2014-06-09 00:30:29 <phantomcircuit> got a nice laugh at vprintf
 125 2014-06-09 00:31:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: right, ... apparently the 4-way SIMD sha256 has 3.4x more throughput than the openssl scalar sha256, assuming perfect loading. so actually the speedup sounds like it would be pretty good for even as few as 300 transactions.
 126 2014-06-09 00:32:16 <phantomcircuit> this is going to take a long long time to reindex under valgrind...
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 128 2014-06-09 00:33:15 <shesek> how much fees would you estimate is needed for a tx of 15kb?
 129 2014-06-09 00:33:41 <phantomcircuit> actually the reindex could be pipelined and the consistency checks run in parallel...
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 133 2014-06-09 00:46:48 <phantomcircuit> 2014-06-09 00:42:48 UpdateTip: new best=000000000001083432dadda634904778fb72b15ec6ac92ff5e00345b82120a6c  height=111570  log2_work=60.5591  tx=307097  date=2011-03-03 15:38:25 progress=0.004016
 134 2014-06-09 00:46:54 <phantomcircuit> progress bar is depressingly accurate
 135 2014-06-09 00:48:19 <goosoodude> So first off, Luke-Jr? By blockchain obfuscation, do you mean transaction anonymity, or do you mean the obfuscation that Ethereum is taking on?
 136 2014-06-09 00:48:57 <Luke-Jr> goosoodude: no, just a cheap XOR of the blockchain data on disk
 137 2014-06-09 00:49:05 <goosoodude> ok
 138 2014-06-09 00:49:10 <Luke-Jr> goosoodude: so braindead software doesn't mistake it as something else
 139 2014-06-09 00:49:20 <goosoodude> Ah, ok. I understand it now.
 140 2014-06-09 00:49:41 <goosoodude> So, mainly, keep norton and other awful anti-viruses from picking it up.
 141 2014-06-09 00:49:42 <Luke-Jr> eg, right now someone can embed a virus signature in the blockchain to make antivirus delete your blockchain files
 142 2014-06-09 00:49:45 <Luke-Jr> yeah
 143 2014-06-09 00:49:52 <goosoodude> ok
 144 2014-06-09 00:50:46 <btc123> if you just XOR it, then they'll put the XOR'd signature in and it will invert and be detected again ;p
 145 2014-06-09 00:51:32 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 146 2014-06-09 00:51:59 <btc123> but yes, probably need some cheap encryption/obfuscation
 147 2014-06-09 00:52:04 <gmaxwell> btc123: the 'xor' would be either per host or per txid.
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 149 2014-06-09 00:52:39 <btc123> gmaxwell: oh good point. lol
 150 2014-06-09 00:52:50 <sipa> per txid seems very hard for the blockchain file
 151 2014-06-09 00:53:27 <gmaxwell> (oh I missed that the context was the blockchain file, yea, that would be per host or per block hash)
 152 2014-06-09 00:55:24 cadaverr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 153 2014-06-09 00:55:31 <goosoodude> Would it be appropriate to figure out WHY the antiviruses are detecting it, and move on from there? Or, I mean, should I just tackle it from what I know?
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 157 2014-06-09 00:58:39 <gmaxwell> We know why. Because people intentionally put virus signatures in txouts.
 158 2014-06-09 00:59:19 <uiop> heh
 159 2014-06-09 00:59:26 <goosoodude> ok.
 160 2014-06-09 00:59:30 redshiftzero has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 161 2014-06-09 00:59:46 <btc123> hah
 162 2014-06-09 01:00:11 <phantomcircuit> block 135k is only 1.2% progress
 163 2014-06-09 01:00:13 <phantomcircuit> lol
 164 2014-06-09 01:00:15 <btc123> goosoodude: has a virus scanner picked it up from you?
 165 2014-06-09 01:00:18 <phantomcircuit> this is going to take hours
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 168 2014-06-09 01:00:42 <uiop> i wonder how big the smallest virus signatures (that are current, whatever) are
 169 2014-06-09 01:00:49 <goosoodude> no. Need to download Norton. Obviously, starting with the king of false positives.
 170 2014-06-09 01:01:23 <buZz> startkeylogger ? :)
 171 2014-06-09 01:01:42 <btc123> anyway, gmaxwell /sipa have a good solution, just xor the block data with the hash. problem solved
 172 2014-06-09 01:02:11 <shesek> Luke-Jr, it seems like eligius's pushtx is choking on large transactions
 173 2014-06-09 01:02:20 <phantomcircuit> if the progress meter is correct it's going to take me about 2 full days to completely reindex under valgrind
 174 2014-06-09 01:02:24 <phantomcircuit> sigh
 175 2014-06-09 01:02:38 <phantomcircuit> guess i should move this to a server
 176 2014-06-09 01:03:48 <goosoodude> Who's to say it won't pick up on the xor?
 177 2014-06-09 01:04:15 <phantomcircuit> goosoodude, common sense and math
 178 2014-06-09 01:05:00 <uiop> oh, a virus sig is just a grep or something..
 179 2014-06-09 01:05:45 <phantomcircuit> sigh
 180 2014-06-09 01:05:59 <btc123> goosoodude: sounds like you have some learning to do,
 181 2014-06-09 01:06:00 <phantomcircuit> with xor the data would be completely random
 182 2014-06-09 01:06:06 <phantomcircuit> the only signature there is entropy
 183 2014-06-09 01:06:23 <phantomcircuit> in which case the av would delete random data files also
 184 2014-06-09 01:06:44 <goosoodude> I do. I got into bitcoin because of a learning experience, and I'm going to continue that :P
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 187 2014-06-09 01:08:17 <uiop> it'd be pretty cheep for an av scanner to also search for all signatures' xors, seems like something they'd do so as to not get shown up by some dood that just rot13'ed everything and owned everyone's system
 188 2014-06-09 01:08:45 <gmaxwell> uh, thats not possible.
 189 2014-06-09 01:09:04 <gmaxwell> every string is the xor of every other string of the same length for some xor mask.
 190 2014-06-09 01:09:23 * uiop is assuming signature := set of substring matches there
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 192 2014-06-09 01:09:28 <btc123> uiop: it would be xor'd with the block hash. totally random
 193 2014-06-09 01:09:40 <uiop> oh, wait. i'm an idiot
 194 2014-06-09 01:09:56 <btc123> ;p
 195 2014-06-09 01:09:57 <uiop> my brain read bit not
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 197 2014-06-09 01:11:23 <btc123> bbl
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 199 2014-06-09 01:13:30 <uiop> iirc websocket protocol does something possibly-analogous-in-motivation with every frame
 200 2014-06-09 01:14:27 <uiop> err, just client->server direction that is
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 238 2014-06-09 02:42:57 <harding> sipa: I'm writing a section for the bitcoin.org developer docs about compressed pub keys and I'm wondering if you have the script/code you used to make these illustrations so I can repurpose it to illustrate x coord + "which side" bit: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/21907/what-does-the-curve-used-in-bitcoin-secp256k1-look-like
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 302 2014-06-09 04:11:07 <phantomcircuit> damn
 303 2014-06-09 04:11:17 <phantomcircuit> left valgrind running for 3 hours w/o --tool=callgrind
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 335 2014-06-09 05:02:31 <grunz> Can anyone tell me why there is no bitcoin.conf file in ~/Library/App Support/Bitcoin?
 336 2014-06-09 05:02:54 <grunz> should I wait untill my client syncronize all blocks?
 337 2014-06-09 05:03:17 <grunz> 0.9.1 Mac Bitcoin-Qt
 338 2014-06-09 05:04:01 Zoop_ has joined
 339 2014-06-09 05:05:07 <BlueMatt> michagogo/wumpus: no, contrib/debian is not used in the debian package (much to my chagrin)
 340 2014-06-09 05:05:40 <BlueMatt> Ive asked about it and the debian maintainer's response is that he prefers to use a specific package building suite, so refuses to use our thing
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 345 2014-06-09 05:20:40 <michagogo> BlueMatt: how do our debian dirs differ, do you know?
 346 2014-06-09 05:21:10 <michagogo> grunz: this is more of a #bitcoin question, but you don't need a bitcoin.conf
 347 2014-06-09 05:21:52 <michagogo> So it's not autocreated. If you want to set something there, create it.
 348 2014-06-09 05:22:14 <grunz> michagogo: ok. thank you. I moved this question to that group
 349 2014-06-09 05:22:36 mappum has joined
 350 2014-06-09 05:22:36 <michagogo> BlueMatt: (also, when you say you asked, did you ask recently? I think the maintainers changed at some point.)
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 354 2014-06-09 05:26:20 <BlueMatt> michagogo: our ones are based on the debian ones but Ive pretty substantially rewritten parts of it
 355 2014-06-09 05:27:49 <BlueMatt> the debian one uses a bigger framework, but I cant install that framework on arch (I dont use ubuntu/debian anymore....) so it doesnt use one anymore (and I see no point in such a framework...)
 356 2014-06-09 05:28:04 <BlueMatt> I havent spoken to the debian maintainer(s) in quite a while, no
 357 2014-06-09 05:28:11 <BlueMatt> I spoke with jonas, dunno if he's still the guy
 358 2014-06-09 05:28:34 <BlueMatt> still, I'm no debian packaging expert, he is, I just try to keep it minimal to minimize risk of me fucking up
 359 2014-06-09 05:28:50 <BlueMatt> (the only reason for the ppa is because debian/ubuntu NEVER FUCKING UPDATE)
 360 2014-06-09 05:28:57 <BlueMatt> because....policy
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 362 2014-06-09 05:30:14 <michagogo> BlueMatt: if you thing Debian NFUs, maybe you're thinking of the old maintainers?
 363 2014-06-09 05:30:22 <michagogo> Because Debian does update.
 364 2014-06-09 05:30:38 <michagogo> It's in unstable only, and it updates when we release
 365 2014-06-09 05:30:45 <michagogo> Think*
 366 2014-06-09 05:31:14 <michagogo> Ubuntu NFUs, which is why bug 1314616 (I think) is an SRU to remove the package
 367 2014-06-09 05:31:46 <michagogo> I think the current maintainers include Scott Howard, if that name rings a bell?
 368 2014-06-09 05:32:23 <BlueMatt> nfus?
 369 2014-06-09 05:32:48 <BlueMatt> again, I'm certainly no expert on debian/ubuntu packaging, the reason for the ppa is that there used to be very outdated versions in the repos and we needed them to be updated
 370 2014-06-09 05:33:31 <michagogo> 8:25:30 <BlueMatt> (the only reason for the ppa is because debian/ubuntu NEVER FUCKING UPDATE)
 371 2014-06-09 05:33:36 <BlueMatt> ahh
 372 2014-06-09 05:33:43 <michagogo> BlueMatt: well, soon there won't be
 373 2014-06-09 05:33:45 <BlueMatt> I was, at some point, cc'd on the ubuntu bug to remove the package
 374 2014-06-09 05:33:50 <BlueMatt> so I was aware of it
 375 2014-06-09 05:34:06 <michagogo> (Except for EOL'd Ubuntus)
 376 2014-06-09 05:34:44 <BlueMatt> so now there will be no bitcoin package in ubuntu, no?
 377 2014-06-09 05:34:48 <BlueMatt> so we will /need/ to keep the ppa?
 378 2014-06-09 05:34:51 <michagogo> Since Debian's been updating for a while, and it was removed from trusty and blacklisted from being pulled in from Debian
 379 2014-06-09 05:34:52 <BlueMatt> whats the status of debian?
 380 2014-06-09 05:34:53 <michagogo> Right.
 381 2014-06-09 05:34:58 <BlueMatt> can we get the same thing there?
 382 2014-06-09 05:35:00 <michagogo> I just said
 383 2014-06-09 05:35:03 <BlueMatt> oh
 384 2014-06-09 05:35:08 <michagogo> It's in unstable-only
 385 2014-06-09 05:35:17 <BlueMatt> so we should maintain a ppa-equivalent for debain, then, too, no?
 386 2014-06-09 05:35:18 <michagogo> It's kept up to date
 387 2014-06-09 05:35:43 <michagogo> I don't think Debian has PPAs, do they?
 388 2014-06-09 05:35:54 <BlueMatt> no, ppa is ubuntu-specific
 389 2014-06-09 05:35:58 <BlueMatt> but we can, ofc, do our own repo
 390 2014-06-09 05:36:05 <BlueMatt> (we'd have to build ourself)
 391 2014-06-09 05:36:12 <michagogo> Anyway, g2g for a bit
 392 2014-06-09 05:36:20 <michagogo> I can continue talking from the cat
 393 2014-06-09 05:36:22 <michagogo> Cat
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 396 2014-06-09 05:37:22 <BlueMatt> well, I have little opinion on all this, I'm happy ubuntu is removing it and am happy to keep maintaining the ppa and maintain a debian repo, but I dont particularly want to set up a repo (we'd need hosting and things)
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 403 2014-06-09 05:49:40 <michagogo> I'd be interested to know what the differences are between our package and theirs.
