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  55 2014-06-12 00:39:40 <phantomcircuit> 2014-06-12 00:37:42 UpdateTip: new best=000000000000000226587205b861852a82dee7a6d2dba770a6661186742ddce3  height=281002  log2_work=75.810496  tx=31164116  date=2014-01-17 16:34:09 progress=0.435385
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  74 2014-06-12 00:59:39 <justanotheruser> phantomcircuit: why do you keep posting these?
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  76 2014-06-12 00:59:55 <justanotheruser> genuinly curious, not complaining
  77 2014-06-12 01:00:42 <phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, running a reindex under valgrind
  78 2014-06-12 01:00:50 <phantomcircuit> basically just timestamping how long it's taking
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 128 2014-06-12 01:44:00 <Luke-Jr> "Using a Mac, create a tarball for the 10.7 SDK" <-- what kind of cop-out is this <.<
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 133 2014-06-12 01:46:40 <michagogo> Yeah, I don't understand that either
 134 2014-06-12 01:47:35 <michagogo> When I did it, it was just a matter of mounting the dmg and pulling out the 10.7 SDK dir
 135 2014-06-12 01:48:04 <michagogo> If we can create dmgs on Linux, I don't understand why we can't open them
 136 2014-06-12 01:48:52 <Hasimir> because the dmg is usually using hfs+ and by default you don't get write access to that
 137 2014-06-12 01:48:59 <michagogo> Hasimir: so?
 138 2014-06-12 01:49:15 <michagogo> You don't need write access
 139 2014-06-12 01:49:17 <Hasimir> depends what you want to do with the dmg
 140 2014-06-12 01:49:27 <Hasimir> and you can override that anyway
 141 2014-06-12 01:49:27 <michagogo> It's the Xcode dmg from apple
 142 2014-06-12 01:49:38 <michagogo> You just need to extract one directory from it
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 144 2014-06-12 01:50:07 <Hasimir> yeah, I got nothing there, could just be Apple being fuckwits ...
 145 2014-06-12 01:50:26 <michagogo> No, this is our process
 146 2014-06-12 01:50:42 <Hasimir> who wrote the process?
 147 2014-06-12 01:50:56 <michagogo> cfields:
 148 2014-06-12 01:51:03 <michagogo> s/: //
 149 2014-06-12 01:51:43 <Hasimir> well, if there was a good reason for it, you know who to ask  ;)
 150 2014-06-12 01:54:01 <Hasimir> anyway, if you just need someone with a mac to do that bit for you, I'll do it
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 152 2014-06-12 01:56:29 <michagogo> Hasimir: nah, I got it
 153 2014-06-12 01:56:47 <michagogo> Notice I've already gbuilt for mac
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 155 2014-06-12 01:57:03 <Hasimir> ok
 156 2014-06-12 01:57:12 <michagogo> (Also, you shouldn't technically be redistributing it)
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 158 2014-06-12 01:57:27 <Hasimir> probably better that way than waiting on my awful net connection
 159 2014-06-12 01:57:57 <Hasimir> I've probably got it somewhere ...
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 216 2014-06-12 03:14:03 <jgarzik> blink blink.  really, we didn't check that?
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 231 2014-06-12 03:25:15 <cfields> ?
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 235 2014-06-12 03:29:00 <poutine> phantomcircuit, valgrind slows down stuff considerably, why would the timing be remotely relevant to anything?
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 338 2014-06-12 05:38:43 * jgarzik ponders replacing JSON with something very, very small: http://0bin.net/paste/AElXISFiSRDH9BOM#lBRIDi2R7J1A/U9NcJkKDTol5DPtjFxcdlASh2fjJb0=
 339 2014-06-12 05:39:11 <jgarzik> already have the implementation written for that.  about to start on JSON output.
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 367 2014-06-12 06:27:22 <Luke-Jr> -rw-r--r-- 1 luke-jr luke-jr 230K Jun 12 06:19 inputs/MacOSX10.7.sdk.tar.gz <-- is this file really that small?
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 372 2014-06-12 06:36:15 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: uh, I'm not sure
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 374 2014-06-12 06:36:19 <michagogo> I think not, though
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 376 2014-06-12 06:36:59 <michagogo> Yeah, that sounds too small to me -- how'd you get it?
 377 2014-06-12 06:37:03 <deego> Luke-Jr: file it. It colud be a text file saying "downloading.." :)
 378 2014-06-12 06:37:30 <michagogo> deego: nah, that would be a very long text file
 379 2014-06-12 06:37:30 <michagogo> And you don't download that file
 380 2014-06-12 06:37:30 <michagogo> You extract it from Xcode
 381 2014-06-12 06:37:36 <michagogo> Or rather
 382 2014-06-12 06:37:47 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: mounted the dmg and tar'd
 383 2014-06-12 06:37:51 <michagogo> You create it out of a directory extracted from Xcode
 384 2014-06-12 06:37:51 <deego> michagogo: fine, it could be a text/html.. something.
 385 2014-06-12 06:38:16 <michagogo> deego: nah, unless something's wrong it's the output of tar
 386 2014-06-12 06:38:21 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: what's in it?
 387 2014-06-12 06:38:32 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: it's 39M here
 388 2014-06-12 06:38:38 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: all the files, but 0 bytes :p
 389 2014-06-12 06:38:42 <michagogo> Yeah, 39M sounds about right
 390 2014-06-12 06:38:47 <michagogo> Heh
 391 2014-06-12 06:38:47 <Luke-Jr> ok, hm
 392 2014-06-12 06:38:56 <Luke-Jr> apple screwing around with HFS+ format I guess :/
 393 2014-06-12 06:39:03 * Luke-Jr tries hfsplusutils instead
 394 2014-06-12 06:39:16 <Luke-Jr> ironically, other files are fine
 395 2014-06-12 06:39:21 <michagogo> Ah, doing it on Linux?
 396 2014-06-12 06:40:36 <wumpus> that'd be cool, I don't think anyone yet succeeded in extracting the file on linux :/
 397 2014-06-12 06:40:37 <Luke-Jr> yes
 398 2014-06-12 06:40:49 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: :|
 399 2014-06-12 06:41:22 <wumpus> currently the 'official' way to get it is to install the right xcode version on a mac then zip up the SDK files :/
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 402 2014-06-12 06:44:24 <michagogo> wumpus: huh? No it's not
 403 2014-06-12 06:44:30 <michagogo> There's no need to install anything
 404 2014-06-12 06:44:45 <wumpus> michagogo: please, I don't want to argue for a change
 405 2014-06-12 06:45:02 <michagogo> You download the dmg from the dev website and take it from the .app in the dmg
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 407 2014-06-12 06:45:15 <michagogo> Worked perfectly (on a Mac)
 408 2014-06-12 06:45:25 <michagogo> Pretty sure that's what the instruction I followed did
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 411 2014-06-12 06:45:40 <michagogo> I don't remember being told to install it by the docs
 412 2014-06-12 06:46:41 * michagogo links himself to GitHub.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/v0.9.2rc2
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 414 2014-06-12 06:48:01 <michagogo> wumpus: Unfortunately, the usual linux tools (7zip, hpmount, loopback mount) are incapable of opening this file.
 415 2014-06-12 06:48:02 <michagogo> To create a tarball suitable for gitian input, mount the dmg in OSX, then create it with:
 416 2014-06-12 06:48:02 <michagogo>   $ tar -C /Volumes/Xcode/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/MacOSX.platform/Developer/SDKs/ -czf MacOSX10.7.sdk.tar.gz MacOSX10.7.sdk
 417 2014-06-12 06:50:47 <wumpus> ok, initially it involved installing, that's a little bit more refined, though it still needs a mac
 418 2014-06-12 06:50:52 <michagogo> wumpus: I'm curious: where did you see something about installing xkcd?
 419 2014-06-12 06:50:55 <michagogo> Xcode*
 420 2014-06-12 06:51:01 <wumpus> please stop it
 421 2014-06-12 06:51:14 <wumpus> as I said, I don't want to argue this, just use what work
 422 2014-06-12 06:51:40 <michagogo> wumpus: I'm not arguing. Just wondering where the install thing came from. And now I know.
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 425 2014-06-12 06:53:40 <Luke-Jr> guess I'm out of OSX gitian for now :/
 426 2014-06-12 06:53:42 <Luke-Jr> https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=77721
 427 2014-06-12 06:53:54 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: did you see pm?
 428 2014-06-12 06:54:05 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yes, but it defeats the purpose to use someone else's
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 432 2014-06-12 06:58:24 <wumpus> there's are also various versions of the macosx 10.7 sdk on github, but the one I've tried crapped out at qt, probably an too-old version
 433 2014-06-12 06:59:04 <Luke-Jr> I wonder if we can build it from Darwin code or smth
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 436 2014-06-12 07:01:12 <wumpus> this one may be newer though I haven't tried https://github.com/phracker/MacOSX-SDKs/tree/master/MacOSX10.7.sdk  ... it sucks that apple doesn't provide an official download/repository with just that sdk
 437 2014-06-12 07:03:39 <wumpus> having to download a gigabyte file to extract some files using a obscure ritual on a mac doesn't help grow the number of gitian builders
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 446 2014-06-12 07:14:15 <wumpus> hah, github has a way to lock pull requests now https://github.com/blog/1847-locking-conversations
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 475 2014-06-12 07:54:36 <wumpus> jgarzik: I like that idea; I was thinking in the same direction, it would allow for decoupling RPC internals from the transport mechanism used
 476 2014-06-12 07:57:18 banghouse has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 477 2014-06-12 08:00:35 <wumpus> jgarzik: and as an added bonus it would decrease compile time, no more need to include the whole boost::sprit stuff for every file that has something to do with RPC
 478 2014-06-12 08:00:38 <michagogo> wumpus: hm, are the access levels on repos all-or-nothing?
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 480 2014-06-12 08:01:03 <michagogo> It would be nice if they had something like IRC's +v
 481 2014-06-12 08:01:18 <michagogo> Looks like locking a conversation is like setting +n
 482 2014-06-12 08:01:20 <wumpus> michagogo: there are 'owners' and 'collaborators' but I have no idea if there is more
 483 2014-06-12 08:01:21 <michagogo> +m*
 484 2014-06-12 08:01:39 <michagogo> wumpus: what's the difference?
