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11 2014-06-19 00:09:08 <andytoshi> xabbix: i ./configure with « CRYPTO_CFLAGS=-I/usr/local/ssl/include CRYPTO_LIBS="-L/usr/local/ssl/lib -ldl -lcrypto" SSL_CFLAGS=-I/usr/local/ssl/include SSL_LIBS="-L/usr/local/ssl/lib -lssl" ./configure »
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23 2014-06-19 00:31:23 <xabbix> andytoshi, thanks, trying that now
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27 2014-06-19 00:41:31 <xabbix> Still getting this message "OpenSSL appears to lack support for elliptic curve cryptography", I've compiled openssl with "./config shared --openssldir=/usr/local/ssl"
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29 2014-06-19 00:47:24 <xabbix> any ideas? andytoshi, kazcw, gmaxwell?
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39 2014-06-19 00:50:41 <andytoshi> xabbix: can you confirm that the .so's are in /usr/local/ssl/lib and that the wrong .so is referenced when you do « ldd ./src/bitcoind » ?
40 2014-06-19 00:51:26 <andytoshi> also you might try doing a « make clean all » on bitcoind after having compiled openssl if you did those things in the wrong order
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43 2014-06-19 00:53:10 <xabbix> andytoshi, cool didn't know about the ldd command. yes I can see that ldd bitcoind shows the wrong libssl: libssl.so.10 => /usr/lib64/libssl.so.10 (0x00007f3401129000)
44 2014-06-19 00:53:23 <xabbix> and /usr/local/ssl/lib has the correct ones.
45 2014-06-19 00:53:44 <xabbix> How can I fix this?
46 2014-06-19 00:56:10 <andytoshi> hmm, now that i look i'm using the system ssl libs on my laptop, so i guess i replaced them at some point
47 2014-06-19 00:56:15 <andytoshi> (and my ./configure line was a placebo)
48 2014-06-19 00:56:26 <andytoshi> i'll look into it
49 2014-06-19 00:57:40 <xabbix> thanks
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53 2014-06-19 01:05:11 <xabbix> andytoshi, is there any 'hack' i can apply for now just to make it compile a working version? i.e. copying the files from /usr/local/ssl/lib over to /usr/lib64 maybe?
54 2014-06-19 01:07:03 <andytoshi> xabbix: yeah, that'll definitely work and i did that actually on my server because of heartbleed
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56 2014-06-19 01:07:37 <andytoshi> and it's probably what i did on my laptop that the ./configure is working..it's nbd if i break my laptop so i'd have done the first hack that occured to me ;)
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58 2014-06-19 01:07:50 <xabbix> andytoshi, cool i'll give it a try now
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60 2014-06-19 01:08:20 <crunk-juice> anyone here use a multi-tier cold storage solution?
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63 2014-06-19 01:09:45 <andytoshi> lol xabbix my build is completely broken and apparently has not worked in a long time
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65 2014-06-19 01:10:04 <andytoshi> that's what i get for doing all my dev on the remote server..
66 2014-06-19 01:10:13 <andytoshi> what is CAutoBN_CTX and where should it be defined?
67 2014-06-19 01:10:41 <xabbix> lol
68 2014-06-19 01:10:42 <xabbix> ;)
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71 2014-06-19 01:12:15 <xabbix> It's 4am here, I've recompiled the Bitcoin source about 15 times now :-\
72 2014-06-19 01:13:40 <andytoshi> xabbix: if it's any consolation, i remember doing that and it's long in the past now..
73 2014-06-19 01:13:46 <andytoshi> once you get it setup it works forever
74 2014-06-19 01:14:09 <andytoshi> (except apparently on my laptop today)
75 2014-06-19 01:14:13 <xabbix> That's what I keep telling myself - just get the bin working and you can keep it forever :)
76 2014-06-19 01:15:30 <andytoshi> oh, i found the bug, it's in a commit i made "to make switching from base58 to base64" earlier which obviously rebased badly on some recent commits. i backed out my local stuff and it works now
77 2014-06-19 01:15:40 <andytoshi> make switching easier*
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82 2014-06-19 01:21:27 <xabbix> andytoshi, looks like it's working now, got some warnings ./bitcoind: /usr/lib64/libssl.so.10: no version information available (required by ./bitcoind)
83 2014-06-19 01:21:31 <xabbix> but it's running
84 2014-06-19 01:21:47 <andytoshi> xabbix: awesome, i get those too, it's nbd
85 2014-06-19 01:21:58 <xabbix> great, thanks for the help! :)
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189 2014-06-19 03:41:53 <venzen> Core 0.9.2 release notes at https://bitcoin.org/en/release/v0.9.2 says this release has updated OpenSSL to deal with the Heartbleed bug. Is there a difference in OpenSSL lib between 0.9.1 and 0.9.2 ?
190 2014-06-19 03:44:23 Khayman has joined
191 2014-06-19 03:44:46 <venzen> reading further into the release notes it seems the upgrade (to 1.0.1h) being referred to is for gitian builds only... can someone please confirm
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209 2014-06-19 04:03:31 <CodeShark> what's with this crap? http://pastebin.com/BEMJiJ7n
210 2014-06-19 04:03:42 <CodeShark> shouldn't the client get blacklisted?
211 2014-06-19 04:04:37 <CodeShark> or the peer, rather
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266 2014-06-19 05:39:31 <warren> Running into a strange issue with regtest. Two nodes with an identical blockchain are stopped, restarted and connected only to each other. One node creates a 0 conf transaction. The other node doesn't see that transaction at all until it becomes confirmed.
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268 2014-06-19 05:41:33 <warren> Here's the precise sequence. 1) Four regtest nodes started fresh and connected to each other. 2) Node A generates 107 blocks. Nodes B, C and D quickly see all those blocks. 3) Node C and D are stopped and restarted, then connected only to each other. This leaves two partitions A-B and C-D. 4) Node B sends a transaction, Node A sees it immediately. 5) Node C sends a transaction. Node D does not see it.
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270 2014-06-19 05:42:56 <warren> I'm not sure why there is a difference of transaction relay between the A-B and C-D partitions.
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272 2014-06-19 05:44:02 <gmaxwell> yea, in what way are they _at all_ distinguishable. Also, if A did all the mining how do C and D have coins to spend?
273 2014-06-19 05:45:13 <warren> oh, forgot to mention I copied the wallet.dat from A to C.
274 2014-06-19 05:45:51 <gmaxwell> and B too, I assume? does A still have it and D does not?
275 2014-06-19 05:46:17 <warren> oops, node A sends the transaction
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278 2014-06-19 05:47:45 <gmaxwell> okay so the only obvivous difference here is that a,b have not been restarted?
279 2014-06-19 05:47:50 <warren> yes
280 2014-06-19 05:48:06 <warren> C,D are not supposed to behave differently, but they are .
281 2014-06-19 05:48:12 <gmaxwell> can you try to reproduce but then restart A ... then try again and restart B?
282 2014-06-19 05:48:21 <gmaxwell> e.g. to make sure the restart is the only real difference?
283 2014-06-19 05:48:26 <warren> I'll have both sides of the partition restart
284 2014-06-19 05:48:54 <warren> oh
285 2014-06-19 05:48:59 <gmaxwell> the notion of trying one at a time there was basically to see if it was the sender or the reciever that mattered.
286 2014-06-19 05:49:08 <gmaxwell> (but it may just be the link bouncing that matters)
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296 2014-06-19 06:02:48 <warren> Frustratingly, restarting A,B doesn't change its behavior.
297 2014-06-19 06:04:12 <gmaxwell> is it possible that you send the transaction too fast after the restart such that the other node wasn't really up yet?
298 2014-06-19 06:05:28 <warren> Adding a 5 second sleep between doesn't change it
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300 2014-06-19 06:14:10 <warren> gmaxwell: I'm an idiot. I was testing for relay of the transaction with gettransaction. without txindex=1
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310 2014-06-19 06:23:28 <warren> gmaxwell: while that was a problem, it actually isn't getting into the mempool of the C,D peer
311 2014-06-19 06:23:35 <warren> if I don't restart C,D it works
312 2014-06-19 06:23:41 <warren> ..
313 2014-06-19 06:24:27 <gmaxwell> can you watch the log on the reciever when you send the txn?
314 2014-06-19 06:25:10 <warren> yes, nothing
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321 2014-06-19 06:36:37 <warren> gmaxwell: well.... this makes no apparent sense. txindex=1 didn't change the behavior of C,D. What fixed it was copying the wallet of A,B into C,D
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323 2014-06-19 06:36:57 <warren> The peer otherwise didn't see it in the mempool at all.
324 2014-06-19 06:37:15 <gmaxwell> how do you know it didn't see it in the mempool?
325 2014-06-19 06:37:24 <warren> doesn't appear in the debug.log
326 2014-06-19 06:37:51 <gmaxwell> well if you're spending an unconfirmed coin, for example, then you wouldn't know the inputs.. but if the unconfirmed coin is in your own wallet, you will.
327 2014-06-19 06:37:56 sabbie is now known as Sabbie
328 2014-06-19 06:38:07 <warren> they're confirmed
329 2014-06-19 06:38:14 <gmaxwell> I suggest using the getrawmempool rpc.
330 2014-06-19 06:38:21 <warren> ah
331 2014-06-19 06:38:30 <gmaxwell> and see if you can spot differences in 'initial' state.
332 2014-06-19 06:38:40 <warren> thanks
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338 2014-06-19 06:45:30 <warren> Confirmed, it isn't reaching the other mempool unless the wallets are identical, this makes no sense. For now I'm "fixing" it this way, I'll look into wtf happened later.
339 2014-06-19 06:45:59 lclc has joined
340 2014-06-19 06:46:06 <gmaxwell> is the initial mempool state (before the txn) different in the working/non-working cases?
341 2014-06-19 06:46:26 <warren> oh, I didn't look at A,B
342 2014-06-19 06:46:31 <warren> I'll look later.
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419 2014-06-19 07:44:49 <michagogo> 02:36:44 <gmaxwell> If there are no objections I'm going to set this channel to quiet anyone who is currently banned in #bitcoin or in #bitcoin-global-bans (a new freenode feature makes this possible). I intend to use global bans for crapflooding and such. <-- Does that work? I think someone was doign a bunch of testing in #freenode earlier and it seemed
420 2014-06-19 07:44:49 <michagogo> that setting +q $j: didn't behave as expected
421 2014-06-19 07:45:15 <michagogo> Quieting everyone, or noone, or something -- I don't remember the exact details
422 2014-06-19 07:45:32 drazisil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
423 2014-06-19 07:45:38 <gmaxwell> doesn't seem to have done anything bad.
424 2014-06-19 07:46:12 <michagogo> Wait, did you set it?
425 2014-06-19 07:46:17 Grouver has quit (Client Quit)
426 2014-06-19 07:46:19 <michagogo> I wonder why it's not in my backlog o_O
427 2014-06-19 07:46:29 Grouver has joined
428 2014-06-19 07:47:21 <michagogo> gmaxwell: actually, it's not showing in /mode #bitcoin-dev q either
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431 2014-06-19 07:48:19 <gmaxwell> michagogo: not yet in here, but I've done it in other channels. I was giving people a chance to protest the idea in here.
432 2014-06-19 07:48:25 <michagogo> Ah, I see
433 2014-06-19 07:48:32 <michagogo> And it worked as expected there?
434 2014-06-19 07:48:46 <gmaxwell> It didn't quiet everyone! :)
435 2014-06-19 07:48:46 <michagogo> Maybe they fixed the weirdness. *shrug*
436 2014-06-19 07:49:02 <michagogo> gmaxwell: but did it quiet whoever it's supposed to?
437 2014-06-19 07:49:21 <gmaxwell> didn't test.
438 2014-06-19 07:49:32 <gmaxwell> easier to let the spammers test it.
439 2014-06-19 07:49:50 johnsoft has joined
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441 2014-06-19 07:56:14 <warren> hmm, debug.log no longer logs txid's entering the mempool if they are non-wallet?
442 2014-06-19 07:56:29 mapppum has joined
443 2014-06-19 07:56:57 <wumpus> could be that you need some debug flag
444 2014-06-19 07:57:11 <warren> 0.8 didn't need it
445 2014-06-19 07:57:26 <wumpus> logging was pretty much overhauled in 0.9
446 2014-06-19 07:57:35 <wumpus> lots less spam by default
447 2014-06-19 07:57:44 <warren> ahhh
448 2014-06-19 07:57:53 MaxSan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
449 2014-06-19 07:58:11 <wumpus> debug logging was divided into categories
450 2014-06-19 07:58:13 <wumpus> etc
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463 2014-06-19 08:10:31 <ThomasV> hi, is there a proposal on a compact serialization format for partially signed transactions?
464 2014-06-19 08:10:50 <ThomasV> I mean, including bip32 xpub and derivation path
465 2014-06-19 08:11:25 <ThomasV> petertodd: I think you mentionned this in amsterdam ^
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467 2014-06-19 08:16:20 <michagogo> wumpus: what's v0.9.2.1?
468 2014-06-19 08:16:41 ThomasV has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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471 2014-06-19 08:17:07 <michagogo> ...and why does a git fetch not find it?
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475 2014-06-19 08:19:24 <michagogo> Uh, wtf? Is github just being weird?
476 2014-06-19 08:20:23 <michagogo> Why is GH showing a v0.9.2.1 tag, while `git fetch upstream` doesn't show it? o_O
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483 2014-06-19 08:24:52 <michagogo> Ah, there it is
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485 2014-06-19 08:27:30 <wumpus> 0.9.2.1 is a re-release of 0.9.2 which fixes two issues, one macox-only UI with displaying addresses and another that an fixes exception at shutdown in some cases (on all platforms)
486 2014-06-19 08:27:49 <wumpus> if you have no problems with 0.9.2 there is no need to upgrade to it
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492 2014-06-19 08:36:28 <michagogo> wumpus: Hm, how come I had to git fetch --tags to get it?
493 2014-06-19 08:36:40 <michagogo> A regular fetch/pull didn't get it like it usually does
494 2014-06-19 08:36:52 <wumpus> michagogo: I have no clue
495 2014-06-19 08:37:08 <wumpus> it worked fine for me (gitian gets the tag, for example)
496 2014-06-19 08:37:55 * michagogo boots his VM
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531 2014-06-19 09:18:42 <ThomasV> oh I see, bip10
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537 2014-06-19 09:28:04 <SomeoneWeird> michagogo: heh weird, i had to do that too
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585 2014-06-19 10:39:00 <xabbix> I'm running a bunch of full nodes and want to save the debug.logs in a way that will allow me to review them later on in some way. Any ideas? I can stream them all somehow to a central location, not sure how or with what tools.