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 428 2014-06-09 06:38:06 <sipa> grunz: if you don't write one, there is none
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 438 2014-06-09 06:55:15 <fanquake> ;;blocks
 439 2014-06-09 06:55:16 <gribble> 304905
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 442 2014-06-09 07:00:50 <sipa> harding: unsure if instill have it
 443 2014-06-09 07:02:19 <sipa> phantomcircuit: the progress bar uses.a constant speed factor assumption for with/without signature chrcks... it likely overestimates that for valgrind
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 446 2014-06-09 07:05:24 <phantomcircuit> sipa, well either way
 447 2014-06-09 07:05:31 <phantomcircuit> this is going to take a very very very long time
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 451 2014-06-09 07:06:33 <sipa> then don't :)
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 453 2014-06-09 07:07:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, but i want to find out
 454 2014-06-09 07:07:02 <phantomcircuit> :P
 455 2014-06-09 07:07:34 <phantomcircuit> sipa, gmaxwell says he's too busy to meet with me, now i have to actually go to work tomorrow
 456 2014-06-09 07:07:36 <phantomcircuit> so sad :(
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 460 2014-06-09 07:09:30 <sipa> :)
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 463 2014-06-09 07:09:47 <sipa> tomorrow = monday or tuesday?
 464 2014-06-09 07:09:57 <phantomcircuit> monday
 465 2014-06-09 07:10:08 <phantomcircuit> california
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 467 2014-06-09 07:11:05 <sipa> ah
 468 2014-06-09 07:11:43 <sipa> thanks to christians, i have a holiday on monday (=today) for which i have no clue what it is about
 469 2014-06-09 07:11:51 <phantomcircuit> lol
 470 2014-06-09 07:13:21 YoY has joined
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 472 2014-06-09 07:13:34 <phantomcircuit> sigh i should go to sleep
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 475 2014-06-09 07:19:50 <Luke-Jr> sipa: we have holidays every day! none that really stand out today though O.o
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 477 2014-06-09 07:20:02 <Luke-Jr> sipa: maybe you're just trying to celebrate my birthday and just don't realise it? :P
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 745 2014-06-09 10:07:49 <wumpus> we need more sigs for 0.9.2rc2, I'm still the only builder https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs/tree/master/0.9.2rc2
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 753 2014-06-09 10:16:24 <michagogo> wumpus: I should be able to get my build done this afternoon
 754 2014-06-09 10:16:35 <wumpus> michagogo: okay thanks
 755 2014-06-09 10:16:51 <michagogo> (I already built most of the deps, iirc)
 756 2014-06-09 10:17:19 <michagogo> I'm still curious why OpenSSL upgrade changed osx qt but not windows
 757 2014-06-09 10:17:49 <warren> the osx qt isn't deterministic
 758 2014-06-09 10:17:52 <warren> afaict
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 760 2014-06-09 10:18:46 <wumpus> yes, it's curious, I'd say try building the new qt dependency and compare them
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 762 2014-06-09 10:21:13 <michagogo> warren: I think it is
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 764 2014-06-09 10:21:27 <michagogo> wumpus: compare how?
 765 2014-06-09 10:21:31 CoalPowerGorilla has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 766 2014-06-09 10:21:48 <michagogo> (Also, haven't you already built both?)
 767 2014-06-09 10:21:54 <wumpus> michagogo: the order of the files, the sizes of the files, the content of the files in the archive
 768 2014-06-09 10:22:00 <wumpus> michagogo: be a bit creative
 769 2014-06-09 10:22:16 <michagogo> wumpus: ah. I don't really know how to do that...
 770 2014-06-09 10:22:19 <wumpus> michagogo: yes I have already built both, I can send them if you want
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 773 2014-06-09 10:22:53 <michagogo> Does tar tell you what's in an archive and in what order?
 774 2014-06-09 10:23:23 <sipa> tar tvf <filename>
 775 2014-06-09 10:24:08 <michagogo> ;;lucky xkcd tar command bomb
 776 2014-06-09 10:24:08 <gribble> http://xkcd.com/1168/
 777 2014-06-09 10:24:50 <michagogo> ^
 778 2014-06-09 10:26:18 <wumpus> hehe, why is tar that bad
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 780 2014-06-09 10:27:38 <sipa> i never figured out how to do useful things with the top commandline
 781 2014-06-09 10:27:45 <wumpus> it's usually utilities like sed, cut, that I don't get right on first try, but that's probably due to having packed and unpacked thousands of tar files already in my life
 782 2014-06-09 10:27:46 <sipa> or ps
 783 2014-06-09 10:27:52 <wumpus> oh yes, all the ps flags
 784 2014-06-09 10:28:18 <michagogo> wumpus: I'm bad at most unixy stuff :-(
 785 2014-06-09 10:29:10 <sipa> i always use 'ps aux' and 'netstat -ltpn' and 'tar xvzf' and 'bc -ql' and ...
 786 2014-06-09 10:29:54 <michagogo> to show, er, auxiliary processes?
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 788 2014-06-09 10:31:02 <michagogo> What's bc?
 789 2014-06-09 10:31:12 fanquake has left ()
 790 2014-06-09 10:31:23 * michagogo has that symlinked to bitcoin-clo
 791 2014-06-09 10:31:25 <sipa> a = all user processes, u = user-oriented formatting, x = include processes without terminal
 792 2014-06-09 10:31:27 <michagogo> cli*
 793 2014-06-09 10:31:33 <sipa> (i had to look those up, i had no clue)
 794 2014-06-09 10:31:51 <sipa> how do you do math on a commandline without bc? :p
 795 2014-06-09 10:32:03 <michagogo> Er, I don't think I do?
 796 2014-06-09 10:32:06 <sipa> it's an arbitrary-precision calculator
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 798 2014-06-09 10:32:17 <wumpus> I use python for that, usually
 799 2014-06-09 10:33:14 <michagogo> sipa: ah. What's 2500000000/51105771094680002560? Gribble returns 0.
 800 2014-06-09 10:33:49 <sipa> $ echo "2500000000/51105771094680002560" | bc -ql
 801 2014-06-09 10:33:49 <sipa> .00000000004891815437
 802 2014-06-09 10:34:05 <michagogo> That is how many satoshis a single hash is worth.
 803 2014-06-09 10:35:14 <sipa> :D
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 805 2014-06-09 10:35:47 <sipa> only disadvantage to bc is that it doesn't have a usable power function
 806 2014-06-09 10:36:01 <sipa> to compute a**b, you need to use e(l(b)*a)
 807 2014-06-09 10:36:10 <sipa> um
 808 2014-06-09 10:36:13 <sipa> e(l(a)*b)
 809 2014-06-09 10:36:23 <michagogo> You lost me...
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 811 2014-06-09 10:37:25 <sipa> a**b = exp(log(a)) ** b = exp(log(a) * b)
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 814 2014-06-09 10:39:58 <michagogo> What do exp and log do?
 815 2014-06-09 10:40:03 <sipa> ...
 816 2014-06-09 10:40:09 <sipa> nevermind :)
 817 2014-06-09 10:40:10 <michagogo> exp sounds like it should be what you want...
 818 2014-06-09 10:40:28 <sipa> well, yes, but exp in bc is 'e' and log is 'l'
 819 2014-06-09 10:40:41 <wumpus> exp parses an expression and log logs to disk :p
 820 2014-06-09 10:40:54 <sipa> historical versions only had single-character symbols
 821 2014-06-09 10:41:17 <michagogo> I mean, is exp something other than exponent?
 822 2014-06-09 10:41:20 <sipa> so there's e(xp), l(og), a(tan), s(in), c(os), ...
 823 2014-06-09 10:41:45 <sipa> it's the exponential function
 824 2014-06-09 10:41:54 <sipa> but there is no power operator
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 826 2014-06-09 10:42:25 <michagogo> ...I thought exponent was another word for power
 827 2014-06-09 10:42:36 <sipa> exp(x) = e ** x
 828 2014-06-09 10:42:50 <michagogo> e the number?
 829 2014-06-09 10:42:51 <sipa> yes
 830 2014-06-09 10:43:12 <sipa> so exp(log(x)) = x
 831 2014-06-09 10:43:28 <wumpus> michagogo: it is, but in programming languages it's usually that exp is e^x,  and log or ln is log_e(x)
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 833 2014-06-09 10:43:53 <sipa> right, i'm confusing math notation with actual code here
 834 2014-06-09 10:44:46 * michagogo knows that log is something mathy
 835 2014-06-09 10:44:48 <wumpus> sometimes a log(x,y) as well as a power(x,y) with two parameters, in which you can provide the base instead of using e
 836 2014-06-09 10:45:02 <sipa> michagogo: it's the inverse function of exp(x) :)
 837 2014-06-09 10:45:04 <wumpus> but bc seemingly doesn't
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 839 2014-06-09 10:45:33 <sipa> log(x) is to which power you need to raise the constant e to get x
 840 2014-06-09 10:46:19 <sipa> anyway, offtopic :)
 841 2014-06-09 10:46:38 <michagogo> e is one of those numbers that continue infinitely in decimal form, right?
 842 2014-06-09 10:46:53 <sipa> yes
 843 2014-06-09 10:46:58 <sipa> ;;calc e
 844 2014-06-09 10:46:58 <gribble> 2.71828182846
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 848 2014-06-09 10:49:25 <michagogo> ;;calc e**10
 849 2014-06-09 10:49:25 <gribble> 22026.4657948
 850 2014-06-09 10:49:45 <michagogo> So log(22026.4657948) is 10?
 851 2014-06-09 10:50:01 <sipa> ;;calc log($ echo "2500000000/51105771094680002560" | bc -ql
 852 2014-06-09 10:50:01 <sipa> .00000000004891815437
 853 2014-06-09 10:50:01 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
 854 2014-06-09 10:50:16 <sipa> ;;calc log(22026.46579)
 855 2014-06-09 10:50:16 <gribble> 9.99999999978
 856 2014-06-09 10:50:29 <sipa> ;;calc exp(10)
 857 2014-06-09 10:50:30 <gribble> 22026.4657948
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 861 2014-06-09 10:50:48 <sipa> and there's a fun rule that log_a(x) = log(x) / log(a)
 862 2014-06-09 10:51:02 <sipa> so: to which power do you need to raise 2 to get 1024?
 863 2014-06-09 10:51:08 <sipa> ;;calc log(1024) / log(2)
 864 2014-06-09 10:51:09 <gribble> 10
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 907 2014-06-09 11:49:03 <elichai2-> hey
 908 2014-06-09 11:49:19 <elichai2-> i just compiled bitcoin-0.9 (i need that specific version for a test)
 909 2014-06-09 11:49:28 <elichai2-> and i can't find the bitcoin-qt binary
 910 2014-06-09 11:49:58 <elichai2-> ohh just found it
 911 2014-06-09 11:50:02 <elichai2-> forget what i just said :)
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 914 2014-06-09 11:53:16 <elichai2-> to use sendrawtransaction i need to first sync my client?
 915 2014-06-09 11:53:24 <elichai2-> or i can do that with unsynced client?
 916 2014-06-09 11:54:19 <sipa> depends
 917 2014-06-09 11:54:30 <sipa> you can pass the utxos yourself to the rpc if you knoe them
 918 2014-06-09 11:54:38 <sipa> in that case.you don't need to be synced
 919 2014-06-09 11:54:48 <sipa> if you need bitciin to find them for.you, you do
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 922 2014-06-09 11:58:24 <therp> sipa: sendrawtransaction just takes a hexstring, why is the utxo set involved?
 923 2014-06-09 11:58:57 <therp> ah not set
 924 2014-06-09 11:59:35 <sipa> oh sorry
 925 2014-06-09 11:59:38 <sipa> i misread
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 927 2014-06-09 12:00:09 <sipa> bitcoind will like fail to send a transaction if you're not synced, as it would consider it invalid
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 929 2014-06-09 12:01:03 <michagogo> 13:47:32 <sipa> so: to which power do you need to raise 2 to get 1024?
 930 2014-06-09 12:01:04 <michagogo> 13:47:38 <sipa> ;;calc log(1024) / log(2)
 931 2014-06-09 12:01:35 <michagogo> So am I thinking correctly that you can use that to figure out how many bits you need to store a certain number?
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 934 2014-06-09 12:01:59 <sipa> yes!
 935 2014-06-09 12:02:11 <therp> michagogo: sort of. you will find the highest set bit. you still need to frame the information somehow
 936 2014-06-09 12:02:17 <sipa> though log is really inefficient to implement
 937 2014-06-09 12:02:18 <michagogo> Well, yeah
 938 2014-06-09 12:02:28 <sipa> just counting the bits is faster usually :)
 939 2014-06-09 12:02:41 <michagogo> So for example, if I have a random number from 1 to 500000000000
 940 2014-06-09 12:02:57 <michagogo> ;;calc log(500000000000)/log(2)
 941 2014-06-09 12:02:57 <gribble> 38.8631371386
 942 2014-06-09 12:03:03 <sipa> 39 bits
 943 2014-06-09 12:03:15 <michagogo> I need 39 bits to store the result
 944 2014-06-09 12:03:16 <michagogo> right
 945 2014-06-09 12:03:49 <michagogo> Is that also how many bits of entropy would be in that random number?
