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56 2014-06-20 01:34:10 <G_Qu> Good evening everyone.
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108 2014-06-20 03:07:54 <amincd> As the blockchain gets bigger, more and more people will opt for a thin client, but some Bitcoin users need bitcoind commands for their automated services. Is the full client the only way to use these commands, or is there an SPV client out, or being developed, with similar functionality?
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111 2014-06-20 03:10:13 <mr_burdell> amincd: sx and electrum can both do most of the functionality
112 2014-06-20 03:10:25 <mr_burdell> not sure if sx does full spv verification
113 2014-06-20 03:11:14 <amincd> mr_burdell: thanks. Does electrum use spv? From what I understand, it's not as decentralized as Multibit
114 2014-06-20 03:11:50 <justanotheruser> amincd: it uses SPV but gets block headers from a set of authorities
115 2014-06-20 03:12:38 <mr_burdell> well, it needs the servers to get UTXO/address balances
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117 2014-06-20 03:12:44 <mr_burdell> without scanning the blockchain like multibit
118 2014-06-20 03:13:08 <mr_burdell> but it does full spv verification of the data
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120 2014-06-20 03:14:21 <amincd> I thought multibit requested that data from full nodes, who then scan the blockchain
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182 2014-06-20 05:29:46 <dabura667> Re: BIP32 vulnerability where M/ + m/m(x) can be joined to create m/... Would someone who held m/m(1)/m(x) be able to collude with someone who held M/ to calculate m/ ? or could they only calculate m/m(1) (by person with M/ calculating M/M(1)/ then colluding) ?
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184 2014-06-20 05:32:24 <jcorgan> not sure i parsed that correctly, but pretty the the answer is the last one
185 2014-06-20 05:32:28 <jcorgan> pretty sure
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331 2014-06-20 09:10:46 <sipa> cfields: you can safely call init twice (though not simultaneously). for now, not going to worry too much about multiple in-process users i think; when it's actually production ready with a stable api that can still be done
332 2014-06-20 09:14:47 <shesek> Does anyone know if bc.i's wallet allows sending to p2sh addresses yet?
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344 2014-06-20 09:41:07 <GAit> I think there's something missing from the bip draft about instant confirmation via BIP70 protobuf ext.
345 2014-06-20 09:44:05 <GAit> there may be instances in which you rather receive an instant confirmation or nothing, i.e. waiting is not an option - how do you prevent people with BIP70 support but without the extention to pay without breaking bip70 completely? I was thinking of using 0 amount but that has already a special meaning
346 2014-06-20 09:44:07 <GAit> "If the sum of outputs.amount is zero, the customer will be asked how much to pay"
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382 2014-06-20 10:34:35 <skinnkavaj> https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/06/19/mining/
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399 2014-06-20 11:29:54 <hearn> wumpus: what exactly do you want to see in such a pull request?
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402 2014-06-20 11:30:45 <wumpus> hearn: so it's either this or full UTXO commitments?
403 2014-06-20 11:31:47 <hearn> there is a spectrum of trust. there's the raw utxo data. there's the raw data that's authenticated retroactively when the spending tx confirms, which is what I explained for the SPV fee estimation algorithm. then there's UTXO commitments, where you are assuming miners don't collaborate against you vs remote nodes.
404 2014-06-20 11:32:04 <hearn> then there's "pick a trusted third party and assume they're honest" which is of course, not decentralised.
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407 2014-06-20 11:32:54 <wumpus> I'm still wrapping my head over why this P2P message would be so especially bad for security, i mean we have calls like 'mempool' that could just as well lie... as you document that the call queries that node's utxo set (not "some global trusted information"), it's not inherently insecure, only if you expect too much from it
408 2014-06-20 11:33:23 <wumpus> you could, for example, use it on an internal network with a node or set of nodes that you trust
409 2014-06-20 11:33:26 <wumpus> that's up to the caller
410 2014-06-20 11:33:48 <hearn> yes, it's indeed the same
411 2014-06-20 11:34:18 <hearn> and actually i pointed both those things out in the original writeup .... also since last week i'm kind of burned out on the assumption that hashpower majority is the gold standard for security
412 2014-06-20 11:34:33 <hearn> it's clearly not. i sort of joked about people demanding authentication by ghash.io, but we're not actually far from that
413 2014-06-20 11:34:49 <wumpus> there is no expectation that nodes can't lie in the information that they provide, sure, in this case there is no cryptographical way to verify it, but there may be other application-specific ways
414 2014-06-20 11:34:56 <hearn> having a mix of IP addresses *and* a good mix of miners would be the best. but we work with what we've got.
415 2014-06-20 11:35:21 <wumpus> right
416 2014-06-20 11:35:22 <hearn> yeah. so the SPV fee algorithm, for example, works just fine with the current getutxo patch and is also authenticated
417 2014-06-20 11:35:41 <hearn> rather, it'd be authenticated if we do tx v3 with value in the signature hash, which beyond requiring a chain fork, is not a very hard change to code up
418 2014-06-20 11:36:13 <wumpus> yup, so it depends on the specific application that you would use the getutxos call for
419 2014-06-20 11:37:36 <hearn> right
420 2014-06-20 11:37:50 <GAit> hearn: if you got a minute I'd like to bounce some ideas re instant ext
421 2014-06-20 11:38:07 <hearn> i guess so. actually let me go get a cup of tea first
422 2014-06-20 11:38:19 <GAit> sure - ta
423 2014-06-20 11:38:23 <wumpus> I think it's really childish that people started with 'this is insecure!!!' outcries immediately, even though the network is not affected at the least, we could merge this without risk to existing clients.. is it our task to be network nannies, avoiding anything that could be used insecurely?
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425 2014-06-20 11:40:07 <wumpus> I can understand that way of thought in the user interface, if you have to interact with (sometimes clueless) users, but on a network protocol... I'm not sure
426 2014-06-20 11:40:35 <hearn> well that seems like a fundamental design principle that could be resolved either way. my inclination is basic safeties like the JSON-RPC excessive fee check are good, but indeed the purpose of an API is not to deny you any feature that might be misused by someone else. computers would look pretty different if that was how they worked ...
427 2014-06-20 11:40:37 <GAit> wumpus: there's too much outcry but there's also space for improvements no? I'm not thinking we should wait for perfection as that's the enemy of good but at least fix the things we know can be improved now rather than later
428 2014-06-20 11:41:47 <wumpus> hearn: well if it is the case we have to start restricting the protocol immediately, make sure people do no dangerous or illegal things :)
429 2014-06-20 11:42:26 <wumpus> but in turn that makes *us* responsible for people's safety and security
430 2014-06-20 11:42:38 <wumpus> kind of wrong in a distributed system
431 2014-06-20 11:43:10 Ostkaka has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
432 2014-06-20 11:43:15 <hearn> indeed. i'm not a big fan of that implication :) i guess it's a rerun of the apple vs android debates. apple won't let you run any program they feel doesn't align with their goals or that might potentially be problematic in any way.
433 2014-06-20 11:43:20 <sipa> i do like the distinction that the p2p protocol should be there to support trustless operation up to the extent possible - anything else is services offered by a node you trust rather than network operation
434 2014-06-20 11:43:28 <GAit> wumpus: it's a trade off between consensus in bitcoin core or a fork
435 2014-06-20 11:43:28 <wumpus> I really don't know how to handle this - I encourage forks of bitcoind for experimentation that add things to the protocol
436 2014-06-20 11:43:38 <hearn> android has signposts pointing in the right direction and tries its best to help be secure, but you can still ultimately install what you want, if you choose to
437 2014-06-20 11:43:59 <wumpus> hearn: but the thing is, apple and android are owned
438 2014-06-20 11:44:10 <sipa> it would be useful if we had documentation about each of the network messages, and in which ways you need to trust the peer or in which ways they can lie
439 2014-06-20 11:44:27 <sipa> as indeed, there is already a large variety of those
440 2014-06-20 11:44:35 <GAit> sipa: indeed very useful
441 2014-06-20 11:44:39 <wumpus> sipa: yes
442 2014-06-20 11:44:54 <hearn> sipa: there are obviously practical benefits to having something provided by the p2p network even if it's not authenticated. for instance, the fact that SPV clients can query the mempool directly is of tremendous help
443 2014-06-20 11:44:55 <wumpus> sipa: but hearn describes that in his pull request
444 2014-06-20 11:45:09 <wumpus> I suppose that would go into the BIP as well
445 2014-06-20 11:45:16 <hearn> the alternative is, i'd basically have to pay for some server to do that myself. then not only would we not have decentralised wallets, but i'd need to find a way to raise the money to afford that, or pay for it out of my savings.
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447 2014-06-20 11:45:29 <hearn> and then we'd have to charge people to use SPV wallets because now the cost isn't being shared across the community any more
448 2014-06-20 11:45:30 <sipa> i still believe we should not encourage trusting behaviour on the global p2p network
449 2014-06-20 11:45:34 <hearn> and then how do you do that, with open source wallets?
450 2014-06-20 11:46:01 <GAit> donations or provide a service and charge for it?
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452 2014-06-20 11:46:15 <wumpus> sipa: but making something possible is not the same as encouraging
453 2014-06-20 11:46:25 <sipa> maybe
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455 2014-06-20 11:46:46 <sipa> but hiding it behind a private extension feels much cleaner
456 2014-06-20 11:46:56 <hearn> donations don't work. blockchain uses advertising and just hopes nobody forks them or people don't block the ads. but you know what, the model where a large community works out pretty well so far
457 2014-06-20 11:47:10 <hearn> sorry, where a large community donates together
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459 2014-06-20 11:47:38 <wumpus> sipa: I'd agree on that for expensive queries, you'd want to allow those for whitelisted (or whiteported) nodes only
460 2014-06-20 11:47:42 <hearn> sipa: did you get a chance to review my spv fee estimation proposal? it uses getutxo as-is today
461 2014-06-20 11:47:52 <hearn> sipa: in a way that's authenticated
462 2014-06-20 11:47:59 <sipa> hearn: not enough to comment on it
463 2014-06-20 11:48:36 <wumpus> sipa: but here it's the other way around, you want to protect the other node against getting possible lied information from you?