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588 2014-06-19 10:41:03 <SomeoneWeird> rsyslog can probably do it
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591 2014-06-19 10:44:11 <upb> syslog-ng can too :p
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593 2014-06-19 10:45:04 <Luke-Jr> metalog as well
594 2014-06-19 10:45:09 <Luke-Jr> ⦠I think
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596 2014-06-19 10:46:09 <SomeoneWeird> upb: same old, i'm not a sysadmin :P
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611 2014-06-19 11:08:58 <bmcgee> hey guys, how many peers does bitcoind try to maintain? And does it try to do anything to increase the diversity of those peers to try and minimise the chance of getting a late notification of a better branch if you know what I mean?
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614 2014-06-19 11:09:49 <michagogo> bmcgee: it makes 8 outgoing connections
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616 2014-06-19 11:10:21 <michagogo> And IIRC it tries to make them in different IP address blocks
617 2014-06-19 11:10:33 <michagogo> Don't remember if it's /8, /16, or something else
618 2014-06-19 11:10:41 <bmcgee> michagogo: ah I suspected something of the sort
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620 2014-06-19 11:11:16 <bmcgee> michagogo: the peers are discovered via IRC and DNS correct?
621 2014-06-19 11:11:21 <michagogo> no
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623 2014-06-19 11:11:28 <michagogo> ;;bc,wiki satoshi client peer discovery
624 2014-06-19 11:11:29 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Satoshi_Client_Node_Discovery | Mar 13, 2014 ... The Satoshi client discovers the IP address and port of nodes in several ... Upon startup, if peer node discovery is needed, the client then issues ...
625 2014-06-19 11:11:30 <michagogo> ^
626 2014-06-19 11:11:39 <bmcgee> michagogo: thx iâll have a look
627 2014-06-19 11:12:03 <michagogo> Basically, it keeps a database on disk of nodes
628 2014-06-19 11:12:15 <michagogo> If needed, it uses dns seeds
629 2014-06-19 11:12:31 <michagogo> And then, if still needed, it falls back on a list of hard-coded peers
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631 2014-06-19 11:13:30 <michagogo> But once a node has been on the network for a while, IIRC it doesn't need the DNS seeds, it just uses its list of nodes
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633 2014-06-19 11:14:45 <michagogo> bmcgee: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/v0.9.2.1/src/netbase.cpp#L806
634 2014-06-19 11:14:58 <petertodd> ThomasV: no that I know of
635 2014-06-19 11:15:02 <bmcgee> michagogo: thx for the overview
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637 2014-06-19 11:17:37 <bmcgee> michagogo: whatâs the term for when you receive a block that has a greater height but not the prevHash you were expecting indicating there is a longer alternative blockchain?
638 2014-06-19 11:18:02 <bmcgee> michagogo: i seem to remember there being one
639 2014-06-19 11:18:11 <michagogo> bmcgee: what do you mean "what's the term"?
640 2014-06-19 11:18:35 <bmcgee> michagogo: sounds stupid i know, iâve just been calling it a split. But i have a vague memory of a better term being used
641 2014-06-19 11:18:46 [EddyF]_ is now known as [EddyFerreira]
642 2014-06-19 11:19:15 <bmcgee> michagogo: donât worry about it
643 2014-06-19 11:19:29 <wumpus> a chain reorganization?
644 2014-06-19 11:20:04 <wumpus> that's how it's usually called
645 2014-06-19 11:20:29 <michagogo> bmcgee: a reorg is when you switch from one chain to another, if that's what you mean
646 2014-06-19 11:20:42 <bmcgee> michagogo: thatâs the one
647 2014-06-19 11:21:01 <michagogo> That happens once you know of a full better chain, though
648 2014-06-19 11:21:17 <bmcgee> typically how often does a reorg happen
649 2014-06-19 11:21:22 <michagogo> Not just "a block that has a greater height but not the prevHash you were expecting"
650 2014-06-19 11:21:58 <bmcgee> michagogo: yeah, i meant was if a node receives a block like that it triggers further processing to determine if a reorg is necessary
651 2014-06-19 11:22:15 <michagogo> bmcgee: well, 1-block reorgs tend to happen whenever two miners find a block on the same previous block
652 2014-06-19 11:22:24 <michagogo> But not for everyone
653 2014-06-19 11:22:42 <michagogo> If you have block A, and two blocks are mined, B1 and B@
654 2014-06-19 11:22:44 <michagogo> B2*
655 2014-06-19 11:23:02 <michagogo> If you first hear of B1, but then a C2 is found on top of B2, you have a small reorg
656 2014-06-19 11:23:21 <michagogo> But if you heard of B2 first, you don't reorg
657 2014-06-19 11:23:34 <bmcgee> I would assume it takes less than 10 mins for knowledge of a block to propogate through the network meaning by the time the next block is found all nodes have caught up if necessary
658 2014-06-19 11:23:42 <michagogo> bmcgee: well, no
659 2014-06-19 11:23:54 <michagogo> It's not a progress bar that takes 10 minutes to fill and then a block is generated
660 2014-06-19 11:24:11 <michagogo> ;;calc [nethash] * 1000000000 * 600
661 2014-06-19 11:24:11 <gribble> 65301873052200001536
662 2014-06-19 11:24:12 <bmcgee> michagogo: i didnât mean that. I understand the difficulty adjusts to try and aim for 10 mins
663 2014-06-19 11:24:18 <michagogo> Yes
664 2014-06-19 11:24:38 <bmcgee> i just meant that on average, if the 10 min is maintained then most if not all nodes should be caught up before the next block
665 2014-06-19 11:24:40 <michagogo> Basically, each time you hash a block header
666 2014-06-19 11:24:42 crunk-juice has joined
667 2014-06-19 11:24:51 <bmcgee> meaning reorgs are typically small and quick
668 2014-06-19 11:24:57 <michagogo> there's a very, very small chance of that turning out a valid block
669 2014-06-19 11:25:01 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
670 2014-06-19 11:25:13 <michagogo> On average, one in every 65301873052200001536 or so hashes is a valid block
671 2014-06-19 11:25:29 <michagogo> So yes, on average it's one every 10 minutes
672 2014-06-19 11:25:47 <michagogo> But each hash, each attempt at a block, has a tiny chance of succeeding
673 2014-06-19 11:26:02 <michagogo> ;;tblb 3600
674 2014-06-19 11:26:03 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 1 hour and 0 seconds to generate is 5 days, 9 hours, 23 minutes, and 24 seconds
675 2014-06-19 11:26:27 <michagogo> Very long or very short amounts of time can pass between blocks
676 2014-06-19 11:26:35 <Apocalyptic> <bmcgee> I would assume it takes less than 10 mins for knowledge of a block to propogate through the network // that is true
677 2014-06-19 11:26:43 <Apocalyptic> not sure why micha negated
678 2014-06-19 11:26:50 <michagogo> Apocalyptic: the first part is true
679 2014-06-19 11:26:58 <michagogo> The second isn't always
680 2014-06-19 11:27:07 <michagogo> Or rather, it doesn't follow from the first part
681 2014-06-19 11:27:15 <bmcgee> indeed.
682 2014-06-19 11:27:19 <michagogo> In some cases, two miners will happen to get lucky at the same time
683 2014-06-19 11:27:35 <michagogo> And both find a block at close to the same time
684 2014-06-19 11:28:14 <bmcgee> What iâm really trying to understand is the likelihood of long chain splits. As in 1 hour later your bitcoind realises thereâs a fuller alternative out there and the info itâs been giving you for the last hour is now invalidated
685 2014-06-19 11:28:34 <michagogo> That's unlikely.
686 2014-06-19 11:28:53 <michagogo> Whenever there's a fork, it almost always resolves itself within a block or two
687 2014-06-19 11:29:03 <bmcgee> how unlikely is what Iâm trying to understand
688 2014-06-19 11:29:07 <dsnrk> recently we had a 3 block stale chain.
689 2014-06-19 11:29:44 <michagogo> The chances of a fork lasting more than 1 block decrease exponentially (I think?) for each block
690 2014-06-19 11:29:59 <bmcgee> are there any stats on stales chains
691 2014-06-19 11:30:03 <michagogo> Say the chance of a fork were 1 in 600
692 2014-06-19 11:30:14 <michagogo> the chance of a 2-block fork would be 1 in ,,(calc 600**2)
693 2014-06-19 11:30:14 <gribble> 360000
694 2014-06-19 11:30:24 hearn has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
695 2014-06-19 11:30:40 <dsnrk> bmcgee: nothing stops that. you could have multiple side chains at one height.
696 2014-06-19 11:30:43 <michagogo> bmcgee: their very nature makes it very hard to get a comprehensive picture of stale chains or forks
697 2014-06-19 11:30:58 <bmcgee> michagogo: true
698 2014-06-19 11:30:59 <michagogo> Because a block won't be relayed if it's not part of the best chain
699 2014-06-19 11:31:27 <dsnrk> blockchain.info used to track orphan blocks.. but yeah they broke that ages ago and never fixed it.
700 2014-06-19 11:31:28 <michagogo> You can track reorgs, but maybe you happened to hear of the block that ended up in the longest chain first
701 2014-06-19 11:31:45 <dsnrk> and of course bc.i only showed the ones they knew about. not every orphan makes it to every node.
702 2014-06-19 11:31:47 blockframe has joined
703 2014-06-19 11:31:59 <bmcgee> yeah impossible to track accurately
704 2014-06-19 11:32:16 Zarutian has joined
705 2014-06-19 11:32:19 <blockframe> I'd like to propose a new system for transaction confirmation
706 2014-06-19 11:32:31 haskoiner has joined
707 2014-06-19 11:32:58 <bmcgee> naively speaking increasing the number of outgoing connects and trying to ensure their diversity should help reduce the likelihood of larger stale chains for a node?
708 2014-06-19 11:33:05 <bmcgee> *outgoing connections
709 2014-06-19 11:33:27 <blockframe> Currently, transactions are batched up into individual blocks, requiring an average of 10 minutes to achieve 1 confirmation status. I believe a slight modification can allow transactions to have the same security as 1conf, near instantaneously.
710 2014-06-19 11:33:56 <michagogo> blockframe: You're probably missing a reason why it won't work, but go on...
711 2014-06-19 11:34:31 <blockframe> Rather than mining a block entitling you to put in a snapshot of transactions, mining a block allows you to sign/verify transactions for as long as until someone else mines another block.
712 2014-06-19 11:34:53 liori_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
713 2014-06-19 11:35:01 <dsnrk> er
714 2014-06-19 11:35:10 <bmcgee> doesnât that still suffer a reorg problem?
715 2014-06-19 11:35:26 <dsnrk> so a node can be islanded and then the current head can sign any transactions they want?
716 2014-06-19 11:35:47 <blockframe> dsnrk, yes, but this islanded attack is also possible currently, is it not?
717 2014-06-19 11:35:48 <dsnrk> if I solve a block, I can isolate your node and just sign whatever transactions I want.
718 2014-06-19 11:35:50 <Apocalyptic> sounds like a win
719 2014-06-19 11:36:17 <michagogo> blockframe: no, it's not
720 2014-06-19 11:36:24 <blockframe> dsnrk, you already can by just including what transactions you want to double spend when you island..
721 2014-06-19 11:36:35 <dsnrk> blockframe: no it's not, as blocks take a lot of effort to solve. I can't island and feed you false information without solving full blocks worth of work.
722 2014-06-19 11:36:40 <Apocalyptic> blockframe, nobody can sign tx if they don't have the corresponding privkeys
723 2014-06-19 11:37:01 <blockframe> Apocalyptic, ah sorry, I should not have used 'sign' but rather 'verify'
724 2014-06-19 11:37:08 <blockframe> dsnrk, I see your point
725 2014-06-19 11:37:27 <blockframe> confirmations would be tangibly weaker in this system as it would increase the impact of an islanding attack
726 2014-06-19 11:37:36 <dsnrk> yep. anti-islanding is yet another reason we have PoW.
727 2014-06-19 11:37:52 <blockframe> dsnrk, well this would still be PoW :P
728 2014-06-19 11:37:54 <michagogo> Also, what stops the solver of the last block from signing two conflicting transactions?
729 2014-06-19 11:38:01 <michagogo> No, it wouldn't
730 2014-06-19 11:38:17 <michagogo> The point of PoW is that you're expending resources to commit to something
731 2014-06-19 11:38:44 benrcole has joined
732 2014-06-19 11:38:48 <blockframe> michagogo, nodes reject the current block if there are two conflicting transactions, and verifies must be also down in a merkle root chain
733 2014-06-19 11:39:17 <michagogo> You're calculating a SHA256^2, on average 65 quintillion times, in the process of committing to a block
734 2014-06-19 11:39:22 <dsnrk> blockframe: signing two conflicting transactions would be valid in our network. only in blocks can conflicts not happen.
735 2014-06-19 11:39:43 <blockframe> dsnrk, right, and the miner verifying it is like including it in a block
736 2014-06-19 11:39:48 <michagogo> blockframe: no it's not
737 2014-06-19 11:39:59 <Apocalyptic> indeed it's not
738 2014-06-19 11:40:14 <Apocalyptic> you seem to lack the detailed view of how all this works
739 2014-06-19 11:40:16 <michagogo> Because in your system, once a miner solves a block he can "verify" as many transactions and whatever transactions he wants for free
740 2014-06-19 11:40:50 <blockframe> michagogo, that is correct, OK this isn't PoW as there is no commitment to a particular state
741 2014-06-19 11:40:59 <michagogo> With PoW, you're spending a lot of energy on adding a predetermined set of transactions to the chain
742 2014-06-19 11:41:16 <blockframe> however: 2 confirmations (1 verified, and another block that builds upon the last) would be more secure than 1conf in PoW
743 2014-06-19 11:41:23 <blockframe> michagogo, yes, I understand now thanks :)
744 2014-06-19 11:41:56 <blockframe> 1conf would be near-instant (miners would want to verify txes ASAP due to orphans), and 2conf would happen when there would normally have been 1conf
745 2014-06-19 11:42:03 <michagogo> ...no
746 2014-06-19 11:42:11 <michagogo> ...because the next block can have anything in it
747 2014-06-19 11:42:21 <blockframe> michagogo, it must build upon the last
748 2014-06-19 11:42:29 <michagogo> blockframe: yes
749 2014-06-19 11:42:38 <dsnrk> what if I haven't seen a "verified" transactin and I build a block without it?
