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   4 2014-06-15 00:07:12 <G_Qu> sorry amiller, here's more detailed information http://pastebin.com/L0dJ8gRC
   5 2014-06-15 00:07:57 <ielo> hey can someone help me out i get a syntax error
   6 2014-06-15 00:07:59 <amiller> G_Qu, put ' ' around the second part as well as the first part
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   9 2014-06-15 00:09:48 <amiller> G_Qu, note that the error is from zsh, not from bitcoin
  10 2014-06-15 00:10:58 <G_Qu> thanks amiller
  11 2014-06-15 00:11:06 <G_Qu> think i will kill zsh
  12 2014-06-15 00:12:09 <amiller> no don't kill zsh, i'm just pointing out that the error message is a hint to you that you are making an error that has to do with not understanding your shell's syntax, not bitcoind syntax
  13 2014-06-15 00:12:49 <G_Qu> well that's unfortunate. I have no idea how I can get around that.
  14 2014-06-15 00:13:10 <kadoban> By fixing your shell syntax...
  15 2014-06-15 00:13:45 <G_Qu> sounds good
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  38 2014-06-15 01:04:05 <gavinandresen> If you're able to gitian-build releases… now would be a great time to fire up your virtual machine and build the 0.9.2 release.
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  48 2014-06-15 01:21:30 <midnightmagic> sweet
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 122 2014-06-15 02:57:57 <brandondahler> I'm working on a code change to reduce block file size by about 15% (3GB), by parsing static script values and indexing duplicates on a per-file basis.  One part of it is that I will need to re-write the block files and re-process the blocks within to update the disk positions of blocks and transactions.  I was looking to see if anyone could give me a summary of what might need to be
 123 2014-06-15 02:57:57 <brandondahler> done/what functions might help in re-processing the newly sized block file.
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 241 2014-06-15 04:43:36 <michagogo> gavinandresen: I should actually have the last build waiting for me done downstairs
 242 2014-06-15 04:44:10 <michagogo> Just woke up, within the next hour or so I should have it signed and pushed for you to pull
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 277 2014-06-15 05:28:46 <btcxpert> n
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 286 2014-06-15 05:40:03 <fanquake> ;blocks
 287 2014-06-15 05:48:04 <fanquake> ;;blocks
 288 2014-06-15 05:48:04 <gribble> 305895
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 290 2014-06-15 05:51:35 <michagogo> wumpus: if you see this, you can pull from my gsigs repo -- I pushed, but didn't have enough time to open a browser and PR
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 292 2014-06-15 05:54:22 <jcorgan> ;;seen wyager
 293 2014-06-15 05:54:23 <gribble> wyager was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 10 weeks, 4 days, 8 hours, 59 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <wyager> Easy to read through
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 355 2014-06-15 07:26:14 <robin__> how does the bitcoin client create a wallet? the Q is not how to create a wallet, but how does the client do it?
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 357 2014-06-15 07:29:09 <Luke-Jr> quick, 2 minutes to answer!
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 428 2014-06-15 09:18:55 <SomeoneWeird> Luke-Jr: i expected more of you
 429 2014-06-15 09:19:00 <SomeoneWeird> but you were not fast enough
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 436 2014-06-15 09:24:30 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird: ;)
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 447 2014-06-15 09:32:04 <SomeoneWeird> i am attempting to gitian. my guest vm keeps panicing c_c;
 448 2014-06-15 09:32:29 <michagogo> SomeoneWeird: hm, that's not good
 449 2014-06-15 09:32:45 <michagogo> (luke, want to pull in my sigs?)
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 452 2014-06-15 09:34:03 <SomeoneWeird> michagogo: aye, can't remember, was it you i chatted to about this before?
 453 2014-06-15 09:34:11 akstunt600 has joined
 454 2014-06-15 09:34:11 <michagogo> maybe?
 455 2014-06-15 09:34:43 <SomeoneWeird> heh, nvm then
 456 2014-06-15 09:36:05 <michagogo> What is your build environment?
 457 2014-06-15 09:36:27 <michagogo> If the guest VM is panicking, I guess you're using KVM or VBox?
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 459 2014-06-15 09:37:53 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: done
 460 2014-06-15 09:38:24 <SomeoneWeird> michagogo: vbox for gitian host
 461 2014-06-15 09:38:30 <SomeoneWeird> hrmm
 462 2014-06-15 09:38:42 <SomeoneWeird> ok running the lxc setup cmd seems to have worked for the second time
 463 2014-06-15 09:39:01 <michagogo> So you're on some machine, running gitian with LXC inside VBox?
 464 2014-06-15 09:39:25 <michagogo> That's what I do too. I wonder what's going wrong.
 465 2014-06-15 09:39:29 <SomeoneWeird> yup
 466 2014-06-15 09:39:38 <SomeoneWeird> i'll see how the dep builds go
 467 2014-06-15 09:39:42 <michagogo> Good luck
 468 2014-06-15 09:39:47 <SomeoneWeird> :)
 469 2014-06-15 09:39:55 <michagogo> If you just want a quick gbuild, the osx natives is a fast one
 470 2014-06-15 09:39:59 <michagogo> (IIRC)
 471 2014-06-15 09:40:17 <michagogo> (to see that it works, I mean)
 472 2014-06-15 09:40:51 <SomeoneWeird> hm, boost seems to have built OK
 473 2014-06-15 09:41:00 <SomeoneWeird> maybe something just went funky the first time i ran the command
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 477 2014-06-15 09:45:57 <michagogo> Oy
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 479 2014-06-15 09:46:07 <michagogo> wumpus: Gavin mismatches OS X with us
 480 2014-06-15 09:47:04 <michagogo> (Win is fine, though)
 481 2014-06-15 09:47:08 <michagogo> (and Linux)
 482 2014-06-15 09:47:13 <michagogo> ;;seen gavinandresen
 483 2014-06-15 09:47:13 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 8 hours, 43 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> If you're able to gitian-build releases… now would be a great time to fire up your virtual machine and build the 0.9.2 release.
 484 2014-06-15 09:48:00 <michagogo> ;;later tell gavinandresen Looks like OS X matches between my build and Wladimir's, but differs from yours. D'you think it's the unclean VM issue again
 485 2014-06-15 09:48:00 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 486 2014-06-15 09:48:05 <michagogo> ;;later tell gavinandresen Looks like OS X matches between my build and Wladimir's, but differs from yours. D'you think it's the unclean VM issue again?
 487 2014-06-15 09:48:05 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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 492 2014-06-15 09:51:25 <SomeoneWeird> michagogo: hey, is $SIGNER supposed to be a string or the key id?
 493 2014-06-15 09:51:50 <michagogo> SomeoneWeird: it's what's passed to gpg in -u IIRC
 494 2014-06-15 09:52:06 <SomeoneWeird> aha, thanks
 495 2014-06-15 09:52:15 <michagogo> But it's also the name of the directory created in the gitian.sigs repo
 496 2014-06-15 09:52:44 <michagogo> SomeoneWeird: So you probably want it to be something that will be identifiable as you, while still letting GPG recognize it
 497 2014-06-15 09:52:53 <michagogo> I use SIGNER=michagogo, for example
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 499 2014-06-15 09:53:14 <SomeoneWeird> ok
 500 2014-06-15 09:53:24 <SomeoneWeird> thanks - hopefully this works :)
 501 2014-06-15 09:53:58 <michagogo> g2g for a bit now. I'll be back later. Good luck, and thank you.
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 505 2014-06-15 09:58:35 <SomeoneWeird> damnit
 506 2014-06-15 09:58:44 <SomeoneWeird> qt-linux* builds don't match
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 510 2014-06-15 10:01:42 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird: none of them?
 511 2014-06-15 10:02:12 <SomeoneWeird> building the inputs atm
 512 2014-06-15 10:02:19 <SomeoneWeird> http://pastie.org/9291791
 513 2014-06-15 10:02:20 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird: bitcoin-cli perhaps?
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 515 2014-06-15 10:06:13 <SomeoneWeird> hrm
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 522 2014-06-15 10:17:32 <SomeoneWeird> damn, same results, any idea Luke-Jr ?
 523 2014-06-15 10:18:14 <wumpus> SomeoneWeird: can you upload your version of the dependency somewhere? qt-linux shouldn't be so big
 524 2014-06-15 10:18:33 <SomeoneWeird> wumpus: the built tarball?
 525 2014-06-15 10:18:57 <wumpus> SomeoneWeird: well, the dependency file that mismatches
 526 2014-06-15 10:19:05 <SomeoneWeird> can do
 527 2014-06-15 10:19:31 <wumpus> qt-linux32-4.6.4-gitian-r1.tar.gz for example (or the 64 one, but I suppose they'll both differ in the same way so one will do)
 528 2014-06-15 10:19:37 cbeams has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 530 2014-06-15 10:20:26 <wumpus> also - even if an intermediate dependency mismatches it may still be the case that the end product is the same, for example if only the order of the files is different or some other stupid difference
 531 2014-06-15 10:21:04 <SomeoneWeird> hm, okay
 532 2014-06-15 10:21:17 <wumpus> so it makes sense to just keep on going nevertheless
 533 2014-06-15 10:22:34 <SomeoneWeird> https://www.dropbox.com/s/6z3blkrktxa33b0/qt-linux32-4.6.4-gitian-r1.tar.gz
 534 2014-06-15 10:22:36 <wumpus> for example, recently gitian-builder was updated to fix the locale, the locale can affect file sorting, so it is probably something like that
 535 2014-06-15 10:24:55 <wumpus> SomeoneWeird: yes, the difference is harmless, it is one of the auxilary tools that differs
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 537 2014-06-15 10:25:02 <SomeoneWeird> ok, cool :)
 538 2014-06-15 10:25:10 <SomeoneWeird> thanks
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 540 2014-06-15 10:26:00 <wumpus> vbindiff a/bin/lrelease b/bin/lrelease -> qt_instdate=2011-01-30 versus 2014-06-15... thought I'd fixed that ~a week ago, but maybe I didn't cherry-pick it back to 0.9.2 branch
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 543 2014-06-15 10:27:45 <wumpus> indeed -  that was commit 386e732
 544 2014-06-15 10:28:04 <wumpus> but as said, no need to rebuild your dependency for that
 545 2014-06-15 10:28:27 <SomeoneWeird> yep sweet, shall keep going
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 587 2014-06-15 11:13:42 <elichai2> hey
 588 2014-06-15 11:13:54 Aido has joined
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 590 2014-06-15 11:14:14 <elichai2> it is possible that ghash.io splitted their hash power via two diffrent IP's so everybody will think they got only 36%?