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465 2014-06-20 11:48:57 <wumpus> sipa: I don't see how authentication would fit in here, unless it would be the other way around (clients verifies server)
466 2014-06-20 11:49:07 HANTI is now known as hanti
467 2014-06-20 11:49:09 <wumpus> in that case, you can already decide as client who you query
468 2014-06-20 11:49:18 <sipa> wumpus: right, in a way
469 2014-06-20 11:49:22 <wumpus> although MiTM is possible
470 2014-06-20 11:49:46 <sipa> but it's also a service that we commit to provide on the network, making it harder to change implementation
471 2014-06-20 11:50:00 <wumpus> avoiding that would involve adding a MAC check to the bitcoin P2P packets going both ways, or signatiures...
472 2014-06-20 11:50:08 <hearn> mapping outpoint to output is pretty fundamental.
473 2014-06-20 11:50:22 <hearn> a bitcoin that doesn't do that is sufficiently star-trek we can jump that hurdle when we come to it
474 2014-06-20 11:50:22 <sipa> imho it just does not belong in what the network should provide, and i prefer being conservative there
475 2014-06-20 11:50:32 <wumpus> sipa: well it's behind a service bit -- a node can decide not to offer it
476 2014-06-20 11:50:57 <hearn> sipa: here's a question to ponder - what level of trustlessness would you require to be a part of the p2p protocol? does bloom filtering fit?
477 2014-06-20 11:51:01 <sipa> that's better, but doesn't really prevent the ecosysyem from growing to rely ob it
478 2014-06-20 11:51:02 <hearn> sipa: what about addr relay?
479 2014-06-20 11:51:12 <sipa> hearn: "to the extent possible"
480 2014-06-20 11:51:26 <wumpus> no, it doesn't, but it does allow getting rid of it if it really turns out to be a problem
481 2014-06-20 11:51:34 <petertodd> sipa: incentivising network-level sybil attacks is a concern - there seems to be some evidence that someone is sybil attacking either dice sites directly, or miners, to do zeroconf doublespends for instance
482 2014-06-20 11:51:48 <hearn> then surely getutxo qualifies - better is not possible with today's infrastructure or protocol. perhaps future protocol changes would allow better
483 2014-06-20 11:51:59 <wumpus> hearn: right
484 2014-06-20 11:52:04 <petertodd> wumpus: fwiw don't forget my point that if getutxos had privacy features, it'd discourage targetted attacks and maybe be safer
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486 2014-06-20 11:53:01 <hearn> for assurance contracts, the outputs being queried will appear together on the block chain in a single transaction when the contract completes anyway, so the privacy upgrade from having noisy queries here would be extremely small and short lived.
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488 2014-06-20 11:53:23 <wumpus> petertodd: sure, *if* someone would implement it with UTXO commitments, that would obviously be better
489 2014-06-20 11:53:40 <sipa> i'd put it the other way
490 2014-06-20 11:53:42 <petertodd> the privacy is for the moment when you query your peer for data
491 2014-06-20 11:54:12 <sipa> if we agree that utxo querying is a sufficentlynuseful network features, that should incentivize work on getting authenticayed utxo commitments
492 2014-06-20 11:54:29 <sipa> not just provide it in a way that ptovides no safety whatsoever
493 2014-06-20 11:54:37 <hearn> i think mark is already incentivised, seeing as he started work on it some time ago already
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495 2014-06-20 11:54:52 <sipa> yes, and i would love to see that work move forward
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498 2014-06-20 11:56:29 <hearn> by the way, i disagree that there's "no safety whatsoever". you're assuming a binary outcome: if something involves miners, it's secure, and if it doesn't, it isn't. i don't see it like that.
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501 2014-06-20 11:57:34 <hearn> but anyway, the path you want is I think quite problematic. it sends a powerful message to people - don't try adding stuff to the protocol, because if someone comes up with any idea for making it better, no matter how expensive or even if it would take years, then your proposal will be rejected. that's not how any successful project makes progress.
502 2014-06-20 11:57:41 <hearn> it simply ensures nobody will even take the first step
503 2014-06-20 11:58:28 <wumpus> right, nothing is ever perfect at first try
504 2014-06-20 11:58:47 <hearn> e.g. someone comes along and says, hey we could make this better with a zkSNARK, so your current approach is not acceptable. and they say, but I don't understand the PCP theorem. guess i should give up.
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506 2014-06-20 11:59:09 <petertodd> I simply can't agree with that. lots of changes have been made to bitcoin core changing policy, p2p network and otherwise with very little debate, e.g. my own patch to stop CHECKMULTISIG malleability
507 2014-06-20 11:59:17 <wumpus> what if Mark does all the work on UTXO commitments, would we merge that? or would it still not be safe enough?
508 2014-06-20 11:59:37 <sipa> there is a distinction between impmementation and theory here
509 2014-06-20 11:59:37 <wumpus> what if there is an even safer and more secure way
510 2014-06-20 11:59:39 <petertodd> wumpus: there would be debate over how it implies keeping a ever-growing UTXO set
511 2014-06-20 12:00:13 <sipa> wumpus: utxo commitmemts bring spv security to utxo queries
512 2014-06-20 12:00:15 <hearn> wumpus: i have not examined it closely enough to have much of an opinion. the idea seems sound but maaku told me he expected petertodd to oppose it, surprise, look what just happened.
513 2014-06-20 12:00:29 <hearn> wumpus: i think a lot of it would depend on the actual efficiency of the implementation, etc
514 2014-06-20 12:00:41 <hearn> + it means a fork and waiting for everyone to upgrade, etc
515 2014-06-20 12:00:50 <hearn> so hard to know what people would think, ahead of time
516 2014-06-20 12:00:54 <wumpus> hearn: right, it would be a difficult sell as well
517 2014-06-20 12:00:55 <sipa> if it works as intended (no bugs, ...), the security properties are perfectly clear
518 2014-06-20 12:01:11 <sipa> and so are the benefits under those security assumptions
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520 2014-06-20 12:01:40 <sipa> (bypassing full history check if you accept spv security up to some point in history, authenticated utxo queries, ...)
521 2014-06-20 12:02:01 <hearn> current SPV wallets don't have much use for UTXO commitments, as far as I can tell. though there may be use cases I haven't thought of. obviously for making getutxo answers more checkable that's useful, but most wallets don't need it
522 2014-06-20 12:02:37 <sipa> i think being able to bypass checking the entirely of history alone is sufficient reason for it; but that isy personal opinion
523 2014-06-20 12:02:37 <wumpus> but still you have to take those security properties into account when you design a solution on top of that, even though they are much stronger than hearn's current solution
524 2014-06-20 12:02:52 <petertodd> hearn: SPV would make more use of per-block TXO indexes I suspect to authenticate blockchain data queries
525 2014-06-20 12:03:24 <sipa> there are many ways in which bitcoin can work in the future
526 2014-06-20 12:03:37 <sipa> and it will depend both on demand as availability of technology
527 2014-06-20 12:04:33 <sipa> but abandoning even spv security just seems a step too far to me
528 2014-06-20 12:04:55 <hearn> what's being abandoned? you can't abandon something that doesn't currently exist.
529 2014-06-20 12:05:04 <sipa> as a principle
530 2014-06-20 12:05:31 <sipa> but you know my opinion, i won't agree about it anymore
531 2014-06-20 12:05:43 <petertodd> sipa: well, one ugly thing with UTXO commitments is that adding it is a soft-fork, but removing/modifying it is likely not going to be a soft-fork.
532 2014-06-20 12:06:03 <hearn> there was never any such principle! as wumpus pointed out, the protocol is full of things that have no authentication at all, just because they were useful or needed. the entire addr relay system is one example. bitcoin could operate like Tor but satoshi's code tries to avoid that, even though it's a big pile of heuristics and hacks
533 2014-06-20 12:06:04 <petertodd> sipa: makes getting a reasonable design right a good deal more important
534 2014-06-20 12:07:04 <hearn> generally things get better over time, but for example, bloom filtering weakened the security properties of SPV nodes in order to win us more performance and scalability. the first versions of bitcoinj downloaded full blocks and verified the entire merkle tree, then scanned.
535 2014-06-20 12:07:26 <petertodd> Bitcoin has very different properties than Tor and doesn't need to operate like it - the #1 difference being that the blockheaders provide strong detectability that you are being jammed, making authenticated addr relay much less important.
536 2014-06-20 12:07:29 <hearn> bloom moved filtering to the remote peer and allowed them to start lying through omission - a strictly weaker security model. but it had to be done, otherwise nobody would be using SPV wallets today at all
537 2014-06-20 12:07:44 <wumpus> but as sipa said it's indeed important to document what call/algorithm provides what level of security
538 2014-06-20 12:08:09 <hearn> documentation is certainly not an issue, now we have a developer guide things can be added there, and of course discussions in the defining BIP are useful too
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542 2014-06-20 12:11:10 <petertodd> people could have very easily been using SPV wallets with the electrum model of a trusted server for chain data backed up by multiple sources for block header information. (e.g. the unauthenticated p2p network) equally due to the nature of blockchain data, you're probably well off to back up electrum-style data queries with unauthenticated and (hopefully!) randomly chosen p2p peer queries
543 2014-06-20 12:12:06 <petertodd> note how the security is additive - again fundementally because your knowledge of the blockchain can only improve and conflicts are easily resolved by the best known chain mechanism
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547 2014-06-20 12:19:48 <hearn> luckily it has not been necessary. and that's important; bitcoin's purpose is to be decentralised. every time you say ....... well, what we've got seems to work, but better introduce a trusted third party again just in case, that undermines the purpose of the project. if it turns out based on practical experience that there's really no alternative, well, ok then we accept some degree of failure. but pre-emptively assuming it, would be wrong
548 2014-06-20 12:20:21 <hearn> at any rate, security/cost tradeoffs are subtle and people often come down at slightly different points on the spectrum. the purpose of competition is to let us explore these tradeoffs.