 485 2014-06-12 08:01:50 <michagogo> Is it just that the owner creates it and adds collaborators?
 486 2014-06-12 08:02:10 <michagogo> Or can those levels both be assigned
 487 2014-06-12 08:02:10 <wumpus> michagogo: well it's really meant for discussions that go badly out of hand, for example if a link was accidentally posted on rediit :p I wouldn't use it for generally restricting it to in-group conversation 
 488 2014-06-12 08:02:25 <wumpus> michagogo: yeah an owner can add collaborators I think that's the whole difference
 489 2014-06-12 08:02:51 <michagogo> It might be nice to allow people to talk without giving them push access, though
 490 2014-06-12 08:03:03 <michagogo> Hmm, or something like +mz
 491 2014-06-12 08:03:28 <michagogo> Where comments are hidden until approved
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 567 2014-06-12 09:13:56 <dsnrk> is anybody with more competence than me willing to cluestick a user in #bitcoin who is reimplementing the client on their own to run a web wallet service?
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 569 2014-06-12 09:18:45 <Naphex> dsnrk: congratulate him and wish him the best
 570 2014-06-12 09:18:55 <Naphex> maybe pass mtgox source so he can use as refference ^^
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 608 2014-06-12 10:05:17 <gdm85> any specific reason why -wallet=<file> must be in same directory? it doesn't accept a subdirectory either
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 610 2014-06-12 10:06:35 <sipa> because bdb needs an 'environment' directory
 611 2014-06-12 10:06:39 <xeroc> gdm85: use -datadir!
 612 2014-06-12 10:06:56 <sipa> and having the environment elsewhere could really make you shoot yourself in the foot
 613 2014-06-12 10:07:11 <gdm85> xeroc: already using that
 614 2014-06-12 10:07:25 <sipa> like if it's on a usb stick, the wallet file may be unusable without the corresponding host computer's env
 615 2014-06-12 10:07:46 <gdm85> sipa: is wallet.dat hard coupled to BDB?
 616 2014-06-12 10:07:54 <sipa> wallet.dat is a BDB file...
 617 2014-06-12 10:07:57 erasmospunk has joined
 618 2014-06-12 10:08:16 * gdm85 takes note
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 621 2014-06-12 10:08:40 <gdm85> ls
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 623 2014-06-12 10:09:14 <sipa> so, what we *could* do is automatically make the directory that you specify in -wallet the environment
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 625 2014-06-12 10:09:31 <sipa> but nobody bothered implementing that, as the env is determined by the datadir
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 627 2014-06-12 10:10:55 <gdm85> sipa: no, I understand. it's a BDB environment directory. the only problem I have found with this limitation is that you will need to bind-mount first data directory and then blocks/chainstate in case you want to keep wallet.dat and the blocks/chainstate on separate partitions
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 629 2014-06-12 10:11:24 <sipa> just symlink the blocks/chainstate dir
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 722 2014-06-12 11:46:14 <terve> hey folks
 723 2014-06-12 11:46:30 <terve> i am playing with listtransactions here
 724 2014-06-12 11:46:49 <terve> is there any limit on amount of transcations it can display?
 725 2014-06-12 11:47:22 <terve> and blockindex - it shows from which block transactions came from?
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 783 2014-06-12 12:42:00 <phedny> I've a question: when there are two transactions in the memory pool that try to spend the same outputs, which one will most probably be mined? the one that was received first or the one with the highest fee?
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 785 2014-06-12 12:43:39 <dsnrk> that situation can't happen, the second transaction would be rejected
 786 2014-06-12 12:44:05 <sipa> there can never be two conflicting transactions in one node's memory pool
 787 2014-06-12 12:44:24 <dsnrk> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/3f39b9d4551d729c3a2e4decd810ac6887cfaeb3/src/main.cpp#L882
 788 2014-06-12 12:44:27 <sipa> the reference client will ignore a conflicting one
 789 2014-06-12 12:44:30 <phedny> let's rephrase; will miners expunge and existing mempool tx if they receive a tx with a higher fee trying to spend the same output?
 790 2014-06-12 12:44:58 <phedny> ah, I see
 791 2014-06-12 12:45:02 <sipa> the reference client won't do that
 792 2014-06-12 12:45:05 <sipa> at least today
 793 2014-06-12 12:45:12 <sipa> but you probably shouldn't rely on that
 794 2014-06-12 12:46:00 <dsnrk> phedny: keep in mind that node all nodes will have the same mempool state. if two spends are send to different nodes at the same time they might reject different ones.
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 796 2014-06-12 12:46:12 <dsnrk> *that NOT all nodes
 797 2014-06-12 12:46:23 <phedny> dsnrk: I understand
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 799 2014-06-12 12:47:57 <phedny> what I'm working on is a monitoring system that can detect when an UTXO that's under our control is spent, but our system believes it's never signed by us, in which case it would trigger the broadcast of a preconstructed "emergency tx" that transfers funds into a cold storage
 800 2014-06-12 12:47:58 <hearn> phedny: there are people who'd like bitcoin to work that way. however it'd make bitcoin largely useless, or at least a lot harder to work with.
 801 2014-06-12 12:48:30 <hearn> phedny: that won't work reliably, at all. once the tx is out there signed by your key, it's game over. for instance the attacker could submit the tx to all major mining pools directly.
 802 2014-06-12 12:49:03 <dsnrk> not to mention, once you see the spend has happened chances are your double spend will be rejected
 803 2014-06-12 12:49:14 <sipa> hearn: i don't want bitcoin to work like that, but i think it's the only way it can work in the long term :)
 804 2014-06-12 12:50:01 <hearn> why are you working on a system that you think will end up being mostly useless, then? :)
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 806 2014-06-12 12:50:18 <hearn> it may well be that in the end, bitcoin fails as an experiment
 807 2014-06-12 12:50:25 <sipa> because i don't think it would be useless
 808 2014-06-12 12:50:28 <hearn> it's certainly looking pretty sick at the moment
 809 2014-06-12 12:50:29 <edcba> you can 'just' connect to the most node you can
 810 2014-06-12 12:50:34 <hearn> but i hope not ...
 811 2014-06-12 12:50:42 <edcba> and forward the tx faster than the other...
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 813 2014-06-12 12:51:26 <dsnrk> edcba: that has very little chance of doing anything. phedny would have been better off spending their time not getting compromised in the first place.
 814 2014-06-12 12:51:27 <edcba> you just have to pray the tx hasn't reached a large pool
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 816 2014-06-12 12:51:53 <edcba> dsnrk: unless he wants to sell that as a service
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 818 2014-06-12 12:52:10 <dsnrk> that would be a stupid service. once your key is compromised it's game over.
 819 2014-06-12 12:52:21 <dsnrk> work on compartmentalisation, work on not getting popped in the first place.
 820 2014-06-12 12:52:35 <phedny> dsnrk: correct, that's the reason for my question
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 822 2014-06-12 12:52:55 <phedny> hearn: I see what you mean, with both statements
 823 2014-06-12 12:53:09 <dsnrk> phedny: got a solid hot/cold wallet system going?
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 825 2014-06-12 12:53:31 <phedny> dsnrk: of course that's a start
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 827 2014-06-12 12:53:57 * dsnrk glances at inputs.io
 828 2014-06-12 12:53:59 <phedny> dsnrk: what I was thinking that if we're able to detect something with the hot wallet, an emergency transfer into cold storage reduces the probability of losing coins, even if it's not failsafe
 829 2014-06-12 12:54:05 <hearn> sipa: i'm not sure there's much of a market for a payment system that's very slow, and i am extra doubtful that merchants want to write special code to handle double spending. but we'll see. i see the future of bitcoin as being quite in doubt, at the moment. or at least the future of proof of work.
 830 2014-06-12 12:54:16 <sipa> hearn: i don't consider bitcoin to be a payment system
 831 2014-06-12 12:54:29 <edcba> money transfer !
 832 2014-06-12 12:54:44 <wumpus> I don't think this is the appropriate channel to discuss doubts about the future of the bitcoin
 833 2014-06-12 12:55:11 <therp> sipa: I can see the fraud proofs you explained to me in the context of side-chains being useful for regular tx as well, not just tx that move stuff to side changes. a utxo could specify in its script that within x blocks, the transaction can be rolled back by another supervising key. (or rather, the utxo would only unlock in the absence of reverse transaction). that would enable a rollback that phedny would like to see.
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 835 2014-06-12 12:55:28 <dsnrk> phedny: why do you believe somebody would only take a portion of your wallet?
 836 2014-06-12 12:55:33 <hearn> sipa: what is it then?
 837 2014-06-12 12:55:38 <wumpus> use either #bitcoin or #bitcoin-wizards or so
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 839 2014-06-12 12:55:49 <sipa> hearn: a digital currency, one that allows building payment systems on top
 840 2014-06-12 12:56:08 <phedny> dsnrk: I don't believe anyone would do that, except when for some reason he is unaware of all the utxo
 841 2014-06-12 12:56:25 <phedny> dsnrk: my question was if I can overrule his transaction by broadcasting another one (double spending) with a higher fee
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 844 2014-06-12 12:56:55 <phedny> but apparently that's not how the reference client works
 845 2014-06-12 12:57:05 <dsnrk> phedny: yep. answer today is "no" overwhelmingly. you can try to do otherwise, but it's unlikely to make any difference.
 846 2014-06-12 12:57:06 <hearn> phedny: if you could do that so could he. you end up spending the whole tx to miners fees. this is the "scorched earth" policy peter todd sometimes talks about
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 848 2014-06-12 12:57:47 <phedny> hearn: true; at least it reduces the incentive for stealing, except for miners ;)
 849 2014-06-12 12:57:54 <hearn> phedny: at that point both of you "lose" unless of course one of you manages to get the money back from a miner, but that's hard. in reality if someone stole a key that was very valuable though, he would be tempted to work with a miner or be a miner himself to ensure you never even see the theft tx until it's appeared in a block
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 851 2014-06-12 12:58:33 <hearn> yes but anyone can be a miner, especially for cold storage where the money isn't likely to move much. you'd just buy some equipment and mine: unless your electricity costs are way out of whack, you'd eventually find a block even if it takes a long time to do it. and then you win.
