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10 2014-06-16 00:06:35 <dsnrk> Luke-Jr: "modifying it to function as a totally different pool were easy to do" < an altcoin does this, they have three p2pool shards. might be working looking into how they work.
11 2014-06-16 00:09:44 <dsnrk> Luke-Jr: it does support being sharded quite well. there's options to change the magic for different altcoins and testnet. all you need to do is add a new network and magic, and you're good to go. https://github.com/forrestv/p2pool/blob/f0eeb48c31abd3a59b65ab060e4daa0895772ddd/p2pool/networks.py#L12
12 2014-06-16 00:11:17 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: sharding it doesn't count
13 2014-06-16 00:11:28 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: the rules/system is what matters
14 2014-06-16 00:11:45 <Luke-Jr> one should be able to pull out PPLNS and put in CPPSRB without messing with the p2p logic
15 2014-06-16 00:12:10 <dsnrk> Luke-Jr: nothing stopping you from changing the magic so p2pool and p3pool don't talk to each other, then it doesn't matter what rules you have modified.
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17 2014-06-16 00:12:26 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: my point is that modifying the rules is difficult
18 2014-06-16 00:12:32 <Luke-Jr> or really modifying any of the logic
19 2014-06-16 00:12:35 <dsnrk> got it, sorry.
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22 2014-06-16 00:14:09 <dsnrk> maybe somebody will fund a modular p3pool in C :)
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24 2014-06-16 00:15:32 <buZz> vertcoin has 3 p2pools
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26 2014-06-16 00:21:32 <reipr> petertodd: care to talk about this in a pm?
27 2014-06-16 00:22:02 kadoban has quit (Quit: bye)
28 2014-06-16 00:23:08 <reipr> I'd like to
29 2014-06-16 00:23:16 <reipr> future proof my implementation
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40 2014-06-16 00:40:35 <reipr> actually nvm
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46 2014-06-16 00:49:19 <copumpkin> is coin control standard in bitcoin-qt now?
47 2014-06-16 00:49:30 <copumpkin> I seem to have it on but I can't remember if I did anything weird to get it
48 2014-06-16 00:50:29 <phantomcircuit> copumpkin, yes it is
49 2014-06-16 00:50:36 <phantomcircuit> you have to enable expert mode or something
50 2014-06-16 00:50:57 <copumpkin> ah okay
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57 2014-06-16 00:58:46 Hondura has joined
58 2014-06-16 00:58:50 <Hondura> Hello.
59 2014-06-16 00:58:52 jtimon has joined
60 2014-06-16 00:58:59 <Hondura> I'm looking for some help, im at right place?
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65 2014-06-16 01:06:10 <copumpkin> Hondura: depends what kind of help you're after...
66 2014-06-16 01:06:37 <Hondura> Ok.´here it goes.
67 2014-06-16 01:07:03 <Hondura> As a ''coder'' i want leanr more.
68 2014-06-16 01:07:40 <Hondura> And I decided to create my own coin, not to launch but just to make the process behind it and try mine it and make everything that a coin does.
69 2014-06-16 01:07:46 <Hondura> Based on bitcoin..
70 2014-06-16 01:08:01 <Hondura> can i pm you please?
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72 2014-06-16 01:09:51 <Luke-Jr> !ops Hondura has already been informed #bitcoin* is for Bitcoin, and expressed that he doesn't even know how to compile code in ##altcoin-dev before coming here
73 2014-06-16 01:10:03 elliot_ has joined
74 2014-06-16 01:10:33 <gwillen> Hondura: sorry, this isn't the right place for that. This channel is only for bitcoin, and only for discussion of development of the bitcoin client software.
75 2014-06-16 01:11:03 <Hondura> gwillen may I pm me and take 2min of your time?
76 2014-06-16 01:11:04 <Hondura> I sware
77 2014-06-16 01:11:37 <Luke-Jr> Hondura: if people wanted to deal with you, they'd be answering you in ##altcoin-dev
78 2014-06-16 01:11:41 <gwillen> Hondura: Sorry, no.
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81 2014-06-16 01:12:22 <Hondura> Luke and cant you help me like 10min? of ur time?
82 2014-06-16 01:12:48 <Hondura> I just want learn..
83 2014-06-16 01:12:59 <yano> not everyone in here is a developer for bitcoin
84 2014-06-16 01:13:15 <Hondura> I know.
85 2014-06-16 01:13:17 <Hondura> yano.
86 2014-06-16 01:13:28 torokun has quit (Quit: torokun)
87 2014-06-16 01:13:29 <yano> anyone is free to join the channel as it appears
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89 2014-06-16 01:13:59 <phantomcircuit> idiot
90 2014-06-16 01:14:07 <gwillen> phantomcircuit: be nice :-(
91 2014-06-16 01:14:23 <phantomcircuit> gwillen, nah
92 2014-06-16 01:15:55 <SomeoneWeird> heh
93 2014-06-16 01:16:02 <jgarzik> - request.push_back(Pair("method", strMethod));
94 2014-06-16 01:16:02 <jgarzik> - request.push_back(Pair("params", params));
95 2014-06-16 01:16:02 <jgarzik> - request.push_back(Pair("id", id));
96 2014-06-16 01:16:03 <jgarzik> + request.pushKV("method", strMethod);
97 2014-06-16 01:16:03 <jgarzik> + request.pushKV("params", params);
98 2014-06-16 01:16:03 <jgarzik> + request.pushKV("id", id);
99 2014-06-16 01:16:09 <jgarzik> die, json-spirit, die
100 2014-06-16 01:16:13 <copumpkin> o.O
101 2014-06-16 01:16:27 <Apocalyptic> die in a fire
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124 2014-06-16 01:59:08 <Luke-Jr> anyone know how I can debug why BFGMiner is causing 25% CPU to be wasted on context switching? :| jgarzik?
125 2014-06-16 02:00:01 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, are you constantly talking to the kernel, making ioctl calls for each USB packet or somesuch?
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127 2014-06-16 02:00:23 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: no USB, just SPI - and I think I've got it minimised down to as little as possible
128 2014-06-16 02:00:31 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: spi?
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130 2014-06-16 02:01:56 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, Forgive if this is known... context switch == jumping back and forth between your program and the kernel. You will context switch if you are waiting on I/O, talking to a kernel device driver of any sort (USB, SPI, anything).
131 2014-06-16 02:02:24 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: right. their miner seems to do fine with 10% ctx switching :x
132 2014-06-16 02:02:26 <jgarzik> It seems likely that is heading towards a pattern of "I'm running into problems because I did not want to write a kernel driver to solve this problem"
133 2014-06-16 02:02:52 <jgarzik> You want to batch work. Be interrupt driven, not polling.
134 2014-06-16 02:03:13 <jgarzik> Do not get more than 1 interrupt per work returned from hardware, ideally.
135 2014-06-16 02:03:25 <jgarzik> (depends on hardware interface, obviously)
136 2014-06-16 02:03:45 <jgarzik> If you are directly driving serial or USB at the signal or packet level, that is a difficult path to sustain.
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138 2014-06-16 02:05:34 <Luke-Jr> Linux doesn't seem to have a "continually do SPI and notify me when there's data", I think :/
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140 2014-06-16 02:06:13 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: any way to confirm which syscalls are causing it the most?
141 2014-06-16 02:06:54 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, Sure Linux does; many kernel drivers do that.
142 2014-06-16 02:07:09 <Luke-Jr> seems I have 1.91x involunary ctx switch and 2.96x voluntary
143 2014-06-16 02:07:15 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: for userspace? ;)
144 2014-06-16 02:08:34 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, how do you talk to SPI? ioctl(...SPI_IOC_MESSAGE(..)...) ?
145 2014-06-16 02:08:48 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, do you ever call poll(2) ?
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149 2014-06-16 02:09:44 <Luke-Jr> SPI_IOC_MESSAGE yes
150 2014-06-16 02:10:02 <Luke-Jr> poll() specifically, no; just select
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154 2014-06-16 02:13:14 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, it looks quite dangerous to have ioctl and direct memory map open and going at the same time
155 2014-06-16 02:13:39 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: direct memory map for SPI? O.o
156 2014-06-16 02:14:29 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, you open /dev/mem
157 2014-06-16 02:14:33 <Luke-Jr> for GPIO, yes
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159 2014-06-16 02:15:37 <Luke-Jr> but is that going to interfere with unrelated SPI?
160 2014-06-16 02:16:03 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, doing anything through /dev/mem is usually a red flag
161 2014-06-16 02:16:11 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, sadly sometimes necessary in the embedded world
162 2014-06-16 02:16:32 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: my understanding is that it's a best practice for GPIO since the other interface has a ton of overhead
163 2014-06-16 02:17:06 <jgarzik> and thus crap piles upon crap, when one chooses to drive hardware from userspace
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165 2014-06-16 02:17:22 <jgarzik> all this is just so damn easy in the kernel
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169 2014-06-16 02:18:04 <jgarzik> proper kernel design is a driver, even One Big Multi-Vendor Driver will do, plus a tiny userspace module. kernel presents a unified interface across a single device class of hardware.
170 2014-06-16 02:19:18 <jgarzik> design the kernel<->userland API properly. Choose whether you need a file descriptor a la http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/timerfd_create.2.html as a central point for interfacing with the kernel driver.
171 2014-06-16 02:20:27 <Luke-Jr> but HURD support! </troll> :p
172 2014-06-16 02:20:44 <jgarzik> everything is nice and interrupt driven inside the kernel. or, if the hardware is too stupid to support any sort of async signaling that may be pretended to be an interrupt, the kernel has nice fallback facilities which __protect system resources__ while polling for the data you need.
173 2014-06-16 02:21:23 richcollins has joined
174 2014-06-16 02:21:25 <jgarzik> all this is an easy library call, inside the kernel. You focus on your hardware-specific details only.
175 2014-06-16 02:22:36 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: in general, I worry about: 1) not being able to provide something that works in distros today; and 2) Linus's review process (maybe I'm paranoid about it, but I imagine it's super-strict for adding a whole new device class)
176 2014-06-16 02:22:54 <jgarzik> Thou Shalt Not Bitbang From Userspace. Still holds true today. Your little program will be far more stupid than the kernel's core process scheduler, I promise.
177 2014-06-16 02:23:36 <jgarzik> People are happy to add working drivers for in-the-field hardware.
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180 2014-06-16 02:26:08 <Luke-Jr> SPI ioctl is bitbanging now? :|
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184 2014-06-16 02:37:01 <SomeoneWeird> pushed my gitian sigs \o/
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186 2014-06-16 02:42:47 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, what are you trying to drive?
187 2014-06-16 02:43:09 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: A1 chips
188 2014-06-16 02:44:30 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, what are those on?
189 2014-06-16 02:44:39 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: ?
190 2014-06-16 02:45:00 <phantomcircuit> oh that's bitmain.ch
191 2014-06-16 02:45:30 <Luke-Jr> well, I have non-Bitmain A1 chips, but yes same thing
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194 2014-06-16 02:47:44 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, im guessing that's the same spi daisy chaining stuff bitfury uses?
195 2014-06-16 02:47:47 <phantomcircuit> just give up
196 2014-06-16 02:47:55 <phantomcircuit> you're going to be using tons of cpu time driving them
197 2014-06-16 02:48:02 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: yes, I am. But it's possible.
198 2014-06-16 02:48:15 <Luke-Jr> but no, *different* SPI chaining stuff :p
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220 2014-06-16 03:24:44 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, what sort of power performance do you see on those at the wall?
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222 2014-06-16 03:29:34 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: no idea
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279 2014-06-16 05:53:37 <bsm117532> Hi folks, I'm trying to get bitcoind to sync with the network. I have bootstrap.dat from April, and it keeps crashing. (using git head)
280 2014-06-16 05:54:13 <wumpus> can you get a traceback on the crash?
281 2014-06-16 05:55:12 <bsm117532> http://pastebin.com/H44pAkkR
282 2014-06-16 05:55:21 paavo has left ()
283 2014-06-16 05:55:47 <bsm117532> That contains seven crashes (they're not identical), and I've also included the last line(s) of debug.log
284 2014-06-16 05:56:53 <bsm117532> What can I do to help? Debugging such a large data structure is...daunting.
285 2014-06-16 05:57:03 eoss has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
286 2014-06-16 05:57:19 <bsm117532> Is CCoinsViewCache new code? Most crashes are at coins.cpp:134.
287 2014-06-16 05:58:21 <wumpus> it looks like it is most like a synchronization/locking issue
288 2014-06-16 05:58:48 <wumpus> it's not new code but there have been a few changes regarding cs_main locking lately to reduce contention
289 2014-06-16 05:59:02 <wumpus> this happens while it is still syncing from the bootstrap?
290 2014-06-16 05:59:16 Beef has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
291 2014-06-16 05:59:36 <bsm117532> Yes. It's at 2014-06-16 05:49:19 UpdateTip: new best=00000000000000046ecff1fada9be8c94eb6e040463686eb647700d56692de73 height=269451 log2_work=73.845876 tx=26990218 date=2013-11-13 19:40:34 progress=0.343208
292 2014-06-16 05:59:43 <bsm117532> which is still within bootstrap.dat
293 2014-06-16 06:00:34 <bsm117532> I've checked that bootstrap.dat is not corrupt. (but bittorrent does checksumming anyway...)
294 2014-06-16 06:01:10 <wumpus> a corrupt bootstrap.dat cannot result in these problems, the blocks are validated as if they come from the network
295 2014-06-16 06:01:34 YoY has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
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297 2014-06-16 06:02:11 <bsm117532> I was previously having problems syncing with the network. It was pointed out that my blockchain somehow got corrupted (unclean shutdown?) I was surprised this could happen...but anyway started over from bootstrap.dat.
298 2014-06-16 06:02:12 <wumpus> seems that in those tracebacks there are various cases of heap corruption
299 2014-06-16 06:02:22 YoY has joined
300 2014-06-16 06:02:22 <bsm117532> yes...that would seem to be the acse.
301 2014-06-16 06:02:55 CheckDavid has joined
302 2014-06-16 06:03:58 <wumpus> it's certainly possible for the block chain to be corrupted, but usually it's only the index in which case a -reindex will solve it, no need to restart from a bootstrap file
303 2014-06-16 06:04:18 <bsm117532> Hmmm well too late now. ;-)
304 2014-06-16 06:04:29 <bsm117532> It would be cool if bitcoind could detect this case...
305 2014-06-16 06:04:46 <wumpus> if you really want to start over you need to delete all the files in .bitcoin as well (apart from the wallet ofc)
306 2014-06-16 06:05:01 <bsm117532> Yes, I did.
307 2014-06-16 06:05:07 <wumpus> it's not clear what 'this case' is, it could be a bug with master as well, that's a risk you have with running the bleeding edge
308 2014-06-16 06:05:24 <bsm117532> Yeah, well I thought you guys would want to know.
309 2014-06-16 06:05:38 <bsm117532> Trying to get into bitcoin myself, so throwing myself at the bleeding edge.
310 2014-06-16 06:05:49 <wumpus> I'd suggest to try with 0.9.2
311 2014-06-16 06:05:57 <wumpus> git checkout v0.9.2
312 2014-06-16 06:06:36 <dsnrk> for what it's worth I am running master with no glaring issues.
313 2014-06-16 06:07:10 <wumpus> dsnrk: me too, but if you have issues, it helps to compare with the latest stable release
314 2014-06-16 06:07:14 <bsm117532> Have you tried rebuilding the entire blockchain?
315 2014-06-16 06:07:21 <bsm117532> Trying 0.9.2 now...
316 2014-06-16 06:07:33 erasmospunk has joined
317 2014-06-16 06:07:39 <dsnrk> yes, I built a fresh testnet node a few hours ago.
318 2014-06-16 06:07:51 bonks has joined
319 2014-06-16 06:07:53 <bsm117532> How big is the blockchain on testnet?
320 2014-06-16 06:09:14 <bsm117532> FWIW these crashes are happening at height =~ 200000
321 2014-06-16 06:09:22 <bsm117532> And not at the same place each time.
322 2014-06-16 06:09:23 <dsnrk> 1.3G
323 2014-06-16 06:09:48 <bsm117532> I'm guessing that's a height < 30000
324 2014-06-16 06:09:54 Beef has joined
325 2014-06-16 06:10:03 <dsnrk> blocks=140700
326 2014-06-16 06:10:22 Gyps has quit (Quit: Gyps)
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328 2014-06-16 06:10:33 <bsm117532> The lowest height I saw this crash was at height=173245
329 2014-06-16 06:10:50 <bsm117532> Whatever it is, it's rare.