549 2014-06-20 12:21:27 <hearn> anyway, GAit sorry you wanted to talk about your bip
550 2014-06-20 12:21:48 <petertodd> as I said before, if this is going to be one of "competition" you can compete by releasing an experimental fork of Bitcoin Core and asking people to volunteer to run it. we can see if it offers features that people are sufficiently interested in and it saves us a lot of controversy
551 2014-06-20 12:22:45 <hearn> no, the best way is for Core to support this feature that costs nothing, and to let people use it if they want to. there is no need for a fork. it's not a dangerous feature.
552 2014-06-20 12:23:14 <hearn> ultimately the insecurity that may or may not result falls on the users of the message, not the nodes
553 2014-06-20 12:23:20 <GAit> Yeah, it has been brought to my attention that some people may want instant or nothing. I was wondering how to handle that. At first I thought I could use a zero amount but that has already a meaning in BIP70
554 2014-06-20 12:23:22 <GAit> "If the sum of outputs.amount is zero, the customer will be asked how much to pay"
555 2014-06-20 12:23:30 <hearn> GAit: how do you mean instant or nothing?
556 2014-06-20 12:23:31 <petertodd> it is dangerous to the ecosystem and incentivizes network attacks, but anyway, enough discussion
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558 2014-06-20 12:23:56 <hearn> GAit: you mean, they won't accept a payment unless it was signed by a TTP?
559 2014-06-20 12:24:03 <GAit> hearn: that the want to use bip70 + extention but only accept instant confirmation, so avoid having standard bip70 manage to actually pay.
560 2014-06-20 12:24:07 <GAit> hearn: yeah.
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562 2014-06-20 12:24:37 <hearn> er, that's not the bitcoin protocol anymore :) in that case i'd suggest defining a new protocol scheme and mime type so if your wallet doesn't support that, the clickable link doesn't work anymore
563 2014-06-20 12:24:47 <GAit> having zero outputs was suggested
564 2014-06-20 12:24:50 <GAit> yeah
565 2014-06-20 12:24:50 <hearn> effectively fork the protocol
566 2014-06-20 12:25:26 <GAit> even if forked I'd still like it to be simple to do if you already accept BIP70
567 2014-06-20 12:26:06 <hearn> sure, the message format itself can be the same. you would just need a new name and triggering mechanism. so the merchant wouldn't advertise that they accept bitcoin anymore, they'd say they accept payment via providers X Y and Z
568 2014-06-20 12:26:17 <hearn> and you could just have links for those providers directly, perhaps
569 2014-06-20 12:26:31 <GAit> like Bitcoin accepted via BitPay?
570 2014-06-20 12:27:27 <hearn> I think it's different. If I see a shop saying that they accept Bitcoin, it's irrelevant to me if they're using bitpay or not. the coins in my pocket will still work
571 2014-06-20 12:27:42 <hearn> if I see a shop saying they accept Bitcoin, and then they actually require that I use some TTP, then the coins in my pocket will not work
572 2014-06-20 12:27:58 <GAit> anyway I agree it should be explicitly incompatible in that case, too bad. Maybe it should just work with incentives, i.e. have an extra field with value interpreted as discount as you suggested
573 2014-06-20 12:28:10 <GAit> it is different, wrong example.
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576 2014-06-20 12:28:48 <hearn> the discount field means the system is somewhat adaptable, at least. if losses from fraud on the regular bitcoin network go down, the discount can go down too.
577 2014-06-20 12:28:50 <hearn> and vice-versa
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580 2014-06-20 12:29:14 <GAit> yep
581 2014-06-20 12:29:23 <GAit> but i am not yet convinced by multi signatures
582 2014-06-20 12:29:31 <hearn> by the way, one thing to consider is that if the recipient accepts the TTP's signature, the miners fee is useless at that point. the tx may as well be free.
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584 2014-06-20 12:29:55 <hearn> so the wallet does indeed need to know that their TTP will be accepted when it crafts the transaction
585 2014-06-20 12:30:11 JackH has joined
586 2014-06-20 12:31:29 <GAit> true but remeber that in our case we have to get the tx confirmed before the nlocktime expires, so we'll work on increasing fees to increase incentive as necessary
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588 2014-06-20 12:33:11 <GAit> we don't allow instant for outputs we know the user can double spend without a buffer of 1 day (144 blocks) but we may have to adjust this number
589 2014-06-20 12:33:34 imagegami has joined
590 2014-06-20 12:33:47 <hearn> presumably that means whether i get an instant approval or not depends on basically random stuff (from the users POV), like what order and when I received payments in
591 2014-06-20 12:34:23 <GAit> no, it's all explicit
592 2014-06-20 12:34:26 <GAit> by default no instant
593 2014-06-20 12:34:33 <GAit> by default no double spend prevention
594 2014-06-20 12:34:53 Aquent has joined
595 2014-06-20 12:35:07 <GAit> so for instance you can't do an instant unless your inputs have at least 6 confs and this number too is going to be adjusted depending on amount
596 2014-06-20 12:35:31 <hearn> from the users perspective, this will seem basically random
597 2014-06-20 12:35:51 <GAit> they get told that they have to wait if we find no inputs that satisfy instant
598 2014-06-20 12:36:08 <GAit> same with 0 conf, they can't spend it until it has 1 conf like bitcoin core
599 2014-06-20 12:36:45 <GAit> nothing is fixed in stone, i think the system will evolve and adapt to how the bitcoin world evolves
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609 2014-06-20 13:00:14 <JackH> what is the prefered linux build to run bitcoin on command line from? Ubuntu right?
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615 2014-06-20 13:14:15 <epscy> preferred by whom?
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618 2014-06-20 13:16:26 <JackH> the greater mass
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620 2014-06-20 13:16:43 <JackH> I opted in for ubuntu 13.10
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622 2014-06-20 13:16:47 <JackH> should do fine it seems
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625 2014-06-20 13:18:16 GAit_ is now known as GAit
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627 2014-06-20 13:20:19 <Guest43267> logistical problem: I have a multisig transaction that I have to safestore until I'm ready to sign and broadcast. Is there any facility in Bitcoin-Qt that would facilitate this? For example, could I stick it the mempool then retrieve and sign later?
628 2014-06-20 13:21:40 <shesek> Guest43267, no. just store it somewhere externally
629 2014-06-20 13:24:57 <Guest43267> release note: `sendrawtransaction`: report the reject code and reason, and make it possible to re-send transactions that are already in the mempool
630 2014-06-20 13:25:13 <Guest43267> how long does it remain in mempool after reject is received?
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633 2014-06-20 13:30:07 <petertodd> GAit: the thing with the miners fee is a good argument for signing these instant tx's with SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY btw
634 2014-06-20 13:31:11 Ostkaka has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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636 2014-06-20 13:32:54 <wumpus> Guest43267: it doesn't go into the mempool if rejected
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638 2014-06-20 13:33:53 <GAit> petertodd: true but wouldn't that be an issue with the change and the nlocktime tx?
639 2014-06-20 13:33:56 <petertodd> GAit: oh, and funny too: you're supporting replace-by-fee scorched-earth if you guys ever doublespend :P
640 2014-06-20 13:34:12 <petertodd> GAit: why/
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642 2014-06-20 13:34:48 <GAit> need to think about it a bit
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644 2014-06-20 13:36:33 <hearn_> what stops scorched earth policy just turning into every miner being bitundo
645 2014-06-20 13:36:34 <petertodd> so, the edge case with SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY is if you make two payments in a row to the same set of outputs. basically any miner can take both sets of signatures, combine them, and get a very high-fee transaction. ensuring change addrs are unique removes the concern.
646 2014-06-20 13:37:10 <GAit> petertodd: we already do that
647 2014-06-20 13:37:22 <GAit> i.e. change addr unique
648 2014-06-20 13:37:42 <petertodd> GAit: i know - basically the concern is just edge cases, for instance "app crashes", users restarts, and the same change addr is picked because it's the next unused one
649 2014-06-20 13:39:10 <petertodd> oh, and what's interesting about that is since nLockTime is signed, if it's, say, set to the current time you've reduced that edge case to a very, very, small probability with no special effort. (though doing that raises some ugly issues re: miner incentives)
650 2014-06-20 13:39:25 <GAit> that is unlikely with multisig given we keep track of indexes and we don't use gaps
651 2014-06-20 13:39:38 <petertodd> (well, i guess you could leave nSequence = max_int)
652 2014-06-20 13:39:57 <petertodd> GAit: no, that actually makes it more likely! basically you'll get the exact same transaction twice
653 2014-06-20 13:40:49 <GAit> we don't reuse addresses if the app crashes, so i don't get it sorry
654 2014-06-20 13:41:30 <petertodd> GAit: well, i guess my point is what's the mechanism that stops that? chances are you can conveive of some highly unlikely specific crash point where that would happen
655 2014-06-20 13:42:04 <GAit> i can think of users giving the same address out twice
656 2014-06-20 13:42:16 <petertodd> GAit: then you're probably fine
657 2014-06-20 13:42:45 <GAit> but just because i can't think of any doesn't mean i'm right
658 2014-06-20 13:42:54 <petertodd> yup!
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672 2014-06-20 13:55:50 <petertodd> curious, bc.i seems to index addresses in their database by the thing being hashed: https://blockchain.info/address/3J98t1WpEZ73CNmQviecrnyiWrnqRhWNLy
673 2014-06-20 13:56:24 <petertodd> see how all the transactions for 1HT7xU2Ngenf7D4yocz2SAcnNLW7rK8d4E appear on the same page? it's all Hash160('')
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695 2014-06-20 14:18:58 <dsnrk> petertodd: ha, good find!