 946 2014-06-09 12:04:05 <sipa> if it's uniformly chosen, yes
 947 2014-06-09 12:04:06 <therp> let's say it can't be more than that :)
 948 2014-06-09 12:04:11 <michagogo> Right.
 949 2014-06-09 12:04:33 benrcole has joined
 950 2014-06-09 12:04:54 <michagogo> so if x^y=z
 951 2014-06-09 12:05:08 <michagogo> y=log(x)/log(z)?
 952 2014-06-09 12:05:20 <michagogo> erm
 953 2014-06-09 12:05:29 <michagogo> y=log(z)/log(x)?
 954 2014-06-09 12:05:36 <sipa> yes
 955 2014-06-09 12:05:38 <elichai2-> sipa: so, i can send it or not?
 956 2014-06-09 12:05:49 <elichai2-> i have hex raw tx i want to send it to the network
 957 2014-06-09 12:05:52 <michagogo> Okay, the question is if I'll actually remember this :P
 958 2014-06-09 12:05:54 <sipa> elichai2-: just don't use bitcoind
 959 2014-06-09 12:05:56 <elichai2-> but my client isn't synced
 960 2014-06-09 12:06:02 <sipa> elichai2-: or at least, not your own
 961 2014-06-09 12:06:06 <elichai2-> sipa: so use what? bitcoin-qt?
 962 2014-06-09 12:06:14 <therp> elichai2: electrum supports that
 963 2014-06-09 12:06:14 Raziel has joined
 964 2014-06-09 12:06:15 <michagogo> bitcoind = bitcoin-qt for this purpose
 965 2014-06-09 12:06:25 <sipa> there must be dozens of sites where you can paste a hex raw transaction
 966 2014-06-09 12:06:26 <michagogo> elichai2-: in what context?
 967 2014-06-09 12:06:28 <elichai2-> i need bitcoin core under version 1.0
 968 2014-06-09 12:06:33 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 969 2014-06-09 12:06:36 <elichai2-> does maybe anyone have that?
 970 2014-06-09 12:06:36 <sipa> why?
 971 2014-06-09 12:06:37 <michagogo> elichai2-: all bitcoin core is under version 1.0
 972 2014-06-09 12:06:38 <elichai2-> (and synced)
 973 2014-06-09 12:06:44 <elichai2-> sipa: it's a test
 974 2014-06-09 12:06:54 <elichai2-> michagogo: i meant o.1 sorry
 975 2014-06-09 12:06:58 <elichai2-> *0.1
 976 2014-06-09 12:07:02 <sipa> 0.1 ?
 977 2014-06-09 12:07:06 <michagogo> Um, 0.1?
 978 2014-06-09 12:07:06 <sipa> that won't work
 979 2014-06-09 12:07:10 <michagogo> That won't connect to the network
 980 2014-06-09 12:07:15 <elichai2-> opsss
 981 2014-06-09 12:07:17 <elichai2-> not 0.1
 982 2014-06-09 12:07:19 <therp> elichai2-: if you have a blockchain.info account you can use their bitcoind RPC access for sendrawtransaction
 983 2014-06-09 12:07:24 <sipa> the p2p protocol is only backward compatible down to 0.2.10
 984 2014-06-09 12:07:26 <elichai2-> i'm a little unfocus
 985 2014-06-09 12:07:27 <elichai2-> 0.9
 986 2014-06-09 12:07:30 <elichai2-> under 0.9.1
 987 2014-06-09 12:07:31 <elichai2-> :)
 988 2014-06-09 12:07:37 <michagogo> erm
 989 2014-06-09 12:07:40 <michagogo> 0.9.0 = 0.9.1
 990 2014-06-09 12:07:54 <michagogo> Literally the only difference is in the version of OpenSSL used for the release binaries
 991 2014-06-09 12:08:00 hhhzzzz75 has joined
 992 2014-06-09 12:08:02 <elichai2-> ok, this is last one: o.9 and under
 993 2014-06-09 12:08:07 <elichai2-> yeah but it's important
 994 2014-06-09 12:08:17 <elichai2-> it's an argue
 995 2014-06-09 12:08:19 <michagogo> elichai2-: is 0.9.1 okay?
 996 2014-06-09 12:08:25 <michagogo> I mean
 997 2014-06-09 12:08:28 <michagogo> Is 0.9.0 okay?
 998 2014-06-09 12:08:33 <michagogo> If it is, so is 0.9.1
 999 2014-06-09 12:08:55 <michagogo> (unless you're planning to exploit heartbleed)
1000 2014-06-09 12:08:55 <elichai2-> 0.9.0 is ok
1001 2014-06-09 12:09:02 <elichai2-> (i know what you saying)
1002 2014-06-09 12:09:07 <elichai2-> but it's not my call
1003 2014-06-09 12:09:07 <sipa> so 0.9.1 is okay?
1004 2014-06-09 12:09:14 <elichai2-> yes
1005 2014-06-09 12:09:17 <michagogo> elichai2-: If this test doesn't involve heartbleed, 0.9.1 is just as okay as 0.9.0
1006 2014-06-09 12:09:24 <sipa> is 0.9.2 okay?
1007 2014-06-09 12:09:25 <michagogo> They're identical
1008 2014-06-09 12:09:31 <elichai2-> no
1009 2014-06-09 12:09:41 <michagogo> 0.9.2 isn't out yet :P
1010 2014-06-09 12:09:42 <elichai2-> not above 0.9.1
1011 2014-06-09 12:09:49 <elichai2-> michagogo: ok, thx
1012 2014-06-09 12:09:58 <sipa> whay exactly do you want to test?
1013 2014-06-09 12:10:02 <michagogo> elichai2-: what ar-
1014 2014-06-09 12:10:04 <michagogo> ^^
1015 2014-06-09 12:10:04 <elichai2-> i want to test multisig
1016 2014-06-09 12:10:15 <michagogo> Test in what way?
1017 2014-06-09 12:10:23 <elichai2-> there is someone that saying that it's impossible myltisig above 3 signatures
1018 2014-06-09 12:10:24 <sipa> standardness of multisig has changed for a long time
1019 2014-06-09 12:10:31 <sipa> yes, for raw multisig
1020 2014-06-09 12:10:37 <elichai2-> so i created a multisig with 6 of 10 and signed it
1021 2014-06-09 12:10:39 <elichai2-> yeah
1022 2014-06-09 12:10:46 <sipa> p2sh or raw?
1023 2014-06-09 12:10:47 <elichai2-> i just need you to send that tx
1024 2014-06-09 12:10:50 <michagogo> elichai2-: if you have a multisig *address* that limit doesn't apply
1025 2014-06-09 12:10:50 <elichai2-> raw
1026 2014-06-09 12:10:54 <sipa> won't work
1027 2014-06-09 12:10:59 <elichai2-> sipa: why?
1028 2014-06-09 12:11:02 <sipa> unless you pay a miner to include it directly
1029 2014-06-09 12:11:09 <michagogo> elichai2-: is this multisig an address starting with 3?
1030 2014-06-09 12:11:10 <sipa> it's not standard, so no node will relay it
1031 2014-06-09 12:11:11 <elichai2-> really? why?
1032 2014-06-09 12:11:12 banghouse has joined
1033 2014-06-09 12:11:15 <elichai2-> michagogo: yeah
1034 2014-06-09 12:11:22 <sipa> then it is p2sh
1035 2014-06-09 12:11:22 <michagogo> So it's p2sh, not raw
1036 2014-06-09 12:11:32 <elichai2-> ok, if you say so..
1037 2014-06-09 12:11:37 <elichai2-> it dosen't matter to me lol
1038 2014-06-09 12:11:40 <sipa> how did you create it?
1039 2014-06-09 12:11:41 <michagogo> 6 of 10 in p2sh is fine
1040 2014-06-09 12:11:44 <elichai2-> (i don't know the diffrence)
1041 2014-06-09 12:11:50 <michagogo> (don't be confused by "raw transactions")
1042 2014-06-09 12:11:52 <elichai2-> michagogo: so can u send that tx for me?
1043 2014-06-09 12:11:52 cbeams has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1044 2014-06-09 12:11:57 <elichai2-> ok, :)
1045 2014-06-09 12:12:05 <michagogo> elichai2-: blockchain.info/pushtx
1046 2014-06-09 12:12:09 <sipa> how did you create it?
1047 2014-06-09 12:12:09 <michagogo> or eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/pushtxn.php
1048 2014-06-09 12:12:29 <elichai2-> noooo i need it to be sent through bitcoin core version 0.9.1 or less
1049 2014-06-09 12:12:32 <elichai2-> it's important
1050 2014-06-09 12:12:42 <elichai2-> sipa: with http://coinb.in/multisig/#newKeys
1051 2014-06-09 12:12:45 <michagogo> Or webbtc.com/relay_tx
1052 2014-06-09 12:12:53 <michagogo> elichai2-: ...how come?
1053 2014-06-09 12:13:19 <michagogo> It doesn't matter where it's sent
1054 2014-06-09 12:13:19 <michagogo> It'll either make it into the mempool of BC or it won't
1055 2014-06-09 12:13:19 <michagogo> (also, annoying... my messages are being delayed by several seconds)
1056 2014-06-09 12:13:42 <elichai2-> plz
1057 2014-06-09 12:13:48 <elichai2-> it's just for the argue
1058 2014-06-09 12:14:08 <elichai2-> as you said '< sipa> unless you pay a miner to include it directly'
1059 2014-06-09 12:14:16 <michagogo> elichai2-: What argue?
1060 2014-06-09 12:14:24 <elichai2-> i don't want him to say that this site is paying a miner to add it
1061 2014-06-09 12:14:25 <michagogo> Who's arguing?
1062 2014-06-09 12:14:37 <elichai2-> michagogo: i have an arguement with someone if it's possible or not
1063 2014-06-09 12:14:52 <elichai2-> he saying that it is only if you give it to a miner that will accept it
1064 2014-06-09 12:14:57 <michagogo> ...okay, just pastebin it
1065 2014-06-09 12:15:27 <elichai2-> http://pastebin.com/zWyAaiMt
1066 2014-06-09 12:15:33 Grouver has joined
1067 2014-06-09 12:15:36 <elichai2-> how much time bitcoin core support p2sh?
1068 2014-06-09 12:15:53 <sipa> since 0.5 or so
1069 2014-06-09 12:16:13 mr_burdell has joined
1070 2014-06-09 12:16:23 banghouse has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1071 2014-06-09 12:16:31 <elichai2-> michagogo: you sending it?
1072 2014-06-09 12:16:35 cap2002 has joined
1073 2014-06-09 12:17:01 <michagogo> As soon as my node finishes launching
1074 2014-06-09 12:17:20 <sipa> i'm not convinced it will send
1075 2014-06-09 12:17:26 <michagogo> Oh?
1076 2014-06-09 12:17:34 <sipa> there is a standardness rule on script size
1077 2014-06-09 12:17:41 <michagogo> Ah, is it too big?
1078 2014-06-09 12:17:45 <sipa> which was very recently relaxed (not yet in a release)
1079 2014-06-09 12:17:51 <michagogo> Ahhh
1080 2014-06-09 12:18:10 banghouse has joined
1081 2014-06-09 12:18:44 <michagogo> a 1108-byte scriptsig
1082 2014-06-09 12:18:52 <michagogo> Ah.
1083 2014-06-09 12:18:57 tcatm has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1084 2014-06-09 12:19:10 <michagogo> Sorry, make that 1107
1085 2014-06-09 12:19:11 <sipa> it used to be max 500 iirc
1086 2014-06-09 12:19:21 <michagogo> That sounds familiar
1087 2014-06-09 12:19:24 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1088 2014-06-09 12:20:11 llllllllll has joined
1089 2014-06-09 12:20:43 benrcole1 has joined
1090 2014-06-09 12:20:51 <elichai2-> so it won't work?
1091 2014-06-09 12:20:56 <sipa> no
1092 2014-06-09 12:21:25 YoY has joined
1093 2014-06-09 12:21:28 <michagogo> It will once enough of the network (and miners) is on a version that increases the scriptSig limit
1094 2014-06-09 12:21:59 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1095 2014-06-09 12:23:05 <elichai2-> can you plz even try?
1096 2014-06-09 12:23:06 tcatm has joined
1097 2014-06-09 12:23:26 <elichai2-> (btw, how you counted the numbers?)