750 2014-06-19 11:42:49 <michagogo> I'm saying, your "verifying" of a transaction doesn't add to the block
751 2014-06-19 11:43:16 <blockframe> dsnrk, then that is the same as if you build a block on top of an outdated block, because verifies would be in a merkle root chain
752 2014-06-19 11:43:21 <michagogo> You find a block. You "verify" a transaction. I find a block with a transaction conflicting the one you "verified".
753 2014-06-19 11:43:52 <Apocalyptic> blockframe, please there is no point in discussion your broken proposal further...
754 2014-06-19 11:43:59 <blockframe> michagogo, the block you find would include the hash of the last known verify
755 2014-06-19 11:44:00 <Apocalyptic> *discussing
756 2014-06-19 11:44:11 <blockframe> verifies aren't individual, but the miner must build them on top of each other
757 2014-06-19 11:44:21 <michagogo> blockframe: okay, you just say in your block "I haven't seen any verifys"
758 2014-06-19 11:44:24 <dsnrk> blockframe: you can't assume any peer has seen a particular transaction. what if one peer has seen a "confirmed" transaction and another hasn't? that means two peers with have a different idea of the state of the consensus.. and the chain forks.
759 2014-06-19 11:44:31 <blockframe> michagogo, then your block would not be a valid block.
760 2014-06-19 11:44:36 <michagogo> blockframe: wtf
761 2014-06-19 11:44:52 <michagogo> but what if you actually haven't seen any verifies?
762 2014-06-19 11:44:53 <blockframe> michagogo, the header in your block of the last tx-state merkle root hash would be different to what all other nodes see
763 2014-06-19 11:44:54 <dsnrk> yeah.. see my consensus comment.
764 2014-06-19 11:45:06 <michagogo> You cannot have instant consensus. Ever.
765 2014-06-19 11:45:18 <dsnrk> blockframe: can we take this to #bitcoin please? this is completely off topic for -dev.
766 2014-06-19 11:45:27 <michagogo> The Satoshi blockchain system gives you a mechanism for eventual consensus, and what dsnrk said.
767 2014-06-19 11:45:34 <blockframe> okay, sorry.
768 2014-06-19 11:55:33 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
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794 2014-06-19 12:41:22 MobChrome has joined
795 2014-06-19 12:42:16 <MobChrome> can anyone tell me why my wallet wants to send a .1 tx fee
796 2014-06-19 12:42:44 <MobChrome> and it's not set in the client i checked \
797 2014-06-19 12:42:46 Swoxxx has left ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
798 2014-06-19 12:43:34 mmatthew_43 has joined
799 2014-06-19 12:44:03 Aido has joined
800 2014-06-19 12:45:03 <longfloat> MobChrome: not configured in .bitcoin/bitcoin.conf ?
801 2014-06-19 12:45:08 bmcgee has joined
802 2014-06-19 12:45:38 <hearn> sipa: what do you think about https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4351#issuecomment-46554983 ?
803 2014-06-19 12:45:47 <MobChrome> longfloat: i'm using the gui for OSX
804 2014-06-19 12:46:01 <MobChrome> my tx is set in the gui to 0.01
805 2014-06-19 12:46:17 <MobChrome> but when i try to send something it wants to send .1
806 2014-06-19 12:46:27 <dsnrk> 0.01 is a huge fee as well
807 2014-06-19 12:46:28 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
808 2014-06-19 12:46:34 Aido_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
809 2014-06-19 12:46:42 liori has joined
810 2014-06-19 12:46:47 <dsnrk> 0.0001 is enough for almost anything
811 2014-06-19 12:47:16 <dsnrk> remember the fee is per kilobyte, not a set value for every transaction.
812 2014-06-19 12:47:38 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
813 2014-06-19 12:48:47 <Graet> how much dust are you trying to combine and send in 1 tx?
814 2014-06-19 12:49:59 xenog has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
815 2014-06-19 12:50:21 haskoiner has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
816 2014-06-19 12:50:54 rdymac has joined
817 2014-06-19 12:50:54 <dugo> miners should give you a premium instead for cleaning up that much dust/utxo
818 2014-06-19 12:50:58 haskoiner has joined
819 2014-06-19 12:51:07 <MobChrome> i still don't get it
820 2014-06-19 12:51:16 <MobChrome> won't let me send anything now
821 2014-06-19 12:51:28 <MobChrome> was fine until i did the update to 0.9.2
822 2014-06-19 12:52:06 <dsnrk> I guess the first question is why you think 0.01BTC is *ever* necessary for a transaction
823 2014-06-19 12:52:59 crunk-juice has joined
824 2014-06-19 12:57:08 Starduster has joined
825 2014-06-19 12:59:20 <MobChrome> dsnrk: http://i.imgur.com/ec4lbwW.png
826 2014-06-19 12:59:43 yubrew has joined
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828 2014-06-19 13:00:17 <SomeoneWeird> wow
829 2014-06-19 13:00:24 <dsnrk> what
830 2014-06-19 13:00:34 Starduster_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
831 2014-06-19 13:01:09 <dsnrk> MobChrome: you should have the fee in the GUI set to 0.0001 BTC/kb, having it set to 0.01BTC is insane. I think that's what's causing that..
832 2014-06-19 13:01:11 <hearn> you must have a lot of dust
833 2014-06-19 13:01:19 <hearn> or yes, changed the ui settings ...
834 2014-06-19 13:01:45 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
835 2014-06-19 13:01:51 <MobChrome> i did change them
836 2014-06-19 13:01:55 <MobChrome> i will show you guys
837 2014-06-19 13:02:18 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
838 2014-06-19 13:03:13 akstunt600 has joined
839 2014-06-19 13:04:16 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
840 2014-06-19 13:05:04 <SomeoneWeird> well then, as hearn said, you must have a lot of dust :)
841 2014-06-19 13:05:19 <dsnrk> > my tx is set in the gui to 0.01
842 2014-06-19 13:05:38 <dsnrk> dust and a crazy high fee/kb
843 2014-06-19 13:05:54 micronxd has joined
844 2014-06-19 13:06:12 <dsnrk> would a transaction with that high of a fee even be relayed? I thought it would be non-standard.
845 2014-06-19 13:07:51 SpicyShibe has quit (Quit: leaving)
846 2014-06-19 13:08:27 maraoz has joined
847 2014-06-19 13:09:19 Qatz has joined
848 2014-06-19 13:09:46 <blockframe> dsnrk, aren't fees >= ? not >= and <=
849 2014-06-19 13:09:51 <MobChrome> lol SomeoneWeird so i can't move it than
850 2014-06-19 13:10:29 <dsnrk> blockframe: there's a sanity check on sendrawtransaction that stops users from sending all of their outputs to fees.
851 2014-06-19 13:11:16 <dsnrk> blockframe: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/9d14e689c86a395c11a530767db4ddf895446ba8
852 2014-06-19 13:11:21 <blockframe> ah ty.
853 2014-06-19 13:11:26 <MobChrome> dsnrk: yes i sent one .1 and i was charged .2
854 2014-06-19 13:11:29 Qatz has quit (Client Quit)
855 2014-06-19 13:11:56 <dsnrk> MobChrome: you have the fees set far too high! don't change the defaults if you don't understand what they affect
856 2014-06-19 13:12:10 Qatz has joined
857 2014-06-19 13:12:14 <MobChrome> dsnrk: i didn't change anything
858 2014-06-19 13:12:26 <SomeoneWeird> dsnrk: it might not be settings, he might have a crazy amount of inputs?
859 2014-06-19 13:12:32 <dsnrk> you said it was set to 0.01BTC in the settings though?
860 2014-06-19 13:12:35 <dsnrk> surely that's not default
861 2014-06-19 13:13:02 <MobChrome> well 0.0001
862 2014-06-19 13:13:16 <MobChrome> didn't type it right before sorry
863 2014-06-19 13:13:16 <SomeoneWeird> :\
864 2014-06-19 13:13:19 <dsnrk> alright, so that's not it.
865 2014-06-19 13:13:20 * SomeoneWeird facepalms
866 2014-06-19 13:13:47 <MobChrome> SomeoneWeird: be nice
867 2014-06-19 13:14:18 <SomeoneWeird> MobChrome: that was me being nice :)
868 2014-06-19 13:14:24 <MobChrome> :P
869 2014-06-19 13:14:43 <dsnrk> MobChrome: would you be happy sending me the TXID of the 0.2BTC fee transaction? I'm sort of curious how your wallet got so dusty.
870 2014-06-19 13:15:31 <MobChrome> dsnrk: did you not get my msg
871 2014-06-19 13:15:47 Qatz is now known as SpicyShibe
872 2014-06-19 13:18:06 HANTI is now known as hanti
873 2014-06-19 13:19:50 crunk-juice has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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877 2014-06-19 13:22:35 <MobChrome> so SomeoneWeird you have any ideas on this one
878 2014-06-19 13:23:30 <dsnrk> I've had a look at MobChrome's transaction and it's not *terrible*, it's a bit dusty (5.5KB) but somehow got a 0.12BTC fee for that.
879 2014-06-19 13:23:37 <SomeoneWeird> nope, dsnrk is likely to know more about it than me, sorry
880 2014-06-19 13:25:10 <dsnrk> MobChrome: I don't know much about the fee stuff or the GUI, you'll need to stick around and see what somebody else says about it. the fee does seem to be a little high than it should be though.
881 2014-06-19 13:25:38 <MobChrome> http://i.imgur.com/BBN16kb.png
882 2014-06-19 13:26:03 <crunk-juice> Anyone here have any information on multi-tier cold storage schemes?
883 2014-06-19 13:26:05 <MobChrome> dsnrk: ok guess i will wait and see if someone can help with this
884 2014-06-19 13:26:36 <MobChrome> i know it's not a lot of BTC but something is not right that is for sure
885 2014-06-19 13:27:22 <dsnrk> MobChrome: yow dude that is your problem, it needs to be 100 times lower than that!
886 2014-06-19 13:27:32 <dsnrk> 0.0001BTC not 0.01BTC!
887 2014-06-19 13:27:55 <MobChrome> dsnrk: everytime i change it goes back to the other
888 2014-06-19 13:28:09 MolokoDeck has joined
889 2014-06-19 13:28:52 <SomeoneWeird> MobChrome: what version of qt are you using?
890 2014-06-19 13:29:04 <MobChrome> 0.9.2
891 2014-06-19 13:29:08 <MobChrome> on OSX
892 2014-06-19 13:29:24 <MobChrome> just very weird thats all
893 2014-06-19 13:29:35 helo_ is now known as helo
894 2014-06-19 13:29:38 micronxd has quit (Quit: micronxd)
895 2014-06-19 13:30:58 <SomeoneWeird> hrm, wumpus said there was a bug in 0.9.2 osx build for the gui
896 2014-06-19 13:31:23 <dsnrk> SomeoneWeird: that was a font rending thing and a crash on shutdown
897 2014-06-19 13:31:24 Insty has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
898 2014-06-19 13:31:33 <SomeoneWeird> dsnrk: right, just looked
899 2014-06-19 13:31:35 <SomeoneWeird> nevermind me then
900 2014-06-19 13:32:18 <dsnrk> I thought the client was meant to avoid including dust outputs too? the transaction has some outputs like 0.00000002 BTC which just blew out the size of the transaction even more.
901 2014-06-19 13:32:45 <MobChrome> wow i just got it to work
902 2014-06-19 13:32:53 <MobChrome> but lost .1 in the process
903 2014-06-19 13:32:55 <MobChrome> lol
904 2014-06-19 13:33:09 <MobChrome> brb phone and i will tell you dsnrk
905 2014-06-19 13:33:32 <MobChrome> seems like there was a active command line tx fee that was coded in for some odd reson
906 2014-06-19 13:33:36 <MobChrome> reason*
907 2014-06-19 13:33:42 <SomeoneWeird> eh?
908 2014-06-19 13:35:09 Insty has joined
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912 2014-06-19 13:38:14 <venzen> MobChrome: do you have a bitcoin.conf file? what does it contain?
913 2014-06-19 13:38:34 <MobChrome> venzen: no conf file
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945 2014-06-19 14:06:12 <gavinandresen> wumpus: FYI, my OSX gitian builds still don't match after cleaning up my Gitian VMs (uninstalling everything but base packages, then downloading-only-but-not-installing things needed to build).
946 2014-06-19 14:06:31 <wumpus> gavinandresen: very strange!
947 2014-06-19 14:06:35 <gavinandresen> wumpus: My MacOSX10.7.sdk.tar.gz input is different....
948 2014-06-19 14:07:00 <gavinandresen> I downloaded that from Apple directly and did the extract/tar thing.
949 2014-06-19 14:07:11 <wumpus> gavinandresen: that could be the reason in theory but it is created non-deterministically
950 2014-06-19 14:07:20 <wumpus> so everyone's will be different unless they copied it :)
951 2014-06-19 14:07:53 erska has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
952 2014-06-19 14:07:55 <wumpus> but that depends on what is different, is it just timestamps/file ordering or the headers/libs itself
953 2014-06-19 14:08:02 erska has joined
954 2014-06-19 14:09:44 <gavinandresen> Always possible my cleanup of the VMs didn't do what I thought it would, tooâ¦.
955 2014-06-19 14:10:51 <wumpus> yes, your non-standard way of doing it complicates things :)
956 2014-06-19 14:11:23 <wumpus> hm we could also send you the dmg (the one that matches the others) for code-signing
957 2014-06-19 14:11:34 <gavinandresen> sure
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1014 2014-06-19 15:11:49 hanti is now known as HANTI
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1017 2014-06-19 15:20:26 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell
1018 2014-06-19 15:20:28 <skinnkavaj> Comments about
1019 2014-06-19 15:20:28 <skinnkavaj> https://medium.com/@lmgoodman/preventing-mining-pool-concentration-with-lamport-signatures-e7601c474343
1020 2014-06-19 15:20:36 <skinnkavaj> ?
1021 2014-06-19 15:20:41 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr
1022 2014-06-19 15:22:19 <gmaxwell> This does not address any of the current concerns, and would potentially make things much worse.
1023 2014-06-19 15:22:38 lclc has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1024 2014-06-19 15:22:48 <gmaxwell> The claim that that particular proposal preserves hardware is incorrect, as well.
1025 2014-06-19 15:24:20 <gmaxwell> The idea of making miners sign in blocks and testing the signature has been proposed many times before, as far back as 2011. It would be a nussance for all forms of pooling, including P2pool, thus forcing people into hosting. GHash.io's hashpower is substantially captive hosted hashpowerâ part of the reason that that negative PR didn't change things... so it's not addressing the issue we have right now.