330 2014-06-16 06:11:29 Squidicuz has quit (Quit: Oh no, not again)
331 2014-06-16 06:11:36 <bsm117532> Anyway, I'll report on 0.9.2 in an hour or so.
332 2014-06-16 06:11:37 <wumpus> I've opened an issue for it https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4345
333 2014-06-16 06:11:49 <wumpus> hopefully it's ok with 0.9.2
334 2014-06-16 06:12:25 <bsm117532> Thanks, I'll post further to that bug.
335 2014-06-16 06:13:38 papa3 has joined
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340 2014-06-16 06:22:39 <wumpus> bsm117532: btw what kind of system is it, esp. how many cores?
341 2014-06-16 06:22:50 ericmuyser has joined
342 2014-06-16 06:23:01 <bsm117532> 4 core, Intel Core 2 quad, 8G ram.
343 2014-06-16 06:23:08 <wumpus> ok thanks
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375 2014-06-16 06:47:13 <michagogo> Wow, nice to see so many gitian builders
376 2014-06-16 06:47:18 MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving)
377 2014-06-16 06:47:25 <michagogo> Is everyone matching, other than Gavin?
378 2014-06-16 06:48:24 samson_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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382 2014-06-16 06:49:05 justanot1eruser is now known as justanotheruser
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384 2014-06-16 06:54:57 <wumpus> michagogo: everything matches except gavin OSX
385 2014-06-16 06:55:21 <SomeoneWeird> yup
386 2014-06-16 06:56:50 skinnkavaj has joined
387 2014-06-16 06:58:44 <michagogo> Has he been around yet?
388 2014-06-16 06:58:54 <michagogo> ;;seen gavinandresen
389 2014-06-16 06:58:55 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 5 hours, 54 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> If you're able to gitian-build releases⦠now would be a great time to fire up your virtual machine and build the 0.9.2 release.
390 2014-06-16 06:58:59 <SomeoneWeird> ;;seen gavinandresen
391 2014-06-16 06:58:59 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 5 hours, 54 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> If you're able to gitian-build releases⦠now would be a great time to fire up your virtual machine and build the 0.9.2 release.
392 2014-06-16 06:59:00 <SomeoneWeird> heh
393 2014-06-16 06:59:08 <SomeoneWeird> nop! :p
394 2014-06-16 07:00:57 JackH has joined
395 2014-06-16 07:02:43 <michagogo> What was sipa's topic change at 01:27 UTC?
396 2014-06-16 07:03:04 <michagogo> Uh, sorry, make that 00:27 -- keep forgetting we're +3 in the summer
397 2014-06-16 07:03:25 <michagogo> (I wish irccloud did topic history)
398 2014-06-16 07:03:31 <dsnrk> think it just made the topic more forceful
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436 2014-06-16 07:55:33 <petertodd> getting a lot of: " ProcessMessages(tx, 1 bytes) : Exception 'CDataStream::read() : end of data' caught, normally caused by a message being shorter than its stated length" <- is this some DoS attack I haven't heard about?
437 2014-06-16 07:56:00 <petertodd> (on my replace-by-fee nodes, which would explain why they're being attacked...)
438 2014-06-16 07:58:25 <dsnrk> nothing in any of my logs like that. lots and lots of invalid pubkey errors though.
439 2014-06-16 07:58:40 <petertodd> dsnrk: what version are you running?
440 2014-06-16 07:58:52 <dsnrk> 0.9.1 / 0.9.1 / master
441 2014-06-16 07:59:08 <petertodd> same, so I'm probably getting attacked
442 2014-06-16 07:59:18 FManTropyx has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
443 2014-06-16 07:59:20 <petertodd> (or someone's software is shite...)
444 2014-06-16 07:59:23 <Apocalyptic> probably
445 2014-06-16 07:59:38 FManTropyx has joined
446 2014-06-16 07:59:42 <Apocalyptic> though it doesn't seem to be a very disruptive attack
447 2014-06-16 08:00:06 <petertodd> Apocalyptic: one seems to have crashed, the others are ok, so yeah, not very disruptive
448 2014-06-16 08:00:09 <dsnrk> I've been trying to track it down but it's one of those things where as soon as you try to get a pcap of the traffic it stops. I don't know that's causing it, but I have a whole bunch of different pubkey errors in floods.
449 2014-06-16 08:00:36 <petertodd> well, pubkey errors aren't anything surprising; this is because I'm being sent definitely invalid txs
450 2014-06-16 08:01:09 <dsnrk> well same I assume, a normal node wouldn't relay junk so it's either an attack or shitty software.
451 2014-06-16 08:01:13 <petertodd> yup
452 2014-06-16 08:01:37 <dsnrk> oddly I'm seeing them on a node that doesn't listen too.
453 2014-06-16 08:01:54 <petertodd> oh, curious
454 2014-06-16 08:02:04 <petertodd> dsnrk: er, you mean my attack or the invalid pubkeys?
455 2014-06-16 08:02:38 <dsnrk> invalid pubkey spam, I've checked the logs of all three and not seen any exceptions like that.
456 2014-06-16 08:03:11 <petertodd> dsnrk: like i say, the invalid pubkey tests are something that's been added, so seeing invalid ones isn't a surprise
457 2014-06-16 08:03:43 <dsnrk> what would be making them though?
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461 2014-06-16 08:04:11 <petertodd> dsnrk: old software
462 2014-06-16 08:04:26 <petertodd> dsnrk: maybe data-in-chain things that don't use pubkey hiding?
463 2014-06-16 08:05:15 <dsnrk> I thought that, but none of my connections on this node are anything but >= 0.8.0. or at least they claim to be that.
464 2014-06-16 08:05:21 sabrexx has quit (Quit: sabrexx)
465 2014-06-16 08:05:28 <petertodd> dsnrk: what's the exact error message you're seeing again?
466 2014-06-16 08:06:39 <dsnrk> a mix of the non-canonical public key errors. wrong length, neither compressed nor uncompressed.
467 2014-06-16 08:07:06 <petertodd> dsnrk: yeah, i forget when checks for that were added, but anyway, nothing surprising to see that
468 2014-06-16 08:07:18 <petertodd> dsnrk: I think counterparty is still producing those, among others
469 2014-06-16 08:07:50 <dsnrk> petertodd: happier to know a cause, thanks.
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476 2014-06-16 08:27:02 <gdm85> I am using 'onlynet=ipv4
477 2014-06-16 08:27:18 <gdm85> in the configuration file, shouldnt that limit listening ports to IPv4?
478 2014-06-16 08:27:54 sahlhoff has left ()
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480 2014-06-16 08:28:18 <wumpus> no, that doesn't affect binding, just what it connects to
481 2014-06-16 08:28:43 <gdm85> ah, clear. any idea how to force binding only on specific network?
482 2014-06-16 08:29:04 <wumpus> -bind
483 2014-06-16 08:29:22 <gdm85> makes sense..thanks
484 2014-06-16 08:29:56 <gdm85> do you know if it's an option that can be specified multiple times? I'd say yes
485 2014-06-16 08:30:05 <wumpus> yes
486 2014-06-16 08:30:38 <gdm85> but will -bind affect the RPC or the P2P? or both? it can't be both if you can specify the port..
487 2014-06-16 08:30:50 <wumpus> it affects P2P
488 2014-06-16 08:31:07 <gdm85> ah! sorry, I was unclear. I am looking at the interface bound for RPC
489 2014-06-16 08:31:10 <wumpus> in master there is rpcbind as well, which works the same but for RPC
490 2014-06-16 08:31:25 <gdm85> so 0.9.1 doesn't have that?
491 2014-06-16 08:31:33 <wumpus> in 0.9.x it's either bind local or bind everything
492 2014-06-16 08:31:36 <gdm85> I see. that's why is not in the wiki
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499 2014-06-16 08:39:38 <gdm85> wumpus: I am using listen=0 and server=1 in 0.9.1, and even with bind=10.0.5.3 it still binds RPC port on IPv6's ::
500 2014-06-16 08:39:43 * gdm85 is puzzled
501 2014-06-16 08:39:55 <wumpus> bind and listen do not affect RPC
502 2014-06-16 08:40:13 <wumpus> they are P2P options
503 2014-06-16 08:40:15 <wumpus> just like onlynet
504 2014-06-16 08:40:32 <gdm85> wumpus: so when you say "bind local or bind everything" you mean either bind to 127.0.0.1 or bind on all networks
505 2014-06-16 08:40:39 <wumpus> you shouldn't confuse the options for those two services, they are completely separate
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507 2014-06-16 08:41:14 <wumpus> gdm85: when you specify rpcallowip it binds on all networks, if you don't specify it it only binds locally
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509 2014-06-16 08:41:27 <wumpus> gdm85: no combination of other options will influence that
510 2014-06-16 08:43:03 davout has joined
511 2014-06-16 08:43:06 <gdm85> wumpus: I guess I am missing the part where it binds on all networks. I have specified rpcallowip but it's binding RPC only to IPv6
512 2014-06-16 08:43:19 <gdm85> could this be related to the fact I am using a non-root user to run bitcoind?
513 2014-06-16 08:43:26 <wumpus> *only* to IPv6?!
514 2014-06-16 08:43:35 <gdm85> yep
515 2014-06-16 08:43:43 <wumpus> no, you should definitely never run bitcoind as root
516 2014-06-16 08:43:53 <gdm85> the port number is correct, but it's on ::
517 2014-06-16 08:43:53 xch__ has joined
518 2014-06-16 08:44:04 <gdm85> good to hear :)
519 2014-06-16 08:44:06 <wumpus> are you sure it's not doing a IPv4+IPv6 bind?
520 2014-06-16 08:44:09 <xch__> hey guys, quick question -- what format is the output of the dumpprivkey key in?
521 2014-06-16 08:44:22 <lianj> xch__: wip
522 2014-06-16 08:44:31 ubuntuDoubts has joined
523 2014-06-16 08:44:33 <gdm85> wumpus: I am using 'netstat -talnp' to check open ports, I see only one entry for that port on the :: interface
524 2014-06-16 08:44:34 <wumpus> are you running on some strange operating system or non-standard security configuration?
525 2014-06-16 08:44:40 <xch__> lianj: is WIP different than WIF?
526 2014-06-16 08:44:40 <ubuntuDoubts> HI
527 2014-06-16 08:44:49 <wumpus> gdm85: have you *tried* whether the port is open, with nc for example?
528 2014-06-16 08:44:51 <lianj> xch__: eh sorry, wif
529 2014-06-16 08:44:56 <gdm85> wumpus: it's Linux.
530 2014-06-16 08:44:58 <ubuntuDoubts> Im loking for some help to compile bitcoind + qt on ubuntu. Does some1 can help me out ?
531 2014-06-16 08:45:15 <xch__> lianj: that's what I thought -- but for some reason the new Coinpocket app can't read it
532 2014-06-16 08:45:42 <ubuntuDoubts> Im quite new to ubuntu, I was trying to do on windows but many people said me to compile on Ubuntu, cause it will be much easier.
533 2014-06-16 08:45:55 <ubuntuDoubts> Does anybody get me a good guide to follow ? Step by step ?
534 2014-06-16 08:46:06 <xch__> ubuntuDoubts: are you trying to compile Bitcoin Core?
535 2014-06-16 08:46:48 <ubuntuDoubts> xch_ ok, not bitcoin, my own coin ( not to launch , and im not a dev) , im just a programmer who wish to learn more about cryptos..
536 2014-06-16 08:46:55 <ubuntuDoubts> Based on bitcoin.
537 2014-06-16 08:46:55 <gdm85> wumpus: you're right, even if it's not listed it seems open with nc :s
538 2014-06-16 08:47:09 <ubuntuDoubts> I just changed the limit of coins nothing more.
539 2014-06-16 08:47:12 <ubuntuDoubts> Ah and the name ..
540 2014-06-16 08:47:32 <ubuntuDoubts> i passed whole 'bitcoin' terms to 'testcoin'
541 2014-06-16 08:47:37 <gdm85> I guess I'll have to understand how this IPv4+IPv6 binding works..
542 2014-06-16 08:47:42 <Dagger> gdm85/wumpus: if you have net.ipv6.bindv6only left at the default 0, v6 sockets listening on :: can accept v4 connections too
543 2014-06-16 08:47:55 <wumpus> Dagger: yep
544 2014-06-16 08:47:56 <gdm85> Dagger: that's one bit of information I was missing!
545 2014-06-16 08:48:00 <xch__> lianj: is there a difference between private keys that start with 5 and those that start with K?
546 2014-06-16 08:48:08 <xch__> lianj: or are they both wallet import format?
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551 2014-06-16 08:52:34 <lianj> xch__: K is a compressed pubkey address
552 2014-06-16 08:52:43 <lianj> 5 is an uncompressed one
553 2014-06-16 08:52:51 <Jouke> xch__: both wif, starting with 5 in uncompressed, K or L is compressed public key
554 2014-06-16 08:53:57 <xch__> lianj: Bitcoin Core outputs both though, from dumpprivkey -- is there a way to specify only uncompressed keys?
555 2014-06-16 08:54:15 <xch__> lianj: for instance, sometimes dumpprivkey returns something like KwF6FhkCCa6rD6NBFdG3kYqns5SKUPeq6ai48Fa6cmrcQu3D7Am3
556 2014-06-16 08:54:22 <xch__> lianj: other times it outputs 5JEM98FTNnWT6Fc3aYx97JTUJ9Mt229DF8Q9LWAZYExnf2Ek6Eh
557 2014-06-16 08:54:25 <Jouke> Than you have an old wallet.
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560 2014-06-16 08:55:13 <Jouke> A compressed pubkey creates an other bitcoinaddress than a umcompressed pubkey from the same private key.
561 2014-06-16 08:55:31 <gmaxwell> You should not be using uncompressed keys, generally.
562 2014-06-16 08:56:06 <xch__> gmaxwell: I am running Bitcoin Core 0.9.1 -- just trying to create private keys that start with 5
563 2014-06-16 08:56:23 <lianj> if coinpocket app doesn't suppor compressed pubkey addresses then coinpocket is the problem
564 2014-06-16 08:56:34 <gmaxwell> xch__: It will no longer generate private keys that start with 5, not at least if you're using a current wallet version.
565 2014-06-16 08:56:49 <xch__> gmaxwell : I see, then Coinpocket is the problem
566 2014-06-16 08:57:03 <gmaxwell> Uncompressed keys result in considerably larget transactions (and thus higher tx fees in aggregate)
567 2014-06-16 08:57:31 <gmaxwell> er larger*
568 2014-06-16 08:57:59 <xch__> gmaxwell : I see, makes sense. So the correct format should be KwF6FhkCCa6rD6NBFdG3kYqns5SKUPeq6ai48Fa6cmrcQu3D7Am3 for all WIF clients going forward?
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570 2014-06-16 09:00:14 <gdm85> thanks guys, I could troubleshoot the other end of the problem :)
571 2014-06-16 09:00:32 <gmaxwell> xch__: Or L*
572 2014-06-16 09:01:18 graingert has joined
573 2014-06-16 09:01:34 <xch__> gmaxwell: Thank you
574 2014-06-16 09:02:07 <lianj> well, parsing 5 should still be supported. the format didn't really change. you unpack the base58 and then it tells you what it is
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576 2014-06-16 09:02:15 <ubuntuDoubts_> im back
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579 2014-06-16 09:05:25 Aido_ is now known as Aido
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581 2014-06-16 09:09:37 <ubuntuDoubts_> Does anyone give me a good guide to compile coin on linux ?
582 2014-06-16 09:09:54 <sipa> rtfm
583 2014-06-16 09:09:59 <lianj> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-unix.md
584 2014-06-16 09:10:00 <ubuntuDoubts_> Im quite new to this OS, and im just using it cause was a bit complicated to complile on windows.
585 2014-06-16 09:10:23 <ubuntuDoubts_> lianj, that will help me to build not bitcoin but other coin based on bitcoin ?
586 2014-06-16 09:10:30 <buZz> yes
587 2014-06-16 09:10:33 <gdm85> Dagger: IPv6's '::' does not correspond to 0.0.0.0 correct?
588 2014-06-16 09:10:39 <ubuntuDoubts_> Just a dumb quastion, where should i dump my coin code?