1098 2014-06-09 12:23:37 <michagogo> elichai2-: erm, ruby
1099 2014-06-09 12:23:47 <michagogo> In irb, Clipboard.paste.length/2
1100 2014-06-09 12:24:20 <elichai2-> lol, it's 2388 characters
1101 2014-06-09 12:24:24 <michagogo> {"code"=>-22, "message"=>"TX rejected"}
1102 2014-06-09 12:24:25 <sipa> echo -n "scripthex" | wc -c
1103 2014-06-09 12:24:40 <elichai2-> how much charecters it need to be?
1104 2014-06-09 12:25:14 * michagogo goes sourcediving
1105 2014-06-09 12:25:52 <elichai2-> btw, there is somewhere a code that i can use it to create multisig, and sign etc. by myself? (i need it to other coin, not BTC)
1106 2014-06-09 12:25:54 grunz has joined
1107 2014-06-09 12:26:23 <sipa> then ask the other coin people
1108 2014-06-09 12:26:38 banghouse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1109 2014-06-09 12:27:13 <elichai2-> no that's the thing, i know them... they copied litecoin
1110 2014-06-09 12:27:19 <elichai2-> (or maybe dogecoin)
1111 2014-06-09 12:27:28 <elichai2-> and just changed the prefences...
1112 2014-06-09 12:27:35 <Apocalyptic> how is that the thing ?
1113 2014-06-09 12:27:37 <elichai2-> and i want to do multisig in their coin...
1114 2014-06-09 12:27:40 <Apocalyptic> sipa told you clearly
1115 2014-06-09 12:27:48 aquarat has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1116 2014-06-09 12:27:51 <michagogo> Current master limit: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/62fdf381fa707206140f80e010e15de23ca3c8fd/src/main.cpp#L521
1117 2014-06-09 12:28:12 <elichai2-> so my money is stuck in that multisig address?
1118 2014-06-09 12:28:24 <michagogo> Changed in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/4d79098ad548874ca6e4c09d873fc2f481e6edb4
1119 2014-06-09 12:28:51 <michagogo> elichai2-: nah
1120 2014-06-09 12:28:57 <michagogo> Just get a miner to mine that tx for you
1121 2014-06-09 12:30:12 easye has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
1122 2014-06-09 12:30:25 grunz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1123 2014-06-09 12:30:36 easye has joined
1124 2014-06-09 12:30:47 <elichai2-> so thats the thing? because it's bigger so i must to get a miner for it?
1125 2014-06-09 12:30:55 <michagogo> elichai2-: no
1126 2014-06-09 12:30:55 <elichai2-> i just want to understand the problem...
1127 2014-06-09 12:30:58 <michagogo> well, sort of
1128 2014-06-09 12:30:58 <elichai2-> and why is it...
1129 2014-06-09 12:30:59 <sipa> you always "get a miner for it"
1130 2014-06-09 12:31:09 <sipa> however, to get it to miners, you briadcast it
1131 2014-06-09 12:31:15 <michagogo> Basically, current versions of Bitcoin Core have a limit of 500 bytes on the scriptSig
1132 2014-06-09 12:31:27 <sipa> you made a transaction that is outside of what is considered safe, so the network won't relay it for you
1133 2014-06-09 12:31:33 <elichai2-> how much char is it 500 bytes?
1134 2014-06-09 12:31:37 <sipa> it's not invalid though, just not standard
1135 2014-06-09 12:31:38 <michagogo> In IsStandardTx, that is
1136 2014-06-09 12:31:40 samson_ has quit ()
1137 2014-06-09 12:31:45 <michagogo> elichai2-: in hex it's 1000 characters
1138 2014-06-09 12:31:58 <michagogo> But note that that's on the scriptSig, not the whole transaction
1139 2014-06-09 12:32:01 <elichai2-> ohhh mine is almost 2.5 of that lol
1140 2014-06-09 12:32:08 <elichai2-> ohhh
1141 2014-06-09 12:32:10 <elichai2-> ok...
1142 2014-06-09 12:32:15 <michagogo> Your scriptsig is 1107 bytes
1143 2014-06-09 12:32:27 <sipa> every pubkey adds some 34 bytes, every signature 73
1144 2014-06-09 12:32:33 <michagogo> Commit https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/4d79098ad548874ca6e4c09d873fc2f481e6edb4 increases the scriptSig length limit to 1650
1145 2014-06-09 12:32:34 <elichai2-> so what is the maximum multisig signs?
1146 2014-06-09 12:32:38 <sipa> together, it can't be more than 500
1147 2014-06-09 12:32:41 <elichai2-> ok.....
1148 2014-06-09 12:32:45 <sipa> soon, up to 1650 will be allowed
1149 2014-06-09 12:32:47 <michagogo> sipa: or 66
1150 2014-06-09 12:32:54 <michagogo> well, FSVO "soon"
1151 2014-06-09 12:32:57 <michagogo> 0.10, I think?
1152 2014-06-09 12:33:00 <sipa> yes
1153 2014-06-09 12:33:08 <sipa> a few months, hopefully
1154 2014-06-09 12:33:13 <elichai2-> sipa: but ; 34*10+73*6 778
1155 2014-06-09 12:33:43 TheSeven has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1156 2014-06-09 12:34:11 <michagogo> still over 500
1157 2014-06-09 12:34:19 <michagogo> one sec
1158 2014-06-09 12:34:19 <elichai2-> ohhh thats the problem...
1159 2014-06-09 12:34:44 <elichai2-> so the limit is: pubkeys*34+signs*73<500?
1160 2014-06-09 12:34:56 TheSeven has joined
1161 2014-06-09 12:34:59 <elichai2-> there is any more limits?
1162 2014-06-09 12:35:15 banghouse has joined
1163 2014-06-09 12:35:17 <michagogo> {"txid":"acc404ad69fb73b32b6e469f24349c9a08e500659896180c377fea16f6389879","version":1,"locktime":0,"vin":[{"txid":"97493c93d53ad26b242cfd8a73cd1d466df81fe6170598e38a08ce9865ee2191","vout":0,"scriptSig":{"asm":"0 3046022100c58de5451efb7a7be3adf69c26ab8464776ba0b901b3b8ac1517bf8436b6e4db022100ff26390e8b27edd1ec706faa6f47e0af276c7f913e82b4833d9aad0b820e3ebf01
1164 2014-06-09 12:35:17 <michagogo> 304402207983c672880d9bf1b23faa63528cd076a89c55d59fb172b8159960791f795c8302204f2437efa8e1965401c20dd9459a70d01fba93098835d853ff1e88353470783901 3045022100d9149e705bffa7f2efe1b3f6d753c7ccf8760cfcdaeb5500a0b038d6383e099f02207a54dcce9b0b21d9ee6120b84f238dce144d3be78e5d698889d23fcac069f8ae01
1165 2014-06-09 12:35:17 <michagogo> 3046022100b2545890c53a93c134c03dfda6b08d313ceae46bd69a98bca2566ec754a2b637022100c991162573d89c420fff005e7ca4f29d9232f817bf5eef97c43ebca60d48337c01 3046022100a28dc81958d676a75ecd9c19ee1107cbf2bfe8712e9630ec3363ea16f191558e02210081cba214a1d80869615f7fc6f6319060a55b3f714c144849a659d5a667c1eaff01
1166 2014-06-09 12:35:17 <michagogo> 30450221009581c5381250f5134b9c23bb09e0f3cb42ae321d153cc54ab5ceee0971d58aea02205b076aa7f0086035c3b7105607339c35cf74df86b4e65a7a53eefbc4a3113a4f01
1167 2014-06-09 12:35:17 <michagogo> 564104dd02c04ede7e2cc4432f07cd407afb8c9d8f16c15579dcb05af2190bd81f7515a011e001a2939ad47cbd8672028649c278a99b935c7226ccefd2ed13de67c17b41044d3ad54b37bca3b692bc374b2bc776b91000bbd17a1d9a87baacb35d3a5c4385ee2a1efb19f3b2f12f6edd22a273acf71acd7fa177fc57c49952b80af1d4ccb5410485d24656056483fadf21fb1323224df29c4fa07fbd1c571a5bfd273d71308a47992aef4f9d70feeb8073abf9e2
1168 2014-06-09 12:35:17 <michagogo> 117e0c56a8c4918e629994ae3c5c578cd6f40c41041c7a329a8c0c0e2f80d02aa718b6f0368f433d9c426372923e77eb45c0491e3c15f7d5d5906d2e1478b528553131692ae58b86b8e1bb13eda8863f4562f5943b41040b38a525050a44f31e68e68feaf3094c95aaebd794fcc5116a6f9e22c319eb1bf3e1ea307ec94c26eb443dab08e1bd53dc29011e80e58d3ec72539932b806d764104f350a9c76156b6fcc4579d510939389c6f29b22524b0be34adf04d
1169 2014-06-09 12:35:17 <michagogo> f632b7fc640bc44540bf89851331f33fa0b63b54d74730e8826b9ad7e274b74c6621ec998b4104644b1dc851f71c732a21535de530d0e2bb2f9d58d31a7bc5057b478e7bd09e4c12b8a64f41157c0051662f8b4716292aef7f86206c4dc51a8a4f899edeae58b241049ac07e64971b6102b009ca18cc4e61650e10ff6a022596c084a419f53bb2d357072fdc8ec7d8608736fe5d84dbcfd47d163b14a40e34164ea23596b6ebb8ec7841049a87a0cbd9aa96f7ce
1170 2014-06-09 12:35:18 <michagogo> eead947acefc45b7ea25f5db6da69d8ed672a03f642263358f106c263ae774f57598050071369c5554a3a0b95853021040c03c46611f0141049ed3354ea5a143694f4b2a11da3be32c9ab9ee6d658df50924816fdd6d493779b6e1ca0f30920c476678d790ccdf74a370b5995563feed61bc0771585524492c5aae","hex":"00493046022100c58de5451efb7a7be3adf69c26ab8464776ba0b901b3b8ac1517bf8436b6e4db022100ff26390e8b27edd1ec706
1171 2014-06-09 12:35:19 <michagogo> faa6f47e0af276c7f913e82b4833d9aad0b820e3ebf0147304402207983c672880d9bf1b23faa63528cd076a89c55d59fb172b8159960791f795c8302204f2437efa8e1965401c20dd9459a70d01fba93098835d853ff1e88353470783901483045022100d9149e705bffa7f2efe1b3f6d753c7ccf8760cfcdaeb5500a0b038d6383e099f02207a54dcce9b0b21d9ee6120b84f238dce144d3be78e5d698889d23fcac069f8ae01493046022100b2545890c53a9
1172 2014-06-09 12:35:19 <michagogo> 3c134c03dfda6b08d313ceae46bd69a98bca2566ec754a2b637022100c991162573d89c420fff005e7ca4f29d9232f817bf5eef97c43ebca60d48337c01493046022100a28dc81958d676a75ecd9c19ee1107cbf2bfe8712e9630ec3363ea16f191558e02210081cba214a1d80869615f7fc6f6319060a55b3f714c144849a659d5a667c1eaff014830450221009581c5381250f5134b9c23bb09e0f3cb42ae321d153cc54ab5ceee0971d58aea02205b076aa7f
1173 2014-06-09 12:35:19 <michagogo> 0086035c3b7105607339c35cf74df86b4e65a7a53eefbc4a3113a4f014d9702564104dd02c04ede7e2cc4432f07cd407afb8c9d8f16c15579dcb05af2190bd81f7515a011e001a2939ad47cbd8672028649c278a99b935c7226ccefd2ed13de67c17b41044d3ad54b37bca3b692bc374b2bc776b91000bbd17a1d9a87baacb35d3a5c4385ee2a1efb19f3b2f12f6edd22a273acf71acd7fa177fc57c49952b80af1d4ccb5410485d24656056483fadf21fb13232
1174 2014-06-09 12:35:20 <michagogo> 24df29c4fa07fbd1c571a5bfd273d71308a47992aef4f9d70feeb8073abf9e2117e0c56a8c4918e629994ae3c5c578cd6f40c41041c7a329a8c0c0e2f80d02aa718b6f0368f433d9c426372923e77eb45c0491e3c15f7d5d5906d2e1478b528553131692ae58b86b8e1bb13eda8863f4562f5943b41040b38a525050a44f31e68e68feaf3094c95aaebd794fcc5116a6f9e22c319eb1bf3e1ea307ec94c26eb443dab08e1bd53dc29011e80e58d3ec72539932b8
1175 2014-06-09 12:35:21 <michagogo> 06d764104f350a9c76156b6fcc4579d510939389c6f29b22524b0be34adf04df632b7fc640bc44540bf89851331f33fa0b63b54d74730e8826b9ad7e274b74c6621ec998b4104644b1dc851f71c732a21535de530d0e2bb2f9d58d31a7bc5057b478e7bd09e4c12b8a64f41157c0051662f8b4716292aef7f86206c4dc51a8a4f899edeae58b241049ac07e64971b6102b009ca18cc4e61650e10ff6a022596c084a419f53bb2d357072fdc8ec7d8608736fe5d8
1176 2014-06-09 12:35:21 <michagogo> 4dbcfd47d163b14a40e34164ea23596b6ebb8ec7841049a87a0cbd9aa96f7ceeead947acefc45b7ea25f5db6da69d8ed672a03f642263358f106c263ae774f57598050071369c5554a3a0b95853021040c03c46611f0141049ed3354ea5a143694f4b2a11da3be32c9ab9ee6d658df50924816fdd6d493779b6e1ca0f30920c476678d790ccdf74a370b5995563feed61bc0771585524492c5aae"},"sequence":4294967295}],"vout":[{"value":0.0005,
1177 2014-06-09 12:35:48 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1178 2014-06-09 12:36:02 <michagogo> I thought my client would prompt me to pastebin that...