1026 2014-06-19 15:24:29 hearn has quit ()
1027 2014-06-19 15:25:37 <gmaxwell> It wouldn't however prevent poolingâ pools could require miners make a 25 BTC deposit in order to pool, â since block theft is detectable but not preventable in that model, they could enforce the deposit.
1028 2014-06-19 15:25:40 micronxd has quit (Quit: micronxd)
1029 2014-06-19 15:26:57 <gmaxwell> WRT hardware, existing hardware can mostly only handle the existing header and nonce structure very specifically. The existing hardware is not a generic sha256 implementation.
1030 2014-06-19 15:27:17 micronxd has joined
1031 2014-06-19 15:27:19 AdrianG has joined
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1033 2014-06-19 15:27:21 <AdrianG> hi all
1034 2014-06-19 15:27:36 <AdrianG> is there any talk about non-outsourcable puzzles
1035 2014-06-19 15:27:40 <gmaxwell> (though a variation that didn't break hardware could be doneâ if it were desirable, which I believe it is not)
1036 2014-06-19 15:28:24 <gmaxwell> AdrianG: This is really not the channel for it. But I believed the existing proposals are a misguided non-solution.
1037 2014-06-19 15:28:35 <AdrianG> gmaxwell: eyal's proposal?
1038 2014-06-19 15:29:04 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj just linked to https://medium.com/@lmgoodman/preventing-mining-pool-concentration-with-lamport-signatures-e7601c474343 moments before you joined and I responded to it.
1039 2014-06-19 15:29:50 <AdrianG> so same story, wallet's private key.
1040 2014-06-19 15:30:13 <AdrianG> could you re-paste your response then
1041 2014-06-19 15:30:23 kermit has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1042 2014-06-19 15:30:32 dangerm00se has joined
1043 2014-06-19 15:30:44 <gmaxwell> there are logs, please go read them in a moment when they show up. :) It would be rude to flood everyone with a repeat.
1044 2014-06-19 15:31:17 gonedrk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1045 2014-06-19 15:31:20 <AdrianG> url?
1046 2014-06-19 15:33:00 crunk-juice has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1047 2014-06-19 15:33:09 Grouver has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1048 2014-06-19 15:33:10 <gmaxwell> Speaking more generally: I think these approaches are fundimentally misguided. They attack the wrong problem: They inhibit pooling for variance reduction, which is beneficial and not harmfulâ and do nothing about selling your mining vote; just implictly hoping that if you cannot pool for variance reduction you won't sell your vote. Instead, since pooling for variance reduction is a necessary criteria for many to participate in mining ...
1049 2014-06-19 15:33:13 <andytoshi> AdrianG: http://bitcoinstats.com/ (public logs are in the /topic on all freenode channels)
1050 2014-06-19 15:33:14 benrcole has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1051 2014-06-19 15:33:16 <gmaxwell> ... such a change would likely drastically reduce participation (A speculation but an informed one), and would drive people into cloud/hosted mining (which is already quite popular and run in an unauditable manner) which is much worse. I made the point above that this is especially ironic in that ghash.io is primarly a cloud mining operation, â part of the reason the negative press didn't change things much.
1052 2014-06-19 15:33:26 benrcole has joined
1053 2014-06-19 15:33:26 <gmaxwell> It's in the topic: http://bitcoinstats.com/
1054 2014-06-19 15:33:56 <AdrianG> ic.
1055 2014-06-19 15:35:54 danielpbarron has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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1061 2014-06-19 15:40:42 elichai2 has joined
1062 2014-06-19 15:40:50 <elichai2> hey
1063 2014-06-19 15:41:23 gonedrk has joined
1064 2014-06-19 15:41:44 <elichai2> there is any way to run use bitcoin-cli(create address, multisig, rawtx etc.) from C code without 'system'?
1065 2014-06-19 15:42:10 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1066 2014-06-19 15:42:16 Chief_Panda has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1067 2014-06-19 15:43:03 akstunt600 has joined
1068 2014-06-19 15:43:26 <gmaxwell> elichai2: #bitcoin
1069 2014-06-19 15:45:11 <elichai2> but it is dvelopers connected.... but whatever...
1070 2014-06-19 15:45:13 <gmaxwell> AdrianG: Amiller's non-outsourcable puzzle has the advantage over the scheme I commented on above that you cannot recover pooling be requiring a deposit, since you cannot tell who stole, but it has some other limitations.
1071 2014-06-19 15:46:01 kermit has joined
1072 2014-06-19 15:46:24 <gmaxwell> (I unbanned him on PM request, he'd previously been banned for unfriendly tech support requests, I told him on unbanning that this channel was not for tech support and he should ask in #bitcoin)
1073 2014-06-19 15:47:55 <gmaxwell> AdrianG: First it requires a CRS ZK-SNARK, ignoring all the tech immaturity (he had to change his mining function to sha1 because the sha256 circuit was too complex for the software he had available, etc) the existing efficient ZK-SNARK solutions require a trusted setup. If violated, it would allow the party with the secret data to mine unlimited blocks for free.
1074 2014-06-19 15:48:37 <gmaxwell> Another limitation is that if most of the hashpower wanted pooling to work, they could simply soft-fork out any theft blocks which are created, removing the threat.
1075 2014-06-19 15:49:14 <gmaxwell> (relevant when you're already taking about an uncooperative party with nearly most of the hashpower!)
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1078 2014-06-19 15:51:05 <gmaxwell> There are also some more minor downsides, it effectively reduces all confirmation counts by 1 when there is a theft block. And stealing a block requires about 45 minutes of cpu time but must be done fast enough to avoid you being orphaned, because a miner finds blocks so rarely and the cost of stealing is so high, perhaps it's not really much of a threat after all.
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1081 2014-06-19 15:53:05 <AdrianG> gmaxwell: but i think all of those are going to fail.
1082 2014-06-19 15:53:16 Ostkaka has joined
1083 2014-06-19 15:53:23 <AdrianG> what if you just have in-trust mining? i.e. you pay me operating costs, and I operate mining for you, turn-key.
1084 2014-06-19 15:53:38 <AdrianG> you wouldnt know if im not doing anything fishy.
1085 2014-06-19 15:55:17 benrcole has joined
1086 2014-06-19 15:55:33 <gmaxwell> I think that before anyone can 'solve' this we need to better understand the specific nature of the problem. Is the degree of centeralization because of actual control of hardware being centeralized (e.g. by hardware vendors like KnC or Bitfury/cex/ghash taking their sales profits (>>10x markup) and buying their own hardware at cost), or because of investor funded cloud operations? Is it because of pools aggregating otherwise ...
1087 2014-06-19 15:55:39 <gmaxwell> ... decenteralized miners? If the latter is it just because people are unaware of alternatives? or because they consider the alternatives inferior? e.g. is it the cost of running a node or do the not like p2pool's accounting? If it's cloud operations instead, what the exact motivations there?
1088 2014-06-19 15:56:56 <gmaxwell> To the extent that the issue is stupid hardware buyers paying vendors to compete with them no technical solution can fix any of it.
1089 2014-06-19 15:57:12 posita has left ()
1090 2014-06-19 15:57:22 <Graet> i see a lot of ppl using cloud hashing to avoid heat + (exoensive in their country) power costs
1091 2014-06-19 15:57:32 <Graet> expensive*
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1093 2014-06-19 15:57:52 <dsnrk> gmaxwell: for me at least the hardware cost of p2pool was annoying. GBT + a small ARM board seems to be a lot better in that department.
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1095 2014-06-19 15:58:02 <gmaxwell> Graet: I don't believe any of the cloud hashing operations I've seen have costs below the costs where I am, and I have some of the most expensive power in the world.
1096 2014-06-19 15:58:27 <dsnrk> gmaxwell: PS claims < 5c/kW
1097 2014-06-19 15:58:31 <Graet> thats what ppl tell me, here power can be 48c
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1100 2014-06-19 15:58:52 <gmaxwell> dsnrk: thats _his_ cost.
1101 2014-06-19 15:59:31 <gmaxwell> the actual services are >40c/kWh that I've seen. Even if I'm right that doesn't mean graet is wrong.
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1103 2014-06-19 16:00:15 <gmaxwell> dsnrk: So there are two folds to that, one is that p2pool operating costs can be drastically reduced. But they would, of course, be higher than just being a blind hasher.
1104 2014-06-19 16:00:52 <gmaxwell> The gap could be reduced to ~0 with a change in the proof of work function. I don't know that the gap needs to be zero, however.
1105 2014-06-19 16:00:58 <Graet> noise is also a reason given for not having hardware at home, some asics sound like jets, i know one guy that had neighbors complain to council about the noise lol
1106 2014-06-19 16:01:10 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, er CH is offering $4.40/Gh today
1107 2014-06-19 16:01:15 <dsnrk> gmaxwell: as it stands p2pool can't really run that happily even on a fairly zippy processor. I found that in that case other pools were an awful lot faster at me updating to the latest work.
1108 2014-06-19 16:01:56 <dsnrk> Graet: the new Antminers should be good, they've swapped out the leafblower fan for proper thermal design and a fan on each end.
1109 2014-06-19 16:02:50 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, also literally nobody is paying $292/kW/month
1110 2014-06-19 16:02:54 <phantomcircuit> that's crazy talk
1111 2014-06-19 16:02:58 <Graet> cool, just passing on info, miners have passed to me re gmaxwell 's query, i talk to a different subset i think ;)
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1115 2014-06-19 16:07:03 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: uh. cloudhashing website appears to no longer disclose the management fees, but when I checked previously they were equal to about 40cts/kwh assuming the cointerra power efficiency.
1116 2014-06-19 16:07:22 <gmaxwell> pretty sleezy to not disclose that clearly, fwiw.
1117 2014-06-19 16:09:22 <AdrianG> is it possible to ensure decentralization even in theory?
1118 2014-06-19 16:09:27 <AdrianG> is it a solvable problem.
1119 2014-06-19 16:11:02 <dsnrk> I don't think so. anything a user can do in their home can be done at scale.
1120 2014-06-19 16:11:57 <gmaxwell> There is some somewhat wanky argument that heat disappation prefers decenteralization slightly, but its a fairly weak preference. I think the best you can do is avoid the avoidable biases that encourage centeralization.
1121 2014-06-19 16:11:58 <Hasimir> only in a way that everyone here would object to
1122 2014-06-19 16:12:20 <Hasimir> as it would involve biometric authentication of nodes ...
1123 2014-06-19 16:12:55 <dsnrk> biometric stuff normally needs a trusted party. fingerprints and what not are too noisy to use as cryptographic keys.
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1125 2014-06-19 16:13:35 <Hasimir> what about dna ... it would truly be the bleeding edge
1126 2014-06-19 16:13:42 * Hasimir ducks
1127 2014-06-19 16:14:12 <dsnrk> and even if you could do that, it doesn't enforce decentralisation. what stops me from going and getting whatever information is needed from a bunch of people? you can't prove they are present, so you're back to warehouses of central hardware.
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1129 2014-06-19 16:14:23 <gmaxwell> E.g. a lot of the centeralization todayâ that which results from people pooling for variance reductionâ is completely solvable. But other sourcesâ that that arises because running a node has costs (even though the costs are $1/month scale)â or because people want to use cloud facilities... not obviously as solvable.
1130 2014-06-19 16:14:55 <Hasimir> dsnrk, and a rather nasty interpretation of a slave server ...
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1132 2014-06-19 16:15:36 <Hasimir> yep, that was definitely one of my worse ideas (and I've had a few)
1133 2014-06-19 16:15:51 <dsnrk> gmaxwell: isn't a lot of what makes p2pool nasty to run just due to it being python?
1134 2014-06-19 16:16:35 <gmaxwell> dsnrk: presumably. I've never had much cause to profile it, it's stupidly fast on the i7 I run it on.
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1137 2014-06-19 16:17:51 <dsnrk> gmaxwell: right, well it's treacle slow and runs into swap on all the board I had handy. I don't really have a big enough mining setup to justify burning my only i7 box on p2pool. I'd love to see a cubieboard or odroid image that's optimised and built for p2pool. they could handle it.
1138 2014-06-19 16:18:47 <dsnrk> set up a little store. sell a Bitcoin Mining Dectralising Kit at cost.
1139 2014-06-19 16:19:29 <dsnrk> you get a ARM board, sd card with the software image on it, some stickers. problem solved.
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1141 2014-06-19 16:20:18 <gmaxwell> dsnrk: well if you're running into swap then thats explained completely on that basis alone. I dunno about "burning", it's 3% cpu usage on a one month average on the system here... though mine is a bit high as I've artifically forced the pseudoshare diff down to get better stats graphs.
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1144 2014-06-19 16:21:44 <gmaxwell> dsnrk: none of the existing arm stuff is really all that sutiable. It's almost all limited to 2GB ram, even though ram is cheap. And best available ecdsa is kinda slow on arm, e.g. 400 verifies a second vs 40k/s on the aformentioned i7.
1145 2014-06-19 16:21:54 <dsnrk> gmaxwell: it's slow just idling, I've found the memory usage is around 300MB at startup and rises up to about 600MB (which pushes me over the limit). if it was a little better it wouldn't be a problem. "burning" was more a comment that I can't use it for it's purpose, even though it does use a lot of power.
1146 2014-06-19 16:22:18 <gmaxwell> 2GB is viable today but you'd want such a device to have reasonable headroom.
1147 2014-06-19 16:22:36 <dsnrk> gmaxwell: don't think the cubieboard is *that* terrible at EC. are you just talking openssl benchmarks?
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1149 2014-06-19 16:23:31 <gmaxwell> dsnrk: libsecp256k1, openssl is half that speed on arm (those numbers are on a cortex-a9 at ~1.2GHz)
1150 2014-06-19 16:24:36 <gmaxwell> this isn't to say that it couldn't be a lot better with some optimization work, but I expect that it's still going to remain much lower operations/$ than x86_64.
1151 2014-06-19 16:25:09 <dsnrk> gmaxwell: ah, I was going to benchmark my dual A7 board but that'll suck even more :C
1152 2014-06-19 16:25:41 <gmaxwell> dsnrk: feel like learning neon? :)
1153 2014-06-19 16:27:34 <dsnrk> gmaxwell: a wha?
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1155 2014-06-19 16:27:49 <dizko> anyone know if mining pools starting using replace-by-fee?
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1169 2014-06-19 16:35:29 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it doesn't?