589 2014-06-16 09:11:00 <buZz> i use ~/coinname/src
590 2014-06-16 09:11:18 <lianj> /dev/null
591 2014-06-16 09:11:24 <Dagger> gdm85: it's the same idea. listen on :: to accept connections to all local addresses rather than a specific one
592 2014-06-16 09:12:15 <Dagger> (all v6 addresses, but it also has that special behavior where v4 connections can be accepted too)
593 2014-06-16 09:12:57 <gdm85> Dagger: ok, I understand. but having one rpcallowip= line with a non-local address, should bitcoind listen on 0.0.0.0?
594 2014-06-16 09:13:04 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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596 2014-06-16 09:13:50 davispuh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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598 2014-06-16 09:15:07 <Dagger> gdm85: I'm not very familiar with it... but I don't think rpcallowip is for specifying what IP to bind to
599 2014-06-16 09:15:08 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
600 2014-06-16 09:15:24 <Dagger> gdm85: as in, it'd be valid to listen for all connections but reject any that come from an IP not listed in rpcallowip
601 2014-06-16 09:15:58 <gdm85> Dagger: second what wumpus said, either binds locally or to all interfaces. for some reason it's binding locally here
602 2014-06-16 09:16:16 <sipa> you need rpcbind for that i guess
603 2014-06-16 09:16:16 <ubuntuDoubts_> lianj may I pm ya ?
604 2014-06-16 09:16:17 <gdm85> Dagger: yes that's what it would do with a working rpcallowip
605 2014-06-16 09:16:33 <gdm85> sipa: I am sure that will be much easier to use
606 2014-06-16 09:17:06 <sipa> rpcbind defines what you bind to, rpcallowip filters incoming connects after they are established
607 2014-06-16 09:17:51 <gdm85> sipa: thus rpcallowip should first bind to all interfaces, then filter. but it's binding to localhost only here..
608 2014-06-16 09:18:11 <warren> "Even worse, they can double-trade coins in a way that no one would ever find out, even if they dropped back below 51%."
609 2014-06-16 09:18:19 <ubuntuDoubts_> guys, first of all i should install all dependecnies
610 2014-06-16 09:18:35 * warren facepalm
611 2014-06-16 09:18:41 graingert has joined
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616 2014-06-16 09:19:57 <gdm85> eh, P2P port is going correctly on 0.0.0.0...
617 2014-06-16 09:23:59 robonerd has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
618 2014-06-16 09:24:26 gimmezeit has joined
619 2014-06-16 09:24:54 <sipa> gdm85: are you specifying rpcbind?
620 2014-06-16 09:24:54 Vitalik_ has joined
621 2014-06-16 09:25:07 <gdm85> sipa: it's not master, it's 0.9.1/0.9.2rc2
622 2014-06-16 09:25:36 <sipa> that code has not changed in years
623 2014-06-16 09:25:40 <sipa> i may misremember though
624 2014-06-16 09:25:48 <sipa> but afaik by default it only binds to localhost
625 2014-06-16 09:25:49 robonerd has joined
626 2014-06-16 09:26:26 <gdm85> sipa: unfortunately the rpcbind option is not there in 0.9.1. but I am doing some other tests on client side
627 2014-06-16 09:27:48 gimmetime has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
628 2014-06-16 09:28:18 Vitalik has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
629 2014-06-16 09:29:24 <gdm85> sipa: in the end I managed to have it working
630 2014-06-16 09:32:03 n0n0 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
631 2014-06-16 09:33:17 w1zman has joined
632 2014-06-16 09:33:33 <gdm85> mainly what I learnt is that when looking at netstat ':::18332' does not mean it's listening on localhost only
633 2014-06-16 09:34:00 <gdm85> although listed as 'tcp6', requests are coming in perfectly as if it were 0.0.0.0
634 2014-06-16 09:34:06 <ubuntuDoubts_> Someone help me please?
635 2014-06-16 09:34:15 <ubuntuDoubts_> I'm stucked at compiling..
636 2014-06-16 09:34:24 <ubuntuDoubts_> Im quite new to ubuntu mates..
637 2014-06-16 09:34:42 <ubuntuDoubts_> Anyway seems much easier than compile on windows.
638 2014-06-16 09:35:45 <gdm85> ubuntuDoubts_: people is more likely willing to help if you put a bit more effort in using existing documentation/resources. nothing is inherently 'easy', although that doesn't mean you should give up early
639 2014-06-16 09:36:13 JackH has joined
640 2014-06-16 09:36:17 <ubuntuDoubts_> gdm85 i 'll never give up! Im doing this for the past 2 weeks.
641 2014-06-16 09:36:54 <ubuntuDoubts_> gdm85 my problem is, i cant find a good guide.. I passed last week trying compile on windows, i couldn't..
642 2014-06-16 09:37:04 <gdm85> ubuntuDoubts_: lianj gave you a link: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-unix.md
643 2014-06-16 09:37:07 <ubuntuDoubts_> LAst night some people here told me to try ubuntu.
644 2014-06-16 09:37:08 <wumpus> people also cannot help if you don't tell what the specific problem is
645 2014-06-16 09:37:33 <wumpus> or even what you are trying to do, do you want to compile for ubuntu itself or do a gitian build for all platforms?
646 2014-06-16 09:37:44 <ubuntuDoubts_> ok, my problem atm is: I dont know where i should start.. I already dump my source code to ubuntu drive.
647 2014-06-16 09:38:06 <ubuntuDoubts_> gitian build for al plataforms seems better.
648 2014-06-16 09:38:34 <ubuntuDoubts_> Anyway, this is only to understand and learn more.. Im 21 php coder.. I jsut want to learn new things.
649 2014-06-16 09:38:45 <ubuntuDoubts_> wumpus my I pm you ?
650 2014-06-16 09:39:01 <wumpus> rather not, unless you have a confidential issue to report
651 2014-06-16 09:39:20 <wumpus> gitian building is described in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/gitian-building.md
652 2014-06-16 09:40:18 <sipa> wumpus: he just doesn't know how to do a bitcoin complation
653 2014-06-16 09:40:30 <sipa> or anything in linux
654 2014-06-16 09:40:41 <sipa> i suspect
655 2014-06-16 09:41:03 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
656 2014-06-16 09:41:07 <gdm85> ubuntuDoubts_: did you check that official guide?
657 2014-06-16 09:41:25 <gdm85> it might not be extremely detailed or exactly a 'for dummies' guide, but it's a start
658 2014-06-16 09:41:32 ArthurNumbanumba has joined
659 2014-06-16 09:41:55 <wumpus> in that case you should follow the instructions in doc/build-unix.md; ie, install the dependencies using apt-get, and do ./autogen.sh ./configure <flags>, and then make
660 2014-06-16 09:42:25 <wumpus> I see gdm85 already quoted them
661 2014-06-16 09:42:37 JackH has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
662 2014-06-16 09:42:45 <ubuntuDoubts_> ok, wumpus does i need instal gitian ?
663 2014-06-16 09:42:49 <ubuntuDoubts_> Or i can do that from ubuntu ?
664 2014-06-16 09:43:03 GM0127 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
665 2014-06-16 09:43:08 <gdm85> sipa, wumpus, Dagger regarding RPC listening: perhaps I have just been confusing :: with ::1 :s my bad.. now everything is working as expected. (although having IPv4 routed through IPv6 adds to the confusion)
666 2014-06-16 09:43:23 <gdm85> ubuntuDoubts_: I would start without gitian, it's a tad more complex
667 2014-06-16 09:43:29 <ubuntuDoubts_> Ok
668 2014-06-16 09:43:47 <ubuntuDoubts_> But without gitian i willn't able to run the client on windows right?
669 2014-06-16 09:43:59 <ubuntuDoubts_> this client will only wun on linux?
670 2014-06-16 09:44:06 <gdm85> ubuntuDoubts_: yes
671 2014-06-16 09:44:10 <ubuntuDoubts_> Sorry all for my newbie questions!
672 2014-06-16 09:44:33 <ubuntuDoubts_> ahhhh so, i will have anyway to compile it on windows to got it work sucessufu on windows ?
673 2014-06-16 09:44:53 <sipa> no, you can use gitian for that
674 2014-06-16 09:45:00 <wumpus> ipv4 is not "routed through" ipv6, it's just that the case that programs want to bind to both networks is so common that it is the default in linux and can be done in one bind statement...
675 2014-06-16 09:45:01 <ubuntuDoubts_> thansk sipa.
676 2014-06-16 09:45:03 <sipa> which crosscompiles linux to windows
677 2014-06-16 09:45:08 <ubuntuDoubts_> Ok!
678 2014-06-16 09:45:16 <ubuntuDoubts_> U cryptocurrency ubuntunderstood now, much better,
679 2014-06-16 09:45:25 <ubuntuDoubts_> For now i will try just compile it for ubuntu.
680 2014-06-16 09:45:36 <sipa> i would suggest that
681 2014-06-16 09:45:45 <ubuntuDoubts_> that will be the next objective.
682 2014-06-16 09:45:55 <ubuntuDoubts_> thanks for this help people..
683 2014-06-16 09:46:10 <ubuntuDoubts_> Sipa, gdm85 and wumpus.. thansk your patience.
684 2014-06-16 09:46:22 <ubuntuDoubts_> I will let know how this runs.
685 2014-06-16 09:46:43 GM0127 has joined
686 2014-06-16 09:46:56 <gdm85> wumpus: yeah now I know..
687 2014-06-16 09:49:16 Starduster has joined
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694 2014-06-16 09:52:50 <WalletMigrator> Hi, I have an old wallet that (for a variety of reasons, including: I accidentally getnewaddressed a few thousand times, and it's still using uncompressed keys) I want to replace with a fresh wallet. What's the best way to do this? Send everything to the new wallet all at once in one tx? Send everything to the new wallet in a bunch of txes? Export the privkeys that have unspent outputs and move them into the new wallet?
695 2014-06-16 09:53:14 <sipa> is the wallet encrypted?
696 2014-06-16 09:53:25 <WalletMigrator> It is
697 2014-06-16 09:53:50 <WalletMigrator> why?
698 2014-06-16 09:54:01 <sipa> because encrypting flushes the keypool
699 2014-06-16 09:54:47 <WalletMigrator> ah, I see what you;re saying, if it weren't i could encrypt it and fix the uncompressed thing at least
700 2014-06-16 09:55:41 <sipa> you can make new keys be compressed by startwith -upgradewalet
701 2014-06-16 09:55:53 <sipa> by starting with -upgradewallet
702 2014-06-16 09:55:59 <WalletMigrator> upgradewallet? what does that do?
703 2014-06-16 09:56:17 <WalletMigrator> " -upgradewallet Upgrade wallet to latest format on startup"
704 2014-06-16 09:56:21 <WalletMigrator> there are different formats? O_o
705 2014-06-16 09:56:22 wallet42 has joined
706 2014-06-16 09:56:31 <sipa> not really different formats
707 2014-06-16 09:56:37 ThomasV has joined
708 2014-06-16 09:56:39 <sipa> but a few optional features that old clients don't support
709 2014-06-16 09:57:01 <sipa> by using -upgradewallet, you set the version marker to the latest available
710 2014-06-16 09:57:04 <WalletMigrator> like compressed keys? :)
711 2014-06-16 09:57:10 <WalletMigrator> anything else?
712 2014-06-16 09:57:12 <sipa> yes, and that's the only feature really
713 2014-06-16 09:57:21 <sipa> encryption is one too, but you already have that
714 2014-06-16 09:57:37 JackH has joined
715 2014-06-16 09:58:57 <WalletMigrator> well, the thing is
716 2014-06-16 09:59:03 <WalletMigrator> the wallet is 5.15 MB
717 2014-06-16 09:59:13 <sipa> so?
718 2014-06-16 09:59:16 <Jouke> so?
719 2014-06-16 09:59:20 <WalletMigrator> it takes a long time to start up
720 2014-06-16 09:59:41 <sipa> ok, then move to a new wallet
721 2014-06-16 09:59:48 <sipa> if you don't mind losing the old keys
722 2014-06-16 09:59:59 <WalletMigrator> right, that's what I wanted to do. so what's the best way to do that?
723 2014-06-16 10:00:06 <WalletMigrator> in terms of safety and privacy
724 2014-06-16 10:00:12 <sipa> make a new wallet, send your money there :)
725 2014-06-16 10:00:28 <sipa> ah, privacy... you'll likely be aggregating all of your coins
726 2014-06-16 10:00:28 <Jouke> are you sure it is the wallet's fault?
727 2014-06-16 10:00:39 <WalletMigrator> should I send each utxo I have in a transaction? or make it separate? or something else?
728 2014-06-16 10:00:46 <Jouke> I have a wallet of over 500M that's still ok to start
729 2014-06-16 10:01:51 JackH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
730 2014-06-16 10:01:53 <WalletMigrator> hm
731 2014-06-16 10:01:54 <WalletMigrator> 2014-06-16 09:50:00 wallet 663ms
732 2014-06-16 10:02:08 <WalletMigrator> maybe that's not the problem...
733 2014-06-16 10:02:11 <sipa> that sounds acceptable :p
734 2014-06-16 10:02:23 <WalletMigrator> 2014-06-16 09:50:00 block index 32460ms
735 2014-06-16 10:02:24 <WalletMigrator> :-/
736 2014-06-16 10:02:55 <WalletMigrator> and last time:
737 2014-06-16 10:02:56 <WalletMigrator> 2014-06-16 09:24:13 Verifying last 288 blocks at level 3 2014-06-16 09:38:22 No coin database inconsistencies in last 114 blocks (39253 transactions) 2014-06-16 09:38:23 block index 1119410ms
738 2014-06-16 10:03:05 <sipa> what hardware?
739 2014-06-16 10:03:08 <WalletMigrator> why does the block index take a long time
740 2014-06-16 10:03:16 <WalletMigrator> i7-3610QM
741 2014-06-16 10:03:18 <WalletMigrator> 8gb ram
742 2014-06-16 10:03:27 <sipa> what disk/os/fs?
743 2014-06-16 10:03:55 <WalletMigrator> win7, ntfs afaik
744 2014-06-16 10:04:00 <WalletMigrator> hd that came in the laptop
745 2014-06-16 10:04:19 <gmaxwell> perhaps some crazy AV is breaking it.
746 2014-06-16 10:04:21 <WalletMigrator> 750gb, idk what model
747 2014-06-16 10:04:34 <gmaxwell> because, cold cache here: 2014-06-16 08:42:42 block index 16254ms
748 2014-06-16 10:04:38 <WalletMigrator> hm, this time just now it only took 30 secs
749 2014-06-16 10:04:44 <WalletMigrator> last time it toom 1119 :/
750 2014-06-16 10:04:46 <WalletMigrator> took
751 2014-06-16 10:04:52 <sipa> well you can decrease the selfcheck depth with -checkblocks=N (to only verify N blocks, but 0 means all, so use at least 1)
752 2014-06-16 10:05:04 <sipa> but if that's so slow, i think it's indicative of another problem
753 2014-06-16 10:05:29 dipendra has joined
754 2014-06-16 10:05:33 <WalletMigrator> searching through debug.log from the end i see it's usually in the high 6 or low 7 digits of ms
755 2014-06-16 10:05:47 <ubuntuDoubts_> this sudo apt get-upgrade seems to be hardcore :O keeps runnin x)
756 2014-06-16 10:05:58 <sipa> ubuntuDoubts_: #ubuntu, please
757 2014-06-16 10:06:10 drizztbsd has joined
758 2014-06-16 10:06:14 <WalletMigrator> 1st of 7 digits is usualy one
759 2014-06-16 10:06:22 <WalletMigrator> but there was a three in there somewhere
760 2014-06-16 10:06:23 <drizztbsd> hi, is 0.9.2 version released yet?
761 2014-06-16 10:06:28 <sipa> drizztbsd: very soon
762 2014-06-16 10:06:49 <drizztbsd> since someone opened me a ticket with "v0.9.2 was released today (14 Jun)"
763 2014-06-16 10:06:51 <drizztbsd> lol
764 2014-06-16 10:06:58 <michagogo> Who are you?
765 2014-06-16 10:07:04 <michagogo> (what kind of ticket?)
766 2014-06-16 10:07:13 IGHOR has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
767 2014-06-16 10:07:16 <drizztbsd> version update for the archlinux package
768 2014-06-16 10:07:20 <michagogo> It was tagged a few days ago, yeah
769 2014-06-16 10:07:26 IGHOR has joined
770 2014-06-16 10:07:46 <michagogo> You can already get the v0.9.2 code and build your package
771 2014-06-16 10:08:03 <michagogo> (though you may want to hold off on pushing it out until we release)
772 2014-06-16 10:08:24 <michagogo> BTW, what changes to the package do you make?