1179 2014-06-09 12:36:16 <elichai2-> seriously? why paste it here?
1180 2014-06-09 12:36:26 <elichai2-> < elichai2-> there is any more limits?
1181 2014-06-09 12:36:27 kmels has joined
1182 2014-06-09 12:36:31 <elichai2-> < elichai2-> there is any more limits?
1183 2014-06-09 12:36:33 <michagogo> elichai2-: yes
1184 2014-06-09 12:36:41 <elichai2->  < elichai2-> there is any more limits?
1185 2014-06-09 12:36:42 <sipa> elichai2-: yes, 34*pubkeys < 510
1186 2014-06-09 12:36:44 <elichai2->  < elichai2-> there is any more limits?
1187 2014-06-09 12:36:54 <elichai2-> <elichai2> there is any more limits?
1188 2014-06-09 12:36:58 <sipa> will you stop?
1189 2014-06-09 12:37:12 <elichai2-> opssss
1190 2014-06-09 12:37:18 <elichai2-> sorry foolish irc client
1191 2014-06-09 12:37:31 <elichai2-> it wasn't on purpose
1192 2014-06-09 12:37:33 <sipa> ok
1193 2014-06-09 12:37:48 <elichai2-> sipa: so no more than 15 pubkeys?
1194 2014-06-09 12:37:55 <sipa> indeed
1195 2014-06-09 12:38:09 <sipa> and that's a consensus rule
1196 2014-06-09 12:38:18 Beef has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1197 2014-06-09 12:38:21 <sipa> or rather, the consequence of a consensus rule, but it only applies to p2sh
1198 2014-06-09 12:38:38 <sipa> so: consensus rules: for raw multisig up to 20 pubkeys, for p2sh up to 15
1199 2014-06-09 12:39:07 ivan` has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
1200 2014-06-09 12:39:22 <elichai2-> and this can fix it? http://pastebin.com/3VBLuDuM
1201 2014-06-09 12:39:33 xenog has joined
1202 2014-06-09 12:39:40 <michagogo> And note that this is all with compressed pubkeys
1203 2014-06-09 12:39:54 banghouse has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1204 2014-06-09 12:40:04 <elichai2-> sipa: and with raw multisig what is the limit for pukeys*34+signs*73?
1205 2014-06-09 12:40:06 <michagogo> uncompressed pubkeys give you a lower limit because they're bigger
1206 2014-06-09 12:40:07 <sipa> standardness rules in 0.9.x: raw multisig up to 3-of-3, p2sh up to 3-of-5
1207 2014-06-09 12:40:13 Swadq has joined
1208 2014-06-09 12:40:30 <elichai2-> michagogo: 044d3ad54b37bca3b692bc374b2bc776b91000bbd17a1d9a87baacb35d3a5c4385ee2a1efb19f3b2f12f6edd22a273acf71acd7fa177fc57c49952b80af1d4ccb5
1209 2014-06-09 12:40:31 <sipa> standardness rules in 0.10: raw multisig up to 3-of-3, p2sh up to 15-of-15
1210 2014-06-09 12:40:33 <elichai2-> this is compressed?
1211 2014-06-09 12:40:37 <sipa> no
1212 2014-06-09 12:40:46 <michagogo> elichai2-: nope
1213 2014-06-09 12:40:49 <michagogo> anyway, g2g
1214 2014-06-09 12:40:52 <michagogo> bbl (or on my phone)
1215 2014-06-09 12:40:55 <dsnrk> 65 bytes for uncompressed, 33 is compressed
1216 2014-06-09 12:40:55 <sipa> compressed ones start with 02 or 03 in hex
1217 2014-06-09 12:41:07 kmels has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1218 2014-06-09 12:41:19 <sipa> any key generated by bitcoind in a wallet created after 0.5 is compressed
1219 2014-06-09 12:41:39 <sipa> sorry, 0.6
1220 2014-06-09 12:41:40 Blackreign has quit ()
1221 2014-06-09 12:42:01 ivan` has joined
1222 2014-06-09 12:42:03 <elichai2-> but you just said that raw can up to 20pubkeys!
1223 2014-06-09 12:42:19 <sipa> i assumed compressed keys everywhere
1224 2014-06-09 12:42:29 <sipa> and yes, raw can go to 20 pubkeys according to the consensus rules
1225 2014-06-09 12:42:34 <sipa> so that's the limit of what is _valid_
1226 2014-06-09 12:42:47 <sipa> but that doesn't mean everyone in the network will accept such a transaction
1227 2014-06-09 12:43:03 <elichai2-> and why 3 of 5? it depends.... 3 of 7 is vaild too! ; 34*7+73*3 457
1228 2014-06-09 12:43:14 aquarat has joined
1229 2014-06-09 12:43:16 <sipa> you're right, i misremembered
1230 2014-06-09 12:43:44 <sipa> 3-of-8 even, with compressed pubkeys
1231 2014-06-09 12:43:59 xenog has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1232 2014-06-09 12:44:26 <elichai2-> and this fix that? https://github.com/israelcoin/Isracoin/commit/6893ff09ea0e2d7d3940b7008b2400c6b9d22061
1233 2014-06-09 12:44:43 <elichai2-> sipa: but it's urs decision you can 3of8 or 4of6...
1234 2014-06-09 12:45:10 <sipa> elichai2-: presumably
1235 2014-06-09 12:45:32 <elichai2-> sipa: so it fixes that problem?
1236 2014-06-09 12:45:37 <sipa> i have no idea
1237 2014-06-09 12:45:46 ThomasV has joined
1238 2014-06-09 12:45:48 <sipa> i don't care about isrealcoin, and i'm not going to find out
1239 2014-06-09 12:46:19 <elichai2-> lol ok thx
1240 2014-06-09 12:47:05 <elichai2-> what the max size of raw multisig?
1241 2014-06-09 12:47:11 <therp> sipa: we still should do omegacoin, the coin with infinite market cap
1242 2014-06-09 12:47:46 <sipa> elichai2-: the multisig opcode supports up to 20 keys and signatures, so you can't go above that without a hardfork
1243 2014-06-09 12:47:52 <sipa> or reimplementing its logic
1244 2014-06-09 12:48:13 <elichai2-> sipa: so why you can with raw multisig only 3of3?
1245 2014-06-09 12:48:20 xenog has joined
1246 2014-06-09 12:48:21 <sipa> sheesh
1247 2014-06-09 12:48:28 <sipa> we've explained 5 times now
1248 2014-06-09 12:48:43 <sipa> there is a difference between what the network will relay and what is valid
1249 2014-06-09 12:50:18 <elichai2-> Ohhh yeah i meant the network will relay
1250 2014-06-09 12:50:42 ItSANgo has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
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1263 2014-06-09 12:57:21 <elichai2-> last question :)
1264 2014-06-09 12:57:25 Swadq has quit (Client Quit)
1265 2014-06-09 12:57:25 <elichai2-> it's 500 max or 513?
1266 2014-06-09 12:57:31 <sipa> 500
1267 2014-06-09 12:57:55 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1268 2014-06-09 12:58:00 <elichai2-> ok...
1269 2014-06-09 12:58:04 <elichai2-> and why they wrote:
1270 2014-06-09 12:58:07 <elichai2-> "That's also enough to spend a 20-of-20 // CHECKMULTISIG scriptPubKey"
1271 2014-06-09 12:58:22 <elichai2-> *"That's also enough to spend a 20-of-20"
1272 2014-06-09 12:58:28 <sipa> because it is
1273 2014-06-09 12:58:56 <sipa> it's enough for a raw multisig of 20-of-20, but there is another standardness rules that forbids anything over 3-of-3 for those
1274 2014-06-09 12:58:57 <elichai2-> ohhh they mean in vaild but not relay on network...
1275 2014-06-09 12:59:01 <sipa> no
1276 2014-06-09 12:59:06 sipa has left ()
1277 2014-06-09 12:59:28 <elichai2-> ohhh the rule forbids over 3of3 not in specific sizes?
1278 2014-06-09 13:00:12 <elichai2-> but these standrats are easy to change right?
1279 2014-06-09 13:00:16 <elichai2-> (without hard forks)
1280 2014-06-09 13:00:23 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1283 2014-06-09 13:02:37 jgarzik is now known as home_jg
1284 2014-06-09 13:03:03 ItSANgo has joined
1285 2014-06-09 13:04:39 <elichai2-> ....
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1287 2014-06-09 13:07:26 <dsnrk> elichai2-: yes. isstandard is easy to change. it doesn't apply to miners either.
1288 2014-06-09 13:07:41 sabfer has joined
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1291 2014-06-09 13:12:39 Swadq has joined
1292 2014-06-09 13:13:10 <michagogo> 15:37:34 <dsnrk> 65 bytes for uncompressed, 33 is compressed <-- plus the push byte
1293 2014-06-09 13:14:58 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1294 2014-06-09 13:15:01 <michagogo> dsnrk: well, to clarify
1295 2014-06-09 13:15:24 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1296 2014-06-09 13:15:31 <michagogo> IsStandard is a rule in Bitcoin Core
1297 2014-06-09 13:15:59 <michagogo> Anyone using Bitcoin Core without modifying the relevant parts of the code will be applying that rule
1298 2014-06-09 13:16:12 <elichai2-> ok...
1299 2014-06-09 13:16:12 <elichai2-> thx
1300 2014-06-09 13:16:18 <michagogo> But basically, it's the decision of each node
1301 2014-06-09 13:16:30 <michagogo> (Also, there's an Isracoin now? Wtf?)
1302 2014-06-09 13:16:40 <elichai2-> yeah i know....
1303 2014-06-09 13:16:45 <elichai2-> i against it too
1304 2014-06-09 13:17:02 <elichai2-> but i just had a argument with the developers of Isracoin about the premine
1305 2014-06-09 13:17:04 <michagogo> And the same applies to miners
1306 2014-06-09 13:17:07 <dsnrk> michagogo: they're running out of ideas. got to get the pump no matter what.
1307 2014-06-09 13:17:14 <elichai2-> i said it's need to be on multisig address
1308 2014-06-09 13:17:21 <elichai2-> and they said it's impossible :)
1309 2014-06-09 13:17:24 <buZz> lol
1310 2014-06-09 13:17:51 <michagogo> It's not like if a miner hears about a transaction it will include it and it's just the network that won't let it get there
1311 2014-06-09 13:18:19 maraoz has joined
1312 2014-06-09 13:18:25 <dsnrk> michagogo: not true for eligius, it's isStandard is relaxed a little
1313 2014-06-09 13:18:27 YoY has joined
1314 2014-06-09 13:18:40 banghouse has joined
1315 2014-06-09 13:19:04 <michagogo> If a miner is using unmodified Bitcoin Core and getting transactions from it, it will be using that same set of standard was rules
1316 2014-06-09 13:19:08 <michagogo> Standardness*
1317 2014-06-09 13:19:34 <michagogo> Hopefully miners will be making their own decisions on what transactions to include
1318 2014-06-09 13:19:49 <michagogo> Eligius is one good example of a miner that does that
1319 2014-06-09 13:20:01 <dsnrk> haha, how long did ghash.io use the default block size for?
1320 2014-06-09 13:20:05 <elichai2-> so a miner can just change these standards
1321 2014-06-09 13:20:21 <michagogo> I don't know about other miners, though.
1322 2014-06-09 13:20:41 <elichai2-> there is any code that creates multisig that i can use on other coins?
1323 2014-06-09 13:20:47 <elichai2-> (i need to test this thing :) )
1324 2014-06-09 13:20:47 <dsnrk> elichai2-: yep. isStard doesn't affect the validity of the block, just relaying.
1325 2014-06-09 13:20:56 <michagogo> elichai2-: a miner can decide what transactions to consider standard and automatically include in their blocks
1326 2014-06-09 13:21:26 JackH has quit (Quit: JackH)
1327 2014-06-09 13:21:41 <elichai2-> ok
1328 2014-06-09 13:22:18 <michagogo> But again, if most of the network is Bitcoin Core at a certain version, transactions that that version considers non-standard may not make it to miners who would mine it
1329 2014-06-09 13:22:54 jtimon_ has joined
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1333 2014-06-09 13:23:55 <elichai2-> if one miner accept a tx out of standard and put it into the block, other miners will accept that block?