 852 2014-06-12 12:58:49 <phedny> I agree
 853 2014-06-12 12:58:58 <hearn> there are really only two solutions to this kind of problem: (1) make sure you don't get hacked, (2) have a social system in place to find thieves and take the money back from them, essentially, a system for repairing mistakes in the ledger.
 854 2014-06-12 12:59:10 <hearn> for example a decentralised coin tracing/marking scheme
 855 2014-06-12 12:59:18 <hearn> as we lack the latter, it all boils down to (1) today
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 858 2014-06-12 12:59:34 <phedny> or (3) be a larger miner and cause a chain reorg
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 862 2014-06-12 13:00:16 <phedny> we've been focussing mostly on (1), but today I've been thinking about what we could do in the event we do get hacked
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 864 2014-06-12 13:00:30 <epscy> cry
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 866 2014-06-12 13:01:19 <dsnrk> phedny: one option is some extreme compartmentalisation. have your wallet on a server isolated from anything else that only talks to the rest of the application via an API. the isolated server can do some of it's own sanity checks and decide if what it is being told is out of the ordinary or not. not foolproof obviously, but another barrier to someone just running off with a wallet.dat.
 867 2014-06-12 13:01:22 <hearn> well, as you probably already realised, bitcoin is a world that is _entirely_ based on defence. if you aren't perfect at defence, you will eventually lose everything. i suspect this is not sustainable in the long run. most people would fear such a world.
 868 2014-06-12 13:01:33 <hearn> but for now that's what it is
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 870 2014-06-12 13:01:52 <phedny> dsnrk: that's one thing we already do
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 873 2014-06-12 13:02:11 <dsnrk> hearn: what? our world is already like that. if I'm not at home my house relies entirely on defence.
 874 2014-06-12 13:02:15 <epscy> realtime auditing
 875 2014-06-12 13:02:47 <dsnrk> phedny: that's good. if somebody gets root on your main server can they easily find out where the wallet black box is located?
 876 2014-06-12 13:02:49 <hearn> no it doesn't, that's ridiculous. if someone breaks into your home whilst you're away, you can file a police report and they'll try and catch the burglar. they may or may not succeed, depends a lot on various factors, but there is definitely an offence-based component
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 879 2014-06-12 13:03:24 <phedny> dsnrk: at the moment they can find out IP address with netstat, but we're thinking on moving Tor in that connection
 880 2014-06-12 13:04:18 <phedny> dsnrk: however, that IP doesn't allow incoming connections, so you would need to somehow send an axploit over an already open TCP connection
 881 2014-06-12 13:04:25 <wumpus> bitcoin is not distinct from the rest of the world; if your bitcoin gets stolen you can also file a police report and (hopefully) they'lll try and catch the hacker, if the police doesn't take bitcoin seriously that's a political problem not a technical one
 882 2014-06-12 13:04:31 <dsnrk> hearn: you can't chargeback a TV or a gold necklace. it's the same with bitcoin. police report is not the point.
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 888 2014-06-12 13:05:55 <dsnrk> phedny: heh, I was going to suggest a hidden service as an extreme measure. point was more that if you can find out where the wallet server is physically you can socially engineer against it. localbitcoins had issues with that sort of thing, somebody convinced their DC to reset their server for them with no authorization.
 889 2014-06-12 13:06:04 <hearn> sure it's the point. if you are thinking of breaking into somebodies house or a shop, you have to balance the potential reward with the risk of getting caught. so most people don't break into other people's houses, even if the lock is kind of weak or the window would be easily shattered. there's a defensive component to the system, but also an offence-based component. bitcoin is basically risk-free for attackers: they can only win.
 890 2014-06-12 13:06:18 <hearn> so there is obviously a lot of incentive to try. worst case, you waste a bit of time and earn nothing. best case: huge payoff with no risk of ever getting caught.
 891 2014-06-12 13:06:31 <wumpus> hackers do get caught sometimes
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 893 2014-06-12 13:06:43 <phedny> dsnrk: when our server restarts, two authorized people need to supply a password to unlock the encrypted configuration block
 894 2014-06-12 13:07:00 <dsnrk> phedny: yeah :) that's what saved localbitcoins too.
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 897 2014-06-12 13:07:49 <hearn> yes, it does happen occasionally, though most never do of course. i saw this working on gmail, with nigeria. it's a place where law enforcement doesn't work, basically, so there's an entire industry of hackers/scammers. it's very corrosive to their society, because the young guys, they see that the scammers have all the best stuff, the best cars, the hottest women. the honest guys get dirt, in comparison. and nothing ever happens to
 898 2014-06-12 13:07:49 <hearn>  the scammers. so more and more of them give into temptation
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 900 2014-06-12 13:08:33 <wumpus> maybe the police is less effective in catching them than burglars because they've been chasing burglars for hundreds of years, and hackers only for a short while, that's always to be expected with new tech, I guess
 901 2014-06-12 13:08:41 <hearn> and of course the defence doesn't work 100%. so lots of people get scammed by them, often huge losses. very problematic.
 902 2014-06-12 13:09:35 <hearn> well, the internet is designed to be pretty anarchic. and that's OK. i don't think the regular internet is all that bad. but it must be recognised that ~all important bitcoin businesses sit behind Cloudflare or Incapsula for a reason. there's no real way to find DoS attackers, so you end up with everyone trying to live in walled gardens/castles. it's actually working against decentralisation, oddly enough.
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 904 2014-06-12 13:09:57 <wumpus> they're not 100% effective in catching burglars either, someone broke into my car a few weeks ago (with lots of damage), well it's not like they seem to be doing much
 905 2014-06-12 13:10:14 <hearn> anyway, bitcoin is what it is today. changing the balance would be a huge effort, and my gut sense is that right now there's still so much important low hanging defence fruit, it's not worth focusing on other things
 906 2014-06-12 13:10:58 <hearn> we need to get risk analysed wallets, hardware 2FA, etc, widely deployed. once that's done we'll probably hit the state of the art in money security and then ways to find attackers might become the next lowest hanging fruit. but not for a while yet.
 907 2014-06-12 13:11:38 <hearn> yes it's true, low level crime often goes unsolved, though if they keep doing it the chances of being caught goes up a lot. but you still need strong defence. the big drop in car theft came after the widespread deployment of immobilisers.
 908 2014-06-12 13:11:55 <hearn> when immobilisers get hacked, theft of that kind of car skyrockets. but those guys tend to do it repeatedly, so the risk of getting caught goes up over time.
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 912 2014-06-12 13:17:19 <wumpus> yes, I already had the idea from the beginning that if bitcoin would be succesful, it would improve the state of computer security, as there is actually something to steal now (instead of just copy)
 913 2014-06-12 13:18:16 <wumpus> not having your private keys stolen provides a very good incentive to make things more secure
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 915 2014-06-12 13:18:47 <hearn> well ..... or people won't use bitcoin. i'm not sure bitcoin is enough to turn the tide on decades of writing software to be cheap and featureful rather than secure. they might say instead, rather than paying 100x more to buy really secure software, i'd rather just sell bitcoins as soon as i get them and put them into a nice safe bank :)
 916 2014-06-12 13:19:01 <hearn> but it's hard to know how this will play out. there's clearly some equilibrium somewhere
 917 2014-06-12 13:19:33 <wumpus> *some* people will use bitcoin, like now; technology usually adds options it doesn't replace them
 918 2014-06-12 13:19:38 <hearn> yeah
 919 2014-06-12 13:19:56 <hearn> by "people" i'm abbreviating, i guess i mean "some large percentage of the average population"
 920 2014-06-12 13:20:06 <wumpus> there are still good reasons to ride a horse instead of taking a car
 921 2014-06-12 13:20:26 <hearn> anyway, there's only one way to find out what happens and that's to try it :) someone has started implementing support for married wallets in bitcoinj
 922 2014-06-12 13:20:31 <hearn> so that's a really good start.
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 924 2014-06-12 13:21:53 <wumpus> yeah social/economic change is extremely slow, I don't expect much from "some large percentage of the population" in the short run
 925 2014-06-12 13:22:23 <epscy> hearn: what's a married wallet?, multisig?
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 929 2014-06-12 13:27:20 <hearn> it's a multi-sig 2-of-3 wallet where the other key is held by a risk analysis service like bitgo. i prefer the term "married wallet" because multisig can refer to lots of very different setups, and married wallets require the permission of their significant other to spend money :)
 930 2014-06-12 13:27:30 <hearn> unless of course you divorce yourself from the risk analysis service
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 932 2014-06-12 13:28:01 <epscy> ok, so similar to greenaddress.it but 2 of 3 instead of 2 of 2?