773 2014-06-16 10:08:34 <michagogo> e.g. do you use system leveldb?
774 2014-06-16 10:09:05 <WalletMigrator> sipa: is there a way to analyze and see what might be taking it a long time?
775 2014-06-16 10:09:24 <drizztbsd> yes, I had to use system-based bdb (so, no compatibility with other wallets)
776 2014-06-16 10:10:42 <michagogo> odd, bdb isn't listed as a dep on the package pages
777 2014-06-16 10:11:34 <michagogo> and why doesn't bitcoin-qt list openssl? o_O
778 2014-06-16 10:14:24 epscy has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
779 2014-06-16 10:14:34 <drizztbsd> indirect deps by qt4
780 2014-06-16 10:14:52 lclc has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
781 2014-06-16 10:15:29 <michagogo> Ah
782 2014-06-16 10:15:57 <michagogo> Ah, I found your package build script (https://projects.archlinux.org/svntogit/community.git/tree/trunk/PKGBUILD?h=packages/bitcoin)
783 2014-06-16 10:16:28 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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791 2014-06-16 10:31:09 <WalletMigrator> So how can I flush the keypool and make it start using compressed addresses after I upgrade the wallet? Will reencrypting with a different passphrase do that?
792 2014-06-16 10:31:18 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
793 2014-06-16 10:31:39 epscy has joined
794 2014-06-16 10:32:06 <wumpus> in principle encrypting flushes the keypool, but changing the passphrase doesn't have that effect
795 2014-06-16 10:32:21 <wumpus> (as it doesn't 'reencrypt')
796 2014-06-16 10:32:41 <WalletMigrator> so is there a way to do it
797 2014-06-16 10:32:41 <WalletMigrator> ?
798 2014-06-16 10:32:45 <sipa> not really
799 2014-06-16 10:33:16 <wumpus> call 'getrawchangeaddress' until you get a compressed address
800 2014-06-16 10:34:06 <WalletMigrator> erm, that might take a while...
801 2014-06-16 10:34:13 <WalletMigrator> keypool=2000
802 2014-06-16 10:34:29 <WalletMigrator> and how do I know if it's compressed? validateaddress it?
803 2014-06-16 10:34:50 <sipa> yup
804 2014-06-16 10:35:09 <WalletMigrator> what do the keypool reserve and release lines mean in the log?
805 2014-06-16 10:35:15 <WalletMigrator> specifically, the numbers?
806 2014-06-16 10:35:25 <sipa> give an example?
807 2014-06-16 10:35:52 <WalletMigrator> keypool reserve 238
808 2014-06-16 10:35:56 <WalletMigrator> s/release/keep/
809 2014-06-16 10:36:20 <WalletMigrator> when I ran getrawchangeaddress it said keypool reserve 238 and then keypool keep 238
810 2014-06-16 10:37:10 erasmospunk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
811 2014-06-16 10:38:21 <WalletMigrator> is 60000 the current wallet version?
812 2014-06-16 10:38:26 mmatthew_43 has joined
813 2014-06-16 10:38:40 <WalletMigrator> oh, wow -- i forgot
814 2014-06-16 10:38:56 <WalletMigrator> right now, the configured keypool in the file is 2000
815 2014-06-16 10:38:59 <WalletMigrator> but according to getinfo
816 2014-06-16 10:39:04 <WalletMigrator> "keypoolsize"=>9943
817 2014-06-16 10:39:46 <sipa> you set it to 10000 once?
818 2014-06-16 10:39:53 <WalletMigrator> apparently
819 2014-06-16 10:40:08 <WalletMigrator> and keypoololdest is about 14 months ago
820 2014-06-16 10:41:26 <wumpus> ... may be easier to just start a new wallet and send over the funds
821 2014-06-16 10:44:22 erasmospunk has joined
822 2014-06-16 10:44:44 <WalletMigrator> I made a thin
823 2014-06-16 10:44:44 <WalletMigrator> g
824 2014-06-16 10:44:45 <WalletMigrator> https://zerobin.net/?ed66b2a54e9f3f61#SBbeHaat/t8errrjfHXNqvPg1urb/+9+KtaWc4nW6lc=
825 2014-06-16 10:45:39 oPen_syLar has joined
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827 2014-06-16 10:45:40 oPen_syLar has joined
828 2014-06-16 10:46:42 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
829 2014-06-16 10:46:50 <WalletMigrator> Slight revision: https://zerobin.net/?f75840bcd5b10b73#TOiFQT+Ojj74n867POvOpJxeM0BvVOTLXkfbq6q4rT8=
830 2014-06-16 10:47:07 <WalletMigrator> oops
831 2014-06-16 10:47:12 Lexa has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
832 2014-06-16 10:47:16 pierre` has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
833 2014-06-16 10:47:37 <WalletMigrator> https://zerobin.net/?852b426fb2cc2e70#9axQzlG6BdvS4CA9ZhZgeyZR4NLXS2NiL6WeJxQ66bU=
834 2014-06-16 10:48:04 _yoy_ has joined
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836 2014-06-16 10:48:39 Lexa has joined
837 2014-06-16 10:49:36 <WalletMigrator> Oh, and had to add an @ to bitcoin and addresses_checked to increase the scope
838 2014-06-16 10:50:25 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
839 2014-06-16 10:50:38 <sipa> what language is that?
840 2014-06-16 10:50:42 <WalletMigrator> ruby
841 2014-06-16 10:50:53 <sipa> oh, ok
842 2014-06-16 10:51:07 <WalletMigrator> why?
843 2014-06-16 10:51:19 abrkn has joined
844 2014-06-16 10:51:31 <sipa> because i didn't recognize it
845 2014-06-16 10:51:34 <michagogo> WalletMigrator: Is that the RPC code from the wiki? I think I use that too
846 2014-06-16 10:51:50 <WalletMigrator> michagogo: yes
847 2014-06-16 10:52:01 <WalletMigrator> checked 5300 so far
848 2014-06-16 10:52:10 johnsoft has joined
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850 2014-06-16 10:52:22 <WalletMigrator> so what is the keypool reserve and keypool keep stuff?
851 2014-06-16 10:52:36 <WalletMigrator> and the numbers after them?
852 2014-06-16 10:52:59 <sipa> the # of the keypool entry being used
853 2014-06-16 10:53:23 <sipa> and keep means that it's marked as permanently used, so no longer available for future key requests
854 2014-06-16 10:53:29 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
855 2014-06-16 10:53:41 <WalletMigrator> hm, is there a way to remove them from the wallet?
856 2014-06-16 10:53:42 <sipa> the # goes us sequentially... it's not the size of the keypool, just the how many'th key to have been added to it
857 2014-06-16 10:53:45 <sipa> no
858 2014-06-16 10:53:58 <sipa> removing keys is very dangerous...
859 2014-06-16 10:54:12 <WalletMigrator> Right, but in this case I know that these keys have never been used
860 2014-06-16 10:54:14 <sipa> you can try using dumpwallet, manually removing them, and then importwallet into a different one
861 2014-06-16 10:54:17 mmatthew_43 has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
862 2014-06-16 10:54:29 <WalletMigrator> hm, something might be wrong
863 2014-06-16 10:54:48 <WalletMigrator> The ruby script hit the 10k mark and stopped
864 2014-06-16 10:55:03 <WalletMigrator> 2014-06-16 10:50:34 CReserveKey::GetReservedKey(): Warning: Using default key instead of a new key, top up your keypool!
865 2014-06-16 10:55:15 <WalletMigrator> What does that mean?
866 2014-06-16 10:55:23 <sipa> that you ran out
867 2014-06-16 10:55:27 <WalletMigrator> uh
868 2014-06-16 10:55:36 <WalletMigrator> getrawchangeaddress is returning the same address multiple times
869 2014-06-16 10:55:38 <sipa> if the wallet is encrypted, the keypool can't be refilled automatically
870 2014-06-16 10:55:47 <WalletMigrator> should it not fail?
871 2014-06-16 10:55:56 <WalletMigrator> ah, I see
872 2014-06-16 10:56:12 <WalletMigrator> whoa
873 2014-06-16 10:56:16 <WalletMigrator> entered walletpassphrase
874 2014-06-16 10:56:18 <WalletMigrator> lots of log spam
875 2014-06-16 10:56:21 <sipa> :D
876 2014-06-16 10:56:32 <WalletMigrator> guessing 2000 lines of it ;p
877 2014-06-16 10:57:17 <WalletMigrator> "iscompressed" : true
878 2014-06-16 10:57:17 oPen_syLar has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
879 2014-06-16 10:57:18 <WalletMigrator> \o/
880 2014-06-16 10:57:44 <WalletMigrator> and indeed, running the ruby script it exists right away
881 2014-06-16 10:57:51 benrcole has joined
882 2014-06-16 10:57:57 <WalletMigrator> Hm, wallet doesn't seem to have grown
883 2014-06-16 10:58:13 <WalletMigrator> debug.log, otoh, is 164 MB
884 2014-06-16 10:59:02 <WalletMigrator> Why did the wallet not grow?
885 2014-06-16 10:59:40 <WalletMigrator> Keys: 0 plaintext, 12### encrypted, 2005 w/ metadata, 12### total
886 2014-06-16 10:59:45 <WalletMigrator> what's metadata?
887 2014-06-16 11:00:00 <WalletMigrator> also
888 2014-06-16 11:00:01 <WalletMigrator> 2014-06-16 10:55:09 Verifying last 288 blocks at level 3 2014-06-16 10:55:25 No coin database inconsistencies in last 124 blocks (39054 transactions)
889 2014-06-16 11:00:11 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
890 2014-06-16 11:00:12 <WalletMigrator> Why does it say it's verifying 288, and then say nothing wrong in last 124?
891 2014-06-16 11:00:54 <wumpus> maybe there are no last 288 blocks
892 2014-06-16 11:01:00 <WalletMigrator> wtf?
893 2014-06-16 11:01:13 <WalletMigrator> there are 306120, aren't there?
894 2014-06-16 11:01:31 <WalletMigrator> I'm all synced up
895 2014-06-16 11:01:34 <wumpus> ok
896 2014-06-16 11:02:10 <WalletMigrator> what's metadata, though, in the context of those keys?
897 2014-06-16 11:02:13 <wumpus> no clue then, you could debug it I suppose, probably the counter is increased in the wrong place in the loop
898 2014-06-16 11:02:50 harding has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
899 2014-06-16 11:03:05 <wumpus> information about the key (what it's used for, etc)
900 2014-06-16 11:03:12 <WalletMigrator> (and why the hell did the wallet not get bigger?)
901 2014-06-16 11:03:26 <WalletMigrator> Is that metadata something else enabled by upgradewallet?
902 2014-06-16 11:03:44 <wumpus> it just dealt out keys from the keypool
903 2014-06-16 11:03:55 <wumpus> as your new keypool setting is much lower, it didn't generate many new ones
904 2014-06-16 11:04:02 <WalletMigrator> wumpus, I exhausted the keypool
905 2014-06-16 11:04:24 <WalletMigrator> I drew nearly 10000 keys, until it was giving me the error and returning the same key over and over
906 2014-06-16 11:04:38 <WalletMigrator> Then I unlocked the wallet and was treated to 2000 lines of spam as it refilled the keypool
907 2014-06-16 11:05:39 ThomasV has joined
908 2014-06-16 11:07:13 <WalletMigrator> And yet it's the same file size as before... wtf?
909 2014-06-16 11:07:29 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
910 2014-06-16 11:07:44 <wumpus> is there an actual problem?
911 2014-06-16 11:07:50 <WalletMigrator> Well, maybe
912 2014-06-16 11:07:57 <WalletMigrator> When I generate 2000 keys
913 2014-06-16 11:08:01 <WalletMigrator> the wallet should get bigger
914 2014-06-16 11:08:12 <WalletMigrator> If it doesn't, that strongly suggests something's wrong, does it not?
915 2014-06-16 11:08:30 HaltingState has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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917 2014-06-16 11:09:02 <wumpus> it's a database file, berkeleydb somehow manages the space in it, probably not in entirely predictable way
918 2014-06-16 11:09:15 <WalletMigrator> Odd.
919 2014-06-16 11:09:47 <WalletMigrator> But that seems like a bug to me...
920 2014-06-16 11:09:51 <wumpus> there are some berkeleydb utilities to dump and create databases, you can use those to 'compact' the database, but I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish
921 2014-06-16 11:10:01 <WalletMigrator> Giving one key over and over again when the keypool depletes?
922 2014-06-16 11:10:12 <WalletMigrator> It should really just fail
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924 2014-06-16 11:12:52 <wumpus> yes, it should
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949 2014-06-16 11:57:45 <ubuntuDoubts> Hi again :)
950 2014-06-16 11:57:58 <ubuntuDoubts> Im getting a problem when compiling - -qt.
951 2014-06-16 11:58:10 <ubuntuDoubts> the deamon was sucessuful!
952 2014-06-16 11:59:01 <ubuntuDoubts> But now my compilation of -qt cancels and says: miniupnpc/miniwget.h: No such file or directory
953 2014-06-16 11:59:12 <ubuntuDoubts> Does anyone here knows what can cause that ?
954 2014-06-16 11:59:23 <ubuntuDoubts> Or it is related with previous commands ?
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959 2014-06-16 12:04:13 <ubuntuDoubts> <ubuntuDoubts> Hi again :) [12:54] <ubuntuDoubts> Im getting a problem when compiling - -qt. [12:54] <ubuntuDoubts> the deamon was sucessuful! [12:55] <ubuntuDoubts> But now my compilation of -qt cancels and says: miniupnpc/miniwget.h: No such file or directory [12:55] <ubuntuDoubts> Does anyone here knows what can cause that ? [12:55] <ubuntuDoubts> Or it is related with previous commands ?
960 2014-06-16 12:04:36 djcoin_ has quit (Quit: djcoin_)
961 2014-06-16 12:05:50 <chichov> how quickly can one send a second transaction spending an output from a previous transaction?
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970 2014-06-16 12:11:54 <wumpus> ubuntuDoubts: you need the miniupnpc dependency
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972 2014-06-16 12:12:17 <wumpus> chichov: immediately, although chains of unconfirmed transactions can be fragile
973 2014-06-16 12:12:49 <ubuntuDoubts> and that dependencie wasnt necessary on compiling deamon ?
974 2014-06-16 12:12:52 <ubuntuDoubts> Just on qt ?
975 2014-06-16 12:12:59 <chichov> wumpus: so, I could send them both out at the same time? I don't have to wait until the first one is confirmed or anything?
976 2014-06-16 12:13:03 <wumpus> ubuntuDoubts: it should be needed for both
977 2014-06-16 12:13:13 hearn has joined
978 2014-06-16 12:13:23 <wumpus> chichov: you don't need to wait, though if you want to send two transactions at the same time it's better to use sendmany
979 2014-06-16 12:13:28 <kinlo> chichov: those questions are more for #bitcoin, we'll answer them there :)
980 2014-06-16 12:13:43 <chichov> alright, thank you!
981 2014-06-16 12:14:07 <ubuntuDoubts> thanks wumpus :)
982 2014-06-16 12:14:20 <ubuntuDoubts> atleast you all gave me a way !
983 2014-06-16 12:14:22 debiantoruser has joined
984 2014-06-16 12:14:22 <ubuntuDoubts> Thanks all.
985 2014-06-16 12:16:47 JackH has joined
986 2014-06-16 12:19:35 <ubuntuDoubts> wumpus, done already,..
987 2014-06-16 12:19:45 <ubuntuDoubts> I had already deamon and qt runin !
988 2014-06-16 12:19:51 Benjami__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
989 2014-06-16 12:20:02 <ubuntuDoubts> NExt step will be the gitian then.. It will compile for MAC and Windows right ?
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1028 2014-06-16 13:25:35 <hearn> sigh
1029 2014-06-16 13:25:39 <hearn> writing unit tests for bitcoin core is impossible
1030 2014-06-16 13:27:45 <drizztbsd> why?
1031 2014-06-16 13:28:33 <hearn> there's just no infrastructure and the entire app wasn't written with unit testing in mind
1032 2014-06-16 13:28:41 <hearn> i suspect satoshi has never worked on any codebase that has unit tests
1033 2014-06-16 13:29:00 <hearn> every time i try and make things better i end up stuck in a rats nest of things that are basically impossible to reinitialise without tearing down the entire app and restarting it
1034 2014-06-16 13:29:12 <hearn> and then i run out of time
1035 2014-06-16 13:29:39 <hearn> e.g. there is only one file that makes a test block chain. and there's no way to do it in any other file!