1334 2014-06-09 13:24:09 daybyter has joined
1335 2014-06-09 13:24:41 <michagogo> dsnrk: hm, looks like it's inspired by auroracoin
1336 2014-06-09 13:24:42 <dsnrk> yes.
1337 2014-06-09 13:25:02 <dsnrk> michagogo: oh they all are. there's heaps of scamcoins with country names like that
1338 2014-06-09 13:25:16 <michagogo> elichai2-: yes. Once a transaction is in a block, only validity rules applt
1339 2014-06-09 13:25:20 <michagogo> Apply*
1340 2014-06-09 13:26:11 erasmospunk has joined
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1342 2014-06-09 13:26:22 mappum has joined
1343 2014-06-09 13:26:47 Swadq has quit (Quit: Swadq)
1344 2014-06-09 13:27:00 sipa has joined
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1346 2014-06-09 13:29:29 <dsnrk> michagogo: the thing seems to be that they're literally running out of names to use. for a while they tried to be themed "SoccerCoin is going to save soccer!!!", then colours were in (redcoin, bluecoin), then countries (asiacoin, auroracoin), then PoS/Pow (blackcoin), then PoS. now they're onto being "green" which is something called X11 that has bad optimisations on GPUs and runs a lot slower as a result. current trends also involve stupid difficulty ret
1347 2014-06-09 13:29:49 <michagogo> cap2002: have you read ,,(bc,wiki transaction)?
1348 2014-06-09 13:29:50 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions | May 21, 2014 ... A transaction is a signed section of data that is broadcast to the network and collected into blocks. It typically references previous transaction(s) ...
1349 2014-06-09 13:30:26 JackH has joined
1350 2014-06-09 13:30:38 <dsnrk> michagogo: oh and cryptonite (Bytecoin) clones are big too with it's completely moronic PoW and lack of GUI.
1351 2014-06-09 13:30:44 <michagogo> dsnrk: well, looks like auroracoin and Isracoin are designed specifically for people in Iceland and Israel
1352 2014-06-09 13:30:45 <michagogo> Apparently there's some kind of giveaway of a premine to Israelis or something
1353 2014-06-09 13:30:49 banghouse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1357 2014-06-09 13:31:49 <dsnrk> clone bitcoin.git, change the name, now it's designed for whatever country. all the "airdrop" means that they send a bunch of their previously mined coins to themselves and ride the pump to the end.
1358 2014-06-09 13:32:04 debiantoruser has joined
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1361 2014-06-09 13:37:03 <elichai2-> dsnrk: now there is X13
1362 2014-06-09 13:37:04 <elichai2-> lol
1363 2014-06-09 13:37:22 <dsnrk> yeah, it's moronic. there's absolutely no point to it.
1364 2014-06-09 13:37:35 <elichai2-> michagogo: how can i manually create multisig tx?
1365 2014-06-09 13:38:36 elatednomitor has joined
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1370 2014-06-09 13:43:37 TheSeven has joined
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1373 2014-06-09 13:46:57 altoz has joined
1374 2014-06-09 13:47:07 <elichai2-> how can i manually create multisig tx?
1375 2014-06-09 13:48:53 banghouse has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1376 2014-06-09 13:49:54 yubrew has joined
1377 2014-06-09 13:51:07 gavinandresen has joined
1378 2014-06-09 13:51:23 <elichai2-> btw, how can i find a miner that will broadcast for me unstandard tx?
1379 2014-06-09 13:53:12 ArthurNumba2 has joined
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1385 2014-06-09 13:54:31 AmThatsMe has joined
1386 2014-06-09 13:54:39 <AmThatsMe> Hi everyone !
1387 2014-06-09 13:56:28 xenog has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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1390 2014-06-09 13:58:37 <AmThatsMe> There was a commit not long ago to change the standard scriptsig size to 1650, i also noticed that the standard scriptPubKey is still limited to x-of-3 (in script.cpp IsStandard function). Why is that ?
1391 2014-06-09 13:59:05 <michagogo> ;;calc log(100000000)/log(2)
1392 2014-06-09 13:59:05 <gribble> 26.5754247591
1393 2014-06-09 13:59:45 <michagogo> AmThatsMe: raw multisig is limited to m-of-3, yes
1394 2014-06-09 13:59:48 <michagogo> Use p2sh
1395 2014-06-09 14:00:05 <michagogo> Also, that commit isn't in a release yet
1396 2014-06-09 14:00:55 <AmThatsMe> michagogo: Thanks ! thats what i thought... just wondered :)
1397 2014-06-09 14:01:41 pierreatwork has joined
1398 2014-06-09 14:02:29 banghouse has joined
1399 2014-06-09 14:03:33 <elichai2-> btw, what new in 0.9.2rc2?
1400 2014-06-09 14:03:36 <elichai2-> i need to update?
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1404 2014-06-09 14:08:58 <sipa> it's not even released yet
1405 2014-06-09 14:09:08 <sipa> if you want to help testing, feel free though!
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1411 2014-06-09 14:15:16 <cap2002> Question: Is it possible to construct a transaction with an inner transaction, that is dependent on outer transaction but doesn't wait for confirmations?
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1415 2014-06-09 14:17:33 <jcorgan> sipa: aside from compiling and running a node and verifying that it looks "normal", is there specific testing for release that would help?
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1419 2014-06-09 14:19:47 <jcorgan> i've already got it running (v0.9.2rc2) on ubuntu 12.04, 14.04, with and without Tor, all is well
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1421 2014-06-09 14:21:05 <elichai2-> sipa: i now need a miner to accept my tx :(
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1423 2014-06-09 14:21:14 <elichai2-> i got money in p2sh 6 of 10
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1428 2014-06-09 14:26:18 <maraoz> elichai2: some miners accept nonstandard txs. I don't know about exceeding scriptSig max size though. Give it a try here http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/pushtxn.php
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1431 2014-06-09 14:26:55 <elichai2-> maraoz: tried him already :(
1432 2014-06-09 14:27:05 <elichai2-> btw, this is the tx: http://pastebin.com/zWyAaiMt
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1441 2014-06-09 14:37:50 <elichai2-> tx get old sometimes?
1442 2014-06-09 14:37:51 uiop has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1443 2014-06-09 14:38:00 <elichai2-> (if i'm not pusuing them)
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1451 2014-06-09 14:45:31 <elichai2-> so next update i will be able to send multising from 6 of 10?
1452 2014-06-09 14:45:37 <elichai2-> (uncompressed...)
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1472 2014-06-09 15:11:10 <elichai2-> michagogo: what will be the max tx on 1.0?
1473 2014-06-09 15:11:22 <elichai2-> (i want to know if i could ever get my money back lol)
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1495 2014-06-09 15:44:48 <phantomcircuit> sipa, blargh bitcoind i was using to valgrind had a corrupt blocks/* directory
1496 2014-06-09 15:44:54 <phantomcircuit> useless callgraph
1497 2014-06-09 15:44:55 <phantomcircuit> :(
1498 2014-06-09 15:45:12 digitalmagus has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1499 2014-06-09 15:45:28 <phantomcircuit> btw there's a bug in the loading file that seems to read the files 1 byte at a time in certain cases
1500 2014-06-09 15:45:34 <phantomcircuit> pathological behaviour
1501 2014-06-09 15:45:41 <phantomcircuit> cant be very common though
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1504 2014-06-09 15:50:01 <jcorgan> has anyone published any analysis on the fee estimate data being collected now?  just curious if there were any surprises.
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1525 2014-06-09 16:19:11 <michagogo> elichai2-: huh? There won't be a 1.0 any time soon
1526 2014-06-09 16:21:39 <elichai2-> u did told me that next version the maximum will raise...
1527 2014-06-09 16:22:28 <elichai2-> (maximum of bytes in multisig)
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1529 2014-06-09 16:23:40 <michagogo> Once 0.10 is out, then yes, you'll be able to transmit that transaction. Or you could ask e.g. Luke if he would mine it for you.
1530 2014-06-09 16:23:48 <michagogo> elichai2-: Yes, it will
1531 2014-06-09 16:23:54 <michagogo> That next version is 0.10, not 1.0
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1536 2014-06-09 16:26:07 <elichai2-> ohhh 0.10 not 1.0
1537 2014-06-09 16:26:17 <michagogo> ...yes.
1538 2014-06-09 16:26:20 <elichai2-> Luke-Jr: here?
1539 2014-06-09 16:26:28 <elichai2-> michagogo: what would be the maximum?
1540 2014-06-09 16:26:31 rdymac has joined
1541 2014-06-09 16:26:42 <michagogo> And you were already told what the size will be
1542 2014-06-09 16:26:47 <elichai2-> (because i just figured that mine is with uncompressed pubkeys so it's bigger :( )
1543 2014-06-09 16:26:52 <michagogo> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/4d79098ad548874ca6e4c09d873fc2f481e6edb4
1544 2014-06-09 16:27:29 jordandotdev has joined
1545 2014-06-09 16:28:50 <elichai2-> ohhh ok, thx\
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1554 2014-06-09 16:38:30 <elichai2-> there is no pool owner in here the IRC?
1555 2014-06-09 16:39:36 <buZz> all bitcoin pool owners are now living on the bahamas
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1561 2014-06-09 16:42:28 <pigeons> elichai2-: try the channel for the pool you are looking for, say #eligius and also try #bitcoin-mining
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1563 2014-06-09 16:45:08 <phantomcircuit> 2014-06-09 16:45:26 UpdateTip: new best=000000000000000027f41a511c7c358bee25608c7983dbfcbf5aab11155e7f56  height=289150  log2_work=77.070657  tx=34257807  date=2014-03-06 06:42:35 progress=0.631661
1564 2014-06-09 16:45:09 <phantomcircuit> :|
1565 2014-06-09 16:45:59 <michagogo> phantomcircuit: eh?
1566 2014-06-09 16:46:11 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, takes ages
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1591 2014-06-09 17:00:25 <phantomcircuit> 2014-06-09 17:00:32 ProcessMessages(tx, 1 bytes) : Exception 'CDataStream::read() : end of data' caught, normally caused by a message being shorter than its stated length
1592 2014-06-09 17:00:25 <phantomcircuit> 2014-06-09 17:00:32 ProcessMessage(tx, 1 bytes) FAILED
1593 2014-06-09 17:00:26 <phantomcircuit> o.o
1594 2014-06-09 17:00:33 <phantomcircuit> someone is playing games with my bitcoind
1595 2014-06-09 17:00:36 * phantomcircuit looks at amiller 
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1608 2014-06-09 17:19:07 <phantomcircuit> ACTUALLY JUST LOOKS LIKE A BUGGY CLIENT
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1610 2014-06-09 17:19:09 <phantomcircuit> ER
1611 2014-06-09 17:19:12 <phantomcircuit> derp
1612 2014-06-09 17:21:02 <elichai2-> hey can anyone here help me debug a transaction?
1613 2014-06-09 17:21:16 <elichai2-> it's failing with non-mandatory-script-verify-flag
1614 2014-06-09 17:23:39 <andytoshi> what is giving you that error?
1615 2014-06-09 17:23:58 <andytoshi> can you pastebin (or 0bin preferably) the rawtx?
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1631 2014-06-09 17:38:19 <elichai2-> andytoshi: http://pastebin.com/zWyAaiMt
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1634 2014-06-09 17:40:28 <elichai2-> someone told me i need to try figure out this:
1635 2014-06-09 17:40:30 <elichai2-> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L1594
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1642 2014-06-09 17:46:13 <andytoshi> is it just me or is «flags & ~STANDARD_NOT_MANDATORY_VERIFY_FLAGS» on L1592 grammatically incorrect? it seems like it means "only mandatory flags" but the preceding comment says it means "only non-mandatory flags"
1643 2014-06-09 17:47:20 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1644 2014-06-09 17:48:11 <andytoshi> oh, i see, check() returns true for Ok, false for Error
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1646 2014-06-09 17:51:25 <andytoshi> elichai2-: the short answer is that your ecdsa sig is encoded in a weird way..how did you sign this?
1647 2014-06-09 17:53:00 [EddyF]_ has quit (Quit: coding,sleeping or doing something better than chatting to you.)
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1649 2014-06-09 17:54:26 <andytoshi> but the reason my node rejects it is scriptsig-size, i.e. your scriptsig is more than 1650 bytes
1650 2014-06-09 17:54:36 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1651 2014-06-09 17:56:50 <elichai2-> coinb.in/multisig
1652 2014-06-09 17:56:53 <elichai2-> i used this site
1653 2014-06-09 17:57:26 <andytoshi> how many signatures are you requiring?
1654 2014-06-09 17:58:00 <elichai2-> 6of10
1655 2014-06-09 17:58:41 weilu has joined
1656 2014-06-09 18:00:47 <andytoshi> oh, weird, by my count your scriptsig is only 1107 bytes in length, i'm not sure why my node is claiming that's too large
1657 2014-06-09 18:01:22 <sipa> what code, andytoshi?
