1 2014-06-13 00:00:24 <denisx> is -1 confirmations a new thing?
   2 2014-06-13 00:01:48 <sipa> it means conflicted
   3 2014-06-13 00:01:59 <sipa> or at least, unable to enter the mempool
   4 2014-06-13 00:02:03 <denisx> sipa: this is new and came with 0.9?
   5 2014-06-13 00:02:07 <sipa> new since 0.9
   6 2014-06-13 00:02:08 <sipa> indeed
   7 2014-06-13 00:02:11 <denisx> ok
   8 2014-06-13 00:02:15 <gmaxwell> denisx: first line of the 0.9.0 release notes for the rpc.
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 137 2014-06-13 02:44:42 <Luke-Jr> if I have a pre-compressedkey wallet.db, will upgrading it void the keypool?
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 140 2014-06-13 02:44:51 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ^
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 235 2014-06-13 04:36:53 <aphoriser> Ang1 have any idea why bdb is in th mix
 236 2014-06-13 04:36:55 <aphoriser> ?
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 238 2014-06-13 04:39:32 <aphoriser> Just trying to understand the original rational... any RDMS + licensing perhaps? - it just seems like over kill for is seemingly a simple document model.
 239 2014-06-13 04:39:46 <aphoriser> what is*
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 250 2014-06-13 04:56:09 <Luke-Jr> aphoriser: bdb is not a RDMS
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 253 2014-06-13 05:03:11 <aphoriser> Luke-Jr, I know that I ment perhaps they thought of its future processing / reuse?.... as I said I am looking for a justification why simple / raw serialised io would not be as good?
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 264 2014-06-13 05:12:39 <Luke-Jr> aphoriser: bdb was originally used for 2 different things. now just the wallet. the wallet plans to migrate away eventually aslo
 265 2014-06-13 05:12:41 <Luke-Jr> also*
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 343 2014-06-13 07:04:19 <sipa> Luke-Jr: not afaik
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 345 2014-06-13 07:04:48 <Luke-Jr> hrm, wonder how I can get a compressed pubkey then :x
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 348 2014-06-13 07:16:15 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: reencrypt the wallet
 349 2014-06-13 07:16:22 <michagogo> That voids the pool
 350 2014-06-13 07:16:32 <michagogo> Or just make a new wallet
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 353 2014-06-13 07:18:58 <sipa> if it's encrypted, it already flushed the keys it had before
 354 2014-06-13 07:19:05 <sipa> and you don't unencrypt/reencrypt
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 374 2014-06-13 07:30:16 <michagogo> sipa: I thought that you can flush the keypool by reencrypting by changing the passphrase
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 378 2014-06-13 07:35:40 <sipa> that does not re-encrypt
 379 2014-06-13 07:35:50 <sipa> only changes the master key record
 380 2014-06-13 07:36:34 <sipa> the master key itself (and the private keys encrypted with it) remain the same
 381 2014-06-13 07:39:24 <michagogo> Really?
 382 2014-06-13 07:39:54 <michagogo> I would have thought it would change for the same reason that keypool is regenerated when you encrypt
 383 2014-06-13 07:40:26 tlrobinson has joined
 384 2014-06-13 07:40:38 <michagogo> So that you don't have any new keys that were ever stored in a way other than the current one
 385 2014-06-13 07:40:52 <gwillen> michagogo: unencrypted -> encrypted means your old keys are vulnerable and needs to be regenerated
 386 2014-06-13 07:40:58 <gwillen> a password change doesn't necessarily mean that
 387 2014-06-13 07:41:13 <michagogo> So that if e.g. the passphrase is compromised or very weak
 388 2014-06-13 07:41:38 <michagogo> s/very //
 389 2014-06-13 07:41:44 <gwillen> also, a password change doesn't mean that anything is being stored differently; in pretty much any such system, the pasword encrypts a master key, and _that_ encrypts the data
 390 2014-06-13 07:41:55 <gwillen> that's also how encrypted disks are, so you don't have to re-encrypt the whole disk on every password change
 391 2014-06-13 07:42:12 <michagogo> gwillen: right, but I mean I would have assumed the master key would be changed
 392 2014-06-13 07:42:26 <gwillen> well, with an encrypted disk that's obviously infeasible
 393 2014-06-13 07:42:32 <gwillen> since you'd be re-encrypting potentially terabytes
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 396 2014-06-13 07:42:57 <gwillen> I suppose I could see flushing the keypool when changing password
 397 2014-06-13 07:43:04 <gwillen> since it's a much cheaper operation than re-encrypting a disk
 398 2014-06-13 07:43:09 <michagogo> gwillen: of course
 399 2014-06-13 07:43:14 <michagogo> But for a wallet...
 400 2014-06-13 07:43:15 <michagogo> Yeah
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 416 2014-06-13 08:01:37 <Luke-Jr> hm, wonder what would happen if I try to import a compressed key into a wallet with an old version
 417 2014-06-13 08:01:52 Krellan_ has joined
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 419 2014-06-13 08:02:24 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: But importing keys is bad !!!!1!!111!1!!!eleventyone!11!!
 420 2014-06-13 08:02:46 * michagogo runs
 421 2014-06-13 08:02:50 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: but so are uncompressed keys! :<
 422 2014-06-13 08:04:03 tarantillo_ has joined
 423 2014-06-13 08:05:25 <dsnrk> Luke-Jr: can we bug Armory Electrum Multibit Bc.i about it? really really they shouldn't be using them at all.
 424 2014-06-13 08:05:35 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: please do
 425 2014-06-13 08:05:54 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: someone should set up a certification process for wallets ;)
 426 2014-06-13 08:06:12 * dsnrk glances at bc.i
 427 2014-06-13 08:06:36 <Luke-Jr> bc.i is hopeless, I wouldn't waste too much breath on them <.<
 428 2014-06-13 08:06:46 <dsnrk> well I know who's failing every single checkbox. no bip32, no compressed keys, useless KDF
 429 2014-06-13 08:07:28 <michagogo> dsnrk: pretty sure the KDF is fixable
 430 2014-06-13 08:07:31 <wumpus> dsnrk: brainwallet.org?
 431 2014-06-13 08:07:56 <michagogo> IIRC there's a radio buttons in the settings
 432 2014-06-13 08:08:08 <michagogo> wumpus: bc.i
 433 2014-06-13 08:08:10 <dsnrk> wumpus: didn't include it because we know the author is a thief.
 434 2014-06-13 08:08:41 <dsnrk> michagogo: nobody changes defaults. anybody smart enough to change the setting to not use 25 rounds of PBKDF2 is smart enough not to use a web wallet.
 435 2014-06-13 08:09:15 <michagogo> Well, I only know that because I recently was paid by someone who insisted on doing it by giving me a bc.i wallet ID and password
 436 2014-06-13 08:09:46 rodarmor has joined
 437 2014-06-13 08:09:49 <michagogo> I figured, if I'm forced to have a bc.i wallet, however temporarily, may as well poke around and see what it does
 438 2014-06-13 08:10:11 <dsnrk> what, why would anybody do that? that's by far the dumbest thing I've heard today.
 439 2014-06-13 08:10:32 rodarmor has quit (Client Quit)
 440 2014-06-13 08:10:51 <michagogo> dsnrk: yep
 441 2014-06-13 08:11:04 <michagogo> ;;lucky take my bitcoins
 442 2014-06-13 08:11:05 <gribble> http://takemybitcoins.tv/
 443 2014-06-13 08:11:07 <michagogo> ^
 444 2014-06-13 08:11:43 <michagogo> I've asked a couple times why, haven't really gotten a useful answer
 445 2014-06-13 08:12:04 <michagogo> One excuse was "it's for newbs"
 446 2014-06-13 08:12:19 <dsnrk> michagogo: what on earth is that site?
 447 2014-06-13 08:12:42 <michagogo> dsnrk: a game show with bitcoin prizes
 448 2014-06-13 08:14:09 benrcole has joined
 449 2014-06-13 08:14:43 <dsnrk> michagogo: right. expected something else.
 450 2014-06-13 08:15:16 <michagogo> dsnrk: like what?
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 459 2014-06-13 08:17:10 <dsnrk> er there's another one. it's like shouldibehandelingotherpeoplesmoney.com or something, but I can never remember the real URL.
 460 2014-06-13 08:17:36 <dsnrk> it just prints "no" in stoic punk letters.
 461 2014-06-13 08:17:44 <dsnrk> *pink
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 466 2014-06-13 08:22:42 <michagogo> dsnrk: ah, that's mine
 467 2014-06-13 08:22:50 <michagogo> canibuildasitehandlingotherpeoplesmoney.com
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 469 2014-06-13 08:25:03 <dsnrk> that's the one
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 526 2014-06-13 09:26:58 amincd has joined
 527 2014-06-13 09:27:07 <amincd> Hi, can I run bitcoind and bitcoind-testnet at the same time
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 532 2014-06-13 09:31:58 <dsnrk> yes.
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 536 2014-06-13 09:34:06 <amincd> dsknrk, I'm getting this error when trying: Error: An error occurred while setting up the RPC port 2000 for listening on IPv4: Address already in use. Anyway I can fix that?
 537 2014-06-13 09:34:26 akstunt600 has joined
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 542 2014-06-13 09:36:41 <dsnrk> why are you changing the ports? testnet defaults to different ones than mainnet.
 543 2014-06-13 09:36:45 <chichov> are P2SH transactions correctly included by the wallet as unspent outputs?
 544 2014-06-13 09:37:04 <amincd> dsnrk: I didn't change the ports. I started testnet, tried to start bitcoind mainnet, and got this error message
 545 2014-06-13 09:37:53 <dsnrk> sure you're not using an altcoin there? 2000 isn't a port bitcoin ever uses
 546 2014-06-13 09:38:01 <amincd> dsnrk: I'm sure
 547 2014-06-13 09:38:12 <dsnrk> bitcoin uses 8332, 8333 for mainnet and 18332, 18333 for testnet
 548 2014-06-13 09:38:21 <amincd> dsnrk: I know..
 549 2014-06-13 09:38:49 <amincd> mainnet bitcoind works fine when I don't start testnet first
 550 2014-06-13 09:40:45 <dsnrk> doesn't make sense to me
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 559 2014-06-13 09:50:06 <chichov> I have a transaction that is somehow stuck in my wallet as permanently unconfirmed, how do I get rid of that?
 560 2014-06-13 09:51:51 <gmaxwell> there is zapwallettx to blow out the wallet transactions and relearn from the network— but you can just ignore it too, it's harmless.
 561 2014-06-13 09:55:47 dims_ has joined
 562 2014-06-13 09:58:34 <chichov> it's a strange situation though, I've created a raw transaction trying to spend a P2SH multisig output and it got accepted like that into the wallet
 563 2014-06-13 09:58:51 <chichov> but, it seems like it wasn't relayed anywhere
 564 2014-06-13 10:00:00 dims_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 565 2014-06-13 10:00:30 <chichov> and although I have one of the private keys and the multisig address in my wallet, the output I'm trying to spend is not in the unspent output list
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 570 2014-06-13 10:04:03 <aphoriser> Does make install do anything? I dont see any /etc/init.d or default boot level start script
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 593 2014-06-13 10:24:04 <chichov> is there a place where I can check what's wrong with a raw transaction?
 594 2014-06-13 10:24:52 <Jouke> What do you mean with "wrong"?