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1171 2014-06-19 16:35:36 <phantomcircuit> hmm
1172 2014-06-19 16:35:45 <phantomcircuit> (there is also no registration button anymore)
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1175 2014-06-19 16:37:10 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, anyways the 10% management fee was for the life of the contract, so at the start it was fairly expensive, but towards the end it's less than it costs to operate
1176 2014-06-19 16:37:44 <phantomcircuit> currently there is a $1.99/Gh contract w/ monthly fees of $0.20/Gh
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1178 2014-06-19 16:37:52 <cfields> wumpus: no tag?
1179 2014-06-19 16:37:53 OneMiner has joined
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1184 2014-06-19 16:38:38 <phantomcircuit> which is about $0.21/kWh (but of course includes a lot more than just electricity costs)
1185 2014-06-19 16:39:28 mmatthew_43 has joined
1186 2014-06-19 16:39:30 <cfields> mm, there it is. weird.
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1193 2014-06-19 16:44:30 <dizko> anyone? really, if pools start using replace by fee without any kind of announcement, that's seriously fucked up
1194 2014-06-19 16:44:48 <dsnrk> dizko: no it's not. 0conf transactions have never been safe.
1195 2014-06-19 16:45:14 <dizko> sure, but if the rules of the game are to be changed, that should be transparent
1196 2014-06-19 16:45:26 <justanotheruser> dizko: that isn't a rule
1197 2014-06-19 16:45:42 <dizko> its a fairly significant feature of how the ecosystem functions
1198 2014-06-19 16:45:58 <justanotheruser> dizko: it is how the ecosystem may funciton currently, but it isn't a rule
1199 2014-06-19 16:46:06 <justanotheruser> *function
1200 2014-06-19 16:46:53 <justanotheruser> You can't rely on people doing what is best for you, you have to assume they will do what's best for them and set up the incentives so they work for everyone.
1201 2014-06-19 16:47:02 <dizko> there really arent any 'rules' .... but i dont see how it benefits anyone for the way the pools operate to be so opaque
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1203 2014-06-19 16:47:08 <justanotheruser> Lol @ Peter Todd reddit post btw
1204 2014-06-19 16:47:20 <dizko> for example, filtering specific address is completely contrary to the ethos of bitcoin
1205 2014-06-19 16:47:32 <dsnrk> dizko: happens anyway though.
1206 2014-06-19 16:48:03 <dsnrk> gmaxwell: the numbers aren't really that terrible. my dual core a7 is not *that* much slower than my quad (with hyperthreading) i7. I'm testing with openssl though, with pieter's library that might be different.
1207 2014-06-19 16:48:39 <justanotheruser> dizko: Your security assumptions shouldn't assume tragedy of the commons doesn't exist.
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1209 2014-06-19 16:49:30 <gmaxwell> dsnrk: libsecp256k1 is ~6x faster than openssl on x86_64.
1210 2014-06-19 16:50:04 <dizko> its not like mining pools are one guy doing his own thing. they represent a huge responsibiltiy and are rewarded very great sums of value in bitcoin for it
1211 2014-06-19 16:50:22 <gmaxwell> dizko: reusing addresses in a way that makes that kind of filtering possible (/attractive, perahaps someday obligitory) is also pretty contrary.
1212 2014-06-19 16:50:31 <dizko> so changing their rules without letting anyone know isnt a crime, or breaking any rules
1213 2014-06-19 16:50:34 <dizko> but it is a dick move
1214 2014-06-19 16:50:35 <dsnrk> gmaxwell: for the sake of interest http://0bin.net/paste/X0CiIPynRq461FSq#mbgbyIy0/HaFM6rLl5fEnsKAb7Mtg6lkUHAjEtzG6Bg=
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1216 2014-06-19 16:50:41 <justanotheruser> dizko: They aren't changing any rules
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1218 2014-06-19 16:51:00 <justanotheruser> If they changed the network rules, then no full nodes would include their blocks
1219 2014-06-19 16:51:26 <gmaxwell> (not that I agree with anyone screwing you over, or anything like thatâ but just pointing out here that things that reuse addresses are using an insecure approach which is at odd with the design of bitcoin, which increases vulnerabality to censorshipâ arguably for everyone)
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1221 2014-06-19 16:52:16 <dizko> i pay miners thousands of dollars a month in fees, it would be basic etiquette to inform the community on the rules theyre playing by
1222 2014-06-19 16:52:25 <justanotheruser> dizko: you do???
1223 2014-06-19 16:52:35 <dizko> yes
1224 2014-06-19 16:52:50 <justanotheruser> Do you make hundreds of thousands of transactions?
1225 2014-06-19 16:53:03 <dizko> i didnt say i pay them tens of thousands a month
1226 2014-06-19 16:53:09 <dsnrk> dizko: I feel in no way obliged to tell anybody if I switched to that patch. it's better in my mind for the users of bitcoin anyway.
1227 2014-06-19 16:54:32 <justanotheruser> dizko: It is much better to not do things that are insecure like accept 0conf tx, than to hope miners will do what is bad for the network.
1228 2014-06-19 16:54:42 <hearn> wow, neat, can buy bitcoins at any post office in switzerland! http://www.fastcoin.ch/index
1229 2014-06-19 16:54:56 <dsnrk> gmaxwell: er and just to point out, I wasn't trying to prove you wrong by benchmarking. I was just curious to see how one of my underclocked cubieboards would do.
1230 2014-06-19 16:54:56 <dizko> i dont really care what rules miners go by, but i'd be nice if the pools would be transaparent about their rules
1231 2014-06-19 16:54:59 <dizko> and some consistency would be nice
1232 2014-06-19 16:55:24 <dizko> its looking like ill be stopping my service
1233 2014-06-19 16:55:29 <dizko> and not paying them thousands a month
1234 2014-06-19 16:55:48 <dsnrk> dizko: eh, how do you expect me to tell you all of these things? I don't accept transactions with uncompressed keys in them as a node rule.
1235 2014-06-19 16:55:55 <Graet> <dizko> its not like mining pools are one guy doing his own thing. they represent a huge responsibiltiy and are rewarded very great sums of value in bitcoin for it << most pools are run by "1 man" and traditional (non asic manufacturer created pools) the bulk of the bitcoin mined went (goes) to the miners contributing hashpower, nott the pool
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1239 2014-06-19 16:56:48 <dizko> its very arguable that virtual currency can work without rewarding miners so greatly
1240 2014-06-19 16:56:51 <justanotheruser> dizko: or you could just practice proper security and not worry about their policy :)
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1242 2014-06-19 16:57:39 <Graet> "greatly"?
1243 2014-06-19 16:57:52 <justanotheruser> ^that too
1244 2014-06-19 16:57:55 <Graet> only at todays prices, not at 2011 prices
1245 2014-06-19 16:57:57 <justanotheruser> miners barely make anything
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1247 2014-06-19 16:58:17 <dizko> well, yea fair enough, i understand that mining has very slim margins, so maybe more like "we waste a shitload of money on something that could be done MUCH cheaper"
1248 2014-06-19 16:58:22 <hearn> dsnrk: a little data structure or language for expressing policy in the coinbase would be useful. but ultimately bitcoin is a consensus system. it works best when there is .... consensus!
1249 2014-06-19 16:58:34 <dizko> so, perhaps i should just put my energy behind something else that uses maybe proof of stake or somethingh
1250 2014-06-19 16:59:02 <gmaxwell> dizko: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf
1251 2014-06-19 16:59:04 <dsnrk> dizko: replace a slightly inconvenient system with a totally broken one. sensible.
1252 2014-06-19 16:59:04 <justanotheruser> dizko: PoS doesn't work
1253 2014-06-19 16:59:31 <dizko> thanks for the doc, ill read up
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1255 2014-06-19 17:00:06 <dsnrk> hearn: that might be fun. get the miners to set flags in their coinbase about policies. at least then it would be easy to see what a pool supports and doesn't support. I'm all for it if I can set my evil bit.
1256 2014-06-19 17:00:13 <dizko> look, i realize im the one breaking the "rules" ... i just find it rude and fairly incomprehensible why at least the largest pools couldnt publish their filter criteria
1257 2014-06-19 17:00:44 <dsnrk> dizko: so get people motivated about it. convince enough people to ask the pools that they public it.
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1259 2014-06-19 17:00:51 <dizko> if ghash was like "hey, we're doing replace-by-fee now, good luck!"
1260 2014-06-19 17:00:53 <dizko> i could deal wit that
1261 2014-06-19 17:01:05 <gmaxwell> Anti-spam-ish criteria are, sadly, most effective when not published in great detail... but I'm only aware of one even moderately sized pool that makes its operating details even moderately public.
1262 2014-06-19 17:01:28 <dizko> sounds like security through obscurity to me
1263 2014-06-19 17:01:31 <dsnrk> pools are people, if enough people asked Graet to change his pools policy in a sensible way I'm sure he would oblige.
1264 2014-06-19 17:01:33 <gmaxwell> (not that replace by fee is an anti-spam criteria, but I know that your activity is likely to be burned by some sensible anti-spam criteria)
1265 2014-06-19 17:01:35 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: eligious?
1266 2014-06-19 17:01:47 <helo> isn't the point to not believe them until they actually do it? which would be better observed and considered than assumed.
1267 2014-06-19 17:01:57 <Graet> we normally run bitcoind defaults with a larger block size
1268 2014-06-19 17:02:00 <justanotheruser> dizko: Their policy isn't what is making them secure.
1269 2014-06-19 17:02:06 <justanotheruser> *Eligius
1270 2014-06-19 17:02:27 <dsnrk> Graet: would you be against publishing a text file with your current policy?
1271 2014-06-19 17:02:44 <Graet> not at all,
1272 2014-06-19 17:02:51 <justanotheruser> Graet: what pool do you run?
1273 2014-06-19 17:02:55 <Graet> ozcoin
1274 2014-06-19 17:03:03 <gmaxwell> dsnrk: It doesn't really matter, e.g. doesn't prevent things like ghash's 3k btc theft from betcoin dice.
1275 2014-06-19 17:04:16 <dsnrk> gmaxwell: well if they'd set their evil bit we could have rejected the blocks.
1276 2014-06-19 17:04:25 <dsnrk> gmaxwell: in seriousness it would be nice to know what pools supported, then you could guide people to make educated choices about what they are mining to support. currently we can't say why one pool has better policies than another because they aren't published.
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1278 2014-06-19 17:06:00 <gmaxwell> dsnrk: "maybe" transparency is good and important, but it would be very easy for people to think it actually matters in a way that it doesn't. It's completely non-binding.
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1280 2014-06-19 17:06:05 <hearn> i'm not convinced most pools even have policy, per se, except maybe for block size limit (impacts orphan rate impacts revenue)
1281 2014-06-19 17:06:26 <hearn> most pool guys i've talked to just say "well we just upgrade if there's some need otherwise we leave stuff alone"
1282 2014-06-19 17:06:55 <hearn> i guess that's a policy :)
1283 2014-06-19 17:07:09 <hearn> the don't fix what ain't broken policy
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1287 2014-06-19 17:08:31 <dsnrk> sure, that's a policy
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1289 2014-06-19 17:09:12 <Graet> we upgrade to latest asap and increase block size to 750, got caught by that 1 time, but apart from that no issues
1290 2014-06-19 17:09:15 <hearn> dizko: what fees are the killed transactions attaching?
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1294 2014-06-19 17:11:23 <maaku> Graet: you and Luke-Jr are the exceptions
1295 2014-06-19 17:11:44 <maaku> as indicated by the fact that you are even on this channel :)
1296 2014-06-19 17:11:54 <Graet> :)
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1299 2014-06-19 17:13:40 * hearn loves Graet and Luke-Jr :)
1300 2014-06-19 17:14:05 <Graet> yay!
1301 2014-06-19 17:14:05 <Graet> lol
1302 2014-06-19 17:14:14 sabbie is now known as Sabbie
1303 2014-06-19 17:16:45 <hearn> dizko: i'm asking because it may not be replace-by-fee exactly, just something that looks like it. and if so there is a simple change you can make to fix it
1304 2014-06-19 17:17:11 <lechuga_> any1 pretty familiar with the mempool tx resurrection code in the DisconnectTip code path?
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1310 2014-06-19 17:21:18 <lechuga_> i guess, specifically, in ConnectTip, is the only way we can get a conflict with a memory pool tx if a tx in the block was never relayed? (from our perspective)
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1316 2014-06-19 17:24:27 <dizko> hearn: hi sorry, they paid 0.0001 on the original, 0.0002 on the double spend
1317 2014-06-19 17:25:24 <hearn> can you show me an example tx?
1318 2014-06-19 17:26:24 <dizko> here's all the ones they got away with today: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=2W4xfi19
1319 2014-06-19 17:26:51 <dizko> i recently had the problem because of the fee differential, some accepting 0.0001 and some 0.00001 so i added code to walk down the unspent outputs and make sure their fees were conservative
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1330 2014-06-19 17:38:53 <dizko> er s/unspent/unconfirmed/
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1334 2014-06-19 17:39:27 <dsnrk> my node never even saw those
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1337 2014-06-19 17:40:25 <dizko> i have a star cluster of open relays on every continent, ive got as many connections to the network as bc.i
1338 2014-06-19 17:40:32 <dizko> would be surprised if this was just a network based attack
1339 2014-06-19 17:41:18 <maaku> hearn: I think you're right, of course
1340 2014-06-19 17:41:20 btiefert has joined
1341 2014-06-19 17:41:40 <maaku> i had a wrong intuition about how getheaders works
1342 2014-06-19 17:41:45 <hearn> dizko: ah ok, so you already got the fee drop handled - are you checking for new dust outputs too? as in >= 546 satoshis and <= 5460 satoshis?
1343 2014-06-19 17:41:57 * hearn wishes he could find dgenr8s double spend radar page
1344 2014-06-19 17:42:04 <dizko> hearn: yes i also started enforcing rules on output size
1345 2014-06-19 17:42:06 <maaku> btw, did you see i greatly expanded my comment via an edit on github? (not sure if you're interacting by github or email)
1346 2014-06-19 17:42:48 <hearn> dizko: and you're still getting double spent. damn. that sucks. would be a pretty big deal if ghash has gone replace-by-fee. given that it's only meant to be "better" as a double-spend preventor in combination with child pays for parent and a lot of new behaviour in wallets that doesn't exist yet
1347 2014-06-19 17:42:53 <dizko> hearn: all these ones today in that pastebin, they used a single input and a single output, fairly large, and used 0.0001 fee on the original
1348 2014-06-19 17:42:59 <hearn> hmm
1349 2014-06-19 17:43:18 <hearn> yes for some reason no block explorers seem to know about these transactions. with replace by fee i'd expect them to know about it.