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1037 2014-06-16 13:30:05 <wumpus> that's not only annoying for unit testing, I've thought about implementing partial initialize/shutdown for differents parts a few times, but never got around to it
1038 2014-06-16 13:30:08 <hearn> because that test will fail if any other test has made blocks beforehand. and if you want to reset the block chain to the starting state, it can't be easily done because so much stuff is in disk files and random global variables.
1039 2014-06-16 13:30:48 <hearn> i just tried to fix this and stopped when i realised i'd have to delete the entire temp directory and rebuild the wallet from scratch too, basically, redo what the current global fixture does (and reset lots of random variables that are currently file-private etc).
1040 2014-06-16 13:31:00 <wumpus> the RPC tests in qa/rpc-tests do that
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1042 2014-06-16 13:31:27 <wumpus> they create entirely new data directories to test around with and wipe them afterwards
1043 2014-06-16 13:31:29 <hearn> yes the regression testing framework is better. but i'm not adding an RPC, this is a p2p protocol change.
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1045 2014-06-16 13:31:50 <hearn> bitcoinj has a UnitTestParams chain params and an in-memory block store
1046 2014-06-16 13:31:57 <hearn> so it's easy to set up test chains and throw them away
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1048 2014-06-16 13:32:01 <hearn> something like that would be nice
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1050 2014-06-16 13:32:12 <hearn> then we could start testing the p2p protocol. currently ProcessMessages is huge and entirely untested.
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1063 2014-06-16 13:48:18 <CoinHeavy> Why is the âaddressesâ field for a transaction (via `bitcoind getrawtransaction <txid> 1`) plural? I would guess that this is to nicely display multisig transaction addresses but perhaps I am wrong.
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1065 2014-06-16 13:49:22 <CoinHeavy> I canât find an example transaction with more than one address listed in the âaddressesâ field of a single vout or I would provide one for demonstration. If anyone has one handly please share it for reference.
1066 2014-06-16 13:51:58 <hearn_> sipa: in rpcrawtransaction.cpp what's the purpose of the loop on line 592? it seems to do CCoinsViewMemPool::GetCoins on each input, but it throws away all the results. The comment says /// this is certainly allowed to fail, but failure is not tested anywhere.
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1089 2014-06-16 14:36:44 <sipa> CoinHeavy: it was indeed intended for multisig, but it's unlikely you'll ever see more than 1 address
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1091 2014-06-16 14:38:06 <gavinandresen> Iâm worried about feesâ¦. : http://bitcoincore.org/smartfee/fee_graph.html
1092 2014-06-16 14:40:49 <Jouke> That is not a problem, the mining-place is a free market with a lot of competition. Wait.
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1097 2014-06-16 14:44:06 <gavinandresen> Jouke: Iâm worried because it looks like sending with default Bitcoin Core transaction fees, your transaction will take anywhere from 2 to 11 blocks to confirm.
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1099 2014-06-16 14:46:06 <drizztbsd> I love feeless :D
1100 2014-06-16 14:46:25 <gavinandresen> Mining is a free market, but wallets need to be much smarter about fees and need to give users the choice between fast-and-expensive or eventually-but-cheaper
1101 2014-06-16 14:47:05 <gavinandresen> fee-less graph looks better: http://bitcoincore.org/smartfee/priority_graph.html
1102 2014-06-16 14:47:10 <bsm117532> I don't understand why fees aren't automatically calculated.
1103 2014-06-16 14:47:34 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1104 2014-06-16 14:47:42 <bsm117532> You could make a pretty good model using the difficulty.
1105 2014-06-16 14:47:45 <gavinandresen> bsm117532: please help review/test https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4250
1106 2014-06-16 14:48:11 <bsm117532> Nice. thanks.
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1108 2014-06-16 14:49:06 <bsm117532> Regarding this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4345
1109 2014-06-16 14:50:23 <bsm117532> I woke up this morning to bitcoind off in lala land with orphaned blocks. (with v0.9.2) This is what happened before, but at least it's not crashing like HEAD.
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1153 2014-06-16 15:55:53 <hearn> sipa: oh never mind. this loop is loading stuff into the cache isn't it
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1161 2014-06-16 16:03:47 <sipa> hearn: right, that's possible (no looking at the code now)
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1173 2014-06-16 16:18:37 <Tykling> does anyone know if it is possible to include an amount in the google charts qr code generator ? https://chart.googleapis.com/chart?chs=300x300&cht=qr&chl=1E6KirnMRCD5sTGUk8jQLRdSqabDk3W6Kt
1174 2014-06-16 16:18:51 <Tykling> sorry for the way off topic question
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1190 2014-06-16 16:44:16 <dabura667> Sanity check: when the block reward runs out, the block reward will be 1 satoshi... am I correct?
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1193 2014-06-16 16:44:38 <Emcy> no
1194 2014-06-16 16:44:39 <hearn> dabura667: no, it rounds to zero eventually
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1196 2014-06-16 16:45:07 <Emcy> the reward will be a figure below the current 8 decimal places of the system, so its rounds to 0
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1198 2014-06-16 16:45:57 <dabura667> sorry, english sucks. the last block reward before the first block with no reward will have a reward of 1 satoshi. Right? I am looking to find the reward of the last block with any reward on it.
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1200 2014-06-16 16:46:50 <sipa> yes, 1 satoshi
1201 2014-06-16 16:47:01 <dabura667> ok, thanks
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1206 2014-06-16 16:48:40 <gavinandresen> Iâm less worried about fees now, fixed a bug in the fee graph generating code (thatâll teach me to trust code I outsource to somebody else to write....)
1207 2014-06-16 16:48:58 <deego> ++
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1209 2014-06-16 16:50:45 <hearn> hi there
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1213 2014-06-16 16:50:58 <hearn> gavinandresen: what does it look like now? url?
1214 2014-06-16 16:51:32 <gavinandresen> hearn: http://bitcoincore.org/smartfee/fee_graph.html
1215 2014-06-16 16:52:26 <hearn> nice. although IMHO the graph is still not entirely meaningful. 100% of transactions i make with the min fee confirm immediately in practice, so the higher values are coming from irrational actors. but i don't have a good solution to that
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1218 2014-06-16 16:52:39 <hearn> we start with a broken market, smartfees is a way to fix it .... a->b :)
1219 2014-06-16 16:53:15 <gavinandresen> hearn: 100% of transactions I make are confirming quickly because of priority....
1220 2014-06-16 16:53:36 <gavinandresen> hearn: Iâm graphing priority needed to confirm, too: http://bitcoincore.org/smartfee/priority_graph.html
1221 2014-06-16 16:53:40 <hearn> ah ha
1222 2014-06-16 16:53:47 <hearn> i have no idea what priority my transactions have :)
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1224 2014-06-16 16:53:58 <hearn> but yes good point. i do not really know if i need to attach fees at all
1225 2014-06-16 16:54:03 <dabura667> hearn: I spend coins frequently after first confirm, and 0.0001 BTC is usually enough to get me in the next 1 or 2 block
1226 2014-06-16 16:54:05 <gavinandresen> hearn: yes, it is hard to get a handle on priority
1227 2014-06-16 16:54:20 <hearn> bitcoinj always does because the alternative is to get dropped into the tiny 25kb (or whatever it is) bucket space and that's often kinda full
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1229 2014-06-16 16:54:23 <dabura667> usually they are sub-10mBTC
1230 2014-06-16 16:54:45 <hearn> there's no way to know how full it is though, so, always paying the fee makes sense
1231 2014-06-16 16:54:54 <helo> so users will ultimately be presented with a slider to move between confirmation due to priority or fee?
1232 2014-06-16 16:55:01 <hearn> i wonder what happened on june 11th
1233 2014-06-16 16:55:08 <hearn> helo: yeah. sort of. we think. maybe. sometimes.
1234 2014-06-16 16:55:23 <hearn> helo: we're still figuring it out. the merchant case is different to the person-to-person case, i think
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1236 2014-06-16 16:55:51 <gavinandresen> helo: I think users should be given a slider âhow quickly do you want this to confirmâ. Then wallets figure out whether or not zero-fee will confirm that quickly. If not, how much fee to include.
1237 2014-06-16 16:55:53 <hearn> we need to extend BIP70 so bitpay/coinbase/etc can say what fee they want attached. otherwise you could buy your proverbial coffee with a tx that has no fee and low priority, then try and double spend it
1238 2014-06-16 16:56:09 <hearn> (or it just gets stuck and then causes a support issue for them)
1239 2014-06-16 16:56:13 <hearn> (which is what happens today)
1240 2014-06-16 16:56:26 <gavinandresen> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4250 implements -txconfirmtarget to set it for bitcoind users
1241 2014-06-16 16:57:07 <hearn> do you intend to do the Qt GUI slider?
1242 2014-06-16 16:57:12 <gavinandresen> hearn: nope
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1245 2014-06-16 16:58:46 <hearn> that might be a nice project for a newbie who wants to get involved?
1246 2014-06-16 16:59:02 <hearn> try posting it to the mailing list and/or tweeting/g+ing or something. perhaps someone will pluck up the courage to make it their starter project
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1250 2014-06-16 17:01:24 <gavinandresen> hearn: good idea
1251 2014-06-16 17:03:35 <dabura667> I wonder... with this smartfee implementation... will fees really go down if/when transaction volume goes up?
1252 2014-06-16 17:04:11 <gavinandresen> no, fees will go up if/when transaction volumes goes up. Fees will go down if/when miners decide to make their blocks bigger.
1253 2014-06-16 17:04:25 <dabura667> I see...
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1255 2014-06-16 17:05:23 <dabura667> so that's considered a separate issue from smartfees then... smartfees is solely to correct the default fee to match the market...
1256 2014-06-16 17:05:50 <hearn> right now we don't have a fees market
1257 2014-06-16 17:05:59 <hearn> the goal of smartfees is to allow fees to rise and fall in line with demand for block space
1258 2014-06-16 17:06:37 <hearn> of course getting from a broken non-market to a fluid, competitive, well working market is going to be .... tricky. even if all wallets have the slider, the next problem we'll face is that mining is not at all competitive, and for prices to fall, we need miners to be competing on price
1259 2014-06-16 17:06:51 <hearn> when one pool is building half of all blocks, they obviously have huge market heft.
1260 2014-06-16 17:07:03 <hearn> so it's going to take a while to arrive at our utopian end state
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1262 2014-06-16 17:07:43 * hearn -> out
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1294 2014-06-16 17:33:47 <chichov> are there any methods that return the 20 byte hash from an address without(!) the version byte?
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1309 2014-06-16 17:50:38 <skinnkavaj> gavinandresen: No action against pooled mining? Have you looked at all the proposals posted as solutions?
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1312 2014-06-16 17:51:48 <skinnkavaj> Even maaku had an idea about if I remember correctly
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1314 2014-06-16 17:52:59 <maaku> skinnkavaj: well my proposal is that miners should be using the tools already available to them: p2pool & GBT
1315 2014-06-16 17:53:39 <maaku> this wouldn't be a problem if miners were actually informed and intelligent
1316 2014-06-16 17:54:01 <maaku> they are leaving money on the table by pooling with the likes of ghash.io
1317 2014-06-16 17:54:26 <skinnkavaj> maaku: Or if gavinandresen explained about in his recent blog post instead of just saying "Yes mining centralzation is bad", while not posting any advice whatsoever.
1318 2014-06-16 17:55:19 <Emcy> maaku how do you design an incentive system when you cant count on at the very least economic rationality?
1319 2014-06-16 17:55:28 <maaku> Emcy: :(
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1321 2014-06-16 17:55:37 <gavinandresen> skinnkavaj: Hereâs what I wrote to a reporter this morning: Longer term, there is lots of interest in making mining less centralized, and several projects starting up trying to tackle the problem with different approaches.
1322 2014-06-16 17:55:38 <gavinandresen> Like just about everything in Bitcoin, expect a messy, chaotic, trial-and-error process that is not guaranteed to fix the problem-- but is, I believe, a better way to find solutions rather than a top-down "We are smarter than you so just do what we say" approach.
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1325 2014-06-16 17:55:46 <Emcy> if we design one that counts on laziness, we would be golden
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1328 2014-06-16 17:56:21 <skinnkavaj> gavinandresen: Isn't this the time an organization like the The Bitcoin Foundation should act and suggest what to do?
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1330 2014-06-16 17:56:35 <mr_burdell> I've been tracking pools here: http://mempool.info/pools
1331 2014-06-16 17:56:39 <gavinandresen> skinnkavaj: what makes you think the Foundation is smarter than everybody else?
1332 2014-06-16 17:56:40 <mr_burdell> similar to blockchain's info
1333 2014-06-16 17:56:44 <Emcy> seems like reasonable comment gavinandresen
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1335 2014-06-16 17:57:02 <Emcy> though if there is a workable solution from the intelligentsia, we should do it
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1337 2014-06-16 17:57:10 <gavinandresen> Emcy: who is âweâ ???
1338 2014-06-16 17:57:10 <skinnkavaj> gavinandresen: maaku just posted good suggestions, you could atleast suggest them in your blog.
1339 2014-06-16 17:57:16 <Emcy> you
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1341 2014-06-16 17:57:18 <gmaxwell> BCF doesn't really appear to have substantial mining expertiseâ that was part of Luke's platform (having more involvement with people with mining expertise) and the constitutency didn't buy itâ it seems.
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1344 2014-06-16 17:57:40 <Emcy> maybe wumpus
1345 2014-06-16 17:57:41 <Emcy> maybe gmax
1346 2014-06-16 17:57:47 <Emcy> anyone who can do the pull req
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1349 2014-06-16 17:58:09 <skinnkavaj> If what is true, what maaku is saying that the miners are stupid. Is because they are not educated. And none of the developers suggest a suggestion.
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1351 2014-06-16 17:58:24 <skinnkavaj> solution*
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1353 2014-06-16 17:58:55 <Emcy> education is a big issue
1354 2014-06-16 17:58:56 <sipa> of course advise and education are useful, but the system should work without people telling others what to do :)
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1356 2014-06-16 17:59:09 <skinnkavaj> sipa: Obviously it doesnt when a pool reaches 51%
1357 2014-06-16 17:59:11 <Emcy> more than that, forces out there are deliberately misleading newbs
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1359 2014-06-16 17:59:17 <gavinandresen> skinnkavaj: ummm⦠I did say âif you are mining with GHash.IO I would strongly urge you to try one of the smaller pools, or, even better, take the time to run bitcoind and p2pool.â
1360 2014-06-16 17:59:59 <gavinandresen> skinnkavaj: ⦠which is the right short-term solution. Long-term solutions I stand by the âlet a thousand flowers bloomâ approach. Encourage people to try lots of different things, see what works.
1361 2014-06-16 18:00:18 <Emcy> sipa its a bit like saying democracy should work when everyone has their thumb up thier asses
1362 2014-06-16 18:00:22 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: education is indeed an issue, but it's a question of time. The information is easily available, but in my expirence people with large amounts of hashpower have their time completely filled by other considerations.
1363 2014-06-16 18:00:23 <Emcy> it patently doesnt
1364 2014-06-16 18:00:32 <skinnkavaj> gavinandresen: What I got from your post was just that you think mining centralation is bad, not any solution. I would love to see a new blogpost with a headline "How we fix the mining centralzation" or something like that.
1365 2014-06-16 18:00:45 <gmaxwell> There is no one tidy answer.
1366 2014-06-16 18:00:48 <gavinandresen> skinnkavaj: youâre not listening. I donât know how to fix mining centralization.
1367 2014-06-16 18:00:58 <gwillen> gmaxwell: it's frustrating that people with a lot of hashpower actually believe they are increasing their expected return rate by hashing with the largest available pool
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1369 2014-06-16 18:01:10 <gwillen> gmaxwell: some education on this might or might not help
1370 2014-06-16 18:01:17 <gmaxwell> If there were, it would have been already solved. From a low level technical perspective p2pool already completely solves it... and yet it hasn't.
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1372 2014-06-16 18:01:22 <skinnkavaj> gwillen: See, thats what I want gavinandresen to say in his post.
1373 2014-06-16 18:01:25 <skinnkavaj> Thats the education he could give.