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 597 2014-06-13 10:25:43 <chichov> I have a raw transaction that I've just signed myself, got a "complete" flag afterwards, but when sending it to the network it is rejected
 598 2014-06-13 10:26:46 <chichov> one of the inputs is for some strange reason not listed in my unspent list (it's a P2SH 1-of-2 multisig), although I have one of the keys
 599 2014-06-13 10:27:11 <chichov> so I want to find out why it's constantly being rejected
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 603 2014-06-13 10:28:49 Raziel has joined
 604 2014-06-13 10:28:49 <Jouke> In bitcoind you can do a decoderawtransaction to see if the transaction is well formed. Most of the time transactions are rejected because an input is allready spent or you created dust outputs that your node will not accept. Have you tried pushing the transaction elsewhere?
 605 2014-06-13 10:29:35 <chichov> yep, without success
 606 2014-06-13 10:29:43 <chichov> I checked both inputs, both are unspent
 607 2014-06-13 10:30:12 <chichov> strangely, blockchain.info says that the number of arguments in scriptSig is wrong
 608 2014-06-13 10:30:17 Chief_Panda has joined
 609 2014-06-13 10:30:35 <chichov> although it looks valid
 610 2014-06-13 10:30:57 <chichov> do you want to take a look at it yourself?
 611 2014-06-13 10:31:25 <Jouke> sure
 612 2014-06-13 10:31:53 damethos has joined
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 614 2014-06-13 10:35:51 <sipa> chichov: bitcoind only considers multisig coins yours if you have *all* the keys
 615 2014-06-13 10:36:05 <sipa> chichov: because it doesn't deal well with shared ownership
 616 2014-06-13 10:36:16 <chichov> huh, so in a 1-of-2 where I only have one, he won't see that?
 617 2014-06-13 10:36:21 <sipa> no
 618 2014-06-13 10:36:22 <chichov> pity
 619 2014-06-13 10:36:29 <sipa> it's really just proof of concept
 620 2014-06-13 10:36:51 <elichai2> heyy
 621 2014-06-13 10:36:56 <sipa> real multisig needs much more infrastructure anyway, e.g. to pass the partially signed transactions around
 622 2014-06-13 10:37:06 <elichai2> you doing something about Ghash.io?
 623 2014-06-13 10:37:21 <chichov> I created a transaction spending some coins to a 1-of-2 multisig address, where the first pubkey is mine and the second one is gibberish
 624 2014-06-13 10:37:39 <chichov> I tried to sign it and everything appeared to work, also got a "complete" flag
 625 2014-06-13 10:37:43 <sipa> chichov: what error does sendrawtransaction give you?
 626 2014-06-13 10:37:51 <chichov> Tx rejected (-22)
 627 2014-06-13 10:38:01 <elichai2> sipa: Ghash.io got 50%!!
 628 2014-06-13 10:38:18 <sipa> chichov: which version?
 629 2014-06-13 10:38:21 <sipa> elichai2: help!
 630 2014-06-13 10:38:24 <chichov> newest, 0.9.1
 631 2014-06-13 10:38:35 <sipa> strange, it should tell you what's wrong with it
 632 2014-06-13 10:38:58 <chichov> wait a sec.
 633 2014-06-13 10:39:04 <chichov> just zapped all the transactions and now he has accepted it
 634 2014-06-13 10:39:17 <elichai2> sipa: there is any technical sulotion?
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 636 2014-06-13 10:39:40 <chichov> it seems like there was some conflict with an unconfirmed transaction hanging in the air
 637 2014-06-13 10:39:58 <sipa> elichai2: no
 638 2014-06-13 10:40:05 <chichov> lets wait if it will be relayed through the network though
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 641 2014-06-13 10:42:08 <chichov> this is truly odd: he didn't relay it but gave me a transaction id back
 642 2014-06-13 10:42:18 <sipa> how do you know it didn't relay?
 643 2014-06-13 10:42:21 <chichov> and if I try to push it on blockr.io, he gives me an error
 644 2014-06-13 10:42:27 <chichov> I check it on blockchain.info
 645 2014-06-13 10:42:29 bmcgee has joined
 646 2014-06-13 10:42:30 <sipa> DIE
 647 2014-06-13 10:42:32 <chichov> typically it appears within a few seconds
 648 2014-06-13 10:42:49 <chichov> heh, anything gravely wrong with this approach?
 649 2014-06-13 10:42:51 <sipa> there's a difference between your node not relaying it
 650 2014-06-13 10:42:56 <sipa> and the network not relaying it
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 652 2014-06-13 10:43:17 <sipa> you said there was a conflicting tx in your mempool... likely others have that conflicting one in their mempool too
 653 2014-06-13 10:43:24 <chichov> alright, how would you suggest to investigate further?
 654 2014-06-13 10:43:33 <sipa> what is there to investigate?
 655 2014-06-13 10:43:47 <sipa> from the point of view of the network, you're doing a double spend
 656 2014-06-13 10:44:07 <chichov> the outputs I'm trying to claim are marked everywhere as "unspent"
 657 2014-06-13 10:44:22 <sipa> ah
 658 2014-06-13 10:44:24 <sipa> oh
 659 2014-06-13 10:44:40 <sipa> i just realized: it's only in git head that sendrawtransaction reports errors
 660 2014-06-13 10:44:50 <sipa> can you give me the hex raw tx?
 661 2014-06-13 10:44:54 <chichov> strange, not anymore
 662 2014-06-13 10:45:44 <chichov> yea, one moment
 663 2014-06-13 10:46:06 <chichov> blockchain just removed the "unspent" flag
 664 2014-06-13 10:46:35 <sipa> does it see your transaction now?
 665 2014-06-13 10:46:39 <chichov> nope
 666 2014-06-13 10:46:44 <sipa> or is it spent by another transaction?
 667 2014-06-13 10:46:48 <sipa> according to them?
 668 2014-06-13 10:47:08 <chichov> I'll give you the raw transaction, then you'll see
 669 2014-06-13 10:47:09 <elichai2> sipa: really? nothing? so we can say goodbye to bitcoin? :(
 670 2014-06-13 10:47:34 <sipa> elichai2: yep, sell all your coins to me, i'll give you 1 USD for each
 671 2014-06-13 10:47:42 <chichov> hehe
 672 2014-06-13 10:47:46 <elichai2> lol
 673 2014-06-13 10:48:11 <elichai2> sipa: if they'll pass the 51%-52% and nobody will try to stop them, i will sell my coins
 674 2014-06-13 10:48:29 <hearn> elichai2: it's fair to say that proof of work was an experiment that has been tried and failed
 675 2014-06-13 10:48:41 <hearn> satoshi did not anticipate that mining and running fully validating nodes would become disconnected
 676 2014-06-13 10:49:18 twbt has joined
 677 2014-06-13 10:49:43 <aphoriser> sudo useradd bitcoind -c "Bitcoin Daemon" -d /home/bitcoind -m -s /bin/bash -r <--- is this needed ? & shou,dnt /home/bitcoind be my ~/.bitcoin/bootstrap.dat etc?
 678 2014-06-13 10:49:43 coingenuity has joined
 679 2014-06-13 10:50:29 <sipa> aphoriser: #bitcoin
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 681 2014-06-13 10:50:56 <elichai2> hearn: there is any other proof that isn't exposed to 51% attack?
 682 2014-06-13 10:53:36 <hearn> IMHO none of the candidates for a PoW based block chain algorithm are convincing
 683 2014-06-13 10:54:02 <elichai2> or maybe isn't exposed to pools minning
 684 2014-06-13 10:54:04 <hearn> ultimately, a 51% attack is fundamental - bitcoin is a way that the majority agree on things. the problem with bitcoin is that "the majority" is determined exclusively by CPU power
 685 2014-06-13 10:54:18 <hearn> there are schemes available that break pooled mining. however it evolved for a reason
 686 2014-06-13 10:54:38 <hearn> CPU power is a very poor match for what we *really* want, which is a majority of *people*
 687 2014-06-13 10:54:48 <elichai2> yeah
 688 2014-06-13 10:54:57 <elichai2> we need node minning not CPU/GPU/ASIC
 689 2014-06-13 10:55:07 <sipa> not nodes, people
 690 2014-06-13 10:55:10 <t7> hearn: then you need an authority on what a person is, say goodbye to decentralization
 691 2014-06-13 10:55:22 <rubensayshi> so mining should be based on filling in kitty capchas?
 692 2014-06-13 10:55:26 <hearn> we already said goodbye to decentralisation.
 693 2014-06-13 10:55:26 <elichai2> that everyone that runs full node gets the reward
 694 2014-06-13 10:55:28 <sipa> if it's nodes, you just run an extra node to get more voting power
 695 2014-06-13 10:55:35 <elichai2> sipa: there is no way to do people
 696 2014-06-13 10:55:38 <dsnrk> rubensayshi: computers are better than that.
 697 2014-06-13 10:55:39 <sipa> hearn: it's still possible to complete
 698 2014-06-13 10:55:40 <hearn> "one cpu one vote" has never been really decentralised anyway. we started with two CPU manufacturers, intel and amd
 699 2014-06-13 10:55:49 <hearn> then we migrated to two GPU manufacturers, except really only ATI was competitive
 700 2014-06-13 10:55:56 <hearn> then we migrated briefly to one or two FPGA vendors
 701 2014-06-13 10:56:09 <hearn> we probably have more decentralised hardware than ever, with ASICs, ironically. but it's still ultimately rooted in a handful of companies
 702 2014-06-13 10:56:29 <hearn> sipa: complete?
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 705 2014-06-13 10:56:35 <sipa> hearn: compete
 706 2014-06-13 10:56:38 <hearn> ah
 707 2014-06-13 10:56:56 <sipa> a new manufacturer or new hosting provider or more smaller scale ones can pop up
 708 2014-06-13 10:56:59 <hearn> t7: anyway i have been researching how to solve the "what is a person" problem, hence my talks on zkSNARK proofs of passport
 709 2014-06-13 10:57:13 <spy_29r47602> "so mining should be based on filling in kitty capchas" lol interesting idea
 710 2014-06-13 10:57:33 <hearn> (actually any proof of identity, but it so happens that this one is standardised)
 711 2014-06-13 10:57:49 <hearn> sipa: sure, we see real competition in the ASIC space.
 712 2014-06-13 10:58:15 <hearn> sipa: but it's worthless if all the ASIC owners sell their votes. on reddit there are posts from people using cex.io or ghash.io - they basically say "hey it's profitable for me, and i trust them not to double spend, so why should i change?"
 713 2014-06-13 10:58:59 <hearn> tying coin rewards to mining is elegant within the PoW framework, but it leads to serious distortions like this one. an interesting thing about a hypothetical ZKPOP based coin is that seignorage could be issued via a random lottery
 714 2014-06-13 10:59:08 <hearn> like, literally anyone could find themselves the winner of new coins
 715 2014-06-13 10:59:37 <t7> sounds different :)
 716 2014-06-13 10:59:42 <hearn> it's very different
 717 2014-06-13 10:59:48 <hearn> i haven't figured out most of the details yet
 718 2014-06-13 10:59:58 <t7> but how do you limit lottery entrees?
 719 2014-06-13 11:00:08 <hearn> it's a #wizards level discussion. plus the full zkSNARKS framework isn't open source. only the core code was released yesterday
 720 2014-06-13 11:00:18 <hearn> they are fighting to open source it but i think their universities want to commercialise it ....