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698 2014-06-20 14:20:29 <GAit> petertodd: oh, that's not going to confuse users </s>
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728 2014-06-20 15:00:26 <t7> !vote GAit for using sircasm tag
729 2014-06-20 15:00:27 <gribble> Error: "vote" is not a valid command.
730 2014-06-20 15:01:15 <GAit> is that good or bad?
731 2014-06-20 15:02:21 jaekwon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
732 2014-06-20 15:02:53 abossard has quit (Quit: abossard)
733 2014-06-20 15:04:16 <t7> i meant voteban
734 2014-06-20 15:04:35 <GAit> sounds bad
735 2014-06-20 15:04:36 samesong has joined
736 2014-06-20 15:04:43 <t7> shame on you
737 2014-06-20 15:05:01 <GAit> i'll stop doing it, didn't realize it was that bad at first!
738 2014-06-20 15:05:21 <michagogo> JackH: well, 13.10 EOLs next month
739 2014-06-20 15:05:28 <t7> I take it you are american
740 2014-06-20 15:05:37 <michagogo> JackH: consider upgrading to 14.04
741 2014-06-20 15:05:54 <GAit> t7 i am not american - i am a bitcoiner from EU :)
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745 2014-06-20 15:08:50 <JackH> yeah, 14.04 would be better you think?
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750 2014-06-20 15:11:38 ubuntuDoubts has joined
751 2014-06-20 15:11:44 <ubuntuDoubts> hi
752 2014-06-20 15:12:19 <michagogo> JackH: the only Ubuntus you should be using are 12.04 or 14.04
753 2014-06-20 15:12:30 <michagogo> (Well, as of next month)
754 2014-06-20 15:12:32 <ubuntuDoubts> does i need ever to get a git repository to compile something?
755 2014-06-20 15:12:34 <JackH> ok, I am good then
756 2014-06-20 15:12:45 <JackH> thx :)
757 2014-06-20 15:12:49 <ubuntuDoubts> Or i can create a folder clone a repository and change some files
758 2014-06-20 15:12:51 <ubuntuDoubts> and compile?
759 2014-06-20 15:13:01 <Belxjander> ubuntuDoubts: any "repository" is a storage mechanism with version tracking for source code
760 2014-06-20 15:13:12 <ubuntuDoubts> Cause im getting a fatal -error . it is cause i dont create a git and commit changes?
761 2014-06-20 15:13:20 <Belxjander> ubuntuDoubts: just check it out...make changes and build away
762 2014-06-20 15:13:29 <ubuntuDoubts> May I pm you?
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777 2014-06-20 15:26:04 <andytoshi> hi guys, when i send getdata to my node to get the first 500 blocks, the node sends them back to me, but my rust code only receives the first one followed by a message without a proper network header
778 2014-06-20 15:26:26 <andytoshi> i have a pretty boring "receive data, check magic, decode message, repeat" loop, is there something simple i might be missing?
779 2014-06-20 15:26:41 <petertodd> GAit, dsnrk: if i had more spare time, i'd bruteforce a collission to make a pubkey that also happens to be a valid redeemScript, which would make both addresses valid and spendable!
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794 2014-06-20 15:38:19 <dsnrk> petertodd: what would the result script look like?
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800 2014-06-20 15:48:45 <andytoshi> sorry, ignore me, i forgot a loop and was only listening for a single block
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811 2014-06-20 16:08:14 <petertodd> dsnrk: so, a valid pubkey has to start with 02, 03, or 04, which as a script encode 2 byte, 3 byte, or 4 byte pushdata's. easiest would be to just encode that pushdata, and then the rest of the scriptPubKey as another pushdata, which is a spendable scriptPubKey. that's just a few bytes to brute force, so pulling that off is feasible
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814 2014-06-20 16:10:27 <dsnrk> petertodd: yep, I follow. that's doable.
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827 2014-06-20 16:21:49 <jcorgan> ;;seen haltingstate
828 2014-06-20 16:21:50 <gribble> haltingstate was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 5 weeks, 2 days, 3 hours, 16 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <HaltingState> if i can communicate with them, obviously, i can just take their pubkey and send message like that and they can only read it if they know my private key or they know the private key for the pubkey and that proves to me that they have the private key; but if i took the (1 more message)
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830 2014-06-20 16:22:00 <HaltingState> ?
831 2014-06-20 16:22:15 <jcorgan> heh
832 2014-06-20 16:22:37 <jcorgan> just looking at your internal libsecp256k1 code, it is a few commits behind the sipa's repository
833 2014-06-20 16:22:45 <HaltingState> ya
834 2014-06-20 16:22:56 <HaltingState> i dont think he fixed any bugs so it should be fine
835 2014-06-20 16:23:27 <HaltingState> jcorgan, did you see this https://medium.com/@RKHilbertSpace/elminating-mining-pool-concentration-in-bitcoin-196d02bf2d81
836 2014-06-20 16:23:29 <jcorgan> yeah, the diff is pretty small, but just wondering if cgo could be coereced to link against an .so instead of having to compile
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838 2014-06-20 16:24:00 <jcorgan> i haven't, will read
839 2014-06-20 16:26:50 <jcorgan> bbiab, but want to follow up on the external vs. internal lib with cgo
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899 2014-06-20 17:35:09 <jcorgan> HaltingState: read through that briefly. no technical comments, but i'm suspicious of proposals that reduce everyone to solo mining. But that's not really a topic for -dev, but for -wizards.
900 2014-06-20 17:36:24 Emzy has joined
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902 2014-06-20 17:38:15 <jcorgan> otoh, i'm still interested to know that if i already have libsecp256k1 installed as a shared library, is there a way to have your go wrapper link to it instead of statically linking to the internal libs in the tree?
903 2014-06-20 17:39:18 viajero has quit (Quit: viajero)
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905 2014-06-20 17:40:53 <graingert> jcorgan: I think the static linking is used on purpose here for cryptographically validated binary builds
906 2014-06-20 17:41:27 <graingert> jcorgan: so everyone in the DEV team can simultaneously build bitcoin-qt and have the same binary every time
907 2014-06-20 17:41:31 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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917 2014-06-20 17:52:57 <jcorgan> i understand your point but i'm referring to the work that haltingstate did to wrap sipa's libsecp256k1 C++ library to be used as a module in a golang program
918 2014-06-20 17:52:58 sahlhoff has joined
919 2014-06-20 17:53:07 <jcorgan> not to the bitcoin binary stuff
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921 2014-06-20 17:53:48 <tresdf> hi folks when I try to run daemon via tor its kinda rejected - maybe tor ip was misused before?
922 2014-06-20 17:54:11 <dsnrk> tresdf: that shouldn't be a problem.
923 2014-06-20 17:54:51 <dsnrk> some nodes *might* have banned tor exit nodes, but I doubt all 8000 listening IPv4 peers have banned all Tor exits. HS don't ban other peers at all.
924 2014-06-20 17:55:00 Cryo has quit (Quit: Leaving)
925 2014-06-20 17:56:09 <tresdf> true
926 2014-06-20 17:56:24 <tresdf> maybe I have to recheck tor settings
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929 2014-06-20 17:57:52 <gmaxwell> it takes a while to get connected the first time via tor.
930 2014-06-20 17:58:20 robonerd has joined
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936 2014-06-20 18:06:55 <tresdf> gmaxwell: u are genius
937 2014-06-20 18:07:02 <tresdf> its connecting now
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953 2014-06-20 18:34:15 <ronkrt> i am looking for someone who would like to help engineer a x11 encoded sha-256 encoded scrypt encoded algor
954 2014-06-20 18:34:39 <maaku> ronkrt: OT
955 2014-06-20 18:35:00 wallet42 has joined
956 2014-06-20 18:35:15 <ronkrt> OT?
957 2014-06-20 18:35:44 <ronkrt> I'm working on a crypto cur that will come out with some big improvements to the current system, will also come out with a 1 to 1 local cur garuntee,
958 2014-06-20 18:35:56 <ronkrt> decentrilize the value of the coin and its even more decentrilized then bitcoin
959 2014-06-20 18:36:10 Grouver has joined
960 2014-06-20 18:36:19 zzyzx has joined
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962 2014-06-20 18:37:16 <ronkrt> and it wont be any of this 0.00000000000btc stuff, stright 0.00
963 2014-06-20 18:38:24 <gmaxwell> ronkrt: I'm glad you're enthusastic, but alternative systems are offtopic for this channelâ especially speculative ones. This channel is for production discussion related to bitcoin network and reference software.
964 2014-06-20 18:39:40 mrc_ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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980 2014-06-20 18:50:12 <t7> ronkrt: where can i fund your kickstarter?
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986 2014-06-20 18:56:22 <cfields> gmaxwell: i've never seen the performance argument for unsigned loop counters. I'm familiar with the usual pitfalls, but that one's new to me
987 2014-06-20 18:56:33 <cfields> gmaxwell: you've seen it make a real-world difference?
988 2014-06-20 18:58:19 jMyles has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
989 2014-06-20 18:59:12 tm4 has quit ()
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991 2014-06-20 18:59:45 <tm4> unsigned loop counters in what language?
992 2014-06-20 18:59:51 Zarutian has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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996 2014-06-20 19:03:00 <gmaxwell> cfields: oh absolutely, it breaks the autovectorior in gcc / clang fairly often.
997 2014-06-20 19:03:36 wyrag has joined
998 2014-06-20 19:03:41 <gmaxwell> e.g. in cases where the analysis would show the the loop either runs 16 times or forever.
999 2014-06-20 19:03:56 drdo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1000 2014-06-20 19:04:17 samesong has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
1001 2014-06-20 19:04:36 <tm4> sounds like the analyzer is broken...
1002 2014-06-20 19:05:10 drdo has joined
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1004 2014-06-20 19:06:01 <tm4> at the assembly level, there isn't much difference between a loop using an signed vs unsigned loop counter on the architectures I can think of offhand.