1350 2014-06-19 17:43:22 <hearn> odd. there must be something else going on here.
1351 2014-06-19 17:43:28 <dizko> hrm? bc.i lists them
1352 2014-06-19 17:43:28 <maaku> i can think of some rather uncontroversial hard-fork modifications to the txout structure, but since it requires updating basically all infrastructure it remains to be seen if it is worth it...
1353 2014-06-19 17:43:39 <dizko> like, aybe one isnt listed but the bulk are on bc.i
1354 2014-06-19 17:43:49 <maaku> merklized scripts probably are, but that could just as easily be done as a soft-fork script template
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1356 2014-06-19 17:44:11 <hearn> ah ok
1357 2014-06-19 17:44:29 <hearn> dizko: you run satoshibones? yes there has been a lot of double spending against that site. dgenr8 noticed this too.
1358 2014-06-19 17:44:40 <dizko> yea i got my ass kicked recently
1359 2014-06-19 17:44:52 <dizko> the fee stuff, i coulda foreseen that
1360 2014-06-19 17:45:21 <hearn> well, fee's are just a mess right now. that's partly my fault too. sorry about that.
1361 2014-06-19 17:45:30 <hearn> this tx seems to be double spent but the double spend also has the same fee?
1362 2014-06-19 17:45:30 <hearn> https://blockchain.info/tx/c4f8ce4f7d323579d01c7aede7808081c7eab5a436a06a77c78180d3d5684d6c
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1366 2014-06-19 17:47:05 <hearn> that one was mined by eclipse, it seems
1367 2014-06-19 17:47:11 <hearn> i am thinking there's something else going on here
1368 2014-06-19 17:47:40 <dizko> very possible
1369 2014-06-19 17:47:52 <dizko> ok yea that one is an exception i guess
1370 2014-06-19 17:47:54 <hearn> so, you definitely need to talk to dgenr8
1371 2014-06-19 17:47:58 <hearn> he is passionate about this stuff
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1373 2014-06-19 17:48:12 <dizko> its possible the person just thought that was why it was working. or maybe they're a fucking genius and are punking me ;)
1374 2014-06-19 17:48:13 <hearn> he's made a patch to bitcoin core that tracks and relays double spend proofs. and has a nice page that lists them all
1375 2014-06-19 17:48:20 <hearn> dizko: or maybe there's >1 attacker?
1376 2014-06-19 17:48:31 <dizko> entirely likely
1377 2014-06-19 17:48:48 <dizko> though this all happened in a few hour period
1378 2014-06-19 17:48:51 <dizko> while i was at the bitcoin meetup
1379 2014-06-19 17:48:56 <dizko> perhaps they know who i am ;)
1380 2014-06-19 17:49:12 <dsnrk> dizko: who where the blocks mined by?
1381 2014-06-19 17:49:13 <hearn> another one was mined by AntPool
1382 2014-06-19 17:49:38 <hearn> i don't think this is a ghash.io thing and i am deeply skeptical all these pools silently adopted replace by fee with nobody noticing. especially as, like i said, the theory behind its operation requires more code
1383 2014-06-19 17:49:44 <dizko> dsnrk: looks like at least ghash, eligius, and discus fish
1384 2014-06-19 17:49:56 <hearn> dizko: the two i checked were EMC + AntPool
1385 2014-06-19 17:50:03 <hearn> so. this is looking more and more like a race
1386 2014-06-19 17:50:16 <dizko> yea, agree that it is looking improbably to be replace by fee
1387 2014-06-19 17:50:26 <dizko> maybe the double fee he's attaching to the double spend is a red herring
1388 2014-06-19 17:50:32 <hearn> the "classical" double spending ..... submit a tx to miners whilst simultaneously submitting a different TX to you. is the IP Address of your bitcoin node known?
1389 2014-06-19 17:50:36 <AdrianG> wait wat
1390 2014-06-19 17:50:38 <dsnrk> dizko: there was a user boasting about being able to use eligius to double spend against dice sites, but that doesn't seem to be what's going on there in that case.
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1392 2014-06-19 17:51:01 <AdrianG> there are double spends?
1393 2014-06-19 17:51:11 <dizko> hearn: i have open relays on most continents in a star configuration
1394 2014-06-19 17:51:28 <hearn> right but could I find out their IP addresses and connect to them? quite possibly
1395 2014-06-19 17:51:38 <hearn> have you considered disabling listening on your nodes?
1396 2014-06-19 17:51:39 <dizko> hearn: plus the fact that nearly all of them are listed on bci...
1397 2014-06-19 17:52:05 <dsnrk> dizko: ugh, why aren't you blocking their conenctions?
1398 2014-06-19 17:52:15 <dsnrk> seriously the first thing anybody should do on a new node.
1399 2014-06-19 17:52:25 <dizko> ill consider anything, cause i have to shut the thing down if i cant find a solution. im working on off-chain game but its hard to do when constantly firefighting
1400 2014-06-19 17:52:52 <dizko> dsnrk: i may have a huge misconception then, i thought having my relays be open would make me better connected
1401 2014-06-19 17:52:55 <hearn> double spending is of course a phenomenally tricky problem that mankind has wrestled with for thousands of years <dramatic music> .. but in your position i'd start by making some simple changes. (1) don't allow inbound connections to your nodes, and restart them from time to time to rotate the peers it's using. (2) don't reuse addresses. BIP70 lets you show messages in wallet UIs that support it, so you can tell people if they lost a
1402 2014-06-19 17:52:55 <hearn> bet or not without even making any micropayments. so it saves you money too
1403 2014-06-19 17:53:03 <dizko> so i should do the opposite, accept no connections and just have a shitload of addnodes?
1404 2014-06-19 17:53:24 <dsnrk> dizko: don't listen, addnode will still max out at 8.
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1406 2014-06-19 17:53:41 <hearn> dizko: yes definitely drop your connections and connect to a random, changing set of nodes. otherwise the attacker can *trivially* race you, by feeding your nodes the bet at the same moment they feed the double spend to the rest of the network
1407 2014-06-19 17:54:09 <dizko> hearn: i also can delay the results
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1409 2014-06-19 17:54:13 <phantomcircuit> sipa, do all of the transactions created by the wallet code go through CreateTransaction? (except of course raw transactions stuff)
1410 2014-06-19 17:54:37 <hearn> transactions fully traverse the network within a second or two, according to addy yeow. so it would not require a large delay, i think, *assuming* that we have correctly identified the problem
1411 2014-06-19 17:54:49 <dizko> hearn: the fact that bci shows 99% of these, doesnt that suggest that it wasnt because i was isolated? not saying youre wrong i just dont want to waste too mcuh time going done the wrong path
1412 2014-06-19 17:54:49 <hearn> so what i suggest is try that, and see what happens
1413 2014-06-19 17:55:00 <phantomcircuit> hearn, that is literally impossible
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1415 2014-06-19 17:55:07 <phantomcircuit> maybe he means like 75% of the network
1416 2014-06-19 17:55:25 nshlike has joined
1417 2014-06-19 17:55:27 <phantomcircuit> or maybe he means 99% of the nodes which you can connect directly to
1418 2014-06-19 17:55:33 <phantomcircuit> but certainly not the entire network
1419 2014-06-19 17:55:45 <dsnrk> tor nodes surely would be a lot more latent
1420 2014-06-19 17:55:46 <hearn> phantomcircuit: ok yes. 75th percentile
1421 2014-06-19 17:56:05 <hearn> dizko: your node will only accept the first one it sees. blockchain.info has special code in it to let it see the double spends.
1422 2014-06-19 17:56:08 <phantomcircuit> hearn, the approximate upper bounds is ~30 seconds
1423 2014-06-19 17:56:20 <dsnrk> hearn: hahahaha. that patch man. hilarious.
1424 2014-06-19 17:56:25 <hearn> dizko: unless you try running with dgenr8s patch of course. then your node would see both, log them and generate a new double-spend-proof message
1425 2014-06-19 17:57:05 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, do you happen to know if all the ways to create a transaction go through CWallet::CreateTransaction? (except raw txs)
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1427 2014-06-19 17:57:26 <hearn> dizko: so you don't have to be isolated. that's the key to understand. all that is needed is someone connects directly to you. then they can always make you see something first.
1428 2014-06-19 17:57:33 <hearn> dizko: is my explanation clear?
1429 2014-06-19 17:57:53 <dizko> hearn: yes that's really helpful, im not sure why that wasnt obvious to me before =(
1430 2014-06-19 17:58:11 <hearn> because bitcoin is complicated! :) try that, and please let us know how it goes
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1432 2014-06-19 17:58:23 <dizko> thank you guys for your help. i know running this kind of stuff makes me a bit of a pariah
1433 2014-06-19 17:58:34 <dizko> though id like to think of myself as more the canary in the coal mine
1434 2014-06-19 17:58:48 <hearn> i'm not personally a fan of addictive gambling games, but research into double spending and how to reduce it is always useful and relevant.
1435 2014-06-19 17:59:12 ubuntuDoubts has joined
1436 2014-06-19 17:59:17 <ubuntuDoubts> Hi all
1437 2014-06-19 17:59:43 <dizko> im not either. i was very nearly an early adopter but didnt....wanted to make some kind of service back in '11 but didnt.
1438 2014-06-19 17:59:54 <ubuntuDoubts> does anyone knows after compiling where i can look for the log files?(ubuntu)
1439 2014-06-19 17:59:55 <dizko> friend of mine wrote the original code for this, and asked me if i was interested in working on a bitcoin project
1440 2014-06-19 17:59:57 <sipa> hearn: sorry, in offsite in iceland now; i'll read it later
1441 2014-06-19 18:00:03 <dizko> i didnt really think it through
1442 2014-06-19 18:00:05 <hearn> sipa: no worries, enjoy! sounds awesome!
1443 2014-06-19 18:01:06 haskoiner has joined
1444 2014-06-19 18:01:09 <ubuntuDoubts> does anyone knows after compiling where i can look for the log files?(ubuntu)
1445 2014-06-19 18:01:15 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i believe yes (wallet using createtransaction)
1446 2014-06-19 18:01:30 <sipa> hearn: kinda rainy :)
1447 2014-06-19 18:01:31 jMyles has joined
1448 2014-06-19 18:01:51 <ubuntuDoubts> sipa?
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1467 2014-06-19 18:18:26 <phantomcircuit> sipa, CScript scriptPubKey
1468 2014-06-19 18:18:31 <phantomcircuit> is that just the pubkeyhash?
1469 2014-06-19 18:18:41 <phantomcircuit> or is that the entire script
1470 2014-06-19 18:20:10 weilu has joined
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1472 2014-06-19 18:20:16 <hearn> that's a script
1473 2014-06-19 18:20:17 <phantomcircuit> boost::apply_visitor(CScriptVisitor(this), dest);
1474 2014-06-19 18:20:17 <phantomcircuit> wat
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1481 2014-06-19 18:21:25 daybyter has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
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1488 2014-06-19 18:22:37 <dizko> well, there's half a dozen fewer open relays on the network now =(
1489 2014-06-19 18:23:14 akstunt600 has joined
1490 2014-06-19 18:23:43 <hearn> we'll survive
1491 2014-06-19 18:24:05 <hearn> make sure the nodes you connect to aren't predictable and change every so often (as b.i will reveal them at some point)
1492 2014-06-19 18:24:06 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1494 2014-06-19 18:24:56 <dizko> i already have scripts to monitor the state of them, ill make it start restarting them gratuitously
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1497 2014-06-19 18:26:18 Lexa has joined
1498 2014-06-19 18:28:34 <sipa> phantomcircuit: the ebtire output scriot
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1515 2014-06-19 18:35:01 <cfields> sipa: any reason not to merge the secp256k1 #28 ?
1516 2014-06-19 18:36:17 <sipa> cfields: yes, no access to my pgp key here in iceland :)
1517 2014-06-19 18:36:35 <cfields> sipa: ah, hehe.
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1532 2014-06-19 18:37:45 <cfields> sipa: i just don't want the secp-integration branch holding on me. Would you prefer that I pull in that commit and rebase? or wait until it's merged?
1533 2014-06-19 18:38:03 coeus has joined
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1538 2014-06-19 18:38:47 <sipa> cfields: i'll comment some more after tomorrow
1539 2014-06-19 18:38:51 neotap has joined
1540 2014-06-19 18:38:52 <sipa> no hurry
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1542 2014-06-19 18:39:21 <cfields> sipa: ok, just be sure to let me know if i'm the hold-up on it
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1544 2014-06-19 18:39:53 <sipa> i din't think anyone is hurried to merge it
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1554 2014-06-19 18:45:47 <ubuntuDoubts> chainparams.cpp:67: CMainParams::CMainParams(): Assertion `hashGenesisBlock == uint256("0x")' failed. [19:27] <ubuntuDoubts> Aborted (core dumped)
1555 2014-06-19 18:45:52 <ubuntuDoubts> where can i see the dumped core ?
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1560 2014-06-19 18:46:46 SirDefaced has joined
1561 2014-06-19 18:47:18 <SirDefaced> does anyone in here use gitian to compile? If so, how come when I compile with gitian it pulls the right code but the build has the wrong build info
1562 2014-06-19 18:47:34 <cfields> ubuntuDoubts: run it under gdb, or google 'ulimit'
1563 2014-06-19 18:47:49 <ubuntuDoubts> gdb?
1564 2014-06-19 18:47:59 <cfields> or google gdb :)
1565 2014-06-19 18:48:10 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1566 2014-06-19 18:49:01 <SirDefaced> like im trying to build 0.9.2 but the build keeps saying 0.9.1 after its done, but the source given is correct
1567 2014-06-19 18:49:52 <cfields> SirDefaced: the built version is based on the -c=bitcoin you give it
1568 2014-06-19 18:50:06 <cfields> err, -c bitcoin=
1569 2014-06-19 18:51:03 <SirDefaced> ahhh ok so i can specify the latest commit and bingo it builds that one
1570 2014-06-19 18:51:12 <SirDefaced> let me try that
1571 2014-06-19 18:51:38 * Luke-Jr wonders why 0.9.2 had regressions backported (optional IPv6 no longer optional)
1572 2014-06-19 18:51:55 <cfields> SirDefaced: also, you probably want to be building 0.9.2.1 now
1573 2014-06-19 18:52:06 <SirDefaced> k thank you
1574 2014-06-19 18:52:25 <SirDefaced> i was using bitcoin=master
1575 2014-06-19 18:52:32 <SirDefaced> or HEAD rather
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1590 2014-06-19 19:10:41 <Luke-Jr> is there a post about 0.9.2.1?