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 722 2014-06-13 11:01:21 <hearn> t7: each time new coins are issued, they're simply assigned to a random anonymous identity, derived from the passport. so each person can enter only once, and they can enter themselves just by pushing a button in their wallet (and/or taking part in the chain building process - i didn't decide yet if it makes sense to tie them together .... judging from ghash, maybe not)
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 724 2014-06-13 11:02:13 <t7> "so each person can enter only once" how?
 725 2014-06-13 11:02:55 <hearn> i need to write up the ZKPOP idea
 726 2014-06-13 11:03:01 <hearn> somewhere other than reddit
 727 2014-06-13 11:03:06 <hearn> let me dig up the last explanation i wrote of this
 728 2014-06-13 11:04:04 chichov has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 729 2014-06-13 11:04:09 <hearn> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/26pynt/mike_hearn_nbc_talk_no_na%C3%AFve_optimism_here/chtvvrs
 730 2014-06-13 11:06:22 <t7> i think you are chasing a pipe dream
 731 2014-06-13 11:06:47 <t7> you need someone to issue these passports
 732 2014-06-13 11:07:04 <t7> this is a huge weakness
 733 2014-06-13 11:07:25 <hearn> those "someones" already exist and have already done it
 734 2014-06-13 11:07:32 <hearn> it's no more of a weakness than needing someone to make CPUs or ASICs for bitcoin
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 737 2014-06-13 11:07:42 <petertodd> t7: indeed, governments have well oiled procedures to issue fake passports when needed - to think they'd refrain from doing something as benign as signing fake signatures to attack an unwanted system is crazy
 738 2014-06-13 11:08:05 <petertodd> t7: doesn't cost them a cent either, whereas ASICs at least have well-defined costs
 739 2014-06-13 11:08:39 <t7> ASICs would be a lot harder if the proof of work scheme was changed
 740 2014-06-13 11:08:42 <hearn> of all objections, that is by far the most stupid. people brought it up in the early days of bitcoin too: what if the US government mines and becomes a 51% attacker?!?
 741 2014-06-13 11:09:22 <hearn> it never happened. governments don't work that way. moreover, governments take forging of their passports by other governments very seriously. it's quite easy to split things up so if a citizen of country X mines a block, the next one has to be from a different country (or two or three)
 742 2014-06-13 11:09:50 <hearn> t7: no, people tried that. scrypt ASICs got built anyway, or at least people started.
 743 2014-06-13 11:09:59 <t7> maybe something requiring building an AST for some turing complete language and ensuring that it returns some result within n operations
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 745 2014-06-13 11:10:19 <hearn> t7: if you build a PoW algorithm that's "ASIC resistant" that means it's not application specific anymore, which means it'sa  CPU
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 747 2014-06-13 11:10:39 <hearn> if you have a CPU, then you can be outrun by botnets
 748 2014-06-13 11:10:43 <petertodd> t7: initially they'd be harder, unfortunately every scheme that people have come up with just makes the NRE costs to make the first ASIC go up, which perversely increases the centralization of ASICs. (remember that chip fabs operate on a contract basis)
 749 2014-06-13 11:10:45 <t7> hearn: yeah i hope there is a safe way to encode that
 750 2014-06-13 11:11:15 <petertodd> hearn: obviously I'm talking about a government forging their own passports, like I say there are well-oiled procedures for doing so for the use of police and intelligence services.
 751 2014-06-13 11:11:57 <hearn> yes, but like i said, (a) practical experience shows that we have to fear community based "attackers" a lot more than intelligence agencies when it comes to consensus interference and (b) there are ways to mitigate that by requiring an international spread, anyway
 752 2014-06-13 11:12:11 dipendra has joined
 753 2014-06-13 11:12:15 <hearn> so i am not too worried about this
 754 2014-06-13 11:12:20 <hearn> there are much more practical difficulties with the idea :-)
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 756 2014-06-13 11:12:42 <petertodd> indeed, upgrading standards comes to mind, that is consensus-critical...
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 759 2014-06-13 11:12:52 <elichai2> there is any channel for Ghash.io??
 760 2014-06-13 11:12:58 <hearn> like, how do you do a block chain based on signatures at all
 761 2014-06-13 11:13:22 <petertodd> hearn: your proof of work is obviously just signing repeatedly
 762 2014-06-13 11:13:36 <t7> proof of work is finding the private key :D
 763 2014-06-13 11:13:40 <petertodd> hearn: I mean, we're assuming they'd never issue a key in hardware other than a passport...
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 766 2014-06-13 11:13:57 <hearn> eh?
 767 2014-06-13 11:14:00 * petertodd is really looking forward to liquid nitrogen cooled passport overclockers
 768 2014-06-13 11:14:02 <hearn> passports do not reliably contain private keys
 769 2014-06-13 11:14:07 <hearn> you didn't read anything i wrote on the topic, did you?
 770 2014-06-13 11:14:13 graingert_ has joined
 771 2014-06-13 11:14:14 <hearn> please go read what i've been proposing before commenting on it further
 772 2014-06-13 11:14:34 <aphoriser> when running bitcoind should it at least verbose something?
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 774 2014-06-13 11:15:15 <petertodd> hearn: don't be so sensitive; obviously that's a semi-joke...
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 777 2014-06-13 11:15:34 <berndj-blackout> aphoriser: bitcoind -debug & tail -f $HOME/.bitcoin/debug.log
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 780 2014-06-13 11:16:12 <hearn> let's put the question of how we bind a key to a person to one side. as there are multiple ways and zkpops are only one.
 781 2014-06-13 11:16:32 <hearn> let's say each person has a key. now, how do we build a block chain of that? require majority to sign? but the full set of people taking part is fluid, so it doesn't work.
 782 2014-06-13 11:16:36 <elichai2> petertodd is doing nothing against ghash.io :(
 783 2014-06-13 11:16:42 <hearn> how do you limit the block rate? do you even need a block-based structure at all?
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 785 2014-06-13 11:17:03 <aphoriser> berndj-blackout,  do you know if I can set that in rc.local if I wanted to run at boot / restart? - & is there argument for specifying absolute path of /home/myid/.bitcoin/bootstrap.dat  ?
 786 2014-06-13 11:17:13 <elichai2> hearn: we need to think of technology that won't allow pools
 787 2014-06-13 11:17:17 <petertodd> hearn: solve it and you've solved proof-of-stake...
 788 2014-06-13 11:17:30 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 789 2014-06-13 11:17:37 <hearn> indeed
 790 2014-06-13 11:17:57 <berndj-blackout> aphoriser, i don't know, try bitcoind -help
 791 2014-06-13 11:17:58 <petertodd> elichai2: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/281ftd/why_i_just_sold_50_of_my_bitcoins_ghashio/ has two reasonable suggestions
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 794 2014-06-13 11:18:51 <elichai2> petertodd: you sold your bitcoins?!
 795 2014-06-13 11:19:09 <petertodd> elichai2: half of them - you never sell everything
 796 2014-06-13 11:20:08 <elichai2> lol
 797 2014-06-13 11:20:10 <berndj-blackout> right now i'm guessing there are more people who actively think cryptocurrencies are stupid than bitcoin users. so rent those people's passports in order to win all the lotteries
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 800 2014-06-13 11:21:06 <hearn> berndj-blackout: in the unlikely event of lots of people handing over their passports to a random stranger on the internet, it would still be no worse than what we have now, where people rent their ASICs to ghash
 801 2014-06-13 11:21:06 <petertodd> berndj-blackout: I suggested the previous time this came up that even in the absence of faked passports you'd just find law enforcement and other high personel organizations require borrowing your passport as a condition of your employment on occasion
 802 2014-06-13 11:21:40 <petertodd> hearn: there's no cost to handing over your passport - all your doing is proving posession of a key after all, and that can be done remotely
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 805 2014-06-13 11:22:28 <petertodd> anyway, this really is a -wizards topic...
 806 2014-06-13 11:22:31 <hearn> yeah
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 811 2014-06-13 11:27:03 <elichai2> ghash.io got to 51%%%%%%%% https://blockchain.info/pools?timespan=24hrs
 812 2014-06-13 11:30:18 <sipa> please, not here
 813 2014-06-13 11:30:55 <elichai2> ok....
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 822 2014-06-13 11:39:00 <amincd> How do I set the listening port for bitcoin testnet?
 823 2014-06-13 11:39:09 <amincd> in the configuration file I mean
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 826 2014-06-13 11:43:43 <elichai2> petertodd: i think that we need to make even hard fork to make something that will kill ghash.io
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 828 2014-06-13 11:44:58 <petertodd> elichai2: I strongly suspect that's politically impossible; better to continue researching pool-proof/solo-miner-friendly crypto-coin tech
 829 2014-06-13 11:46:32 <elichai2> why? why it's so impossible? today most of the users uses light wallets, so the won't even notice
 830 2014-06-13 11:47:40 <hearn> their blocks can't be reliably identified anyway.
 831 2014-06-13 11:47:42 <petertodd> elichai2: I mean, even if it were a true soft-fork it'd be politically impossible until we see a serious disaster, though hopefully I'm wrong
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 833 2014-06-13 11:48:36 <elichai2> petertodd: but they can do doublespend without anyone will even notice
 834 2014-06-13 11:48:37 <hearn> the fact that graphs like the blockchain one are even possible, is because mining pools don't mind their existence
 835 2014-06-13 11:49:36 <petertodd> elichai2: no, people will notice. what that means though is as-yet unknown. much more likely is this leading to regulation, not killing off bitcoin directly.
 836 2014-06-13 11:50:41 <petertodd> elichai2: keep in mind, I'm a pretty cautious guy - me selling 50% of my bitcoins doesn't mean I'm sure it's going to fail, it means I think there is a reasonable probability it will, and I'd rather have the money in a bank account to buy me time to help fix the problem
 837 2014-06-13 11:50:46 <Hasimir> amincd, default config is port=18333 and rpcport=18332
 838 2014-06-13 11:51:02 <Hasimir> amincd, basically the same as main + 10000
 839 2014-06-13 11:51:57 <elichai2> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=327767.0
 840 2014-06-13 11:52:13 <amincd> Hasimir: thanks
 841 2014-06-13 11:52:27 <Hasimir> np
 842 2014-06-13 11:58:50 afaf_ has joined
 843 2014-06-13 11:59:23 <petertodd> elichai2: yes, I said "notice" - whether or not they do anything is another matter. heck, in that specific case trying to pin blame on ghash.io sets a bad precident, hence why I've implemented replace-by-fee and am working to have it implemented
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 854 2014-06-13 12:08:49 <berndj-blackout> does the ghash/cex business model work if mining is reliably unprofitable?