1374 2014-06-16 18:01:28 <gwillen> skinnkavaj: right
1375 2014-06-16 18:01:41 <Emcy> what if people just knew they would get more moeny on p2pool
1376 2014-06-16 18:01:47 <Emcy> even over 100% sometimes
1377 2014-06-16 18:01:51 <Emcy> its that simple
1378 2014-06-16 18:01:51 <skinnkavaj> Emcy: See. There we go
1379 2014-06-16 18:01:57 <skinnkavaj> Obviously miners need to learn that
1380 2014-06-16 18:02:10 <skinnkavaj> If it would come from Gavin or TBF, that would be a credible source for miners.
1381 2014-06-16 18:02:13 <gavinandresen> mmm. Weâre getting into âGavin is smarter than the people who are actually DOING ITâ ⦠which I donât believe.
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1384 2014-06-16 18:02:36 <gwillen> Emcy: ... is that actually true? (What causes that?) Or is that a proposal for something that could be done?
1385 2014-06-16 18:02:37 <Emcy> not smarter perhaps, better informed
1386 2014-06-16 18:02:50 <Emcy> gwillen p2pool garners donations sometimes
1387 2014-06-16 18:02:52 <gmaxwell> Because at the moment p2pool hashrate is low enough that it's easy for people to have a bad expirenceâ e.g. start it up when the pool goes three days without a blockâ and freak out.
1388 2014-06-16 18:02:55 <gwillen> Emcy: ahhhh, right
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1390 2014-06-16 18:03:16 <gavinandresen> I donât think Iâm better informed. I donât own any mining hardware, have never done any cloud hashing, donât visit the big mining pools.....
1391 2014-06-16 18:03:17 <Emcy> gmaxwell yes but then youre saying p2pool hasrate is low becuase its low
1392 2014-06-16 18:03:22 <gmaxwell> yes.
1393 2014-06-16 18:03:24 <Emcy> frustratingly circular
1394 2014-06-16 18:03:27 <mr_burdell> gmaxwell: the other issue is individual share variance on top of that
1395 2014-06-16 18:03:45 <Emcy> what if
1396 2014-06-16 18:03:47 <mr_burdell> at least for small miners
1397 2014-06-16 18:04:10 <Emcy> a large and civic minded pool slaved to p2pool for a while, to help with variance
1398 2014-06-16 18:04:19 <hearn> pushing using getblocktemplate with miner-chosen block contents rather than pool chosen would help
1399 2014-06-16 18:04:20 <Emcy> attract some actual p2pool miners
1400 2014-06-16 18:04:28 <Emcy> cut it loose when it gets 10% or whatever
1401 2014-06-16 18:04:32 <hearn> the pool could still try and force miners to fork the chain, i guess, but at least it's closer to the model people are used to
1402 2014-06-16 18:04:34 <Emcy> see if it can sustain
1403 2014-06-16 18:04:54 <mr_burdell> I'm trying to figure out who the pool is that has about 7% of the network, but doesn't tag their coinbase
1404 2014-06-16 18:04:59 <Emcy> maybe btcguild, the guy who runs that is decent
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1406 2014-06-16 18:05:24 <gmaxwell> hearn: no reason for them to provide anything other than the required coinbase txn.
1407 2014-06-16 18:05:42 <hearn> gwillen: i argued with a guy on reddit who strongly believed that he had to mine on ghash because when difficulty was rising, lower variance == more profit. i said that it doesn't make any difference, it'd even out, but he seemed absolutely convinced of this, and said if difficulty was constant he'd even mine solo. he seemed to have a decent chunk of hashpower
1408 2014-06-16 18:05:49 <mr_burdell> if a large pool was using p2pool, would smaller miners get any of their own shares?
1409 2014-06-16 18:05:52 <gwillen> hearn: tons of people believe this
1410 2014-06-16 18:05:55 <hearn> gwillen: so i wasn't sure what to say to that. i ended up doubting myself. i never did the maths myself, even.
1411 2014-06-16 18:05:57 <gmaxwell> (effectively p2pool is this /plus/ a distributed system to compute acceptable coinbase txn)
1412 2014-06-16 18:05:59 <gwillen> hearn: I think we may have beeen arguing with the same idiot even
1413 2014-06-16 18:06:08 <hearn> it was like miner1234 or something on reddit
1414 2014-06-16 18:06:23 <hearn> gmaxwell: oh, gbt can do that? i thought it provided the block to build on and you had to do that
1415 2014-06-16 18:06:25 <Emcy> i bet thats his password too
1416 2014-06-16 18:06:36 <gmaxwell> hearn: it's really hard to convince peopleâ when I've had success it's been based on using a thought expirement where I ask them to imagine that there would only ever be one more block.
1417 2014-06-16 18:06:36 <gwillen> hearn: miner8765
1418 2014-06-16 18:06:51 <gwillen> hearn: and yeah, same idiot
1419 2014-06-16 18:06:54 <hearn> yeah, ok
1420 2014-06-16 18:07:06 <hearn> i don't know how such beliefs take hold but they clearly do
1421 2014-06-16 18:07:20 <hearn> especially the qualification "only if difficulty is rising" threw me
1422 2014-06-16 18:07:20 <gwillen> poisson processes are _really_ hard
1423 2014-06-16 18:07:33 <gwillen> people don't understand the concept that the process has no 'progress'
1424 2014-06-16 18:07:43 <gmaxwell> hearn: The wire protocol can do itâ there is no client and server support for doing that yet... Luke has said he wants to implement more infrastructure for it, but I think it's on page 5 of his list.
1425 2014-06-16 18:07:46 <hearn> ah ok
1426 2014-06-16 18:08:00 <gwillen> hearn: it's because they think that if you have "bad luck" today, you can "make it up" with "good luck" tomorrow
1427 2014-06-16 18:08:06 agricocb has joined
1428 2014-06-16 18:08:19 <gwillen> hearn: but if difficulty is rising, your "good luck" tomorrow less than offsets your "bad luck" today, because your shares are worth less tomorrow
1429 2014-06-16 18:08:41 <Emcy> what is the highest %age of the network p2pool has ever had
1430 2014-06-16 18:08:44 <hearn> gavinandresen: i think the lowest hanging fruit for now would be a new section on bitcoin.org that has a slick visual design and simple 1.2.3. instructions for how to set up either p2pool or GBT mining. starting with "So, your shiny new ASIC arrived and you want to mine. Here we go ..."
1431 2014-06-16 18:08:46 <skinnkavaj> gavinandresen: I know you think mining will fix it self. I think the current ASIC race will fix it self. But mining pools is a different issue that will not fix itself. p2pool really needs a push. Excellent leadership would be if The Bitcoin foundation donated and/or released a blog post about p2pool.
1432 2014-06-16 18:08:50 <gwillen> it's hard to convince them this is not true because what's required is an entire change of framing to understand that "luck" and "making up for it" are bullshit and make no sense
1433 2014-06-16 18:09:02 <gmaxwell> yea, the fallacy is the 'offsetting' it's not offsetting... but notion of expectation in a non cumulative game is hard for people.
1434 2014-06-16 18:09:11 <gwillen> right
1435 2014-06-16 18:09:16 <hearn> because one thing i read constantly is that it's too complicated/too time consuming to set up the decentralised mining stuff
1436 2014-06-16 18:09:32 <gmaxwell> The P2Pool instructions are fairly simple nowâ http://p2pool.in/ at least
1437 2014-06-16 18:09:33 <gwillen> ==
1438 2014-06-16 18:09:35 <gavinandresen> skinnkavaj: the Foundation is already a sponsor of p2pool. A blog post about p2pool is a great idea, want to write one?
1439 2014-06-16 18:09:45 spinza has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1440 2014-06-16 18:09:46 <gwillen> sorry, that was == to hearn saying it's perceived as too complicated
1441 2014-06-16 18:09:46 <Emcy> >.in
1442 2014-06-16 18:09:51 <Emcy> this is a big part of the problem
1443 2014-06-16 18:09:51 Tiraspol has joined
1444 2014-06-16 18:10:08 <hearn> gmaxwell: someone was muttering about dependency hell - probably they were on linux? not sure. i never tried to set it up myself.
1445 2014-06-16 18:10:09 <gwillen> in fact, I never mined on p2pool myself because it was just easier to mine on slush
1446 2014-06-16 18:10:21 <skinnkavaj> gavinandresen: Maybe you could take help from gmaxwell to formulate a statement about p2pool for a blog post.
1447 2014-06-16 18:10:40 <gwillen> if anybody needs a test case for simple idiotproof p2pool instructions, I'm sitting here with an ASIC that's not doing anything
1448 2014-06-16 18:10:49 <gwillen> and I've never used p2pool :-)
1449 2014-06-16 18:10:54 <hearn> gwillen: following the current instructions on p2pool.in and seeing what happens would be a good start
1450 2014-06-16 18:11:00 * gwillen nod
1451 2014-06-16 18:11:18 <gwillen> those are the 'properly distributed' instructions, right? Not the 'pool that connects to p2pool' type?
1452 2014-06-16 18:11:20 <Emcy> wait do pooled miners need the blockchain?
1453 2014-06-16 18:11:26 maaku_ has joined
1454 2014-06-16 18:11:27 <gwillen> (I think many people don't understand that difference, also)
1455 2014-06-16 18:11:29 <Emcy> an up to date bitcoin core running?
1456 2014-06-16 18:11:29 <dabura667> yes
1457 2014-06-16 18:11:33 <dabura667> err
1458 2014-06-16 18:11:42 <Emcy> i cant remember
1459 2014-06-16 18:11:43 <dabura667> p2pool miners need blockchain
1460 2014-06-16 18:11:51 maaku has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1461 2014-06-16 18:12:09 <Emcy> no i think only the pool needs to run the node
1462 2014-06-16 18:12:12 <gwillen> hmmm, first complaint: no p2pool for OS X
1463 2014-06-16 18:12:27 <gwillen> (I'll live, I have a linux machine over there -->, but OS X is where I run my client normally.)
1464 2014-06-16 18:12:29 <gavinandresen> yes, I think the blockchain download/sync will be a big enough barrier that the majority of miners wonât bother. And the sysadmin cost of keeping three sets of software (mining ASIC software, p2pool, and bitcoind) up-to-date
1465 2014-06-16 18:12:32 <gmaxwell> hearn: on windows it's "click the exe" pretty much. On OSX it's dependency hell.
1466 2014-06-16 18:12:48 <Emcy> ok that there is a large disincentive agaisnt avoiding pools
1467 2014-06-16 18:12:59 <maaku_> gwillen: p2pool works fine on os x over here
1468 2014-06-16 18:13:04 maaku_ has left ()
1469 2014-06-16 18:13:08 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: maintaince costs are about a half hour a quarter I'd estimate...
1470 2014-06-16 18:13:16 <gwillen> er, I want to reply to maaku_ but maaku_ is gone?
1471 2014-06-16 18:13:17 soulblade738 has joined
1472 2014-06-16 18:13:24 <gwillen> anyway, the _instructions_ do not list OS X
1473 2014-06-16 18:13:29 sahlhoff has joined
1474 2014-06-16 18:13:29 <gwillen> so maybe it does run but I dunno how to run it
1475 2014-06-16 18:13:32 maaku has joined
1476 2014-06-16 18:13:34 impulse has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1477 2014-06-16 18:13:40 <hearn> ok
1478 2014-06-16 18:13:43 <hearn> fallen at the first hurdle
1479 2014-06-16 18:13:46 <gmaxwell> gwillen: it does.
1480 2014-06-16 18:13:46 <hearn> guess that's a useful data point :)
1481 2014-06-16 18:13:49 richcollins has joined
1482 2014-06-16 18:14:03 <hearn> i wonder if GBT mining with client-side tx selection is any easier to set up. i don't know where to find 123 instructions for that though
1483 2014-06-16 18:14:04 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I am at: http://p2pool.in/
1484 2014-06-16 18:14:19 <gwillen> gmaxwell: it wants me to manually install dependencies, and gives instructions for _Ubuntu only_ on how to install them
1485 2014-06-16 18:14:28 <sipa> hearn: it does not exist, afaik
1486 2014-06-16 18:14:32 <gmaxwell> hearn: it's protocol possible, not implemented at all now.
1487 2014-06-16 18:14:38 <hearn> that would explain it
1488 2014-06-16 18:14:39 <hearn> :)
1489 2014-06-16 18:14:47 altgribble has joined
1490 2014-06-16 18:14:58 spinza has joined
1491 2014-06-16 18:14:59 <hearn> there's clearly lots of lowish hanging fruit to help decentralise mining, at least.
1492 2014-06-16 18:15:01 <dabura667> Good night everybody from Japan. - not Satoshi
1493 2014-06-16 18:15:06 <hearn> good night
1494 2014-06-16 18:15:09 <gwillen> (also it calls the source section 'linux', though perhaps it works fine on OS X too)
1495 2014-06-16 18:15:12 <maaku> gwillen: did you try just typing 'make'?
1496 2014-06-16 18:15:17 <skinnkavaj> gavinandresen: If it's true that you will earn more in the long term mining on p2pool rather than Ghash, then that really needs to be clarified in a blog post. I don't think anyone of the miners know it.
1497 2014-06-16 18:15:18 AnoAnon has joined
1498 2014-06-16 18:15:19 <gmaxwell> gwillen: yea, looks like there is no OSX instructions.
1499 2014-06-16 18:15:32 dabura667 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1500 2014-06-16 18:15:36 <Emcy> skinnkavaj ghash is 0 fee
1501 2014-06-16 18:15:37 <gwillen> maaku: it does nobody any good for it to work under OS X if the instructions don't include OS X. Zero people will run it.
1502 2014-06-16 18:15:42 <gwillen> maaku: I'll try for science
1503 2014-06-16 18:15:42 <Emcy> so its not true
1504 2014-06-16 18:15:43 AnoAnon has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1505 2014-06-16 18:15:47 <gwillen> but I'm pretty sure I don't have Twisted on here
1506 2014-06-16 18:15:54 <Emcy> well unless p2pool had significant donations
1507 2014-06-16 18:16:12 <maaku> gwillen: 'make' downloads and installs all the required deps, including twisted
1508 2014-06-16 18:16:13 <skinnkavaj> Emcy: On p2pool.in it says fee is optional, but turned on by default 1%.
1509 2014-06-16 18:16:13 <hearn> other complaints i heard is that Core's bandwidth usage is still too painful
1510 2014-06-16 18:16:24 <skinnkavaj> (So its actualyl free if you want)
1511 2014-06-16 18:16:29 <maaku> (I wrote the makefile, and at least at the time I contributed it worked under OS X)
1512 2014-06-16 18:17:08 <hearn> ugh
1513 2014-06-16 18:17:19 <hearn> CEX/GHash tells the community to go screw itself, effectively: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/28aldt/ghashio_is_open_for_discussion/
1514 2014-06-16 18:17:24 <michagogo> gavinandresen: re: fees, do the graphs you linked (~4 hours ago) count by byte, or do they round to the nearest kB?
1515 2014-06-16 18:17:25 <hearn> and quotes the Foundation blog post as justification
1516 2014-06-16 18:17:29 <hearn> wonderful
1517 2014-06-16 18:17:50 <gwillen> maaku: two problems: (1) the instructions don't even mention the makefile, they instruct to manually download dependencies and they don't mention OS X at all
1518 2014-06-16 18:18:04 <gwillen> maaku: (2) the Makefile seems to be broken on OS X although I'm debugging that now
1519 2014-06-16 18:18:16 <skinnkavaj> hearn: Wow, we really need to fight these guys.
1520 2014-06-16 18:18:19 <gavinandresen> michagogo: they count by byte. But theyâre measuring wallets that round up to nearest 1,000 bytes.
1521 2014-06-16 18:18:26 <gwillen> maaku: and sorry, by 'instructions' I mean the text at p2pool.in, I don't know who maintains that
1522 2014-06-16 18:18:29 <michagogo> Right, that's what I was getting at
1523 2014-06-16 18:18:34 <gwillen> maaku: but that's what people seem to point everyone to
1524 2014-06-16 18:18:35 <gmaxwell> historically p2pool's orphan rate has been much lower than ghash.io, owing to better block announcement most likely.
1525 2014-06-16 18:18:58 <michagogo> So fees right now may well be higher than they actually need to be, because wallets are rounding
1526 2014-06-16 18:19:08 <dsnrk> anybody want to bet that p2pools recent drop in luck is the block withholding miner that hit eligius and btcguild?