1005 2014-06-20 19:06:42 <cfields> gmaxwell: i see, i'm reading that bug right now
1006 2014-06-20 19:07:10 <gmaxwell> tm4: there is a big difference at the C levelâ signed counters may not overflow.
1007 2014-06-20 19:07:19 <cfields> gmaxwell: good to know. seems lots of cases that i would've assumed to be easily vectoriezed... haven't been
1008 2014-06-20 19:07:30 weilu has joined
1009 2014-06-20 19:07:37 <cfields> -e
1010 2014-06-20 19:07:40 <gmaxwell> yea, you can -ftree-vectorize-verbose=n in gcc and get reports.
1011 2014-06-20 19:08:21 Cryo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1012 2014-06-20 19:08:22 <gmaxwell> I suspect for a lot of what we do it doesn't matter muchâ in my DSP work it matters a lot, and it may matter in the crypto inner loops. If the only argument were the optimization one I wouldn't worry about it as a general matter.
1013 2014-06-20 19:08:23 <tm4> counters may overflow, but C doesn't care afaik.
1014 2014-06-20 19:09:14 <tm4> There's only one architecture I can think of that has instructions which trigger on overflow - MIPS has special signed instructions (ADDS, SUBS) that generate an exception on overflow, but nobody uses them.
1015 2014-06-20 19:09:14 <gmaxwell> tm4: overflow in signed types in C/C++ is undefined. If your software has a signed overflow your software is wrong and frequently will be miscompiled. The compiler is allowed to optimize assuming it never happens.
1016 2014-06-20 19:09:47 <gmaxwell> and so, for example, if value analysis observes some branch can only be taken if a signed value has previously overflowedâ the code is dead and will be removed.
1017 2014-06-20 19:09:52 <cfields> gmaxwell: sure.
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1021 2014-06-20 19:10:32 <gmaxwell> likewise, if values can only alias if there is a signed overflow, it will assume they don't and will emit code which is incorrect if the values alias, etc.
1022 2014-06-20 19:10:39 <tm4> how would you detect a signed value has previously overflowed?
1023 2014-06-20 19:11:24 <tm4> "values aliasing" sounds wrong. are you sure you don't mean "pointers aliasing" ?
1024 2014-06-20 19:11:27 <gmaxwell> You don't detect it, you never emit the code in the first place because static analysis proved that the condition could happens only if there were an overflow (which is by definition 'never' going to happen)
1025 2014-06-20 19:11:42 Zarutian has joined
1026 2014-06-20 19:11:56 <gmaxwell> tm4: I'm being casual with language, 'storage alaising' would be more pedantic.
1027 2014-06-20 19:12:09 <tm4> you mean pointers aliasing, really. ok.
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1029 2014-06-20 19:14:20 <tm4> The only language I can think of which seriously cares about values overflowing is Ada. It does trigger an exception on overflow iirc.
1030 2014-06-20 19:14:33 <tm4> erm, integers overflowing
1031 2014-06-20 19:15:33 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1032 2014-06-20 19:15:46 <gmaxwell> You're incorrect.
1033 2014-06-20 19:15:57 <gmaxwell> Go compile http://0bin.net/paste/CULfwymjCzNLTQox#AS/klVQguateWxknRArqpfUyclqIHZS2Vw99VVl0q90= with any remotely modern optimizing compiler.
1034 2014-06-20 19:16:10 <gmaxwell> You'll see the entire last branch is not emitted at all.
1035 2014-06-20 19:16:26 <gmaxwell> (along with the string and call to printf)
1036 2014-06-20 19:16:44 GAit has joined
1037 2014-06-20 19:17:20 <GAit> well maybe wait tomorrow
1038 2014-06-20 19:18:30 <tm4> what I meant by "seriously cares" is that it's treated as an error condition, as in trappable.
1039 2014-06-20 19:18:42 Aido_ is now known as Aido
1040 2014-06-20 19:20:05 <tm4> The example you gave is interesting. if the printf code is never emitted, it kinda looks like a compiler bug.
1041 2014-06-20 19:21:25 <gmaxwell> It's not. The overflow of signed types is defined to never happen in C. If your code can overflow a signed type at runtime your code is broken.
1042 2014-06-20 19:22:02 <andytoshi> tm4: you should say that in ##c :)
1043 2014-06-20 19:23:19 <tm4> at gcc -O I see the string in the assembly output
1044 2014-06-20 19:23:41 <tm4> at -O2 I don't see it.
1045 2014-06-20 19:24:01 <gmaxwell> (It's not implementation defined, it's undefined. The compiler is allowed by the language spec to insert an overflow check that calls system("rm -rf /") ... though usually they do not. ... if the compiler can prove that an overflow always happens in your main() even down at the bottom its valid for it to compile main to an empty stub though usually they don't.)
1046 2014-06-20 19:24:07 spinza has joined
1047 2014-06-20 19:24:55 <tm4> so which RTL pass is removing the code?
1048 2014-06-20 19:25:51 <gmaxwell> No clue, the knoweldge that signed won't overflow shows up in a bunch of places.
1049 2014-06-20 19:25:59 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1050 2014-06-20 19:26:04 <tm4> it looks like it's removed before the RTL generation, so maybe a tree pass.
1051 2014-06-20 19:26:08 <gmaxwell> Last time I did anything with gcc internals except report bugs was a decade ago.
1052 2014-06-20 19:26:15 <tm4> I'm more familiar with RTL than GIMPLE
1053 2014-06-20 19:27:11 <tm4> I haven't worked on gcc in about a year.
1054 2014-06-20 19:28:06 mapppum has joined
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1056 2014-06-20 19:29:08 <tm4> I see it in test.c.064t.mergephi2 but not in test.c.065t.vrp1.
1057 2014-06-20 19:29:20 <tm4> so it looks like it's optimized by the GIMPLE value range prop pass.
1058 2014-06-20 19:29:52 <tm4> This is with Ubuntu gcc 4.8.1
1059 2014-06-20 19:30:31 <gmaxwell> well as I said, anything should do it. being able to bound the range of signed values is pretty helpful from an optimization perspective.
1060 2014-06-20 19:31:16 <tm4> this code bothers me, though. it assumes negative numbers will not become positive when values are added to it.
1061 2014-06-20 19:31:27 <tm4> will look at it later...bbl
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1065 2014-06-20 19:33:10 <gmaxwell> It's correct. Change the example I gave to use an unsigned type (e.g. with a check on 0) and you'll see that it correctly concludes that it can wrap.
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1080 2014-06-20 20:00:40 <dgenr8> was there an issue or PR contemplating mempool persistence? Thought I saw it but can't seem to find it...
1081 2014-06-20 20:02:49 <mr_burdell> dgenr8: what about it? i have transactions up to a week or more old in my mempools
1082 2014-06-20 20:05:49 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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1085 2014-06-20 20:07:36 <dgenr8> sometimes it would be nice not to forget them on restart
1086 2014-06-20 20:07:55 <dsnrk> don't we do that already?
1087 2014-06-20 20:08:17 weilu has joined
1088 2014-06-20 20:08:32 <dsnrk> I thought mempool persistence was part of the floating fee stuff
1089 2014-06-20 20:09:15 <mr_burdell> oh, I see
1090 2014-06-20 20:09:22 <dgenr8> if so, where are they stored?
1091 2014-06-20 20:09:27 <dgenr8> mempool txes
1092 2014-06-20 20:09:28 <mr_burdell> no, mine drops tx after restart
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1095 2014-06-20 20:09:58 <dsnrk> could have sworn there was a mempool.dat file at some point
1096 2014-06-20 20:10:10 <dgenr8> i guess it was just a passing conversation I'm remembering
1097 2014-06-20 20:10:27 <mr_burdell> http://mempool.info is mine... so you can see there are tx as old as 4 days, which is when I last restarted that node
1098 2014-06-20 20:10:29 <dsnrk> no it was certainly a thing in the client, maybe a PR I was testing?
1099 2014-06-20 20:11:39 <mr_burdell> and it's running up to date 0.9.2
1100 2014-06-20 20:12:11 <mr_burdell> maybe a config option for it?
1101 2014-06-20 20:13:01 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1102 2014-06-20 20:14:47 <dgenr8> mr_burdell: welcome to my bookmarks ;)
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1104 2014-06-20 20:15:30 <lechuga_> dont think anything persists mempool
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1106 2014-06-20 20:16:49 <mr_burdell> also, is there a way to increase mempool capacity?
1107 2014-06-20 20:16:55 Emzy has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
1108 2014-06-20 20:16:57 <mr_burdell> or is there a limit on that?
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1113 2014-06-20 20:18:17 <lechuga_> no limit afaik
1114 2014-06-20 20:18:25 <sipa> mr_burdell: it's unlimited
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1116 2014-06-20 20:18:31 <lechuga_> theres a limit on how many orphan txs we'll hang onto
1117 2014-06-20 20:18:42 <mr_burdell> I thought it might be controlled by "maxblocksize", but I guess that's only if you're actually mining?
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1119 2014-06-20 20:18:52 <sipa> mr_burdell: indeed
1120 2014-06-20 20:19:02 <sipa> likely the mempool will be limited in size in the future
1121 2014-06-20 20:19:05 <mr_burdell> orphan? as in tx with unconfirmed inputs?
1122 2014-06-20 20:19:13 <mr_burdell> or if you don't even have the input?
1123 2014-06-20 20:19:14 <lechuga_> unknown inputs
1124 2014-06-20 20:20:08 <mr_burdell> hmmm... what does it do with unknown inputs? does it accept the tx?
1125 2014-06-20 20:20:18 <dsnrk> rejects.