1591 2014-06-19 19:12:56 <gmaxwell> 01:23 < wumpus> 0.9.2.1 is a re-release of 0.9.2 which fixes two issues, one macox-only UI with displaying addresses and another that an fixes exception at shutdown in some cases (on all platforms)
1592 2014-06-19 19:13:17 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1594 2014-06-19 19:14:50 <Luke-Jr> meh, might as well have been 0.9.3 :P
1595 2014-06-19 19:14:57 <Luke-Jr> a tag would be nice.
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1603 2014-06-19 19:19:49 <flound1129> is there a signal that will cause bitcoind to reload its config?
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1607 2014-06-19 19:22:46 <tm2> many programs use SIGHUP to reload the config. Dunno about bitcoind.
1608 2014-06-19 19:23:12 <tigereye> flound1129, what is your intended use case? (i.e. what are you changing in the config that you want bitcoind to detect?)
1609 2014-06-19 19:26:49 <sipa> bitcoind does not support it
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1611 2014-06-19 19:33:22 <AdrianG> what are the most pressing bitcoin development issues?
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1615 2014-06-19 19:36:01 <Luke-Jr> AdrianG: depends on scope. right now it seems GBT would be, but that's outside bitcoind for the most part
1616 2014-06-19 19:36:42 Fusselwurm has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1617 2014-06-19 19:36:43 <Luke-Jr> within bitcoind, maybe blockchain obfuscation?
1618 2014-06-19 19:37:34 <cfields> Luke-Jr: it's tagged, but a regular 'git fetch' doesn't pull it in for some reason
1619 2014-06-19 19:37:45 <Luke-Jr> cfields: ah, it's not in a branch
1620 2014-06-19 19:38:31 Zot has left ()
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1622 2014-06-19 19:39:05 <AdrianG> Luke-Jr: decentralized mining?
1623 2014-06-19 19:39:06 Aquila has joined
1624 2014-06-19 19:39:10 <Luke-Jr> AdrianG: right
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1627 2014-06-19 19:39:43 <AdrianG> Luke-Jr: someone posted on a blog somewhere that you posted/said "bitcoin is just an experiment"
1628 2014-06-19 19:39:54 Aquilano has joined
1629 2014-06-19 19:39:58 <AdrianG> you really are bailing out?
1630 2014-06-19 19:41:07 <Luke-Jr> AdrianG: bailing out? bitcoin has *always* been just an experiment
1631 2014-06-19 19:41:08 <cfields> erm, how do those dots connect?
1632 2014-06-19 19:41:34 <AdrianG> Luke-Jr: it just sounded that way
1633 2014-06-19 19:41:52 <Luke-Jr> AdrianG: despite the earnest efforts of people to promote it as a real-world currency, the technology bitcoin relies on is very immature and nowhere near production-ready
1634 2014-06-19 19:42:02 Aquilano has quit (Client Quit)
1635 2014-06-19 19:42:02 <AdrianG> yeah i know.
1636 2014-06-19 19:42:20 <AdrianG> which is bad. we'll end up with a serious confidence loss/damage at some point.
1637 2014-06-19 19:42:24 Aquilano has joined
1638 2014-06-19 19:43:08 <helo> trial by fire is really the only way though
1639 2014-06-19 19:43:13 <jcorgan> that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger
1640 2014-06-19 19:43:18 <jcorgan> what helo said
1641 2014-06-19 19:43:28 <AdrianG> ok jcorgan. I'll just chop off your left foot.
1642 2014-06-19 19:43:31 <AdrianG> won't kill you.
1643 2014-06-19 19:44:12 mmatthew_43 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1644 2014-06-19 19:44:46 <jcorgan> Capt. Literal much?
1645 2014-06-19 19:45:04 <helo> for one, you never know if you've created a reliable system until it never fails.
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1647 2014-06-19 19:45:28 <justanotheruser> helo: perfect, so we will know if bitcoin was a success in the heat death of the universe!
1648 2014-06-19 19:45:38 rodarmor has quit (Quit: rodarmor)
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1650 2014-06-19 19:46:01 <cfields> sipa: any interested in making libsecp256k1 stateless so that it doesn't require a global init? by passing an opaque reference around?
1651 2014-06-19 19:50:25 Aquilano has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1652 2014-06-19 19:51:00 <Luke-Jr> cfields: ew? :p
1653 2014-06-19 19:51:17 <Luke-Jr> __attribute__((constructor)) ftw? :P
1654 2014-06-19 19:51:30 Aquilano has joined
1655 2014-06-19 19:53:15 sahlhoff has quit (Quit: sahlhoff)
1656 2014-06-19 19:55:33 <cfields> ew?
1657 2014-06-19 20:01:24 mus1cb0x has joined
1658 2014-06-19 20:01:28 <mus1cb0x> http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/06/prweb11956245.htm thoughts?
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1663 2014-06-19 20:04:45 <sadsdasda> hi. does anyone know how many lines of code bitcoin-qt have? roughly?
1664 2014-06-19 20:05:26 <flound1129> lots
1665 2014-06-19 20:05:28 <maaku> sadsdasda: pretty sure github tracks those stats
1666 2014-06-19 20:06:03 <sadsdasda> i checked github but there is too much files : D
1667 2014-06-19 20:06:21 <sadsdasda> im just asking does anyone know the answer already
1668 2014-06-19 20:06:34 <flound1129> too many
1669 2014-06-19 20:06:38 <flound1129> too many lines
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1671 2014-06-19 20:08:11 <gwillen> flound1129: check out the source from github, get yourself a copy of cloc (http://cloc.sourceforge.net/ ), run cloc on it.
1672 2014-06-19 20:08:19 <gwillen> er, sorry
1673 2014-06-19 20:08:23 <gwillen> sadsdasda: check out the source from github, get yourself a copy of cloc (http://cloc.sourceforge.net/ ), run cloc on it.
1674 2014-06-19 20:08:47 <gwillen> that will give you 'lines' by the conventional measure for software (i.e. excluding blank lines and comments.)
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1679 2014-06-19 20:12:18 <sadsdasda> hmm i found this : http://www.gubatron.com/blog/2014/04/30/how-many-lines-of-code-are-there-inside-bitcoin-core-client/
1680 2014-06-19 20:12:38 <sadsdasda> so there are 281800 lines
1681 2014-06-19 20:12:39 <sadsdasda> cool
1682 2014-06-19 20:12:40 <sadsdasda> : D
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1702 2014-06-19 20:36:22 <phantomcircuit> sipa, https://github.com/pstratem/bitcoin/compare/poweroftwooutputs
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1707 2014-06-19 20:38:54 <petertodd> dizko: FWIW when I did my "incentivize replace-by-fee" experiment last week all tx1's were 0.0005BTC/KB and I only got three double-spends out of something like a few hundred
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1713 2014-06-19 20:40:57 <mr_burdell> petertodd: was this you? https://blockchain.info/tx/ea68e48130e5ba18524303646e3120047af1f27646adb66507b2aa0cdf88ccd9
1714 2014-06-19 20:41:27 <mr_burdell> it's interesting how blockchain.info deletes doublespend transactions after about 4-5 days
1715 2014-06-19 20:41:36 <mr_burdell> most of those had "spent,spent" on them
1716 2014-06-19 20:42:10 <dizko> petertodd: oh really? so a few miners are using it?
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1723 2014-06-19 20:45:37 <mr_burdell> https://imgur.com/hzpNS7v,3L9VCvs#1
1724 2014-06-19 20:45:44 <mr_burdell> nevermind... they didn't do all of them
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1726 2014-06-19 20:45:49 <mr_burdell> I think that was a real attack
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1729 2014-06-19 20:46:45 <mr_burdell> the first image shows the doublespends, the second one is a couple days later when blockchain.info deleted them
1730 2014-06-19 20:47:41 <mr_burdell> or... it was peter and blockchain.info only picked up some of them
1731 2014-06-19 20:48:09 <petertodd> mr_burdell: nope
1732 2014-06-19 20:48:37 <mr_burdell> ah, ok... that confirms there are ppl using that method to attack dice sites or something
1733 2014-06-19 20:48:52 <petertodd> dizko: no, two of those double-spends I'm pretty sure were just due to bad propagation - even waiting two minutes sometimes txs don't fully propagate, one of the double-spends I'm not sure
1734 2014-06-19 20:49:08 <mr_burdell> http://mempool.info/noblock
1735 2014-06-19 20:49:13 <mr_burdell> i've been tracking doublespends
1736 2014-06-19 20:49:18 <mr_burdell> on that page
1737 2014-06-19 20:50:02 <petertodd> dizko: also, another thing to consider is that a network-level attacker might not be attacking you, they might be attacking the mining pools. Your transactions are easy to identify, so by sybil attacking a mining pool and delaying bets at that end they can still double-spend.
1738 2014-06-19 20:51:12 <mr_burdell> oh, maybe this one is you: https://blockchain.info/tx/9779be350c8e4df3b0fb7107221c0e4158a22ca98ed9162b8ab4921a248e1d13
1739 2014-06-19 20:51:30 <petertodd> mr_burdell: no as well - I stopped my test last week
1740 2014-06-19 20:51:35 <mr_burdell> ah, ok
1741 2014-06-19 20:51:37 Krellan_ has joined
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1743 2014-06-19 20:51:41 <petertodd> mr_burdell: also it used two in, two out, transactions
1744 2014-06-19 20:51:46 <mr_burdell> well, there are definitely active ppl
1745 2014-06-19 20:52:15 <mr_burdell> i didn't have replace by fee detection on my server until this past weekend
1746 2014-06-19 20:52:41 <mr_burdell> so I probably didn't get yours
1747 2014-06-19 20:53:27 <dizko> petertodd: looks like he was able to pull this one off on quite a range of mining pools, so maybe less likely. disturbing info nontheless
1748 2014-06-19 20:54:14 prepost has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1749 2014-06-19 20:54:47 <petertodd> mr_burdell: here's an example: https://blockchain.info/tx/2e113ec225bbcf9ff8562a771e8d20db242729f8e1440ce73eb8b6e877d45de0
1750 2014-06-19 20:55:04 <mr_burdell> the attacks I've seen are exploiting either dust, unconfirmed inputs with nonstandard tx, or low fees
1751 2014-06-19 20:55:43 <petertodd> mr_burdell: there's been a few apparently ones lately with none of those issues, not even blacklisted addresses
1752 2014-06-19 20:55:44 ielo has joined
1753 2014-06-19 20:56:20 <dizko> you talking about mine? or this going around
1754 2014-06-19 20:56:25 <mr_burdell> yeah, that's another point... I don't see any pools blacklisting addresses
1755 2014-06-19 20:56:35 <mr_burdell> even eligius is mining some dice/xcp
1756 2014-06-19 20:56:53 <Luke-Jr> mr_burdell: we are?
1757 2014-06-19 20:57:00 <Luke-Jr> mr_burdell: patches welcome to fix any bugs in the spam filters
1758 2014-06-19 20:57:03 <mr_burdell> I think so
1759 2014-06-19 20:57:24 <mr_burdell> i guess I can run my script again...
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1761 2014-06-19 20:57:45 <mr_burdell> another thing I noticed is that ghash was mining at 350k max size blocks until yesterday
1762 2014-06-19 20:57:52 <mr_burdell> and they implemented 750k max size
1763 2014-06-19 20:57:53 <petertodd> dizko: I noticed some double-spends this morning on the bc.i page where both txs had reasonable fees, neither had dust outputs, there was a few minutes between the timestamps, and the pool mining the confirmed one was unknown
1764 2014-06-19 20:58:38 <dizko> ah. did you read all the scrollback with my issue today? i posted a list of txids
1765 2014-06-19 20:58:54 <petertodd> dizko: dizko: I just skimmed it; where was the txid list?
1766 2014-06-19 20:58:58 <mr_burdell> dizko: i didn't see you in the scrollback
1767 2014-06-19 20:59:11 <dizko> i had a star configuration of open relays so that i'd be well connected to the network...but seems that was foolish since it only matters if i see the tx before others do
1768 2014-06-19 20:59:38 <petertodd> dizko: indeed, and like I say, it's probably easier for someone to surround pools instead as their way of double-spending
1769 2014-06-19 20:59:46 <dizko> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=2W4xfi19
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1771 2014-06-19 21:01:00 <dizko> so, in almost all of these the first one had a 0.0001 fee, and the double spend had a 0.0002 fee
1772 2014-06-19 21:01:09 <dizko> which is why my first thought was replace by fee
1773 2014-06-19 21:01:51 <petertodd> dizko: oh, that's interesting, see, because my replace-by-fee code takes fees for children into account, it *wasn't* accepting those replacements
1774 2014-06-19 21:02:02 <dizko> i dunno if that was part of why it worked, or if the attacker just THOUGHT that was necessary, or if they're just really clever and are fucking with me
1775 2014-06-19 21:02:05 <petertodd> e.g. 2014-06-19 09:27:39 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : rejecting replacement 3fffb347e042a607dad3010a3195cb5852cf4ac6a6c84ad04df7cea40b9f7347, pays less fees than conflicting txs; 0.0002 < 0.00021003
1776 2014-06-19 21:02:42 <dizko> ah, because i pay 10% extra, so my fee plus the original is 0.00001 larger than his right
1777 2014-06-19 21:02:47 <petertodd> yup
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1779 2014-06-19 21:03:05 <petertodd> you're doing a passive scorched-earth defense :P
1780 2014-06-19 21:03:15 <mr_burdell> Luke-Jr: https://blockchain.info/tx/6e4fe7bf62dafc6e3ce40ba1fecd37bbba507da98d69db2b3fd32ae7dea65c8c
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1785 2014-06-19 21:04:16 <dizko> hehe....embarassingly...i started paying extra because for awhile i had a float()<->Decimal() bug where sometimes i ended up with a dust-sized shortfall in my fee
1786 2014-06-19 21:04:30 <dizko> and once i fixed it i just kept it, figured maybe people'd hate me less if i paid extra
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1788 2014-06-19 21:04:39 <petertodd> dizko: heh, my python code tends to be full of those :)
1789 2014-06-19 21:04:56 <petertodd> dizko: I never bother fixing them and just take on 10% too
1790 2014-06-19 21:05:25 spinza has joined
1791 2014-06-19 21:05:39 <dizko> i added litecoin and dogecoin support a couple mo back....ltc went smooth almost no code changes. then doge
1792 2014-06-19 21:05:44 <lechuga_> open question: why doesn't DisconnectTip resurrect txs to the mempool in reverse order like DisconnectBlock does to undo txs
1793 2014-06-19 21:05:52 <dizko> found out that the decimal precision isnt just the part after the decimal place ;)
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1795 2014-06-19 21:06:17 Sabbie is now known as sabbie
1796 2014-06-19 21:06:29 <lechuga_> and thena follow-up: why would AcceptToMemory pool fail in that scenario
1797 2014-06-19 21:07:11 <mr_burdell> dizko: do you run the satoshibones?