1527 2014-06-16 18:19:11 <sipa> i don't think we know
1528 2014-06-16 18:19:19 <gmaxwell> dsnrk: don
1529 2014-06-16 18:19:22 <sipa> wallets use fixed strategies, and there is effectively no market
1530 2014-06-16 18:19:22 <gmaxwell> 't think soâ¦
1531 2014-06-16 18:19:22 <hearn> ok, i'm going to try and write up a draft blog post we can post to $BLOG summing up some of this discussion
1532 2014-06-16 18:19:30 <gwillen> hearn: I vaguely wonder if they're doing this on purpose to try to force the issue
1533 2014-06-16 18:19:41 <michagogo> With some transactions hovering around the... 200?... byte range, you can divide the fees you see by almost 5 to get a better picture
1534 2014-06-16 18:19:45 <sipa> we need transition period to get to a market
1535 2014-06-16 18:19:54 <hearn> gwillen: no, i don't think so. i think they like money.
1536 2014-06-16 18:19:58 <gwillen> heh, *nods*.
1537 2014-06-16 18:20:11 <gavinandresen> michagogo: my rule of thumb is average transaction size is 250 bytes, so I divide by 4.
1538 2014-06-16 18:21:03 <skinnkavaj> gavinandresen: Can you post hearns blog post to your personal blog as well and not only TBF? We really need to put up a fight and armed with two posts or even more would give us some ammo
1539 2014-06-16 18:21:25 <gavinandresen> michagogo: if you want a little project, Iâd be happy to give you the graphing code, you could lookup exchange rate and graph fees paid for average-sized transactions in cents....
1540 2014-06-16 18:21:37 <hearn> hold your horses. i haven't written it yet.
1541 2014-06-16 18:22:25 <gwillen> maaku: the makefile in the latest release is broken because when you 'curl' from pypi.python.org, you need to use either https or -L (follow redirects)
1542 2014-06-16 18:22:25 postpre has joined
1543 2014-06-16 18:22:36 <gwillen> maaku: (this is not an OS X specific issue as far as I can tell)
1544 2014-06-16 18:22:45 <gwillen> (presumably this is something they changed recently)
1545 2014-06-16 18:22:50 lolstate has quit (Quit: lolstate)
1546 2014-06-16 18:25:36 <michagogo> 21:02:39 <hearn> gmaxwell: oh, gbt can do that? i thought it provided the block to build on and you had to do that <-- Well, there's a difference between what the protocol is, what can be done with the protocol, and what's actually implemented in software
1547 2014-06-16 18:25:59 ThomasV has joined
1548 2014-06-16 18:26:01 <gwillen> maaku: yeah, that fixes it, otherwise it downloads and installs all the dependencies successfully
1549 2014-06-16 18:26:09 <michagogo> The protocol, as the name suggests, is a way to get a block template. That template can be as dense/specific or as sparse/loose as you want.
1550 2014-06-16 18:26:24 <gwillen> then it dies because of the thing where my python is from homebrew and it probably installed the dependencies with system python or something, but that's not really your fault
1551 2014-06-16 18:26:43 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
1552 2014-06-16 18:26:49 <michagogo> The block template is essentially, "Hey, I'm going to make a block. What do you want from a block that I make?"
1553 2014-06-16 18:27:22 <sipa> yup
1554 2014-06-16 18:27:35 <michagogo> And the template even specifies what parts of it are demands/requirements and what parts are just suggestions
1555 2014-06-16 18:27:41 <dsnrk> gwillen: the python/homebrew thing is a mess.
1556 2014-06-16 18:28:08 <michagogo> As implemented in currently available software, it's just the recipe for a full block, transactions and all, but other systems can be made with gbt
1557 2014-06-16 18:28:26 <gwillen> dsnrk: sure does.
1558 2014-06-16 18:28:37 <dsnrk> yes, you can use BFGminer as a local proxy from GBT><stratum if you want.
1559 2014-06-16 18:28:49 spinza has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1560 2014-06-16 18:28:52 <gwillen> dsnrk: I have not yet had an OS X system where python _wasn't_ somehow fucked. Which is clearly my fault somehow, but fuck if I know.
1561 2014-06-16 18:28:59 sahlhoff has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1562 2014-06-16 18:29:31 <gmaxwell> unfortunately the tool that turns bags of python into a single executable are windows only.
1563 2014-06-16 18:29:40 <dsnrk> gwillen: it's not just you. the times I've tried to use homebrew on OSX with python have been a disaster. virtualenv helps, and pypy where you can use it.
1564 2014-06-16 18:29:45 <michagogo> gmaxwell: py2exe, right?
1565 2014-06-16 18:29:49 sahlhoff has joined
1566 2014-06-16 18:30:34 <gwillen> gmaxwell: :-(
1567 2014-06-16 18:31:03 <dsnrk> virtualenv is your friend here, or anywhere really.
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1569 2014-06-16 18:32:19 coingenuity has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1570 2014-06-16 18:32:32 * gwillen nods
1571 2014-06-16 18:33:15 <mr_burdell> there's py2app for OS X
1572 2014-06-16 18:33:20 <dsnrk> openssl on OSX is nasty too
1573 2014-06-16 18:33:38 <mr_burdell> same as py2exe, but creates a .app directory
1574 2014-06-16 18:33:39 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_ was working on block template merging support for libblkmaker, but he's been tied up with his new job recently
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1583 2014-06-16 18:38:23 <gwillen> mr_burdell: that sounds promising
1584 2014-06-16 18:38:53 <btcNeverSleeps> How does the "nLockTime" transaction of greenaddress.it / Lawrence Nahum work? Is this done using Rivest's time-lock crypto capsule?
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1589 2014-06-16 18:44:52 <mr_burdell> btcNeverSleeps: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/NLockTime
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1595 2014-06-16 18:46:34 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1596 2014-06-16 18:47:50 <btcNeverSleeps> so if I understand correctly the "timelock" is assured by a server you have to trust, not by math / crypto like Rivest's time-lock crypto capsule?
1597 2014-06-16 18:48:01 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1598 2014-06-16 18:48:24 <mr_burdell> the miners can't include it before the time lock block number
1599 2014-06-16 18:48:42 <mr_burdell> so no trust in a server... it's part of the protocol
1600 2014-06-16 18:48:51 weilu has joined
1601 2014-06-16 18:50:02 <btcNeverSleeps> mr_burdell: it was in the bitcoin protocol from the start?
1602 2014-06-16 18:50:47 <mr_burdell> I believe so, however I'm not 100% sure
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1604 2014-06-16 18:51:09 <btcNeverSleeps> mr_burdell: cool, thanks a lot for the explanation / link!
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1608 2014-06-16 18:52:14 <mr_burdell> probably have to look it up elsewhere too... that link is kind of short
1609 2014-06-16 18:52:28 <michagogo> btcNeverSleeps: a transaction cannot be mined before its nLockTime arrives
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1612 2014-06-16 18:52:53 <michagogo> That can either be a low number, in which case it's treated as a block number -- for example, I can make a transaction that cannot be mined until block 310000
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1616 2014-06-16 18:53:19 <michagogo> Or it can be a high number, in which case it's treated as a UNIX timestamp, and it can only be mined by a block with that timestamp or higher
1617 2014-06-16 18:53:36 <michagogo> (or maybe by a block with a higher timestamp? *shrug*)
1618 2014-06-16 18:53:46 <michagogo> Oh, and by "by a block" I mean "in a block"
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1620 2014-06-16 18:55:54 <jgarzik> IsFinalTx: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L566
1621 2014-06-16 18:56:01 <jgarzik> CTxIn::IsFinal: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/core.h#L92
1622 2014-06-16 18:56:15 <jgarzik> If it's final, it is allowed in a block.
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1626 2014-06-16 18:57:30 <mr_burdell> and I think the isstandard checks if it would be valid for the next block... allowing it in the mempool before the next block that could mine it
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1633 2014-06-16 18:59:00 <chichov> any way to create a raw multisig transaction with bitcoind?
1634 2014-06-16 18:59:49 <mr_burdell> createrawtransaction should do it
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1637 2014-06-16 19:00:53 christophe has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1638 2014-06-16 19:00:54 <mr_burdell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=468334.msg5178588#msg5178588
1639 2014-06-16 19:00:58 <chichov> and just pass pubkeys instead of addresses I suppose?
1640 2014-06-16 19:01:28 <chichov> this is a P2SH with multisig, I need raw multisig
1641 2014-06-16 19:01:31 WKNiGHT- is now known as WKNiGHT
1642 2014-06-16 19:02:27 <mr_burdell> oh... not sure about that
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1645 2014-06-16 19:03:03 <maaku> gwillen: 'make run'
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1652 2014-06-16 19:04:23 <gwillen> maaku: oh, nice
1653 2014-06-16 19:04:37 <gwillen> maaku: incidentally, I'm sure you already know this but my issue with https is fixed at HEAD, just not in latest release
1654 2014-06-16 19:04:37 AnoAnon has joined
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1659 2014-06-16 19:07:16 <gwillen> maaku: error reporting could be improved slightly -- the 'you need a bitcoin.conf' error is obscure a bit by spammy output, and the 'your bitcoin is still downloading blocks' error is very obscured by huge stack dumps
1660 2014-06-16 19:07:17 brson has joined
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1662 2014-06-16 19:08:06 <maaku> highlighting forrestv (he maintains p2pool)
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1667 2014-06-16 19:08:42 <maaku> you can look at the 'run' target of the makefile to see what it is doing, in case you want to change anything
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1677 2014-06-16 19:11:25 <hearn> Luke-Jr: are you around?
1678 2014-06-16 19:11:25 coingenuity has joined
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1683 2014-06-16 19:16:04 <chichov> any built-in method to reverse HexStr()? i.e. transform a hex string into binary?
1684 2014-06-16 19:16:07 <Luke-Jr> hearn: somewhat
1685 2014-06-16 19:16:16 mappum has joined
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1687 2014-06-16 19:16:27 <mr_burdell> chichov: which language?
1688 2014-06-16 19:16:32 coingenuity has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1689 2014-06-16 19:16:35 <chichov> c++, in the bitcoin code
1690 2014-06-16 19:16:41 <mr_burdell> oh
1691 2014-06-16 19:16:45 <mr_burdell> right
1692 2014-06-16 19:16:55 <chichov> must be somewhere
1693 2014-06-16 19:17:23 <hearn> Luke-Jr: if I sent volunteers who want to improve getblocktemplate implementations your way, would you be OK with that? i mean would you have time to help them get started
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1703 2014-06-16 19:19:14 <Luke-Jr> hearn: certainly
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1710 2014-06-16 19:20:48 <hearn> thanks
1711 2014-06-16 19:20:53 AndrewJackson has joined
1712 2014-06-16 19:21:08 coingenuity has joined
1713 2014-06-16 19:21:08 <hearn> i've written a draft blog post that i'm going to shop around, perhaps with the foundation blog in mind. it's here.
1714 2014-06-16 19:21:08 <hearn> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CwG5h2MggAYvlAzxx4JSB5j93LFRzz4F8Ukno4z2jLU/edit?usp=sharing
1715 2014-06-16 19:21:10 <hearn> feedback welcome
1716 2014-06-16 19:21:21 coingenuity has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1717 2014-06-16 19:21:24 <hearn> seems like gavin has left already
1718 2014-06-16 19:21:37 <hearn> skinnkavaj: poke
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1726 2014-06-16 19:26:24 <maaku> chichov: ParseHex or something like that
1727 2014-06-16 19:26:25 <mr_burdell> is there a reason why p2pool doesn't allow variable share difficulties?
1728 2014-06-16 19:26:28 <maaku> it's in util.cpp
1729 2014-06-16 19:26:34 <maaku> mr_burdell: how would that work?
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1732 2014-06-16 19:26:45 <chichov> maaku: sounds familiar, I'll look it up
1733 2014-06-16 19:26:50 <mr_burdell> if you submit a lower share, you get less payout
1734 2014-06-16 19:26:58 <mr_burdell> higher shares are worth higher payout
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1736 2014-06-16 19:27:04 <mr_burdell> isn't that how a lot of mining works?
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1739 2014-06-16 19:27:25 <mr_burdell> you adjust the share difficulties so that bandwidth usage decreases?
1740 2014-06-16 19:27:27 dkog has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1741 2014-06-16 19:27:30 <mr_burdell> that's how I thought it worked anyway
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1748 2014-06-16 19:28:21 <chichov> maaku: work's like a charm, thanks
1749 2014-06-16 19:28:28 <mr_burdell> I guess the issue with too low of shares could potentially create a coinbase transaction that's too large
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1754 2014-06-16 19:29:57 <maaku> mr_burdell: ^^^
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1761 2014-06-16 19:30:36 <maaku> also more importantly you can't lower the inter-share interval too low, or you get centralization effects from network latency
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1763 2014-06-16 19:30:49 <Krellan_> mr_burdell: It took me a while to prove it to myself as well,
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1767 2014-06-16 19:31:08 <Krellan_> but submitting many lower shares is same PoW as submitting just a few higher shares.
1768 2014-06-16 19:31:17 <Krellan_> 1 share at difficulty 100 = 100 shares at difficulty 1
1769 2014-06-16 19:31:29 <mr_burdell> Krellan_: but the variance is higher
1770 2014-06-16 19:31:36 <mr_burdell> which is what ppl don't like about p2pool
1771 2014-06-16 19:31:40 <Krellan_> I too thought P2Pool should reward higher shares
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1773 2014-06-16 19:32:14 <Krellan_> but then people would have no incentive to select a higher share difficulty for starting with.
1774 2014-06-16 19:32:47 <Krellan_> Instead, p2pool rewards the difficulty that you selected when you started mining. So if you get lucky and find a hugely high share, you only get paid what you originally agreed upon as the difficulty, even if much less.
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1776 2014-06-16 19:33:04 <Krellan_> Except if your share is so high it's also a block :) then you get the finder's fee as well.
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1782 2014-06-16 19:34:22 <maaku> Krellan_: no, p2pool does not reward 'the difficulty that you selected when you started mining'
1783 2014-06-16 19:34:31 <maaku> the p2pool share chain selects the difficulty for you
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1786 2014-06-16 19:34:52 <maaku> based on network hash rate, because of the target share interval (30s)
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1789 2014-06-16 19:36:41 <Krellan_> Yes, it computes the base difficulty, that's from the sharechain, however, you can choose voluntarily to attempt a higher difficulty.
1790 2014-06-16 19:36:48 <warren> yes
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1792 2014-06-16 19:37:06 <Krellan_> For a correspondingly higher payout. If you're a fast miner, you apprecate this, becasuse then you mine less dust TX, that will be cheaper for you to spend in the future.
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1796 2014-06-16 19:38:27 <gmaxwell> maaku: the chain selects the minimum difficulty, but the software automatically increases your difficulty above that to try to not get more than 1000 shares in the window.
1797 2014-06-16 19:38:33 <Krellan_> There's been talk of increasing the p2pool sharechain length, having multiple chains in parallel, etc. however it's already very low payout (0.002 BTC now, I think) for 1 share, and dividing it finer would be dangerously close to the dust threshold.
1798 2014-06-16 19:38:45 <gwillen> maaku: okay, with blockchain synced, all is now working, awesome; but how do I teach it where my mining software is?
1799 2014-06-16 19:39:02 <gmaxwell> Once you've got 1k shares in the window further shares will hardly decrease your variance, better to leave room for other miners (allowing a higher minimum share diff)
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1801 2014-06-16 19:39:32 <maaku> gmaxwell: has this changed in the last year? because that's not how p2pool worked last time I hacked on it
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1805 2014-06-16 19:39:44 <maaku> the vardiff stuff was just for reporting & statistic reasons
1806 2014-06-16 19:39:49 <Krellan_> Wow, it would be great to have 1K shares in the window
1807 2014-06-16 19:39:50 <gmaxwell> Yes, it changed about a year ago.
1808 2014-06-16 19:39:57 <Krellan_> I'm lucky to limp in a single share
1809 2014-06-16 19:40:13 <Krellan_> 1K shares in the window = You should be running at a higher difficulty, you're hogging all the sharechain
1810 2014-06-16 19:40:24 <maaku> also that sounds like you'd be losing shares if reporting diff goes > share diff -- what Krellan_ said
1811 2014-06-16 19:40:26 <gmaxwell> Same time as the intershare interval changed from 10s to 30s.
1812 2014-06-16 19:40:43 <gmaxwell> maaku: it woun't allow the reporting diff to be higher than the share diff.
1813 2014-06-16 19:41:06 <maaku> gmaxwell: then it has no effect on payouts right?
1814 2014-06-16 19:41:12 <Krellan_> At 1K shares in the window, you're controlling about 1/9 of P2Pool
1815 2014-06-16 19:41:29 <gmaxwell> maaku: reporting there means the non-share reporting used for purely local stats.