1126 2014-06-20 20:20:24 <lechuga_> puts them in a bound holing area to see if the parents show up
1127 2014-06-20 20:20:29 <lechuga_> holding*
1128 2014-06-20 20:20:39 <mr_burdell> ok.. i need to check my scripts if it's doing anything with those
1129 2014-06-20 20:20:55 HM has joined
1130 2014-06-20 20:20:57 <dgenr8> mr_burdell: your removed page says it includes txes where a conflict was mined, but I don't see any...
1131 2014-06-20 20:21:22 <mr_burdell> the conflict would be in the blockchain
1132 2014-06-20 20:21:25 <jcorgan> sipa, is there a more intelligent way of discarding orphan txes other than "oldest arrival"
1133 2014-06-20 20:22:09 <mr_burdell> https://blockchain.info/tx-index/58829008 and http://mempool.info/tx/c98b4c7d72b7bda927588e7314290962b245030731ddae3ef67f728ecfafd9fc
1134 2014-06-20 20:22:14 <mr_burdell> those conflict
1135 2014-06-20 20:23:26 <dgenr8> mr_burdell: oh, i was looking for a special Tag value.. that one says LowFee. So the ones with Tag=blank were conflicts?
1136 2014-06-20 20:23:30 Maged has quit (Disconnected by services)
1137 2014-06-20 20:23:31 <mr_burdell> so the one in the removed page doesn't exist on blockchain because they didn't keep it
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1139 2014-06-20 20:23:58 Maged_ is now known as Maged
1140 2014-06-20 20:24:03 <mr_burdell> dgenr8: the tag doesn't have to do with if it was removed
1141 2014-06-20 20:24:18 <mr_burdell> that's just so you can easily see if there's anything special/weird about that transaction
1142 2014-06-20 20:24:44 <dgenr8> mr_burdell: ok. how far back do you have the removed txes?
1143 2014-06-20 20:24:50 wyrag has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1144 2014-06-20 20:24:55 <mr_burdell> if you scroll down on the front page, you can see that most of the tx that have been there for a while have low fees, no fees, or something else for a reason why they aren't being mined
1145 2014-06-20 20:25:10 <mr_burdell> about 2 weeks
1146 2014-06-20 20:25:23 eristisk has quit (Quit: killall -9 irc)
1147 2014-06-20 20:25:23 <mr_burdell> and the tags aren't updated as well if you go back too far
1148 2014-06-20 20:25:45 <mr_burdell> and tx fees are wrong before monday or so
1149 2014-06-20 20:26:28 shieye has joined
1150 2014-06-20 20:27:56 <mr_burdell> if you need the json for the transactions you can do http://mempool.info/rawtx/<hash> (plus my extra data like tag, fee, couchdb key)
1151 2014-06-20 20:28:43 mapppum has joined
1152 2014-06-20 20:32:39 <lechuga_> jcorgan: it's not an LRU, it's random eviction
1153 2014-06-20 20:33:16 mapppum has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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1156 2014-06-20 20:37:21 <lechuga_> seems like LRU would be better
1157 2014-06-20 20:37:49 <ubuntuDoubts> Good night.
1158 2014-06-20 20:38:01 <jcorgan> just based on time, LRU would evict the one least likely to get unorphaned
1159 2014-06-20 20:38:04 <ubuntuDoubts> there is anybody here able to explain me how do I create my genesis block ?
1160 2014-06-20 20:38:26 spinza has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1161 2014-06-20 20:38:33 <ubuntuDoubts> Im trying to create my own coin.. nothing for crypto world, but just for my self- knowledge.. anyone able to help me ?
1162 2014-06-20 20:38:52 <lechuga_> ur looking for #scamcoin-dev
1163 2014-06-20 20:39:02 ebfull has joined
1164 2014-06-20 20:39:15 <ubuntuDoubts> No im not.
1165 2014-06-20 20:40:16 <lechuga_> why don't you learn the protocol before creating a coin
1166 2014-06-20 20:40:43 <ubuntuDoubts> hum
1167 2014-06-20 20:40:47 <sipa> or programming
1168 2014-06-20 20:40:48 <ubuntuDoubts> may I pm u lechuga?
1169 2014-06-20 20:40:53 <ubuntuDoubts> sipa im php
1170 2014-06-20 20:40:56 <ubuntuDoubts> php prog
1171 2014-06-20 20:41:04 <sipa> learn real programming
1172 2014-06-20 20:41:07 <ubuntuDoubts> Im trying to learn more abiut crypto / some c++
1173 2014-06-20 20:41:08 <lechuga_> lol
1174 2014-06-20 20:41:27 <ubuntuDoubts> ok to all of you know waht you know today you doesnt ask same question i do?
1175 2014-06-20 20:41:35 <ubuntuDoubts> You born with knowledge already?
1176 2014-06-20 20:41:48 <ubuntuDoubts> Im just trying to know more and understand by me.. by trying
1177 2014-06-20 20:41:55 <sipa> by all means do
1178 2014-06-20 20:41:58 <sipa> but it will take time
1179 2014-06-20 20:42:05 <sipa> and just asking questions won't help
1180 2014-06-20 20:42:08 <ubuntuDoubts> As you have noticed im here since sunday trying to get my objective done..
1181 2014-06-20 20:42:14 <ubuntuDoubts> I know, but sipa
1182 2014-06-20 20:42:16 akstunt600 has joined
1183 2014-06-20 20:42:23 <ubuntuDoubts> last tuesday i was asking how to compile.
1184 2014-06-20 20:42:30 <kazcw> ubuntuDoubts: you're not going to learn by getting people to walk you through holding your hand the whole way
1185 2014-06-20 20:42:33 <ubuntuDoubts> Atm im asking other thing, compile i already know how to
1186 2014-06-20 20:42:37 <ubuntuDoubts> and already made sucessuful.
1187 2014-06-20 20:42:39 <sipa> please, not here
1188 2014-06-20 20:42:50 <ubuntuDoubts> sipa ok, i respect.
1189 2014-06-20 20:43:05 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1190 2014-06-20 20:43:09 <ubuntuDoubts> Could you tell me then where i will get some help ? or some people who like to share?
1191 2014-06-20 20:43:13 <sipa> if you have spent a few months programming in c++, and you understand how bitcoin works, and still have some questions about details, you'll be very welcome
1192 2014-06-20 20:43:21 <sipa> yes, read books
1193 2014-06-20 20:43:23 <sipa> exercise
1194 2014-06-20 20:43:31 <sipa> program examples
1195 2014-06-20 20:43:42 <GAitM> Play with gdb ;)
1196 2014-06-20 20:43:52 akstunt600 has joined
1197 2014-06-20 20:44:16 <gwillen> ubuntuDoubts: this is not an appropriate place to learn programming. Please go somewhere else. Do not PM people from this channel.
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1199 2014-06-20 20:44:46 spinza has joined
1200 2014-06-20 20:45:28 <ubuntuDoubts> sipa about reading, i try.. but there isn't good guides, or explanations about this matter.
1201 2014-06-20 20:45:45 <ubuntuDoubts> Thats why you watch me here sometimes.
1202 2014-06-20 20:45:52 <ubuntuDoubts> Ok i will respect everyone ..
1203 2014-06-20 20:45:55 <lechuga_> http://www.stroustrup.com/C++.html
1204 2014-06-20 20:45:56 <ubuntuDoubts> have a good night all.
1205 2014-06-20 20:46:00 <gwillen> Good night.
1206 2014-06-20 20:46:01 <lechuga_> start there
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1208 2014-06-20 20:49:33 GAit has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1209 2014-06-20 20:49:42 <equex> haha the stroustrup treatment
1210 2014-06-20 20:50:11 <lechuga_> *shrug* i was being genuine
1211 2014-06-20 20:50:26 <equex> here's a mouintain, heres a trout. take down the mountain.
1212 2014-06-20 20:50:55 GAit has joined
1213 2014-06-20 20:51:03 <equex> i agree though :D
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1216 2014-06-20 20:55:56 <GAit> bouncing some ideas re: instant, i would like to handle two main cases with bitcoin instant: instant accepted and instant required. The former can be the extention I proposed and perhaps as Mike said it can be in form of another set of outputs with different values, i.e. a discount. I think this sounds reasonable, at least as an option. For the latter I was considering a different BIP70 like protocol with different mime and incompatibl
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1220 2014-06-20 20:58:01 <mr_burdell> GAit: like bitcoin:address?amount=0.1&r=https://asdf&i=https://someotherlink
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1222 2014-06-20 20:58:28 <mr_burdell> and i would be the new instant required
1223 2014-06-20 21:00:15 <GAit> I am not sure I follow mr_burdell
1224 2014-06-20 21:00:17 <mr_burdell> or would you use a completely separate name like bitcoininstant:https://link
1225 2014-06-20 21:00:38 <mr_burdell> I'm talking about how the wallet would know given a URI link
1226 2014-06-20 21:00:46 <mr_burdell> before it even makes the request
1227 2014-06-20 21:01:01 <GAit> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0071.mediawiki these would be different
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1229 2014-06-20 21:01:38 <GAit> maybe some application/bitcoininstant-paymentrequest, or you get the idea
1230 2014-06-20 21:01:50 <mr_burdell> right... but how does the client know the different?
1231 2014-06-20 21:02:04 <GAit> that's the whole point
1232 2014-06-20 21:02:08 <mr_burdell> if it sees an r= parameter, it's supposed to use BIP70 paymentrequest
1233 2014-06-20 21:02:14 <GAit> you don't want someone to accidentally send you 'slow' bitcoin
1234 2014-06-20 21:02:19 <GAit> if you 'require' instant
1235 2014-06-20 21:02:22 <mr_burdell> so you would need a separate URI
1236 2014-06-20 21:02:30 <mr_burdell> like i=
1237 2014-06-20 21:02:36 <mr_burdell> or bitcoininstant:
1238 2014-06-20 21:02:41 <mr_burdell> which is what I was talking about
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1241 2014-06-20 21:04:39 <mr_burdell> your service isn't the payment processor though, right?