 591 2014-06-15 11:14:20 phungus has joined
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 593 2014-06-15 11:15:52 <Emcy> oh yes
 594 2014-06-15 11:15:56 <Emcy> more than possible
 595 2014-06-15 11:16:14 <elichai2> so how can i know 107.170.32.58 isn't ghash.io too?
 596 2014-06-15 11:16:25 Zoop_ has joined
 597 2014-06-15 11:16:36 <Emcy> cant
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 605 2014-06-15 11:21:45 <netg_> they their standard provider/ASN
 606 2014-06-15 11:23:01 <netg_> they=not
 607 2014-06-15 11:24:11 <Emcy> i dont think its hard to proxy found blox thru a completely different range
 608 2014-06-15 11:24:29 <dsnrk> elichai2: IP addresses aren't part of blocks.
 609 2014-06-15 11:24:54 <elichai2> dsnrk: so how blockchain.info say's who mined what block?
 610 2014-06-15 11:25:08 <dsnrk> bc.i is made of assumptions and bullshit.
 611 2014-06-15 11:25:27 <elichai2> (btw, can i ask which of the devs sold part of their BTC's except petertodd?)
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 613 2014-06-15 11:26:22 <dsnrk> all of the IP address stuff they have is as well as made up. blocks don't and can't have IP address information. pools can tag their coinbases as theirs, but they can just decide not to do that as well. pools can even pretend blocks are another pools if they had the inclination to.
 614 2014-06-15 11:26:30 erasmospunk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 615 2014-06-15 11:26:49 <dsnrk> this is more #bitcoin stuff than -dev, lets tak this coversation there.
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 637 2014-06-15 11:59:10 <elichai2> any of the devs here can say if he sold his BTC's or not? (except pettertodd)
 638 2014-06-15 12:00:06 <michagogo> elichai2: this is not the place for this
 639 2014-06-15 12:00:45 <elichai2> michagogo: so where it is?
 640 2014-06-15 12:01:04 <michagogo> #bitcoin, if anywhere at all.
 641 2014-06-15 12:01:26 <elichai2> but the devs aren't there...
 642 2014-06-15 12:01:36 bitwyre has joined
 643 2014-06-15 12:02:05 <michagogo> Too bad.
 644 2014-06-15 12:02:14 <michagogo> (also, some are)
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 653 2014-06-15 12:22:46 <SomeoneWeird> elichai2: that's not very polite, either
 654 2014-06-15 12:23:02 <SomeoneWeird> kind of private information
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 656 2014-06-15 12:24:37 <SomeoneWeird> wumpus: hey, I presume the OSX sdk has to be for 10.7? (ie. not possible for me to build it on mavericks?)
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 661 2014-06-15 12:29:31 <elichai2> SomeoneWeird: i know... that why i asked for a dev that want to say, i didn't asked one by one, it's just to prove some people that this threat is real
 662 2014-06-15 12:30:08 * SomeoneWeird sighs
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 673 2014-06-15 12:48:32 <michagogo> SomeoneWeird: Hm? The SDK used in gbuilds is the 10.7 one
 674 2014-06-15 12:48:33 <michagogo> I guess you could probably build for Mavericks if you wanted to, but that's not what's used for the release binaries
 675 2014-06-15 12:48:56 <SomeoneWeird> right, so I'd need 10.7 installed to get the SDK for gitian builds?
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 678 2014-06-15 12:52:37 <SomeoneWeird> michagogo: hm, that's a pain
 679 2014-06-15 12:52:43 <SomeoneWeird> guess i won't be building OSX then
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 694 2014-06-15 13:16:28 <michagogo> SomeoneWeird: no, no
 695 2014-06-15 13:16:56 <michagogo> SomeoneWeird: do you have Xcode installed?
 696 2014-06-15 13:17:35 <SomeoneWeird> I don't have a mac available atm. There's some at work which I can probably use tomorrow
 697 2014-06-15 13:17:50 <michagogo> SomeoneWeird: see release-process.md
 698 2014-06-15 13:17:59 <michagogo> And readme-osx or something
 699 2014-06-15 13:18:18 <SomeoneWeird> yeah, i've got it sorted using other methods, thanks though :)
 700 2014-06-15 13:18:42 <michagogo> Short version: you download an older Xcode from apple's dev site and pull the SDK out of the dmg
 701 2014-06-15 13:18:53 seven has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 702 2014-06-15 13:18:53 <michagogo> (Or have someone illegally give you a copy)
 703 2014-06-15 13:19:18 <SomeoneWeird> aha, right
 704 2014-06-15 13:19:19 <SomeoneWeird> thanks :)
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 707 2014-06-15 13:20:45 <bitSpud__> Free Spuds!!! Up to 100% Profit, 50 % Consolations!!!  www.bitspud.com
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 709 2014-06-15 13:21:41 <SomeoneWeird> sigh.
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 716 2014-06-15 13:28:39 <bitSpud> Free Spuds!!! Up to 100% Profit, 50 % Consolations!!!  www.bitspud.com
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 719 2014-06-15 13:32:00 * SomeoneWeird goes and works out how to add autokick to gribble
 720 2014-06-15 13:32:16 <SomeoneWeird> lol wtf he's using the same IP
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 743 2014-06-15 13:44:19 <SomeoneWeird> wow, i totally just built rc2 for everything. woops.
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 752 2014-06-15 13:53:30 <michagogo> SomeoneWeird: well, the deps are the same
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 754 2014-06-15 13:53:36 <SomeoneWeird> yeah :)
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 775 2014-06-15 14:23:26 <michagogo> ;;seen wumpus
 776 2014-06-15 14:23:27 <gribble> wumpus was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 hours, 55 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <wumpus> but as said, no need to rebuild your dependency for that
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 780 2014-06-15 14:27:44 <aschildbach> Anyone here who can help with error messages from the gitian build?
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 787 2014-06-15 14:36:12 <michagogo> aschildbach: what's up
 788 2014-06-15 14:36:24 <aschildbach> ah hi
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 791 2014-06-15 14:37:37 <aschildbach> michagogo: I'm trying to build deps-linux. Will post error msg in a few seconds.
 792 2014-06-15 14:38:32 <aschildbach> Hmm currently it checks endlessly if target is up...
 793 2014-06-15 14:38:42 <aschildbach> So I don't even get to the error msg.
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 797 2014-06-15 14:39:49 <michagogo> aschildbach: which VM is being used for the build?
 798 2014-06-15 14:39:51 <michagogo> KVM?
 799 2014-06-15 14:40:00 <aschildbach> How can I say?
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 801 2014-06-15 14:41:12 <aschildbach> hmmm still checking... Guess I will abort it.
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 804 2014-06-15 14:42:50 <aschildbach> michagogo: Ah after breaking (ctrl-c) I think I got to the error msg I already has two days ago:
 805 2014-06-15 14:43:13 <michagogo> aschildbach: what is your build setup?
 806 2014-06-15 14:43:16 <aschildbach> gbuild:21:in 'system!' failed to run onn-target true
 807 2014-06-15 14:43:26 <aschildbach> That sounds extremely cryptic to me
 808 2014-06-15 14:43:52 <aschildbach> I'm using Ubuntu 14.04
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 810 2014-06-15 14:45:28 <wumpus> hello michagogo
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 814 2014-06-15 14:50:04 <michagogo> aschildbach: you have the base-suite-arch.qcow2 files, right?
 815 2014-06-15 14:50:27 <michagogo> wumpus: did you see that it looks like we match, but Gavin's OS X doesn't?
 816 2014-06-15 14:50:59 <michagogo> aschildbach: do you also have files with the same name, but without the .qcow2?
 817 2014-06-15 14:51:34 <aschildbach> I have base-precise-amd64/i386.qcow2
 818 2014-06-15 14:51:44 <aschildbach> And target-precise-amd64/i386.qcow2
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 820 2014-06-15 14:53:11 <aschildbach> Don't worry about aschildbach_ -- I'm still here.
 821 2014-06-15 14:53:25 <michagogo> But only qcow2, right?
 822 2014-06-15 14:53:32 <aschildbach> Yes.
 823 2014-06-15 14:53:34 <michagogo> Not without an extension also?
 824 2014-06-15 14:53:36 <aschildbach> No other files.
 825 2014-06-15 14:53:43 <michagogo> Okay, so you're using KVM, not lxc
 826 2014-06-15 14:53:51 <wumpus> aschildbach: if you get the on-target error, you can usually find a more detailed error in var/build.log or var/install.log
 827 2014-06-15 14:54:01 <wumpus> michagogo: no, haven't looked yet
 828 2014-06-15 14:54:51 <aschildbach> I just rebooted and now it gets beyond the "Checking if target is up" point.
 829 2014-06-15 14:54:52 <michagogo> wumpus: well, when I looked it appeared that that was the case -- I'm guessing it has to do with the unclean VM, but something else could be wrong
 830 2014-06-15 14:56:49 <wumpus> michagogo: according to my gverify all three osx builds match
 831 2014-06-15 14:57:08 <michagogo> Eh? Maybe I was looking at something wrong
 832 2014-06-15 14:57:25 * michagogo rechecks
 833 2014-06-15 14:57:46 <wumpus> hm you're right, gavin's is different
 834 2014-06-15 14:58:00 <michagogo>     150050f674bf1da503c5a165bf58e51154350b188b050d31e0e30c3379eb08d5  Bitcoin-Qt.dmg
 835 2014-06-15 14:58:05 <michagogo>     c1a8d18648b65e2e1c848884c65fda3a0f490812a02757681ac0deb9084944d4  Bitcoin-Qt.dmg
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 838 2014-06-15 15:00:46 <wumpus> oh, right, gverify doesn't tack on the -win/-osx automatically
 839 2014-06-15 15:02:11 <michagogo> http://www.diffnow.com/?report=9nbpc <-- On the right here we can see what he has installed that we (I) don't
 840 2014-06-15 15:02:43 * michagogo wonders if he posted his dmg somewhere for comparison
 841 2014-06-15 15:09:34 <aschildbach> strange, after rebooting not even the error msg appears
 842 2014-06-15 15:09:50 <aschildbach> michagogo: Compared to 0.9.1, which deps do I have to rebuild?