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 861 2014-06-13 12:15:40 <petertodd> berndj-blackout: I can't see centralized hashing power competing against decentralized hashing power given the physical constraints of cooling, but that's very much "in theory" - in practice they can out-market decentralized hashing power
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 864 2014-06-13 12:17:58 <berndj-blackout> petertodd, i could still see scope for centralized mining to compete by being a "load of last resort" to absorb load dumps from the electricity grid
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 867 2014-06-13 12:18:26 <berndj-blackout> but yeah, once (optimistic?) people heat their homes with miners, it's a different game
 868 2014-06-13 12:18:36 <petertodd> berndj-blackout: sure, but even that usage is relatively decentralized world wide - those loads are most useful when spread all around the grid
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 875 2014-06-13 12:21:23 <belcher> people will heat their homes with heat pumps
 876 2014-06-13 12:21:26 <berndj-blackout> petertodd, re unprofitable, i meant that there are people who are pretty invested in bitcoin, and that 50% pools could represent a threat to their investment. i don't know if it's too early to tell or not, but if mining at a loss costs them less than the existence of >50% pools does, that's a feedback signal we want
 877 2014-06-13 12:21:37 <belcher> more efficent than miners where only 100% of the electricity goes to heat
 878 2014-06-13 12:22:26 <berndj-blackout> belcher, air conditioning has been around for many decades now, yet people still burn electrons to heat their homes. definitely where i live
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 881 2014-06-13 12:22:43 <rubensayshi> so right now the consensus of the network is that we trust ghash to be in control xD
 882 2014-06-13 12:22:47 <belcher> how odd, ok then
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 885 2014-06-13 12:23:49 <petertodd> belcher: heat pumps don't work so well in colder climates unless you put a lot of money towards getting a good heat source (e.g. geothermal)
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 888 2014-06-13 12:24:04 <petertodd> berndj-blackout: yeah, that's an unknown, and probably not sustainable long-term
 889 2014-06-13 12:24:11 <belcher> okay
 890 2014-06-13 12:24:12 <berndj-blackout> belcher, your objection remains valid though; if people aren't switching from burning electrons to to more efficient heat pumps, i don't know that they'd switch to mining bitcoin
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 892 2014-06-13 12:24:46 <petertodd> berndj-blackout: well, I've actually done the math, and where my parents live burning bitcoin makes financial sense, as an example
 893 2014-06-13 12:24:58 <hearn> sipa: is there a specific place other than the giant ProcessMessage method where message handling functions should go?
 894 2014-06-13 12:25:21 <dabura667> Just double checking, new dust limit is 564 satoshis, correct?
 895 2014-06-13 12:25:34 <berndj-blackout> petertodd, i hear you, but "makes financial sense" != "best available option" (in the general case)
 896 2014-06-13 12:25:40 <petertodd> dabura667: about 5% of the hashing power is mining that fwiw
 897 2014-06-13 12:25:49 <dabura667> haha true.
 898 2014-06-13 12:26:07 <dabura667> but it is the "new rule" that no one follows.
 899 2014-06-13 12:26:20 <hearn> right
 900 2014-06-13 12:26:48 <petertodd> dabura667: that said, some of the big pools were ignoring the dust rule alltogether, so in practice if you're paying a reasonable fee you might find it's a lot more than 5%
 901 2014-06-13 12:26:55 <dabura667> cool cool. Thanks Peter. 500 bits @changetipIRC
 902 2014-06-13 12:27:12 <petertodd> dabura667: oh, and actually, I think eligius ignores the dust rule, so you've got at least 8% right there
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 904 2014-06-13 12:27:22 <elichai2> petertodd: sorry, i wasn't here, what is "replace-by-fee"?
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 906 2014-06-13 12:27:25 <dabura667> petertodd: awesome
 907 2014-06-13 12:27:39 <dabura667> 8%.... I like those odds...
 908 2014-06-13 12:27:58 <dabura667> not as good as.......... 51% though.
 909 2014-06-13 12:28:12 <thaReal> heh
 910 2014-06-13 12:28:14 <petertodd> elichai2: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=645120.0
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 912 2014-06-13 12:28:46 <hearn> dabura667: odds of what? double spending?
 913 2014-06-13 12:29:23 afaf has joined
 914 2014-06-13 12:29:43 <dabura667> no, I mean getting a "dust" ouput mined
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 916 2014-06-13 12:29:53 <hearn> ag
 917 2014-06-13 12:29:58 <dabura667> the 51% was a jab at GHash
 918 2014-06-13 12:29:58 <hearn> *ah right
 919 2014-06-13 12:30:04 <hearn> yeah
 920 2014-06-13 12:30:28 <dabura667> so yeah, segway... anyone else SLIGHTLY nervous?
 921 2014-06-13 12:30:30 <hearn> sometimes i think the whole notion of dust was a mistake. perhaps we should have preferred to keep the rules consistent and simple, and have larger blocks.
 922 2014-06-13 12:30:51 <petertodd> dust had nothing to do with blocks
 923 2014-06-13 12:31:41 <hearn> alright. min relay fee.
 924 2014-06-13 12:31:42 <hearn> from which dust limit is derived
 925 2014-06-13 12:31:53 <hearn> the complexity it adds to everything is pretty phenomenal
 926 2014-06-13 12:31:56 <sipa> dust prevention is to prevent utxo set clutter
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 928 2014-06-13 12:32:02 <sipa> not block size
 929 2014-06-13 12:32:16 <hearn> dust limit predates ultraprune, i think? i'm forgetting
 930 2014-06-13 12:32:16 <sipa> hearn: not really no
 931 2014-06-13 12:32:22 <sipa> no
 932 2014-06-13 12:32:29 <sipa> dust limit is 0.8.1 or so
 933 2014-06-13 12:32:37 <petertodd> sipa: indeed, dust was my idea
 934 2014-06-13 12:32:50 <sipa> there was the cent rule that is much older though
 935 2014-06-13 12:32:51 <hearn> oh, right, it was introduced because of satoshidice wasn't it
 936 2014-06-13 12:33:23 <petertodd> anyway, TXO commitments could make dust concerns obsolete
 937 2014-06-13 12:33:41 <hearn> in hindsight given the rise in value, i'm thinking utxo db size is probably much less of an issue than all the associated complexity that came with the lowered fungibility
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 941 2014-06-13 12:34:10 <hearn> certainly micropayment channels got more complicated because of the dust limit
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 943 2014-06-13 12:34:47 <petertodd> hearn: well, submit a pull-req getting rid of it, I'd happily ACK that given how confident I am that TXO commitments work
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 945 2014-06-13 12:35:56 <petertodd> made colored coins a lot more complex until we realized our padding designs were bonkers
 946 2014-06-13 12:36:05 <dabura667> petertodd: TXO commitments? any links?
 947 2014-06-13 12:37:43 <sipa> hearn: i have some vague idea about adding signal handlers for every message in net, and allow different pieces of code to register to them
 948 2014-06-13 12:38:02 <sipa> but ideally, you have asynchronous handling
 949 2014-06-13 12:38:02 <hearn> petertodd: my last attempt to fix fees went pretty wrong, didn't it? there doesn't seem any point trying to simplify fees further until mining gets less broken. until then we're just writing code people don't upgrade to
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 951 2014-06-13 12:38:22 <hearn> indeed don't even announce whether they have upgraded, or whether they plan to
 952 2014-06-13 12:38:23 <sipa> for example, when a blocknis requested, there is no need to wait inside the (single threaded!) message handler
 953 2014-06-13 12:38:29 <hearn> sipa: well i was thinking just for unit testing
 954 2014-06-13 12:38:33 <hearn> sipa: as a first base :)
 955 2014-06-13 12:39:12 <petertodd> dabura667: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas <- there's a writeup on bitcointalk by gmaxwell too, but my googlefu is failing
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 958 2014-06-13 12:39:50 <dabura667> petertodd: thanks! if you ever need any Japanese googlefu, let me know ;-)
 959 2014-06-13 12:39:52 <petertodd> hearn: it went wrong because it cost miners money; I've had pool ops tell me it was a reason not to upgrade to 0.9
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 961 2014-06-13 12:40:06 <hearn> which pool ops?
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 966 2014-06-13 12:40:45 <petertodd> hearn: most of the conversations I've had have been ones where they ask to be confidental, but low double digits of hashing power
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 968 2014-06-13 12:41:02 <petertodd> hearn: dunno what btcguild thinks, for instance
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 970 2014-06-13 12:41:14 <hearn> see? this is pretty broken. when basic things like block inclusion policies are considered confidential, it's no wonder bitcoin is going wrong
 971 2014-06-13 12:41:31 <petertodd> meh, that's decentralized trustless systems for you
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 973 2014-06-13 12:42:04 <hearn> mining isn't trustless is it? miners trust pools to run Core in the "right" way, but they won't even discuss what they're doing
 974 2014-06-13 12:42:21 <hearn> this also leads to the question of what happens with floating fees
 975 2014-06-13 12:42:38 <petertodd> that trust is part of the reason why they don't upgrade immediately - I've had miners say they don't trust all the new code in 0.9
 976 2014-06-13 12:42:40 <hearn> if miners will only allow them to float upwards, bitcoin can quickly end up more expensive than credit cards
 977 2014-06-13 12:43:15 <petertodd> bitcoin already is as a system; transactions cost around $50
 978 2014-06-13 12:43:21 <hearn> eh, part of the reason 0.9 took a long time is there weren't many changes going in fast
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 981 2014-06-13 12:44:30 <hearn> though as mining is probably now only slightly easier to enter as a market than credit card processing .... i guess it's not unexpected the same cartel-like rents appear
 982 2014-06-13 12:45:15 <petertodd> it's a decentralized system; it'll never be as efficient as centralized system
 983 2014-06-13 12:45:18 <petertodd> *systems
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 987 2014-06-13 12:46:16 <waxwing> "only slightly easier to enter as a market than credit card processing" ... hmm a bit much don't you think.
 988 2014-06-13 12:46:18 crunk-juice has joined
 989 2014-06-13 12:46:25 <dabura667> petertodd: Some of the most inaccurate statements in history started with "it'll never"
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 991 2014-06-13 12:46:39 <hearn> that seems like a broad assertion unsupported by fact. the reason fees have got so high is that mining isn't a decentralised system. we're only supposed to be using fees for load control, essentially, because the theory says that miners would prefer to pick up paying transactions than leave them on the table. in practice it only takes a few people to decide not to follow the theory and fees end up only rising to become an actual
 992 2014-06-13 12:46:39 <hearn>  profit center
 993 2014-06-13 12:47:08 <petertodd> dabura667: heh, I know. that's a great example because there's so many systems you can build on top of bitcoin to drive fees down in practice, equally *maybe* something like tree chains can pull that stunt off
 994 2014-06-13 12:47:08 <hearn> waxwing: well i'm not sure how hard it is to create a new pool, but i guess by now you need a pretty hefty investment in expensive hardware to get started. otherwise people won't mine on your pool. there's an initial hump you have to get over
 995 2014-06-13 12:47:18 <hearn> waxwing: evidence suggests new pools don't come along every day at least
 996 2014-06-13 12:47:39 <waxwing> hearn, it needs a lot of money to be sure, and some skills. but it's not like starting a bank, for example.
 997 2014-06-13 12:47:53 <petertodd> hearn: look, you're gonna need something like tree chains that has a scalability/security tradeoff to make such ideas make sense. fundementally having data distributed across tens of thousands of decentralized nodes is gonna be expensive
 998 2014-06-13 12:47:59 <hearn> credit card processors are not banks, however. sure, it's still easier to create a pool than a bank. but banks are the worst case scenario for creation of new businesses
 999 2014-06-13 12:48:05 <michagogo> 15:26:58 <dabura667> so yeah, segway... anyone else SLIGHTLY nervous? <-- I think I might be a little bit nervous using a Segway for the first time, yeah.