1242 2014-06-20 21:05:07 <GAit> perhaps yes but you could do backwards-incompatible bitcoin:?r=http.. without address and amount https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0072.mediawiki "then the bitcoin address portion of the URI may be omitted "
1243 2014-06-20 21:05:33 <mr_burdell> right... so you wouldn't put an address
1244 2014-06-20 21:05:51 <GAit> i am quite open to suggestions actually :)
1245 2014-06-20 21:06:02 <mr_burdell> so it would be bitcoin:?i=https://link
1246 2014-06-20 21:06:14 <mr_burdell> that way bip70 only compatible clients also ignore it
1247 2014-06-20 21:06:40 <mr_burdell> although they probably wouldn't give an error message either, so that wouldn't be good for usability
1248 2014-06-20 21:06:53 <GAit> yeah perhaps some ibitcoin: thing :(
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1252 2014-06-20 21:09:06 <GAit> as mike said in this case you are not accepting bitcoin but bitcoin via some list of explicit providers. I can see the use case but i don't really like this option.
1253 2014-06-20 21:09:13 <mr_burdell> can you set the outputs array to nothing?
1254 2014-06-20 21:09:24 <GAit> i can but is not within bip70 spec
1255 2014-06-20 21:09:34 <GAit> you can't have no output in the array
1256 2014-06-20 21:09:42 <GAit> you can imagine a buggy bip70 impl?
1257 2014-06-20 21:10:14 <mr_burdell> well, it could just assume outputs sum to 0 in that case
1258 2014-06-20 21:10:15 <GAit> i want to avoid any miserable experience
1259 2014-06-20 21:10:28 <GAit> that has a special meaning in BIP70
1260 2014-06-20 21:10:32 <mr_burdell> right
1261 2014-06-20 21:10:39 <GAit> it means user sets the amount i think
1262 2014-06-20 21:11:10 mrkent2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1263 2014-06-20 21:11:12 <GAit> let's set it to 22 millions BTC!!
1264 2014-06-20 21:11:14 <GAit> :P
1265 2014-06-20 21:11:18 mrc_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1267 2014-06-20 21:11:49 <GAit> i can already imagine some wallet realizing 22 are not in the wallet and setting the amount to the total in the wallet
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1271 2014-06-20 21:12:02 <mr_burdell> there's still so many unresolved issues about bip70
1272 2014-06-20 21:12:04 <mr_burdell> like this: Broadcast the transactions on the Bitcoin p2p network.
1273 2014-06-20 21:12:18 <GAit> i like that the merchant can broadcast it
1274 2014-06-20 21:12:24 <mr_burdell> last I heard, mike hearn was saying the client shouldn't do that, but the merchant should
1275 2014-06-20 21:12:33 <GAit> well that or maybe both
1276 2014-06-20 21:12:36 <mr_burdell> that's under the section for the client
1277 2014-06-20 21:12:52 <mr_burdell> i prefer for the client to do it
1278 2014-06-20 21:13:16 <GAit> why? that takes longer
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1280 2014-06-20 21:13:44 <GAit> if you meant that it should reach the merchant via mempool
1281 2014-06-20 21:13:45 <mr_burdell> because if they send to the merchant and the merchant says they don't accept it, that could give the users a false sense of security about the transaction
1282 2014-06-20 21:13:53 <mr_burdell> they could still broadcast it later
1283 2014-06-20 21:14:02 <mr_burdell> it should be both
1284 2014-06-20 21:14:10 <mr_burdell> mempool and payment message
1285 2014-06-20 21:16:54 debianto1user has joined
1286 2014-06-20 21:17:11 <Vinnie_win> Where in the bitcoin source do we compare the miner's proposed solution against the block's hash and difficulty?
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1319 2014-06-20 21:45:43 <andytoshi> Vinnie_win: main.cpp:2438 AcceptBlockHeader() checks that the block's stated difficulty is correct. main.cpp:1291 CheckProofOfWork() checks that the hash is correct for that difficulty
1320 2014-06-20 21:47:03 <andytoshi> here "stated difficulty" is the 'bits' field of the block, which is a 32-bit float representation of the target
1321 2014-06-20 21:49:53 spinza has joined
1322 2014-06-20 21:52:56 <tm4> ya, it's kind of a weird floating point format.
1323 2014-06-20 21:53:09 debianto1user has joined
1324 2014-06-20 21:53:12 <sipa> with well-defined rounding
1325 2014-06-20 21:53:14 AWeSomeAo has joined
1326 2014-06-20 21:53:40 <AWeSomeAo> I am trying to set up bitcoin-qt so it only communicates with tor nodes... is there any way to verify that? i.e. list all connected nodes?
1327 2014-06-20 21:53:48 <AWeSomeAo> wrong channel, sorry
1328 2014-06-20 21:53:56 <tm4> I guess it's because it's only intended for use as a mask.
1329 2014-06-20 21:54:18 <sipa> it has 21-23 bits of mantissa, which is more than enough
1330 2014-06-20 21:54:23 <sipa> we could do with 3 bits
1331 2014-06-20 21:55:23 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1332 2014-06-20 21:55:26 <andytoshi> it is defined (by example) at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Difficulty
1333 2014-06-20 21:55:40 <andytoshi> and the CheckProofOfWork() code also gives a definition
1334 2014-06-20 21:56:15 <tm4> pragmatically, it's specifying the number of leading zeros, so it sounds like you'd only need 8 bits really.
1335 2014-06-20 21:56:21 <cfields> sipa: whenever you can spare a few min, would you mind looking into hooking up libsecp256k1 -> travis ?
1336 2014-06-20 21:56:40 <sipa> cfields: i'm here
1337 2014-06-20 21:56:57 coinheavy has joined
1338 2014-06-20 21:57:16 <cfields> sipa: should just take a few clicks, but obviously a repo admin has to do it
1339 2014-06-20 21:57:25 spinza has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1340 2014-06-20 21:57:43 debianto1user has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1341 2014-06-20 21:57:44 <cfields> and obviously that repo admin needs to decide if it's in any way risky :)
1342 2014-06-20 21:58:46 <coinheavy> are all transactions on the blockchain cointaining any occurance of OP_RETURN in âscriptPubKeyâ[âasmâ] necessarily burned or are there ways that OP_RETURN could be present and the output remain spendable?
1343 2014-06-20 21:58:48 <sipa> ok, any documentation you can point me to?
1344 2014-06-20 21:58:57 <cfields> sipa: https://travis-ci.org/
1345 2014-06-20 21:59:04 <cfields> click sign-in with github
1346 2014-06-20 21:59:05 altoz has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1347 2014-06-20 21:59:05 <sipa> coinheavy: OP_RETURN by definition marks an output as unspendable
1348 2014-06-20 21:59:31 debianto1user has joined
1349 2014-06-20 21:59:38 <cfields> from there, iirc it redirects you to github to request api permissions
1350 2014-06-20 21:59:44 <sipa> coinheavy: if it appears at the start of the script at least
1351 2014-06-20 22:00:13 <coinheavy> sipa: so there are edge cases/alternatives if it is not the first op code?
1352 2014-06-20 22:00:23 <cfields> sipa: here are the docs on the requested api permissions: http://docs.travis-ci.com/user/github-oauth-scopes/
1353 2014-06-20 22:00:25 <kazcw> if op_return is within op_if it isn't necessarily executed
1354 2014-06-20 22:00:42 <coinheavy> kazcw: ah! that makes sense, thank you
1355 2014-06-20 22:01:33 <coinheavy> how about this as a simpler check for whether or not a transaction output is spendable â if there is no âaddressesâ field within âscriptPubKeyâ â is that a better check for spendable/unspendable?
1356 2014-06-20 22:02:01 <kazcw> no, that isn't reliable
1357 2014-06-20 22:02:10 <kazcw> an empty scriptpubkey is spendable by anyone
1358 2014-06-20 22:02:40 <sipa> coinheavy: addresses are simply shorthands for some often-occurring script types
1359 2014-06-20 22:02:52 <sipa> coinheavy: it's the script that matters; addresses do not exist at the protocol level
1360 2014-06-20 22:02:53 <coinheavy> hmm.. would the entire scriptpubkey hash have to be completely empty (no fields whatsoever) for it to be spendable by anyone?
1361 2014-06-20 22:03:12 <kazcw> I don't know what you mean by scriptpubkey hash or fields
1362 2014-06-20 22:03:14 <sipa> that statement makes no sense; a hash is a number; it has no "fields"
1363 2014-06-20 22:03:35 <coinheavy> oh sorry â Iâm thinking about it through the abstraction of viewing the data from a call to the daemon (rpc)
1364 2014-06-20 22:03:53 <sipa> rpc has even less to do with it
1365 2014-06-20 22:04:05 <sipa> spendability is probably the most essential consensus concet
1366 2014-06-20 22:04:48 <coinheavy> with a call to âbitcoind getrawtransaction <txid> 1â is there a shortcut to determining spendability without processing the entire script to check for OP_return resolution?
1367 2014-06-20 22:04:55 <sipa> no
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1370 2014-06-20 22:05:13 <coinheavy> roger that â thanks for the clarification
1371 2014-06-20 22:05:46 <sipa> you are maybe confusing spendability with the concept of "provably unspendable"
1372 2014-06-20 22:06:04 <sipa> as far as the protocol rules go, OP_RETURN outputs _are_ spendable, as they have not yet been spent
1373 2014-06-20 22:06:29 yubrew has joined
1374 2014-06-20 22:06:41 <sipa> however, because we know no script can possibly ever legally spend them, we bypass it in the database and mark them as unspendable anyway
1375 2014-06-20 22:07:07 <sipa> they are provably unspendable, but that is just a shortcut in the software
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1377 2014-06-20 22:07:33 <sipa> the protocol rules are much simpler: if you can construct a script to satisfy the rules in an unspent output's script, you can spend it
1378 2014-06-20 22:07:43 mrc_ has joined
1379 2014-06-20 22:07:54 <sipa> cfields: nothing is happening
1380 2014-06-20 22:08:03 <sipa> cfields: i think i may need to push a new commit
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1382 2014-06-20 22:08:30 <coinheavy> thanks for the distinction â that makes sense
1383 2014-06-20 22:08:37 <cfields> sipa: sec
1384 2014-06-20 22:09:45 <cfields> sipa: at the travis site, when you click on settings at the top-right, 'build pushes' and 'build pull-requests' are on?