 843 2014-06-15 15:10:23 <michagogo> aschildbach: maybe compare https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs/blob/master/0.9.2/michagogo/bitcoin-build.assert to https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs/blob/master/0.9.1/michagogo/bitcoin-build.assert
 844 2014-06-15 15:11:26 <michagogo> Looks like just deps
 845 2014-06-15 15:11:39 <michagogo> (for win and linux. OS X is everything, because it wasn't around in 0.9.1)
 846 2014-06-15 15:11:50 <michagogo> Oh, and there's also qt linux
 847 2014-06-15 15:11:57 <michagogo> (which isn't really a full build of qt)
 848 2014-06-15 15:14:16 <aschildbach> Yeah I'm just building qt
 849 2014-06-15 15:14:48 <michagogo> So for OS X, it's everything, for Windows it's deps, and for Linux it's deps and qt
 850 2014-06-15 15:15:05 <michagogo> (which is really just the headers and a couple tools, IIRC)
 851 2014-06-15 15:15:53 <aschildbach> I assume I cannot build the OSX stuff on Linux, right?
 852 2014-06-15 15:18:05 <michagogo> Yes, you can
 853 2014-06-15 15:18:08 <michagogo> That's the whole point
 854 2014-06-15 15:18:19 <michagogo> Linux, OS X, and Windows are all built in the Linux VMs
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 856 2014-06-15 15:18:43 <michagogo> Just one caveat for the OS X build -- you need an SDK from Apple
 857 2014-06-15 15:18:58 <michagogo> And it requires a Mac to get at the moment
 858 2014-06-15 15:19:17 <michagogo> (you download Xcode from their site, and then extract the SDK from there to copy to your Linux box)
 859 2014-06-15 15:19:27 ionstorm has joined
 860 2014-06-15 15:19:28 <michagogo> (Or someone can illegally give you a copy of it)
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 864 2014-06-15 15:25:17 <aschildbach> Well ok no mac for me.
 865 2014-06-15 15:25:28 <aschildbach> But I will build Windows if that's possible.
 866 2014-06-15 15:25:49 <aschildbach> michagogo: Problem, my qt-linux hashes are differnt from the ones listed in the release readme.
 867 2014-06-15 15:25:56 <aschildbach> Is this a known problem?
 868 2014-06-15 15:26:11 <michagogo> aschildbach: I think wumpus said it was fine -- SomeoneWeird was reporting the same iirc
 869 2014-06-15 15:26:55 <aschildbach> So which one is right?
 870 2014-06-15 15:27:13 <aschildbach> SomeoneWeird: ping
 871 2014-06-15 15:28:16 <michagogo> aschildbach: it doesn't matter that it's different
 872 2014-06-15 15:28:35 <michagogo> Assuming wumpus is right, it won't affect the end result
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 875 2014-06-15 15:33:22 <wumpus> aschildbach: yes that's a known issue, it's not a problem
 876 2014-06-15 15:34:09 <wumpus> aschildbach: the qt-linux dependency hash is different based on the day it is built, this was fixed later but the commit didn't make it into 0.9.2, but it doesn't affect the end result
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 882 2014-06-15 15:40:32 <GAit> sipa: you pointed me to some proposal of yours (or perhaps just hosted by you) about an improvement over what BIP39 does to make brain wallets harder, I can't find the proposal anymore, do you have the link around?
 883 2014-06-15 15:41:01 <GAit> you said you wanted to make it a BIP eventually
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 899 2014-06-15 16:00:29 <btc123> peter todd's treechains are the top post on /r/bitcoin
 900 2014-06-15 16:00:49 <btc123> just wanted to stop by and see what peoples thoughts are on it?
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 907 2014-06-15 16:04:22 <GAit> btc123: as far as I understand it it can be said it has a lot of potential but also that it still is half-balked
 908 2014-06-15 16:06:05 <btc123> i like the fact that someone can mine a low-diff chain and still receive a small coinbase reward, it removes the need for pools
 909 2014-06-15 16:07:31 <btc123> on that note, i was a little shocked at Gavin's post -- he at bare mininmum could have suggested that miners move to P2Pool as an interim solution if they are worried.  At best, the foundation should release a statement encouragingin people to do so....
 910 2014-06-15 16:08:31 <wumpus> isn't it common knowledge for a long time people should move to P2Pool?
 911 2014-06-15 16:08:44 <michagogo> ;;blocks
 912 2014-06-15 16:08:45 <gribble> 305963
 913 2014-06-15 16:08:46 <btc123> wumpus: suprisingly, no, it isn't
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 915 2014-06-15 16:08:49 <Apocalyptic> it's not for everyone wumpus
 916 2014-06-15 16:08:54 <michagogo> ;;tslb
 917 2014-06-15 16:08:57 <gribble> Time since last block: 5 minutes and 53 seconds
 918 2014-06-15 16:09:01 <Apocalyptic> sometimes it helps to state the obvious
 919 2014-06-15 16:09:05 <michagogo> Heh, for some reason my node thinks it's behind
 920 2014-06-15 16:09:15 <wumpus> I mean this discussion has been going for what, four years?
 921 2014-06-15 16:09:23 <michagogo> Oh, nvm
 922 2014-06-15 16:09:31 <michagogo> Forgot I was messing with the system clock
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 924 2014-06-15 16:09:39 <dsnrk> wumpus: miners still think joining the biggest pool gets them the most profit..
 925 2014-06-15 16:09:41 <Apocalyptic> discussion among devs and technical people does not reach all the miners
 926 2014-06-15 16:09:58 <btc123> wumpus: and if the intelligence of these miners is evaluated by their decisions to purchase cloud-mining CEX.io contracts that are guaranteed to lose them money, -- then you can be rest assured people have no fucking clue
 927 2014-06-15 16:10:29 <Apocalyptic> anyway such statement coming from Gavin cannot hurt
 928 2014-06-15 16:10:32 <wumpus> anyhow: yes, you should switch to P2Pool for mining
 929 2014-06-15 16:10:58 <wumpus> today!
 930 2014-06-15 16:11:22 <dsnrk> p2pool is a pain to run really. I'm wasting a whole box that could be doing other things.
 931 2014-06-15 16:11:25 <btc123> Apocalyptic: which is why i'm wondering why he didn't do it. lack of leadership imo.
 932 2014-06-15 16:11:36 <wumpus> Gavin isn't your leader
 933 2014-06-15 16:11:38 <btc123> dsnrk: there are free gateway nodes
 934 2014-06-15 16:11:52 <btc123> wumpus:  leadership != lader
 935 2014-06-15 16:11:55 <wumpus> a distributed network doesn't have a leader and it doesn't need a leader
 936 2014-06-15 16:11:56 <btc123> leader*
 937 2014-06-15 16:12:05 <btc123> you don't need to be a leader to display leadership
 938 2014-06-15 16:12:30 <dsnrk> btc123: I'm not going to give my hashpower to anybody running a p2pool node. how do I know they're not going to steal or skim?
 939 2014-06-15 16:12:53 <btc123> displaying leadership, however, is good for everyone if the result is that people switch to P2Pools. Gavin has the ability to make that happen.  Not making a statement shows a lack of leadership for someone in his position at the foundation.
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 941 2014-06-15 16:13:46 <hearn> dsnrk: how expensive is that box?
 942 2014-06-15 16:13:50 <btc123> dsnrk: alright, i'll set you up a vps for a year. cost will be a fraction of the money you lose everytime the price crashes when a pool goes to 50%
 943 2014-06-15 16:14:00 <hearn> dsnrk: i mean, surely your asic rigs are more expensive than the computer generating the work
 944 2014-06-15 16:14:08 <btc123> bithost.io and chunkhost.com -- $5 a month vps's
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 946 2014-06-15 16:14:32 <dsnrk> hearn: amusingly enough, no, the rig controlling them is worth more than the ASIC hardware.
 947 2014-06-15 16:14:53 <hearn> btc123: i've started talking to saivann and david harding, the guys behind the bitcoin.org developer guide, about maybe creating a mining section on bitcoin.org
 948 2014-06-15 16:14:56 <btc123> bithost.io even has an image with bitcoind fully loaded. setup time is mininmal and you only need to do it once
 949 2014-06-15 16:14:58 <hearn> where we could put "official" advice
 950 2014-06-15 16:15:11 <btc123> hearn: that would be great!
 951 2014-06-15 16:15:11 <hearn> tips, news, etc
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 954 2014-06-15 16:15:29 <dsnrk> btc123: I can't imagine the latency would be at all favourable for me.
 955 2014-06-15 16:15:33 <buZz> official tips? :D
 956 2014-06-15 16:15:35 <hearn> btc123: well it needs someone to volunteer basically. as none of the rest of us know much about mining. plus there's everyone is currently maxed with their existing projects
 957 2014-06-15 16:15:50 <hearn> btc123: we'll probably kick the idea around a bit more and then maybe i'll make a call for volunteers
 958 2014-06-15 16:16:06 <btc123> hearn: you might want to talk to the guys in #bithost -- i bet they'd be willing to put up ubuntu images with a p2pool already setup, with 1-click installs
 959 2014-06-15 16:16:10 <hearn> dsnrk: how many hashes/sec are you doing then? i thought asics were costing thousands of dollars at a minimum
 960 2014-06-15 16:16:18 <btc123> hearn: i'd be happy to help, i usually idle in here
 961 2014-06-15 16:16:34 <dsnrk> hearn: you can pick up a new S1 (180GH/s)  shipped to your door for about $200US.