 933 2014-06-12 13:28:05 <hearn> i wrote up design notes for it a while ago, now someone has started submitting pull requests
 934 2014-06-12 13:28:10 <hearn> yes like BitGo
 935 2014-06-12 13:28:16 <hearn> though the code written so far is agnostic
 936 2014-06-12 13:28:26 <hearn> current multisig wallet providers have to write their own wallets from scratch, which is suboptimal
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 938 2014-06-12 13:28:36 <epscy> i see
 939 2014-06-12 13:29:15 <hearn> once bitcoinj has built in support, risk analysis (RA) providers can just provide a small plugin, and then the existing wallets can all use it. so now the RA provider can focus on their security, the quality of their 2FA, the quality of their risk analysis etc instead of worrying about things like letting the user attach notes to transactions
 940 2014-06-12 13:29:20 <hearn> specialisation of effort
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 944 2014-06-12 13:31:35 <wumpus> sounds sensible
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 970 2014-06-12 13:50:04 <dgenr8> dsnrk:  "chances are your double spend will be rejected" Unfortunately it's more like 50/50 today http://bit.ly/1hR8S7s
 971 2014-06-12 13:51:25 <dsnrk> dgenr8: have you been stealing from my repo? :P
 972 2014-06-12 13:51:33 <dsnrk> that looks stupid similar to something I wrote
 973 2014-06-12 13:52:15 <dsnrk> dgenr8: jokes aside, that's very nice
 974 2014-06-12 13:52:31 <hearn> dgenr8: it'd be neat if you could link to the containing block so we can eyeball the pools doing it
 975 2014-06-12 13:52:34 <hearn> and yes very nice page
 976 2014-06-12 13:54:18 <hearn> so basically people using the new lower fee are getting double spent a lot. no surprise, given the general lethargy of mining pools
 977 2014-06-12 13:54:31 <hearn> plus dice sites because of the eligius spam filter
 978 2014-06-12 13:55:00 <dgenr8> click on tx2
 979 2014-06-12 13:55:37 <dgenr8> i don't know how to identify the pool
 980 2014-06-12 13:56:30 <hearn> you can just link to blockchain.info - their data isn't perfect by any means but it's not bad
 981 2014-06-12 13:56:45 <hearn> or here
 982 2014-06-12 13:56:45 <hearn> http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/blocklist.php
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 984 2014-06-12 13:57:39 <dgenr8> hearn: that looks nice
 985 2014-06-12 13:58:17 <dgenr8> sipa: suppose bitcoin is not a payment network.  But is being a 5-20 minute network OK?  Doesn't it need to be a 15s network?
 986 2014-06-12 13:59:02 <gavinandresen> dgenr8: in-person payments need to be just a handful of seconds
 987 2014-06-12 13:59:29 <dsnrk> as someone just caught in #bitcoin, nice reorg by ghash.io just now
 988 2014-06-12 14:00:13 <Emcy> how many blox
 989 2014-06-12 14:01:41 <dsnrk> two
 990 2014-06-12 14:02:15 <SomeoneWeird> neat
 991 2014-06-12 14:02:34 <hearn> is ghash.io putting KnCMinerB-A1 into their coinbase?
 992 2014-06-12 14:03:14 <hearn> gavinandresen: sure, you're preaching to the choir there, dgenr8 is the guy working on the double spend relay alerts for this exact reason ...
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 994 2014-06-12 14:03:48 <Emcy> DS relay is back now is it lol
 995 2014-06-12 14:03:51 <hearn> gavinandresen: i must admit the fee drop is kind of a mess. i feel bad about that. i thought miners would be faster to upgrade to 0.9 than regular users, seems it's the opposite. floating fees will hopefully resolve this, though guessing what miners would drop from their mempools is still a risky proposition
 996 2014-06-12 14:03:54 <dsnrk> hearn: no that block is 732KB, ghash.io are the default 341KB
 997 2014-06-12 14:04:05 <hearn> right
 998 2014-06-12 14:04:13 <hearn> i guess they're using the default 350kb block size
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1000 2014-06-12 14:04:27 <dsnrk> they weren't until a day ago, now they are
1001 2014-06-12 14:04:35 <hearn> oh? what were they using until yesterday?
1002 2014-06-12 14:04:39 <gavinandresen> hearn: why do you think those 0-conf double-spends are due to fee drop?  They consistent 490u fee increase looks like somebody playing with replace-by-fee
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1005 2014-06-12 14:05:14 <dsnrk> hearn: 1M I think. they've changed a few things, somewhere before a week ago they stopped tagging all of their blocks
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1007 2014-06-12 14:05:28 <gavinandresen> hearn: wait, no, I see—
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1010 2014-06-12 14:05:49 <gavinandresen> hearn: it is somebody playing with send-with-very-small-fees and then send-with-bigger-fees
1011 2014-06-12 14:05:53 <hearn> gavinandresen: actually i might be wrong. i thought old 0.8.x miners would drop 10uBTC fee txns from their mempool as being too cheap to relay.
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1013 2014-06-12 14:06:19 <hearn> gavinandresen: so the miners never "see" the original tx and do "see" the second larger tx. however the merchant who has upgraded sees both. so the double spending is possible because there's a consensus failure over what enters the mempool
1014 2014-06-12 14:06:30 <hearn> back in bitcoin 0.1 this could not happen because all transactions entered the mempool
1015 2014-06-12 14:06:47 <dgenr8> you can change &limit= to see back to 5/2/2014 or so
1016 2014-06-12 14:06:59 <hearn> gavinandresen: but i am thinking actually those txns should enter the mempool just be treated as free? perhaps they're being dropped by the free relay limiter code or something?
1017 2014-06-12 14:07:47 <hearn> dsnrk: i wish we could communicate with the pool operators more easily. i want to poll them to find out what their block policies are, but the ghash io guys seem to have been mostly anonymous until yesterday? or at least not easily found
1018 2014-06-12 14:07:55 <gavinandresen> hearn: if both priority and fee are too low they’re just dropped.
1019 2014-06-12 14:08:01 <hearn> i guess i need to talk to this jeffery smith guy. not sure how to reach him except via twitter
1020 2014-06-12 14:08:17 <hearn> gavinandresen: ah ok. that's probably what happens here then.
1021 2014-06-12 14:08:20 <gavinandresen> hearn: there is a self-organized pool operators mailing list
1022 2014-06-12 14:08:36 <Graet> ghash.io isnt on it
1023 2014-06-12 14:08:38 <hearn> gavinandresen: would you accept a patch that puts the Core version in the coinbase?
1024 2014-06-12 14:09:01 <hearn> i am not sure if it'd do anything as i guess by now most pool operators don't use the standard code to construct their coinbases at all
1025 2014-06-12 14:10:01 <dsnrk> hearn: there's a contact email in their January 2014 "we aren't evil" PDF
1026 2014-06-12 14:10:54 <gavinandresen> hearn: i’d have no objections to version-in-the-coinbase, but I’m pretty sure somebody will scream “PRIVACY!” ….
1027 2014-06-12 14:11:46 <hearn> well, we've done the equivalent before, e.g. the height in coinbase change
1028 2014-06-12 14:11:59 <hearn> given that many pools announce which blocks they solve or put their name in the coinbase anyway ...
1029 2014-06-12 14:12:38 <hearn> dsnrk: do you have a url for that pdf?
1030 2014-06-12 14:13:54 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
1031 2014-06-12 14:14:35 <dsnrk> hearn: hold on.
1032 2014-06-12 14:16:02 <gavinandresen> hearn: so I’m thinking about what big coding thing to tackle next, and two things come to mind:  rewriting the transaction relay / memory pool code to be more robust against DoS attacks (do the “relay everything until we run out of bandwidth, then start dropping stuff by some priority criteria”).
1033 2014-06-12 14:16:17 <dsnrk> hearn: https://ghash.io/ghashio_press_release.pdf
1034 2014-06-12 14:16:39 <dsnrk> (don't be confused, that was for earlier this year not recently)
1035 2014-06-12 14:16:47 <hearn> thanks! i will email them and ask if they would join the mailing list
1036 2014-06-12 14:17:10 <Emcy> gavinandresen headers only /w chain backfill for bitcoin core surely?
1037 2014-06-12 14:17:39 <gavinandresen> hearn: … or there is a set of changes to transaction signing that it feels like should be tackled. Rework what is hashed so big transactions aren’t constantly re-hashed and so SPV clients can know what fee a transaction paid.  Switch to Schnorr signatures because they’re better….
1038 2014-06-12 14:17:47 <gavinandresen> Emcy: sipa is already working on that
1039 2014-06-12 14:17:57 <Emcy> cool
1040 2014-06-12 14:18:09 <Emcy> sipa +1
1041 2014-06-12 14:20:26 <hearn> gavinandresen: i'd love to see a tx v3 with malleability fixes, value in scriptSig when hashing etc, but my gut feeling is that anti-DoS is more important. the general weakness of our current strategy results in ~every possible change turning into "but what about DoS" type discussion, plus, it'd really throw a spanner in the works if someone did a major DoS on the network. for instance, if we had a proper mempool limiter in place,
1042 2014-06-12 14:20:26 <hearn>  probably there would be fewer double spends on dgenr8's page.
1043 2014-06-12 14:20:46 <hearn> i was pondering if the mempool should become a leveldb actually, as it already has memory caching infrastructure in place.
1044 2014-06-12 14:21:06 <hearn> but either big piece would be good.
1045 2014-06-12 14:21:19 <thaReal> would it matter tho?
1046 2014-06-12 14:21:25 <thaReal> heh sorry to jump in like that
1047 2014-06-12 14:21:36 <hearn> btw it'll be a little while until i catch up with floating fees in SPV land. i'm still digesting some big coding projects myself, and lots of new contributors keep showing up and giving me code to review :)
1048 2014-06-12 14:21:38 <thaReal> i know im not on the level you guys are
1049 2014-06-12 14:22:05 <thaReal> but ive been spending a lot of time learning the code lately
1050 2014-06-12 14:22:15 <thaReal> so yah know... a little dissapointing
1051 2014-06-12 14:22:19 <thaReal> at the end of the rainbow i guess
1052 2014-06-12 14:22:34 <thaReal> but i would like to help if possible
1053 2014-06-12 14:22:46 <gavinandresen> hearn: implementing Schnorr signatures is the kind of thing somebody else is likely to get really excited about, so mempool/relay/DoS is probably what it’ll be for me.
1054 2014-06-12 14:22:59 <hearn> i know that feeling....