1000 2014-06-13 12:48:14 <hearn> the UK issued its first new banking license in 150 years, recently
1001 2014-06-13 12:48:32 <hearn> i can't think of any industries as bad as that
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1003 2014-06-13 12:48:36 <dabura667> michagogo: The first time I used a segway, I freaked out.
1004 2014-06-13 12:48:40 <hearn> (i mean other industries)
1005 2014-06-13 12:48:47 <petertodd> hearn: I suggest you work more on hub-and-spoke micropayment channels - I spoke to a whole whack of people about them during the conf and the weeks after, and there's a lot of interest in getting cross-platform systems designed to make use of it. also, micropayments happen to work nicely for wallet security
1006 2014-06-13 12:49:15 <michagogo> hearn: money printing?
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1009 2014-06-13 12:49:44 <hearn> ok, maybe x86 CPU production is as bad :)
1010 2014-06-13 12:50:23 <hearn> petertodd: that's basically just banking, sped up
1011 2014-06-13 12:50:52 <hearn> i mean if you want to abandon the notion of block chains entirely, might as well just use secure hardware a la mintchip. the hardware was proven to work pretty well over the past couple of decades in EMV.
1012 2014-06-13 12:51:00 <hearn> but then it can't be decentralised anymore.
1013 2014-06-13 12:51:22 <hearn> i'm going to ignore it for a while and see what ghash.io comes up with, if anything.
1014 2014-06-13 12:51:31 <petertodd> hearn: huh? hub and spoke is trustless; it's micropayment channels
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1016 2014-06-13 12:52:06 <hearn> if they just sit pretty whilst miners collectively lemming themselves off a cliff, then i guess it's time to think about more radical solutions
1017 2014-06-13 12:52:21 <hearn> petertodd: actually i have a feeling someone told me they're working on it already. there were a few people recently who were playing with the example code in bitcoinj
1018 2014-06-13 12:52:27 <hearn> i know this cuz they reported bugs to me :)
1019 2014-06-13 12:52:51 <petertodd> good, I'd sure hope so, I probably convinced 2x or 3x companies to look into it at least
1020 2014-06-13 12:52:51 <michagogo> hearn: what would *they* do?
1021 2014-06-13 12:52:55 <hearn> but it needs malleability fixes to be properly secure. also, ideally, reactivation of the original nLockTime/replacement semantics so channels can be bi-directional
1022 2014-06-13 12:53:05 <michagogo> Kick miners out of the pool?
1023 2014-06-13 12:53:18 <hearn> michagogo: ghash? well, they could do what they said they'd do back in january and allow cex.io renters to point their rented rigs at other pools
1024 2014-06-13 12:53:24 <petertodd> bi-directionality works just fine with two single-directional channels...
1025 2014-06-13 12:53:31 <hearn> it's hardly fixing mining but would potentially rebalance things a bit
1026 2014-06-13 12:53:33 <michagogo> Ah, forgot about cex
1027 2014-06-13 12:53:39 <hearn> or yes, raise fees (though they ruled that out, i think, stupidly)
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1029 2014-06-13 12:54:12 <hearn> there was a recent interview with this jeremey smith character which didn't look good though. he basically said, "we're the best and it's not our fault if everyone wants to mine on us". so who knows.
1030 2014-06-13 12:54:16 <michagogo> Hm, I wonder how much of their hashpower is cex
1031 2014-06-13 12:54:21 <hearn> 75% they claim
1032 2014-06-13 12:54:26 <hearn> 25% is their own rigs
1033 2014-06-13 12:54:30 <hearn> oh, no, sorry
1034 2014-06-13 12:54:52 <hearn> 75% is "other miners" and 25% is bitfury asics. or something. i dunno. they're opaque and not trustworthy, imo, so who knows.
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1050 2014-06-13 13:08:00 <dsnrk> their january letter says 40% is theirs
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1055 2014-06-13 13:10:28 <teaspoon> hello
1056 2014-06-13 13:10:47 damethos has joined
1057 2014-06-13 13:10:48 <teaspoon> I wanted to ask about a possible solution the the mining pools that exist now
1058 2014-06-13 13:10:53 <teaspoon> is this the right place to do it?
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1061 2014-06-13 13:12:15 <hearn> we've been going around this for some time already. so...... probably not. short answer: nobody has a solution
1062 2014-06-13 13:12:36 <teaspoon> ok, then you should be able to dismiss my question quite quickly
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1068 2014-06-13 13:14:14 <teaspoon> if the problem is variance then is it possible to split the proof of work problem up into say 1000 proof of work problems with 1000 less difficulty, only allow a block to be added once all of these are solved and pay out each party who solves the sub problem?
1069 2014-06-13 13:14:24 <hearn> that's what pools do
1070 2014-06-13 13:14:33 <teaspoon> is the problem with this that all miners might be working of blocks that have different transactions in them?
1071 2014-06-13 13:15:00 <teaspoon> yeah, but is it not possible to build what the pools do into the core code?
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1073 2014-06-13 13:15:32 <hearn> there has been occasional talk of putting p2pool into Bitcoin Core, but the problem is that mining keeps getting more and more abstracted from the process of actually making a block
1074 2014-06-13 13:15:48 <hearn> when bitcoin was young, anyone could make blocks and earn coins by just checking a menu item in the gui
1075 2014-06-13 13:16:03 <hearn> then people started writing custom assembly versions of SHA256 and staying even took a bit more work
1076 2014-06-13 13:16:14 <hearn> then GPUs came and people started pooling, which outsourced block creation
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1078 2014-06-13 13:16:29 <hearn> now we have cex.io where people don't even own their own hardware. they buy and sell ASIC rigs on an exchange.
1079 2014-06-13 13:16:43 <teaspoon> I heard that it was only 25% of the hashing power
1080 2014-06-13 13:16:43 <hearn> so they neither run their hardware nor software, yet, they are paying for increased hashrate
1081 2014-06-13 13:17:17 <hearn> who knows what it is. but "only" 25% of hash power being (nominally) controlled by people who neither run software or hardware is pretty bad.
1082 2014-06-13 13:17:31 <hearn> so it doesn't really matter what we put into new versions of bitcoin at this point. people aren't going to be using it
1083 2014-06-13 13:17:36 <teaspoon> well that would only be 12.5% of the total power
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1085 2014-06-13 13:18:01 <hearn> the problem is more fundamental than that
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1087 2014-06-13 13:18:17 <teaspoon> so it's not just a variance problem?
1088 2014-06-13 13:18:25 <hearn> the problem is that the bar for being a miner kept being raised because of the hashing arms race. so naturally you get outsourcing and centralisation, economies of scale
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1090 2014-06-13 13:18:49 <hearn> the nature of things is that they tend to centralise over time. normally it's not considered a problem. you get mergers of companies and markets consolidate as the tech gets harder
1091 2014-06-13 13:18:58 <hearn> bitcoin tries to swim against this tide but at the moment it's not succeeding
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1093 2014-06-13 13:19:17 <hearn> variance is one issue. but there are ways to pool and reduce variance whilst still running your own node and formatting your own blocks
1094 2014-06-13 13:19:25 <hearn> miners generally don't use them
1095 2014-06-13 13:19:37 <teaspoon> what are the other ways?
1096 2014-06-13 13:20:01 <hearn> for example running p2pool, or getblocktemplate based pools. maybe others. i'm not really a mining expert.
1097 2014-06-13 13:20:20 <teaspoon> yeah me neither :(
1098 2014-06-13 13:20:30 <teaspoon> thanks for your time to explain
1099 2014-06-13 13:20:49 <hearn> no problem
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1105 2014-06-13 13:23:32 <teaspoon> what proportion of the problem would you say variance plays? what about an open source platform that mirrors what ghash.io does in terms of ease of use and then just allow people to spawn copies of that? if people are using ghash.io because it's easy of use (or whatever else) benefits them, this service should be able to be replicated no?
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1107 2014-06-13 13:24:47 <dsnrk> people seem to have the idea that the biggest pool gives the biggest income.
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1110 2014-06-13 13:25:21 <SomeoneWeird> well
1111 2014-06-13 13:25:28 <SomeoneWeird> it gives you a more stable income
1112 2014-06-13 13:25:29 <SomeoneWeird> kind of
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1114 2014-06-13 13:26:31 <petertodd> dsnrk: well, the thing is it *does*, but we're talking small single digit % points
1115 2014-06-13 13:26:33 <hearn> teaspoon: and who would write this platform? ghash has lots of features because it's a commercial operation. it's very common for open source software to be outcompeted by proprietary solutions
1116 2014-06-13 13:26:40 <teaspoon> so are the advantages of using gnash.io illusionary or are there any real advantages? (as an independant miner)
1117 2014-06-13 13:26:58 <petertodd> dsnrk: something people keep bringing up is how ghash.io is attractive for having four different merge-mined chains too
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1119 2014-06-13 13:27:16 <hearn> teaspoon: they have zero fees (though other pools match this), and they have a nice ui, and they merge mine with some alt coins hardly anyone cares about. and they have cex.io
1120 2014-06-13 13:27:21 <dsnrk> petertodd: not to the level people assume. the skim of most pools could go above 5% with nobody noticing.
1121 2014-06-13 13:27:22 <teaspoon> yes, getting contributions would be an issue, but it could be a projects that runs parallel to the bit coin core project
1122 2014-06-13 13:27:33 <hearn> teaspoon: that project exists! it is p2pool
1123 2014-06-13 13:27:41 <hearn> teaspoon: it has not met with any large success
1124 2014-06-13 13:27:44 <petertodd> teaspoon: if they're honest then yes, you really do earn slightly more at ghash.io, and decreased cognitive costs are a real issue
1125 2014-06-13 13:27:49 <dsnrk> petertodd: I don't think that's a problem. most people on eligius don't even enable the NMC payouts.
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1127 2014-06-13 13:28:37 <petertodd> teaspoon: p2pool has huge costs to run in practice for real miners - just setting it up sucks up time for instance, and it's design means that those with lower latency than others get an unfair advantage
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1129 2014-06-13 13:29:04 <petertodd> dsnrk: yes, but again, marketting is everything - eligius has a very different audience than ghash.io
1130 2014-06-13 13:29:22 <teaspoon> so p2pool isn't as 'cool' as ghash.io?
1131 2014-06-13 13:29:27 <petertodd> teaspoon: yup
1132 2014-06-13 13:29:28 <teaspoon> or as user friendly?
1133 2014-06-13 13:29:32 <petertodd> teaspoon: that too
1134 2014-06-13 13:29:44 <rubensayshi> people pick the biggest because they asume they;re the biggest for a reason, without investigating much
1135 2014-06-13 13:29:47 <petertodd> teaspoon: also, ghash.io advertises 24/7 support
1136 2014-06-13 13:29:48 <tjopper1> teaspoon its more cool, less user friendly
1137 2014-06-13 13:29:53 <teaspoon> and that can't be fixed without some money put into the project?
1138 2014-06-13 13:30:13 <hearn> teaspoon: there's a more fundamental, deeper problem at work. miners don't care about anything beyond the money they earn.
1139 2014-06-13 13:30:16 <petertodd> teaspoon: it's harder than it sounds - you really need a PR company working on it
1140 2014-06-13 13:30:20 <dsnrk> most of ghash.io's size isn't miners mining at their pool. it's their own hardware.
1141 2014-06-13 13:30:29 <petertodd> teaspoon: and picking a PR company when you know nothing about PR is non-trivial
1142 2014-06-13 13:30:31 <hearn> teaspoon: e.g. you could make p2pool just as good as ghash, and still many miners would say "why change? why should i care?"