1658 2014-06-09 18:01:35 <sipa> there was a scriptsig size limit of 500 bytes until 0.9.x
1659 2014-06-09 18:02:03 <andytoshi> i'm on commit a99f9be0
1660 2014-06-09 18:02:07 <andytoshi> one sec, i'll rebase and recompile
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1664 2014-06-09 18:04:07 <Luke-Jr> elichai2-: this transaction looks invalid
1665 2014-06-09 18:04:19 <Luke-Jr> the serialised script is 663 bytes
1666 2014-06-09 18:04:31 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0016.mediawiki#520byte_limitation_on_serialized_script_size
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1668 2014-06-09 18:05:49 <Luke-Jr> sadly, I don't think there's any way to redeem this
1669 2014-06-09 18:05:55 christophe has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1670 2014-06-09 18:06:15 <michagogo> Ah, ouch
1671 2014-06-09 18:06:25 <michagogo> I guess 10 uncompressed keys is too much
1672 2014-06-09 18:06:39 <Luke-Jr> too bad compressing them will change the hash
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1674 2014-06-09 18:06:56 <michagogo> Wow, good to know: always make sure you use compressed privkeys for large-n multisigs!
1675 2014-06-09 18:07:12 rnvk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1676 2014-06-09 18:07:28 <poutine> Well, what is the limit then?
1677 2014-06-09 18:07:32 <michagogo> Hm, will Bitcoin Core's createmultisig (or whatever it's called) give you an error if you give it too many uncompressed keys?
1678 2014-06-09 18:07:42 rnvk has joined
1679 2014-06-09 18:07:43 <michagogo> ;;calc 520/66
1680 2014-06-09 18:07:44 <gribble> 7.87878787879
1681 2014-06-09 18:07:46 <elichai2-> Luke-Jr: yeah, but why?
1682 2014-06-09 18:07:47 rnvk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1683 2014-06-09 18:07:47 <michagogo> poutine: 7ish?
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1685 2014-06-09 18:08:12 <michagogo> elichai2-: there's a rule in P2SH, the redeemscript can't be more than 520 bytes
1686 2014-06-09 18:08:17 <sipa> 10 compressed ones is too much too
1687 2014-06-09 18:08:36 <michagogo> And that's a validity rule, not a standardness rule
1688 2014-06-09 18:08:38 <michagogo> sipa: huh?
1689 2014-06-09 18:08:39 <sipa> at least for 0.9.x standardness rulr
1690 2014-06-09 18:08:40 rnvk has joined
1691 2014-06-09 18:08:46 <michagogo> I thought you could do 15
1692 2014-06-09 18:08:54 <sipa> in head, yes
1693 2014-06-09 18:08:56 <michagogo> sipa: no, we're talking about 520-byte redeemscript now
1694 2014-06-09 18:09:00 <sipa> oh ok
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1697 2014-06-09 18:09:24 <elichai2-> sipa: my problem it's that is uncompressed
1698 2014-06-09 18:09:34 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1699 2014-06-09 18:09:35 <Luke-Jr> elichai2-: P2SH scripts have a 520 byte limit
1700 2014-06-09 18:09:49 <elichai2-> Luke-Jr: it's hard core or standard?
1701 2014-06-09 18:09:54 <Luke-Jr> hard
1702 2014-06-09 18:10:01 jtimon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1707 2014-06-09 18:11:42 <elichai2-> Luke-Jr: so my btcs are lost?
1708 2014-06-09 18:11:48 <sipa> yes
1709 2014-06-09 18:11:59 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1710 2014-06-09 18:12:09 <sipa> if you exceed the 520 redeemscript limit, they are lost
1711 2014-06-09 18:12:34 <elichai2-> :(
1712 2014-06-09 18:12:36 rnvk___ has joined
1713 2014-06-09 18:12:38 <sipa> how much?
1714 2014-06-09 18:12:40 <elichai2-> this is the orginal script:
1715 2014-06-09 18:12:42 <elichai2-> 	sudo apt-get install build-essential
1716 2014-06-09 18:12:42 <elichai2-> 	sudo apt-get install libtool autotools-dev autoconf
1717 2014-06-09 18:12:43 <elichai2-> 	sudo apt-get install libssl-dev
1718 2014-06-09 18:12:45 <elichai2-> ops lolol
1719 2014-06-09 18:13:07 <elichai2-> address: 365pB2i2c6GwGUebv4vaeTvAC8MU8mULJA
1720 2014-06-09 18:13:07 <elichai2-> Redeem:
1721 2014-06-09 18:13:08 <elichai2-> 564104dd02c04ede7e2cc4432f07cd407afb8c9d8f16c15579dcb05af2190bd81f7515a011e001a2939ad47cbd8672028649c278a99b935c7226ccefd2ed13de67c17b41044d3ad54b37bca3b692bc374b2bc776b91000bbd17a1d9a87baacb35d3a5c4385ee2a1efb19f3b2f12f6edd22a273acf71acd7fa177fc57c49952b80af1d4ccb5410485d24656056483fadf21fb1323224df29c4fa07fbd1c571a5bfd273d71308a47992aef4f9d70feeb8073abf9e2117e0c56a8c4918e629994ae3c5c578cd6f40c41041c7a329a8c0c0e2f80d02aa718b6f0368f4
1722 2014-06-09 18:13:24 rnvk has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1723 2014-06-09 18:14:44 <elichai2-> sipa: not so much, it think about it more as an expirement :)
1724 2014-06-09 18:14:51 Belkaar has quit (Quit: quit)
1725 2014-06-09 18:15:02 <sipa> good thinking
1726 2014-06-09 18:15:16 rnvk_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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1730 2014-06-09 18:18:14 <elichai2-> lol
1731 2014-06-09 18:18:27 [nsh] has joined
1732 2014-06-09 18:18:29 <elichai2-> that's weird, why would that site give me something that won't work?!
1733 2014-06-09 18:18:38 <sipa> ask them
1734 2014-06-09 18:18:43 <sipa> maybe they didn't know
1735 2014-06-09 18:19:05 <elichai2-> so it is theoreticlly possible to create multisig 6 of 10?
1736 2014-06-09 18:19:09 <sipa> yes
1737 2014-06-09 18:19:19 <sipa> in git head it's even standard
1738 2014-06-09 18:19:29 <sipa> but only with compressed pubkeys
1739 2014-06-09 18:19:37 metacoin has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1740 2014-06-09 18:19:43 Namworld has joined
1741 2014-06-09 18:19:52 <elichai2-> ohhh i guess that is the problem...
1742 2014-06-09 18:19:54 <sipa> uncompressed will always push you over the censensus limit
1743 2014-06-09 18:20:31 tjopper has joined
1744 2014-06-09 18:20:49 <elichai2-> stuiped site...
1745 2014-06-09 18:21:03 <sipa> why did you trust the site?
1746 2014-06-09 18:21:47 kermit has joined
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1748 2014-06-09 18:23:51 santoscork has joined
1749 2014-06-09 18:25:10 <elichai2-> idk lol
1750 2014-06-09 18:25:32 <elichai2-> when i create multisig address from bitcoind i get the redeem too, right?
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1752 2014-06-09 18:27:33 <petertodd> elichai2-: 0.9.2 doesn't check redeemScript size; HEAD now does and will report an error if you try to create a P2SH multisig that can't be redeemed
1753 2014-06-09 18:27:52 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1754 2014-06-09 18:28:10 spinza has joined
1755 2014-06-09 18:28:15 <elichai2-> and 0.9.1?
1756 2014-06-09 18:28:33 licnep_ has joined
1757 2014-06-09 18:28:40 dims has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1758 2014-06-09 18:28:45 <elichai2-> (HEAD won't help me because no miner will accept this...)
1759 2014-06-09 18:29:05 dims has joined
1760 2014-06-09 18:29:32 <petertodd> elichai2-: <= 0.9.2 has that bug yes
1761 2014-06-09 18:29:35 coeus has joined
1762 2014-06-09 18:30:36 <elichai2-> petertodd: btw, i was in your lecture in Israel and i really liked it :)
1763 2014-06-09 18:30:38 <elichai2-> thx
1764 2014-06-09 18:30:49 <elichai2-> (i asked you about quantom computing)
1765 2014-06-09 18:30:52 <elichai2-> lol
1766 2014-06-09 18:30:53 <gmaxwell> the checking in head however breaks wallets that previously had a too big multisig added.
1767 2014-06-09 18:31:05 <petertodd> elichai2-: ah, thanks! glad you didn't notice I finished the slides on the way there and was 20min under time :P
1768 2014-06-09 18:31:12 coeus has quit (Client Quit)
1769 2014-06-09 18:31:13 <elichai2-> petertodd: so to compile the HEAD? or miners won't accept that?
1770 2014-06-09 18:31:22 <sipa> elichai2-: your coin is lost
1771 2014-06-09 18:31:33 <sipa> no update will fix that
1772 2014-06-09 18:31:38 <petertodd> elichai2-: basically, HEAD is safer, but your coins are lost for good - it'd take a hardfork to spend them
1773 2014-06-09 18:31:53 <elichai2-> i noticed but your answers to the questions were good too
1774 2014-06-09 18:32:06 <elichai2-> yeah, but i want to try again :)
1775 2014-06-09 18:32:09 <petertodd> elichai2-: :)
1776 2014-06-09 18:32:10 <elichai2-> forget about the coins
1777 2014-06-09 18:32:19 <petertodd> elichai2-: sure, then use HEAD for that, and use testnet this time first :)
1778 2014-06-09 18:32:25 <elichai2-> i don't really care about this 1mBTC.... lol
1779 2014-06-09 18:32:31 GM0127 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1780 2014-06-09 18:32:39 <elichai2-> what's testnet and how can i use it?
1781 2014-06-09 18:32:40 paveljanik has joined
1782 2014-06-09 18:32:48 <elichai2-> can i send something from main chain to testnet?
1783 2014-06-09 18:33:24 Zarutian has joined
1784 2014-06-09 18:33:27 <elichai2-> and miners will accept the tx i'll send?(even it's not stadrad in 0.9.1)
1785 2014-06-09 18:33:30 <andytoshi> no. (and don't buy testnet coins from anyone!)
1786 2014-06-09 18:33:37 <petertodd> elichai2-: here's an example of a 15-of-15 P2SH spent on mainnet: c2f61039d67a36936920af661c4bab9f00e0ce20e08180d7303ee9a724ad0ad2
1787 2014-06-09 18:33:52 <andytoshi> you can post a testnet address on #bitcoin and someone will send you some, or there are faucets online whose URLs i don't remember
1788 2014-06-09 18:34:08 <petertodd> elichai2-: testnet is an alternate bitcoin blockchain meant for testing, you use the -testnet flag when you start bitcoind/bitcoin-qt
1789 2014-06-09 18:34:51 <phantomcircuit> finally
1790 2014-06-09 18:35:14 <phantomcircuit> got sipa's branch running a reindex under valgrind with a complete blockchain
1791 2014-06-09 18:35:16 Application has joined
1792 2014-06-09 18:36:55 <elichai2-> stuiped irc... can you resend the txid with 15of15?
1793 2014-06-09 18:37:06 <petertodd> elichai2-: c2f61039d67a36936920af661c4bab9f00e0ce20e08180d7303ee9a724ad0ad2
1794 2014-06-09 18:38:01 dabura667 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1795 2014-06-09 18:38:59 <elichai2-> but it's from multi keys
1796 2014-06-09 18:39:18 <petertodd> ?
1797 2014-06-09 18:39:39 <elichai2-> wait, its send to the multisig address... not from!
1798 2014-06-09 18:40:18 <petertodd> oops, here's the spending tx: ec8624b42d716cc664e0aec3c03b5764b8fec494b1a567fbf8380fc302ed2f95
1799 2014-06-09 18:40:26 Belkaar has joined
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1801 2014-06-09 18:42:12 jambola2 has joined
1802 2014-06-09 18:42:19 <jambola2> Hello
1803 2014-06-09 18:42:30 <jambola2> Can somebody help me with a quick question
1804 2014-06-09 18:42:45 <jambola2> Is anyone on this chat ?
1805 2014-06-09 18:43:00 <dhill> just ask
1806 2014-06-09 18:43:02 <michagogo> jambola2: don't ask to as
1807 2014-06-09 18:43:03 <elichai2-> petertodd: how can i see that it's 15of15?
1808 2014-06-09 18:43:03 <michagogo> k
1809 2014-06-09 18:43:09 chichov has joined
1810 2014-06-09 18:43:15 <michagogo> elichai2-: by looking at the redeemscript
1811 2014-06-09 18:43:18 <elichai2-> (i tried to parse the input script and couldn't)
1812 2014-06-09 18:43:23 <jambola2> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=645860.new#new
1813 2014-06-09 18:43:30 <jambola2> How exactly does a Bitcoin patch or update occur
1814 2014-06-09 18:43:31 <chichov> hm, is it called OP_RETURN transaction type or Nulldata?