1055 2014-06-12 14:23:00 <wumpus> thaReal: a good way to get started is to write unit tests
1056 2014-06-12 14:23:12 <hearn> wumpus: we always say that but let's face it, that's pretty boring :)
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1058 2014-06-12 14:23:24 <thaReal> well
1059 2014-06-12 14:23:29 <thaReal> is there something specific
1060 2014-06-12 14:23:32 <hearn> wumpus: i found a mini todo list of small features worked better for bitcoinj. after i posted one, a bunch of them got done by new people
1061 2014-06-12 14:23:38 <thaReal> rather than just the general gitain build
1062 2014-06-12 14:23:45 <thaReal> hmm
1063 2014-06-12 14:23:57 <thaReal> i mean id like to work on something where i can learn too
1064 2014-06-12 14:24:06 <hearn> gavinandresen: i was thinking maybe we should create a kind of "Core News" email that people can sign up for. as a start towards improving community communications. i was surprised to discover that the operators of one major bitcoin company learn about new Core releases by following your twitter feed
1065 2014-06-12 14:24:14 <wumpus> hearn: well, it may be boring but that doesn't change the fact that writing tests is a good way to learn the code more deeply
1066 2014-06-12 14:24:31 <thaReal> ^^ i agree
1067 2014-06-12 14:24:37 <thaReal> but i would need some direction
1068 2014-06-12 14:24:42 <thaReal> i mean im self taught with coding
1069 2014-06-12 14:24:44 <hearn> thaReal: You could add a GUI alert to tell the user when it's time to do a fresh backup
1070 2014-06-12 14:24:45 <thaReal> but im an engineer
1071 2014-06-12 14:25:02 <hearn> thaReal: currently Core is not an HD wallet, so people who use it as a GUI wallet can accidentally run out of keys in the keypool without noticing.
1072 2014-06-12 14:25:04 <thaReal> hmm thats actually interesting
1073 2014-06-12 14:25:17 <thaReal> im aware of that
1074 2014-06-12 14:25:23 <gavinandresen> hearn: good idea, somebody should do that…. (I would volunteer, but I am TERRIBLE at being responsible and doing something once a month)
1075 2014-06-12 14:25:26 <thaReal> i mean ive never really had to worry about it
1076 2014-06-12 14:25:30 <thaReal> hahahah
1077 2014-06-12 14:25:36 <thaReal> i mean i wouldnt mind giving it a shot
1078 2014-06-12 14:25:37 <wumpus> hearn: "small features" sounds good but we don't have an awful lot of them
1079 2014-06-12 14:25:39 <thaReal> be gentle
1080 2014-06-12 14:25:40 <thaReal> lol
1081 2014-06-12 14:25:43 <hearn> wumpus: yeah i know :)
1082 2014-06-12 14:25:49 <thaReal> but i mean
1083 2014-06-12 14:25:51 <Belxjander> thaReal: I'm also self-taught to a degree...haven't made it beyond code monkey in the business though
1084 2014-06-12 14:26:00 <thaReal> im more concerned with soem of the bigger issues
1085 2014-06-12 14:26:07 <gavinandresen> hearn: … and I know I’m terrible and probably it would be good for me but I’m generally trying to shed responsibilities, not get new ones
1086 2014-06-12 14:26:19 <wumpus> hearn: and go 'debug and fix a github issue' usually needs deeper knowledge already
1087 2014-06-12 14:26:19 <thaReal> heh - cant blame u
1088 2014-06-12 14:26:22 <hearn> gavinandresen: don't worry, was just bouncing the idea off you, not suggesting you actually do it yourself :)
1089 2014-06-12 14:26:47 <thaReal> yeah, i agree
1090 2014-06-12 14:27:00 <thaReal>  i mean i 'attempted' to clone a coin
1091 2014-06-12 14:27:04 <hearn> gavinandresen: it's the kind of thing I bet saivann_ would do an excellent job of, with a small amount of input. and i don't mean monthly. there isn't enough important news for that. i'm thinking:    when there's a new release of Core, when there's a security event that we'd put on the website, when there's some important initiative people need to get on board with, etc
1092 2014-06-12 14:27:06 <thaReal> and actually ended up learning lol
1093 2014-06-12 14:27:10 <thaReal> so i threw it away
1094 2014-06-12 14:27:15 <thaReal> and know id like to actually do something
1095 2014-06-12 14:27:17 <hearn> gavinandresen: so probably quarterly at most
1096 2014-06-12 14:27:26 <Belxjander> gavinandresen: maybe I should rebuild the automated gentoo box I had a while back...it ran a clone of itself within a screen sessioned chroot shell...and updated everything there constantly with migrating some packages out once a week
1097 2014-06-12 14:27:30 <jcorgan> n/cl
1098 2014-06-12 14:27:42 <wumpus> I guess this one is pretty easy: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4176
1099 2014-06-12 14:27:44 <thaReal> yeah im surprised u havent taken advantage of that more
1100 2014-06-12 14:27:57 <thaReal> cant think of much off the top of my head
1101 2014-06-12 14:28:16 <thaReal> but if u let users maybe filter message tags or something of that nature
1102 2014-06-12 14:28:31 <Belxjander> gavinandresen: that sort of thing where it can notify-on-update might be useful so you just need to make sure the box is there and working whenever you randomly care?
1103 2014-06-12 14:28:36 <thaReal> you could potentially have multiple data streams for bitcoin-dev related info
1104 2014-06-12 14:28:52 <thaReal> well
1105 2014-06-12 14:28:57 <thaReal> yeah thats a good point
1106 2014-06-12 14:29:06 <thaReal> can it stay up?
1107 2014-06-12 14:29:15 <thaReal> im trying to think of another program that does something like that
1108 2014-06-12 14:29:16 <jgarzik> jgarzik@hum:~/repo/bitcoin/src$ ls -l *univalue*.o
1109 2014-06-12 14:29:16 <jgarzik> -rw-rw-r-- 1 jgarzik jgarzik 1492576 Jun 12 10:15 rawtx-univalue.o
1110 2014-06-12 14:29:16 <jgarzik> -rw-rw-r-- 1 jgarzik jgarzik  146168 Jun 12 10:23 rawtx-univalue_write.o
1111 2014-06-12 14:29:16 <jgarzik> jgarzik@hum:~/repo/bitcoin/src$ wc -l univalue*.{h,cpp}
1112 2014-06-12 14:29:16 <jgarzik>   50 univalue.h
1113 2014-06-12 14:29:16 <jgarzik>  133 univalue.cpp
1114 2014-06-12 14:29:18 <jgarzik>  139 univalue_write.cpp
1115 2014-06-12 14:29:20 <jgarzik>  322 total
1116 2014-06-12 14:29:25 <jgarzik> That's right.  JSON-spirit, eat your heart out.
1117 2014-06-12 14:29:33 <thaReal> hahaha
1118 2014-06-12 14:29:35 <wumpus> woohoo
1119 2014-06-12 14:29:42 <Belxjander> thaReal: I ran that gentoo box for 1 year unattended...and it was only 3 days latent off current gentoo at the end when I had to shutdown and relocate it
1120 2014-06-12 14:30:03 davout has quit (Quit: kthxbye)
1121 2014-06-12 14:30:10 <jgarzik> Note that JSON parsing (univalue_read.cpp) is not yet implemented.
1122 2014-06-12 14:30:12 <hearn> thaReal: maybe designing a new RPC API that doesn't have floats anywhere would be useful :)
1123 2014-06-12 14:30:29 <thaReal> heh yeah see now this is what id def love to work on
1124 2014-06-12 14:30:33 <wumpus> hearn: I had actually done that, but closed it today due to lack of interest
1125 2014-06-12 14:30:45 <thaReal> well sooner or later
1126 2014-06-12 14:31:01 <thaReal> i think the interest will grow
1127 2014-06-12 14:31:18 <thaReal> but actually so thats a good idea
1128 2014-06-12 14:31:27 <wumpus> hearn: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3759
1129 2014-06-12 14:31:29 <thaReal> specifically cause im terible with types in C++
1130 2014-06-12 14:31:30 <hearn> gavinandresen: by the way, not sure if you noticed, but there's a group working on Android based mobile 2FA, decentralised (using bitcoinj)
1131 2014-06-12 14:31:36 <thaReal> btw i hate c++ so much
1132 2014-06-12 14:31:40 <hearn> gavinandresen: so your vision of multisig devices is coming slowly real
1133 2014-06-12 14:31:51 <gavinandresen> hearn: huzzah!
1134 2014-06-12 14:31:52 <thaReal> thats sick
1135 2014-06-12 14:32:13 <hearn> wumpus: oh, i didn't even see that pull req!
1136 2014-06-12 14:32:35 <thaReal> okay actually i will definitly look into this
1137 2014-06-12 14:32:43 <thaReal> cause one of the things i had originally wanted to work on
1138 2014-06-12 14:32:50 <thaReal> heh back before i knew what i was getting into
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1140 2014-06-12 14:33:05 <thaReal> was trying to rewrite a better diff algo
1141 2014-06-12 14:33:07 <wumpus> hearn: maybe four options was overkill, but heh, that's what you get if everyone disagrees :)
1142 2014-06-12 14:33:11 <thaReal> and moreso just kind of explain it
1143 2014-06-12 14:33:30 <thaReal> and that was def one of the problems i was having being new to c
1144 2014-06-12 14:33:51 llllllllll has joined
1145 2014-06-12 14:33:57 <thaReal> was the precision not so much of the variables, but when they were passed through calculations
1146 2014-06-12 14:33:58 <gavinandresen> Speaking of working on things… I’m still looking to pay somebody to do a little python project: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/88f2f247f574fe16bd57
1147 2014-06-12 14:34:14 <gavinandresen> oops, wait… didn’t notice the comment, might already be done
1148 2014-06-12 14:34:19 <thaReal> heh damn
1149 2014-06-12 14:34:22 <thaReal> i was gonna say
1150 2014-06-12 14:34:26 <thaReal> python is way more appealing
1151 2014-06-12 14:34:27 <thaReal> lol
1152 2014-06-12 14:34:49 Vitalik_ has joined
1153 2014-06-12 14:35:32 <gavinandresen> PYTHON SUCKS!  PHP ROCKS!  EMACS RULES!  VI SUCKS!
1154 2014-06-12 14:35:35 <gavinandresen> oops, sorry…
1155 2014-06-12 14:35:57 <gavinandresen> troll-ish part of my brain couldn’t resist trying to start a holy war
1156 2014-06-12 14:36:25 <thaReal> hahaha
1157 2014-06-12 14:36:36 <thaReal> im not that hardcore linux that id be arguing u on those
1158 2014-06-12 14:36:37 <hearn> gavinandresen: btw did you add a getfees message to the p2p protocol yet? :)
1159 2014-06-12 14:36:40 <dsnrk> gavinandresen: this is low-quality bait.