1816 2014-06-16 19:42:01 <Krellan_> Reporting difficulty is very low, intentionally, just so you find "shares" every couple of seconds or so, to verify your local miners are still running
1817 2014-06-16 19:42:03 <gmaxwell> Krellan_: right, it only effects the top couple miners... they automatically increase their share diff, which has the effect of lowering the share diff for everyone else.
1818 2014-06-16 19:42:15 <gwillen> maaku: oh, I see, it's the opposite of that; I need to configure cgminer or whatever to talk to localhost as its pool?
1819 2014-06-16 19:42:22 <gmaxwell> gwillen: yes.
1820 2014-06-16 19:42:33 <maaku> gmaxwell: ok that makes sense
1821 2014-06-16 19:42:36 <maaku> thank you
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1823 2014-06-16 19:43:03 <Krellan_> There's only 8640 shares to fight over in P2Pool (30 seconds per share, over 3 days)
1824 2014-06-16 19:43:21 <Krellan_> At 25 BTC per block discovered by P2Pool, that's 0.00289 BTC per share
1825 2014-06-16 19:43:24 <gmaxwell> right, more shares in the window the smallest the dust payments.
1826 2014-06-16 19:43:34 <Krellan_> What is currently the dust threshold?
1827 2014-06-16 19:43:38 <gmaxwell> er smaller... 0.00289 seems like a pretty good amount.
1828 2014-06-16 19:43:43 <Krellan_> I'm sure there's room to add more shares.
1829 2014-06-16 19:43:53 <hearn> post 0.9 it's 564 satoshis
1830 2014-06-16 19:43:59 <Krellan_> Good to know
1831 2014-06-16 19:44:02 <hearn> however quite a few miners didn't follow that yet
1832 2014-06-16 19:44:18 <gmaxwell> thats more or less irrelevant to this discussion in any case.
1833 2014-06-16 19:44:24 <hearn> so in reality it may be more like 5640 if you want a regular, fast confirming tx. but can't p2pool process its own payouts? why would it care what the best limit is?
1834 2014-06-16 19:44:28 postpre has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1835 2014-06-16 19:44:30 <hearn> s/best/dust/
1836 2014-06-16 19:44:30 <gmaxwell> has nothing to do with inputs, and isn't imposed on coinbases. :)
1837 2014-06-16 19:44:40 <Krellan_> That 0.00289 BTC = 289351 satoshi
1838 2014-06-16 19:44:56 <Krellan_> Where'd the number 564 satoshi comes from? That seems rather arbitrary?
1839 2014-06-16 19:45:03 <gmaxwell> It doesn't care. But paying people with lots of dust eventually makes them unable to transact without doing some manual defragmenting of the wallet.
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1841 2014-06-16 19:45:22 <Krellan_> Yes, p2pool declares its own payout in the coinbase, however, when you go to spend them on anything, you've got a huge number of fragments to clean up.
1842 2014-06-16 19:45:29 <hearn> right, i know. some people pay directly to android wallets and then run out of ram :(
1843 2014-06-16 19:45:38 <gmaxwell> Krellan_: it's derrived from the "will not relay" threshold, basically its when an output no longer pays the marginal cost of spending it relative to that threshold.
1844 2014-06-16 19:45:40 <Krellan_> Wow yikes
1845 2014-06-16 19:45:41 <hearn> an auto-defragmenter would not be hard to write
1846 2014-06-16 19:45:46 <gmaxwell> hearn: well that has nothing to do with dust either.
1847 2014-06-16 19:45:52 <Krellan_> That's a cool idea, paying to an android wallet, then you are notified on your phone when you find a share
1848 2014-06-16 19:46:00 <gmaxwell> hearn: thats because you're loading the whole transactions into ram...
1849 2014-06-16 19:46:03 <hearn> yes, i know
1850 2014-06-16 19:46:16 <gmaxwell> (well okay, indirectly dust)
1851 2014-06-16 19:46:20 <hearn> sorry, the observation wasn't connected to the dust thing. i'm still trying to figure out why that's come up :)
1852 2014-06-16 19:46:29 <Krellan_> A transaction still isn't very big, however, all the database cross-referencing required could exhaust an android client
1853 2014-06-16 19:46:30 <gmaxwell> yea, I dunno why that came up.
1854 2014-06-16 19:46:49 <hearn> Krellan_: the problem is the transactions are big relative to the RAM a phone gives you, especially when you use java which is a memory piggy
1855 2014-06-16 19:46:55 <Krellan_> Yep
1856 2014-06-16 19:46:59 <hearn> we need to change the wallet so it only tracks relevant outputs, not the entire tx
1857 2014-06-16 19:47:13 <hearn> and longer term move to some fancier wallet format like a sqlite or custom log based format
1858 2014-06-16 19:47:15 <gmaxwell> in any case, 0.00289 is smaller than some centeralized pools will pay, and similar to others... Perhaps a factor of two reduction would be okay.
1859 2014-06-16 19:47:24 <jcorgan> +1 sqlite
1860 2014-06-16 19:47:34 <hearn> sqlite has some issues. no ALTER TABLE, for example.
1861 2014-06-16 19:47:42 <hearn> but then, holding wallets in ram also has issues :)
1862 2014-06-16 19:47:46 <jcorgan> ..because you can easily substitude sqlcipher
1863 2014-06-16 19:48:02 <poutine> http://www.sqlite.org/lang_altertable.html
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1865 2014-06-16 19:48:09 <poutine> sqlite most definitely has ALTER TABLE
1866 2014-06-16 19:48:26 <jcorgan> and get free on the fly AES encrypt/decrypt, where only ciphertext is in the storage
1867 2014-06-16 19:48:28 <poutine> might not have your particular favorite use case for it
1868 2014-06-16 19:48:31 <mr_burdell> wait... when did the dust change from 5k satoshi to 500 satoshi?
1869 2014-06-16 19:48:37 <mr_burdell> is that a 0.9 change?
1870 2014-06-16 19:49:08 <hearn> mr_burdell: yeah
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1872 2014-06-16 19:49:42 <hearn> poutine: oh, huh. i have been misled!
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1874 2014-06-16 19:50:11 <poutine> hearn, it is admittedly pretty limited
1875 2014-06-16 19:50:12 <hearn> i guess they meant it didn't support real sql alter table.
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1877 2014-06-16 19:50:17 <maaku> "SQLite supports a limited subset of ALTER TABLE" -- you can only rename tables or add new fields
1878 2014-06-16 19:50:26 <hearn> yes, well, adding columns is all that's needed really i think.
1879 2014-06-16 19:50:40 <Krellan_> As for p2pool suggestion ideas, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=329860.0 = I really like the idea of multiple sharechains, for high and low miners.
1880 2014-06-16 19:50:47 <hearn> anyway, bitcoinj wallet will not become db based anytime soon, given all the other higher priority tasks
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1885 2014-06-16 19:54:43 <phantomcircuit> hearn, you cant remove fields
1886 2014-06-16 19:55:21 <phantomcircuit> you end up doing weird stuff like update table set field=null;alter table table rename field DEPRECATED_1
1887 2014-06-16 19:55:28 <hearn> yeah
1888 2014-06-16 19:55:47 <phantomcircuit> there's a good amount of stuff they dont let you do because it would be horribly slow
1889 2014-06-16 19:55:58 <phantomcircuit> which is acceptable for trivial sized databases...
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1893 2014-06-16 19:57:01 <jcorgan> how often would a db schema need to change, and for what reasons, in a bitcoin wallet?
1894 2014-06-16 19:57:37 <phantomcircuit> jcorgan, if implemented correctly, probably never
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1896 2014-06-16 19:58:03 <jcorgan> kinda what i thought, so confused about the ALTER TABLE issue
1897 2014-06-16 19:58:50 <poutine> I'd say if you have a use-case for a lot of schema changes, sqlite, and maybe sql in general might not be the right tool for the job
1898 2014-06-16 19:59:35 <hearn> we add features all the time, actually
1899 2014-06-16 19:59:41 <hearn> e.g. the random to HD wallet upgrade is one
1900 2014-06-16 19:59:46 <hearn> we added key rotation, that's another
1901 2014-06-16 19:59:52 <hearn> in future we'll store payment protocol requests, that's another
1902 2014-06-16 19:59:58 <hearn> exchange rate fixes, that's another. etc etc.
1903 2014-06-16 20:00:05 <hearn> the wallet is a fairly dynamic data structure.
1904 2014-06-16 20:00:54 <phantomcircuit> hearn, all of those sound like additions
1905 2014-06-16 20:00:57 <phantomcircuit> which would be fine
1906 2014-06-16 20:00:59 <hearn> yeah
1907 2014-06-16 20:01:03 <hearn> that's what i said, i think :)
1908 2014-06-16 20:01:12 <hearn> i don't think we've removed stuff very often in the past
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1910 2014-06-16 20:01:28 <phantomcircuit> removing stuff from a wallet sounds like a bad idea anyways
1911 2014-06-16 20:01:29 <hearn> though once we switch to storing just relevant outputs, that's probably a big schema change. i'd want to get that over with before switching to a different backend
1912 2014-06-16 20:01:42 <phantomcircuit> the only reason i can see doing that is if you have a bug that bloats the wallet to crazy sizes
1913 2014-06-16 20:02:06 <Luke-Jr> hearn: done reviewing
1914 2014-06-16 20:02:49 <hearn> thanks for the review! very helpful
1915 2014-06-16 20:03:08 <Luke-Jr> hearn: and thank you for taking some time to help promote this stuff
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1930 2014-06-16 20:17:33 <gwillen> maaku: are you the maintainer of p2pool/p2pool.in, or a contributor? (If I send the maintainer a pull request to change the instructions on the website, do you expect it will be accepted? Can/should I run it by you first?)
1931 2014-06-16 20:17:34 <chichov> does signrawtransaction fail if one of the public keys is invalid?
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1933 2014-06-16 20:17:48 <gwillen> maaku: I just want to update the site to suggest 'make' and 'make run' instead of a bunch of manual steps that don't work right
1934 2014-06-16 20:17:58 <gwillen> maaku: and to include the fact that this works on OS X
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1936 2014-06-16 20:18:41 <maaku> gwillen: neither, i merely contributed the makefile once, many moons ago
1937 2014-06-16 20:18:48 <gwillen> ahhh, okay, thanks
1938 2014-06-16 20:18:49 <maaku> forrestv: ^^
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1940 2014-06-16 20:19:34 <gwillen> forrestv: can I send you a pullrequest for the p2pool.in site, adding OS X and suggesting that people use 'make' and 'make run' instead of manually installing dependencies and running the python script
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1942 2014-06-16 20:20:09 <gwillen> forrestv: (and if the linux and windows icons come from a set, where do I get / can you supply the OS X icon?)
1943 2014-06-16 20:22:44 <michagogo> 22:35:02 <gwillen> maaku: okay, with blockchain synced, all is now working, awesome; but how do I teach it where my mining software is? <-- Huh?
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1945 2014-06-16 20:22:58 <michagogo> It's the other way around, you point your mining software at p2pool
1946 2014-06-16 20:23:04 <gwillen> michagogo: yes, I figured that out subsequently, see later sb
1947 2014-06-16 20:23:34 <michagogo> Ah, missed that
1948 2014-06-16 20:23:45 <michagogo> (except that bfgminer > cgminer)
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1955 2014-06-16 20:34:34 <kjj> we should start a mailing list where we can talk about bitcoin development
1956 2014-06-16 20:34:36 <skinnkavaj> Seems like getblocktemplate is not a good solution at all when the pool owner can you just turn it off whenever he wants
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1962 2014-06-16 20:38:11 <michagogo> kjj: there already is one
1963 2014-06-16 20:38:21 <michagogo> skinnkavaj: Well, you use a pool that provides it
1964 2014-06-16 20:38:27 <michagogo> Hm, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-unix.md#dependencies is incomplete
1965 2014-06-16 20:38:55 <michagogo> libssl is used for a lot more than "SSL Support" and "Secure communications"
1966 2014-06-16 20:38:57 <kjj> no, I promise you that there is not. go read today's stream of crap if you are under some illusions about that
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1973 2014-06-16 20:43:59 <hearn> kjj: not a fan of discussion about BIPs and incentivised nodes?
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1975 2014-06-16 20:44:44 <kjj> BIPs, I have no problem with, but I declined to subscribe to the bitcoin-navel-gazing list for a reason
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1981 2014-06-16 20:48:36 <hearn> what topics do you want to talk about?
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1986 2014-06-16 20:52:15 <gwillen> forrestv: I sent you a pull request
1987 2014-06-16 20:52:43 <gwillen> anybody who wants to see my updates to the p2pool.in site or make suggestions, view it here: https://github.com/forrestv/p2pool.in/pull/1
1988 2014-06-16 20:52:48 <gwillen> maaku: ^
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2003 2014-06-16 20:58:59 <kjj> hearn: non sequitur. we are allowed gaps in the discussion of the protocol and software without needing to fill it with prattle about devices promising on their honour not to double spend
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2009 2014-06-16 21:00:07 <hearn> i.e. you don't have any specific topic you'd rather discuss, and it's not like mailing lists get full anyway. what do you expect people to discuss on a bitcoin development list anyway, except bitcoin improvement proposals? discussion of specific patches is done on github
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2013 2014-06-16 21:00:56 <lechuga_> i'm honestly intrigued by the concept of honorable devices
2014 2014-06-16 21:01:42 <hearn> they're an old technique. the entire card infrastructure outside the USA uses them, and all pay TV also uses them
2015 2014-06-16 21:01:45 <hearn> their track record is excellent
2016 2014-06-16 21:01:50 <hearn> (as of the last ten years or so)
2017 2014-06-16 21:02:05 <kjj> isn't there a list for other crap that we build on and around bitcoin? how about we assign a protobuff key in our one true central repository of PB keys so that gaming sites can sign their payout percentages?
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2032 2014-06-16 21:13:53 <belcher> could the bitcoin node protocol support a client connecting, pushing a tx then disconnecting
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2034 2014-06-16 21:13:59 <belcher> im wondering about privacy concerns with electrum
2035 2014-06-16 21:14:32 <hearn> it already does support that
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2043 2014-06-16 21:15:46 <belcher> ok great, so all it takes is coding
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2045 2014-06-16 21:15:55 <skinnkavaj> Reading through hearns pull request https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4351
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2049 2014-06-16 21:16:25 <belcher> hearn and just to check, the client wouldnt need to download the blockchain or anything like that?
2050 2014-06-16 21:16:29 <hearn> no
2051 2014-06-16 21:16:33 <belcher> : )
2052 2014-06-16 21:17:13 <hearn> there's no point in uploading txns via the p2p network if you use electrum though. it'd hear about the tx a moment later and see that it's involving your keys
2053 2014-06-16 21:17:56 <belcher> it could be combined with adding other addresses that arnt yours to the watch-only list
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2057 2014-06-16 21:18:45 <belcher> randomly generated addresses, or addresses belonging to others that have money inside
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2059 2014-06-16 21:18:57 <belcher> (i know addresses dont contain money, that slipped out)
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2145 2014-06-16 21:59:26 <hearn> belcher: generating random addresses means you won't have any hits, obviously, otherwise you could steal other people's money. to find addresses belonging to other users you have to ask for them, which means the server knows what answer you got. the solution for this is noisy filters, implemented by bitcoinj/SPV clients for a year+ already now
2146 2014-06-16 22:00:10 <hearn> belcher: except we don't really use them for privacy because there's lots of tricky details, like you need to allow bandwidth usage to explode when you hit FP's, but not too much, and in general it's rather complex to ensure you give the remote node a consistently garbled view within your own resources and without latency hurting things too badly
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2150 2014-06-16 22:01:42 <belcher> ok, and i see there are already plans to put bloom filters into electrum
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2204 2014-06-16 22:58:02 <john1234> hi
2205 2014-06-16 22:58:34 <john1234> anyone here?
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2252 2014-06-16 23:26:57 Vitalik__ is now known as Vitalik_
2253 2014-06-16 23:27:20 Vitalik_ is now known as Vitalik
2254 2014-06-16 23:27:46 Vitalik is now known as Vitalik__
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2260 2014-06-16 23:36:36 <gmaxwell> Hm. has anyone been adding up the amount of p2pool donations lately? should probably get mentioned in mike's article.
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2268 2014-06-16 23:42:02 <gmaxwell> Since the latest bit of donations started, about 1300 blocks ago, I've recieved an additional 1.2% donation income mining on p2pool, over the regular mining income.
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