 962 2014-06-15 16:16:40 <btc123> hearn: he's making a joke -- they depreciate so quickly
 963 2014-06-15 16:16:59 <btc123> my avalon batch 1&2's are already scrap metal
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 965 2014-06-15 16:17:06 <hearn> see, i said i didn't know much about mining :)
 966 2014-06-15 16:17:11 <dsnrk> hearn: I'm pulling about 1TH all told. the rig running p2pool is worth about double that.
 967 2014-06-15 16:17:39 <hearn> you mean the computer? it shouldn't require a very powerful computer, i'd hope ... it's just running p2pool + core, right?
 968 2014-06-15 16:17:56 <hearn> btc123: could you join https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/bitcoin-documentation and jump in? that's where the existing dev guide work is done
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 970 2014-06-15 16:19:08 <dsnrk> hearn: it's overpowered for the job, but you really need some horsepower to run p2pool. p2pool chews a terrible lot of memory. compare it with a small ARM processor board that could handle GBT just fine and you can see why more people don't use it.
 971 2014-06-15 16:19:21 <hearn> because it's written in python?
 972 2014-06-15 16:19:37 <buZz> because its written in academic style
 973 2014-06-15 16:19:46 <buZz> which is horrible, but gets the work done ;)
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 975 2014-06-15 16:22:36 <btc123> hearn: any thoughts on treechains (from peter, your favorite person ;)?
 976 2014-06-15 16:23:00 <hearn> i only scan read the proposal. that's the one where he wants to have some complicated sharding scheme?
 977 2014-06-15 16:23:05 <dsnrk> hearn: if I could run the thing on a small dedicated board like a cubieboard or odroid I wouldn't care so much. it is fairly resource intensive though, and the difficulty is sky high. the minimum share diff is 1.6M at the moment.
 978 2014-06-15 16:23:16 <maaku> i've thought that a p2pool rewritten in erlang would be much more performant
 979 2014-06-15 16:23:18 <hearn> dsnrk: right. there need to be multiple p2pool networks
 980 2014-06-15 16:23:23 <btc123> hearn: yeah, thats it
 981 2014-06-15 16:23:25 <maaku> i don't know where we'd find someone to do that though
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 983 2014-06-15 16:24:06 <maaku> treechains + p2pool would solve the share size problem though
 984 2014-06-15 16:24:14 <btc123> hearn: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2872z8/peter_todds_treechains_and_the_end_of_mining_pools/
 985 2014-06-15 16:24:25 <hearn> btc123: honestly, i didn't think about it much so i don't have a useful opinion. the whole thing seemed rooted in the idea that bitcoin doesn't scale, an idea peter has been pushing for years and i don't agree with. but at any rate, scalability is the least of our concerns right now ....
 986 2014-06-15 16:24:27 <maaku> use treechains for the p2pool share chain
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 988 2014-06-15 16:25:04 <btc123> peter has lots of fanboys on reddit, but he also does come across as abbrasive unfortunately, because i think he has good insight to offer
 989 2014-06-15 16:25:46 <hearn> it sounds like the problem with p2pool is not so much the current structure, as an inefficient implementation and the fact that p2pool needs to auto-split, amoeba style, to keep share difficulty under control
 990 2014-06-15 16:25:54 <btc123> hearn: i'd agree -- scalability wil be a concern a year from now if more companies add it
 991 2014-06-15 16:25:55 <maaku> btc123: tree chains (on bitcoin) come with horrible tradeoffs -- e.g. lack of SPV mode
 992 2014-06-15 16:25:57 <hearn> also i'd like to see more info and tutorials on how to use getblocktemplate with local selection of block contents
 993 2014-06-15 16:26:01 <hearn> maybe such tutorials already exist!
 994 2014-06-15 16:26:09 <hearn> but i don't seem to be able to find good info on them
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 996 2014-06-15 16:26:41 <hearn> btc123: no i doubt it. not unless we find a way to incentivise bitcoin usage by *buyers* not just sellers
 997 2014-06-15 16:27:00 * hearn has some ideas on this topic
 998 2014-06-15 16:27:05 <wumpus> in a way that's good, you'd say an inefficient implementation is easier to improve than structural  problems
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1000 2014-06-15 16:27:21 <btc123> buyers meaning?
1001 2014-06-15 16:27:27 <hearn> but even so - quadrupling usage, traffic wise, would be an amazing accomplishment, and still only get us up to our entirely self imposed limit
1002 2014-06-15 16:27:32 <hearn> buyers meaning ... people who buy things
1003 2014-06-15 16:27:44 <dsnrk> hearn: well as it stands I've already set up my GBT proxy so I can get away from p2pool. I'm generally fairly accepting of crappy software but it's just taking up too much space for me.
1004 2014-06-15 16:27:49 <hearn> lots of companies are signing up to accept bitcoin right now because it's a win/win situation for them. buyers, not so much.
1005 2014-06-15 16:27:56 <maaku> btc123: treechains is not the only solution out there though. there is also e.g. (u)txo commitments, which allow storageless mining
1006 2014-06-15 16:28:00 <btc123> hearn: egifter offers 6% off from walmart and amazon i think
1007 2014-06-15 16:28:01 <hearn> dsnrk: how does your proxy work?
1008 2014-06-15 16:28:05 <maaku> without giving up SPV mode
1009 2014-06-15 16:28:31 <btc123> interesting, where can i find more info on that?
1010 2014-06-15 16:28:44 <hearn> btc123: yes indeed, but in the past small %age savings on each tx were not enough to shift the boat away from credit cards en masse. however, that said, we have another shot at it :) i got bitpay and coinbase to agree to implement a new BIP70 extension to let wallets know about and therefore add up/record the size of the discounts users are getting
1011 2014-06-15 16:29:05 <hearn> so wallet apps can show you how much you saved by using bitcoin and maybe even suggest things you could buy with the saved money :)
1012 2014-06-15 16:29:14 <btc123> hearn: brilliant -- i like it
1013 2014-06-15 16:29:28 <dsnrk> hearn: small but reasonably powerful ARM processor board with BFGminer set up to proxy stratum<>GBT with eligius. means my antminers can get the connection they need (stratum) but I can still control things a bit better. I've not tried it under load yet though. if it fails I'll just go back to a normal pool with stratum.
1014 2014-06-15 16:30:00 <hearn> ok. are you selecting your own transactions? or just taking whatever eligius gives
1015 2014-06-15 16:30:23 benrcole has joined
1016 2014-06-15 16:30:29 <dsnrk> haven't got to that bit yet. I intend to if the board doesn't set on fire under the load.
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1018 2014-06-15 16:30:39 <btc123> hearn: bitpay/coinbase should also tell merchants to follow best practices -- telling their customers that they'll save x% by paying with bitcoin
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1021 2014-06-15 16:31:08 <dsnrk> (currently I reject all transactions that spend uncompressed keys.. because why not?)
1022 2014-06-15 16:32:37 <michagogo> aschildbach: Nice, thanks.
1023 2014-06-15 16:32:46 <michagogo> (looks like a match for those 2, at least)
1024 2014-06-15 16:33:00 <aschildbach> Sure, I'll do what I can (-:
1025 2014-06-15 16:33:37 <aschildbach> I wish this gitian process would be more like a "make". Run once, do everything automatically.
1026 2014-06-15 16:34:42 <maaku> aschildbach: I made a PR for that once. got rejected
1027 2014-06-15 16:34:49 <hearn> dsnrk: er .... why not?
1028 2014-06-15 16:34:58 <hearn> dsnrk: because if you drop them from your mempool that makes you into a tool for double spending
1029 2014-06-15 16:35:10 <michagogo> aschildbach: Yeah, the whole process could use improvements
1030 2014-06-15 16:35:12 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Exit())
1031 2014-06-15 16:35:22 <michagogo> e.g. telling it to put the output files somewhere specific
1032 2014-06-15 16:35:24 <hearn> dsnrk: you can accept them into ram and not include them into blocks, but that's kind of dumb.... better to push for banning of them during a forking change one day
1033 2014-06-15 16:35:39 <michagogo> Gitian's all ruby and bash, so...
1034 2014-06-15 16:35:41 <hearn> btc123: coinbase at least already s
1035 2014-06-15 16:35:44 <hearn> oops, already is
1036 2014-06-15 16:35:47 <michagogo> feel free to fix it :P
1037 2014-06-15 16:35:51 <netg_> AFAIK its not allowed for an merchant to promote other payment methods over credit cards (at least in germany its forbidden in the acceptance contracts with the payment service provider, merchants will get warnings, penalties or even lose card acceptance if they do)
1038 2014-06-15 16:36:12 <hearn> netg_: yes. in the USA those contracts have been struck down by the courts however.
1039 2014-06-15 16:36:18 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1040 2014-06-15 16:36:19 <maaku> netg_: that would be illegal here
1041 2014-06-15 16:36:31 <hearn> not sure what the current status is in europe. once there's real competition i think we'll start to see regulatory action on that kind of thing as it's so blatantly anti-competitive
1042 2014-06-15 16:36:52 <btc123> hearn: long live AMERICA land of the free ;)
1043 2014-06-15 16:37:00 <dsnrk> hearn: the chance of my p2pool node solving a block is hilariously low. I would bet against me ever solving a block in fact. ,,(gentime 1000000)
1044 2014-06-15 16:37:01 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 11756551916.9, is 1 year, 31 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 19 minutes, and 36 seconds
1045 2014-06-15 16:37:05 <hearn> heh
1046 2014-06-15 16:37:22 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
1047 2014-06-15 16:37:31 <hearn> dsnrk: good point. though i guess it's the principle that counts? :)
1048 2014-06-15 16:37:33 <kadoban> hearn: If he rejects spends of uncompressed keys, wouldn't he also reject double-spends of the same or does it not work like that?
1049 2014-06-15 16:37:57 <maaku> kadoban: could be multiple inputs
1050 2014-06-15 16:38:06 <maaku> some compressed, some not
1051 2014-06-15 16:38:16 <kadoban> Ahh, yes. Thanks
1052 2014-06-15 16:38:24 <dsnrk> hearn: maybe. it does annoy me that pretty much no client uses compressed keys.