1160 2014-06-12 14:36:44 <thaReal> ill agree with VI SUCKS tho
1161 2014-06-12 14:36:45 <thaReal> lol
1162 2014-06-12 14:36:54 <upb> python is truly appscale
1163 2014-06-12 14:37:21 <wumpus> HOLY WARS SUCK
1164 2014-06-12 14:38:13 <thaReal> heh
1165 2014-06-12 14:38:31 <Belxjander> pushing opinionated crap as "everyone knows .." is an automated marker of "the following is bullshit" after translation for me :)
1166 2014-06-12 14:38:49 Vitalik__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1167 2014-06-12 14:39:01 <Belxjander> gavinandresen: you managed to trigger my "bullshit meter" with an "oh... idiocracy alert"
1168 2014-06-12 14:40:06 damethos has joined
1169 2014-06-12 14:40:30 <hearn> gavinandresen: the other thing we'll need to tackle after SPV floating fees is the BIP70 fees upgrade.
1170 2014-06-12 14:40:32 <Belxjander> upd: what do you mean "python is truly appscale" ?
1171 2014-06-12 14:40:45 damethos has quit (Client Quit)
1172 2014-06-12 14:40:47 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1173 2014-06-12 14:41:03 <thaReal> did i miss somethign here?
1174 2014-06-12 14:41:08 <thaReal> well i guess yes clearly
1175 2014-06-12 14:41:29 <wumpus> python is truly snake scale
1176 2014-06-12 14:41:38 <thaReal> hmm
1177 2014-06-12 14:41:44 <thaReal> i think i know why ur saying that
1178 2014-06-12 14:42:06 <thaReal> so ty
1179 2014-06-12 14:42:14 <gavinandresen> hearn: speaking of BIP70, would you be willing to take over as BIP70 Champion (aka Author) ?
1180 2014-06-12 14:42:28 <thaReal> heh is that the big one?
1181 2014-06-12 14:42:38 <hearn> ooh more work .... goodie :)
1182 2014-06-12 14:42:44 benrcole1 has joined
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1184 2014-06-12 14:42:50 <dsnrk> thaReal: payment protocol.
1185 2014-06-12 14:42:55 <thaReal> ooo
1186 2014-06-12 14:42:55 <gavinandresen> hearn: like I said, I’m trying to shed responsibilities :)
1187 2014-06-12 14:42:59 <thaReal> yeah i just looked now
1188 2014-06-12 14:43:09 <hearn> well, how about we put my name down AND yours, and i'll start taking part in maintaining it more.
1189 2014-06-12 14:43:16 <gavinandresen> hearn: done deal.
1190 2014-06-12 14:44:02 <hearn> alright. i already have a fully committed next week or two, but i'll try and do a pull req after that to take it out of draft standard, merge in my suggested changes from the mailing list a month or two ago, and try to put nick dorier's test cases somewhere useful (if they  pass bitcoinj too)
1191 2014-06-12 14:44:33 <gavinandresen> I’ll move it from Draft to Final status, too
1192 2014-06-12 14:44:35 <dsnrk> thaReal: BIPs you'll hear about a lot are 32, 39, 50 and 70. 50 is special because it's an adjective and verb as well as a noun.
1193 2014-06-12 14:44:44 <thaReal> oh hey guys, wheres the mailing list
1194 2014-06-12 14:44:47 <thaReal> heh
1195 2014-06-12 14:45:05 <thaReal> well done
1196 2014-06-12 14:45:07 bmcgee has joined
1197 2014-06-12 14:45:09 <thaReal> nice name
1198 2014-06-12 14:45:18 <hearn> thanks
1199 2014-06-12 14:45:47 <thaReal> heh
1200 2014-06-12 14:46:06 <thaReal> hey how can i get added to the dev mailing list?
1201 2014-06-12 14:46:17 <thaReal> now that i actually have a little bit of experience
1202 2014-06-12 14:46:23 <dsnrk> thaReal: do it yourself. https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
1203 2014-06-12 14:46:31 <thaReal> awesome
1204 2014-06-12 14:46:32 <thaReal> thx
1205 2014-06-12 14:47:31 JackH has joined
1206 2014-06-12 14:49:35 <Emcy> >mfw bitcoin-development 2000 unread
1207 2014-06-12 14:51:56 darkee has joined
1208 2014-06-12 14:54:19 <hearn> gavinandresen: re: schnorr signatures being cool/exciting, you might want to write up how you imagine that working and some basic design notes then send it to bitcoin-development. i've found that posting clear design docs encourages contributions very effectively. otherwise most people will simply not realise that there's a cool project hanging around waiting to be done
1209 2014-06-12 14:54:51 <thaReal> ^^ that sounds like a real good idea
1210 2014-06-12 14:54:58 <thaReal> i have to imagine there are others like me
1211 2014-06-12 14:55:05 <thaReal> that would contribute
1212 2014-06-12 14:55:11 <thaReal> if there was a little more direction
1213 2014-06-12 14:55:35 <thaReal> maybe after the fix announcements..
1214 2014-06-12 14:55:44 <gavinandresen> thaReal: our bottleneck is not new contributions it is code review and testing of the contributions we already have
1215 2014-06-12 14:55:58 <gavinandresen> … so encouraging more contributions is not helpful.
1216 2014-06-12 14:56:04 <thaReal> well i mean
1217 2014-06-12 14:56:11 <thaReal> thats a contribution
1218 2014-06-12 14:56:21 <thaReal> like im definitley gonig to try
1219 2014-06-12 14:56:27 <thaReal> i cant promise u anything will come of it
1220 2014-06-12 14:56:33 <thaReal> but hey, it cant hurt
1221 2014-06-12 14:56:36 <thaReal> so let me ask you this
1222 2014-06-12 14:56:51 <thaReal> is there any particular area in general that you think needs the most improvmetn
1223 2014-06-12 14:56:57 <gavinandresen> that’s what I’m saying: lousy contributions that require lots of discussion and review and back-and-forth actually DO hurt
1224 2014-06-12 14:56:59 <thaReal> i could venture a few guesses...
1225 2014-06-12 14:57:10 tjopper has joined
1226 2014-06-12 14:57:29 <thaReal> hmm - but i mean not a test right?
1227 2014-06-12 14:57:54 <thaReal> like how bad can i screw up a test i guess lol?
1228 2014-06-12 14:58:12 <gavinandresen> more unit or regression tests are always welcome, and require very little review— so that’s awesome
1229 2014-06-12 14:58:15 <thaReal> or i assume u mean general commits
1230 2014-06-12 14:58:24 <thaReal> hmm ok
1231 2014-06-12 14:58:33 <thaReal> i was interested in doing some of the regression tests
1232 2014-06-12 14:58:37 Subo1977 has joined
1233 2014-06-12 14:58:46 <thaReal> so ill get started playing with that
1234 2014-06-12 14:58:49 <thaReal> n see what comes of it
1235 2014-06-12 14:58:54 <thaReal> thanks for the help
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1246 2014-06-12 15:08:32 ryantw has joined
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1248 2014-06-12 15:08:47 <ryantw> hi.
1249 2014-06-12 15:09:10 <ryantw> can someone help me with a minor patch for rpcrawtransaction.cpp ?
1250 2014-06-12 15:09:32 <ryantw> i am trying to output the blocknumber and blocktime in TxToJSON
1251 2014-06-12 15:10:26 <ryantw> totally stuck
1252 2014-06-12 15:11:51 c0dified has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1253 2014-06-12 15:13:40 Blackreign has joined
1254 2014-06-12 15:13:57 <gavinandresen> ryantw: what are you trying to do?  TxToJSON doesn’t include that information because it might not be known (transaction is not yet in a block, transaction was included in several blocks, perhaps none of which are on the longest chain....)
1255 2014-06-12 15:14:12 <ryantw> hi
1256 2014-06-12 15:14:13 cbeams has joined
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1258 2014-06-12 15:14:13 cbeams has joined
1259 2014-06-12 15:14:29 <ryantw> i have a patch for 0.8.2 that outputs all transactions to json
1260 2014-06-12 15:14:40 <ryantw> i am importing the json to a DB for large queries
1261 2014-06-12 15:14:52 <ryantw> 12GB table using the json
1262 2014-06-12 15:15:10 <ryantw> the patch separates blocks from tx's
1263 2014-06-12 15:15:32 <gavinandresen> ryantw : so you’re iterating through all blocks, getting txids, then calling getrawtransaction?
1264 2014-06-12 15:15:35 <ryantw> so the tx json contains all blockchain transactions, however, I would like to include the blocknumber and blocktime with the tx json
1265 2014-06-12 15:15:46 c0dified has joined
1266 2014-06-12 15:15:57 <ryantw> yes i believe that is what the patch is doing
1267 2014-06-12 15:16:13 <ryantw> it is outputting all transactions to a single json
1268 2014-06-12 15:16:26 <ryantw> i am importing that json to a single DB query
1269 2014-06-12 15:16:32 <ryantw> table
1270 2014-06-12 15:16:34 <ryantw> to query
1271 2014-06-12 15:16:54 <ryantw> but it would be great if I could also include the blocknumber and blocktime with the transactions json.
1272 2014-06-12 15:17:05 <gavinandresen> okey dokey.  Have fun… that’s not a RPC extension we’d accept into core.
1273 2014-06-12 15:17:17 <ryantw> i know
1274 2014-06-12 15:17:25 <ryantw> was just wondering if someone could possibly help
1275 2014-06-12 15:17:35 <ryantw> i have been going crazy for days trying to figure it out
1276 2014-06-12 15:17:50 <thaReal> hey i might be able to
1277 2014-06-12 15:17:58 <thaReal> wait i need to read through all those messages
1278 2014-06-12 15:18:01 <thaReal> just sat down
1279 2014-06-12 15:18:14 <thaReal> ooo - you want it to be built directly in..