1143 2014-06-13 13:30:48 <hearn> and yes the fact that they built giant farms for themselves is an issue as well of course
1144 2014-06-13 13:31:00 <petertodd> not to mention the dark horse of the fact that p2pool is easily attacked - e.g. the recently revealed block withholding attack on eligius
1145 2014-06-13 13:31:02 <teaspoon> if it performed in exactly the same way and they got just as much mining from it
1146 2014-06-13 13:31:05 <teaspoon> they would care
1147 2014-06-13 13:31:09 <petertodd> *eligius and btc guild
1148 2014-06-13 13:31:36 <petertodd> teaspoon: no, they'd say "why do I need to get this big blockchain thing? why's all my bandwidth being used up?"
1149 2014-06-13 13:31:44 <teaspoon> teaspoon: if they're honest then yes, you really do earn slightly more at ghash.io, and decreased cognitive costs are a real issue…. what allows them to allow miners to earn slightly more with them?
1150 2014-06-13 13:31:51 <hearn> teaspoon: well, that's what we all used to think. that's the basic assumption satoshi made way back when. it doesn't hold. miners do _not_ care.
1151 2014-06-13 13:32:01 * hearn is painting with a broad brush. some care.
1152 2014-06-13 13:32:05 <hearn> but it seems not enough
1153 2014-06-13 13:32:44 <hearn> the original vision of bitcoin was that individuals would all mine at home, with their cpus. that's why mining had a GUI at the start.
1154 2014-06-13 13:32:47 <petertodd> teaspoon: so basically the thing is a pool will never orphan themselves, which means given a x% orphan rate, the pool with 50% hashing power has x/2% higher revenue
1155 2014-06-13 13:32:51 <teaspoon> petertodd: teaspoon: no, they'd say "why do I need to get this big blockchain thing? why's all my bandwidth being used up?"… don't independent miners still have to do this even with gnash.io?
1156 2014-06-13 13:32:55 <hearn> so there would be tens of thousands of independent miners
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1158 2014-06-13 13:33:28 <hearn> teaspoon: no, with pools like that you don't run your own copy of Bitcoin Core. hence the problem. you don't know what you're mining.
1159 2014-06-13 13:33:32 <petertodd> teaspoon: miners != hashers - someone with hashing equipment just runs some tiny program that can almost run on a rasberry pi - they'll selling their hashing power to ghash.io and have nothing to do with block selection
1160 2014-06-13 13:33:46 <hearn> teaspoon: there's a protocol called getblocktemplate that lets people pool whilst still building their own blocks, using their own Core. but it's not been a success.
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1162 2014-06-13 13:33:57 <teaspoon> I see
1163 2014-06-13 13:33:57 * dsnrk remembers back to solo mining
1164 2014-06-13 13:34:08 * hearn remembers mining a block or two with his laptop
1165 2014-06-13 13:34:26 <dsnrk> heh, last year I worked out my time to block as being two weeks and just went for it
1166 2014-06-13 13:34:28 <hearn> and asking satoshi why he had to wait for the coins to become spendable ..... good times :)
1167 2014-06-13 13:34:30 <petertodd> I just can't see getblocktemplate catching on given it's higher bandwidth
1168 2014-06-13 13:34:37 * Jouke remembers mining a block with his phone.
1169 2014-06-13 13:34:39 <Jouke> Too bad it was on testnet :(
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1171 2014-06-13 13:34:54 <hearn> dsnrk: what happened? i used to think asics would result in more solo mining as heck, if you just dropped 20k on a rig you're pretty serious and can afford to wait
1172 2014-06-13 13:34:59 <teaspoon> so if you ignore the extra income they make with ghash.io then you still need to fund server for all the spawned instance?
1173 2014-06-13 13:35:20 <hearn> petertodd: why is it higher bandwidth? i don't know much about it. you have to keep refetching a new template every few seconds or something?
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1175 2014-06-13 13:35:27 <petertodd> teaspoon: yup, that alone is a serious problem
1176 2014-06-13 13:36:00 <teaspoon> ok, I'm getting a picture
1177 2014-06-13 13:36:03 <teaspoon> nothing is possible without funding
1178 2014-06-13 13:36:05 <petertodd> hearn: the templates are inherently much larger than shares
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1180 2014-06-13 13:36:08 <dsnrk> hearn: I got a block in about 150% of the time I expected. I was just about to give up when it cracked a block. I was pretty on edge waiting for the first blocks to be built on mine, I was terrified I was going to have it become stale.
1181 2014-06-13 13:36:46 <petertodd> dsnrk: excellent point - mining is scary with high variance "Is it working?!"
1182 2014-06-13 13:36:49 <hearn> dsnrk: how long could you have solo mined for without breaking your financial tolerances?
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1184 2014-06-13 13:37:11 <dsnrk> I did something bad actually, I return falsed the whole mempool section so I would make super tiny blocks that had a lower chance of being stale :(
1185 2014-06-13 13:37:16 <teaspoon> is there a way satoshi can contribute without de-anonymizing himself? :P
1186 2014-06-13 13:37:49 <petertodd> teaspoon: satoshi was just a guy you know, he had some brilliant ideas, some good ones, and some aweful ones.
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1188 2014-06-13 13:37:49 <dsnrk> hearn: at the time I would have been screwed if I didn't mine back the cost. bought the thing and then ran out of money for other reasons.
1189 2014-06-13 13:37:52 <teaspoon> i.e. the bit coins mined at the beginning set up structures to save bit coin from itself later down the road
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1193 2014-06-13 13:38:33 <dsnrk> there's really nothing to say anything but the first block and the one sent to hal finney are Satoshi's at all
1194 2014-06-13 13:38:42 <hearn> petertodd: isn't the response just a header plus coinbase, essentially?
1195 2014-06-13 13:38:49 <teaspoon> have the bit coin core devs ever hinted at satoshi further funding the development project from his coins at a steady rate?
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1198 2014-06-13 13:40:07 <petertodd> hearn: for stratum, yeah, for getblocktemplate, particularly with pooled-solo mode, no.
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1201 2014-06-13 13:40:09 <hearn> teaspoon: funding is important but it's not the only issue
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1204 2014-06-13 13:40:24 <hearn> petertodd: i am reading https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getblocktemplate and the example response doesn't seem very big?
1205 2014-06-13 13:40:39 <teaspoon> but if you had funding you could mirror and multiply ghash.io services
1206 2014-06-13 13:40:40 <hearn> teaspoon: i'm working on an app that would let us (the bitcoin community) more easily pool our funds, using assurance contracts.
1207 2014-06-13 13:41:11 <petertodd> hearn: again, compare it to stratum
1208 2014-06-13 13:41:15 <hearn> teaspoon: ghash.io does have competitors, and some of those have full time staff. it's not as simple as just finding money and then the problem gets solved. the question is: what are the solutions?
1209 2014-06-13 13:41:48 <teaspoon> ok, that's a point
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1211 2014-06-13 13:42:21 <hearn> teaspoon: e.g. if everyone switched to using getblocktemplate, the issue would go away, largely. but see the criticism section of https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Stratum
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1213 2014-06-13 13:43:13 <teaspoon> I need to go and read about this orphan rate stuff any good sources for that?
1214 2014-06-13 13:43:17 <hearn> teaspoon: in that case the community DID develop a better solution, and it didn't work out. whether that's because slush's pool didn't use it or because of bandwidth i can't say. but obviously this stuff doesn't just boil down simply
1215 2014-06-13 13:43:34 <teaspoon> I want to understand why the largest pools can benefit their miners more
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1219 2014-06-13 13:44:24 <hearn> petertodd: i don't get it. stratum looks like a json based protocol as well as gbt (gah, json). where does the extra bandwidth go? are we talking about something fundamental here or something stupid like http headers?
1220 2014-06-13 13:45:16 <petertodd> the bandwidth goes to the list of transactions, which is required if getblocktemplate is going to be of any value over stratum
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1225 2014-06-13 13:46:50 <hearn> ah. i see: the example has an empty transactions array i didn't spot. that's not a very helpful example.
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1227 2014-06-13 13:47:18 <hearn> i thought it allowed you to select your own list of transcations
1228 2014-06-13 13:47:23 <hearn> am i getting confused with some other protocol?
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1230 2014-06-13 13:48:07 <petertodd> selecting your own list means you have to send them in the other direction with shares; even worse if you're allowed to select transactions the pool may not know about
1231 2014-06-13 13:48:08 speed- has joined
1232 2014-06-13 13:48:09 <teaspoon> when you talk about p2pool you aren't talking about this are you? http://p2pool.org/
1233 2014-06-13 13:48:40 <hearn> right. this boils down to the same problem as reducing latency on block relay, doesn't it?
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1235 2014-06-13 13:49:00 <hearn> e.g. you could send just hashes and try to synchronize the memory pool
1236 2014-06-13 13:49:03 <hearn> but still ..... blocks are small
1237 2014-06-13 13:49:21 <hearn> and bandwidth seems cheap compared to the electricity cost of running a rig.
1238 2014-06-13 13:49:46 <hearn> teaspoon: p2pool.in
1239 2014-06-13 13:49:51 <petertodd> this stuff doesn't have to be entirely rational to matter... and of course, many get free electricity
1240 2014-06-13 13:50:15 <petertodd> anyway, just having hashes isn't very useful unless you run a node, which ups costs even more
1241 2014-06-13 13:50:41 <teaspoon> so are http://p2pool.org/ some scammers that try to benefit from the name?
1242 2014-06-13 13:50:57 nshlike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1243 2014-06-13 13:51:25 <hearn> it's perhaps some misguided people who don't understand the point of p2pool
1244 2014-06-13 13:51:29 <hearn> i am not sure it's a scam, per se
1245 2014-06-13 13:52:10 <dsnrk> teaspoon: yes
1246 2014-06-13 13:52:32 <hearn> teaspoon: if you want to work on it, probably making a single one-click bundle that has a Bitcoin Core (with pre-downloaded/indexed chain!) and is set up to use getblocktemplate with a supported pool .... that *might* help.
1247 2014-06-13 13:52:55 <hearn> teaspoon: for people where their bandwidth/cpu is just fine, but they're basically lazy
1248 2014-06-13 13:53:29 <dsnrk> hearn: distributing pre-indexed blocks sets an ugly precedent
1249 2014-06-13 13:54:18 <hearn> it makes no difference. unless you're reproducing the build, you're running an opaque binary anyway. given that this product would be designed for "lazy people" they're not gonna reproduce the build anyway
1250 2014-06-13 13:54:21 MaxSan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1251 2014-06-13 13:54:27 <tjopper1> teaspoon: http://p2pool.in/ or contact forrestv
1252 2014-06-13 13:55:06 <hearn> anyway, battery is going to die. ciao for now.
1253 2014-06-13 13:55:40 <dsnrk> hearn: if people start downloading "ready to go" chainstates you can get into a position where a large number of nodes have fake entries in their UXTO
1254 2014-06-13 13:55:59 <teaspoon> thanks for the answers
1255 2014-06-13 13:56:04 <teaspoon> ciao
1256 2014-06-13 13:56:10 <dsnrk> o/
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1286 2014-06-13 14:30:25 <chichov> is it possible to make P2SH with 1-of-5 multisig transactions right now?