1815 2014-06-09 18:43:58 <jambola2> Since Bitcoin is decentralized , I'd guess some kind of majority vote occurs. On what basis is this chosen ?
1816 2014-06-09 18:44:16 <petertodd> elichai2-: the decodescript RPC command might help you
1817 2014-06-09 18:45:12 <petertodd> jambola2: in theory, there's no voting, in practice it's really majority rules, and whether or not it's hashing power or big economic players that matter, or both, is as yet unknown
1818 2014-06-09 18:45:35 <michagogo> Here's the decoded tx:
1819 2014-06-09 18:45:36 <elichai2-> ok... i'm in the middle of compiling bitcoin...
1820 2014-06-09 18:45:38 <michagogo> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ayDzH6B5
1821 2014-06-09 18:45:45 <jambola2> petertodd : So if half the people accept it and half don't , a split in the blockchain will occur , right ?
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1824 2014-06-09 18:46:01 <petertodd> jambola2: in particular, there's no centralized update mechanism - you choose what version of bitcoin you run (or with SPV make the choice to let the majority of hashing power decide)
1825 2014-06-09 18:46:19 <petertodd> jambola2: yup, each side thinking the other is wasting hashing power on something that isn't bitcoin
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1828 2014-06-09 18:46:41 <michagogo> Here's the script:
1829 2014-06-09 18:46:43 <michagogo> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/5vPTzw1u
1830 2014-06-09 18:46:49 <jambola2> petertodd: I was wondering in reference to this :- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=641144.msg7188321#msg7188321
1831 2014-06-09 18:48:41 <michagogo> You can see there are 15 signatures, and then the redeemScript
1832 2014-06-09 18:48:51 <michagogo> erm, a 0, then 15 sigs, then the redeemScript
1833 2014-06-09 18:49:00 <elichai2-> michagogo: how can i see that?
1834 2014-06-09 18:49:05 _biO_ has quit ()
1835 2014-06-09 18:49:09 <elichai2-> ohh every line is sign?
1836 2014-06-09 18:49:45 banghouse has joined
1837 2014-06-09 18:50:06 <michagogo> Then if you decodescript the redeemScript, you get this:
1838 2014-06-09 18:50:07 <michagogo> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/U1hN7HzE
1839 2014-06-09 18:51:03 <michagogo> You can see the script is 15 for sigs required, then 15 pubkeys (all the same in this case), then 15 again for number of keys, then checkmultisig
1840 2014-06-09 18:51:31 rdymac has joined
1841 2014-06-09 18:51:43 <elichai2-> ohhh i can just use the same one... that's smart...
1842 2014-06-09 18:51:52 <elichai2-> (so i won't need to create so much)
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1852 2014-06-09 18:58:48 <lechuga_> is there a hard limit on the # of inputs in a tx?
1853 2014-06-09 18:58:56 <lechuga_> i've notcied bc.i complains if there are more than 200
1854 2014-06-09 18:59:03 <lechuga_> but all i see is a cap on block size and max sigops
1855 2014-06-09 18:59:07 <lechuga_> in bitcoind code
1856 2014-06-09 18:59:10 maraoz has joined
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1858 2014-06-09 18:59:29 <phantomcircuit> <lechuga_> i've notcied bc.i complains if there are more than 200
1859 2014-06-09 18:59:30 <phantomcircuit> what?
1860 2014-06-09 18:59:45 <sipa> afaik there is no limit on the number of input
1861 2014-06-09 18:59:58 <sipa> at least not in the consensus rules
1862 2014-06-09 19:00:13 chainey has quit (Quit: chainey)
1863 2014-06-09 19:00:35 <lechuga_> phantomcircuit: "The Maximum number of inputs in a single transaction is 200"
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1867 2014-06-09 19:00:39 <gmaxwell> AFAIK, just the indirect ones resulting from the maximum block size.
1868 2014-06-09 19:00:40 <lechuga_> when trying to submit via them
1869 2014-06-09 19:00:47 <lechuga_> that was my understandign as well
1870 2014-06-09 19:00:48 <lechuga_> thx guys
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1872 2014-06-09 19:01:39 <phantomcircuit> lechuga_, it's probably just a rule they made up
1873 2014-06-09 19:01:50 <phantomcircuit> i would bet they get a bunch of nonsense submitted through that
1874 2014-06-09 19:02:00 <lechuga_> probably
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1893 2014-06-09 19:20:08 <midnightmagic> lechuga_: ignore bc.i, they're wrong about a pile of stuff.
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1918 2014-06-09 19:39:04 <elichai2-> how can i get coins in the testnet?
1919 2014-06-09 19:39:32 <sipa> ;;google how can i get coins in the testnet
1920 2014-06-09 19:39:33 <gribble> TP's TestNet Faucet: <https://tpfaucet.appspot.com/>; Testnet - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Testnet>; Is there any where to get free testnet Bitcoins? - Bitcoin Stack ...: <http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/17690/is-there-any-where-to-get-free-testnet-bitcoins>
1921 2014-06-09 19:40:50 <michagogo> elichai2-: there's sipa's first link, or testnet.xeno-genesis.com
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1926 2014-06-09 19:43:48 <elichai2-> ppl are minning in the testnet?
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1930 2014-06-09 19:44:36 <sipa> of course
1931 2014-06-09 19:44:52 <sipa> it's where testnet coins come from... and someone has to produce blocks
1932 2014-06-09 19:45:13 tipsfedora has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1933 2014-06-09 19:45:57 <elichai2-> yeah but why would he?
1934 2014-06-09 19:46:08 <elichai2-> is there any exchange to the testnet?
1935 2014-06-09 19:46:19 tipsfedora has joined
1936 2014-06-09 19:46:20 <elichai2-> (the miners need to get some profit)
1937 2014-06-09 19:46:20 <sipa> no
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1940 2014-06-09 19:46:27 <sipa> it's just for fun
1941 2014-06-09 19:46:30 forrestv has joined
1942 2014-06-09 19:46:36 <dhill> and testing!
1943 2014-06-09 19:46:45 <sipa> (you know... people were mining bitcoin too, before it had any exchange value)
1944 2014-06-09 19:46:54 <elichai2-> sipa: so the dificult is easy?
1945 2014-06-09 19:47:09 <sipa> well, compared to mainnet, absolutely
1946 2014-06-09 19:47:16 ThomasV has joined
1947 2014-06-09 19:47:21 <sipa> but a cpu mining will still take a long time to create a block
1948 2014-06-09 19:47:24 postpre has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1949 2014-06-09 19:48:04 <elichai2-> i just didn't understood 1 thing, why i can't just test thing on the reall chain?
1950 2014-06-09 19:48:13 home_jg is now known as jgarzik
1951 2014-06-09 19:48:14 <michagogo> elichai2-: because you're playing with real money
1952 2014-06-09 19:48:14 <sipa> because you don't want to lose money
1953 2014-06-09 19:48:34 civic03 has joined
1954 2014-06-09 19:48:38 <sipa> (i would hope that experience had taught you that!)
1955 2014-06-09 19:48:39 <elichai2-> michagogo: but that way i can get some
1956 2014-06-09 19:48:41 <michagogo> Sure, you could test on mainnet (and you actually have to if your tests involve isstandard iirc), but why spend any real money?
1957 2014-06-09 19:48:51 <sipa> ?
1958 2014-06-09 19:48:53 <elichai2-> it looks pretty hard to get some btcs in the testnet
1959 2014-06-09 19:48:54 <michagogo> elichai2-: What do you mean?
1960 2014-06-09 19:48:55 ThomasV has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1961 2014-06-09 19:49:01 <michagogo> It's not hard at all
1962 2014-06-09 19:49:04 <sipa> elichai2-: did you even try to go to any of the links we told you?
1963 2014-06-09 19:49:08 <elichai2-> i did
1964 2014-06-09 19:49:17 <elichai2-> they do give some...
1965 2014-06-09 19:49:18 <sipa> fill in an address, and the site sends you testnet coins
1966 2014-06-09 19:49:27 viajero has joined
1967 2014-06-09 19:49:28 <elichai2-> (i don't have any address yet...)
1968 2014-06-09 19:49:39 <sipa> well, your problem
1969 2014-06-09 19:49:41 <michagogo> elichai2-: uh, so create one?
1970 2014-06-09 19:49:46 <sipa> if you want to test, you'll need to run a testnet node...
1971 2014-06-09 19:49:49 <elichai2-> lol i'm working on it...
1972 2014-06-09 19:49:53 <michagogo> It's just as easy as it is with mainnet
1973 2014-06-09 19:49:53 <sipa> bitcoind -testnet
1974 2014-06-09 19:49:57 <elichai2-> my computer is too slow, so i use an remote ssh
1975 2014-06-09 19:50:06 <elichai2-> and i never used bitcoind before...
1976 2014-06-09 19:50:07 <sipa> #bitcoin please
1977 2014-06-09 19:50:11 damethos has joined
1978 2014-06-09 19:50:24 <elichai2-> yeah i know...thx
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1985 2014-06-09 19:56:48 <phantomcircuit> sipa, already upto block 152k under valgrind w/ callgrind
1986 2014-06-09 19:57:45 <phantomcircuit> only 5684 seconds
1987 2014-06-09 19:58:08 <phantomcircuit> bitcoind estimating progress at 2.37%
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1989 2014-06-09 19:58:29 <phantomcircuit> only 66 hours total runtime!
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1993 2014-06-09 20:09:36 <michagogo> I don't know if anyone cares, but I figured out why gbuild was making sudo ask me for my password despite having a NOPASSWD line in there for lxc-start
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1996 2014-06-09 20:10:13 <michagogo> Turns out, each run of sudo only uses one sudoers line
1997 2014-06-09 20:10:39 <michagogo> And it's the last one that gets applied
1998 2014-06-09 20:10:59 <michagogo> I put the NOPASSWD line near the top
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2000 2014-06-09 20:12:07 <michagogo> So the %sudo line allowing all commands was lower than the lxc-start NOPASSWD line, so it was overriding the NOPASSWD line -_-
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2022 2014-06-09 20:34:52 <michagogo> wumpus: Okay, got all deps built. Need to get up earlyish tomorrow. I'll leave my computer running doing one of the builds, and the other 2 will be tomorrow. Goodnight.
2023 2014-06-09 20:35:58 <phantomcircuit> sipa, https://i.imgur.com/zVvDFqh.png
2024 2014-06-09 20:36:05 <phantomcircuit> progress indicator seems to be more or less linear
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2041 2014-06-09 20:58:18 <fedorix> sup, can someone help me with understanding the sha256 algorythm. I understand everything else but i dont understand the padding concept, that is, what happens after my l is greater than 448
2042 2014-06-09 20:58:49 <justanotheruser> fedorix: if you don't get an answer here, you could try ##crypto
2043 2014-06-09 20:58:51 <sipa> you pad until you have a full extra block
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2048 2014-06-09 21:04:04 <IGHOR> Hi all
2049 2014-06-09 21:04:45 MolokoDeck has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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2053 2014-06-09 21:04:55 <IGHOR> All exchanges provide API with small detaild of order book
2054 2014-06-09 21:05:13 crunk-juice has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2055 2014-06-09 21:05:25 <IGHOR> would community prefer to have extra details of order book like order id, date modified and each order separate?
2056 2014-06-09 21:06:04 TheSeven has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2057 2014-06-09 21:07:38 <sipa> seems offtopic here
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2071 2014-06-09 21:12:02 <IGHOR> sipa, sorry, what room is better for my question?
2072 2014-06-09 21:15:08 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2073 2014-06-09 21:15:21 <sipa> #bitcoin-trading or something (unsure if that exists)
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2173 2014-06-09 22:54:17 <cfields> jgarzik: ping
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2182 2014-06-09 23:00:59 <jgarzik> cfields, pong
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2205 2014-06-09 23:19:50 <cfields> jgarzik: i'm looking into doing some further libification. curious if there's anything you're currently working on, to avoid duplicating work again
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2220 2014-06-09 23:26:46 <jgarzik> cfields, nothing in that area, no
2221 2014-06-09 23:27:03 <cfields> ok, thanks
2222 2014-06-09 23:27:11 <jgarzik> cfields, I had some vague plans of adding a new binary
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2224 2014-06-09 23:27:32 <cfields> rpc stuff?
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2226 2014-06-09 23:27:57 <jgarzik> cfields, A command line tool "rawtx" that takes a transaction on standard input, modifies it in one of many ways, then spits the result to standard output.  Zero interaction with bitcoind or RPC.  100% self-contained.
2227 2014-06-09 23:28:11 <jgarzik> cfields, ie. a target that exercises the need-a-lib machinery
2228 2014-06-09 23:28:33 <cfields> ok, great
2229 2014-06-09 23:28:59 <cfields> real-world uses always help in the lib-splitting discussions :)
2230 2014-06-09 23:29:07 <jgarzik> yep
2231 2014-06-09 23:29:39 <cfields> yea, i could start down that path, then
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