1280 2014-06-12 15:18:27 <ryantw> this is the patch i received courtesy of blockr.io
1281 2014-06-12 15:18:28 <ryantw> http://pastebin.com/RcTV7R6E
1282 2014-06-12 15:18:32 <thaReal> yeah no, heh - i think a bash script is the way to go
1283 2014-06-12 15:19:02 <wumpus> looking at TxToJSON in master it already adds blockhash, confirmations, time and blocktime *if available*
1284 2014-06-12 15:20:03 <ryantw> wumpus: is that with 0.8.2?
1285 2014-06-12 15:20:19 <wumpus> no, read my comment again "looking at TxToJSON in master"
1286 2014-06-12 15:20:20 <ryantw> i had to use 0.8.2 in order for the patch to work
1287 2014-06-12 15:20:35 <ryantw> i see
1288 2014-06-12 15:20:47 <wumpus> maybe you can backport it, or forward port the other stuff
1289 2014-06-12 15:21:29 <ryantw> yea i might have to do that
1290 2014-06-12 15:21:48 <ryantw> i am creating a cool project using BigQuery that will include the entire blockchain for querying
1291 2014-06-12 15:21:54 <ryantw> so i wanted to include the blockchain
1292 2014-06-12 15:22:08 <ryantw> because i am a big fan of bitcoin
1293 2014-06-12 15:22:34 <ryantw> so someone could query all tx's/blocks using bigquery syntax for whatever reason they would want to
1294 2014-06-12 15:23:19 t7 has quit (Quit: home)
1295 2014-06-12 15:23:23 <ryantw> i already imported all txs and blocks, except there is no way to know which blocks the tx's came from
1296 2014-06-12 15:23:29 <ryantw> with my current jso
1297 2014-06-12 15:23:40 <ryantw> sorry for cluttering your chatroom with this
1298 2014-06-12 15:24:47 <epscy> does anyone know if we are likely to get an (optional) address index?
1299 2014-06-12 15:24:56 <epscy> or if it has already been added?
1300 2014-06-12 15:25:44 <hearn_> it has not been added in Bitcoin Core, though possibly maaku's work does this (don't recall)
1301 2014-06-12 15:26:14 <gavinandresen> sipa had an address index patch that he doesn’t like (encourages bad behavior, like re-using addresses)
1302 2014-06-12 15:26:23 <wumpus> epscy: extremely unlikely; an output-based index on the UTXO set may be added though
1303 2014-06-12 15:26:35 <thaReal> ha
1304 2014-06-12 15:26:54 Malakai33 has joined
1305 2014-06-12 15:27:14 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1306 2014-06-12 15:27:20 <wumpus> epscy: but indexing the whole block chain is outside bitcoin core's responsibilities, other projects exist for that like insight
1307 2014-06-12 15:28:22 <hearn_> bitcoinj has code to calculate a postgres db address index as well
1308 2014-06-12 15:28:35 <epscy> ok fair enough
1309 2014-06-12 15:28:59 cornfeedhobo has quit (Quit: When I leave, come together like butt cheeks)
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1311 2014-06-12 15:29:31 cornfeedhobo has joined
1312 2014-06-12 15:30:52 <jgarzik> https://github.com/jgarzik/bitcoin/blob/rawtx/src/univalue.h
1313 2014-06-12 15:30:52 <jgarzik> https://github.com/jgarzik/bitcoin/blob/rawtx/src/univalue.cpp
1314 2014-06-12 15:30:52 <jgarzik> https://github.com/jgarzik/bitcoin/blob/rawtx/src/univalue_write.cpp
1315 2014-06-12 15:31:16 <jgarzik> I found a tiny and usable JSON parser (< 100 LOC) that should work with this class, permitting total elimination of JSON-spirit.
1316 2014-06-12 15:31:19 lorenzoasr has joined
1317 2014-06-12 15:31:39 <jgarzik> the main question for that reader is license, but hopefully I can get that sorted
1318 2014-06-12 15:31:42 da2ce7 has joined
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1321 2014-06-12 15:33:30 <jgarzik> JSON output is readable, though that indentation is mildly buggy.  As always, coding the "make it pretty" stuff takes more time than the correctness portion of the code.
1322 2014-06-12 15:33:37 saivann__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1323 2014-06-12 15:34:04 mpmcsweeney has joined
1324 2014-06-12 15:34:10 <lorenzoasr> jgarzik: hello
1325 2014-06-12 15:34:15 saivann_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1326 2014-06-12 15:35:05 <thaReal> hey i have to say that i didnt really 'understand' until recently starting to learn the code on my own and when i figured that out
1327 2014-06-12 15:35:12 <thaReal> well i have to say its fucking impressive
1328 2014-06-12 15:35:12 <thaReal> lol
1329 2014-06-12 15:35:20 <phantomcircuit> 2014-06-12 15:34:59 UpdateTip: new best=000000000000000034018de6d016b52ba3adbcec2be8d07f2c8da2c308f49f31  height=281947  log2_work=75.960567  tx=31487835  date=2014-01-23 00:30:47 progress=0.455130
1330 2014-06-12 15:35:23 <phantomcircuit> ha
1331 2014-06-12 15:35:26 <phantomcircuit> ok maybe this is going to take > 70 hours
1332 2014-06-12 15:35:29 <thaReal> i guess from a non-coder perspective
1333 2014-06-12 15:35:51 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1334 2014-06-12 15:37:16 <justanotheruser> phantomcircuit: anything interesting from the valgrind?
1335 2014-06-12 15:38:46 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1336 2014-06-12 15:39:20 saivann has joined
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1338 2014-06-12 15:39:50 <phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, not yet
1339 2014-06-12 15:39:56 <phantomcircuit> actually forget it im going to kill it now
1340 2014-06-12 15:40:11 <phantomcircuit> lock 281k is high enough
1341 2014-06-12 15:40:29 rdymac has joined
1342 2014-06-12 15:43:11 <lorenzoasr> Hello, does anyone know about "addredeemscript" command via RPC ? I find this "patch" of petertodd.  https://gitorious.org/bitcoin/luke-jr-bitcoin/commit/c42c9e2af57594c89cf98cd95230f322ef0ee07b .I would to know if i have simply to apply this change on bitcoind 0.9 and recompile it to make it works
1343 2014-06-12 15:43:50 weilu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1344 2014-06-12 15:43:57 Starduster_ has joined
1345 2014-06-12 15:44:23 <phantomcircuit> not surprisingly 45% of cpu time was spent in ECDSA_verify
1346 2014-06-12 15:44:47 <phantomcircuit> hmm
1347 2014-06-12 15:45:12 <phantomcircuit> 15% was spent doing sha256
1348 2014-06-12 15:45:23 <thaReal> lol
1349 2014-06-12 15:46:08 <phantomcircuit> CTransaction::UpdateHash is 58% of that
1350 2014-06-12 15:46:45 benrcole has joined
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1354 2014-06-12 15:47:33 benrcole1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1355 2014-06-12 15:48:22 sahlhoff has joined
1356 2014-06-12 15:48:23 <phantomcircuit> http://198.27.67.106/callgrind.out.24457
1357 2014-06-12 15:48:59 Adrao has joined
1358 2014-06-12 15:51:38 c0dified has joined
1359 2014-06-12 15:52:01 <jgarzik> lorenzoasr, hello
1360 2014-06-12 15:52:13 <hearn_> phantomcircuit: there's a pull req to reduce redundant hashing, i think
1361 2014-06-12 15:52:20 <hearn_> txns get rehashed over and over again pointlessly
1362 2014-06-12 15:52:25 thaReal has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1363 2014-06-12 15:52:36 <phantomcircuit> hearn_, that's what im testing
1364 2014-06-12 15:52:47 robonerd has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1365 2014-06-12 15:52:53 <gmaxwell> hearn_: phantomcircuit's been working on that, his profiling is what resulted in it. :)
1366 2014-06-12 15:53:13 <phantomcircuit> seems like there is still redundant hashing with blocks
1367 2014-06-12 15:53:22 <jgarzik> lorenzoasr, give it a try and see...
1368 2014-06-12 15:54:43 robonerd has joined
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1370 2014-06-12 15:55:10 abossard has quit (Quit: abossard)
1371 2014-06-12 15:55:18 hearn has joined
1372 2014-06-12 15:55:23 <hearn> ah ha
1373 2014-06-12 15:55:51 * jgarzik wants all C++ templates to just die
1374 2014-06-12 15:55:54 thaReal has joined
1375 2014-06-12 15:56:06 <jgarzik> ban templates from the build at compiler level
1376 2014-06-12 15:57:28 nshsome has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1377 2014-06-12 15:57:58 weilu has joined
1378 2014-06-12 15:58:03 <wumpus> c++ becomes a lot less powerful language without templates
1379 2014-06-12 15:58:48 mihar has joined
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1381 2014-06-12 15:59:18 pierreatwork has joined
1382 2014-06-12 15:59:28 <Naphex> ~3~u-
1383 2014-06-12 15:59:37 <wumpus> that doesn't mean they should be used for everything, but they are a powerful tool, just imagine the c++ standard library without them
1384 2014-06-12 15:59:46 <Naphex> b\
1385 2014-06-12 15:59:47 <Naphex> \
1386 2014-06-12 16:00:58 reipr has joined
1387 2014-06-12 16:01:10 <phantomcircuit> https://i.imgur.com/79v5If4.jpg
1388 2014-06-12 16:01:18 <phantomcircuit> loverly visualization
1389 2014-06-12 16:01:30 Grouver has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1390 2014-06-12 16:02:15 <thaReal> wow that is pretty cool
1391 2014-06-12 16:02:54 <wumpus> seems like BN_mul_mont and sha256_block_data_order are the heavy hitters, everything else is peanuts in comparison
1392 2014-06-12 16:03:06 <gdm85> is it possible to take a snapshot of chainstate while it's being used by bitcoind? It's not AFAIU
1393 2014-06-12 16:03:26 <wumpus> gdm85: no
1394 2014-06-12 16:04:12 Naphex has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1395 2014-06-12 16:04:19 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, yup
1396 2014-06-12 16:04:31 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: is that a profile of a few blocks near the tip?  The EC parts are less exciting to profile at the moment, since sipa's code already makes those a bunch faster.