1385 2014-06-20 22:09:49 weilu has joined
1386 2014-06-20 22:10:36 <sipa> i don't see any 'settings'
1387 2014-06-20 22:10:50 <cfields> it's the stupid gear thing that everyone uses these days :)
1388 2014-06-20 22:10:55 <sipa> Step 2: Adding Travis
1389 2014-06-20 22:10:56 <sipa> Once you've enabled one of your projects, add a .travis.yml to your project, push some code, and we'll start processing your builds.
1390 2014-06-20 22:11:06 <sipa> no gear thing
1391 2014-06-20 22:11:31 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1392 2014-06-20 22:11:35 <cfields> well, it exists at least...
1393 2014-06-20 22:11:49 <cfields> sec, i'll close one of my prs and open a new one
1394 2014-06-20 22:12:12 <sipa> already doing
1395 2014-06-20 22:12:16 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1396 2014-06-20 22:13:54 <sipa> done
1397 2014-06-20 22:13:59 <cfields> https://travis-ci.org/bitcoin/secp256k1/builds/28081844
1398 2014-06-20 22:14:00 <cfields> :)
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1400 2014-06-20 22:14:19 <cfields> thanks for hooking that up
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1404 2014-06-20 22:15:06 <cfields> crap, gtg.
1405 2014-06-20 22:15:09 <sipa> is that service free?
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1407 2014-06-20 22:15:27 <maaku> travis? yes
1408 2014-06-20 22:15:31 <maaku> very high quality too
1409 2014-06-20 22:15:37 <sipa> crazy
1410 2014-06-20 22:15:45 <maaku> free for open source
1411 2014-06-20 22:16:20 <jgarzik> nice
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1414 2014-06-20 22:18:15 <maaku> sipa: well, i'd say the same about github ;)
1415 2014-06-20 22:18:58 <sipa> true
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1441 2014-06-20 22:41:30 <jgarzik> sipa, thanks a bunch for the univalue review. The UniValue class definitely needs nit-picking on small details (like pass-by-const-ref)
1442 2014-06-20 22:42:14 <sipa> jgarzik: i've skipped the hard parts for now, but i like the simplicity :)
1443 2014-06-20 22:42:37 <sipa> and no objections to replacing jsonspirit with such a design
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1445 2014-06-20 22:43:57 <gmaxwell> I saw that code and was very happy.
1446 2014-06-20 22:44:23 <jgarzik> besides resource advantages (UniValue generated code much smaller than json-spirit), json-spirit forces us to use multiple classes (Array, Object, ..) when the underlying behavior is really more mutable than that.
1447 2014-06-20 22:44:33 <jgarzik> Also, UniValue stores numbers as string, a la sqlite.
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1449 2014-06-20 22:44:41 <jgarzik> Major ++ for us, IMO
1450 2014-06-20 22:45:01 <jgarzik> You can use built-in int conversions, or do your own
1451 2014-06-20 22:45:06 <jgarzik> no 64 bit limits
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1460 2014-06-20 22:51:12 <jgarzik> cfields, you are a C++ fan, right? You are encouraged to review^Wnitpick the UniValue class in #4332 also.
1461 2014-06-20 22:51:34 <sipa> it does not look very c++ish to me now :)
1462 2014-06-20 22:51:41 <jgarzik> heh
1463 2014-06-20 22:52:03 <sipa> though probably not too far from how i'd write it
1464 2014-06-20 22:52:18 <sipa> i have much more experience writing C parsing code than C++...
1465 2014-06-20 22:52:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: hashrate graph needs rescaling.
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1467 2014-06-20 22:53:04 <jgarzik> Oh, the parser? I hate every single parser written in C++ that I've ever seen ;-)
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1469 2014-06-20 22:53:38 <jgarzik> Overly-templated C++ parser stuff can be small, LOC-wise... and damned difficult to debug
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1471 2014-06-20 22:53:55 <jgarzik> This is likely to be faster and use less mem
1472 2014-06-20 22:54:33 <sipa> the only advantage to C++ style is less risk for out-of-bounds access
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1474 2014-06-20 22:54:42 <sipa> i'm not sure that's sufficient reason here
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1479 2014-06-20 22:57:10 <jgarzik> I do dislike this construct, though:
1480 2014-06-20 22:57:11 <jgarzik> + UniValue tmpVal(utyp);
1481 2014-06-20 22:57:11 <jgarzik> + UniValue *top = stack.back();
1482 2014-06-20 22:57:12 <jgarzik> + top->values.push_back(tmpVal);
1483 2014-06-20 22:57:12 <jgarzik> +
1484 2014-06-20 22:57:12 <jgarzik> + UniValue *newTop = &(top->values.back());
1485 2014-06-20 22:57:14 <jgarzik> + stack.push_back(newTop);
1486 2014-06-20 22:57:38 <sipa> you should have a look at the protobuf api
1487 2014-06-20 22:57:48 <jgarzik> ie. trying to get a pointer to the value, once it's inside the vector. But you must create intermediate value and copy
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1489 2014-06-20 22:58:29 <jgarzik> but hey, the end result is nicely RAII
1490 2014-06-20 22:59:13 <andytoshi> is there a reason that bitcoind sends me an inv containing only its most recent block, after i do the getblocks/inv/getdata dance to get the first 500 blocks?
1491 2014-06-20 22:59:27 Swadq has quit (Client Quit)
1492 2014-06-20 22:59:27 <andytoshi> can i rely on bitcoind doing this?
1493 2014-06-20 22:59:34 <jgarzik> andytoshi, yes. no.
1494 2014-06-20 23:00:04 <sipa> that behaviour is a hack that we should have deprecated a long time ago
1495 2014-06-20 23:00:20 <sipa> the server maintaining state about what the client is trying to do is so broken
1496 2014-06-20 23:00:20 <jgarzik> indeed
1497 2014-06-20 23:00:29 <sipa> and it has bitten us multiple times
1498 2014-06-20 23:00:36 <andytoshi> lol, ok
1499 2014-06-20 23:00:40 <sipa> (getheaders has no such magic behaviour!)
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1501 2014-06-20 23:00:49 <jgarzik> thank goodness
1502 2014-06-20 23:01:12 <andytoshi> can you give me a one-liner explanation of a good way to (re-)sync my SPV node?
1503 2014-06-20 23:01:26 <andytoshi> i can bumble through it but i'd rather not be hacky if i can avoid it..
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1505 2014-06-20 23:02:31 <sipa> use getheaders from the point where you currently are, receiver a bunch of headers, all of which must pass PoW check, and may lead to a new tip
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1507 2014-06-20 23:02:46 <sipa> after processing the headers, send a new getheaders, from your potential new tip
1508 2014-06-20 23:02:52 <sipa> if the tip didn't change, stop
1509 2014-06-20 23:03:38 <andytoshi> cool. how can i detect if there was a reorg behind where i currently am?
1510 2014-06-20 23:03:58 <sipa> wait, you're implementing an SPV client?
1511 2014-06-20 23:04:07 <andytoshi> yeah, in rust
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1513 2014-06-20 23:04:44 <andytoshi> mostly to learn, also so i have a base to implement the implementable ideas that drift by -wizards
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1515 2014-06-20 23:04:57 <sipa> if the new best tip of the tree after PoW validation is not a direct descendant of the old tip
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1517 2014-06-20 23:05:59 <andytoshi> oh, i thought getheaders would make that always true because it would return only the descendants of the old tip
1518 2014-06-20 23:06:32 <sipa> no
1519 2014-06-20 23:06:55 <sipa> it will return whatever is on the path to the best tip according to the peer
1520 2014-06-20 23:07:03 <sipa> starting from the point that you tell it
1521 2014-06-20 23:07:11 <sipa> but you give a CBlockLocator, not a single hash
1522 2014-06-20 23:07:14 <sipa> so it can go back
1523 2014-06-20 23:08:01 <andytoshi> ah, i gotcha. thx a ton
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1529 2014-06-20 23:13:22 <sipa> jgarzik: random (and hardly thought-through) API suggestion (based on experience with protobufs), have a UniValue& UniValue::AddMutableKV(const string& key) method, which returns a reference to the newly created value (which is initialized to Null)
1530 2014-06-20 23:13:52 <sipa> jgarzik: that requires stable pointers in the implementation (which you currently don't have), but it's so much cleaner to build structures and avoids constant copying around
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1546 2014-06-20 23:36:28 <dsnrk> petertodd: is this the error message you were seeing on your replace fee nodes? I've now got them spread through my logs on standard nodes
1547 2014-06-20 23:36:33 <dsnrk> petertodd: ProcessMessages(ping, 0 bytes) : Exception 'CDataStream::read() : end of data' caught, normally caused by a message being shorter than its stated length
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1549 2014-06-20 23:37:23 <sipa> seems like a peer not implementing bip 31 correctly
1550 2014-06-20 23:39:01 <dsnrk> seems like a good assumption. my testnet node is seeing bad pings quite regularly
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1554 2014-06-20 23:41:03 <dsnrk> /testnetnodescrawler:x.x/ /BQS:0.0.1/ /btcwire:0.1.4/btcd:0.8.0/
1555 2014-06-20 23:41:16 <dsnrk> I have a horrible feeling it's the middle one, and that I know who developed it
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1561 2014-06-20 23:47:43 <dsnrk> hm, nope. must be one of the ones claiming to be Satoshi. "satoshi" is the new "mozilla" by the looks of it.
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