1053 2014-06-15 16:38:30 <hearn> dsnrk: AFAIK they all do?
1054 2014-06-15 16:38:34 <dsnrk> haha, nope
1055 2014-06-15 16:38:34 <GAit> kadoban: so including an ucompressed gives an edge in double spending?
1056 2014-06-15 16:38:37 <hearn> dsnrk: bitcoinj has been using compressed keys for ages
1057 2014-06-15 16:38:41 <hearn> dsnrk: bitcoin core too
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1059 2014-06-15 16:38:47 <hearn> which wallets don't use point compression?
1060 2014-06-15 16:38:48 <dsnrk> hearn: Electrum doesn't, bc.i doesn't
1061 2014-06-15 16:39:08 <hearn> electrum doesn't? oh, huh. that surprises me. it's usually pretty advanced.
1062 2014-06-15 16:39:13 <hearn> however it's certainly not "pretty much no client"
1063 2014-06-15 16:39:28 <dsnrk> I honestly didn't think MultiBit used compressed keys either.
1064 2014-06-15 16:39:35 <hearn> yes, it has done for a long time, as does hive, android wallet, etc
1065 2014-06-15 16:39:45 <hearn> so are you sure your info about other wallets is right? :)
1066 2014-06-15 16:40:08 <dsnrk> yes, I exported private keys from both and looked at the version byte.
1067 2014-06-15 16:40:48 <maaku> dsnrk: once you create a key, it'll always be compressed or uncompressed. how old was the key you exported?
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1069 2014-06-15 16:41:16 <dsnrk> both brand new, I don't use either client.
1070 2014-06-15 16:41:50 <GAit> dsnrk: was the nope to me?
1071 2014-06-15 16:42:19 <dsnrk> hearn: I have verified that I was incorrect for MultiBit.
1072 2014-06-15 16:42:43 <dsnrk> GAit: no, I never checked yours, I assumed it would be right.
1073 2014-06-15 16:43:10 <hearn> i hope one day we can introduce a transaction version 2 spec and fix a lot of these small things
1074 2014-06-15 16:43:40 <dsnrk> just downloaded the latest Electrum, can confirm it does not use compressed keys. neither does Armory.
1075 2014-06-15 16:43:44 <hearn> if there's a v2 with a clear list of requirements then supporting it becomes a "project"
1076 2014-06-15 16:43:56 <GAit> hearn: we still need to allow old tx with nlocktime at the very least
1077 2014-06-15 16:44:52 <hearn> dsnrk: yes that's disappointing. however, except for b.i those wallets do not have huge userbases:  http://media.coindesk.com/2014/05/Screen-Shot-2014-05-28-at-11.59.49-AM.png
1078 2014-06-15 16:44:52 <dsnrk> Electrum, bc.i, Armory all don't use compressed keys. surely that's a large portion of all spends.
1079 2014-06-15 16:44:58 <hearn> GAit: sure, txv1 would still work
1080 2014-06-15 16:45:27 <hearn> dsnrk: i don't know many people who use armory except for specialised cases, because of its resource usage. electrum user figures are IIRC about 15x lower than multibit
1081 2014-06-15 16:45:55 <hearn> dsnrk: but it'd be interesting to gather stats. i suspect whether dice sites and pool payout software use them dominates all other factors.
1082 2014-06-15 16:47:35 <dsnrk> hearn: I'm not sure I really have much faith in CoinDesks surveys.
1083 2014-06-15 16:47:54 <hearn> it's not based on survey data but rather self reported user numbers, based on e.g. accounts registered and server pings
1084 2014-06-15 16:47:58 <hearn> and downloads
1085 2014-06-15 16:50:14 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1086 2014-06-15 16:50:57 <dsnrk> well I don't know then.
1087 2014-06-15 16:51:51 <dsnrk> at any rate there's still a crazy number of uncompressed outputs when there's really no need for it to happen at all. it's optimisation for almost free.
1088 2014-06-15 16:52:35 <hearn> yeah. the graph i linked shows user numbers (actually downloads/wallet openings by users, not quite the same), but tx traffic can be dominated by only a handful, e.g. dice sites
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1090 2014-06-15 16:52:57 <hearn> over time what i'm hoping we'll see is that people consolidate wallets around a handful of well maintained libraries
1091 2014-06-15 16:53:06 <hearn> one of which i hope will be bitcoinj (it's going that way at the moment)
1092 2014-06-15 16:53:16 <hearn> then a lot of these fiddly details will get handled and wallet authors can focus on differentiating features
1093 2014-06-15 16:54:14 cbeams has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1094 2014-06-15 16:54:19 <hearn> btw just to put bitcoin's low need for scalability tricks in perspective: http://crypto-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/0cd60__N9NStPw.png
1095 2014-06-15 16:54:22 <daybyter> more java libs please...
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1097 2014-06-15 16:55:15 <hearn> eventually we might want to get more aggressive about hard-forking out suboptimal behaviour. but we can't really do much when miners don't even upgrade to 0.9 and don't discuss what block policies they have
1098 2014-06-15 16:55:19 <hearn> fixing that has to come first
1099 2014-06-15 16:55:55 <hearn> anyway. time to play games for a bit. bitcoin is now work, so, not gonna do any more this weekend
1100 2014-06-15 16:57:06 <daybyter> play a coin game and combine play and work... :-)
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1103 2014-06-15 17:02:37 <chichov> could it be that many miners skip/ignore transactions with OP_RETURN outputs?
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1133 2014-06-15 17:30:44 <aschildbach> Is the biteasy dev around? I can't remember his IRC nick.
1134 2014-06-15 17:30:48 Gyps has joined
1135 2014-06-15 17:31:30 <aschildbach> hearn: I was already going to ask if you decided to not do Bitcoin stuff on Sundays (-:
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1145 2014-06-15 17:37:01 <hearn> aschildbach: damethos
1146 2014-06-15 17:37:14 <aschildbach> Thanks
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1156 2014-06-15 18:01:44 <ShawnLeary> Happy Father's Day!
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1210 2014-06-15 19:21:33 <elichai2> hey, after how much blocks it's need to be seen in 'getinfo'? ('testnet-in-a-box')
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1220 2014-06-15 19:36:59 <christophe> ;seen jgarzik
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1222 2014-06-15 19:38:15 <christophe> ;;seen jgarzik
1223 2014-06-15 19:38:15 <gribble> jgarzik was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 16 hours, 46 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <jgarzik> Rather than rawtx, perhaps the tool should be "bitcoin-tx" to be a bit more friendly to the global /usr/bin binary namespace.
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1247 2014-06-15 20:15:20 <jgarzik> christophe, idle or not, I am omnipresent
1248 2014-06-15 20:18:17 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, lold
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1254 2014-06-15 20:28:12 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, have you attempted to add support for stealth addresses to bitcoin core?
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1262 2014-06-15 20:46:18 <pigeons> are "stealth addresses" compatible with sendmany/multiple outputs with a "standard" (1 OP_RETURN) transaction?
1263 2014-06-15 20:48:02 <phantomcircuit> pigeons, you need 1 OP_RETURN output per output
1264 2014-06-15 20:48:17 <phantomcircuit> that wasn't very clear but i think you'll get it...
1265 2014-06-15 20:48:45 <pigeons> yeah. so really one transaction per stealth address unless you have someone to mine them?
1266 2014-06-15 20:49:42 <pigeons> so in some cases potentially trading a little size for some privacy i guess
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1270 2014-06-15 20:54:20 <phantomcircuit> pigeons, i suspect there is a way to change that
1271 2014-06-15 20:54:43 <phantomcircuit> but iirc you cant use the same parameter for multiple public keys
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1291 2014-06-15 21:11:13 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: not yet - I still need to get a chance to sit down for a day or two and finish off my stealth-address-reference-implementation
1292 2014-06-15 21:11:56 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: for sending though it should be pretty easy; receiving harder
1293 2014-06-15 21:12:32 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, im only interested in sending
1294 2014-06-15 21:12:34 <phantomcircuit> (for now)
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1296 2014-06-15 21:12:50 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: cool, that makes it easier
1297 2014-06-15 21:12:51 <phantomcircuit> well except i guess receiving would have to be easy also
1298 2014-06-15 21:13:15 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, im thinking a shared web wallet in which there is a maximum balance and the difference is automatically returned
1299 2014-06-15 21:13:18 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: receiving for a full node isn't all that bad, and bitcoin core's "just a bunch of keys" wallet would make live easy
1300 2014-06-15 21:13:25 <phantomcircuit> but wouldn't want to use a static return address for that
1301 2014-06-15 21:13:27 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: oh, interesting, what for?
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1303 2014-06-15 21:13:38 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, POC
1304 2014-06-15 21:13:43 <petertodd> ?
1305 2014-06-15 21:14:00 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, off chain transactions for trivial value transfers
1306 2014-06-15 21:14:05 <phantomcircuit> ie you want to buy coffee
1307 2014-06-15 21:14:12 <petertodd> ah I see, that's pretty reasonable
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1309 2014-06-15 21:15:07 <petertodd> note btw that micropayment channels for those types of services appear to always be the better solution, in that you might as well setup a uC payment channel between you and the service, and give them micropayments as you get them to send others moeny on your behalf
1310 2014-06-15 21:15:18 <petertodd> (always modulo the time value of money that is)
1311 2014-06-15 21:16:45 <phantomcircuit> [Thread 0x7fffaffff700 (LWP 8934) exited]
1312 2014-06-15 21:16:45 <phantomcircuit> *** Error in `bitcoin/src/bitcoind': munmap_chunk(): invalid pointer: 0x0000000000a2e430 ***
1313 2014-06-15 21:16:59 <phantomcircuit> i wonder which thread that is
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1321 2014-06-15 21:23:46 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, the issue there is that the business is then dependent on customers being up/active to send bitcoins to others on the businesses behalf
1322 2014-06-15 21:24:02 <phantomcircuit> that might work at scale, but boot strapping it would be difficult
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1324 2014-06-15 21:24:15 <phantomcircuit> (or maybe im wrong on that)
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1333 2014-06-15 21:31:10 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: I had similar feedback from another business looking at doing micropayment channels too - it's an interesting business problem that's not unlike a bank
1334 2014-06-15 21:31:19 lezzit has joined
1335 2014-06-15 21:31:29 <petertodd> dunno what's the right solution there, basically a cost of security vs. tx fees
1336 2014-06-15 21:32:23 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, lets say everybody in the us leaves $100 on some micro payments service, which wont even let them leave more than that
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1338 2014-06-15 21:32:55 <lezzit> does nayone here work at twitter
1339 2014-06-15 21:32:56 <phantomcircuit> that's about $30b
1340 2014-06-15 21:33:00 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: yup
1341 2014-06-15 21:33:07 <phantomcircuit> that's a pretty small bank
1342 2014-06-15 21:33:16 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: lol, very true!