1397 2014-06-12 16:04:54 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it's upto block ~281k
1398 2014-06-12 16:05:22 <phantomcircuit> wanted to get a more complete profile
1399 2014-06-12 16:05:34 <phantomcircuit> but i wasn't going to wait another 4 days for it to finish
1400 2014-06-12 16:06:31 <lorenzoasr> jgarzik, i'll try it :)
1401 2014-06-12 16:06:36 <wumpus> the picture looks very similar to when I tried with only a few blocks, it's good to confirm that
1402 2014-06-12 16:07:16 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, it looks very different depending on which blocks you're profiling
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1407 2014-06-12 16:08:41 <wumpus> the relative amount of time spent in sha256 should go down with #4309 merged
1408 2014-06-12 16:10:02 <phantomcircuit> that's what im working on
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1410 2014-06-12 16:10:21 <wumpus> and EC should be faster with #4312 merged
1411 2014-06-12 16:10:59 SD__ has joined
1412 2014-06-12 16:11:05 <phantomcircuit> that's libsecp256k1?
1413 2014-06-12 16:11:29 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1414 2014-06-12 16:12:03 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1415 2014-06-12 16:12:28 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, work not done is easier than working faster :P
1416 2014-06-12 16:13:40 <thaReal> heh work smarter not harder ;)
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1421 2014-06-12 16:15:12 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: numbers on how much sha256 is still redundant where, also numbers on how much sha256 is inside the hash trees would be useful... (the latter to determine when it would make sense to add a SIMD hash tree function)
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1428 2014-06-12 16:17:32 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, ~5% of cpu time upto block 50k is spent in BuildMerkleTree, nearly 100% of which is sha256
1429 2014-06-12 16:17:49 <phantomcircuit> i dont think that's worth it
1430 2014-06-12 16:18:07 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1431 2014-06-12 16:18:11 <gmaxwell> well there are almost no transactions in those blocks.
1432 2014-06-12 16:18:28 <phantomcircuit> oh wait actually no im looking at the 281k block one
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1434 2014-06-12 16:18:53 <gmaxwell> ah, well indeed 5% isn't so exciting, even once imaginging the ecdsa at 6x faster.
1435 2014-06-12 16:19:12 <phantomcircuit> yeah the 50k one is 0.16%
1436 2014-06-12 16:19:30 <phantomcircuit> not interesting at all :P
1437 2014-06-12 16:20:04 yubrew has joined
1438 2014-06-12 16:20:08 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the callgrind output http://198.27.67.106/callgrind.out.24457
1439 2014-06-12 16:20:19 <phantomcircuit> im using kcachegrind to explore it
1440 2014-06-12 16:20:22 <phantomcircuit> seems like the best tool
1441 2014-06-12 16:21:00 <phantomcircuit> It seems like
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1443 2014-06-12 16:21:42 <phantomcircuit> AcceptBlock/ProcessBlock present an opportunity for a CMutableBlock
1444 2014-06-12 16:21:52 <gmaxwell> yea, the visualizations are nice, though the cachegrind stats are fairly approximate.
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1450 2014-06-12 16:23:29 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i believe that callgrind is fairly accurate
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1459 2014-06-12 16:25:43 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it's a mixed bag. Valgrind is a virtual machine so the counts reflect every instruction.  But it miscosts many things, effectively ignoring pipeline stalls, complex cache effects, multi-cycle operations, etc.
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1461 2014-06-12 16:26:31 <gmaxwell> It's great for gauging algorithmic impacts— stuff like lots of cpu is being wasted on sha256. But once you get down into couple-percent comparisons it can be inaccurate.
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1465 2014-06-12 16:29:03 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah
1466 2014-06-12 16:29:09 <wumpus> yes CMutableBlock I've also thought about, we regard blocks as immutable almost everywhere
1467 2014-06-12 16:29:31 <phantomcircuit> the only way to get sane numbers at that point is to instrument the code with something like gprof/-pg
1468 2014-06-12 16:29:49 <phantomcircuit> and you're still messing with cache
1469 2014-06-12 16:29:58 <wumpus> whoa CBlockHeader::GetHash() is crazy, return Hash(BEGIN(nVersion), END(nNonce)); , relies on the packing, ordering as well as exact binary representation of the fields
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1471 2014-06-12 16:31:05 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, yesh
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1473 2014-06-12 16:31:22 <phantomcircuit> this is why bitcoin core doesn't work on big endian systems
1474 2014-06-12 16:31:22 <phantomcircuit> like
1475 2014-06-12 16:31:24 <phantomcircuit> at all
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1484 2014-06-12 16:41:51 <wumpus> well with things like this I'm not only worried about big endian systems, but also other compilers, luckily wrong block hashes will quickly show in the tests
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1487 2014-06-12 16:47:24 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, strictly true, it does not work on big endian
1488 2014-06-12 16:47:45 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, it would not take much work to clean it up.  I looked at the task, a year or so ago, when making picocoin endian-clean.
1489 2014-06-12 16:47:58 <jgarzik> a few uglies, but not too many.  a lot can be buried in serialization.
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1496 2014-06-12 16:57:35 <maaku> epscy: there is an address index pull request on github that works but will never be merged
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1604 2014-06-12 18:46:25 <Tykling> what is the difference between "time" and "timereceived" in the output of "bitcoin-cli gettransaction" ?
1605 2014-06-12 18:46:35 <Tykling> is it for if the client was offline / closed at the time of the transaction ? so one shows when the transaction was made, the other one when my client received it ?
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1661 2014-06-12 19:29:41 <jcorgan> epscy: look at PR #3652 for what you want.  I'm okay with it not getting merged, but I've been maintaining it fresh for my own purposes
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1663 2014-06-12 19:34:31 <jgarzik> Holy fscking shite.  My JSON parser worked on the first try.
1664 2014-06-12 19:35:05 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: does it reduce the memory usage by 100mbytes? :P
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1668 2014-06-12 19:37:32 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, hah
1669 2014-06-12 19:37:50 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, it's a simple, non-recursive parser with a vector of pointers for state.  very lightweight.
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1671 2014-06-12 19:38:35 <jgarzik> jgarzik@hum:~/repo/bitcoin/src$ size rawtx-univalue*.o
1672 2014-06-12 19:38:36 <jgarzik>    text	   data	    bss	    dec	    hex	filename
1673 2014-06-12 19:38:36 <jgarzik>   39393	      8	      0	  39401	   99e9	rawtx-univalue.o
1674 2014-06-12 19:38:36 <jgarzik>   47416	      8	      0	  47424	   b940	rawtx-univalue_read.o
1675 2014-06-12 19:38:36 <jgarzik>    4496	     16	   2081	   6593	   19c1	rawtx-univalue_write.o
1676 2014-06-12 19:38:36 <jgarzik> jgarzik@hum:~/repo/bitcoin/src$ wc -l univalue*.{h,cpp}
1677 2014-06-12 19:38:38 <jgarzik>    79 univalue.h
1678 2014-06-12 19:38:40 <jgarzik>   133 univalue.cpp
1679 2014-06-12 19:38:42 <jgarzik>   253 univalue_read.cpp
1680 2014-06-12 19:38:44 <jgarzik>   145 univalue_write.cpp
1681 2014-06-12 19:38:46 <jgarzik>   610 total
1682 2014-06-12 19:39:26 <jgarzik> For comparison, we copy the JSON-spirit template stuff into every file, e.g.
1683 2014-06-12 19:39:28 <jgarzik> jgarzik@hum:~/repo/bitcoin/src$ size *rpcblock*.o
1684 2014-06-12 19:39:29 <jgarzik>    text	   data	    bss	    dec	    hex	filename
1685 2014-06-12 19:39:29 <jgarzik>  112403	   2896	    375	 115674	  1c3da	libbitcoin_server_a-rpcblockchain.o
1686 2014-06-12 19:40:10 <jgarzik> UniValue is also nicely RAII, so no worrying about pointers or refcounts.
1687 2014-06-12 19:40:28 <jgarzik> (well json-spirit was RAII too... but at a large cost)
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1690 2014-06-12 19:42:37 <gmaxwell> yea, thats why I asked if it was 100mb smaller. :)
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1697 2014-06-12 19:50:00 <jgarzik> And it just so happens I have a JSON test suite at hand...
1698 2014-06-12 19:50:12 <jgarzik> with pass & fail tests
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1824 2014-06-12 22:13:26 <gdm85> is there a testnet version of this? https://blockexplorer.com/q/getblockcount
1825 2014-06-12 22:13:51 <sipa> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/q/getblockcount
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1833 2014-06-12 22:21:32 <Jouke> gdm85: we also have our own, also for regtest ;)
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1867 2014-06-12 22:50:11 <gdm85> Jouke: good :) we might end up using both for reference during reindexing
1868 2014-06-12 22:50:16 <gdm85> sipa: ok, thanks
1869 2014-06-12 22:50:41 <Jouke> blockr.io also has testnet
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1873 2014-06-12 22:52:36 <gdm85> Jouke: so after having stopped bitcoind, can one copy over blocks/ and chainstate/ to a new node or is something else needed?
1874 2014-06-12 22:53:37 <sipa> gdm85: that should work
1875 2014-06-12 22:53:53 <sipa> just make sure the chainstate/ is not newer than blocks/
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1878 2014-06-12 22:55:43 <gdm85> sipa: they come from same node. I am getting "Incorrect or no genesis block found. Wrong datadir for network?" and trying to understand what's going wrong
1879 2014-06-12 22:56:39 <sipa> not using a testnet datadir for mainnet, or something like that?
1880 2014-06-12 22:57:05 <gdm85> nope, both source and clone are testnet
1881 2014-06-12 22:57:30 <gdm85> could it be that blocks need to come from a stopped bitcoind too? that's the only unsafe copy I did
1882 2014-06-12 22:57:50 <sipa> blocks: no
1883 2014-06-12 22:57:53 <sipa> blocks/index: yes
1884 2014-06-12 22:58:06 <gdm85> uhm..that! sipa thanks for the pointer
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1886 2014-06-12 22:58:27 <gdm85> perhaps some more verbose logging would have hinted me for that
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