1798 2014-06-19 21:07:24 <dizko> yep
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1801 2014-06-19 21:07:41 <petertodd> dizko: right, you were one of the people who contacted me the other week?
1802 2014-06-19 21:08:02 <mr_burdell> Luke-Jr: and here's a dice: https://blockchain.info/tx/8deb882c7f1894286d7de3adfa6ed58c930eb2e7d58e9c4cc841058d8c686d57
1803 2014-06-19 21:08:06 <dizko> petertodd: ah yea sorry if you didnt put that together, yea that was me. thanks for your input on that, definitely gonna get your fork up and running
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1805 2014-06-19 21:08:27 <furt> hey folks - if daemon does not respond to stop or getinfo - saying cant connect to server - whats the safest way to restart it?
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1807 2014-06-19 21:08:57 <mr_burdell> dizko: I saw someone successfully steal about 100BTC a few weeks ago... although mostly from betcoin, not bones
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1809 2014-06-19 21:09:18 <furt> mr_burdell: double spending?
1810 2014-06-19 21:09:31 <Luke-Jr> mr_burdell: hrm, will look into it
1811 2014-06-19 21:09:38 <petertodd> dizko: glad to help. gambling sites are an interesting special case, where you should be able to make this double-spending unprofitable with scorched earth with not many miners adopting it... however it does look like someone might by sybil attacking miners, rather than you - scorched earth can be vulnerable to that too
1812 2014-06-19 21:09:43 <dizko> Luke-Jr: im at least rotating my addresses now routinely. pretty please with sugar on top :)
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1814 2014-06-19 21:09:54 <mr_burdell> yeah, the dice sites were responding to low priority transactions immediately
1815 2014-06-19 21:09:55 <Luke-Jr> dizko: hm?
1816 2014-06-19 21:10:24 <dizko> ah, people keep telling me that eligius filters addresses, but you do mine the ones from my site
1817 2014-06-19 21:10:27 <Luke-Jr> oh, you're one of those DDoS/spammers..
1818 2014-06-19 21:10:27 <mr_burdell> dizko: based on luke's spam detection, it shouldn't matter especially if you keep 1bones in the front
1819 2014-06-19 21:10:35 <Luke-Jr> dizko: bug, will fix ASAP
1820 2014-06-19 21:10:54 <mr_burdell> since that's what it's based on
1821 2014-06-19 21:10:59 <petertodd> dizko: heh, you shouldn't have asked :)
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1823 2014-06-19 21:11:06 <furt> hehe
1824 2014-06-19 21:11:07 <Luke-Jr> dizko: if you want to be removed from the spam filter, stop attacking the netwrok
1825 2014-06-19 21:11:19 vfor has joined
1826 2014-06-19 21:11:24 <dizko> Luke-Jr: why do you consider it an attack?
1827 2014-06-19 21:11:27 <vfor> hi guys
1828 2014-06-19 21:11:32 <furt> hi
1829 2014-06-19 21:11:40 <Luke-Jr> dizko: because it is flooding the network with information, rather than using bitcoin properly
1830 2014-06-19 21:11:47 jedunnigan has joined
1831 2014-06-19 21:11:56 <Luke-Jr> dizko: suggest moving discussion to #eligius, as it's not really on-topic
1832 2014-06-19 21:12:10 <furt> Luke-Jr: anyway to restart stuck daemon safely?
1833 2014-06-19 21:12:15 <furt> or just kill?
1834 2014-06-19 21:12:26 <dizko> Luke-Jr: so, once all the mining pools are replaced by the ones run by private equity and goldman...
1835 2014-06-19 21:12:39 <dizko> and we start seeing stuff like wikileaks getting filtered
1836 2014-06-19 21:12:41 <Luke-Jr> furt: bitcoind? how'd it get stuck?
1837 2014-06-19 21:12:52 <furt> dont know :)
1838 2014-06-19 21:12:58 <furt> it wont react to stop
1839 2014-06-19 21:13:05 <mr_burdell> furt: tail -f debug.log?
1840 2014-06-19 21:13:08 <furt> or getinfo
1841 2014-06-19 21:13:17 <furt> one moment I check
1842 2014-06-19 21:13:17 <petertodd> dizko: remember the idea is to use bitcoin in such a way that your transactions aren't distinguishable - wikileaks can't be filtered if no-one knows what their txs are
1843 2014-06-19 21:13:21 <Luke-Jr> furt: a normal kill might work. I kill -9 once in a while without problems.
1844 2014-06-19 21:13:41 <petertodd> dizko: for instance, you accepted bets via stealth addresses filtering them wouldn't be possible
1845 2014-06-19 21:13:48 <furt> Luke-Jr: could it be that running daemon in screen by mistake does it?
1846 2014-06-19 21:13:59 <Luke-Jr> furt: not likely
1847 2014-06-19 21:14:07 <dizko> petertodd: shouldnt that be up to the user? why would miners need to take an activist stance on how people use bitcoin?
1848 2014-06-19 21:14:24 <dizko> furthermore, shouldnt you be doing the same thing to blockchain.info
1849 2014-06-19 21:14:26 <Luke-Jr> dizko: it's a miner's *job* to filter spam.
1850 2014-06-19 21:14:34 <Luke-Jr> dizko: miners who don't are neglecting their job
1851 2014-06-19 21:14:35 <dizko> since it encourages address reuse far more than i do
1852 2014-06-19 21:14:57 <petertodd> dizko: I'm just being pragmatic here - regardless of whether or not you agree with Luke on this, making your transactions indistinguishable from others makes it infeasible for him to filter you out
1853 2014-06-19 21:15:04 <dizko> Luke-Jr: spam implies something malicious, like dust, or olympics adverts or something
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1855 2014-06-19 21:15:09 <Luke-Jr> dizko: misuse (address reuse) is not as bad as attacking (floods), although I do discourage people using bc.i
1856 2014-06-19 21:15:19 <dizko> Luke-Jr>: it seems to me more like youre taking a moralistic position on which transactions are legitimate
1857 2014-06-19 21:15:26 <Luke-Jr> dizko: your stuff is malicious in nature
1858 2014-06-19 21:15:48 <dizko> Luke-Jr: in what way?
1859 2014-06-19 21:15:49 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: to be completely indistinguishable, he'd have to stop spamming ;)
1860 2014-06-19 21:16:07 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, the way i decomposed to powers of two here is horrible
1861 2014-06-19 21:16:09 <phantomcircuit> https://github.com/pstratem/bitcoin/compare/poweroftwooutputs?expand=1
1862 2014-06-19 21:16:12 <Luke-Jr> dizko: it abuses the blockchain to convey information
1863 2014-06-19 21:16:15 <phantomcircuit> how 2 do better
1864 2014-06-19 21:16:18 <Luke-Jr> dizko: and lots of information at that
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1866 2014-06-19 21:17:15 <mr_burdell> well, and you're using unconfirmed transactions as confirmed in some instances and being scammed because of it
1867 2014-06-19 21:17:22 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: what are you trying to do? O.o
1868 2014-06-19 21:17:30 <mr_burdell> if you moved off blockchain, that wouldn't be an issue anymore
1869 2014-06-19 21:17:33 <Luke-Jr> mr_burdell: well, that's his own problem LOL
1870 2014-06-19 21:17:43 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, make all the txo values powers of 2
1871 2014-06-19 21:17:51 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: why?
1872 2014-06-19 21:17:54 <phantomcircuit> (im currently missing the change values)
1873 2014-06-19 21:18:09 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, coin join + stealth addrs + powers of 2 == anonymous bitcoin
1874 2014-06-19 21:18:13 <dizko> Luke-Jr: so what if i just start sending transactions around to unique addresses....you cant stop that....it wouldnt cost me all that much money to send 10x the traffice my service uses
1875 2014-06-19 21:18:35 <phantomcircuit> nom
1876 2014-06-19 21:18:44 <dizko> i mean, im paying 11x the new default fee
1877 2014-06-19 21:18:50 <Luke-Jr> dizko: if you escalate, then we just need better spam filters
1878 2014-06-19 21:18:56 <Hasimir> Luke-Jr, how long before dizko's peers marked him as a bad/abusive peer?
1879 2014-06-19 21:18:58 <Luke-Jr> dizko: there is no "new default fee"
1880 2014-06-19 21:19:10 <dizko> could you be a little more pedantic
1881 2014-06-19 21:19:22 <mr_burdell> new minimum "standard" fee
1882 2014-06-19 21:19:27 <dizko> you know wwhat im saying
1883 2014-06-19 21:19:28 <furt> Luke-Jr: bizzare thing I tailed debug and its running
1884 2014-06-19 21:19:29 <mr_burdell> for relaying
1885 2014-06-19 21:19:32 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1886 2014-06-19 21:19:32 <furt> accepting new blocks
1887 2014-06-19 21:19:34 weilu has joined
1888 2014-06-19 21:19:43 <dizko> information was conveyed, your pedantry was spam
1889 2014-06-19 21:20:02 <furt> dizko do u run dice?
1890 2014-06-19 21:20:08 <Luke-Jr> mr_burdell: relaying is not mining
1891 2014-06-19 21:20:11 <furt> what kind of information do u convey?
1892 2014-06-19 21:20:19 <mr_burdell> Luke-Jr: right, that's the difference
1893 2014-06-19 21:20:33 <dizko> furt: he's insane. my transactions are as legitimate as any on the network
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1898 2014-06-19 21:20:57 <furt> dizko but what kind of transcations?
1899 2014-06-19 21:21:14 <Luke-Jr> furt: dizko is using the blockchain as a way to send "I want to do <x>" messages. So every action on his "game" bloats the blockchain.
1900 2014-06-19 21:21:14 <lechuga_> dice bets
1901 2014-06-19 21:21:20 <dizko> furt: yes i run an on-chain betting game
1902 2014-06-19 21:21:24 <lechuga_> each address represents a different level of risk in the game
1903 2014-06-19 21:21:55 <lechuga_> so instead of having accounts and managing balances
1904 2014-06-19 21:22:00 <lechuga_> the information is in the blockchain
1905 2014-06-19 21:22:02 <vfor> one question⦠i must be blind: i have got ECkey which I generated after importing a WIFormated privKey. now i want to get the raw hex representation⦠how do it do this?
1906 2014-06-19 21:22:33 <furt> dizko maybe u could adapt game so its uses chain less :P
1907 2014-06-19 21:22:46 <dizko> furt: fully planning on making an offchain game
1908 2014-06-19 21:23:02 <furt> hehe neat
1909 2014-06-19 21:23:07 AndersAA has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1910 2014-06-19 21:23:08 <dizko> furt: but i fully intend to continue trunning the on-chain game, even if im forced to require confirmation
1911 2014-06-19 21:23:11 <Luke-Jr> dizko: so come ask me to change the spam filter AFTER you do that (and stop the DDoS one)
1912 2014-06-19 21:23:33 AndersAA has joined
1913 2014-06-19 21:23:42 <lechuga_> he won't need to reuse addresses then :)
1914 2014-06-19 21:23:54 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1915 2014-06-19 21:23:58 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: true, but he might still want vanity addresses
1916 2014-06-19 21:24:05 <furt> Luke-Jr: how come I can see in debug daemon is running but stop does not work?
1917 2014-06-19 21:24:12 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: it's not hard to leave a vanitygen running making addresses constantly :p
1918 2014-06-19 21:24:14 <dizko> Luke-Jr: im not a huge libertarian, but i do think that your belief that you should decide which transactions are good and which are bad (not talking about dust and actual attacks) is ludicrous
1919 2014-06-19 21:24:20 <Luke-Jr> furt: I guess RPC hung
1920 2014-06-19 21:24:22 <lechuga_> lol
1921 2014-06-19 21:24:35 <furt> Luke-Jr: thats a very smart guess :)
1922 2014-06-19 21:24:36 <Luke-Jr> dizko: your attack IS an actual attack
1923 2014-06-19 21:24:56 <dizko> maybe im stupid, but i really fail so see how it hurts anything
1924 2014-06-19 21:24:57 <petertodd> dizko: look, you're not going to win this one, and it's OT here
1925 2014-06-19 21:25:07 <lechuga_> agreed
1926 2014-06-19 21:25:08 <furt> is there any way to restart RPC?
1927 2014-06-19 21:25:09 <dizko> where is it OT, i really do want to hash this out
1928 2014-06-19 21:25:15 <Luke-Jr> dizko: really? when was the last time you started a new Bitcoin Core instance?
1929 2014-06-19 21:25:17 <petertodd> dizko: #eligius
1930 2014-06-19 21:25:42 <dizko> thanks
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1947 2014-06-19 21:39:31 <dionyziz> Hi guys. I was wondering if the NLockTime parameter is honoured by miners, or if it non-standard.
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1950 2014-06-19 21:42:42 <mr_burdell> dionyziz: by default, i don't think it will be relayed if it's too far in the future
1951 2014-06-19 21:43:03 <mr_burdell> but miners can't mine it until after the locktime anyway
1952 2014-06-19 21:43:21 <metacoin> Does it exist in the mempool, though?
1953 2014-06-19 21:43:39 <metacoin> Wait a second
1954 2014-06-19 21:43:48 <metacoin> I thought the requirement was that the output couldn't be spent until after that block
1955 2014-06-19 21:44:06 <metacoin> and that the transaction gets put into the block, therefore the coins are "locked"
1956 2014-06-19 21:44:10 <metacoin> also, hi Mike :D
1957 2014-06-19 21:44:12 <mr_burdell> no, it won't be mined until that block
1958 2014-06-19 21:44:19 <dionyziz> mr_burdell: How far is far?
1959 2014-06-19 21:44:28 <mr_burdell> 1 block based on isstandard
1960 2014-06-19 21:45:29 <mr_burdell> i think this is the relevant code: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L487
1961 2014-06-19 21:45:35 <dionyziz> Thanks for your feedback, this is insightful :)
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1990 2014-06-19 22:21:27 <sipa> cfields: why? it's just precomputed data; there is no point in doing the work multiple times
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1993 2014-06-19 22:22:42 <cfields> sipa: what if a bitcoin lib uses it as well as bitcoin? does it check before re-initing?
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