1343 2014-06-15 21:33:32 <petertodd> and you've still saved a lot of fes
1344 2014-06-15 21:33:33 <skinnkavaj> Someone update update bitcoin.org and replace "decentralized" with "controlled by a few mining pool operators"?
1345 2014-06-15 21:33:35 <petertodd> *fees
1346 2014-06-15 21:33:44 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, yup
1347 2014-06-15 21:33:47 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: heh, good idea
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1349 2014-06-15 21:35:32 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: would make for an interesting business model too, as while the customers can have total security because it's u-payment channels, you would also have depositors giving up their bitcoins in exchange for a cut of the tx fees saved
1350 2014-06-15 21:36:13 Gnaf has quit (Quit: Recht is dood in Rotterdam. De stad luistert een half miljoen burgers in hun huishouden af en misbruikt deze info om burgers al meer dan 13 jaar te stalken en lastig te vallen (dagelijks) dmv misbruik publieke diensten. Recht zonder rechters en/of advoca)
1351 2014-06-15 21:36:15 Andymeows has joined
1352 2014-06-15 21:36:17 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: equally of course someone running the service is basically making money off their bitcoins
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1357 2014-06-15 21:37:10 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, yes
1358 2014-06-15 21:37:20 Guest26052 is now known as Khayman
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1363 2014-06-15 21:41:39 <paavo> petertodd: when did you start working on dev team?
1364 2014-06-15 21:41:47 <paavo> *paid
1365 2014-06-15 21:41:55 <christophe> jgarzik: Good to know. I was just wondering what the state of https://github.com/jgarzik/picocoin is. Is it stable or close enough to it that I can build a project on top? For now it's just an experiment, but ideally I don't want to rewrite it if it proves worthwhile.
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1367 2014-06-15 21:42:17 <sipa> wumpus: feel like merging bitcoin/secp256k1 #28? don't have access to my gpg key here
1368 2014-06-15 21:42:35 <petertodd> paavo: hard to define - I got my first contract to do bitcoin related stuff with the litecoin audit last year, quit my day job last feburary
1369 2014-06-15 21:43:21 Khayman is now known as Hasimir
1370 2014-06-15 21:43:22 <petertodd> paavo: oh, and actually, even earlier than that was a bounty from jdillion that I collected
1371 2014-06-15 21:44:12 <paavo> ah just curious. seems you were very vocal about selling your coins. was wondering if you had experienced any of the difficult times in the past hard forks etc
1372 2014-06-15 21:44:31 <petertodd> paavo: well I've owned bitcoins for quite a bit longer than that
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1374 2014-06-15 21:44:54 <sipa> there have not been "hard forks" :)
1375 2014-06-15 21:44:56 <sipa> (just one)
1376 2014-06-15 21:44:57 <Luke-Jr> petertodd is vocal about selling bitcoins? huh?
1377 2014-06-15 21:45:16 <Luke-Jr> sipa: well, there have been many afaik.. just not many recently ;P
1378 2014-06-15 21:45:17 <paavo> well i meant hard-fork other 51% moments
1379 2014-06-15 21:45:23 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i know of only one
1380 2014-06-15 21:45:27 <paavo> various panic moments
1381 2014-06-15 21:45:39 <paavo> not any particular moment
1382 2014-06-15 21:45:41 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I'm thinking back when it was just Satoshi and Sirius
1383 2014-06-15 21:45:55 <petertodd> paavo: 51%'s haven't been worrying before - the pools didn't own much of their hashing power, ghash.io has physical control of 25% of the network
1384 2014-06-15 21:45:58 <sipa> Luke-Jr: even then, i know of none (but i don't know the entire history, so it's possible)
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1386 2014-06-15 21:46:22 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: actually if you look at the early day stuff they're almost all soft-forks
1387 2014-06-15 21:46:31 <paavo> luke-jr: he posted a front page r/bitcoin post about selling 50% of his coins
1388 2014-06-15 21:46:39 <sipa> the op_return bug was a softfork in any case
1389 2014-06-15 21:47:05 <petertodd> paavo: keep in mind my financial situation is different than many... not too many people have 100% of their income from bitcoin-related stuff
1390 2014-06-15 21:47:06 <Luke-Jr> paavo: he can't make it front page. that's reddit's fault :p
1391 2014-06-15 21:47:16 <cfields> wumpus: any chance you're still around?
1392 2014-06-15 21:47:47 <paavo> i know, im simply stating that vocalizing personal financial decisions carries weight among devs
1393 2014-06-15 21:47:48 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1394 2014-06-15 21:47:57 <paavo> it would be like obama saying "hes cashing out his usd"
1395 2014-06-15 21:48:11 <paavo> he doesnt need to announce
1396 2014-06-15 21:48:23 <SomeoneWeird> Eh
1397 2014-06-15 21:48:39 <sipa> i don't see why you would want to publicly announce what you're doing with your money, unless you want to influence what others do
1398 2014-06-15 21:48:40 <petertodd> paavo: anyway, not a -dev topic
1399 2014-06-15 21:48:46 <sipa> indeed
1400 2014-06-15 21:48:56 <paavo> im not bashing petertodd, im sorry if that seems like attacking
1401 2014-06-15 21:48:59 <Apocalyptic> i'm with sipa here
1402 2014-06-15 21:49:19 <petertodd> sipa: indeed, although I have had legal advice warning me that it can be construed as insider trading too, but end-of-topic
1403 2014-06-15 21:49:27 <paavo> just was odd that you would choose this particular moment to vocalize. perhaps you saw a need to point out the urgency of ghash's situation
1404 2014-06-15 21:50:20 <paavo> and i completely understand not keeping all your wealth in bitcoin, that would be very risky
1405 2014-06-15 21:50:30 Andymeows has joined
1406 2014-06-15 21:50:46 <petertodd> paavo: -> #bitcoin
1407 2014-06-15 21:53:30 <reipr> Hi petertodd. Did you see my port in #bitcoin-wizards?
1408 2014-06-15 21:53:36 <reipr> post*
1409 2014-06-15 21:54:01 <reipr> I had a question about proof of assets, maybe you have some remarks?
1410 2014-06-15 21:54:03 <petertodd> reipr: oh, re proof-of-assets?
1411 2014-06-15 21:54:12 <petertodd> reipr: that's not even a -wizards topic :)
1412 2014-06-15 21:54:13 <reipr> yeah
1413 2014-06-15 21:54:20 <reipr> oh.
1414 2014-06-15 21:54:33 <reipr> I thought that would be the best place, guess not
1415 2014-06-15 21:54:58 <petertodd> reipr: we'd much prefer proof-of-assets be very much a part of bitcoin right now ;)
1416 2014-06-15 21:55:01 btcxpert has quit (Quit: btcxpert)
1417 2014-06-15 21:55:22 <reipr> you mean #bitcoin or bitcoin?
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1421 2014-06-15 21:56:04 <petertodd> reipr: well, #bitcoin-dev. anyway, to answer your question, I think you're on the right track and your idea sounds like my most recent proof-of-assets proposal
1422 2014-06-15 21:56:18 <reipr> ok cool deal.
1423 2014-06-15 21:56:21 <reipr> yay.
1424 2014-06-15 21:56:57 <reipr> can I get a link to that? Id like to look it over
1425 2014-06-15 21:57:25 <petertodd> reipr: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04404.html
1426 2014-06-15 21:57:32 <reipr> thanks man,
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1428 2014-06-15 21:58:20 <reipr> ah yeah, I never finished reading that.
1429 2014-06-15 21:58:26 <reipr> ok have a good day everyone
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1431 2014-06-15 21:58:37 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, the limit on OP_RETURN is one per transaction right?
1432 2014-06-15 21:58:53 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: depends on the miner
1433 2014-06-15 21:58:57 <petertodd> reipr: heh, yeah, didn't get much feedback on it, beyond "great idea!" and "that's so god-damn complex I can't imagine anyone will care enough about privacy to actually implement it", both statements I agree with :P
1434 2014-06-15 21:59:05 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, what is the relay rule?
1435 2014-06-15 21:59:12 <phantomcircuit> (that's actually what i meant)
1436 2014-06-15 21:59:14 <Luke-Jr> depends on the relay node :D
1437 2014-06-15 21:59:18 <phantomcircuit> >.>
1438 2014-06-15 21:59:28 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: yeah, one per tx, which is just silly...
1439 2014-06-15 21:59:29 <phantomcircuit> what is the relay rule in bitcoin core 0.9.2
1440 2014-06-15 21:59:48 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: will cause problems w/ coinjoin and stealth, among many other things
1441 2014-06-15 22:00:01 <phantomcircuit> yeah that's what i was just thinking about
1442 2014-06-15 22:00:04 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: not coinjoin; how stealth?
1443 2014-06-15 22:00:09 <paavo> i've heard there is an eligius vuln
1444 2014-06-15 22:00:14 <paavo> that allows finney attack easily
1445 2014-06-15 22:00:16 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, stealth AND coinjoin is an issue
1446 2014-06-15 22:00:22 <phantomcircuit> since each output needs an OP_RETURN
1447 2014-06-15 22:00:24 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: ^
1448 2014-06-15 22:00:24 <Luke-Jr> paavo: no
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1450 2014-06-15 22:00:29 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: OH
1451 2014-06-15 22:00:32 <Luke-Jr> but
1452 2014-06-15 22:00:32 <phantomcircuit> but more than one is nonstandard
1453 2014-06-15 22:00:41 <Luke-Jr> stealth makes coinjoin nearly pointless?