1287 2014-06-13 14:31:01 <chichov> or even m-of-5
1288 2014-06-13 14:31:06 guest55213 has joined
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1290 2014-06-13 14:31:35 <chichov> or if there is still the hard limit of m-of-3
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1297 2014-06-13 14:35:47 <dabura667> limit for n is 16
1298 2014-06-13 14:35:58 <dabura667> any config is possible if you can get it mined.
1299 2014-06-13 14:36:16 <dabura667> the widely accepted ones are 2 of 2 and 2 of 3
1300 2014-06-13 14:37:00 <dabura667> and the one you have to worry about getting accepted is not sending TO the 9 of 16, it's sending FROM the 9 of 16.
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1304 2014-06-13 14:37:43 <dabura667> 16 is a hard limit on the number of bytes able to be put into ScriptSig
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1306 2014-06-13 14:38:35 <dabura667> err scriptPubkey?
1307 2014-06-13 14:38:43 <dabura667> I mix those up a lot...
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1318 2014-06-13 14:49:17 <Guest14473> chichov: there is no hard limit
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1321 2014-06-13 14:52:05 <elichai2> petertodd: i just read what 'replace-by-fee' is, and you really think it's a good idea to create a tool like that?
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1325 2014-06-13 14:55:01 <chichov> not entirely true guys
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1327 2014-06-13 14:55:31 <waxwing> dabura667, the limit is 15 not 16 I believe
1328 2014-06-13 14:55:33 Jaamg has joined
1329 2014-06-13 14:56:03 <chichov> let me point out some code, mom
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1331 2014-06-13 14:57:38 <dsnrk> you're limited by the maximum transaction size. the limit is partly based on your pubkeys being compressed or not.
1332 2014-06-13 14:57:51 <chichov> scriptSig is currently limited to 500 bytes, which is intended to be 1650 bytes (see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L528)
1333 2014-06-13 14:58:25 <dabura667> waxwing meh, somewhere around there. 33 bytes times 15 is 495....... seems legit
1334 2014-06-13 14:59:16 <sipa> chichov: please distinguish standardness rules and consensus rules :)
1335 2014-06-13 14:59:42 <chichov> and in script.cpp IsStandard checks whether n <= 3
1336 2014-06-13 15:00:19 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1337 2014-06-13 15:00:27 <waxwing> the relevant limit for N (in M of N) is the 520 byte redeemscript limit
1338 2014-06-13 15:02:42 <chichov> there's more than just that
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1340 2014-06-13 15:03:34 <chichov> are transactions with n > 3 currently non-standard?
1341 2014-06-13 15:04:07 <sipa> raw multisig, yes
1342 2014-06-13 15:04:09 benrcole has joined
1343 2014-06-13 15:04:13 <sipa> for p2sh that rule isn't enforced
1344 2014-06-13 15:04:21 <chichov> oh, that's interesting
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1346 2014-06-13 15:04:56 <chichov> then we are only left with scriptSig size (500 bytes)
1347 2014-06-13 15:05:06 <sipa> for now
1348 2014-06-13 15:05:15 <chichov> yep, soon to be 1650
1349 2014-06-13 15:06:08 <waxwing> isn't the 520 byte rule still going to be enforced sipa ? i seem to remember you telling me that was not going to change.
1350 2014-06-13 15:06:13 <sipa> yes
1351 2014-06-13 15:06:20 <sipa> the 520 byte limit is a consensus rule
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1353 2014-06-13 15:06:24 <sipa> it would require a hard fork
1354 2014-06-13 15:06:32 <waxwing> yes, so the limit is 15 for N
1355 2014-06-13 15:06:40 <sipa> s15 or 16, indeed
1356 2014-06-13 15:07:02 <sipa> 15, sorry
1357 2014-06-13 15:07:08 <sipa> waxwing: but only for p2sh
1358 2014-06-13 15:07:37 <waxwing> right
1359 2014-06-13 15:07:39 <sipa> raw multisig (which is by isstandard limited to n-of-3) can go up to 20-of-20 wrt consensus rules
1360 2014-06-13 15:07:42 <chichov> waxwing: once scriptSig is allowed to be 1650 bytes, you can use scripts of up to 520 bytes
1361 2014-06-13 15:08:27 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1362 2014-06-13 15:10:38 <chichov> I see that at the moment we can manage at best 4-of-4 or 1-of-12
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1364 2014-06-13 15:11:11 <chichov> for signatures of 73 bytes and pubkeys of 33 bytes
1365 2014-06-13 15:11:12 <waxwing> chichov, are you talking about p2sh or raw msig?
1366 2014-06-13 15:11:17 <chichov> p2sh of course
1367 2014-06-13 15:11:37 <waxwing> then you can do more than 4/4 or 1/12
1368 2014-06-13 15:11:40 <chichov> as sipa pointed out, for raw multisig we have the standardness rule of n <= 3
1369 2014-06-13 15:11:59 <chichov> nope, scriptSig size is 500 bytes maximum in 0.9.1
1370 2014-06-13 15:11:59 <waxwing> i've done 8 of 15 for example
1371 2014-06-13 15:12:17 <chichov> which version?
1372 2014-06-13 15:12:29 <waxwing> not standard of course; via eligius
1373 2014-06-13 15:12:34 <chichov> my bad, 0.9.0* I see here
1374 2014-06-13 15:12:46 <chichov> oh well, I'm talking about standard transactions
1375 2014-06-13 15:13:07 <waxwing> but now with this new 1650 thing, i don't see why you wouldn't be able to do the same on that?
1376 2014-06-13 15:13:22 <chichov> I think you're mistaking some things
1377 2014-06-13 15:13:52 <sipa> tell me 1) consensus or standardness  2) raw or p2sh  3) 0.9 or head
1378 2014-06-13 15:13:53 <chichov> look, for example version 0.9.0 restricts the scriptSig size to 500 bytes
1379 2014-06-13 15:13:56 <sipa> and i'll tell you the limit :)
1380 2014-06-13 15:14:34 <chichov> could you point out the difference between consensus and standardness?
1381 2014-06-13 15:15:06 <sipa> standardness: whether the reference client will relay/mine it
1382 2014-06-13 15:15:10 MaxSan has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1383 2014-06-13 15:15:14 <sipa> consensus: whether it's valid inside a block
1384 2014-06-13 15:15:21 <chichov> ah yea, that way
1385 2014-06-13 15:15:26 <sipa> standardness is policy
1386 2014-06-13 15:15:31 <sipa> consensus is validity
1387 2014-06-13 15:15:37 <chichov> alright, noted
1388 2014-06-13 15:16:00 <chichov> for 1) standardness 2) p2sh 3) 0.9 then
1389 2014-06-13 15:16:10 <chichov> and for 1) standardness 2) p2sh and 3) head
1390 2014-06-13 15:16:11 <michagogo> 500 bytes
1391 2014-06-13 15:16:18 <michagogo> 1650 bytes
1392 2014-06-13 15:16:19 <chichov> and 1650?
1393 2014-06-13 15:16:22 <chichov> thought so
1394 2014-06-13 15:16:29 <michagogo> The latter is enough for 15-of-15
1395 2014-06-13 15:16:41 <michagogo> Don't remember what the former fits
1396 2014-06-13 15:16:47 <michagogo> Also, remember
1397 2014-06-13 15:16:49 <chichov> according to my calculations the former should be 4-of-4
1398 2014-06-13 15:16:52 <sipa> 5-of-5
1399 2014-06-13 15:16:56 <michagogo> It's 34 bytes per pubkey
1400 2014-06-13 15:16:57 <sipa> oh?
1401 2014-06-13 15:16:57 <chichov> 5-of-5 even?
1402 2014-06-13 15:16:59 <michagogo> Not 33
1403 2014-06-13 15:17:12 <michagogo> The data that's pushed is 33 bytes
1404 2014-06-13 15:17:20 <michagogo> But there's the byte that pushes it
1405 2014-06-13 15:17:31 <sipa> oh, it also matters whether you're using compressed keys or not
1406 2014-06-13 15:17:35 <sipa> and whether you use the low-S patch
1407 2014-06-13 15:17:39 <chichov> but signatures are also up to 73 bytes
1408 2014-06-13 15:17:45 <michagogo> (All this, of course, is if you make sure to use compressed keys)
1409 2014-06-13 15:18:13 <chichov> 5*73 + 5*34 = 365 + 170 = 535
1410 2014-06-13 15:18:27 <michagogo> I think elichai2 burnt a mBTC or so the other day by sending to a 6-of-10 p2sh with uncompressed keys
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1412 2014-06-13 15:18:55 <sipa> with low-S, signatures are max 72 bytes
1413 2014-06-13 15:19:01 <sipa> so 73 including the push
1414 2014-06-13 15:19:22 <chichov> either way, it's a few bytes too many?
1415 2014-06-13 15:19:24 <michagogo> 10 uncompressed keys is a redeemScript longer than 520 bytes, therefore unspendable
1416 2014-06-13 15:19:37 <michagogo> sipa: how high do the single byte pushes go?
1417 2014-06-13 15:19:56 <michagogo> (i.e. how high before you need OP_PUSHDATA1?
1418 2014-06-13 15:19:59 <michagogo> )
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1420 2014-06-13 15:20:37 <waxwing> chichov, now i remember, you're right if sticking to the old standard (500), you hit the limit around M+N = 7 ish; 3 of 4 is OK, 3 of 5 maybe not, can't remember exactly.
1421 2014-06-13 15:21:08 <waxwing> I guess 3 of 5 is OK? sorry too lazy to try to figure it out :)
1422 2014-06-13 15:21:11 <chichov> waxwing: we're calculating the limits right now
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1424 2014-06-13 15:21:20 <sipa> 3-of-5 should be fine
1425 2014-06-13 15:21:22 <michagogo> ;;bc,wiki script
1426 2014-06-13 15:21:23 <sipa> with compressed keys
1427 2014-06-13 15:21:24 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script | Mar 11, 2014 ... Bitcoin uses a scripting system for transactions. Forth-like, Script is simple, stack- based, and processed from left to right. It is purposefully not ...
1428 2014-06-13 15:21:25 <chichov> 4-of-4 works too
1429 2014-06-13 15:21:39 <chichov> sipa: but I don't know how you plan to squeeze a 5-of-5 in there
1430 2014-06-13 15:21:49 <sipa> chichov: you don't, i was wrong
1431 2014-06-13 15:21:49 <waxwing> but it all seems academic since it's supposedly changing to 1650 or whatever
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1434 2014-06-13 15:22:14 <michagogo> Looks like 0-75 are single-byte pushes
1435 2014-06-13 15:22:14 <sipa> chichov: unless you go iterating signatures, to get them to 71 bytes
1436 2014-06-13 15:22:22 <michagogo> waxwing: well, not until 0.10
1437 2014-06-13 15:22:58 <michagogo> (Also remember a few bytes overhead: m, n, checkmultisig)
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1439 2014-06-13 15:25:06 <chichov> yep, mandatory OP_0, redeemScript push size, m, n, signature and pubkey data pushes
1440 2014-06-13 15:25:20 <chichov> and OP_CHECKMULTISIG
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1444 2014-06-13 15:29:06 <michagogo> chichov: mandatory op_0 is in spend
1445 2014-06-13 15:29:14 <michagogo> Not just redeemscript
1446 2014-06-13 15:29:23 <michagogo> s/ just//
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1448 2014-06-13 15:29:41 <chichov> uhm, yes, I mixed them all together
1449 2014-06-13 15:30:00 <michagogo> Right, since they do matter for the scriptSig
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1451 2014-06-13 15:30:30 <chichov> yep, that's what I focused on, as we won't reach the redeemScript limit anyways
1452 2014-06-13 15:30:44 <michagogo> And also
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1454 2014-06-13 15:30:58 <michagogo> If n>2, you need 2 push bytes
1455 2014-06-13 15:31:41 <chichov> uhm, why is that precisely?