1454 2014-06-15 22:00:46 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: not at all
1455 2014-06-15 22:00:47 <phantomcircuit> no it doesn't
1456 2014-06-15 22:00:52 <sipa> why does coinjoin need op_return at all?
1457 2014-06-15 22:00:52 <phantomcircuit> they do totally different things
1458 2014-06-15 22:01:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it doesn't stealth does
1459 2014-06-15 22:01:03 <Luke-Jr> sipa: stealth coinjoin
1460 2014-06-15 22:01:06 <sipa> ah
1461 2014-06-15 22:01:08 <sipa> meh
1462 2014-06-15 22:01:20 <phantomcircuit> sipa, coinjoin in which the outputs are stealth addresses
1463 2014-06-15 22:01:28 <petertodd> sipa: stealth needs op_return for many useful properties - it can be implemented without but then you lose said properties
1464 2014-06-15 22:01:30 <phantomcircuit> would currently be a non standard tx
1465 2014-06-15 22:01:48 <Luke-Jr> paavo: finney attacks are easy, if someone is vulnerable. but it's not a vulnerability in pools or miners, it's a vulnerability in people accepting payments improperly
1466 2014-06-15 22:02:04 <sipa> i think stealth addresses are only useful for the case where you don't want any other communication channel with the receiver, so payment protocol is impossible
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1468 2014-06-15 22:02:22 <phantomcircuit> it would be nice to be able to send someone 10 BTC as powers of 2 outputs in a coinjoin using a stealth address as the only piece of payment instruction
1469 2014-06-15 22:02:32 <petertodd> sipa: quite correct, which *is* a frequent situation
1470 2014-06-15 22:02:39 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: please use TBC if you want POT outputs -.-
1471 2014-06-15 22:02:40 <phantomcircuit> w/o stealth you would have to use either HD or have a big long list of addresses
1472 2014-06-15 22:02:52 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i wouldn't call it frequent, but it's certainly a legitimate one
1473 2014-06-15 22:02:56 <sipa> eh, petertodd
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1475 2014-06-15 22:03:19 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it's probably more common than you'd think
1476 2014-06-15 22:03:41 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it's frequent because it's easier.
1477 2014-06-15 22:03:52 <sipa> my worry about stealth addresses is that they may be easier to deploy than proper payment protocol integration
1478 2014-06-15 22:03:55 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it lets people post an address once (I think?)
1479 2014-06-15 22:03:56 <petertodd> sipa: remember stealth came out of amir wanting to have secure person-to-person transactions, me suggested OpenPGP, and then the obvious issue of privacy popped up. our original design was basically hearn's one, before we decided losing payments on occasion was unacceptable
1480 2014-06-15 22:04:05 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, that's correct
1481 2014-06-15 22:04:18 <sipa> Luke-Jr: ideally, it should be 0 :)
1482 2014-06-15 22:04:37 <Luke-Jr> sipa: nevertheless, can't deny it's easy ;)
1483 2014-06-15 22:04:44 <petertodd> sipa: out of curiosity, are you opposed to stealth w/o op_return? because that's easy to do
1484 2014-06-15 22:04:45 disc has left ()
1485 2014-06-15 22:05:02 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: actually, that's probably best
1486 2014-06-15 22:05:20 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: it's less private and completely makes SPV impossible
1487 2014-06-15 22:05:26 <Luke-Jr> it is?
1488 2014-06-15 22:05:38 <Luke-Jr> I was just thinking throwing an extra pushdata in the main output
1489 2014-06-15 22:05:39 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: yes, forces you to reveal your inputs to the recipient
1490 2014-06-15 22:05:58 <sipa> petertodd: i want to the extent possible encourage negotiation of payments before anything bitcoin is involved
1491 2014-06-15 22:06:19 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: oh, that's actually my preference, but I wanted to get it actually deployed rather than going through the <foo> OP_DROP debate all over again
1492 2014-06-15 22:06:41 <petertodd> sipa: amir and I talked about that - negtotiation really is overkill for a *lot* of situations
1493 2014-06-15 22:06:44 <sipa> petertodd: i understand stealth addresses are useful in some case, and i'm not opposed to those (even the op_return ones, if there's a benefit), but i don't want it to be the easier solution that detracts effort from the correct one for the majority of cases
1494 2014-06-15 22:07:05 <Luke-Jr> btw, with stealth addresses, how do you know what you're being paid for?
1495 2014-06-15 22:07:10 <petertodd> sipa: well, remember amir is focused on personal payment stuff w/ dark wallet - e.g. the multisig tools so that groups can manage funds together
1496 2014-06-15 22:07:11 <Luke-Jr> sorry if this is a dumb question
1497 2014-06-15 22:07:15 <sipa> petertodd: for person-to-person transaction i'm sure we can do without
1498 2014-06-15 22:07:25 orperelman has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1499 2014-06-15 22:07:32 <sipa> petertodd: but we'll need deep integration for negatiating transactions for many other use cases anyway
1500 2014-06-15 22:08:17 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: no, it's an excellent one, and I intend to have a few bytes for a per-tx "invoice/account/whatever #" thing - that feature can be added in a "soft-fork" upgrade, and I want to use it to make sure the upgrade process makes sense
1501 2014-06-15 22:08:54 <Luke-Jr> can that be added without increasing data size? :x
1502 2014-06-15 22:08:54 <petertodd> sipa: main issue is that it's very common for negotiation to happen when the other party's wallet isn't online
1503 2014-06-15 22:09:03 <sipa> petertodd: so you need a server that is online
1504 2014-06-15 22:09:05 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: nope
1505 2014-06-15 22:09:08 <sipa> petertodd: emails works too, right?
1506 2014-06-15 22:09:10 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: are you sure?
1507 2014-06-15 22:09:12 <petertodd> sipa: yes, which is a big problem...
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1509 2014-06-15 22:09:25 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: well, you could bodge it with brute forcing stuff, but that gets ugly very fast
1510 2014-06-15 22:09:30 <Luke-Jr> hm
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1512 2014-06-15 22:09:46 <sipa> petertodd: and ECDH-derivation/delegation in the payment protocol means that you could have a presigned message
1513 2014-06-15 22:09:52 <Luke-Jr> sipa: if we deploy RIIs first, that may kill stealth-is-easier?
1514 2014-06-15 22:09:53 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: a few bytes isn't going to kill someone - multisig funds use far more extra space in the chain than stealth does even int he worse
1515 2014-06-15 22:10:09 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: RII's?
1516 2014-06-15 22:10:09 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: multisig is hidden behind P2SH though
1517 2014-06-15 22:10:22 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: recurring invoice ids
1518 2014-06-15 22:10:35 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: stealth is the same thing, and I'm not at all worried about UTXO space right now given TXO commitments
1519 2014-06-15 22:10:38 <sipa> petertodd: though the receiving server could still not disclose the secret afterwards to the actual receiver
1520 2014-06-15 22:10:47 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: BIP 32 xpub
1521 2014-06-15 22:11:09 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, lots of solutions that make things more fragile when servers fail, comms channels fail, etc.
1522 2014-06-15 22:11:14 <sipa> petertodd: TXO commitments are ages away
1523 2014-06-15 22:11:25 <petertodd> sipa: so what? so is utxo space being a big deal
1524 2014-06-15 22:11:42 <sipa> we can't change reality in an instant
1525 2014-06-15 22:11:47 <sipa> yes, utxo space is a big deal
1526 2014-06-15 22:11:56 <sipa> but bitcoin needs time to adapt, in many ways
1527 2014-06-15 22:12:02 <Luke-Jr> sipa: thoughts on having xpub addresses allow selection of a child chain in the Send dialog? :P
1528 2014-06-15 22:12:03 <sipa> and it needs to survive that time too
1529 2014-06-15 22:12:05 <paavo> so this guy in #bitcointraders is claiming he is can easily use eligius pool to finney attack
1530 2014-06-15 22:12:10 btcxpert has quit (Quit: btcxpert)
1531 2014-06-15 22:12:17 <paavo> and everyone is riled up
1532 2014-06-15 22:12:21 <petertodd> sipa: utxo space is only a concern *if* we have utxo commitments so you can securely get your utxo set... at that point we'll have txo commitments anyway
1533 2014-06-15 22:12:24 andytoshi has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1534 2014-06-15 22:12:28 <Luke-Jr> sipa: so people could print their main external xpub, then tell people they are account 5 and use sub chain 5
1535 2014-06-15 22:12:48 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i'd rather not have humans needing to see cryptographic material at all
1536 2014-06-15 22:12:59 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ?
1537 2014-06-15 22:13:13 <petertodd> sipa: if you don't have utxo/txo commitments you can't get the utxo set securely, and you're back to using up a tonne of bandwidth getting the blockchain, which is going to outweigh the utxo space increase even the dumbest stealth implementation would ever give you
1538 2014-06-15 22:13:59 <petertodd> sipa: equally, being naive about people using utxo space when it's useful makes it more likely that we'll do something dumb like implementing utxo commitments w/o implementing a fixed size utxo set and a txo commitment scheme for spending old outputs
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1541 2014-06-15 22:16:59 <sipa> petertodd: i'm much more concerned about not-building-proper-infrastructure-for-out-of-band-payment-negotiation (for the cases where it makes sense) that could result from easy stealth address availability than the resource cost stealth addresses add for the cases where it is the right solution
1542 2014-06-15 22:18:00 <petertodd> sipa: the resources cost money - the infrastructure will be developed to the extent that the cost matters. as for the cost not being enough, that's a flaw in bitcoin that needs to be resolved.
1543 2014-06-15 22:18:52 <sipa> i believe the future is not fixed, and not some optimum that the ecosystem will eventually evolve depending on its needs
1544 2014-06-15 22:19:42 <petertodd> it's a decentralized system with anonymous participants: if doing something "bad" brings them greater benefit, they will do that "bad" thing. deal with it
1545 2014-06-15 22:20:24 <sipa> i believe that the current thinking in people's minds that transactions are payments (and, even worse) addresses are balances is harmful to the ecosystem, because it may well change what the future of the system is, in a way that scales worse
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1547 2014-06-15 22:20:52 <sipa> there are many possible endgames, and which it will end up being is not just a function of what people need, but also of what people think the system is and can do
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1549 2014-06-15 22:21:26 <petertodd> what does "addresses are balances" have to do with anything I'm doing? or "transactions are payments"?
1550 2014-06-15 22:22:04 <sipa> the first doesn't, it was just a stronger but different example, but let's ignore that
1551 2014-06-15 22:22:18 <sipa> by transaction is mean bitcoin transaction on the blockchain
1552 2014-06-15 22:22:35 <sipa> by payment i mean the economic act of transferring value for a particular purpose
1553 2014-06-15 22:22:51 <sipa> the payment protocol is one way in which these are separated from eachother, and that is a good thing
1554 2014-06-15 22:23:00 <sipa> stealth addresses imho reenforce that notion
1555 2014-06-15 22:23:09 Sabbie is now known as sabbie
1556 2014-06-15 22:23:55 <petertodd> meh, people are going to transfer value in a lot of ways, stealth addresses provide an option that meets a set of specific needs - payment protocol meets another set of needs - micropayment channels yet another.
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1558 2014-06-15 22:24:04 <sipa> fully agree with those
1559 2014-06-15 22:24:33 <sipa> for some use cases, stealth addresses are absolutely the best solution
1560 2014-06-15 22:24:44 <petertodd> for that matter, colored coins another set of needs, and embedded consensus systems yet antother...
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1562 2014-06-15 22:25:34 <sipa> what i care about is that stealth addresses don't grow into the solution used for a problem that doesn't require them
1563 2014-06-15 22:26:46 <petertodd> well, that's nice, but a) work on the better solution, and b) keep in mind the overhead of a stealth tx is small fraction of the total tx size
1564 2014-06-15 22:27:09 <sipa> i don't care about the extra cost of a stealth address
1565 2014-06-15 22:27:15 <petertodd> I mean, heck, the <stealth data> op_drop version of it actually has smaller transactions than stealth
1566 2014-06-15 22:27:35 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1567 2014-06-15 22:27:43 <sipa> i care about not building infrastructure that avoids negotiation of transactions
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1571 2014-06-15 22:28:41 <sipa> payment negotiation (as a generalization of the payment protocol) is much further away from how people think about bitcoin now
1572 2014-06-15 22:28:46 knotwork__ is now known as knotwork
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1574 2014-06-15 22:28:55 <sipa> stealth addresses are very close
1575 2014-06-15 22:28:57 <petertodd> well, what do you see that future bitcoin being?
1576 2014-06-15 22:29:09 <sipa> i don't know the future
1577 2014-06-15 22:29:30 <petertodd> heh, well, maybe you shouldn't assume it'll involve negotiation :)
1578 2014-06-15 22:29:59 <sipa> i believe it should :)
1579 2014-06-15 22:30:12 <sipa> at least in the medium long term
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1581 2014-06-15 22:31:24 <petertodd> I'm sure negotiation will be something that can and will be upgradable
1582 2014-06-15 22:31:50 <sipa> sure, and it can happen in many ways
1583 2014-06-15 22:32:26 <sipa> i care less about the actual technology used than about just the availability of some form of it, so it can be used if useful
1584 2014-06-15 22:33:13 <petertodd> payment negotiation strikes me as one of those things thats layered on top of bitcoin, not fundemental to the tech, so there will be plenty of versions of it pop up for different purposes when required
1585 2014-06-15 22:33:14 <sipa> (imho, any case where the receiver knows they'll receive some money from someone they are dealing with)
1586 2014-06-15 22:33:21 <sipa> yes!
1587 2014-06-15 22:33:39 <sipa> it's a layer on top of the technology, but the availability of it is essential to the ecosystem
1588 2014-06-15 22:34:47 <petertodd> ecosystems do well when their diverse, so having stealth to highly target one set of needs is a good thing IMO - we want every potential bitcoin user to think their needs are met by some kind of solution
1589 2014-06-15 22:34:48 <sipa> it not being available makes people think that bitcoin transaction should contain messages, or come up with hacks like green addresses to prove trustworthyness of a transaction, or ask to send specific amounts of a specific address to confirm identity, ...
1590 2014-06-15 22:35:10 <sipa> agree, i'm not saying that stealth addresses shouldn't exist
1591 2014-06-15 22:36:01 <petertodd> I think all those examples just show that better, cheaper, solutions can catch on if they really are better and cheaper without other disadvantages
1592 2014-06-15 22:36:50 <sipa> well, green addresses for example are by no means "cheaper" given existence of technology - they require more transactions, so more fees
1593 2014-06-15 22:37:09 <petertodd> for example I'm fully expecting my ideas for decentralized marketplaces w/ honest pricing for colored coins be mostly ignored in favor of fast and cheap centralized exchanges - but having that option available keeps those exchanges honest
1594 2014-06-15 22:37:45 <sipa> but yes, of course, if technology is not available, and you need the factor in the costs of building infrastructure to do things in a long-term cheaper and more scalable way, the choice is very easy
1595 2014-06-15 22:37:46 <petertodd> sure, and green addresses are being supplanted by a payment protoocol based system (though probably more for privacy reasons)
1596 2014-06-15 22:39:06 <sipa> yup
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1606 2014-06-15 22:50:44 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, nobody ever really used green addresses
1607 2014-06-15 22:51:06 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: I thought there was at least one exchange or something that honored them?
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1609 2014-06-15 22:51:20 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, mtgox would send them but nobody honored them
1610 2014-06-15 22:51:37 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: ah, well, so much for that
1611 2014-06-15 22:52:17 christophe has joined
1612 2014-06-15 22:52:40 <christophe> ;;seen jgarzik
1613 2014-06-15 22:52:41 <gribble> jgarzik was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 2 hours, 37 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <jgarzik> christophe, idle or not, I am omnipresent
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1615 2014-06-15 22:57:51 <poutine> sipa, Can I message you regarding a security issue, might be trivial, but I had some questions about it
1616 2014-06-15 22:57:52 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, i much preferred my solution, each bitcoin transfer from intersango would include a public link that consisted of a large nonce, you could provide the nonce to anybody to prove that it was paid
1617 2014-06-15 22:58:26 <phantomcircuit> you get the same security properties without telling the entire world the transfer was from mtgox
1618 2014-06-15 22:58:37 <sipa> poutine: yes
1619 2014-06-15 22:58:49 <phantomcircuit> not to mention it was trivially implemented vs using a custom bitcoin client...
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1633 2014-06-15 23:16:45 <btc123> http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/06/bitcoin-security-guarantee-shattered-by-anonymous-miner-with-51-network-power/
1634 2014-06-15 23:17:12 <jgarzik> christophe, See /topic.  Don't ask to ask, just ask.  Or email jgarzik@bitpay.com
1635 2014-06-15 23:17:16 <btc123> maybe its time the foundation / bitcoin.org start promoting P2Pool ?
1636 2014-06-15 23:17:34 <jgarzik> I'm all for more p2pool promotion
1637 2014-06-15 23:17:49 <jgarzik> somebody writes the content / does the work, I'm sure we can poke BF to push it
1638 2014-06-15 23:18:22 <Luke-Jr> BF endorsing a specific pool would be a bad thing.
1639 2014-06-15 23:19:37 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1640 2014-06-15 23:21:20 <jgarzik> A fair point, but I think we have a responsibility to promote decentralized solutions
1641 2014-06-15 23:21:42 <phantomcircuit> psh
1642 2014-06-15 23:21:46 <phantomcircuit> just send me money
1643 2014-06-15 23:21:57 <phantomcircuit> i'll get you double your value over buying new hw
1644 2014-06-15 23:22:01 <petertodd> If someone creates the full suite of software required for pooled-solo mode then the BF can promote it as well as p2pool.
1645 2014-06-15 23:22:03 <phantomcircuit> i'll buy if from cex.io
1646 2014-06-15 23:22:09 <Luke-Jr> I wish BCF's grant to p2pool had some requirement that forrestv make it such that modifying it to function as a totally different pool were easy to do. <.<
1647 2014-06-15 23:22:10 <phantomcircuit> you get double the decentralization for your value!
1648 2014-06-15 23:22:26 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: working on it.. but lechuga_ & I only have so much time.
1649 2014-06-15 23:22:57 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: ok, so then BF can promote p2pool as something ready now, and it as something to be ready later
1650 2014-06-15 23:23:36 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: maybe BCF can give someone a grant to help get it all finished ;)
1651 2014-06-15 23:23:42 <Luke-Jr> but I think we need to find such a person with the time first
1652 2014-06-15 23:23:46 <Luke-Jr> and have them apply
1653 2014-06-15 23:25:11 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: I think we need a BF grant to develop cloning vats...
1654 2014-06-15 23:25:20 <Luke-Jr> hehe
1655 2014-06-15 23:25:29 <Luke-Jr> too bad clones still need to be trained :<
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1660 2014-06-15 23:31:12 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, trained? they take years just to grow up!
1661 2014-06-15 23:31:48 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: that's why you use the time machine to start them in advance
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1663 2014-06-15 23:34:26 <btc123> Luke-Jr: BF has a *responsbility* to promote P2Pool mining. no debate about it.
1664 2014-06-15 23:34:47 <Luke-Jr> btc123: no.
1665 2014-06-15 23:35:08 <SomeoneWeird> oh so we can't clone humans perfectly, but we can travel through time? ;)
1666 2014-06-15 23:35:24 <btc123> i know eligius will die out if everyone switches, so your attempts to block tx's you don't like will vanish -- deal with it
1667 2014-06-15 23:36:20 <Luke-Jr> btc123: trolling is off-topic here for sure
1668 2014-06-15 23:36:33 <btc123> there isn't a signle person in bitcoin who thinks P2Pool mining shouldn't be encouraged
1669 2014-06-15 23:36:57 <justanotheruser> btc123: #bitcoin
1670 2014-06-15 23:37:41 <SomeoneWeird> wumpus: readme has 5.2.0 for QT, OSX qt looks like it needs 5.2.1, btw
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