1456 2014-06-13 15:31:57 <michagogo> and if n>8 (give or take 1) you need 3
1457 2014-06-13 15:32:10 <michagogo> chichov: for the redeemScript, I mean
1458 2014-06-13 15:32:21 gimmetime has joined
1459 2014-06-13 15:32:34 <michagogo> If pushing more than 75 bytes you use op_pushdata1
1460 2014-06-13 15:32:34 ivan\ has joined
1461 2014-06-13 15:32:56 <michagogo> If pushing more than 252(iirc) you use op_pushdata2
1462 2014-06-13 15:33:16 <michagogo> Er, no
1463 2014-06-13 15:33:24 <michagogo> More than 255, that is
1464 2014-06-13 15:33:42 <chichov> uhm, 1-75 bytes should be 1 push byte, 76 for up to 255
1465 2014-06-13 15:33:45 <michagogo> (I was thinking of varints when I said 252)
1466 2014-06-13 15:33:50 <michagogo> chichov: right
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1468 2014-06-13 15:34:25 <michagogo> 0-75 bytes is 1 push byte
1469 2014-06-13 15:34:30 <michagogo> 76-255 is 2
1470 2014-06-13 15:34:50 <chichov> and 255-whatever is 3
1471 2014-06-13 15:34:55 <michagogo> 256-(2^16-1) is 3
1472 2014-06-13 15:34:59 mihar has joined
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1474 2014-06-13 15:35:05 <michagogo> 65535 maybe?
1475 2014-06-13 15:35:12 <michagogo> ;;calc 2**16-1
1476 2014-06-13 15:35:12 <chichov> 2^16 is 65535 indeed
1477 2014-06-13 15:35:13 <gribble> 65535
1478 2014-06-13 15:35:15 <michagogo> Yeah
1479 2014-06-13 15:35:17 <chichov> 6*
1480 2014-06-13 15:35:27 <chichov> so it's 65535 yea
1481 2014-06-13 15:35:51 <michagogo> ...and if for whatever reason you're ever pushing more than that, it's 5 push bytes
1482 2014-06-13 15:36:05 <michagogo> (That shouldn't happen)
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1484 2014-06-13 15:36:25 <chichov> no, not really, haha
1485 2014-06-13 15:36:53 <chichov> alright then, everything should be crystalclear
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1488 2014-06-13 15:37:55 <dabura667> ;;calc 32497283749827398 mod 2347987
1489 2014-06-13 15:37:55 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1490 2014-06-13 15:38:02 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
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1493 2014-06-13 15:38:20 <dabura667> ;;calc 2**160
1494 2014-06-13 15:38:21 <gribble> 1461501637330902918203684832716283019655932542976
1495 2014-06-13 15:38:27 IGHOR has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1496 2014-06-13 15:38:35 <dabura667> ;;calc 5 mod 3
1497 2014-06-13 15:38:37 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
1498 2014-06-13 15:39:15 <dabura667> ;;calc 2**256
1499 2014-06-13 15:39:18 <gribble> 115792089237316195423570985008687907853269984665640564039457584007913129639936
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1503 2014-06-13 15:39:51 <dabura667> interesting.
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1513 2014-06-13 15:43:33 <michagogo> ;;calc 5%3
1514 2014-06-13 15:43:34 <gribble> 2
1515 2014-06-13 15:43:37 <michagogo> dabura667: ^
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1517 2014-06-13 15:45:39 <michagogo> dabura667: so you want ,,(calc 32497283749827398 % 2347987)
1518 2014-06-13 15:45:42 <gribble> 579505
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1525 2014-06-13 15:49:51 <rubensayshi> hmm, I thought I read somewhere that it wasn't possible to have multiple TXouts for the same address? http://blockexplorer.com/tx/39b15afb8b6bcf33801066ca0543cd2ac9fec506e70c2031dd69654c2df76664
1526 2014-06-13 15:50:41 <Jouke> It is hard to create with bitcoind
1527 2014-06-13 15:51:13 <Jouke> *such a transaction.
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1529 2014-06-13 15:51:44 <rubensayshi> okay, thanks ;-)
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1531 2014-06-13 15:52:23 <Jouke> Because the RPC uses a json array, with the addresses as keys. So a sendmany to {"address1":1,"address1:2} won't work.
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1533 2014-06-13 15:53:41 <poutine> rubensayshi, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L732-L787 that's pretty much the rules
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1540 2014-06-13 15:56:55 <rubensayshi> poutine thanks, should have just looked at the code instead of asking :P
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1544 2014-06-13 15:58:33 <dabura667> ;;calc (2**378) % (2**78)
1545 2014-06-13 15:58:34 <gribble> 0
1546 2014-06-13 15:58:59 <dabura667> oh yeah, lol
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1548 2014-06-13 15:59:33 <dabura667> ;;calc (2**378) - 1 % (2**78)
1549 2014-06-13 15:59:34 <gribble> 615656346818663737691860001564743965704370926101022604186692084441339402679643915803347910232576806887603562348544
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1551 2014-06-13 15:59:52 <dabura667> ;;calc 2**78
1552 2014-06-13 15:59:52 <chichov> any way to create a raw transaction with an OP_RETURN output?
1553 2014-06-13 15:59:53 <gribble> 302231454903657293676544
1554 2014-06-13 16:00:06 <dabura667> ;;calc ((2**378) - 1) % (2**78)
1555 2014-06-13 16:00:07 <gribble> 0
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1575 2014-06-13 16:16:57 <andytoshi> is there a technical reason that bitcoind doesn't use P2SH for every output?
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1582 2014-06-13 16:21:11 <hearn> it makes bigger blocks, overall?
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1584 2014-06-13 16:22:33 <andytoshi> that's what i was looking for, i wasn't sure. thx hearn
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1595 2014-06-13 16:28:13 <lechuga_> how can miners be incentivized to use gbt
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1675 2014-06-13 17:22:56 <aphoriser> I dont get it.... I imported bootstrap.dat  and upon running bitd - its renamed it to .old and tailing log I see 0.9999% progression? -er like 12 hours aft
1676 2014-06-13 17:23:09 <aphoriser> after*
1677 2014-06-13 17:23:26 <aphoriser> what have I done wrong
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1739 2014-06-13 18:00:03 <Kireji> bitcoin.org/bin/0.9.1/bitcoin-0.9.1-linux.tar.gz is downloading at 17kB/s
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1742 2014-06-13 18:01:06 <Kireji> is there a faster source?  (and) this is kind of a problem.
1743 2014-06-13 18:01:19 <aphoriser> Kireji,   gihub?
1744 2014-06-13 18:01:25 t7 has joined
1745 2014-06-13 18:01:28 <aphoriser> Kireji,   github*
1746 2014-06-13 18:01:52 <Kireji> https://bitcoin.org/en/download says the linux version is 36mb, the file is 44
1747 2014-06-13 18:02:08 <Kireji> aphoriser: I checked on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
1748 2014-06-13 18:03:13 <Kireji> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/releases/tag/v0.9.1 only has source
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1765 2014-06-13 18:11:29 <aphoriser> I guess my sync / block chain update is takaing forever cause I am behind NAT?  - not noticing any big network load - and only on 0.99999999% progression since 10 hour ago
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1768 2014-06-13 18:15:07 <Emcy_> shouldnt make a difference
1769 2014-06-13 18:15:19 <Emcy_> restart bitcoin
1770 2014-06-13 18:15:22 <dhill> you may be connected to a slow sync peer
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1785 2014-06-13 18:29:52 <helo> aphoriser: 99% progress, or 0.99% progress?
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1790 2014-06-13 18:32:29 <aphoriser> helo,  0.9999997% varies  less than 1
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1792 2014-06-13 18:33:49 <aphoriser> Also I dont get > make install -   I sudo-ed this - but still no /etc/init   or init.d script now is it palced in /usr/;ocal/bin - I copied it manually -
1793 2014-06-13 18:34:03 <helo> so less than one percent complete... 12 hours to validate 99% of the blockchain doesn't sound too outrageous
1794 2014-06-13 18:34:08 <aphoriser> Annoying how bitd doenst even verbose / stdout anything on start  :-p
1795 2014-06-13 18:34:11 * aphoriser hides
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1797 2014-06-13 18:34:26 <helo> aphoriser: lets talk about your issues in #bitcoin, this is for Real Work
1798 2014-06-13 18:34:46 <aphoriser> soz sure.
1799 2014-06-13 18:34:59 moarrr_bitcoin is now known as moarrr_darkcoin
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1805 2014-06-13 18:38:14 <ielo> hey can someone invite me to #physics thanks
1806 2014-06-13 18:38:23 <ielo> thanks in advance
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1935 2014-06-13 20:20:09 <phantomcircuit> interesting
1936 2014-06-13 20:20:32 <phantomcircuit> gprof shows pretty bizarre results
1937 2014-06-13 20:20:34 <phantomcircuit>  22.04    185.58   185.58 79790639     0.00     0.00  leveldb::SkipList<char const*, leveldb::MemTable::KeyComparator>::FindGreaterOrEqual(char const* const&, leveldb::SkipList<char const*, leveldb::MemTable::KeyComparator>::Node**) const
1938 2014-06-13 20:20:45 <phantomcircuit> as the top % of wall clock time
1939 2014-06-13 20:22:27 <phantomcircuit> oh right openssl isn't built with -pg
1940 2014-06-13 20:22:28 <phantomcircuit> erp
1941 2014-06-13 20:22:30 <phantomcircuit> derp
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1951 2014-06-13 20:45:09 <Kesla> Hey, anyone know what's the differences are with the bitcoin leveldb-branch? https://github.com/bitcoin/leveldb
1952 2014-06-13 20:45:50 <Kesla> I've looked through the commit history real quick, and I see that snappy is disabled, but other then that it'd be interesting to see what features it got.
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1954 2014-06-13 20:47:55 <sipa> Kesla: windows support
1955 2014-06-13 20:48:09 <sipa> (and makefiles that work with mingw)
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2003 2014-06-13 21:41:00 <reipr> im taking a survey. How annoyed would you guys be if an exchange made you enter your OTP everytime you created a buy/sell order?
2004 2014-06-13 21:41:51 <justanotheruser> reipr: if I set up my account to force that to happen, not at all. It's all about giving people options
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2105 2014-06-13 23:37:38 ryantw has joined
2106 2014-06-13 23:38:20 <ryantw> dont know if anyone remembers me from yesterday, but i figured out my issue. i feel like a moron, simply needed hashblock in the txtojson
2107 2014-06-13 23:38:34 davec has joined
2108 2014-06-13 23:39:05 <ryantw> anyhow, i have a question, why is there time and blocktime in the rpcrawtransaction? specifically here: https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git/blob/master/src/rpcrawtransaction.cpp#L102
2109 2014-06-13 23:39:21 <ryantw> they seem like duplicate values, unless i am missing something
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